From nobody Wed Apr 1 21:41:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A07B3A0C3B; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 21:40:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org, Russ Housley , housley@vigilsec.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.123.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <158580245320.30709.4157426327571587321@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 21:40:53 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Martin Duke's No Objection on draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 04:40:55 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Though dense, this was readable by someone with no background in the subject. Only one nit: in section 3, s/identifier/identifier. From nobody Mon Apr 6 08:48:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018213A0AFA; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:47:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org, Russ Housley , housley@vigilsec.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.124.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <158618806942.5681.4343774779142060918@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 08:47:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 15:47:50 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please respond to the Gen-ART review. From nobody Mon Apr 6 08:48:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B51D3A0B22; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cooperw.in header.b=panDmaNd; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=tQ0Q427M Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKYy-9oHAkJ1; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 388ED3A0B39; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42395932; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Apr 2020 11:48:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=L RsY884BHjEMm7P2wIcFlxCAyYjjseiRl1a5J47Y3CU=; b=panDmaNd/Oza68+E5 3/ixj+adzeCuzKCVKR8uiRit1j5HiMbZlxJOC9fJZiRX4GpId5KH6lm/Ig0zGyTl 7n+Gb9sxYOapNjdzXBszaXHDLbU0S2ar1+54IrDY/IBLzDn7FP654EODhgGm8VDu /1qrYYny4i1boLKbWhOnbqy1cqAqdM6Z+iyeKrUDMAV2KeumK0moys5J8670RDWU QpZ/NeVj9XJH15w0kMiyQlKzJg9jmGmeNGQ6TARdxlp1L65449LHTpto2IBZ8kvV tsXaX4UwFlKMw+3WjqAyXEcjuzxBTkWMSMitCtpiYVNBEE+IJp14YJW7CmO+lQrP cg2mw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=LRsY884BHjEMm7P2wIcFlxCAyYjjseiRl1a5J47Y3 CU=; b=tQ0Q427MdGAg8YQCLWQfwH1Vd8dPNIxlCYAXqOs/KGeGYA4fvwrvMrAQO 7aM1/25kARhTEKwGFfMsnwu41aQMjVOO4tzeX2A4gGD8+Kbabu1U+Dhqn5ckt98/ D4rsY4BXFQ0BwxnZ6K/wazoF4KnUZkDLWFNhpxkjsCY4BSuRTjbjYqZAUPfE4B52 f4ejk9brL7LEii3ZGBPh8RWHeRoea7IbiL+OqZdiZRUa7lrAujrz/790kV+mAZWB gdgG6CHtV8cgzGJByuVwTR/RGaWPirm5zmK8gtv3CR1Ku0qOquwccpG2F7ZNlzB7 ve/k6NdAaf/fuirjcsFoKeBBWfZvw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrudefgdekiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeetlhhishhs rgcuvehoohhpvghruceorghlihhsshgrsegtohhophgvrhifrdhinheqnecuffhomhgrih hnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucfkphepuddtkedrhedurddutddurdelkeenucevlhhushht vghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrlhhishhsrgestghooh hpvghrfidrihhn X-ME-Proxy: Received: from alcoop-m-c46z.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-101-98.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.101.98]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5C618306D470; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.5\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <157863541224.17236.16527868532167283650@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:48:14 -0400 Cc: gen-art@ietf.org, draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert.all@ietf.org, last-call@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0E6863D7-5477-4B7B-A315-D8F67F2A3154@cooperw.in> References: <157863541224.17236.16527868532167283650@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Pete Resnick X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] [Gen-art] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-07 X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 15:48:25 -0000 Pete, thanks for your review. I entered a No Objection ballot. Alissa > On Jan 10, 2020, at 12:50 AM, Pete Resnick via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review result: Ready with Nits >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area > Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed > by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just > like any other last call comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Note that while this is labeled a Last Call review, this review comes = well > after the Last Call completed. However, the author and AD felt it = would be > useful anyway since the document has not yet been updated for Last = Call > comments. >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-07 > Reviewer: Pete Resnick > Review Date: 2020-01-09 > IETF LC End Date: 2019-12-02 > IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >=20 > Summary: Ready with Nits >=20 > While I found the document (and particularly section 4) very = technically dense, > I think the detail will help implementers tremendously. Nothing other = than a > few editorial issues. >=20 > Major issues: None >=20 > Minor issues: None >=20 > Nits/editorial comments: >=20 > Section 3, paragraph 1: >=20 > Note = that > a new PASSporT is only necessary when the canonical form of the > "dest" identifier (per the canonicalization procedures in [RFC8224] > Section 8) changes due to this retargeting. If the canonical form = of > the "dest" identifiier is not changed during retargeting, then a new > PASSporT with a "div" claim MUST NOT be produced. >=20 > Seems to me that these two sentences should be in their own paragraph. = It took > me a second to figure out that the following sentence was not related = to these. >=20 > Section 4: >=20 > ...Other using protocols of PASSporT >=20 > Don't you mean "Other protocols using PASSporT"? >=20 > Section 4.2, paragraph 2: >=20 > I think you mean "necessarily", not "necessary" >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Gen-art mailing list > Gen-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gen-art From nobody Mon Apr 6 09:15:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45A63A0C18 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:14:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iIi0jeGLH8Jw for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C17D3A0C40 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 036GEkvr033389 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:14:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1586189686; bh=1V7lfAHpWiQCN42RAG/krpiFF16ugYjL6el78aF7AAk=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=kPTlOuzMwS2OX/N1bf6/UnMt48evQlUZnRQnJB+kbiqT8bXBEIvu7o29OyaAda4GX OBjakHvANeVuAkrBqOUzZq49HPm7IAc5D8uUo5m9F95g6Hi57vGAwvcMHr7zm/8W2C qy9eHD3fKhcj6oG2YweoIyEPcq9M6mhWj/RxdAkA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: "stir@ietf.org" From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <4d4b31db-c30a-2460-ab70-aa96d3834877@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:14:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Webex coordinates for 20Apr STIR interim meeting X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 16:14:53 -0000 STIR Interim Hosted by STIR Working Group Monday, Apr 20, 2020 10:30 am | 1 hour | (UTC-04:00) Eastern Time (US & Canada) Meeting number: 615 202 966 Password: Z8Pvb4hzEv2 https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mfa4505ef982e1d02dfa6692a57b40905 Join by video system Dial 615202966@ietf.webex.com You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. Join by phone 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) Access code: 615 202 966 From nobody Mon Apr 6 09:20:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B181F3A0C79; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:19:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: stir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.124.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158618998961.5697.9467700374419510661@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 09:19:49 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Secure Telephone Identity Revisited (stir) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-04-20 CHANGED X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 16:19:50 -0000 MEETING DETAILS HAVE CHANGED. SEE LATEST DETAILS BELOW. The Secure Telephone Identity Revisited (stir) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-04-20 from 14:30 to 15:30 UTC. Agenda: STIR WG Agenda for Virtual IETF 107 0) Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets 1) Agenda Bash 2) Active WG documents -- draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd (Chris) -- draft-ietf-stir-rph-emergency-services (Martin) 3) Updates on document in WG LC -- draft-ietf-stir-cert-delegation (Jon) 4) Updates on post-WG LC documents -- draft-ietf-stir-oob (EKR and Jon) -- draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert (Jon) 5) Any Other Business (if time allows) -- draft-burger-stir-iana-cert (Eric) -- draft-rosen-stir-emergency-calls (Brian) -- draft-peterson-stir-servprovider-oob (Jon) 6) Wrap Up Information about remote participation: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=mfa4505ef982e1d02dfa6692a57b40905 From nobody Mon Apr 6 19:38:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E833A138A; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 19:38:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org, Russ Housley , housley@vigilsec.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.124.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <158622713120.32418.423904575544203411@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 19:38:51 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Barry Leiba's No Objection on draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 02:38:52 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for a well-written document, Jon. From nobody Tue Apr 7 12:35:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACF33A0FE7; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org, Russ Housley , housley@vigilsec.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.124.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <158628812675.31223.5976532284560812662@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 12:35:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 19:35:27 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 5. The text notes that procedures for the authentication and verification service for the “div-o” claim will be “left to future work”. Can the rational for this deferral be explained. Creating an interoperable solution without this guidance seem challenging as it would be crucial guidance on processing this newly introduced claim. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Please respond to Phillip Hallam-Baker SECDIR review (thanks Phillip!) ** Section 4.1. Per “Provided that these PASSporTs share the same "orig" and "dest" values, the retargeting entity's authentication service SHOULD generate only one "div" PASSporT”, why not MUST here? What’s the corner case? ** Section 4.2. Per “However, note that in some use cases, including certain ways that blind transfer is implemented, it is possible that an established call will be retargeted long after it has originally been placed, and verification services may want to allow a longer window for the freshness of the innermost PASSporT if the call is transferred from a trusted party.”, are there any recommendations or bounds that can be placed on the duration of this “longer window of freshness”? ** Editorial Nit: -- Section 3. Typo. s/identifiier/identifier/ From nobody Tue Apr 7 13:54:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912783A1238; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org, Russ Housley , housley@vigilsec.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.124.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <158629284778.13900.16643796031182034257@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 13:54:08 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 20:54:09 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-08: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I support Roman's Discuss. Isn't there a straightforward translation of the "div" procedures to the nested "div-o" chain? Why would that not be applicable? I had two other points for discussion: (1) IANA seems unhappy (the expert review identified issues). What's the plan to address them? (2) The following text from the Security Considerations seems inconsistent to me: However, including this information about forwarding is at the discretion of the retargeting entity, so if there is a requirement to keep the original called number confidential, no PASSporT should be created for that retargeting - the only consequence will be that downstream entities will be unable to correlate an incoming call with the original PASSporT without access to some prior knowledge of the policies that could have caused the retargeting. I don't understand this -- if the idea is to keep the original called number confidential, wouldn't this necessitate *not giving the original PASSporT to the called entity*, since the original PASSporT includes the original call destination? Without the original PASSporT at all, of course it can't be correlated to an incoming call... (Even in the OOB case, would the post-retargeting called entity even be able to retrieve/decrypt the original PASSporT?) Is this intended to only apply to some non-SIP case? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- While it looks like the main change in the -08 is intended to address the secdir reviewer's comment, it would be nice to respond to the review and mention the new text. Do we need to say something about whitespace being added to examples for readability? Section 1 Is there an intended mnemonic for the "opt" element? ("Original passport"?) Do "div-o" PASSporTs necessarily carry both "div" and "opt", or is "opt" intended to be able to stand alone in a "div-o" PASSporT? Section 3 canonical form of the "dest" identifiier is not changed during nit: s/identifiier/identifier/ A "div" PASSporT claims set is populated with elements drawn from the PASSporT(s) received for a call by the retargeting entity: at a high When would there be multiple received PASSporTs that all are input to the same "div" PASSporT? Also, the later discussion that indicates only a small number of claims/extensions are copied from the original PASSporT (and that "iat" might change!) suggests that perhaps the "is populated with" language could be tweaked. level, the original identifier for the called party in the "dest" object will become the "div" claim in the new PASSporT. If the This "will become" language seems a bit problematic when combined with the definition in Section 8 of an "hi" element within the "div" claim, which is not part of the "original identifier for the called party". The combined full form PASSporT (with a signature covered by the ES256 keys given in Appendix A) would look as follows: eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsInBwdCI6ImRpdiIsInR5cCI6InBhc3Nwb3J0IiwieDV1Ij \ oiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZXhhbXBsZS5jb20vY2VydC5jZXIifQ.eyJkZXN0Ijp7InRuI \ jpbIjEyMTU1NTUxMjE0Il19LCJkaXYiOnsidG4iOiIxMjE1NTU1NTEyMTMifSwiaWF \ 0IjoxNDQzMjA4MzQ1LCJvcmlnIjp7InRuIjoiMTIxNTU1NTEyMTIifX0.xBHWipDEE \ J8a6TsdX6xUXAnblsFiGUiAxwLiv0HLC9IICj6eG9jQd6WzeSSjHRBwxmChHhVIiMT \ SqIlk3yCNkg (The decoded claims set is sorted, though the previous display-form example was in a different order.) Section 4 This section specifies SIP-specific usage for the "div" PASSporT type and its handling in the SIP Identity header field "ppt" parameter value. Other protocols using PASSporT may define behavior specific to their use of the "div" claim. Is the last line supposed to be "claim" or "PASSporT type"? Section 4.1 The retargeting entity SHOULD act as a verification service and validate the existing Identity header field value(s) in the request before proceeding; in some high-volume environments, it may instead put that burden of validating the chain entirely on the terminating verification service. As the authentication service will be adding a Is this intended to be the only allowed exception to the SHOULD? (Can we phrase it as a MUST instead, e.g., "except when it is know that the terminating verification service will do so, the retargeting entity MUST act as a verification service"?) PASSporT. Note that this effectively creates multiple chains of "div" PASSporTs in a single request, which complicates the procedures that need to be performed at verification services. [ponders whether there should be more security considerations about these added complications] not for "div" PASSporTs with earlier targets. Ordinarily, the current target will be readily identifiable, as it will be in the last "div" PASSporT in each chain, and in SIP cases it will correspond to the Request-URI received by the retargeting entity. Moreover, the current target will be an identifier that the retargeting entity possess a credential to sign for, which may not be true for earlier targets. Ultimately, on each retargeting, the number of PASSporTs added to a request will be equal to the number of non-"div" PASSporTs that do not share the same "orig" and "dest" object values. We seem to be providing two or three descriptions of the number of new "div" PASSporTs to be created, and it's hard to have full confidence that all are guaranteed to produce identical results. Is it possible to clarify a single definitive procedure? Section 4.2 In order to validate a SIP request using the "div" PASSporT type, a verification service needs to inspect all of the valid Identity header field values associated with a request, as an Identity header field value containing "div" necessarily refers to an earlier PASSporT already in the message. [...] (refers to one or more earlier PASSporT, no?) Deployments that change the original To header field value to conceal the original destination of the call from the ultimate recipient should note that the original destination of a call may be preserved in the innermost PASSporT. [...] Should this also be noted in the security considerations? Section 5 This specification defines a "div-o" PASSporT type that uses the "div" claim element in conjunction with the opt (Section 6) PASSporT claim element. As is the case with "div" PASSporT type, a "div-o" nit: any reason why we refer to "div" as a "claim element" but "opt" (with no quotes!) as a "PASSporT claim element"? Section 6 The presence of an original PASSporT claims set element, designated as "opt", signifies that a PASSporT encapsulates another entire PASSporT within it, typically a PASSporT that was transformed in some way to create the current PASSporT. Relying parties may need to consult the encapsulated PASSporT in order to validate the identity of a caller. "opt" as defined in this specification may be used by future PASSporT extensions as well as in conjunction with "div-o". All the more reason for this document to specify the "div-o" usage's validation procedures! Section 7 an impractical number of combinations. But in very complex call routing scenarios, attestation of source identity would only add limited value anyway. I'm not sure what point this last sentence is trying to make. "Yes this is complicated, but no one would do it anyway"? That doesn't really support the case for retargeting over redirecting... STIR-aware SIP intermediaries that redirect requests MAY therefore convey one or more PASSporTs in the backwards direction within Identity header fields. These redirecting entities will act as authentication services for "div" as described in Section 4.1. This document consequently updates [RFC8224] to permit carrying Identity header fields in SIP 300-class responses. It is left to the originating user agent to determine which Identity header fields should be copied from the 3xx into any new requests resulting from the redirection, if any: use of these Identity header fields by entities receiving a 3xx response is OPTIONAL. Is the idea that making this use optional obviates any need for a negotiation mechanism where the originating user agent indicates support for receiving PASSporTs in the 300-class response? Section 10.1.2 Claim Description: Encapsulated JSON token Is it an encapsulated "JSON token" or "PASSporT [JSON Web Token]"? Section 11 However, as there may be unforeseen circumstances where the revelation of service logic to the called party poses a privacy risk, implementers and users of this or similar diversion-tracking techniques should understand the trade-off. Don't the 300-class redirections also involve some revelation of information to the calling party? I think that could be worth mentioning (though it's not specific to the PASSporT case). Furthermore, it is a general privacy risk of identity mechanisms overall that they do not interface well with anonymization services; the interaction of STIR with anonymization services is detailed in [RFC8224] Section 11. Any forwarding services that acts as an anonymizing proxy may not be able to provide a secure chain of retargeting due to the obfuscation of the originating identity. Isn't there also a risk that an anonymizing proxy might not know to remove all the (information contained in the) PASSporTs, thus inadvertently leaking identity information? Section 12 risk arises at the discretion of the retargeting domain: simply using 3xx response redirections rather than retargeting (with supply a "div" per Section 7) mitigates the potential impact. Under unusual nit: grammar is weird around "with supply a 'div'" Appendix A Thanks for including the keys needed to validate the examples! (Alas, I don't have a JWT or JOSE library handy, so I didn't do so...) From nobody Wed Apr 8 09:12:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBDD3A0F79 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:12:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MhJkYKOL1qhm for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1D733A0F78 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E2D300ADC for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:12:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 95AQd4rf8V_e for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-72-66-113-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net [72.66.113.56]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8081B3004C0; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.14\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:12:12 -0400 Cc: IETF STIR Mail List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5CEC45AE-866E-46FF-84A3-0CB04140BED7@vigilsec.com> References: To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.14) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] WGLC: draft-ietf-stir-cert-delegation-02 X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 16:12:18 -0000 Major Concern: Section 7 says: The ordering MUST conform to the AKID/SKID order chain encoded in the certs themselves. First, this is talking about a certification path in the terms of RFC = 5280. Second, AKID/SKID order is nor defined anywhere to my knowledge. So, it = needed to be defined here. Minor Concern: Section 5: s/should be validated/SHOULD be validated/ Section 8: Please add a reference for "CP/CPS". Section 9 says: 'and a "ca" boolean set to "true"'. It would be better = to say something like: 'the cA boolean set to "true" in the basic = constraints certificate extension [RFC5280]' Nits: Section 4.1: s/[RFC8226] Section 10.1/Section 10.1 of [RFC8226]/ Section 4.1: s/[RFC8226] TNAuthList/TNAuthList specified in [RFC8226]/ Section 5: s/certificate in turn has its own parent/certificate has a = parent/ Section 5: s/entire certificate path/entire certification path/ Section 5: s/entire certificate chain/entire certification path/ Section 6: s/path construction/certification path construction/ Section 6: s/own chains/own certification path/ Section 6: s/certificate chain/certification path/ Section 7: s/certificate chains/certification paths/ Section 7: s/chains are already/certification paths are already/ Section 8: s/certificate chain/certification path/ Section 9 says: Specification of a TLS subcerts analog for STIR is deferred here to future work, at such a time as market players require it. I suggest: Specification of a mechanism similar to TLS subcerts for STIR is future work, and it will be undertaken only if market players require it. > On Mar 11, 2020, at 12:11 PM, Robert Sparks = wrote: >=20 > This is a Working Group Last Call for = draft-ietf-stir-cert-delegation-02 >=20 > Please send your comments to the list or the chairs by Wed Apr 1. = (This LC is three weeks because of the proximity to the IETF 107 week). >=20 > RjS >=20 > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From nobody Sun Apr 19 09:08:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778473A0C96 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sam2WXTX-Xuo for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19FBC3A0C93 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id u6so7229893ljl.6 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:08:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+shF+WouPHS3m5nseE1XAxPfUQP4Xe3+jR5i3sCL2UQ=; b=PtDV/smg1LifPbff0UkAiBSlNjbQlDAO6AoZ93hJtyURTF9ZWFqpZjmizMiyQKje0s 711x013s6bfGlh/Siha2QXQthext9GFta9Zhz6IvJW6E9uphOyPBnMD+FnasIl/IaeD4 MTHVQ9mTw1N1+hzOj/icEr7Alpik9hRWGjSZZoUClGBkTMDnOfbzeaMTBAFQufKvZXAS 0BmicM/FTN3mOkCphxSembauczv55SPm8eOgnEBW2VL+G8GCbIXUZgq64c+hn3E1EmJU MpkiGQohH+wRMieQ+ZCBZ/2hfdGTobqnuumQpBPN1MgMOfq44bH2vxdLz3/w2GXYwxFN qFaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+shF+WouPHS3m5nseE1XAxPfUQP4Xe3+jR5i3sCL2UQ=; b=BDdUhN8qLR1/4fQhJwE6TPMSflgq6pJ3gBCDSTDjtpYR3PBG5XXv5+kcORNapw7LrO CiLYM7TevIwIz+lMTjVp0MOITvru+5rbLzWZoPguZFA2xFqcjxy5PZOBVLmQl+up9FDh r5hWhdXkW4UUREHeh8nii5yY9cCzVz+jLcLcaeLWtjEwN416WPpA0YtM6CQ5PcsQUmK6 klMFZHUi/YYFu3XtD4yyWGbZsSVehMvSALVtYprTID1huDFFWAIPfKxugLL7oYh9DCbl SIwQVDr1TvfeDYZa0/KF18je1J0Nun40RnvcBlisLRZ/sxJiJvf+4g13UfsH9GIW+TfE URSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYyI2J95PIKEo4g0BnauWBKZ7ARzTjNzmrQHBNi6jLFfXXD6Cou v7K9j4eX9/HDutlKZACogPqZsoR7unrsDFPeSVc8Vg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIaZ10gQXGFdHCnOkGhKQe7BsRmUO75qHSMSuI724MlACrd50ckZSVxVlQB4995lMKRUyxrNjrzWeYAvji/gxg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:164e:: with SMTP id 14mr7079224ljw.253.1587312506980; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:08:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gift Asuquo Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:08:13 +0100 Message-ID: To: stir@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000204d8505a3a6fe94" Archived-At: Subject: [stir] (no subject) X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 16:08:31 -0000 --000000000000204d8505a3a6fe94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't understand this mail --000000000000204d8505a3a6fe94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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--000000000000204d8505a3a6fe94-- From nobody Mon Apr 20 08:43:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B135B3A0A20 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:43:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.178 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.178 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2itg_K1I7jx for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C79583A09F5 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03KFeePt073587 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:40:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1587397242; bh=fLozOy09/2X+ZLrOcpL+u8qPhMmsl5la2E4bsDpM7Bg=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=XQOd4a7CsQGI6fFwktm5sMVDN6vW0w3bNc6e9R5BkrUGejU6bIDljuwzHuN8aBJ7v BRSGZ7vdm0K/1uyPQkvWby9ECbnp5BgJdTif92UXM1fYEG+7CHN5HZCMH1WBovdLTj o3u+YMk4xdCLvD6aD+FyGdEU35UWpx61aNd/jKv0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: "stir@ietf.org" From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:40:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4C4D1F150AA8CF3141BDE9D7" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] DRAFT minutes for STIR 2020-04-20 Interim X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:43:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4C4D1F150AA8CF3141BDE9D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to Russ for the notes. The bluesheet section is not yet complete - people were having problems with the etherpad. If you were present and haven't already let me know by email, please do so ASAP. ------ STIR - Interim meeting - 2020-04-20 Notes ----- Jon Peterson (Neustar) gave an update on the Out-of-Band document (draft-ietf-stir-oob) and the PASSporT Divert document (draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert).  The Out-of-Band document is with the RFC Editor, and PASSporT Divert got some DISCUSS positions from the IESG that need to be resolved.  The main concern is about “div-o” hiding the original called number by not including a “div” PASSporT.  The “div-o” text needs to be fleshed out a bit more, which would require the document to come back to the STIR WG.  The current thought it to explicitly state that “opt” is for “Original PASSporT”. Martin Dolly (AT&T) gave an update on the Assertion Values for a Resource Priority Header Claim in Support of Emergency Services Networks dcoument (draft-ietf-stir-rph-emergency-services).  References are needed for “SOS” addressing, “anonymous”, and “Unregistered UE”.  Expect that the document will be ready for WG Last Call in July. Jon Peterson (Neustar) talked about the Rich Call Data PASSporT extension document (draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd).  Major update was to include a “crn” claim that corresponds to a “reason” or string representing the intent for a call.  This concept is also discussed in draft-wendt-sipcore-callinfo-rcd, which says “this message SHOULD be no longer than ten words.”  String is the primary format, but an extensible format allows flexibility. Coordination with SIPCORE is needed before this document reaches WG Last Call. Eric Burger (Georgetown University) talked about an IANA registry for country-specific STIR Trust Anchors (draft-burger-stir-iana-cert).  Concerns were expressed during IETF 101 that IANA would need to be an arbiter of who gets to put records in registry, but since then Burger realized that it does not matter. In real life, illegal robocall mitigation is all about reputation and statistics. We know there will be calls that have no attestation that are just fine, and we know there will be call that will have the highest levels of attestation that are illegal robocalls.  STIR increases the confidence in the identifying the caller, which can be used to allow, warn, or block the call.  Not expecting IANA to figure out who is the responsible organization, including delegation, for making or updating a registration.  Rather, IANA would confirm valid cryptographic identities.  Te re are not privacy concerns since the entries are associated with governments.  The suggestion is a “First Come First Served” registry. BlueSheet --------- Robert Sparks - AMS Russ Housley - Vigil Security, LLC Subir Das - Perspecta Labs Jon Peterson - Neustar Murray Kucherawy - Facebook Ken Carlberg - FCC David Frankel - ZipDX Andrew Hutton - Atos Jack Rickard - Metaswitch Ben Campbell - Independent Andy Gallant Brian Rosen Eric Burger - Georgetown University Alissa Cooper  - Cisco Wilhelm Wimmreuter - InCharge Systems Inc Martin Dolly - AT&T --------------4C4D1F150AA8CF3141BDE9D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Thanks to Russ for the notes.

