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Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:01:18 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: David Brown , Emmanuel Baccelli CC: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper Thread-Index: AdVCMRfQE3vhkyfhQmmfI5GkmMK4PBjMU3yAAFIRTAAADk90gABShczg Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 10:01:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: edd5909d-0199-42c3-9add-9c7f066c366b.1 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [80.92.119.90] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: a746a323-f984-4eb4-6927-08d776456dcd X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR08MB2925:|VI1PR08MB3647: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;OLM:10000; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR08MB3647 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 10:01:34 -0000 Hi David, This is good feedback and we will have to take that into account when we w= ork on the new version of the manifest generator/parser. The code Emmanuel referenced still implements the old version of the manife= st format and this year we switched to a new format, which will need to be = implemented / is implemented right now. Ciao Hannes -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 7:36 PM To: Emmanuel Baccelli Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! > > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-authors: > please correct me if I'm wrong). This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code however= they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this code is not use= ful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have reference code, it= will need to be licensed differently. > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not > limited to -- LGPL > code) and they are quite happy with it. I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL licensed em= bedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are large number= s of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code. One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 license a= re incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single prod= uct. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, this means I'll = have to be doing an implementation from scratch. It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would like to= see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, and th= e licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for that. David _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:20:18 +0000 From: Brendan Moran To: David Brown , Emmanuel Baccelli CC: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper Thread-Index: AQHVpWJvYH911LBnCkW8DT6MW2cO1aeiCpEAgABye4CABHliQA== Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:20:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 23a49f54-4208-4266-a7fb-9cd0325970b7.1 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Brendan.Moran@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [217.140.106.49] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: e838fa9e-d7e1-4cfb-addb-08d7773b289c X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DB6PR0801MB2120:|AM6PR08MB3815: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;OLM:10000; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR08MB3815 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 15:20:32 -0000 Hi David, The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developing a man= ifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same license. Best Regards, Brendan -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 To: Emmanuel Baccelli Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! > > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-authors: > please correct me if I'm wrong). This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code however= they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this code is not use= ful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have reference code, it= will need to be licensed differently. > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not > limited to -- LGPL > code) and they are quite happy with it. I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL licensed em= bedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are large number= s of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code. One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 license a= re incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single prod= uct. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, this means I'll = have to be doing an implementation from scratch. It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would like to= see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, and th= e licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for that. David _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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LCB1c2UgaXQgZm9yIGFueSBwdXJwb3NlLCBvciBzdG9yZSBvciBjb3B5IHRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlv biBpbiBhbnkgbWVkaXVtLiBUaGFuayB5b3UuDQo= From nobody Mon Dec 2 08:51:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B617A120091; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:51:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNSWIOjLRlku; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE057120077; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 08:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D8C3818F; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7534B784; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:51:27 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" , sacm , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 16:51:32 -0000 --==-=-= Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brendan Moran wrote: > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not sure that I > understand the goal of using a CWT for a CoSWID or a SUIT > manifest. Would you be able to elaborate on why we should use CWT? I'm also in need of a diagram of how CoSWID and SUIT manifests and RATS EAT interact. I feel that the (optional) layer of signature in the CoSWID is causing us to lose the forest for the trees... --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Signature -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-=-- --==-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3lQQ8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXz8Af+KuddrZ9KJe8P35jj0YrZs3EJqEj23GB/bQhDIKgGe8D4txFukrIsnoy+ a44xgvVHWW7Y0sP8fn6KVuTW+5dp3/dqTS9jFECmsfnr3tGJTybdaob3fpWVf8Gg VVsl8lP93akO/9k4CSKfqDW/Uq0G4DCzeKuejEdT624ASqV7RA8Tc5/LCLVbNvv2 xiMngVT6X09A6UGOqR/lFn5qFnuv46DfJnY/OxNhHZNAUV3w0RwuWjOaXUAcvvTy o2u5GwjExG/Ihak4kbgxpdbaIGoeNVyozpdYcGWp2FQxcA/zttQyU/jNcWs+nJSO 3O9An0WaJRW9JOFg6tcoDKEQ3YVUhw== =Dln0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==-=-=-- From nobody Mon Dec 2 10:15:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECE8120089; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eY3CmIkijHMq; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92042120072; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id i4so353110otr.3; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nRXjUnDiozGJt3wJJxdDlqh0+o+pJ/bWeRMThIrWxEg=; b=ZwhcRCsWY5pem6vlEb9QTHjUuQ8vvgBJ2NBJq+H9aTLGjfhWFTvSxPfqk97LKyH4Ky z6CCBzi6Huov3uNQiv61UR5S0y6nRWoHOLlVTRuMIUqQaLdJAoSC2dNPBOqBj0ptzujp rhoH+AWqy+7Mdj3uoHFCKbeHAa+wTcgS8KFNMmI0hE4Ma5hxdXSzIpzJr3uj4ODe4HKZ PwRmQXd9H/0fe5jBjmpJ37cvVxlxF6hVmfJ/+TCmSomFgc+G2oheX7i+0toqnD9hmtd6 /q2GVc732nOsKnVZ9HFlkxGtirBqdr6thwSxr75cRiBs1fJ5BahRP8cQrBjB5mbVSUBG 3znA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nRXjUnDiozGJt3wJJxdDlqh0+o+pJ/bWeRMThIrWxEg=; b=JznB7M+VYvfq2bEdUszXHt7pA1n5n2BscAoOJZ7NsOr9epx6V+RzUKXe8qkh9mfo+F kkMqohTK7uKfoqgEN0PP1p0dav/O1VxPS8BBFPahP0A4M0diSpkdLTgBw2Kivf615Yoc eqJ9CW48VQowcg3YR/kVdXM0LbYBlmzQSHKdkXS8qiBG/0Afc7qCAnH1MJBvXZJEuoq3 LDXhok5Ehp5F6bKNSqp//5bdGUBlrkM6/z6zgzA7hwlqE0V1FT9ZNeUdNV0Bb61efmOz uQ9I/+eZKGElwejkmajOP9RDp5wG1KZued98LSNIu7G0sVoRc1pTTlTXcWg74m1Ec6OS Hi2w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7u2B6L1kqCHrbe6xYRIi9mM2W97nRLneiDg0gRlLR/gDgeNz7 yzzeij6v0yD1RZv8MDptcx9qCa+0LtuFwdtoh5wegHIg X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzLsz7Jnw+5xxkKUlH3SA+EwQH5YbByc2DlUsD02LF2cTq8YBvbIJz8KCz8FlIsFk5QMWT4uSEvbl8pmsY8QaQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:5902:: with SMTP id t2mr290604oth.151.1575310544869; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:15:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27435.1575305487@localhost> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 13:15:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "suit@ietf.org" , sacm , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000701df70598bc918b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 18:15:47 -0000 --000000000000701df70598bc918b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:51 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brendan Moran wrote: > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not sure that I > > understand the goal of using a CWT for a CoSWID or a SUIT > > manifest. Would you be able to elaborate on why we should use CWT? > > I'm also in need of a diagram of how CoSWID and SUIT manifests and RATS EAT > interact. I feel that the (optional) layer of signature in the CoSWID is > causing us to lose the forest for the trees... > I see why you might want a CoSWID or SWID in a CWT or EAT, but don't see the mapping for SUIT being preferred to CoSWID or SWID. Best regards, Kathleen > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > -- Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000701df70598bc918b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:51 AM Micha= el Richardson <mcr+ietf@sande= lman.ca> wrote:

Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not su= re that I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > understand the goal of using a CWT for a CoSWID or a SUI= T
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > manifest. Would you be able to elaborate on why we shoul= d use CWT?

I'm also in need of a diagram of how CoSWID and SUIT manifests and RATS= EAT
interact.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I feel that the (optional) layer of signature in the = CoSWID is
causing us to lose the forest for the trees...

I see why you might want a CoSWID or SWID in a CWT or EAT, but don&= #39;t see the mapping for SUIT being preferred to CoSWID or SWID.

Best regards,
Kathleen=C2=A0

--
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IoT architect=C2=A0 =C2=A0[
]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [




--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--000000000000701df70598bc918b-- From nobody Mon Dec 2 15:58:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D3712008F for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:58:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L1Hly54k_-xH for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89E92120058 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 15:58:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 21so1626643ljr.0 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 15:58:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SapTPaaoew5LGBHYqHDIgSU8/D9Q936kDUh61HalSzA=; b=1RtBO6c1lrppd6plBzTJgh5/SK9Ti/PhX8IqUu3eN/LSuoZgRG4UfdNrbTsOHMk0Im +2BaW1ddQzZ8ezXafP1cOwqsFrRY7ClXW6dEOkPR/WGrn63LAnN5fPNf7TIdT4dcGtpK lsCC8wiJTYXYROyoHWIInko7MI5T6CVKcgJLNZniYOkJa9jam0Jl2324NGHxKrAYjkRG bGA4ddIxjzoZQ/1v8qtLxnYAXoWv5KtKXYydIy+9vIQDY5gHgX+mHy5ZtZR8Xb2hE7K5 c5iqm3b/IbBSXxVDh/mdfoasFl8T45b60UsvjYQhl1tCAo+y4y7ugAZmZIgsrF1h3f7q 7QpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SapTPaaoew5LGBHYqHDIgSU8/D9Q936kDUh61HalSzA=; b=NIB5xZ1nVa/8nDVw87SuJC6STZUNr7PevFJuVORf8RkXriKks1CWcsMEmbAgZTvB/K SpI/IFg2MriyhInIlwFF+dzaJG7gR270tbFNVoBME/mhLy51NciVcuZ8YFLPGfrVWTQB 5W6REu55eu4lJeH1M9XXETy4TUjMjtpI2RamdjaWcFKMNC3ZUD/OtyBy84KcfiNqK3hH tavcGLXJZ9ghhDeY1pw5kWHmP9FHKzVI3Esz6GgmKDSY4WHEJCOlhDUJhf9xYi7CPaQX CrWgCH7ZCaz2jz6tpmNGTwrmmZj5YgASqOcOBXA+y3eL3hH7aMW/TnGj0bzloRUo1mZr YX8g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV9t56emxVpL6uPPNbugvcKvaRZ9+EDLILelciusUi1A1wApHX+ ZP8YiEVO+saA7o7QRf17HvWI8XdGVx8Mt7Mr6RGc+g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw99g53PH4D2eLLpW6Kp3wUxeU5pALXuF+8DnY0iTrhaLHxrtfo7XD13NDDrV7mN4s4ndDtSRaRCnioM4kXZTQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9093:: with SMTP id l19mr679439ljg.235.1575331114637; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 15:58:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:57:57 +0900 Message-ID: To: Brendan Moran Cc: David Brown , Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007defd50598c15b07" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 23:58:39 -0000 --0000000000007defd50598c15b07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Hannes, What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicitly stated in the paper... Thanks! Simon On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran wrote: > Hi David, > > The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. > I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developing a > manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same license. > > Best Regards, > Brendan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown > Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 > To: Emmanuel Baccelli > Cc: suit@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > > > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded > > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. > > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! > > > > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-authors: > > please correct me if I'm wrong). > > This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code > however they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this code is > not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have reference > code, it will need to be licensed differently. > > > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not > > limited to -- LGPL > > code) and they are quite happy with it. > > I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL licensed > embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are large > numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code. > > One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache > 2.0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 license > are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single > product. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, this means > I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch. > > It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would like > to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, and > the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for that. > > David > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --0000000000007defd50598c15b07 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Hannes,

What transport did you use? = I could not find that information explicitly stated in the paper...

Thanks!

Simon

On Tue, Dec 3= , 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
Hi David,

The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developi= ng a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same licen= se.

Best Regards,
Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit <s= uit-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36
To: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded=
> into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2].
> Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome!
>
> Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-autho= rs:
> please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is fine.=C2=A0 The authors of the code are free to license the code ho= wever they wish.=C2=A0 I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e code, it will need to be licensed differently.

> Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not
> limited to -- LGPL
> code) and they are quite happy with it.

I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are larg= e numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code.
One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license.=C2=A0 Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 lice= nse are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single= product.=C2=A0 Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, th= is means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch.

It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, an= d the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for tha= t.

