From nobody Fri Jul 4 13:21:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0D31B2F52 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:21:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vvgq6cMvPTSP for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linfre.de (linfre.de [83.151.26.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF7621B2F51 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 13:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linne.localnet (31.150.16.6) by linfreserv.linfre (Axigen) with (AES256-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA id 21CB8D; Fri, 4 Jul 2014 22:20:51 +0200 From: Karsten Thomann To: sunset4@ietf.org Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 22:22:41 +0200 Message-ID: <2571731.v0R2CeYG3c@linne> User-Agent: KMail/4.10.4 (Windows/6.1; KDE/4.10.4; i686; ; ) In-Reply-To: <000401cf9218$927fe780$b77fb680$@chinamobile.com> References: <20140620075046.6774.27066.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <53AD3845.7020603@linfre.de> <000401cf9218$927fe780$b77fb680$@chinamobile.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart1714805.vj9Fv5SKy7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-AXIGEN-DK-Result: No records DomainKey-Status: no signature X-AxigenSpam-Level: 5 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/hAR5IgNwcGdy6G7fE4_VTM8MjI0 Cc: "Fan, Peng" Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-fan-sunset4-router-id-00.txt X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2014 20:21:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart1714805.vj9Fv5SKy7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Peng, some additional comment to the draft as I now had some more time... The use of the term system id and 32 bit in one sentence is in my opinion a bit problematic as system id is an isis term and the sys id of isis is not 32 bit, but up to 48 bit. Also with some care it should be a possible solution to use the last 32bit (or 48 for isis) of the IPv6 address and convert them to decimal to generate the initial ID. I know thats the thing with hex converted "IPs" we already discussed, but this time instead of manuelly created ID as a way to create it automatically. Regards Karsten Am Freitag, 27. Juni 2014, 23:00:44 schrieb Fan, Peng: > Hi Karsten, > > Okay so it is inconvenient at least when we want to get the value of router > id from an address. > > This discussion does remind me of a saying that mixed notation is not > suggested... http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg12901.html > > Best regards, > Peng > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sunset4 [mailto:sunset4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karsten > > Thomann > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:24 PM > > To: Fan, Peng > > Cc: sunset4@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for > > draft-fan-sunset4- > > > router-id-00.txt > > > > Hi, > > > > The mixed notation can't be used, as it is converted to the hex version > > automatically and is stored as the /96 case in hex. > > ping 2001:db8::192.168.0.1 > > Pinging 2001:db8::c0a8:1 with 32 bytes of data: > > > > At least im not aware of a device which stores the IPv6 address in mixed > > notation, they accept it and convert it to the hex notation in /96, afaik. > > > > Regards > > Karsten > > > > Am 27.06.2014 10:43, schrieb Fan, Peng: > > > Hi Karsten, > > > > > > Thanks for the comment, please see reply inline [FP]. > > > > > >> I think the solution area should be extended by another possibility > > >> to > > > > > > embed > > > > > >> IPv4 addresses in v6, as the /96 version has to use the hex version > > >> of the > > > > > > ID, > > > [FP] Perhaps we can use the mixed notation, e.g. > > 2001:db8::192.168.255.1? > > > >> the use of a /80 could be used to store them in a format like > > >> 2001:db8::1921:6825:5001 or 2001:db8::0102:5525:0001. > > >> If you like to use an even better readable approach you can also use > > >> a /64 > > > > > > for > > > > > >> addresses like 2001:db8::192:168:255:1. > > > > > > [FP] Yes these approaches are quite human-friendly, thanks. > > > [FP] We can also consider if there is another solution besides address > > > mapping and other ideas in the draft. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Peng > > > > > >> Regards > > >> Karsten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sunset4 mailing list > > > sunset4@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sunset4 mailing list > > sunset4@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 --nextPart1714805.vj9Fv5SKy7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Peng,

 

some additional comment to the draft as I now had some more time...

The use of the term system id and 32 bit in one sentence is in my opinion a bit problematic as system id is an isis term and the sys id of isis is not 32 bit, but up to 48 bit.

 

Also with some care it should be a possible solution to use the last 32bit (or

48 for isis) of the IPv6 address and convert them to decimal to generate the initial ID.

I know thats the thing with hex converted "IPs" we already discussed, but this time instead of manuelly created ID as a way to create it automatically.

 

Regards

Karsten

 

Am Freitag, 27. Juni 2014, 23:00:44 schrieb Fan, Peng:

> Hi Karsten,

>

> Okay so it is inconvenient at least when we want to get the value of router

> id from an address.

>

> This discussion does remind me of a saying that mixed notation is not

> suggested... http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg12901.html

>

> Best regards,

> Peng

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: sunset4 [mailto:sunset4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karsten

> > Thomann

> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:24 PM

> > To: Fan, Peng

> > Cc: sunset4@ietf.org

> > Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for

>

> draft-fan-sunset4-

>

> > router-id-00.txt

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > The mixed notation can't be used, as it is converted to the hex version

> > automatically and is stored as the /96 case in hex.

> > ping 2001:db8::192.168.0.1

> > Pinging 2001:db8::c0a8:1 with 32 bytes of data:

> >

> > At least im not aware of a device which stores the IPv6 address in mixed

> > notation, they accept it and convert it to the hex notation in /96, afaik.

> >

> > Regards

> > Karsten

> >

> > Am 27.06.2014 10:43, schrieb Fan, Peng:

> > > Hi Karsten,

> > >

> > > Thanks for the comment, please see reply inline [FP].

> > >

> > >> I think the solution area should be extended by another possibility

> > >> to

> > >

> > > embed

> > >

> > >> IPv4 addresses in v6, as the /96 version has to use the hex version

> > >> of the

> > >

> > > ID,

> > > [FP] Perhaps we can use the mixed notation, e.g.

>

> 2001:db8::192.168.255.1?

>

> > >> the use of a /80 could be used to store them in a format like

> > >> 2001:db8::1921:6825:5001 or 2001:db8::0102:5525:0001.

> > >> If you like to use an even better readable approach you can also use

> > >> a /64

> > >

> > > for

> > >

> > >> addresses like 2001:db8::192:168:255:1.

> > >

> > > [FP] Yes these approaches are quite human-friendly, thanks.

