From nobody Tue Dec 11 21:44:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103701310EC for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:44:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T5p_V8Dm9UDY for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 21:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr820135.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.82.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755FB1310E9 for ; 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boundary="_000_DM5PR21MB069822F40B3F5CC8DBD5F6C69DA70DM5PR21MB0698namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 088e3ff4-d8e3-4129-e9c7-08d65ff4e342 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Dec 2018 05:44:30.6804 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR21MB0841 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 05:44:35 -0000 --_000_DM5PR21MB069822F40B3F5CC8DBD5F6C69DA70DM5PR21MB0698namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had further discussions with some security experts about the two differen= t manifest drafts, I thought it would be useful to summarize it for the wor= k group: The SUIT Architecture mentions two specific requirements: 3.6 Operate with a small bootloader and 3.7 Small Parsers A self-describing format such as CBOR obviously has the advantage that it i= s more extensible. This has advantages for tools as they can operate on the= data without necessarily understanding all the fields. However typically a= particular type of MCU does not allow for much flexibility, it usually is = optimized for a particular set of crypto functions, compression, file forma= ts etc. The MCU won't be able to handle most of the variations the format a= llows for. For the MCU it is far more important to meet the requirements ab= ove (small bootloader/parser). They also pointed out that CBOR not only req= uires extra code and data buffers but also adds complexity which might get = exploited in a similar way as recently the ASN.1 parser did in OpenSSL. If = you use a smaller custom parser as suggested, then you lose the flexibility= but add extra custom code maintenance and potentially vulnerabilities, too= . Therefore they pointed out that a fixed binary manifest structure with ju= st the options a particular MCU supports would allow both the bootloader an= d the installer to be small and nimble and therefore safer. We may want to consider using the CBOR format to submit drivers and other c= omponents to the update server which can then verify them and generate a ne= w manifest in the specific format the particular type of MCU understands. T= hat way only the update server needs to understand what exact formats, cryp= to algorithms etc the MCU (bootloader and installer) understands and what k= eys are available to the MCU. Most MCUs will have the key to verify a manifest generated by the update se= rver, but not the key for each firmware author anyways. This means the upda= te server would need to be a trusted intermediary, but the MCU may only hav= e to verify a single signature rather than multiple from different authors. BR Martin --_000_DM5PR21MB069822F40B3F5CC8DBD5F6C69DA70DM5PR21MB0698namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had further discussions with some security experts= about the two different manifest drafts, I thought it would be useful to s= ummarize it for the work group:

 

The SUIT Architecture mentions two specific requirem= ents:

        &nbs= p;     3.6 Operate with a small bootloader   = and

        &nbs= p;     3.7 Small Parsers

 

A self-describing format such as CBOR obviously has = the advantage that it is more extensible. This has advantages for tools as = they can operate on the data without necessarily understanding all the fiel= ds. However typically a particular type of MCU does not allow for much flexibility, it usually is optimized f= or a particular set of crypto functions, compression, file formats etc. The= MCU won’t be able to handle most of the variations the format allows= for. For the MCU it is far more important to meet the requirements above (small bootloader/parser). They also pointe= d out that CBOR not only requires extra code and data buffers but also adds= complexity which might get exploited in a similar way as recently the ASN.= 1 parser did in OpenSSL. If you use a smaller custom parser as suggested, then you lose the flexibility bu= t add extra custom code maintenance and potentially vulnerabilities, too. T= herefore they pointed out that a fixed binary manifest structure with just = the options a particular MCU supports would allow both the bootloader and the installer to be small and nimble a= nd therefore safer.

 

We may want to consider using the CBOR format to sub= mit drivers and other components to the update server which can then verify= them and generate a new manifest in the specific format the particular typ= e of MCU understands. That way only the update server needs to understand what exact formats, crypto algorithm= s etc the MCU (bootloader and installer) understands and what keys are avai= lable to the MCU.

 

Most MCUs will have the key to verify a manifest gen= erated by the update server, but not the key for each firmware author anywa= ys. This means the update server would need to be a trusted intermediary, b= ut the MCU may only have to verify a single signature rather than multiple from different authors.=

BR

Martin

 

 

 

 