David

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--0000000000007defd50598c15b07-- From nobody Mon Dec 2 17:38:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089831200E9; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:38:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9ciyeVsvsTG; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga11.intel.com (mga11.intel.com [192.55.52.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64957120033; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:38:30 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga006.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.20]) by fmsmga102.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Dec 2019 17:38:30 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,270,1571727600"; d="scan'208,217";a="412003141" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga006.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 02 Dec 2019 17:38:29 -0800 Received: from orsmsx163.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.88) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:38:29 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.161]) by ORSMSX163.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:38:29 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , sacm Thread-Topic: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT Thread-Index: AQHVqTyPSn+xiLGOUUe3g1nv9QM4IKenoj8A Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 01:38:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.58] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F7783A24302A4D6B90309AFAD71E4597intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 01:38:33 -0000 --_000_F7783A24302A4D6B90309AFAD71E4597intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RUFUIGlzIGEgcGF5bG9hZCB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBleGNoYW5nZWQgYmV0d2VlbiBhbiBBdHRlc3Rl 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyS-5_8AbjIy for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 18:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa07-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 365271200EC for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 18:19:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id bxkViCQ3mcEJHbxkViikUB; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 19:17:12 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <091DFC7E-E49A-4B32-8F29-576910AF0891@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4767A4F-7585-470C-872E-07BDD517CA07" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 18:17:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , sacm To: "Smith, Ned" References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPzLAI0cFgHKKyVo9TBr+xuYy3qowyHtUf34rYpGxrs09hTwrUw1tpMAyKDSLAFUsGosOLu9KIiXS8c41ckLSTfDjxFdIJXlBGEX9rLrIgjV6N8+GyAR nB0KyZox1lxx1VlLOYpKK9EV1Ly7f/fEOXw4DqBnAbTqs0g4kWKT4cqZFgGxkdVDNU8LQXGLsJwBD3UzKmGZtBGGsQB51htQkcjf3yFdntrxcHFglMScpcpC A4llEIGMWlRhHPnn26EE5A9Fy1bjfWUIaKD2Sb1X/BOHy3bouhP9wcM0/gpCgoXHBZuDYUevlc3mtFEJamlxuQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 02:19:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B4767A4F-7585-470C-872E-07BDD517CA07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ned, I think of CoSWID has a =E2=80=9Cdata structure=E2=80=9D or such that = can get defined once and re used for various use cases, attestation = related and not attestation related. EAT is one attestation use case. = Maybe evidence is another attestation use case, maybe not. There are = certainly the use cases it was created for before EAT came along. > On Dec 2, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > EAT is a payload that can be exchanged between an Attester-Verifier or = Verifier-RelyingParty. > [Co]SWID is a payload that can be exchanged between Endorser-Verifier = or (possibly?) Attester-Verifier. > =20 > It is the latter use case context (Attester-Verifier) that is = potentially confusing because it presumes the [Co]SWID payload should be = wrapped by an EAT. In EAT, I think of a CoSWID appears as a claim along side the other = claims. It=E2=80=99s a big complicated / nest claim, but it is a claim. = I don=E2=80=99t think of it as wrapped. It is necessary to sit along = side the other claims in EAT for EAT to do its job. > =20 > The architecture slides presented at Singapore showed = Attester-Verifier interactions supporting multiple signed formats. = Therefore, it could be reasonable to consider [Co]SWID as yet another = payload format the Verifier needs to handle. It doesn=E2=80=99t seem helpful to create another attestation format = that is marginally different and confusingly related to EAT. Maybe there are use cases other than attestation where a CoSWID is = signed CWT-style, but I think they are other use cases for other working = groups to decide on. > =20 > Another consideration might question whether it makes sense for = [Co]SWID to be regarded as Evidence. Maybe it should be restricted to = Endorsements? There are clear EAT-based use cases that want SW inventory in the = attestation. ARM=E2=80=99s PSA is like this. Pretty sure the hum in = Singapore was in favor of that. Seems also that Cisco wants that for = their routers. So, definitely not restricted to Endorsements. > =20 > The SWID documentation seems to suggest that SWID structures should be = maintained on the Attester and updated when SW/FW updates occur. = Possibly, the installer is working with two objects SUIT manifests and = [Co]SWID structures keeping both maintained on the Attester? If this is = the case, then it might make sense to consider unifying them? That might = be the context for some of the list activity surrounding SUIT manifest = and [Co]SWID? I have little opinion about whether SUIT manifest and CoSWID should be = merged somehow, but it seems that SWID and CoSWID have massive use case = outside of SUIT and Attestation. I would hope you could create a CoSWID to represent the SW on the MacOS = device I=E2=80=99m using right now. It would be a big one. It certainly = doesn=E2=80=99t use SUIT and never will. > =20 > The important distinction from the perspective of the RATS = architecture is that Endorsements (signed by a mfg =E2=80=93 aka = =E2=80=9CEndorser=E2=80=9D) are still Endorsements even if they are = stored on the Attester and conveyed to a Verifier over a conveyance = protocol that supports conveyance of Evidence. Evidence and Endorsements = are signed by different keys. How they are conveyed isn=E2=80=99t = interesting to the Verifier per se. except where freshness is a = consideration. Yes. :-) Never occurred to me that Endorsements would flow that way, but seems = like a useful option! (That said, I=E2=80=99m not sure that the format of an Endorsement is in = our charter) LL > -Ned > =20 > From: Suit > on = behalf of Kathleen Moriarty > > Date: Monday, December 2, 2019 at 10:16 AM > To: Michael Richardson > > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " >, "suit@ietf.org " = >, sacm > > Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 11:51 AM Michael Richardson = > wrote: >>=20 >> Brendan Moran > = wrote: >> > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not sure that I >> > understand the goal of using a CWT for a CoSWID or a SUIT >> > manifest. Would you be able to elaborate on why we should use = CWT? >>=20 >> I'm also in need of a diagram of how CoSWID and SUIT manifests and = RATS EAT >> interact. I feel that the (optional) layer of signature in the = CoSWID is >> causing us to lose the forest for the trees... > =20 > I see why you might want a CoSWID or SWID in a CWT or EAT, but don't = see the mapping for SUIT being preferred to CoSWID or SWID. > =20 > Best regards, > Kathleen=20 >>=20 >> -- >> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh = networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca = http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on = rails [ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Michael Richardson >, Sandelman Software Works >> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = >=20 > =20 > --=20 > =20 > Best regards, > Kathleen > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = --Apple-Mail=_B4767A4F-7585-470C-872E-07BDD517CA07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Ned,

I think of = CoSWID has a =E2=80=9Cdata structure=E2=80=9D or such that can get = defined once and re used for various use cases, attestation related and = not attestation related. EAT is one attestation use case. Maybe evidence = is another attestation use case, maybe not. There are certainly the use = cases it was created for before EAT came along.

On Dec = 2, 2019, at 5:38 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

EAT is a = payload that can be exchanged between an Attester-Verifier or = Verifier-RelyingParty.
[Co]SWID is a payload that can be exchanged between = Endorser-Verifier or (possibly?) Attester-Verifier.
 
It is the = latter use case context (Attester-Verifier) that is potentially = confusing because it presumes the [Co]SWID payload should be wrapped by = an EAT.

In = EAT, I think of a CoSWID appears as a claim along side the other claims. = It=E2=80=99s a big complicated / nest claim, but it is a claim. I = don=E2=80=99t think of it as wrapped.  It is necessary to sit along = side the other claims in EAT for EAT to do its job.


 
The architecture slides presented at = Singapore showed Attester-Verifier interactions supporting multiple = signed formats. Therefore, it could be reasonable to consider [Co]SWID = as yet another payload format the Verifier needs to = handle.

It = doesn=E2=80=99t seem helpful to create another attestation format that = is marginally different and confusingly related to EAT.

Maybe there are use cases other than attestation = where a CoSWID is signed CWT-style, but I think they are other use cases = for other working groups to decide on.


 
Another = consideration might question whether it makes sense for [Co]SWID to be = regarded as Evidence. Maybe it should be restricted to = Endorsements?

There are clear EAT-based use cases that want SW = inventory in the attestation. ARM=E2=80=99s PSA is like this. Pretty = sure the hum in Singapore was in favor of that. Seems also that Cisco = wants that for their routers. So, definitely not restricted to = Endorsements.


 
The SWID = documentation seems to suggest that SWID structures should be maintained = on the Attester and updated when SW/FW updates occur. Possibly, the = installer is working with two objects SUIT manifests and [Co]SWID = structures keeping both maintained on the Attester? If this is the case, = then it might make sense to consider unifying them? That might be the = context for some of the list activity surrounding SUIT manifest and = [Co]SWID?

I = have little opinion about whether SUIT manifest and CoSWID should be = merged somehow, but it seems that SWID and CoSWID have massive use case = outside of SUIT and Attestation.

I = would hope you could create a CoSWID to represent the SW on the MacOS = device I=E2=80=99m using right now. It would be a big one. It certainly = doesn=E2=80=99t use SUIT and never will.

 
The = important distinction from the perspective of the RATS architecture is = that Endorsements (signed by a mfg =E2=80=93 aka =E2=80=9CEndorser=E2=80=9D= ) are still Endorsements even if they are stored on the Attester and = conveyed to a Verifier over a conveyance protocol that supports = conveyance of Evidence. Evidence and Endorsements are signed by = different keys. How they are conveyed isn=E2=80=99t interesting to the = Verifier per se. except where freshness is a = consideration.

Yes. :-)

Never = occurred to me that Endorsements would flow that way, but seems like a = useful option!

(That said, I=E2=80=99m= not sure that the format of an Endorsement is in our = charter)

LL




-Ned
 
From: Suit <suit-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, December 2, = 2019 at 10:16 AM
To: Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] = [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
 
 
 
On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 = at 11:51 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> = wrote:

Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
  =   > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm not sure that = I
    > understand the goal of using a CWT = for a CoSWID or a SUIT
    > manifest. Would = you be able to elaborate on why we should use CWT?

I'm also in need of a diagram of how CoSWID and SUIT = manifests and RATS EAT
interact.   I feel that = the (optional) layer of signature in the CoSWID is
causing = us to lose the forest for the trees...
 
I see why you might = want a CoSWID or SWID in a CWT or EAT, but don't see the mapping for = SUIT being preferred to CoSWID or SWID.
 
Best regards,
Kathleen 

--
]  =              Never tell me the = odds!                 | = ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, = Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT = architect   [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        = |   ruby on rails    [




--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

 
-- 
 
Best regards,
Kathleen
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
= --Apple-Mail=_B4767A4F-7585-470C-872E-07BDD517CA07-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 00:37:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDD51201B7 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:37:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pZQgFn4pHduo for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4629A120131 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id g18so2151598otj.13 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 00:37:31 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9igSzV8Q9XPlt9/7pt8tdcYpmr6buDuKKm4UNuujLQI=; b=DmLTDEeqxJiTIvUxkGJ9uORdvu1dXENqiR4b/pB+SpSF2z5kJaZ6sgv9EQ7gBtqve4 9W7woQXg8NBdPU80iWke7/SStc4yjpNXfscpQC1OUdP3PdXhwhM6kt5fTjqXZWxiGyeu mER4eBrSdtHk7pcmxB9ss6As1612xPf2HI1MWCpnbO6eXHYKiw8Vy2SAKp/Exhmiokli a6Txj/bOdvwOz3Z+vLfq23T5A6M5+oXQgN9/VjMQCBLcy2m61vgw2pOSYmDTIH3e/jWw jOdT6bMbzfwlMPrILQx/qPxXy0D+0I4l3HuGVSN/XKvF31gJxFlDTVjY3S65FG7qRNOn HfcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+geZjKYyIOnWa1FWR2dx89LgBWx9Gso+s2HK2KbJImAGKWuCP CPpcpGlhHiAkoBiAMeEUmy5YGx8mF+EIrn1hPxQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz6FIDuL0BLZqJBf/bi5fMlArLXcBDF60zebLIIhRuGGJaUolu1agykt861sSZ5Gsnv2QN0xfGMwT1lndy5b+0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:1295:: with SMTP id g21mr2289927otg.301.1575362250199; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 00:37:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:37:19 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Cc: Brendan Moran , David Brown , "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000050d9ac0598c89bd6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:37:33 -0000 --00000000000050d9ac0598c89bd6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Szymon in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. However the open source RIOT implementation which stemmed out also works out-of-the-box on other link layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] ...). Cheers, Emmanuel [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/tree/master/examples/suit_update [3] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/pull/12391 On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik wrot= e: > Hi Hannes, > > What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicitly > stated in the paper... > > Thanks! > > Simon > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran > wrote: > >> Hi David, >> >> The manifest generator that I released previously was apache >> 2.0-licensed. I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also >> developing a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the >> same license. >> >> Best Regards, >> Brendan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown >> Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 >> To: Emmanuel Baccelli >> Cc: suit@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper >> >> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: >> >> > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded >> > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. >> > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and >> > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. >> > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! >> > >> > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code >> co-authors: >> > please correct me if I'm wrong). >> >> This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code >> however they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is >> not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e >> code, it will need to be licensed differently. >> >> > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT >> > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not >> > limited to -- LGPL >> > code) and they are quite happy with it. >> >> I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL licensed >> embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are large >> numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code. >> >> One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apach= e >> 2.0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 licen= se >> are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single >> product. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, this mean= s >> I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch. >> >> It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would like >> to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, a= nd >> the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for th= at. >> >> David >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Suit mailing list >> Suit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy t= he >> information in any medium. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Suit mailing list >> Suit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >> > --00000000000050d9ac0598c89bd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Szymon

in the paper [1] f= or our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 8= 02.15.4 low power radio.

However the open source R= IOT implementation which stemmed out also works out-of-the-box on other lin= k layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] ...).

On Tue, Dec 3, 2= 019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvair.com> wrote:
Hi Hannes,

What transport did you use? I could not find that information expli= citly stated in the paper...

Thanks!
Simon

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.= com> wrote:
Hi David,

The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developi= ng a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same licen= se.

Best Regards,
Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit <s= uit-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36
To: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded=
> into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2].
> Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome!
>
> Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-autho= rs:
> please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is fine.=C2=A0 The authors of the code are free to license the code ho= wever they wish.=C2=A0 I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e code, it will need to be licensed differently.

> Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not
> limited to -- LGPL
> code) and they are quite happy with it.

I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are larg= e numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code.
One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license.=C2=A0 Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 lice= nse are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single= product.=C2=A0 Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, th= is means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch.

It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, an= d the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for tha= t.

David

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--00000000000050d9ac0598c89bd6-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 00:53:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17121201DC for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f2EQKR9LM2SP for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E90E120131 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 00:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id e10so2826448ljj.6 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 00:53:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5MYRoFfHc3UQamTVJ6ngpOM1J7S1Fz0tJ0C3l7e0H9k=; b=I/UTMqpUdAWU1wm/6GOC8bqoz1B1kTBwkuw/LmMvzwo3cYYg5xaxfhSt5R6ldiKRFD Ip4Hhu7E4JSVs4cSZtXRj7tVL/TCgSGChRDOxc9Km4jt4nFTswm70ebKMZT1lf9RX3uF DS13vj9S8QAy06Yeebbkx3dDegGmslZDrpEMGy5fpJFnxjl9MT40HiLf3so6v9wi1fyV 7EfmuvTZHeyRO4hVMoGQlIjsm9796Z4ZajjixZTjti1Fd1i7Ky60OLjnHV98PpNorchg UwKcyJUHaG/39+Hq4tcxMKFNsIS0Z4hrPXbyuqGJWzMR117j+j4GSFpdsDbQUYcpZuzh 64wQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5MYRoFfHc3UQamTVJ6ngpOM1J7S1Fz0tJ0C3l7e0H9k=; b=W4h2ItUw9Y7yZwrkD3lngYCx2UKCw6u2zUEve9HB+Ra/wYjQ/WgJfId/TVxrJaF2Yz iRXAQD6A0y5+ayURw/SsZolSaMFVIlK0QrcgrYGgdc1X5/n9wim4r1S35YPy1CkTa4Un QHGcH5lVxdPH1bD9qXEWop1G7M9BwQn2PVTLSnWg+nY+FzFup++PmwUh3olNQRsO1cxv 1QPZ6UocqDBr0ttm2PTN/19osWYfECZAkjBzbaaBWx/d172ziLySxwVR7vYaIFMKxQuU Ex9EgN0kLEFJY7s7Leg2yXgKj15yfrdarGIq+t4iofxNJnfnazvbhqz90YMQZj15NmtM LmfA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXeTtzDQ66HnqIipVbk00YHs/NEmcXU1j3q7W9v9rl6raOCrJai iLprG1NUzuvI5E7dsUy7K/GGGBinW5bWWsYCDaA10Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw5DoCAhJaAasptsiNtWFV7Tnp/gIxGUKVb/FfJo/l5P/G057Z8ghyu/iBtpPDwn0WVg7cjV52FKq+bf5wOg3A= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9694:: with SMTP id q20mr613850lji.248.1575363217204; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 00:53:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 17:53:00 +0900 Message-ID: To: Emmanuel Baccelli Cc: Brendan Moran , David Brown , "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f43dfd0598c8d453" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:53:43 -0000 --000000000000f43dfd0598c8d453 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Emmanuel, So the PHY data rate was 250kb/s, right? WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) 38% is signature verification and 60% is transfer. That seems like signature verification is taking a huge amount of time... or was it a different data rate? Best Simon On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > Hi Szymon > > in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP= , > 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. > > However the open source RIOT implementation which stemmed out also works > out-of-the-box on other link layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] > ...). > > Cheers, > > Emmanuel > > [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 > [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/tree/master/examples/suit_update > [3] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/pull/12391 > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik wr= ote: > >> Hi Hannes, >> >> What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicitly >> stated in the paper... >> >> Thanks! >> >> Simon >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran >> wrote: >> >>> Hi David, >>> >>> The manifest generator that I released previously was apache >>> 2.0-licensed. I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm als= o >>> developing a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under th= e >>> same license. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Brendan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown >>> Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 >>> To: Emmanuel Baccelli >>> Cc: suit@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: >>> >>> > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedde= d >>> > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. >>> > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and >>> > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. >>> > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! >>> > >>> > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code >>> co-authors: >>> > please correct me if I'm wrong). >>> >>> This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code >>> however they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this code= is >>> not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referen= ce >>> code, it will need to be licensed differently. >>> >>> > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT >>> > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not >>> > limited to -- LGPL >>> > code) and they are quite happy with it. >>> >>> I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d >>> embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are large >>> numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code. >>> >>> One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the >>> Apache 2.0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL= 2 >>> license are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into = a >>> single product. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, t= his >>> means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch. >>> >>> It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e >>> to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, = and >>> the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for t= hat. >>> >>> David >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Suit mailing list >>> Suit@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the >>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Suit mailing list >>> Suit@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>> >> --000000000000f43dfd0598c8d453 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Emmanuel,

So the PHY data rate w= as 250kb/s, right?

WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) 38% i= s signature=C2=A0verification and 60% is transfer. That seems like signatur= e verification is taking a huge amount of=C2=A0time... or was it a differen= t data rate?

Best

Simon


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr&g= t; wrote:
Hi Szymon

in the paper [1] for our= experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.= 4 low power radio.

However the open source RIOT im= plementation which stemmed out also works out-of-the-box on other link laye= rs too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] ...).

= Cheers,

Emmanuel


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 = at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvair.com> wrote:
Hi Hannes,

=
What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicit= ly stated in the paper...

Thanks!

Simon

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com= > wrote:
= Hi David,

The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developi= ng a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same licen= se.

Best Regards,
Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit <s= uit-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36
To: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded=
> into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2].
> Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome!
>
> Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-autho= rs:
> please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is fine.=C2=A0 The authors of the code are free to license the code ho= wever they wish.=C2=A0 I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e code, it will need to be licensed differently.

> Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not
> limited to -- LGPL
> code) and they are quite happy with it.

I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are larg= e numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code.
One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license.=C2=A0 Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 lice= nse are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single= product.=C2=A0 Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, th= is means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch.

It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, an= d the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for tha= t.

David

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--000000000000f43dfd0598c8d453-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 05:04:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD7812002E; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lrYdvaewDSsV; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCB8120019; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6476E3818F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37484AD; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:04:30 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" , "suit\@ietf.org" , sacm In-Reply-To: References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 13:04:38 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Smith, Ned wrote: > The architecture slides presented at Singapore showed Attester-Verifi= er > interactions supporting multiple signed formats. Therefore, it could = be > reasonable to consider [Co]SWID as yet another payload format the Ver= ifier > needs to handle. That's an interesting take on things. My reading of CoSWID is that COSE signatures are almost an afterthought (appendix A), and in any case, would be produced by manufacturers rather th= an as evidence. It seems that inclusion of an unsigned CoSWID into a SUIT Manifest is appropriate as the manufacturer is authoritative for both. > Another consideration might question whether it makes sense for [Co]S= WID to > be regarded as Evidence. Maybe it should be restricted to Endorsement= s? I think that it makes more sense as Endorsement only, as such it falls outside of the normative part of the RATS architecture. > The important distinction from the perspective of the RATS architectu= re is > that Endorsements (signed by a mfg =E2=80=93 aka =E2=80=9CEndorser=E2= =80=9D) are still Endorsements > even if they are stored on the Attester and conveyed to a Verifier ov= er a > conveyance protocol that supports conveyance of Evidence. Evidence and > Endorsements are signed by different keys. How they are conveyed isn= =E2=80=99t > interesting to the Verifier per se. except where freshness is a > consideration. If the manufacturer-signed Endorsement is communicated within EAT, then it's not a seperate token format. It's just payload for a Evidence carrying EAT. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3mXV4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVG2ggAqp+xKQJpC0U065oNdgd4eJdVQTu0+otSlqBFsr8MNsxeCETO48KyRb0D 2qCDKewn7bZ9fufneADCx/nqkSj39HfjsdK0dObXopXXVDTbgh2W8pyOnKuD/X0c Vdc6xnleQFZaHJPy7tg+qvbMYiCIX6mdWYMVYjAcwSPLtK7QUB5ZNUUueOWUmcMw nCbNKYSeSOhbdYkjJ6Ku/UWtYyzZtN13YVAS1mWrby40DdR6bhT0NYIPWOcBhNUt ANtIf473R9HwBilmqWgDPM5F7YBhUnU3MNGaAoAN/ad/fSC8X0kXnKFz6Bh1Y8op 1sL3RIGZJYyqqveeERp5jrzwnKxBCA== =3yaC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 05:05:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F172B12002E for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6xcC_wq_X6h8 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f41.google.com (mail-ot1-f41.google.com [209.85.210.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 054081200F7 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f41.google.com with SMTP id k14so2817355otn.4 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 05:04:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=uKU2rlXqxW+MydCMxlnLO1g1zMqnlvv9bfu6d6oFNBQ=; b=ZVvqE1T7wvPrWj+csDWS5Pm2gUDcdXGwORRHupdyBskINb/dzuSZLZcOWZmxgddlYW +jtnm8A8YnFDl846wf7FPKSByB+C0JcZyFu9Wt5AB749fGs51ScuaxOaeWYzb8Z6HSRa v5qhRZOP4efVQtDHW/c8xN5fkcBUYUDSs5iSho2OhXIqZLT5f3qyc/boGFB9+M1fnb8S zV2o3PKfghihkxhYvqgvHAcdk7P9UFAyVLEey0W1fhIXq0U3Im873DdE1k0gpEX/NWgM F3QQp/41aCM+mzep9/hks0xEEoJ6K77IzOltrcAYPJJYcPvSufYIqfoZ/RcWXKBxcc+A LnBw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWt9lxsNKmUZB7L3rGWeq3QVDEpRak5nRZECL0/1s4s4J0BmXoq T8kSXeZARG9y/fzbrUx0ohKQkHdRO9y5TAjGUB+2ka/j X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzOT7zWXrqi3/JAHb5po81IJ5l+7z0c/ZKQm0xfH0U/IDV9OgtVBeR/EYy9at5kUO1UfKM2Ws2CMA1fwLQKmxQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6b06:: with SMTP id g6mr3021505otp.93.1575378293391; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 05:04:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:04:41 +0100 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009085470598cc577b" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 13:04:59 -0000 --0000000000009085470598cc577b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Szymon below some more information, since you ask ;) In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took about 11 seconds. The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment). The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, in this case. For other microcontrollers and/or with other signature schemes or alternative implementations/libraries, the speed & memory footprint we measured are compared in Tables 8, 7 and 6 (see [1]). As observed in the paper: - the time spent on signature verification heavily depends on the type of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, and on the specific implementation; - crypto's footprint in Flash memory can significantly impact the size of update binaries which need to be transferred over the network. Cheers, Emmanuel [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/wiki/Board:-Samr21-xpro On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:53 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik wrote= : > Thanks Emmanuel, > > So the PHY data rate was 250kb/s, right? > > WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) 38% is signature verification and 60% is > transfer. That seems like signature verification is taking a huge amount > of time... or was it a different data rate? > > Best > > Simon > > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli < > Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote: > >> Hi Szymon >> >> in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over >> UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. >> >> However the open source RIOT implementation which stemmed out also works >> out-of-the-box on other link layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] >> ...). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Emmanuel >> >> [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 >> [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/tree/master/examples/suit_update >> [3] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/pull/12391 >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik w= rote: >> >>> Hi Hannes, >>> >>> What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicitl= y >>> stated in the paper... >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> The manifest generator that I released previously was apache >>>> 2.0-licensed. I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm al= so >>>> developing a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under t= he >>>> same license. >>>> >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Brendan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown >>>> Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 >>>> To: Emmanuel Baccelli >>>> Cc: suit@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: >>>> >>>> > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedd= ed >>>> > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. >>>> > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and >>>> > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. >>>> > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! >>>> > >>>> > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code >>>> co-authors: >>>> > please correct me if I'm wrong). >>>> >>>> This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code >>>> however they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this cod= e is >>>> not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have refere= nce >>>> code, it will need to be licensed differently. >>>> >>>> > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT >>>> > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not >>>> > limited to -- LGPL >>>> > code) and they are quite happy with it. >>>> >>>> I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL >>>> licensed embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there = are >>>> large numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) thi= s >>>> code. >>>> >>>> One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the >>>> Apache 2.0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGP= L 2 >>>> license are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into= a >>>> single product. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, = this >>>> means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch. >>>> >>>> It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would >>>> like to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as poss= ible, >>>> and the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used = for >>>> that. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Suit mailing list >>>> Suit@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose th= e >>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy= the >>>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Suit mailing list >>>> Suit@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>>> >>> --0000000000009085470598cc577b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Szymon

below s= ome more information, since you ask ;)

In the expe= riment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the transfer of the= firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took about 11 seconds.
The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used = an off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment).
The signa= ture verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on an ARM C= ortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, in this= case.

For other microcontrollers and/or with othe= r signature schemes or alternative implementations/libraries, the speed &am= p; memory footprint we measured are compared in Tables 8, 7 and 6 (see [1])= .

As observed in the paper:
=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 - the time spent on signature verification heavily depends on the ty= pe of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, and on the specific impleme= ntation;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - crypto's footprint in Flash= memory can significantly impact the size of update binaries which need to = be transferred over the network.

Cheers,

Emmanuel


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:53 = AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvai= r.com> wrote:
Thanks Emmanuel,

So the PHY data r= ate was 250kb/s, right?

WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) = 38% is signature=C2=A0verification and 60% is transfer. That seems like sig= nature verification is taking a huge amount of=C2=A0time... or was it a dif= ferent data rate?

Best

Si= mon


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli &l= t;Emmanuel.= Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi Szymon

i= n the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, 6= LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio.

However = the open source RIOT implementation which stemmed out also works out-of-the= -box on other link layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] ...).

Cheers,

Emmanuel
=

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvair.com> wrote:
Hi H= annes,

What transport did you use? I could not find that= information explicitly stated in the paper...

Tha= nks!

Simon

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Br= endan Moran <= Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
Hi David,

The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developi= ng a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same licen= se.

Best Regards,
Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit <s= uit-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36
To: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded=
> into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2].
> Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome!
>
> Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-autho= rs:
> please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is fine.=C2=A0 The authors of the code are free to license the code ho= wever they wish.=C2=A0 I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e code, it will need to be licensed differently.

> Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not
> limited to -- LGPL
> code) and they are quite happy with it.

I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are larg= e numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code.
One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= .0 license.=C2=A0 Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 lice= nse are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a single= product.=C2=A0 Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, th= is means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch.

It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, an= d the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for tha= t.

David

_______________________________________________
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.

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--0000000000009085470598cc577b-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 05:09:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6419312002E; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:09:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I9fd15391iSA; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C51F120043; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id xB3D95fR032340 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:09:06 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.126.215) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:09:00 +0100 To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , sacm References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> <19794.1575378270@localhost> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <6a18b426-b11f-82e5-8758-93f79360b2a4@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 14:09:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19794.1575378270@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.126.215] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 13:09:11 -0000 As the I-D is trying to stay close to the ISO/IEC spec & as COSE is an "envelope" encapsulating a CoSWID tag, the guidance on signing is actually a bit detached to the structure of a CoSWID. Having said that. CoSWID can be measurements of installed SW components on an Attester and be part of Attestation Evidence. For this, they do not have to be signed - this depends on the level of assurance the Attest-ING Environment of the Attester can provide (e.g. via Endorsements from Endorsers, formerly known as Asserters). On 03.12.19 14:04, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Smith, Ned wrote: > > The architecture slides presented at Singapore showed Attester-Verifier > > interactions supporting multiple signed formats. Therefore, it could be > > reasonable to consider [Co]SWID as yet another payload format the Verifier > > needs to handle. > > That's an interesting take on things. > My reading of CoSWID is that COSE signatures are almost an afterthought > (appendix A), and in any case, would be produced by manufacturers rather than > as evidence. > > It seems that inclusion of an unsigned CoSWID into a SUIT Manifest is > appropriate as the manufacturer is authoritative for both. > > > Another consideration might question whether it makes sense for [Co]SWID to > > be regarded as Evidence. Maybe it should be restricted to Endorsements? > > I think that it makes more sense as Endorsement only, as such it falls > outside of the normative part of the RATS architecture. > > > The important distinction from the perspective of the RATS architecture is > > that Endorsements (signed by a mfg – aka “Endorser”) are still Endorsements > > even if they are stored on the Attester and conveyed to a Verifier over a > > conveyance protocol that supports conveyance of Evidence. Evidence and > > Endorsements are signed by different keys. How they are conveyed isn’t > > interesting to the Verifier per se. except where freshness is a > > consideration. > > If the manufacturer-signed Endorsement is communicated within EAT, then it's > not a seperate token format. It's just payload for a Evidence carrying EAT. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > _______________________________________________ > sacm mailing list > sacm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm > From nobody Tue Dec 3 05:23:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E09C120043 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ey7MLLtzIYGN for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:23:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E159C120019 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 05:23:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F803818F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62A04AD; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Emmanuel Baccelli cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= , David Brown , "suit@ietf.org" , Brendan Moran In-Reply-To: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 08:23:20 -0500 Message-ID: <23912.1575379400@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 13:23:23 -0000 Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, ove= r UDP, > 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. CoAP Block Mode? From nobody Tue Dec 3 06:03:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C1E12006B for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:03:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.471 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.471 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.073, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u0FpL7k9Eu93 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com [209.85.167.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6469C120043 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id l136so3382048oig.1 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:03:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EAHkR+21+q6cY/nmMBwLUD99dFxHRwaiuy186dYY2xo=; b=hGti/FfpZI/hVbzWD8lhEaF6cl5rz3vrnvdbQdQG4ejZSH0RLRdoG718tcxIDVEdRN R9CfoAUWJCjexu4Dq38sXieEkCh30aubtyJ4+CLQsoiNkV8GXjna04MFdHHkaZwj0uFO RaExQHYQRIpQfE+xYVwaSVi3xdgXeW8lXMdO2TMeIENpqV7ETuj1A/Aw9rp8ERD7Ual/ JYNfLJg/w3JUI1K6vavVOOrqtFLeYaq22xKWCoQo/hQgRdxQ6alXetlAPqIOppFnWtuP QBgIbzaT6i/RecTsIZPybDgt+yB3ex7+PKq0UXPnL+0dTEWie4EO2ndLiGSFszkOnfOB gEjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5QVUCh3XaeWaD5tpwQMinLR8Ev9qmgJYHcA1JHygnpKl0Evyj tk49kTUuncMsrbGafm+buFYju772jsX3p4cXcDgxjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzcmPnLZrQvsj0AquBSWl9wyt6FYkFJ+mn49EraizUn9LTOq9H5S5wPaE/AQ0diU3SJyb0BeLE4DxE4doBLar8= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b38b:: with SMTP id c133mr3476370oif.2.1575381780244; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:03:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <23912.1575379400@localhost> In-Reply-To: <23912.1575379400@localhost> From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:02:48 +0100 Message-ID: To: "suit@ietf.org" Cc: Koen Zandberg , Kaspar Schleiser Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000065b1ec0598cd27b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 14:03:06 -0000 --00000000000065b1ec0598cd27b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Michael, in the paper, we implemented and comparatively evaluated various configurations. Some configurations use CoAP Block1, others use Block2 (see section IV.C. in [1]). For Table 3, CoAP Block1 is used, IIRC. (Ccing Koen and Kaspar in case they know better). cheers, Emmanuel [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=8725488 On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 2:23 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > > in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, > over UDP, > > 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. > > CoAP Block Mode? > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --00000000000065b1ec0598cd27b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Michael,

in the paper, we implemented and comparatively evaluated various configura= tions.
Some configurations use CoAP Block1, others use Block2 (se= e section IV.C. in [1]).
For Table 3, CoAP Block1 is used, II= RC.
(Ccing Koen and Kaspar in case they know better).