> > > [FP] We can also consider if there is another solution besides address

> > > mapping and other ideas in the draft.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Peng

> > >

> > >> Regards

> > >> Karsten

> > >

> > > _______________________________________________

> > > sunset4 mailing list

> > > sunset4@ietf.org

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > sunset4 mailing list

> > sunset4@ietf.org

> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

>

> _______________________________________________

> sunset4 mailing list

> sunset4@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

--nextPart1714805.vj9Fv5SKy7-- From nobody Mon Jul 7 04:33:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA2A1A03AE for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 04:33:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.329 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_221=2.222, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lpXG7tc1AqTK for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 04:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A7D801A03B1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2014 04:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.7]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app05-12005 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee553ba8588a5a-ada5a; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 19:33:28 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee553ba8588a5a-ada5a Received: from adminPC (unknown[10.2.52.208]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr04-12004 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee453ba858761a-f4bdc; Mon, 07 Jul 2014 19:33:28 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee453ba858761a-f4bdc From: "Fan, Peng" To: "'Karsten Thomann'" , References: <20140620075046.6774.27066.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <53AD3845.7020603@linfre.de> <000401cf9218$927fe780$b77fb680$@chinamobile.com> <2571731.v0R2CeYG3c@linne> In-Reply-To: <2571731.v0R2CeYG3c@linne> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 19:33:28 +0800 Message-ID: <00cf01cf99d7$45f1b300$d1d51900$@chinamobile.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D0_01CF9A1A.5426A640" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFeuMtRPDgZ9J3EcOufl7BB+nvkbwEn6RmMAbp4QrIB9hoUrJxPbwGg Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/kfHYcM0gQ3m76ycN9QR3Vc4rvp0 Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-fan-sunset4-router-id-00.txt X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:33:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01CF9A1A.5426A640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karsten, Please see my reply inline [FP], thanks. From: Karsten Thomann [mailto:karsten_thomann@linfre.de] Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 4:23 AM To: sunset4@ietf.org Cc: Fan, Peng Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-fan-sunset4-router-id-00.txt Hi Peng, some additional comment to the draft as I now had some more time... The use of the term system id and 32 bit in one sentence is in my opinion a bit problematic as system id is an isis term and the sys id of isis is not 32 bit, but up to 48 bit. [FP] I'll remove "system id" if it seems problematic. I guess the ID we are talking about is most frequently referred to as "router id", so calling it "router id" is enough, although the device running the protocol is not necessarily a router. Also with some care it should be a possible solution to use the last 32bit (or 48 for isis) of the IPv6 address and convert them to decimal to generate the initial ID. I know thats the thing with hex converted "IPs" we already discussed, but this time instead of manuelly created ID as a way to create it automatically. [FP] Yes. We are actually focusing on two aspects: the generation of unique IDs and the possibility of binding ID with IP address. If IP address is planned beforehand, and router ID is not planned but left to admins to decide, then router ID can be determined using IP address, e.g. using hash as described in the document, or directly copying part of IP address as you have suggested (perhaps we can consider it as a simple hash). But it is possible that the same part of two IP addresses are the same, so we have to take care when doing this. Thanks and regards, Peng Regards Karsten Am Freitag, 27. Juni 2014, 23:00:44 schrieb Fan, Peng: > Hi Karsten, > > Okay so it is inconvenient at least when we want to get the value of router > id from an address. > > This discussion does remind me of a saying that mixed notation is not > suggested... http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg12901.html > > Best regards, > Peng > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sunset4 [mailto:sunset4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karsten > > Thomann > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:24 PM > > To: Fan, Peng > > Cc: sunset4@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for > > draft-fan-sunset4- > > > router-id-00.txt > > > > Hi, > > > > The mixed notation can't be used, as it is converted to the hex version > > automatically and is stored as the /96 case in hex. > > ping 2001:db8::192.168.0.1 > > Pinging 2001:db8::c0a8:1 with 32 bytes of data: > > > > At least im not aware of a device which stores the IPv6 address in mixed > > notation, they accept it and convert it to the hex notation in /96, afaik. > > > > Regards > > Karsten > > > > Am 27.06.2014 10:43, schrieb Fan, Peng: > > > Hi Karsten, > > > > > > Thanks for the comment, please see reply inline [FP]. > > > > > >> I think the solution area should be extended by another possibility > > >> to > > > > > > embed > > > > > >> IPv4 addresses in v6, as the /96 version has to use the hex version > > >> of the > > > > > > ID, > > > [FP] Perhaps we can use the mixed notation, e.g. > > 2001:db8::192.168.255.1? > > > >> the use of a /80 could be used to store them in a format like > > >> 2001:db8::1921:6825:5001 or 2001:db8::0102:5525:0001. > > >> If you like to use an even better readable approach you can also use > > >> a /64 > > > > > > for > > > > > >> addresses like 2001:db8::192:168:255:1. > > > > > > [FP] Yes these approaches are quite human-friendly, thanks. > > > [FP] We can also consider if there is another solution besides address > > > mapping and other ideas in the draft. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Peng > > > > > >> Regards > > >> Karsten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sunset4 mailing list > > > sunset4@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sunset4 mailing list > > sunset4@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01CF9A1A.5426A640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Karsten,

 

Please see my reply inline [FP], thanks.

 

From:= = Karsten Thomann [mailto:karsten_thomann@linfre.de]
Sent: = Saturday, July 05, 2014 4:23 AM
To: = sunset4@ietf.org
Cc: Fan, Peng
Subject: Re: = [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-fan-sunset4-router-id-00.txt

 

Hi = Peng,

 

some = additional comment to the draft as I now had some more = time...

The use of = the term system id and 32 bit in one sentence is in my opinion a bit = problematic as system id is an isis term and the sys id of isis is not = 32 bit, but up to 48 bit.

 

[FP] I’ll remove “system id” if it seems problematic. I = guess the ID we are talking about is most frequently referred to as = “router id”, so calling it “router id” is = enough, although the device running the protocol is not necessarily a = router.

 

Also with = some care it should be a possible solution to use the last 32bit (or =

48 for isis) = of the IPv6 address and convert them to decimal to generate the initial = ID.

I know thats = the thing with hex converted "IPs" we already discussed, but = this time instead of manuelly created ID as a way to create it = automatically.

 

[FP] Yes. We are actually focusing on two aspects: the generation of = unique IDs and the possibility of binding ID with IP address. If IP = address is planned beforehand, and router ID is not planned but left to = admins to decide, then router ID can be determined using IP address, = e.g. using hash as described in the document, or directly copying part = of IP address as you have suggested (perhaps we can consider it as a = simple hash). But it is possible that the same part of two IP addresses = are the same, so we have to take care when doing = this.

 

Thanks and regards,

Peng 

 

Regards<= /o:p>

Karsten<= /o:p>

 

Am Freitag, = 27. Juni 2014, 23:00:44 schrieb Fan, Peng:

> Hi = Karsten,

> =

> Okay so = it is inconvenient at least when we want to get the value of = router

> id from = an address.