--_000_DM5PR21MB069822F40B3F5CC8DBD5F6C69DA70DM5PR21MB0698namp_-- From nobody Wed Dec 12 12:50:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936AB130F84 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:50:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IlTwwH1s91TN for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7182E1276D0 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:50:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3128520090; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 13407DF7; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10EF4D26; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 20:50:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Martin Pagel wrote: > I had further discussions with some security experts about the two > different manifest drafts, I thought it would be useful to summarize > it for the work group: I'm a security expert of 30+ years. I've written both ASN.1 and CBOR parsers (more ASN.1 than CBOR thanks to widely available CBOR libraries), and dozens and dozens of custom format parsers for a large variety of 8-bit (back when that was "current"), 16-bit, and 32/64-bit architectures. I've written them in C, assembler, perl (yes. bash even hardware via /dev/mem and unpack), Tcl, BASIC (PEEK/POKE), and this includes things like bespoke mailboxes and ring structures for things like ethernet and NPU devices. (Not just on the "OS"/Linux/BSD side, but on the "microcontroller" side too). ASN.1 and CBOR are in completely opposite sides of the design space: anyone who is older than 50 desperately wishes we had CBOR back in 1984 (when ASN.1 was hatched my a committee). The broken process that led to the design is a probably a major reason for why the IETF does things the way we do things. I'm also one of the maintainers of tcpdump, and I've extensive experience with network attacks on custom C-written parsers for protocols. (It's not pretty: even extensively reviewed code winds up with issues. The google bounty program has had an interesting affect) > A self-describing format such as CBOR obviously has the advantage that > it is more extensible. No, this is not really the advantage of CBOR. Many structures can be defined that are easily extensible. The IETF has dozens of TLV structures (sadly different). The advantage is that CBOR libraries can easily be tested against a wide variety of inputs on a machine that enforces NULL deferences, structure overflow and underflows, and where the develop/compile/test cycle can be measured in dozens of seconds rather than dozens of minutes. These libraries are widely used and widely tested. Pull parsers can be written that uses almost no storage at all (at the cost of cycles). Our manifest should be a simple CBOR map, and if we put a constraint on how the keys are ordered then the pull parser could be implemented with almost no cycles at the cost of one pointer of storage. Such a piece of code could be in a library and be widely used/tested, along side full CBOR parsers that map to Python/Ruby/Perl. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlwRdHgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX/xwf/RlQAXMjQRYek7hzAzsKgtT5ASSddzoUtmYCzSNdDTIoHlAW8bJKk9q9E OwMPRIjHGNXQR4U5bY+TtcGEiZWzSMRZPXeGTnTYO91qoXWe9924wavqScQHnFWc pXK02TN6BhCiqZ0/PDmjpraWbhwWcoHHc7VLuRv3FjpG185eU1iNx6vCjFMqEn4m klnrVgszlI6R9e9KmGknOWIwLSnfbC8NeDt/iuEeVgWHgIAUmjImC4ViINKAJ3vK e2NRpQ6YXiYOsfKkfIxuB2bdPHBXMVda8w4Re5/KWnM/+TAoizXrgU6Qe7DTS/u0 8QiI+r3wXLqQLROTbR+cHQp2nVVDxw== =Hixz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 12 13:16:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2EF130F91 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:16:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSGqOyllf-Az for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1925E130F7F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 13:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C947820090 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id AB67ADF7; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:16:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91E065 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:16:35 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: suit@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] pruning in draft-moran-suit-manifest X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 21:16:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I'm watching the video from the SUIT WG meeting of IETF103 (as I had a conflict). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-moran-suit-manifest/ Read the -03 document... I think that I read -01 back in the spring. > N.B. The value 19 is a placeholder and needs to be registered. might be better to use TBD please :-) I am pleased that map structures are used throughout. It really took a bit of understanding why it felt like a new COSE object was being created. Then I realized that it was a new thing. I understand now that COSE_Digest a way to point at externally hashed objects. I suggest that this belongs in a new document, or maybe could be in a later section. But, I started this email to understand the pruning for storage and/or transport. It took me a few cycles and paging back and forth in the document to see how the pruning can take place while still being able to validate the signature. I worried at first that the description, etc. was not under the signature, and then figured that it wasn't. I see how you did it now, and I really like it. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlwRerMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW+dQgApsO35uxKlTFy6W3+/kQ9p041ddZwpuiIDUsnt3IB5xHnL2dGnFXD1LnC vb0jMpSUOW5gdDmO98S5lJYCIrjedkOXfn95/QasEsbfeEgnMbDTsLyZFmUaIwbt QP46N1y24KjiJIELsYEc4xDpv1S9Us1hrxIln+ILLmKunE3VAqIpoOGwiZ5T1kFV ogw/hc3fTMj4Tq8MWXp97YJFZRI+ZAeDqrNwWu5bsZU4GhJzuSY8GibMPSaZZ8dq PsEAQ5ZDdd7v/xHhTRdGhdRgVoK+xJBsT3qyRzF9y67kjlDTjwRuN++SmQs1HJv6 uZFlp755Izy8qTWChbgrORjj8B+Jkg== =EmNq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 12 15:34:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A47313131F for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=linaro.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FsORpam7yRQj for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7885913131D for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72a.google.com with SMTP id 189so99220qkj.8 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=IsivnNMmHy7nZuK/i2zVfBnUFJSXGgCdoqdN0mMs2qM=; b=cOMcXy+HpXkyQbVseLQtomKNuKmg5xmAOwH/dg0SxOcw/OCqJYFdG/OqORYOlE79+Y LNfVtFmoy+OCf1JDhpFgjkYsu6aMh+yFbzVBiRMgsGI8ypdRaivm9uUBP2j5hUbg51oQ HCY+04PBZ22+poHpvEMSPzkMr1I0hfmMXJCBQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=IsivnNMmHy7nZuK/i2zVfBnUFJSXGgCdoqdN0mMs2qM=; b=HW65tNSCtdPbEAEttteCOflS69D7v89IilZ9lg9Am9BKtrHUQDuU+93LJRiFcf2CuF SWshXnIXvkxSxAd8MVggwUffYNRJp55FAfNSmHTJEIK8UYaLmMoMiY3Zm25HeTm/c6LI ydeoFljPbE29JpXgTqUIHxpkfkzcir2r7uma32hysosV3keKIsBDs39HEgP2tL7DI0Wu nin99CRwRHt9+GUab9g2P5wlaaLCneT0mM31+dLGmJnRySTX11ScvBCBB9wHGATT2lGu 1xndjrWJx85+kNQ9RpUIaCKDyLyNCMuq8GvyO0Ryf58YdQKBEQ4VMxV1kruyZQf4pZAw ZyDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZ7Sv5rJCYgLJnhqjbtivbE18Bikk0CdxPu4qtnSvi9ydeuP7mj MhK/M58k7+57Uf848eCnyvuA0T6ITFf4Eg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/U3bMc2yXmfkJO3yXjzc8GNVsqNZ0L7JJ8rk1xR5RObxQtIVoiB6VIvV9dj/hny5o+c5kQnsA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:1956:: with SMTP id k83mr19156310qkh.344.1544657681475; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidb.org (cn-co-b07400e8c3-142422-1.tingfiber.com. [64.98.48.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n68sm93085qte.66.2018.12.12.15.34.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:34:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:34:32 -0700 From: David Brown To: Brendan Moran Cc: suit Message-ID: <20181212233432.GA28983@davidb.org> References: <77A2FE52-4828-481A-AA09-F20FCF0C3605@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <77A2FE52-4828-481A-AA09-F20FCF0C3605@arm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] CBOR pull parsing vs. packed binary format extraction X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 23:34:45 -0000 On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:24:17PM +0000, Brendan Moran wrote: >I have worked up an example pull parser for Class 1 devices. It is >published in the suit-manifest-generator repo: > >https://github.com/ARMmbed/suit-manifest-generator/tree/master/parser-example > >This repo demonstrates constructing a highly specialised parser for >the draft-moran-suit-manifest-03 draft (with one small modification >that will be included in the 04 draft) as detailed in README.md. This parser doesn't appear to check the size of the buffer it is decoding, and especially when verifying the signature just uses the length in the CBOR data without regards to whether it has that much data available. At a minimum, it needs to be very strict about sizes when verifying the signature, and probably should be throughout. David From nobody Wed Dec 12 15:38:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B55131338 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=linaro.