cheers,



On = Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 2:23 PM Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:
Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@= inria.fr> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as tr= ansport, over UDP,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio.

CoAP Block Mode?

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X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga008.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.58]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Dec 2019 08:12:20 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,273,1571727600"; d="scan'208";a="208495110" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by fmsmga008.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 03 Dec 2019 08:12:20 -0800 Received: from orsmsx115.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.11) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:12:20 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.161]) by ORSMSX115.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.4.121]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:12:19 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Henk Birkholz , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , sacm Thread-Topic: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT Thread-Index: AQHVqdrh3qFLtHXJaU+liEJBo3ckJ6eolSgA Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <40A05013-D12A-4D16-9FE9-2E97D5D8EF90@intel.com> References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> <19794.1575378270@localhost> <6a18b426-b11f-82e5-8758-93f79360b2a4@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <6a18b426-b11f-82e5-8758-93f79360b2a4@sit.fraunhofer.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 x-originating-ip: [10.254.183.12] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:12:23 -0000 SGVuaywNCkknbSBub3QgY2xlYXIgaWYgeW91IGFyZSBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCBhbiB1bnNpZ25lZCBD 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CiAgICBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAg IFN1aXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgU3VpdEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc3VpdA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Dec 3 13:08:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67C512003E; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:08:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AwqNB-NoQD7X; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28BBB12002F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37783818F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32E6784; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:07:55 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Smith\, Ned" cc: Henk Birkholz , "rats\@ietf.org" , "suit\@ietf.org" , sacm In-Reply-To: <40A05013-D12A-4D16-9FE9-2E97D5D8EF90@intel.com> References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> <19794.1575378270@localhost> <6a18b426-b11f-82e5-8758-93f79360b2a4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <40A05013-D12A-4D16-9FE9-2E97D5D8EF90@intel.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 21:08:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: > I'm not clear if you are saying that an unsigned CoSWID is assumed to > be a statement from an Attest-ING environment or something > else. Normally, I regard unsigned assertions as invalid (verifiers > should not make assumptions). I believe that unsigned CoSWID structures will be inside another signed structure (such as a SUIT manifest), will be conveyed by secure transport (i.e. HTTPS or CoAPS transport of a RESTCONF mechanism that retrieves it), or will be stored in a trusted database. So, I agree with you that unsigned CoSWID objects in the wild would be invalid and unusual. > CoSWID structures can be signed by either Attesters (Attesting env) or > Endorsers. The CoSWID formatting is the same but the signers are > different and a Verifier might treat the CoSWID content differently > based on who signed it. For example, if an Attester signed it then a > Verifier would expect to find an Endorser signed CoSWID with which to > compare to Evidence. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that a CoSWID signed by an Attester is the way that an Attester indicates what software release it is running. I would prefer that the structure was instead: EAT{protected_map{measurement-of-running-firmware=XX} S_endorser{firmware_version=YY,measurement=XX}} That is, the CoSWID provided by as part of the Evidence would echo the Endorsement. Of course, the Verifier would still have to be able to verify the endorser's key, but having done so, it now can consider the policy question: "is firmware_version YY new enough?" > Enveloping formats (e.g. EAT[CoSWID] ) doesn't disambiguate who signed > what. Both the EAT thing and the CoSWID thing could be signed and by > different signers. Alternatively, neither of them could be signed. If > the latter, then both the EAT and CoSWID things are invalid. I think that we are in violent agreement here. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3mzqsACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVa4Af+MjDNwnoRW7R3jBJvX/syljm+nqqu66ihAhG+9PrCnDRNzyO0lghUfLpd QuNP/3X5TFwgrbw1vezT5wffjlxSmUz3cmb/Ju23vXjBeM7wDoLbvgwxvqsO3By+ gWOWm8hNpd+EtbIM3+PCiTsT09fQyGlD34r2QJ1XJSEXGmwUgxpYQ+AcB75MYZ09 hrJLnDWWNWKTmg5j6QV9hTpQjTamABle+PfE+65iGr79Rt3hz2SpoxMurmDpu1WS mkQdHOrjphqMas5/7MVIlSbNH5fWQ0W1/lTN2wFDF59Yh2LO/y8N17GidFzhsc6O 5UUsAQHw/4F2JgrvNz5rl3E851+bsg== =+jwq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 13:32:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCA2120044; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:32:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtZWAzkejZV1; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga18.intel.com (mga18.intel.com [134.134.136.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2791312003E; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:32:05 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga002.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.21]) by orsmga106.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 03 Dec 2019 13:32:04 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,275,1571727600"; d="scan'208";a="222973637" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by orsmga002.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 03 Dec 2019 13:32:04 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.161]) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.224]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:32:04 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , "Henk Birkholz" , sacm Thread-Topic: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT Thread-Index: AQHVqh3FKY8nS4BEAEucOvvSkwG9zqeo7fmA Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 21:32:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27435.1575305487@localhost> <19794.1575378270@localhost> <6a18b426-b11f-82e5-8758-93f79360b2a4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <40A05013-D12A-4D16-9FE9-2E97D5D8EF90@intel.com> <27974.1575407275@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27974.1575407275@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1f.0.191110 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.102] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6A9A528D190A98448C8A2F6F624C09BA@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 21:32:07 -0000 DQoNCu+7v09uIDEyLzMvMTksIDE6MDggUE0sICJTdWl0IG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBNaWNoYWVsIFJp Y2hhcmRzb24iIDxzdWl0LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIG1jcitpZXRmQHNh bmRlbG1hbi5jYT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICBTbWl0aCwgTmVkIDxuZWQuc21p dGhAaW50ZWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCiAgICAgICAgPiBJJ20gbm90IGNsZWFyIGlmIHlvdSBhcmUg c2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgYW4gdW5zaWduZWQgQ29TV0lEIGlzIGFzc3VtZWQgdG8NCiAgICAgICAgPiBi 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IC0tDQogICAgXSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIE5ldmVyIHRlbGwgbWUgdGhlIG9kZHMhICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICB8IGlwdjYgbWVzaCBuZXR3b3JrcyBbDQogICAgXSAgIE1pY2hhZWwgUmljaGFyZHNv biwgU2FuZGVsbWFuIFNvZnR3YXJlIFdvcmtzICAgICAgICB8ICAgIElvVCBhcmNoaXRlY3QgICBb DQogICAgXSAgICAgbWNyQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYSAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zYW5kZWxtYW4uY2EvICAg ICAgICB8ICAgcnVieSBvbiByYWlscyAgICBbDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAgLS0NCiAgICBNaWNo YWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24gPG1jcitJRVRGQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYT4sIFNhbmRlbG1hbiBTb2Z0d2Fy ZSBXb3Jrcw0KICAgICAtPSBJUHY2IElvVCBjb25zdWx0aW5nID0tDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAg DQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Dec 3 13:57:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42465120044 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SphHSvGaHaHU for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BC7512003E for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 13:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7DF3818F; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F71784; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:57:06 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson to: Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit\@ietf.org" , Brendan Moran In-Reply-To: <23912.1575379400@localhost> References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <23912.1575379400@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 21:57:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Michael Richardson wrote: > Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: >> in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, >> 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. > CoAP Block Mode? Hi, I know that you answered, and I actually posted my question before I had finished all of the paper :-) (That's a new kind of pie chart you've used...) As I understand it, in the pure-CoAP scenario you provided an endpoint to which the SUIT manifest was pushed (using Block1). The target device then evaluated the manifest, and if it validated and was new, then it downloaded the new firmware. Similarly, the same thing was done with a LwM2M-OTA situation. Neither situation had any transport security (DTLS), and relied upon the verification of the manifest. So we had end-to-end integrity, but no privacy. Of course, the 802.15.4 network could have L2 security... did you have that? I'm asking because it's an additional crypto load. At this point quite a number of people would like to standardized some transport for SUIT manifests for use in some situations like you have described. That was deemed outside the scope for the current SUIT effort (and I agreed with the reasons at the time), and I wouldn't expect everyone to agree to use it. Some have expected OCF or another to do something here. I wonder if there is interest in doing things at the IETF? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3m2jIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWKQwf/XSLj1ZvnrTmsXp9S+iYMTfq37pDOY8kfZQMlLoJkWHuo7TqPACjQw00V A0Ax/m3FbM2JGyggCiaBqHLsDJMps2XQ8qDrWMYB+lJsl/Sc/N8ntjImSpagZLxw sF78rSR9k7KUAOrbFPo5BNyBCFsT3pDB8it89Mf9xwOyQx4IbY/Qt71smtc2Z3C4 ScjyNY9+HkeP8OgQiRWqwpyHNkqYt555CQHKE1O6J4viNrpvM9d318I5jyrq7XXp udTvEL+0cXMzU2VAnfnDkh3tiGQB2fNLeoIXiuGQb7AQtspW/Cpm3weIrt6XRBDF TuT5Enjva56CGS6iO5ikqOIHPz20bg== =GdOr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 16:56:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E073B120096 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZutFrwsKPkE for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F8BA12000F for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 16:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id y19so4619788lfl.9 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:56:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dVOt6TSzhQJ63rFuPEgciPC1iRYcNrVZAMhZaQpW2es=; b=xacR9hlltCTkE8eNsRsRhhUrv8tiQ0txApADOYYMJ/KKwVYEynp1ApN5TEZa3RTsEk Ciju9kb3TPrJEUw8l/5a1RAE9r4LQRXK2j+NMwslz7OGVO3sEy4D9N+1w6x5BoSQRdLb f7aQkIEqXE/mHObTfRRms7Fl9zGunRRA8mtwv26mNTMFEoLYnk4mtZ4MVNKVan618FPy QMutd5HRNKsvdTH5/aKM2XqPTaLQhevUY5dq0IuBVos5Oaxr/ZeBNDvQ4cKpVKzfQejk aOVG1grn7tUEtIOYwi+YCCf20umvLXg3zsbyT4lweQww9dB/8wf2eVk35qSY8Lz03b86 LO9A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dVOt6TSzhQJ63rFuPEgciPC1iRYcNrVZAMhZaQpW2es=; b=IRxK1xSBA73BCU9GwmwEHqdydwLz0OCM6RjTR2Cm6CmPu5/k06NrR24HNLbSnUc0Id LAG9iYqKbfJMHwbqU7ycdj2SwLJceHnRMiE7uVWuAdHXgF+up15Af1hvYrdRtSJ9eXAg oh1oYOsuL2qPL9hEIjlK0VGmTDVCTRjSv6DBrfUISj6DDLCz/4b9vgbHcIZruLY/c5xI 3Bz7PU0emvibV93w+JCar8kuXcx3Y6w7bZ+oPdcWqH6qYMRWTkRLhHchyMJaPAO1wDs0 eJnyIRa4kp/iTXQPWMKsXbS+YN/xfZmKpjSSHKPA6ZKCdBs/SlDWyNx2LmjupUbwK63m Vpxw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUXPSAy5PkKKpfFHTj2gxPFD2KHDKHYeXlA+oCNyagUrcEKIOMQ JS82R2JAHZBS6+zXH7l3GlHHPH86ul6x/R9L47wsEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxEkQ2UfGUIJnQencG8s+u26UmShxUtTQ4s54YFvwnt+GmQtq88qDyWULwSCHiaR0EfHEZBSMRd0aP5Gjo7Bb0= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:48bc:: with SMTP id u28mr398984lfg.161.1575420981144; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 16:56:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 09:55:44 +0900 Message-ID: To: Emmanuel Baccelli Cc: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f3ffc20598d64786" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 00:56:27 -0000 --000000000000f3ffc20598d64786 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Emmanuel, Thanks fo the detailed info. Some comments of mine in line below In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the > transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took abou= t > 11 seconds. > [SS] yeah... that 35kB is a bit unrealistic... for production stacks (including application functionality) we see the FW sizes (uncompressed) to be in 200kB range. But I take it the times scale linearly, so for 200kB the transfer time would be about 1 minute. Have you considered the link saturation during the transfer? In many cases you do not want the transfer to [significantly] affect the operation of the network, so a strategy to reduce the transfer duty cycle may be prudent. > The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an > off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment). > [SS] And that was a single-hop, right? Have you considered multi-hop transfers over a mesh network? > The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) > on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long > indeed, in this case. [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirements (RAM usage) increase with the image size? Best Simon On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Emmanuel Baccelli < Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Szymon > > below some more information, since you ask ;) > > In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the > transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took abou= t > 11 seconds. > The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an > off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment). > The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) > on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long > indeed, in this case. > > For other microcontrollers and/or with other signature schemes or > alternative implementations/libraries, the speed & memory footprint we > measured are compared in Tables 8, 7 and 6 (see [1]).. > > As observed in the paper: > - the time spent on signature verification heavily depends on the typ= e > of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, and on the specific > implementation; > - crypto's footprint in Flash memory can significantly impact the siz= e > of update binaries which need to be transferred over the network. > > Cheers, > > Emmanuel > > [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 > [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/wiki/Board:-Samr21-xpro > > On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:53 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik wro= te: > >> Thanks Emmanuel, >> >> So the PHY data rate was 250kb/s, right? >> >> WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) 38% is signature verification and 60% is >> transfer. That seems like signature verification is taking a huge amount >> of time... or was it a different data rate? >> >> Best >> >> Simon >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli < >> Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> Hi Szymon >>> >>> in the paper [1] for our experiements we used CoAP as transport, over >>> UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4 low power radio. >>> >>> However the open source RIOT implementation which stemmed out also work= s >>> out-of-the-box on other link layers too (among others BLE [3], wired [1= ] >>> ...). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Emmanuel >>> >>> [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 >>> [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/tree/master/examples/suit_update >>> [3] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/pull/12391 >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik = wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Hannes, >>>> >>>> What transport did you use? I could not find that information >>>> explicitly stated in the paper... >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> Simon >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi David, >>>>> >>>>> The manifest generator that I released previously was apache >>>>> 2.0-licensed. I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm a= lso >>>>> developing a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under = the >>>>> same license. >>>>> >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Brendan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Suit On Behalf Of David Brown >>>>> Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36 >>>>> To: Emmanuel Baccelli >>>>> Cc: suit@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is >>>>> embedded >>>>> > into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. >>>>> > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 an= d >>>>> > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2]. >>>>> > Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome! >>>>> > >>>>> > Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code >>>>> co-authors: >>>>> > please correct me if I'm wrong). >>>>> >>>>> This is fine. The authors of the code are free to license the code >>>>> however they wish. I just want to make sure it is clear that this co= de is >>>>> not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have refer= ence >>>>> code, it will need to be licensed differently. >>>>> >>>>> > Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIO= T >>>>> > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not >>>>> > limited to -- LGPL >>>>> > code) and they are quite happy with it. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL >>>>> licensed embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there= are >>>>> large numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) th= is >>>>> code. >>>>> >>>>> One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the >>>>> Apache 2..0 license. Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the L= GPL 2 >>>>> license are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together int= o a >>>>> single product. Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot,= this >>>>> means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch. >>>>> >>>>> It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would >>>>> like to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as pos= sible, >>>>> and the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used= for >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Suit mailing list >>>>> Suit@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose t= he >>>>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or cop= y the >>>>> information in any medium. Thank you. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Suit mailing list >>>>> Suit@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --000000000000f3ffc20598d64786 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Emmanuel,