> =

> This = discussion does remind me of a saying that mixed notation is = not

> = suggested... h= ttp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/idr/current/msg12901.html

> =

> Best = regards,

> = Peng

> =

> > = -----Original Message-----

> > = From: sunset4 [mailto:sunset4-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Karsten

> > = Thomann

> > = Sent: Friday, June 27, 2014 5:24 PM

> > = To: Fan, Peng

> > = Cc: sunset4@ietf.org

> > = Subject: Re: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification = for

> =

> = draft-fan-sunset4-

> =

> > = router-id-00.txt

> > =

> > = Hi,

> > =

> > = The mixed notation can't be used, as it is converted to the hex = version

> > = automatically and is stored as the /96 case in = hex.

> > = ping 2001:db8::192.168.0.1

> > = Pinging 2001:db8::c0a8:1 with 32 bytes of data:

> > =

> > At = least im not aware of a device which stores the IPv6 address in = mixed

> > = notation, they accept it and convert it to the hex notation in /96, = afaik.

> > =

> > = Regards

> > = Karsten

> > =

> > Am = 27.06.2014 10:43, schrieb Fan, Peng:

> > = > Hi Karsten,

> > = >

> > = > Thanks for the comment, please see reply inline = [FP].

> > = >

> > = >> I think the solution area should be extended by another = possibility

> > = >> to

> > = >

> > = > embed

> > = >

> > = >> IPv4 addresses in v6, as the /96 version has to use the hex = version

> > = >> of the

> > = >

> > = > ID,

> > = > [FP] Perhaps we can use the mixed notation, = e.g.

> =

> = 2001:db8::192.168.255.1?

> =

> > = >> the use of a /80 could be used to store them in a format = like

> > = >> 2001:db8::1921:6825:5001 or = 2001:db8::0102:5525:0001.

> > = >> If you like to use an even better readable approach you can = also use

> > = >> a /64

> > = >

> > = > for

> > = >

> > = >> addresses like 2001:db8::192:168:255:1.

> > = >

> > = > [FP] Yes these approaches are quite human-friendly, = thanks.

> > = > [FP] We can also consider if there is another solution besides = address

> > = > mapping and other ideas in the draft.

