From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Sun Oct 1 20:53:20 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA14000; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 20:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id TAA16052 for tcpsat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA16047 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id TAA05042; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:51:56 -0400 Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com(152.163.225.160) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma004960; Sun, 1 Oct 00 19:51:01 -0400 Received: from tot-wq.proxy.aol.com (tot-wq.proxy.aol.com [205.188.200.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id TAA13924; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1003186d (AC828915.ipt.aol.com [172.130.137.21]) by tot-wq.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e91NoeO05077; Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:50:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sing Lin" To: , Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 19:54:46 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <8r3uvo+pnsa@eGroups.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Apparently-From: ERR_USER_NULL Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun: The ITU-R data rate requirement on the Global Third Generation (G3G) IMT-2000 wireless systems is 144 Kb/s for high speed vehicles with speed up to 500 Km/hr and is 2 Mb/s for indoor or stationary aplications. The commercial deployment of 3G IMT-2000 systems is expected to start in May 2001 in Japan. Are such data rates of IMT-2000 wireless mobile services sufficient for your applications? Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 1:51 AM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Moving Targets Hi, I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving targets are trains. We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard to come by. By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is needed to make this work because: - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to fairly precisely targetted at the sat - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles without cabling etc. Thanks in advance, Shaun From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 2 15:13:45 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA12733; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 15:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id OAA24217 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA24158 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id OAA09061; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:15:35 -0400 Received: from mailgw3a.lmco.com(192.35.35.24) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma008938; Mon, 2 Oct 00 14:15:30 -0400 Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com ([129.197.181.54]) by mailgw3a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10340; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) id <0G1T00301E3GBC@lmco.com>; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 11:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emss01i00.ems.lmc.com ([129.197.181.70]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) with ESMTP id <0G1T00MILDW8PE@lmco.com>; Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emss01i00.ems.lmco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:57:51 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 10:57:58 -0700 From: "Smith JR, Harry E" Subject: RE: Moving Targets To: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au, tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not sure that LEO are a good answer. Have you thought about how many satellites you will need. I would guess around 5 or 6 in the orbit trace. The second problem will be the handover of the data between the satellites. This means either cross links or a single hub that all satellites can see and the routing is on the ground. A third concern would be that utilization. Most of the time they would not be over Australia. A better idea would be a set of towers along the route like 3rd generation mobile system. While the standards only give 2Mbps for fixed station unless you are talking about a bullet train, I think they could be considered as stationary. It will take a little thought. Depending on the services offered, you might be able to use part of a GEO transponder to feed the 3rd Gen Mobile from a single access point. Harry Smith Lockheed Martin Mission and Data Services 408 - 473 6491 > -----Original Message----- > From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au [SMTP:shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au] > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:51 PM > To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov > Subject: Moving Targets > > Hi, > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > targets are trains. > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > to come by. > > By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is > needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to > fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > > Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be > required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO > constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > > Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way > of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles > without cabling etc. > > Thanks in advance, > Shaun From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 2 20:54:27 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA16415; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA06630 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA06622 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id UAA24906; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:06:14 -0400 Received: from bdg.centrin.net.id(202.146.253.3) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma024863; Mon, 2 Oct 00 20:06:01 -0400 Received: from user (PMbdg-219.centrin.net.id [202.146.253.219]) by bdg.centrin.net.id (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id e9305oR04500 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 07:05:52 +0700 Message-ID: <006401c02cce$dc4ea2c0$dbfd92ca@user> Reply-To: "Dani I. Widjanarko" From: "Dani I. Widjanarko" To: Subject: Re: Moving Targets Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 07:03:57 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think that LEO is a good solution, may be you can try to use HAPS (High Altitude Platform System) that now being explored by many countries. -dani- -----Original Message----- From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Date: 03 Oktober 2000 2:50 Subject: Moving Targets >Hi, > >I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving >targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving >targets are trains. > >We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so >uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard >to come by. > >By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is >needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to >fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > >Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be >required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO >constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > >Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way >of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles >without cabling etc. > >Thanks in advance, >Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 2 21:09:20 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA16416; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id UAA06290 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA06280 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id UAA23851; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:00:10 -0400 Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com(205.188.156.49) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma023757; Mon, 2 Oct 00 20:00:00 -0400 Received: from tot-tj.proxy.aol.com (tot-tj.proxy.aol.com [152.163.213.131]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id TAA17309; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 19:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1003186d (AC9BA2CE.ipt.aol.com [172.155.162.206]) by tot-tj.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e92NxUq20589; Mon, 2 Oct 2000 19:59:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sing Lin" To: "Sing Lin" , , Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:03:37 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Apparently-From: SingLin3@aol.com Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun: Two more technologies that may be related to what you are looking for: 1. Teledesic system sponsored by the Telecommunication Pioneer, Craig McCaw, Microsoft's Bill Gates and Boeing company. Teledesic will use more than 200 LEO satellites to provide "Internet in the Sky" services. More information on Teledesic system is available at its web site at: www.teledesic.com 2. High Altitude Platform (HAP) or Stratopheric Telecommunication Services that uses special aircrafts or special ballon at the altitude of about 21 Kilometers above the ground to provide fixed and mobile telecommunications services. Some information are available at the web site: www.skystation.com Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Sing Lin Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 7:55 PM To: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: Moving Targets Shaun: The ITU-R data rate requirement on the Global Third Generation (G3G) IMT-2000 wireless systems is 144 Kb/s for high speed vehicles with speed up to 500 Km/hr and is 2 Mb/s for indoor or stationary aplications. The commercial deployment of 3G IMT-2000 systems is expected to start in May 2001 in Japan. Are such data rates of IMT-2000 wireless mobile services sufficient for your applications? Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 1:51 AM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Moving Targets Hi, I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving targets are trains. We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard to come by. By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is needed to make this work because: - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to fairly precisely targetted at the sat - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles without cabling etc. Thanks in advance, Shaun From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 3 11:43:56 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14576; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 11:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA15460 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA15425 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id KAA28485; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:49:44 -0400 Received: from mailgw3a.lmco.com(192.35.35.24) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma028164; Tue, 3 Oct 00 10:49:28 -0400 Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com ([129.197.181.54]) by mailgw3a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00557 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) id <0G1U00J01ZTRNL@lmco.com> for tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 07:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emss01i00.ems.lmc.com ([129.197.181.70]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) with ESMTP id <0G1U00K1KZTMAC@lmco.com> for tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov; Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emss01i00.ems.lmco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:49:25 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 07:49:38 -0700 From: "Smith JR, Harry E" Subject: Moving Targets To: Sat TCP mail list Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I am not sure that LEO are a good answer. Have you thought about how many satellites you will need. I would guess around 5 or 6 in the orbit trace. The second problem will be the handover of the data between the satellites. ( I think this was one of the things that killed Teledisc) This means either cross links or a single hub that all satellites can see and the routing is on the ground. A third concern would be that utilization. Most of the time they would not be over Australia. A better idea would be a set of towers along the route like 3rd generation mobile system. While the standards only give 2Mbps for fixed station unless you are talking about a bullet train, I think they could be considered as stationary. It will take a little thought. Depending on the services offered, you might be able to use part of a GEO transponder to feed the 3rd Gen Mobile from a single access point. Harry Smith Lockheed Martin Mission and Data Services 408 - 473 6491 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Harry Smith 408 473 6491 From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 3 16:24:58 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA22625; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA07955 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA07866 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id PAA10095; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:31:15 -0400 Received: from c008-h017.c008.sfo.cp.net(209.228.14.206) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma009440; Tue, 3 Oct 00 15:30:28 -0400 Received: (cpmta 1614 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2000 12:30:18 -0700 Received: from adsl-63-197-185-51.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO s2com) (63.197.185.51) by smtp.s2com.net (209.228.14.206) with SMTP; 3 Oct 2000 12:30:18 -0700 X-Sent: 3 Oct 2000 19:30:18 GMT Message-ID: <005e01c02d6f$427111a0$33b9c53f@s2com> From: "Peter Sterling" To: "Smith JR, Harry E" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Moving Targets Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:22:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry The thing that killed Teledesic was a company called Motorola and a grossly overpriced, no-bandwidth project called Iridium. Your cell phone hands-off as you move around with no problem and a LEO system can do the same with no technical problems. The LEO satellite is in view of any one spot for around 10 minutes so the hand-off issue is probably less than for a terrestrial system. The primary advantage of LEO is the lower power requirements to connect, hence smaller antenna possibilities. Also it costs one quarter the price per lb to put a satellite into LEO than GEO. Add the power advantage to the cost advantage and a global broadband LEO system can give 400% increase in available bandwidth per $ over a global GEO system, and there's no 1/4 second delay associated with LEO. Despite what the GEO crowd believes, because of the latency issue, power and LEO cost advantage, its probable that ten years from now LEO systems will make up half of the satcom market. Teledesic currently has a GEO-Type fixed LEO architecture with stupendous capital costs and high technical risks, which indicate that it may not be built in its current form. Peter Sterling ----- Original Message ----- From: Smith JR, Harry E To: Sat TCP mail list Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 7:49 AM Subject: Moving Targets > > I am not sure that LEO are a good answer. Have you thought about how many > satellites you will need. I would guess around 5 or 6 in the orbit trace. > The second problem will be the handover of the data between the satellites. > ( I think this was one of the things that killed Teledisc) > > This means either cross links or a single hub that all satellites can see > and the routing is on the ground. A third concern would be that > utilization. Most of the time they would not be over Australia. > > A better idea would be a set of towers along the route like 3rd generation > mobile system. While the standards only give 2Mbps for fixed station unless > you are talking about a bullet train, I think they could be considered as > stationary. It will take a little thought. > > Depending on the services offered, you might be able to use part of a GEO > transponder to feed the 3rd Gen Mobile from a single access point. > > Harry Smith > Lockheed Martin Mission and Data Services > 408 - 473 6491 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > Harry Smith > 408 473 6491 > > > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 3 17:19:17 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA23493; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id QAA10210 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA10143 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id QAA20202; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:17:49 -0400 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com(129.188.136.101) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma020056; Tue, 3 Oct 00 16:17:44 -0400 Received: [from pobox3.mot.com (pobox3.mot.com [10.64.251.242]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id NAA11024 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:17:42 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from az33exb01.corp.mot.com (az33exb01.corp.mot.com [199.2.84.12]) by pobox3.mot.com (MOT-pobox3 2.0) with ESMTP id NAA22150 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:16:04 -0700 (MST)] Received: by az33exb01.corp.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:17:41 -0700 Message-ID: <876DB976C8DAD211B6C50008C707749402E7E49D@az10exm02.sat.mot.com> From: Schmidt Bill-P26792 To: "'Peter Sterling'" , "Smith JR, Harry E" Cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:17:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk I think your remark about Motorola are not only untrue but out of place in this forum. bill schmidt -----Original Message----- From: Peter Sterling [mailto:Peter@s2com.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 12:22 PM To: Smith JR, Harry E Cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Moving Targets Harry The thing that killed Teledesic was a company called Motorola and a grossly overpriced, no-bandwidth project called Iridium. Your cell phone hands-off as you move around with no problem and a LEO system can do the same with no technical problems. The LEO satellite is in view of any one spot for around 10 minutes so the hand-off issue is probably less than for a terrestrial system. The primary advantage of LEO is the lower power requirements to connect, hence smaller antenna possibilities. Also it costs one quarter the price per lb to put a satellite into LEO than GEO. Add the power advantage to the cost advantage and a global broadband LEO system can give 400% increase in available bandwidth per $ over a global GEO system, and there's no 1/4 second delay associated with LEO. Despite what the GEO crowd believes, because of the latency issue, power and LEO cost advantage, its probable that ten years from now LEO systems will make up half of the satcom market. Teledesic currently has a GEO-Type fixed LEO architecture with stupendous capital costs and high technical risks, which indicate that it may not be built in its current form. Peter Sterling ----- Original Message ----- From: Smith JR, Harry E To: Sat TCP mail list Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 7:49 AM Subject: Moving Targets > > I am not sure that LEO are a good answer. Have you thought about how many > satellites you will need. I would guess around 5 or 6 in the orbit trace. > The second problem will be the handover of the data between the satellites. > ( I think this was one of the things that killed Teledisc) > > This means either cross links or a single hub that all satellites can see > and the routing is on the ground. A third concern would be that > utilization. Most of the time they would not be over Australia. > > A better idea would be a set of towers along the route like 3rd generation > mobile system. While the standards only give 2Mbps for fixed station unless > you are talking about a bullet train, I think they could be considered as > stationary. It will take a little thought. > > Depending on the services offered, you might be able to use part of a GEO > transponder to feed the 3rd Gen Mobile from a single access point. > > Harry Smith > Lockheed Martin Mission and Data Services > 408 - 473 6491 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > Harry Smith > 408 473 6491 > > > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 3 18:47:41 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA24429; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id RAA21713 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21670 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id RAA12960; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:59:29 -0400 Received: from mailgw3a.lmco.com(192.35.35.24) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma012902; Tue, 3 Oct 00 17:59:17 -0400 Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com ([129.197.181.54]) by mailgw3a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26367; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) id <0G1V00J01GRUKP@lmco.com>; Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emss01i00.ems.lmc.com ([129.197.181.70]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) with ESMTP id <0G1V0081SIFPTF@lmco.com>; Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emss01i00.ems.lmco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:31:25 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 14:31:34 -0700 From: "Smith JR, Harry E" Subject: RE: Moving Targets To: Peter Sterling , "Smith JR, Harry E" Cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Agree that the cellphone hands off with no problem using because of a coordination between the BST and MST via terrestial lines. I am not sure that this is possible for LEO unless you have satellite cross links. The power advantage may be offset by the complexity of the terminal antenna system. In a cell phone terminal the antenna is omni, for a leo a directional is needed. This means either a fast tracking antenna and aquistion or two tracking antennae. As for the cost, the advantage is eaten by the additional satellites needed to allow continuos coverage. I think that is a wash. Harry > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Sterling [SMTP:Peter@s2com.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 12:22 PM > To: Smith JR, Harry E > Cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov > Subject: Re: Moving Targets > > Harry > > The thing that killed Teledesic was a company called Motorola and a > grossly > overpriced, no-bandwidth project called Iridium. > > Your cell phone hands-off as you move around with no problem and a LEO > system can do the same with no technical problems. > > The LEO satellite is in view of any one spot for around 10 minutes so the > hand-off issue is probably less than for a terrestrial system. The > primary > advantage of LEO is the lower power requirements to connect, hence smaller > antenna possibilities. Also it costs one quarter the price per lb to put a > satellite into LEO than GEO. Add the power advantage to the cost advantage > and a global broadband LEO system can give 400% increase in available > bandwidth per $ over a global GEO system, and there's no 1/4 second delay > associated with LEO. > > Despite what the GEO crowd believes, because of the latency issue, power > and > LEO cost advantage, its probable that ten years from now LEO systems will > make up half of the satcom market. > > Teledesic currently has a GEO-Type fixed LEO architecture with stupendous > capital costs and high technical risks, which indicate that it may not be > built in its current form. > > Peter Sterling > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Smith JR, Harry E > To: Sat TCP mail list > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 7:49 AM > Subject: Moving Targets > > > > > > I am not sure that LEO are a good answer. Have you thought about how > many > > satellites you will need. I would guess around 5 or 6 in the orbit > trace. > > The second problem will be the handover of the data between the > satellites. > > ( I think this was one of the things that killed Teledisc) > > > > This means either cross links or a single hub that all satellites can > see > > and the routing is on the ground. A third concern would be that > > utilization. Most of the time they would not be over Australia. > > > > A better idea would be a set of towers along the route like 3rd > generation > > mobile system. While the standards only give 2Mbps for fixed station > unless > > you are talking about a bullet train, I think they could be considered > as > > stationary. It will take a little thought. > > > > Depending on the services offered, you might be able to use part of a > GEO > > transponder to feed the 3rd Gen Mobile from a single access point. > > > > Harry Smith > > Lockheed Martin Mission and Data Services > > 408 - 473 6491 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > - > > Harry Smith > > 408 473 6491 > > > > > > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 02:37:05 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA12747; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 02:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id BAA27173 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA27160 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:41:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id BAA24617; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 01:41:52 -0400 Received: from b121.bitz.uni-bremen.de(134.102.49.121) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma024490; Wed, 4 Oct 00 01:40:54 -0400 Received: from duene (andreastg.mediamobil.de [192.168.100.9]) by satellite.mediamobil.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA00688; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:40:38 +0200 From: "Andreas Timm-Giel" To: , Subject: AW: Moving Targets Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:37:58 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c02dc5$40e17ae0$0964a8c0@mediamobil.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02DD6.046A4AE0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <8r3uvo+pnsa@eGroups.com> Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02DD6.046A4AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by satellite.mediamobil.de id HAA00688 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Shaun, we are working in the satellite area of highly portable (Inmarsat like) satcom and are offering services similar to your requirements using L-ban= d GEO satellites in Europe. If you are looking for satellites for your application you will always (m= id term 5-10 yrs future) need a line-of-sight to the satellite, independent = of the orbit. GEO systems are available serving your bandwidth requirements. However, i= f you think of Ku/Ka-band systems, the antenna pointing is critical (in particular with this speed). If you are looking for GEO L-, S-band system= s you could most get an autotracking antenna, which is fast enough for your trains. However it is rather bulky (would assume around 1 m in diameter), very much depending on the satellite you use. Additionally you would alwa= ys need a line-of-sight (difficult with tunnels). Second problem for L- and S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) LEO systems offering 1 Mbit/s are not on the market tody, but will evolve= , however I do not expect them before 2003 or later ?) and they will also require a direct line-of-sight to the satellite (with the advantage, that there is usually more than one in sight...), at least for high bandwidths. The antennas should be smaller, the transmission delay is shorter and spectrum costs will be lower than with L-band GEO systems. But you need s= ome hand-over mechanism and there is a significant doppler shift due to the movement of the satellites... Another alternative are as mentioned by others already mobile radio syste= ms. In particular 3rd Generation UMTS/IMT-2000/3GPP (cf www.3gpp.org )could b= e interesting in this context. Another idea which strikes me: it should be possible to use a DAB (Digita= l Audio Broadcast, specified up to around 2 Mbit/s and high speed vehicles [cars, trains]) like system for the forward (to the train) link and a cellular phone link in return (e.g. GSM-GPRS or UMTS/IMT-2000). All in all, it very much depends on your further requirements (costs, tim= e frame, space on the trains, possibilities to set up antennas along the tracks, regulations etc.) If you have further questions you are welcome to contact me directly. Kind regards Andreas --- ------------------------------------ Dr.-Ing. Andreas Timm-Giel MediaMobil Communication GmbH Fahrenheitstr. 1 D - 28359 BREMEN Germany Phone: +49 (0) 421 20 10 088 Fax: +49 (0) 421 22 39 418 email: timm-giel@mediamobil.de ------------------------------------ > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]Im > Auftrag von shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au > Gesendet am: Samstag, 30. September 2000 07:51 > An: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov > Betreff: Moving Targets > > Hi, > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > targets are trains. > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > to come by. > > By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is > needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to > fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > > Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be > required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO > constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > > Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way > of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles > without cabling etc. > > Thanks in advance, > Shaun > ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02DD6.046A4AE0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Andreas Timm-Giel.vcf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Andreas Timm-Giel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Timm-Giel;Andreas FN:Andreas Timm-Giel ORG:MediaMobil Communication GmbH TEL;WORK;VOICE:+49 (0) 421 20 10 088 TEL;WORK;FAX:+49 (0) 421 22 39 418 ADR;WORK:;;Fahrenheitstr. 1;Bremen;;28359;Germany LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:Fahrenheitstr. 1=3D0D=3D0ABremen = 28359=3D0D=3D0AGermany EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:timm-giel@mediamobil.de REV:20000207T160924Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C02DD6.046A4AE0-- From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 11:26:57 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA22923; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA13739 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA13689 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id KAA18867; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:39:23 -0400 Received: from mail5.uunet.ca(142.77.1.28) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma018209; Wed, 4 Oct 00 10:38:38 -0400 Received: from xiphos.ca ([216.95.199.148]) by mail5.uunet.ca with ESMTP id <249900-29414>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:35:39 -0400 Message-ID: <39DB3DFF.A71BE2C4@xiphos.ca> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:26:07 -0400 From: Charlie Younghusband X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Timm-Giel , "tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov" Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets References: <000801c02dc5$40e17ae0$0964a8c0@mediamobil.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ 1Mbps. Plus hw & ISP costs for down under. Yikes. Your research project could end pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution. Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities are anyway. Charlie Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, your upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs assuming normal windows TCP/IP. Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more appropriate. Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP. Andreas Timm-Giel wrote: Second problem for L- and > S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a > reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > > targets are trains. > > > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > > to come by. > >-- Charlie Younghusband Network Systems Engineering Xiphos Technologies http://www.xiphos.ca/ 514-848-9640 (f) 514-848-9644 From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 12:14:56 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA24762; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA22180 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA22141 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id LAA01938; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:24:58 -0400 Received: from mailhost.newtec.be(194.7.184.50) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma001700; Wed, 4 Oct 00 11:24:53 -0400 Received: from Newtec_gw-Message_Server by NEWTEC5.newtec.be with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 04 Oct 2000 17:22:19 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.3.1 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 17:21:41 +0100 From: "Daniel Delaruelle" To: Subject: satellite delay simulator Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov id LAA22158 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, My company NEWTEC is looking for a true delay simulator ( at IF 70MHz or 140MHz or L-band ) that can generate signal delays of several hundred milliseconds comparable to 1 or 2 satellite hops. Alternatively we are looking for a delay simulator capable of generating the same delays on a DVB-ASI type of signal. Does anyone know if such equipment is commercially available ? Daniel Delaruelle NEWTEC NV Laarstraat 5, B-9100 Sint-Niklaas, Belgium tel ++32 3 780 65 00 (switch-board) tel ++32 3 780 65 52 (direct) fax ++32 3 780 65 00 e-mail dd@newtec.be From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 12:57:30 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA25936; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA00687 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA00651 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id MAA14824; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:07:14 -0400 Received: from sioux.hosts.netdirect.net.uk(195.7.224.43) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma014247; Wed, 4 Oct 00 12:06:37 -0400 Received: from john (gw.mobileinternet.net [195.7.242.21] (may be forged)) by sioux.hosts.netdirect.net.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA04523; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:06:21 +0100 Message-ID: <009701c02e1c$abe94f50$fcfea8c0@mobileinternet.com> Reply-To: "John Bourke" From: "John Bourke" To: "Charlie Younghusband" , "Andreas Timm-Giel" , References: <000801c02dc5$40e17ae0$0964a8c0@mediamobil.de> <39DB3DFF.A71BE2C4@xiphos.ca> Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:03:30 +0100 Organization: Mobile Internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Internet over DVB forward path with a stabilised antenna. Inmarsat return path via Inmarsat Packet Data with a stabilised antenna. Pay per Mbyte on this. That's 6-8 Mbits shared forward ( across all trains ) and 64Kbits return per train. john ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Younghusband" To: "Andreas Timm-Giel" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:26 PM Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets > At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ 1Mbps. > Plus hw & ISP costs for down under. Yikes. Your research project could end > pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution. > > Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train > tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! > > Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. > Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over > an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities > are anyway. > > Charlie > > Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good > matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, your > upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs assuming > normal windows TCP/IP. Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more > appropriate. Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP. > > > > Andreas Timm-Giel wrote: > Second problem for L- and > > > S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a > > reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > > > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > > > targets are trains. > > > > > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > > > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > > > to come by. > > >-- > > Charlie Younghusband > Network Systems Engineering > Xiphos Technologies http://www.xiphos.ca/ > 514-848-9640 (f) 514-848-9644 > > > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 13:56:52 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA27361; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id NAA11027 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA10978 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id NAA20421; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:07:53 -0400 Received: from mx2.idealab.com(208.50.19.10) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma019857; Wed, 4 Oct 00 13:07:11 -0400 Received: (qmail 26983 invoked by alias); 4 Oct 2000 17:07:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 26917 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 17:07:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asterix) (172.28.2.161) by corleone.idealab.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 17:07:02 -0000 From: "Michael C. Maguire" To: "Andreas Timm-Giel" , , Subject: RE: Moving Targets - Mobile Tracking Antennas Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:07:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000801c02dc5$40e17ae0$0964a8c0@mediamobil.de> Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Regarding mobile autotracking antennas for data services, see: http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500RV.html or http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500Marine.html I believe Datron has also experimented with mobile Internet services using these antennas. Regards, mcm Michael C. Maguire email: maguire_m_c@yahoo.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Andreas Timm-Giel Sent: Tuesday, 03 October, 2000 22:38 To: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: AW: Moving Targets GEO systems are available serving your bandwidth requirements. However, if you think of Ku/Ka-band systems, the antenna pointing is critical (in particular with this speed). If you are looking for GEO L-, S-band systems you could most get an autotracking antenna, which is fast enough for your trains. However it is rather bulky (would assume around 1 m in diameter), very much depending on the satellite you use. Additionally you would always need a line-of-sight (difficult with tunnels). Second problem for L- and S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) Andreas --- ------------------------------------ Dr.-Ing. Andreas Timm-Giel MediaMobil Communication GmbH Fahrenheitstr. 1 D - 28359 BREMEN Germany Phone: +49 (0) 421 20 10 088 Fax: +49 (0) 421 22 39 418 email: timm-giel@mediamobil.de ------------------------------------ From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 16:18:34 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA00860; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA05865 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA05831 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id PAA10505; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:11 -0400 Received: from us-la-gate.interpacket.net(209.198.223.250) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma010125; Wed, 4 Oct 00 15:26:54 -0400 Received: (qmail 6048 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 19:26:52 -0000 Received: from mrbig.la.interpacket.net (192.168.6.5) by bond.la.interpacket.net with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 19:26:52 -0000 Received: from [192.168.4.183] (airhost-dyn-192-168-4-184.la.interpacket.net [192.168.4.184]) by mrbig.la.interpacket.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id T4HXBFQK; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:25:48 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jonm@popmail.la.interpacket.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:26:50 -0700 To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov From: Jon Mansey Subject: RE: Moving Targets - Mobile Tracking Antennas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Hi, Its not a sat solution, I know, but what about sending the data through the tracks akin to how they modulate data onto power lines. I hear up to a Mbit is possible. No problems with tunnels then eh? jm >All, > >Regarding mobile autotracking antennas for data services, see: > >http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500RV.html or >http://www.datrondbs.com/p4500Marine.html > >I believe Datron has also experimented with mobile Internet services using >these antennas. > >Regards, mcm > >Michael C. Maguire >email: maguire_m_c@yahoo.com > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On >Behalf Of Andreas Timm-Giel >Sent: Tuesday, 03 October, 2000 22:38 >To: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov >Subject: AW: Moving Targets > >GEO systems are available serving your bandwidth requirements. However, if >you think of Ku/Ka-band systems, the antenna pointing is critical (in >particular with this speed). If you are looking for GEO L-, S-band systems >you could most get an autotracking antenna, which is fast enough for your >trains. However it is rather bulky (would assume around 1 m in diameter), >very much depending on the satellite you use. Additionally you would always >need a line-of-sight (difficult with tunnels). Second problem for L- and >S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a >reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > >Andreas > >--- >------------------------------------ >Dr.-Ing. Andreas Timm-Giel >MediaMobil Communication GmbH >Fahrenheitstr. 1 >D - 28359 BREMEN >Germany > >Phone: +49 (0) 421 20 10 088 >Fax: +49 (0) 421 22 39 418 > >email: timm-giel@mediamobil.de >------------------------------------ > -- jon@interpacket.net Chief Science Officer ------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Global Leader in Internet Via Satellite" InterPacket Networks, Inc. http://www.interpacket.net 1901 Main St. tel (310) 382 3300 Santa Monica, California 90405 fax (310) 382 3310 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 16:27:28 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA01084; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA08236 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA08195 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id PAA25626; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:42:39 -0400 Received: from c008-h019.c008.sfo.cp.net(209.228.14.208) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma025152; Wed, 4 Oct 00 15:42:02 -0400 Received: (cpmta 12007 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 12:42:00 -0700 Received: from adsl-63-197-185-51.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO s2com) (63.197.185.51) by smtp.s2com.net (209.228.14.208) with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 12:42:00 -0700 X-Sent: 4 Oct 2000 19:42:00 GMT Message-ID: <003001c02e3a$270cb920$33b9c53f@s2com> From: "Peter Sterling" To: "Charlie Younghusband" References: <000801c02dc5$40e17ae0$0964a8c0@mediamobil.de> <39DB3DFF.A71BE2C4@xiphos.ca> Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:34:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are hardly any tunnels on the route to Perth or Darwin so the tunnels are not really an issue here. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: Charlie Younghusband To: Andreas Timm-Giel ; Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 7:26 AM Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets > At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ 1Mbps. > Plus hw & ISP costs for down under. Yikes. Your research project could end > pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution. > > Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train > tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! > > Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. > Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over > an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities > are anyway. > > Charlie > > Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good > matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, your > upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs assuming > normal windows TCP/IP. Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more > appropriate. Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP. > > > > Andreas Timm-Giel wrote: > Second problem for L- and > > > S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a > > reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > > > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > > > targets are trains. > > > > > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > > > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > > > to come by. > > >-- > > Charlie Younghusband > Network Systems Engineering > Xiphos Technologies http://www.xiphos.ca/ > 514-848-9640 (f) 514-848-9644 > > > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 17:34:34 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA02283; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id QAA18435 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA18419 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id QAA25655; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:52:04 -0400 Received: from aop-exch-nt2.andrew.com(207.51.188.38) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma025170; Wed, 4 Oct 00 16:51:31 -0400 Received: by aop_exch_nt2.andrew.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id <412GLBBC>; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:51:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Brooker, Ralph" To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: AW: Moving Targets Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:51:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk It's not exactly using the tracks, but Andrew has provided many communications systems for rail networks using Radiax (R) radiating coaxial cable laid alongside the rails. The cable has slots tuned for specific bands such as VHF, cellular, GSM, or PCS, and has a tapered radiation loss characteristic to give even signal strength along the line. Every so often you put a repeater or network access point. Most of these systems have been in underground metro tunnels, such as in Hong Kong where commuters talk on their GSM phones through this network. However, it does get rather expensive for a network hundreds of miles long, and the unusual propagation and fade charateristics can limit the bandwidth. Ralph -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Younghusband [mailto:cwy@xiphos.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:26 AM To: Andreas Timm-Giel; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ 1Mbps. Plus hw & ISP costs for down under. Yikes. Your research project could end pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution. Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities are anyway. Charlie Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, your upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs assuming normal windows TCP/IP. Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more appropriate. Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP. Andreas Timm-Giel wrote: Second problem for L- and > S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a > reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > > targets are trains. > > > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > > to come by. > >-- Charlie Younghusband Network Systems Engineering Xiphos Technologies http://www.xiphos.ca/ 514-848-9640 (f) 514-848-9644 From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 19:01:02 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA03620; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id SAA27281 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA27249 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id SAA08304; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:16:10 -0400 Received: from us-la-gate.interpacket.net(209.198.223.250) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma008094; Wed, 4 Oct 00 18:15:19 -0400 Received: (qmail 12788 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2000 22:15:17 -0000 Received: from mrbig.la.interpacket.net (192.168.6.5) by bond.la.interpacket.net with SMTP; 4 Oct 2000 22:15:17 -0000 Received: from [192.168.4.183] (airhost-dyn-192-168-4-184.la.interpacket.net [192.168.4.184]) by mrbig.la.interpacket.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id T4HXBGXX; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:14:14 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jonm@popmail.la.interpacket.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:15:16 -0700 To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov From: Jon Mansey Subject: Re: satellite delay simulator Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Adding the delay at the IP layer instead of RF is easy using for example dummynet on a FreeBSD bridge. jm >Dear all, > >My company NEWTEC is looking for a true delay simulator >( at IF 70MHz or 140MHz or L-band ) that can generate signal >delays of several hundred milliseconds comparable to 1 or 2 >satellite hops. > >Alternatively we are looking for a delay simulator capable >of generating the same delays on a DVB-ASI type of signal. > >Does anyone know if such equipment is commercially available ? > > > >Daniel Delaruelle >NEWTEC NV >Laarstraat 5, B-9100 Sint-Niklaas, Belgium >tel ++32 3 780 65 00 (switch-board) >tel ++32 3 780 65 52 (direct) >fax ++32 3 780 65 00 >e-mail dd@newtec.be -- jon@interpacket.net Chief Science Officer ------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Global Leader in Internet Via Satellite" InterPacket Networks, Inc. http://www.interpacket.net 1901 Main St. tel (310) 382 3300 Santa Monica, California 90405 fax (310) 382 3310 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 4 20:17:39 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA05155; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 20:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id TAA03386 for tcpsat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA03370 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id TAA02744; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:37:54 -0400 Received: from smtp1.san.rr.com(24.25.195.37) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma002567; Wed, 4 Oct 00 19:37:13 -0400 Received: from bandit.tosheff.com ([24.25.210.27]) by smtp1.san.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-0U10L2S100V35) with ESMTP id com; Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:37:25 -0700 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001004164328.00a5b0a0@pop-server.san.rr.com> X-Sender: alex@pop-server.san.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:44:34 -0700 To: "Brooker, Ralph" , tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov From: Alex Tosheff Subject: RE: AW: Moving Targets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Wouldn't a "leaky wire" solution magnify the multipath probs? Especially for a moving target? At 03:51 PM 10/4/00 -0500, Brooker, Ralph wrote: >It's not exactly using the tracks, but Andrew has provided many >communications systems for rail networks using Radiax (R) radiating coaxial >cable laid alongside the rails. The cable has slots tuned for specific >bands such as VHF, cellular, GSM, or PCS, and has a tapered radiation loss >characteristic to give even signal strength along the line. Every so often >you put a repeater or network access point. Most of these systems have been >in underground metro tunnels, such as in Hong Kong where commuters talk on >their GSM phones through this network. However, it does get rather >expensive for a network hundreds of miles long, and the unusual propagation >and fade charateristics can limit the bandwidth. > >Ralph > >-----Original Message----- >From: Charlie Younghusband [mailto:cwy@xiphos.ca] >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 10:26 AM >To: Andreas Timm-Giel; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov >Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets > > >At $7 US/minute @ 64kbps, that's $420 /hr @ 64kbps or 6720 US $ / hr @ >1Mbps. >Plus hw & ISP costs for down under. Yikes. Your research project could end >pretty quickly with an Inmarsat type solution. > >Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the >train >tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! > >Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. >Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all >over >an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie >cities >are anyway. > >Charlie > >Also note that a 1Mbps downstream and a 56 upstream probably isn't a good >matchup (an offhand guess); even if you're doing 100% downloading of files, >your >upstream bandwidth could quickly become the bottleneck just with ACKs >assuming >normal windows TCP/IP. Something closer to a 10 to 1 ratio might be more >appropriate. Check some of the litterature regarding assymetry and TCP/IP. > > > >Andreas Timm-Giel wrote: >Second problem for L- and > > > S-band systems will be the prices for capacity on satellites (just as a > > reference: Inmarsat takes around US$ 7 / min for a 64 kbit/s link) > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > > > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > > > targets are trains. > > > > > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > > > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > > > to come by. > > >-- > >Charlie Younghusband >Network Systems Engineering >Xiphos Technologies http://www.xiphos.ca/ >514-848-9640 (f) 514-848-9644 From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 5 03:05:16 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA23342; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 03:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id CAA23219 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA23205 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id CAA00537; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:16:21 -0400 Message-Id: <200010050616.CAA00537@seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov> Received: from unknown(166.111.64.45) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma000383; Thu, 5 Oct 00 02:16:02 -0400 Received: (qmail 9568 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2000 06:11:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nexus) (192.168.7.177) by 166.111.64.45 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2000 06:11:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:13:22 +0800 From: Fei Long To: "tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov" Subject: About Satellite Resource. X-mailer: FoxMail 3.0 beta 1 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all I'm doing some research on TCP over satellite, and I want to know some infomation,such as how many transponders(or how much bandwidth) are used for data service or internet service. I tried to search from the website of intelsat,but found nothing. Could you tell me something or where can i find it? Thanks in advance. Fei Long E&E department,Tsinghua University Peking,PRC lf263@263.net From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 5 07:03:47 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA25178; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id GAA22422 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA22409 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id GAA24146; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:22:45 -0400 Received: from ds-img-7.compuserve.com(149.174.206.153) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma023940; Thu, 5 Oct 00 06:22:17 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spdmbaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.9) id GAA28366; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 06:21:55 -0400 From: nghia_pham Subject: satellite delay simulator To: "Daniel Delaruelle" Cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <200010050622_MC2-B5BF-157E@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov id GAA22412 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Daniel, I found the following archived message on this discussion list. Hope it's what you are looking for. Nghia PHAM EUTELSAT -------------Archived Message----------------- From: Michael Orr, INTERNET:orr@flash-networks.com To: Cheryl DeMatteis, INTERNET:cdematt@rushe.aero.org "'Bruce Kwan'", INTERNET:Bruce.H.Kwan@jpl.nasa.gov CC: [unknown], INTERNET:tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Date: 30/09/99 12:19 RE: RE: Looking for a Satellite Link Emulator We are using the ADTECH SX/12 now as link simulators (up to 8Mbps). A copule of points: 1. They simulate delays and BER, distributed uniformly or programmable into bursts. If you need simulation of packet loss, you need to implement this yourself. 2. The ADTECH uses an internal buffer to do the delays. We have found that if you set it to a high delay, the BW it can handle is limited and vice-versa, or you simply lose data silently. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Kwan [SMTP:Bruce.H.Kwan@jpl.nasa.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 12:59 PM > To: Cheryl DeMatteis > Cc: tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov > Subject: Re: Looking for a Satellite Link Emulator > > Hi Cheryl- > > I have used the slower Adtech Channel Simulator (SX-12) > to analyze the effects of mobile satellite links on the > performance of TCP/IP a few years ago. Using fading files collected from > propagation data available from ACTS and TDRS satellites, > we drove the simulator to simulate the channel as we did > data transfers using netperf. > > The Adtech box worked quite well. > > Bruce > > > Cheryl DeMatteis wrote: > > > > I need to use a Satellite Link Emulator that can sustaine OC3 data > > rates for a development lab. If anyone has any experience with such a > > product could you share your experiences with me. > > > > Thanks, > > Cheryl > > > > -- > > Cheryl K. DeMatteis The Aerospace Corporation, > M1/102 > > cdematt@aero.org Computer Science and Technology > > (310)336-1189 2350 E. El Segundo Blvd. > > (310)336-4402 (fax) El Segundo, CA 90245-4691 > > -- > Bruce H. Kwan Office: (818) 354-9250 > Jet Propulsion Laboratory FAX: (818) 393-4643 > 4800 Oak Grove Dr. MS 161-260 Email: Bruce.H.Kwan@jpl.nas.gov > Pasadena, CA 91109 From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 5 08:01:25 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA26911; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id HAA26221 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26201 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id HAA18657; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:18:32 -0400 Received: from store.metrodata.co.uk(194.154.181.2) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma018592; Thu, 5 Oct 00 07:18:28 -0400 Received: from poppadom (store.metrodata.co.uk [194.154.181.2]) by store.metrodata.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id T25DPJNL; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:29:43 +0100 Message-ID: <009a01c02ebe$9a412b40$8dfe72c1@metrodata.co.uk> Reply-To: "Mike Holdsworth" From: "Mike Holdsworth" To: "Daniel Delaruelle" , References: Subject: Re: satellite delay simulator Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:22:52 +0100 Organization: Metrodata Ltd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Daniel, We might be able to help on the ASI Signal. We are developing an ASI Module for our AP3000. This is a 3 Port ATM Switch. One of the applications we have had is for helping with Doppler Shift by Cell Buffering across the ATM Backplane of the switch. We would do this by taking a HSSI output from the Satellite Modem, into a DTE HSSI Module. Then the data would be converted to ATM cells across the backplane and reconverted and ouput through another Gapped Clock HSSI Module. This would then connect to a HSSI Interace on a Router. Potentially once the ASI Module is out of development we could offer you a similar scenario. My Questions would be: 1. Do you require a fixed delay 2. What will be the likely traffic speed 3. What is your timescale I hope we can help. Regards Mike mike.holdsworth@metrodata.co.uk Application Engineer Satellite, Microwave, DSL, Leased Line Solutions www.metrodata.co.uk Tel: +44 (0) 1784 744815 Fax: +44 (0) 1784 744730 Mobile: +44 (0)7887 983 374 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Delaruelle" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 05:21 Subject: satellite delay simulator Dear all, My company NEWTEC is looking for a true delay simulator ( at IF 70MHz or 140MHz or L-band ) that can generate signal delays of several hundred milliseconds comparable to 1 or 2 satellite hops. Alternatively we are looking for a delay simulator capable of generating the same delays on a DVB-ASI type of signal. Does anyone know if such equipment is commercially available ? Daniel Delaruelle NEWTEC NV Laarstraat 5, B-9100 Sint-Niklaas, Belgium tel ++32 3 780 65 00 (switch-board) tel ++32 3 780 65 52 (direct) fax ++32 3 780 65 00 e-mail dd@newtec.be From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 5 08:08:30 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA27031; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id HAA26931 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA26914 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id HAA23724; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:27:38 -0400 Received: from isnt.uscga.edu(138.29.1.252) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma023522; Thu, 5 Oct 00 07:27:28 -0400 Received: by isnt.uscga.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <4HWVXLYW>; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:26:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Johnson, Gregory LCDR" To: Jon Mansey , tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: satellite delay simulator Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:26:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Telecom Analysis Systems used to sell a satellite channel simulator that worked at the RF level. According to their web site they have now sold this line to dBm (http://www.taskit.com/customer_sle_product_support.htm). If you want to add the delay at the data level, Adtech makes a line of delay simulators that have an RS232 or V.35 interface (http://www.adtech-inc.com/) -Greg LCDR Gregory W. Johnson Ass't Prof. Electrical Engineering USCG Academy New London CT 860-444-8683 -----Original Message----- From: Jon Mansey [mailto:jon@interpacket.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 6:15 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: satellite delay simulator Adding the delay at the IP layer instead of RF is easy using for example dummynet on a FreeBSD bridge. jm >Dear all, > >My company NEWTEC is looking for a true delay simulator >( at IF 70MHz or 140MHz or L-band ) that can generate signal >delays of several hundred milliseconds comparable to 1 or 2 >satellite hops. > >Alternatively we are looking for a delay simulator capable >of generating the same delays on a DVB-ASI type of signal. > >Does anyone know if such equipment is commercially available ? > > > >Daniel Delaruelle >NEWTEC NV >Laarstraat 5, B-9100 Sint-Niklaas, Belgium >tel ++32 3 780 65 00 (switch-board) >tel ++32 3 780 65 52 (direct) >fax ++32 3 780 65 00 >e-mail dd@newtec.be -- jon@interpacket.net Chief Science Officer ------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Global Leader in Internet Via Satellite" InterPacket Networks, Inc. http://www.interpacket.net 1901 Main St. tel (310) 382 3300 Santa Monica, California 90405 fax (310) 382 3310 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 5 08:15:49 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA27155; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id HAA27652 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA27605 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id HAA27869; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:35:45 -0400 Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net(206.13.28.240) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma027445; Thu, 5 Oct 00 07:35:14 -0400 Received: from catherine ([63.201.133.146]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0G1Y00KGQG2B8W@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov; Thu, 5 Oct 2000 04:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 04:33:27 -0700 From: "John C. Westmoreland" Subject: Re: satellite delay simulator To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-id: <005401c02ec0$143cc7a0$2625a8c0@westware.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 References: X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as the simulator you can take a look at the ns-2 simulator: http://www.isi.edu/nsnam/ns/ Good Luck, John W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Mansey" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 3:15 PM Subject: Re: satellite delay simulator > Adding the delay at the IP layer instead of RF is easy using for > example dummynet on a FreeBSD bridge. > > jm > > > > >Dear all, > > > >My company NEWTEC is looking for a true delay simulator > >( at IF 70MHz or 140MHz or L-band ) that can generate signal > >delays of several hundred milliseconds comparable to 1 or 2 > >satellite hops. > > > >Alternatively we are looking for a delay simulator capable > >of generating the same delays on a DVB-ASI type of signal. > > > >Does anyone know if such equipment is commercially available ? > > > > > > > >Daniel Delaruelle > >NEWTEC NV > >Laarstraat 5, B-9100 Sint-Niklaas, Belgium > >tel ++32 3 780 65 00 (switch-board) > >tel ++32 3 780 65 52 (direct) > >fax ++32 3 780 65 00 > >e-mail dd@newtec.be > > -- > > jon@interpacket.net Chief Science Officer > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The Global Leader in Internet Via Satellite" > InterPacket Networks, Inc. http://www.interpacket.net > 1901 Main St. tel (310) 382 3300 > Santa Monica, California 90405 fax (310) 382 3310 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 00:58:40 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA16188; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 00:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id XAA11700 for tcpsat-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 23:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA11696 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 23:51:17 -0400 (EDT) From: asaha@hss.hns.com Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id XAA21312; Sun, 8 Oct 2000 23:51:16 -0400 Received: from unknown(202.54.26.197) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma021228; Sun, 8 Oct 00 23:50:48 -0400 Received: from sandesh.hss.hns.com (sandesh [139.85.242.35]) by mars.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e993pVC29474 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:21:33 +0530 (IST) Received: by sandesh.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 65256973.00142877 ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:10:10 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSS To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <65256973.0014283A.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:15:38 +0530 Subject: Re: Moving Targets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk How about a small constellation of satellites in a highly inclined orbit (HEO?). Should be much cheaper than a LEO constellation though more difficult to manage. I understand the Russians use these pretty effectively. -Abheek "Dani I. Widjanarko" on 10/03/2000 05:33:57 AM Please respond to "Dani I. Widjanarko" To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: (bcc: Abheek Saha/HSS) Subject: Re: Moving Targets I don't think that LEO is a good solution, may be you can try to use HAPS (High Altitude Platform System) that now being explored by many countries. -dani- -----Original Message----- From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Date: 03 Oktober 2000 2:50 Subject: Moving Targets >Hi, > >I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving >targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving >targets are trains. > >We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so >uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard >to come by. > >By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is >needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to >fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > >Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be >required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO >constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > >Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way >of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles >without cabling etc. > >Thanks in advance, >Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 01:02:25 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA16235; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 01:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id AAA12850 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 00:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA12839 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 00:16:41 -0400 (EDT) From: asaha@hss.hns.com Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id AAA25247; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 00:16:40 -0400 Received: from unknown(202.54.26.197) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma025153; Mon, 9 Oct 00 00:16:27 -0400 Received: from sandesh.hss.hns.com (sandesh [139.85.242.35]) by mars.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e994HDC00950 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:47:13 +0530 (IST) Received: by sandesh.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 65256973.00167D99 ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:35:39 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSS To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <65256973.00167AF7.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:40:58 +0530 Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Hiya, [charlie] [deleted] Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities are anyway. [abheek] Actually, I was discussing this with my father just yesterday. He is an electrical engineer. The continuous leakage into the ground from the tracks would make it pretty unviable, in his opinion. Regards, Abheek From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 11:54:27 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA05798; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA16957 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA16938 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id LAA21872; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:08:43 -0400 Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com(24.0.95.82) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma021743; Mon, 9 Oct 00 11:08:23 -0400 Received: from cc1003186e ([24.180.69.117]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001009150813.YSWY27630.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc1003186e>; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 08:08:13 -0700 From: "Sing Lin]" To: , Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:03:55 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <65256973.0014283A.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun: USA, Japan and Europe have been doing substantial R&D on High Altitude Platform Station (HAPS) in recent few years. The technical contributions from these R&D sources to ITU-R WP8F/TG8/1 in the last two years have resulted in a Preliminary Draft New Recommendation (PDNR) and a Draft Handbook on HAPS in ITU-R WP8F working on the Third Generation (3G) wireless technologies and beyond. Therefore, HAPS is a serious project and technology to consider. Each platform is at about 21 Km above the ground and can cover a very large area. Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of asaha@hss.hns.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:46 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Moving Targets How about a small constellation of satellites in a highly inclined orbit (HEO?). Should be much cheaper than a LEO constellation though more difficult to manage. I understand the Russians use these pretty effectively. -Abheek "Dani I. Widjanarko" on 10/03/2000 05:33:57 AM Please respond to "Dani I. Widjanarko" To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: (bcc: Abheek Saha/HSS) Subject: Re: Moving Targets I don't think that LEO is a good solution, may be you can try to use HAPS (High Altitude Platform System) that now being explored by many countries. -dani- -----Original Message----- From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Date: 03 Oktober 2000 2:50 Subject: Moving Targets >Hi, > >I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving >targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving >targets are trains. > >We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so >uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard >to come by. > >By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is >needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to >fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > >Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be >required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO >constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > >Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way >of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles >without cabling etc. > >Thanks in advance, >Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 13:23:29 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA07184; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id MAA23826 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA23792 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id MAA22061; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:45:29 -0400 Received: from unknown(209.192.158.97) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma021874; Mon, 9 Oct 00 12:44:56 -0400 Received: from vaio1 (206.15.135.98[206.15.135.98])by ACOM1(MailMax 3.073) with ESMTP id 1562505 for ; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:47:23 -0400 EDT Message-ID: <016801c03210$3f355820$8d870fce@vaio1> From: "Charles A. Ross" To: , References: <8r3uvo+pnsa@eGroups.com> Subject: Re: Moving Targets>It's Easy>w/Moving Trains in the Wilderness!..a BEEDNET Specialty... Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:44:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: Re: Moving Targets...This is easy, gentlemen...with Moving Trains in the Wilderness!..Our specialty... Hello Shaun, and Global Colleague Ladies and Gentlemen.... This is very easy to do and it is one of our specialties for many years. Do a web search and you will see. We're always happy to help! We have been reading through weeks of agony and nice ideas here in this forum, but we've been totally busy with the INTELSAT Global Operations Representatives 2000 Meeting, just finished, and can only now get to this.We designed the comprehensive answer to your problem Shaun (and much more) several years ago; and it is easier and cheaper than many of our friends out there are thinking. We are happy to reply. In a nutshell...with a little creativity, and...certainly no cables are required, too! (Why? Expensive cables 'disappear' to unscrupulous scrap metal merchants in the wilderness, sold 'by the pound/kilo', and fibre just gets cut by angry, vengeful metallic cable thieves! High grade copper has its 'price' after the shiny new insulation is burnt off.) 1. Anybody have a yacht out on the Great Barrier Reef? Install a hybrid tracking antenna for Ku band on each train at the locomotive or baggage/goods car where your team is located...in a nice little low dome to keep things forever clean, and designed to be largely invisible to vandals. We can show you how to have no RF problems even on electrified lines....25,000V, for example! 2. Connect it to INTELSAT for a low cost uplink solution and global outbound connectivity. Want voice, too? A unified Extreme Thin Route VOIP stream in a very thin, yet quality controlled link does the trick, with on-demand service. 3. With a little creativity, one can also have a cheap DVB receive-only signal coming down...and all the Internet speed you can dream of at low cost. You may be able to use an existing service and piggy back your downloads on a system already up. We can make suggestions. 4. Again, please forget about Leos and Meos and highly elliptical orbits...your system doesn't need them. Keep it SIMPLE and Rugged...this is for trains, remember...and use COTS solutions we have already developed and anybody can do. Run it all on INTELSAT on the same bird. Keep life simple and cheap and Carrier Grade. We can work with our correspondent friends at TELSTRA to help you set it up quickly...get you local names to call, and such. 5. Please Don't Worry about the few tunnels. We answered that problem years ago in all its ramifications, including safety of highly valuable, even nuclear cargoes traveling through the wilderness where there are no radio or terrestrial links of any kind, by including a GPS system we designed on Trimble Navigation gear we do...though we can do it on anything you like. There are a lot of low cost bells and whistles we can add, but Please remember that you do not 'park' your trains in tunnels, and it only takes a few seconds to go through them. So, by default, from an operational safety perspective, if HQ loses your cheapo satellite ID return signal for more than a few seconds (think of it as a beep with a GPS locator ID included), your train is in trouble>>>'right there on the map on the monitor'. Remember every train has a known length...and every tunnel has a known length....and we know where your train is at all times in the beautiful Australian wilderness (right?)...and we know the speed your train is traveling at, in real time....and at what speed your train should be traveling...so we can set an alarm on the master console (hundreds of miles away) to go off if you don't come out of *that* tunnel after XX seconds, when your train normally re-registers by satellite from that nice little Ku band hybrid antenna we installed! If necessary, we call out the rescue helicopters in seconds to help you and they can be airborne and en-route to your precisely known location in a single handful of minutes! 6. We'll lease all the gear to you, too, so, it comes out of taxes and you can upgrade promptly at the right times, software included...so this is much easier for the railroad (or other service provider) to justify in the business plan. Some things on trains don't need to be screwed in for decades! Everyone please accept our apologies; no... we are not pitching a product/service, but please don't hesitate to drop us a line....We would love to work with you. We developed this comprehensive satellite, wireless, GPS and wireline answer (and more), many years ago for secure global transport of trains and ro-ro containers in Central Europe..and for even the individual sensitive cargoes on various cars/carriages on each train. It uses Cheap, Commercial-Off-The-Shelf *Everything...and it is "Carrier Grade" service. Australia was one of the model 'environments' we originally identified for such a solution as we developed for transport across the entire Eur-Asian Continental Market Area, particularly starting in Central and Eastern Europe...where problems can begin, so to speak. It is part of a comprehensive global secure transport solution we presented to the European Commission, DG XIII, years ago, in cooperation with the Czech Railways. We designed it for and with them, as you can read on the web. Best Regards, Charles A. Ross President BEEDNET Group Prague & Washington +1.703.524.1517 E-VoiceMail & E-Fax +420.603.500.000 GSM BeedNet1@BEEDNET.NET ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2000 1:50 AM Subject: Moving Targets > Hi, > > I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving > targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving > targets are trains. > > We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so > uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard > to come by. > > By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is > needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to > fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > > Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be > required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO > constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > > Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way > of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles > without cabling etc. > > Thanks in advance, > Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 16:07:19 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA09601; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id PAA03425 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA03406 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id PAA08359; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:26:16 -0400 Received: from c008-h017.c008.sfo.cp.net(209.228.14.206) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma008208; Mon, 9 Oct 00 15:25:46 -0400 Received: (cpmta 19922 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2000 12:25:45 -0700 Received: from adsl-63-197-185-51.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO s2com) (63.197.185.51) by smtp.s2com.net (209.228.14.206) with SMTP; 9 Oct 2000 12:25:45 -0700 X-Sent: 9 Oct 2000 19:25:45 GMT Message-ID: <01d401c03225$a68fe200$33b9c53f@s2com> From: "Peter Sterling" To: Subject: Moving Targets Solution Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:18:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C031EA.FA065080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C031EA.FA065080 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01D1_01C031EA.FA065080" ------=_NextPart_001_01D1_01C031EA.FA065080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the viable commercial solution to the problem; www.s2com.net =20 Peter Sterling ------=_NextPart_001_01D1_01C031EA.FA065080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the viable commercial solution to the problem;
 
 
Peter Sterling
------=_NextPart_001_01D1_01C031EA.FA065080-- ------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C031EA.FA065080 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Peter Sterling.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Peter Sterling.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Sterling;Peter FN:Peter Sterling ORG:Sterling Satellite Communications LP;HQ TITLE:CEO TEL;WORK;VOICE:+1 (323) 965-5597 TEL;HOME;VOICE:(323) 965-5507 TEL;WORK;FAX:+1 (323) 965-1242 TEL;HOME;FAX:(323) 965-1242 ADR;WORK:;;5900 Wilshire Blvd, 26th floor;Los Angeles;CA;90036;USA LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:5900 Wilshire Blvd, 26th = floor=3D0D=3D0ALos Angeles, CA 90036=3D0D=3D0AUSA ADR;HOME:;;5900 Wilshire Blvd, 26th floor;Los Angeles;CA;90036;USA LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:5900 Wilshire Blvd, 26th = floor=3D0D=3D0ALos Angeles, CA 90036=3D0D=3D0AUSA URL:http://www,s2com.net URL:http://www.s2com.net EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:Peter@s2com.net REV:20001009T191805Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_01D0_01C031EA.FA065080-- From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Mon Oct 9 17:16:07 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA10045; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id QAA09123 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA09090 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id QAA26106; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:36:34 -0400 Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk(131.227.76.5) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma025968; Mon, 9 Oct 00 16:35:45 -0400 Received: from regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.89.11]) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13ijeB-0006Yc-00; Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:35:43 +0100 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:35:42 +0100 (BST) From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: L.Wood@eim.surrey.ac.uk To: Peter Sterling cc: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Moving Targets Solution In-Reply-To: <01d401c03225$a68fe200$33b9c53f@s2com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Peter Sterling wrote: [html crud] > Here is the viable commercial solution to the problem; > > www.s2com.net > > Peter Sterling Did I miss the launch of your constellation and the deployment of your service? L. PGP From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 10 00:44:26 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA15967; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id XAA03352 for tcpsat-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA03341 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:58:04 -0400 (EDT) From: asaha@hss.hns.com Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id XAA13686; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:58:03 -0400 Received: from unknown(202.54.26.197) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma013608; Mon, 9 Oct 00 23:57:35 -0400 Received: from sandesh.hss.hns.com (sandesh [139.85.242.35]) by mars.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e9A3wBC25307 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:28:13 +0530 (IST) Received: by sandesh.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 65256974.0014C5FF ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:16:54 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSS To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Message-ID: <65256974.0014C47B.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:22:17 +0530 Subject: RE: Moving Targets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Sing Lin, I seem to remember that the HAPS platform have to use frequencies in the 80Ghz range because they are classified as stratospheric devices. Wasn't skystation (the constellation floated by Gen. Haig) based on HAPS platforms? Any pointers on how hard it is to build terminals at those frequencies? What happens to rain-fade and stuff like that? -Very best regards, Abheek "Sing Lin]" on 10/09/2000 08:33:55 PM To: Abheek Saha/HSS@HSS, tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: Subject: RE: Moving Targets Shaun: USA, Japan and Europe have been doing substantial R&D on High Altitude Platform Station (HAPS) in recent few years. The technical contributions from these R&D sources to ITU-R WP8F/TG8/1 in the last two years have resulted in a Preliminary Draft New Recommendation (PDNR) and a Draft Handbook on HAPS in ITU-R WP8F working on the Third Generation (3G) wireless technologies and beyond. Therefore, HAPS is a serious project and technology to consider. Each platform is at about 21 Km above the ground and can cover a very large area. Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of asaha@hss.hns.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:46 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Moving Targets How about a small constellation of satellites in a highly inclined orbit (HEO?). Should be much cheaper than a LEO constellation though more difficult to manage. I understand the Russians use these pretty effectively. -Abheek "Dani I. Widjanarko" on 10/03/2000 05:33:57 AM Please respond to "Dani I. Widjanarko" To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: (bcc: Abheek Saha/HSS) Subject: Re: Moving Targets I don't think that LEO is a good solution, may be you can try to use HAPS (High Altitude Platform System) that now being explored by many countries. -dani- -----Original Message----- From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Date: 03 Oktober 2000 2:50 Subject: Moving Targets >Hi, > >I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving >targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving >targets are trains. > >We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so >uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard >to come by. > >By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is >needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to >fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > >Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be >required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO >constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > >Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way >of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles >without cabling etc. > >Thanks in advance, >Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 10 01:58:43 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA22410; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id BAA06739 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA06726 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id BAA25394; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:17:37 -0400 Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com(24.0.95.82) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma025281; Tue, 10 Oct 00 01:16:40 -0400 Received: from cc1003186e ([24.180.69.117]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001010051630.DFXF14056.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cc1003186e>; Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:16:30 -0700 From: "Sing Lin]" To: , Subject: RE: Looking for suppliers of Solid State Power Amplifier Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:12:13 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <65256973.0014283A.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: I am looking for suppliers of 400-watt Solid State Power Amplifier (SSPA) that operates in the standard C band from 5850 to 6425 MHz and shall have 1x1 and 1x2 protection switching configuration. We also need an up converter from the IF at 140 MHz with 80-MHz bandwidth. The suppliers must have ISO-9000 quality certification. If you know of suitable suppliers for such SSPA and up converter, please let me know. Sincerely, Sing H. Lin, Ph.D. Senior Vice President - Technology Development Link Communications Inc. (LINKCOM) 125 Half Mile Road, Suite 200 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701-6749 USA Phone: 732-933-2744 (Office) Phone: 732-670-5686 (Mobile) Fax: 732-946-7148 E-Mail: sing-lin@monmouth.com From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 10 12:32:42 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA07644; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id LAA14128 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA14081 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id LAA09713; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:43:45 -0400 Received: from exchange1.sset.com(206.216.5.6) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma008940; Tue, 10 Oct 00 11:42:56 -0400 Received: by exchange1.sset.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <429BP4VB>; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:44:58 -0700 Message-ID: <51E0CBE218C9D21188F400805F650E1FA077F0@exchange1.sset.com> From: Marilyn Ross To: "'asaha@hss.hns.com'" , tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: AW: Moving Targets Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:44:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk pls advise how we may remove our name from this email list please?? -----Original Message----- From: asaha@hss.hns.com [mailto:asaha@hss.hns.com] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 9:11 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: AW: Moving Targets Hiya, [charlie] [deleted] Want a real research project? Find a way to send the signal through the train tracks. ;) Only way to really fix the tunnel problem! Seriously though, I'd talk to some of the wireless providers in Australia. Australia is quite advanced at digital wireless services, they might be all over an additional excuse to expand their east coast network where most Aussie cities are anyway. [abheek] Actually, I was discussing this with my father just yesterday. He is an electrical engineer. The continuous leakage into the ground from the tracks would make it pretty unviable, in his opinion. Regards, Abheek From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 10 22:13:52 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA17786; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id RAA15723 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA15675 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id RAA02117; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:45:34 -0400 Received: from speedbuggy.telerama.com(205.201.1.216) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma001798; Tue, 10 Oct 00 17:44:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 4281 invoked by uid 65534); 10 Oct 2000 21:44:25 -0000 Message-ID: <20001010214425.4280.qmail@speedbuggy.telerama.com> Date: 10 Oct 2000 17:44:25 -0400 From: Matt Newcomb To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Reply-To: Matt Newcomb References: <51E0CBE218C9D21188F400805F650E1FA077F0@exchange1.sset.com> In-Reply-To: <51E0CBE218C9D21188F400805F650E1FA077F0@exchange1.sset.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: IMP/PHP3 Imap webMail Program 2.0.9 X-Originating-IP: 205.201.40.172 Subject: Tuning the Linux TCP stack? Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day, I've got a few linux boxes at the other end of a satellite link ( at the South Pole ). We have to use satellites with inclined orbits, and don't have enough satellites for twenty four hour coverage. The satellites have different transmission rates ( anywhere from 56K up to a little over a T1 ). The optimum parameters for the TCP stack thus changes with each satellite right? Are there any auto-tuning tcp stacks out there ( hopefully for linux? ). Matt Newcomb From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Wed Oct 11 00:45:21 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA20414; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id XAA15008 for tcpsat-outgoing; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14986 for ; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id XAA09913; Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:39:07 -0400 Received: from out4.prserv.net(32.97.166.34) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma009885; Tue, 10 Oct 00 23:39:03 -0400 Received: from rnobis ([32.101.170.127]) by prserv.net (out4) with SMTP id <2000101103385923901fp2rse>; Wed, 11 Oct 2000 03:39:01 +0000 Reply-To: From: "att global mail" To: "Sing Lin]" , , Subject: RE: Looking for suppliers of Solid State Power Amplifier Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:40:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov id XAA14989 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Try Comtech-EFData at www.comtechefdata.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of Sing Lin] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 10:12 PM To: asaha@hss.hns.com; tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: Looking for suppliers of Solid State Power Amplifier Hi: I am looking for suppliers of 400-watt Solid State Power Amplifier (SSPA) that operates in the standard C band from 5850 to 6425 MHz and shall have 1x1 and 1x2 protection switching configuration. We also need an up converter from the IF at 140 MHz with 80-MHz bandwidth. The suppliers must have ISO-9000 quality certification. If you know of suitable suppliers for such SSPA and up converter, please let me know. Sincerely, Sing H. Lin, Ph.D. Senior Vice President - Technology Development Link Communications Inc. (LINKCOM) 125 Half Mile Road, Suite 200 Red Bank, New Jersey 07701-6749 USA Phone: 732-933-2744 (Office) Phone: 732-670-5686 (Mobile) Fax: 732-946-7148 E-Mail: sing-lin@monmouth.com From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 12 09:48:11 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25784; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id IAA26114 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26080 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id IAA13237; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:57:13 -0400 Received: from rly-ip01.mx.aol.com(205.188.156.49) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma012717; Thu, 12 Oct 00 08:56:32 -0400 Received: from tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (tot-tr.proxy.aol.com [152.163.201.131]) by rly-ip01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id IAA27501; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1003186d (AC99EAB7.ipt.aol.com [172.153.234.183]) by tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e9CCu0C14177; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:56:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sing Lin" To: , Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:00:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <65256974.0014C47B.00@sandesh.hss.hns.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Apparently-From: SingLin3@aol.com Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abheek: In addition to the 70 GHz band allocation for HAPS, the proponent of HAPS also proposed HAPS for the 2GHz band allocated for the 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems. Substantial work have been done on the frequency coordination criteria and coordination distance to make sure that HAPS and terrestrial and satellite based 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems will not interfer with each other. Therefore, under suitable conditions, HAPS may operate in the 2 GHz IMT-2000 bands. Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of asaha@hss.hns.com Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:52 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: RE: Moving Targets Sing Lin, I seem to remember that the HAPS platform have to use frequencies in the 80Ghz range because they are classified as stratospheric devices. Wasn't skystation (the constellation floated by Gen. Haig) based on HAPS platforms? Any pointers on how hard it is to build terminals at those frequencies? What happens to rain-fade and stuff like that? -Very best regards, Abheek "Sing Lin]" on 10/09/2000 08:33:55 PM To: Abheek Saha/HSS@HSS, tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: Subject: RE: Moving Targets Shaun: USA, Japan and Europe have been doing substantial R&D on High Altitude Platform Station (HAPS) in recent few years. The technical contributions from these R&D sources to ITU-R WP8F/TG8/1 in the last two years have resulted in a Preliminary Draft New Recommendation (PDNR) and a Draft Handbook on HAPS in ITU-R WP8F working on the Third Generation (3G) wireless technologies and beyond. Therefore, HAPS is a serious project and technology to consider. Each platform is at about 21 Km above the ground and can cover a very large area. Sing Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov [mailto:owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov]On Behalf Of asaha@hss.hns.com Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 11:46 PM To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: Moving Targets How about a small constellation of satellites in a highly inclined orbit (HEO?). Should be much cheaper than a LEO constellation though more difficult to manage. I understand the Russians use these pretty effectively. -Abheek "Dani I. Widjanarko" on 10/03/2000 05:33:57 AM Please respond to "Dani I. Widjanarko" To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov cc: (bcc: Abheek Saha/HSS) Subject: Re: Moving Targets I don't think that LEO is a good solution, may be you can try to use HAPS (High Altitude Platform System) that now being explored by many countries. -dani- -----Original Message----- From: shaun-tos@venuecentral.com.au To: tcpsat@grc.nasa.gov Date: 03 Oktober 2000 2:50 Subject: Moving Targets >Hi, > >I'm doing a research project about providing Internet access to moving >targets on the eastern seabord of Australia. In this case, the moving >targets are trains. > >We really need to provide around 1MB or so downstream, maybe 56k or so >uplink. I've been doing a lot of searching but facts seem to be hard >to come by. > >By my reckoning something like a link to an LEO constellation is >needed to make this work because: > - GEO satellites can't easily provide this type of bandwidth > - GEO satellites require reasonably large dishes and need to >fairly precisely targetted at the sat > - Line of sight is needed for GEO links to work > >Basically, I'm hoping that with LEO links a dish won't even be >required, some sort of antenna? Do any of the currently existing LEO >constellations provide this sort of service? Future ones? > >Am I completely barking up the wrong tree here? Is there a better way >of providing reasonably high speed internet access to moving vehicles >without cabling etc. > >Thanks in advance, >Shaun > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 12 10:00:10 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA26107; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id JAA00888 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA00848 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id JAA03784; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:24:13 -0400 Received: from rly-ip02.mx.aol.com(152.163.225.160) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma003471; Thu, 12 Oct 00 09:23:53 -0400 Received: from tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (tot-tr.proxy.aol.com [152.163.201.131]) by rly-ip02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/AOL-5.0.0) with ESMTP id JAA21153; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1003186d (AC99EAB7.ipt.aol.com [172.153.234.183]) by tot-tr.proxy.aol.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e9CDNYC12821; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sing Lin" To: "Smith JR, Harry E" , "Sat TCP mail list" Subject: RE: Moving Targets Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:27:53 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Apparently-From: SingLin3@aol.com Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shaun: With proper engineering, one may use the terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems in the densely populated area to serve the moving train and use the HAPS in the rural, low population density areas to serve the moving train. In densely populated areas, there are enough subscribers to justify deployment of terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 systems, whereas in the rural, low population density areas, it is more economical to deploy HAPS. Since terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 systems will not be deployed in rural areas, there is less possibility of radio interference problems for HAPS to operate in the 2 GHz IMT-2000 frequency bands in the rural areas. Sing Lin *********** Abheek: In addition to the 70 GHz band allocation for HAPS, the proponent of HAPS also proposed HAPS for the 2GHz band allocated for the 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems. Substantial work have been done on the frequency coordination criteria and coordination distance to make sure that HAPS and terrestrial and satellite based 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems will not interfer with each other. Therefore, under suitable conditions, HAPS may operate in the 2 GHz IMT-2000 bands. Sing Lin *************** Shaun: USA, Japan and Europe have been doing substantial R&D on High Altitude Platform Station (HAPS) in recent few years. The technical contributions from these R&D sources to ITU-R WP8F/TG8/1 in the last two years have resulted in a Preliminary Draft New Recommendation (PDNR) and a Draft Handbook on HAPS in ITU-R WP8F working on the Third Generation (3G) wireless technologies and beyond. Therefore, HAPS is a serious project and technology to consider. Each platform is at about 21 Km above the ground and can cover a very large area. Sing Lin From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Thu Oct 12 11:20:50 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA29641; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id KAA15188 for tcpsat-outgoing; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA15131 for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id KAA11571; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:43:41 -0400 Received: from mailgw3a.lmco.com(192.35.35.24) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma010516; Thu, 12 Oct 00 10:42:41 -0400 Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com ([129.197.181.54]) by mailgw3a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20755; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) id <0G2B00O01NIB16@lmco.com>; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emss01i00.ems.lmc.com ([129.197.181.70]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) with ESMTP id <0G2B002P2NI6RA@lmco.com>; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emss01i00.ems.lmco.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4NN96GKJ>; Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:42:18 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:42:43 -0700 From: "Smith JR, Harry E" Subject: RE: Moving Targets To: Sing Lin , "Smith JR, Harry E" , Sat TCP mail list Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT While the concept of HAPS is interesting, I am not sure that I agree with the economic arguments. All of the early HAPS were not economical when one include the life cycle costs. Do you have any information on vendors and their projected life cycle cost for HAPS. Harry > -----Original Message----- > From: Sing Lin [SMTP:sing-lin@monmouth.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:28 AM > To: Smith JR, Harry E; Sat TCP mail list > Subject: RE: Moving Targets > > Shaun: > > With proper engineering, one may use the terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 wireless > systems in the densely populated area to serve the moving train and use > the > HAPS in the rural, low population density areas to serve the moving train. > > In densely populated areas, there are enough subscribers to justify > deployment of terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 systems, whereas in the rural, low > population density areas, it is more economical to deploy HAPS. Since > terrestrial 3G IMT-2000 systems will not be deployed in rural areas, there > is less possibility of radio interference problems for HAPS to operate in > the 2 GHz IMT-2000 frequency bands in the rural areas. > > Sing Lin > *********** > > Abheek: > > In addition to the 70 GHz band allocation for HAPS, the proponent of HAPS > also proposed HAPS for the 2GHz band allocated for the 3G IMT-2000 > wireless > systems. Substantial work have been done on the frequency coordination > criteria and coordination distance to make sure that HAPS and terrestrial > and satellite based 3G IMT-2000 wireless systems will not interfer with > each > other. Therefore, under suitable conditions, HAPS may operate in the 2 GHz > IMT-2000 bands. > > Sing Lin > *************** > > Shaun: > > USA, Japan and Europe have been doing substantial R&D on High Altitude > Platform Station (HAPS) in recent few years. The technical contributions > from these R&D sources to ITU-R WP8F/TG8/1 in the last two years have > resulted in a Preliminary Draft New Recommendation (PDNR) and a Draft > Handbook on HAPS in ITU-R WP8F working on the Third Generation (3G) > wireless > technologies and beyond. Therefore, HAPS is a serious project and > technology > to consider. Each platform is at about 21 Km above the ground and can > cover > a very large area. > > Sing Lin > From owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Sat Oct 21 15:03:08 2000 Received: from lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.33]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA11679; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 15:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from listserv@localhost) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) id OAA02349 for tcpsat-outgoing; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov (firewall-user@guardian03.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.146.12]) by lombok-fi.lerc.nasa.gov (NASA LeRC 8.9.1.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA02343 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov; id OAA05838; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:07:32 -0400 Received: from c008-h017.c008.sfo.cp.net(209.228.14.206) by seraph3.lerc.nasa.gov via smap (V5.5) id xma005803; Sat, 21 Oct 00 14:06:47 -0400 Received: (cpmta 21200 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2000 11:06:46 -0700 Received: from adsl-63-197-185-51.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (HELO s2com) (63.197.185.51) by smtp.s2com.net (209.228.14.206) with SMTP; 21 Oct 2000 11:06:46 -0700 X-Sent: 21 Oct 2000 18:06:46 GMT Message-ID: <001e01c03b88$a85afc20$33b9c53f@s2com> From: "Peter Sterling" To: "Charles A. Ross" Cc: References: <8r3uvo+pnsa@eGroups.com> <016801c03210$3f355820$8d870fce@vaio1> Subject: Re: Moving Targets>It's Easy>w/Moving Trains in the Wilderness!..a BEEDNET Specialty... Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:59:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-tcpsat@lerc.nasa.gov Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mobile & Satellite: Bluetooth trial raises spectrum concerns By Joanne Taaffe 05 June 2000 CWI Online .......The Swedish Railway has installed the Bluetooth LAN on a commuter train that runs into Stockholm, as well as at the Stockholm central railway station. Users have maximum data access speeds of 1 megabit per second. The trial is limited to around 10 commuters, each with a GSM WAP phone and a Bluetooth unit. The commuters can store virtual train tickets in their phones which are punched virtually by the train conductor, who can also use the Bluetooth LAN to check that the ticket corresponds to the seat number. "It's a boost for our own staff and for our customers," said Tony Nyden, manager of IT and infrastructure for the Swedish Railway, which plans to extend the service to offer its customers and staff Internet access via satellite networks. No clear business models The Railway relies on a publicly owned GSM network, called GSM.R, dedicated to its use for links between the moving train and the outside world. Transport companies, airports and conference centers are likely to be first to deploy Bluetooth for ticket sales, information services and e-mail downloads. From mplummer@fastbit.com Fri Oct 27 15:51:18 2000 Received: from fastbit_west.fastbit.com ([216.115.236.26]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA13699 for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by FASTBIT_WEST with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4Q30NFGW>; Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:36:41 -0700 Message-ID: <88EA076E4321D411917900D0B749B2D207B6E4@FASTBIT_WEST> From: Marcus Plummer To: Marcus Plummer Subject: FastBit Technologies Quarterly Newsletter Vol 1 Issue 1 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:36:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0404D.371316D2" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0404D.371316D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" *=================================* * FastBit Technologies Quarterly Newsletter * * 2000 August * *=================================* Greetings everyone! We at FastBit have received e-mails from some of our contacts informing us that they didn't receive the original message in its original format. We decided to investigate and found that some servers cannot properly process the newsletter. So we are sending the first issue to you again in an attached PDF file, you will need adobe acrobat to view this file, if you don't have Acrobat or a PDF viewer the software is available free at http://www.adobe.com . We at FastBit Technologies thank you and wish all a Happy Halloween!!!! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0404D.371316D2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D*
* = FastBit=20 Technologies Quarterly Newsletter    = *
*=20             =            =20 2000=20 August           =            =20 *
*=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D*
 
Greetings=20 everyone!
We at = FastBit have=20 received e-mails from some of our contacts informing us = that they=20 didn't receive the original message in its original format. We = decided to=20 investigate and found that some servers cannot properly process the=20 newsletter.
So we = are sending=20 the first issue to you again in an attached PDF file, you will need = adobe=20 acrobat to view this file, if you don't have Acrobat or a PDF viewer = the=20 software is available free at http://www.adobe.com. =
 
We at = FastBit=20 Technologies thank you and wish all a Happy=20 Halloween!!!!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0404D.371316D2-- From mplummer@fastbit.com Mon Oct 30 18:30:05 2000 Received: from fastbit_west.fastbit.com ([216.115.236.26]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA16655 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by FASTBIT_WEST with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4Q30NFSH>; Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:18:10 -0800 Message-ID: <88EA076E4321D411917900D0B749B2D207B6F1@FASTBIT_WEST> From: Marcus Plummer To: Marcus Plummer Subject: FastBit Technologies Quarterly Newsletter Vol 1 Issue 1 Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:17:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C042C7.A76609C2" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C042C7.A76609C2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C042C7.A76609C2" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C042C7.A76609C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" FastBit Technologies apologizes for a technical difficulty experienced Friday October 27th, 2000. Our quarterly publication, which is distributed using the internet, was sent without the PDF attachment. This is a follow up message with the appropriate PDF attached, FastBit Technologies again apologizes for any inconvenience. Thank you and happy holidays ------_=_NextPart_001_01C042C7.A76609C2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
FastBit Technologies apologizes for a technical difficulty experienced Friday October 27th, 2000. Our quarterly publication, which is distributed using the internet, was sent without the PDF attachment.
 
This is a follow up message with the appropriate PDF attached, FastBit Technologies again apologizes for any inconvenience.
 
Thank you and happy holidays
 
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