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F1-NL3zenJRm for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A76131331 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72a.google.com with SMTP id o89so130980qko.0 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=vyRD936mUNB0jZj2lqyLDiYUZU6xxsxxUMy94kroDDs=; b=kUHGvKQeNVzEwGQ7nNDn8qpo5WOY5MMaDZ33Ri97SiPhjP1wZKJp4FXyklc42/g65j CLt+xivxW5gZzsdbkVNtKLerh2D30/5MpbLwZ9CY2VX/6s1dlu9WxHB9jVIJaHzMe51J xFF0/qrb6h1KAAXG8aYFP0dz/J/EIbG231k+8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=vyRD936mUNB0jZj2lqyLDiYUZU6xxsxxUMy94kroDDs=; b=FgcxCrGxgAEVsNlTHwXAkBDO48s+tQg2IUZH8sbEN+oenLB44G5kg5Okhgx0OTYaih PSDPvGuzigtzFpRh9VSq3Uh1okGlvzjBLB8/ocAPAVKNJ0guTWorTLlmSS/rOfsoK0oC dwB+Eu8tHtgnah/wKcDpCzwxFCT7kDoO2WsoNXXLE1oZShIgS/sd7SXeUZf5DPp0ypYn gNbfVB9RkC+dwUP1E9No/k08nniwamGnTeKrxI81iJ/0NdrUfXwVa6naviw+GRu7O/dz IluLm3+c1dzVWAbSsgU3dDJyLhxnIp2HCbZ0T4lgm5SrRWMjsbISOIKF6DIdUcsL+1c9 g76Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZzmG7ezEBoyXqPpBA7tepMCpDJhKAFZjfY4DhreMW+b4G9AUbz D2ZJhIA8DhJEQ3yKDJnFB1r3Tmq9Kikc/Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XM/HM+duZ04um3nsrbvd7TrGT8c+lJWKXC5ZTUY6HG85woXhMi+b0TxVispWzgzQ/CmutUTw== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:e102:: with SMTP id g2mr18984217qkm.343.1544657926690; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidb.org (cn-co-b07400e8c3-142422-1.tingfiber.com. [64.98.48.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v22sm115415qkl.27.2018.12.12.15.38.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Dec 2018 15:38:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:38:37 -0700 From: David Brown To: Brendan Moran Cc: suit Message-ID: <20181212233837.GB28983@davidb.org> References: <77A2FE52-4828-481A-AA09-F20FCF0C3605@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <77A2FE52-4828-481A-AA09-F20FCF0C3605@arm.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] CBOR pull parsing vs. packed binary format extraction X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2018 23:38:49 -0000 On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:24:17PM +0000, Brendan Moran wrote: >The parser consumes 560 bytes of flash, uses only a single pointer of >state between function calls, returns interpreted integers and >references to byte strings to save memory when called, and uses no >dynamic memory. It is guaranteed not to issue unaligned accesses, >since all accesses are explicitly byte-wise. As a comparison with MCUboot, which currently uses a manifest encoded with a simple TLV format. This manifest is a little simpler and more specific than SUIT's, does not describe any dependencies, and basically represents the signature. The code to traverse the tlv itself is 388 bytes. The whole code to verify signatures (using mbed TLS for the RSA operations) is 1220 bytes of Cortex-M code. >The parser can be used in a low-resource mode, consuming 333 bytes of >flash, but giving up structural validation of the CBOR, and assuming >that any fixed components (such as containers) of the manifest are >correct I'm not sure if this low-resource version is useful, since a malicious manifest could cause it to exceed the input buffer. In fact, as mentioned previously, I think the existing (560 bytes) of code will grow somewhat when the bounds for at least the signature are checked. David From nobody Thu Dec 13 06:32:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52212124BF6 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 06:32:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3uO3XDHGA7m for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 06:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 750E51252B7 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 06:32:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211DCE2058; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15018-05; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (IHTFP-DHCP-158.IHTFP.ORG [192.168.248.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (not verified)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3947BE2057; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:32:16 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1544711536; bh=3D4kT+KMrjxrmsSNavjh3lhD4A5y9c2c2XbWVnT6Ksw=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=mz7QUxH9xMWWrCqC351GcXNKKtmNvYY1MryW74BS+UKGlpSXCGHi58XwMsMh8D7dG L+bysoumDnJGU4xIndstHCFdoOf49qVxtaQaxDx+OeMNioVG/CpKf2kLoRf82U0arr dJ6X+mvW0PsDAIhkcE6XX+8ay34T2KoSEcgxHuH4= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id wBDEWFA2028973; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:32:15 -0500 From: Derek Atkins To: David Brown Cc: Brendan Moran , suit References: <77A2FE52-4828-481A-AA09-F20FCF0C3605@arm.com> <20181212233837.GB28983@davidb.org> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 09:32:15 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20181212233837.GB28983@davidb.org> (David Brown's message of "Wed, 12 Dec 2018 16:38:37 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] CBOR pull parsing vs. packed binary format extraction X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 14:32:32 -0000 David Brown writes: > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 12:24:17PM +0000, Brendan Moran wrote: > >>The parser consumes 560 bytes of flash, uses only a single pointer of >>state between function calls, returns interpreted integers and >>references to byte strings to save memory when called, and uses no >>dynamic memory. It is guaranteed not to issue unaligned accesses, >>since all accesses are explicitly byte-wise. > > As a comparison with MCUboot, which currently uses a manifest encoded > with a simple TLV format. This manifest is a little simpler and more > specific than SUIT's, does not describe any dependencies, and > basically represents the signature. > > The code to traverse the tlv itself is 388 bytes. The whole code to > verify signatures (using mbed TLS for the RSA operations) is 1220 > bytes of Cortex-M code. > >>The parser can be used in a low-resource mode, consuming 333 bytes of >>flash, but giving up structural validation of the CBOR, and assuming >>that any fixed components (such as containers) of the manifest are >>correct > > I'm not sure if this low-resource version is useful, since a malicious > manifest could cause it to exceed the input buffer. In fact, as > mentioned previously, I think the existing (560 bytes) of code will > grow somewhat when the bounds for at least the signature are checked. The parser knows the total size of the manifest (or at least it SHOULD know that). A broken manifest can re-split itself however it wants, but an overrun (beyond the size of the manifest) should be easily blocked. For example, if the manifest is 128 bytes total, but the data claims a signature size of 256, the parser should be able to throw that out easily. I don't see a way to block a manifest saying a signature is X+Y bytes (going across the manifest data separation boundaries). For example, if the total manifest is 1000 bytes, and the signature data claims to be 256 (but really it's only 128), I don't see a way ANY parser could properly handle this case. Technically (IMHO) this is not an overrun, but hopefully the signature verification process will fail. > David -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Thu Dec 13 15:22:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252C9130EA9 for ; Thu, 13 Dec 2018 15:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.461 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.461 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97lch1qWU3po for ; 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Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:22:08 +0000 From: Martin Pagel To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co" Thread-Topic: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure Thread-Index: AdSRuIx24y9fgBmKQIigg64Z3c8zMwAo7OaAADVwiOA= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:22:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> In-Reply-To: <9919.1544647801@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=mapagel@microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2018-12-13T23:22:06.4304633Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6d86ea1a-ff0f-4c46-90f1-08d66151cd28 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Dec 2018 23:22:07.9535 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR21MB0188 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:22:14 -0000 Thanks, Michael,=20 for sharing your experience.=20 In general I actually agree with your assessment. If you have many options,= a well defined format like CBOR is much better than custom C structures as= you can use a standard, already vetted parsing library. The standard parse= r library turns the CBOR data into a data structure, in IoT usually a prett= y complex C structure. As the generic parser does not understand the semant= ics of the fields (only the syntax as defined by the CDDL), the developer s= till has to write code to verify a complex data structure and enforce seman= tics and you still have to test/verify such code. If you have lots of optio= ns, then again, that's a good approach. But, as others already pointed out,= a manifest only uses a fraction of the power of CBOR and simple MCUs can o= nly handle a fraction of the options proposed in the current Moran manifest= draft. Each MCU still needs to make sure that any CBOR generated data stru= cture is either properly processed or rejected, that is complex code which = cannot be subjected to automated generic testing like the parser library ca= n and therefore can lead to vulnerabilities.