> > = >

> > = > Best regards,

> > = > Peng

> > = >

> > = >> Regards

> > = >> Karsten

> > = >

> > = > = _______________________________________________

> > = > sunset4 mailing list

> > = > sunset4@ietf.org

> > = > https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

> > =

> > = _______________________________________________

> > = sunset4 mailing list

> > sunset4@ietf.org

> > https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

> =

> = _______________________________________________

> sunset4 = mailing list

> sunset4@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/sunset4

<= /html> ------=_NextPart_000_00D0_01CF9A1A.5426A640-- From nobody Mon Jul 14 10:08:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA03B1A0ADF for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.285 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.285 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVdCkt_Os909 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw02.twcable.com (cdpipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.59.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6F71A0AE0 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 10:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.14 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,659,1400040000"; d="scan'208,217";a="409967539" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.14]) by cdpipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 14 Jul 2014 13:07:41 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.14]) with mapi; Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:08:16 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 13:08:13 -0400 Thread-Topic: Draft agenda posted Thread-Index: Ac+fhjMGbq2pw0LzR0e0IPCzJBn4Kg== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CFE986BD22A0Dwesleygeorgetwcablecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/ihVIHA04tWRuMowl4m2vkvigIXI Subject: [sunset4] Draft agenda posted X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 17:08:19 -0000 --_000_CFE986BD22A0Dwesleygeorgetwcablecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azrJS_3mge3p for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22b.google.com (mail-qc0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E8E31B2A62 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id i17so281823qcy.2 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6Zp8VTsHcKaiJHiju8trA/w2amYUTS3r/nuIfkogp/o=; b=zKntKZ5uXXLnwPIPUy7bMFM4ncubH2TiXAnDGwoDekMTWehdt9lSr9hCKACJiWaFf9 rX9gtAKaBCY/B2zoj6ex1KrbV5poBF65WG2PjpFdUExUD/JiM9gvzNMfhOTyOMbBhd9c H2HdkF3hvWCgsHQfxv4bHMKIG2W0y4B79x0uX013J6/ii5HCoHuA70u2Sq51ALKsaJXn oiRz6I34Wb0GBv2jYZa+30cmEL1kMG4v4neImtUAb67LOXzPjhlcTYtvPypBcgzP374N xE9QIry7ueDz4tGp9/HoomvUK75xpgp5kHxYLFUJb+vFvcFKFCr9o4LfypaOaA+/aM33 WEsA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.38.137 with SMTP id b9mr39937135qae.74.1405483862652; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.80.138 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:11:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140623183125.30660.24470.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 12:11:02 +0800 Message-ID: From: GangChen To: "George, Wes" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/44NHv16SDZlGNmub1NL61ZBx_4o Cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sunset4] FW: sunset4 - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 90 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 04:11:13 -0000 Hi Wes, I may miss the discussion on the agenda. The agenda haven't include the draft-chen-sunset4-cgn-port-allocation-04 May I suggest to reserve a time slot on this topic? The draft is updated since the last meeting. It converges various solutions into a unified document. It's helpful to get comments from the meeting and proceed. Many thanks Gang 2014-06-24 23:13 GMT+08:00, George, Wes : > Our WG session has been scheduled. Please begin discussing items for the > agenda. > > Here is a link to the preliminary agenda, final agenda published Friday, > so if there's a major conflict, we need to know ASAP. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/90/agenda.html > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/90/agenda.txt > > > Thanks, > > Wes > > > > On 6/23/14, 2:31 PM, ""IETF Secretariat"" wrote: > >>Dear Wesley George, >> >>The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. >>Below is the scheduled session information followed by >>the original request. >> >>sunset4 Session 1 (1:00:00) >> Thursday, Afternoon Session III 1730-1830 >> Room Name: Canadian size: 1000 >> --------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >>Request Information: >> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------- >>Working Group Name: Sunsetting IPv4 >>Area Name: Internet Area >>Session Requester: Wesley George >> >>Number of Sessions: 1 >>Length of Session(s): 1 Hour >>Number of Attendees: 150 >>Conflicts to Avoid: >> First Priority: softwire v6ops precis >> Second Priority: dhc intarea 6man homenet >> Third Priority: opsarea opsawg >> >> >>Special Requests: >> >>--------------------------------------------------------- >> > > > This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable > proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to > copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for > the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not > the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any > dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the > contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be > unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the > sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this > E-mail and any printout. > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > From nobody Wed Jul 16 11:00:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25331A012D for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 11:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIYsvEF7vaA5 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdpipgw02.twcable.com (cdpipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.59.23]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2639A1A0110 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 10:59:59 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.11 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,673,1400040000"; d="scan'208";a="414999226" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.11]) by cdpipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 16 Jul 2014 13:59:08 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.11]) with mapi; Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:59:52 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: GangChen Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 13:59:51 -0400 Thread-Topic: [sunset4] FW: sunset4 - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 90 Thread-Index: Ac+hH71IVxPuckjwS9ClvoY/W9+UlA== Message-ID: References: <20140623183125.30660.24470.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/GN7qAlybEiaOmqs2kYU2-O_O1YU Cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sunset4] FW: sunset4 - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 90 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2014 18:00:00 -0000 WWVzLCBJJ2xsIGFkZCB0aGF0Lg0KDQpJbiB0aGUgaW50ZXJlc3Qgb2YgdGltZSwgcGxlYXMgZm9j dXMgb24gZGlzY3Vzc2luZyBvcGVuIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQNCmlzc3VlcyByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiBy ZXZpZXdpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGZvciB0aG9zZSB3aG8gaGF2ZW4ndCByZWFkIGl0Lg0KDQoN ClRoYW5rcywNCg0KV2VzDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCk9uIDcvMTYvMTQsIDEyOjExIEFNLCAiR2Fu 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([10.136.163.78]) by PRVPEXHUB01.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.10]) with mapi; Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:35:25 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "draft-ietf-sunset4-gapanalysis@tools.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 10:35:23 -0400 Thread-Topic: Added gap for gap analysis Thread-Index: Ac+k8QHQ7tGZR+EvSOqRk6VdK/kxxA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CFF29D6B24E06wesleygeorgetwcablecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/EUJaSm8Q31k0xz2LtTnD-j6wqvo Cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" Subject: [sunset4] Added gap for gap analysis X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2014 14:35:28 -0000 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(lee@asgard.org@31.133.164.82) by 0 with ESMTPA; 24 Jul 2014 20:02:41 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.2.140509 Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:02:40 -0400 From: Lee Howard To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: review of draft-chen-sunset4-cgn-port-allocation Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3489062564_72026077" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/uTt66RM0oeXOwRfJbkaIqNzgzPI Subject: [sunset4] review of draft-chen-sunset4-cgn-port-allocation X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 20:02:50 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3489062564_72026077 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Doing my homework before the WG meeting this afternoon (and re-sending from the correct email address). . . This document needs significant work and reorganization. 1. Introduction You say: provide transparent routing to end hosts I think it should say: provide connectivity to end hosts Is it worth adding a sentence that these methods are only useful for addres= s sharing methods, not NPT, and not encapsulation mechanisms? It may not be necessary. But, for instance, this sentence: The CGN may not do Network Address Port Translation (NAPT), but only Network Address Translation (NAT) [RFC3022 ]. THat's not an rfc2119 "may not," it's a description of one scenario. I had to read it four times to figure that out; maybe it would be clearer as: > The CGN might do Network Address Port Translation > (NAPT) without Network Address Translation (NAT) [RFC3022 > ]. In > this scenario, there is no concern about port assignment. When NAPT is > involved, =8A Then you can enumerate the "does" and "does not" cases. independently of the particular flavour should be independent of the particular flavour Section 2.1 Port Consumption on NAT64 This editorializing is unnecessary: > Thanks to its simplicity and efficiency, NAT64 will likely be > deployed widely. Also, That is, a NAT44 will be deployed in an IPv4-only environment. NAT44 + Native IPv6 is a perfectly reasonable and likely scenario, so this is untrue. But this whole paragraph reads like a sales pitch for NAT64: cu= t it out. Second paragraph: One of the authors did a test comparison of port consumption on NAT64 and NAT44. Can you just cite the study? Can you say, "A study of port consumption [portstudy]. . ." Though again, this whole study is only true to a point i= n time (though what version of the Alexa100 includes 43 sites with AAAA I don't know). NAT64 "provides everyone with incentives to use IPv6," What incentives? Does it buy ice cream for everyone who uses IPv6? Either explain, or, since defending the use of NAT64 is out of place in this document, remove. [as v6 transition progresses,] it will be possible to relax the multiplexing ratio of IPv4 address sharing. This is a good point. change of IPv4 address will cause renumbering of IPv6 addresses. I don't see how. But again, I don't think this is intended as a NAT discussion document, I thought it was just evaluating port allocation methods. Clean up that paragraph. It has been learned from subscribers' behaviors that the average number of sessions consumed by one user's device is around 200 to 300 ports. Several devices may appear behind a CPE. Administrators may configure a range with 1000 ports to each CPE in fixed networks. Avoid the passive voice. Can you cite the 200-300 number? Is that true in 2014, or for as long as this document is intended to be useful? Yes, administators may configure 1000 ports. Or 1001. Or 999. Maybe what you mean is: 1000 ports per subscriber household will provide enough room for multiple active users. Administrators should monitor usage to adjust this number if users are being limited by this number, or if usage is so low that fewer ports would be sufficient. non-contiguous port range for the sake of attack defense. I think you explain this later in the document, but a reference to what you mean here would help. A+P style [citation needed] 2.3.1 Use of the word "older" sounds perjorative. Do you mean to imply that NAT64 is obsolete? Both in the title and text. Stepping outside the boundaries of NAT64 for the moment, DS-Lite [RFC6333 ] refers to the cautions in [RFC6269 ] but does not specify any port allocation method.=20 First, that's pretty informal language. Second, why point to DS-Lite pointing to RFC6269; why not just point to RFC6269? 2.3.2 Current Work on Stateless Transition Technologies The proposals made in Section 3 and Section 4 do not apply to the current work in progress because that work has gone in another direction. That work includes: Do we need to enumerate protocols that this work doesn't apply to? If so, then I think this document is making normative references to those protocol= s (since their port allocation methods could, potentially, change until they are published), which will delay publication until lw4over6, MAP-T, MAP-E, 4rd have all been published. Having said that, this may be a useful comparison of possible methods, but I would try to limit it to that. Sections 2.4.1 and 2.4.2 are excellent. 2.4.3 s/alllocation/allocation 3.1 US means U.S.? Americans have higher traffic profiles? 3.2 Remove sentence "Here is how dynamic allocation of port-ranges would work in greater detail. " 3.3 Section 11 of RFC6269 refers to fragmentation; you mean section 12. Is this section supposed to be a privacy considerations section? Discoverability? I think in the era of Pervasive Surveillance, reference t= o other IETF work is needed. Also, please refer to RFC6302. I'm not sure, though, that the discussion of server port logging is appropriate in a document about how to allocate ports in CGN. A mention of it makes sense, but evaluating the capability of different web servers, wit= h a config guide, seems out of place. These "traceability" issues apply equally to all port allocation methods, right? Maybe a Privacy Considerations section at the end. I didn't review section 4, because I've reviewed it before. And I ran out of time. 5. Security Considerations needs a rewrite=8Bit completely ignores Section 4. That's all I have on this round. Lee --B_3489062564_72026077 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Doing my homework befor= e the WG meeting this afternoon (and re-sending from the correct email addre= ss). . .

