From nobody Mon May 14 21:51:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B7012EAC8 for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 21:51:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bBhEhCml4Hv2 for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 21:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-1.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58D74129C51 for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 21:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 14 May 2018 21:51:18 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Mon, 14 May 2018 21:51:18 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Closing Sunset4 Thread-Index: AQHT7AhcBqCZz9NOpUKFtvxnWAONlw== Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 04:51:17 +0000 Message-ID: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <773A080EE04A0B46A4F1A004C394D587@pexch112.icann.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 04:51:23 -0000 RGVhciBXRywNCg0KSSBmZWVsIHRoZSB0aW1lIGhhcyBjb21lIHRvIGNsb3NlIFN1bnNldDQuIEFz IHlvdSBhbGwgbXVzdCByZWFsaXNlIElFVEYgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cHMgYXJlIHRoZXJlIHRvIGRv IHdvcmssIGFuZCBpbiBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHdpdGggdGhlIGNvLWNoYWlycyBpdCBhcHBlYXJzIHRo YXQgdGhlIGxpc3Qgb2YgcG90ZW50aWFsIHdvcmsgZm9yIFN1bnNldDQgaGFzIGRyaWVkIHVwLiBJ dCBtYXkgYmUgdGhhdCBzb21lIGFjdGl2aXR5IG9uIGEgc2ltaWxhciB0b3BpYyBpcyBuZWVkZWQg aW4gdGhlIGZ1dHVyZSwgaG93ZXZlciBJIGZlZWwgdGhhdCBhIGZ1dHVyZSBib2R5IG9mIHdvcmsg c2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgY2hhcnRlciBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgZm9yIHRoYXQgaXRl bS4gSXQgaGFzIGFsc28gYmVlbiBtYWRlIHF1aXRlIGNsZWFyIHdpdGggdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb25z IHN1cnJvdW5kaW5nIHRoZSBsYXN0IFN1bnNldDQgV0cgaXRlbSB0aGF0IHRoZSBJRVRGIGFuZCB0 aGUgaW50ZXJuZXQgaW5kdXN0cnkgYXJlIHNpbXBseSBub3QgcmVhZHkgdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBz dGF0dXMgb2YgSVB2NCB3aGlsZSwgaW4gcmVhbGl0eSwgdGhlIG1vdmUgdG8gSVB2NiAob25seSkg d2lsbCBiZSBhIHZlcnkgbG9uZy10YWlsZWQgZXhlcmNpc2UuIA0KDQpJ4oCZZCBsaWtlIHRvIHRo YW5rIGFsbCBXRyBtZW1iZXLigJlzIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbnMgb3ZlciB0aGUgbGlmZSBvZiB0aGlz IFdHLiBTb21lIG9mIHRoZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBoYXZlIGJlZW4gYm90aCBleGNpdGluZyBhbmQg aW5zaWdodGZ1bC4gDQoNCkFzIEFELCBJIHdvdWxkIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgbGlrZSB0byB0aGFuayBN YXJjIEJsYW5jaGV0IGFuZCBXZXMgR2VvcmdlIGZvciBjby1jaGFpcmluZyBTdW5zZXQ0IHdpdGgg cHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsaXNtIGFuZCBlbnRodXNpYXNtLiBUaGFua3MgTWFyYyBhbmQgV2VzISENCg0K VGhlIFdHIHdpbGwgYmUgb2ZmaWNpYWxseSBjbG9zZWQgbGF0ZXIgdGhpcyB3ZWVrLCBhbG9uZyB3 aXRoIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QuDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBhbGwhDQoNCkNoZWVycw0KVGVycnkg KHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIEFEIGZvciBTdW5zZXQ0KQ== From nobody Mon May 14 22:29:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087D21275F4 for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 22:29:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6LNGVV5jMgTy for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 22:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B20A31200C1 for ; Mon, 14 May 2018 22:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 50005B0; Tue, 15 May 2018 07:29:23 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1526362163; bh=pYhpOTaLNDY/JG6VfbwRYR2nVPCX8ZT/CYdN1slfklQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=bzs+mrXj3/ercE44pt3rt5boEodNwJIJUjSWORvSAJPN8XvwowPS23SAtEDL5VhKX tCAtEse7l4tKWs08AXIh+rxJgeKs2iiEggPRNLD7JQvSu0rRd8c4dfdlI1IhbAOsde tDu9JlprT+hpL9Bmc0m/5kFCQS/TZb4IHxMtc/dE= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A156AF; Tue, 15 May 2018 07:29:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 07:29:23 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Terry Manderson cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> Message-ID: References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 05:29:26 -0000 On Tue, 15 May 2018, Terry Manderson wrote: > different charter specifically for that item. It has also been made > quite clear with the discussions surrounding the last Sunset4 WG item > that the IETF and the internet industry are simply not ready to change > the status of IPv4 while, in reality, the move to IPv6 (only) will be a > very long-tailed exercise. When MIF was closed, work was directed to another working group. I'd like to see similar guidance for the closing of this WG. There is still work to be done, for instance the discussions in v6ops/6man on an "no-v4-here"-flag is quite obvious fit there, but other discussions/guidance on how to behave when there seems to be no IPv4 around, where should this take place? For instance discussions on backoff timers for DHCPv4 / DNSSD v4 usage in the abscence of no automatic v4 seen when connecting? I can understand that the discussions we've had are not enough to warrant a WG, but it doesn't mean there are no discussions at all. It would be good if they had a home. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue May 15 00:08:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C342712DA27 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 00:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 634obx_pATLZ for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55FE712D0C3 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1526368132; x=1526972932; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=/6tTrS/sfd7GPEze3jSxd t45mKWyf99Y4K2TTP6j6ns=; b=M9tbNVAjIWAGcf1bMK4Pa2m/IeVbwKjixit5W UqoCUMabWcyZWK8g8KdXF+TFZ/nsLwbaxOHFSUA5wzFlmPh+WtWGfV9w8Ja3JTvN YYemZSDYvPX9ksBqw6FkxGKWf/Nc0bly8SUYe+o0grWoHqL3TQKiC329CXHce1qd LH9gvU= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 15 May 2018 09:08:52 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 15 May 2018 09:08:51 +0200 Received: from [193.0.24.79] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005770325.msg for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 09:08:51 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:67c:64:42:282f:e6b6:e11e:4b91 X-MDHelo: [193.0.24.79] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 09:08:51 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1673d456f0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: sunset4@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 09:08:34 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Message-ID: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 07:08:57 -0000 I disagree with this decision. Just look into any other WG. Compare the number of people in the mailing li= st and the number of contributions. This is a general issue in IETF, most of the people in the list is not real= ly contributing at all. I think sunset4 is needed, and it may happen that the pace of the work, is = a bit slower than in other WGs, but we should keep the WG alive. It is possible to at least keep the mailing list working? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: sunset4 en nombre de Terry Manderson Fecha: martes, 15 de mayo de 2018, 6:51 Para: "sunset4@ietf.org" Asunto: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 Dear WG, =20 I feel the time has come to close Sunset4. As you all must realise IETF= Working Groups are there to do work, and in discussion with the co-chairs = it appears that the list of potential work for Sunset4 has dried up. It may= be that some activity on a similar topic is needed in the future, however = I feel that a future body of work should have a different charter specifica= lly for that item. It has also been made quite clear with the discussions s= urrounding the last Sunset4 WG item that the IETF and the internet industry= are simply not ready to change the status of IPv4 while, in reality, the m= ove to IPv6 (only) will be a very long-tailed exercise.=20 =20 I=E2=80=99d like to thank all WG member=E2=80=99s contributions over th= e life of this WG. Some of the discussions have been both exciting and insi= ghtful.=20 =20 As AD, I would especially like to thank Marc Blanchet and Wes George fo= r co-chairing Sunset4 with professionalism and enthusiasm. Thanks Marc and = Wes!! =20 The WG will be officially closed later this week, along with the mailin= g list. =20 Thank you all! =20 Cheers Terry (responsible AD for Sunset4) _______________________________________________ sunset4 mailing list sunset4@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue May 15 01:20:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82B512D7E2 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 01:20:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bKig4zxGCYjc for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 01:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas5.jacobs-university.de (atlas5.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FCA12D77E for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 01:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (demetrius5.irc-it.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) by atlas5.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8217A6E8; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from atlas5.jacobs-university.de ([10.70.0.217]) by localhost (demetrius5.jacobs-university.de [10.70.0.222]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id eeOFLDnpP0N7; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de (hermes.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "hermes.jacobs-university.de", Issuer "Jacobs University CA - G01" (verified OK)) by atlas5.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.47]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1CF20035; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at jacobs-university.de Received: from hermes.jacobs-university.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius2.jacobs-university.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mEIMluQgakl0; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from elstar.local (unknown [10.50.231.133]) by hermes.jacobs-university.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D216520031; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: by elstar.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8986D42E548C; Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 10:20:47 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180515082047.sbhsefbwig6ri4ze@elstar.local> Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Mail-Followup-To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "sunset4@ietf.org" References: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> User-Agent: NeoMutt/20171215 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 08:20:55 -0000 Jordi, the tools page [1] indicates - chartered in 2012 (6 years ago) - zero RFC's published - all I-Ds expired - last I-D update 2017-09-18 and I understand that the IESG does not consider this to be effective. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/sunset4/ /js On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 09:08:34AM +0200, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > I disagree with this decision. > > Just look into any other WG. Compare the number of people in the mailing list and the number of contributions. > > This is a general issue in IETF, most of the people in the list is not really contributing at all. > > I think sunset4 is needed, and it may happen that the pace of the work, is a bit slower than in other WGs, but we should keep the WG alive. > > It is possible to at least keep the mailing list working? > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: sunset4 en nombre de Terry Manderson > Fecha: martes, 15 de mayo de 2018, 6:51 > Para: "sunset4@ietf.org" > Asunto: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 > > Dear WG, > > I feel the time has come to close Sunset4. As you all must realise IETF Working Groups are there to do work, and in discussion with the co-chairs it appears that the list of potential work for Sunset4 has dried up. It may be that some activity on a similar topic is needed in the future, however I feel that a future body of work should have a different charter specifically for that item. It has also been made quite clear with the discussions surrounding the last Sunset4 WG item that the IETF and the internet industry are simply not ready to change the status of IPv4 while, in reality, the move to IPv6 (only) will be a very long-tailed exercise. > > I’d like to thank all WG member’s contributions over the life of this WG. Some of the discussions have been both exciting and insightful. > > As AD, I would especially like to thank Marc Blanchet and Wes George for co-chairing Sunset4 with professionalism and enthusiasm. Thanks Marc and Wes!! > > The WG will be officially closed later this week, along with the mailing list. > > Thank you all! > > Cheers > Terry (responsible AD for Sunset4) > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue May 15 20:41:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119571241F5 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:41:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJAyUMhiwj_Q for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-2.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A416120724 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:41:15 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:41:15 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: "sunset4@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 Thread-Index: AQHT7AhcBqCZz9NOpUKFtvxnWAONl6QwuKSAgAF0HYA= Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 03:41:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <7942543995546146A9160329D8BE386C@pexch112.icann.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 03:41:21 -0000 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sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98353120724 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyJcL6_bgDTv for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-2.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF6931241F5 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:48:18 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Tue, 15 May 2018 20:48:18 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "sunset4@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 Thread-Index: AQHT7BuJBqCZz9NOpUKFtvxnWAONl6QyLpGA Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 03:48:17 +0000 Message-ID: <4D5E2C4D-2670-470D-9B0C-BEC6394767CE@icann.org> References: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6D422DA11D7B4142B0C8EE80983C176C@pexch112.icann.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 03:48:22 -0000 SGkgSm9yZGksDQoNCkkgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSB5b3VyIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlLCBhbmQgdGhhbmsgeW91 IGZvciBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW5nIGl0LiBJIGZlZWwgdGhhdCB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIG9mIGNvbnRyaWJ1 dGlvbnMgYW5kIHRoZSBhcHBldGl0ZSBmb3Igc3Vuc2V0NCBjb250cmlidXRpb25zIGluIHRoZSBJ RVRGIGlzIGZhciBtb3JlIHRlbGxpbmcgdGhhbiB0aGUgcGVyY2VudGFnZSBvZiBsaXN0IG1lbWJl cnMgd2hvIGNvbnRyaWJ1dGUgb3IgZG9u4oCZdCBjb250cmlidXRlLg0KDQpBcyBwZXIgbXkgZW1h aWwgdG8gTWlrYWVsLCBJIGFtIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8ga2VlcCB0aGUgbGlzdCBhbGl2ZSB1bnRpbCBN YXJjaCBuZXh0IHllYXIsIGFuZCB3ZSBjYW4gcmVldmFsdWF0ZSB0aGVuLg0KDQpUaGFua3MNClRl 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(256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 754E6D1F817; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:06 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2_AksM9yJ1V9; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.1.152] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5083D1F813; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:03 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "Terry Manderson" Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:01 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6110) Message-ID: <3934579C-AD08-445C-A1F7-4231B2AA6AC3@lists.zabbadoz.net> In-Reply-To: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:11 -0000 On 15 May 2018, at 4:51, Terry Manderson wrote: Hi, > I feel the time has come to close Sunset4. As you all must realise > IETF Working Groups are there to do work, and in discussion with the > co-chairs it appears that the list of potential work for Sunset4 has > dried up. It may be that some activity on a similar topic is needed in > the future, however I feel that a future body of work should have a > different charter specifically for that item. It has also been made > quite clear with the discussions surrounding the last Sunset4 WG item > that the IETF and the internet industry are simply not ready to change > the status of IPv4 while, in reality, the move to IPv6 (only) will be > a very long-tailed exercise. > > I’d like to thank all WG member’s contributions over the life of > this WG. Some of the discussions have been both exciting and > insightful. > > As AD, I would especially like to thank Marc Blanchet and Wes George > for co-chairing Sunset4 with professionalism and enthusiasm. Thanks > Marc and Wes!! > > The WG will be officially closed later this week, along with the > mailing list. Thank you! Fianlly! “We are done with IPv4” is a great statement! Can you close it on 6/6 please after 6 years only 6 years late .. :) /bz From nobody Tue May 15 23:58:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6262E129C56 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 23:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pF1UNos9mX4n for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 23:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3586C127AD4 for ; Tue, 15 May 2018 23:58:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1526453902; x=1527058702; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=IGUXZq8o O7UOYsEMeHe85tXIbFe5OiJb8xCsNhToEMA=; b=Fh/KScevkFOz1C2MNjug+PxS wzD9fP4p4A3eTx2/PYwJrDosGlrrVxjIfXO29qzYChYp5C96LA2XAVXTFILtrAJP H2oQyL88KJ5UwV8ny0wr0WGxBsbqGFdNPPMSK1RmzLmUK1HH52E7Pw9tZeOIdS7m gg/SxXIt9aF9sIVw2FM= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:22 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:21 +0200 Received: from [193.0.24.79] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005770963.msg for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:20 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:67c:64:42:87d:ef49:a93:c9e2 X-MDHelo: [193.0.24.79] X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:20 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16749efe3d=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: sunset4@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:03 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "sunset4@ietf.org" Message-ID: <0171EC17-2429-429F-9EF7-218E51216278@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 References: <87EBB068-FAFB-484E-B7FB-F9056DEE45C4@consulintel.es> <4D5E2C4D-2670-470D-9B0C-BEC6394767CE@icann.org> In-Reply-To: <4D5E2C4D-2670-470D-9B0C-BEC6394767CE@icann.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 06:58:29 -0000 Thanks! Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: sunset4 en nombre de Terry Manderson Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 16 de mayo de 2018, 5:48 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "sunset4@ietf.org"= Asunto: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 Hi Jordi, =20 I appreciate your perspective, and thank you for communicating it. I fe= el that the number of contributions and the appetite for sunset4 contributi= ons in the IETF is far more telling than the percentage of list members who= contribute or don=E2=80=99t contribute. =20 As per my email to Mikael, I am willing to keep the list alive until Ma= rch next year, and we can reevaluate then. =20 Thanks Terry =20 On 15/05/2018, 17:09, "sunset4 on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" wrote: =20 I disagree with this decision. =20 Just look into any other WG. Compare the number of people in the ma= iling list and the number of contributions. =20 This is a general issue in IETF, most of the people in the list is = not really contributing at all. =20 I think sunset4 is needed, and it may happen that the pace of the w= ork, is a bit slower than in other WGs, but we should keep the WG alive. =20 It is possible to at least keep the mailing list working? =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: sunset4 en nombre de Terry Manderson= Fecha: martes, 15 de mayo de 2018, 6:51 Para: "sunset4@ietf.org" Asunto: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 =20 Dear WG, =20 I feel the time has come to close Sunset4. As you all must real= ise IETF Working Groups are there to do work, and in discussion with the co= -chairs it appears that the list of potential work for Sunset4 has dried up= . It may be that some activity on a similar topic is needed in the future, = however I feel that a future body of work should have a different charter s= pecifically for that item. It has also been made quite clear with the discu= ssions surrounding the last Sunset4 WG item that the IETF and the internet = industry are simply not ready to change the status of IPv4 while, in realit= y, the move to IPv6 (only) will be a very long-tailed exercise.=20 =20 I=E2=80=99d like to thank all WG member=E2=80=99s contributions= over the life of this WG. Some of the discussions have been both exciting = and insightful.=20 =20 As AD, I would especially like to thank Marc Blanchet and Wes G= eorge for co-chairing Sunset4 with professionalism and enthusiasm. Thanks M= arc and Wes!! =20 The WG will be officially closed later this week, along with th= e mailing list. =20 Thank you all! =20 Cheers Terry (responsible AD for Sunset4) _______________________________________________ sunset4 mailing list sunset4@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company =20 This electronic message contains information which may be privilege= d or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disc= losure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, e= ven if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will= be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be= aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of= this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly= prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to th= e original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ sunset4 mailing list sunset4@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ sunset4 mailing list sunset4@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Wed May 16 05:32:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6184C126CE8 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cOnnM24FmUKr for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C533120713 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 05:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [75.98.19.134]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7E511F906; Wed, 16 May 2018 12:32:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9DB0E1145; Wed, 16 May 2018 13:31:48 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Richardson To: Terry Manderson cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , "sunset4\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> Comments: In-reply-to Terry Manderson message dated "Wed, 16 May 2018 03:41:14 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:31:48 -0400 Message-ID: <30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 12:32:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terry Manderson wrote: > That is a fair request. > I=E2=80=99m not sure the MIF example applies completely as the situat= ions were > different, however I=E2=80=99ll take on board the desire for AD guida= nce when > it comes to work. > I appreciate the desire to have a =E2=80=98home=E2=80=99 for discussi= ons. How about > this. I=E2=80=99ll close the WG, but leave the sunset4 mailing list o= pen at > least until March next year. I=E2=80=99m sure that the volume of disc= ussion up I'm okay with this. My impression is that sunset4 tried hard, but failed to get consensus. That's not a failure to get work done --- not getting consensus usually takes longer than a trivial consensus. My take is that sunset4 was sligthly premature; operators aren't ready do to this. Yes, there are **now** data centers where IPv4 is going away, but those DC also are almost always closed proprietary environments (even if the components are open source, I can't buy a cabinet in that space, and they don't run off-the-shelf OS builds). I think that we wanted to be premature, such that we could get OS vendors to test having no IPv4 *now*, and not discover things are broken ten years later when the equipement can't be replaced. We actually spured a few OS vendors (FreeBSD, Linux, others) to try the test... many discovered "127.0.0.1" hard code in many places. In the end, the problem is that funded OS vendors at the IETF has been "reduced" to Apple and Google, neither of which is in the desktop market it seems... While MS is clearly still here, funded Linux OS/networking peop= le are not at IETF (Wouters excepted!). So sunset4 did as much work as it could without broad OS vendor consensus. I believe that the situation will change once more operators begin to attempt to really turn off IPv4 in a non-3G space. Please keep the list alive. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJa/CS0AAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQ/5sIAJid06AGR4JuF9LSI8wHrCo9 lloIut30QtsZTtzFzCT+xeuKgQMimpjcaCfswrnd8ed7il2NVr1CmVxcobNwwl4W 1maI/56+OMHLFdcMcyzR+O/QmSI4YHGWJ1fyJ6q4w1MKpKwC8ceOJMAVsR7W+tX+ Bazk0b2M81K3FT6pNag5bon7mFzGlp6GzecKHZg6n1KQXxXv6xL7PXcrEiEPhQVb xGDRQLpfUNhnz4gPN7A9BIB6p1no/tR8UUp2+ywivGvjypNVQ7JJX0TtlF5c41h1 fcdU+VPLBsXRA/LXVkjhsk5Lp3NgghgUVoQH7HRN8qiLXsHte9zYJca92o27+Gw= =cqx1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed May 16 06:44:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E579E126C22 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:44:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x3O4ZFaSTWnd for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.sbone.de (bird.sbone.de [46.4.1.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B31961252BA for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sbone.de (mail.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D830825D3A8F; Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1061DD1F817; Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at sbone.de Received: from mail.sbone.de ([IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:587]) by content-filter.sbone.de (content-filter.sbone.de [fde9:577b:c1a9:31::2013:2742]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l02fhWCOfPmt; Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.124.1] (fresh-ayiya.sbone.de [IPv6:fde9:577b:c1a9:f001::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.sbone.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8219D1F7E5; Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:08 +0000 (UTC) From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" To: "Michael Richardson" Cc: sunset4@ietf.org Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:06 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (2.0BETAr6110) Message-ID: <8B8257CD-9C49-423E-80C9-9D078BB36E06@lists.zabbadoz.net> In-Reply-To: <30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 13:44:20 -0000 On 16 May 2018, at 12:31, Michael Richardson wrote: > Terry Manderson wrote: > > That is a fair request. > > > I’m not sure the MIF example applies completely as the > situations were > > different, however I’ll take on board the desire for AD > guidance when > > it comes to work. > > > I appreciate the desire to have a ‘home’ for discussions. > How about > > this. I’ll close the WG, but leave the sunset4 mailing list > open at > > least until March next year. I’m sure that the volume of > discussion up > > I'm okay with this. > My impression is that sunset4 tried hard, but failed to get consensus. > That's not a failure to get work done --- not getting consensus > usually > takes longer than a trivial consensus. > My take is that sunset4 was sligthly premature; I don’t think so. I said on jabber during the end of the first WG meeting: https://www.ietf.org/jabber/logs/sunset4@jabber.ietf.org/2012-07-30.html “[22:12:29] Have you guys concluded the WG yet? I thought the only reason to open it was to close it again immediately and be done with the stuff.” > operators aren't ready do to > this. Yes, there are **now** data centers where IPv4 is going away, > but > those DC also are almost always closed proprietary environments (even > if the > components are open source, I can't buy a cabinet in that space, and > they > don't run off-the-shelf OS builds). Really? Really? Why-o-why? > I think that we wanted to be premature, such that we could get OS > vendors > to test having no IPv4 *now*, http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/6/prweb8529718.htm > and not discover things are broken ten years > later when the equipement can't be replaced. We actually spured a few > OS > vendors (FreeBSD, Linux, others) to try the test... many discovered > "127.0.0.1" hard code in many places. Sunset4 didn’t exist when FreeBSD bits could go IPv6-only, when I had an IPv6-only FreeBSD-based desktop (and still do at home and in a VM on this commercial OS I have to use for other reasons at time). I gave a presentation earlier that year about some of the small nits I found going (mostly) IPv6-only (in 2010/1). And MS at time, if I don’t misremember, could disable IPv4 already as well. > In the end, the problem is that funded OS vendors at the IETF has been > "reduced" to Apple and Google, neither of which is in the desktop > market > it seems... While MS is clearly still here, funded Linux OS/networking > people > are not at IETF (Wouters excepted!). The problem is that IETF is re-active rather than pro-active in a lot of things (of my interest). The problem is that people write too much text before writing code. The problem is that it’s $$$s not steering the world into a supposedly better future anymore. (wrong audience; this should probably go to ietf@ ) > So sunset4 did as much work as it could without broad OS vendor > consensus. > I believe that the situation will change once more operators begin to > attempt to really turn off IPv4 in a non-3G space. You don’t need OS vendor consensus. You need to publish an RFC. Whether they want to be RFC compliant or not is their problem. If they find the money to send 200 people to IETF voting then “nah” they could easily also fix their code and send one developer and say “Yes we can”. It’s an attitude problem, it’s politics, and mis-bean-counting, not a technical problem. “We believe in working code . . .” — really? I am sitting in a country currently where IPv6 is not on the list of .. to my best knowledge. Yet you’ll find this email, until it leaves my admin-domain, not having a single IPv4 address in the Received: lines. I sorted my servers and VPN in 2010 sitting in a hotel room in Sunnyvale hacking kernels and rebooting servers on the other side of the world, right after finding IPv6 problems on Googles campus network (which was a vendor problem, not theirs, yet they hadn’t noticed as their clients were not different enough), .. . I have an IPv6 address on my Laptop. I am a geek; I just did it back then. And even better, it cost me nothing but getting code working, so was a tripple win: (1) working IPv6 IPsec VPN, (2) Open Source gained patches, (3) I got rid of more IPv4. When will you (any reader of this message) get this working, contribute to the public, and how much will it cost you? A few cookies and two drinks? That’s all it took and a few hours of time. And being able to work on a great code base of other giants. Stop re-acting and complaining, look ahead; lead not follow! Live a dream not dream about a life which could be. That said, I am done here. So close the damn thing if you don’t want to publish an RFC anymore and let people find vendor bashing space elsewhere; move on, don’t use an open list as an alibi. /bz back to living a life and stopping to complain. From nobody Wed May 16 07:08:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CDA12D0C3 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:08:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nkFiFZZZquj4 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5F9B127333 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 07:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w4GE8RAY097204; Wed, 16 May 2018 16:08:27 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 88E01204DDE; Wed, 16 May 2018 16:08:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7504D201052; Wed, 16 May 2018 16:08:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w4GE8R0v023513; Wed, 16 May 2018 16:08:27 +0200 To: Michael Richardson , Terry Manderson Cc: "sunset4@ietf.org" , Mikael Abrahamsson References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 16:08:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 14:08:57 -0000 Le 16/05/2018 à 14:31, Michael Richardson a écrit : [...] > Terry Manderson wrote: > > That is a fair request. > > > I’m not sure the MIF example applies completely as the situations were > > different, however I’ll take on board the desire for AD guidance when > > it comes to work. > > > I appreciate the desire to have a ‘home’ for discussions. How about > > this. I’ll close the WG, but leave the sunset4 mailing list open at > > least until March next year. I’m sure that the volume of discussion up > > I'm okay with this. > My impression is that sunset4 tried hard, but failed to get consensus. > That's not a failure to get work done --- not getting consensus usually > takes longer than a trivial consensus. > > My take is that sunset4 was sligthly premature; My take is that sunset is a great name. I would have loved to learn in this group a few things: - is there a process in place that gives back to IANA the unused IPv4 space. How much is this process used? - why new technologies and sites get invented yet IPv6 is not on them (deployed IoT w/ IPv4, self-driving cars w/ IPv4, new big office buildings w/ IPv4, and so on). - in 5G why there is no GTP replacement using QUIC instead of UDP and IPv6 instead of IPv4. And, my last question, my most preferred, which I know is polarizing, soo feel free to ignore: why does not IETF put exclusive content on IPv6? Generally speaking I have never heard of some highly interesting content that is available on IPv6. When that happens immediately somebody puts in on IPv4 too. Or maybe it's just a matter of time, and things are moving slower than one's expectations. > operators aren't ready do to > this. Yes, there are **now** data centers where IPv4 is going away Yes I learned that recently and it was news to me. , but > those DC also are almost always closed proprietary environments (even if the > components are open source, I can't buy a cabinet in that space, and they > don't run off-the-shelf OS builds). It seems though they can be accessed on the Internet, right? I mean such a data center can be accessed freely on IPv6, and for a fee put content there. That content would not be available on IPv4. I think the next step would be to have free upload capability (like drive.google but w/o IPv4). > > I think that we wanted to be premature, such that we could get OS vendors > to test having no IPv4 *now*, and not discover things are broken ten years > later when the equipement can't be replaced. We actually spured a few OS > vendors (FreeBSD, Linux, others) to try the test... many discovered > "127.0.0.1" hard code in many places. > > In the end, the problem is that funded OS vendors at the IETF has been > "reduced" to Apple and Google, neither of which is in the desktop market > it seems... While MS is clearly still here, funded Linux OS/networking people > are not at IETF (Wouters excepted!). > > So sunset4 did as much work as it could without broad OS vendor consensus. > I believe that the situation will change once more operators begin to > attempt to really turn off IPv4 in a non-3G space. > > Please keep the list alive. I agree. And make new inspiring stickers :-) Alex > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 > From nobody Wed May 16 08:01:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietf.org Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C55D1242F7; Wed, 16 May 2018 08:01:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca, wesgeorge@puck.nether.net, sunset4@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.80.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <152648287933.31002.10862175649854716817.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:01:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [sunset4] WG Action: Conclusion of Sunsetting IPv4 (sunset4) X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 15:01:20 -0000 The Sunsetting IPv4 (sunset4) WG in the Internet Area has concluded. The IESG contact person is Terry Manderson. The mailing list will remain active. The Sunset4 Working Group is being closed as the appetite for sunset4 items in the IETF and in the Internet industry are directly related to the progress of ubiquitous IPv6 adoption. It may be in the future that sunset4 like topics and discussion are again needed, so while the Working Group is being closed the mailing list will remain open as a location for that discussion. From nobody Wed May 16 12:22:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0104C126BF3 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 12:22:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKHcivNE6S8L for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 666D4124205 for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail03pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.211]) by atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4GJMQb2004634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 16 May 2018 15:22:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 27113 invoked by uid 0); 16 May 2018 19:22:26 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 174.64.33.182 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.102?) (lee@asgard.org@174.64.33.182) by 0 with ESMTPA; 16 May 2018 19:22:26 -0000 To: sunset4@ietf.org References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 15:22:26 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 19:22:33 -0000 On 05/16/2018 10:08 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > My take is that sunset is a great name. > > I would have loved to learn in this group a few things: > - is there a process in place that gives back to IANA the unused IPv4 >   space.  How much is this process used? I believe each RIR has a separate process for the return of unused space. https://www.apnic.net/manage-ip/manage-historical-resources/returned-ipv4-address-space/ https://www.arin.net/resources/return_revoke.html etc. It's used rarely, but somewhat; when an organization stops paying their bill, the RIR might reclaim the addresses. Most organizations in most regions would rather sell their unneeded IPv4 addresses, since prices are rapidly approaching US$20 per address. > - why new technologies and sites get invented yet IPv6 is not on them >   (deployed IoT w/ IPv4, self-driving cars w/ IPv4, new big office >   buildings w/ IPv4, and so on). 1. Shortsightedness 2. Developers hacking together what they barely know 3. Using an OS designed for embedded systems that's based on a very old Linux without IPv6 support. > - in 5G why there is no GTP replacement using QUIC instead of UDP and >   IPv6 instead of IPv4. 5G is still in development, but I really don't know. > > And, my last question, my most preferred, which I know is polarizing, > soo feel free to ignore: why does not IETF put exclusive content on > IPv6?  Generally speaking I have never heard of some highly > interesting content that is available on IPv6. When that happens > immediately somebody puts in on IPv4 too. Because as an open body, IETF content must be available to everyone, and not everyone has IPv6. Any general content will need to be available over IPv4 until at least 2024, when 90% or more of the world is IPv6-capable. Within the next couple of years I can imagine a phone app designed exclusively for users in the US that was only IPv6-capable, since US mobile is nearly all IPv6. Same for India, maybe, and a few other countries. >> those DC also are almost always closed proprietary environments (even >> if the >> components are open source, I can't buy a cabinet in that space, and >> they >> don't run off-the-shelf OS builds). > > It seems though they can be accessed on the Internet, right?  I mean > such a data center can be accessed freely on IPv6, and for a fee put > content there.  That content would not be available on IPv4. No: examples include Facebook and LinkedIn, which have very functional edge translation from IPv4. > > I think the next step would be to have free upload capability (like > drive.google but w/o IPv4). Well, there was a marvelous presentation by Mythic Beasts at v6ops at IETF101-London. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-only-hosting-00 But if what you want is for someone to sacrifice their revenue or increase their costs For The Good of IPv6, I would not expect that to happen. > >> >> I think that we wanted to be premature, such that we could get OS >> vendors >> to test having no IPv4 *now*, and not discover things are broken ten >> years >> later when the equipement can't be replaced.  We actually spured a >> few OS >> vendors (FreeBSD, Linux, others) to try the test... many discovered >> "127.0.0.1" hard code in many places. >> >> In the end, the problem is that funded OS vendors at the IETF has been >> "reduced" to Apple and Google, neither of which is in the desktop market >> it seems... While MS is clearly still here, funded Linux >> OS/networking people >> are not at IETF (Wouters excepted!). >> >> So sunset4 did as much work as it could without broad OS vendor >> consensus. >> I believe that the situation will change once more operators begin to >> attempt to really turn off IPv4 in a non-3G space. >> >> Please keep the list alive. > > I agree. > > And make new inspiring stickers :-) I have some for Montreal, even though I won't be there. :-) Lee > > Alex > >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sunset4 mailing list >> sunset4@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 >> > > _______________________________________________ > sunset4 mailing list > sunset4@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4 From nobody Wed May 16 14:10:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1D8126CBF for ; 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Wed, 16 May 2018 14:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-admin-alejandro.local ([190.102.81.218]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 79-v6sm1208061ual.3.2018.05.16.14.10.04 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 May 2018 14:10:05 -0700 (PDT) To: sunset4@ietf.org References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> From: Alejandro Acosta Message-ID: <6da7c36c-1841-73dc-81e4-d665efe6caf5@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 17:10:06 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: es-ES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 21:10:10 -0000 Hi, El 16/5/18 a las 3:22 p. m., Lee Howard escribió: > > > On 05/16/2018 10:08 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> >> >> My take is that sunset is a great name. >> >> I would have loved to learn in this group a few things: >> - is there a process in place that gives back to IANA the unused IPv4 >>   space.  How much is this process used? > I believe each RIR has a separate process for the return of unused space. > https://www.apnic.net/manage-ip/manage-historical-resources/returned-ipv4-address-space/ > > https://www.arin.net/resources/return_revoke.html > etc. And there is one more global policy: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/allocation-ipv4-post-exhaustion-2012-05-08-en Alejandro, From leo@gaspard.io Wed May 16 17:05:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 057E212D87F for ; 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a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leo.gaspard.ninja; h=to:references:from:subject:message-id:date:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= grym-20170528; bh=PNv7M17eHoZmCQJE9q5UpsLTI1Y=; b=UtT8oWGX1cOGbe Np6hDrA/SRsexehZLP+2rZ3rOnsCFRpgILzRewZP/TOzqXELvzRf1ZDlsyuo/BRj vAdniAKS5w9xFmDgbe2LpDh0LqrPApAOJykSwm9n9XgOuqvxWXc+IEEKnvaycYOX AwVWSrbzVssT/OOc1xIxD8EAAAuQg= Received: by smtp.gaspard.ninja (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 530e9c53 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128:NO) for ; Thu, 17 May 2018 00:05:20 +0000 (UTC) To: sunset4@ietf.org References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> From: Leo Gaspard Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=ietf@leo.gaspard.ninja; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFXhpEQBEADhOlZssy/qmNV0acTKB/ucRTGhsPt25v0R0HQ0AlpU/bY0rWbTMEYAJhFM 0owTsdJ1ATHvQCbRz9EWNGSL10nTjdX7LDrpCBURUu8LabQ0VpKvyvj6WqmeiOP0bQaIAHMA FHWCaq4FAXCcWl6DvN3h5yYbkN3k0IoCPoOnvSg7qYXwhMOzk2wHc+6T40cCj2PmTqP4lrnl vpl8UZubRlrCDihCTxvzKU5vlywgj6xeCsKUykPH/i62NWW6M0n/ChERkD2IFXYK+1zGVHpq SLyEpsC4ShJ1wswbI6e5Pw0W4XHjEr+voq6ljdrFZiyGbjdDSx+euZdXb4Y/3y3Y9HdXWLBj uN1+yY47ikpVBVoG6yEFarOhYz/SeWObFj8AUUphlUgqbn8W+7hRCDIOXMgA5YuSoeS1hQ+n 0fwpUYgPd1AvNz61P6sNO5Z4vgxmBQATv4z1/MuVMmstsVwPHnCVF9xX9ebcaU/RvJI6EmaW AnhiPLfeFZ+hYvIkk69elEgAhKNcDdKVeQY8K0n+wfb1S8kZxNTne2twILr0rLZ1BzRe7DUG yg0x4s6Jx0ChzwI0Non0csecaCM7bHIhv1+kc20KD9uNlAWmlRrQRpcRVaq1Y230SHS/hS5K saKRsWeQDsfmMxgesz2v5dxc2Dx32GxXPnxoZwk/93EQqhbbeQARAQABzRxMZW8gR2FzcGFy ZCA8bGVvQGdhc3BhcmQuaW8+wsGABBMBCAAqAhsBBQsJCAcCBhUICQoLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheA AhkBBQJaDFmwBQkGIQDsAAoJEGWY8jXyP7KuzEwP/A4rynzccNlRuJgV1giMvRBb+osRW+2H FYXu6gOdRTpkcRD903nstbYbC+LiQB5wwAhoJrWxOChY8fwVJqbrpD3ZbBlAYBZ79NKCSzYA iJsVgpYXMXe+7F0g/eldJccluR82ipHQgUaCnGMMUWTgbmPVH7K0ytobCbHaFIALG0uqe+XH PJ5OGD9giefox5ntuQKDhJRs7783CObwHa/0pk3hPCbYE6DtfhWx5teiW6+GsEf0kAIZ5E+7 cEfCiNj/0AqVph0M+3A68x4nOMV//maM3yWVv77zumeyaPsRlWiqK/9YTYUh/lZtbPezBytP hGtsqEStGdmhAoc2M02gPIXzmBjUTzXSnfWWOJsxsptqAo2LIZrRBCsM1laRBX5EAQrfFeZg eFKIJfRzX+IA/UbfdDKSjEU7Ei+ChQdW3mXOFlJkcsTICurgjwrGIrh6k0ifkerVdTX/0agn kDImfMenj5x7Xf6d+M62PIcX0efVe7BtSji/nJPowEcOlWhzQH3W5bup50ZWnowcyT2CJx8b 1J7aIn1dPnmKmUvl2HiOGF6XtyVivQLrth941Tr3o5u/b/R3hsIoL+azlRWXonPBnBc21KGR 7GVdDjAPcMAqjx0KJfUSKVGkE1WxHJH+xwieFNZlPwnrCx5xOAF5rN6BYWg5adkqC20Y5zyw 5VH/zsDNBFhATnYBDADJd9VSNqYfQ6xnQ+SH3pBuAd721I00JG+ewmtChbTFC1Hw19Ks6c2K 3IXl7f1aVIjJzz0eQ+rG9FhmlswPnMtsWu0phV1EtuOWZPpvQMEikc/tzJ8SGgt4g80LPUSU ew04q5Q21MtoTAYqY4PfWZSp8YkvTjpTLWnmrNVBcqctHfWzElEYpPDD+j1ID7GJbVKFuTXs ZvGktr8Quyb3rIiRESvn08w2usviiHIvIypa4r8jOEnwAAEcSz/2By9zhCdie/r78co7bWHK hAX/oThylKXgTEwmiDRl2/iu0MBT8PmYavu8Cmjg09HWUFXdZNkPOPLD9bymb9mARRS3/OMb Uu5Vg/d6TgLFjao8/KKdlFK1k3asM9mXxz98VtUOxgtOP/DOEuIPaYJLnhV0AyezmuddPLYk 5s1BYk9wBolOf7+iq4MlnUzgKT6gfQiB3NZkhdChULLeaZZifRKrENQ/beDqhbzA63xg2vzJ T+AyL4fKAjS8fiTaplUta59Tc0kAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQgADwUCWEBOdgIbDAUJAeEzgAAKCRBl mPI18j+yrsu+D/9v13WE8OJxlqsVnrOcsLw2Gnd78lqHwGu4FOBiGJfg2Kt9YcSbFvdg6Agm erNgt+W1Xdair4CXyr4CRSCAfqLdZSNLetjudy6rKrrzWPxiCAkW/HQrqI5RGTx8GPFDLLhd 4avAPA1270W3gWUVYPk/R5SdUVIKHA/2Hum/aR0+6zHA/NOmX3P6KAPixDY+raKLdSTy5wWo 8j6YArJIpwol0N98EqXBpT+H4++eY+x/fr4V3w1YnASKRRIETsTVFP6uk7v5EH32cXSSHW+O HIMUMP/4f0KC1sVqVjiZT6uRKTkujYaZbg01s5SM4jR11zXKQEQOIEfisQ8Kb0o8uRQkE//I Adf5u/d9Ed0UTPYiyWU8wPqndpwmvCX7ddfzaiZbSYXQvQ7KFVVqUnbdbcqSqTuEkzk2+Zkz OS2ZQaw/ZVjs6X2PjTrzqTF1S/1kvZ96fLsxJ/xHLjFQJlUykF5LxtNUyBiPvSmqwGnYSMqj 3u8e65kHVhcRgHxKqfg+TXGgHsfdsXw42ofMiAIoi39oWkQC+qRFGrfvSeg2h3jHER/d6ryA 2Lm1Fwe1GFx4lnhBZ+hsyAPNP+37BS2aNixnoFSQR5JHsF1EfcsSAOnZqHrtz0fC6UpnggKI QJgn62UqdB16FG80fI/Ic9BpEJmB6W0kQyty1DUq7YGUfK5mN8LBZQQYAQgADwIbDAUCWgxa GQUJA8JXIwAKCRBlmPI18j+yrnGYEACKZYR8/hjckHSrwfbdltS5NOrBOpNM/pQv1ZXO2jm1 pYZLf8qSwQSy7NRd1A8ebk6LiqKZeMvOxP+zFWpABdjOlgrGGaVtIqWKvqBhw/Db7sXvsPvr gGiKYupKwGe3K/LIrp7aCq1Rx42mp6ZaclDry2JoD/4orx8zlZIDx27LwOdLMHTQD1rVKdrr dKUXFxwNWT1QF94/uxI3Qs5UJPD7/uONFmPPdz/e0OrCVusNvvwVumJdP0WRXgsWcbtP7wZl YzIi/tVzXd+seq/ZCdgQZiw909wlmG4vA4wOwbJE/CTiGaJGRmGc+dNTziGadsndRN2QmXUt z1/6AP2eufnoDyQ2IffEL3iCVhMZ21hjpT3Km8pGddcROSu4sCCiWStAgRk4BfqR74vZMo+8 oybArbnMF5CnC6Aak8sBz17B4jqKIck+1Krge/EgbbBt25hEokdRZJXfvecYEVpj8EGG1KBz JZI+Zgz8Za1hjoAlPbqlYMqR6gn9cq8kmAjWFBU3ajkvcL0SMrmAJdYQ0rE0+Jz8ceBLZqUy rwoipQp5C+ShkUiwXZRv5OQvWkHa6fKLQMKBpPhL7TfPzyljnRRSkXtOcYhV1pdKzK5nPrvs z53hmaWDgBqsbXyfPhckLi+GHPQXFn0ib8CINJiGn3g6imILS2/30RtVcwGiCBMtzw== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 02:05:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 00:20:56 -0000 On 05/16/2018 09:22 PM, Lee Howard wrote:>> - why new technologies and sites get invented yet IPv6 is not on them >>   (deployed IoT w/ IPv4, self-driving cars w/ IPv4, new big office >>   buildings w/ IPv4, and so on). > > 1. Shortsightedness > 2. Developers hacking together what they barely know > 3. Using an OS designed for embedded systems that's based on a very old > Linux without IPv6 support. (getting ready to be lapidated) For my end-user (like, a computer and a rental server at a hosting company) point of view: * Being dual-stack is painful to configure and risky from a security point of view (hello iptables and ip6tables getting out-of-sync, IPv6 privacy extension, etc.) * IPv6-only requires NAT64 to get things to work (just see the issues mentioned by the Mythic Beasts presentation from IETF101 you linked to, even with NAT64 things don't work out of the box) * IPv4-only requires nothing, as NAT when required is already handled by devices out of my line of sight (eg. routers from where I connect, etc) Also, for my server, setting up a NAT64 is completely useless, as the NAT64 would need to run on… the same server, meaning that it needs to be dual-stack anyway. So, as an end-user, the easiest solution for me for now is `ipv6.disable=1`, and I'll switch to `ipv4.disable=1` when it will exist and the rest of the world will be ready for it. Yes, I know this is a chicken-and-egg problem. This is likely something that should be addressed by this WG (and the reason why I subscribed and lurked for a while), but I have absolutely no idea how. (and now I need to flee before being actually lapidated) From nobody Thu May 17 14:03:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sunset4@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06602127735 for ; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gs3BpE4Xu9FP for ; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79D6C12EB62 for ; Thu, 17 May 2018 14:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail02pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.210]) by atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w4HL39N2021794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 17 May 2018 17:03:09 -0400 Received: (qmail 18866 invoked by uid 0); 17 May 2018 21:03:09 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 68.100.68.25 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.135?) (lee@asgard.org@68.100.68.25) by 0 with ESMTPA; 17 May 2018 21:03:09 -0000 To: sunset4@ietf.org References: <756C7AEB-B6B1-4034-BFFF-AC02D2DE452C@icann.org> <24958_1526473951_5AFC24DE_24958_7465_1_30826.1526473908@dooku.sandelman.ca> <6f557ffb-3a3c-f1b4-c481-8d8e04d123a4@gmail.com> <5cc2c59a-5482-eff5-1854-aee15c28d805@asgard.org> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: <06bbe5a4-eb1b-7876-0b20-518949f59c27@asgard.org> Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 17:03:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sunset4] Closing Sunset4 X-BeenThere: sunset4@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: sunset4 working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 21:03:13 -0000 On 05/16/2018 08:05 PM, Leo Gaspard wrote: > On 05/16/2018 09:22 PM, Lee Howard wrote:>> - why new technologies and > sites get invented yet IPv6 is not on them >>>   (deployed IoT w/ IPv4, self-driving cars w/ IPv4, new big office >>>   buildings w/ IPv4, and so on). >> 1. Shortsightedness >> 2. Developers hacking together what they barely know >> 3. Using an OS designed for embedded systems that's based on a very old >> Linux without IPv6 support. > (getting ready to be lapidated) > > For my end-user (like, a computer and a rental server at a hosting > company) point of view: > > * Being dual-stack is painful to configure and risky from a security > point of view (hello iptables and ip6tables getting out-of-sync, IPv6 > privacy extension, etc.) Can you elaborate on the pain? I may be too close to it to feel it anymore. > > * IPv6-only requires NAT64 to get things to work (just see the issues > mentioned by the Mythic Beasts presentation from IETF101 you linked to, > even with NAT64 things don't work out of the box) Well, it probably requires translation somewhere, but: 1. Not if you're on 4G 2. Not if you control the network 3. There are other transition mechanisms than NAT64. > > * IPv4-only requires nothing, as NAT when required is already handled > by devices out of my line of sight (eg. routers from where I connect, etc) As long as device-to-server communication is the only way you would ever want to communicate. And as long as 464xlat or DS-Lite or whatever transition mechanism the intermediate networks use doesn't bother you. > > Also, for my server, setting up a NAT64 is completely useless, as the > NAT64 would need to run on… the same server, meaning that it needs to be > dual-stack anyway. Sure, in that scenario. It's uncommon, I think, to find a server all by itself. NAT64 or SIIT-DC make more sense at the edge of a data center. Happy to run that for you. :) > > So, as an end-user, the easiest solution for me for now is > `ipv6.disable=1`, and I'll switch to `ipv4.disable=1` when it will exist > and the rest of the world will be ready for it. Yes, I know this is a > chicken-and-egg problem. How will you decide it's time to do that? How much notice will you have that you can/should/must do it, and how long will it take? Logistic projection shows 50% of the world using IPv6 to reach Google in early 2020, and 80-90% in 2022-2023. Whatever countries your devices are in may have a different growth curve, and may adopt transition technologies at a different rate. > > This is likely something that should be addressed by this WG (and the > reason why I subscribed and lurked for a while), but I have absolutely > no idea how. Personally, I do not want to force anyone to deploy IPv6 before it makes sense for them. I do, however, want to make sure everyone who needs to make a decision about when to do it is well-informed about it, and the risks and opportunities of deploying or not deploying. Lee