=20 If you start with a binary manifest however, you skip the parsing step, you= just load the data structure into memory. The data structure is much simpl= er as it only handles the few fields and options the MCU can actually handl= e. Yes, you need to do some more boundary checks on those few fields, somet= hing the CBOR parser might have done for you in the other case, but boundar= y checks on a simple data structure are pretty easy to implement. Far more = important however is the fact that the code to enforce semantics is much sm= aller as it only has to deal with a few fields as your degree of freedom is= far smaller. If you want to use the manifest for secure boot via boot ROM, you want to m= ake sure you get 100% code coverage during testing as you can't update the = ROM. A generic parser often won't fit in the ROM and the number of options = you would need to verify during testing becomes prohibitive.=20 Therefore I believe that for constrained MCUs, in particular secure boot sc= enarios, a binary format has clear advantages. For larger, more flexible MC= Us a CBOR based manifest may offer advantages. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 12:50 PM To: suit@ietf.org; dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structu= re Martin Pagel wrote: > I had further discussions with some security experts about the two=20 > different manifest drafts, I thought it would be useful to summarize=20 > it for the work group: I'm a security expert of 30+ years. I've written both ASN.1 and CBOR parsers (more ASN.1 than CBOR thanks to wi= dely available CBOR libraries), and dozens and dozens of custom format pars= ers for a large variety of 8-bit (back when that was "current"), 16-bit, an= d 32/64-bit architectures. I've written them in C, assembler, perl (yes. b= ash even hardware via /dev/mem and unpack), Tcl, BASIC (PEEK/POKE), and thi= s includes things like bespoke mailboxes and ring structures for things lik= e ethernet and NPU devices. (Not just on the "OS"/Linux/BSD side, but on th= e "microcontroller" side too). ASN.1 and CBOR are in completely opposite sides of the design space: anyone= who is older than 50 desperately wishes we had CBOR back in 1984 (when ASN= .1 was hatched my a committee). The broken process that led to the design = is a probably a major reason for why the IETF does things the way we do thi= ngs. I'm also one of the maintainers of tcpdump, and I've extensive experience w= ith network attacks on custom C-written parsers for protocols. (It's not pretty: even extensively reviewed code winds up with issues. The google bounty program has had an interesting affect) > A self-describing format such as CBOR obviously has the advantage that=20 > it is more extensible. No, this is not really the advantage of CBOR. Many structures can be defined that are easily extensible. The IETF has dozens of TLV structures (sadly different). The advantage is that CBOR libraries can easily be tested against a wide va= riety of inputs on a machine that enforces NULL deferences, structure overf= low and underflows, and where the develop/compile/test cycle can be measure= d in dozens of seconds rather than dozens of minutes. These libraries are widely used and widely tested. Pull parsers can be written that uses almost no storage at all (at the cost= of cycles). Our manifest should be a simple CBOR map, and if we put a con= straint on how the keys are ordered then the pull parser could be implement= ed with almost no cycles at the cost of one pointer of storage. Such a piece of code could be in a library and be widely used/tested, along= side full CBOR parsers that map to Python/Ruby/Perl. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Fri Dec 14 06:10:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5177127B92 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u__SkC79ND2M for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40599127B4C for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C2AE2054; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09355-07; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (IHTFP-DHCP-158.IHTFP.ORG [192.168.248.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (not verified)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA7A4E2045; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:10:31 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1544796631; bh=B3XZQ8JIUJnF5ItMsEle5CmYzfpCRCWmd/d1MI2sGGI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=G4l/XT9YsdsZdy+49UbZadv4nSexAYIAPZHRZQFsdujfusf9vGrpL4lJlml+CoDq8 rO6tqwCS8UlYTHLfLJ5WeI9kK6s3UGwUE7DlKa3gWlhwNQE2mceYNVS0VPweEc7fbc x63ou1JFOa4QnMnrTBaWmq9KCEIyqrBv6y+NyFE0= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id wBEEAThb027098; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:10:29 -0500 From: Derek Atkins To: Martin Pagel Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:10:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Martin Pagel's message of "Thu, 13 Dec 2018 23:22:07 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 14:10:47 -0000 Martin Pagel writes: > If you start with a binary manifest however, you skip the parsing > step, you just load the data structure into memory. The data structure Careful... This way lies dragons!!! Indeed, this is exactly how various overflow issues happen. For example, if you build a manifest for a system that has a 16-bit integer but it gets read on a system with a 32-bit integer, you now have problems. You also have potential byte-order problems (is this a big-endian or little-endian system -- and does the target match the originator?) > is much simpler as it only handles the few fields and options the MCU > can actually handle. Yes, you need to do some more boundary checks on > those few fields, something the CBOR parser might have done for you in > the other case, but boundary checks on a simple data structure are > pretty easy to implement. Far more important however is the fact that > the code to enforce semantics is much smaller as it only has to deal > with a few fields as your degree of freedom is far smaller. It's actually NOT any easier, and I would argue you STILL have to ensure proper sizing, which means lots of testing. At that point, you might as well use CBOR. The various C size-specific data types can help, to some degree, but the cost of being wrong is greater, and in my experience it's EASY to get it wrong. > If you want to use the manifest for secure boot via boot ROM, you want > to make sure you get 100% code coverage during testing as you can't > update the ROM. A generic parser often won't fit in the ROM and the > number of options you would need to verify during testing becomes > prohibitive. You don't need a generic parser; you can have a specific parser for the items you specify and just code the system to bomb out if it finds something unexpected. This is SAFER (specifically in a secure boot system!) than just reading in a C-data-structure and *hoping* all the data bits line up correctly! > Therefore I believe that for constrained MCUs, in particular secure > boot scenarios, a binary format has clear advantages. For larger, more > flexible MCUs a CBOR based manifest may offer advantages. In $DAYJOB we build secure boot solutions for timy MCUs (8051, AVR8, MSP430, ARM, RISC-V) and I would argue that the binary format might SEEM to have advantages, but like I said, there be dragons! > Martin -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Fri Dec 14 06:32:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37CB130E18 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:32:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QkF9GvnC3_zH for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ADCC130E02 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:32:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id wBEEWNxN022294; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:32:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de (sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43GY0l3cfdz1Br6; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:32:23 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:32:22 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 566490740.958717-4a049857092387e5bd70f5487a799ced Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> To: Martin Pagel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 14:32:38 -0000 On Dec 14, 2018, at 00:22, Martin Pagel = wrote: >=20 > Therefore I believe that for constrained MCUs, in particular secure = boot scenarios, a binary format has clear advantages. For larger, more = flexible MCUs a CBOR based manifest may offer advantages. I=E2=80=99m a bit tired of this discussion, in part because I no longer = quite understand what you are discussing. CBOR is the Concise Binary Object Representation. In what way is binary = better than binary? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 14 06:59:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285CD127B4C for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:59:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jS7RVCPAIXqd for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from llmx3.ll.mit.edu (LLMX3.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2587E128CB7 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 06:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from LLE2K16-MBX01.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K16-MBX01.mitll.ad.local) by llmx3.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTP id wBEEx94k039131 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:59:09 -0500 To: References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> From: Andy Bentley Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:59:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms050906010403090108050908" X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-12-14_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1812140132 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 14:59:18 -0000 --------------ms050906010403090108050908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In addition to all of the issues that Derek Atkins pointed out, there=20 can also be data/byte alignment/offset issues if the data is packed.=20 Perhaps Derek's implication was that this concern is implicit in his=20 caution on "sizing". IMO it needs to be made explicit, to watch out for = it. A common way to ensure that issues due to packing dont crop up is to=20 /pad/ data structures sizes to ensure that structre/union variables line = up on std size/offset boundaries. reference : https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/structure-member-alignment-padding-and-data= -packing/ On 12/14/18 9:10 AM, Derek Atkins wrote: > Martin Pagel writes: >=20 >> If you start with a binary manifest however, you skip the parsing >> step, you just load the data structure into memory. The data structure= >=20 > Careful... This way lies dragons!!! Indeed, this is exactly how > various overflow issues happen. For example, if you build a manifest > for a system that has a 16-bit integer but it gets read on a system wit= h > a 32-bit integer, you now have problems. You also have potential > byte-order problems (is this a big-endian or little-endian system -- an= d > does the target match the originator?) >=20 >> is much simpler as it only handles the few fields and options the MCU >> can actually handle. Yes, you need to do some more boundary checks on >> those few fields, something the CBOR parser might have done for you in= >> the other case, but boundary checks on a simple data structure are >> pretty easy to implement. Far more important however is the fact that >> the code to enforce semantics is much smaller as it only has to deal >> with a few fields as your degree of freedom is far smaller. >=20 > It's actually NOT any easier, and I would argue you STILL have to ensur= e > proper sizing, which means lots of testing. At that point, you might a= s > well use CBOR. The various C size-specific data types can help, to som= e > degree, but the cost of being wrong is greater, and in my experience > it's EASY to get it wrong. >=20 >> If you want to use the manifest for secure boot via boot ROM, you want= >> to make sure you get 100% code coverage during testing as you can't >> update the ROM. A generic parser often won't fit in the ROM and the >> number of options you would need to verify during testing becomes >> prohibitive. >=20 > You don't need a generic parser; you can have a specific parser for the= > items you specify and just code the system to bomb out if it finds > something unexpected. This is SAFER (specifically in a secure boot > system!) than just reading in a C-data-structure and *hoping* all the > data bits line up correctly! >=20 >> Therefore I believe that for constrained MCUs, in particular secure >> boot scenarios, a binary format has clear advantages. For larger, more= >> flexible MCUs a CBOR based manifest may offer advantages. >=20 > In $DAYJOB we build secure boot solutions for timy MCUs (8051, AVR8, > MSP430, ARM, RISC-V) and I would argue that the binary format might SEE= M > to have advantages, but like I said, there be dragons! >=20 >> Martin >=20 > -derek >=20 --------------ms050906010403090108050908 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DqUwggS8MIIDpKADAgECAgEpMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMFQxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMR8wHQYD VQQKExZNSVQgTGluY29sbiBMYWJvcmF0b3J5MQwwCgYDVQQLEwNQS0kxFjAUBgNVBAMTDU1J VExMIFJvb3QgQ0EwHhcNMTMxMjE3MDAwMDAwWhcNMjAxMjMxMjM1OTU5WjBRMQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzEfMB0GA1UEChMWTUlUIExpbmNvbG4gTGFib3JhdG9yeTEMMAoGA1UECxMDUEtJMRMw 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Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:35:55 -0000 WWVzLCBDYXJzdGVuLCANCmJvdGggZm9ybWF0cyBhcmUgYmluYXJ5IGZvcm1hdHMsIHRoZSBkaWZm ZXJlbmNlIGlzIHRoYXQgdGhlIENCT1IgaXMgc2VsZi1kZXNjcmliaW5nLCBtZWFuaW5nIGVhY2gg ZmllbGQgaGFzIGEgcHJlZml4IHdoaWNoIGRlc2NyaWJlcyB0aGUgZGF0YSB0eXBlIGFuZCBmaWVs ZCBudW1iZXIgd2hlcmVhcyB0aGUgZml4ZWQgc3RydWN0dXJlIGFyZSBqdXN0IGEgcGFja2VkIGJp bmFyeSBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgc3VjaCBhcyBhIEMgc3RydWN0LiBUaGUgQ0JPUiBtYW5pZmVzdCBhcyBw cm9wb3NlZCBhbGxvd3MgZm9yIGxvdHMgb2Ygb3B0aW9ucyBhbmQgcmVxdWlyZXMgc29tZSB0eXBl IG9mIHBhcnNlciB3aGVyZWFzIHRoZSBmaXhlZCBiaW5hcnkgbWFuaWZlc3QgcHJvcG9zZXMgdGhh dCB0aGUgZGF0YSBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgaXMgYXMgY29tcGFjdCBhcyBwb3NzaWJsZSBmb3IgYSBwYXJ0 aWN1bGFyIE1DVSBzbyB0aGF0IGl0IGNhbiBiZSBtYXBwZWQgaW50byBtZW1vcnkgYW5kIGludGVy cHJldGVkIGluIHBsYWNlLg0KTWZHDQpNYXJ0aW4NCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t 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eSBPYmplY3QgUmVwcmVzZW50YXRpb24uICBJbiB3aGF0IHdheSBpcyBiaW5hcnkgYmV0dGVyIHRo YW4gYmluYXJ5Pw0KDQpHcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Dec 14 07:47:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01632130E5E for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 07:47:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otfrL6qSZwAE for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 07:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70BB8130E5D for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 07:47:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.200.7]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id wBEFlID9023167; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:47:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de (sev.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43GZgB5rNKz1Br7; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:47:18 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 16:47:18 +0100 Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 566495236.515166-82f977cb7a91b24657f4bc9f17a3b697 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <762E7832-FD81-4737-ACAD-EDDEF4D8B488@tzi.org> References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> To: Martin Pagel X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:47:29 -0000 > On Dec 14, 2018, at 16:35, Martin Pagel = wrote: >=20 > Yes, Carsten,=20 > both formats are binary formats, the difference is that the CBOR is = self-describing, meaning each field has a prefix which describes the = data type and field number whereas the fixed structure are just a packed = binary structure such as a C struct. The CBOR manifest as proposed = allows for lots of options and requires some type of parser whereas the = fixed binary manifest proposes that the data structure is as compact as = possible for a particular MCU so that it can be mapped into memory and = interpreted in place. The bespoke binary formats you are talking about are =E2=80=9Cbetter=E2=80= =9D if they are specifically tailored to: =E2=80=94 a specific process that will make use of the information, and = its requirements on what information is to be included and what is to be = left out (so you don=E2=80=99t have =E2=80=9Coptions=E2=80=9D) =E2=80=94 the sequence of processing used by this process, so we know = how to arrange the information in an easily digestible form =E2=80=94 alignment and sizing requirements of a specific MCU (that=E2=80=99= s your =E2=80=9Cpacked C struct=E2=80=9D), combined with the sizing = requirements posed by the specific process and the maximum number ranges = that will be seen in that variation of the process How many combinations of these will exist? How many of those = closely-tailored bespoke formats do we want to standardize? Once you = allow for process variation in an attempt to reduce the number of them, = you=E2=80=99ll need a =E2=80=9Cparser=E2=80=9D to skip the parts a = specific variation doesn=E2=80=99t need (you need a =E2=80=9Cparser=E2=80=9D= anyway to work with items where the number of occurrences aren=E2=80=99t = fixed). Once you allow for MCU variation, the alignment and sizing = needs to be done to the lowest common denominator of these. I=E2=80=99m = not saying all of this cannot be done, but there are an awful number of = unspoken assumptions here. Let=E2=80=99s at least drag them out into = the light. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Dec 14 08:28:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA79E13112D for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:28:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1.46, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktNHvujERWqV for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 08:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6WAqotZzDNWq for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56B4813119A for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 09:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB3D2008F; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BB35AB90; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B817B4B4; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" In-Reply-To: References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 17:45:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Martin Pagel wrote: > both formats are binary formats, the difference is that the CBOR is > self-describing, meaning each field has a prefix which describes the data > type and field number whereas the fixed structure are just a packed binary > structure such as a C struct. Unfortunately, it's only "such as", because we can not describe it as a C-struct in a portable/standard way :-( Many of us have extensive experience overlaying C-structure definitions on memory, so we can just "suck it in", but it has always resulted in issues. This is why we like CBOR. Please realize that the structure has to be processed as a series of byte copies from the buffer into *ANOTHER* structure (and/or processed and validated inline). But, let's assume that I'm willing to go with a fixed-format structure such as you have described. There are some issues that I have: 1) The "Signature" block at 64-bytes is both too small and wasteful at the same time... :-) 32-bytes is enough for ECDSA signatures. 64-bytes in inadequate (as I understand it), for a hash-based signature. I think it's critical for any device that will be in the field past 2025 to support hash-based signatures. It may have to support both simultaenously for a period of time. 2) The SignCertThumbprint at 20 bytes seems to imply at most a sha1 hash of a certificate? 3) I did not understand easily the ManifestSet Header with the multiple Manifests. Can you split the ManifestSetHeader, Footer and Manifest sections into multiple sections. Move the descriptions into a point-list after the description of the structure. Don't use "Type" Unit16, but rather more convential IETF ascii-art diagrams. (You might find the tool "asciio" very useful for this) 4) I don't think that the explanation of how the format complies to the requirements belongs in the Security Considerations. That's not what Security Considerations is for. The protocol should explain itself, and then the SC should explain how those features defeat, mitigate, or fail to mitigate various attacks. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlwT7EgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUGlAf/R1t2fOAUXVbjURFTEGY0FL+E6ybpnIwMeQoQLep68bPNumEyWYJPh6G2 Dd9JVfDZDVM8AYJTlsKA8QDjdD6rfeknjcszOJ/3ma1XPAUs0RWBHwilhhAGWiZw 9r2bTCzlbdpW4acjpENvdWIu0yZig7cmpY3l9W4Y7Ef6+wpvtTZOFDYWV0q3Az7y ur7ElwlvYPARGPP2UP9/ceZ4xY7GCWQdtW0cP7Q5Nhbyn6pWfcObPJKR+Nm8/DzG 2eGtR8uF4gKsKeUf7VvQ/fPydj5zhCTSv12+Xqcez/FPqObWkMb7wtdH1kBgj2/v +KpqbU1JHgUQ33EAkBppOJ/QPGIBeA== =X+Hx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 14 11:31:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1261312AE for ; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fCC4mDcDQ/6DDhoQUVJYWHU0Tip+PnQsd/m31Ii99dVv/M9xfkXMhy6eR3rr9e4XLhOUYL37GtuErfAGQMQoYJCYMzOGKB294krJ5jT1BxWvFNaTjzXGTx4My9wEBBdmSZn3zJ2O491GeJ5jpQnncQp831FM4ubCbsDzx9z0/b0esVAPF/2T9OQsQCIqZ7inGN/f2vZYx7BDTc0c5GjHPGL4PTH4ueur8GsJVE/NNU3tEsFxyl5BduLnyHNi1WgzrdGFlHYBTBxdWloXLvIYb9wcdOuK9QuxgMXUyyLry3NIUJJCBbGgdL3oV2BxD6Ga spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7171d79a-308e-4e95-457f-08d661fabea5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Dec 2018 19:31:28.6023 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR21MB0748 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 19:31:34 -0000 Thanks, Michael,=20 I think the greatest value of the SUIT draft is the Architecture and Inform= ation Model documents as they define the rationale for a specific set of ma= nifest fields. How you encode these fields is secondary and I believe it is= more important that these fields can get easily loaded by the MCU rather t= han coming up with a portable/standard format. I only specified 64-bytes as= an example, yes, 32-byte are enough for ECDSA. Same applies to thumbprint.= Each manufacturer (or whoever develops the boot and installation software)= would need to define the details of the manifest structure format it expec= ts including byte alignment, crypto algorithms, keys etc. I admit that the tables are difficult to decipher in text, you might want t= o review the PDF version I uploaded, but I will check out the ASCIIO tool.= =20 I will address your notes on Security Considerations with my next revision. Martin -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Friday, December 14, 2018 9:46 AM To: suit@ietf.org; dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structu= re Martin Pagel wrote: > both formats are binary formats, the difference is that the CBOR is=20 > self-describing, meaning each field has a prefix which describes the=20 > data type and field number whereas the fixed structure are just a=20 > packed binary structure such as a C struct. Unfortunately, it's only "such as", because we can not describe it as a C-struct in a portable/standard way :-( Many of us have extensive experience overlaying C-structure definitions on = memory, so we can just "suck it in", but it has always resulted in issues. This is why we like CBOR. Please realize that the structure has to be proc= essed as a series of byte copies from the buffer into *ANOTHER* structure (= and/or processed and validated inline). But, let's assume that I'm willing to go with a fixed-format structure such as you have described. There are some issues that I have: 1) The "Signature" block at 64-bytes is both too small and wasteful at the same time... :-) 32-bytes is enough for ECDSA signatures. 64-bytes in inadequate (as I understand it), for a hash-based signature. I think it's critical for any device that will be in the field past 2025 to support hash-based signatures. It may have to support both simultaenously for a period of time. 2) The SignCertThumbprint at 20 bytes seems to imply at most a sha1 hash of= a certificate? 3) I did not understand easily the ManifestSet Header with the multiple Man= ifests. Can you split the ManifestSetHeader, Footer and Manifest sections into multiple sections. Move the descriptions into a point-list after the description of the structure. Don't use "Type" Unit16, but rather more convential IETF ascii-art diagrams. (You might find the tool "asciio" very useful for this) 4) I don't think that the explanation of how the format complies to the requirements belongs in the Security Considerations. That's not what Security Considerations is for. The protocol should explain itself, and then the SC should explain how those features defeat, mitigate, or fail to mitigate various attacks. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Fri Dec 14 12:03:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9916D1311EB for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:03:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KiZsW62UB3e1 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD859130E2A for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 12:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AAC2008F; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id E2597B90; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF3F24B4; Fri, 14 Dec 2018 15:02:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Martin Pagel cc: "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" In-Reply-To: References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> <10530.1544809544@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 20:03:02 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Martin Pagel wrote: > I think the greatest value of the SUIT draft is the Architecture and > Information Model documents as they define the rationale for a specific set > of manifest fields. How you encode these fields is secondary and I believe > it is more important that these fields can get easily loaded by the MCU > rather than coming up with a portable/standard format. I only specified > 64-bytes as an example, yes, 32-byte are enough for ECDSA. Same applies to > thumbprint. Each manufacturer (or whoever develops the boot and > installation software) would need to define the details of the manifest > structure format it expects including byte alignment, crypto algorithms, > keys etc. If each manufacturer (of a chip? board? subsystem?) defines their own format, then we effectively have no standard. The value of a standard is that the rest of the infrastructure required can be amortized over many kinds of devices. Being able to audit all of the images+manifests in a central point is of extreme value. > I will address your notes on Security Considerations with my next revision. Thank you. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlwUDHEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVwTQf8DAShAQTmyOFk7wOQWvpfkJfHiVKU3r7sv4eDBt+mGpUVS9hWreSCBWNJ Q+rn1Tat+07hDFStd42lX6lNk50ebmFwnHJhdLFtuZcmVbNUieGH6UTwbNqylxA4 uhWnOhCtIckC4mTH51ugvhwcE0Y9kXvimDJ5MjpWqI/cwgrHzBSNfk78OPkxa6ww mAdZ6v8P3G42oCEPbpsfFdrXytjHqo7biyPmVg/AvdObHJv2nRUD1a9+/Xk1WsYd 3cM8NH7CtE0+OD6IwH1Rty88zgft44zo/oL5jNoEX9UjNBFRAEVrggDp1FOzq7lO TCeAwZNa/dBsvLqLJm0wLo9M1gtJ4g== =utsQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 18 08:58:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02330131143 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.104 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[64.98.48.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y4sm2240476qtc.47.2018.12.19.09.07.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Dec 2018 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:07:22 -0700 From: David Brown To: Martin Pagel Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co" Message-ID: <20181219170722.GA4018@davidb.org> References: <9919.1544647801@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 17:07:35 -0000 On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 11:22:07PM +0000, Martin Pagel wrote: >In general I actually agree with your assessment. If you have many >options, a well defined format like CBOR is much better than custom C >structures as you can use a standard, already vetted parsing library. >The standard parser library turns the CBOR data into a data >structure, in IoT usually a pretty complex C structure. As the >generic parser does not understand the semantics of the fields (only >the syntax as defined by the CDDL), the developer still has to write >code to verify a complex data structure and enforce semantics and you >still have to test/verify such code. There has been some good discussion on list about pull vs push parsing. What you are describing is known as a push parser. The parser parses the CBOR and converts it into a fairly rich data structure that describes the contents of the CBOR. This is a common approach, and is quite useful on "powerful" computers, such as host-side tooling to process the data. However, in a highly-resource-constrained device, this is not typically how it is done. Usually a "pull" parser is used, which will have entry points to effectively expect a specific (and likely limited) variant of the manifest, and simply abort if it see what is unexpected. The data is not converted to another structure, but directly parsed/used in place. For this kind of use, CBOR works very well. Draft 3 of the manifest document has an accompanied example parser that works this way. As a comparitive example, MCUboot uses a custom encoding format for the data in its manifest. It consists of a small amount of data in a fixed structure (with defined byte ordering and packing), and a set of tag-length-value items (effectively a single CBOR map, with integer keys and all values as bstrs). This is parsed with a similar custom parser for the data expected. I expect the parser for the SUIT manifest to be somewhat larger than this, but within a similar magnitude. Even this simple case of a single map, there is enough variation that a plain struct would not be appropriate to represent this information. 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hjCq8lK4sXXM/1rYxZoNVYenAQTpobuuQRICpjxVemZuok8JyUe2IWnh89bADXJg1N2dkqCFzNNIAB2/2ZAXb8+v76BvwaziNMGpaZcSmukQ17iyDDB6KTFX2QZMXXCAnaqHmY1XbpfP3kHLXdctJCTHYvh/q60E37AIXW7JuxcbfNllTsDGdiDIKesvm8jH3hG86drrLQGtmt0utGY4wc6p0iNxH1Ay3ReUGWS5AZVh0G0SbLUm+BJtc8oHnqXbCb5jJpJy5G2McqdYK+7Sa5nSJS1+89xJRjX10VNYhHXCunomcVaKqrBPxTucQ/XY spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4a01659d-e24d-41eb-6db1-08d6661f9527 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Dec 2018 02:05:15.0100 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR21MB0746 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure - pull parser X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 02:05:21 -0000 Thanks, David,=20 Yes, I am familiar with pull parsers, thanks to Brendan's example, but I'm = not sure what the advantage of CBOR encoding provides if you build a custom= parser for a particular fixed CBOR encoding/schema. Seems more complicated= (and therefore error-prone) to me than using a packed binary structure whi= ch apparently MCUboot uses. If I understand correctly, you believe that suc= h encoding wouldn't be appropriate as a manifest. I proposed to use such bi= nary encoding in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pagel-suit-manifest-00.= =20 I agree that there will be powerful and flexible MCUs which have capabiliti= es where a CBOR based flexibility would provide benefits, but for simple c= onstrained devices, I think there is a benefit to use the same simple lean = packed encoding for both the boot and update process, or am I missing some = important aspect? If so, can you provide an example? Best Martin -----Original Message----- From: David Brown =20 Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 9:07 AM To: Martin Pagel Cc: Michael Richardson ; suit@ietf.org; dev-mcuboot@= lists.runtime.co Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structu= re On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 11:22:07PM +0000, Martin Pagel wrote: >In general I actually agree with your assessment. If you have many=20 >options, a well defined format like CBOR is much better than custom C=20 >structures as you can use a standard, already vetted parsing library. >The standard parser library turns the CBOR data into a data structure,=20 >in IoT usually a pretty complex C structure. As the generic parser does=20 >not understand the semantics of the fields (only the syntax as defined=20 >by the CDDL), the developer still has to write code to verify a complex=20 >data structure and enforce semantics and you still have to test/verify=20 >such code. There has been some good discussion on list about pull vs push parsing. Wh= at you are describing is known as a push parser. The parser parses the CBO= R and converts it into a fairly rich data structure that describes the cont= ents of the CBOR. This is a common approach, and is quite useful on "power= ful" computers, such as host-side tooling to process the data. However, in a highly-resource-constrained device, this is not typically how= it is done. Usually a "pull" parser is used, which will have entry points= to effectively expect a specific (and likely limited) variant of the manifest, and simply abort if it see what is unexpe= cted. The data is not converted to another structure, but directly parsed/= used in place. For this kind of use, CBOR works very well. Draft 3 of the= manifest document has an accompanied example parser that works this way. As a comparitive example, MCUboot uses a custom encoding format for the dat= a in its manifest. It consists of a small amount of data in a fixed struct= ure (with defined byte ordering and packing), and a set of tag-length-value= items (effectively a single CBOR map, with integer keys and all values as = bstrs). This is parsed with a similar custom parser for the data expected.= I expect the parser for the SUIT manifest to be somewhat larger than this= , but within a similar magnitude. Even this simple case of a single map, t= here is enough variation that a plain struct would not be appropriate to re= present this information. 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aXBwZWQgYXMgaXQgaGFzIHNvbWUgaW52YWxpZCBmb3JtYXR0aW5nDQo+IHdpdGggcmVnYXJkcyB0 byB3aG8gc2F5cyB3aGF0Lg0KPiANCj4gV2l0aCByZWdhcmRzDQo+IEZyYW5rIEF1ZHVuDQo= From nobody Fri Dec 21 10:06:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E9D130E4D for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:06:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_CSS=0.1, URIBL_CSS_A=0.1] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ihtfp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VY3yVPn5H1xG for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org (MAIL2.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B15112875B for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C109FE2048; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.ihtfp.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail2.ihtfp.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-maia, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22635-09; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from securerf.ihtfp.org (unknown [8.46.76.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mocana.ihtfp.org", Issuer "IHTFP Consulting Certification Authority" (not verified)) by mail2.ihtfp.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C982E2047; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:05:49 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ihtfp.com; s=default; t=1545415552; bh=vZ+Ne1SSuHjOFwVGKGx3PTwZha6GC997AxBhCuCf5YI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=OtZ2bApbvCX52Y4p+Z9EQslHJpwUCHOo4nw0A814Aec7+dT5o9BkLGJKslA3JT9CI zpQ4Ty4Zz6dAnX9rEFjCDQ38v/NYmZprzL1du9aIVFgY9LQW8hKL29YxxDFYFEsmMF Qjs/6y7A2WLzBbuoyukj/PZEI0bySohI86M3Tizk= Received: (from warlord@localhost) by securerf.ihtfp.