This document needs significant work and r= eorganization.  

1. Introduction
You= say:
provide transparent routing to end hosts
I think it should say:
provide connectivity to end h= osts

Is it worth adding a sentence that thes= e methods are only useful for address sharing methods, not NPT, and not enca= psulation mechanisms?  It may not be necessary.
But, for inst= ance, this sentence: 
The CGN may not do Network Addr= ess Port Translation   (NAPT), but only Network Address Translatio= n (NAT) [RFC3022].

THat's not an rfc2119 "may not," it's a descript= ion of one scenario.  I had to read it four times to figure that out; m= aybe it would be clearer as:
T=
he CGN might do Network Address Port Translation
   (NAPT) without Network Address Translation (NAT) [RFC3022].  In
   this scenario, there is no concern about port assignment. When NAPT is i=
nvolved, …
Then you can enumerate the "d= oes" and "does not" cases.

independently of the particular flavour should be independent of th=
e particular flavour
Section 2.1 Port Consumption on = NAT64

This editorializing is unnecessary:
Thanks to its simplicity and efficiency=
, NAT64 will likely be
   deployed widely.

Also,
 That is, a NAT44 will be deploye=
d in an
   IPv4-only environment.  
NAT44 + Native IPv6 is a p=
erfectly reasonable and likely scenario, so this is untrue.  But this whole =
paragraph reads like a sales pitch for NAT64: cut it out.
Second paragraph:
One of the authors did a test comparison of port consum=
ption on NAT64
   and NAT44.
Can you just cite the study?  Can you say, "A s=
tudy of port consumption [portstudy]. . ."  Though again, this whole study i=
s only true to a point in time (though what version of the Alexa100 includes=
 43 sites with AAAA I don't know).

NAT64 "provides everyone with incentives to use IPv6,"What incentives= ? Does it buy ice cream for everyone who uses IPv6? Either explain, or, si= nce defending the use of NAT64 is out of place in this document, remove.

= 
[as=
 v6 transition progresses,] it will be possible to relax the
   multiplexing ratio of IPv4 address sharing.
This is=
 a good point.

 change of IPv4 address will cause
   renumbering of IPv6 addresses.

I don't see how.  But again, I don't think this is intended as a NAT discus=
sion document, I thought it was just evaluating port allocation methods.  Cl=
ean up that paragraph.

It has been learned from subs=
cribers'
          behaviors that the average number of sessions consumed by one
          user's device is around 200 to 300 ports.  Several devices may
          appear behind a CPE.  Administrators may configure a range
          with 1000 ports to each CPE in fixed networks.
Avoid the passive voice.  Can you cite the 200-300 number?  Is that true =
in 2014, or for as long as this document is intended to be useful?  Yes, adm=
inistators may configure 1000 ports.  Or 1001.  Or 999.  Maybe what you mean=
 is:
 1000 ports per subscriber household will provide =
enough room for multiple active users.  Administrators should monitor usage =
to adjust this number if users are being limited by this number, or if usage=
 is so low that fewer ports would be sufficient.

non-contiguous port range for the
      sake of attack defense.
I think you explain this later in the document, but a reference to =
what you mean here would help.
A+P style [c=
itation needed]

2.3.1  Use of the word "older"=
 sounds perjorative.  Do you mean to imply that NAT64 is obsolete?  Both in =
the title and text.
Stepping outside
   the boundaries of NAT64 for the moment, DS-Lite [RFC6333] refers to
   the cautions in [RFC6269] but does not specify a=
ny port allocation
   method. 
First, that's pr=
etty informal language.  Second, why point to DS-Lite pointing to RFC6269; w=
hy not just point to RFC6269?
2.3.2 Current Work on Stateless Transition Technologies
=

The proposals made in Section 3 and Section 4 do not apply
   to the current work in progress because that work has gone in another
   direction.  That work includes:
Do we need to enumerate protocols that this work doesn't apply to?  I=
f so, then I think this document is making normative references to those pro=
tocols (since their port allocation methods could, potentially, change until=
 they are published), which will delay publication until lw4over6, MAP-T, MA=
P-E, 4rd have all been published.  Having said that, this may be a useful co=
mparison of possible methods, but I would try to limit it to that.
Sections 2.4.1 and 2.4.2 are ex=
cellent.
2.4.3 s/alllo=
cation/allocation
3.1 =
US means U.S.?  Americans have higher traffic profiles?
3.2 Remove sentence "Here is how dy=
namic allocation of port-ranges would work in greater detail. "
3.3 Section 11 of RFC6269 refers to fragm=
entation; you mean section 12.  Is this section supposed to be a privacy con=
siderations section?  Discoverability?  I think in the era of Pervasive Surv=
eillance, reference to other IETF work is needed.  Also, please refer to RFC=
6302.
I'm not sure, th=
ough, that the discussion of server port logging is appropriate in a documen=
t about how to allocate ports in CGN.  A mention of it makes sense, but eval=
uating the capability of different web servers, with a config guide, seems o=
ut of place.
These "tr=
aceability" issues apply equally to all port allocation methods, right?  May=
be a Privacy Considerations section at the end.
I didn't review sectio=
n 4, because I've reviewed it before.  And I ran out of time.
5. Secur=
ity Considerations needs a rewrite—it completely ignores Section 4.
That's all I have on thi=
s round.
Lee