The bluesheet section is not yet complete - people were having problems with the etherpad. If you were present and haven't already let me know by email, please do so ASAP.

------

STIR - Interim meeting - 2020-04-20

Notes
-----

Jon Peterson (Neustar) gave an update on the Out-of-Band document (draft-ietf-stir-oob) and the PASSporT Divert document (draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert).  The Out-of-Band document is with the RFC Editor, and PASSporT Divert got some DISCUSS positions from the IESG that need to be resolved.  The main concern is about “div-o” hiding the original called number by not including a “div” PASSporT.  The “div-o” text needs to be fleshed out a bit more, which would require the document to come back to the STIR WG.  The current thought it to explicitly state that “opt” is for “Original PASSporT”.

Martin Dolly (AT&T) gave an update on the Assertion Values for a Resource Priority Header Claim in Support of Emergency Services Networks dcoument (draft-ietf-stir-rph-emergency-services).  References are needed for “SOS” addressing, “anonymous”, and “Unregistered UE”.  Expect that the document will be ready for WG Last Call in July.

Jon Peterson (Neustar) talked about the Rich Call Data PASSporT extension document (draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd).  Major update was to include a “crn” claim that corresponds to a “reason” or string representing the intent for a call.  This concept is also discussed in draft-wendt-sipcore-callinfo-rcd, which says “this message SHOULD be no longer than ten words.”  String is the primary format, but an extensible format allows flexibility.  Coordination with SIPCORE is needed before this document reaches WG Last Call.

Eric Burger (Georgetown University) talked about an IANA registry for country-specific STIR Trust Anchors (draft-burger-stir-iana-cert).  Concerns were expressed during IETF 101 that IANA would need to be an arbiter of who gets to put records in registry, but since then Burger realized that it does not matter. In real life, illegal robocall mitigation is all about reputation and statistics. We know there will be calls that have no attestation that are just fine, and we know there will be call that will have the highest levels of attestation that are illegal robocalls.  STIR increases the confidence in the identifying the caller, which can be used to allow, warn, or block the call.  Not expecting IANA to figure out who is the responsible organization, including delegation, for making or updating a registration.  Rather, IANA would confirm valid cryptographic identities.  Te re are not privacy concerns since the entries are associated with governments.  The suggestion is a “First Come First Served” registry.