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id wBLI5ZiW008654; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:05:35 -0500 From: Derek Atkins To: Martin Pagel Cc: David Brown , Michael Richardson , "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" References: Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:05:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Martin Pagel's message of "Thu, 20 Dec 2018 02:05:14 +0000") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure - pull parser X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:06:09 -0000 Martin Pagel writes: > Thanks, David, > Yes, I am familiar with pull parsers, thanks to Brendan's example, but > I'm not sure what the advantage of CBOR encoding provides if you build > a custom parser for a particular fixed CBOR encoding/schema. Seems The benefit is that you can create standardized server software that can read the manifest to any particular MCU client without requiring special per-MCU software. The cost to the MCU to process a CBOR-pull is relatively low. But the cost to a server to deal with dozens (or more!) of uniquely-defined MCU static manifest structures would be extremely high. -derek -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Fri Dec 21 10:25:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C4C130E4D for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:25:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_CSS=0.1, URIBL_CSS_A=0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gzXeN5pYUC36 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92DF81277BB for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE93620008; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 35EE4DD6; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34924C52; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 13:25:47 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Derek Atkins cc: Martin Pagel , David Brown , "suit\@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot\@lists.runtime.co" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure - pull parser X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 18:25:55 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Derek Atkins wrote: >> Thanks, David, Yes, I am familiar with pull parsers, thanks to >> Brendan's example, but I'm not sure what the advantage of CBOR >> encoding provides if you build a custom parser for a particular fixed >> CBOR encoding/schema. Seems > The benefit is that you can create standardized server software that > can read the manifest to any particular MCU client without requiring > special per-MCU software. > The cost to the MCU to process a CBOR-pull is relatively low. But the > cost to a server to deal with dozens (or more!) of uniquely-defined M= CU > static manifest structures would be extremely high. Since I think it's unlikely to happen, there would be a many servers, with the result that at least one or more systems would not have a server available, and would never get upgraded. That's an incredibly high cost: if that results in a compromised network/building/airport/etc. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlwdMCoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUgTQf/YtVxpGde/H+ilwAVBjR4aMxZZjHSJp2XRvEh2LHtzpNxfQ/+5Mwvrmk7 H8CCdiriN81ZhssmIonrdj4ZdU8DfXyUsfwyV5RYulc3bqGjQhde2rGfKOygWxQa trDT7wMLPH/E55LRTTybmoYK8BeUi8ConuMq1jUZ7a9OT/GlWgjtQOdTqTR2Lhkq v/vTuJh+PaPIdEk71xwEAdWZ+PqTFCfXLeBRXGNCfCF5CEthmK0iXKo04332mfPa Qf6eeDtVa1vaR38o5/c42zaqU+EqAWmmcvtBREQE+AYnlO3kT9C/xKQ3vI1YEzFz rJCsXLUPvXdvVi65Gk6ontbqxi72Gw== =IfgW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 21 12:20:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDEB130E9C for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=nKvfV73C66a6OqraMhvDOUp3VAar2Lypg1vy0qGfA6U=; b=cYVKD/bf1MOfd5Rq1NIN1VQ9GC5aQZDmeXksrny4xHAiU4a0NCyXVdV20LaQ8sGyNeI+fCu1WpUDtFnJy+XgOy6Eqg6Mp83tWe5D+Q6qQbf4Y8dMMIITiy3WYoilC72acEqL39d4y3Pkp+AIhlc5iU6gbo3xPNFz+hvjND6E+CY= Received: from MWHPR21MB0703.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.175.142.13) by MWHPR21MB0189.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.52.135) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1471.4; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:20:28 +0000 Received: from MWHPR21MB0703.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b563:bb7e:aa34:9142]) by MWHPR21MB0703.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b563:bb7e:aa34:9142%7]) with mapi id 15.20.1471.012; Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:20:28 +0000 From: Martin Pagel To: Derek Atkins CC: "suit@ietf.org" , "dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co" Thread-Topic: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure - pull parser Thread-Index: AdSYCHGNvZso6Id+TN2TeD47dEfJkQBT2m/TAAKCtRA= Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:20:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: eCT2PQDWG70SL/AG7sHjRTPbCQ91FiFnGDhMsdT+By2jM35mrkcYZodAs+yRWXs6FOKuS4X6LILubvOm+ldRxSzV6Njws+UMWIVU21X3SSAeqLAutQHBl6sRhUJDDgf8hOXIpcXrOv4lSDKXgsAIXPMAsIPxbp3lWJFkfNg3O8qT7ZaiYlkLUP2XUH/ailUdNRQG55MIlzY4dvRqyKvEPFR1nVjFuQsvvtHC1iibbmYzc6bpP11bRRNoxn5ISVRYzdsOcrndK1H/D8/7sfZaxvNhayObX6sDZ5f2LuOOVVafoOOMqnLA/PJi29TD2402 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 212a98b5-d804-499b-94c2-08d66781bf83 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Dec 2018 20:20:27.9496 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0189 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structure - pull parser X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 20:20:33 -0000 Yes, Derek,=20 CBOR may make it a bit easier to encode the manifest for various MCUs, but = I believe the data encoding is only a small part of the server's responsibi= lity. The server still needs to understand what file types, crypto algorith= ms, keys, image formats etc a particular MCU supports as the current manife= st draft allows for a lot of options. If you use a pull parser on the MCU, = then the server also needs to understand the particular CBOR schema that a= particular MCU expects as otherwise the pull parser will reject it. For th= at to happen, the server will need to maintain some type of capabilities/sc= hema database for each MCU it can update. Once you define the SUIT fields (= as defined in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-suit-information-= model/ and https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pagel-suit-manifest-00 ), I wo= uld argue that it would be fairly simple for such capabilities database to = also keep track of where/how these fields go into a packed binary structure= .=20 Best Martin -----Original Message----- From: Derek Atkins =20 Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 10:06 AM To: Martin Pagel Cc: David Brown ; Michael Richardson ; suit@ietf.org; dev-mcuboot@lists.runtime.co Subject: Re: [Suit] self-describing format vs fixed/binary manifest structu= re - pull parser Martin Pagel writes: > Thanks, David, > Yes, I am familiar with pull parsers, thanks to Brendan's example, but=20 > I'm not sure what the advantage of CBOR encoding provides if you build=20 > a custom parser for a particular fixed CBOR encoding/schema. Seems The benefit is that you can create standardized server software that can re= ad the manifest to any particular MCU client without requiring special per-= MCU software. The cost to the MCU to process a CBOR-pull is relatively low. But the cost= to a server to deal with dozens (or more!) of uniquely-defined MCU static = manifest structures would be extremely high. -derek --=20 Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlo= ok.com/?url=3Dwww.ihtfp.com&data=3D02%7C01%7CMartin.Pagel%40microsoft.c= om%7C966abe35aed74cd400fe08d6676efc22%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C= 1%7C1%7C636810123718776125&sdata=3D5EyurzEMysogbmeae1gDT1hbD4A%2FARs%2B= xv%2B%2B5w%2Fu9XI%3D&reserved=3D0 Computer and Internet Security Consultant From nobody Sat Dec 22 14:59:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF64130EDE; Sat, 22 Dec 2018 14:59:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org, ekr@rtfm.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.89.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154551958964.14483.16156854199900738339.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 14:59:49 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] suit - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 22:59:50 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Russell Housley, a Chair of the suit working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Software Updates for Internet of Things Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Russ Housley Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: ipwave lamps stir ipsecme tls sipbrandy curdle sacm mile teep core ace acme saag Second Priority: t2trg lwig 6lo cfrg perc cbor dprive secdispatch sidrops tcpinc Third Priority: v6ops 6man intarea uta People who must be present: Russell Housley Eric Rescorla Dave Thaler Hannes Tschofenig David Waltermire Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------