--B_3489062564_72026077-- From nobody Thu Jul 24 15:17:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F791A0364 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 15:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_NO_TEXT=2, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_TVD_MIME_NO_HEADERS=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11hcUUxFSqLs for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B74831A00DE for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6882820012 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 58EA663B0E; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A53663B0A for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2014 18:17:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: sunset4@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 23.4.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/Pc4dsxlmbmAydSs6_Cpo-cS4eEw Subject: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2014 22:17:28 -0000 --=-=-= Lorenzo spoke at the mic about a "drive-by" attack on an IPv4-only network. I just want to make it clear about who and how people is impacted. 1) It's an IPv4-only network. 2) It has "modern" hosts, built after publication of draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4. 3) It's open to some form of attackers. So the "Starbucks" coffee-shop network of 2018. It seems somewhat realistic to me. I'm excluding home wifi networks, because I assume that they are either layer-2 secure, or can identify brother/sister attacks through other means. The attacker sends a number of IPv6 RAs per second. They don't have to use a lot of bandwidth to do this; they just need to to beat the newly booting/connecting host's emitting a DHCPv4 DISCOVER. The host, ignoring that this is a hint, has to suppress *all* DHCPv4 DISCOVER messages when it sees the RA noipv4 option. If the host has successfully sent a DISCOVERY message, it might get an DHCPv4 OFFER, which may or may not be bogus (maybe the RA is legit and the DHCP is bogus), and if it does, it would assume that there is v4, and would configure IPv4. I think that Lorenzo's concerns are real. He feels, I think, that given the degree to which the noipv4 option would be a hint to do DHCPv4 less often, rather than to turn it off completely, that it would therefore become useless. My understanding is that the problem with DHCPv4 discovers is that they are layer-2 broadcasts, and just asking it killing some larger networks that were trying to benefit from savings by deploying IPv6. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBU9GF8YCLcPvd0N1lAQI2zAgAvSGqeQvIeIavnypKgmlQjRoZhMkkMxfO AUN9oV/r8PybkTFme24qLJYO1wpA6wH91X5HWgPRcJPeT46keK88dnw9lAj1OiZD rwk81n8hyAowFzSrlZW2XpsAUD0HElqzNixps6LIWVKxWhZRR63a2sgoBXFHnwY3 n5VBbAYysp2N8lXCoOPYrjNq09LHbRooWs1Y1lHl9UlkyElOJ3gA4/+FbscCF6Yo bMuje0Bw83Og2oPus7rGze2LTIkAwOL3Skg1+APe7RXMsMe03uQ3+BRzf8bULZWB tXhDKa4I7WTV8ZEvb127WUB1wIp8E8VdbVrS7ituqc2WVEFwphNWRA== =yfBo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jul 25 05:39:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF831A0028 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2014 05:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVhWqsbmaUru for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2014 05:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jazz.viagenie.ca (jazz.viagenie.ca [IPv6:2620:0:230:8000::2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD88C1B2825 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2014 05:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h226.viagenie.ca (h226.viagenie.ca [206.123.31.226]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28F3A403DD; Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Blanchet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 08:38:56 -0400 Message-Id: To: "" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/vGgNaNk1j8xfSK2vOoDQuWej3Dc Cc: sunset4-chairs Subject: [sunset4] ietf90 sunset4 minutes posted X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 12:39:02 -0000 Hello, minutes of ietf90 sunset4 session are posted. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/90/minutes/minutes-90-sunset4 Thanks to the contributors to the Etherpad, such as Wes and ... Please send modifications to co-chairs Marc&Wes From nobody Sun Jul 27 09:37:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9281A0A99 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 09:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.162 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.162 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_24_48=1.34, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6lr2Axjy4NX for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 09:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 419121A0A97 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 09:37:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2300; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1406479034; x=1407688634; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=VGQheLdniCCYrJHJrKdJeXqk8oBAP9rpHHoGF0ZcnSo=; b=S+8xu21CYm6oyZHY/B9q0Pn8RDhe2rXA6WMJo18bcNF3cFqxzyOcl60S xZ3DqSM+QGdn3Gc4RpGF9V42EVOj+SFYOk7sB+of+p6JPvqrHADykigTx +wWbF8wxTcWzScx7afM5TYxEv1f9Y+slXSb4GjcpVkt9TPf458hwpD1Zr w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiUFAJAp1VOtJV2P/2dsb2JhbABOCimCZVJXy1cKhnJTAYEKFneEBAEBAwEBAQE3NAsQC0YnMAYTiDoIDbxsEwSOcCkzB4MvgRsFm0yUTIIDgWIhLw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,743,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="343191705" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2014 16:37:14 +0000 Received: from sjc-vpn1-811.cisco.com (sjc-vpn1-811.cisco.com [10.21.99.43]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s6RGb9tY016385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:37:11 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 21:05:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/pXVUEtRekehCTo3MBS5N8_Smqlw Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:37:16 -0000 On Jul 24, 2014, at 6:17 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Lorenzo spoke at the mic about a "drive-by" attack on an IPv4-only = network. > I just want to make it clear about who and how people is impacted. > 1) It's an IPv4-only network. > 2) It has "modern" hosts, built after publication of = draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4. > 3) It's open to some form of attackers. Specifically, the network has to allow an arbitrary host to send an IPv6 = RA. Doesn't that open the network to a pile of attacks, including an = attacker-controlled IPv6 DNS server (RFC6106) and attacker-controlled = IPv6 default route? -d >=20 > So the "Starbucks" coffee-shop network of 2018. > It seems somewhat realistic to me. >=20 > I'm excluding home wifi networks, because I assume that they are = either > layer-2 secure, or can identify brother/sister attacks through other = means. >=20 > The attacker sends a number of IPv6 RAs per second. > They don't have to use a lot of bandwidth to do this; they just need = to to > beat the newly booting/connecting host's emitting a DHCPv4 DISCOVER. >=20 > The host, ignoring that this is a hint, has to suppress *all* DHCPv4 = DISCOVER > messages when it sees the RA noipv4 option. >=20 > If the host has successfully sent a DISCOVERY message, it might get an = DHCPv4 > OFFER, which may or may not be bogus (maybe the RA is legit and the = DHCP is > bogus), and if it does, it would assume that there is v4, and would = configure > IPv4. >=20 > I think that Lorenzo's concerns are real. > He feels, I think, that given the degree to which the noipv4 option = would be > a hint to do DHCPv4 less often, rather than to turn it off completely, = that > it would therefore become useless. >=20 > My understanding is that the problem with DHCPv4 discovers is that = they are > layer-2 broadcasts, and just asking it killing some larger networks = that were > trying to benefit from savings by deploying IPv6. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 From nobody Sun Jul 27 14:46:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C43C1A0368 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMHnywemhN7p for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com (shell-too.nominum.com [64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 169211A0366 for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07491B877F for ; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EE8D190052; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.10.40] (71.233.43.215) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM (192.168.1.