BlueSheet
---------
Robert Sparks - AMS
Russ Housley - Vigil Security, LLC
Subir Das - Perspecta Labs
Jon Peterson - Neustar
Murray Kucherawy - Facebook
Ken Carlberg - FCC
David Frankel - ZipDX
Andrew Hutton - Atos
Jack Rickard - Metaswitch
Ben Campbell - Independent
Andy Gallant
Brian Rosen
Eric Burger - Georgetown University
Alissa Cooper  - Cisco
Wilhelm Wimmreuter - InCharge Systems Inc
Martin Dolly - AT&T

--------------4C4D1F150AA8CF3141BDE9D7-- From nobody Mon Apr 20 10:27:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B1B3A0D90 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:26:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.212 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.212 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=standardstrack.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dBE79rj9Dz4N for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from se3b-lax1.servconfig.com (se3b-lax1.servconfig.com [192.249.122.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F073A094F for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biz221.inmotionhosting.com ([192.145.239.201]) by se3-lax1.servconfig.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQaA4-00158P-JR for stir@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:24:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=standardstrack.com; s=default; h=To:Date:Message-Id:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:From:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=VrTtW8wc5ENev5gyIb2W48CrfU/1DlFhS619PbYnWS4=; b=Bd+haB/xtm/pG0OOEcXfhbtEGg eg46OzrSzDykFeAzmE/i4bKnjvZQOUiTjpnB5uK56BJHcwIfYOwN65onN8auByTbAfWBOxn0YvmC/ hQQ5tXk25OlSrmkj2nX4+8gibhZW4CsikmhvYm0Gl0gzHHguEqlVhwmoquxWRttlgawU=; Received: from [68.100.101.142] (port=50898 helo=[192.168.10.31]) by biz221.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1jQa9t-000ZGm-FY for stir@ietf.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 10:24:38 -0700 From: Eric Burger Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BE591C79-1665-4403-BAAD-1CAAFC5AD6EB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:24:36 -0400 To: stir@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: eburger+standardstrack.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: eburger@standardstrack.com X-Originating-IP: 192.145.239.201 X-SpamExperts-Domain: biz221.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 192.145.239.201 Authentication-Results: servconfig.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=192.145.239.201@biz221.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.23) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0c6d8zDasFm/nDPEg7mmhmypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhV80FebxDGQ3hk KC7NGwmQWUTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGD+8X2eAtGOeP0Z7XEw4vpH7gN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fuY98JE9j0uSuXxPJTdyPN5U7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD3473Y3lsYPr3virg95 tZ609xdKJaSO6x9h2WTFfkPgGUz1Sq2swcqdmOMtvfhrEkAbG/8vT6Pv5EmK9Y3QKXNOxPMnUiya RmA46OGY+YsgOdbd3VAnSZlBxACg67tWDDh3WMpOFwbgZzA7SHJpgzfyrZMpuUU9pQmhp2NdRojj VXAB3i4EXXSueZzMCpX2tfOqKM5soQ0R2jS4GxDcxPFGC79DsyPhMEwz2OC3hXjXYvpwQy17Ychx ni5a2VYVYiL6p0zFIS4eFFedtqTPxkQeRTMManwrT2CVoVKwL3beb5/7R86t2EiC6GwMws7Gvvoz wOxTyssp4L0plUGigax8zy4LpVxP5YFZg5fgueXLf6LKHDJ71JSXKkUqfqsTqwEEUOidX4Ts4xdG +C13IyWeZaKeZonfhSS5rkKZop8UxONQt/RjRaooN74bt/9RkI3xQgdb9bovQJYN4df8tBGzfisF VVikJYXKyGo2lFnLPaHwOuqJPPu/Mw4caI9hNjB7gP3QzxUBjDlIxq/CY6GWA8+LBDMrD7q/cJog wbqzsuoksATD6B4YJw/xkJTvi2DZT2gxaUBTIJceeww0VXdyJ0ndbXSgkufh1ojus/5BUx9USFs8 QJ1HZ0YgjVUEghT1aTwJWw42swm4bO6gacpMpzJJAaQB6RGfbERqROM6OR63chyvPJpL6DooRBPw XkYc1RNWLRL0zEKCV1rC6yEoKMXwY8LwTJ3glwd29LcBySVMm98OiyQ6+7o3FFiI0zRNn0gvzxVp TGvrZrKdIxaZrH3oREI39Ng7w+jWwVgutjGnuuve+J5DMBKo4X0ih5QNkGE9sb8xJz7YLbS4YH6b pqcEiBscwRdrth+1+oWTDTjsecoU4vapvCGSUh6RXSeW2w== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se1-lax1.servconfig.com Archived-At: Subject: [stir] stir-certs-01: Expert Review? X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:27:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BE591C79-1665-4403-BAAD-1CAAFC5AD6EB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I heard two broad schools of thought on expert review. One theory is = that since making determinations of who is authorized to update = registrations is fraught with unsolvable Layer-9 issues, and since IANA = is ill equipped to solve unsolvable Layer-9 issues, that IANA should = take an extreme hands-off position and register anything that comes = their way that meets the =E2=80=9Cidentify the registrant=E2=80=9D = criteria specified in the draft. The other theory is that IANA can pass = off requests to an expert that can triage registrations that would pass = the =E2=80=9Cidentify the registrant=E2=80=9D criteria yet be obviously = bogus. E.g., 10,000 registrations come in at once from the same place = registering things that have a globally accepted, well-known authority, = and it would be obvious the registrant does not have those authorities. = However, we would =E2=80=9Cknow it when we see it=E2=80=9D and stay = clear of the many jurisdictions where various governments, some UN = recognized and others not, lay claim to a particular resource. In those = instances, as laid out in the draft, we could have multiple = registrations and not have IANA get into the Layer-9 (Layer-10, as now = we=E2=80=99re talking governments of governments?) unsolvable problem. Opinions? I did hear Alyssa say that if we lay out easy to follow, = clear, uncontroversial steps, IANA can cleanly execute them. 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charset=utf-8 One would expect trust anchors to remove old entries, but there is no = guarantee. Russ asked if IANA could purge expired trust anchors from the = registry. It=E2=80=99s not straightforward, although possible. The current draft says, =E2=80=9CIANA SHOULD remove a STIR trust anchor = from the registry if the certificate expires." Options I see: 1. Leave this as a SHOULD and IANA works it out when and if they work it = out. 2. Make it a MUST and specify how IANA does the purge. 3. ??? TO DO =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Put in a mechanism for removing / updating entries. Proposal: = whomever (domain) put in the entry can delete or modify the entry. 2. Add language that registry users are URGED (VERY STRONG MAY) to = validate the trust anchor, like making sure the trust anchor has not = expired. --Apple-Mail=_EADD6162-B061-428C-86BA-752469497BB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEfEc/N7T7IfiAuDEHDDCGh758rskFAl6d3H0ACgkQDDCGh758 rskecxAAg+3nHcxWCNiQ19mdua0OIWsN7SMaRQoD4Q5IYlK7hd2yf4mdixmIInt4 tS19ch3WP2facox1rdlN+cG6SdvKAipWKfhZeOmTG5IpAj2WrGqckAiB8WNmvpVu Rks/8EfSgcAT34QCb7azPCXUQwCDyEETVjSs1aHo/xnhvCWEMd/9Em2Cr4hAhVSG VnEjSCGu8PQ6rjpAkw66SzM7AwdCloo2p3TA/h+OB8M01tJjv9fr/ROHSWTbOXkQ r8z1ZZgAm5KmzRaTp+ol5goU4/1IUxhKjjvXqqXgl9vTdOW23hf03Yoy4CHc8Tjs LP78qfrnTzDnLB0cMvtMliAYrSNceigRDRZ2Uc3kNBI7XRC6K1upzu49kYV86bKH K14hwt3D0bKH+nJxE+Adu5KxCDUDj86oOlXHD0ITXXLd2KoMKwUu+idkmpgckvML 7HEK5ewbVdYBqTRBeSobfyZhLMYxE0OMnY1+YyCPZo0uUIff1HSVUVle9bisSdPJ M7vlxyr9buWRFGNhSgGIQbVhgeqUbV2huFWha4aomDDqmKYJDJPd1jNSETSYpZ0r WP9wDZbH+Hd56twj1HCsIf9VV0t8P7rPmuUMsSRUihqRGY4P+a1p7GwbvHtKbM3K IMie9zsNZP87zTyNeWgaZM5n3xSfMU5qb3Mbkw9zZPdMXk4Aol0= =Fh/j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EADD6162-B061-428C-86BA-752469497BB4-- From nobody Mon Apr 20 12:47:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9283A0E45 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkyZi6EPluxB for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D84D13A0E49 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id x2so9684713qtr.0 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bUzXjztXXO+aQPod/QLqNtDg2sSilaVf/Wp+ibNalns=; b=jKwJgP+bkUdXMIvT94Vn6PtxruzWXB80J4gtidEr8BacH60FZh1fy0W6RJKHjprGhK jdT75sFniWiKixX9/H0DN7F2UmdQThRiHXubtHCQLVd8nH2ilcc7HaZfjL/xMBF0hyPO AqEDg/buV9UiOw48i50Aj3ySXwctoBQ3gu15k7Pmx/5dBM5o7y8gyvhckM7zlKiy+OBn d4haWmqToyX+ce08UHSOdPgL3P3bdhrf1/ab9ADeeEZKrb/rCab3XyIFfs0Apjn+vBVK 2/i/j05Il/ZGJc0cE98O+gVj6Z4sjTF7RDYQTI3OPfrPBMy/MI2i/mEzcz907a4FwU2T ByGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bUzXjztXXO+aQPod/QLqNtDg2sSilaVf/Wp+ibNalns=; b=cyZHp3unKpRV4WF5tytw89c76Ig2QMKgmrFZuEd0OHwqCg9ZPvB53YcFcPrdcrz9y4 6u2KF1BgTN8nPZ9CCJ2p1umSLSvtz5lWDUa/xL6fsF7jBP0ULR3I/VkX3bquwP0BpbFF GQxIDQtz5W1oDgRJ7xDXrt+MsVUUA7hrnkMJnik4wbY4r4BUJecY2cym52oZXa2j9sTI FepitZU9xsTDQFF1PEmqBTkElFUML9p6lqW+BEw1Wh2d/TQhhpykIqVxzI37XH0ld4Bc 1wTNhmxaZtLZYgTgigpns4YMB5xEq3WJkG5GCFawfxSjWcss+Ojp4CpNJNIYgjn0p1B3 eoKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZAZQY63K11oIbfEa9G3m/stvhggQYPVb6pYk3ad1lMw9hZOQ1W /S50prfZ45IzCL9nyhBXAUlbdYzsD5g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKI/Kqpr9V2lgHnAYXQ9beARiBCZpMY+KZH0ojY6lfpMMcH47b5FHL4ApgkAbaVYrn3F2RoXg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:678c:: with SMTP id b12mr18072989qtp.375.1587412013799; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brians-mbp-2871.lan ([72.23.94.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d26sm351332qkk.69.2020.04.20.12.46.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Brian Rosen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:46:51 -0400 Cc: stir@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <60A0873B-CF40-4641-BDFC-8F068D276CA9@brianrosen.net> References: To: Eric Burger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] stir-certs-01: Expert Review? X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:47:07 -0000 Generally, I think we have to decide if a registry is actually = needed/helpful and then decide what the management policy is. I really do think that the folks running verification will be able to = easily determine who is authoritative for a given prefix, and thus the = registry has only marginal value. There is some value, so the question = is whether the grief of running it exceeds the value. I think it=E2=80=99s pretty clear that if it vexes IANA, then it=E2=80=99s= not worth it. However, I=E2=80=99m fairly optimistic an expert, equipped with =E2=80=9Cw= hen in doubt, allow it=E2=80=9D guidance, can do what is needed, and = then perhaps the utility is more than the grief, assuming we have = experts who will agree to serve. On the other, other hand, if we get into a tussle with ITU or anyone = else over running a registry, then I=E2=80=99d drop the registry in a = heart beat - not enough value to spend much time on. Brian > On Apr 20, 2020, at 1:24 PM, Eric Burger = wrote: >=20 > I heard two broad schools of thought on expert review. One theory is = that since making determinations of who is authorized to update = registrations is fraught with unsolvable Layer-9 issues, and since IANA = is ill equipped to solve unsolvable Layer-9 issues, that IANA should = take an extreme hands-off position and register anything that comes = their way that meets the =E2=80=9Cidentify the registrant=E2=80=9D = criteria specified in the draft. The other theory is that IANA can pass = off requests to an expert that can triage registrations that would pass = the =E2=80=9Cidentify the registrant=E2=80=9D criteria yet be obviously = bogus. E.g., 10,000 registrations come in at once from the same place = registering things that have a globally accepted, well-known authority, = and it would be obvious the registrant does not have those authorities. = However, we would =E2=80=9Cknow it when we see it=E2=80=9D and stay = clear of the many jurisdictions where various governments, some UN = recognized and others not, lay claim to a particular resource. In those = instances, as laid out in the draft, we could have multiple = registrations and not have IANA get into the Layer-9 (Layer-10, as now = we=E2=80=99re talking governments of governments?) unsolvable problem. >=20 > Opinions? I did hear Alyssa say that if we lay out easy to follow, = clear, uncontroversial steps, IANA can cleanly execute them. So, if = you=E2=80=99ve got an algorithm, put it forth now. > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From nobody Mon Apr 20 12:54:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FB63A0E0F for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=brianrosen-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dz694125EJiH for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FD873A0E7A for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id l25so12135096qkk.3 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brianrosen-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BcCr2nhCs2S1N/bXf8Zp4Osmbq7uje7a4P9sPmOr1K4=; b=JX13r6RwG2OL8FkqiIyQLoKrTjghh1ngIV3ofV0Va96OCzUD+PiDAw65lTmTmyoHxU 82Yv9K4Ed4Mx7NaWNg3za8pqwa5nDyLWggCTeyS5LtRWnD8wYrCCbWXos3mw3WwhBHKp O3bx8uTuDsI1RV+R4mZXt/W/7JJ9OU54rd5QKjhI1M7JAr8FgBh/P/zaa7Y0V+YCA3sE zV2a9w6FoVHbTUP3Q3L4vwMjWx2CGqmbs9h8QWvnjI98GV1a5yeQO8kGwesFWzUWoR6v fiXnHf/fX8vA8+QEFEsQJXgMOyn4voNF4U4gVdXNLKLybG/GEjCgCrKgXDb9sPp5XP46 M/4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=BcCr2nhCs2S1N/bXf8Zp4Osmbq7uje7a4P9sPmOr1K4=; b=BSSY1kTxc3jkfW+mmQTOCMO2n3dSn1osBmmbg8inT2poEbdEFY3Ul+mvdMRIWa2gXz l0yPJt6WgJ4Pi8QtEfs61WXfPim6cb9zQc6e+8ROrEt5pRdC6BJEA0cUqAmYGFR9IxjJ J37E8GCffnUo23NDwpByVIqLE5yx5Uk2+VOJgQ8itra6jWWgo6Z5KtWseLERqG1GUC1l lES31JsgT2DwDV9WOt/5XojvVVRZtmD2fsruJnCNKPa9N7g7rTny8YIAhpPWStQKiZ1b J4imf+OF3zcVDSme25ifAQk15q/RmRY9EnvyWD71fzZnLe2etWvWgGNWWHiL1kmyMX2L PH2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuamykC/Omw+8rRlrPzmEXJrIq0eFs+5l2fYrfsvIe6E8t5qFw9x rDOrL2NHJizUlra4qH5LfthKwadXlJo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKSBdu6jSVJZv5bx1CP8CaO1C6uiAcGqERwMVVgFAgfIKIeOX8uCY+dHCSp9OJAJj8Hc6Zmzw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1396:: with SMTP id k22mr17459239qki.424.1587412425106; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brians-mbp-2871.lan ([72.23.94.