From nobody Tue Oct 1 02:22:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90AD4120120; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 02:22:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.103.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <156992173358.23603.4074004254805476920.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 02:22:13 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Abstain_on_draft-ietf-teas?= =?utf-8?q?-native-ip-scenarios-09=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 09:22:14 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I share Alvaro's and TSV reviewer feeling about this is not a usual RFC but rather a scientific paper (even if the results are not really a surprise). So, I am abstaining. Some comments though: - why using OSPF and not IS-IS for the comparison ? Not that it would change a lot IMHO - when using generated topologies, little is written on how it is generated (as it could introduce some bias changing the results of section 4.4) - using the new format for XML2RFC could have included SVG for graphics Interesting read anyway -éric From nobody Tue Oct 1 08:26:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F501200FA; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19s37o9pWp1a; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 08:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFBB6120872; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 08:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.137.171.237] (unknown [106.121.5.177]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 6FB6A66127E; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 23:26:15 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F09CB007-354A-4C1E-BE47-21AFF5F7342F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <50053823-8854-4528-AD53-F88F2C95A78C@tsinghua.org.cn> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 23:26:14 +0800 Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZTlVKSU5ZV1koWUFKTEtLSjdXWS1ZQU lXWQkOFx4IWUFZNTQpNjo3JCkuNz5ZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6MEk6DDo5LDlITkpWEjQPHgI6 DRRPCkJVSlVKTk1CQk9ITkNKTUxOVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKS01VSklKVU5VSkxMWVdZCAFZQUpKTU1INwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d87eddba59373kuws6fb6a66127e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Abstain_on_draft-ietf-teas?= =?utf-8?q?-native-ip-scenarios-09=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 15:26:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-F09CB007-354A-4C1E-BE47-21AFF5F7342F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFHi, =C3=89ric Vyncke: Thanks for you review. As I explained in previous mails for Alvaro and TSV reviewer, this draft des= cribes mainly the TE scenarios that needed in operators=E2=80=99 network and= the simulation optimization results from the global view. Such kind of efforts are inadequate in current IETF community considering th= e networks are controlled mainly by distributed protocol. With the emerge of critical applications in 5G era, the E2E QoS assurance re= quirements will be pervasive and it almost impossible to accomplish the expe= cted results without the info of global view and the help of central control= . This draft, together with other two drafts: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip/ (Solutions) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip/(PC= EP extension) just want to solve such problems in one feasible way. Wish the above info can convince you for the future vote of this draft. The followings are responses for your comments: 1. OSPF or ISIS will not influence the simulation results, as they are all b= ased on Dijkstra algorithm. 2. The topology is generated in random manner under the rule described in ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09#section-4.2= . That is, the core nodes are connected in full mesh and the edge connects t= he core in random links. We have tried several different topology and the re= sults are similar. 3. We will try to use the new XML2RFC format for the SVG graph in next versi= on if necessary. Anyway, the reader can get the impressive concept by compar= ison the results described in section 4.4 and 4.5 Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 1, 2019, at 17:22, =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF=C3=89ric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I share Alvaro's and TSV reviewer feeling about this is not a usual RFC bu= t > rather a scientific paper (even if the results are not really a surprise).= So, > I am abstaining. >=20 > Some comments though: > - why using OSPF and not IS-IS for the comparison ? Not that it would chan= ge a > lot IMHO - when using generated topologies, little is written on how it is= > generated (as it could introduce some bias changing the results of section= 4.4) > - using the new format for XML2RFC could have included SVG for graphics >=20 > Interesting read anyway >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-F09CB007-354A-4C1E-BE47-21AFF5F7342F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BFHi, =C3=89r= ic Vyncke:
Thanks for you review.
As I expla= ined in previous mails for Alvaro and TSV reviewer, this draft describes mai= nly the TE scenarios that needed in operators=E2=80=99 network and the simul= ation optimization results from the global view.

=
Such kind of efforts are inadequate in current I= ETF community considering the networks are controlled mainly by distributed p= rotocol.

With the emerge of critical applic= ations in 5G era, the E2E QoS assurance requirements will be pervasive and i= t almost impossible to accomplish the expected results without the info of g= lobal view and the help of central control.

This draft, together with other two drafts:



just want to so= lve such problems in one feasible way.
Wish the above info c= an convince you for the future vote of this draft.
The followings are responses for your comments:
1. O= SPF or ISIS will not influence the simulation results, as they are all based= on Dijkstra algorithm.
2. The topology is generated in rand= om manner under the rule described in https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09#section-4.2. Tha= t is, the core nodes are connected in full mesh and the edge connects the co= re in random links. We have tried several different topology and the results= are similar.
3. We will try to use the new XML2RFC fo= rmat for the SVG graph in next version if necessary. Anyway, the reader can g= et the impressive concept by comparison the results described in section 4.4= and 4.5

Thanks in advance.=


Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On= Oct 1, 2019, at 17:22, =C3=89ric Vyncke via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.or= g> wrote:
<= br>
=EF=BB=BF=C3=89ric Vyncke ha= s entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line i= ntact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph,= however.)

Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statemen= t/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
=


<= span>The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/

<= span>

-----------------------------------= -----------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">I share Alvaro's and TSV reviewer feeling abo= ut this is not a usual RFC but
rather a scientific paper (even if the results are not really a su= rprise). So,
I am abs= taining.

<= /blockquote>
Some comments though:
=
- why using OSPF and not IS-IS f= or the comparison ? Not that it would change a
lot IMHO - when using generated topologies, little= is written on how it is
generated (as it could introduce some bias changing the results of secti= on 4.4)
- using the n= ew format for XML2RFC could have included SVG for graphics

Interesting read anyway

-=C3=A9ric

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
<= /blockquote>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/teas
= --Apple-Mail-F09CB007-354A-4C1E-BE47-21AFF5F7342F-- From nobody Tue Oct 1 10:16:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A214812008B; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 10:16:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.103.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <156995018157.23709.7704763565021112417@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 10:16:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-11.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 17:16:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Traffic Engineering Common YANG Types Authors : Tarek Saad Rakesh Gandhi Xufeng Liu Vishnu Pavan Beeram Igor Bryskin Filename : draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-11.txt Pages : 85 Date : 2019-10-01 Abstract: This document defines a collection of common data types and groupings in YANG data modeling language. These derived common types and groupings are intended to be imported by modules that model Traffic Engineering (TE) configuration and state capabilities. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Oct 1 10:41:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC5E1200DE; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tOwH2YumsNny; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=7X5tCv176ga/3s4RVXN+Qig+iNEOeqYertF9VNj+E5E=; b=Cq90RB6gVD8gxc2jfgAnpV6YP4xLUhvNwKhjVHEUEcwbgYypHUbx/67Byk8Zdgv/nR vJoek31wmvMwn2hjbtNS8yg5syG0wfuo9yIdAk0gbzr1d1i54G1Za6bjJ6K2SStuYCMO xMcCIBMWJP9ImdFCLhNTVByq+Z9iZ2BiWF220NP2kh8g8LlysEjdvgI9YBRmARGK9xg0 gOrj4ZQcNFrZLcivfFCs16la/AXGPYajGjt36582WqKORw4ujG9s5v9nnZuQcqESMiBI x8E+2upvc6EKpJbdzHwdsef3kcSMO1n0fQAnnpnQ18S0miIPjbPKgurCgXS6zQZWm7Ir ahVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=7X5tCv176ga/3s4RVXN+Qig+iNEOeqYertF9VNj+E5E=; b=JrFxraeBiDsiO7rMU4fSjnFJsEnGQ+MHVyuSRUQvcEvwha1WqvNo+y5GBXZkq/3OX6 RTv+GqNykf3FP7HrDtaEtGYzpKd70ln0iFOX+5DRMF+IhRM/2X6qVHM2pDe7mteoB9xD Scp4E+8/DtKhpPbJUisCHd2Du8VZjV/9BRlQTfRZr/8bnCBvB4WFc68Ht6Nnoc+xoJJj 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Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 14:42:49 -0000 --00000000000061dbf70593ee7b5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear TEAS WG, Below please find a pointer IP TE+NP draft posted to teas wg. After initial post to RTGWG I got recommendations from chairs and AD suggesting that better place for this work would be TEAS WG so here we are. Between original post and this submission I also got number of very good constructive feedback from number of people which I collected and incorporated. I would like to encourage further reviews. If there is working group's interest in progressing this work at least on my side I am offering help to move it forward. Kind regards, Robert. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 4:21 PM Subject: I-D Action: draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00.txt To: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : IP Traffic Engineering Architecture with Network Programming Author : Robert Raszuk Filename : draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2019-10-02 Abstract: This document describes a control plane based IP Traffic Engineering Architecture where path information is kept in the control plane by selected nodes instead of being inserted into each packet on ingress of an administrative domain. The described proposal is also fully compatible with the concept of network programming. It is positioned as a complimentary technique to native SRv6 and can be used when there are concerns with increased packet size due to depth of SID stack, possible concerns regarding exceeding MTU or more strict simplicity requirements typically seen in number of enterprise networks. The proposed solution is applicable to both IPv4 or IPv6 based networks. As an additional added value, detection of end to end path liveness as well as dynamic path selection based on real time path quality is integrated from day one in the design. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --00000000000061dbf70593ee7b5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear TEAS WG,

Below please f= ind a pointer IP TE+NP draft posted to teas wg.=C2=A0

<= div>After initial post to RTGWG I got recommendations from chairs and AD su= ggesting that better place for this work would be TEAS WG so here we are.= =C2=A0

Between original post and this submission I= also got number of very good constructive feedback from number of people w= hich I collected and incorporated.=C2=A0

I would l= ike to encourage further reviews. If there is working group's interest = in progressing this work at least on my side I am offering help to move it= =C2=A0forward.=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Rober= t.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.o= rg>
Date: Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 4:21 PM
Subject: I-D Acti= on: draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00.txt
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Interne= t-Drafts directories.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= IP Traffic Engineering Architecture with Network Programming
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Robe= rt Raszuk
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ras= zuk-teas-ip-te-np-00.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 22
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2019-10-02

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes a control plane based IP Traffic Engin= eering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Architecture where path information is kept in the control pla= ne by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0selected nodes instead of being inserted into each packet on i= ngress
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of an administrative domain.=C2=A0 The described proposal is a= lso fully
=C2=A0 =C2=A0compatible with the concept of network programming.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It is positioned as a complimentary technique to native SRv6 a= nd can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be used when there are concerns with increased packet size due= to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0depth of SID stack, possible concerns regarding exceeding MTU = or more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0strict simplicity requirements typically seen in number of ent= erprise
=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks.=C2=A0 The proposed solution is applicable to both IP= v4 or IPv6
=C2=A0 =C2=A0based networks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0As an additional added value, detection of end to end path liv= eness
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as well as dynamic path selection based on real time path qual= ity is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0integrated from day one in the design.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-r= aszuk-teas-ip-te-np/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-= teas-ip-te-np-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= html/draft-raszuk-teas-ip-te-np-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce=
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
--00000000000061dbf70593ee7b5d-- From nobody Wed Oct 2 11:31:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593DE1200B7; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:31:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Liaison Statement Management Tool To: "Dhruv Dhody" , "Julien Meuric" , "Stewart Bryant" , "Fatai Zhang" , "Daniele Ceccarelli" , "Andrew Malis" , "Loa Andersson" , "Lou Berger" , "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" , "Tarek Saad" , "Nicolai Leymann" Cc: Deborah Brungard , Julien Meuric , Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List , Dhruv Dhody , Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services Discussion List , Andrew Malis , Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List , Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List , Martin Vigoureux , Scott Mansfield , sshew@ciena.com, Fatai Zhang , Nicolai Leymann , John Drake , Loa Andersson , Daniele Ceccarelli , Vishnu Beeram , Stewart Bryant , Path Computation Element Discussion List , Lou Berger , Tarek Saad , itu-t-liaison@iab.org, Alvaro Retana X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157004108730.8912.11516269304394665036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 11:31:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] New Liaison Statement, "LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan" X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 18:31:28 -0000 Title: LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan Submission Date: 2019-10-02 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1654/ Please reply by 2020-01-06 From: Hiroshi Ota To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , Lou Berger ,Andrew Malis ,Stewart Bryant ,Loa Andersson ,Nicolai Leymann ,Tarek Saad ,Julien Meuric ,Dhruv Dhody ,Daniele Ceccarelli ,Fatai Zhang Cc: Deborah Brungard ,Julien Meuric ,Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List ,Dhruv Dhody ,Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services Discussion List ,Andrew Malis ,Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List ,Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List ,John Drake ,Scott Mansfield ,Fatai Zhang ,Nicolai Leymann ,Martin Vigoureux ,Loa Andersson ,Daniele Ceccarelli ,Vishnu Beeram ,Stewart Bryant ,Path Computation Element Discussion List ,Lou Berger ,Tarek Saad ,itu-t-liaison@iab.org,Alvaro Retana Response Contacts: sshew@ciena.com Technical Contacts: Purpose: For comment Body: Attached is Issue 26 of the OTNT SWP, the latest version updated by the SG15 during a correspondence activity after the meeting in July 2019. We would appreciate updates to the material relevant to your SDO Attachment: Optical Transport Networks & Technologies Standardization Work Plan Issue 26, September 2019 Attachments: SG15-LS216 https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-10-02-itu-t-sg-15-teas-ccamp-pals-pce-mpls-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-attachment-1.pdf OTNT_Standardization_WorkPlan-v26 https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2019-10-02-itu-t-sg-15-teas-ccamp-pals-pce-mpls-ls-on-otnt-standardization-work-plan-attachment-2.pdf From nobody Wed Oct 2 17:25:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DCC120013; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <157006234635.8981.6556533959561362211.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 17:25:46 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 00:25:46 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree with Éric and Alvaro. It's not clear what is gained by publishing this as an RFC rather than a research paper, especially given the lack of support in the WG. From nobody Wed Oct 2 19:37:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E76E12006F; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Roman Danyliw via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roman Danyliw Message-ID: <157007026324.8836.12896897726317289264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 19:37:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Roman Danyliw's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 02:37:43 -0000 Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ==[ Summary I am balloting as an ABSTAIN because the primary contribution of this draft appears to be the simulation results. However, these results appear to be already published in greater detail in http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733. I have no commentary on the utility of the CDDR Scenarios found in Section 3. ==[ Details I have reservations about the approach taken in Section 4. As a stand-alone write-up, it insufficiently describes the simulations in question. Furthermore, the content in this section copies verbatim or re-phrases the source material of these simulations from an already published academic paper (without citation). See http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733. In particular: -- The entirely of Section 4.1 (text and diagrams) is a cut-and-paste from Section V.B of the academic paper. -- The simulation results of Section 4.4 in this draft align with the analysis in Section V.C of the academic paper. -- The simulation results of Section 4.5 in this draft align with analysis in Section V.D of the academic paper. Without the benefit of the academic paper cited above, I would have had the following feedback on Section 4: -- Section 4. What use case is being simulated isn’t clear. The text is Section 3.1 states that “Section 4 of this document describes the simulation results of this use case”. However, the topology for the simulation described in Section 4.2 looks different than the one in Figure 1 (of Section 3.1). -- Section 4. A few questions about the simulation design: Only the results were presented. How were the simulations constructed and results evaluated? Section 4.0 states that this section “illustrate[s the] CCDR algorithm”. Where is that algorithm defined? Is that Section 7 of draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip or http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733? What specific algorithms was used to create the contrasting charts in Figures 7 and 8? Section 4.2 said that “[t]he number of links connecting one edge node to the set of core nodes is randomly between 2 to 30, and the total number of links is more than 20000.” Section 4.3 said that “[i]n the CCDR simulation, the dimension of the traffic matrix is 500*500. About 20% links are overloaded when the Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) protocol is used in the network.”, What is the basis of these choices? Are they representative of a given use case? What is the relationship between the Sections 4.2 and 4.3, and the simulation results in Sections 4.4 and 4.5 Additional feedback includes: -- Section 5. The purpose of this section isn’t clear. -- Missing references Section 1. A reference to CCDR is needed. Also, given that CCDR is the basis of the simulation, it needs to be normative. Section 5. A reference is needed for the IEEE document. From nobody Wed Oct 2 21:00:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66115120817; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1XgsenlS4r0; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994B2120802; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [52.74.226.97]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 20160661F6A; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:00:11 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CD1F8491-1E2C-4933-B10C-C7C0034AC831 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:00:07 +0800 Message-Id: <64839D6E-5828-484D-AB08-DE5A038D53BD@tsinghua.org.cn> References: <157007026324.8836.12896897726317289264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <157007026324.8836.12896897726317289264.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Roman Danyliw X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZSFVJS0hLS0tLTUNNTU9OTllXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PjI6Aio5PjkCSkoRTBFLFR8e TwpPCT9VSlVKTkxLS0xOSUpMTU9JVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlOSVVMT1VJSU1VQkxZV1kIAVlBSkNLS0M3Bg++ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d8fc6757d9373kuws20160661f6a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Roman Danyliw's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 04:00:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CD1F8491-1E2C-4933-B10C-C7C0034AC831 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Roman: Thanks for your review. The primary aim of this draft is to illustrate the TE scenarios in Native IP= network, which is the base of other two documents: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (solution draft= ) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04 (PCEP= extension) The simulation results in this draft just want to convince the reader the ad= dition gain with the help of global view and central control, based on the o= ptimization results under the similar topology size and traffic matrix patte= rn as that in the real network. The authors of this draft are overlapping with the authors of the reference p= ublished paper. We have mentioned this reference in the draft. A normative r= eference to it will be added in the upcoming updated version. More responses for your comments are inline. Wish these all can convince you= for the future vote of this draft. Thanks in advance=20 Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:37, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFRoman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > =3D=3D[ Summary > I am balloting as an ABSTAIN because the primary contribution of this draf= t > appears to be the simulation results. However, these results appear to be= > already published in greater detail in > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733. [Aijun Wang]: please see the above explanation. > I have no commentary on the utility of the CDDR Scenarios found in Section= 3. >=20 > =3D=3D[ Details >=20 > I have reservations about the approach taken in Section 4. As a stand-alo= ne > write-up, it insufficiently describes the simulations in question.=20 > Furthermore, the content in this section copies verbatim or re-phrases the= > source material of these simulations from an already published academic pa= per > (without citation). See http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733. In > particular: >=20 > -- The entirely of Section 4.1 (text and diagrams) is a cut-and-paste from= > Section V.B of the academic paper. >=20 > -- The simulation results of Section 4.4 in this draft align with the anal= ysis > in Section V.C of the academic paper. >=20 > -- The simulation results of Section 4.5 in this draft align with analysis= in > Section V.D of the academic paper. [Aijun Wang]: The authors of theses two documentaries are overlapping. We ju= st abstract the simulation process and results from the academic paper. A no= rmative reference will be added later. >=20 > Without the benefit of the academic paper cited above, I would have had th= e > following feedback on Section 4: >=20 > -- Section 4. What use case is being simulated isn=E2=80=99t clear. The t= ext is > Section 3.1 states that =E2=80=9CSection 4 of this document describes the s= imulation > results of this use case=E2=80=9D. However, the topology for the simulati= on described > in Section 4.2 looks different than the one in Figure 1 (of Section 3.1). [Aijun Wang] Figure 6 in section 4.2 is just the details expression of the =E2= =80=9Cdistributed control network=E2=80=9D in Figure 1. >=20 > -- Section 4. A few questions about the simulation design: > Only the results were presented. How were the simulations constructed and= > results evaluated? [Aijun Wang]: The topology and traffic matrix generated process are describe= d in section 4.2 and section 4.3 respectively. Based on these two informatio= n, the algorithm described in the above mentioned paper is run to get the si= mulation results. >=20 > Section 4.0 states that this section =E2=80=9Cillustrate[s the] CCDR algor= ithm=E2=80=9D. Where > is that algorithm defined? Is that Section 7 of draft-ietf-teas-pce-nativ= e-ip > or http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733? [Aijun Wang] In the IEEE paper. >=20 > What specific algorithms was used to create the contrasting charts in Figu= res 7 > and 8? [Aijun Wang]: These are demonstration of the simulation results. The detaile= d algorithm is described in the above mentioned paper. The key idea in the a= lgorithm is that the controller has the global view of the underlying networ= k, thus can operate/controlled the network in more efficient way. >=20 > Section 4.2 said that =E2=80=9C[t]he number of links connecting one edge n= ode to the > set of core nodes is randomly between 2 to 30, and the total number of lin= ks is > more than 20000.=E2=80=9D Section 4.3 said that =E2=80=9C[i]n the CCDR si= mulation, the > dimension of the traffic matrix is 500*500. About 20% links are overloade= d > when the Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) protocol is used in the network.=E2= =80=9D, > What is the basis of these choices? Are they representative of a given us= e > case? [Aijun Wang] The base of these selections is the real network. We have the s= ame size of the network and the similar traffic matrix patterns in our netwo= rk. >=20 > What is the relationship between the Sections 4.2 and 4.3, and the simulat= ion > results in Sections 4.4 and 4.5 [Aijun Wang]: Section 4.2 and 4.3 are input of the simulation process. They a= re the base requirements data. Section 4.4 and 4.5 are the simulation result= s of two key scenarios: E2E QoS assurance and network congestion elimination= . The topology and background traffic are provided in section 4.2 and 4.3 > Additional feedback includes: >=20 > -- Section 5. The purpose of this section isn=E2=80=99t clear. [Aijun Wang]: It is the summary of the aim of this draft.=20 >=20 > -- Missing references > Section 1. A reference to CCDR is needed. Also, given that CCDR is the b= asis > of the simulation, it needs to be normative. [Aijun Wang] Will add in coming version. >=20 > Section 5. A reference is needed for the IEEE document. [Aijun Wang] Yes >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-CD1F8491-1E2C-4933-B10C-C7C0034AC831 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Roman:
Thanks for your review.
The primary aim of this draft is to illustrate the TE scenarios in Nat= ive IP network, which is the base of other two documents:
The simulation results in this draft just want to convince t= he reader the addition gain with the help of global view and central control= , based on the optimization results under the similar topology size and traf= fic matrix pattern as that in the real network.

The= authors of this draft are overlapping with the authors of the reference pub= lished paper. We have mentioned this reference in the draft. A normative ref= erence to it will be added in the upcoming updated version.

More responses for your comments are inline. Wish these all can con= vince you for the future vote of this draft.

Thanks= in advance 

Aijun Wang
C= hina Telecom

On Oc= t 3, 2019, at 10:37, Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> w= rote:

=EF= =BB=BFRoman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain
=
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and re= ply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (= Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ie= tf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more informa= tion about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be= found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tea= s-native-ip-scenarios/



--------------------------------------------------------------= --------
COMMENT:
--------------------------= --------------------------------------------

=3D=3D[ Summary
I am balloting as an ABSTAIN because the p= rimary contribution of this draft
appears to be the simulati= on results.  However, these results appear to be
alread= y published in greater detail in
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/= document/8657733.
[Aijun Wang]: please see the a= bove explanation.
I have= no commentary on the utility of the CDDR Scenarios found in Section 3.

=3D=3D[ Details

I have reservations about the approach taken in Section 4.  As a stan= d-alone
write-up, it insufficiently describes the simulation= s in question.
Furthermore, the content in this section cop= ies verbatim or re-phrases the
source material of these simu= lations from an already published academic paper
(without ci= tation).  See http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733.  In
particular:

-- The entirely of= Section 4.1 (text and diagrams) is a cut-and-paste from
Sec= tion V.B of the academic paper.

-- The simu= lation results of Section 4.4 in this draft align with the analysisin Section V.C of the academic paper.

-- The simulation results of Section 4.5 in this draft align with analysi= s in
Section V.D of the academic paper.
[Aijun Wang]: The authors of theses two documentaries are over= lapping. We just abstract the simulation process and results from the academ= ic paper. A normative reference will be added later.


Without the benefit of t= he academic paper cited above, I would have had the
followin= g feedback on Section 4:

-- Section 4. &nbs= p;What use case is being simulated isn=E2=80=99t clear.  The text is
Section 3.1 states that =E2=80=9CSection 4 of this document de= scribes the simulation
results of this use case=E2=80=9D. &n= bsp;However, the topology for the simulation described
in Se= ction 4.2 looks different than the one in Figure 1 (of Section 3.1).<= br>

[Aijun Wang] Figure 6 in section 4.2 is= just the details expression of the =E2=80=9Cdistributed control network=E2=80= =9D in Figure 1.
=
-- Section 4.  A few questions about the simulation design:
Only the results were presented.  How were the simulatio= ns constructed and
results evaluated?
[Aijun Wang]: The topology and traffic matrix generated process are d= escribed in section 4.2 and section 4.3 respectively. Based on these two inf= ormation, the algorithm described in the above mentioned paper is run to get= the simulation results.

Section 4.0 states that this section =E2=80=9Cillus= trate[s the] CCDR algorithm=E2=80=9D.  Where
is that al= gorithm defined?  Is that Section 7 of draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip
or http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8657733?
[Aijun Wang] In the IEEE paper.
=

What specific algorithms was used to= create the contrasting charts in Figures 7
and 8?
[Aijun Wang]: These are demonstration of the simulation r= esults. The detailed algorithm is described in the above mentioned paper. Th= e key idea in the algorithm is that the controller has the global view of th= e underlying network, thus can operate/controlled the network in more effici= ent way.

Section 4.2 said that =E2=80=9C[t]he number of links connecting one edge n= ode to the
set of core nodes is randomly between 2 to 30, an= d the total number of links is
more than 20000.=E2=80=9D &nb= sp;Section 4.3 said that =E2=80=9C[i]n the CCDR simulation, the
dimension of the traffic matrix is 500*500.  About 20% links are ov= erloaded
when the Open Shortest Path First (OSPF) protocol i= s used in the network.=E2=80=9D,
What is the basis of these c= hoices?  Are they representative of a given use
case?

[Aijun Wang] The base of these se= lections is the real network. We have the same size of the network and the s= imilar traffic matrix patterns in our network.
=

What is the relationship between the= Sections 4.2 and 4.3, and the simulation
results in Section= s 4.4 and 4.5

[Aijun Wang]: Section 4.2 and= 4.3 are input of the simulation process. They are the base requirements dat= a. Section 4.4 and 4.5 are the simulation results of two key scenarios: E2E Q= oS assurance and network congestion elimination. The topology and background= traffic are provided in section 4.2 and 4.3

Additional feedback includes:
=
-- Section 5.  The purpose of this section isn=E2=80=99= t clear.

[Aijun Wang]: It i= s the summary of the aim of this draft. 


-- Missing referencesSection 1.  A reference to CCDR is needed.  Also, given tha= t CCDR is the basis
of the simulation, it needs to be normat= ive.

[Aijun Wang] Will add i= n coming version.

=
Section 5.  A reference is needed for the IEEE documen= t.

[Aijun Wang] Yes


= --Apple-Mail-CD1F8491-1E2C-4933-B10C-C7C0034AC831-- From nobody Wed Oct 2 21:30:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E54120825; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:30:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tV-mMUc70Fb8; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m177134.mail.qiye.163.com (m177134.mail.qiye.163.com [123.58.177.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B66A120835; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 21:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [52.74.226.97]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 8EAA1662028; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:30:13 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D4530111-5BFF-4260-AF73-55003C962C9D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <4747687D-42CB-4132-935B-6F7C8E2868D4@tsinghua.org.cn> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:30:09 +0800 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org To: Alissa Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUlXWQgYFAkeWUFZTVVJQkhCQkJNTEpCSE1LT1lXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6MC46DCo*HTkBP0oLHw8wGEod LyxPFAlVSlVKTkxLS0xMS0pCSUhLVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlOSVVMT1VJSU1VQkxZV1kIAVlBTk1JTjcG X-HM-Tid: 0a6d8fe1f6549373kuws8eaa1662028 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Alissa Cooper's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 04:30:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D4530111-5BFF-4260-AF73-55003C962C9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFHi, Alissa: Thanks for your review. Will you have a look at my responses mail to Eric(https://mailarchive.ietf.o= rg/arch/msg/teas/Rhuq8ANBqi5rTUgGaq2XsaH34U4) And=20 Roman(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/IgJH9EZb0I9nx4TyaGEBROEiGos= )? Wish these explanations can convince you the future vote. We will update the new version of this draft in coming time. Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 08:25, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > =EF=BB=BFAlissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I agree with =C3=89ric and Alvaro. It's not clear what is gained by publis= hing this > as an RFC rather than a research paper, especially given the lack of suppo= rt in > the WG. --Apple-Mail-D4530111-5BFF-4260-AF73-55003C962C9D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BFHi, Alissa:
Thanks= for your review.
Will you have a look at my responses mail to Eri= c(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/Rhuq8ANBqi5rTUgGaq2XsaH3= 4U4)
And 

Wish these explanations can convince you the future vote.
We wil= l update the new version of this draft in coming time.

<= div>Thanks in advance.

Aijun Wang
China Telecom<= /div>

On Oct 3, 2019, at= 08:25, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
=EF=BB=BFAlissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free= to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/ie= sg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information abou= t IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found he= re:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-= ip-scenarios/



<= span>----------------------------------------------------------------------<= /span>
COMMENT:
-----------------------------------= -----------------------------------

I agree= with =C3=89ric and Alvaro. It's not clear what is gained by publishing this=
as an RFC rather than a research paper, especially given th= e lack of support in
the WG.



= --Apple-Mail-D4530111-5BFF-4260-AF73-55003C962C9D-- From nobody Wed Oct 2 22:15:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0A7120227; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 22:15:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <157007970187.8856.4833550865466096492.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 22:15:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 05:15:02 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I have two points for discussion: (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) Section 3.1 I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based Application" in neither of the named clouds? Section 3.2 Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that could be called MANs that use a different topology. Section 4.1 nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. Section 4.2 Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! Section 4.3 The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of topology. [...] I don't know how to interpret this statement. It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with real-world traffic patterns. From nobody Thu Oct 3 01:10:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 814B512089F; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybtRJMjvuOuO; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m177134.mail.qiye.163.com (m177134.mail.qiye.163.com [123.58.177.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F39120825; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [18.136.235.223]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 699286612EE; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:10:20 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-474A86B2-1572-4B23-86E0-8ACF3F8034DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:10:16 +0800 Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUlXWQgYFAkeWUFZTVVISkxCQkJDSEJMQ0lMSllXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PlE6PBw5ATlNK0oVDTo9QzYf NhcKChhVSlVKTkxLS0JLSUlMSkpNVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKQ1VKSE1VSUhOVUlJSFlXWQgBWUFJSUhLSDcG X-HM-Tid: 0a6d90ab7b939373kuws699286612ee Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 08:10:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail-474A86B2-1572-4B23-86E0-8ACF3F8034DA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF =EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin: Thanks for your review. On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Native= IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simulati= on results just demonstrated the applicability of central control under the g= lobal view. This document is the base document of other two drafts: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution Draft= ) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PCEP e= xtension) There are currently at least three different solutions trying to accomplish t= he TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation draft i= s just the start points of these documents. More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for the f= uture vote. Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I have two points for discussion: >=20 > (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for > standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by > abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether > it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient > document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. >=20 [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from opera= tors, research university and the vendor. The style of the document maybe sl= ight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it same a= s others: give some useful information to the community based on our efforts= . Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. > (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being > all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an > applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment > for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to > indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some > interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is > appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document. T= he simulation part of this document just want to convince the reader the add= ition gain of central control under the global view. The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft. >=20 > (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and > the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of > where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they > are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all abstraction f= rom our real network deployment. >=20 > (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to > engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall > efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and > apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the > protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the abov= e mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, th= is draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results. >=20 > (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology > shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, > but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima > that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected > for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would > the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, > such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic > spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility > does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network condition= s via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimiz= ation process for the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need onl= y tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance th= e central controller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle the changeable environme= nt. The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such desc= riptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considerations=E2= =80=9D part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#se= ction-9) =20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes > get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about > the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) >=20 [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It is= not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple BGP s= ession and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP= protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1) > Section 3.1 >=20 > I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private > Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the > edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based > Application" in neither of the named clouds? >=20 [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Applica= tion=E2=80=9D are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can deem these sites as the concepts d= escribed in traditional VPN deployment scenarios. > Section 3.2 >=20 > Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a > star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices >=20 > "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that > could be called MANs that use a different topology. >=20 [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. > Section 4.1 >=20 > nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. >=20 > Section 4.2 >=20 > Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical > deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the re= asons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 >=20 > Section 4.3 >=20 > The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of > topology. [...] >=20 > I don't know how to interpret this statement. > It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat > arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with > real-world traffic patterns. >=20 [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar with= the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the rob= ustness of the simulation process. =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-474A86B2-1572-4B23-86E0-8ACF3F8034DA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB= =BF= Hi, Benjamin:
Thanks for your review.

On summar= y, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Native IP netwo= rk, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simulation result= s just demonstrated the applicability of central control under the global vi= ew.
This document is the base document of other two drafts:
<= div>

https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PCEP extension)

There are currently at least three different solution= s trying to accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenari= os and simulation draft is just the start points of these documents.

More details responses are inline below. Wish they can con= vince you for the future vote.

Thanks in advance.

Aijun Wang
China Tel= ecom

On Oct 3, 201= 9, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
=EF=BB=BF= Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position fordraft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply t= o all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel= free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)

Please refer to https://www.ietf.o= rg/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information= about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.

=
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be fou= nd here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-na= tive-ip-scenarios/


=
------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
DISCUSS:
------------------------------= ----------------------------------------

I h= ave two points for discussion:

(1) If this d= ocument was subject to the approval requirements for
standar= ds action, it would basically be suffering from "death by
ab= stain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether=
it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenie= nt
document-action requirements would otherwise let it go fo= rward.

[Aijun Wang]: This= document is the cooperation results of authors from operators, research uni= versity and the vendor. The style of the document maybe slight different fro= m the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it same as others: give som= e useful information to the community based on our efforts.
Wish t= he relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer.
=
(2) The document s= eems incomplete to me.  It has some aspects of being
al= l/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an
applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment
for any of them.  To be clear, there is enough in the do= cument to
indicate that the topic merits further work, and t= here are some
interesting results, but I'm not sure that pub= lication as an RFC is
appropriate for this document in this f= orm.  Specifically:
[Aijun Wang] It i= s mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document. The simulation par= t of this document just want to convince the reader the addition gain of cen= tral control under the global view.
The architecture/solutions con= tents is in above mentioned solutions draft.


(2a) use-cases: we se= e the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and
the simulat= ed network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of
= where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they=
are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage.<= br>

[Aijun Wang]: The star topology an= d simulated topology are all abstraction from our real network deployment.

(2= b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE toengineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall
efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be invol= ved and
apply the computed paths or what requirements will n= eed to be met by the
protocols and components used to instan= tiate the architecture

[Aij= un Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the above me= ntioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, this d= raft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results.

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

(2c) applic= ability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology
shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison,
but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a bro= ad maxima
that is robust to environmental variations.  = Is the alternative selected
for comparison an appropriate on= e for the cases in question?  How would
the propsal rea= ct in the face of changes in the environment it runs in,
suc= h as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic<= br>spikes?  What timescale can it react in and what level of visi= bility
does the PCE need into current conditions in order to= be reliable?

[Aijun Wang] The= SDN controller get the overall underlying network conditions via BGP-LS/SNM= P/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimization process fo= r the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need only tens of second= s. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance the central contro= ller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle the changeable environment.
The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can a= dd such descriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Consi= derations=E2=80=9D part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-= pce-native-ip-04#section-9)
  

-----------------------------= -----------------------------------------
COMMENT:---------------------------------------------------------------------= -

If we're using a PCE in a native IP netwo= rk, how do the computed routes
get applied; are we using sou= rce routing or just being careful about
the prefixes in use?=  (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?)
=

[Aijun Wang] These contents are i= n the above mentioned solution draft. It is not using the current source rou= ting, but the combination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of th= e path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is dis= cussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1)

=

Section 3.1

I don't understand what Figure 1 is intendin= g to convey.  Are "Private
Cloud Site" and "Public Clou= d Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the
edge of the dis= tributed control network?  Why is the "Cloud Based
Appl= ication" in neither of the named clouds?


[Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of t= he =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Application=E2=80=9D are located at the =E2=80=9CPri= vate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can de= em these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment scena= rios.

Section 3.2<= /span>

  Network topology within a Metr= o Area Network (MAN) is generally in a
  star mod= e as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices
=
"Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs?  I know of th= ings that
could be called MANs that use a different topology= .

[Aijun Wang]: In commer= cial ISP.

Section 4= .1

nit: several sentences are missing space= s after the full stop.

[Aijun Wa= ng] Will correct them in update version.

Section 4.2

Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical
<= span>deployments?  That's a lot of links not going to customers!=

[Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can a= lso connects the customers. That is the reasons that the traffic matrix is 5= 00*500, not 100*100


Section 4.3

  = ;The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of
  topology.  [...]

I don= 't know how to interpret this statement.
It does sound like t= he traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat
arbitrary fashi= on, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with
real-world= traffic patterns.

[Aijun= Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar with the r= eal network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the robustnes= s of the simulation process.  


__________________________________________= _____
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
= --Apple-Mail-474A86B2-1572-4B23-86E0-8ACF3F8034DA-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 01:39:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B45120232 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qPGSgeDP29tN for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1668912011E for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 01:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id u184so1544857qkd.4 for ; Thu, 03 Oct 2019 01:39:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WTPgPnYrGTuh2RYdWwH7NMgBJlg181fS9gdCaSHIR0o=; b=QUYSh5hPn7XNG9qOgF//ymbIVJ1Q8DWJatlUPoG31Un4fHyAelMp/aUN4kkJxfE0L2 g02dOnuskPY5UosQo91/erU20pcmSTa6kqr5EivG0EH5E7vJVVSxyal2LyrZU5WY8Oa+ ReQIe5uEKSjAM4umgwz6s0IVceXAZV7lgcxDG1MqoYdm7iGJz82uG3w8oRLIm3a5Z3aP fMoMz9Ah3BO4OBsUmPyQ24OubfhEoPCnmQa50izqmkRhRYgRPRWk4BC0FykJclIUSYKw Kd7/fqttQzsXwFkK27S23agKbMm+zTIkU06rNXsyr7R6tL4B1LIla1jATtYrWpl2AQJl LsZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WTPgPnYrGTuh2RYdWwH7NMgBJlg181fS9gdCaSHIR0o=; b=K9X76L0Aq5wjjZF/ZdTPOM/u5iOP8ASDliKp1Mw114Yp/e1W08Mf6DlrIfP6pVkea7 N4ks1AfA6WsdjQzZt/m+rbHp7Dwh5p0Q0pR745pUBqF0oPUt6XOynLgY0v87blpXT8h4 Pw8Z12LY1/c7Cl2u1Ld7cviHuiIMqQL6dq5I933VAmB0KMlenHufmAplL2uxNREmloIr //bRY0DijXr2WsT1GmYHuvkQO5lYZFLCZfBPnBS1kldPZF56zXrx5zjYP3CdtIEfCbbQ gwdPogxeL+5GiYIHjbw+vGu/2DzcmZSe+hAE6XWJsON9C25K3HDxGsR/tc2rs4BJIeke 3YpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVzThEOLa9IRD/6ZENvnMijnUc7JeoGmAvGm+OysWQM0c4TJfDE epS9JCkXs5YcAyoh6//RFHD4bZq08yaJiY7vSVYypg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzXk+kc5/Mzr5u4Clcape1z3u8cINjA/UX7OpovmCxzgG8XK+t9DI9Kt5aZNvwOkXBlDW0/FPrmlj89RGCSxVQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr3088567qkd.219.1570091956980; Thu, 03 Oct 2019 01:39:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:39:06 +0200 Message-ID: To: Aijun Wang Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , teas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c608f0593fd85ca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 08:39:21 -0000 --0000000000005c608f0593fd85ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, I think it is useful informational document. However I would remove PCE elements from it and turned it into requirements document perhaps also adding few more real life deployment scenarios where use of end to end IP TE is very important. Many thx, R. On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang wrote: > =EF=BB=BF > =EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin: > Thanks for your review. > > On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in > Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The > simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central control > under the global view. > This document is the base document of other two drafts: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution > Draft) > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04 > = (PCEP > extension) > > There are currently at least three different solutions trying to > accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and > simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. > > More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for > the future vote. > > Thanks in advance. > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have two points for discussion: > > (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for > standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by > abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether > it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient > document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. > > [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from > operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document > maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim o= f > it same as others: give some useful information to the community based on > our efforts. > Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. > > (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being > all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an > applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment > for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to > indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some > interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is > appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: > > [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document= . > The simulation part of this document just want to convince the reader the > addition gain of central control under the global view. > The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft= . > > > (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and > the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of > where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they > are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. > > > [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all abstractio= n > from our real network deployment. > > > (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to > engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall > efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and > apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the > protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture > > > [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the > above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in > previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation > results. > > > (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology > shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, > but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima > that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected > for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would > the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, > such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic > spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility > does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? > > [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network > conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. > The optimization process for the simulated complex topology and traffic > matrix need only tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is > easy to enhance the central controller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle the > changeable environment. > > The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such > descriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considerat= ions=E2=80=9D > part.( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9) > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes > get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about > the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) > > > [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It > is not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple > BGP session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help > of PCEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution > draft( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1) > > > > Section 3.1 > > I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private > Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the > edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based > Application" in neither of the named clouds? > > > [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Appl= ication=E2=80=9D > are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPubl= ic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can > deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment > scenarios. > > Section 3.2 > > Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a > star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices > > "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that > could be called MANs that use a different topology.. > > [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. > > Section 4..1 > > nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. > > > [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. > > > Section 4.2 > > Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical > deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! > > > [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the > reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 > > > Section 4.3 > > The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of > topology. [...] > > I don't know how to interpret this statement. > It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat > arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with > real-world traffic patterns. > > [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar > with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate > the robustness of the simulation process. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000005c608f0593fd85ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

I think it is useful informational= document.=C2=A0

However I would remove PCE elemen= ts from it and turned it into requirements document perhaps also adding few= more real life deployment scenarios where use of end to end IP TE is very= =C2=A0important.

Many thx,
R.
=




On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 = at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang <wan= gaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin:
Thanks for your review.

<= /div>
On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for T= E in Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. = The simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central contr= ol under the global view.
This document is the base document of o= ther two drafts:

=

There are currently at least three different solutions trying = to accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and s= imulation draft is just the start points of these documents.

=
More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince = you for the future vote.

Thanks in advance.
<= div>
Aijun Wang
China Telecom=

On Oct 3, 2019, = at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFBenjamin K= aduk has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ie= tf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss

Wh= en responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<= br>email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut= this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.iet= f.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more inf= ormation about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
<= br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, = can be found here:
https://datatra= cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/
=


------------------------= ----------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
--------------------------------------------------------------= --------

I have two points for discussion:=

(1) If this document was subject to the a= pproval requirements for
standards action, it would basical= ly be suffering from "death by
abstain"; this see= ms like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether
it ma= kes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient
<= span>document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward.=

[Aijun Wang]: This document is= the cooperation results of authors from operators, research university and= the vendor. The style of the document maybe slight different from the trad= itional IETF documents, but the aim of it same as others: give some useful = information to the community based on our efforts.
Wish the relev= ant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer.

(2) The document seems = incomplete to me.=C2=A0 It has some aspects of being
all/an= y of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an
applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment
for any of them.=C2=A0 To be clear, there is enough in the doc= ument to
indicate that the topic merits further work, and t= here are some
interesting results, but I'm not sure tha= t publication as an RFC is
appropriate for this document in= this form.=C2=A0 Specifically:
[Aijun Wa= ng] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document. The simul= ation part of this document just want to convince the reader the addition g= ain of central control under the global view.
The architecture/so= lutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft.


(2a) use= -cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and
the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of
where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how co= mmon they
are, and how closely the simulation reflects actu= al usage.

[Aijun Wang]: Th= e star topology and simulated topology are all abstraction from our real ne= twork deployment.


(2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given (&q= uot;use a PCE to
engineer some of the IP traffic on a netwo= rk and improve overall
efficiency"), but we don't = see much about how PCCs will be involved and
apply the comp= uted paths or what requirements will need to be met by the
= protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture

[Aijun Wang]: The above contents that y= ou concerned is described in the above mentioned solution and PCEP extensio= n drafts. As explained in previous, this draft focus only the overall scena= rios and the simulation results.


(2c) applicability: we see some scenarios = where the proposed technology
shows drastic improvement ove= r the alternative selected for comparison,
but there is lit= tle to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima
th= at is robust to environmental variations.=C2=A0 Is the alternative selected=
for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in questio= n?=C2=A0 How would
the propsal react in the face of changes= in the environment it runs in,
such as link or node failur= e, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic
spikes?=C2=A0 = What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility
does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable?<= br>
[Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get = the overall underlying network conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol = in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimization process for the simulated co= mplex topology and traffic matrix need only tens of seconds. For further st= rict requirements, it is easy to enhance the central controller=E2=80=99s c= apability to tackle the changeable environment.

Th= e above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such descr= iptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considerations=E2= =80=9D part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie= tf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9)
=C2=A0=C2=A0

------------------= ----------------------------------------------------
COMMEN= T:
--------------------------------------------------------= --------------

If we're using a PCE in= a native IP network, how do the computed routes
get applie= d; are we using source routing or just being careful about
= the prefixes in use? =C2=A0(Are there going to be any scaling concerns?)


[Aijun Wang= ] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It is not using= the current source routing, but the combination of multiple BGP session an= d the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protoco= l. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip= -04#section-9.1)



Section 3.1

I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey.=C2=A0 Are = "Private
Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site&= quot; supposed to be separate boxes on the
edge of the dist= ributed control network?=C2=A0 Why is the "Cloud Based
Application" in neither of the named clouds?
<= br>

[Aijun Wang]: The source and dest= ination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Application=E2=80=9D are located at the= =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80= =9D. You can deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN = deployment scenarios.

<= span>Section 3.2

=C2=A0=C2=A0Network topo= logy within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a
= =C2=A0=C2=A0star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices

"Generally" within what scope, com= mercial ISPs?=C2=A0 I know of things that
could be called M= ANs that use a different topology..

[Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP.

Section 4..1

n= it: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop.

[Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update ver= sion.

= Section 4.2

Is a fully-linked core of 100 = nodes representative of typical
deployments?=C2=A0 That'= ;s a lot of links not going to customers!

[Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customer= s. That is the reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100

Sect= ion 4.3

=C2=A0=C2=A0The traffic matrix is= generated based on the link capacity of
=C2=A0=C2=A0topol= ogy. =C2=A0[...]

I don't know how to i= nterpret this statement.
It does sound like the traffic mat= rix is generated in a somewhat
arbitrary fashion, with no s= tated effort to keep it aligned with
real-world traffic pat= terns.

[Aijun Wang] We j= ust keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar with the real networ= k. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the robustness of the = simulation process. =C2=A0


_______________________________________________<= /span>
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--0000000000005c608f0593fd85ca-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 02:43:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E607612090F; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:42:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <157009577692.16196.1919070784751380511.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 02:42:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 09:43:05 -0000 Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I also think IESG and the WG really should have a discussion if this document should be published at all. In addition to the points raised by Benjamin I want to add my view to this. The document in its current form appear to be outside of TEAS Charter. This document is none of the several things TEAS is approved to work with. As Benjamin enumerates so well the document is also a very poor support or architecture document. Which is why I would argue that it fully outside of the TEAS charter as neither a main objective of the WG or a support document. Even if fixed to be a better support document, I still think the WG should consider its charter and the IESG statement on support documents: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-documents/ and ask themselves if that is really something that is worth publishing. From nobody Thu Oct 3 02:43:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB1B1200D5; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:43:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id awfrNfphz_39; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA091200C5; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [18.136.235.223]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id DFDCC661F07; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:43:10 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-82EFEF9D-8527-4638-99A5-5AFDC8D14AB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:43:03 +0800 Message-Id: <58CDA7FD-F320-41A2-A374-677354CAE8E1@tsinghua.org.cn> References: Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , teas@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZSFVDSEpLS0tISUNLTUhCTVlXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6NEk6TSo6EjkDN0o*HQlCLQpO Hh8aCxNVSlVKTkxLS0JOQ0tNQkxCVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKQ1VKSE1VSUhOVUlJSFlXWQgBWUFJTEhCTzcG X-HM-Tid: 0a6d91007b479373kuwsdfdcc661f07 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 09:43:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail-82EFEF9D-8527-4638-99A5-5AFDC8D14AB5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert: Thanks for your comments. With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologies within the network, th= e necessity of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the traditional M= PLS TE solutions. Current draft illustrates the intra-domain and inter-domain TE scenarios. Th= e solutions that can meet these scenarios/requirements in one unique approa= ch will be more easily deployed in the network. The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the de= scriptions of it. But without the help of SDN controller and the global view= of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve the E2E QoS assur= ance and improve the network efficiency. Would you like to provide some text for what you want to solve but not cover= ed by this document? Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 3, 2019, at 16:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > All, >=20 > I think it is useful informational document.=20 >=20 > However I would remove PCE elements from it and turned it into requirement= s document perhaps also adding few more real life deployment scenarios where= use of end to end IP TE is very important. >=20 > Many thx, > R. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang wr= ote: >> =EF=BB=BF >> =EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin: >> Thanks for your review. >>=20 >> On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Nat= ive IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simul= ation results just demonstrated the applicability of central control under t= he global view. >> This document is the base document of other two drafts: >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution Dr= aft) >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PC= EP extension) >>=20 >> There are currently at least three different solutions trying to accompli= sh the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation dr= aft is just the start points of these documents. >>=20 >> More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for t= he future vote. >>=20 >> Thanks in advance. >>=20 >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >>=20 >>>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss >>>=20 >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> I have two points for discussion: >>>=20 >>> (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for >>> standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by >>> abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether >>> it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient >>> document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. >>>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from op= erators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document maybe= slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it sam= e as others: give some useful information to the community based on our effo= rts. >> Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. >>=20 >>> (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being >>> all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an >>> applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment >>> for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to >>> indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some >>> interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is >>> appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: >> [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document= . The simulation part of this document just want to convince the reader the a= ddition gain of central control under the global view. >> The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft= . >>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and >>> the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of >>> where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they >>> are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all abstractio= n from our real network deployment. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to >>> engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall >>> efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and >>> apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the= >>> protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the a= bove mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous,= this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology >>> shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, >>> but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima= >>> that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected= >>> for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would >>> the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, >>> such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic >>> spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility >>> does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? >>>=20 >> [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network condit= ions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The opti= mization process for the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need o= nly tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance t= he central controller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle the changeable environm= ent. >>=20 >> The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such d= escriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considerations= =E2=80=9D part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04= #section-9) >> =20 >>>=20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> COMMENT: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes >>> get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about >>> the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) >>>=20 >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It= is not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple BG= P session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help of P= CEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> Section 3.1 >>>=20 >>> I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private >>> Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the= >>> edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based >>> Application" in neither of the named clouds? >>>=20 >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Appl= ication=E2=80=9D are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and= =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can deem these sites as the concep= ts described in traditional VPN deployment scenarios. >>=20 >>> Section 3.2 >>>=20 >>> Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a >>> star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices >>>=20 >>> "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that >>> could be called MANs that use a different topology.. >>>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. >>=20 >>> Section 4..1 >>>=20 >>> nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. >>>=20 >>> Section 4.2 >>>=20 >>> Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical >>> deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! >>=20 >> [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the= reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Section 4.3 >>>=20 >>> The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of >>> topology. [...] >>>=20 >>> I don't know how to interpret this statement. >>> It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat >>> arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with >>> real-world traffic patterns. >>>=20 >> [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar w= ith the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the r= obustness of the simulation process. =20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-82EFEF9D-8527-4638-99A5-5AFDC8D14AB5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert:

Thanks for y= our comments.
With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologie= s within the network, the necessity of IP TE solutions will be more attracti= ve than the traditional MPLS TE solutions.
Current draft illustrat= es the intra-domain and inter-domain TE scenarios. The solutions that can me= et these scenarios/requirements  in one unique approach will be more ea= sily deployed in the network.

The PCE is just the r= epresentative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the descriptions of it. But= without the help of SDN controller and the global view of underlying networ= k, it is almost impossible to achieve the E2E QoS assurance and improve the n= etwork efficiency.

Would you like to provide some t= ext for what you want to solve but not covered by this document?
<= br>
Thanks in advance.

Aijun WangChina Telecom

O= n Oct 3, 2019, at 16:39, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
<= br>
=EF=BB=BFAll,

I think it is useful informational do= cument. 

However I would remove PCE elements f= rom it and turned it into requirements document perhaps also adding few more= real life deployment scenarios where use of end to end IP TE is very i= mportant.

Many thx,
R.





On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 A= M Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsin= ghua.org.cn> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB=BF= Hi, Benjamin:
Thanks for your review.

On summar= y, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Native IP netwo= rk, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simulation result= s just demonstrated the applicability of central control under the global vi= ew.
This document is the base document of other two drafts:
<= div>


There are curren= tly at least three different solutions trying to accomplish the TE necessiti= es in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation draft is just the sta= rt points of these documents.

More details response= s are inline below. Wish they can convince you for the future vote.

Thanks in advance.

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatra= cker <noreply@ietf.= org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot po= sition for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject lin= e intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To= and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph= , however.)


Please refer t= o https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html<= /span>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT position= s.


The document, along wit= h other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenario= s/



--= --------------------------------------------------------------------<= br>DISCUSS:
------------------------------------------= ----------------------------

I have two poi= nts for discussion:

(1) If this document wa= s subject to the approval requirements for
standards action,= it would basically be suffering from "death by
abstain"; th= is seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether
= it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient<= br>document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward.

[Aijun Wang]: This document i= s the cooperation results of authors from operators, research university and= the vendor. The style of the document maybe slight different from the tradi= tional IETF documents, but the aim of it same as others: give some useful in= formation to the community based on our efforts.
Wish the relevant= responses and explanations can convince the reviewer.

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
(2) The document seems incom= plete to me.  It has some aspects of being
all/any of a= use-cases document, an architecture document, and an
applic= ability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment
<= span>for any of them.  To be clear, there is enough in the document to<= /span>
indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are s= ome
interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication a= s an RFC is
appropriate for this document in this form. = ; Specifically:
[Aijun Wang] It is mainly o= ne native IP TE scenarios description document. The simulation part of this d= ocument just want to convince the reader the addition gain of central contro= l under the global view.
The architecture/solutions contents is in= above mentioned solutions draft.


(2a) use-cases: we see the examp= les of star topology with BRAS/SR and
the simulated network i= n Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of
where these (= or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they
are= , and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage.

[Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated t= opology are all abstraction from our real network deployment.


(2b) architectu= re: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to
engine= er some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall
e= fficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and
apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met= by the
protocols and components used to instantiate the arc= hitecture

[Aijun Wang]: The= above contents that you concerned is described in the above mentioned solut= ion and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, this draft focus on= ly the overall scenarios and the simulation results.


(2c) applicability: we s= ee some scenarios where the proposed technology
shows drasti= c improvement over the alternative selected for comparison,
= but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima
that is robust to environmental variations.  Is the altern= ative selected
for comparison an appropriate one for the cas= es in question?  How would
the propsal react in the fac= e of changes in the environment it runs in,
such as link or n= ode failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic
spike= s?  What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility<= br>does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable?<= /span>

[Aijun Wang] The SDN controlle= r get the overall underlying network conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow prot= ocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimization process for the simulate= d complex topology and traffic matrix need only tens of seconds. For further= strict requirements, it is easy to enhance the central controller=E2=80=99s= capability to tackle the changeable environment.

T= he above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such descr= iptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considerations=E2=80= =9D part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-te= as-pce-native-ip-04#section-9)
  

-------------------------= ---------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

If we're using a PCE in a native IP n= etwork, how do the computed routes
get applied; are we using= source routing or just being careful about
the prefixes in u= se?  (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?)


[Aijun Wang] These contents ar= e in the above mentioned solution draft. It is not using the current source r= outing, but the combination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of t= he path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is di= scussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1)
<= div>


= Section 3.1

I don't understand what Fi= gure 1 is intending to convey.  Are "Private
Cloud Site= " and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the
edge of the distributed control network?  Why is the "Cloud Based
Application" in neither of the named clouds?
<= /span>

[Aijun Wang]: The source an= d destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Application=E2=80=9D are located a= t the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2= =80=9D. You can deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VP= N deployment scenarios.

= Section 3.2

  Network topo= logy within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a
&n= bsp; star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices

"Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs?&= nbsp; I know of things that
could be called MANs that use a d= ifferent topology..

[Aiju= n Wang]: In commercial ISP.

Section 4..1

nit: several sentenc= es are missing spaces after the full stop.

[Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version.

Section 4.2
<= span>
Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of t= ypical
deployments?  That's a lot of links not going to= customers!

[Aijun Wang]: T= he core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the reasons that the t= raffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100


Section 4.3

=   The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacit= y of
  topology.  [...]

I don't know how to interpret this statement.
I= t does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat
arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with<= br>real-world traffic patterns.

[Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is= similar with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certif= icate the robustness of the simulation process.  


_______________________= ________________________
Teas mailing list
<= a href=3D"mailto:Teas@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Teas@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________=
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
= --Apple-Mail-82EFEF9D-8527-4638-99A5-5AFDC8D14AB5-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 02:53:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B78120801 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GyUNg3zClJE8 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76723120232 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.1.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id x939qqnZ011971 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:53:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1570096384; x=1570182784; i=@elandsys.com; bh=jCZfhEHThgXJTot/N96J8wP6VaqotYkQTGPS32QVuN8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=V4jd0b6HTkxac6P+UKJgueMyHKmG49J/wolvDRCehpAepXe9XagIDBnAYRz6+oB1p eaMOKnapzgZdRTCEbnRjtL9vWkXBHpmA7VIhBarUK63EA/0DHFMKj7kVTE2y5VVr44 aso/9mdK+0rkkhypecdXYuNCuk+qNX/Y9RhRpdSM= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20191003024334.0bf0c9b8@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 02:52:30 -0700 To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , teas@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20190928043919.0e4ada60@elandnews.com> <556B5AC9-3EE6-4528-BAFE-3ECBE52FB118@tsinghua.org.cn> <6.2.5.6.2.20190928074204.0be1c6b0@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Last Call: (Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in Native IP Network) to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 09:53:09 -0000 Hi Deborah, Thank you for the response. At 11:34 AM 30-09-2019, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A wrote: >So, "uses" is explicit in the charter. Why "use document" is not >mentioned explicitly in the milestone for the native IP work? In the >routing area, we usually progress by doing use scenarios, >requirements, generic architecture, solutions. Sometimes the use >scenarios are part of the requirements or a framework document. >Sometimes stand alone e.g. a quick scan of other groups: RFC6965, >RFC8355, RFC8403, RFC8578. I understand some Areas in IETF do not >publish Informational documents, do not find them "useful". In the >routing area, we do find them "useful". We value very much when >operators provide information on their planned use scenarios. It is >a decision of the working group and the AD to progress. This >document does have working group consensus to publish. The issue which I raised was not about the category. I understand that the Routing Area works differently from the area I am familiar with as I used to go through the drafts from all the areas before IESG evaluation. >You ask - is there more than one vendor interested? For this type of >document, I think the interest of more than one operator is key. For >a solution document, yes, more than one vendor should be supporting. >The operators by bringing it to IETF are showing their interest for >a standard solution, it now will be for the vendors to show >interest. Other operators did not raise concerns with the document. >It is a product of the working group. Ok. >I noted your concern with the word "requirements" in the abstract. >The sentence is "Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) >performance assurance are emerging within the service provider >network." This is not about the document providing "requirements" - >as you say the title and document does not have "requirements". This is I noticed that the text in the Abstract might need some editing. It can be fixed when the document goes through the editorial process. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Thu Oct 3 02:56:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D4E120232; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7Lf8fEkraOf; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m177134.mail.qiye.163.com (m177134.mail.qiye.163.com [123.58.177.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0447120115; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 02:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.129.244.78] (unknown [1.68.2.4]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 7CD1F6612E6; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:56:18 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8D24CE95-9F26-49A6-86C4-44E96B9544C0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <29EC9D4E-7491-456F-B358-B19CABB6AE6D@tsinghua.org.cn> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:56:17 +0800 To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUlXWQgYFAkeWUFZTVVLTU5CQkJCQ09MT0pJSllXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PBg6AQw4KjkDP0oSQggwNigU HjMaCg5VSlVKTkxLS0JNTkNIQ0JIVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKVU1DVUlVT1lXWQgBWUFMQkNMNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d910c7fd39373kuws7cd1f6612e6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 09:56:30 -0000 --Apple-Mail-8D24CE95-9F26-49A6-86C4-44E96B9544C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFHi, Magnus: Thanks for your review. For your consideration, would you like to read the responses from Deborah at= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/vKTyDcXfeVMhNp5v9JyJhq-u0hc in t= his topic? Anyway, it is not one sole document for descriptions the scenarios and simul= ation results. It is the base document of others two documents. I have expre= ssed such information in several responses(for example the responses to Benj= amin https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/YpIuzQg4oYT--BWhyeQfAj9YGx4 = and wish they can also convince you for future vote. Aijun Wang China Telecom >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 17:43, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker wrote: > =EF=BB=BFMagnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I also think IESG and the WG really should have a discussion if this docum= ent > should be published at all. In addition to the points raised by Benjamin I= want > to add my view to this. >=20 > The document in its current form appear to be outside of TEAS Charter. Thi= s > document is none of the several things TEAS is approved to work with. As > Benjamin enumerates so well the document is also a very poor support or > architecture document. Which is why I would argue that it fully outside of= the > TEAS charter as neither a main objective of the WG or a support document. >=20 > Even if fixed to be a better support document, I still think the WG should= > consider its charter and the IESG statement on support documents: > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-documents/ and a= sk > themselves if that is really something that is worth publishing. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-8D24CE95-9F26-49A6-86C4-44E96B9544C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=EF=BB=BF= Hi,= Magnus:
Thanks for your review.

For your consideration, would you like to read the responses from D= eborah at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/vKTyDcXfeVM= hNp5v9JyJhq-u0hc in this topic?
Anyway, it is not one sol= e document for descriptions the scenarios and simulation results. It is the b= ase document of others two documents. I have expressed such information in s= everal responses(for example the responses to Benjamin https://m= ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/YpIuzQg4oYT--BWhyeQfAj9YGx4  = ;and wish they can also convince you for future vote.

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Oct 3, 2019, at 17:43, Magnus Westerlund via Datatrac= ker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFMagnus Westerlund has entered th= e following ballot position for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-sc= enarios-09: Discuss

When responding, please= keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email address= es included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
i= ntroductory paragraph, however.)

Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.= html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT pos= itions.


The document, alon= g with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/
=


-------------------------= ---------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

I also think IESG and the WG really s= hould have a discussion if this document
should be published= at all. In addition to the points raised by Benjamin I want
to add my view to this.

The document in it= s current form appear to be outside of TEAS Charter. This
do= cument is none of the several things TEAS is approved to work with. As
Benjamin enumerates so well the document is also a very poor supp= ort or
architecture document. Which is why I would argue tha= t it fully outside of the
TEAS charter as neither a main obj= ective of the WG or a support document.

Eve= n if fixed to be a better support document, I still think the WG should
consider its charter and the IESG statement on support documents= :
https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-= documents/ and ask
themselves if that is really something th= at is worth publishing.




____________________________________________= ___
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
= --Apple-Mail-8D24CE95-9F26-49A6-86C4-44E96B9544C0-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 03:06:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CD5120119 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mc50UwUkpE3d for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B387120091 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id d16so2716887qtq.8 for ; Thu, 03 Oct 2019 03:05:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=b17lQ9x8PHCNtLFpcO2Ea0JZo76Mb1A/YK3djVubZ3o=; b=P7n3YNZf1Zqt+XmEJpciolw2TIgi35w5WiiCycsCtk8VV47L1/xY5ZwDSUU/v2WzHh 2usClemKQd/QediaB9v1REe14VdmNOYW4v05ZMGMjsiXtICYQ8z2Edwgf08HhhE/3esm dIS72Kt1u7/I4FmbyJiStDTFWU6guYD9gw617kNszxPr64E+dEIjHQV431XQ6qcqVChw x2gEuEMWWxtbrM1nJIt8e8RqiQB1hhBQr0RVxah59vOJ+7ud2mrwguBhfkuXbHIgQGpm Gs8HcCiytGLdrMW0mAMaORd8Dnqujq+DLmVNaa1Ood4oq26kX820AvUDxn9NmPo/LuRq o/eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b17lQ9x8PHCNtLFpcO2Ea0JZo76Mb1A/YK3djVubZ3o=; b=VpwUrD2ofQSPT5hDRZZyq4FiCmxnD5y37hk984faNDgMF/5aqsVFECeUyQD3Tp0Gqk O0shBB5Hwwf6w+dOfiPioLBUZ8YMyWYBw9UjTXSPS3Bi94riPNJKCUigiGxw7ROvI7xw O3Fv+laso7AS/RGCQIVd0PSbJsxGXGzUO3XkuY9k0jCHMO5Naq5wDAFSh2u7mVgwEOJQ pfi48Zt405egacdrYFYROY9dUu+xERmhalvfF2WTE5PPuSELXt1w3lJDW7cSk7PhrPhN LRSjQJm+awBoJH90b22ZP1SNNi+MJ0uxBZT7d818CB0jjzsuxtRBNnsfHQilaSuAC7E7 PF3A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV7+oJ8VKe3/PHCqc4TrUFDvlrBxRD+nBllaD08K/1CXNHCW18S lhofr6unGR+olA5mMpCnwHTD9bPE8enG2/Nx/U3ing== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy928VlB+BTDpoxRr5Ydwg9khMudPvr7/KNugzQfLUiprS7M1aMnP37ZcP2cm4x6l+AdWU4MCLdFLAixGhyUew= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2ae9:: with SMTP id c38mr8867650qta.311.1570097157943; Thu, 03 Oct 2019 03:05:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <58CDA7FD-F320-41A2-A374-677354CAE8E1@tsinghua.org.cn> In-Reply-To: <58CDA7FD-F320-41A2-A374-677354CAE8E1@tsinghua.org.cn> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 12:05:43 +0200 Message-ID: To: Aijun Wang Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , teas@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005cc7220593febb15" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:06:03 -0000 --0000000000005cc7220593febb15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Aijun. > With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologies within the network, the necessity > of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the traditional MPLS TE solutions. I fully agree. That is why I wrote my draft proposing how IP TE can be easily constructed and deployed today. > The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the descriptions of it. But without > the help of SDN controller and the global view of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve > the E2E QoS assurance and improve the network efficiency. I actually disagree with this above statement. Central control makes a lot of sense within single administrative domain where the advantage you have is ability to keep real time traffic matrix or traffic demand and then when you can control all ingress points and manage 100% of the transit traffic according to the plan. While this is possible in intra-domain cases it is pretty seldom used. For inter-domain traffic IMO this is impossible simply as you can not either get the full traffic matrix across N number of underlay ASes nor control how that traffic flows. I presented in my draft how I envision to achieve IP TE based on real time SLA measurements which btw is the default way of operation in number of SDWANs today. Some do it better then others but the core idea is still the same. Thx a lot, R. On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:43 AM Aijun Wang wrote: > Hi, Robert: > > Thanks for your comments. > With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologies within the network, > the necessity of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the > traditional MPLS TE solutions. > Current draft illustrates the intra-domain and inter-domain TE scenarios. > The solutions that can meet these scenarios/requirements in one unique > approach will be more easily deployed in the network. > > The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the > descriptions of it. But without the help of SDN controller and the global > view of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve the E2E Qo= S > assurance and improve the network efficiency. > > Would you like to provide some text for what you want to solve but not > covered by this document? > > Thanks in advance. > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > On Oct 3, 2019, at 16:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > All, > > I think it is useful informational document. > > However I would remove PCE elements from it and turned it into > requirements document perhaps also adding few more real life deployment > scenarios where use of end to end IP TE is very important. > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang > wrote: > >> =EF=BB=BF >> =EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin: >> Thanks for your review. >> >> On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in >> Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. Th= e >> simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central contro= l >> under the global view. >> This document is the base document of other two drafts: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution >> Draft) >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04 >> (PCEP >> extension) >> >> There are currently at least three different solutions trying to >> accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and >> simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. >> >> More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for >> the future vote. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >> >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < >> noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> DISCUSS: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I have two points for discussion: >> >> (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for >> standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by >> abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether >> it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient >> document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. >> >> [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from >> operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document >> maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim = of >> it same as others: give some useful information to the community based o= n >> our efforts. >> Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. >> >> (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being >> all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an >> applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment >> for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to >> indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some >> interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is >> appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: >> >> [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description >> document. The simulation part of this document just want to convince the >> reader the addition gain of central control under the global view. >> The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draf= t. >> >> >> (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and >> the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of >> where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they >> are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. >> >> >> [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all >> abstraction from our real network deployment. >> >> >> (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to >> engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall >> efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and >> apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the >> protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture >> >> >> [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the >> above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in >> previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation >> results. >> >> >> (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology >> shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, >> but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima >> that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected >> for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would >> the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, >> such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic >> spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility >> does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? >> >> [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network >> conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals= . >> The optimization process for the simulated complex topology and traffic >> matrix need only tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is >> easy to enhance the central controller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle th= e >> changeable environment. >> >> The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such >> descriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment Considera= tions=E2=80=9D >> part.( >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9) >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes >> get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about >> the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) >> >> >> [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. I= t >> is not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple >> BGP session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the hel= p >> of PCEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solutio= n >> draft( >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1= ) >> >> >> >> Section 3.1 >> >> I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private >> Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the >> edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based >> Application" in neither of the named clouds? >> >> >> [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based App= lication=E2=80=9D >> are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPub= lic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can >> deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment >> scenarios. >> >> Section 3.2 >> >> Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a >> star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices >> >> "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that >> could be called MANs that use a different topology.. >> >> [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. >> >> Section 4..1 >> >> nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. >> >> >> [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. >> >> >> Section 4.2 >> >> Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical >> deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! >> >> >> [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is th= e >> reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 >> >> >> Section 4.3 >> >> The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of >> topology. [...] >> >> I don't know how to interpret this statement. >> It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat >> arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with >> real-world traffic patterns. >> >> [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar >> with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate >> the robustness of the simulation process. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> > --0000000000005cc7220593febb15 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Aijun.

> With the pervasive deplo= yment of overlay technologies within the network, the necessity=C2=A0
=
> of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the traditional M= PLS TE solutions.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I fully agree. T= hat is why I wrote my draft proposing how IP TE can be easily constructed a= nd deployed today.=C2=A0

> The PCE is just the = representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the descriptions of it. B= ut without=C2=A0
> the help of SDN controller and the global v= iew of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve=C2=A0
> the E2E QoS assurance and improve the network efficiency.=C2=A0=C2= =A0

I actually disagree with this above statem= ent.=C2=A0

Central control makes a lot of sense wi= thin single administrative domain where the advantage you have is ability t= o keep real time traffic=C2=A0matrix or traffic demand and then when you ca= n control all ingress points and manage 100% of the transit traffic accordi= ng to the plan.=C2=A0

While this is possible in in= tra-domain cases it is pretty seldom used. For inter-domain traffic IMO thi= s is impossible simply as you can not either get the full traffic matrix ac= ross N number of underlay ASes nor control how that traffic flows.=C2=A0

I presented in my draft how I envision to achieve IP= TE based on real time SLA measurements which btw is the default way=C2=A0 = of operation in number of SDWANs today. Some do it better then others but t= he core idea is still the same.=C2=A0

Thx a lot,
R.
=C2=A0








<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Thu, Oct= 3, 2019 at 11:43 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> wrote:
Hi, Robert:

Thanks for your comments.
With the pervasive deployment of= overlay technologies within the network, the necessity of IP TE solutions = will be more attractive than the traditional MPLS TE solutions.
C= urrent draft illustrates the intra-domain and inter-domain TE scenarios. Th= e solutions that can meet these scenarios/requirements =C2=A0in one unique = approach will be more easily deployed in the network.

<= div>The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate t= he descriptions of it. But without the help of SDN controller and the globa= l view of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve the E2E Qo= S assurance and improve the network efficiency.

Wo= uld you like to provide some text for what you want to solve but not covere= d by this document?

Thanks in advance.
<= br>
Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Oct 3, 2019, at 16:39, Robert Raszuk <= ;robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
All,

I think it is us= eful informational document.=C2=A0

However I would= remove PCE elements from it and turned it into requirements document perha= ps also adding few more real life deployment scenarios where use of end to = end IP TE is very=C2=A0important.

Many thx,
<= div>R.





On = Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn> wrote:
=
=EF=BB=BF
=EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin:
Thank= s for your review.

On summary, this draft just giv= es the scenarios that needed for TE in Native IP network, this is absent in= current existing IETF documents. The simulation results just demonstrated = the applicability of central control under the global view.
This = document is the base document of other two drafts:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-= 04=C2=A0(Solution Draft)


There are currently at least= three different solutions trying to accomplish the TE necessities in nativ= e IP network. This scenarios and simulation draft is just the start points = of these documents.

More details responses are inl= ine below. Wish they can convince you for the future vote.

Thanks in advance.

Aijun Wang
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
China Telecom

On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker = <noreply@ietf.org<= /a>> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot pos= ition for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss

When responding, please keep the subject li= ne intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the = To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragr= aph, however.)


Please ref= er to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT p= ositions.


The document, a= long with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-= ip-scenarios/


=
-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
DISCUSS:
----------------------------= ------------------------------------------

I have two points for discussion:

(1) If = this document was subject to the approval requirements for
= standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by
abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to dis= cuss whether
it makes sense to approve this document even t= hough the more-lenient
document-action requirements would o= therwise let it go forward.

<= div>[Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from = operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document ma= ybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it= same as others: give some useful information to the community based on our= efforts.
Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convin= ce the reviewer.

(2) The document seems incomplete to me.=C2=A0 It has some aspec= ts of being
all/any of a use-cases document, an architectur= e document, and an
applicability analysis, but does not see= m to have a complete treatment
for any of them.=C2=A0 To be= clear, there is enough in the document to
indicate that th= e topic merits further work, and there are some
interesting= results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is
appropriate for this document in this form.=C2=A0 Specifically:
[Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenari= os description document. The simulation part of this document just want to = convince the reader the addition gain of central control under the global v= iew.
The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned so= lutions draft.


(2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topol= ogy with BRAS/SR and
the simulated network in Figure 6, but= there is not much discussion of
where these (or similar) s= cenarios arise in practice, how common they
are, and how cl= osely the simulation reflects actual usage.

[Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology ar= e all abstraction from our real network deployment.


(2b) architecture: a ve= ry high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to
engineer= some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall
ef= ficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved = and
apply the computed paths or what requirements will need= to be met by the
protocols and components used to instanti= ate the architecture

[Aiju= n Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the above me= ntioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, this = draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results.

(2c) app= licability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology
<= span>shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison= ,
but there is little to give confidence that this reflects= a broad maxima
that is robust to environmental variations.= =C2=A0 Is the alternative selected
for comparison an approp= riate one for the cases in question?=C2=A0 How would
the pr= opsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in,such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traf= fic
spikes?=C2=A0 What timescale can it react in and what l= evel of visibility
does the PCE need into current condition= s in order to be reliable?

[A= ijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network conditions= via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimiz= ation process for the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need on= ly tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance = the central controller=E2=80=99s capability to tackle the changeable enviro= nment.

The above concerns has more relations to th= e solutions, we can add such descriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2= =80=9CDeployment Considerations=E2=80=9D part.(ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9)
=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= /span>
-----------------------------------------------------------= -----------
COMMENT:
----------------------= ------------------------------------------------
If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed= routes
get applied; are we using source routing or just be= ing careful about
the prefixes in use? =C2=A0(Are there goi= ng to be any scaling concerns?)


[Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mention= ed solution draft. It is not using the current source routing, but the comb= ination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nex= thop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in sectio= n 9.1 of solution draft(https://tools.ietf.org/= html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1)

=


Section= 3.1

I don't understand what Figure 1 = is intending to convey.=C2=A0 Are "Private
Cloud Site&= quot; and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on th= e
edge of the distributed control network?=C2=A0 Why is the= "Cloud Based
Application" in neither of the name= d clouds?


[Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based Appli= cation=E2=80=9D are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud Site=E2=80=9D and= =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can deem these sites as the conce= pts described in traditional VPN deployment scenarios.

Section 3.2
=C2=A0=C2=A0Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is = generally in a
=C2=A0=C2=A0star mode as illustrated in Fig= ure 2, with different devices

"Genera= lly" within what scope, commercial ISPs?=C2=A0 I know of things that
could be called MANs that use a different topology..<= br>
[Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP= .

Section 4..1

nit: several sentences are missing spaces af= ter the full stop.

[Aijun Wang]= Will correct them in update version.

Section 4.2

Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical
<= span>deployments?=C2=A0 That's a lot of links not going to customers!

[Aijun Wang]: The core node= s can also connects the customers. That is the reasons that the traffic mat= rix is 500*500, not 100*100


Section 4.3

= =C2=A0=C2=A0The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of
=C2=A0=C2=A0topology. =C2=A0[...]
I don't know how to interpret this statement.
I= t does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat
<= span>arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with
real-world traffic patterns.

[Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links rati= o is similar with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise c= ertificate the robustness of the simulation process. =C2=A0


_______________= ________________________________
Teas mailing listTeas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
__________________________________= _____________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--0000000000005cc7220593febb15-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 03:25:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC76120115; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:25:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4oDABmBwEPX2; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.223]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF48120091; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 03:25:04 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:15560.876258970 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-18.136.235.223?logid-EAA5BE84AFF04724ABAC6AD6675C352D (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id A5A742800AF; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:24:48 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id EAA5BE84AFF04724ABAC6AD6675C352D for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org; Thu Oct 3 18:24:58 2019 X-Transaction-ID: EAA5BE84AFF04724ABAC6AD6675C352D X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:24:45 +0800 Message-Id: <7D7F061C-44A5-45E4-9ABF-B435B66A3351@chinatelecom.cn> References: Cc: Aijun Wang , Benjamin Kaduk , draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , teas@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:25:09 -0000 Hi, Robert, Thanks for your comments. Please see the inline responses below. Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 3, 2019, at 18:06, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Aijun. >=20 >> With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologies within the network,= > the necessity >> of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the traditional MPLS TE > solutions. >=20 > I fully agree. That is why I wrote my draft proposing how IP TE can be > easily constructed and deployed today. >=20 >> The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the= > descriptions of it. But without >> the help of SDN controller and the global view of underlying network, it > is almost impossible to achieve >> the E2E QoS assurance and improve the network efficiency. >=20 > I actually disagree with this above statement. >=20 > Central control makes a lot of sense within single administrative domain > where the advantage you have is ability to keep real time traffic matrix o= r > traffic demand and then when you can control all ingress points and manage= > 100% of the transit traffic according to the plan. >=20 [Aijun Wang] I agree. > While this is possible in intra-domain cases it is pretty seldom used. For= > inter-domain traffic IMO this is impossible simply as you can not either > get the full traffic matrix across N number of underlay ASes nor control > how that traffic flows. [Aijun Wang] There are also the inter-domain that under one administration s= cope can achieve the expected results. >=20 > I presented in my draft how I envision to achieve IP TE based on real time= > SLA measurements which btw is the default way of operation in number of > SDWANs today. Some do it better then others but the core idea is still the= > same. [Aijun Wang] Is there any SDWAN deployment that operated by different operat= ors? As I known, current SDWAN solutions are mainly proprietary protocol. The vision for E2E QoS assurance that covers different operators is attracti= ve but also challenging. To transmit the SLA measurements via the central co= ntrol unit and then deploy them in the network respectively is more feasible= . We can discuss such scenarios further in details. >=20 > Thx a lot, > R. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 11:43 AM Aijun Wang >> wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, Robert: >>=20 >> Thanks for your comments. >> With the pervasive deployment of overlay technologies within the network,= >> the necessity of IP TE solutions will be more attractive than the >> traditional MPLS TE solutions. >> Current draft illustrates the intra-domain and inter-domain TE scenarios.= >> The solutions that can meet these scenarios/requirements in one unique >> approach will be more easily deployed in the network. >>=20 >> The PCE is just the representative of SDN controller. We can mitigate the= >> descriptions of it. But without the help of SDN controller and the global= >> view of underlying network, it is almost impossible to achieve the E2E Qo= S >> assurance and improve the network efficiency. >>=20 >> Would you like to provide some text for what you want to solve but not >> covered by this document? >>=20 >> Thanks in advance. >>=20 >> Aijun Wang >> China Telecom >>=20 >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 16:39, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> All, >>=20 >> I think it is useful informational document. >>=20 >> However I would remove PCE elements from it and turned it into >> requirements document perhaps also adding few more real life deployment >> scenarios where use of end to end IP TE is very important. >>=20 >> Many thx, >> R. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM Aijun Wang >> wrote: >>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> =EF=BB=BFHi, Benjamin: >>> Thanks for your review. >>>=20 >>> On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in >>> Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. Th= e >>> simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central contro= l >>> under the global view. >>> This document is the base document of other two drafts: >>>=20 >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution >>> Draft) >>>=20 >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04 >>> (PCEP >>> extension) >>>=20 >>> There are currently at least three different solutions trying to >>> accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and >>> simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. >>>=20 >>> More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for >>> the future vote. >>>=20 >>> Thanks in advance. >>>=20 >>> Aijun Wang >>> China Telecom >>>=20 >>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < >>> noreply@ietf.org> wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss >>>=20 >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.htm= l >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> I have two points for discussion: >>>=20 >>> (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for >>> standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by >>> abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether >>> it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient >>> document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. >>>=20 >>> [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from >>> operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document= >>> maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim o= f >>> it same as others: give some useful information to the community based o= n >>> our efforts. >>> Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. >>>=20 >>> (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being >>> all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an >>> applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment >>> for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to >>> indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some >>> interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is >>> appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: >>>=20 >>> [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description >>> document. The simulation part of this document just want to convince the= >>> reader the addition gain of central control under the global view. >>> The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draf= t. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and >>> the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of >>> where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they >>> are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all >>> abstraction from our real network deployment. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to >>> engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall >>> efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and >>> apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the= >>> protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the >>> above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in >>> previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation= >>> results. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology >>> shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, >>> but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima= >>> that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected= >>> for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would >>> the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, >>> such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic >>> spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility >>> does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? >>>=20 >>> [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network >>> conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals= From nobody Thu Oct 3 06:20:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EDB12001A; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:20:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Barry Leiba via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Barry Leiba Message-ID: <157010883408.16164.106194701780959617.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 06:20:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Barry Leiba's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:20:35 -0000 Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In light of Roman's comments about the academic paper, I agree and join in the "Abstain" group. It would be better just to have the other documents refer to the academic paper, rather than to republish a portion of that paper in the RFC series. From nobody Thu Oct 3 06:48:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B18241208FD; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8zpAuAUPskp0; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74192120019; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:48:24 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:41177.1921218654 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-18.136.235.223?logid-9A2CE0BE291F48EA9001DCCF138A88CC (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 5159E28008B; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:48:11 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id 9A2CE0BE291F48EA9001DCCF138A88CC for teas-chairs@ietf.org; Thu Oct 3 21:48:18 2019 X-Transaction-ID: 9A2CE0BE291F48EA9001DCCF138A88CC X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:48:06 +0800 Message-Id: <49E1748F-AF9D-49C0-BA65-CB0087B00942@chinatelecom.cn> References: <157010883408.16164.106194701780959617.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <157010883408.16164.106194701780959617.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Barry Leiba's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:48:29 -0000 Hi, Barry: I have replied several times for this incomplete impressions for this draft.= It is NOT the republication of part of the academic paper as one RFC. The si= mulation results just for reference for the additional gain of central contr= ol under the global view. I don=E2=80=99t know why the reviewers not considering the main purposes of t= his draft that I reiterated several times. Is it acceptable that we drop out of the simulation results then? Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 3, 2019, at 21:20, Barry Leiba via Datatracker w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFBarry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > In light of Roman's comments about the academic paper, I agree and join in= the > "Abstain" group. It would be better just to have the other documents refe= r to > the academic paper, rather than to republish a portion of that paper in th= e RFC > series. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Thu Oct 3 06:58:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B5412090D; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:58:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FktBZ3aCusbc; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.223]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E3B12090B; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:58:06 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.48:21675.559241253 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-18.136.235.223?logid-E10B24B01BBD4321BCED1AF684B51674 (unknown [172.18.0.48]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id CFC86280098; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:57:54 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040164@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.48]) by App0024 with ESMTP id E10B24B01BBD4321BCED1AF684B51674 for teas-chairs@ietf.org; Thu Oct 3 21:58:04 2019 X-Transaction-ID: E10B24B01BBD4321BCED1AF684B51674 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangaj3@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.48 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-72EDDA8D-E124-472A-8017-939AAA0039CE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 21:57:37 +0800 Message-Id: References: <49E1748F-AF9D-49C0-BA65-CB0087B00942@chinatelecom.cn> Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , teas@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <49E1748F-AF9D-49C0-BA65-CB0087B00942@chinatelecom.cn> To: Barry Leiba X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Barry Leiba's Abstain on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:58:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail-72EDDA8D-E124-472A-8017-939AAA0039CE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Barry: Wish the response to Roman at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/IgJ= H9EZb0I9nx4TyaGEBROEiGos can convince you for the future vote. Mores comments are welcome. Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 3, 2019, at 21:48, Aijun Wang wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi, Barry: > I have replied several times for this incomplete impressions for this draf= t. > It is NOT the republication of part of the academic paper as one RFC. The s= imulation results just for reference for the additional gain of central cont= rol under the global view. > I don=E2=80=99t know why the reviewers not considering the main purposes o= f this draft that I reiterated several times. > Is it acceptable that we drop out of the simulation results then? >=20 > Aijun Wang > China Telecom >=20 >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 21:20, Barry Leiba via Datatracker w= rote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFBarry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html= >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> In light of Roman's comments about the academic paper, I agree and join i= n the >> "Abstain" group. It would be better just to have the other documents ref= er to >> the academic paper, rather than to republish a portion of that paper in t= he RFC >> series. >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-72EDDA8D-E124-472A-8017-939AAA0039CE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Barry:
Wish the response to Roman a= t https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/IgJH9EZb0I9nx4TyaGE= BROEiGos  can convince you for the future vote.
Mores com= ments are welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Aijun Wang
China Telecom

On Oct 3, 2019, at 21:48, Aijun Wang <wangaj3@china= telecom.cn> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFHi, Barry:
I have replied seve= ral times for this incomplete impressions for this draft.
It= is NOT the republication of part of the academic paper as one RFC. The simu= lation results just for reference for the additional gain of central control= under the global view.
I don=E2=80=99t know why the reviewe= rs not considering the main purposes of this draft that I reiterated several= times.
Is it acceptable that we drop out of the simulation r= esults then?

Aijun Wang
Chi= na Telecom

On Oct= 3, 2019, at 21:20, Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wro= te:

=EF=BB=BFBarry Leiba has entered the f= ollowing ballot position for
draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Abstain

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply t= o all
email addresses= included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)=


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteri= a.html
for more infor= mation about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document= , along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/


<= /blockquote>

----------------------------------------------------= ------------------
CO= MMENT:
--------------= --------------------------------------------------------

In light of Roman's comments about the academic paper, I agr= ee and join in the
"A= bstain" group.  It would be better just to have the other documents ref= er to
the academic pa= per, rather than to republish a portion of that paper in the RFC
<= /blockquote>
series.
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

_________= ______________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
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Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:47:29 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn" CC: "teas@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org" , "iesg@ietf.org" , "lberger@labn.net" , "teas-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teas] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHVedDaz8W53VVlukW91qBGBAvn1qdI/1GA Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:47:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <29EC9D4E-7491-456F-B358-B19CABB6AE6D@tsinghua.org.cn> In-Reply-To: <29EC9D4E-7491-456F-B358-B19CABB6AE6D@tsinghua.org.cn> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.82] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0def827e-a65d-48f1-4be6-08d748109d62 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB7PR07MB4521: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: hY8CJICNm24S9VwhhsHtt8Ooy4H74RypG6yx6+xlVbQd8UCKK9oV73dL08PXPyRHD+sa5OXK4gpmiEDsCHeou8pB/Q+tcPwp3kkJDnbzGfjx6Zl29kPYXwiez5Nl8MtFU7pRHYeNCqcAbcASuUvBP7ekUNGG9BVHceNDi/rjslHOLAYM4y1zjy0IpzaQevzN69LCie1Yf+CUHzH6exoIMbOxozopHVg2Ow0jxB+Nvbvk9iaDvn3Su1uEPsx1oXPQnp2er9LEiNK0pILLSyxGGyP+NXq+l3oKtwdmXv1ePk9OgMRg+gmdWIHhQ2jTWP/wGqw7et8HAX1S9oSWoYCRfIbXwT5jercPmxn3NgPY90jFmRBbK9ycyIECBOvp/TU7HUST/p1iJHwelDwukjno+FPOyPXwQqxmxR/iPKf3mFs= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-5La4HSPrD09nG3zJpi1D" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0def827e-a65d-48f1-4be6-08d748109d62 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Oct 2019 14:47:29.1150 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: bFQEawMIP66TewkqVILtwPyFjkSKEDb7PVC/jl/GubMEf43142K4OKSLOaJ2DODhjJk6kMGXd4LbPUPdVMHoDyLt5v5v4XYQ9zclQz/rGLs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB4521 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:47:35 -0000 --=-5La4HSPrD09nG3zJpi1D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have cleared my discuss after today's IESG telechat discussion.=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund On Thu, 2019-10-03 at 17:56 +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: > =EF=BB=BFHi, Magnus: > Thanks for your review. >=20 > For your consideration, would you like to read the responses from Deborah= at=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/vKTyDcXfeVMhNp5v9JyJhq-u0hc in= this > topic? > Anyway, it is not one sole document for descriptions the scenarios and > simulation results. It is the base document of others two documents. I ha= ve > expressed such information in several responses(for example the responses= to > Benjamin=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/YpIuzQg4oYT--BWhyeQfAj9YGx4 a= nd > wish they can also convince you for future vote. >=20 > Aijun Wang > China Telecom >=20 > > On Oct 3, 2019, at 17:43, Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker < > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > >=20 > > =EF=BB=BFMagnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position fo= r > > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss > >=20 > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > >=20 > >=20 > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.ht= ml > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >=20 > >=20 > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >=20 > > I also think IESG and the WG really should have a discussion if this > > document > > should be published at all. In addition to the points raised by Benjami= n I > > want > > to add my view to this. > >=20 > > The document in its current form appear to be outside of TEAS Charter. = This > > document is none of the several things TEAS is approved to work with. A= s > > Benjamin enumerates so well the document is also a very poor support or > > architecture document. Which is why I would argue that it fully outside= of > > the > > TEAS charter as neither a main objective of the WG or a support documen= t. > >=20 > > Even if fixed to be a better support document, I still think the WG sho= uld > > consider its charter and the IESG statement on support documents: > > https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-documents/ an= d ask > > themselves if that is really something that is worth publishing. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com 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Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3D012081B; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:05:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lvRbHCT1M5vz; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AE4C120818; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x93L4so8003172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 3 Oct 2019 17:04:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 14:04:53 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Aijun Wang Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 21:05:05 -0000 Hi Aijun, On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 04:10:16PM +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: > > Hi, Benjamin: > Thanks for your review. > > On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central control under the global view. > This document is the base document of other two drafts: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution Draft) > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PCEP extension) > > There are currently at least three different solutions trying to accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. Okay, so it sounds like the goal of the document is to show that there are some scenarios/use-cases in which Native IP provides a substantial improvement from the previous state of the art (or, perhaps, from the other competing options), and the simulations are just a tool used to augment the qualitative description with some concrete instantiations. This does not match fully with the current Abstract/Introduction, the former of which I quote from: This document describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when applying a PCE in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control technology. A pithy summary of that exerpt might be "describes some routing scenarios and simulation results for CCDR; CCDR combines advantages of distributed protocols and centralized control". While those statements seem to be true, it doesn't say much about the presented scenarios and results implying that CCDR is the best or even a good solution for the described scenarios; it's just two facts that don't get tied together. > More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for the future vote. I'm pretty sure that we'll need to update the text for me to change my ballot position, but I also don't forsee significant challenges in doing so. > Thanks in advance. > > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I have two points for discussion: > > > > (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for > > standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by > > abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether > > it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient > > document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. > > > [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it same as others: give some useful information to the community based on our efforts. > Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. > > > (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being > > all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an > > applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment > > for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to > > indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some > > interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is > > appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: > [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document. The simulation part of this document just want to convince the reader the addition gain of central control under the global view. > The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft. > > > > > (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and > > the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of > > where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they > > are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. > > [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all abstraction from our real network deployment. That's what I expected, but it can be helpful to state this explicitly. (On the other hand, this is probably textbook stuff, so minimal coverage is okay.) Since we're focusing on the "use-cases" portion, to use my terminology, then the main thing to focus on would be to convince the reader that the simulation results are likely to translate well to real-world usage. Mentioning that the presented results hold across many different (random) simulations, as Éric suggest, would help with this, especially if some sense of the nature of the distribution across trials can be included (such as standard deviations). Drawing the connection between the real-world topology and model topology (as mentioned above) also helps with this. As a side note, I do wonder how the simulation results would look if there was a "spatial affinity" for the attachments of edge nodes to the core, in that there is a correlation between which subset of core nodes are attached to individual edge nodes. I expect the impact to be minor, since the core is fully connected in the simulated topology, but can't guarantee it. But this is a side note since I don't think running such new simulations would be necessary in order to get the document into a state where it can be published. > > > > (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to > > engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall > > efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and > > apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the > > protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture > > [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results. Sure, and that's a fine way to split up the content -- we don't necessarily need to include the architecture of the solution in this document. > > > > (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology > > shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, > > but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima > > that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected > > for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would > > the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, > > such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic > > spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility > > does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? > [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimization process for the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need only tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance the central controller’s capability to tackle the changeable environment. > > The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such descriptions in the solutions draft at its “Deployment Considerations” part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9) I agree that these concerns relate to specific solutions and are best addressed alongside the solutions draft(s); we don't necessarily need to have this draft cover this topic. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes > > get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about > > the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) > > > > [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It is not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1) Okay, thanks. > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private > > Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the > > edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based > > Application" in neither of the named clouds? > > > > [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the “Cloud-Based Application” are located at the “Private Cloud Site” and “Public Cloud Site”. You can deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment scenarios. So the "Cloud-Based Application" has components in both Cloud sites, but excludes the PCE and distributed control network? Perhaps extending the box for it to include parts at both sites, or having smaller boxes at both sites and a line grouping them together, would be more clear. > > Section 3.2 > > > > Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a > > star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices > > > > "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that > > could be called MANs that use a different topology. > > > [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. Okay. This was implied by the previous discussion of "service provider network", but I'd suggest being explicit about it here. > > Section 4.1 > > > > nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. > > [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical > > deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! > > [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 > > > > > Section 4.3 > > > > The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of > > topology. [...] > > > > I don't know how to interpret this statement. > > It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat > > arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with > > real-world traffic patterns. > > > [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the robustness of the simulation process. If I understand correctly, there's three important variables for the simulation: baseline load, the congesion threshold for each link, and the distribution of flow bandwidth for the simulated flows. I don't know if the simulation is being run with zero baseline load so that all flows are centrally managed or not, so please say something about that. For the other two, sould it be accurate to say something like "the congestion threshold for the edge/core and intra-core links are set to the fixed value of 90%" or "the congestion threshold for edge/core and intra-core links are sampled from a distribution representative of observed real-world environments", and "the bandwidth requirements of generated flows is from a distribution representative of observed real-world flow data"? In short, I think we need to say enough about what was done that someone else could independently run if not the same experiment, one sufficiently similar that we expect the results to also be similar. Thanks, Ben From nobody Thu Oct 3 16:21:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15E8120112; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I925xvQ-dhSh; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50CA12010D; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [240.0.0.1] (unknown [18.139.248.91]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 704FB661323; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:21:41 +0800 (CST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aijun Wang Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:21:38 +0800 Message-Id: <332A9B94-D246-498E-A3C1-1FC5C25FA504@tsinghua.org.cn> References: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> To: Benjamin Kaduk X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A577) X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZSVVMQ05LS0tLQ05DSEtNQllXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6MjI6Thw4OjlNTkkvKEI0ChA8 TQ5PCkxVSlVKTkxLSk9PQktPQkJCVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlKQ1VKSEJVSU9DVUJKWVdZCAFZQU9IT0s3Bg++ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d93edd9579373kuws704fb661323 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 23:21:49 -0000 Hi, Benjamin: The pithy summary that you proposed is right. The relationship between these= two parts is that the simulation parts(4.4 and 4.5) of the document just de= monstrated how to solve efficiently the TE scenarios/req described in 3.1 a= nd 3.4. The scenarios described in 3.2 and 3.3 can also be solved using the similar s= trategy but not covered by the current simulation process. What summary sentences will be appropriate for the above information then? W= ould you like to give us some hints from the experts viewpoint?=20 We can update the abstract in next version to reflect this relationship, tog= ether with other responses to you and reviewers=E2=80=99s comments. Thanks in advance. Aijun Wang China Telecom > On Oct 4, 2019, at 05:05, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Aijun, >=20 >> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 04:10:16PM +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, Benjamin: >> Thanks for your review. >>=20 >> On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Nat= ive IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simul= ation results just demonstrated the applicability of central control under t= he global view. >> This document is the base document of other two drafts: >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution Dr= aft) >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PC= EP extension) >>=20 >> There are currently at least three different solutions trying to accompli= sh the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation dr= aft is just the start points of these documents. >=20 > Okay, so it sounds like the goal of the document is to show that there are= > some scenarios/use-cases in which Native IP provides a substantial > improvement from the previous state of the art (or, perhaps, from the othe= r > competing options), and the simulations are just a tool used to augment th= e > qualitative description with some concrete instantiations. This does not > match fully with the current Abstract/Introduction, the former of which I > quote from: >=20 > This document > describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when > applying a PCE in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as > Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage > of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control > technology. >=20 > A pithy summary of that exerpt might be "describes some routing scenarios > and simulation results for CCDR; CCDR combines advantages of distributed > protocols and centralized control". While those statements seem to be > true, it doesn't say much about the presented scenarios and results > implying that CCDR is the best or even a good solution for the described > scenarios; it's just two facts that don't get tied together. >=20 >> More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for t= he future vote. >=20 From nobody Fri Oct 4 13:05:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F306A1200CC; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 13:05:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, db3546@att.com, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.104.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157021950092.1122.18013763921445956038.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 13:05:00 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] teas - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 20:05:01 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Lou Berger, a Chair of the teas working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: ccamp mpls pce netmod detnet Technology Overlap: idr i2rs spring lsr Key Participant Conflict: pals bess nvo3 People who must be present: Lou Berger Deborah Brungard Vishnu Pavan Beeram Resources Requested: Special Requests: One 2.5 hour session please... Other Conflicts: IRTF RRG, RTG BOFs --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Oct 4 14:02:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D29412004A; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R32kHU-oi5Md; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40293120025; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x94L2IET016645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 4 Oct 2019 17:02:20 -0400 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:02:17 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Tarek Saad Cc: The IESG , "draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types@ietf.org" , Lou Berger , "teas-chairs@ietf.org" , "teas@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191004210217.GI6722@kduck.mit.edu> References: <156632204190.473.13624423113790831871.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:02:32 -0000 On Tue, Oct 01, 2019 at 05:41:37PM +0000, Tarek Saad wrote: > Hi Benjamin, > > Thank you very much for the thorough review and for the valuable comments. We have uploaded revision -11 that attempts to address those comments. Please see inline for detailed responses. Let us know if there are further outstanding comments. > > On 8/20/19, 1:27 PM, "Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker" wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-types-10: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_iesg_statement_discuss-2Dcriteria.html&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=Kd6NW5ctLWr7GB646PVmMByvi8wQxPILpKhHvGQeRHY&m=hnPuRIqXqStfK232Nk2hmq9WsTD2edVNgVLywB7I9S8&s=-tmE5kZMwh42TgMAaC3M4xeGTxYdYNt5fZ7gnVI59m0&e= > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dteas-2Dyang-2Dte-2Dtypes_&d=DwICaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=Kd6NW5ctLWr7GB646PVmMByvi8wQxPILpKhHvGQeRHY&m=hnPuRIqXqStfK232Nk2hmq9WsTD2edVNgVLywB7I9S8&s=RkaTEY5gt6bhkr_3YkKb0CkmkQyY4-GYjfuvWkkKVaQ&e= > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There's a couple points (describe further in the comment section) that > I'd like to get a bit more clarity on: > > (1) the semantics of admin-group hex strings of length smaller than 11 > [TS]: RFC6991 defines the hex-string as stream of octets - separated by colon. The below are acceptable representations that result in same value (bit-position 0 is set). > 01 > 00:01 > 00:00:00:01 I'm not coming to the conclusion just based on what's written in this document and RFC 6991. You seem to be assuming that the hex string is mapped to the four-octet bitmask using a little-endian representation of the bitmask with zero padding, but I can't find where that's stated. > (2) the units for the te-bandwidth numerical values (and in what cases > no units are needed), and for performance-metrics-*-way-bandwidth values > [TS]: The unit is technology dependent. For example for packet, the example we give in the description is inline with the type bandwidth-ieee-float32 defined in RFC8294. We can clarify this further in description if needed. I was most concerned about the "packet switching type" since my cursory look at OTN and/or DWDM indicated that the listed parameters do imply an absolute bandwidth. Please do further clarify what the units are for the float32 value used for packet-switching types. > (3) whether threshold-accelerated-advertisement's use of relative vs. > absolute values requires any special handling > [TS]: these are absolute values and inline with the rfc7810#section-5 and rfc7471#section-5 [comments below] > (4) whether we want to specify any requirements/error-handling/etc. when > there is potential for "nonsense" configuration, such as a > max-constraint being configured as numerically smaller than a > min-constraint > [TS]: We have some checks where it was needed. Implementations can also make additional restrictive checks with a deviations if needed. Okay. > (5) what the "variation" in the te-packet-types module's leafs is > intending to measure. > [TS]: the per link delay variation as defined in RFC7823. I looked at RFC 7823 and it doesn't help me very much. Is there a mathematical formula for what it measures? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In general it's hard to examine many of these types and see whether they > are fit for purpose without some sense of how they would be used, but of > course following a chain of references for all of the types in question > wouldu be tedious to the point of exhaustion. I'm reluctant to start > getting into examples (since such a list would necessarily be > incomplete), but if you want one, the 'suppression-interval' leaf has a > very terse description, that will presumably be supplemented by some > text in some other document about what exactly is getting suppressed and > when, but if I were to try to implement from just this document I'd be > doing a lot of guessing. > > [TS]: Agreed. For 'suppression-interval', it is detailed in rfc7810#section-6. We will update the description/reference for this. > > Section 3 > > types for TE generic types and ietf-te-packet-types for packet > specific types. Other technology specific TE types are outside the > > nits: "packet-specific" and "technology-specific" to hyphenate the > compound adjectives. > [TS]: updated. > > Section 3.1 > > te-node-id: > > A type representing the identifier for a node in a TE topology. > The identifier is represented as 32-bit unsigned integer in the > dotted-quad notation. This attribute MAY be mapped to the Router > > Why is te-node-id IPv4-centric? E.g., RFC 6119 describes an "IPv6 TE > Router ID" TLV as well as the "TE Router ID" TLV that we reference here > for the node ID. > Furthermore, either it's a 32-bit unsigned integer or it's represented > in the dotted-quad notation, but the dotted-quad notation doesn't really > count as a 32-bit unsigned integer. > [TS]: this was discussed on the WG mail list, and agreement was to keep TE node ID as dotted-quad 4 octets. We updated the description as below.. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/bP5VurFZKQVx3hNWxUVz6alRIGg > We can update description to: > OLD: > The identifier is represented as 32-bit unsigned integer in > the dotted-quad notation. > NEW: > The identifier is represented as 4 octets in dotted-quad notation. > te-metric: > > A type representing the TE link metric as defined in [RFC3785]. > > (editorial) the phrase "link metric" does not appear in RFC 3785. > [TS]: Sure. > OLD: > A type representing the TE metric as defined in [RFC3785]. > > NEW: > A type representing the TE metric as defined in [RFC3785]. > > Section 3.2 > > The ietf-te-packet-types module covers the common types and groupings > specific packet technology. > > nit: I think there's a word missing here. > [TS]: update to: > NEW: > The ietf-te-packet-types module covers the common types and groupings > that are specific to packet technology. > > performance-metrics-attributes-packet: > > A YANG grouping for the augmentation of packet specific metrics to > the generic performance metrics grouping parameters. > > nit(?) I can't tell which way the augmentation is supposed to go, just > from this text. > [TS]: update text to: > NEW: A YANG grouping that contains the generic performance metrics and additional packet specific metrics. > > Section 4 > > typedef admin-group { > type yang:hex-string { > /* 01:02:03:04 */ > length "1..11"; > } > description > "Administrative group/Resource class/Color representation in > hex-string type."; > reference "RFC3630 and RFC5305"; > > RFC 5305 says to treat this as essentially a bitmask. What are the > semantics when I only supply a string of (say) length 1 or 2? > > [TS]: number is stored as 32-bits. As indicated earlier: > 01 > 00:01 > 00:00:00:01 all indicate bit-position 0 is set and can internally be represented as 0x00000001 > > > typedef performance-metrics-normality { > [...] > reference > "RFC7471: OSPF Traffic Engineering (TE) Metric Extensions. > RFC8570: IS-IS Traffic Engineering (TE) Metric Extensions. > RFC7823: Performance-Based Path Selection for Explicitly > Routed Label Switched Paths (LSPs) Using TE Metric > Extensions"; > > None of these three references describes "normal" or "abnormal". > [TS]: The RFCs refer to it as "anomaly or anomalous". We updated the description to indicate this. > > typedef te-bandwidth { > type string { > pattern > '0[xX](0((\.0?)?[pP](\+)?0?|(\.0?))|' > + '1(\.([\da-fA-F]{0,5}[02468aAcCeE]?)?)?[pP](\+)?(12[0-7]|' > + '1[01]\d|0?\d?\d)?)|0[xX][\da-fA-F]{1,8}|\d+' > + '(,(0[xX](0((\.0?)?[pP](\+)?0?|(\.0?))|' > + '1(\.([\da-fA-F]{0,5}[02468aAcCeE]?)?)?[pP](\+)?(12[0-7]|' > + '1[01]\d|0?\d?\d)?)|0[xX][\da-fA-F]{1,8}|\d+))*'; > } > > Can the document shepherd please report what validation has been done > for this pattern? > > For packet switching type, a float number is used, such as > 0x1p10. > > What kind of units are implied for this (and the other types)? > [TS]: An answer was given earlier, let us know if that clarifies. > > typedef te-metric { > type uint32; > description "TE link metric"; > reference "RFC3785"; > > [same comment about "link metric" and 3785] > [TS]: Addressed. > > typedef te-node-id { > type yang:dotted-quad; > description > "A type representing the identifier for a node in a TE > topology. > The identifier is represented as 32-bit unsigned integer in > the dotted-quad notation. > > [same comment about uint32 vs. dotted-quad] > [TS]: Addressed. > > typedef te-oper-status { > [...] > > Is there some way (a grouping?) to deduplicate the admin and operational > status enumerations? They seem to be nearly identical in terms of the > range of possible values. > [TS]: Yes, created a common type and referenced it the respective typedefs. > > identity se-style-desired { > [...] > > (et seq) The rtgdir's comments about whether 'base' should be present > seems relevant for these as well. > [TS]: thanks for pointing it out, added the missing base. > > identity oob-mapping-flag { > [....] > identity entropy-label-capability { > > Are all of the flags based on lsp-attributes-flags supposed to be > "desired" in the description (these aren't)? > [TS]: These identities simply indicate the LSP attributes. Every flag has its own semantics. The respective RFCs describe whether any action is to be taken by nodes along the LSP path. > > identity oam-mep-entity-desired { > base lsp-attributes-flags; > description "OAM MEP entities desired"; > > We probably should expand Maintenance Entity Group End Point (and MIP, > below). > [TS]: expanded. > > identity loopback-desired { > base lsp-attributes-flags; > description > "This flag indicates a particular node on the LSP is > required to enter loopback mode. This can also be > > Is there a mismatch between "desired" and "required"? > [TS]: yes, RFC7571 uses the term "required" (as we have in description). We renamed the identity to be in sync with the RFC. > OLD: > identity loopback-desired { > NEW: > identity loopback-required { > > identity rtm-set-desired { > base lsp-attributes-flags; > description > "Residence Time Measurement (RTM) attribute flag"; > > Is there a mismatch regarding "desired" in the identity name vs. > description? > [TS]: RFC 8169 section 4.4 uses "requested" - we think this can be equated to desired. > > .. indicates to the egress node that RTM is requested > > > updated: > NEW: > identity rtm-set-desired { > description > "Residence Time Measurement (RTM) attribute flag requested"; > > > > identity link-protection-type { > description "Base identity for link protection type."; > } > identity link-protection-unprotected { > base link-protection-type; > > [I assume the WG had some good discussion about identities vs. > enumeration and don't want to second-guess that.] > [TS]: yes, this was discussed and the choice was to pick identities over enums for extensibility. We used enums in places where extensions were not expected. > > identity association-type-recovery { > base association-type; > description > "Association Type Recovery used to association LSPs of > same tunnel for recovery"; > > nit: the grammar seems weird, here; maybe a missing word? > [TS]: NEW: > "Association Type Recovery used to associate LSPs of > same tunnel for recovery"; > > identity path-locally-computed { > base path-computation-method; > description > "indicates a constrained-path LSP in which the > path is computed by the local LER"; > reference "RFC3209"; > > In line with the gen-art reviewer's comments, a section ref might be > useful here. > [TS]: Added references. > > identity path-externally-queried { > base path-computation-method; > description > [...] > to the external source to aid computation); and the path that is > returned by the external source is not required to provide a > wholly resolved path back to the originating system - that is to > say, some local computation may also be required"; > > nit: "provide a wholly resolved path back to the originating system" > could potentially be read ambiguously about whether "back to the > originating system refers to the path or where the (partial) result is > returned to. > [TS]: reworded: > NEW: > ..................................................................................... The path that is > returned by the external source may require further local > computation on the device."; > > > identity te-tunnel-type { > [...] > > There is no need for a mp2p or mp2mp tunnel type? > > identity tunnel-state-type { > description > "Base identity for TE tunnel states"; > [TS]: no, none standardized for TE exists as of yet. > > This is just "tunnel state" not "operational state"? > > identity lsp-state-type { > description > "Base identity for TE LSP states"; > > Is there a state machine for which transitions between states based on > this identity are allowed, or is it basically just a full mesh? > [TS]: we've only modelled possible state outputs. There is no standard state-machine. Implementations may execute a state-machine for transitions, but we did not think it needs to be covered by the model. > > identity path-invalidation-action-drop-tear { > base path-invalidation-action-type; > description > "TE path invalidation action tear"; > > Is there a reference for this (or the other > path-invalidation-action-type)? My naive reading wants to complete it > to "teardown" but I have low confidence that is correct. > [TS]: renamed identity 'teardown' and added reference to RFC3209 section 2.5 talks about these general principles. > > identity path-metric-optimize-includes { > [...] > identity path-metric-optimize-excludes { > base path-metric-type; > description > "A metric that optimizes the number of excluded resources > specified in a set"; > > optimizes to minimize or maximize it? > [TS]: Update to: > NEW: > "A metric that optimizes to a maximum the number of excluded resources > specified in a set"; > > grouping performance-metrics-one-way-bandwidth { > [....] > > What are the units on the bandwidth values herein? bits per second? > [TS]: The type bandwidth-ieee-float32 is defined in RFC8294. The expected units are bytes per second (this is also inline with rfc3630 and rfc5305#section-3.6). I note that RFC 5305 even feels a need for a parenthetical: "units are bytes (not bits!) per second". To me, the risk/reward is clearly in favor of being explicit. > container threshold-accelerated-advertisement { > description > "When the difference between the last advertised value and > current measured value exceed this threshold, anomalous > announcement will be triggered."; > uses performance-metrics-thresholds; > > Are we reusing the performance-metrics-threshold container, which up > until now has been used for absolute measurements, to hold the > corresponding relative values (differences)? > [TS]: yes, but these are currently defined as absolute threshold values - not differences/relative. The "difference between the last advertised value and current measured value" is a difference with respect to a baseline, which, while still measured in the same units, is qualitatively different than an absolute value (i.e., against zero baseline). The difference is much smaller than when we go to a percentage difference, where the units change, but the semantics are slightly different. Anyway, it sounds like you don't think there is a problem here, so I can accpet that. > grouping optimization-metric-entry { > [...] > leaf weight { > > Where is the sense of the 'weight' leaf defined? That is, to larger > weight values get more traffic or less traffic? > [TS]: this weight is input to optimization function when trying to optimize for multiple metrics. A higher weight signifies a more important metric when trying to find optimal path. What reference chain can the reader follow to learn this fact? > container path-srlgs-names { > [...] > leaf-list names { > type string; > description "List named SRLGs"; > > nit: missing "of"? > [TS]: updated. > > grouping generic-path-disjointness { > description "Path disjointness grouping"; > leaf disjointness { > type te-path-disjointness; > description > "The type of resource disjointness. > Under primary path, disjointness level applies to > all secondary LSPs. Under secondary, disjointness > level overrides the one under primary"; > > What does "under" mean? It seems like it has something to do with the > position in the hierarchy where this grouping gets instantiated, which > is potentially subtle. > [TS]: Reworded to clarify. > NEW: > "The type of resource disjointness. > When configured for a primary path, the disjointness level applies to > all secondary LSPs. When configured for a secondary path, disjointness > level overrides the one configured for the primary path"; > > container path-properties { > config false; > [...] > container path-route-objects { > description > "Container for the list of route objects either returned by > the computation engine or actually used by an LSP"; > list path-route-object { > key index; > ordered-by user; > > (How do 'config false' and 'ordered-by user' interact?) > [TS]: We discussed this within the authors. We think ‘ordered-by user’ for config false leafs will be ignored -- and hence would fallback to the default (‘ordered-by system’) as per RFC6020. Note, we think this is a common behavior that affect NMDA model(s) when extracting applied configuration. Please correct our thinking if this is not true and we’ll try to address it. I have essentially no domain knowledge on this point; we'd need to call in some outside expert if we feel an authoritative answer is important. Thanks for the updates, Ben > > > Section 5 > > grouping performance-metrics-attributes-packet { > [...] > uses te-types:performance-metrics-attributes { > augment performance-metrics-one-way { > leaf one-way-min-delay { > [...] > leaf one-way-max-delay { > > What kind of sanity or error checking is there for the nodes in this > model, e.g., if max delay is configured to be smaller than min delay? > [TS]: these are measured values over a time period and maintained as state. The minimum/maximum being over the last period. > > leaf one-way-delay-variation { > type uint32 { > range 0..16777215; > } > description "One-way delay variation in micro seconds."; > > What does "variation" mean? Deviation from mean? Variance? Mean > absolute error? > [TS]: This attempts to model the parameters as described in RFC7823 (including delay variation/jitter). > > leaf one-way-packet-loss { > type decimal64 { > fraction-digits 6; > range "0 .. 50.331642"; > > Is there a reason for the oddly specific upper limit? > [TS]: this is described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7810#section-4.4 . Updated the description and reference to indicate this. > “Link Loss: This 24-bit field carries link packet loss as a percentage > of the total traffic sent over a configurable interval. The basic > unit is 0.000003%, where (2^24 - 2) is 50.331642%. “ > > > I also can't quite convince myself from the RFC 7950 grammar whether the > quotes on the range are valid and/or needed. > [TS]: RF7950 expects a string for the range argument - so it's OK. Also, made it consistent across the modules > > I also am unsure as to how useful the "normality" is for some of these, > like the packet loss and delay-variation values. > [TS]: RFC7823 suggests possible utility of those values. > > Regards, > Tarek > > [same comments about two-way metrics as one-way metrics, I think. > Also the -packet variants.] > > Section 7 > > We probably could say more here if we want, though I'm as-yet decided on > whether we should. > That is, things like editing the config could cause traffic to be > disallowed, routed on suboptimal paths, routed through locations more > easily targeted for other purposes, etc., and reading config/status > could reveal information about network topology, which sites might be > most sensitive as targets for subsequent attacks, etc.. It's less clear > if there's much that would allow for identification of specific > users/customers or their traffic, though. Maybe some of the DSCP stuff, > in some cases. > > Section 10.2 > > A question for the responsible AD: do references that are used in > "reference" statements need to be normative references? (E.g., RFC > 3471.) > > > > From nobody Tue Oct 8 19:36:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088B412006D; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 19:36:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.105.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <157058858095.30443.12195158790275290959@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 19:36:21 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 02:36:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Xiaohong Huang Caixia Kou Zhenqiang Li Penghui Mi Filename : draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2019-10-08 Abstract: Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) performance assurance are emerging within the service provider network. While there are various technology solutions, there is no one solution which can fulfill these requirements for a native IP network. One universal (E2E) solution which can cover both intra-domain and inter-domain scenarios is needed. One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution is the addition of central control in a native IP network. This document describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when applying the Path Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control technology. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Oct 8 20:33:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA001200FE; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 20:33:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V0deQR5V4MoA; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 20:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D081200F5; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 20:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 7F9CD661733; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:33:27 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'The IESG'" , , , "'Alvaro Retana'" , , , Cc: , References: <157058858095.30443.12195158790275290959@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157058858095.30443.12195158790275290959@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:33:26 +0800 Message-ID: <005b01d57e52$503b76b0$f0b26410$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01D57E95.5E5EB6B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdV+SmaFz0QY2F80Q1mGFRZ68a9V9gAADMZA Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VKSUNLS0tJTkJIQkJPSk9ZV1koWU FKTEtLSjdXWS1ZQUlXWQkOFx4IWUFZNTQpNjo3JCkuNz5ZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6OUk6EDo5EDlNGU4iNSwMMkkV Sy4wFCpVSlVKTkxLTkJJS0pISk1KVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWVdZCAFZQUlJQk9CNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6dae9426b89373kuws7f9cd661733 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgSS1EIEFjdGlvbjogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10?= =?utf-8?q?eas-native-ip-scenarios-10=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 03:33:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01D57E95.5E5EB6B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Folks: =20 We have updated the draft, try to resolve and respond the comments from = experts review. The updated contents mainly are the followings: +Add the description of the relationship between this draft and other = two related drafts[in Section 1], which has been explained several times = in previous responding mail. +Add the description for Figure 1 to explain more clearly the CCDR = scenario 3.1 [as Benjamin Kaduk commented ] +Correlate accurately the link between the scenarios(3.1, 3.4) and the = simulation results(4.4, 4.5).[as Romain Danyliw commented] +Explain in more detail that the background of simulated topology and = traffic matrix. [as Romain Danyliw commented] +Add more description for the CCDR deployment consideration to let the = reader has one overall viewpoint of the deployment. But the related = information gathering method is out of scope of this document. [as = Romain Danyliw commented] +Add more contents for =E2=80=9CSecurity Consideration=E2=80=9D part. = [as Alvaro Retana suggested]. +Reference explicitly to the published paper is added, which is from the = same research group/project. +Add description that ISIS is also suitable for this simulation = comparison, because it also use Dijstra=E2=80=99s algorithm.[as = =C3=89ric Vyncke commented] +Some editorial nits are cleared. [as Benjamin Kaduk commented ] =20 Trying to using the XML2RFC v3 to include SVG format graph, but not = succeed. Will try later when I am familiar with the new features. =20 Wish all the above updates can meet your concerns and comments for this = draft. Thanks again for your review. Wish to get your support for its = publication. =20 Thanks in advance. =20 =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: teas-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = internet-drafts@ietf.org =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5 = 10:36 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: i-d-announce@ietf.org =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: teas@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Teas] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt =20 =20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and = Signaling WG of the IETF. =20 Title : Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in = Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Xiaohong Huang Caixia Kou Zhenqiang Li Penghui Mi Filename : draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2019-10-08 =20 Abstract: Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) performance assurance are emerging within the service provider network. While there are various technology solutions, there is no one solution which can fulfill these requirements for a native IP network. One universal (E2E) solution which can cover both intra-domain and inter-domain scenarios is needed. =20 One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution is the addition of central control in a native IP network. This document describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when applying the Path Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control technology. =20 =20 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ =20 There are also htmlized versions available at: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10 = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios= -10 =20 A diff from the previous version is available at: = = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-1= 0 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. =20 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: = ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ =20 _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01D57E95.5E5EB6B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = Folks:

 

We have updated the draft, try to resolve and respond the = comments from experts review. The updated contents mainly are the = followings:

+Add the description of the relationship between this draft = and other two related drafts[in Section 1], which has been explained = several times in previous responding mail.