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Sun, 27 Jul 2014 14:46:24 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 17:45:55 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> To: Dan Wing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Originating-IP: [71.233.43.215] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/oi382IBWhCfphrUURZcuvZC7cgg Cc: Michael Richardson , sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2014 21:46:28 -0000 On Jul 25, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > Specifically, the network has to allow an arbitrary host to send an = IPv6 RA. Doesn't that open the network to a pile of attacks, including = an attacker-controlled IPv6 DNS server (RFC6106) and attacker-controlled = IPv6 default route? It does, but if the network provides DHCP service and the attacker = either fails to answer faster, or is prevented from acting as a DHCP = server, then happy eyeballs will take care of the broken IPv6 service. = If your portable device is using any protocols that are susceptible to = MiTM attacks, you shouldn't be connecting it to networks anyway, so we = don't have to care about snooping, right? :) So compare that to no-IPv4, where if this is propagated using RA or = DHCPv6, it's possible to actually shut off the IPv4 connection and = prevent the user from connecting over the IPv4 internet. From nobody Mon Jul 28 06:29:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEF501A0255 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:28:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.134 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRthYwlugAmm for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw02.twcable.com (cdcipgw02.twcable.com [165.237.91.111]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD3D1A01D5 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:28:55 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.14 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.01,749,1400040000"; d="scan'208,217"; a="90704941" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.14]) by cdcipgw02.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 28 Jul 2014 09:27:33 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.79]) by PRVPEXHUB05.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.14]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:28:54 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:28:53 -0400 Thread-Topic: gap analysis Thread-Index: Ac+qZ+AkRclHE6rrTgCI+rrbbZjUHA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CFFA92BE29A85wesleygeorgetwcablecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/UEpKhTYpUH_E0d8dDcsisc7Osiw Subject: [sunset4] gap analysis X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:28:58 -0000 --_000_CFFA92BE29A85wesleygeorgetwcablecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdGhhdCB3ZSBoYWQgZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5nLCBh bmQgYW5vdGhlciBxdWljayBwYXNzIEkgbWFkZSB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBnYXAtYW5hbHlzaXMgZG9j dW1lbnQgd2l0aCBhbiBleWUgdG93YXJkIGhvdyB0byBwcm9jZWVkIChXR0xDIG9yIG1vcmUgcmV2 aXNpb25zKSwgSSBoYXZlIHNvbWUgY29tbWVudHMgdGhhdCBjYW4gaG9wZWZ1bGx5IGJlIGluY29y cG9yYXRlZCBpbnRvIHRoZSBuZXh0IHJldmlzaW9uIHRvIHVwZGF0ZSB0aGUgZXhwaXJhdGlvbiBk YXRlLg0KDQpUaGVzZSBjb21tZW50cyBhcmUgbWFkZSBhcyBhbiBpbmRpdmlkdWFsLCBub3QgYXMg YSBjaGFpcjoNCg0KUmlnaHQgbm93LCBJIGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgZ2FwIGFuYWx5c2lzIGlzIGEg Yml0IHRoaW4uIFdoaWxlIGl0IGRvZXMgZGlzY3VzcyBzZXZlcmFsIGlzc3VlcyBzcGVjaWZpY2Fs 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--_000_CFFA92BE29A85wesleygeorgetwcablecom_-- From nobody Mon Jul 28 06:42:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792441A03FD for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.935 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1hOIJo2_zy4 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AD541A01CB for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 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Re: [sunset4] review of draft-chen-sunset4-cgn-port-allocation X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:42:18 -0000 --_000_CFFBC87029B73wesleygeorgetwcablecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWRkaXRpb25hbCBjb21tZW50czoNCg0KQ2hhaXI6DQpBcyBub3RlZCBkdXJpbmcgdGhlIG1lZXRp bmcsIGlmIHRoZSBkZXRlcm1pbmlzdGljIENHTiBzZWN0aW9uIGlzIHRvIHN0YXkgaW4gdGhpcyBk b2N1bWVudCAod2UnbGwgY2FsbCBjb25zZW5zdXMgb24gdGhhdCBzZXBhcmF0ZWx5IGFzIGEgcGFy dCBvZiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsKSwgdGhlIElQUiBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgZnJvbQ0KaHR0cHM6Ly9k YXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9pcHIvc2VhcmNoLz9vcHRpb249ZG9jdW1lbnRfc2VhcmNoJmRv Y3VtZW50X3NlYXJjaD1kcmFmdC1kb25sZXktYmVoYXZlLWRldGVybWluaXN0aWMtY2duIHdpbGwg bmVlZCB0byBiZSB1cGRhdGVkIHRvIHBvaW50IHRvIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaW5zdGVhZC4NCg0K 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[173.178.42.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id g35sm22661765qgf.49.2014.07.28.06.52.27 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Jul 2014 06:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:52:27 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sunset4@ietf.org References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> In-Reply-To: <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/qvPp0IuYybw5feJwzrTlyBDANjk Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:52:33 -0000 Le 2014-07-27 17:45, Ted Lemon a écrit : > On Jul 25, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Dan Wing wrote: >> Specifically, the network has to allow an arbitrary host to send an IPv6 RA. Doesn't that open the network to a pile of attacks, including an attacker-controlled IPv6 DNS server (RFC6106) and attacker-controlled IPv6 default route? > > It does, but if the network provides DHCP service and the attacker either fails to answer faster, or is prevented from acting as a DHCP server, then happy eyeballs will take care of the broken IPv6 service. Dan didn't say "broken", he said "attacker-controlled", possibly (my guess) thinking of the infamous "SLAAC attack" [*]. Happy eyeballs is useless here. The new vulnerability introduced by No-IPv4 over RA is the "drive by" nature of the attack: contrary to the SLAAC attack, the attacker doesn't need to remain on the network. It can shut off the victim's IPv4 access quickly then drive away. Simon [*] http://resources.infosecinstitute.com/slaac-attack/ From nobody Mon Jul 28 07:31:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8014D1B2836 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nL1JR-k3VS50 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com (shell-too.nominum.com [64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0F531B282A for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94108F8005 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-01.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.131]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 892FE190052; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.5.229] (64.134.240.245) by CAS-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM (192.168.1.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 07:31:10 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 10:30:51 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> To: Simon Perreault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Originating-IP: [64.134.240.245] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/OXG3d4h-JCEJTik3wOadX8GTBpQ Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:31:14 -0000 On Jul 28, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Simon Perreault = wrote: > Dan didn't say "broken", he said "attacker-controlled", possibly (my = guess) thinking of the infamous "SLAAC attack" [*]. Happy eyeballs is = useless here. This is the MiTM attack I referred to in the previous message. If you = are not using secure protocols, you are always vulnerable to MiTM. From nobody Mon Jul 28 08:31:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5381B288D for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:30:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nd4JPVrkLMyh for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38741B289A for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:30:47 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.12 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,749,1400040000"; d="scan'208";a="101456948" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB03.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.12]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 28 Jul 2014 11:29:58 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.79]) by PRVPEXHUB03.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.12]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 11:30:40 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "Fan, Peng" , "sunset4@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 11:30:39 -0400 Thread-Topic: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-fan-sunset4-router-id-00.txt Thread-Index: Ac+qeOKydHpLJ5v6RAe9Txm/NoC8+w== Message-ID: References: <20140620075046.6774.27066.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: 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d="scan'208";a="343382496" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2014 16:26:18 +0000 Received: from [10.21.119.225] ([10.21.119.225]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s6SGQHck027278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:26:18 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Dan Wing In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:26:16 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6D291158-F0C6-4BE4-851B-366B2F0B2540@cisco.com> References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> To: Ted Lemon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/l7_4b9LXRhBUAj7WBkNs52T9B64 Cc: Simon Perreault , sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:26:31 -0000 On Jul 28, 2014, at 7:30 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Jul 28, 2014, at 9:52 AM, Simon Perreault = wrote: >> Dan didn't say "broken", he said "attacker-controlled", possibly (my = guess) thinking of the infamous "SLAAC attack" [*]. Happy eyeballs is = useless here. >=20 > This is the MiTM attack I referred to in the previous message. If = you are not using secure protocols, you are always vulnerable to MiTM. Considering RA Guard (RFC6105) and DHCP guard are necessary, so I don't = see draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 creating a *new* risk. I agree improving security of RA and DHCP (e.g., = draft-ietf-dhc-sedhcpv6) are helpful, but in the intervening days = between today and ubiquitous availability of deployable and secure RA = and DHCP, a responsible network needs to block spoofed router = advertisements from non-routers and prevent DHCP spoofing from non-DHCP = servers. Simon bought up an interesting point that an attacker abusing NOIPV4 = needs only send a few packets and would have a lasting impact. The = attacker need not stay on the network to have a lasting impact. -d From nobody Mon Jul 28 12:52:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A225E1A038E for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.935 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U0TtfLaSD2oF for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdcipgw01.twcable.com (cdcipgw01.twcable.com [165.237.91.110]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EFA1A017A for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:52:20 -0700 (PDT) X-SENDER-IP: 10.136.163.11 X-SENDER-REPUTATION: None X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,751,1400040000"; d="scan'208,217";a="101867050" Received: from unknown (HELO PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com) ([10.136.163.11]) by cdcipgw01.twcable.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-MD5; 28 Jul 2014 15:51:34 -0400 Received: from PRVPEXVS15.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.79]) by PRVPEXHUB02.corp.twcable.com ([10.136.163.11]) with mapi; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 15:52:19 -0400 From: "George, Wes" To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 15:52:17 -0400 Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 Thread-Index: Ac+qnXA+vfJ7ZKTORAWe+6CZ1q0l7g== Message-ID: References: <489D13FBFA9B3E41812EA89F188F018E1B6189FF@xmb-rcd-x04.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <489D13FBFA9B3E41812EA89F188F018E1B6189FF@xmb-rcd-x04.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bb5v-zGB0_-M for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-too.nominum.com (shell-too.nominum.com [64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2421A0140 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090171B8505 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-02.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B105B190052; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.19.131.156] (12.130.116.84) by CAS-02.WIN.NOMINUM.COM (192.168.1.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:17:02 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <6D291158-F0C6-4BE4-851B-366B2F0B2540@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:16:50 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <13154328-4C85-4E8D-850A-8E5498E5276B@nominum.com> References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> <6D291158-F0C6-4BE4-851B-366B2F0B2540@cisco.com> To: Dan Wing X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Originating-IP: [12.130.116.84] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/jwBX1Gy1P97GcqydLEw20J69t-M Cc: Simon Perreault , sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:17:06 -0000 On Jul 28, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Dan Wing wrote: > Simon bought up an interesting point that an attacker abusing NOIPV4 = needs only send a few packets and would have a lasting impact. The = attacker need not stay on the network to have a lasting impact. Yup, that's what I said too. Dunno why we're still talking about it! = :) From nobody Mon Jul 28 13:22:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8001A00EB for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9TKK7HkLrSs for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-f41.google.com (mail-qa0-f41.google.com [209.85.216.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1287F1A00C0 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qa0-f41.google.com with SMTP id j7so8788228qaq.14 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZR6NV4Kj8CrwebEkInhurRYLZWQjKGya62CqhM5CDiw=; b=WuuLc+YyISphcQtifWPQnYCPCTkFsaofSoS52vhHmxFGo0MW7yXqWcGaqfrvqX1iok rh3dAg53VIgAe/d4sd0qvVU1t1+7Xv98uYZcpu2qL0Fl6xT7uWJLPCvY551AFAmOWW5W dU0yMjY31xb61i1GUfUT08hums7+FuRCL6GcW7s9DL0+6tx/ER+8nG0u8RE5cPT2ihn7 2QR3Nknb4/p6jPSZACZxicYlb4xlIPES+c622taOqj/ZNyUuKE5MWJKK68Fo8CddYy2T /bMrp3+6gC4TefxtvqeXXcGn2/acqq/GNFJAWr19BJhW0rPKmSA4PKeDujeL9J3Qx8Od CBTA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmQg+gCEr1zC1hVm5BSz89fkjL9M82ypMFLNucJf9CQRfDhCkC6Bq+9L9BEp2e99xC5WN3P X-Received: by 10.140.95.241 with SMTP id i104mr65822361qge.6.1406578948191; Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.96] (modemcable233.42-178-173.mc.videotron.ca. [173.178.42.233]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l8sm31353042qao.10.2014.07.28.13.22.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 28 Jul 2014 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53D6B101.7060303@jive.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:22:25 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon , Dan Wing References: <11190.1406240244@sandelman.ca> <3B647D53-0E22-43C3-892D-319C9109248C@nominum.com> <53D6559B.2090300@jive.com> <6D291158-F0C6-4BE4-851B-366B2F0B2540@cisco.com> <13154328-4C85-4E8D-850A-8E5498E5276B@nominum.com> In-Reply-To: <13154328-4C85-4E8D-850A-8E5498E5276B@nominum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sunset4/BvavirjpFxeACpbBAvm-AMBzcCs Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sunset4] to summarize Lorzeno's "drive-by" attack on draft-ietf-sunset4-noipv4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2014 20:22:30 -0000 Le 2014-07-28 16:16, Ted Lemon a écrit : > On Jul 28, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Dan Wing wrote: >> Simon bought up an interesting point that an attacker abusing NOIPV4 needs only send a few packets and would have a lasting impact. The attacker need not stay on the network to have a lasting impact. > > Yup, that's what I said too. Dunno why we're still talking about it! :) Because communication is hard! :) Simon