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a17sm376444qka.37.2020.04.20.12.53.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Apr 2020 12:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) From: Brian Rosen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:53:43 -0400 Cc: stir@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <252556BD-E16B-4BFC-AEE1-8975589BD886@brianrosen.net> References: To: Eric Burger X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] stir-certs-01: Certificate Expiration X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:53:58 -0000 This is a mechanical check. We could give IANA a tool.=20 But it=E2=80=99s also something that just isn=E2=80=99t much of an = issue. Suppose it expired. Then what? Verification officially fails. = Verifiers could choose to use the expired certificate if they wanted. = Is removing the entry actually helpful? I think not. So I=E2=80=99d just delete the text, replacing it with "registrants MUST = keep the registered data valid by updating it as needed". Brian > On Apr 20, 2020, at 1:31 PM, Eric Burger = wrote: >=20 > One would expect trust anchors to remove old entries, but there is no = guarantee. Russ asked if IANA could purge expired trust anchors from the = registry. It=E2=80=99s not straightforward, although possible. >=20 > The current draft says, =E2=80=9CIANA SHOULD remove a STIR trust = anchor from the registry if the certificate expires." >=20 > Options I see: > 1. Leave this as a SHOULD and IANA works it out when and if they work = it out. > 2. Make it a MUST and specify how IANA does the purge. > 3. ??? >=20 >=20 >=20 > TO DO > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > 1. Put in a mechanism for removing / updating entries. Proposal: = whomever (domain) put in the entry can delete or modify the entry. >=20 > 2. Add language that registry users are URGED (VERY STRONG MAY) to = validate the trust anchor, like making sure the trust anchor has not = expired. > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From nobody Tue Apr 21 16:31:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C80A3A0DF5 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cybzdhyNUXPx for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D70F23A0DEE for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03LNV57I084681 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:31:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1587511868; bh=A+CBkfZNw5UekBv4Cjny/4piKUwWkgGInH9QIhrMzlU=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=qSJAmFayiL6HJDbJuHULi1VTIERfzJUsb2ffessBlNjl8C6GCY+ySffrrpyJZv/J8 PP3ifAEfdMtGGFrWBCO5e+JTS2KSCp0QaHDKrskp8I4LeM/YEiwczsebeYJjh+k4Y2 F0KjbeYGQxeeQsaNIaT8NSVsCyFNHw/Oao5m8m3w= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: "stir@ietf.org" From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <8aafa230-c68e-1bd4-bf8a-eeae98d907a6@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:31:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Recording of Monday's interim X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:31:11 -0000 The recording of Monday's interim is available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XhinYp5cTs&feature=youtu.be RjS From nobody Tue Apr 28 11:44:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB14D3A0917 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:44:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:44:42 -0700 (PDT) To: stir@ietf.org From: Michael Thomas Message-ID: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:44:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] PASSporT question X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:44:47 -0000 Reading the introduction and abstract it repeatedly mentions "personal" and "persona". Is it actually relevant? I mean, I can be sitting together with a dozen other people on camera and this would all still be relevant, right? Also: a SIP camera watching my front porch would not necessarily have a person involved at all if it decided to call me because of porch pirate. Mike From nobody Tue Apr 28 11:54:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F59A3A0929 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruWGNbpznH6f for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 058903A0E7B for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id c21so7978038plz.4 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:53:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=WASxtitnjPfANb6sOv5Zv3zedWW1hDLyxDD6atylazo=; b=e0zIl2tRKy/yqbtSDpGFN5lsxc1XB9N/FwADhoXwwI7Ak7BIVEXwkm+KT4goizcu/8 SUM4FCMq2pN8DMkj2a068ist7hAtRo6qvZTZzhQ7Pfq9/u5ntcyg5EXt0iCiYpGevx7r YUlLd305AiQQWiiP58WLEdsm4TtnPQbHPGU3TOhhSGeTNrbBVJFVP7B6CIwbwHyhcSu7 sExzGEGxK+NJRhP03lFvZpZ6u+PZ+MaYaJ0/Hui2qCGx7ygIW4sk2XRRcP/HxBu9rXgy AG5Uty6Xv7EBcuWiUwotrF4swRytkxEf52X0qMa8q61A7unvQ6GJ2MSJ99F+ZcVaTyBC rVGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=WASxtitnjPfANb6sOv5Zv3zedWW1hDLyxDD6atylazo=; b=gOX1eTjF6F5nqOhlbYEVCCkenLZuD/pIEO1ywGb1DOnZJ8ow7lnhNNrxmal2gc8JI7 rEX19U775bnOheSO5/VNWeC3zrMVbcmhQBrsTFh+ZcF14DICrThYErIBpCsARd8c0D7d xfxmXjwJvdd0bIDtxsgQOW3LnkyArjWSTIpEYnqVThPUvtYbjbeoJRNUU1Z5SGQJkLfR ez8Jgp/dHA0jhGguerYJNS7l3NCG6BMCcwOvcsfRkVpU+kRRliGgqbSTJbWwP4GzAPPP j+DjhIuczJkqqsmnAdRpjfayZBUdY+9Csjcyo7Mpy/sviLUgQOr4Nl6rstMPO/SLNk62 Swvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYZPFkujwOzwLNw/0qNf6xXw9gJiakkjy0PWlR1w941sLGq4eyD okJafx3w1m554nJObphAFWzVXOYbMuo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJwUUPZK5Dia2EG+V87/YBhbwJUrReWsFc1C86pebv5eCoymqQzRVEDpUCIfGaEneQhhofzHw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:aa94:: with SMTP id d20mr5413081plr.15.1588099986970; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mike-mac.lan ([170.75.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w126sm15437489pfb.117.2020.04.28.11.53.05 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:53:06 -0700 (PDT) To: stir@ietf.org From: Michael Thomas Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:53:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] 8224 info URI's X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:54:27 -0000 Can I use an FTP uri? HTTP? What does an implementer need to support? I can't find that in section 7.3, and the other references seem to only informational? Mike From nobody Tue Apr 28 12:50:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866793A0B2B for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFNZ1qA8l6td for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com (mail-pl1-x629.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 220B43A0B29 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id t7so2970020plr.0 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language; bh=JzbVvDZILwXp13djjtoKqKUjQQsusF29r3Sb+Ech9+0=; b=zOmRzvXBEF7Uvf4x0qk2yMMeqINJJ5PsVyPBeNdotHsrdeodO2EZ1qa+go1IF/hOFw U2j0U0mKCV7XY4stTBHyBQk5Ar15N3xj1M68to2uYOL6BXDMI8VJKlfNrOLVcj7BV3V9 nop5QglqRRs3PTQ0FNOArqY8FfZB7XmPjbFrfQRvyF6BWxn0gmcixcoIw4FGOI2T442F V/cWx6QCGCEF9gyj1PJeKOIL5XxrG3NA+HnxFAjAOp9vwf8M5ppnVE3CDojNzL6YyPMj AFPJIQ2KbqnaKpJjSWXg2ui1ABjl+QXq1bd40snVxKzVoz5qfutbT9S2Zzl3fmVe6C68 mOcQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language; bh=JzbVvDZILwXp13djjtoKqKUjQQsusF29r3Sb+Ech9+0=; b=shIFZc1gP8cKOulDjsw2r99hRWfrHUdKmuP1Vt69Fjv61QEQSOSBy9+iiNHSzH5bTO WMeEgdxkbkMH1W3RtUmPFmelNy7f6yiAAe5fQIaecytQ8LYwCewwUuQEi/4/YCAZTt6D K4LsdeKSwsL55RuyYaC/f7iHeK9PzVxvJK2BSH0fw81E0HEfjMFJpZ4rG4HLtAyiSsOo 9PcYl3Y8Qprh57fX9AcWwprQgWocyxnALdDUx+0vnkAsa/7Wi2+HOhEVxrVoSDvy7LrJ TNSjVMcB8PzOcOT5xd4285khhjtmvf3Zit3N8vJaMcv0nB+B51gsJkIZieK2cbxNGzIF bM7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubkMakA7J5b1dtlfciXKjuoMBoCR3xxNhPC4WowSIoS3Mn+hUE6 y96HcN+y/ETSQpTX5wg8e2PAA6rYssI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK+VW3wQcFRt12/yNU8TjkLQrXs2PDrfvPI/wKSuh/SIf+1zCEEpbzf8Xj3YJVBfm0q/q8ngA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ed4a:: with SMTP id y10mr13315997plb.227.1588103413983; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mike-mac.lan ([170.75.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w2sm15825297pfc.194.2020.04.28.12.50.12 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) To: stir@ietf.org From: Michael Thomas Message-ID: <350f7a78-52b6-4c45-5ecf-0d30db8b8f4b@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:50:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------474ADE3FB4CA6154723522A0" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] 8224: "end users" X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:50:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------474ADE3FB4CA6154723522A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Abstract says: The baseline security mechanisms in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) are inadequate for cryptographically assuring the identity of the end users that originate SIP requests, especially in an interdomain context. This document defines a mechanism for securely identifying originators of SIP requests. It does so by defining a SIP header field for conveying a signature used for validating the identity and for conveying a reference to the credentials of the signer. Given the rest of the document, "end user" and "originators" is highly misleading. The document acknowledges that although UA's can potentially create Identity headers, it is not a very normal use case, and that its deployment would be relatively rare. What the abstract, etc seems to be asserting is that the verifier should, in fact, be able to trust that the user-part of a sip: URI as being authenticated. Putting aside the telephone numbers scraped out of sip: uri's, that implication is wrong. The receiving party cannot know what the sending party's practices are unless it either whitelisted them, or more likely was informed by some third party service which audits their practices. A sender making such a claim is no better than rfc3514's security protections. This seems to be sprinkled all over the document, and I haven't taken exact notes as to where all of this is implied or more, but this is an error and a pretty serious one. If the receiver makes decisions with that supposed guarantee in mind, that is exploitable. Even if that is not the intent (which is not at all clear), it distinctly leaves the reader with that implication. The document should make it completely clear that the receiver cannot trust the rfc 8224 sender's word about the user-part, and that that is not in scope. This is should be corrected. Mike --------------474ADE3FB4CA6154723522A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Abstract says:

   The baseline security mechanisms in the Session Initiation Protocol
   (SIP) are inadequate for cryptographically assuring the identity of
   the end users that originate SIP requests, especially in an
   interdomain context.  This document defines a mechanism for securely
   identifying originators of SIP requests.  It does so by defining a
   SIP header field for conveying a signature used for validating the
   identity and for conveying a reference to the credentials of the
   signer.

Given the rest of the document, "end user" and "originators" is highly misleading. The document acknowledges that although UA's can potentially create Identity headers, it is not a very normal use case, and that its deployment would be relatively rare. What the abstract, etc seems to be asserting is that the verifier should, in fact, be able to trust that the user-part of a sip: URI as being authenticated. Putting aside the telephone numbers scraped out of sip: uri's, that implication is wrong. The receiving party cannot know what the sending party's practices are unless it either whitelisted them, or more likely was informed by some third party service which audits their practices. A sender making such a claim is no better than rfc3514's security protections.

This seems to be sprinkled all over the document, and I haven't taken exact notes as to where all of this is implied or more, but this is an error and a pretty serious one. If the receiver makes decisions with that supposed guarantee in mind, that is exploitable. Even if that is not the intent (which is not at all clear), it distinctly leaves the reader with that implication. The document should make it completely clear that the receiver cannot trust the rfc 8224 sender's word about the user-part, and that that is not in scope.

This is should be corrected.

