From nobody Tue Apr 3 08:15:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E850120724 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:15:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aS6r9A-gVK7N for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (mx1.sbone.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:130:3ffc::401:25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDBFD127869 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4509E25D3A12 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:15:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CEB8D1F832 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:15:24 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iLj6ogdSTp24 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:15:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.8.0.6] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66759D1F7FD for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:15:21 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: sunset4@ietf.org Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:15:20 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6106) Message-ID: <1AEC6EC2-4F7B-479B-A060-185304478498@lists.zabbadoz.net> References: <152253440272.23706.3081497166127801526.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [sunset4] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:15:30 -0000 Hi, during the first sunset4 meeting I mentioned on jabber: “[22:12:29] Have you guys concluded the WG yet? I thought the only reason to open it was to close it again immediately and be done with the stuff.” [1] Seems years after this hasn’t happened yet, so it’s time to get you there. Despite the submission date, this wasn’t an April Fool Draft. I am serious. - timeline - end node policy - and technical implementation suggestion. Trying to KISS. Your clock is ticking.. humm. /bz [1] https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/sunset4/2012-07-30.html Forwarded message: > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:13:22 -0700 > > A new version of I-D, draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Bjoern A. Zeeb and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-bz-v4goawayflag > Revision: 00 > Title: IPv6 Router Advertisement IPv4 GoAway Flag > Document date: 2018-04-01 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bz-v4goawayflag/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bz-v4goawayflag > > > Abstract: > This document specifies a Router Advertisement Flag to indicate to > end nodes that IPv4 support must be disabled on this link. In > addition this document presents a policy and a timeline on how to > deal with this flag and the going-away of IPv4. This document > updates RFC5175. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat From nobody Tue Apr 3 08:48:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCBFA129C6C for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnhpo-TaVV0L for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in6.apple.com (mail-out6.apple.com [17.151.62.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B7BC126B7E for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=apple.com; s=mailout2048s; c=relaxed/simple; q=dns/txt; i=@apple.com; t=1522770500; x=2386684100; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-id:To:Cc:MIME-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:In-reply-to:References:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=sRlMbPKswffwChdX4OCv7dFIsSHyBWwsIX6rFlF5CGU=; b=ApCwkzF3iHDfD3vaEp9d/J1AgkjEp2DxE3A1Cb8AYP+bvX8O6PmpolhDmyq2OwOl afO+N6DBKOUNck7zEI/klmSm8LGrG+3MtgyPfmV7eoCte1W5VkPDP21AedfznNwc qSH9b7qjX13C1JZDTObnXx0ENajc9PMWvQFdUtyuAzd8wElieTYgFu0q3n83DUuc UNahOndwyBeE5bEkFqtGPG6ul3L2+D60bgkAnBmp5Jt1T89DCv4UK5MzhqwwaPsr VpC5nFLR63op9/Lewj4uypmOfHOIiO7VeKbNRqYQvMpU7O0mdKi6YKzY+9vebz28 sk9Y0tdd5bMNeYURTyyXzA==; Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.90]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail-in6.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id E0.46.28259.442A3CA5; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e15-f06549e000006e63-32-5ac3a244182c Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com [17.128.115.216]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 93.21.23861.442A3CA5; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.234.16.170] by nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.2.20180130 64bit (built Jan 30 2018)) with ESMTPSA id <0P6M00K2Y98HRM90@nwk-mmpp-sz13.apple.com>; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 08:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: <1AEC6EC2-4F7B-479B-A060-185304478498@lists.zabbadoz.net> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 08:48:16 -0700 Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <152253440272.23706.3081497166127801526.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1AEC6EC2-4F7B-479B-A060-185304478498@lists.zabbadoz.net> To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYpeuy6HCUwdEVphbXl7lbrNyzn92B yWPJkp9MHt3/vQOYorhsUlJzMstSi/TtErgyvj4xLHgiVrH65ReWBsblQl2MnBwSAiYSCzde Yu1i5OIQEljNJDFp7UpmuMTd1YwQiQ1MEr8X/WEESfAKCEr8mHyPpYuRg4NZQF1iypRciJqv jBIr3twDaxYWkJbounCXFcIOkNiwfC4rSD2bgJbEgTVGIGFOATeJ9U9Os4DYLAKqEk9+vQYb zywgIjFtz0x2CFtb4sm7C6wQa20kdu1cD3VPJ6PE5u1L2EBmigiYSiw9yghxs5LE9O+32SDs v6wSl5+4TGAUnoXk6lkIV89CsmEBI/MqRqHcxMwc3cw8M73EgoKcVL3k/NxNjKCAnm4nuoPx zCqrQ4wCHIxKPLwBCw5HCbEmlhVX5h5ilOZgURLnXVQFFBJITyxJzU5NLUgtii8qzUktPsTI xMEp1cC4zGr9CZuy551yUhcjRLTk3sWJej0XUduupft9q9fXmF33YvbpMncuOFZ2emHekTP1 rZ3zt/n+qjv16ceEEqZDE8SWr7u38cu1pcW//K6wm6w+I1E9o+BFd+7smrg1p2/2+Ot2OSre 03m8Y8suuzLTe22cOqZyq4N+Xp70ZF/8ns2zXYq/qL1+pMRSnJFoqMVcVJwIACU7+CtJAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FB8Q9dl0eEog6knjSyuL3O3WLlnP7sD k8eSJT+ZPLr/ewcwRXHZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlfH1iWPBErGL1yy8sDYzLhboYOTkkBEwkFt5d zdjFyMUhJLCBSeL3oj+MIAleAUGJH5PvsXQxcnAwC6hLTJmSC1HzlVFixZt7zCA1wgLSEl0X 7rJC2AESG5bPZQWpZxPQkjiwxggkzCngJrH+yWkWEJtFQFXiya/XYOOZBUQkpu2ZyQ5ha0s8 eXeBFWKtjcSuneuh7ulklNi8fQkbyEwRAVOJpUcZIW5Wkpj+/TbbBEaBWUgunYVw6SwkUxcw Mq9iFChKzUmsNNNLLCjISdVLzs/dxAgOwcKoHYwNy60OMQpwMCrx8AYsOBwlxJpYVlyZe4hR goNZSYR3bhZQiDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOG8n184oIYH0xJLU7NTUgtQimCwTB6dU AyOn8PRtfvINNxVknjUq/GXSfCy2+6PTIY6OD6d8z1zUKGs2yH61NpvVc+98rxNv7/k3eFdK JmvcXfw4eaf7qis89kcVbI7ks9qsc34l/4rpxaWU1Yq7fuqv1TUwOb9u4qb8Gbo/jW2W7NLX PyjtLCGzbLbH5sJ1a+PMRP6cMnWr37VooUqwar4SS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCvhHOoPQIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] New Version Notification for draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:48:27 -0000 Hi Bjoern, A few comments: 1) The draft keeps mentioning the end node "policy" but never defines = it. What does "disable IPv4 on this link" mean? 2) Unless you have a crystal ball that predicts the future, the timeline = is not useful. IPv4 will stop being supported when support costs outweigh user = benefits, not on an arbitrary anniversary. 3) Do we really need two flags (IPv4 Unavailable vs IPv4 GoAway) for = this purpose? 4) What problem is this trying to solve? All in all, pretty good April Fool Draft, thank you. David > On Apr 3, 2018, at 08:15, Bjoern A. Zeeb = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > during the first sunset4 meeting I mentioned on jabber: > =E2=80=9C[22:12:29] Have you guys concluded the WG = yet? I thought the only reason to open it was to close it again = immediately and be done with the stuff.=E2=80=9D [1] > Seems years after this hasn=E2=80=99t happened yet, so it=E2=80=99s = time to get you there. >=20 > Despite the submission date, this wasn=E2=80=99t an April Fool Draft. > I am serious. >=20 > - timeline > - end node policy > - and technical implementation suggestion. >=20 > Trying to KISS. >=20 > Your clock is ticking.. humm. >=20 > /bz >=20 >=20 > [1] https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/sunset4/2012-07-30.html >=20 >=20 > Forwarded message: >=20 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt >> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:13:22 -0700 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Bjoern A. Zeeb and posted to the >> IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-bz-v4goawayflag >> Revision: 00 >> Title: IPv6 Router Advertisement IPv4 GoAway Flag >> Document date: 2018-04-01 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 7 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bz-v4goawayflag/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00 >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bz-v4goawayflag >>=20 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document specifies a Router Advertisement Flag to indicate to >> end nodes that IPv4 support must be disabled on this link. In >> addition this document presents a policy and a timeline on how to >> deal with this flag and the going-away of IPv4. This document >> updates RFC5175. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 From nobody Mon Apr 9 16:10:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E160812D87B for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:10:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UPZ-BuWI6r4W for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (bird.sbone.de [46.4.1.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CEA612D86F for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 16:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD8E425D3A6E; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 23:10:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0548D1F935; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 23:10:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvUz9jey0t7S; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 23:10:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.88] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F05F5D1F8EF; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 23:10:10 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "David Schinazi" Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:10:09 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6108) Message-ID: <04C73FF5-F570-4AB8-AD06-E2495FFDA43A@lists.zabbadoz.net> In-Reply-To: References: <152253440272.23706.3081497166127801526.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <1AEC6EC2-4F7B-479B-A060-185304478498@lists.zabbadoz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] New Version Notification for draft-bz-v4goawayflag-00.txt X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:10:20 -0000 On 3 Apr 2018, at 15:48, David Schinazi wrote: Hi, > A few comments: A few answers: > 1) The draft keeps mentioning the end node "policy" but never defines > it. 3. End node policy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3.1. Mandatory end node rules . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 policy: “a set of ideas … of what to do in particular situations …” rule: “an accepted principle or instruction that states the way things are or should be done, and tells you what you are allowed or are not allowed to do” > What does "disable IPv4 on this link" mean? What does “Usage: networksetup -setv4off Turn IPv4 off on .” mean? disable: “to stop something such as (part of) a machine, system, or .. from working” > 2) Unless you have a crystal ball that predicts the future, the > timeline is not useful. > IPv4 will stop being supported when support costs outweigh user > benefits, not on an arbitrary anniversary. Well, it is obvious at this point that agreeing on how to very gracefully getting anywhere is not working. So the problem is not a priority or a problem at all. If you do not have a deadline to work against, you won’t. I give you this deadline. Ans as we say “pick a number”; I picked dates. For me, the costs of supporting IPv4 started 8 years ago when I went ipv6-only to my edges. Since shortly after that I have been paying extra to keep IPv4 alive for the people who still haven’t moved to even DS on basic infrastructure. So don’t blame me for you not moving. For the past years people have been telling the world that the costs for DS > for single stack. > 3) Do we really need two flags (IPv4 Unavailable vs IPv4 GoAway) for > this purpose? Maybe? One is for saving resources, the other is for making something go away; if you agree on the latter the former will be obsolete in a few years and is just another extra graceful step towards the end. If you’d prefer to have GoAway earlier and with that not need Unavailable, then (a) the GoAway draft gives you the opportunity, and (b) I can move the dates earlier for -01 to save you the work for Unavailable. Even simpler. > 4) What problem is this trying to solve? What is the future you are avoiding to accept? > All in all, pretty good April Fool Draft, thank you. Thanks, just that it’s not. /bz