Thanks fo the=C2=A0detaile= d=C2=A0info.

Some comments of mine in line below

In the= experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the transfer o= f the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took about 11 seconds= .
=C2=A0
[SS] yeah... that 35kB is a bit unr= ealistic... for production stacks (including application functionality) we = see the FW sizes (uncompressed) to be in 200kB range. But I take it the tim= es scale linearly, so for 200kB the transfer time would be about 1 minute. = Have you considered the link saturation during the transfer? In many cases = you do not want the transfer to [significantly] affect the operation of the= network, so a strategy to reduce the transfer duty cycle may be prudent.
=C2=A0
The = 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an off-the-= shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment).

[SS] And that was a single-hop, right? Have you considered multi-hop = transfers over a mesh network?
=C2=A0
The signature verification was performed with t= he HACL library (ed25519) on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -= - so yes, pretty long indeed, in this case.

[SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirements (RAM= usage) increase with the image size?=C2=A0

Best
Simon

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Emmanuel Baccelli <<= a href=3D"mailto:Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr">Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr= > wrote:
Hi Szymon

below some = more information, since you ask ;)

In the experime= nt you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the transfer of the fir= mware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took about 11 seconds.
The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an o= ff-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment).
The signature= verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on an ARM Corte= x-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, in this cas= e.

For other microcontrollers and/or with other si= gnature schemes or alternative implementations/libraries, the speed & m= emory footprint we measured are compared in Tables 8, 7 and 6 (see [1])..

As observed in the paper:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 - the time spent on signature verification heavily depends on the type = of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, and on the specific implementa= tion;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - crypto's footprint in Flash me= mory can significantly impact the size of update binaries which need to be = transferred over the network.

Cheers,
Emmanuel


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 9:53 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvair.com> wrote:
=
Th= anks Emmanuel,

So the PHY data rate was 250kb/s, right?<= /div>

WRT Figure 3 (tIme spent) 38% is signature=C2=A0ve= rification and 60% is transfer. That seems like signature verification is t= aking a huge amount of=C2=A0time... or was it a different data rate?
<= div>
Best

Simon

=

= On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 5:37 PM Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>= ; wrote:
Hi Szymon

in the paper [1] for our = experiements we used CoAP as transport, over UDP, 6LoWPAN and IEEE 802.15.4= low power radio.

However the open source RIOT imp= lementation which stemmed out also works out-of-the-box on other link layer= s too (among others BLE [3], wired [1] ...).

C= heers,

Emmanuel


On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at = 12:58 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik <simon@silvair.com> wrote:
Hi Hannes,

What transport did you use? I could not find that information explicitly s= tated in the paper...

Thanks!

=
Simon

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 12:20 AM Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
Hi= David,

The manifest generator that I released previously was apache 2.0-licensed. = I don't plan to change that for the next release. I'm also developi= ng a manifest parser which I anticipate being released under the same licen= se.

Best Regards,
Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit <s= uit-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Brown
Sent: 29 November 2019 18:36
To: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
Cc: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Firmware Update Paper

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 12:46:42PM +0100, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> The open source implementation stemming from our paper [1] is embedded=
> into the RIOT operating system, which is indeed licensed with LGPL. > The implementation is compliant with draft-ietf-suit-manifest-00 and > has recently been merged into the main branch of RIOT, see [2].
> Reuse and further contributions to this code base are welcome!
>
> Relicensing this code is not planned as far as I know (@ code co-autho= rs:
> please correct me if I'm wrong).

This is fine.=C2=A0 The authors of the code are free to license the code ho= wever they wish.=C2=A0 I just want to make sure it is clear that this code = is not useful as a general example, and if the SUIT wishes to have referenc= e code, it will need to be licensed differently.

> Related: we know of several companies, big and small, which use RIOT > in their IoT products (and thus use software including -- but not
> limited to -- LGPL
> code) and they are quite happy with it.

I'm sure there are a few companies that are willing to use LGPL license= d embedded code, but their existence doesn't negate that there are larg= e numbers of users who will be unable to use (or even look at) this code.
One example is that both Zephyr and MCUboot are licensed under the Apache 2= ..0 license.=C2=A0 Most parties feel that the Apache 2.0 and the LGPL 2 lic= ense are incompatible, and this code cannot be linked together into a singl= e product.=C2=A0 Since I'd like to include SUIT support into MCUboot, t= his means I'll have to be doing an implementation from scratch.

It's not my place to argue about the licensing of RIOT, but I would lik= e to see reference code for SUIT that can be used as widley as possible, an= d the licensing of this particular code prevents it from being used for tha= t.

David

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--000000000000f3ffc20598d64786-- From nobody Wed Dec 4 03:38:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3C1212080C for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 03:38:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c__KhyFFOgOT for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 03:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com [209.85.210.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B641120013 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 03:38:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 66so6000228otd.9 for ; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 03:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=z1F2SC/WVxqjf21Fv3kerDzxOAXolC3s7LAuOWo71WE=; b=Qjfyjlu9tDaEiE4wA6BbJRe9u1bEJyvpCMwxjyr6mVf3iNCBVqT/QHzfvo1yqtLZLf dz0bbmP44pdjQxB4Cf7ei1UkspuomatcDodKuxb4QDXVgxpANgqhxj/cA5fBjyMKudvy MvLE0PXHdBrI1b+nB3YgC1QkhUPknH3Rmut6xLv4U/HLsKlZT8HLTkwB4VK0qqiP3t3X erb9spd0XqHOz8Bp4+209VmEMfI/Hc6XUrfQRooWm78YzRnWUPiOZWdBRut+/4hh7Tmj q7gr0GjfPT6g+1s2hE27EI157M03HMlWu3nKntoEuCU7v0Yw6xRWXHHpKtZnUrMcBJxA 1WIg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWESy0fR6+1rT3uAS472s2Xl0xzdq+nn2JrqPSOKzNZoaD9csmx a+rpZjJEqALlO3C3IiWKrjaZ95Oy8vgIgQ4YLNk7QIxJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz5yRmRZi5pkuBsuUpKeskuq1bKYSAQ2+v5s1EC+gaUlzu5rtYzgYMlsamJ7nY7zwaAyOr/u9nPR2VJzAmQjPA= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7e99:: with SMTP id m25mr2012530otp.212.1575459513548; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 03:38:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> In-Reply-To: From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:38:22 +0100 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9c4a60598df40dd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 11:38:37 -0000 --000000000000a9c4a60598df40dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Simon, Some comments & answers inline. On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 1:56 AM Szymon S=C5=82upik wrote= : > Hi Emmanuel, > > [...] > > In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the >> transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took abo= ut >> 11 seconds. >> > > [SS] yeah... that 35kB is a bit unrealistic... for production stacks > (including application functionality) we see the FW sizes (uncompressed) = to > be in 200kB range. > [EB] Just to be clear: we did not make this number up. 35kB is the actual binary size for a (basic) RIOT configuration including standard CoAP and crypto functionalities, among others. That said, indeed, firmware size does depend on the OS, the libraries that are used, and on the required functionalities. [SS] Have you considered the link saturation during the transfer? In many > cases you do not want the transfer to [significantly] affect the operatio= n > of the network, so a strategy to reduce the transfer duty cycle may be > prudent. > > [..] And that was a single-hop, right? Have you considered multi-hop > transfers over a mesh network? > > [EB] The measurements we made for this paper were in the simplest scenario you can think of (single hop, and good network conditions). In other scenarios (multihop, side traffic etc.) results would be different, delaying network transfer completion time. Nevertheless I think this does not invalidate the observations made in the paper, i.e. that crypto makes up for a significant chunk of the memory and energy footprints. The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on >> an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long inde= ed, >> in this case. > > > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirements (RA= M > usage) increase with the image size? > > [EB] Not really: in the context of this paper, what is signed (and verified) is a hash of the image, not the image itself. Best regards, Emmanuel On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Emmanuel Baccelli < > Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote: > >> Hi Szymon >> >> below some more information, since you ask ;) >> >> In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the >> transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took abo= ut >> 11 seconds. >> The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band in default mode (we used an >> off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experiment). >> The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) >> on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long >> indeed, in this case. >> >> For other microcontrollers and/or with other signature schemes or >> alternative implementations/libraries, the speed & memory footprint we >> measured are compared in Tables 8, 7 and 6 (see [1]).. >> >> As observed in the paper: >> - the time spent on signature verification heavily depends on the >> type of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, and on the specific >> implementation; >> - crypto's footprint in Flash memory can significantly impact the >> size of update binaries which need to be transferred over the network. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Emmanuel >> >> [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=3D8725488 >> [2] https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/wiki/Board:-Samr21-xpro >> >> >> --000000000000a9c4a60598df40dd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Simon,

Some comments = & answers inline.

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 1:56 AM Szymon S=C5= =82upik <simon@si= lvair.com> wrote:
Hi Emmanuel,

[...]

=
In the experiment you poi= nt out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in [1]) the transfer of the firmware bina= ry + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) took about 11 seconds.
<= div>=C2=A0
[SS] yeah... that 35kB is a bit unrealistic... for pro= duction stacks (including application functionality) we see the FW sizes (u= ncompressed) to be in 200kB range.

=
[EB] Just to be clear: we did not make this number up. 35kB is the act= ual binary size for a (basic) RIOT configuration including standard CoAP an= d crypto functionalities, among others.
That said, indeed, f= irmware size does depend on the OS, the libraries that are used, and on the= required functionalities.


[SS] Have y= ou considered the link saturation during the transfer? In many cases you do= not want the transfer to [significantly] affect the operation of the netwo= rk, so a strategy to reduce the transfer duty cycle may be prudent.
=C2=A0
[..] And that was a single-hop, right? Have you considered m= ulti-hop transfers over a mesh network?
=C2=A0
=

[EB] The measurements we made for this paper were in th= e simplest scenario you can think of (single hop, and good network conditio= ns).
In other scenarios (multihop, side traffic etc.) results wou= ld be different, delaying network transfer completion time.
Never= theless I think this does not invalidate the observations made in the paper= ,
i.e. that crypto makes up for a significant chunk of the m= emory and energy footprints.
=C2=A0

The signature verification was perform= ed with the HACL library (ed25519) on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 = seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, in this case.

<= /div>
[SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirem= ents (RAM usage) increase with the image size?=C2=A0


[EB] Not really: in the context of thi= s paper, what is signed (and verified) is a hash of the image, not the imag= e itself.


Best regards,
<= br>
Emmanuel
=C2=A0

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:05 PM Emmanuel Bacc= elli <Em= manuel.Baccelli@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi Szymon

below some more information, since you ask ;)
In the experiment you point out (reported in Table 3 and 4 in = [1]) the transfer of the firmware binary + the manifest (totaling ~35kB) to= ok about 11 seconds.
The 802.15.4 radio was used in 2.4GHz band i= n default mode (we used an off-the-shelf SAMR21 board [2] for this experime= nt).
The signature verification was performed with the HACL libra= ry (ed25519) on an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pre= tty long indeed, in this case.

For other microcont= rollers and/or with other signature schemes or alternative implementations/= libraries, the speed & memory footprint we measured are compared in Tab= les 8, 7 and 6 (see [1])..

As observed in the pape= r:
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - the time spent on signature verification = heavily depends on the type of microcontroller, on the signature scheme, an= d on the specific implementation;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - crypto= 's footprint in Flash memory can significantly impact the size of updat= e binaries which need to be transferred over the network.


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--_000_VI1PR08MB5360CF7EFDF7C550D0D7E755FA5D0VI1PR08MB5360eurp_-- From nobody Wed Dec 4 11:01:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EB4120A1F; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:00:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4vgyANEGlBGY; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCABE1209EA; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E23E3818F; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF51DAAB; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 14:00:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3FUTF-8=3FQ=3FSzymon=5FS=3DC5=3D82upik=3F=3D?= , Emmanuel Baccelli , suit@ietf.org, 6tisch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 19:00:57 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Szymon S=C5=82upik wrote: > [SS] yeah... that 35kB is a bit unrealistic... for production stacks > (including application functionality) we see the FW sizes (uncompress= ed) to > be in 200kB range. But I take it the times scale linearly, so for 200= kB the > transfer time would be about 1 minute. Have you considered the link > saturation during the transfer? In many cases you do not want the tra= nsfer to > [significantly] affect the operation of the network, so a strategy to= reduce > the transfer duty cycle may be prudent. I also agree with your question, and with the need to do the updates at a lower priority. 6tisch has a whole bunch of mechanism here. It occurs to me now that the development of an update protocol over 802.15.4 (which I mentioned in another email in this thread) might be appropriately done in the 6tisch WG, since I actually think that the bandwidth and scheduling of the update is probably the critical part. SUIT has the security done... so we have the HOW. We just have the WHEN. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3oAmIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WURIwgAvHTiMS1jM2rWswGzNXE1jIhwUtv7GR0QIzckEArSw0R7ROKWUd8ycX5d hFtjDAe/895iRu3Gp8m6wyfIJ1sGWKsSlEStfczgIBQE+bAgLAE5d1w5822dv+TZ 4HpJerRk7d+wl446q05lwvTXK8X87AztsnPKKXcAEwEBZK1m7kdpZS7VakkQP8f+ rx9m60Kh/in+lEvrVuvnGJh6O3WBwDriU4EGcBTRvGSAEGxmqIvFSPF8AiOsh3iR DHQLoVWHj6vgkq19+9UAGJm6DVjPSh6SxlZIHajFPLvI/mzK5jFBnuUMj8hUNSkF mt4xSgxm4Nk2zAsgUQ2odhtWiYms9w== =V5Ik -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 4 11:02:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844F6120964 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:02:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KIUu8IkWTNlr for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:02:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 656C5120971 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:02:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326D43818F; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 13:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9575AAAB; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 14:02:29 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig cc: Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 19:02:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on > an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, > in this case. > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirements (RAM > usage) increase with the image size? I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED25519 operation, and how much time was the hash calculation. Only the hash calculation would scale with the image size. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3oAsUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUxwggAjF3jvrqcrPC/p0MQKzrpz2YoUPJRl5Q/IIkss+pUF32iyl+eOTLPM8Fo Xcd1WE12L+9kY6IKKfFNUIKE84+QOnqfeAG/oTL9uXzhMTJlZvrJUcVvdBZ+N8fd mOlL58GleF9v9O4quAkJWTn+Ue/j1BjH18BHpS1ZAE06pOC0GhFU3PhBQUqsshCo h2yHg38cURzMm1dmVU4rVD26uxK3CTS6Ewm/7D+gu5/R92oHOZnY5p5DmmYaTt+n cmHA1iWD320aQ0lurGh4Q2GEzIv47Fx728EbyKrosoV45mnhK6uJr2XwKLMSgFgJ 5Q8BpT28lMhyphFGmHAZgxi5hWmuJQ== =std/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 4 17:31:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC45120111 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:31:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VF0olOZiqSW for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C140B120058 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 17:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id d20so1503587ljc.12 for ; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 17:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WA5oefA5xy8dbkjZf/rHjLDRRJPeTBb7duejxevNB2U=; b=HI+ynHtvZ2uZhRHSD5KDxKiJY2uAaxJ2p3COdgCcL7yzBF4bafV/vmmwVrSRKF6DhO a+jBkaWyTqxga7S3yE6/vKBdPxmLYwu/i8RNfqUJjA75d5f1XUsO3wFX3dRMh85GQBn4 TvnoXE64rdDfCjdOjeNT5ywH2OkjdfgTr4fTeHsSSJ5RBrBAYG1QJy7AKeb7YJPJRltw vD0Bc8vsJbUg9KjBMs5pmIEd97hS25UIsW406TqXX0wWzfey3V0t0G3yrRVzHThyQg+h bTbyV2DNo5YfvHvCInu8Ms4ORXZRlWBw7fqptYVzd3m1T4F8t9O+/IRh6rYe6WlSBKVX LHIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WA5oefA5xy8dbkjZf/rHjLDRRJPeTBb7duejxevNB2U=; b=Fk16pMhEScX7Ewmwm7Ilcn9qO1TSlpkudnNrbCS0TI170LHVr7gPe7/95NylNOCWwU XzcOeWcJ4tawd//B9ln3IzUfbduHzw9fiFfM05VLEzMIY6XdfZhuHrwiX3OUwQaYlJfh 75WMWlx8ZwZhMSvlQFYhRGnkt9rPfUmuZiN9l+R9hLay2704E7RnwajGsC3zvZ6DQeNR th801hrvwonwAbjqkvxsPtAuzM9QXygJNjz2KdO6BkeWuyQd+J1yKCxjecGVkQ7W5NTt 9ThGYfzDuBIJCQhUIG+6xL3/2lsKY5b5SmjmkZsk5Awb+uOv760pMdciifbPNatb3RAh Qg1w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUN8Am4GyAcCJkz+C3h4HZ1TIF8m2Jdw6fUfP1A80wcG2t/Ya+b JJh2L0Mkjy2viKNDorncjU19DPOnhHhgpl4gEi9FYA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzKQbUIcjDiItoYJHhmo8eG422qwZ19TYLYiBzZ5Z7J2fEBhijqpjq2DXWVHhWOy80qVR/SG8H2TmgV/dSW4Nc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9758:: with SMTP id f24mr3890191ljj.105.1575509470817; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 17:31:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <5719.1575486149@localhost> In-Reply-To: <5719.1575486149@localhost> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 10:30:30 +0900 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005942bb0598eae218" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 01:31:16 -0000 --0000000000005942bb0598eae218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, Thanks for the helpful answers. Michael, > > > > *It occurs to me now that the development of an update protocol over > 802.15.4(which I mentioned in another email in this thread) might be > appropriatelydone in the 6tisch WG, since I actually think that the > bandwidth andscheduling of the update is probably the critical part.SUIT > has the security done... so we have the HOW. We just have the WHEN.* One other approach to explore, very applicable to FW updates, is multi-hop multicast, as in many scenarios you are updating more than one device, and many of them are identical (like lights on a big parking lot). --Simon On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:02 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > The signature verification was performed with the HACL library > (ed25519) on > > an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long > indeed, > > in this case. > > > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory > requirements (RAM > > usage) increase with the image size? > > I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED25519 > operation, and > how much time was the hash calculation. Only the hash calculation would > scale with the image size. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --0000000000005942bb0598eae218 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

Thanks for the helpful answers.

Michael,

It occurs to me now that the development of a= n update protocol over 802.15.4
(which I mentioned in another email in t= his thread) might be appropriately
done in the 6tisch WG, since I actual= ly think that the bandwidth and
scheduling of the update is probably the= critical part.
SUIT has the security done... so we have the HOW.=C2=A0 = We just have the WHEN.

One other approa= ch to explore, very applicable to FW updates, is multi-hop multicast, as in= many scenarios you are updating=C2=A0more than one device, and many of the= m are identical (like lights on a big parking lot).

--Simon

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:02 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:<= br>

Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The signature verification was performed with the HACL l= ibrary (ed25519) on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > an ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, = pretty long indeed,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > in this case.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory= requirements (RAM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > usage) increase with the image size?

I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED25519 op= eration, and
how much time was the hash calculation.=C2=A0 Only the hash calculation wou= ld
scale with the image size.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--0000000000005942bb0598eae218-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 06:33:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708C11200C7 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FjmLhYC4j27 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 06:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 740FF12002E for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 06:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D65AF3818F; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B16AAB; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 09:33:47 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3FUTF-8=3FQ=3FSzymon=5FS=3DC5=3D82upik=3F=3D?= cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <5719.1575486149@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:33:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable mcr> It occurs to me now that the development of an update protocol over mcr> 802.15.4 mcr> (which I mentioned in another email in this thread) might be mcr> appropriately mcr> done in the 6tisch WG, since I actually think that the bandwidth a= nd mcr> scheduling of the update is probably the critical part. mcr> SUIT has the security done... so we have the HOW. We just have the= WHEN. Szymon S=C5=82upik wrote: > One other approach to explore, very applicable to FW updates, is mult= i-hop > multicast, as in many scenarios you are updating more than one device= , and > many of them are identical (like lights on a big parking lot). I agree that this is an important aspect to explore. It requires that each hop is able to buffer the entire firmware update in a way that does not break the hash of it. If the firmware is execute in place and/or if the device is designed such that the bootstrap code validates the firmware on each boot, then keeping the firmware image in that form may not be a big imposition. We also did MPL ("mipple", RFC7733) in the ROLL WG, which would allow for the "download" of the firmware to be multicast. There are bandwidth, CPU a= nd network scheduling tradeoffs of each, which I think 6tisch is most capable = to consider. That's why I think that it's not a HOW anymore, but a WHEN. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3pFUsACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVJdAgAm8EhSraO7GvfshvCaljuzvmmNCwxwMk8JIBpnW967a9S/uP+Y4fS1duC LtXANBKmoZRJCGHMelHTqfMJUTvvp6DdAmW1CEZXaJCbuKwsh2a/PWOc2g03DxRl Z7cf7LkiXkQx5+2hxzJIAxV81xboJQi0XmaWY+syxY6Wt5wwiSpwOtVj7DPjne5c Zz3vlIL+bVHgDLe+R8KA2tURMuRAUkMKAeCLeDZeOJfadOakIlztVvvBLr/4z5C9 GJqlNJtk1o0+LhjBTuanWVV0UL70EDzQqTy9ER8FgzPmTJi3djYZPjbZvPa9yHD+ sYft1sFhiZ8YpIsF3GqruZb2PJNT+g== =m9rO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 6 06:18:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A01512080A for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 06:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR08MB3288 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 14:18:44 -0000 To finalise the information model, we need to address the issue raised at i= etf106: how big can an integrated payload be? The suggestion made at the me= eting was that no specific requirement should be made, but that the informa= tion model needed some text to explain the tradeoffs in size of payload. He= re is my proposal for that text. Best Regards, Brendan When an integrated payload is provided, this increases the size of the mani= fest. Manifest size can cause several processing and storage concerns that = require careful consideration. The payload can prevent the whole manifest f= rom being contained in a single network packet, which can cause fragmentati= on and the loss of portions of the manifest in lossy networks. This causes = the need for reassembly and retransmission logic. If the manifest is too la= rge to fit in RAM, then it must be processed modularly; first evaluating de= legation chains, then the security container, then processing the actual ma= nifest, which includes verifying the integrated payload. While the manifest= has been organised to enable this type of processing, it creates additiona= l complexity in the parser. If the manifest is stored to nonvolatile storag= e prior to processing, the integrated payload may cause the manifest to exc= eed the available storage. Because the manifest is received prior to valida= tion of applicability, authority, or correctness, integrated payloads cause= the recipient to expend network bandwidth and energy that may not be requi= red if the manifest is discarded and these costs vary with the size of the = integrated payload. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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8lvWW8Xbekvps8LjqfDJMhLD+qLZJmU3mmfGHWk6AuOsHIYeP8sqTDHjwkQAbg== To: suit@ietf.org References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <5719.1575486149@localhost> From: Koen Autocrypt: addr=koen@bergzand.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFfiUE0BEAC2GQfspM4LKuFBsuBVG5f8iKIg3SQIeyK5tG+fHrLYIt+qXIrya1rxX4MQ iGtJmG0F+iVOAZZXLvT3nd1L7jIvT83fUULRKsxGeq8swHhHRdtyiSNDCdpY3Z0PmF6nyoEV kevB5FHQPLWZIMdvX324ihJ1qN34yIBBy+Q2rk2FP8Dn0PDHcCwiY9PCzurpNDcEjQ2EdsO2 pFAUy8m04A0H9pH3Up/o6xhsQsbt4Q9U1YuGJiUpMXXBq+6hufafRtRjPIypr4LCYAVaKsds R5GxLcFrNXiMxDf3tVTrF2PebXhepamDbG7ujpiYZ5x8fKEFvrUJSM2Qz+agf0JqsueXowy7 nwNrcn9ygShydizAZ34OSphGCxnmJ6j6aTp/bo77GXJnvT3hACYHX7vmTg6ODII9pLQCYda4 ML2rL6u06oLnvyoC2Q7RQKgfMSDgA3Vx+yeWI4IoxmtNXjnFvrfGCIY347rhjBrQL4Za1xuL uw0YggCCIH1Qp6z+MNXcIuHEeS5HJJsUQlN6OfBwCWI2hfToilo+/7xv4sIc6+aknLhmE3H2 FuDYFh3Z7TUoLL3K/Jcx3ndmsajh3UNsnYPxiOLkFIKJgDfQg+Xi7eqVSaBslSPNjsw78lNc 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Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5719.1575486149@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 20:20:49 -0000 Hi all, > > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory requirements (RAM > > usage) increase with the image size? > > I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED25519 operation, and > how much time was the hash calculation. Only the hash calculation would > scale with the image size. The time we measured spent on hashing (SHA256)is comparatively small for the typical firmware sizes.It takes ~4ms per kB to hashon the platform used in the paper. Even with a 200kB binary,it takes just a fraction (~10%) of the time needed for signature verification and a tinier fraction if the binary is smaller. Best regards, Koen Zandberg From nobody Fri Dec 6 12:32:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4867D12006D for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 12:32:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M10r9gHBoCOj for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 12:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37EE212006B for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 12:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB66300B0B for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 15:32:41 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id gIFBIJy6ZSd4 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 15:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CB99300AE0; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 15:32:40 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 15:32:40 -0500 Cc: suit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <355773AB-A971-4690-9958-D32B24CAE23A@vigilsec.com> References: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> To: Brendan Moran X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 20:32:45 -0000 Brendan: I agree with the approach that you are taking here, but I am not sure = that every implementation will perform the checks in that order. They = all need to be checked, but as long as they are all checked before the = firmware is installed, then the implementation should be considered = conformant. I think the following would be better: .... If the manifest is too large to fit in RAM, then it must be = processed modularly, which includes evaluating delegation chains, = validating the security container, processing the actual manifest, and = verifying the integrated payload. ... Russ > On Dec 6, 2019, at 9:18 AM, Brendan Moran = wrote: >=20 > To finalise the information model, we need to address the issue raised = at ietf106: how big can an integrated payload be? The suggestion made at = the meeting was that no specific requirement should be made, but that = the information model needed some text to explain the tradeoffs in size = of payload. Here is my proposal for that text. >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, > Brendan >=20 >=20 > When an integrated payload is provided, this increases the size of the = manifest. Manifest size can cause several processing and storage = concerns that require careful consideration. The payload can prevent the = whole manifest from being contained in a single network packet, which = can cause fragmentation and the loss of portions of the manifest in = lossy networks. This causes the need for reassembly and retransmission = logic. If the manifest is too large to fit in RAM, then it must be = processed modularly; first evaluating delegation chains, then the = security container, then processing the actual manifest, which includes = verifying the integrated payload. While the manifest has been organised = to enable this type of processing, it creates additional complexity in = the parser. If the manifest is stored to nonvolatile storage prior to = processing, the integrated payload may cause the manifest to exceed the = available storage. Because the manifest is received prior to validation = of applicability,=20 > authority, or correctness, integrated payloads cause the recipient to = expend network bandwidth and energy that may not be required if the = manifest is discarded and these costs vary with the size of the = integrated payload. > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are = confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the = contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy = the information in any medium. Thank you. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit From nobody Fri Dec 6 16:39:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8011200F6 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 16:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URaFe2d8oYUG for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 16:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D47C120089 for ; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 16:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id a13so9500859ljm.10 for ; Fri, 06 Dec 2019 16:39:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=silvair-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=6Bpnu935sO7qhAdw4dEqwiFI7gA8uXheB4IsasErwQM=; b=j4qpetwdpJ4+I4jA7Mi2jmQxQjNF5SocjBWDQnKHu2ozzWFsMjVQ9EShEpb4mfIWBA pM3Jg+UfWS8T+841rEPz2dZiNBo3ICKQaN4IuFybj/EGyQ6EAo7pZ1IEmMiTNjgr/MGb dg0adg6lhqrb4ekemMp344RnwLyBVIh+cjuRS1hsWO66ZHvN4wr8cd3+gHg2oIqAtbys HR3H6PtsCv8KmiVBtR/1AiVbFl37kEKUJ6npgaA1Llra46OelSQ8GdibDYVXK6KwcTMW 7JzP5LRS5BRwpI/E2MZVK1xws40Xt6DbaEx/3Z5TDNNF3omudl/Q/woBNjoSA2lA8JOL Ix0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=6Bpnu935sO7qhAdw4dEqwiFI7gA8uXheB4IsasErwQM=; b=UrZPd1sH/pjZfX15wMRLvNQQcffozJNh3/NRcDBQRjS8pGG1W3fcocOP97z693siaI Ur1b92iChOfb0RjfMLyqKPaVwWtY6YIPSxazaWR+BmylGaaCTaM5b7WM64iT7L+W3H3/ KeaRqe7IY3bbtTlcAoD5vrJxa6nCj4DkCxVaM61e+7ni3KGJ6yn3XEXLoPBUH7vaqbL9 X+SH3Z6/y303TSmDR/R3FNc7DyVontNv77eUOTWjNihn/5mFxRDjHzZa+F3rP/hhssPg IDKsRDZK/AOlSHwN3ChIN4zqIMLKBPr8Iho5zQMWKELLdbbB2PsZgs5zrRfqZ1SfBYHH vsiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUw8kqKvZ9dyypgMEnFrE2UwI+B+pLK1SRTIA+Nw39Upn3JThjP P36CjSgAl6I8Djc+/zBqCPDwpx1s/AcwSXRtWTWftfF5r63IYQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzuYTxDJ3ulVnY5/erTf1LTGYPZ4sm/v1nz477g/br/7bMNr8k2C+9mO42GUD32SBvXLq0VcfzvvcL7ykORB6I= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9716:: with SMTP id r22mr10290077lji.224.1575679150695; Fri, 06 Dec 2019 16:39:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191127203651.GA117656@davidb.org> <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> <5719.1575486149@localhost> <0d577e33-0708-1b7b-a98b-de97559348db@bergzand.net> In-Reply-To: <0d577e33-0708-1b7b-a98b-de97559348db@bergzand.net> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Szymon_S=C5=82upik?= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2019 09:38:31 +0900 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ebe150599126425" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2019 00:39:16 -0000 --0000000000000ebe150599126425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > The time we measured spent on hashing (SHA256)is comparatively small for > the typical firmware sizes.It takes ~4ms per kB to hashon the platform > used in the paper. Even with a 200kB binary,it takes just a fraction > (~10%) of the time needed for signature verification and a tinier > fraction if the binary is smaller. Yes, that was actually my point, that with larger file sizes and in real mesh network scenario (multi-hop, not saturating the links) and more realistic file sizes (say 200kB), the transfer will be taking significantly more than the other operations. Thanks! --Simon On Sat, Dec 7, 2019 at 5:20 AM Koen wrote: > Hi all, > > > [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size? Do memory > requirements (RAM > > > usage) increase with the image size? > > > > I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED25519 > operation, and > > how much time was the hash calculation. Only the hash calculation would > > scale with the image size. > > The time we measured spent on hashing (SHA256)is comparatively small for > the typical firmware sizes.It takes ~4ms per kB to hashon the platform > used in the paper. Even with a 200kB binary,it takes just a fraction > (~10%) of the time needed for signature verification and a tinier > fraction if the binary is smaller. > > Best regards, > Koen Zandberg > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --0000000000000ebe150599126425 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The time= we measured spent on hashing (SHA256)is comparatively small for
the typ= ical firmware sizes.It takes ~4ms per kB to hashon the platform
used in = the paper. Even with a 200kB binary,it takes just a fraction
(~10%) of t= he time needed for signature verification and a tinier
fraction if the b= inary is smaller.