Mike

--------------474ADE3FB4CA6154723522A0-- From nobody Tue Apr 28 13:45:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AC43A0CF0 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:45:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=signalwire.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqPYMNxIMzsO for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oo1-xc35.google.com (mail-oo1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 907433A0CEE for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oo1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id q204so5026059ooq.1 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=signalwire.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qp+ykPcpJLN/LPaUMO06hNtMXjInGfB0CtkZpts7Ogg=; b=fOUIRTbFgfY8VQ10M8YlTp8lzo8XOyLvY/IH0lShDNbsE1DoGTE7TujHkbtarCMDCU deCZuT9m8SGAOISqFWHWvNHkekOyFU6xUDXQ6UuBN+nSB5eMWO1iPD5wgklgd8DZt60v C0MRapixCwiKj2Nx0bM+N9cfwMikz1iBmaRIk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qp+ykPcpJLN/LPaUMO06hNtMXjInGfB0CtkZpts7Ogg=; b=ri7hrxm8EpV9zrCPi0/ErWfnM/nTEJvWSrd1DluXYLyV5kDacvVPSXBJtncsaJoVhx pLzDlknl1qLFytgvy7BLXQoi5GXrNybehSPwXDXPeG0ZL4rjlvEc077Pmb0cGXgtcfKH txHgwY1MpMGV+lO2L6jccr4VQcPcZNzD0pWipqY5zuWlbQQGVbZQ4Y2+q2VbPdVejO+7 ZAnP4QQpxmEnlUJZICYqDMBQK+LXkf6jxUSbqD9nTY4/hnBNTHV1uuf6Mvpd1nOJivns Bha5iZGXqz6xVUezHVr7nNlvIdTRTgTWNJOuZYitTwgT2xPdEw1WbZo5hWcwpOsPysRy MgpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZp0Zg72aKurTAsR7qWu5IRFQu3q/w7biQ0s+qO+/rN+WL/0gi5 +jBonRKbsHbLTZWhDyjKSn6aF0dGBhRoSzY1QiFvo1sTENE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKC+08PnTt/E9avR6trW0CdK43trUqDnSnTiVy77RSvdf+UhGLmd8/wXpUIGn4CHkjWs0LGwIGmIa6FrdR9o0o= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:2fd3:: with SMTP id p202mr24704480oop.33.1588106739664; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:45:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> From: Piotr Gregor Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 21:45:03 +0100 Message-ID: To: Michael Thomas Cc: stir@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015618805a45feae3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT question X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 20:45:42 -0000 --00000000000015618805a45feae3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Michael, No, "personal" in PASSporT simply comes from the fact that PASSporT is created to assert identity of the originator, and thus it's got the name of "personal" identity, but it simply means asserting some identity, and it is of course the origin of the call, calling number. RFC 8225: > The Personal Assertion Token, PASSporT, is > cryptographically signed to protect the integrity of the identity of the > originator (...) There is ofcourse many ways the call can be originated, it can be made by a person (and here PASSporT indeed would be "personal assertion token") but it can be initiated by a software, without any human being involved - STIR-Shaken could be used just as well in this case with it's PASSporT to sign the call, important bit is only that it asserts the origin of the call. BTW: It is my first post on this list so may I introduce myself. My name is Piotr Gregor and I am working with SignalWire on STIR-Shaken. Welcome! cheers, Piotr --00000000000015618805a45feae3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

No, "personal" in= PASSporT simply comes from the fact that PASSporT is created to assert ide= ntity of the originator, and thus it's got the name of "personal&q= uot; identity,
but it simply means asserting some identity, and i= t is of course the origin of the call, calling number.

=
RFC 8225:
The P= ersonal Assertion Token, PASSporT, is
cryptographically signed to pro= tect the integrity of the identity of=C2=A0the originator=C2=A0(...)

=
There is ofcourse many ways the call can be originated, it can b= e made by a person (and here PASSporT indeed would be "personal assert= ion token")
but it can be initiated by a software, without a= ny human being involved - STIR-Shaken could be used just as well in this ca= se with it's PASSporT to sign the call,
important bit is only= that it asserts the origin of the call.

BTW: It i= s my first post on this list so may I introduce=C2=A0myself. My name is Pio= tr Gregor and I am working with SignalWire on STIR-Shaken. Welcome!

cheers,
Piotr=C2=A0
--00000000000015618805a45feae3-- From nobody Tue Apr 28 13:48:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF97A3A0D00 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:48:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jEKnxuTzhWZ for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2DB63A0CFF for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id y25so11386508pfn.5 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/LKV5pePUkl9d2FLtQJvHkVfqKuiaNZU4I7lL8v8Wjg=; b=W09L2IJXMyl+DNltg5V+XQ/qHMm6oOlTD24kl0AZwpbZ48pwXXKbZx6GrbNTXc3V4p 0ljjC+QRLAuLfYPO525wGWHDF3+1H2FFkKOtu2lGoES018Brs0Zcq7il3u6ahGiw/sJy GJuwjZ5dq6zPADtvujC48arvjPWu/aG12jfk3kcYfMDQtt0hSvJA7MF/hCE6JlmF/8kk QnYlSb6/CWEHPuFR49KztP+7UYhoPW0rwzta8YzDR7Q/NUj5ItbcXxo8rYwkbv2s4m95 Sri/I/NzT5XxUrGegNwq05+7CRnNw98TQJjJM5AQzy5+WD+yVQHn1veGT1Kg1yeLPvwc e2Ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/LKV5pePUkl9d2FLtQJvHkVfqKuiaNZU4I7lL8v8Wjg=; b=ICTZxl0ZrvNIv47ieNDnspoxRHdjlQi9MTMg3Jxo6UXFTbcpZqQCPNHIkFJgEPD0jz psekdZxPMCcdJIumiMSw+p3OxTSq0ye7XnO2KbwpmyINNngJbbpUKMgYsaAdihUGe7H1 4rPgpX3mVAFOIaPR5KpudIJpIs5TreJvoPNzXM6WiFcZxY2LXzWw9ube7gc18eRF7zkG MyEuG5LOeydb//4pbUc1qoVy+ZV5Ssd0bRn0p4tOHug8z4bx7e8HObzAUh5GokyOHOIg TnsZpl6RCP61cWuU9DFFyQi3zjG0SyQxhqylxG2O6BrCnHk9fjSbUV7KsKUJrjQ1vUln lNUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZCHUSaBE+R+Z2fySa7SanvYggGvzM3A9nN9v/cb74vd2Gv9w27 5HlI2RetbN+qC2USAoLKmpeV1HO77nFtmEVhzvb2mQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIOmVIwVq4MEQ+YYveBriVyMCkQod3cS0TsbIxFaCUYOGlf7sQ4qishNJZLmmxlysqtAOpfL5ezbeK0YR8cLck= X-Received: by 2002:a62:ae13:: with SMTP id q19mr6024779pff.310.1588106883480; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:48:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> From: Mary Barnes Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:47:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Michael Thomas Cc: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a7dd3105a45ff23b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT question X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 20:48:07 -0000 --000000000000a7dd3105a45ff23b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It's important for the acronym (only half joking). On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Thomas wrote: > > Reading the introduction and abstract it repeatedly mentions "personal" > and "persona". Is it actually relevant? I mean, I can be sitting > together with a dozen other people on camera and this would all still be > relevant, right? Also: a SIP camera watching my front porch would not > necessarily have a person involved at all if it decided to call me > because of porch pirate. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir > --000000000000a7dd3105a45ff23b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's important for the acronym (only half joking).=C2= =A0

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:

Reading the introduction and abstract it repeatedly mentions "personal= "
and "persona". Is it actually relevant? I mean, I can be sitting =
together with a dozen other people on camera and this would all still be relevant, right? Also: a SIP camera watching my front porch would not
necessarily have a person involved at all if it decided to call me
because of porch pirate.

Mike

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
--000000000000a7dd3105a45ff23b-- From nobody Tue Apr 28 15:09:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E2A3A0A54 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.648 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.648 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v6T1L06z919C for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23BD33A0AAF for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id f8so40044plt.2 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=TnSivjVu/udHh6nh65xPI9Sk61F21IDn4Vpyu4fT8XA=; b=WDuCelYETnXcy8vEfxxHt4/F8GC/Izeh4TEpVPXEP6y1leV/MhMOGBp1JSE5lVqW/A q61I/4FdE9USiVaB8ft2uEqZD1n7sLs/R+2NllVXR0z19LVZijq690g0+NZ6ZBjc+kJB JP4d4JQNP9C/UqDDimYBq2tReJIcb8lFMBZsbC4rQQkEH74WO9fA52euamJQAZxxOhYN iCuCDXwg3sa0X5s0m+e3pSQ2RdXFU8FZRFPMDOTGpd6miATsz48dZrURXjxSAf84JPcM yefeGAkrhB5YzZXAutqEnDV88WzCiynLQiHdwrGJcAx7KgtFxtcjaxn6gFOWf9PSfmjd RiNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=TnSivjVu/udHh6nh65xPI9Sk61F21IDn4Vpyu4fT8XA=; b=CYCeJD9UITMKtXfVHLoNTNC4NeMAHv9IBZBi2xiJpKjxK7wZFOT0S9kFlzxqg4S9Gx N7ucXRsEprFvMKtqAMcbHwa5VB7PmmycxxSLghdd0CO4J9IYzN4TRmKsssCGpQXEHNI8 MvbwqXrKGfmB0ePvaZ/wm9odFpEEm8CFNjgUPOqa4fcZj6FfmA6IHrvAtfRGwUWUsN6F DwyaoTXJtz6KK3bS6sde2z+4rOCmojiH6TOq0SyWxX6dYbDW4+rVrKj8buMPPjuALDVb UjTjtNkEQ8eraZnZ3qNYKBy/U5DhhWgd6vDgmUIUxRJVP51BtFL7Y9RwjmM16bAD4gH9 7B+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubwOcK2HffJzmyXelVVIZN0tMaEbDvTemq4FntaX70jqNoJ++kJ JrY4LTQ2fD185m2kqLUEmHJaqgndRwxkaQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ1cNjDGHU6tOkWdAOsqlG417GL5W2Cs/TM7bYxxKo6jGI4KnUVz+wv+nr83TQfwQcAFlf5Iw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:23e2:: with SMTP id g89mr7766463pje.105.1588111735017; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mike-mac.lan ([170.75.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f30sm3060608pje.29.2020.04.28.15.08.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Mary Barnes Cc: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" References: <62e762b6-4a1e-7d16-ced3-09ae785a30cc@mtcc.com> From: Michael Thomas Message-ID: <4151ce21-4f64-4234-c7a7-1b1f974c6ea1@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:08:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EFA901BAE04B7653044331CE" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT question X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:08:59 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EFA901BAE04B7653044331CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 4/28/20 1:47 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > It's important for the acronym (only half joking). > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Thomas > wrote: > > > Reading the introduction and abstract it repeatedly mentions > "personal" > and "persona". Is it actually relevant? I mean, I can be sitting > together with a dozen other people on camera and this would all > still be > relevant, right? Also: a SIP camera watching my front porch would not > necessarily have a person involved at all if it decided to call me > because of porch pirate. > I'm all for acronym fun -- I came up with the contorted KINK acronym, after all -- but there is actual a concern which I raised in another piece of mail here which make me worried about giving the impression that the receiver can believe guarantees about the originating user part being the owner of that user part. This just adds to my unease. Mike --------------EFA901BAE04B7653044331CE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 4/28/20 1:47 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:
It's important for the acronym (only half joking). 