+Add the description for Figure = 1 to explain more clearly the CCDR scenario 3.1 [as Benjamin Kaduk = commented ]

+Correlate accurately the link between the scenarios(3.1, = 3.4) and the simulation results(4.4, 4.5).[as Romain Danyliw = commented]

+Explain in more detail that the background of simulated = topology and traffic matrix. [as Romain Danyliw = commented]

+Add more description for the CCDR deployment consideration = to let the reader has one overall viewpoint of the deployment. But the = related information gathering method is out of scope of this document. = [as Romain Danyliw commented]

+Add more contents for = =E2=80=9CSecurity = Consideration=E2=80=9D part. [as Alvaro Retana = suggested].

+Reference explicitly to the published paper is added, = which is from the same research group/project.

+Add description that ISIS is = also suitable for this simulation comparison, because it also use = Dijstra=E2=80=99s algorithm.[as =C3=89ric Vyncke commented]

+Some editorial nits are = cleared. [as Benjamin Kaduk commented ]

 

Trying to using the XML2RFC v3 = to include SVG format graph, but not succeed. Will try later when I am = familiar with the new features.

 

Wish all the above updates can = meet your concerns and comments for this draft.

Thanks again for your review. = Wish to get your support for its publication.

 

Thanks in = advance.

 

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

China = Telecom

 

 

 

 

 

-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB= =B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: teas-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 internet-drafts@ietf.org
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4: 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5 10:36
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: i-d-announce@ietf.org
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: teas@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Teas] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt

 

 

A New Internet-Draft is = available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories.

This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering = Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Title=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : = Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in Native IP = Network

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Authors=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : Aijun = Wang

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Xiaohong = Huang

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Caixia Kou

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Zhenqiang Li

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Penghui Mi

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Filename=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : = draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.txt

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Pages=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : = 17

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Date=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : = 2019-10-08

 

Abstract:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requirements for = providing the End to End(E2E) performance = assurance

=C2=A0=C2=A0 are emerging within the service provider = network.=C2=A0 While there are

=C2=A0=C2=A0 various technology = solutions, there is no one solution which can

=C2=A0=C2=A0 fulfill these = requirements for a native IP network.=C2=A0 One = universal

=C2=A0=C2=A0 (E2E) solution which can cover both = intra-domain and inter-domain

=C2=A0=C2=A0 scenarios is = needed.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution = is the addition of

=C2=A0=C2=A0 central control in a native IP network.=C2=A0 = This document describes

=C2=A0=C2=A0 various complex = scenarios and simulation results when applying = the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Path Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP = network.=C2=A0 This

=C2=A0=C2=A0 solution, referred to as Centralized Control = Dynamic Routing (CCDR),

=C2=A0=C2=A0 integrates the = advantage of using distributed protocols and the = power

=C2=A0=C2=A0 of a centralized control = technology.

 

 

The IETF datatracker status page for this draft = is:

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/=

 

There are also htmlized versions available = at:

https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10=

 

A diff from the previous version is available = at:

https://www.ietf.org/rfcd= iff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10

 

 

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org.

 

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP = at:

ftp://ftp.ietf.org/intern= et-drafts/

 

_______________________________________________

Teas mailing = list

Teas@ietf.org<= o:p>

https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/teas

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"teas@ietf.org" , Anton Snitser Message-ID: <2022179508.357497.1571753131017@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_357496_939228142.1571753131017" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14593 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Te-topology and te data models questions X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 14:05:44 -0000 ------=_Part_357496_939228142.1571753131017 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_357480_1002691930.1571753130295" ------=_Part_357480_1002691930.1571753130295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Anton, Thank you for the interest, review and questions Please, find in line. Cheers, Igor On Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 6:55:07 AM EDT, Anton Snitser wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hello everyone, =20 =C2=A0 =20 Name is Anton, am a systems engineer from Sedona systems. =20 =C2=A0 =20 I have been reviewing the ietf-te.yang and ietf-te-topology.yang data model= s as well as their various augmentations and I had a few questions regardin= g how they are meant to be used when representing native network state and = managed objects. Not sure if this Is the correct email group. Saw it in the= drafts, decided to try. =20 =C2=A0 =20 - What is the usage scope of transitional links? =E2=80=93 it is meant t= o represent an inter-layer transition between different layers, but as peC = the diagrams In the drafts I have only seen it being used in the same =20 - =20 - =C2=A0IB>>Correct. Transitional link is a special link modeling an int= er-layer relationship. Specifically, it connects a client layer LTP with a = server layer TTP and may articulate a cost of adding additional links in th= e server layer to satisfy=C2=A0 path computation request in the client laye= r. Transitional link is only useful=C2=A0 in multi-layer computations. Alte= rnative to transitional link is inter-layer lock. - =20 - Can transitional links be used inter layer to describe a cross-layer-l= ink in a technology disaggregated environment? E.g., a router port <-> OTN = client-port and subsequently the OTN to WDM cross-layer-links. consider eac= h layer node as a separate physical node e.g., physical router, OTN switch = and WDM node =20 - =20 - IB>> No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE link an= d belongs to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (where OTN t= o WDM adaptation actually occurs) =20 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Consider the following. =20 Is it possible to describe a link where a source node:tp from the IP topol= ogy and a destination node:tp from the OTN/WDM topology create a transition= al link. IB>> No, see above =20 =C2=A0 =20 - Are there strict guidelines on how a TTP should be modeled? In the dra= fts it is mentioned a TTP can be an OCH transponder in the WDM topology. Wh= at about OTN and IP? What are the rules used to designate a physical/logica= l entity as a TTP or non-TTP entity? =20 - Can an IP loopback on routers be considered a TTP? If not then what is= a TTP in the IP layer? - What is a TTP in the OTN layer? Is it the framing module in the switch= ? =20 - IB>> TTP, generally speaking,=C2=A0 represents a device inside a TE no= de where a particular client-server layer adaptation (different in some way= from other client-layer adaptations in the same node) occurs.=C2=A0 Normal= ly, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite TTPs, unless it is an abstract no= de, in which case the TTP may indicate, for example,=C2=A0 the physical rou= ter where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates. =20 =C2=A0 =20 - The figures are missing from thetutorial draft. Is there a reference i= mplementation document somewhere? =20 =20 =C2=A0 =20 - I have more questions, but I wanted to start slow.. to see there I get= an ACK response. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thank you very much to whoever answers! =20 Brgrds =20 =C2=A0 =20 =20 Anton Snizar | Systems Engineer=E2=80=A8 =20 m: +972-504042744 =20 e: antons@sedonasys.com =20 w: sedonasys.com =20 l: Linkedin =20 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas =20 ------=_Part_357480_1002691930.1571753130295 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Anton,

Thank you for the interest, review and que= stions Please, find in line.

=
Cheers,
Igor

=20
=20
On Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 6:55:07 AM EDT, Anton Sni= tser <antons@sedonasys.com> wrote:


=20 =20

Hello everyone,

=20

 

=20

Name is Anton, am a systems engineer from Sedona systems.

= =20

 

=20

I have been reviewing the ietf-te.yang and ietf-te-topology.yang data= models as well as their various augmentations and I had a few questions re= garding how they are meant to be used when representing native network state and managed objects. Not sure if this Is the correct email g= roup. Saw it in the drafts, decided to try.

=20

 

=20
  1. What is the usage scope of transit= ional links? =E2=80=93 it is meant to represent an inter-layer transition b= etween different layers, but as peC the diagrams In the drafts I have only seen it being used in the same
    2. <= li class=3D"ydp3a08b0b9yiv7390483011MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:= 0cm;">
  2.  IB>>Correct. Transitional link is a spec= ial link modeling an inter-layer relationship. Specifically, it connects a = client layer LTP with a server layer TTP and may articulate a cost of addin= g additional links in the server layer to satisfy  path computation re= quest in the client layer. Transitional link is only useful  in multi-= layer computations. Alternative to transitional link is inter-layer lock.

  4. <= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;">Can transitional links be used inter layer= to describe a cross-layer-link in a technology disaggregated environment? = E.g., a router port <-> OTN client-port and subsequently the OTN to W= DM cross-layer-links. consider each layer node as a separate physical node e.g., physical router= , OTN switch and WDM node

  6. IB>>= No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE link and belongs= to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (where OTN to WDM ada= ptation actually occurs)


=20

 

=20

Consider the following.

=20

=20
Is it possible to describe a link whe= re a source node:tp from the IP topology and a destination node:tp from the= OTN/WDM topology create a transitional link. IB>> No, see above
<= /span>
=20

 

=20
  1. Are there strict guidelines on how= a TTP should be modeled? In the drafts it is mentioned a TTP can be an OCH= transponder in the WDM topology. What about OTN and IP? What are the rules used to designate a physical/logical entity= as a TTP or non-TTP entity?
    1. Can an IP loopback on routers be c= onsidered a TTP? If not then what is a TTP in the IP layer?
    2. What is a TTP in the O= TN layer? Is it the framing module in the switch?
  2. IB= >> TTP, generally speaking,  represents a device inside a TE nod= e where a particular client-server layer adaptation (different in some way = from other client-layer adaptations in the same node) occurs.  Normall= y, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite TTPs, unless it is an abstract nod= e, in which case the TTP may indicate, for example,  the physical rout= er where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates.
    3. =20

 

=20
  1. The figures are missing from the tutorial draft. Is there a reference implementation document somewhere?=
=20

 

=20
  1. I have more questions, but I wante= d to start slow.. to see there I get an ACK response.
=20

 

=20

 

=20

Thank you very much to whoever answers!

=20

Brgrds

=20

 

=20

=3D"id:image001.png@01D3D4EC.AFD81260"

=20

Anton Snizar | Systems Engineer= =E2=80=A8

=20

m: +972-504042744

=20

e: antons@sedonasys.com

= =20

w: sedonasys.com

=20

l: Linkedin

=20

 

=20
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list<= br>Teas= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= /a>
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ZzKs6sUes77lmKUzJV1noM75CwUxomWUgwTPzUYthCIU_HXNorcO6sIr92bU4RGnw1QbUnclnFZy OsYmX126L5rTM2LGktKYlOQRjwj21isLbIV.sEPX7dQ3YtmOdDzvqlQf7XamvIPeCmbOA5P6K9SG ycc8kbKgc_BM1wszSw9JASAFvIfscaMk9fd6WSzi74wtJs10czUp8WwL373WCafkBKkTgs7HU2rP oY6zrjjMAqD9pES_uCwXHPvR.bEvqq1YdN7uBeGfYgOniEU0IEVuLRzfVUph.fuQbc9AcgnzTKww cbjv6ZUkTMD4Sa8HyTn3_yfe5O1bFenEc.PunJPDr0asXC3SKSHD7bwsBqCIA8qyT0IEETDFD5TE RATrsvHNtU1tjSzgHlkXnI9FFJ3NKH51ws9z6jCmrJntUqpA1l8Z4ipRU_1I9ykhbxQy.0FeyXu4 4UNG229P17VATbGavMc502VjIkvOz.J6qYQ3VsyLwS8o4CAaKrMYM3apcchdKhAcXDf2w5rMPQ6A _WN3W6eKBxmTOzvC3sLMlHOCGJIcB8EeyaGrUW2iZDaxLSztW5s04Lzq0yHz64gOmjusvsWn3ehK WxOJ7bjsGoMnK_4osVJ9uOJi2DT0_ZUWfNtNIibUah1J4wKbqAtAuR8FETQPXYVKJktmd.4ndthN bEdaDdwOD0cvqp8cwkbsnbm2i7TLdwUy.Wr2l4najBUynv9gut4OSlwrFpMqyBFJAH05pk9RzazP PukC1dOFehi0TwErsm1yulvumFMgSg1n_ThbJd.NLTaZwiim.gsMfxynXrSTtaaNFfKM0H_Q7P2U CXXUxM3bgTACrmGWXZTQ8CnJUIuYMKLFJsNGZoaY95WIrZZGipFIvZSGALLkZqIudrC8W_FgCsnv 743vVJms.nz6S Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:58:19 +0000 Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:57:44 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Bryskin To: "teas@ietf.org" , Anton Snitser Message-ID: <885850222.974016.1571839064631@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <95D8350C-7BC7-4D5C-8558-B94023E3513F@sedonasys.com> References: <2022179508.357497.1571753131017@mail.yahoo.com> <95D8350C-7BC7-4D5C-8558-B94023E3513F@sedonasys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_974015_1140155049.1571839064631" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14593 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Te-topology and te data models questions X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:58:23 -0000 ------=_Part_974015_1140155049.1571839064631 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_974012_532507095.1571839064428" ------=_Part_974012_532507095.1571839064428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Anton, Please, see my further responses in line. Igor =20 On Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 9:19:28 AM EDT, Anton Snitser wrote: =20 =20 =20 Hi Igor, =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thank you for the prompt reply. Will sum up your responses here to referenc= e. =20 Thank you for taking the time to respond! =20 =C2=A0 =20 General question =E2=80=93 is this distribution ok with this much chatter? = Or should we limit? =20 =C2=A0 =20 - IB >> Correct. Transitional link is a special link modeling an inter-l= ayer relationship. Specifically, it connects a client layer LTP with a serv= er layer TTP and may articulate a cost of adding additional links in the se= rver layer to satisfy=C2=A0 path computation request in the client layer. T= ransitional link is only useful=C2=A0 in multi-layer computations. Alternat= ive to transitional link is inter-layer lock. [AS] to avoid confusion on my part, in the draft it states it connects cli= ent layer LTP to server layer LTP. Is that correct? Or your=E2=80=9Cit conn= ects a client layer LTP with a server layer TTP=E2=80=9Dis the correct inte= rpretation? =C2=A0 IB>> The latter, c-ltp<=3D>s-ttp =20 - IB >> No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE link a= nd belongs to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (where OTN = to WDM adaptation actually occurs) [AS] is there no adaptation done in the OTN device as well? IB>> Yes, but in a different layer, i.e. IP-Ethernet LTP <=3D>OTN TTP ( thi= s is totally different client-server relationship that could be described b= y a separate transitional link located inside IP/OTN device =C2=A0Taking the IP Ethernet frame adapting to ODU? Or a transitional-link = can only occur in the WDM device? IB>> No, TL can describe any client-server adaptation =20 =C2=A0 =20 - IB >> TTP, generally speaking,=C2=A0 represents a device inside a TE n= ode where a particular client-server layer adaptation (different in some wa= y from other client-layer adaptations in the same node) occurs.=C2=A0 Norma= lly, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite TTPs, unless it is an abstract n= ode, in which case the TTP may indicate, for example,=C2=A0 the physical ro= uter where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates. [AS] ok understood, but in any case if supposedly one needs to portray a n= ative topology of IP routers how does one describe the TTP? Asking because = in one supporting data model ietf-te for management and maintenance of TE-T= unnels (where tunnels can be IP/MPLS LSPs, ODU Tunnels, OCH/OTSi Tunnels) T= TPs are used as src and dst. in an IP topology what would those TTPs be? Th= e devices/routers themselves? IB>> In the te-tunnel model src /dst TTPs are optional and could be omitted= , as usually the case in IP-TE layer. In other words, IP te-tunnels are sim= ply terminated on src/dst IP te-nodes =20 =C2=A0 =20 - [AS] I have some assumptions based on the existing data modules produc= ed from both TEAS and I2RS, wondering if you can confirm on them and shed s= ome light. Apologies in advance if questions refer to data models produced = in other WG, maybe you can answer to the best you know. =20 - Te-topo and augmentations of te-topo are not necessarily used for pure= topology depiction for generic purposes. Its main goal is to allow a clien= t to have an abstracted understanding of the network to complete path compu= tation and path setup if necessary. Correct? IB>> Correct, the main purpose= is to enable TE path computations =20 - Referring back to a. when I mean pure topology discovery, I mean somet= imes a client will need to have a complete view of topology down to port to= port connectivity through all the layers to understand traffic patterns an= d complete physical path routes. This is not part of the mandate of te-topo= right? IB>> Disagree. te-topo model allows for hierarchical representation of a mu= lti-layer network, including the inter-layer relationships. This allows for= single- and multi-layer path computations =20 - The way I2RS data models are portraying multi-layer topology relation = is by using supporting-network/node/link/ltp attributes whereas in TEAS dat= a models these same attributes are used more in order to show relation betw= een nodes in case abstraction is used to show node within node. is this the= same to your knowledge? IB>> Disagree. te-topo model augments the i2rs model, but goes far further = in describing the inter-layer relationships, such as client-server adaptati= ons. =20 - If all of the above are somewhat true and the mandate for the TEAS WG = is to provide =E2=80=9Cjust enough=E2=80=9D topology data (nativeor otherwi= se) across layers IP/OTN/WDM to be able to compute paths and set them up th= en there should be another set of augmentations (one for each technology la= yer including OTN and WDM) to provide native topology data model =E2=80=93 = similar to the tech specific l2 and l3 unicast topology augmentation which = came from I2RS. Correct?=20 IB>> i2rs model does not allow you to doTE path computations. For example, = it does not allow to describe various node and link properties and limitati= ons, hence do not allow for constraint based computations. I would not reco= mmend using i2rs model directly. If you want TE path computations (especial= ly multi-layer) you should use te-topo model family. If you need single lay= er reachability=C2=A0 computations you should=C2=A0 use models like l3-topo= logy. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Best regards! =20 =C2=A0 =20 From: Igor Bryskin Date: Tuesday, 22 October 2019 at 17:05 To: "teas@ietf.org" , Anton Snitser Subject: Re: [Teas] Te-topology and te data models questions =20 =C2=A0 =20 Hi Anton, =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thank you for the interest, review and questions Please, find in line. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Cheers, Igor =20 =C2=A0 =20 On Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 6:55:07 AM EDT, Anton Snitser wrote: =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Hello everyone, =20 =C2=A0 =20 Name is Anton, am a systems engineer from Sedona systems. =20 =C2=A0 =20 I have been reviewing the ietf-te.yang and ietf-te-topology.yang data model= s as well as their various augmentations and I had a few questions regardin= g how they are meant to be used when representing native network state and = managed objects. Not sure if this Is the correct email group. Saw it in the= drafts, decided to try. =20 =C2=A0 =20 - What is the usage scope of transitional links? =E2=80=93 it is meant t= o represent an inter-layer transition between different layers, but as peC = the diagrams In the drafts I have only seen it being used in the same - =C2=A0 - =C2=A0IB>>Correct. Transitional link is a special link modeling an int= er-layer relationship. Specifically, it connects a client layer LTP with a = server layer TTP and may articulate a cost of adding additional links in th= e server layer to satisfy=C2=A0 path computation request in the client laye= r. Transitional link is only useful=C2=A0 in multi-layer computations. Alte= rnative to transitional link is inter-layer lock. - =C2=A0 - Can transitional links be used inter layer to describe a cross-layer-l= ink in a technology disaggregated environment? E.g., a router port <-> OTN = client-port and subsequently the OTN to WDM cross-layer-links. consider eac= h layer node as a separate physical node e.g., physical router, OTN switch = and WDM node - =C2=A0 - IB>> No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE link an= d belongs to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (where OTN t= o WDM adaptation actually occurs) =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Consider the following. =20 =20 Is it possible to describe a link where a source node:tp from the IP topolo= gy and a destination node:tp from the OTN/WDM topology create a transitiona= l link. IB>> No, see above =20 =C2=A0 =20 - Are there strict guidelines on how a TTP should be modeled? In the dra= fts it is mentioned a TTP can be an OCH transponder in the WDM topology. Wh= at about OTN and IP? What are the rules used to designate a physical/logica= l entity as a TTP or non-TTP entity? =20 =20 - Can an IP loopback on routers be considered a TTP? If not then what is= a TTP in the IP layer? - What is a TTP in the OTN layer? Is it the framing module in the switch= ? =20 - IB>> TTP, generally speaking,=C2=A0 represents a device inside a TE no= de where a particular client-server layer adaptation (different in some way= from other client-layer adaptations in the same node) occurs.=C2=A0 Normal= ly, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite TTPs, unless it is an abstract no= de, in which case the TTP may indicate, for example,=C2=A0 the physical rou= ter where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates. =20 =C2=A0 =20 - The figures are missing from the tutorial draft. Is there a reference = implementation document somewhere?=20 =20 =C2=A0 =20 - I have more questions, but I wanted to start slow.. to see there I get= an ACK response. =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thank you very much to whoever answers! =20 Brgrds =20 =C2=A0 =20 =20 Anton Snizar| Systems Engineer=E2=80=A8 =20 m: +972-504042744 =20 e:antons@sedonasys.com =20 w:sedonasys.com =20 l:Linkedin =20 =C2=A0 =20 _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas =20 ------=_Part_974012_532507095.1571839064428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Anton,

Please, see my further responses in line.
Igor
<= /div>


=20
=20
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019, 9:19:28 AM EDT, Anton S= nitser <antons@sedonasys.com> wrote:


Hi Igor,

=20

 

=20

Thank you for the prompt rep= ly. Will sum up your responses here to reference.

=20

Thank you for taking the time to respond!

=20

 

=20

General question =E2=80=93 is this distribution ok with this much chatter?= Or should we limit?

=20

 

=20
  1. IB >&g= t; Correct. Transitional link is a special link modeling an inter-layer rel= ationship. Specifically, it connects a client layer LTP with a server layer TTP and may articulate a cost of adding addi= tional links in the server layer to satisfy  path computation request = in the client layer. Transitional link is only useful  in multi-layer = computations. Alternative to transitional link is inter-layer lock.
=20
[AS] to avoid confusion on my part, in the draft it states it conne= cts client layer LTP to server layer LTP. Is that correct? Or your =E2=80=9Cit connects a client layer LTP with a server layer TT= P=E2=80=9D is the correct interpretation?
=20
  IB>> T= he latter, c-ltp<=3D>s-ttp

=20
  1. IB >&g= t; No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE link and belon= gs to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (where OTN to WDM adaptation actually occurs)
= =20
[AS] is there no adaptation done in the OTN = device as well?
IB>> Yes, b= ut in a different layer, i.e. IP-Ethernet LTP <=3D>OTN TTP ( this is = totally different client-server relationship that could be described by a s= eparate transitional link located inside IP/OTN device

 Taking the IP Ethernet frame adap= ting to ODU? Or a transitional-link can only occur in the WDM device?

IB>> No, TL can = describe any client-server adaptation
=20

 

=20
  1. IB >> TTP, generally speaking,  represents a = device inside a TE node where a particular client-server layer adaptation (different in some way from other client-layer adaptations in t= he same node) occurs.  Normally, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite= TTPs, unless it is an abstract node, in which case the TTP may indicate, f= or example,  the physical router where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates.
= =20
[AS] ok understood, but in any case if supposedly one needs to port= ray a native topology of IP routers how does one describe the TTP? Asking b= ecause in one supporting data model ietf-te for management and maintenance of TE-Tunnels (where tunnels can be IP/MPLS LSPs, ODU Tunnels,= OCH/OTSi Tunnels) TTPs are used as src and dst. in an IP topology what wou= ld those TTPs be? The devices/routers themselves?

IB>> In the te-tunnel model src /dst TTPs a= re optional and could be omitted, as usually the case in IP-TE layer. In ot= her words, IP te-tunnels are simply terminated on src/dst IP te-nodes
=20

 

=20
  1. [AS] I have some assumptions based on the existing data modules= produced from both TEAS and I2RS, wondering if you can confirm on them and= shed some light. Apologies in advance if questions refer to data models produced in other W= G, maybe you can answer to the best you know.
=20
  1. Te-topo and augmentations of te-topo are not necessarily used for pure topo= logy depiction for generic purposes. Its main goal is to allow a client to = have an abstracted understanding of the network to complete path computatio= n and path setup if necessary. Correct? IB>> Correct, the main purpos= e is to enable TE path computations


  1. Referring back to a. when I mean pure topology discovery, I mean sometimes = a client will need to have a complete view of topology down to port to port= connectivity through all the layers to understand traffic patterns and com= plete physical path routes. This is not part of the mandate of te-topo right?
IB>> Disa= gree. te-topo model allows for hierarchical representation of a multi-layer= network, including the inter-layer relationships. This allows for single- = and multi-layer path computations


    <= li class=3D"ydp7af76dbcyiv8858854173MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:red;ma= rgin-left:18.0pt;"> The way I2RS data models are portraying multi-layer topology relation is by= using supporting-network/node/link/ltp attributes whereas in TEAS data mod= els these same attributes are used more in order to show relation between n= odes in case abstraction is used to show node within node. is this the same to your knowledge?
IB>> Disagree. te-topo model augments the i2rs model, but goes far = further in describing the inter-layer relationships, such as client-server = adaptations.

  1. If all of the above are somewhat true and the mandate for the TEAS WG is to= provide =E2=80=9Cjust enough=E2=80=9D topology data (native or otherwise) across layers IP/OTN/WDM to be able to compute paths a= nd set them up then there should be another set of augmentations (one for e= ach technology layer including OTN and WDM) to provide native topology data= model =E2=80=93 similar to the tech specific l2 and l3 unicast topology augmentation which came from I2RS. Correct?
IB>> i2rs model does no= t allow you to doTE path computations. For example, it does not allow to de= scribe various node and link properties and limitations, hence do not allow= for constraint based computations. I would not recommend using i2rs model = directly. If you want TE path computations (especially multi-layer) you sho= uld use te-topo model family. If you need single layer reachability  c= omputations you should  use models like l3-topology.
=20

=  

=20

Best regards!

=20

 

=20

From: Igor Bryskin <i_bryskin@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, 22 October 2019 at 17:05
To: "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>, Anton Snitser <antons@= sedonasys.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] Te-topology and te data models questions<= /p>=20

 

=20

Hi Anton,

=20

 

=20

Thank you for the interest, review and questions Please, find in line= .

=20

 

=20

Cheers,
Igor

=20

 

=20

On Tuesday, October 22, 2019, 6:55:07 AM EDT, Anton Snitser <anton= s@sedonasys.com> wrote:

=20

 

=20

 

=20

Hello everyone,

=20

 

=20

Name is Anton, am a systems engineer from Sedona systems.

=20

 

=20

I have been reviewing the ietf-te.yang and ietf-te-topology.yang data mod= els as well as their various augmentations and I had a few questions regard= ing how they are meant to be used when representing native network state and manag= ed objects. Not sure if this Is the correct email group. Saw it in the draf= ts, decided to try.

=20

 

=20
  1. What is the usage scope of transitional links? =E2=80=93 it is meant = to represent an inter-layer transition between different layers, but as peC= the diagrams In the drafts I have only seen it being used in the same
  2.  
  3.  IB>>Correct. Transitional link is a special link modeling= an inter-layer relationship. Specifically, it connects a client layer LTP = with a server layer TTP and may articulate a cost of adding additional link= s in the server layer to satisfy  path computation request in the client layer= . Transitional link is only useful  in multi-layer computations. Alter= native to transitional link is inter-layer lock.
  4.  
  5. Can transitional links be used inter layer to describe a cross-layer-= link in a technology disaggregated environment? E.g., a router port <-&g= t; OTN client-port and subsequently the OTN to WDM cross-layer-links. consi= der each layer node as a separate physical node e.g., physical router, OTN swi= tch and WDM node
  6.  
  7. IB>> No, in your case the link from the router is a regular TE = link and belongs to OTN, while transitional link is inside WDM device (wher= e OTN to WDM adaptation actually occurs)
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Consider the following.

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3D"cid:FXfQrsJTThIbe5xRDO6d"

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Is it possible to desc= ribe a link where a source node:tp from the IP topology and a destination n= ode:tp from the OTN/WDM topology create a transitional link. IB>> No,= see above

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  1. Are there strict guidelines on how a TTP should be modeled? In the dr= afts it is mentioned a TTP can be an OCH transponder in the WDM topology. W= hat about OTN and IP? What are the rules used to designate a physical/logic= al entity as a TTP or non-TTP entity?
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    1. Can an IP loopback on routers be considered a TTP? If not then what i= s a TTP in the IP layer?
    2. What is a TTP in the OTN layer? Is it the framing module in the switc= h?
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  1. IB>> TTP, generally speaking, = represents a device inside a TE node where a particular client-server laye= r adaptation (different in some way from other client-layer adaptations in = the same node) occurs.  Normally, IP layer TE nodes do not have/requite TTPs, unless it is an abst= ract node, in which case the TTP may indicate, for example,  the physi= cal router where TE tunnel (described on abstract IP topology) terminates.
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  1. The figures are missing from the tutorial draft. Is there a reference implementation document somewhere?=
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=20
  1. I have more questions, but I wanted to start slow.. to see there I ge= t an ACK response.
    2. =20

     

    =20

     

    =20

    Thank you very much to whoever answers!

    =20

    Brgrds

    =20

     

    =20

    3D"id:image001.png@01D3D4EC.AFD81260"=

    =20

    <= span>Anton Snizar | Systems Engineer=E2=80=A8

    =20

    m: +972-504042744

    =20

    e: antons@sedonasys.com

    =20

    w: sedonasys.com<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;">

    =20

    l: Linkedin

    =20

     

    =20

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
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2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4966B1200EC; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5B9GQPMHh9i; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com (mail-wm1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::329]) (using 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bh=nGDYQW4rcepnBKeyteBFHsI512AVtWNOlKVKGmZfs9Y=; b=kGQM9DlRYe5SdknyJtmztLxzFwJkC/jplul0pdPWebVlhro/o8SVT+dR6OzPI3jcVq Oyx+FCxQkx0fygOL0GoCvR4thcUqeHOJvA/n90G+i1REMAygBH3mWmA+TSNoiho6Fhg0 hkUJ+q8uu2AtQvlGEDxNY/Ow7n6e0zE4FZVbQGzDYEOrjL9j4Frdh3OuOavEWlCaDXQr iXW6PsVzE9wgfd6Nb3KfRYai6ivLPrdN1Dh7WHrrzXME7FX3kTjPU0ocn1H97whZ/oEW G+LiGIn5e/zFXyigALxYOhMMFogJx9Enj5/NGwNQQ+3dVPTMAtPRNgISDvs+LlzQtq7c i0nw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW2uU2naIjWUDmu1YvoYTsasPeJj7NRgCXfYbhbB3bMmXQ2pK83 6UKPwjilOzzCSFouFbTdUHoFxYOJFis0haGuBCcMoOTa X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx+taPDn8BsxlXzXChV0UMJ9Bn8Ti6ICoawgAzPWn31GWXcS0rBg67maxxXrVZDTIkqy4mctCRsCqjl+FdU7dg= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f201:: with SMTP id s1mr1536224wmc.59.1571864131322; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 13:55:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Matt Hartley Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:55:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ecb6e05959a2309" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Agenda requests for Singapore X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:55:35 -0000 --0000000000002ecb6e05959a2309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, The IETF draft agenda for Singapore is out - you can find it at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/agenda. That means it's time for us to start putting our own agenda together. We have two sessions, both on Tuesday November 19: Tuesday Afternoon session 1: 13:30 - 1500 Tuesday afternoon session 3: 17:10 - 18:40 Please send slot requests to me and the Chairs by the end of the day on Friday November 1st (that's the end of next week). We'll need details of the draft(s), speaker and how long you need. Cheers Matt/Lou/Pavan Important dates: 2019-10-25 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. 2019-11-04 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59. Upload using the ID Submission Tool. 2019-11-04 (Monday): Standard rate registration and payment cut-off at UTC 23:59.. 2019-11-06 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2019-11-11 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59. 2019-11-11 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2019-12-13 (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. 2020-01-06 (Monday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date by UTC 23:59. --0000000000002ecb6e05959a2309 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

The IETF draft agenda f= or Singapore is out - you can find it at=20 https://datatra= cker.ietf.org/meeting/106/agenda.

That means i= t's time for us to start putting our own agenda together. We have two s= essions, both on Tuesday November 19:
Tuesday Afternoon sess= ion 1: 13:30 - 1500
Tuesday afternoon session 3: 17:10 - 18:= 40

Please send slot requests to me and the Chairs = by the end of the day on Friday November 1st (that's the end of next we= ek). We'll need details of the draft(s), speaker and how long you need.=

Cheers

Matt/Lou/Pava= n

Important dates:
2019-10-25 (Friday): Fina=
l agenda to be published.
2019-11-04 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, inc=
luding -00) by UTC 23:59. Upload using the ID Submission Tool.
2019-11-04 (Monday): Standard rate registration and payment cut-off at UTC =
23:59..
2019-11-06 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Uploa=
d using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2019-11-11 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59.
2019-11-11 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload=
 using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2019-12-13 (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by UTC 23:59. Uploa=
d using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2020-01-06 (Monday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date by UTC =
23:59.

--0000000000002ecb6e05959a2309-- From nobody Thu Oct 24 17:19:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC8A120019; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dJ_fyL6Z2xIA; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 022FA12008B; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x9P0J0a0009588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 24 Oct 2019 20:19:04 -0400 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:18:59 -0700 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Aijun Wang Cc: The IESG , lberger@labn.net, teas-chairs@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org, draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191025001859.GF69013@kduck.mit.edu> References: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="GZVR6ND4mMseVXL/" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.1 (2019-06-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 00:19:12 -0000 --GZVR6ND4mMseVXL/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Aijun, I went through the document and attempted to add some more context about what use-cases/simulations are being presented, analysis of why the simulation results are expected to be indicative of real-world results, and to present the clear conclusion that CCDR is expected to provide a generic solution to the indicated class of problems/scenarios. (I also made some editorial/grammar fixes while I was in there.) However, I am not the expert on this work, and I probably made some errors along the way -- just because I say something is true doesn't mean it's true! Please take a look at the attached diff to the XML sources and consider which parts of it will help improve the document. I look forward to seeing your take on a revised I-D. Thanks, Ben On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 02:05:00PM -0700, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hi Aijun, > > On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 04:10:16PM +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: > > > > Hi, Benjamin: > > Thanks for your review. > > > > On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE in Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. The simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central control under the global view. > > This document is the base document of other two drafts: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04 (Solution Draft) > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip-04(PCEP extension) > > > > There are currently at least three different solutions trying to accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. > > Okay, so it sounds like the goal of the document is to show that there are > some scenarios/use-cases in which Native IP provides a substantial > improvement from the previous state of the art (or, perhaps, from the other > competing options), and the simulations are just a tool used to augment the > qualitative description with some concrete instantiations. This does not > match fully with the current Abstract/Introduction, the former of which I > quote from: > > This document > describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when > applying a PCE in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as > Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage > of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control > technology. > > A pithy summary of that exerpt might be "describes some routing scenarios > and simulation results for CCDR; CCDR combines advantages of distributed > protocols and centralized control". While those statements seem to be > true, it doesn't say much about the presented scenarios and results > implying that CCDR is the best or even a good solution for the described > scenarios; it's just two facts that don't get tied together. > > > More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you for the future vote. > > I'm pretty sure that we'll need to update the text for me to change my > ballot position, but I also don't forsee significant challenges in doing > so. > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker wrote: > > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > DISCUSS: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I have two points for discussion: > > > > > > (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for > > > standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by > > > abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss whether > > > it makes sense to approve this document even though the more-lenient > > > document-action requirements would otherwise let it go forward. > > > > > [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors from operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the document maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but the aim of it same as others: give some useful information to the community based on our efforts. > > Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the reviewer. > > > > > (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of being > > > all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document, and an > > > applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a complete treatment > > > for any of them. To be clear, there is enough in the document to > > > indicate that the topic merits further work, and there are some > > > interesting results, but I'm not sure that publication as an RFC is > > > appropriate for this document in this form. Specifically: > > [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description document. The simulation part of this document just want to convince the reader the addition gain of central control under the global view. > > The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions draft. > > > > > > > > (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR and > > > the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much discussion of > > > where these (or similar) scenarios arise in practice, how common they > > > are, and how closely the simulation reflects actual usage. > > > > [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all abstraction from our real network deployment. > > That's what I expected, but it can be helpful to state this explicitly. > (On the other hand, this is probably textbook stuff, so minimal coverage is > okay.) > > Since we're focusing on the "use-cases" portion, to use my terminology, > then the main thing to focus on would be to convince the reader that the > simulation results are likely to translate well to real-world usage. > Mentioning that the presented results hold across many different (random) > simulations, as Éric suggest, would help with this, especially if some > sense of the nature of the distribution across trials can be included (such > as standard deviations). Drawing the connection between the real-world > topology and model topology (as mentioned above) also helps with this. > > As a side note, I do wonder how the simulation results would look if there > was a "spatial affinity" for the attachments of edge nodes to the core, in > that there is a correlation between which subset of core nodes are attached > to individual edge nodes. I expect the impact to be minor, since the core > is fully connected in the simulated topology, but can't guarantee it. But > this is a side note since I don't think running such new simulations would > be necessary in order to get the document into a state where it can be > published. > > > > > > > (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE to > > > engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve overall > > > efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be involved and > > > apply the computed paths or what requirements will need to be met by the > > > protocols and components used to instantiate the architecture > > > > [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in the above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation results. > > Sure, and that's a fine way to split up the content -- we don't necessarily > need to include the architecture of the solution in this document. > > > > > > > (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed technology > > > shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected for comparison, > > > but there is little to give confidence that this reflects a broad maxima > > > that is robust to environmental variations. Is the alternative selected > > > for comparison an appropriate one for the cases in question? How would > > > the propsal react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, > > > such as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic > > > spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of visibility > > > does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be reliable? > > [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes intervals. The optimization process for the simulated complex topology and traffic matrix need only tens of seconds. For further strict requirements, it is easy to enhance the central controller’s capability to tackle the changeable environment. > > > > The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add such descriptions in the solutions draft at its “Deployment Considerations” part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9) > > I agree that these concerns relate to specific solutions and are best > addressed alongside the solutions draft(s); we don't necessarily need to > have this draft cover this topic. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > COMMENT: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed routes > > > get applied; are we using source routing or just being careful about > > > the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any scaling concerns?) > > > > > > > [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution draft. It is not using the current source routing, but the combination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of the path to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is discussed in section 9.1 of solution draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#section-9.1) > > Okay, thanks. > > > > > > > > > Section 3.1 > > > > > > I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are "Private > > > Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be separate boxes on the > > > edge of the distributed control network? Why is the "Cloud Based > > > Application" in neither of the named clouds? > > > > > > > [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the “Cloud-Based Application” are located at the “Private Cloud Site” and “Public Cloud Site”. You can deem these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment scenarios. > > So the "Cloud-Based Application" has components in both Cloud sites, but > excludes the PCE and distributed control network? Perhaps extending the > box for it to include parts at both sites, or having smaller boxes at both > sites and a line grouping them together, would be more clear. > > > > Section 3.2 > > > > > > Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally in a > > > star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices > > > > > > "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things that > > > could be called MANs that use a different topology. > > > > > [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. > > Okay. This was implied by the previous discussion of "service provider > network", but I'd suggest being explicit about it here. > > > > Section 4.1 > > > > > > nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. > > > > [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. > > > > > > Section 4.2 > > > > > > Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical > > > deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! > > > > [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That is the reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 > > > > > > > > Section 4.3 > > > > > > The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of > > > topology. [...] > > > > > > I don't know how to interpret this statement. > > > It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat > > > arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with > > > real-world traffic patterns. > > > > > [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is similar with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise certificate the robustness of the simulation process. > > If I understand correctly, there's three important variables for the > simulation: baseline load, the congesion threshold for each link, and the > distribution of flow bandwidth for the simulated flows. I don't know if > the simulation is being run with zero baseline load so that all flows are > centrally managed or not, so please say something about that. For the > other two, sould it be accurate to say something like "the congestion > threshold for the edge/core and intra-core links are set to the fixed value > of 90%" or "the congestion threshold for edge/core and intra-core links are > sampled from a distribution representative of observed real-world > environments", and "the bandwidth requirements of generated flows is from a > distribution representative of observed real-world flow data"? > > In short, I think we need to say enough about what was done that someone > else could independently run if not the same experiment, one sufficiently > similar that we expect the results to also be similar. > > Thanks, > > Ben --GZVR6ND4mMseVXL/ Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios.xml.diff" --- draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-10.xml 2019-10-24 15:03:06.193789000 -0700 +++ draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-bjk.xml 2019-10-24 17:12:45.500913000 -0700 @@ -14,6 +14,7 @@ + @@ -153,11 +154,11 @@ Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) performance assurance - are emerging within the service provider network. While there are - various technology solutions, there is no one solution which can fulfill - these requirements for a native IP network. One universal (E2E) solution - which can cover both intra-domain and inter-domain scenarios is - needed. + are emerging within service provider networks. While there are + various technology solutions, there is no single solution that can fulfill + these requirements for a native IP network. In particular, there is a need + for a universal (E2E) solution that is simultaneously applicable for both + intra- and inter-domain scenarios. One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution is the addition of central control in a native IP network. This document describes various @@ -165,7 +166,9 @@ Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a - centralized control technology. + centralized control technology, providing traffic engineering for + native IP networks in a manner that applies equally to intra- and + inter-domain scenarios. @@ -182,7 +185,7 @@ Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS) using Traffic Engineering (TE) technology (MPLS-TE)is one solution for traffic - engineering network but it introduces an MPLS network and related + engineering networks but it introduces an MPLS network and related technology which would be an overlay of the IP network. MPLS-TE technology is often used for Label Switched Path (LSP) protection and complex path set-up within a domain. @@ -195,7 +198,7 @@ integrates some advantages of using a distributed protocol and a centrally control technology, but it requires the underlying network, especially the provider edge router, to do a label push and pop action - in-depth, and adds complexity, when coexisting with the Non-Segment + in-depth, and adds complexity when coexisting with the Non-Segment Routing network. Additionally, it can only maneuver the E2E paths for MPLS and IPv6 traffic via different mechanisms. @@ -206,11 +209,17 @@ defined in this document do not require the additional complexity of deterministic properties and so differ from the DetNet use cases. - This draft describes scenarios for a native IP network that a - Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) framework can easily solve, - without requiring a change of the data plane behavior on the router. It - also provides path optimization simulation results to illustrate the - applicability of the CCDR framework. + This draft describes several scenarios for a native IP network where a + Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) framework can produce + qualitative improvement in efficiency without requiring a change of + the data-plane behavior on the router. Using knowledge of + interface-specific prefixes advertised by a router, a central PCE is + able to compute a path and give the sender a destination address to + use, such that the distributed routing protocol will naturally use the + computed path. Some results from simultations of path optimization + are also presented, to concretely illustrate a variety of scenarios + where CCDR shows significant improvement over traditional distributed + routing protocols. This draft is the base document of the following two drafts: the universal solution draft, which is suitable for intra-domain and @@ -254,8 +263,10 @@
- The following sections describe various deployment scenarios for - applying the CCDR framework. + The following sections describe various deployment scenarios where + applying the CCDR framework is intuitively expected to produce + improvements, based on the macro-scale properties of the framework and + the scenario.
With the emergence of cloud computing technologies, enterprises are @@ -313,11 +324,11 @@ connected to different customer types. The traffic from these customers is often in a tidal pattern, with the links between the Core Router(CR)/Broadband Remote Access Server(BRAS) and CR/Service - Router(SR), experiencing congestion in different periods, because the - subscribers under BRAS, often use the network at night, and the - dedicated line users under SR, often use the network during the + Router(SR) experiencing congestion in different periods, because the + subscribers under BRAS often use the network at night, and the + dedicated line users under SR often use the network during the daytime. The link between BRAS/SR and CR must satisfy the maximum - traffic volume between them respectively and this causes these links + traffic volume between them, respectively, and this causes these links often to be under-utilized.
@@ -337,8 +348,8 @@ If we consider connecting the BRAS/SR with a local link loop (which is usually lower cost), and control the overall MAN topology with the CCDR framework, we can exploit the tidal phenomena between the BRAS/CR - and SR/CR links, maximizing the utilization of these links (which are - usually higher cost). + and SR/CR links, maximizing the utilization of these central trunk + links (which are usually higher cost than the local loops).
A solution for this scenario requires the gathering of NetFlow information, analysis of the source/destination AS, and determining - what is the main cause of the congested link. After this, the operator + what is the main cause of the congested link(s). After this, the operator can use the external Border Gateway Protocol(eBGP) sessions to schedule the traffic among the different domains according to the solution described in CCDR framework. @@ -392,8 +403,10 @@
In more general situations, there are often temporal congestion - within the service provider’s network. Such congestion phenomena - often appear repeatedly, and if the service provider has methods to + within the service provider’s network, for example due to + daily or weekly periodic bursts, or large events that are scheduled + well in advance. Such congestion phenomena + often appear regularly, and if the service provider has methods to mitigate it, it will certainly improve their network operations capabilities and increase satisfaction for their customers. CCDR is also suitable for such scenarios, as the controller can schedule @@ -404,19 +417,27 @@
- The following sections describe one case study to illustrate CCDR - algorithm, the topology and traffic matrix generation process and the - optimization results for E2E QoS assured path and congestion elimination - in applied scenarios. + The following sections describe a specific case study to illustrate + the workings of the CCDR algorithm with concrete paths/metrics, as + well as a procedure for generating topology and traffic matrices and + the results from simulations applying CCDR for E2E QoS (assured path + and congestion elimination) over the generated topologies and traffic + matrices. In all cases examined, the CCDR algorithm produces + qualitatively significant improvement over the reference (OSPF) + algorithm, suggesting that CCDR will have broad applicability. - The structure and scale of the simulated topology is similar with the - real network. Several amounts of traffic matrix are generated to - simulate the different congestion condition in network, only one of them - is illustrated. + The structure and scale of the simulated topology is similar to + that of + real networks. Multiple different traffic matrices were generated to + simulate different congestion conditions in the network, but only one + of them is illustrated since the others produce similar results.
- Figure 5 depicts the topology of the network for the case study of - CCDR algorithm. There are 8 forwarding devices in the network. The + In this section we consider a specific network topology for a + worked case study, examining the path selected by OSPF and CCDR and + evaulating how and why the paths differ. Figure 5 depicts the + topology of the network in question. There are 8 + forwarding devices in the network. The original cost and utilization are marked on it, as shown in the figure. For example, the original cost and utilization for the link (1,2) are 3 and 50% respectively. There are two flows: f1 and f2. Both @@ -424,13 +445,15 @@ assumed that the bandwidth of the link in the network is 10Mb/s. The flow rate of f1 is 1Mb/s, and the flow rate of f2 is 2Mb/s. The threshold of the link in congestion is 90%. + If OSPF protocol (ISIS is similar, because it also use the Dijstra's algorithm) is applied in the network, which adopts Dijkstra's algorithm, the two flows from node 1 to node 8 can only use the OSPF path (p1: 1->2->3->8). It is because Dijkstra's algorithm mainly considers original cost of the link. Since CCDR - considers cost and utilization simultaneously, the same path with OSPF + considers cost and utilization simultaneously, the same path as OSPF will not be selected due to the severe congestion of the link (2,3). In this case, f1 will select the path (p2: 1->5->6->7->8) since the new cost of this path is better than that of OSPF path. @@ -493,12 +516,15 @@
- The network topology mainly contains nodes and links information. - Nodes used in the simulation have two types: core node and edge node. - The core nodes are fully linked to each other. The edge nodes are - connected only with some of the core nodes. Figure 6 is a topology - example of 4 core nodes and 5 edge nodes. In this CCDR simulation, 100 - core nodes and 400 edge nodes are generated. + Moving on from the specific case study, we now consider a class + of networks more representative of real deployments, with a + fully-linked core network that serves to connect edge nodes, which themselves + connect to only a subset of the core. An example of such a topology + is shown in Figure 6, for the case of 4 core nodes and 5 edge nodes. + The CCDR simulations presented in this work use topologies involving + 100 core nodes and 400 edge nodes. While the resulting graph does + not fit on this page, this scale of network is similar to what is + deployed in production environments.
-
The number of links connecting one edge node to the set of - core nodes is randomly between 2 to 30, and the total number of links - is more than 20000. Each link has a congestion threshold. +
For the simulations, the number of links connecting one + edge node to the set of core nodes is randomly chosen between 2 to + 30, and the total number of links is more than 20000. Each link + has a congestion threshold, which can be arbitrarily set to + (e.g.) 90% of the nominal link capacity without affecting the + simulation results.
- The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of + For each topology, a traffic matrix is generated based on the + link capacities of topology. It can result in many kinds of situations, such as congestion, mild congestion and non-congestion. In the CCDR simulation, the dimension of the traffic matrix is - 500*500. About 20% links are overloaded when the Open Shortest Path - First (OSPF) protocol is used in the network. + 500*500 (100 core nodes plus 400 edge nodes). About 20% of links are overloaded when the Open Shortest Path + First (OSPF) protocol is used in the network, for the scenarios bein + simulated.
The CCDR E2E path optimization is to find the best path which is - the lowest in metric value and each link of the path is far below - link’s threshold. Based on the current state of the network, the - PCE within CCDR framework combines the shortest path algorithm with a + the lowest in metric value and for which each link of the path is far below + link’s congestion threshold. Based on the current state of the network, the + PCE within the CCDR framework combines the shortest path algorithm with a penalty theory of classical optimization and graph theory. Given a background traffic matrix, which is unscheduled, when a set @@ -560,6 +591,14 @@ eye-catching decrease in UID relative to the path chosen based on OSPF. + While real-world results invariably differ from simulations (for + example, real-world topologies are likely to exhibit correlation in + the attachment patterns for edge nodes to the core, which are not + reflected in these results), the dramatic nature of the improvement + in UID and the choice of simulated toplogy to resemble real-world + conditions suggests that real-world deployments will also experience + significant improvement in UID results. +
- Different degrees of network congestion were simulated. The - Congestion Degree (CD) is defined as the link utilization beyond its - threshold. + During the simulations, different degrees of network congestion + were considered. To examine the effect of CCDR on link congestion, + we consider the Congestion Degree (CD) of a link, defined as the + link utilization beyond its threshold. The CCDR congestion elimination performance is shown in Figure 8. The first graph is the CD distribution before the process of congestion elimination. The average CD of all congested links is about 20%. The second graph shown in Figure 8 is the CD distribution after - using the congestion elimination process. It shows only 12 links among - totally 20000 links exceed the threshold, and all the CD values are + using the congestion elimination process. It shows that only 12 links among + the total of 20000 links exceed the threshold, and all the CD values are less than 3%. Thus, after scheduling of the traffic away from the congested paths, the degree of network congestion is greatly eliminated and the network utilization is in balance. @@ -656,31 +696,45 @@ ]]>
- More detailed information about the algorithm can refer to It is clear that using an active path-computation mechanism that + is able to take into account observed link traffic/congestion, the + occurrence of congestion events can be greatly reduced. Only when a + preponderance of links in the network are near their congestion + threshold will the central controller be unable to find a clear + path, as opposed to when a static metric-based procedure is used, + which will produce congested paths once a single bottleneck + approaches its capacity. + More detailed information about the algorithm can be found in .
- Above CCDR scenarios and simulation results demonstrate that it is - feasible to find one general solution to cope with various complex - situations. Integrated use of a centralized controller for the more - complex optimal path computations in a native IP network results in + The above CCDR scenarios and simulation results demonstrate that + a single general solution can be found that copes with multiple complex + situations. The specific situations considered are not known to have + any special properties, so it is expected that the benefits + demonstrated will have general applicability. Accordingly, the + integrated use of a centralized controller for the more complex + optimal path computations in a native IP network should result in significant improvements without impacting the underlay network infrastructure. - For intra-domain or inter-domain native IP TE scenario, the - deployment of CCDR solution is similar. This universal deployment - characteristic can facilitate the operator to tackle their traffic - engineering issues in one general manner. To deploy the CCDR solution, + For intra-domain or inter-domain native IP TE scenarios, the + deployment of a CCDR solution is similar, with the centralized + controller being able to compute paths and no changes required to the + underlying network infrastructure. This universal deployment + characteristic can facilitate a generic traffic engineering solution, + where operators do not need to differentiate between intra-domain and + inter-domain TE cases. To deploy the CCDR solution, the PCE should collect the underlay network topology dynamically, for example via BGP-LS. It also needs to gather the network traffic information periodically from the network management - platform. The simulation results show PCE can compute the E2E optimal - path within seconds thus it can cope with the change of underlay network - in minute scale. More agile requirements needs increase the sample rate - of underlay network, also decrease the detection and notification - interval of underlay network. The methods to gather and decrease the + platform. The simulation results show that the PCE can compute the E2E optimal + path within seconds, thus it can cope with the change of underlay network + on the scale of minutes. More agile requirements would need to increase the sample rate + of underlay network and decrease the detection and notification + interval of the underlay network. The methods to gather and decrease the latency of these information are out of the scope of this draft.
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([2600:1003:b019:67eb:e145:eab7:9c:b33a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t199sm277111qke.36.2019.10.24.17.27.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Oct 2019 17:27:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D4DB785E-16BF-496D-9425-793039AD9FFB Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 20:27:14 -0400 Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4023B6BF-1C2C-4A8F-8974-23E01902DAE9@gmail.com> References: To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Network Slicing Design Team X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 00:27:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D4DB785E-16BF-496D-9425-793039AD9FFB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TEAS Chairs=20 I am a member of the TEAS WG and I am interested in joining the Network Slic= ing Design Team. I have many years of experience as a network architect wit= h Verizon and many designs involving all aspects of TE. Regards, Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology=20 Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram w= rote: >=20 > WG, > This message announces the formation of the TEAS Network Slicing Desig= n Team. The objectives and deliverables for the design team have been updat= ed based on public and private feedback and is enclosed. There are changes f= rom what was previously announced in (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/= teas/H3azyFI3kIaZDhxwEcSK1_O2CRA), notably calling out scope as being focuse= d on TE technology as the basis for the DT=E2=80=99s work. >=20 > We thank all who expressed interest and willingness to join the design tea= m. As we=E2=80=99re sure all will understand, it was not possible to includ= e all who volunteered in the team. The aim of the DT remains to produce doc= uments that will follow the normal working process, so all will be able to p= articipate in and contribute to this work once we have a WG document as it p= rogresses through normal WG processing. We do note that the objective of th= e DT is to produce an initial draft and there is no requirement for document= authorship to be limited to or include all DT members, and as usual, we exp= ect a WG document to reflect actual contribution to the work. >=20 > Thank you, > WG Chairs: Pavan, Lou > DT Lead: Jari Arkko >=20 > TEAS Network Slicing Design Team (Draft) >=20 > The topic of =E2=80=9CSlicing=E2=80=9D has received significant industry a= ttention due to its role in 5G networks. General background on slicing can= be found in [1], but it is a broad topic that covers many different aspects= from business roles to services and networks. >=20 > Within the IETF the discussion has largely focused on the narrower topics o= f =E2=80=9CNetwork Slicing=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CService Chaining=E2=80=9D. [= 2] provides a sample list of related individual contributions. Much of the I= ETF discussion has focused on how the combination of VPN and TE technologies= can be used to deliver Network Slices. The TEAS Network Slicing Design Team= (NSDT) is being formed to develop a framework for providing Network Slicing= using IETF TE technologies. The expectation is for IETF technologies such a= s IP, MPLS and GMPLS, to be used to create specific, isolated, and managed n= etwork instances. The use of such technology in networks and other SDOs is u= p to others; this work does not imply that the IETF specifies how slicing in= any particular setting should be done. >=20 > The primary goal of the design team is to determine how existing technolog= ies can be used, but it is possible that some extensions to those technologi= es are needed. If such extensions relate to technology from another working g= roup, any eventual work belongs to that group. The reuse of definitions and t= echnologies developed by other SDOs is also in scope, although extensions to= such will be done in the appropriate SDO. An important early deliverable to= the working group from the design team will be a proposed refinement of wha= t is in-scope and what is out-of-scope for the WG on this topic.=20 >=20 > The design team will have the flexibility to decide on how best to develop= , document and present its work. The design team will provide regular update= s and reports to the TEAS working group. It will present an update on their= status and plans at IETF 106 (Singapore) - which will hopefully include an i= nitial discussion on scope. For IETF 107 (Vancouver) the goal for the desi= gn team is an initial design team framework, and possibly draft, in time for= discussion at the meeting. A stable draft is targeted for discussion at IE= TF 108. Note authorship of design team draft(s) will be based on contributio= n to the work, not membership in the design team. Once the draft is accepted= as a working group document, it will progress per TEAS working group normal= process. =20 >=20 > The design team mailing list has been set up with the membership of this l= ist limited to the design team and the chairs, but its archive is open and a= ny may send to this list. Design team meetings will be announced on the lis= t and open to all. The specific workings, including meeting schedules, of t= he design team are the discretion of the team. >=20 > The mailing list for the design team is: teas-ns-dt@ietf.org > The archive can be found at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/teas= -ns-dt/ >=20 > The members of the design team are: > Aijun Wang > Belo, Sergio > Dong Jie (Jimmy) > Eric Gray > Geng Xuesong > Jari Arkko [Lead] > Jeff Tantsura > John E Drake > Luis M. Contreras > Rakesh Gandhi > Ran Chen > Ricard Vilalta > Rokui, Reza > Ron Bonica > Tomonobu Niwa =20 > Xufeng Liu >=20 >=20 > =20 > [1] Background documents defining slicing in general: https://5g-ppp.eu/wp= -content/uploads/2019/07/5G-PPP-5G-Architecture-White-Paper_v3.0_PublsicCons= ultation.pdf and https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Specs/archive/28_series/28.530/285= 30-f10.zip > [2] IETF drafts related to the general topic of network slicing: > draft-ali-spring-network-slicing-building-blocks > draft-arkko-arch-virtualization > draft-bryant-rtgwg-enhanced-vpn > draft-defoy-netslices-3gpp-network-slicing > draft-dong-lsr-sr-enhanced-vpn > draft-dong-network-slicing-problem-statement > draft-dong-rtgwg-enhanced-vpn-protocol > draft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn > draft-dong-teas-enhanced-vpn > draft-drake-bess-enhanced-vpn > draft-eastlake-bess-enhance-evpn-all-active > draft-flinck-slicing-management > draft-galis-netslices-revised-problem-statement > draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn > draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing > draft-lee-rtgwg-actn-applicability-enhanced-vpn > draft-netslices-usecases > draft-peng-lsr-network-slicing > draft-rokui-5g-transport-slice > draft-qiang-coms-netslicing-information-model > draft-xuan-dmm-multicast-mobility-slicing > draft-zch-lsr-isis-network-slicing > draft-zhuang-bess-enhanced-vpn-auto-discovery >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-D4DB785E-16BF-496D-9425-793039AD9FFB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

TEAS Chairs 

I am a member of the TEAS WG and I am interested in joining the Net= work Slicing Design Team.  I have many years of experience as a network= architect with Verizon and many designs involving all aspects of TE.
<= div>
Regards,

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Network Engineering & Technology 

Verizon Communications = ;Inc. (VZ)

1310= 1 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

Silver Spring, M= D 20904

United States

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: = gyan.s.mishra= @verizon.com

www.linkedin= .com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT


Sent from my iPhone

On= Sep 18, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com> wrote:

WG,
   = This message announces the formation of the TEAS Network Slicing Design Tea= m.  The objectives and deliverables for the design team have been updat= ed based on public and private feedback and is enclosed. There are changes f= rom what was previously announced in (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/ar= ch/msg/teas/H3azyFI3kIaZDhxwEcSK1_O2CRA), notably calling out scope as b= eing focused on TE technology as the basis for the DT=E2=80=99s work.
We thank all who expressed interest and willingness to join the design team= .  As we=E2=80=99re sure all will understand, it was not possible to in= clude all who volunteered in the team.  The aim of the DT remains to pr= oduce documents that will follow the normal working process, so all will be a= ble to participate in and contribute to this work once we have a WG document= as it progresses through normal WG processing.  We do note that the ob= jective of the DT is to produce an initial draft and there is no requirement= for document authorship to be limited to or include all DT members, and as u= sual, we expect a WG document to reflect actual contribution to the work.
Thank you,
WG Chairs: Pavan, Lou
DT Lead: Jari Arkko

TEAS N= etwork Slicing Design Team (Draft)

The topic of =E2=80=9CSlicing=E2=80= =9D has received significant industry attention due to its  role in 5G n= etworks.  General background on slicing can be found in [1], but it is a= broad topic that covers many different aspects from business roles to servi= ces and networks.

Within the IETF the discussion has largely focused o= n the narrower topics of =E2=80=9CNetwork Slicing=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CServ= ice Chaining=E2=80=9D. [2] provides a sample list of related individual cont= ributions. Much of the IETF discussion has focused on how the combination of= VPN and TE technologies can be used to deliver Network Slices. The TEAS Net= work Slicing Design Team (NSDT) is being formed to develop a framework for p= roviding Network Slicing using IETF TE technologies. The expectation is for I= ETF technologies such as IP, MPLS and GMPLS, to  be used to create spec= ific, isolated, and managed network instances. The use of such technology in= networks and other SDOs is up to others; this work does not imply that the I= ETF specifies how slicing in any particular setting should be done.

T= he primary goal of the design team is to determine how existing technologies= can be used, but it is possible that some extensions to those technologies a= re needed. If such extensions relate to technology from another working grou= p, any eventual work belongs to that group. The reuse of definitions and tec= hnologies developed by other SDOs is also in scope, although extensions to s= uch will be done in the appropriate SDO. An important early deliverable to t= he working group from the design team will be a proposed refinement of what i= s in-scope and what is out-of-scope for the WG on this topic. 

T= he design team will have the flexibility to decide on how best to develop, d= ocument and present its work. The design team will provide regular updates a= nd reports to the TEAS working group.  It will present an update on the= ir status and plans at IETF 106 (Singapore) - which will hopefully include a= n initial discussion on scope.  For  IETF 107 (Vancouver) the goal= for the design team is an initial design team framework, and possibly draft= , in time for discussion at the meeting.  A stable draft is targeted fo= r discussion at IETF 108. Note authorship of design team draft(s) will be ba= sed on contribution to the work, not membership in the design team. Once the= draft is accepted as a working group document, it will progress per TEAS wo= rking group normal process.  

The design team mailing list h= as been set up with the membership of this list limited to the design team a= nd the chairs, but its archive is open and any may send to this list.  D= esign team meetings will be announced on the list and open to all.  The= specific workings, including meeting schedules, of the design team are the d= iscretion of the team.

The mailing list for the design team is: teas-ns-dt@ietf.org
The archive can= be found at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/teas-ns-dt/

The membe= rs of the design team are:
    Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>
&= nbsp;   Belo, Sergio <sergio.belo@nokia.com>
    Dong Jie (Jimm= y)  <jie.dong@huawei.com&= gt;
    Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>
    Geng Xu= esong <gengxuesong@huawei.com>
    Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@ericsson.com>         &= nbsp;       [Lead]
    Jeff Tantsura &= lt;jeant.ie@gmail.com>
 = ;   John E Drake <jd= rake@juniper.net>
    Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ie@gmail.com>
&n= bsp;   Rakesh Gandhi  <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Ran Chen <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>
 &nbs= p;  Ricard Vilalta <ric= ard.vilalta@cc.es>
    Rokui, Reza <reza.rokui@nokia.com>
  = ;  Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>
    Tomonobu Niwa <to-niwa@kddi.com> 
   =  Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.i= e@gmail.com>


   
[1] Background documen= ts defining slicing in general: https://5g-ppp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/5G-PPP-5G-Architecture-White-P= aper_v3.0_PublsicConsultation.pdf and https://www.3gpp.org/ftp/Spe= cs/archive/28_series/28.530/28530-f10.zip
[2] IETF drafts related to t= he general topic of network slicing:
draft-ali-spring-network-slicing-bui= lding-blocks
draft-arkko-arch-virtualization
draft-bryant-rtgwg-enhanc= ed-vpn
draft-defoy-netslices-3gpp-network-slicing
draft-dong-lsr-sr-en= hanced-vpn
draft-dong-network-slicing-problem-statement
draft-dong-rtg= wg-enhanced-vpn-protocol
draft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn
draft-d= ong-teas-enhanced-vpn
draft-drake-bess-enhanced-vpn
draft-eastlake-bes= s-enhance-evpn-all-active
draft-flinck-slicing-management
draft-galis-= netslices-revised-problem-statement
draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn
draft= -king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing
draft-lee-rtgwg-actn-applicability-= enhanced-vpn
draft-netslices-usecases
draft-peng-lsr-network-slicingdraft-rokui-5g-transport-slice
draft-qiang-coms-netslicing-information-= model
draft-xuan-dmm-multicast-mobility-slicing
draft-zch-lsr-isis-net= work-slicing
draft-zhuang-bess-enhanced-vpn-auto-discovery

________= _______________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
<= span>https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/teas
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([2600:1003:b019:67eb:e145:eab7:9c:b33a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w15sm77541qtk.43.2019.10.24.18.11.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Oct 2019 18:11:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 21:11:15 -0400 Cc: Toerless Eckert , Tarek Saad , Aijun Wang , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <31E420AD-E8F6-4042-B1EF-FDD1B95B9956@gmail.com> References: <20190729215513.7yf4cj7mf3ieevs4@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> To: Tarek Saad Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Preferred Path Routing (PPR) Re: Questions on IP RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for P2P IP-TE LSP Tunnels X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:11:25 -0000 Tarek & Authors of PRR Draft I had some questions related to the application= s of IP-TE extensions use cases of native IP forwarding networks where hop b= y hop state does not exist as in with MPLS forwarding plane with label switc= hing topmost label in this case TE LFIB does not exist. So the maib use case is with Spring WG Segment Routing which the major benef= it of SR is inherent TE source routing capability by the source node which a= llows the core to be free of maintaining any state as exists with MPLS P rou= ters LFIB forwarding plane. So since SR-MPLS has SR-TE for explicit IP-TE paths which is inherent to SR-= MPLS. With SRv6 has native IPv6 forwarding plane hop by hop traffic engineering ca= pability with EH SRH insertion at source node routing header type 4 and IP FR= R path protection with Ti-LFA. So given both SR-MPLS and SRv6 both have inherent source routing traffic eng= ineering capability of IP-FRR what does this draft for IP-TE PPR provide tha= t already exists. Regards=20 Gyan Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 6, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Tarek Saad wrote: >=20 > Hi Toerless, >=20 > Thanks for forking a separate thread on this as PPR is indeed an orthogona= l topic. > Admittedly, we're still catching up on PPR, but please see inline for some= comments on your points. >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/29/19, 5:55 PM, "Toerless Eckert" wrote: >=20 > I think this option might not have been brought up on TEAS in before: > With "Preferred Path Routing" (PPR) we have proposed a solutoin that > signals traffic engineered paths efficiently solely via the IGP, indepe= ndent > of fowarding plane, hence applicable to IPv4/IPv6/SR-MPLS/SRv6 (or > even L2 switching). >=20 > The core thought was to simplify signalling and leverage what we learne= d > eliminating LDP from the necessary signaling protocol suite with SR, > something customers seem to overall appreciate. But there was no > equivalent mechanism to eliminate RSVP-TE signaling, and with PPR there= > is. >=20 > [TS]: We understand the drive to reduce protocols for the argument of simp= licity. However, with RSVP we have an efficient mechanism to communicate (do= wnstream or upstream) with all or some nodes along the path or even between a= specific node and the ingress of the Path. While PPR piggybacks over IGP (t= rying to eliminate RSVP), it is inheriting IGP's flooding nature. It seems a= ll nodes within the IGP domain will have the state about all the PPR path(s)= and all nodes will have to process all of the PPR TLVs to determine whether= or not they are relevant for them or not. This may raise some concerns abou= t scale and convergence implications. Also, while [ID. draft-cls-ppr-te-attr= ibutes] is an early attempt to bring BW reservation to links traversed by th= e PPR path by adding BW to the flooded PPR TLV, it still lacks handling of t= hings admission failures (which occur in race conditions), (soft/hard) preem= ption (due to capacity decrease, etc.) and many others - and it is not clear= how the ingress of the path is notified of such conditions - short of poten= tially multiple preempting nodes flooding such notifications in the IGP doma= in..=20 >=20 > Btw: When i started working on RSVP/RSVP-TE i also wanted TE functions > for RSVP-IP, but after having experienced a lot of the perfomance / > complexity issues, i think its a good idea to consider a more forward > looking alternative. >=20 > [TS]: We are not sure what performance/complexity issues you are eluding t= o above. As you know, there's been some significant work done at IETF for im= proving RSVP protocol for scale deployments (for e.g. message bundling/RFC29= 61, scale/RFC8370, RSVP Summary FRR, and RI RSVP FRR, etc...). Also note, IP= -TE RSVP entails a single IP-in-IP encapsulation (at the ingress) and a deca= psulation (at the egress). Nodes along the path do not perform additional da= taplane processing -- besides the regular IP forwarding instructions. >=20 > Wrt to loose hop forwarding: With PPR, the cost of signaling strict cos= t > is minimized, so whenever the desired policy better suits strict (e.g.:= > no undeisred rerouting on loose segments), PPR should make it most easy= . > When the policy is really loose segments, then i think for all signalin= g > mechanisms (RSVP-TE-IP, PPR or anything else), the same considaration > for the forwarding plane could apply: >=20 > [TS]: Please note that loose paths are possible with RSVP. >=20 > Regards, > Tarek and Pavan >=20 > Typically you wouldn't want to carry customer payload packets without > encap across the TE domain. Not an issue of TE, just of not wanting > customer addresses in your own network domain. So you can assume to ha= ve a TE-domain > end-to-end encap. You can logically simply do on loose hops an > architectural IP-decap followed by IP-encap. And implementation wise it= s > at worst a 2 * 128-bit rewrite (Src,Dst-IP-addr). If you are creative > and consider the source-address to be an anycast-address owned by every= > loose-hop, and you don't need to steer on the source-address, it's only= a > single 128 bit rewrite. So not that difficult. In IPv4 the rewrite woul= d be > shorter, but you also need to incrementally update the checksum, which > may be an issue for simpler forwarding HW (shouldn't be for P4-class > forwardign engine, but might cost more performance). >=20 > For PPR, See e.g.: draft-chunduri-lsr-isis-preferred-path-routing, > draft-qct-lsr-ppr-yang, draft-bryant-rtgwg-plfa, > draft-chunduri-idr-bgp-ls-ppr-ext, draft-ce-lsr-ppr-graph, > draft-cls-ppr-te-attributes, ... >=20 > Cheers > Toerless >=20 >> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 04:14:55PM +0000, Tarek Saad wrote: >> Hi Aijun, >>=20 >> Thanks for reading and providing your comments on the draft. Please see i= nline. >>=20 >>=20 >> From: Teas on behalf of Aijun Wang >> Date: Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 10:52 PM >> To: Tarek Saad , 'Vishnu Pavan Beeram' >> Cc: 'TEAS WG' >> Subject: [Teas] Questions on IP RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP for P2P IP-TE= LSP Tunnels >>=20 >> Hi, Tarek and Vishnu: >>=20 >> I just read your draft https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps= -3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dsaad-2Dteas-2Drsvpte-2Dip-2Dtunnels-2D00&d=3D= DwIBAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DKd6NW5ctLWr7GB646= PVmMByvi8wQxPILpKhHvGQeRHY&m=3D60Kd1iKaFRXkC1muJlLnPWj5oYBoMAQXBuJo0HwHPvQ&s= =3DJGD977mQrjiZZwqEbO4wLw4ijrgNgnIYG1HdYPblJdY&e=3D , some questions are rai= sed as the following. Would you like to clarify them: >> 1. As described in section-3.5.2, the final path is established hop by hop, with the EAB address is t= he final destination, and the next-hop address is determined via the EXPLICT= _ROUTE object. >> If so, then this draft proposes to establish one e2e path explicitly via= RSVP in Native IP network. The tunnel itself is not related to this draft? >> [TS]: The idea here is to reuse the many constructs that RFC3209 (and oth= ers) introduce to achieve the IP TE tunnel ? this includes FRR, BW managemen= t, make-before-break, e2e path-protection, preemption, etc.,-- so the tunnel= (as ingress construct) is surely related. >>=20 >> If so, should the title be changed to ?IP RSVP-TE: Extensions to RSVP fo= r P2P IP-TE Path? more appropriated? >>=20 >> 2. The usage of the label proposed in section-3.4 is just for identification of the above P2P IP-TE Pat= h(control plane only)? It will not existed within the forwarding packet(data= plane) itself? >> [TS]: No, the EAB address is allocated by the egress node (triggered by R= SVP signaling). It is carried in the RESV message on the way back to ingress= . Any router that sees the RESV, will process it and program the EAB address= in its forwarding ? effectively setting up its dataplane for that IP-LSP pa= th. >>=20 >> If my understanding is correct, I think this draft has the same effect as= that proposed in https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__dat= atracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dteas-2Dpce-2Dnative-2Dip_&d=3DDwIBAg&c=3D= HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DKd6NW5ctLWr7GB646PVmMByvi8wQ= xPILpKhHvGQeRHY&m=3D60Kd1iKaFRXkC1muJlLnPWj5oYBoMAQXBuJo0HwHPvQ&s=3DsM_zMk8W= lWNyUOpaAWjNhQK-lP8eNd6OCx0vvz1WaAk&e=3D , both can be the candidate solutio= ns for the scenarios described in >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o= rg_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dteas-2Dnative-2Dip-2Dscenarios_&d=3DDwIBAg&c=3DHAkYuh6= 3rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DKd6NW5ctLWr7GB646PVmMByvi8wQxPILpKh= HvGQeRHY&m=3D60Kd1iKaFRXkC1muJlLnPWj5oYBoMAQXBuJo0HwHPvQ&s=3DVQsubDKP6SERYCS= 3w29I3Rm2sczMrKHdMBlx1d92Q8A&e=3D=20 >>=20 >> [TS]: We have mentioned in the draft that it is possible the ERO to be co= mputed and downloaded by a PCE (using PCEP) to an ingress PE, and for the in= gress PE to use that ERO in RSVP signaling to setup the IP RSVP-TE tunnel us= ing the mechanisms defined in the draft. The draft you mentioned (from skimm= ing quickly have to say), seems to be using PCEP as interface to program the= RIB on router hops. I?m not sure if it covers many of (exisiing TE feature B= W/preemption/protection/etc) aspects I?ve mentioned above as well as being a= ble to establish multiple IP-LSP(s) to same destination and being able to sh= are the dataplane forwarding state among the different IP-LSP(s) as we descr= ibe in this draft. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Tarek >>=20 >>=20 >> Best Regards. >>=20 >> Aijun Wang >> Network R&D and Operation Support Department >> China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, Chi= na.. >>=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_listinfo_teas&d=3DDwIBAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&= r=3DKd6NW5ctLWr7GB646PVmMByvi8wQxPILpKhHvGQeRHY&m=3D60Kd1iKaFRXkC1muJlLnPWj5= oYBoMAQXBuJo0HwHPvQ&s=3DZPZIwldqPiG44tfYdq8_UgnDlAEPSJYBGhw7BsVydZQ&e=3D=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > --- > tte@cs.fau.de >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Fri Oct 25 01:05:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 215241201CE; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:05:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <157199072306.4531.14554372656906980893@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:05:23 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 08:05:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Xiaohong Huang Caixia Kou Zhenqiang Li Penghui Mi Filename : draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2019-10-25 Abstract: Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) performance assurance are emerging within the service provider networks. While there are various technology solutions, there is no single solution that can fulfill these requirements for a native IP network. In particular, there is a need for a universal (E2E) solution that is simultaneously applicable for both intra- and inter-domain scenarios. One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution is the addition of central control in a native IP network. This document describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when applying the Path Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control technology, providing traffic engineering for native IP networks in a manner that applies equally to intra- and inter-domain scenarios. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Oct 25 01:39:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6D21201DC; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:39:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RdMbRZy6wOpr; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256E312012D; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 01:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id BA7F6663DF1; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:39:26 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Benjamin Kaduk'" Cc: "'The IESG'" , , , , References: <20191003210453.GA6424@kduck.mit.edu> <20191025001859.GF69013@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20191025001859.GF69013@kduck.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 16:39:28 +0800 Message-ID: <00c601d58b0f$b7602740$262075c0$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdWKydvrOC72i2C7TRe/LFy3eme7gwAQ6Fwg Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VCSElLS0tKTUtJSkxJQ05ZV1koWU FKTEtLSjdXWS1ZQUlXWQkOFx4IWUFZNTQpNjo3JCkuNz5ZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6Ngw6URw6HTg1TTRJLS0oFDw* DDQKCkJVSlVKTkxKQkJJTExISUhLVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWVdZCAFZQUpCTUpKNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6e021209e89373kuwsba7f6663df1 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgQmVuamFtaW4gS2FkdWsncyBEaXNjdXNz?= =?utf-8?q?_on_draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_a?= =?utf-8?q?nd_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 08:39:39 -0000 Hi, Benjamin: Thanks for your careful review and valuable suggestions. Based on your = suggestions, I think the document will be looked more coherent and be = easily understood.=20 I accepted almost all of your suggestions excepts the following parts: [Original] This draft describes several scenarios for a native IP network where a = Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) framework can produce = qualitative improvement in efficiency without requiring a change of the = data-plane behavior on the router. Using knowledge of interface-specific = prefixes advertised by a router, a central PCE is able to compute a path = and give the sender a destination address to use, such that the = distributed routing protocol will naturally use the computed path. Some = results from simultations of path optimization are also presented, to = concretely illustrate a variety of scenarios where CCDR shows = significant improvement over traditional distributed routing protocols. [New] This draft describes several scenarios for a native IP network where a = Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) framework can produce = qualitative improvement in efficiency without requiring a change of the = data-plane behavior on the router. Using knowledge of BGP(Border = Gateway Protocol) session-specific prefixes advertised by a router, the = network topology and the near real time link utilization information = from network management systems, a central PCE is able to compute an = optimal path and give the underlay routers the destination address to = use to reach the BGP nexthop, such that the distributed routing protocol = will use the computed path via traditional recursive lookup procedure. = Some results from simulations of path optimization are also presented, = to concretely illustrate a variety of scenarios where CCDR shows = significant improvement over traditional distributed routing protocols. I have uploaded the updated version at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11, = please take a look at it again and see whether it is suitable to be = forward then. Thanks again for your efforts. Best Regards. Aijun Wang China Telecom -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Benjamin Kaduk [mailto:kaduk@mit.edu]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5 8:19 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Aijun Wang =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: The IESG; lberger@labn.net; teas-chairs@ietf.org; = teas@ietf.org; draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on = draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Hi Aijun, I went through the document and attempted to add some more context about = what use-cases/simulations are being presented, analysis of why the = simulation results are expected to be indicative of real-world results, = and to present the clear conclusion that CCDR is expected to provide a = generic solution to the indicated class of problems/scenarios. (I also = made some editorial/grammar fixes while I was in there.) However, I am = not the expert on this work, and I probably made some errors along the = way -- just because I say something is true doesn't mean it's true! = Please take a look at the attached diff to the XML sources and consider = which parts of it will help improve the document. I look forward to seeing your take on a revised I-D. Thanks, Ben On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 02:05:00PM -0700, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hi Aijun, >=20 > On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 04:10:16PM +0800, Aijun Wang wrote: > >=20 > > Hi, Benjamin: > > Thanks for your review. > >=20 > > On summary, this draft just gives the scenarios that needed for TE = in Native IP network, this is absent in current existing IETF documents. = The simulation results just demonstrated the applicability of central = control under the global view. > > This document is the base document of other two drafts: > >=20 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04=20 > > (Solution Draft) > >=20 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip- > > 04(PCEP extension) > >=20 > > There are currently at least three different solutions trying to = accomplish the TE necessities in native IP network. This scenarios and = simulation draft is just the start points of these documents. >=20 > Okay, so it sounds like the goal of the document is to show that there = > are some scenarios/use-cases in which Native IP provides a substantial = > improvement from the previous state of the art (or, perhaps, from the=20 > other competing options), and the simulations are just a tool used to=20 > augment the qualitative description with some concrete instantiations. = =20 > This does not match fully with the current Abstract/Introduction, the=20 > former of which I quote from: >=20 > This document > describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when > applying a PCE in a native IP network. This solution, referred to = as > Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the = advantage > of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized = control > technology. >=20 > A pithy summary of that exerpt might be "describes some routing=20 > scenarios and simulation results for CCDR; CCDR combines advantages of = > distributed protocols and centralized control". While those=20 > statements seem to be true, it doesn't say much about the presented=20 > scenarios and results implying that CCDR is the best or even a good=20 > solution for the described scenarios; it's just two facts that don't = get tied together. >=20 > > More details responses are inline below. Wish they can convince you = for the future vote. >=20 > I'm pretty sure that we'll need to update the text for me to change my = > ballot position, but I also don't forsee significant challenges in=20 > doing so. >=20 > > Thanks in advance. > >=20 > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > >=20 > > >> On Oct 3, 2019, at 13:15, Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker = wrote: > > > =EF=BB=BFBenjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position = for > > > draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-09: Discuss > > >=20 > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to=20 > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to = > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Please refer to=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenari > > > os/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---- > > > DISCUSS: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---- > > >=20 > > > I have two points for discussion: > > >=20 > > > (1) If this document was subject to the approval requirements for=20 > > > standards action, it would basically be suffering from "death by=20 > > > abstain"; this seems like a good signal for the IESG to discuss=20 > > > whether it makes sense to approve this document even though the=20 > > > more-lenient document-action requirements would otherwise let it = go forward. > > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: This document is the cooperation results of authors = from operators, research university and the vendor. The style of the = document maybe slight different from the traditional IETF documents, but = the aim of it same as others: give some useful information to the = community based on our efforts. > > Wish the relevant responses and explanations can convince the = reviewer. > >=20 > > > (2) The document seems incomplete to me. It has some aspects of=20 > > > being all/any of a use-cases document, an architecture document,=20 > > > and an applicability analysis, but does not seem to have a=20 > > > complete treatment for any of them. To be clear, there is enough=20 > > > in the document to indicate that the topic merits further work,=20 > > > and there are some interesting results, but I'm not sure that=20 > > > publication as an RFC is appropriate for this document in this = form. Specifically: > > [Aijun Wang] It is mainly one native IP TE scenarios description = document. The simulation part of this document just want to convince the = reader the addition gain of central control under the global view. > > The architecture/solutions contents is in above mentioned solutions = draft. > >=20 > > >=20 > > > (2a) use-cases: we see the examples of star topology with BRAS/SR=20 > > > and the simulated network in Figure 6, but there is not much=20 > > > discussion of where these (or similar) scenarios arise in=20 > > > practice, how common they are, and how closely the simulation = reflects actual usage. > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: The star topology and simulated topology are all = abstraction from our real network deployment. >=20 > That's what I expected, but it can be helpful to state this = explicitly. > (On the other hand, this is probably textbook stuff, so minimal=20 > coverage is > okay.) >=20 > Since we're focusing on the "use-cases" portion, to use my=20 > terminology, then the main thing to focus on would be to convince the=20 > reader that the simulation results are likely to translate well to = real-world usage. > Mentioning that the presented results hold across many different=20 > (random) simulations, as =C3=89ric suggest, would help with this,=20 > especially if some sense of the nature of the distribution across=20 > trials can be included (such as standard deviations). Drawing the=20 > connection between the real-world topology and model topology (as = mentioned above) also helps with this. >=20 > As a side note, I do wonder how the simulation results would look if=20 > there was a "spatial affinity" for the attachments of edge nodes to=20 > the core, in that there is a correlation between which subset of core=20 > nodes are attached to individual edge nodes. I expect the impact to=20 > be minor, since the core is fully connected in the simulated topology, = > but can't guarantee it. But this is a side note since I don't think=20 > running such new simulations would be necessary in order to get the=20 > document into a state where it can be published. >=20 > > >=20 > > > (2b) architecture: a very high-level picture is given ("use a PCE=20 > > > to engineer some of the IP traffic on a network and improve=20 > > > overall efficiency"), but we don't see much about how PCCs will be = > > > involved and apply the computed paths or what requirements will=20 > > > need to be met by the protocols and components used to instantiate = > > > the architecture > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: The above contents that you concerned is described in = the above mentioned solution and PCEP extension drafts. As explained in = previous, this draft focus only the overall scenarios and the simulation = results. >=20 > Sure, and that's a fine way to split up the content -- we don't=20 > necessarily need to include the architecture of the solution in this = document. >=20 > > >=20 > > > (2c) applicability: we see some scenarios where the proposed=20 > > > technology shows drastic improvement over the alternative selected = > > > for comparison, but there is little to give confidence that this=20 > > > reflects a broad maxima that is robust to environmental=20 > > > variations. Is the alternative selected for comparison an=20 > > > appropriate one for the cases in question? How would the propsal=20 > > > react in the face of changes in the environment it runs in, such=20 > > > as link or node failure, changes in the baseline usage, or traffic = > > > spikes? What timescale can it react in and what level of = visibility does the PCE need into current conditions in order to be = reliable? > > [Aijun Wang] The SDN controller get the overall underlying network = conditions via BGP-LS/SNMP/Netflow protocol in about 5 minutes = intervals. The optimization process for the simulated complex topology = and traffic matrix need only tens of seconds. For further strict = requirements, it is easy to enhance the central controller=E2=80=99s = capability to tackle the changeable environment. > >=20 > > The above concerns has more relations to the solutions, we can add=20 > > such descriptions in the solutions draft at its =E2=80=9CDeployment=20 > > Considerations=E2=80=9D=20 > > part.(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#s > > ection-9) >=20 > I agree that these concerns relate to specific solutions and are best=20 > addressed alongside the solutions draft(s); we don't necessarily need=20 > to have this draft cover this topic. >=20 > > >=20 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---- > > > COMMENT: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ---- > > >=20 > > > If we're using a PCE in a native IP network, how do the computed=20 > > > routes get applied; are we using source routing or just being=20 > > > careful about the prefixes in use? (Are there going to be any=20 > > > scaling concerns?) > > >=20 > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang] These contents are in the above mentioned solution=20 > > draft. It is not using the current source routing, but the=20 > > combination of multiple BGP session and the manipulation of the path = > > to BGP nexthop with the help of PCEP protocol. The scalability is=20 > > discussed in section 9.1 of solution=20 > > draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-04#s > > ection-9.1) >=20 > Okay, thanks. >=20 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > > Section 3.1 > > >=20 > > > I don't understand what Figure 1 is intending to convey. Are=20 > > > "Private Cloud Site" and "Public Cloud Site" supposed to be=20 > > > separate boxes on the edge of the distributed control network? =20 > > > Why is the "Cloud Based Application" in neither of the named = clouds? > > >=20 > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: The source and destination of the =E2=80=9CCloud-Based = Application=E2=80=9D are located at the =E2=80=9CPrivate Cloud = Site=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CPublic Cloud Site=E2=80=9D. You can deem = these sites as the concepts described in traditional VPN deployment = scenarios. >=20 > So the "Cloud-Based Application" has components in both Cloud sites,=20 > but excludes the PCE and distributed control network? Perhaps=20 > extending the box for it to include parts at both sites, or having=20 > smaller boxes at both sites and a line grouping them together, would = be more clear. >=20 > > > Section 3.2 > > >=20 > > > Network topology within a Metro Area Network (MAN) is generally = in a > > > star mode as illustrated in Figure 2, with different devices > > >=20 > > > "Generally" within what scope, commercial ISPs? I know of things=20 > > > that could be called MANs that use a different topology. > > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: In commercial ISP. >=20 > Okay. This was implied by the previous discussion of "service=20 > provider network", but I'd suggest being explicit about it here. >=20 > > > Section 4.1 > > >=20 > > > nit: several sentences are missing spaces after the full stop. > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang] Will correct them in update version. > > >=20 > > > Section 4.2 > > >=20 > > > Is a fully-linked core of 100 nodes representative of typical=20 > > > deployments? That's a lot of links not going to customers! > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang]: The core nodes can also connects the customers. That=20 > > is the reasons that the traffic matrix is 500*500, not 100*100 > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Section 4.3 > > >=20 > > > The traffic matrix is generated based on the link capacity of > > > topology. [...] > > >=20 > > > I don't know how to interpret this statement. > > > It does sound like the traffic matrix is generated in a somewhat=20 > > > arbitrary fashion, with no stated effort to keep it aligned with=20 > > > real-world traffic patterns. > > >=20 > > [Aijun Wang] We just keep the overall congestion links ratio is = similar with the real network. The arbitration fashion can otherwise = certificate the robustness of the simulation process. =20 >=20 > If I understand correctly, there's three important variables for the > simulation: baseline load, the congesion threshold for each link, and = > the distribution of flow bandwidth for the simulated flows. I don't=20 > know if the simulation is being run with zero baseline load so that=20 > all flows are centrally managed or not, so please say something about=20 > that. For the other two, sould it be accurate to say something like=20 > "the congestion threshold for the edge/core and intra-core links are=20 > set to the fixed value of 90%" or "the congestion threshold for=20 > edge/core and intra-core links are sampled from a distribution=20 > representative of observed real-world environments", and "the=20 > bandwidth requirements of generated flows is from a distribution = representative of observed real-world flow data"? >=20 > In short, I think we need to say enough about what was done that=20 > someone else could independently run if not the same experiment, one=20 > sufficiently similar that we expect the results to also be similar. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Ben From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:21:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AD7120AD4; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: db3546@att.com, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157203793942.2724.5560272014981316637.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:19 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] teas - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:18:43 -0000 Dear Lou Berger, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. teas Session 1 (1:30 requested) Tuesday, 19 November 2019, Afternoon Session I 1330-1500 Room Name: Collyer size: 250 --------------------------------------------- teas Session 2 (1:00 requested) Tuesday, 19 November 2019, Afternoon Session III 1710-1840 Room Name: Collyer size: 250 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/teas.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Lou Berger Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour, 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: ccamp mpls pce netmod detnet Technology Overlap: idr i2rs spring lsr Key Participant Conflict: pals bess nvo3 People who must be present: Lou Berger Deborah Brungard Vishnu Pavan Beeram Resources Requested: Special Requests: One 2.5 hour session please... Other Conflicts: IRTF RRG, RTG BOFs --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Oct 25 15:09:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB7D120041; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios@ietf.org, Lou Berger , teas-chairs@ietf.org, lberger@labn.net, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <157204137311.2760.9441716858759738187.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 15:09:33 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 22:09:33 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-11: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the updates in the -11! This version does a much better job at convincing the reader that CCDR can be an effective solution to the stated problems in real-world networks. From nobody Tue Oct 29 13:38:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843C212012C; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:38:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fSG4gMJ6X1Sv; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 247631200D6; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x336.google.com with SMTP id n7so4068160wmc.3; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:38:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t8AouHkqGYjvuaDLEUFA8lQ0i3vCx8NVCmyJCRBtS8E=; b=CAoceCIcNZjHkbFIRsrmNwJSTqYpEE01OR397T0woczkcEIxQffMRfJsvkLObBLUjU 8QIvpY6IGY34scYeufQR8qg+EQTAP3s9WVZ605gu2yFv5ta0NR0KE5LEP0FIK5M79tOz 8ZeHnWASdmQlmi6vhv3JT4C8AGKk6GAgmx2HcIrf71V6fp2ScT4sUNRgenHV9vfZ6kQR +jhRW4mZMCg4SE/Zwj+IlBTwe0dOZAy/t7WCk6ZxVwZGzzNOqgHSozTLWJ/EJolVO88f PoQEPodIkRRxyTw7j3fPF1XjkJ9YGULnFXe+fgfR6dZ3VrddSaNkjCFHAruFnaPWcf5w DNNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t8AouHkqGYjvuaDLEUFA8lQ0i3vCx8NVCmyJCRBtS8E=; b=I5sO1BSluh6R6oeBx9GJxxQVZQThaRrEErXk8a4jcod71YKWvFtC8D+d+BQ6+XSFSO 8r9JPaBX/9Vg3eBpmpkeqfeHklm6c2SgzIWOGjeOBqrnS0/ym0kPQzAMUr25n881IJRx cno8HVTWf8sxzzq9UdsaVvWN72OHyclt2Cj5PUm+W7f8bwaoR045ffSM3lF4mAeAAKXD 6N8DD9Ih0Ht+9hNK7CiA9Vv94cb5lC8h16Ihrd3+5seFZxQGpCT94zCCFSUv1kpSVSvW 6BKyAkhsIa7KkJXzGh3yeEiod80Ya5yWU/kRO4dExcVufOENxaYaLo1mxrEdxWFE0wQ1 wVxg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUj2XhVtWsSuzAOcunXFej5o4a5rlSK/1JZ8fg+yrF7lEcvLylD cYNgOsx3jHpf1g2vpkqs2zqs4Yw5RZaeCIHOTWEpsDWp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqrh/oi6rm65STCjBmUOxnQJaA/CNFcOCHH2c5YVs2MFAx0ivmMiKeZ/lzn/wpoKywDqB4GwR017WUN8QGMMQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:4c11:: with SMTP id z17mr5505063wmf.59.1572381508428; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Hartley Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:38:16 -0400 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000042e6a00596129972" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Agenda requests for Singapore X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:38:33 -0000 --00000000000042e6a00596129972 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, A reminder... please send your slot requests by Friday. And remember that Monday is the last day for draft submissions. Cheers Matt On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 4:55 PM Matt Hartley wrote: > All, > > The IETF draft agenda for Singapore is out - you can find it at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/agenda. > > > That means it's time for us to start putting our own agenda together. We > have two sessions, both on Tuesday November 19: > Tuesday Afternoon session 1: 13:30 - 1500 > Tuesday afternoon session 3: 17:10 - 18:40 > > Please send slot requests to me and the Chairs by the end of the day on > Friday November 1st (that's the end of next week). We'll need details of > the draft(s), speaker and how long you need. > > Cheers > > Matt/Lou/Pavan > > Important dates: > > 2019-10-25 (Friday): Final agenda to be published. > 2019-11-04 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59. Upload using the ID Submission Tool. > 2019-11-04 (Monday): Standard rate registration and payment cut-off at UTC 23:59.. > 2019-11-06 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. > 2019-11-11 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59. > 2019-11-11 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. > 2019-12-13 (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by UTC 23:59. Upload using the Meeting Materials Management Tool. > 2020-01-06 (Monday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date by UTC 23:59. > > --00000000000042e6a00596129972 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

A reminder... please se= nd your slot requests by Friday. And remember that Monday is the last day f= or draft submissions.

Cheers

<= div>Matt

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 4:55 PM Matt Hartley <mhartley.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
All,

The IETF draft agenda for Singapore is = out - you can find it at=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/agenda.

That means it's time for us to start putting our own agenda toget= her. We have two sessions, both on Tuesday November 19:
Tues= day Afternoon session 1: 13:30 - 1500
Tuesday afternoon sess= ion 3: 17:10 - 18:40

Please send slot requests to = me and the Chairs by the end of the day on Friday November 1st (that's = the end of next week). We'll need details of the draft(s), speaker and = how long you need.

Cheers

=
Matt/Lou/Pavan

Important dates:
= 
2019-10-25 (Friday): Fina=
l agenda to be published.
2019-11-04 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, inc=
luding -00) by UTC 23:59. Upload using the ID Submission Tool.
2019-11-04 (Monday): Standard rate registration and payment cut-off at UTC =
23:59..
2019-11-06 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Uploa=
d using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2019-11-11 (Monday): Registration cancellation cut-off at UTC 23:59.
2019-11-11 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by UTC 23:59. Upload=
 using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2019-12-13 (Friday): Proceedings submission cutoff date by UTC 23:59. Uploa=
d using the Meeting Materials Management Tool.
2020-01-06 (Monday): Proceedings submission corrections cutoff date by UTC =
23:59.

--00000000000042e6a00596129972-- From nobody Tue Oct 29 18:49:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB0B1200A3; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:49:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <157240016232.11050.15093906752187995117@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:49:22 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-12.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 01:49:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Scenarios and Simulation Results of PCE in Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Xiaohong Huang Caixia Kou Zhenqiang Li Penghui Mi Filename : draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-12.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2019-10-29 Abstract: Requirements for providing the End to End(E2E) performance assurance are emerging within the service provider networks. While there are various technology solutions, there is no single solution that can fulfill these requirements for a native IP network. In particular, there is a need for a universal (E2E) solution that can cover both intra- and inter-domain scenarios. One feasible E2E traffic engineering solution is the addition of central control in a native IP network. This document describes various complex scenarios and simulation results when applying the Path Computation Element (PCE) in a native IP network. This solution, referred to as Centralized Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR), integrates the advantage of using distributed protocols and the power of a centralized control technology, providing traffic engineering for native IP networks in a manner that applies equally to intra- and inter-domain scenarios. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 30 02:54:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2FC120024; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 02:54:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <157242929426.32573.3014840754886744440@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 02:54:54 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics-01.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 09:54:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG models for VN/TE Performance Monitoring Telemetry and Scaling Intent Autonomics Authors : Young Lee Dhruv Dhody Satish Karunanithi Ricard Vilalta Daniel King Daniele Ceccarelli Filename : draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics-01.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2019-10-30 Abstract: This document provides YANG data models that describe performance monitoring telemetry and scaling intent mechanism for TE-tunnels and Virtual Networks (VN). The models presented in this draft allow customers to subscribe to and monitor their key performance data of their interest on the level of TE-tunnel or VN. The models also provide customers with the ability to program autonomic scaling intent mechanism on the level of TE-tunnel as well as VN. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-actn-pm-telemetry-autonomics-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 30 12:17:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE86D120805 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GILy8AOsnXlM for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3FC6120255 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id s1so3633211wro.0 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=x6ji6Ese1J7bgUZkz9CYB//+AwXevp9u/Recx4KDluU=; b=pXuN1JAn2tv3336Sdp7Fs1KAnTHXY0ZIm98gLulLg2bJDBse/z1uZXx+LIWFXjQS5N Aov+LHTmeBymjLFl36AEWfhEGeYT34wp/umv3nIYmP5/zADryyEbrGszwEA8tOCB8ilu cw39JCnlnA0iFOJlX2uxSLNuZk/DXWXHpXRUoGZmlW3yLfh+HTN2WAdnbF3F5+XkyV5R MFWceueO4lt99iSeNIv+IRYJgCFZ2V76c5Jda755MaBSduCu+9RBlI7H17Oxk3mRLJU9 WxsQUvAuFbR26ICfJ73N0v0gYaavVOSytVvwujI/sMGMtln2sGNCDkJo0N1+5fOgJH3D 0wiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=x6ji6Ese1J7bgUZkz9CYB//+AwXevp9u/Recx4KDluU=; b=tPqni02boUZTK/57d1bBsuS8jG/l319aixG9RwizGNmTWU/7+bVHYJycF0ZXLXq9+O 4ZTEWjRE3IYMfVtoY3/JCx6Tc3KzZ3U5gi0xMFZTb03H4FuGdafVH/2CEO2fPWMNX9VV eWEWsz3Y9dyfRyKWHzMLGzYNwYkjFSZPswms8R+kAAQbFqYH3/ntjrb156NW6i9atQrO CSm2zoFvfKUoDjY5dDCOWmnxnVA3VdKfef4nETzEcQ7WrHAs1dCHFadgEp/p8YI2r1Fa FxLHCw1fC4rzsjjVqAZbo1gbIrn2BYIgvEnZ/qTdtNDQ9UtslnsE91Dlh+Ss0qcyncCA WfWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVxGCK/0poWuu1S9RL09fuR/PKg664V6V+McJzmyFLDA3oDDI8e 0x4ZQEl438tZkEaioqBOTJtsJg2/jtPsTzdI72zHFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwpy8gyy7iLzXVAiVUw8RQawS3ijjivO/o+Qiqmak/BGxJJ+U2lEpGP14Z9APbCPKKGrYeqm44ul5suj3bBo7s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:101:: with SMTP id o1mr1430009wrx.394.1572463022085; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:17:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Hartley Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:16:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="000000000000dab2a50596259330" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Fwd: Approved Liaison Statement from ETSI ISG NFV to IETF TEAS X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:17:08 -0000 --000000000000dab2a50596259330 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dab2a3059625932e" --000000000000dab2a3059625932e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This went to CCAMP and teas-chairs, but not the TEAS WG for some reason. So, forwarding in case anyone hasn't seen it... Cheers Matt ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: ETSI NFVsupport Date: Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 2:28 AM Subject: Approved Liaison Statement from ETSI ISG NFV to IETF TEAS To: vbeeram@juniper.net , lberger@labn.net < lberger@labn.net>, teas-chairs@ietf.org , Daniele Ceccarelli , Fatai Zhang < zhangfatai@huawei.com> Cc: Deborah Brungard , Martin Vigoureux < martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Alvaro Retana , ccamp@ietf.org , ETSI NFVsupport , Cristina Badulescu_Internet , Joan Triay_Internet , Zarrar Yousaf < Zarrar.Yousaf@neclab.eu>, Diego Lopez_Internet Dear All, Please find attached an approved Liaison Statement from ETSI ISG NFV to the IETF TEAS. Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact the ETSI NFV Technical Manager Joan Triay, the NFV Chairman Diego Lopez or NFVSupport@etsi.org *best regards* *Louise Clarke* *=E2=80=93* Standardisation Support Professional CSC *ETSI* =E2=97=8F www.etsi.org/nfv =E2=97=8F *NFVSupport@etsi.org * Phone: +33 (0)4 92 94 49 12 =E2=97=8F Mobile: +33 (0)6 67 33 34 92 This email may contain confidential information and is intended for the use of the addressee only. Any unauthorized use may be unlawful. If you receive this email by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your email software. Thank you for your co-operation. --000000000000dab2a3059625932e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This went to CCAMP and teas-chairs, but not the TEAS = WG for some reason. So, forwarding in case anyone hasn't seen it...

Cheers

Matt
--------= -- Forwarded message ---------
From: ETSI NFVsupport <NFVsupport@etsi.org>
Date: Mon, Sep 30, 2= 019 at 2:28 AM
Subject: Approved Liaison Statement from ETSI ISG NFV to = IETF TEAS
To: vbeeram@juniper.net= <vbeeram@juniper.net>= , lberger@labn.net <lberger@labn.net>, teas-chairs@ietf.org <teas-chairs@ietf.org>, Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com&g= t;, Fatai Zhang <zhangfatai@hua= wei.com>
Cc: Deborah Brungard <db3546@att.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, Alvaro Retana <aretana@cisco.com>, ccamp@ietf.org <ccamp@ietf.org>, ETSI NFVsupport <NFVsupport@etsi.org>, Cristina Badulescu_Internet <cristina.badulescu@ericsson= .com>, Joan Triay_Internet <triay_marques@docomolab-euro.com>, Zarrar Yousaf <= Zarrar.Yousaf@neclab.eu>,= Diego Lopez_Internet <d= iego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>


Dear All,

=C2=A0

Please find attached an approve= d Liaison Statement from ETSI ISG NFV to the IETF TEAS.

=C2=A0

Should you require any further = information please do not hesitate to contact the ETSI NFV Technical Manage= r Joan Triay, the NFV Chairman Diego Lopez or NFVSupport@etsi.org

=C2=A0

best re= gards

=C2=A0<= /span>

Louise = Clarke =C2=A0=E2=80=93 Standardisation Support Professional CSC

ETSI =E2=97=8F www.etsi.org/nfv<= /span> =E2=97=8F<= /span> NFVSuppo= rt@etsi.org

Phone: +33= (0)4 92 94 49 12 =E2=97=8F<= /span> Mobile: +33 (0)6 67 33 34 = 92

=C2=A0<= u>

This email may contain confidential information and is= intended for the use of the addressee only. Any unauthorized use may be un= lawful. If you receive this email by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by= using the reply facility in your email software. Thank you for your co-ope= ration.

=C2=A0

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X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8273; X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2019 07:43:33.4203 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c4bd2158-cc10-4f54-7618-08d75b7a88e2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR05MB4249 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-EndToEndLatency: 00:00:03.2529103 X-MS-Exchange-Processed-By-BccFoldering: 15.20.2387.009 X-Microsoft-Antispam-Mailbox-Delivery: ucf:0; jmr:0; ex:0; auth:0; dest:I; ENG:(20160514016)(750127)(520011016)(944506383)(944626516); X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: =?us-ascii?Q?Foo9Z6gDy41tg1VH7c44uEthvyLdtv2mHUZwHCOlECI6qbdawAwB1kjzlGc4?= =?us-ascii?Q?RZkBvnVPaz5Q2H8bFizf3uq9vVouX6eu4K8n277dtlc0F5KCwhK53SgLyLVC?= =?us-ascii?Q?b/ROGnOzHGratOLl9FFI+Rlpcq3MMYJU1vSVAWyE/PZtypBRFjTWUvRvXkrf?= 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=?us-ascii?Q?Qny7ciMXhoWb+U72F20omahgah/rWgHJrzXeQ2ueXWcRmERE0RwRAWHA2dnB?= =?us-ascii?Q?HEnw13XYFeBAUApolHMKSjd6Exf30GwDye4UXXR/tVn+h7vv7VamSNQqDfBn?= =?us-ascii?Q?rdFQ54xZ1GN7E1lUhrhOeM9j6sJmf6sSGAAwFvIN64zRYFmzbEnlHmNCyD67?= =?us-ascii?Q?zVtIF2n4FMdVz/bbVihdf9ymHPxjJcEh4mbYgWkxlMOINAyjWXpHdVQ=3D?= Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, Tarek Saad wrote: > Hi, >=20 > We are wondering if =E2=80=9Cordered by user=E2=80=9D has any effect on a= (config > false)/state list? > Given RFC6020 specifies =E2=80=9Cordered by system=E2=80=9D as the defaul= t order, does > this mean it is the order assumed for a state list with =E2=80=9Cordered = by > user=E2=80=9D? There is no effect "on the wire"; the entries are sent in the order determined by the server in both cases. But it informs to the consumer of the data model that the order of the list entries carries some meaning. /martin --_003_99DCD09F9243469AAC3785C085F58452junipernet_ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: attachment; creation-date="Thu, 31 Oct 2019 05:29:26 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 31 Oct 2019 05:29:26 GMT" Content-ID: Received: from CO2PR05MB2645.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:60::27) by BYAPR05MB4341.namprd05.prod.outlook.com with HTTPS via BYAPR07CA0050.NAMPRD07.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 08:48:04 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=fail; b=mJSjeH/ExDWK0XpbL5J7StAKrcNBx10T3ac0E9LF6U8mmqgt/huvPDut+jOTrrBWV4lWR5AWJgWWgGt44e2D5Q6ShfcfjjcEVpLW4DmaAak8+kQtdsq1bbzrVV7Ua5tC4X5hmUm26fcLeQFhDsTuOZ91JwsmGz9DN8Ht1V0sSig0eI/ucZ7bj9vlP3CExEbra8Ziw9Sl7qeqb/C+G8DIMA+PBwIJ1rKCgOB7wRfoiNVMXeGYyXs/CKM29uQF2NBNhv4lAd/VLoNRji/2wAav9oc9oT7hJJgcmymbLb8JSOG+aXW4KdlT7WmetV8Mz9JjadOY8O7ZKNzw3QeEBhdmlg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 08:42:57AM +0100, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Tarek Saad wrote: > > Hi, > >=20 > > We are wondering if =E2=80=9Cordered by user=E2=80=9D has any effect on= a (config > > false)/state list? > > Given RFC6020 specifies =E2=80=9Cordered by system=E2=80=9D as the defa= ult order, does > > this mean it is the order assumed for a state list with =E2=80=9Cordere= d by > > user=E2=80=9D? >=20 > There is no effect "on the wire"; the entries are sent in the order > determined by the server in both cases. But it informs to the > consumer of the data model that the order of the list entries carries > some meaning. > For operational is always about what the system actually does. For ordered by user entries configured by intended, the order of entries used by the system should be the order defined by the users but ultimately operational needs to report what is actually used. (If a system fails to honor ordered by user, this should be visible from comparing operational and intended. This is essential for debugging.) /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 --_003_99DCD09F9243469AAC3785C085F58452junipernet_-- From nobody Thu Oct 31 03:27:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828451200F1; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <157251765647.30404.18087034866262544442@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:27:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-07.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:27:36 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : A Yang Data Model for VN Operation Authors : Young Lee Dhruv Dhody Daniele Ceccarelli Igor Bryskin Bin Yeong Yoon Filename : draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-07.txt Pages : 54 Date : 2019-10-31 Abstract: This document provides a YANG data model generally applicable to any mode of Virtual Network (VN) operation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-actn-vn-yang-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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ICg9PSksIDAgY29tbWVudHMgKC0tKS4NCg0KICAgICBSdW4gaWRuaXRzIHdpdGggdGhlIC0tdmVy Ym9zZSBvcHRpb24gZm9yIG1vcmUgZGV0YWlsZWQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQNCiAgICAgdGhl IGl0ZW1zIGFib3ZlLg0KDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Oct 31 10:16:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296B01200D7; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:16:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: Cc: ipr-announce@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157254218615.30484.17087889112791452579@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:16:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] IPR Disclosure Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 17:16:26 -0000 Dear Xufeng Liu, Igor Bryskin, Vishnu Pavan Beeram, Tarek Saad, Himanshu C. Shah, Oscar Gonzalez de Dios: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "YANG Data Model for Traffic Engineering (TE) Topologies" (draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2019-10-31 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3837/). The title of the IPR disclosure is "Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo" Thank you IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Oct 31 11:02:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2DE12008B for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eoe6MFkOHq4q for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75D52120073 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id u9so4887867pfn.4 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:02:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RvKCuIXy+R8CneV7Q4f8cRkgxU+HNAn+tsCS8VC6pLI=; b=oWQ6Sel8fjAXKsiFEHStmw6mPB9IGJFRaXeSNWYdIQnQz8hktLFcmyusKKPl+zoFxu etNHoMgEBzaKDVcIKArw7YXEdLbkbd0304T0c85F9T10STHdLFk313Rb7QC7ywMjhMNR mA9GmdjVcEbCA4Rp5hJmpjF6l2UzvG90gJnHQipp9ah7dHO0yHRogKrMhMbMODb8Zq0f thmLwAmh760ShAt88uzLwvSt5scdhq9cVMQn/yK/Z6q/boOReqO4zFEN6DiKNRtbfbVs eUlCfX2P4E+/L0IwAugI6sZyKzngMPyJ1NOPPHQFE/anAhHy82FQO3/EB9hy0YAI2UEx TiMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=RvKCuIXy+R8CneV7Q4f8cRkgxU+HNAn+tsCS8VC6pLI=; b=W0j/ODE9w6dfWh2z2dUxuB6pgOZVJnkl9nDTWkKhKBK3jebuC7IWcqsFviKdv5gDLO +scU6eNtbe9s0XZd8Fe+xoXys+q9cMjyaPlagejCpHxGax2OQUtOkEZkCSatp6sbI32P Gd1Jb9GiWtebTrrqM2rHw1i0GzVQc1YEfD3hxSutKGPiscLNn1cCejzIjdcUoMg2XdCb mZ+mAfefd11pZobtNeUcjl80aiS05hh4OGDeEVMMpnWNUsLsvJURozZ/e8u+O9rOXGvI sorLT22Jg4Auf3yeXavGcEtlHWkP3Q+pAgDWbdr4pSWoBAc5N0lIIeMf+unR+vDhkntj nN7w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV3BvXbAWxoC9cb/yowo46BotgE7x9YiDOn6E1bkDX9UHsgAYcK WB/YPQb6eqU8R1qMNENdhVmWx3YrG3RCfxNhZwYe4+4v2ok= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqztqVt8d26VH9qxMxUj0M48yYVkYXydbj401TB7XeM3El2ruwjYNYFSKXE5P0m6J2MStyozDNiAjrZVNWaZjmw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:b38b:: with SMTP id e11mr9474953pjr.115.1572544928245; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157254218615.30484.17087889112791452579@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157254218615.30484.17087889112791452579@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:01:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d76a80059638a5cb" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Fwd: IPR Disclosure Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:02:12 -0000 --000000000000d76a80059638a5cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As part of a recent internal audit, Juniper=E2=80=99s legal team determined= that one or more claims in patent application no. 14/515,074 are essential to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-22 and an IPR submission was made as soon as possible. However, there is realization that this submission would be considered seriously late since the filing date of this patent application was in 2014. Juniper apologizes for the late submission and is taking necessary steps to ensure that this doesn=E2=80=99t happen again. Also, on behalf of the Juniper contributors (Tarek and I) on this draft, I would like to confirm that we had no knowledge of this and are not related to the above patent application. Regards, -Pavan (and Tarek) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: IETF Secretariat Date: Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:16 PM Subject: [Teas] IPR Disclosure Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo To: Cc: , Dear Xufeng Liu, Igor Bryskin, Vishnu Pavan Beeram, Tarek Saad, Himanshu C. Shah, Oscar Gonzalez de Dios: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "YANG Data Model for Traffic Engineering (TE) Topologies" (draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2019-10-31 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3837/). The title of the IPR disclosure i= s "Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo" Thank you IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --000000000000d76a80059638a5cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As part of a recent internal audit, Juniper=E2=80=99s legal team determined that one or more claims in patent application no. 14/515,074 are essential to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-22 and an IPR submission was made a= s soon as possible. However, there is realization that this submission would be considered seriously lat= e since the filing date of this patent application was in 2014. Juniper apolo= gizes for the late submission and is taking necessary steps to ensure that this doesn=E2=80=99t happen again.

=C2=A0

Also= , on behalf of the Juniper contributors (Tarek and I) on this draft, I would like to confirm that we h= ad no knowledge of this and are not related to the above patent application.

=C2=A0

Rega= rds,

-Pav= an (and Tarek)


------= ---- Forwarded message ---------
From: IETF Secretariat <ietf-ipr@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, Oct 31, 2019= at 12:16 PM
Subject: [Teas] IPR Disclosure Juniper's Statement abou= t IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo
To: <draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo@ietf.o= rg>
Cc: <teas@ietf.org&g= t;, <ipr-announce@ietf.org= >


Dear Xufeng Liu, Igor Bryskin, Vishnu Pavan Beeram, T= arek Saad, Himanshu C. Shah, Oscar Gonzalez de Dios:


An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "YANG = Data
Model for Traffic Engineering (TE) Topologies" (draft-ietf-teas-yang-t= e-topo)
was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2019-10-31 and has been posted on<= br> the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures"
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3837/). The title of the= IPR disclosure is
"Juniper's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-= topo"


Thank you

IETF Secretariat

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--000000000000d76a80059638a5cb--