Yes, that was actually my poin= t, that with larger file sizes and in real mesh network scenario=C2=A0(mult= i-hop, not saturating the links) and more realistic file sizes (say 200kB),= the transfer=C2=A0will be taking significantly more than the other operati= ons.

Thanks!

--Simon

On Sa= t, Dec 7, 2019 at 5:20 AM Koen <koe= n@bergzand.net> wrote:
Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> [SS] Does that scale linearly with image size?= Do memory requirements (RAM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> usage) increase with the image size?
>
> I guess what we want to know is how much of that 7s time was the ED255= 19 operation, and
> how much time was the hash calculation.=C2=A0 Only the hash calculatio= n would
> scale with the image size.

The time we measured spent on hashing (SHA256)is comparatively small for the typical firmware sizes.It takes ~4ms per kB to hashon the platform
used in the paper. Even with a 200kB binary,it takes just a fraction
(~10%) of the time needed for signature verification and a tinier
fraction if the binary is smaller.

Best regards,
Koen Zandberg

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
--0000000000000ebe150599126425-- From nobody Wed Dec 11 09:51:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9100C120099 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=linaro.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILsUT_nAwOTh for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DEDF120088 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id l124so8447117qkf.8 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=nxs68j6xJIhA7NTLa1fXnrtrARQVxGYjs/ahP99EV4M=; b=d1XMei4Qn1nrM/EArELpKwooRZxhjb9WGxgYOk6ELjTKoKwbcJkWR9D8vtxMve8yf7 qp0M8tJS9z7k6u5m7eDAx8f8GKJPsgznb93zfdi///OBC8gQX1N1xs5Y59IZ22l8i1w4 UdN+o0/N98DKO5R/sdQNGIGF7zZ19730Clt8MSpt2j+YdYQEBLukt64f31P46aOhVhaJ MQ+ER+2Y1AHBV2tO1dGtOwUKlFZYbNNcQVdnkeduf7npCqzYgUSjIPs0v/byN1u3Oy2D bwNBaKlPG3B4YdFKNMTDi8mCqchnG0DLCBw9ZG3anC+b8VrovmT9WquxFRkIe0jBYwTN pHxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=nxs68j6xJIhA7NTLa1fXnrtrARQVxGYjs/ahP99EV4M=; b=fBs7yUZMYQJzPnURcCHG6+KOZlimUcfKcgEFGED38YLFnxdrapFk7BVZxc1jg1H1Ki H6Z+kum8rG81KeUKIRVxCd/HjZuD9zNbxrP/eKt3iMm3BPNn4R0MiML4GD2ghFwXQKfB I3/j1tMdf8C4aSAcyvH+6NjlVw0foGJv8cVYyuxI1k0xYSOw4i9l50A1JFXAuhGAU8sG +PsbTLdrxuZ+56Bw6rou+kBPpzN0Xyt7QF5tyk7ROaiftDpaomxLqHb/ltGK/oEg6EM8 cu2TMjtYXSk5X7nyNtQ8HP+oxmpKrMSAQITWObAl6oW+RooognuSxlxMXaZ7xZOo44eV r1Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVqdqOWOdfdCREfY703PLXloSskwk9U+tFd40wPfMp4cVykLzyw CzvWOIKjWD14G1FLa1B5Dhmbeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz1qEJBHwlKvKg6w+mK7cExo1Y+4X0qN2OykGNg7p/T4glo+eRNOGIVBiR/MTeLTU8LUb7gZw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:ba03:: with SMTP id k3mr4055954qkf.127.1576086691049; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidb.org (cn-co-b07400e8c3-142422-1.tingfiber.com. [64.98.48.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13sm1100473qtj.14.2019.12.11.09.51.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:51:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:51:27 -0700 From: David Brown To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: Emmanuel Baccelli , "suit@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191211175127.GA832567@davidb.org> References: <20191129183627.GA16289@davidb.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Fwd: Firmware Update Paper X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 17:51:35 -0000 On Wed, Dec 04, 2019 at 12:26:39PM +0000, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > The signature verification was performed with the HACL library (ed25519) on an > ARM Cortex-M0+ and took approx. 7 seconds -- so yes, pretty long indeed, in > this case. In MCUboot, we ended up using the fiat crypto library (ed25519). It does have a fairly large code footprint (about 18k), but does an ed25519 signature verification in 28ms (Cortex M4, 120Mhz). Most other smaller libraries were giving times like seen above, on the order of tens of seconds. For reference, libsodium ends up being about 130k of code, and was about 14ms for the verification. David From nobody Wed Dec 11 09:54:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AA061200DB for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=linaro.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8evVn9LAItQc for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DA08120099 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id z15so7038294qts.5 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=IVDDxBrNStnFGjg08TGBC01QLJtNuaI/7GsAsbe0tQ4=; b=hP/WbV8T1hbXkBBoz9XqfD8IjDdWrry89xInrKAfaE+Ft1xWgHxOdxzqaORDIvyN2n Y8zbXj4Y6y9i+d6pbyOoyGeIxFTReqqWl4V5luMz4htFCA5QPSYI0UcUJhlcRuJl+cDm gc2C8vzNAXxqtKCayiZiU8W/pNXOfRlN7Ia4RsiOALqt2mkmtuHQjT5X5uROAAKEwSIw D/OJaUI04PS3lFCd9treY2hkWW01gwReqISRukF58aVO08XszSoKJcPm+G6hoBFkAjAc TEJwlhOfKMmtQgmivk9N98ZVtQz6v7SXnBDD+h/RhbRIlsC4+x4bS3YPyKiVegyYqUrZ nMFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=IVDDxBrNStnFGjg08TGBC01QLJtNuaI/7GsAsbe0tQ4=; b=DuERuztWOPATDxLtnTRH422T2Y6wK2eM9pyv+peWpF7YkrL+Ji1tsGluWw/YLVEmUe po+u1udBg79Rs4W13amDvfFax6fS9/IhBOjCOnkT+GHbOScZg9dKYv5+P0HDenLE1ZTS KuQyRFucup3bZae7YUbahV+32uHs5YJXFc/rfJH1zPoPcMIUVQ1sfWAsTh8cBhtloILx u7Ip/HSoZTEyLv+sCDxnNKaLmkVFcu4HY7X05nThrtwVoY0yBi+lVfikwsbgy6AeKMzn Tj4pEr/++IdfwyRpzHnYlVBGvMv4h2eWN+5f85KxYAvOLYO1pd1QwMfIuF8+oDwraZ7Y Uw6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU1QMmO3evWUmPPXhJ4yFrXLpK6MjW6TzsaxkHQrQlUs4WNjpmz EO6ibTvaILG+6Rvi60HvHv7NzKhhJfmUTw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyh72nfmmBl1EWPmIQQOmCaMmfWV18qDxU2xv8MPHFtCMRh2UuLWXU6F/tb3D0uBqTWkKIQCg== X-Received: by 2002:aed:23bb:: with SMTP id j56mr3834906qtc.315.1576086894408; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from davidb.org (cn-co-b07400e8c3-142422-1.tingfiber.com. [64.98.48.55]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b42sm1173860qtb.36.2019.12.11.09.54.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 11 Dec 2019 09:54:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:54:51 -0700 From: David Brown To: Russ Housley Cc: Brendan Moran , suit Message-ID: <20191211175451.GB832567@davidb.org> References: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> <355773AB-A971-4690-9958-D32B24CAE23A@vigilsec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <355773AB-A971-4690-9958-D32B24CAE23A@vigilsec.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 17:54:57 -0000 On Fri, Dec 06, 2019 at 03:32:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote: > I agree with the approach that you are taking here, but I am not > sure that every implementation will perform the checks in that > order. They all need to be checked, but as long as they are all > checked before the firmware is installed, then the implementation > should be considered conformant. I think the following would be > better: > > ..... If the manifest is too large to fit in RAM, then it must be > processed modularly, which includes evaluating delegation chains, > validating the security container, processing the actual manifest, > and verifying the integrated payload. ... I have some similar concerns about this assumption that the manifest must be in RAM. With the existing MCUboot implementation we always process the manifest directly in-place in flash. There are steps of this processing that are done at every boot (we need to verify the signature of the image before booting). What is unclear to me is whether this wording is talking about the raw manifest itself, or some kind of in-memory decoded CBOR. I would expect smaller targets to always interpret the manifest directly, and not decode it into some kind of intermediate representation. David From nobody Wed Dec 11 10:37:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6AA41201DB for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:37:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X6gPNnCvI7iJ for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9FB91200C3 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9C838989 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 13:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72209A91 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 13:37:14 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: suit@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:37:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain The SUIT Architecture is clear that we need to prevent rollback attacks. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-suit-architecture-08#section-3.4 and this is also mentioned in SUIT-manifest 5.1. But I can't find any "hit-them-over-the-head" text in either Security Considerations explaining how a customer should do a planned back out of a upgrade. (Specifically: a higher manifest sequence number pointing at an older firmware binary) This implies that the customer/operator is able to produce signed manifests that the device is willing to trust. This has come up in the context of firmware updates for OpenBMC. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3xN1oACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUb7Af/XaNOUePrbTXNId8EC+GFNC2uz/gu6gu/zlhb5aXCH3kZ0QM8UkQrii7o oGOL67PQI6fTpEETpfETTL98a1TD0DEl2l+bDnXw+4ZHTardCaXPhivt/3VE7ET9 xz3J5Y7Pq2WnKF2VwXFzFUFbrdVa/rWCltP98x/0s0R408UwVYTfOF7PMQ5waI4k N/xWctOKKk3aJvlQvd0M/GFpkCjjzpUxMdAxcNEXuhd5+DH8QX4XAJcYMWd/OKoj UFgNz6UdIA62BvwEv70nhOGnh/E9Ptx4mdkom6CFHVjw8V/ZClFnq8efCXW06pK5 1WN1lH1n3a1ZQS6gQWzSNltVAHg0sg== =Ar4g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 11 10:46:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E787120821 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:46:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:46:28 +0000 Received: from MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a116:227:f704:a027]) by MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a116:227:f704:a027%14]) with mapi id 15.20.2538.012; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:46:27 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware Thread-Index: AQHVsFIJU4hNtQUZskaK7C4BDp4Nzqe1RLqw Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:46:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19658.1576089434@localhost> In-Reply-To: <19658.1576089434@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-12-11T18:46:26.0863194Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:MWHPR21MB0862; H:MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 79a0f13d-f0ec-4722-92d5-08d77e6a6e57 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Dec 2019 18:46:27.8710 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: r/buQfRuz9k8puz2HbUbKvHVz+elsqaPixwTNKFQ7KaYTvg31/WOteda0hG08O41px/9m3ujbtzlTVTffNr3icQfc5eC0IUBB/ffzs7uGuM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0862 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:46:52 -0000 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-suit-information-model-04#section-4.= 3.1 says: > Note: This is not a firmware version. It is a manifest sequence > number. A firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new > manifest for the old firmware version with a later sequence number. The information model doc is referenced in several places in the architectu= re, but maybe it should be explicit about the threat model is covered in de= tail in the information model document. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 10:37 AM To: suit@ietf.org Subject: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware The SUIT Architecture is clear that we need to prevent rollback attacks. https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftoo= ls.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-suit-architecture-08%23section-3.4&data= =3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cf061bcb0dab747e06b2e08d77e692a28%7C7= 2f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637116862460595657&sdata=3Dkp= 2u1h2skhvm1cn%2BhYRg0i5m7qe%2BAuvNzxLe464M1lw%3D&reserved=3D0 and this is also mentioned in SUIT-manifest 5.1. But I can't find any "hit= -them-over-the-head" text in either Security Considerations explaining how = a customer should do a planned back out of a upgrade. (Specifically: a higher manifest sequence number pointing at an older firmw= are binary) This implies that the customer/operator is able to produce signed manifests= that the device is willing to trust. This has come up in the context of firmware updates for OpenBMC. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Wed Dec 11 10:51:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62548120828 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 10:51:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8eDlB3yW-HTC for ; 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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:51:32 +0000 Received: from MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a116:227:f704:a027]) by MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a116:227:f704:a027%14]) with mapi id 15.20.2538.012; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:51:32 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Brendan Moran , suit Thread-Topic: Wording for integrated payload size Thread-Index: AQHVrEAJWYIMpqtbJEmLD8MchsbiNqe1T0sg Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:51:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> In-Reply-To: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-12-11T18:51:31.5170139Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:MWHPR21MB0832; H:MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a1bc4923-1edc-4ed1-c827-08d77e6b23fd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Dec 2019 18:51:32.6059 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4BvT4ysCqfISHw3wIa1Unmo/jEnHZeexn+Oxn8/sXB5QyFXzsohDQg+uNNuFn8YBkl6zeuw9fxetDHfTCsNasWSCMdeVs6SXe9wLuzYtL4I= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0832 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 18:51:36 -0000 Grammatical comment: "stored to" reads oddly to me. I'd suggest replacing with either "stored in" or "saved to". Dave -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of Brendan Moran Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 6:19 AM To: suit Subject: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size To finalise the information model, we need to address the issue raised at i= etf106: how big can an integrated payload be? The suggestion made at the me= eting was that no specific requirement should be made, but that the informa= tion model needed some text to explain the tradeoffs in size of payload. He= re is my proposal for that text. Best Regards, Brendan When an integrated payload is provided, this increases the size of the mani= fest. Manifest size can cause several processing and storage concerns that = require careful consideration. The payload can prevent the whole manifest f= rom being contained in a single network packet, which can cause fragmentati= on and the loss of portions of the manifest in lossy networks. This causes = the need for reassembly and retransmission logic. If the manifest is too la= rge to fit in RAM, then it must be processed modularly; first evaluating de= legation chains, then the security container, then processing the actual ma= nifest, which includes verifying the integrated payload. While the manifest= has been organised to enable this type of processing, it creates additiona= l complexity in the parser. If the manifest is stored to nonvolatile storag= e prior to processing, the integrated payload may cause the manifest to exc= eed the available storage. Because the manifest is received prior to valida= tion of applicability, authority, or correctness, integrated payloads caus= e the recipient to expend network bandwidth and energy that may not be requ= ired if the manifest is discarded and these costs vary with the size of the= integrated payload. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.= com%7C9d5dbf0c98c845d1453508d77a573609%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7= C1%7C0%7C637112387316385698&sdata=3DjvELlCP5PxSIqjoHOAG1NZkXyyn8oc2CPuO= m6g5WaTs%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Wed Dec 11 11:00:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4292F1200D6 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:00:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHmQ2nqcqcdj for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 111F6120052 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:00:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FF338989 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 13:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1334A91 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 14:00:46 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <19658.1576089434@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:00:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Dave Thaler wrote: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-suit-information-model-04#section-4.3.1 says: >> Note: This is not a firmware version. It is a manifest sequence >> number. A firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new >> manifest for the old firmware version with a later sequence number. > The information model doc is referenced in several places in the > architecture, but maybe it should be explicit about the threat model is > covered in detail in the information model document. Thank you for this pointer. I didn't think I'd find it in the info model, but in hindsight, it makes sense. It shows that I haven't paid enough attention to the information model document. (Damn WG conflicts. I see it's in WGLC, which I had spaced too) I want to suggest a tweak to the abstract: OLD: One component of such a firmware update is a concise and machine- processable meta-data document, or manifest, that describes the firmware image(s) and offers appropriate protection. This document describes the information that must be present in the manifest. NEW: One component of such a firmware update is a concise and machine- processable meta-data document, or manifest, that describes the firmware image(s) and offers appropriate protection. This document describes a series of security threats, along with the types of information that must be present in the manifest in order to deal with the threats. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl3xPN4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVo7Af+P5wZzyFvMch+jVe5xxct6W/PL9eoCqUPD/NHaRijRAzcP4PHilvKeedI KGJ5KmpOunGCXXRf6lJR+arg5JHtKxxBuVNfVRu1mt/TgIB/Q0evl6aaUVpr0f5n ZqmiJGJ+hwjVemvboLSmmMWx4hMVi3jiTcLze4OmS0e7PZJ49WsEpPCo5muP2tDv fyMQOw98k3QFfVGNCK8eA6aXFKZkZD6f32XLXTB3kuv4VaEXpbVjluGoPayQR1cP RSuqX9nXB9GcO52Tz4y/Ad/aZ20Iz/onLVBGR6QD4xg9HXv8Asq1knxtrffOQbVW 1sSr167QKoOnjdVWo4sRVVY8DYQD+w== =INq5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 11 11:02:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D654B120127 for ; 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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:02:49 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware Thread-Index: AQHVsFIJU4hNtQUZskaK7C4BDp4Nzqe1RLqwgAAFOACAAABlwA== Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:02:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19658.1576089434@localhost> <25447.1576090846@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25447.1576090846@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-12-11T19:02:48.4547902Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=96d343ae-fcb6-4692-9898-64c273294eb5; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ffb70b2b-1d4d-4d46-2bb3-08d77e6cb79f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Dec 2019 19:02:49.7984 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ajsH/bpv3uaxlt5OHESGew//4iCysVFEImIw13vW7FGT4LtoQPTUaplO65d2B8HcmabcTtZC8Z0+mv5PYPmmp4iljGkZB5VFy3AQCRalixQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0288 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:02:55 -0000 I agree with your suggestion. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Suit On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 11:01 AM To: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] intentional rollback of firmware Dave Thaler wrote: > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ft= ools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-suit-information-model-04%23section-4.3.1= &data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C8da182acd4f042b83d0308d77e6= c7328%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637116876569903627&s= data=3D4yKFRvergdIPAGoZt9zSXNBhP%2BxSlPRRDUpUH%2FOfYR0%3D&reserved=3D0 = says: >> Note: This is not a firmware version. It is a manifest sequence >> number. A firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new >> manifest for the old firmware version with a later sequence number. > The information model doc is referenced in several places in the > architecture, but maybe it should be explicit about the threat model = is > covered in detail in the information model document. Thank you for this pointer. I didn't think I'd find it in the info model, but in hindsight, it makes se= nse. It shows that I haven't paid enough attention to the information mode= l document. (Damn WG conflicts. I see it's in WGLC, which I had spaced too) I want to suggest a tweak to the abstract: OLD: One component of such a firmware update is a concise and machine- processable meta-data document, or manifest, that describes the firmware image(s) and offers appropriate protection. This document describes the information that must be present in the manifest. NEW: One component of such a firmware update is a concise and machine- processable meta-data document, or manifest, that describes the firmware image(s) and offers appropriate protection. This document describes a series of security threats, along with the types of information that must be present in the manifest in order to deal with the threats. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Thu Dec 12 08:54:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8537A1209CC for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 08:54:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v8AIdI3dMFXs for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 08:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 629C81209C5 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 08:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA19A3004B0 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:54:54 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Ow4XV5IYQPyR for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E577300472 for ; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:54:46 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F1913FC9-B600-45A2-8A47-AED6F986A212" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <76BC3DAB-B356-4FA4-BED1-27D21BAF4493@vigilsec.com> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:54:46 -0500 To: suit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] NIST posts a draft on stateful hash-based signatures X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:54:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F1913FC9-B600-45A2-8A47-AED6F986A212 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-208/draft = The draft includes HSS/LMS, which is the hash-based signature algorithm = that I have advocated in SUIT. Russ --Apple-Mail=_F1913FC9-B600-45A2-8A47-AED6F986A212 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
https://csrc.nist.gov/publications/detail/sp/800-208/draft<= br class=3D"">

The draft = includes HSS/LMS, which is the hash-based signature algorithm that I = have advocated in SUIT.

Russ

= --Apple-Mail=_F1913FC9-B600-45A2-8A47-AED6F986A212-- From nobody Tue Dec 17 04:05:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D9A1201CE for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 04:04:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=e0pGZ5oH; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com header.b=4tyPo/99 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B485120CE6 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:38:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTLQe-lfX2F1 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ED37120D55 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 11:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A8E38981; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6E2D36; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:38:02 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brendan Moran cc: Dave Thaler , suit In-Reply-To: <3EC3D5C9-1475-4659-BCE5-FEFFD7144248@arm.com> References: <734509A8-7562-4B47-AAE5-54F840C4A298@arm.com> <3EC3D5C9-1475-4659-BCE5-FEFFD7144248@arm.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Wording for integrated payload size X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 19:38:09 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brendan Moran wrote: > I see why the use of RAM as a requirement is surprising. There are two > requirements here. I believe that one of them is required and one is > optional. > It is required that the manifest be held invariant between verificati= on and > processing. This could mean storing in internal RAM or NVRAM, storing= in a > secure external memory, etc. I think that you are also attempting to defend against hardware attacks whe= re the contents of memory get changed mid-process. That's not *explicitely* stated in the text. But, it's why you speak about internal RAM (vs RAM), and I guess "secure external memory" means that it has some cryptographic checks not attackable From=20outside the SoC. Maybe the attempt to abstract the text is detracting from understanding? =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl35LpkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV9SAf/aqczeaiG6v+1u/MU6ub1nCVgrS6Q311PfBxScgrT37RHAz/N9rRS1v1O s6FaecE/3GW/UelgdrQtjyFOQ9/+lsXMq30MjJdLP0x8Q2A54P2smrySEq5ni72M Jc3/vvhatFHPMonwHpAEcLqZBfMRQb2QlMLi19RRP2g/pJVsGOcLGX9ZImH3Xuhc LssE83zGhIBZVh6I3F7Q/6LhNdqHBrKeBvIdteApzdLB+KOlpYl8/JWRrCqKDSoN CxmiccX5hvTG3NULBv4L2XGEApnti6OrvIpa6KLKzyrtgfwNrX2O9mjvwCrFQf/c M1t3Z7bw1xrM0zXzyt4XvDU7FVePpA== =43Dd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Dec 20 11:55:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B621209BD; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:55:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: rdd@cert.org, housley@vigilsec.com, suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.114.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157687174478.4133.3766593605411511419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 11:55:44 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] suit - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:55:45 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Russ Housley, a Chair of the suit working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Software Updates for Internet of Things Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Russ Housley Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 80 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: ipwave lamps stir teep ipsecme mile rats Key Participant Conflict: oauth secdispatch saag sipbrandy tls mls acme cfrg sacm People who must be present: Russ Housley Dave Thaler Roman Danyliw Hannes Tschofenig David Waltermire Henk Birkholz Brendan Moran Milosch Meriac David Brown Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Dec 23 03:08:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2057612007C for ; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 03:08:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR08MB4112 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Tooling for latest draft now in GitHub X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2019 12:13:19 -0000 I have update the suit-manifest-generator repo to the latest version of the= draft. See here: https://github.com/ARMmbed/suit-manifest-generator/pull/9 Best Regards, Brendan IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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draft-faibish-iot-ddos-usecases-01.txt X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2019 21:52:30 -0000 VGVhbSwNCg0KQmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGNvbW1lbnRzIG9mIFRFRVAgV0cgaXNzdWUgIzY1IHdhcyBj bG9zZWQgd2l0aCByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMgdG8gbW92ZSB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IHRvIGEgZGlmZmVy ZW50IFdHLiBCdXQgSSBqdXN0IHdhbnRlZCB0byBhZGQgbW9yZSBkZXRhaWxzIG9uIHRoZSBwcm9w b3NlZCB1c2VkIGNhc2VzIGFkZGluZyB0aGUgcmVsYXRpb24gdG8gTVVEIGFuZCBiZWZvcmUgbW92 aW5nIHRvIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IFdHIEkgd2FudCB0byBoYXZlIGEgbmV3IHJldmlldyBvZiB0aGUg ZHJhZnQuIA0KDQpBZnRlciBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBpbiB0aGUgam9pbnQgY2FsbCB3aXRoIFNVSVQg V0cgSSBhbSBjb25zaWRlcmluZyBwZXJoYXBzIG1vdmluZyB0aGUgZHJhZnQgdG8gU1VJVCBvciBS QVRTIGJhc2VkIG9uIERhdmUncyByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbnMuIFlldCBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBiZSBz dXJlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgd2lsbCBub3QgZ28gdG8gd2FzdGUgSSB3aWxsIGFzayB0byBtb3ZlIGl0 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