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 1:44 PM Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com> wrote:

Reading the introduction and abstract it repeatedly mentions "personal"
and "persona". Is it actually relevant? I mean, I can be sitting
together with a dozen other people on camera and this would all still be
relevant, right? Also: a SIP camera watching my front porch would not
necessarily have a person involved at all if it decided to call me
because of porch pirate.


I'm all for acronym fun -- I came up with the contorted KINK acronym, after all -- but there is actual a concern which I raised in another piece of mail here which make me worried about giving the impression that the receiver can believe guarantees about the originating user part being the owner of that user part. This just adds to my unease.

Mike

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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------95DD0D71C1A83A961B7956BF" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] 8224: "end users" X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:41:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------95DD0D71C1A83A961B7956BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/28/20 3:29 PM, Holmes, David W [CTO] wrote: > > Michael, > > I believe you are referring to the issue of “reputation”; which is a > commercial/legal concept & way beyond the purview of any technical > standards group to verify.  Validation of the ID of the originating > party as described is only one factor that may be used, along with > other factors with others as you note, to evaluate the reputation of > the originator & allow trust of the originator & potentially of the > content of the communication. > I'm referring to reputation, insofar as that would be one way to vet another doman's practices, but that is a side point. My main point that I want discussed is that if the document(s) are in any way suggesting that the receiving party can trust the user@ from the sending domain to actually be user@, that is a large mistake and should be corrected. Mike --------------95DD0D71C1A83A961B7956BF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 4/28/20 3:29 PM, Holmes, David W [CTO] wrote:

Michael,

 

I believe you are referring to the issue of “reputation”; which is a commercial/legal concept & way beyond the purview of any technical standards group to verify.  Validation of the ID of the originating party as described is only one factor that may be used, along with other factors with others as you note, to evaluate the reputation of the originator & allow trust of the originator & potentially of the content of the communication.

I'm referring to reputation, insofar as that would be one way to vet another doman's practices, but that is a side point. My main point that I want discussed is that if the document(s) are in any way suggesting that the receiving party can trust the user@ from the sending domain to actually be user@, that is a large mistake and should be corrected.

Mike

--------------95DD0D71C1A83A961B7956BF-- From nobody Tue Apr 28 16:36:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F95B3A096B for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A66nOnB4kCiP for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 619F33A096A for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id 145so139779pfw.13 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mtcc-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=KwqMCOqwQfSzCQCnkRUO+N4+NSIfu85eYjMKUUhcB5w=; b=UjHdflxD+osozAymwcLsekNtLdYXbcBF63QC9wHcidkxvN9QV4E2D/QU472Ehx47Kd c9WCNaAa59rv2Br+xChhP+RCrnwb+s2KK1GVBx22hPzG4vUfSTThTPzSvoWKEqA3BySr Ht7YkAPAXNjvxcvDqWFU8XT/cY7YaIjrt+sSWtlT3e8/2fuFvhGgeEUWrnGus7Dft8CH /0l1/fOFVUC18bsa1u4A+UOT3WUICZNaJO6TtO1KrQPRxVTA/H7c89fyFyek8O9GRBv7 BdopAsiYFomM6/i0j9DizmfeTJzSMJY4NlgRX9NN44q/qmoFv+pWxoyp5OabOugNPjVQ tsVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=KwqMCOqwQfSzCQCnkRUO+N4+NSIfu85eYjMKUUhcB5w=; b=NWfLrDISM0vzF7Z+HMoBkzpZtbKrsrZamKhaCHFGJir8KRgNuZfkBNBa0mOS/CzaTm 3ynl4MEFwxX7CYy0wv4s9OypMyqFZlvTiP6SCGvOr4HOudcr2nLAkJAMQGfyfe7nVXEl LTcP7iQN3jyl/AD6QszDV9ZGQ/O0N8CEFyfLCbT/cXypEACsvbU7IOQD63KFm8u9wmOv qgQJuYAr9L2N2zckB6BxjGurPBNX3jhv6tz7ttbFn5bgIu6d19zL+xCUMqHHKCeoXOV9 p6pLsE+cRlNA5vUQaTOzT1zKATmfNyCfDdUP9bx9e1kXPfQDoY+YkLX8XFjyOyuC7krp I/Lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZVHJG6NPM6v1E8C8ulqbdOnXLM1CM32VML6Gf2KMc6X7Om9KDg fSDbbKI0BCgRFQSqsgwMdjDD7bbloC4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKZIrgtKUszPnIRXKb0GDaKJWPn47Ci1kESr6OOck5ApsEfRTnzYdrQaPpPXPYL5PZnX4TrbQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:7bc3:: with SMTP id w186mr30290280pfc.295.1588116983370; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mike-mac.lan ([170.75.128.30]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v26sm15690836pfe.121.2020.04.28.16.36.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT) To: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" From: Michael Thomas Message-ID: <088d1b7b-b4fc-72e6-62be-40cc22273c1f@mtcc.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:36:26 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] for e.164 address, who do i blame? X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 23:36:26 -0000 Forgive me because I haven't manage to get through all of the docs yet, but while I'm pretty sure I know who to blame for sip:user@domain (= domain owner), is there an equivalent for the telephone numbers? That is, does the cert I download have contact information for who the number(s) are delegated to? I'm not asking for anything beyond that, just whether I can find that out reliably as, say, a human being. Mike From nobody Tue Apr 28 17:36:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4428C3A09F0 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=shockey.us Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7sSS7wL6CbZQ for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway30.websitewelcome.com (gateway30.websitewelcome.com [192.185.144.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CE823A07D6 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm14.websitewelcome.com (cm14.websitewelcome.com [100.42.49.7]) by gateway30.websitewelcome.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E643CA7 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:35:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from box5527.bluehost.com ([162.241.218.19]) by cmsmtp with SMTP id TahXjgr40XVkQTahXjqYeQ; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 19:35:47 -0500 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shockey.us; s=default; h=Content-transfer-encoding:Content-type:Mime-version:In-Reply-To :References:Message-ID:To:From:Subject:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=2tFRjO237Zeif1cbeDmaDK8UckZk5GOFLeOcXQRHi6s=; b=eHphv0EmsRHu+uwHiD/09nTgMq 8BPE1CBuwTnRDizPSM79597Ltx+sJ+FQzeZYldjKBiZ+GAAJrZjV46DQT1fVZv+CnyXSyizJol5P/ rFehULBJz3s+p2V5TatnwJC22; Received: from pool-100-36-47-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.36.47.17]:59014 helo=[192.168.1.156]) by box5527.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jTahX-001AWB-MJ for stir@ietf.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:35:47 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.36.20041300 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 20:35:47 -0400 From: Richard Shockey To: "stir@ietf.org" Message-ID: <8CF5938A-8572-429B-84EF-73EEE19AEAF9@shockey.us> Thread-Topic: [stir] for e.164 address, who do i blame? References: <088d1b7b-b4fc-72e6-62be-40cc22273c1f@mtcc.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box5527.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - shockey.us X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.36.47.17 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1jTahX-001AWB-MJ X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-36-47-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([192.168.1.156]) [100.36.47.17]:59014 X-Source-Auth: richard+shockey.us X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: c2hvY2tleXU7c2hvY2tleXU7Ym94NTUyNy5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [stir] FW: for e.164 address, who do i blame? X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 00:36:12 -0000 Apologies this should have gone to the STIR list and not IETF Discuss. =E2=80=94=20 Richard Shockey =EF=BB=BFOn 4/28/20, 8:34 PM, "Richard Shockey" wrote: =EF=BB=BFOn 4/28/20, 7:36 PM, "stir on behalf of Michael Thomas" wrote: Forgive me because I haven't manage to get through all of the docs = yet,=20 but while I'm pretty sure I know who to blame for sip:user@domain (= =3D=20 domain owner), is there an equivalent for the telephone numbers?=20 RS> Yes the Government. ( They are here to help...just remember!) Phon= e numbers by international treaty are the exclusive domain of National Regul= atory Authorities. In the US that is the FCC and the Wireline Competition Bu= reau advised by yours truly and others in the North American Numbering Counc= il. The statutory authority is Section 251 (e) 1 of the US Code. In Canada = it=E2=80=99s the CRTC, in the UK its OFCOM etc etc. Every nation state grants tota= l absolute and plenary authority to phone numbers in much the same way. Phon= e numbers work which is why they are still so popular.=20 That=20 is, does the cert I download have contact information for who the=20 number(s) are delegated to? I'm not asking for anything beyond that= ,=20 just whether I can find that out reliably as, say, a human being. RS> The US STIR/SHAKEN Passport within the SIP INVITE will have a OCN a= n Operator Carrier Number [OCN] imbedded that will permit a trace back to th= e carrier of record for that number issued by the NANPA. These rules are in = some flux right now. The S/S system in the US , for now, is highly carrier= centric. You must have direct access to the US NANP to join the club. Ente= rprises are, even now, demanding to sign their own calls over their own SIP = Trunks. How the UK or Australia etc are planning to do this is their busin= ess. Obviously there is a lot of trace back imbedded in the system due to t= he requirements of Law Enforcement for wiretapping imbedded in CALEA. https://www.neca.org/business-solutions/company-codes Stay tuned...film at 11.=20 Mike _______________________________________________ stir mailing list stir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir