From nobody Sat Aug 1 00:03:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966943A07F0 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:03:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vc8z7Z225E_f for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F04223A07EC for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 00:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.19] (unknown [122.2.101.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F9D9326D34; Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:03:40 +0200 (CEST) To: Daniele Ceccarelli , TEAS WG References: <30b4c711-ee04-4258-8f98-16e2cab1a4e0@pi.nu> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:03:34 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] the relationship VN and VPN X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 07:03:47 -0000 Daniele, Does that mean that every VPN has an VN underlay? /Loa On 31/07/2020 21:11, Daniele Ceccarelli wrote: > Hi Loa, > > You can look at the VN as a collection of TE tunnels/LSPs to connect multiple end points possibly through multiple domains/autonomous systems. > The relationship is overlay (VPN) versus underlay (VN). > > Cheers, > Daniele > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas On Behalf Of Loa Andersson > Sent: den 31 juli 2020 13:45 > To: TEAS WG > Subject: [Teas] the relationship VN and VPN > > WG, > > Probably revealing that I have not followed this for some time. > > What is the relationship between Virtual Network (VN) and Virtual Private Network (VPN). > > Is a VPN a VN ?? > > > /Loa > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Tue Aug 4 00:49:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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(IST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by lhreml723-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:49:35 +0100 Received: from fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.34) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:49:34 +0200 Received: from fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.34]) by fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.34]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:49:34 +0200 From: Italo Busi To: "netmod@ietf.org" CC: TEAS WG Thread-Topic: Issue with path statements in RPC Thread-Index: AdZqMvZLkjbLs0OkQ3ec1fn/B/O1LQ== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:49:34 +0000 Message-ID: <9c365f0d89ae4f9c9054eed5c4730d59@huawei.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes 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xdAvltczNKUGOoXdgHqa6aiigR//2Q== --_004_9c365f0d89ae4f9c9054eed5c4730d59huaweicom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 4 02:59:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D0F3A1051; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWA9g1bdga8i; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kddi.com (athena3.kddi.com [27.90.165.196]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DE93A104D; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 02:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LTMC2121.kddi.com (post-send [10.206.2.120]) by kddi.com (KDDI Mail) with ESMTP id 79B1CE0054; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2145.kddi.com ([10.206.0.236] [10.206.0.236]) by LTMC2121.kddi.com with ESMTP; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:45 +0900 Received: from LTMC2145.kddi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504AD3A006B; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2151.kddi.com (post-incheck [10.206.0.239]) by LTMC2145.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4529F3A0065; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2151.kddi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2151.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0749xiNQ002199; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:59:45 +0900 Received: from LTMC2151.kddi.com.mid_103909657 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2151.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0749nhxj040160; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:49:44 +0900 X-SA-MID: 103909657 Received: from KDDI1801PC1319 ([10.211.4.86] [10.211.4.86]) by post-smtp2.kddi.com with ESMTPA; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:49:43 +0900 From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" To: Cc: , =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNVw6ZBsoQiAbJEJCc0xpGyhC?= , =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCQzAxKRsoQiAbJEJEKz8uGyhC?= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:49:43 +0900 Message-ID: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdZp751Do5Ui5IRiRIKW7ggpdXrXWg== Content-Language: ja X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 09:59:53 -0000 Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th meeting, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model in section 6.1.1. However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per qos-profile which corresponds to key network performance constraints including bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 of RFC8299. As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be mapped to a VN like this: module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: +--rw te-service-mapping! +--rw te-mapping +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] +--rw mapping-id +--rw target-class-id? -> /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles | /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier | /id +--rw map-type? identityref +--rw availability-type? identityref +--rw (te)? +--:(vn) | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id +--:(te-topo) | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id | +--rw abstract-node? | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id +--:(te-tunnel) +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined there as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang should also map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service level mapping like this: augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile /l3vpn-svc:profile: +--rw (te)? +--:(vn) +--rw vn-ap-ref? -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes /l3vpn-svc:class: +--rw (te)? +--:(vn) +--rw vn-ap-ref? -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from our service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. How do you think? Thanks in advance, Kenichi -- Kenichi Ogaki KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com From nobody Tue Aug 4 03:54:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C867A3A03EC; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:54:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iENtH5RuMnzy; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AD393A03EA; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 03:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id g14so4199303iom.0; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 03:54:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H7JUHzPwbsopeh/fCp4J/u6oQgy7JIUW281xyhPXRbo=; b=NNovq4KoW4/AMy02VfHE2IuMdbchaR9PujQt8wEPVTpuUppR3x/WacXwt+B+x3i4lH eWd+mG87y/WlZzDdpxIpM9e7aNBzW4fExI4DAzJXQVwPfq0++nEAOBu1xCYQ2iQwgQlN QHXhcaaQHJ95oGz646FlfeCzTlX5w+AcqP/nT/saBmI+l0i8X8OOm4xqpm1vGPSEe1o4 Xx5ihUIgYC322BKHWYp719HVMZ5DFWhbR65pwLOpvbVdQuDIFc1m4rGB8uiMcHmN90tm 76rlilyK9L44hMVjtQnOP4tq3pHD3YEqe2V+G65/6VENWGCWnZBClN4rZgkwY03gOGN7 Se1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H7JUHzPwbsopeh/fCp4J/u6oQgy7JIUW281xyhPXRbo=; b=QIRku1u7pV8EaxXnffHzesA2PiCubYRTJmRK06+cwjmgpVdZ9dDueW52VC6o7REtda mrVvLTMbLLr+kZ8rMiKrxdZO7GuLkx38nPeyw211io57h8AH8g7mTL18pL5hWjYv9MyN CHlC18GFBc8Im87Ousa1tS+wI8/f+mXsll/zqTJJiCH9ZLLSjA2E/GFBJR8VyTQNfAEI JafOErFAL8rtH9YrdXI4XVmXJe56G24/NNH/YA60XmRc7EFJsLBNq1aD8P2e4sz1MHMi gZCbLEtm3LpbFXfFOwCqkFCTDBBGsyOdgOWa6IkLSf98XE/d32WURmlCAC9ryfkBMUK+ LFUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ReK36YsvSCyDqTAqU+JEe/TsfgDLFgutKjrhHhC0EkRiz38og GMwqQG0eSvSK23PgXZrJbAs72rSQRM6ibeD9NJH2doZxewc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz811EcDZCgtKovs50ZdgZn6Dd/eyF5GRjWVtOqDzpqGiuxQiC9CBxuthvWS2FJDyFffwGWxYvHY/i+2SBDGUQ= X-Received: by 2002:a02:ac4:: with SMTP id 187mr4925016jaw.71.1596538479175; Tue, 04 Aug 2020 03:54:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> In-Reply-To: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:24:02 +0530 Message-ID: To: "Ogaki, Kenichi" Cc: draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org, "TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org)" , =?UTF-8?B?5a6u5Z2CIOaLk+S5nw==?= , =?UTF-8?B?5Li55769IOacneS/oQ==?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 10:54:42 -0000 Hi Kenichi, I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes in the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link and thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. Even in the example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM YANG. Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you. Thanks! Dhruv On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi wrote: > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th meeting, = we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to te-service-mappi= ng-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is allowed= to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model in section= 6.1.1. > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per qos-profile w= hich corresponds to key network performance constraints including bandwidth= and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 of RFC8299. > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be mapped= to a VN like this: > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > +--rw te-service-mapping! > +--rw te-mapping > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > +--rw mapping-id > +--rw target-class-id? -> /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn= -profiles > | /valid-provider-identi= fiers/qos-profile-identifier > | /id > +--rw map-type? identityref > +--rw availability-type? identityref > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > +--:(te-topo) > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > | +--rw abstract-node? > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > +--:(te-tunnel) > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under site-network-acce= ss and also mapped to classification rules defined there as described in 6.= 12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang should also map a VNAP to th= e local qos-profile even without vpn-service level mapping like this: > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-ac= cess > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-ac= cess > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3v= pn-svc:classes > /l3vpn-svc:class: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from our s= ervice objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > How do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Kenichi > > -- > Kenichi Ogaki > KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. > +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com > > > From nobody Tue Aug 4 18:08:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4843A0D97; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khVtl6M6No0L; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kddi.com (athena3.kddi.com [27.90.165.196]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783D63A0D95; Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LTMC2122.kddi.com (post-send [10.206.2.120]) by kddi.com (KDDI Mail) with ESMTP id 3387AE010C; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:08:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2144.kddi.com ([10.206.0.236] [10.206.0.236]) by LTMC2122.kddi.com with ESMTP; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:08:44 +0900 Received: from LTMC2144.kddi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0899F4C005E; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:08:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com (post-incheck [10.206.0.239]) by LTMC2144.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16DA4C005C; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:08:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2152.kddi.com with ESMTP id 07518hQ0021167; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:08:43 +0900 Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com.mid_103778285 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2152.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0750wgsl006798; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:58:42 +0900 X-SA-MID: 103778285 Received: from KDDI1801PC1319 ([10.211.4.86] [10.211.4.86]) by post-smtp2.kddi.com with ESMTPA; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:58:42 +0900 From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" To: "'Dhruv Dhody'" Cc: =?iso-2022-jp?B?JxskQjVcOmQbKEIgGyRCQnNMaRsoQic=?= , =?iso-2022-jp?B?JxskQkMwMSkbKEIgGyRCRCs/LhsoQic=?= , , "'TEAS WG'" References: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 09:58:42 +0900 Message-ID: <000401d66ac3$90263b80$b072b280$@kddi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQLrTqqs9sN2nyjQ+IlPZj1F7qTEtgFrnPmhpvOL4VA= Content-Language: ja X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 01:08:48 -0000 Hi Dhruv, Thanks for the prompt reply. >There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM YANG. As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile include latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, based VN mapping mechanism. >Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you. Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and RFC8299, Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/ Q.12 from David Ball Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi Cc: $B5\:d(B $BBsLi(B ; $BC01)(B $BD+?.(B ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Kenichi, I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes in the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link and thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. Even in the example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM YANG. Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you. Thanks! Dhruv On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi wrote: > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th meeting, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model in section 6.1.1. > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per qos-profile which corresponds to key network performance constraints including bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 of RFC8299. > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be mapped to a VN like this: > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > +--rw te-service-mapping! > +--rw te-mapping > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > +--rw mapping-id > +--rw target-class-id? -> /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles > | /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier > | /id > +--rw map-type? identityref > +--rw availability-type? identityref > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > +--:(te-topo) > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > | +--rw abstract-node? > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > +--:(te-tunnel) > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined there as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang should also map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service level mapping like this: > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes > /l3vpn-svc:class: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from our service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > How do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Kenichi > > -- > Kenichi Ogaki > KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. > +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com > > > _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Wed Aug 5 03:05:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073EE3A104A; 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Wed, 05 Aug 2020 03:05:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> <000401d66ac3$90263b80$b072b280$@kddi.com> In-Reply-To: <000401d66ac3$90263b80$b072b280$@kddi.com> From: Young Lee Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 19:05:34 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Ogaki, Kenichi" Cc: Dhruv Dhody , =?UTF-8?B?5a6u5Z2CIOaLk+S5nw==?= , =?UTF-8?B?5Li55769IOacneS/oQ==?= , draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org, TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f208e505ac1e8357" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 10:05:50 -0000 --000000000000f208e505ac1e8357 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kenichi and Dhruv, I think we can relax the mapping between VPN: VN to 1:N as Kenichi was asking this question. I carefully read RFC 8299 and captured the following: in section 6.12.3.2 where QoS profile is defined: o latency: used to define the latency constraint of the class. The latency constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible latency or a latency boundary expressed in milliseconds. How this latency constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of the service: a strict priority queuing may be used on the access and in the core network, and/or a low-latency routing configuration may be created for this traffic class. o jitter: used to define the jitter constraint of the class. The jitter constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible jitter or a jitter boundary expressed in microseconds. How this jitter constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of the service: a strict priority queuing may be used on the access and in the core network, and/or a jitter-aware routing configuration may be created for this traffic class. o bandwidth: used to define a guaranteed amount of bandwidth for the class of service. It is expressed as a percentage. The "guaranteed-bw-percent" parameter uses available bandwidth as a reference. When the qos-profile container is implemented on the CE side, svc-output-bandwidth is taken into account as a reference. When it is implemented on the PE side, svc-input- bandwidth is used. By default, the bandwidth reservation is only guaranteed at the access level. The user can use the "end-to-end" leaf to request an end-to-end bandwidth reservation, including across the MPLS transport network. (In other words, the SP will activate something in the MPLS core to ensure that the bandwidth request from the customer will be fulfilled by the MPLS core as well.) How this is done (e.g., RSVP reservation, controller reservation) is out of scope for this document. >From the highighted text, VPN may have different QoS profile within VPN identifier. Although it is primarily meant for CE-PE level commitment, depending on the operator's need, it can be extended site to site (source t= o destination) per the colored text. This implies a set of different TE-tunnels that meet the corresponding QoS profile can be supported. In that sense, I think 1:N mapping between a VPN instance to a VN instance is possible. Kenichi, is that what you are trying to say? Please correct me if my understaning is incorrect. Thanks. Young 2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 10:08, O= gaki, Kenichi =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: > Hi Dhruv, > > Thanks for the prompt reply. > > >There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to b= e > done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires maintaining= a > separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be mapped > to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM YANG. > > As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile > include latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, > based VN mapping mechanism. > > >Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you= . > > Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and > RFC8299, Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/ > Q.12 from David Ball > > Thanks, > Kenichi > > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody > Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM > To: Ogaki, Kenichi > Cc: =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F ; =E4=B8= =B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 ; > draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org) > > Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping > > Hi Kenichi, > > I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes i= n > the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link and > thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. > > Even in the example > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the > 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. > > There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to be > done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires maintaining= a > separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be mapped > to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM YANG. > > Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you. > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi wrote: > > > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th meeting= , > we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to > te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is > allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model i= n > section 6.1.1. > > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per qos-profile > which corresponds to key network performance constraints including > bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 of RFC8299. > > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be > mapped to a VN like this: > > > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > > +--rw te-service-mapping! > > +--rw te-mapping > > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > > +--rw mapping-id > > +--rw target-class-id? -> > /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles > > | > /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier > > | /id > > +--rw map-type? identityref > > +--rw availability-type? identityref > > +--rw (te)? > > +--:(vn) > > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > > +--:(te-topo) > > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > > | +--rw abstract-node? > > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > > +--:(te-tunnel) > > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under > site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined there > as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang should > also map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service level > mapping like this: > > > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > > > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > > +--rw (te)? > > +--:(vn) > > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > > > /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > > > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes > > /l3vpn-svc:class: > > +--rw (te)? > > +--:(vn) > > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from our > service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > > > How do you think? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Kenichi > > > > -- > > Kenichi Ogaki > > KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. > > +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > --000000000000f208e505ac1e8357 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kenichi and Dhruv,
<= br>
I think we can relax the mapping between VPN: VN to 1:N as Ke= nichi was asking this question. I carefully read RFC 8299 and captured the = following:
in section 6.12.3.2 where QoS profile is defined:

  o  latency: used to define the latency constraint of the cl=
ass.  The
      latency constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible latency
      or a latency boundary expressed in milliseconds.  How this latency
      constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of
      the service: a strict priority queuing=
 may be used on the access
      and in the core network, and/or a low-latency routing
      configuration may be created for this traffic class.

   o  jitter: used to define the jitter constraint of the class.  The
      jitter constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible jitter
      or a jitter boundary expressed in microseconds.  How this jitter
      constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of
      the service: a strict priority queuing=
 may be used on the access
      and in the core network, and/or a jitt=
er-aware routing
      configuration may be created for this traffic class.

   o  bandwidth: used to define a guaranteed amount of bandwidth for the
      class of service.  It is expressed as a percentage.  The
      "guaranteed-bw-percent" parameter uses available bandwidth =
as a
      reference.  When the qos-profile container is implemented on the
      CE side, svc-output-bandwidth is taken into account as a
      reference.  When it is implemented on the PE side, svc-input-
      bandwidth is used.  By default, the bandwidth reservation is only
      guaranteed at the access level.  The u=
ser can use the "end-to-end"
      leaf to request an end-to-end bandwidth reservation, including
      across the MPLS transport network.  (In other words, the SP will
      activate something in the MPLS core to ensure that the bandwidth
      request from the customer will be fulfilled by the MPLS core as
      well.)  How this is done (e.g., RSVP r=
eservation, controller 
      reservation) is out o=
f scope for this document.

From the highighted text, VPN may have different QoS pro=
file within VPN
id=
entifier. Although it is primarily meant for CE-PE level commitment,
= 
depending on the operat=
or's need, it can be extended site to site (source to
destination) per the colored text=
. This implies a set of different TE-tunnels that 
meet the corresponding QoS profile can be =
supported. In that sense, I think 
1:N mapping between a VPN instance to a VN instance is po=
ssible. 

Kenichi, is that what =
you are trying to say? Please correct me if my understaning
is incorrect.  

Thanks.
Young


2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC= =98=A4=EC=A0=84 10:08, Ogaki, Kenichi <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E= =91=EC=84=B1:
Hi Dhruv,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

>There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation n= eeds to be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires ma= intaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can= be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3= SM YANG.

As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile includ= e latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, based VN= mapping mechanism.

>Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to yo= u.

Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and RFC8299= , Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this:
https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/
Q.12 from David Ball

Thanks,
Kenichi

-----Original Message-----
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM
To: Ogaki, Kenichi <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>
Cc: =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F <ta-miyasaka@kddi.com>= ;; =E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 <to-niwa@kddi.com>; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; TEAS WG (teas@ietf.org) <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping

Hi Kenichi,

I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes in = the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link and thu= s would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class.

Even in the example
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#s= ection-6.12.3.2 it says how the
100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes.

There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs= to be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires mainta= ining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all classes can be = mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges as per the L3SM Y= ANG.

Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to you.
Thanks!
Dhruv

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi <ke-oogaki@kddi.com>= ; wrote:
>
> Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors,
>
> Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping?
>
> As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th meetin= g, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to te-service-ma= pping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting.
>
> If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is allo= wed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model in sect= ion 6.1.1.
> However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per qos-profil= e which corresponds to key network performance constraints including bandwi= dth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 of RFC8299.
> As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be map= ped to a VN like this:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-service= s
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:vpn-= service:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw te-service-mapping!
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw te-mapping
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw mapping* [mappin= g-id]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw map= ping-id
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw tar= get-class-id?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -> /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-pro= files
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-prof= ile-identifier
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /id
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw map= -type?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identityref >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw ava= ilability-type?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 identityref
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw (te= )?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 += --:(vn)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 +--rw vn-ref?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> /vn:vn/v= n-list/vn-id
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 += --:(te-topo)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 +--rw vn-topology-id?=C2=A0 =C2=A0te-types:te-topology-id
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 +--rw abstract-node?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 += --:(te-tunnel)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--rw te-tunnel-list*=C2=A0 =C2=A0te:tunnel-ref
>
>
> Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under site-network-a= ccess and also mapped to classification rules defined there as described in= 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang should als= o map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service level mappin= g like this:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn= -svc:site
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:site= -network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:serv= ice/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:prof= ile:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw (te)?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--:(vn)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw vn-ap-ref?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn= -svc:site
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:site= -network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:serv= ice/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /l3vpn-svc:clas= s:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw (te)?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+--:(vn)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--rw vn-ap-ref?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id
>
> Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from ou= r service objectives, the current definition is enough for now.
>
> How do you think?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Kenichi
>
> --
> Kenichi Ogaki
> KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept.
> +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= br>
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"draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org" , 'TEAS WG' Thread-Topic: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Thread-Index: AdZrJsdRA4jnREQdQUCOeweZNGxDmQ== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:15:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.164.150.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 13:15:22 -0000 SGksDQotLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7IyzogT2dha2ksIEtlbmljaGkgW21haWx0bzpr ZS1vb2dha2lAa2RkaS5jb21dIA0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMjDE6jjUwjXI1SA4OjU5DQrK1bz+yMs6 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aGUgc2FtZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudCB0byBMMlNNIG1hcHBpbmcsIGZyb20gb3VyIHNlcnZpY2Ugb2Jq ZWN0aXZlcywgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiBpcyBlbm91Z2ggZm9yIG5vdy4NCj4NCj4g SG93IGRvIHlvdSB0aGluaz8NCj4NCj4gVGhhbmtzIGluIGFkdmFuY2UsDQo+IEtlbmljaGkNCj4N Cj4gLS0NCj4gS2VuaWNoaSBPZ2FraQ0KPiBLRERJIENvcnAuIHwgT3BlcmF0aW9uIEF1dG9tYXRp b24gUHJvbW90aW9uIERlcHQuDQo+ICs4MS0oMCk4MC01OTQ1LTkxMzggfCB3d3cua2RkaS5jb20N Cj4NCj4NCj4NCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NClRlYXMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpUZWFzQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3RlYXMNCg0K From nobody Wed Aug 5 17:37:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B973A0A87; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_uHcAvwBlbw; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kddi.com (athena2.kddi.com [27.90.165.195]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0C83A0A80; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LTMC2123.kddi.com (post-send [10.206.2.120]) by kddi.com (KDDI Mail) with ESMTP id 302E2E0010; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:37:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2145.kddi.com ([10.206.0.236] [10.206.0.236]) by LTMC2123.kddi.com with ESMTP; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:37:19 +0900 Received: from LTMC2145.kddi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1088D3A006B; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:37:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com (post-incheck [10.206.0.239]) by LTMC2145.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053253A0065; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:37:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2152.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0760bInJ002228; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:37:18 +0900 Received: from LTMC2152.kddi.com.mid_103883208 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2152.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0760RIva035525; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:27:18 +0900 X-SA-MID: 103883208 Received: from KDDI1801PC1319 ([10.211.4.86] [10.211.4.86]) by post-smtp2.kddi.com with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:27:17 +0900 From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" To: "'Young Lee'" Cc: "'Dhruv Dhody'" , =?utf-8?B?J+S4uee+vSDmnJ3kv6En?= , =?utf-8?B?J+WuruWdgiDmi5PkuZ8n?= , "'TEAS WG'" , References: <003601d66a44$944a3560$bcdea020$@kddi.com> <000401d66ac3$90263b80$b072b280$@kddi.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:27:17 +0900 Message-ID: <004b01d66b88$571c8720$05559560$@kddi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQLrTqqs9sN2nyjQ+IlPZj1F7qTEtgFrnPmhAwy7MZoCNCvS96bLDs6g Content-Language: ja X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 00:37:23 -0000 Hi Young, Thanks for your comment. >Kenichi, is that what you are trying to say? Please correct me if my = understaning is incorrect. =20 Yes! That=E2=80=99s our intention. Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Young Lee Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 7:06 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi Cc: Dhruv Dhody ; =E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD = =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 ; =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 = =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F ; TEAS WG ; = draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Kenichi and Dhruv, I think we can relax the mapping between VPN: VN to 1:N as Kenichi was = asking this question. I carefully read RFC 8299 and captured the = following: in section 6.12.3.2 where QoS profile is defined: o latency: used to define the latency constraint of the class. The latency constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible latency or a latency boundary expressed in milliseconds. How this latency constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of the service: a strict priority queuing may be used on the access and in the core network, and/or a low-latency routing configuration may be created for this traffic class. o jitter: used to define the jitter constraint of the class. The jitter constraint can be expressed as the lowest possible jitter or a jitter boundary expressed in microseconds. How this jitter constraint will be fulfilled is up to the SP's implementation of the service: a strict priority queuing may be used on the access and in the core network, and/or a jitter-aware routing configuration may be created for this traffic class. o bandwidth: used to define a guaranteed amount of bandwidth for the class of service. It is expressed as a percentage. The "guaranteed-bw-percent" parameter uses available bandwidth as a reference. When the qos-profile container is implemented on the CE side, svc-output-bandwidth is taken into account as a reference. When it is implemented on the PE side, svc-input- bandwidth is used. By default, the bandwidth reservation is only guaranteed at the access level. The user can use the "end-to-end" leaf to request an end-to-end bandwidth reservation, including across the MPLS transport network. (In other words, the SP will activate something in the MPLS core to ensure that the bandwidth request from the customer will be fulfilled by the MPLS core as well.) How this is done (e.g., RSVP reservation, controller=20 reservation) is out of scope for this document. >From the highighted text, VPN may have different QoS profile within VPN = identifier. Although it is primarily meant for CE-PE level commitment, = depending on the operator's need, it can be extended site to site = (source to destination) per the colored text.. This implies a set of different = TE-tunnels that meet the corresponding QoS profile can be supported. In = that sense, I think 1:N mapping between a VPN instance to a VN instance = is possible.=20 Kenichi, is that what you are trying to say? Please correct me if my = understaning is incorrect. =20 Thanks. Young 2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 5=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 = 10:08, Ogaki, Kenichi = >=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: Hi Dhruv, =09 Thanks for the prompt reply. =09 >There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. =09 As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile = include latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, = based VN mapping mechanism. =09 >Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. =09 Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and = RFC8299, Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/ Q.12 from David Ball =09 Thanks, Kenichi =09 -----Original Message----- From: Teas > On = Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi > Cc: =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F >; =E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 = >; = draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org = ; TEAS WG = (teas@ietf.org ) > Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping =09 Hi Kenichi, =09 I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes = in the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link = and thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. =09 Even in the example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. =09 There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. =09 Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. =09 Thanks! Dhruv =09 On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi > wrote: > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th = meeting, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to = te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is = allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model = in section 6.1.1. > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per = qos-profile which corresponds to key network performance constraints = including bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 = of RFC8299. > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be = mapped to a VN like this: > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > +--rw te-service-mapping! > +--rw te-mapping > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > +--rw mapping-id > +--rw target-class-id? -> = /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles > | = /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier > | /id > +--rw map-type? identityref > +--rw availability-type? identityref > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > +--:(te-topo) > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > | +--rw abstract-node? > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > +--:(te-tunnel) > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under = site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined = there as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1 . = Then, te-service-mapping-yang should also map a VNAP to the local = qos-profile even without vpn-service level mapping like this: > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > = /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes > /l3vpn-svc:class: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from = our service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > How do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Kenichi > > -- > Kenichi Ogaki > KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. > +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com =20 > > > =09 _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas =09 =09 From nobody Wed Aug 5 17:59:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F41D3A0AE8; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GgAUVRMCUlvr; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kddi.com (athena4.kddi.com [27.90.165.197]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A0E3A0AD9; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LTMC2123.kddi.com (post-send [10.206.2.120]) by kddi.com (KDDI Mail) with ESMTP id A0EB012018E; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:59:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2144.kddi.com ([10.206.0.236] [10.206.0.236]) by LTMC2123.kddi.com with ESMTP; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:59:38 +0900 Received: from LTMC2144.kddi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA894C005E; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:59:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2154.kddi.com (post-incheck [10.206.0.239]) by LTMC2144.kddi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E5B4C005C; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:59:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from LTMC2154.kddi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2154.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0760xcRA149170; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:59:38 +0900 Received: from LTMC2154.kddi.com.mid_89031732 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2154.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0760nXHb133488; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:49:33 +0900 X-SA-MID: 89031732 Received: from KDDI1801PC1319 ([10.211.4.86] [10.211.4.86]) by post-smtp2.kddi.com with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:49:33 +0900 From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" To: "'Qin Wu'" , "'Dhruv Dhody'" Cc: =?utf-8?B?J+S4uee+vSDmnJ3kv6En?= , =?utf-8?B?J+WuruWdgiDmi5PkuZ8n?= , "'TEAS WG'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:49:33 +0900 Message-ID: <004c01d66b8b$734a1770$59de4650$@kddi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIN7BuY77+tLZglNHdTDcyV88joU6i7OvWw Content-Language: ja X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 00:59:42 -0000 Hi Qin, Thanks for your comments. See comments [KO] inline, please. Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 10:15 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi ; 'Dhruv Dhody' = Cc: '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' ; = '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' ; 'TEAS = WG' ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi, -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ogaki, Kenichi [mailto:ke-oogaki@kddi.com]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 = 8:59 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'Dhruv Dhody' =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' = ; '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' = ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; = 'TEAS WG' =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Dhruv, Thanks for the prompt reply. >There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile = include latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, = based VN mapping mechanism. [Qin]: Kenichi, thanks for heads up. RFC8299 allow you specify site level QoS parameters and = site-network-access level QoS parameters. Each site-nework-access can = support different QoS parameters matching one or multiple traffic flows. These QoS parameters don't need to tie with specific CE-PE connectivity. = It could be used to describe end to end QoS requirements from one site = to another site or one site to multiple destination sites using = target-site leaf-list under match-flow definition. However RFC8299 doesn't describe 1 to 1 relation between target-class-id = and standard-profile, it could be N to 1 relation. [KO] What do you want to mean by? I believe that a target-class-id has = 1:1 relationship to a standard-profile or a custom qos-profile. standard profile (such as golden, silver) can not be simply seen as = network performance constraint. QoS parameters in custom profile (e.g., = latency) should be seen as SLA contract set between customer and = operator, which is still a little different from network performance = constraints used for path computation. [KO] We understand these definitions are not identical. However, from a = (customer facing) service model level, we, operator, must choose and = define SLA and network performance constraints to be = mappable/translatable. If not so, we cannot provision the network lower = than network model level to meet the SLA. So, we need this mapping mechanism. Secondly, we can map one VPN into one VN with multiple VN members, each = VN member describe connective from one site to another destination site = and can support different QoS requirement which is similar to using = site-network-access to support different QoS requirements. Does this satisfy your use case? [KO] I see. If you mean that different VN member is set to different QoS = profile even in the same site-network-access, our latter change request = under site-network-access must be considered. Also, our requirement to add the following groupings to vn-compute in = actn-vn-yang presented? by Dhruv during 108th meeting must be slightly = changed. These groupings are not added directly under vn-compute/input, = but under each vn-compute/input/vn-member-list/vn-member. uses te-types:generic-path-constraints uses te-types:generic-path-optimization >Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and = RFC8299, Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/ Q.12 from David Ball Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi Cc: =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F ; = =E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 ; = draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; TEAS WG = (teas@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Kenichi, I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes = in the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link = and thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. Even in the example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. Thanks! Dhruv On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi = wrote: > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th = meeting, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to = te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is = allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model = in section 6.1.1. > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per = qos-profile which corresponds to key network performance constraints = including bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 = of RFC8299. > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be = mapped to a VN like this: > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > +--rw te-service-mapping! > +--rw te-mapping > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > +--rw mapping-id > +--rw target-class-id? -> = /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles > | = /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier > | /id > +--rw map-type? identityref > +--rw availability-type? identityref > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > +--:(te-topo) > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > | +--rw abstract-node? > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > +--:(te-tunnel) > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under = site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined = there as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang = should also map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service = level mapping like this: > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > = /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes > /l3vpn-svc:class: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from = our service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > How do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Kenichi > > -- > Kenichi Ogaki > KDDI Corp. | Operation Automation Promotion Dept. > +81-(0)80-5945-9138 | www.kddi.com > > > _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Wed Aug 5 19:08:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBA83A0C5B; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 19:08:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UZyuMw4klmEJ; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 19:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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14.03.0487.000; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:08:38 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Ogaki, Kenichi" , 'Dhruv Dhody' CC: =?utf-8?B?J+S4uee+vSDmnJ3kv6En?= , =?utf-8?B?J+WuruWdgiDmi5PkuZ8n?= , 'TEAS WG' , "draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Thread-Index: AdZrkmul5hg3r3P5RU+IIIIA1gZQkg== Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 02:08:37 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.164.123.65] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 02:08:53 -0000 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YmplY3RpdmVzLCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBkZWZpbml0aW9uIGlzIGVub3VnaCBmb3Igbm93Lg0KPg0K PiBIb3cgZG8geW91IHRoaW5rPw0KPg0KPiBUaGFua3MgaW4gYWR2YW5jZSwNCj4gS2VuaWNoaQ0K Pg0KPiAtLQ0KPiBLZW5pY2hpIE9nYWtpDQo+IEtEREkgQ29ycC4gfCBPcGVyYXRpb24gQXV0b21h dGlvbiBQcm9tb3Rpb24gRGVwdC4NCj4gKzgxLSgwKTgwLTU5NDUtOTEzOCB8IHd3dy5rZGRpLmNv bQ0KPg0KPg0KPg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXw0KVGVhcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNClRlYXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdGVhcw0KDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Aug 5 22:37:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8A43A0EB8; Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:37:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham 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[127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2154.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0765b80H114733; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:37:08 +0900 Received: from LTMC2154.kddi.com.mid_89073869 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by LTMC2154.kddi.com with ESMTP id 0765R6K0101543; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:27:06 +0900 X-SA-MID: 89073869 Received: from KDDI1801PC1319 ([10.211.4.86] [10.211.4.86]) by post-smtp2.kddi.com with ESMTPA; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:27:06 +0900 From: "Ogaki, Kenichi" To: "'Qin Wu'" , "'Dhruv Dhody'" Cc: =?utf-8?B?J+S4uee+vSDmnJ3kv6En?= , =?utf-8?B?J+WuruWdgiDmi5PkuZ8n?= , "'TEAS WG'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:27:06 +0900 Message-ID: <007901d66bb2$393195f0$ab94c1d0$@kddi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQD26iJcSiz0PHQzAwqVeVRjWEBeRqrpiN7Q Content-Language: ja X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 05:37:13 -0000 Hi Qin, See comments [KO2] inline, please. Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Qin Wu =20 Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:09 AM To: Ogaki, Kenichi ; 'Dhruv Dhody' = Cc: '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' ; = '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' ; 'TEAS = WG' ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org Subject: RE : [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi, Kenichi: -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ogaki, Kenichi [mailto:ke-oogaki@kddi.com] =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=886=E6=97=A5 = 8:50 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Qin Wu ; 'Dhruv Dhody' = =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' = ; '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' = ; 'TEAS WG' ; = draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Qin, Thanks for your comments. See comments [KO] inline, please. Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Qin Wu Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 10:15 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi ; 'Dhruv Dhody' = Cc: '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' ; = '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' ; 'TEAS = WG' ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi, -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Ogaki, Kenichi [mailto:ke-oogaki@kddi.com] =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5 = 8:59 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: 'Dhruv Dhody' =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: '=E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F' = ; '=E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1' = ; draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; = 'TEAS WG' =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: RE: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Dhruv, Thanks for the prompt reply. >There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. As you saw in section 6.12.3.2, the properties of custom qos-profile = include latency, and we honestly want the per-flow, classification rule, = based VN mapping mechanism. [Qin]: Kenichi, thanks for heads up. RFC8299 allow you specify site level QoS parameters and = site-network-access level QoS parameters. Each site-nework-access can = support different QoS parameters matching one or multiple traffic flows. These QoS parameters don't need to tie with specific CE-PE connectivity. = It could be used to describe end to end QoS requirements from one site = to another site or one site to multiple destination sites using = target-site leaf-list under match-flow definition. However RFC8299 doesn't describe 1 to 1 relation between target-class-id = and standard-profile, it could be N to 1 relation. [KO] What do you want to mean by? I believe that a target-class-id has = 1:1 relationship to a standard-profile or a custom qos-profile. [Qin]: target-class-id is used to identify each match flow and have one = to one relationship with custom qos profile since class-id is defined = under custom case for each class of data flow. But how target-class-id is related to standard QoS profile, there is no = association between them. We could have one golden standard QoS profile = matching multiple flow and corresponding to multiple target-class-id, Or = we could have one standard QoS profile matching only one single flow and = corresponding to a single target-class-id. [KO2] You are right. This may be just missing the example to set a = standard QoS profile to a target-class-id. Anyway, the followings are our mapping requirements: 1..* qos-profile-identifier : 1 VN or set or VN members with the same = network performance constraints 1..* match-flow in a site-network-access : 1 VNAP or 1..* class in a site-netwrok-access : 1 VNAP standard profile (such as golden, silver) can not be simply seen as = network performance constraint. QoS parameters in custom profile (e.g., = latency) should be seen as SLA contract set between customer and = operator, which is still a little different from network performance = constraints used for path computation. [KO] We understand these definitions are not identical. However, from a = (customer facing) service model level, we, operator, must choose and = define SLA and network performance constraints to be = mappable/translatable. If not so, we cannot provision the network lower = than network model level to meet the SLA. So, we need this mapping mechanism. Secondly, we can map one VPN into one VN with multiple VN members, each = VN member describe connective from one site to another destination site = and can support different QoS requirement which is similar to using = site-network-access to support different QoS requirements. Does this satisfy your use case? [KO] I see. If you mean that different VN member is set to different QoS = profile even in the same site-network-access, [Qin]: Yes, that's the option I have in mind. our latter change request under site-network-access must be considered. Also, our requirement to add the following groupings to vn-compute in = actn-vn-yang presented? by Dhruv during 108th meeting must be slightly = changed. These groupings are not added directly under vn-compute/input, = but under each vn-compute/input/vn-member-list/vn-member. uses te-types:generic-path-constraints uses te-types:generic-path-optimization [Qin]: Similar to mapping between one VPN to multiple TE tunnels, can we = hide these network constraints in the underlying. Anyway, we need to = think about how to model this and get back to you. [KO2] Thanks. We are looking forward to your feedback. >Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. Your colleague and one of co-editors of both te-service-mapping and = RFC8299, Qin Wu, is familiar with this discussion like this: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/l3sm/i5srx8YpD9296bu3VuIkHgAEi3g/ Q.12 from David Ball Thanks, Kenichi -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Dhruv Dhody Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 7:54 PM To: Ogaki, Kenichi Cc: =E5=AE=AE=E5=9D=82 =E6=8B=93=E4=B9=9F ; = =E4=B8=B9=E7=BE=BD =E6=9C=9D=E4=BF=A1 ; = draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang@ietf.org; TEAS WG = (teas@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [Teas] consideration of 1 VPN to N VNs mapping Hi Kenichi, I have not looked into it in detail but my understanding of the classes = in the custom qos-profile is that they are about the access CE-PE link = and thus would not lead to the creation of a separate VN per class. Even in the example https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8299#section-6.12.3.2 it says how the 100 Mbps on the access link is shared between the 3 classes. There is an 'end-to-end leaf' that says bandwidth reservation needs to = be done in MPLS network but I did not interpret that it requires = maintaining a separate VN, the consolidated requirements from all = classes can be mapped to a single VN and the QoS is applied at the edges = as per the L3SM YANG. Anyways, let me get this verified from L3SM experts and come back to = you. Thanks! Dhruv On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:29 PM Ogaki, Kenichi = wrote: > > Hi draft-ietf-teas-te-service-mapping-yang authors, > > Could you consider 1 to N mapping for the L3VPN to VN mapping? > > As we required some changes to actn-vn-yang before/during 108th = meeting, we would like to also discuss an additional requirement to = te-service-mapping-yang. Sorry, late for 108th meeting. > > If we correctly understand the current definition, only one VN is = allowed to be mapped to a VPN as described in section 4.1 and the model = in section 6.1.1. > However, L3SM expects to differentiate traffic handling per = qos-profile which corresponds to key network performance constraints = including bandwidth and latency, etc. as described in section 6.12.3.2 = of RFC8299. > As an operator, we believe this means that a qos-profile should be = mapped to a VN like this: > > module: ietf-l3sm-te-service-mapping > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:vpn-services > /l3vpn-svc:vpn-service: > +--rw te-service-mapping! > +--rw te-mapping > +--rw mapping* [mapping-id] > +--rw mapping-id > +--rw target-class-id? -> = /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/vpn-profiles > | = /valid-provider-identifiers/qos-profile-identifier > | /id > +--rw map-type? identityref > +--rw availability-type? identityref > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > | +--rw vn-ref? -> /vn:vn/vn-list/vn-id > +--:(te-topo) > | +--rw vn-topology-id? te-types:te-topology-id > | +--rw abstract-node? > | -> /nw:networks/network/node/node-id > +--:(te-tunnel) > +--rw te-tunnel-list* te:tunnel-ref > > > Also, in L3SM, qos-profile can be locally defined under = site-network-access and also mapped to classification rules defined = there as described in 6.12.3.2/6.12.3.1. Then, te-service-mapping-yang = should also map a VNAP to the local qos-profile even without vpn-service = level mapping like this: > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile > /l3vpn-svc:profile: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > augment /l3vpn-svc:l3vpn-svc/l3vpn-svc:sites/l3vpn-svc:site > = /l3vpn-svc:site-network-accesses/l3vpn-svc:site-network-access > = /l3vpn-svc:service/l3vpn-svc:qos/l3vpn-svc:qos-profile/l3vpn-svc:classes > /l3vpn-svc:class: > +--rw (te)? > +--:(vn) > +--rw vn-ap-ref? > -> /vn:ap/access-point-list/vn-ap/vn-ap-id > > Although we may consider the same requirement to L2SM mapping, from = our service objectives, the current definition is enough for now. > > How do you think? > > Thanks in advance, > Kenichi > > -- > Kenichi Ogaki > KDDI Corp. | Operation 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certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BMsXt6CHNz1ntYY; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "teas@ietf.org" References: <159460858327.31249.6774312592426516405@ietfa.amsl.com> <8757A5BE-BD59-4B9C-A5E9-0DC4A4D74D87@nokia.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:17:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8757A5BE-BD59-4B9C-A5E9-0DC4A4D74D87@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 15:17:05 -0000 Thank you for commenting the the TSRE question. Let me reprase my question, given the comments... Given that TSRE is strictly technology and infrastructure specific, why is it defined in this document? Whether we need it or not it seems to be outside the scope of this document. Yours, Joel On 8/6/2020 11:12 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > Thanks Joel for your comments. > > Please see inline for TSRE. > > Reza > > On 2020-07-12, 11:59 PM, "Teas on behalf of Joel Halpern" > wrote: > >     My thanks to the design team for the update to this document.  It is > >     much improved. > >     I a  unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.2.  I do > >     not know what maximum occupancy refers to.  It seems to be talking > about > >     some kind of notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic > within > >     a slice.  But I can't tell. > >     Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be > trying > >     to be informative rather than normative.  However, the last > paragraph of > >     introduces things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not > >     described in the rest of the document, and do not actually seem to > me to > >     be appropriate.  I wowuld ask that the last paragraph of section > A.1 be > >     stricken. > >     Some minor comments: > >     At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contract > >     5that describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them.  Then > >     in section 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA".  Believe > you > >     mean "form the objective portion of the SLA"  or "contribute to the > SLA" > >     or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the SLA > >     are outside of the SLOs? > >     Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (quite > >     reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable), it > >     seems that availability should itself be considered indirectly > measurable? > >     nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initial > >     list, there is no need to include a bullet in the aspects that says > >     "Other objectives could be specified".  It is true.  But has already > >     been stated above. > >     In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to say > >     that an endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, ...). > >     It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and > P2MP > >     communication.  It seems rather odd to have to consider it to be two > >     TSEs.  From later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which as a > >     particular connectivity type. > >     I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is useful? > Given > >     that many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE > >     list, it is going to be hard to tell them apart.  And as far as I can > >     tell, the TSRE is internal to the transport, and therefore outside the > >     scope of this document?  The differentiation in the diagram that > follows > >     the description does not seem to line up with the description, and > >     leaves me more confused. > > [Reza] > > As mentioned in draft, Transport slice realization endpoints (TSRE) are > allocated and > > assigned by the network controller during the realization of a >  transport slice and are technology-specific, i.e. they depend on the > > network technology used during the transport slice realization. > > Depends on the definition of the transport slice, Transport Slice > endpoints (TSE) and TSRE might be very similar but their object models > are different. > > Please also see the following draft which addresses the modeling of the > transport slice realization: > > * draft-liu-teas-transport-network-slice-yang-01 > > In summary, TRSE are assigned during the transport slice realization and > will be communicated from TSC NBI to higher system “Transport slice > Customer” and identifies how a transport slice is realized in the network. > > We will add more clarification to the draft. > >     Yours, > >     Joel > >     On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >     > > >     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > Internet-Drafts directories. > >     > > >     > > >     >          Title           : IETF Definition of Transport Slice > >     >          Authors         : Reza Rokui > >     >                            Shunsuke Homma > >     >                            Kiran Makhijani > >     >                            Luis M. Contreras > >     >                            Jeff Tantsura > >     >         Filename        : > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >     >         Pages           : 21 > >     >         Date            : 2020-07-12 > >     > > >     > Abstract: > >     >     This document describes the definition of a slice in the > transport > >     >     networks and its characteristics.  The purpose here is to bring > >     >     clarity and a common understanding of the transport slice > concept and > >     >     describe related terms and their meaning.  It explains how > transport > >     >     slices can be used in combination with end to end network > slices, or > >     >     independently. > >     > > >     > > >     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >     > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition/ > >     > > >     > There are also htmlized versions available at: > >     > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 > >     > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 > >     > > >     > A diff from the previous version is available at: > >     > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 > >     > > >     > > >     > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > >     > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >     > > >     > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >     > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >     > > >     > > >     > _______________________________________________ > >     > I-D-Announce mailing list > >     > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >     > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >     > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >     > > >     _______________________________________________ > >     Teas mailing list > >     Teas@ietf.org > >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Thu Aug 6 15:58:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 124733A0141; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:58:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irvSSLM8ABTy; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 553103A0114; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 0A466F40759; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:58:01 -0700 (PDT) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, teas@ietf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20200806225801.0A466F40759@rfc-editor.org> Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8795_on_YANG_Data_Model_for_Traffic_Enginee?= =?utf-8?q?ring_=28TE=29_Topologies?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 22:58:11 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8795 Title: YANG Data Model for Traffic Engineering (TE) Topologies Author: X. Liu, I. Bryskin, V. Beeram, T. Saad, H. Shah, O. Gonzalez de Dios Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: August 2020 Mailbox: xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com, i_bryskin@yahoo.com, vbeeram@juniper.net, tsaad@juniper.net, hshah@ciena.com, oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com Pages: 170 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-teas-yang-te-topo-22.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8795 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8795 This document defines a YANG data model for representing, retrieving, and manipulating Traffic Engineering (TE) Topologies. The model serves as a base model that other technology-specific TE topology models can augment. This document is a product of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC From nobody Thu Aug 6 23:28:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B72E33A079B; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQq_DD6NlP4s; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC0E23A076F; Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.19] (unknown [122.2.101.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DA9C32725E; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 08:28:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Loa Andersson To: rtg-ads@ietf.org, "review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org, TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG , "pce@ietf.org" , "'Yemin (Amy'" , =?UTF-8?Q?LucAndr=c3=a9_Burdet?= Message-ID: <00f526b7-ffe7-d2b6-2e41-1d0384f049d5@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:28:01 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D0A0C960971209EA9B7F5336" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] teas X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 06:28:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D0A0C960971209EA9B7F5336 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RtgDir review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 Reviewer: Loa Andersson Review Date: 2020-07-08 IETF LC End Date: date-if-known Intended Status: copy-from-I-D - Experimental (see issues list). Summary: I'm departing from the normal list, since if this would have been a standard tracks document there would have been serious issues. However, the document describes a TE experiment in a native IP network. I think is so interesting that I wouldn't object if the issues I point are not (fully) resolved. Actually I would very much like to see published and followed up by a document that reports the results from the experiment. I have the following issues with the document. It is a framework that gives the framework for an experiment. Its intended status is Experimental. While agree that the accompanying specification should be Experimental I think that in accordance with earlier document a framework should be Informational. The document describes the experiment in some detail, I would like to see more, especially evaluation criteria and bench marking. To have an overview of the test bed would be interesting. I would recommend that someone take a look at the document from a language point of view. When I read I find myself correcting and clarifying the English (this is probably not a good idea, since my English is probably worse than the current authors). There are loads of not expanded abbreviations, authors should go through the document and compare to: https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt to decide what needs to be expanded or not. I would also want to suggest that someone with experience of "Native IP networks". both specification and operation should look at the document. From the early days of MPLS I remember that one motivation to create a strong tunnel technology was that the Route Reflectors no longer scaled. I normally review document based on a word document, I have included the word-file, and it contains about everything form major issues to nits. /Loa -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 --------------D0A0C960971209EA9B7F5336 Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document; name="draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09.docx" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09.docx" UEsDBBQABgAIAAAAIQDGTi6RlQEAAFoIAAATAAgCW0NvbnRlbnRfVHlwZXNdLnhtbCCiBAIo oAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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L2ZvbnRUYWJsZS54bWxQSwECLQAUAAYACAAAACEAyEvB60gCAACICQAADwAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AABLuAAAd29yZC9wZW9wbGUueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhACSXWrx3AQAA8wIAABEAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAwLoAAGRvY1Byb3BzL2NvcmUueG1sUEsBAi0AFAAGAAgAAAAhAKihXneBAQAA 0gIAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbr0AAGRvY1Byb3BzL2FwcC54bWxQSwUGAAAAABIAEgCZBAAA JcAAAAAA --------------D0A0C960971209EA9B7F5336-- From nobody Fri Aug 7 01:41:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C763A0DB3; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7aTeYaQImH-f; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (mail-m127101.qiye.163.com [115.236.127.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B41EC3A0DAE; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP2IOH5QC (unknown [219.142.69.75]) by mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id B5D8743F6F; Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:41:01 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Loa Andersson'" , , <"review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org>, "'TEAS WG Chairs'" , "'TEAS WG'" , , "'Yemin \(Amy'" , =?UTF-8?Q?'LucAndr=C3=A9_Burdet'?= References: <00f526b7-ffe7-d2b6-2e41-1d0384f049d5@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <00f526b7-ffe7-d2b6-2e41-1d0384f049d5@pi.nu> Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:40:55 +0800 Message-ID: <004101d66c96$77b4a530$671def90$@tsinghua.org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDgzvb+NsXj7HUcCjLXaOKKHzX0FKsXjiWQ Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUpXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZS0wYHRgfHhkeQkxJVkpOQk1MQ0JNTUlLQklVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR 0UWUFZT0tIVUpKS0hKTFVKS0tZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6OAw6Dyo5HD8ZH0k*NUwDVk4t NDgKFC5VSlVKTkJNTENCTU1JTk5OVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxOWVdZCAFZQU5JT083Bg++ X-HM-Tid: 0a73c814a1349865kuuub5d8743f6f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] teas X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 08:41:11 -0000 Hi, Loa: Thanks for your review.=20 We will update the draft in next week to reflect your comments. The = detail responses will also be provided later. Comments from other experts are also welcome.=20 Thanks in advance. Best Regards Aijun Wang China Telecom -----Original Message----- From: teas-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Loa Andersson Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 2:28 PM To: rtg-ads@ietf.org; "review: = ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org; TEAS WG Chairs = ; TEAS WG ; pce@ietf.org; 'Yemin = (Amy' ; LucAndr=C3=A9 Burdet = Subject: [Teas] teas RtgDir review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 Hello, I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see = =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. Document: draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 Reviewer: Loa Andersson Review Date: 2020-07-08 IETF LC End Date: date-if-known Intended Status: copy-from-I-D - Experimental (see issues list). Summary: I'm departing from the normal list, since if this would have been a = standard tracks document there would have been serious issues. However, the document describes a TE experiment in a native IP network. I think is so interesting that I wouldn't object if the issues I point = are not (fully) resolved. Actually I would very much like to see = published and followed up by a document that reports the results from = the experiment. I have the following issues with the document. It is a framework that gives the framework for an experiment. Its = intended status is Experimental. While agree that the accompanying = specification should be Experimental I think that in accordance with = earlier document a framework should be Informational. The document describes the experiment in some detail, I would like to = see more, especially evaluation criteria and bench marking. To have an = overview of the test bed would be interesting. I would recommend that someone take a look at the document from a = language point of view. When I read I find myself correcting and = clarifying the English (this is probably not a good idea, since my = English is probably worse than the current authors). There are loads of not expanded abbreviations, authors should go through = the document and compare to: https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt to decide what needs to be expanded or not. I would also want to suggest that someone with experience of "Native IP = networks". both specification and operation should look at the document. = >From the early days of MPLS I remember that one motivation to create a = strong tunnel technology was that the Route Reflectors no longer scaled. I normally review document based on a word document, I have included the = word-file, and it contains about everything form major issues to nits. /Loa --=20 Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Mon Aug 10 01:56:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACD43A0EA4; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:56:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.13.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <159704980187.2316.5608685212078977655@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 01:56:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-10.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:56:42 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : PCE in Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Boris Khasanov Quintin Zhao Huaimo Chen Filename : draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-10.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2020-08-10 Abstract: This document defines the architecture for traffic engineering within native IP network, using multiple BGP sessions strategy and PCE -based central control mechanism. It uses the Central Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) procedures described in this document, and the Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) extension specified in draft ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: netmod on behalf of Italo Busi =0A= Sent: 04 August 2020 08:49=0A= =0A= We have found some issues with RPC XPaths when developing the YANG code for= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation=0A= =0A= As discussed during the TEAS WG session in IETF 108, this issue has been ra= ised on pyang github: https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/662=0A= =0A= It was also suggested to check with Netmod WG what should be the correct be= havior according to RFC7950.=0A= =0A= =0A= Italo=0A= =0A= While waiting for those with greater understanding than I to come up with t= he answer about whether or not 'input' should or should not be present in t= he XPath, I had another look at RFC7950 and decided that I could argue it e= ither way; it comes down to schema tree versus data tree, both of which fig= ure in the definition of leafref, but this is just my speculation,=0A= =0A= Tom Petch.=0A= =0A= The following code is accepted by pyang 1.75 but not by pyang 2.1:=0A= =0A= type leafref {=0A= path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/te:input/"=0A= + "te:path-compute-info/"=0A= + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name";=0A= }=0A= =0A= The following code instead is accepted by pyang 2.1 but not by pyang 1.7.5:= =0A= =0A= type leafref {=0A= path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/"=0A= + "te:path-compute-info/"=0A= + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name";=0A= }=0A= =0A= Moreover the following when statement, which is quite useful to constraint = which information is provided by the RPC output based on some attributes in= the RPC input, is accepted by pyang 1.7.5 but not accepted by pyang 2.1;= =0A= =0A= augment "/te:tunnels-actions/te:output" {=0A= description=0A= "Augment Tunnels Action RPC input with path delete result";=0A= =0A= container path-computed-delete-result {=0A= when "derived-from-or-self(../../te:input/te:action-info/"=0A= + "te:action, 'tunnel-action-path-compute-delete')";=0A= description "Path Delete RPC output";=0A= leaf-list path-compute-transaction-id {=0A= type string;=0A= description=0A= "The list of the transaction-id values of the=0A= transient states that have been successfully deleted";=0A= }=0A= } // container path-computed-delete-result=0A= } // path-delete rpc output=0A= =0A= =0A= Could you please help us to understand what is the correct behavior?=0A= =0A= In case the correct behavior is the one of pyang 2.1, our understanding is = that it would not be possible to provide in YANG when constraints for the d= ata nodes in the RPC output depending on specific values of the data nodes = used in the RPC input. Therefore these constraints should be specified as b= ehavior and implemented in the back-end.=0A= =0A= Is our understanding correct?=0A= =0A= Thanks for your help=0A= =0A= Sergio and Italo (on behalf of co-authors/contributors)=0A= =0A= Italo Busi=0A= Principal Optical Transport Network Research Engineer=0A= =0A= [cid:image001.jpg@01D5AC11.9575BB40]=0A= ____________________________________________________________________=0A= =0A= Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l.=0A= Address: Centro Direzionale Milano 2, Palazzo Verrocchio, 20090 Segrate (MI= )=0A= Tel: +39 345 4721946 - Mobile: Italo.busi@huawei.com=0A= =0A= ___________________________________________________________________________= _______=0A= Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is a company registered in Italy at the C= ompany Registration Office of Milan, with registered number 04501190963 and= equity capital =803,000,000 fully paid up, whose registered office is in M= ilan, Via Lorenteggio 240, Tower A, 20147 Milan, Italy. Huawei Technologies= Italia S.r.l. is 100% owned by Huawei Technologies Cooperatief U.A.=0A= CONAI Reg. No. cc 12639454 - A.E.E. Registry No. IT10010000006521 - Batteri= es and Accumulators Registry No. IT12050P00002839.=0A= ___________________________________________________________________________= _____________________________________________=0A= This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWE= I, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed = above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, b= ut not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or disseminat= ion) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you = receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email im= mediately and delete it! Thank you.=0A= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------=0A= PRIVACY NOTICE: Pursuant to Art. 13 of the General Data Protection Regulati= on 2016/679 (GDPR), Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. informs you that the = personal data contained in this email will be collected and treated for the= acquisition of information preliminary to the conclusion of contracts, for= the definition of the contractual relationship, as well as for the fulfill= ment of legal requirements related to civil, tax and accounting law or any = other legal obligation to which Huawei may be subject. Personal data will n= ot be subject to disclosure and spread unless otherwise required by law. Hu= awei will take appropriate security measures to protect personal data again= st loss, misuse disclosure or destruction of the information. Personal Data= held may be transferred to countries outside the European Union, however H= uawei Italia has put in place appropriate safeguards for the transfer of pe= rsonal data to third countries by adopting the standard data protection cla= uses of the EU Commission. Personal Data are kept for a period necessary fo= r the fulfillment of contract obligations unless otherwise required by law.= You can exercise your rights under Art. 15 and following of the GDPR (i.e.= right of access, rectification, erasure, restriction, portability, object)= by contacting Huawei at this email address: dataprotection@huawei.com or through the following channel: www.huawei.= com/en/personal-data-request. You have also the right to lodge a complaint with the competent supervis= ory authorities. If you need any further information or have any queries on= how Huawei process your personal data, please send an email to our Data Pr= otection Officer at dpo@huawei.com.The Data Controll= er is Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. with registered office in Milan, Vi= a Lorenteggio 240 Tower A, 20147.=0A= =0A= =0A= --_002_AM7PR07MB6248D7BF222B8AA480F20089A0440AM7PR07MB6248eurp_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="image001.jpg" Content-Description: image001.jpg Content-Disposition: inline; filename="image001.jpg"; size=9598; creation-date="Tue, 04 Aug 2020 07:49:34 GMT"; modification-date="Tue, 04 Aug 2020 07:49:34 GMT" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/4QBaRXhpZgAATU0AKgAAAAgABQMBAAUAAAABAAAASgMDAAEA AAABAAAAAFEQAAEAAAABAQAAAFERAAQAAAABAAASdFESAAQAAAABAAASdAAAAAAAAYagAACxj//b AEMAAgEBAgEBAgICAgICAgIDBQMDAwMDBgQEAwUHBgcHBwYHBwgJCwkICAoIBwcKDQoKCwwMDAwH CQ4PDQwOCwwMDP/bAEMBAgICAwMDBgMDBgwIBwgMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwM 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o0RNV2KoVpCH; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 02:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (mail-m127101.qiye.163.com [115.236.127.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CAA63A1426; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 02:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP2IOH5QC (unknown [219.142.69.75]) by mail-m127101.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 1FE97438FE; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:07:13 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Loa Andersson'" , , <"review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org>, "'TEAS WG Chairs'" , "'TEAS WG'" , , "'Yemin \(Amy'" , =?utf-8?Q?'LucAndr=C3=A9_Burdet'?= References: <00f526b7-ffe7-d2b6-2e41-1d0384f049d5@pi.nu> In-Reply-To: <00f526b7-ffe7-d2b6-2e41-1d0384f049d5@pi.nu> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:07:10 +0800 Message-ID: <002001d66ef5$a1cb81c0$e5628540$@tsinghua.org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01D66F38.AFF29250" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQDgzvb+NsXj7HUcCjLXaOKKHzX0FKscGLaw Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUpXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLWVdZKFlBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1 kPCRoVCBIfWUFZHk8aSx9PHx4ZHkwaVkpOQkxLTktPSEhNSEJVEwETFhoSFyQUDg9ZV1kWGg8SFR 0UWUFZT0tIVUpKS0hKTFVKS0tZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PhQ6ESo*Hj8dA04JFg04CzAW FwwaCypVSlVKTkJMS05LT0hPSE9NVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxOWVdZCAFZQUJJQkxPNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a73d79faf919865kuuu1fe97438fe Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] [Pce] teas X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:07:28 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01D66F38.AFF29250 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0022_01D66F38.AFF29250" ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01D66F38.AFF29250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Loa: =20 Thanks for your review. We have updated the draft accordingly. Detail responses are inline below. =20 I also includes the word responses for your reference. =20 =20 Best Regards =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 -----Original Message----- From: pce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Loa Andersson Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 2:28 PM To: rtg-ads@ietf.org; "review: = ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org; TEAS WG Chairs = ; TEAS WG ; pce@ietf.org; 'Yemin = (Amy' ; LucAndr=C3=A9 Burdet = Subject: [Pce] teas =20 =20 RtgDir review: ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 =20 Hello, =20 I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft. = The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related = drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and = sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide = assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing = Directorate, please see =E2=80=8B = = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir =20 Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it = would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF = Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through = discussion or by updating the draft. =20 Document: draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09 Reviewer: Loa Andersson Review Date: 2020-07-08 IETF LC End Date: date-if-known Intended Status: copy-from-I-D - Experimental (see issues list). =20 Summary: =20 =20 I'm departing from the normal list, since if this would have been a = standard tracks document there would have been serious issues. =20 However, the document describes a TE experiment in a native IP network. I think is so interesting that I wouldn't object if the issues I point = are not (fully) resolved. Actually I would very much like to see = published and followed up by a document that reports the results from = the experiment. =20 I have the following issues with the document. =20 It is a framework that gives the framework for an experiment. Its = intended status is Experimental. While agree that the accompanying = specification should be Experimental I think that in accordance with = earlier document a framework should be Informational. [WAJ] Actually, this draft define the architecture for traffic = engineering within Native IP network(CCDR). Should we change the phrase = from =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Carchitecture=E2=80=9D, and = keep the document in =E2=80=9CExperimental=E2=80=9D track? We have also discussed the possible status of this draft, at = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/YIMuXe1rM46aewPgfzMJrP-hPUA/ =20 The document describes the experiment in some detail, I would like to = see more, especially evaluation criteria and bench marking. To have an = overview of the test bed would be interesting. [WAJ] We have some simulation results, as described in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8735. Experiment in real filed will have = similar results because the effect of such solution depends mainly on = the performance of PCE. More data can be obtained after the PCEP = extension = draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip= -05) been standardized.=20 This is also the reason that we put this document in = =E2=80=9CExperimental=E2=80=9D Status now.=20 =20 I would recommend that someone take a look at the document from a = language point of view. When I read I find myself correcting and = clarifying the English (this is probably not a good idea, since my = English is probably worse than the current authors). =20 There are loads of not expanded abbreviations, authors should go through = the document and compare to: = https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt to decide what needs to be expanded or not. =20 I would also want to suggest that someone with experience of "Native IP = networks". both specification and operation should look at the document. = >From the early days of MPLS I remember that one motivation to create a = strong tunnel technology was that the Route Reflectors no longer scaled. [WAJ] The solution descried in this document does not decrease the = scalability of RR. The forwarding plan will not pass RR. =20 I normally review document based on a word document, I have included the = word-file, and it contains about everything form major issues to nits. =20 =20 /Loa =20 =20 --=20 =20 Loa Andersson email: = loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert = loa.pi.nu@gmail.com Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 ------=_NextPart_001_0022_01D66F38.AFF29250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Loa:

 

Thanks for your review. We have = updated the draft accordingly.

Detail responses are inline = below.

 

I also includes the word responses for your = reference.

 

 

Best Regards

 

Aijun = Wang

China Telecom

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: pce-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:pce-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Loa Andersson
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 2:28 = PM
To: rtg-ads@ietf.org; "review: = ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-.all"@ietf.org; TEAS WG Chairs = <teas-chairs@ietf.org>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; = pce@ietf.org; 'Yemin (Amy' <amy.yemin@huawei.com>; = LucAndr=C3=A9 Burdet <laburdet.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: [Pce] = teas

 

 

RtgDir review: = ddraft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09

 

Hello,

 

I have been selected as the = Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.

The Routing Directorate seeks to = review all routing or routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF = last call and IESG review, and sometimes on special request. The purpose = of the review is to provide assistance to the Routing ADs. For more = information about the Routing Directorate, please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.or= g/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir

 

Although these comments are = primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you = could consider them along with any other IETF Last Call comments that = you receive, and strive to resolve them through discussion or by = updating the draft.

 

Document: = draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-09

Reviewer: Loa = Andersson

Review Date: 2020-07-08

IETF LC End Date: = date-if-known

Intended Status: copy-from-I-D - Experimental (see issues = list).

 

Summary:

 

 

I'm departing from the normal list, since if this would = have been a standard tracks document there would have been serious = issues.

 

However, the document describes a TE experiment in a native = IP network.

I think is so interesting that I wouldn't object if the = issues I point are not (fully) resolved. Actually I would very much like = to see published and followed up by a document that reports the results = from the experiment.

 

I have the following issues with the = document.

 

It is a framework that gives the framework for an = experiment. Its intended status is Experimental. While agree that the = accompanying specification should be Experimental I think that in = accordance with earlier document a framework should be = Informational.

[WAJ] Actually, this draft define the = architecture for traffic engineering within Native IP network(CCDR). = Should we change the phrase from =E2=80=9Cframework=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Carchitecture=E2=80=9D, and keep the document in = =E2=80=9CExperimental=E2=80=9D track?

We = have also discussed the possible status of this draft, at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/YIMuXe1rM46aewPgfzMJrP= -hPUA/

 

The document describes the experiment in some detail, I = would like to see more, especially evaluation criteria and bench = marking. To have an overview of the test bed would be = interesting.

[WAJ] We have some simulation = results, as described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/= rfc8735. Experiment in real filed = will have similar results because the effect of such solution depends = mainly on the performance of PCE. More data can be obtained after the = PCEP extension draft(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-i= p-05) been standardized. =

This is also the reason that we put = this document in =E2=80=9CExperimental=E2=80=9D Status now.

 

I would recommend that someone = take a look at the document from a language point of view. When I read I = find myself correcting and clarifying the English (this is probably not = a good idea, since my English is probably worse than the current = authors).

 

There are loads of not expanded abbreviations, authors = should go through the document and compare to:

https://www.rfc-editor.or= g/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt

to decide what needs to be = expanded or not.

 

I would also want to suggest that someone with experience = of "Native IP networks". both specification and operation = should look at the document. From the early days of MPLS I remember that = one motivation to create a strong tunnel technology was that the Route = Reflectors no longer scaled.

[WAJ] The solution descried in this document does = not decrease the scalability of RR. The forwarding plan will not pass = RR.

 

I normally review document based = on a word document, I have included the word-file, and it contains about = everything form major issues to nits.

 

 

/Loa

 

 

--

 

Loa = Andersson=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = email: loa@pi.nu=

Senior MPLS = Expert=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 loa.pi.nu@gmail.com

Bronze Dragon = Consulting=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 phone: +46 739 81 21 = 64

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 48d4db36-a485-47fb-72cc-08d83d112f1a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Aug 2020 09:38:48.5661 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /t517VzRpON06L38NCD8+KXOLoK8s/DfVNgakkyvSJGm4uEKhCIb3KC4j05NXojAu3QD9C3NhanNk22YzFVGUw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR07MB6627 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Issue with path statements in RPC X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:39:06 -0000 From: netmod on behalf of Martin Bj=F6rklund =0A= Sent: 10 August 2020 10:24=0A= =0A= Italo Busi wrote:=0A= > We have found some issues with RPC XPaths when developing the YANG=0A= > code for=0A= > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation=0A= >=0A= > As discussed during the TEAS WG session in IETF 108, this issue has=0A= > been raised on pyang github:=0A= > https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/662=0A= >=0A= > It was also suggested to check with Netmod WG what should be the=0A= > correct behavior according to RFC7950.=0A= >=0A= > The following code is accepted by pyang 1.75 but not by pyang 2.1:=0A= >=0A= > type leafref {=0A= > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/te:input/"=0A= > + "te:path-compute-info/"=0A= > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name";=0A= > }=0A= >=0A= > The following code instead is accepted by pyang 2.1 but not by pyang=0A= > 1.7.5:=0A= >=0A= > type leafref {=0A= > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/"=0A= > + "te:path-compute-info/"=0A= > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name";=0A= > }=0A= =0A= The leafref path is an XPath expression, which operates on the data=0A= tree (instance data). The "input" node is not present in the instance=0A= data / data tree. See section 6.4.1 of RFC 7950.=0A= =0A= So the latter path (as verfied by pyang 2.1) is correct.=0A= =0A= =0A= Martin,=0A= =0A= Thank you for the clarifications. Just looking at the first issue, what ga= ve me pause was section 9.9; the path statement is used to identify the ref= erred leaf in the schema tree and 'input' is in the schema tree. But I can= see that 6.4.1 overrides that implication.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= > Moreover the following when statement, which is quite useful to=0A= > constraint which information is provided by the RPC output based on=0A= > some attributes in the RPC input, is accepted by pyang 1.7.5 but not=0A= > accepted by pyang 2.1;=0A= >=0A= > augment "/te:tunnels-actions/te:output" {=0A= > description=0A= > "Augment Tunnels Action RPC input with path delete result";=0A= >=0A= > container path-computed-delete-result {=0A= > when "derived-from-or-self(../../te:input/te:action-info/"=0A= > + "te:action, 'tunnel-action-path-compute-delete')";=0A= > description "Path Delete RPC output";=0A= > leaf-list path-compute-transaction-id {=0A= > type string;=0A= > description=0A= > "The list of the transaction-id values of the=0A= > transient states that have been successfully deleted";=0A= > }=0A= > } // container path-computed-delete-result=0A= > } // path-delete rpc output=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > Could you please help us to understand what is the correct behavior?=0A= >=0A= > In case the correct behavior is the one of pyang 2.1, our=0A= > understanding is that it would not be possible to provide in YANG when=0A= > constraints for the data nodes in the RPC output depending on specific=0A= > values of the data nodes used in the RPC input. Therefore these=0A= > constraints should be specified as behavior and implemented in the=0A= > back-end.=0A= >=0A= > Is our understanding correct?=0A= =0A= Yes, this is correct. It is not possible to refer to the=0A= corresponding "input" instance data in the XPath expressions for the=0A= "output".=0A= =0A= =0A= /martin=0A= =0A= =0A= >=0A= > Thanks for your help=0A= >=0A= > Sergio and Italo (on behalf of co-authors/contributors)=0A= >=0A= > Italo Busi=0A= > Principal Optical Transport Network Research Engineer=0A= >=0A= > [cid:image001.jpg@01D5AC11.9575BB40]=0A= > ____________________________________________________________________=0A= >=0A= > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l.=0A= > Address: Centro Direzionale Milano 2, Palazzo Verrocchio, 20090=0A= > Segrate (MI)=0A= > Tel: +39 345 4721946 - Mobile:=0A= > Italo.busi@huawei.com=0A= >=0A= > _________________________________________________________________________= _________=0A= > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is a company registered in Italy at=0A= > the Company Registration Office of Milan, with registered number=0A= > 04501190963 and equity capital =803,000,000 fully paid up, whose=0A= > registered office is in Milan, Via Lorenteggio 240, Tower A, 20147=0A= > Milan, Italy. Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is 100% owned by=0A= > Huawei Technologies Cooperatief U.A.=0A= > CONAI Reg. No. cc 12639454 - A.E.E. Registry No. IT10010000006521 -=0A= > Batteries and Accumulators Registry No. IT12050P00002839.=0A= > _________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________=0A= > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from=0A= > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address=0A= > is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any=0A= > way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure,=0A= > reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended=0A= > recipient(s) is prohibited. 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If you need any further information or have=0A= > any queries on how Huawei process your personal data, please send an=0A= > email to our Data Protection Officer at=0A= > dpo@huawei.com.The Data Controller is Huawei=0A= > Technologies Italia S.r.l. with registered office in Milan, Via=0A= > Lorenteggio 240 Tower A, 20147.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= _______________________________________________=0A= netmod mailing list=0A= netmod@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A= From nobody Mon Aug 10 03:01:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA463A0C3D; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 03:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUoWOmIwNzHw; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 03:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21FE73A0C0C; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 03:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 71FC0F81E6A1986EDE19; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:01:16 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.100) by lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:01:15 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:01:13 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:01:13 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang" CC: "idr@ietf. org" , "teas@ietf.org" , "'licong@chinatelecom.cn'" , "'xiechf@chinatelecom.cn'" , Lizhenbin Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-zzhang-teas-network-slicing-with-flex-te \\RE: draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt Thread-Index: AdZu/N0+WXjTmM9lQlavMPIhKF+47Q== Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:01:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.143] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Comments on draft-zzhang-teas-network-slicing-with-flex-te \\RE: draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:01:23 -0000 Hi Jeff,=20 Thanks for your information about the Flexible TE draft.=20 After reading it, my understanding is only the edge nodes are allowed perfo= rm per-algo SPF, and for consistent forwarding, only adj-SIDs can be used f= or the SR path.=20 I have a few questions and comments about this document, and I'd appreciate= your reply and clarification on them, thanks. 1. Are the link admin-groups configured on links in the network? Or they ar= e provisioned on the controller first, then distributed only to the edge no= des? 2. With the proposed mechanism, will IGP still be used for the distribution= of Flex-Algo definition, the link admin-group information and the algo-spe= cific SIDs? And are per-algo SIDs still needed?=20 3. After an edge node performs per-algo SPF and builds an SR-TE path, does = it generate a SR policy locally for the SR-TE path?=20 4. It proposes to use BGP-LS with RT for targeted distribution of FAD and l= ink-state information from controller, as discussed in IDR meeting, some re= asons about why BGP-LS or BGP is suitable for this would be needed.=20 5. In the IGP extensions, a router originates LSAs/LSPs with other node's l= ink-state information, this is different from the traditional IGP mechanism= . Also with IGP flooding, there is no control of the target nodes to receiv= e and keep such information. Are these IGP extensions comply to the concept= of the per-algo SPF on edge nodes or selected nodes? =20 Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2020 3:24 AM > To: 'licong@chinatelecom.cn' ; > 'xiechf@chinatelecom.cn' ; Dongjie (Jimmy) > ; Lizhenbin > Cc: idr@ietf. org ; teas@ietf.org > Subject: RE: draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt >=20 > Oops the draft that I was referring to at the end of this email should be > draft-zzhang-teas-network-slicing-with-flex-te. >=20 > Jeffrey >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas On Behalf Of Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 11:11 AM > To: 'licong@chinatelecom.cn' ; > 'xiechf@chinatelecom.cn' ; 'Dongjie (Jimmy)' > ; 'lizhenbin@huawei.com' > > Cc: idr@ietf. org ; teas@ietf.org > Subject: [Teas] draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt >=20 > [External Email. Be cautious of content] >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > About the following: >=20 > 4. Scalability Considerations >=20 > The mechanism described in this document requires that each VTN has > an independent topology, and for inter-domain VTNs, the MT-ID used > in > each involved domain is consistent. While this brings the benefits > of simplicity, it also has some limitations. For example, it means > that even if multiple VTNs may have the same topology attribute, they > would still need to be identified using different MT-IDs in the > control plane. This requires that for each VTN, independent path > computation would be executed. The number of VTNs supported in a > network may be dependent on the number of topologies supported, > which > is related to the control plane computation overhead. >=20 > As I mentioned after Cong's presentation in IDR, Flexible TE (Flexible > Algorithm + SR-TE + Targeted Distribution) addresses the above scaling > concerns. I also have some further thoughts on advertising other > attributes, to be published in later revisions of my > draft-zzhang-teas-flexible-te draft. >=20 > Would like to hear your thoughts. >=20 > Thanks. > Jeffrey >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas_ > _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!U5ARee2LojrOjDlBuFV-m1hPriQ0KLGu4zNhkpLmgjTnuC0y > 9n3kUr13t4g7CEZN$ From nobody Mon Aug 10 04:59:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832D63A1515 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 04:59:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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0fddc47e-ec95-4690-6856-08d83d24cb14 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Aug 2020 11:59:10.6571 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0xPZV6zowu6/Trg12C66eW5dCRUvE2BW6xyNxz5qHmab2wNkY2CbjpYHtPtDEpE7g0MeOdGRjeVOMQs79+8EFg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR08MB5738 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:59:17 -0000 --_000_C12F4B2660EB4043BBCF9DF27754B312nokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrkeekgdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffkvffuhfgjfhfogggtgfesthhqre dtredtleenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhtihhnuceujhpnrhhklhhunhguuceomhgsjhdoihgv thhfseegieeikedrshgvqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeehgfelheffgedtfeffleffud egffduueeuveejjeduhfeltdevvdfgtdfffeejvdenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdho rhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdphhhurgifvghirdgtohhmnecukfhppeduheekrdduje egrdegrdeggeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhr ohhmpehmsghjodhivghtfhesgeeiieekrdhsvg X-ME-Proxy: Received: from localhost (unknown [158.174.4.44]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1207B30600A3; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 05:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:24:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20200810.112423.1011687310446809904.id@4668.se> To: Italo.Busi@huawei.com Cc: netmod@ietf.org, teas@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: <9c365f0d89ae4f9c9054eed5c4730d59@huawei.com> References: <9c365f0d89ae4f9c9054eed5c4730d59@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:55:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Issue with path statements in RPC X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:24:31 -0000 Italo Busi wrote: > We have found some issues with RPC XPaths when developing the YANG > code for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation > = > As discussed during the TEAS WG session in IETF 108, this issue has > been raised on pyang github: > https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/662 > = > It was also suggested to check with Netmod WG what should be the > correct behavior according to RFC7950. > = > The following code is accepted by pyang 1.75 but not by pyang 2.1: > = > type leafref { > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/te:input/" > + "te:path-compute-info/" > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name"; > } > = > The following code instead is accepted by pyang 2.1 but not by pyang > 1.7.5: > = > type leafref { > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/" > + "te:path-compute-info/" > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name"; > } The leafref path is an XPath expression, which operates on the data tree (instance data). The "input" node is not present in the instance data / data tree. See section 6.4.1 of RFC 7950. So the latter path (as verfied by pyang 2.1) is correct. > Moreover the following when statement, which is quite useful to > constraint which information is provided by the RPC output based on > some attributes in the RPC input, is accepted by pyang 1.7.5 but not > accepted by pyang 2.1; > = > augment "/te:tunnels-actions/te:output" { > description > "Augment Tunnels Action RPC input with path delete result"; > = > container path-computed-delete-result { > when "derived-from-or-self(../../te:input/te:action-info/" > + "te:action, 'tunnel-action-path-compute-delete')"; > description "Path Delete RPC output"; > leaf-list path-compute-transaction-id { > type string; > description > "The list of the transaction-id values of the > transient states that have been successfully deleted"; > } > } // container path-computed-delete-result > } // path-delete rpc output > = > = > Could you please help us to understand what is the correct behavior? > = > In case the correct behavior is the one of pyang 2.1, our > understanding is that it would not be possible to provide in YANG whe= n > constraints for the data nodes in the RPC output depending on specifi= c > values of the data nodes used in the RPC input. Therefore these > constraints should be specified as behavior and implemented in the > back-end. > = > Is our understanding correct? Yes, this is correct. It is not possible to refer to the corresponding "input" instance data in the XPath expressions for the "output". /martin > = > Thanks for your help > = > Sergio and Italo (on behalf of co-authors/contributors) > = > Italo Busi > Principal Optical Transport Network Research Engineer > = > [cid:image001.jpg@01D5AC11.9575BB40] > ____________________________________________________________________ > = > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. > Address: Centro Direzionale Milano 2, Palazzo Verrocchio, 20090 > Segrate (MI) > Tel: +39 345 4721946 - Mobile: > Italo.busi@huawei.com > = > _____________________________________________________________________= _____________ > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is a company registered in Italy at= > the Company Registration Office of Milan, with registered number > 04501190963 and equity capital =A43,000,000 fully paid up, whose > registered office is in Milan, Via Lorenteggio 240, Tower A, 20147 > Milan, Italy. 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Mon, 10 Aug 2020 05:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:43:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20200810.114324.1967866904848316834.id@4668.se> To: ietfc@btconnect.com Cc: Italo.Busi@huawei.com, teas@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rklund?= In-Reply-To: References: <9c365f0d89ae4f9c9054eed5c4730d59@huawei.com> <20200810.112423.1011687310446809904.id@4668.se> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 26.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:55:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Teas] [netmod] Issue with path statements in RPC X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:43:30 -0000 tom petch wrote: > From: netmod on behalf of Martin Bj=F6rklun= d > Sent: 10 August 2020 10:24 > = > Italo Busi wrote: > > We have found some issues with RPC XPaths when developing the YANG > > code for > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-yang-path-computation > > > > As discussed during the TEAS WG session in IETF 108, this issue has= > > been raised on pyang github: > > https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/662 > > > > It was also suggested to check with Netmod WG what should be the > > correct behavior according to RFC7950. > > > > The following code is accepted by pyang 1.75 but not by pyang 2.1: > > > > type leafref { > > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/te:input/" > > + "te:path-compute-info/" > > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name"; > > } > > > > The following code instead is accepted by pyang 2.1 but not by pyan= g > > 1.7.5: > > > > type leafref { > > path "/te:tunnels-path-compute/" > > + "te:path-compute-info/" > > + "te-pc:tunnel-attributes/te-pc:tunnel-name"; > > } > = > The leafref path is an XPath expression, which operates on the data > tree (instance data). The "input" node is not present in the instanc= e > data / data tree. See section 6.4.1 of RFC 7950. > = > So the latter path (as verfied by pyang 2.1) is correct. > = > > Martin, > = > Thank you for the clarifications. Just looking at the first issue, w= hat gave me pause was section 9.9; the path statement is used to identi= fy the referred leaf in the schema tree and 'input' is in the schema tr= ee. But I can see that 6.4.1 overrides that implication. Hmm, yes that text can certainly be improved. 9.9.2 however refers to 6.4.1. /martin > = > Tom Petch > = > = > = > > Moreover the following when statement, which is quite useful to > > constraint which information is provided by the RPC output based on= > > some attributes in the RPC input, is accepted by pyang 1.7.5 but no= t > > accepted by pyang 2.1; > > > > augment "/te:tunnels-actions/te:output" { > > description > > "Augment Tunnels Action RPC input with path delete result"; > > > > container path-computed-delete-result { > > when "derived-from-or-self(../../te:input/te:action-info/" > > + "te:action, 'tunnel-action-path-compute-delete')"; > > description "Path Delete RPC output"; > > leaf-list path-compute-transaction-id { > > type string; > > description > > "The list of the transaction-id values of the > > transient states that have been successfully deleted"; > > } > > } // container path-computed-delete-result > > } // path-delete rpc output > > > > > > Could you please help us to understand what is the correct behavior= ? > > > > In case the correct behavior is the one of pyang 2.1, our > > understanding is that it would not be possible to provide in YANG w= hen > > constraints for the data nodes in the RPC output depending on speci= fic > > values of the data nodes used in the RPC input. Therefore these > > constraints should be specified as behavior and implemented in the > > back-end. > > > > Is our understanding correct? > = > Yes, this is correct. It is not possible to refer to the > corresponding "input" instance data in the XPath expressions for the > "output". > = > = > /martin > = > = > > > > Thanks for your help > > > > Sergio and Italo (on behalf of co-authors/contributors) > > > > Italo Busi > > Principal Optical Transport Network Research Engineer > > > > [cid:image001.jpg@01D5AC11.9575BB40] > > ___________________________________________________________________= _ > > > > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. > > Address: Centro Direzionale Milano 2, Palazzo Verrocchio, 20090 > > Segrate (MI) > > Tel: +39 345 4721946 - Mobile: > > Italo.busi@huawei.com > > > > ___________________________________________________________________= _______________ > > Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is a company registered in Italy = at > > the Company Registration Office of Milan, with registered number > > 04501190963 and equity capital =A43,000,000 fully paid up, whose > > registered office is in Milan, Via Lorenteggio 240, Tower A, 20147 > > Milan, Italy. Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. is 100% owned by > > Huawei Technologies Cooperatief U.A. > > CONAI Reg. No. cc 12639454 - A.E.E. Registry No. IT10010000006521 -= > > Batteries and Accumulators Registry No. IT12050P00002839. > > ___________________________________________________________________= _____________________________________________________ > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information fr= om > > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose addre= ss > > is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any= > > way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, > > reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended > > recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, > > please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete i= t! > > Thank you. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------ > > PRIVACY NOTICE: Pursuant to Art. 13 of the General Data Protection > > Regulation 2016/679 (GDPR), Huawei Technologies Italia S.r.l. infor= ms > > you that the personal data contained in this email will be collecte= d > > and treated for the acquisition of information preliminary to the > > conclusion of contracts, for the definition of the contractual > > relationship, as well as for the fulfillment of legal requirements > > related to civil, tax and accounting law or any other legal obligat= ion > > to which Huawei may be subject. Personal data will not be subject t= o > > disclosure and spread unless otherwise required by law. Huawei will= > > take appropriate security measures to protect personal data against= > > loss, misuse disclosure or destruction of the information. Personal= > > Data held may be transferred to countries outside the European Unio= n, > > however Huawei Italia has put in place appropriate safeguards for t= he > > transfer of personal data to third countries by adopting the standa= rd > > data protection clauses of the EU Commission. Personal Data are kep= t > > for a period necessary for the fulfillment of contract obligations > > unless otherwise required by law. You can exercise your rights unde= r > > Art. 15 and following of the GDPR (i.e. right of access, > > rectification, erasure, restriction, portability, object) by > > contacting Huawei at this email address: > > dataprotection@huawei.com or thro= ugh > > the following channel: > > www.huawei.com/en/personal-data-request. You > > have also the right to lodge a complaint with the competent > > supervisory authorities. If you need any further information or hav= e > > any queries on how Huawei process your personal data, please send a= n > > email to our Data Protection Officer at > > dpo@huawei.com.The Data Controller is Huawei= > > Technologies Italia S.r.l. with registered office in Milan, Via > > Lorenteggio 240 Tower A, 20147. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Aug 10 17:51:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7854A3A0E6D; Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR05MB5981.namprd05.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f48c831c-382b-46bf-af55-08d83d909cee X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Aug 2020 00:50:58.8049 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 7FpFGrv5iUuuMQuVFyqAnxcjqyNk0ol/ajfr8n+VuLKwfezjDXle4pRDgD78I0sNNC3g0fb/V6H3/OiLRAMedQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR05MB6205 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-08-10_22:2020-08-06, 2020-08-10 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 suspectscore=1 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008110002 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt (and draft-zzhang-teas-network-slicing-with-flex-te) X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:51:21 -0000 Hi Jie, Please see zzh> below. Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Dongjie (Jimmy) =20 Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 4:50 AM To: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang ; licong@chinatelecom.cn; x= iechf@chinatelecom.cn; Lizhenbin Subject: RE: draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt [External Email. Be cautious of content] Hi Jeffrey, Thanks for your suggestion and information about the Flexible TE draft. I reviewed your draft, my reading is essentially it only allow the edge nod= es to perform per-algo SPF, and only adj-SIDs are used for the SR path. I h= ave a few questions about this document. Could you please help to clarify t= hem? 1. Are the link admin-groups configured on each link in the network? Or the= y are provisioned on the controller, then distributed only to the edge node= s? Zzh> They're only configured on the controller, and then either distributed= only to relevant edge nodes (if we don't want all the nodes to be involved= in per-algo info and calculation) or to all nodes (if the scaling is not a= concern but we want to remove the burden of distributed provisioning and f= looding). 2. With the proposed mechanism, will IGP still be used for the distribution= of Flex-Algo definition, the link admin-group information and the algo-spe= cific SIDs? And are per-algo SIDs still needed? Zzh> For the case of calculation only on relevant edge nodes, LAGs and FADs= are only distributed to those nodes using BGP not IGP. Per-algo SIDs are n= eeded only if the edge-calculated SR-TE path with adjacency-SIDs is too lon= g (last paragraph of section 1.3), and in that case the per-algo SIDs shoul= d only be distributed to relevant edge routers using BGP, also using the Bi= tmask RT for filtering. 3. After an edge node performs per-algo SPF, does it generate a SR policy l= ocally for the calculated SR-TE path? Zzh> The end result is that it uses the calculated SR-TE path to send traff= ic. Yes that could be via locally generated SR policy (my understanding is = that SR policy is not necessarily tied to controllers). 4. It proposes to use BGP-LS with RT for targeted FAD and link-state inform= ation distribution, as discussed in the IDR meeting, some reasons about why= BGP-LS or BGP is suitable for this would be needed. Zzh> I actually missed that discussion. Do you mean why BGP-LS vs. BGP, or = why BGP/BGP-LS vs. other means? It seems that BGP-LS is most natural - we a= lready have BGP-LS northbound for routers to send Link information to contr= ollers and the same can be used for controllers to send to routers, except = that we use BitMask RT to both carry LAG and for controlling route importat= ion/propagation. 5. In the IGP extensions, a router originates LSAs/LSPs with other node's l= ink-state information, this is different from the traditional IGP mechanism= . Also with IGP flooding, there is no control of the target nodes to receiv= ed and keep such information. Are these IGP extensions comply to the concep= t of the edge node computation? Zzh> I assume you're referring to "2.3. OSPF/ISIS Encoding of Link Adminis= trative Group Information for Cetralized Advertisement". Zzh> It is not for targeted distribution to only edge nodes. Rather, it is = for the traditional FlexAlgo case where every router is doing SPF for every= algo, except that the LAGs and FADs are centrally provisioned and signaled= (first to a few BGP-LS speakers like ABRs and then flooded to all IGP rout= ers - if they're not all BGP-LS speakers). Zzh> While the ABRs originate LSAs/LSPs with other node's link information,= the ABRs are not spoofing other nodes' LSAs/LSPs. They're using their own = LSAs/LSPs but providing the "hosting router" information so that others kno= w which router the links belong to. I think that is reasonable. Zzh> Thanks. Zzh> Jeffrey Looking forward to your feedbacks. Thanks. Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey (Zhaohui) Zhang [mailto:zzhang@juniper.net] > Sent: Friday, July 31, 2020 11:03 PM > To: licong@chinatelecom.cn; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; Dongjie (Jimmy)=20 > ; Lizhenbin > Subject: draft-xie-idr-bgpls-sr-vtn-mt > > Hi, > > About the following: > > 4. Scalability Considerations > > The mechanism described in this document requires that each VTN has > an independent topology, and for inter-domain VTNs, the MT-ID used in > each involved domain is consistent. While this brings the benefits > of simplicity, it also has some limitations. For example, it means > that even if multiple VTNs may have the same topology attribute, they > would still need to be identified using different MT-IDs in the > control plane. This requires that for each VTN, independent path > computation would be executed. The number of VTNs supported in a > network may be dependent on the number of topologies supported,=20 > which > is related to the control plane computation overhead. > > As I mentioned after Cong's presentation in ID, Flexible TE (Flexible=20 > Algorithm > + SR-TE + Targeted Distribution) addresses the above scaling concerns.=20 > + I also > have some further thoughts on advertising other attributes, to be=20 > published in later revisions of my draft-zzhang-teas-flexible-te draft. > > Would like to hear your thoughts and perhaps we can collaborate. > > Thanks. > Jeffrey > > Juniper Business Use Only= From nobody Wed Aug 12 06:45:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A879F3A106C for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id keDHUmf95d2f for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8C63A1046 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id e5so1466124qth.5 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=bmnQVdCGpR68Ok2/i0PhTwzx9DEwDYpp+mY7K2WcwSU=; b=DVMiUyPEGpiAjlgtnUAoNh09geoi0EUxUseXDIMcJsjycQjdDBJxYLMBa4gMGkGntf +XUqHtTnkVO/YLg4sSnN5n9X9UnGzhNFWxpF+wREHGChhhemrlt8elEVPp35t+QS6/iM igOsBRY1z+3iGCJNtbtYIhYgvsrQYPyEp28FSSD7V4M2eBlQAxnHNHGw8ip2jJXd75ke DKBj/y3ErdF1dykvB4M2cCdTNThih1JICvRuAVzzc82Z9YiTVcam1qykAkzIVF/xbqW7 pzlUdXE7y+1RIuk9tmU439vzMwrD54qleMYkRNKBJvAgH1pvvZwj6Gon4QUMbaZyp2C8 ODZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=bmnQVdCGpR68Ok2/i0PhTwzx9DEwDYpp+mY7K2WcwSU=; b=A7QKp1c7FVcTAmewiuLiuRzKLp14JM/y5T0Pn2+qSnJiTlRw/b6G9Ksk0NpgL1nF+c ycFFfRvvaNWrMetR5u3/AXwJhJtCCmy9G6MyIERMf9x+w2YfV6zLZzwYWfh5Go7+KvLh fGK0R4sWrxvel92Gcy4T0Dm9jx/RXYKbjthqlwj1aA+t5tGKA1MbCeHw7Ys8MxW+5alt libZdvNQcyHdBuEyys/gReZe+5cR+6V42Q4aB9uhPNRoflLca6SOrmJhpzABxIVqHcVo MyK+3fBW5OoE+Zr0rk68W2ViehkI7UUlm2btkueAPN3EQ55j9mVV41l2hmshlxDa69yJ Aawg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MkcUZgadLzWlMkICTaMVvJpIM1tCH+6YqRNhQ/qfI3HiUfu2R 1JIdkCKFCLfCZ9g92+ps+oI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywJ5xu1Nh250IhkmBuHCe54nchtISHU8K8ZUe9wCon/t7wK3Zp2JDIFvNBtL/gSDQIoiczHw== X-Received: by 2002:aed:3aa5:: with SMTP id o34mr6738884qte.359.1597239936160; Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:85:4680:3329:2ded:376c:adf8:cd72? ([2601:85:4680:3329:2ded:376c:adf8:cd72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm2217907qkm.44.2020.08.12.06.45.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Gray Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DF70D701-60CA-4A8C-95F0-A7925AA8779A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:45:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Joel Halpern Direct , "teas@ietf.org" To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" References: <159460858327.31249.6774312592426516405@ietfa.amsl.com> <8757A5BE-BD59-4B9C-A5E9-0DC4A4D74D87@nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:45:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DF70D701-60CA-4A8C-95F0-A7925AA8779A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Reza, On the topic of continued inclusion of TSRE. You are inappropriately assuming that we will _ever_ be = undertaking standards work that details the much of the internals of the = transport slice controller. I did not object to including some text on the topic of a = South-Bound Interface (SBI) - even though this is also out of scope in = our work (being again a part of the logical model for interactions = between the TSC and =E2=80=9Cstuff=E2=80=9D underlying it) - because of = the argument that it is useful to think of an SBI in order to allow = examples to be made for using various technology specific service = models. This is legitimate, because the use of such examples suggests = some similar work on technology-specific service models that might be = useful for support some possible TSC implementations. But Joel makes a very good point in saying that TSRE is out of = scope in this draft. Also, Joel earlier made the point that including = out-of-scope concepts strictly intended for use in future work is = misguided. For our purposes, it would be more useful to limit ourselves to = a simpler set of definitions that do not include additional and = out-of-scope confusing concepts. Finally, your stance on whether or not to remove this concept = should be based on TEAS working group consensus to continue to include = it - rather than your personal inclinations to do so. This draft was - = after all - suggested for adoption by the working group, and subsequent = changes will therefore be under the change control of the TEAS WG. =20 > On Aug 10, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = wrote: >=20 > Joel > Please see inline. > =20 > Cheers, > Reza > =20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-08-06, 11:17 AM, "Joel Halpern Direct" = > wrote: > =20 > Thank you for commenting the the TSRE question. > Let me reprase my question, given the comments... > =20 > Given that TSRE is strictly technology and infrastructure = specific, why > is it defined in this document? Whether we need it or not it = seems to > be outside the scope of this document. > [Reza] Since the transport slice definition draft addresses various = aspects of the transport slice such transport slice realization were = introduced and a result the TRSE was mentioned briefly to allow later = drafts to discuss it in details. > Same is for example for =E2=80=9CTransport Slice Controller (TSC)=E2=80=9D= . This document introduced the TSC concept and again later draft can = give more details. > =20 > =20 > Yours, > Joel > =20 > On 8/6/2020 11:12 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > Thanks Joel for your comments. > >=20 > > Please see inline for TSRE. > >=20 > > Reza > >=20 > > On 2020-07-12, 11:59 PM, "Teas on behalf of Joel Halpern" > > wrote: > >=20 > > My thanks to the design team for the update to this = document. It is > >=20 > > much improved. > >=20 > > I a unable to understand the third paragraph of section = 4.1.2. I do > >=20 > > not know what maximum occupancy refers to. It seems to be = talking > > about > >=20 > > some kind of notion of objectives applying to subsets of = traffic > > within > >=20 > > a slice. But I can't tell. > >=20 > > Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears = to be > > trying > >=20 > > to be informative rather than normative. However, the last > > paragraph of > >=20 > > introduces things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that = are not > >=20 > > described in the rest of the document, and do not actually = seem to > > me to > >=20 > > be appropriate. I wowuld ask that the last paragraph of = section > > A.1 be > >=20 > > stricken. > >=20 > > Some minor comments: > >=20 > > At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as = the contract > >=20 > > 5that describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing = them. Then > >=20 > > in section 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA". = Believe > > you > >=20 > > mean "form the objective portion of the SLA" or = "contribute to the > > SLA" > >=20 > > or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects = of the SLA > >=20 > > are outside of the SLOs? > >=20 > > Given that availability is defined in terms of the other = SLOs (quite > >=20 > > reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly = measurable), it > >=20 > > seems that availability should itself be considered = indirectly > > measurable? > >=20 > > nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an = initial > >=20 > > list, there is no need to include a bullet in the aspects = that says > >=20 > > "Other objectives could be specified". It is true. But = has already > >=20 > > been stated above. > >=20 > > In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text = seems to say > >=20 > > that an endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, = P2MP, ...). > >=20 > > It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both = P2P and > > P2MP > >=20 > > communication. It seems rather odd to have to consider it = to be two > >=20 > > TSEs. =46rom later text, it is the slice, not the = endpoint, which as a > >=20 > > particular connectivity type. > >=20 > > I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is = useful?=20 > > Given > >=20 > > that many things are in both the sample TSE list and the = sample TSRE > >=20 > > list, it is going to be hard to tell them apart. And as = far as I can > >=20 > > tell, the TSRE is internal to the transport, and therefore = outside the > >=20 > > scope of this document? The differentiation in the diagram = that > > follows > >=20 > > the description does not seem to line up with the = description, and > >=20 > > leaves me more confused. > >=20 > > [Reza] > >=20 > > As mentioned in draft, Transport slice realization endpoints = (TSRE) are > > allocated and > >=20 > > assigned by the network controller during the realization of a > > transport slice and are technology-specific, i.e. they depend = on the > >=20 > > network technology used during the transport slice realization. > >=20 > > Depends on the definition of the transport slice, Transport = Slice > > endpoints (TSE) and TSRE might be very similar but their object = models > > are different. > >=20 > > Please also see the following draft which addresses the modeling = of the > > transport slice realization: > >=20 > > * draft-liu-teas-transport-network-slice-yang-01 > >=20 > > In summary, TRSE are assigned during the transport slice = realization and > > will be communicated from TSC NBI to higher system =E2=80=9CTransp= ort slice > > Customer=E2=80=9D and identifies how a transport slice is = realized in the network. > >=20 > > We will add more clarification to the draft. > >=20 > > Yours, > >=20 > > Joel > >=20 > > On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > > Internet-Drafts directories. > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Title : IETF Definition of Transport = Slice > >=20 > > > Authors : Reza Rokui > >=20 > > > Shunsuke Homma > >=20 > > > Kiran Makhijani > >=20 > > > Luis M. Contreras > >=20 > > > Jeff Tantsura > >=20 > > > Filename : > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >=20 > > > Pages : 21 > >=20 > > > Date : 2020-07-12 > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Abstract: > >=20 > > > This document describes the definition of a slice in = the > > transport > >=20 > > > networks and its characteristics. The purpose here = is to bring > >=20 > > > clarity and a common understanding of the transport = slice > > concept and > >=20 > > > describe related terms and their meaning. It = explains how > > transport > >=20 > > > slices can be used in combination with end to end = network > > slices, or > >=20 > > > independently. > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n/ > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition-03 > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini= tion-03 > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of > > submission > >=20 > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >=20 > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > >=20 > > > I-D-Announce mailing list > >=20 > > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > >=20 > > > Internet-Draft directories: = http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >=20 > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > >=20 > > Teas mailing list > >=20 > > Teas@ietf.org > >=20 > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail=_DF70D701-60CA-4A8C-95F0-A7925AA8779A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Reza,

On the = topic of continued inclusion of TSRE.

You are inappropriately assuming = that we will _ever_ be undertaking standards work that details the much = of the internals of the transport slice controller.

I did not = object to including some text on the topic of a South-Bound Interface = (SBI) - even though this is also out of scope in our work (being again a = part of the logical model for interactions between the TSC and = =E2=80=9Cstuff=E2=80=9D underlying it) - because of the argument that it = is useful to think of an SBI in order to allow examples to be made for = using various technology specific service models.
This is legitimate, because the = use of such examples suggests some similar work on technology-specific = service models that might be useful for support some possible TSC = implementations.

= But Joel makes a very good point in saying that TSRE is out of = scope in this draft.  Also, Joel earlier made the point that = including out-of-scope concepts strictly intended for use in future work = is misguided.

= For our purposes, it would be more useful to limit ourselves to a = simpler set of definitions that do not include additional and = out-of-scope confusing concepts.

Finally, your stance on whether = or not to remove this concept should be based on TEAS working group = consensus to continue to include it - rather than your personal = inclinations to do so.  This draft was - after all - suggested for = adoption by the working group, and subsequent changes will therefore be = under the change control of the TEAS WG.

 

On Aug = 10, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com> wrote:

Joel
Please see inline.
 
Cheers,
Reza
 
=EF=BB=BFOn 2020-08-06, 11:17 AM, "Joel = Halpern Direct" <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
 
    Thank you for commenting = the the TSRE question.
   = Let me reprase my question, given the comments...
 
    Given that TSRE is strictly = technology and infrastructure specific, why
    is it defined in this document?  = Whether we need it or not it seems to
    be outside the scope of this = document.
[Reza] = Since the transport slice definition draft addresses various aspects of = the transport slice such transport slice realization were introduced and = a result the TRSE was mentioned briefly to allow later drafts to discuss = it in details.
Same is for = example for =E2=80=9CTransport Slice Controller (TSC)=E2=80=9D. This = document introduced the TSC concept and again later draft can give more = details.
 
 
    Yours,
    Joel
 
    On 8/6/2020 11:12 AM, = Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote:
    > Thanks Joel for your comments.
    > 
    > Please see inline for TSRE.
    > 
    > Reza
    > 
    > On 2020-07-12, 11:59 PM, "Teas = on behalf of Joel Halpern"
    > <teas-bounces@ietf.org= on behalf of jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
    > 
    >      My = thanks to the design team for the update to this document.  It = is
    > 
    >      = much improved.
    > 
    >      I = a  unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.2.  = I do
    > 
    >      = not know what maximum occupancy refers to.  It seems to be = talking
    > about
    > 
    >      = some kind of notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic
    > within
    > 
    >      a = slice.  But I can't tell.
   = > 
    >      = Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be
    > trying
    > 
    >      to = be informative rather than normative.  However, the last
    > paragraph of
    > 
    >      = introduces things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not
    > 
    >      = described in the rest of the document, and do not actually seem to
    > me to
    > 
    >      be = appropriate.  I wowuld ask that the last paragraph of section
    > A.1 be
    > 
    >      = stricken.
    > 
    >     =  Some minor comments:
   = > 
    >      At = one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contract
    > 
    >      = 5that describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them.  = Then
    > 
    >      in = section 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA".  = Believe
    > you
    > 
    >      = mean "form the objective portion of the SLA"  or "contribute to = the
    > SLA"
    > 
    >      or = something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the SLA
    > 
    >      = are outside of the SLOs?
   = > 
    >      = Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (quite
    > 
    >      = reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable), = it
    > 
    >      = seems that availability should itself be considered indirectly
    > measurable?
    > 
    >      = nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initial
    > 
    >      = list, there is no need to include a bullet in the aspects that says
    > 
    >      = "Other objectives could be specified".  It is true.  But has = already
    > 
    >      = been stated above.
    > 
    >      In = section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to say
    > 
    >      = that an endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, = ...).
    > 
    >      It = seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and
    > P2MP
    > 
    >      = communication.  It seems rather odd to have to consider it to be = two
    > 
    >      = TSEs.  =46rom later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which = as a
    > 
    >      = particular connectivity type.
   = > 
    >      I = wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is = useful? 
    > Given
    > 
    >      = that many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE
    > 
    >      = list, it is going to be hard to tell them apart.  And as far as I = can
    > 
    >      = tell, the TSRE is internal to the transport, and therefore outside = the
    > 
    >      = scope of this document?  The differentiation in the diagram = that
    > follows
    > 
    >      = the description does not seem to line up with the description, and
    > 
    >      = leaves me more confused.
   = > 
    > [Reza]
    > 
    > As mentioned in draft, Transport = slice realization endpoints (TSRE) are
    > allocated and
    > 
    > assigned by the network = controller during the realization of a
    >   transport slice and = are technology-specific, i.e. they depend on the
    > 
    > network technology used during = the transport slice realization.
   = > 
    > Depends on the definition of the = transport slice, Transport Slice
    > endpoints (TSE) and TSRE might = be very similar but their object models
    > are different.
    > 
    > Please also see the following = draft which addresses the modeling of the
    > transport slice realization:
    > 
    >   * = draft-liu-teas-transport-network-slice-yang-01
    > 
    > In summary, TRSE are assigned = during the transport slice realization and
    > will be communicated from TSC = NBI to higher system =E2=80=9CTransport slice
    > Customer=E2=80=9D and identifies = how a transport slice is realized in the network.
    > 
    > We will add more clarification = to the draft.
    > 
    >      = Yours,
    > 
    >      = Joel
    > 
    >      On = 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
    > 
    >  =     >
   = > 
    >      = > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
    > Internet-Drafts directories.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >          = Title           : IETF = Definition of Transport Slice
   = > 
    >      = >          = Authors         : Reza Rokui
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Shunsuke Homma
   = > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Kiran Makhijani
   = > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Luis M. Contreras
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Jeff Tantsura
   = > 
    >      = >         = Filename        :
    > = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
    > 
    >      = >      =    Pages        &nb= sp;  : 21
    > 
    >      = >         = Date            : = 2020-07-12
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Abstract:
    > 
    >      = >     This document describes the definition of a = slice in the
    > transport
    > 
    >      = >     networks and its characteristics.  The = purpose here is to bring
   = > 
    >      = >     clarity and a common understanding of the = transport slice
    > concept and
    > 
    >      = >     describe related terms and their = meaning.  It explains how
    > transport
    > 
    >      = >     slices can be used in combination with end = to end network
    > slices, or
    > 
    >      = >     independently.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slic= e-definition/
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    > =      > There are also htmlized versions = available at:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition-03
    > 
    >      = > 
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport= -slice-definition-03
   = > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > A diff from the previous version is available at:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-s= lice-definition-03
   = > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of
    > submission
    > 
    >      = > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
    > 
    >      = > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > _______________________________________________
    > 
    >      = > I-D-Announce mailing list
   = > 
    >      = > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
    > 
    >      = > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
    > 
    >      = > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
    > 
    >      = > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = _______________________________________________
    > 
    >      = Teas mailing list
    > 
    >      Teas@ietf.org
    > 
    >      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
    > 
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

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DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUhn405JaY9J; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x130.google.com (mail-lf1-x130.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06F1E3A03EE; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x130.google.com with SMTP id b11so3732385lfe.10; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; 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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530dl4CyLQEF/uNNt4q04DVbb3EfGpKys54yrO+O4l0pL8lxS94T O+t0vtw9HI3I5E5r82lUjluc/tZOtJq+HSsbd8ciLg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyAZfXnI1w/StMMbwRKobM2cOPrx2M+5ddW30sg7YQpNsLhCiYqEVyirqrvQvN3EvZpZkl5moTUMRrieU/A/hc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:36c2:: with SMTP id e2mr3016280lfs.98.1597351731814; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159460858327.31249.6774312592426516405@ietfa.amsl.com> <37b6cbcc-5e1e-f4b1-b914-6759f74d59bc@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <37b6cbcc-5e1e-f4b1-b914-6759f74d59bc@joelhalpern.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:48:38 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Kiran Makhijani , "teas@ietf.org" , "teas-ns-dt@ietf.org" , draft-mirsky-ippm-epm@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008e63b305acc86ec0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:49:24 -0000 --0000000000008e63b305acc86ec0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Joel, Kiran, et al., I want to bring to your attention a draft that we've submitted right before IETF-108 - Error Performance Measurement in Packet-switched Networks . As part of defining metrics of EPM, the document specifies the method to detect and measure availability and unavailability. I hope you'll be interested and much appreciate your comments, including the IPPM WG list . Regards, Greg On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Comments in-line, marked . > I still have some substantive concerns. > Yours, > Joel > > On 7/20/2020 6:53 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > My apologies, I could not reply sooner. Many thanks for paying attention > to the document and reviewing it. > > Please see inline. > > Cheers > > Kiran > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel Halpern > >> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:00 PM > >> To: teas@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >> > >> My thanks to the design team for the update to this document. It is > much > >> improved. > >> > >> I a unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.2. I do > not know > >> what maximum occupancy refers to. It seems to be talking about some > kind of > >> notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic within a slice. > But I can't tell. > >> > > [KM] Maximum occupancy implies that when transport slice will 'max out' > or overall limit on the slice after which it becomes best effort (may not > meet its SLOs). For example, a slice can support 20 flows each with 10 Mbps > data rate but 21st flow may or may not get desired bandwidth and it is not > an SLO violation. There could be different kinds of limits using objectives > such as number of flows, total bandwidth, or may also be other things that > a user could ask for such as, max number of addresses, nf instances, etc > (this part is coming from NF related resources). This is important for both > network operators and transport slice controllers to plan resource > allocations better. > > I am having real trouble understanding what you want to accomplish > with this maximum occupancy. The example you give is 20 flows of 10 > Mbps each. However, there is no parameter given taht is bps/flow. And > I would hope that there would not be. How the customer divides his > bandwidth up among his own traffic is up to him. Bandwidth as a total > does not have an "occupancy". The service is guarnateed up to the > stated bandwidth. If you can justify a "number of flows" SLO, then we > can have that, although from where I sit I can not see why any slice > service would operate in those terms. Many years experience with > Internet Scaling has taught us that core scaling that is based on number > of flows will fail. > > > > >> Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be trying > to be > >> informative rather than normative. However, the last paragraph of > introduces > >> things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not described in the > rest of > >> the document, and do not actually seem to me to be appropriate. I > wowuld ask > >> that the last paragraph of section A.1 be stricken. > > > > [KM] Actually, we are saying these are 'not' SLOs and the customer may > have specific asks (optionally). Examples in this paragraph help in > clarifying meanings of isolations, linking with VPN+ and may also be input > to NBI. Considering this could be our top-level document, we/I prefer to > provide some linkage to later documents. An upshot of doing this is we will > not have to repeat the discussions we had - since it is already agreed upon > and can be referred to. > > Given the way the document defines SLOs, if these are parameters > the customer can request, and may want to monitor, then they are SLOs. > If they are SLOs, they should not be hidden in an appendix. > And if this is for framing other discussion, I would have thought that > was the job of the framework document, not the definitions document. > And no, I do not think the examples help clarify the meaning of > "isolation". And no, I do not agree with the text. So no, it is not > "already agreed". > > >> > >> Some minor comments: > >> > >> At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contract > 5that > >> describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them. Then in > section > >> 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA". Believe you mean "form > the > >> objective portion of the SLA" or "contribute to the SLA" > >> or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the SLA > are > >> outside of the SLOs? > > [KM] Yes, that is correct. We should add this statement ( contractual > aspects of the SLAS are outside the scope) to improve the text. > >> > >> Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (quite > >> reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable), it > seems > >> that availability should itself be considered indirectly measurable? > >> > > [KM] Since we define it as "uptime to total_time", it is measurable, > however that may be. > Since I consider this minor, I will not insist on it. But as far > as I can tell, you can't measure uptime. You measure whether other SLO > parameters are met, and then calculate what portion of the time any of > them were out of spec. That sounds like an indirect measurement to > me. > > > > >> nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initial > list, there is no > >> need to include a bullet in the aspects that says "Other objectives > could be > >> specified". It is true. But has already been stated above. > > > > [KM] :-) It is there to separate measurable vs non-measurable asks. If > the nsdt agrees, I don't mind removing the sub-heading. > > > >> In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to say > that an > >> endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, ...). > >> It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and P2MP > >> communication. It seems rather odd to have to consider it to be two > TSEs. > >> From later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which as a > particular > >> connectivity type. > > > > [KM] Agree. It is not supposed to imply 2 TSEs. If I understood > correctly, you think 'MP2MP' does not make sense. Am I right? If yes, then > at least I was thinking of direction of the traffic flow. i.e., traffic > could flow out to different TSEs or flow in from different TSE sources. We > will discuss how to improve the text - add explanation or remove MP2MP. > I was not commenting on whether there is an MP2MP service. I was > commenting on the fact that the text seems to assign types to the TSEs > rather than to the slice. Given that you agree that one should not need > two TSEs, please remove the text that says that TSEs have a type (Pt2Pt, > Pt2MPT, ...) > > > > >> > >> I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is useful? > Given that > >> many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE list, > it is going > >> to be hard to tell them apart. And as far as I can tell, the TSRE is > internal to the > >> transport, and therefore outside the scope of this document? The > >> differentiation in the diagram that follows the description does not > seem to > >> line up with the description, and leaves me more confused. > > [KM] Yes, it is internal to transport. The reason we have them is to > highlight the 1:N mappings. There may be more than one TSRE mapped to one > TSE. Todo: need to think about improving the figure. > > I understand that things are realized. And the question of how > resources are used internally is internal. I don't see the value in > discussing it in this document. I do not think the definition of TSRE > will be used in any of the followon work. > > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >>> > >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > >>> > >>> > >>> Title : IETF Definition of Transport Slice > >>> Authors : Reza Rokui > >>> Shunsuke Homma > >>> Kiran Makhijani > >>> Luis M. Contreras > >>> Jeff Tantsura > >>> Filename : draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >>> Pages : 21 > >>> Date : 2020-07-12 > >>> > >>> Abstract: > >>> This document describes the definition of a slice in the transport > >>> networks and its characteristics. The purpose here is to bring > >>> clarity and a common understanding of the transport slice concept > and > >>> describe related terms and their meaning. It explains how > transport > >>> slices can be used in combination with end to end network slices, > or > >>> independently. > >>> > >>> > >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata > >>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition%2F > >>> > >> &data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549c > >> af08d82 > >>> > >> 6e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096 > >> 09577396 > >>> > >> 3&sdata=7buYe3eJIHKFpKR09vulM9iebHux1y5ZS%2B8lDucs19A%3D&am > >> p;reser > >>> ved=0 > >>> > >>> There are also htmlized versions available at: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftool > >>> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03& > >>> > >> data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d > >> 826e13a > >>> > >> ab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63730209609577 > >> 3963& > >>> > >> ;sdata=%2BDoN%2Fj%2BsIG4SidwevIEKt%2BAlEBSl5mGY%2BrV8bOKruxY%3D > >> &re > >>> served=0 > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdata > >>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini > >>> tion- > >> 03&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b415 > >> 49c > >>> > >> af08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637 > >> 3020960 > >>> > >> 95773963&sdata=rROaEyLnsvX3i83zAt3DKHD822SQ9cZ4vw05CZzGKYk% > >> 3D& > >>> reserved=0 > >>> > >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>> ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>> - > >> 03&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b415 > >> 49caf08 > >>> > >> d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302 > >> 09609577 > >>> > >> 3963&sdata=VDTj6H50YyxvSKeUxXdDTxUmlhVb34%2FKkRIXMWd4W%2 > >> BY%3D& > >>> reserved=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > >>> > >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie > >>> tf.org%2Finternet- > >> drafts%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com% > >>> > >> 7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d559 > >> 1fedc% > >>> > >> 7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=P0ZsXdbhq7q%2BbaTOWOK > >> w8kXUEQQLn > >>> W4CILvj3D87Ghg%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> I-D-Announce mailing list > >>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi-d- > >> announce&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm > >>> > >> %40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b > >> 24018 > >>> > >> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=UKy30l > >> dThBDSB% > >>> 2F9513KCraQ4ODcTtq%2F%2FDfHSwi8Y6Nk%3D&reserved=0 > >>> Internet-Draft directories: > >>> > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > >>> > >> etf.org%2Fshadow.html&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com% > >> 7C7b22 > >>> > >> 62bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc% > >> 7C1%7C > >>> > >> 0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=c5sC8mBqP2lTaDxRiqMmVWXQVfBi > >> 0SGf1Nn1A > >>> 5Tiekg%3D&reserved=0 or > >>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=ftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie > >>> tf.org%2Fietf%2F1shadow- > >> sites.txt&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewe > >>> > >> i.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753 > >> a1d559 > >>> > >> 1fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=7kPSpNmxVrwrE6by > >> 55jlY%2B5 > >>> yBSHeMXgwZhPYM%2F9yj3Y%3D&reserved=0 > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu > >> turewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > >> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&sdata=3q4fLZ > >> 2BdNuYfXsMHmGd%2Be0RO%2BBzxvi4%2FzvL0LCSKPM%3D&reserved= > >> 0 > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000008e63b305acc86ec0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Joel, Kiran, et al.,
I want to bring to your atte= ntion a draft that we've submitted right before IETF-108 - Error Performance M= easurement in Packet-switched Networks. As part of defining metrics of = EPM, the document specifies the method to detect and measure availability a= nd unavailability. I hope you'll be interested and much appreciate your= comments, including the IPPM WG list.=

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020= at 8:01 PM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@= joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Comments in-line, marked <jmh></jmh>.
I still have some substantive concerns.
Yours,
Joel

On 7/20/2020 6:53 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> Hi Joel,
> My apologies, I could not reply sooner. Many thanks for paying attenti= on to the document and reviewing it.
> Please see inline.
> Cheers
> Kiran
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel Halpern
>> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2020 9:00 PM
>> To: teas@ietf.o= rg
>> Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition-03.txt
>>
>> My thanks to the design team for the update to this document.=C2= =A0 It is much
>> improved.
>>
>> I a=C2=A0 unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.= 2.=C2=A0 I do not know
>> what maximum occupancy refers to.=C2=A0 It seems to be talking abo= ut some kind of
>> notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic within a slice= .=C2=A0 But I can't tell.
>>
> [KM] Maximum occupancy implies that when transport slice will 'max= out' or overall limit on the slice after which it becomes best effort = (may not meet its SLOs). For example, a slice can support 20 flows each wit= h 10 Mbps data rate but 21st flow may or may not get desired bandwidth and = it is not an SLO violation. There could be different kinds of limits using = objectives such as number of flows, total bandwidth, or may also be other t= hings that a user could ask for such as, max number of addresses, nf instan= ces, etc (this part is coming from NF related resources). This is important= for both network operators and transport slice controllers to plan resourc= e allocations better.

<jmh>I am having real trouble understanding what you want to accompli= sh
with this maximum occupancy.=C2=A0 The example you give is 20 flows of 10 <= br> Mbps each.=C2=A0 However, there is no parameter given taht is bps/flow.=C2= =A0 And
I would hope that there would not be.=C2=A0 How the customer divides his bandwidth up among his own traffic is up to him.=C2=A0 Bandwidth as a total=
does not have an "occupancy".=C2=A0 The service is guarnateed up = to the
stated bandwidth.=C2=A0 If you can justify a "number of flows" SL= O, then we
can have that, although from where I sit I can not see why any slice
service would operate in those terms.=C2=A0 Many years experience with
Internet Scaling has taught us that core scaling that is based on number of flows will fail. </jmh>

>
>> Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be t= rying to be
>> informative rather than normative.=C2=A0 However, the last paragra= ph of introduces
>> things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not described i= n the rest of
>> the document, and do not actually seem to me to be appropriate.=C2= =A0 I wowuld ask
>> that the last paragraph of section A.1 be stricken.
>
> [KM] Actually, we are saying these are 'not' SLOs and the cust= omer may have specific asks (optionally).=C2=A0 Examples in this paragraph = help in clarifying meanings of isolations, linking with VPN+=C2=A0 and may = also be input to NBI. Considering this could be our top-level document, we/= I prefer to provide some linkage to later documents. An upshot of doing thi= s is we will not have to repeat the discussions we had - since it is alread= y agreed upon and can be referred to.

<jmh> Given the way the document defines SLOs, if these are parameter= s
the customer can request, and may want to monitor, then they are SLOs.
If they are SLOs, they should not be hidden in an appendix.
And if this is for framing other discussion, I would have thought that
was the job of the framework document, not the definitions document.
And no, I do not think the examples help clarify the meaning of
"isolation".=C2=A0 And no, I do not agree with the text.=C2=A0 So= no, it is not
"already agreed". </jmh>

>>
>> Some minor comments:
>>
>> At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contr= act 5that
>> describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them.=C2=A0 T= hen in section
>> 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA".=C2=A0 Be= lieve you mean "form the
>> objective portion of the SLA"=C2=A0 or "contribute to th= e SLA"
>> or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the= SLA are
>> outside of the SLOs?
> [KM] Yes, that is correct. We should add this statement ( contractual = aspects of the SLAS are outside the scope) to improve the text.
>>
>> Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (qui= te
>> reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable)= , it seems
>> that availability should itself be considered indirectly measurabl= e?
>>
> [KM] Since we define it as "uptime to total_time", it is mea= surable, however that may be.
<jmh> Since I consider this minor, I will not insist on it.=C2=A0 But= as far
as I can tell, you can't measure uptime.=C2=A0 You measure whether othe= r SLO
parameters are met, and then calculate what portion of the time any of
them were out of spec.=C2=A0 That sounds like an indirect measurement to me.</jmh>

>
>> nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initia= l list, there is no
>> need to include a bullet in the aspects that says "Other obje= ctives could be
>> specified".=C2=A0 It is true.=C2=A0 But has already been stat= ed above.
>
> [KM] :-) It is there to separate measurable vs non-measurable asks. If= the nsdt agrees, I don't mind removing the sub-heading.
>
>> In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to s= ay that an
>> endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, ...).
>> It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and= P2MP
>> communication.=C2=A0 It seems rather odd to have to consider it to= be two TSEs.
>>=C2=A0 From later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which as= a particular
>> connectivity type.
>
> [KM] Agree.=C2=A0 It is not supposed to imply 2 TSEs. If I understood = correctly, you think 'MP2MP' does not make sense. Am I right? If ye= s, then at least I was thinking of direction of the traffic flow. i.e., tra= ffic could flow out to different TSEs or flow in from different TSE sources= . We will discuss how to improve the text - add explanation or remove MP2MP= .
<jmh>I was not commenting on whether there is an MP2MP service.=C2=A0= I was
commenting on the fact that the text seems to assign types to the TSEs
rather than to the slice.=C2=A0 Given that you agree that one should not ne= ed
two TSEs, please remove the text that says that TSEs have a type (Pt2Pt, Pt2MPT, ...) </jmh>

>
>>
>> I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" i= s useful?=C2=A0 Given that
>> many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE li= st, it is going
>> to be hard to tell them apart.=C2=A0 And as far as I can tell, the= TSRE is internal to the
>> transport, and therefore outside the scope of this document?=C2=A0= The
>> differentiation in the diagram that follows the description does n= ot seem to
>> line up with the description, and leaves me more confused.
> [KM] Yes, it is internal to transport. The reason we have them is to h= ighlight the 1:N mappings. There may be more than one TSRE mapped to one TS= E. Todo: need to think about improving the figure.

<jmh> I understand that things are realized.=C2=A0 And the question o= f how
resources are used internally is internal.=C2=A0 I don't see the value = in
discussing it in this document.=C2=A0 I do not think the definition of TSRE=
will be used in any of the followon work. </jmh>

>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Dr= afts directories.
>>>
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IETF Definition of Transport Slice
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Reza Rokui
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Shunsuke Homma
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kiran Makhijani
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Luis M. Contreras
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeff Tantsura
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft= -nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 21
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2020-07-12
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document describes the definition of = a slice in the transport
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 networks and its characteristics.=C2=A0 Th= e purpose here is to bring
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clarity and a common understanding of the = transport slice concept and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 describe related terms and their meaning.= =C2=A0 It explains how transport
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 slices can be used in combination with end= to end network slices, or
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 independently.
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://nam11.s= afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata
>>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition%2F
>>>
>> &amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41= 549c
>> af08d82
>>>
>> 6e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096
>> 09577396
>>>
>> 3&amp;sdata=3D7buYe3eJIHKFpKR09vulM9iebHux1y5ZS%2B8lDucs19A%3D= &am
>> p;reser
>>> ved=3D0
>>>
>>> There are also htmlized versions available at:
>>> https://nam11.s= afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool
>>> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03&= amp;amp;
>>>
>> data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d=
>> 826e13a
>>>
>> ab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63730209609577
>> 3963&amp
>>>
>> ;sdata=3D%2BDoN%2Fj%2BsIG4SidwevIEKt%2BAlEBSl5mGY%2BrV8bOKruxY%3D<= br> >> &amp;re
>>> served=3D0
>>> https://nam11.s= afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata
>>> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-nsdt-teas-transport-s= lice-defini
>>> tion-
>> 03&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b= 415
>> 49c
>>>
>> af08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637 >> 3020960
>>>
>> 95773963&amp;sdata=3DrROaEyLnsvX3i83zAt3DKHD822SQ9cZ4vw05CZzGK= Yk%
>> 3D&amp;
>>> reserved=3D0
>>>
>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>
>> https://nam11.safeli= nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
>>> ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definiti= on
>>> -
>> 03&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b= 415
>> 49caf08
>>>
>> d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302
>> 09609577
>>>
>> 3963&amp;sdata=3DVDTj6H50YyxvSKeUxXdDTxUmlhVb34%2FKkRIXMWd4W%2=
>> BY%3D&amp;
>>> reserved=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time= of
>>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available a= t to= ols.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> https://nam11.s= afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie
>>> tf.org%2Finternet-
>> drafts%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%
>>>
>> 7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d559 >> 1fedc%
>>>
>> 7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&amp;sdata=3DP0ZsXdbhq7q%2BbaTOWOK=
>> w8kXUEQQLn
>>> W4CILvj3D87Ghg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>>> I-D= -Announce@ietf.org
>>>
>> https://nam11.safeli= nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
>>> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fi-d-
>> announce&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm
>>>
>> %40futurewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b=
>> 24018
>>>
>> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&amp;sdata=3DUKy3= 0l
>> dThBDSB%
>>> 2F9513KCraQ4ODcTtq%2F%2FDfHSwi8Y6Nk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 >>> Internet-Draft directories:
>>>
>> https://nam11.safel= inks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.i
>>>
>> et= f.org%2Fshadow.html&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com% >> 7C7b22
>>>
>> 62bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc% >> 7C1%7C
>>>
>> 0%7C637302096095783957&amp;sdata=3Dc5sC8mBqP2lTaDxRiqMmVWXQVfB= i
>> 0SGf1Nn1A
>>> 5Tiekg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 or
>>> https://nam11.s= afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dftp%3A%2F%2Fftp.ie
>>> tf.org%2Fietf%2F1shadow-
>> sites.txt&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewe
>>>
>> i.co= m%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753
>> a1d559
>>>
>> 1fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&amp;sdata=3D7kPSpNmxVrwrE6b= y
>> 55jlY%2B5
>>> yBSHeMXgwZhPYM%2F9yj3Y%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teas mailing list
>> Teas@ietf.org
>> https://nam11.safe= links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i
>> et= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu<= br> >> turewei.com%7C7b2262bf8d9b41549caf08d826e13aab%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
>> 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637302096095783957&amp;sdata=3D3q4f= LZ
>> 2BdNuYfXsMHmGd%2Be0RO%2BBzxvi4%2FzvL0LCSKPM%3D&amp;reserved=3D=
>> 0

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--0000000000008e63b305acc86ec0-- From nobody Thu Aug 13 19:38:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A153A0C33; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:38:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2M7D3LXqI8eR; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DEBA3A0C31; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id y18so7241526ilp.10; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:38:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u18Mgpi4p72JlRSESRzj5ZeqneTsiR+JoEICIxmzM/s=; b=JEzfvZc3rMnQKklPzZ3InJD0q9dc3iEozipWDfaptLP4ode77NrYenjD1NUTre6/pc 5qVF38PO4zrOVVfG9vr+Ut7TJF/XN+ZKzVrXkceLwe4Kj3GHLD9f5FOvz/h+uZDXGfYz 5Frdaki/8+qRgrNmjTYqdiME4IqQRCkW3cXTqM7zx/CiUl1eoVSVMLty4rQEFSChE/Ep FyG1FQBYuDju8JG61dilUb7pOfg8nQmH+2kHqlEc8i8kIQaLMyxuLAgdFtqSulj/0eGo V8Gc/qf+6sPUTxd/DPQ+WFIqrtXw8Fx1x4GN6+/pia1CNhj7GIHe5iQmTvqOVlC2JSlE DrgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=u18Mgpi4p72JlRSESRzj5ZeqneTsiR+JoEICIxmzM/s=; b=Q7QJtzP9vV5u0UEcE+DeTUzaCznc7nE4npfMRYadazy6LMD9wUwJJ1IfNSxk7n3fFd 8oWJAUzj9zV3lHST8ERXe9u/29U87WNaL8qO/+ePe7coKiHnkhB7mUlEsUezrWtmRJ8q x+h1Qf7VT5Ee9dWGah+kk9orvuzCLAYZEl2ns1GhjuC/BqDUQJQo4NkcXOxDOpGEq9+N OAmkks4V+V0Wmw5HZB7uZn2JGDz8h6omSzjtf19iACzByEc3r2xjMpBzpv+k58n2dTjZ Kqd07IUh5UETqGDzzC8sUbu5Gfgt/XXgJGTDY4p0RnAnRSvUT9Ru725gzmv3tGgTK0dj vuxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531dryFPlaW3cvLswMToPLbSUN6+XsusFjFrmfvWlhL3EoPkuYR9 E6Vjsd28vy57pmgeYW3GZHW8+BAUF6gT6l0tU1Sf2mDJq+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwSG7sh4dUFCiw6qJyLf959xQFJHFqaBFXjTYEGNVmRtzlCUdHWpRwLB3mOxuPYD2p46/wV8snrbdLNRSBfuI0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8b51:: with SMTP id i78mr668426ild.179.1597372708288; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:38:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 21:38:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d9fc8805accd50bc" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 02:38:36 -0000 --000000000000d9fc8805accd50bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends Aug 27th. Thanks, Pavan and Lou --000000000000d9fc8805accd50bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document.
Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends Aug 27th.

Thanks,
Pavan and Lou
--000000000000d9fc8805accd50bc-- From nobody Thu Aug 13 20:15:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6D33A0C60; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tBnCJD77IO6p; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 720BA3A0C59; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E61E6820726FA975D4E0; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 04:15:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 04:15:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.32) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 04:15:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.113]) by DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::89ed:853e:30a9:2a79%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:15:18 +0800 From: Zhenghaomian To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG CC: TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability Thread-Index: AQHWceQWYOnjkwWXlEaNp4Tos/1dHak27jDA Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:15:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.24.176.178] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E0C26CAA2504C84093A49B2CAC3261A43F920922dggeml511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gcG9sbCAtIGRyYWZ0?= =?utf-8?q?-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability?= X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:15:28 -0000 --_000_E0C26CAA2504C84093A49B2CAC3261A43F920922dggeml511mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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[73.63.232.212]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q5sm7487222pfg.89.2020.08.13.20.30.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jeff Tantsura Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 20:30:35 -0700 Message-Id: <2656B97B-7C66-48B6-9CB1-44ECABD92890@gmail.com> References: Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs In-Reply-To: To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G68) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 03:30:46 -0000 Yes/support Regards, Jeff > On Aug 13, 2020, at 19:38, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > All, >=20 > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >=20 > The poll ends Aug 27th. >=20 > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Thu Aug 13 22:13:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616303A0D2B; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:13:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sOB0zHWeocin; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF3D53A0D25; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id z6so9662521iow.6; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:13:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ngKMPtqZ3+NKrGOdJcRqZxMik1ICHZpm3xwyPZ2Xssg=; b=GR3qHLr0lodazVVXq06hMLTfa38oN0VSSin//SAO8WgyJodJXQ6Tgxsph19V+ESZse L/Xrc7m0XCxMgKzNU2RkFRpI5VG3t90ZCFeUQ6J2PDh260x54xiv4kcpOqTA/MucjKIN vDpVHeWPfvVTKbkTBrz5UAvWE0G7u9kpGFUMxT0yehIFwrD1CzUKmprITmK2KkA8UGYk Die89tFjjak89fhn9Rj6yi2JQufvHehfrS6dIuStJy0CQzTNXk3jSRf06E0typIT7uzV 6dY5LmlyawztXyW0wZsNeACa53bCZ3ST6wqKHyv5i+FQh4MTEPtafVnnXlSHHX6dt7oG 5MVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ngKMPtqZ3+NKrGOdJcRqZxMik1ICHZpm3xwyPZ2Xssg=; b=dyIivO23hLAKer50cH+3THWbVH+TJEnVlboY9D/FdoBov5UqBLKXbvrEm8RdeBhK2E WVIzN83xEW6eiMGotHuZndvgfxCIZ+U8dRkAW55n3PDOvtWRJnSxILKOgTSHjhTT92g5 kEZz3TpePpFE9Gc/Xr03H4tpKutnFW5WKJeFfsKU8bKEOXfISu6ax9EEpGpkjsZvt/e/ dy74b0Y9PigkYJeh9YygFZmqKWNT9DQPK4PVwuGeP1sF7yVr0V7wwx/g5cqe42Z5ZbQ2 PPj6Ua2pN9ocNqa7IhXoxhBofVjQ7UtadNvuTBgeaFla11CZYtXiaFUCkslhlWOJTQsd uOWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530RDBGKOlnmiUiMebvLmr0xkI+cd0Yz2+cEF6ZkW2nA1EBObUqR heqHLh8heuF4zcDUW6bTp3Fw2ntv9V7gkCnYCpnbDJ2N X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9V2C2HUY1z9pICGmHBE90kv8QXMGczvZCGl5ShIVotiSSutN1kOYLOoTAWzUj9Cdhdd2UgWrThLw88NjP+dA= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e40b:: with SMTP id u11mr862615iog.123.1597381984072; Thu, 13 Aug 2020 22:13:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Young Lee Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:12:52 +0900 Message-ID: To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb39a305accf79ec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 05:13:06 -0000 --000000000000bb39a305accf79ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes/support 2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 14=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8=88) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 11:38, = Vishnu Pavan Beeram =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends Aug 27th. > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --000000000000bb39a305accf79ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/support

2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 14=EC=9D=BC (=EA=B8= =88) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 11:38, Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E= =91=EC=84=B1:
All,=

This is start of a two week poll on making
dra= ft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document.
Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "n= o/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends Aug 27th.

Thanks,
Pavan and Lou
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= br>
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multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BB_01D6721F.5A015E00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQLhGUue8I8K2vMmmUZWVwfLSPY7jAKKtdUkpw2kfqA= Content-Language: en-gb Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:43:29 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01D6721F.5A015E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, =20 Yes, support.=20 =20 BR, Dan (co-author of draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability) =20 From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram [mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com]=20 Sent: venerd=C3=AC 14 agosto 2020 04:38 To: TEAS WG > Cc: TEAS WG Chairs > Subject: [Teas] WG adoption poll - = draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability =20 All, This is start of a two week poll on making draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends Aug 27th. Thanks, Pavan and Lou ------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01D6721F.5A015E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

 

Yes, support.

 

BR, Dan (co-author of = draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability)

 

From:<= /b> Vishnu = Pavan Beeram [mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com] =
Sent: venerd=C3=AC 14 agosto 2020 04:38
To: TEAS WG = <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: = TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
S= ubject: [Teas] WG adoption poll - = draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

All,

This is start of a two week poll on = making
draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group = document.
Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do not
support". If = indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document. If = yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see = addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends Aug 27th.

Thanks,
Pavan and = Lou

------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01D6721F.5A015E00-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 06:23:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EB93A1106 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:23:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OdnAgcOyKJ70 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D51973A0C21 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw12.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.12]) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B73175F18 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:21:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 6ZeekioVOWYdh6ZeekT63l; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:21:56 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=E4LjW5Vl c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=-tsAPJKn6S7ax0J5AdsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=nt3jZW36AmriUCFCBwmW:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:Cc:To:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WJJ4uvQGY+mghl64c8TX82sWhqnMObegFzF2KeUXEXw=; b=OET1xWSOGJQO5dRNBm6piNSOto SUWEdLtP3TG6agHHQhCgeH3kl/q1LLakS24qQ5s5tUFFWkTL7JPP+bRITz8XWBt1XCPWY84NvaYuA FkBT1Vfw6yub7gvhshbZZlzCf; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=37013 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1k6Zee-003YQW-6g; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:21:56 -0600 To: Jari Arkko , Dhruv Dhody , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Jie Dong , Eric Gray , John E Drake Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:21:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1k6Zee-003YQW-6g X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:37013 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 11 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:23:15 -0000 Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, Lou (and Pavan) From nobody Fri Aug 14 06:24:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A11C3A0C21; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MtekphCIx-2E; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2AC33A1109; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id p18so4571628ilm.7; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:24:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cp8MO/Pe88JRBitxfC92ePl4YWBzwproLyPDkIbXBJ4=; b=tmeQkvFAqWBe2HI2PCzHniEWd90NG4U/HkU23meaxrqksaLDYZ303KVJ9uh1KjgKDN ntYRcXtHZRx6Z4Yg0rS3s+XBxBXPQiekyhtT51iiI6+S8YDUHNgVTqtnd0RNsIUXW9UT Rh/9Q6gUWlJB1KYEa08t4gXMw/ypwPSAyAcKecZlidS0df1njKLCY0AbAw8m3sSYURm6 IqC5tu9aOUOG4VT0JaBNhH2BDKkfPQ4rL0pfT1lC/Mts5/q8O/GyBXVZp1b5amnv1p7E CiaEtoontmq7UgSGy4MlkYjQaMSnclNs5PI9b6H1NBPQnB5D0urO95csIs1fUeTTRwvi KgZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cp8MO/Pe88JRBitxfC92ePl4YWBzwproLyPDkIbXBJ4=; b=GZjHxYHZGg853Z/WcCfQVRu3+NUEzfx1CTxwMYK8eQcXVKJNlL4fdseMp04UszGbna 36hsCTWNuQ0Fsh5fx69hR/cRBN+vOauIyzx1JQpRrOzZEnUpTEp8dApptTDzk/WC8YZu rqaJj1yVRZS4/DCA7lc427KO/A6GWWL0trvY0isM8/SKEQo47z61sGKRoeY2TWC6OzFC L40IOrUqBh17ARukGAsD3HAAuqc0Aj8hB2X2XabPb+NumIrZ1p6+xsk1GjC87rxopwg6 5nAaousldITuJq5RcsJYfXZrLMurpUWwPGqwKnGSSX64BBFhj6cYCyut6fgv9ZnYv/jQ T/mA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531aAKZI69ouKgcoE8nYj2Mey0yLGULV3uoJsOnMLtlC20y8qO4K GeX4aCMCFLWF+lBdCKCBAxCaT6VdPzdoXzKpZD4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyEgsXQtNjIuXE5ANM2PH5sIHBBg+qNEg7IPDqzRoZBnfeheMdhyLtEELLKcUqfRyCoUMAZBUKS3pm5qZAwn1g= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8b51:: with SMTP id i78mr2387873ild.179.1597411482984; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 06:24:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:24:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com, kiranm@futurewei.com, luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com, Jeff Tantsura Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000000e7a905acd658e9" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:24:46 -0000 --00000000000000e7a905acd658e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, Pavan and Lou --00000000000000e7a905acd658e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the prep= aration for=C2=A0polling=C2=A0for WG document=C2=A0adoption:

Are you= aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to draft identified above?

= =C2=A0 Please state either:

=C2=A0 "No, I'm not aware of an= y=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft"
=C2=A0 or
=C2=A0 &qu= ot;Yes, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft"
=
If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2= =A0IPR=C2=A0rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?=

If yes to the above, please state either:

=C2=A0 "Yes, = the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0= rules"
=C2=A0 or
=C2=A0 "No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been= disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional det= ails you think
=C2=A0 appropriate.

If you are listed as a documen= t author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this em= ail regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR.= =C2=A0 This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response= has been received from each author and listed
contributor.=C2=A0 NOTE: = THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS=C2=A0
MESSAGE'S TO = LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are= not listed
as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligatio= ns under
the IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the= IETF if you are
aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of others on an IETF contributio= n, or to refrain from
participating in any contribution or discussion re= lated to your
undisclosed=C2=A0IPR. For more information, please see the= RFCs listed above
and
htt= p://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
<= br>Thank you,
Pavan and Lou
--00000000000000e7a905acd658e9-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 07:26:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 922A83A113D; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:26:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AbWRNr_Q8P4; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM11-BN8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11on2089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.236.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70EAF3A113F; 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Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:25:58 +0000 From: Eric Gray To: Lou Berger , Jari Arkko , Dhruv Dhody , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Jie Dong , John E Drake CC: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 Thread-Index: AQHWcj4VUWD/2CkF+E29k+AXPyZEX6k3qQrQ Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:25:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: labn.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;labn.net; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [73.248.143.71] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5a222fbb-7bf3-4ebe-3783-08d8405df69f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR15MB3248: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:06:40 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d37f9069ffb396f6ce8d74fac42a4bb0; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:06:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:06:39 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Bryskin To: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com, kiranm@futurewei.com, luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com, Jeff Tantsura , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Cc: TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3835_1719372793.1597417599042" X-Mailer: Outlook for iOS and Android Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:06:46 -0000 ------=_Part_3835_1719372793.1597417599042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Igor=20 Get Outlook for Android On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM -0400, "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" wrote: Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for=C2=A0polling=C2=A0for WG document=C2=A0adopt= ion: Are you aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to draft identified above? =C2=A0 Please state either: =C2=A0 "No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft" =C2=A0 or =C2=A0 "Yes, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft" If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2=A0I= PR=C2=A0rules (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: =C2=A0 "Yes, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance with IETF= =C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules" =C2=A0 or =C2=A0 "No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think =C2=A0 appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR.=C2=A0 This document will not advance to the= next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor.=C2=A0 NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS=C2=A0MES= SAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you= are aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain fro= m participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed=C2=A0IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed abov= e and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, Pavan and Lou ------=_Part_3835_1719372793.1597417599042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
N= o, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Igor




On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM -0400, "Vishnu P= avan Beeram" <vishnupavan@gmail.com> wrote:

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the prep= aration for polling for WG document adoption:

Are you= aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above?

=   Please state either:

  "No, I'm not aware of any IP= R that applies to this draft"
  or
  "Yes, I'm aware o= f IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR=  been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RF= Cs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

If yes to the above,= please state either:

  "Yes, the IPR has been disclo= sed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"
  or
  "No= , the IPR has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please= provide any additional details you think
  appropriate.

If = you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
abo= ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
awar= e of any relevant IPR.  This document will not advance to the nex= t
stage until a response has been received from each author and listedcontributor.  NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS <= /div>
MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or att= end WG meetings but are not listed
as an author or contributor, we remin= d you of your obligations under
the IETF IPR rules which encou= rages you to notify the IETF if you are
aware of IPR of others= on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
participating in any contri= bution or discussion related to your
undisclosed IPR. For more info= rmation, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/Intelle= ctualProperty.

Thank you,
Pavan and Lou
------=_Part_3835_1719372793.1597417599042-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 08:08:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9356C3A0CC1; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tyQSudHYQNqs; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F00CF3A0C74; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id t7so7821635otp.0; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:08:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=01c1tjNdoz1+KO9UqqStryC/Ai9RmDE/FXCL05oZMp8=; b=fHujcq94lRHmAB+48PRWFy1WokFxpuvVXOvR/HPh5Lw8Rne0D3t6/QrmAJDdESIc7a hB4cF9rmmicl2J504wwKI+erfAdsY6h7czbj30UHgfXixGrXytTb12+xJ56JkNNgvRMf lv3TVm+bL4nfeYoTUl/Y8qaHpUrPY21ftVBegKwhS2bnxWB9BHjfTeztaEiUPm7K2QWT O/wusp38HpkewLWS6TPREnFoym+MxC115CFDH61UiEwM7U0MwrXe78mSa1g8fboOnJOO UZzpgCuPhX5Q7rdVy0BQ2xth96MfTbIB4btgnHDPf3a4DoChlOPCrUHrrKO0MpKEx7ts bkMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=01c1tjNdoz1+KO9UqqStryC/Ai9RmDE/FXCL05oZMp8=; b=PJ9PLaAD57jAw2Y7TVo7WFtnkLVgfvzFrhwOpHtL2qbwAyhBkO/zzcaVuR1dBgx/VT Jkwim/vLRse15YiTG8qgzBLktav3Tpz/n7f7XPjCwQUs0Ti3N4mSJ1EO3bI2IVjtSW1N uPH0TngFG1ocAI0WawK82SWx7I2lqt1qzSmSaeOUi3N0J85fRCTsXexF6iVuHGhJ/x5/ X5PAXulzzXc0bXpZiLWLLCFhPpuhWOFCOrd9j5hE4H51DqUUpREopdUG67eGD44sf+fb hHplNr2b09AA4p79MEr40H/q2Hq6wGKpXYLN5ACcYD5ztY9ia9rQf878viqnCzIi4RhG RDPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jiTqyKP7fxG1XA6tSk4xAMBDPgse+HNnXP12GXOOoolHhikpH tSW+M1DeueTmpz2ZFaLuYZLIFothyhFJp9qg4f0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy2DsCKly4aMiwUO1H6OYHJuCLP52pXgN2pfz+AjKPK1odKrcVgmAA02snOzMaLL+iKPcYo2IulUjVJ0dCpkEE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:ed0:: with SMTP id 74mr2073018otj.269.1597417713224; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:08:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Aihua Guo Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:08:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005ad07c05acd7cbe0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:08:36 -0000 --0000000000005ad07c05acd7cbe0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes/support. Aihua On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends Aug 27th. > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000005ad07c05acd7cbe0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes/support.

Aihua

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
All= ,

This is start of a two week poll on making
dra= ft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document.
Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "n= o/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends Aug 27th.

Thanks,
Pavan and Lou
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--0000000000005ad07c05acd7cbe0-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 11:55:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C3D3A11D7; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WSoZaTbFnxIy; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1549E3A11D6; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id ha11so4809801pjb.1; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version; bh=mw9BEWzxH6OmRGwcIhfSpqJqbWxRG9nwUhOHHOzdzxc=; b=GSJ6ka5PdErPT1/FqK/wVsmYCHeZOyrspaL4Z+3A9kaXSDiNTZbK+PdojjUGU+nk/q fe0PUIySQOiF82mvoNbweX+Y5+sqS/+mbo09OWARHqq/j7ePMu6bjplPCcHjl1FGV+aZ iKWhtbA2yCgw3ULEYOGf8tvZGTDJ7eRGxvDbRI+kZltLjNLrG/114zy/MsWRUCLuO9wV 3THcL3Cbc+tIhb/Gj6LnJhviZOw1D+whAsCEWuD4F7SQiIqbxeRLyIT3eOn3mMJ4EmIF YDrS9tQz5WJfMiMDZRNUmMuvVaulq3REQM1dI9aYfYPKfDEXxAxgkPUc/bhU/0ink4rr zISQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version; bh=mw9BEWzxH6OmRGwcIhfSpqJqbWxRG9nwUhOHHOzdzxc=; b=F+v/fIsYUgzAjh68mPplf84FQQn97H6cT9C7Nkymh1ucNRM6JwK7iTqtxO13O3ccAB Fvuvc8b6eBhkCPy2V9MuSqCwBTeKsCUBgvxvjo/ng/xor54juHRSH0ujXC4Al+j3TSgZ F75W7xYju8JC7CxAt1W776QtMqTP1Xk4s6DXwU2LNepvxVsGeRjT3wlMY3eFGKlPo+MY oeX8awobHvkPEj4wSNg/ib+ds0r+vDvVQUwfobGe2MkvWbyjh6vHvGBrd4edwTFVS2Ny 2OETkFavuoQxTvlJtTjm6moociXokAyhcG7AV4HpTlW+qBX7UaPHFNVE4k5uEu0YQeGU JBHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+Ab0eDaELE1QsrRC3L+zRblUg+hq4chbpT28SzZ04lMsKtSwf g8m3NzTiDvvIWcxB8KAL8ws= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzlnQezEZdB5woVdEh4IpZ+6N39QmbAQ1JjLLpps8IsxNT5+wh+w8BKq7rLTcy6JYMRTv7qVQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bb81:: with SMTP id v1mr3314767pjr.168.1597431310610; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (c-73-63-232-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.63.232.212]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x136sm9834721pfc.28.2020.08.14.11.55.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:54:59 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "=?utf-8?Q?Rokui=2C_Reza_(Nokia_-_CA/Ottawa)?=" , shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com, kiranm@futurewei.com, luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com, Vishnu Pavan Beeram , Igor Bryskin Cc: TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG Message-ID: <96fc86fc-9de2-4116-b883-621f9548c186@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: X-Readdle-Message-ID: 96fc86fc-9de2-4116-b883-621f9548c186@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5f36de0b_77465f01_1640" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:55:13 -0000 --5f36de0b_77465f01_1640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft Cheers, Jeff On Aug 14, 2020, 8:06 AM -0700, Igor Bryskin , w= rote: > No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. > > Igor > > Get Outlook for Android > > > > > > On =46ri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM -0400, =22Vishnu Pavan Beeram=22 wrote: > > > > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > > > > > As part of the preparation for=C2=A0polling=C2=A0for WG document=C2= =A0adoption: > > > > > > Are you aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to draft identified= above=3F > > > > > > =C2=A0 Please state either: > > > > > > =C2=A0 =22No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to th= is draft=22 > > > =C2=A0 or > > > =C2=A0 =22Yes, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draf= t=22 > > > > > > If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IET= =46=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules > > > (see R=46Cs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)=3F > > > > > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > > > > > =C2=A0 =22Yes, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance w= ith IET=46=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules=22 > > > =C2=A0 or > > > =C2=A0 =22No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been disclosed=22 > > > > > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > > > =C2=A0 appropriate. > > > > > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer= the > > > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you = are > > > aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR.=C2=A0 This document will not advanc= e to the next > > > stage until a response has been received from each author and liste= d > > > contributor.=C2=A0 NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL O=46 YOU LISTED IN THI= S > > > MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > > > > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not l= isted > > > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations unde= r > > > the IET=46=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the I= ET=46 if you are > > > aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of others on an IET=46 contribution, or to r= efrain from > > > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > > > undisclosed=C2=A0IPR. =46or more information, please see the R=46Cs= listed above > > > and > > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualPropert= y. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Pavan and Lou --5f36de0b_77465f01_1640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
No, I'm not aware of any&=23160;IPR&=23160;that app= lies to this draft

Cheers,
Jeff
On Aug 14, 2020, 8:06 AM -0700, Igo= r Bryskin <i=5Fbryskin=40yahoo.com>, wrote:
No, I'm not awa= re of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Igor




On =46ri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM -0400,= =22Vishnu Pavan Beeram=22 <vishnupavan=40gmail.co= m> wrote:

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for&=23160;polling&=23160;for WG document&=231= 60;adoption:

Are you aware of any&=23160;IPR&=23160;that applies to draft identified a= bove=3F

&=23160; Please state either:

&=23160; =22No, I'm not aware of any&=23160;IPR&=23160;that applies to th= is draft=22
&=23160; or
&=23160; =22Yes, I'm aware of&=23160;IPR&=23160;that applies to this draf= t=22

If so, has this&=23160;IPR&=23160;been disclosed in compliance with IET=46= &=23160;IPR&=23160;rules
(see R=46Cs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)=3F

If yes to the above, please state either:

&=23160; =22Yes, the&=23160;IPR&=23160;has been disclosed in compliance w= ith IET=46&=23160;IPR&=23160;rules=22
&=23160; or
&=23160; =22No, the&=23160;IPR&=23160;has not been disclosed=22

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
&=23160; appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant&=23160;IPR.&=23160; This document will not advance = to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor.&=23160; NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL O=46 YOU LISTED IN THIS&=23= 160;
MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed<= br /> as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under
the IET=46&=23160;IPR&=23160;rules which encourages you to notify the IET= =46 if you are
aware of&=23160;IPR&=23160;of others on an IET=46 contribution, or to ref= rain from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
undisclosed&=23160;IPR. =46or more information, please see the R=46Cs lis= ted above
and
http://trac.to= ols.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
Pavan and Lou
--5f36de0b_77465f01_1640-- From nobody Fri Aug 14 14:42:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63F03A0B5A; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14K7owNf3Fuu; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 14:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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ASZ6sSsz6m1f0WaBKhfkWYTRX9qUmWPQH3BzZNTa9koAEjwf0J1DpTnEteNEUXaes5Cz t2/xYQuuO+EObCZM7taBEt6QX1UU8JfejXZ1YWCvu4Ovw7WM/nIEYBg/wDwb9K4rznYv Ewtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531L6jJBMHApBET1HuukE+Xr3YL1alYI2la9axueCspNrH8Rejyb WXLp+GD3w+jsSjca5CyFkxMazmM5f9ds/N4eiAg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwc47eW7UI77pWqgQawl2dK4n7PmdN7ktxbl1t9vXrCITphKJ72KPTelWW0g4uayh5VYI81LgMst1PUUJcyTCI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:220f:: with SMTP id n15mr4339675ion.103.1597454891247; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 18:28:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: Xufeng Liu Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 21:28:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric Gray Cc: Lou Berger , Jari Arkko , Dhruv Dhody , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Jie Dong , John E Drake , TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000566e3605ace07319" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 01:28:14 -0000 --000000000000566e3605ace07319 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Thanks, - Xufeng On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:26 AM Eric Gray wrote: > I am not aware of any relevant IPR related to this draft. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger > Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 9:22 AM > To: Jari Arkko ; Dhruv Dhody ; > Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; Xufeng Liu < > xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>; Jie Dong ; Eric Gray < > eric.gray@ericsson.com>; John E Drake > Cc: TEAS WG ; TEAS WG Chairs > Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 > Importance: High > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see > RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO > LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the > IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of > IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in > any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more > information, please see the RFCs listed above and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > > Lou (and Pavan) > --000000000000566e3605ace07319 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this= draft.
Thanks,
- Xufeng

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020= at 10:26 AM Eric Gray <eric.g= ray@ericsson.com> wrote:
I am not aware of any relevant IPR related to this draft.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger <= lberger@labn.net>
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 9:22 AM
To: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>; Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>; Rokui, Reza (N= okia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>; Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>; Ji= e Dong <jie.don= g@huawei.com>; Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>; John E Drake <jdrake@juniper.net&g= t;
Cc: TEAS WG <teas@iet= f.org>; TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04
Importance: High

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption:

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please state either:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this dr= aft"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft&quo= t;

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R= FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

If yes to the above, please state either:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF = IPR rules"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the abo= ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware o= f any relevant IPR.=C2=A0 This document will not advance to the next stage = until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor.= =C2=A0 NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LIN= ES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as= an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF= IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR = of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any = contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more inform= ation, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualPro= perty.

Thank you,

Lou (and Pavan)
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X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iIqdcGoNMMEOmmkukI35HEZWr0MZdLHa4kbZ+Efk3jp8HtFVh p3FRNAR3yYkxxemns1nUjtjUIb3Z+3CZ70N85z0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz2ho1zWXJvkIzpk4BLG1dU0D79tnYNDZ3jaIqk5VuXtMjBPWPIrFTbNSlc8Y6aGb0qVbZRZR2MhD8k3VThsBM= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:e002:: with SMTP id z2mr4822970iog.178.1597471000352; Fri, 14 Aug 2020 22:56:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:26:04 +0530 Message-ID: To: Lou Berger Cc: Jari Arkko , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Jie Dong , Eric Gray , John E Drake , TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 05:56:46 -0000 Hi Lou, "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Thanks! Dhruv On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:51 PM Lou Berger wrote: > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS > MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > > Lou (and Pavan) From nobody Sun Aug 16 05:19:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63853A0BDF; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 05:19:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuUnNXaxKk1X; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 05:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de (mail.hs-esslingen.de [134.108.32.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8230A3A0BDD; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 05:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9021E25A12; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:19:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=hs-esslingen.de; s=mail; t=1597580344; bh=Bwy/l0eHDJzj7jLVaJ3aV38whZJC56AINwYh7HTD+TY=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=uFbGKs8CQSq22JciWJl6/EIcpT0M0hvUl1HB6QFGM2YeS0jomxzLa7glH2XDGrPF2 g0miz4e3e/hemh/rG73ID5gIXIc6Pb15x6xNy3vHGxLZOzN/DzYvvWR6qf6fc4AxJd S/xARajycQHlWDJRL04MCl7zVVAidAAEsNdZXHFs= X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.7.1 (20120429) (Debian) at hs-esslingen.de Received: from mail.hs-esslingen.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (hs-esslingen.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0rhaDxDOgned; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:19:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de (rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de [134.108.29.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hs-esslingen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:19:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RZNT8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([169.254.3.171]) by rznt8102.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de ([fe80::f977:d5e6:6b09:56ac%10]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:19:03 +0200 From: "Scharf, Michael" To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG CC: TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability Thread-Index: AQHWceQJP7Q/Ow4sQkyDihVu6cCdoak6bxWg Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:19:02 +0000 Message-ID: <6EC6417807D9754DA64F3087E2E2E03E2DD11892@rznt8114.rznt.rzdir.fht-esslingen.de> References: In-Reply-To: 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Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:32:36 -0000 --0000000000001475b205ad07e856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Regards, Shunsuke 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C=9F) 10:57 Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA= /Ottawa) : > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > > > > Reza > > > > > > *From: *Vishnu Pavan Beeram > *Date: *Friday, August 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM > *To: *Reza Rokui , "shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com" = < > shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>, "kiranm@futurewei.com" < > kiranm@futurewei.com>, "luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com" < > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>, Jeff Tantsura < > jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> > *Cc: *TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs > *Subject: *Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 > > > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS > > MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000001475b205ad07e856 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,


"No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that ap= plies to this draft"

Regards,


Shunsuke


2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C= =9F) 10:57 Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>:

"No, I'm not aware of = any IPR that applies to this draft"

=C2=A0

Reza

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = Vishnu Pavan Beeram &= lt;vishnupavan@g= mail.com>
Date: Friday, August 14, 2020 at 9:24 AM
To: Reza Rokui <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, "shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com"= ; <sh= unsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>, "kiranm@futurewei.com" <kiranm@futurewei.com>, &= quot;luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com" <l= uismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.= ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: TEAS WG <t= eas@ietf.org>, TEAS WG Chairs <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= -03

=C2=A0

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for=C2=A0polling=C2=A0for WG document=C2=A0adopt= ion:

Are you aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to draft identified above?<= br>
=C2=A0 Please state either:

=C2=A0 "No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to thi= s draft"
=C2=A0 or
=C2=A0 "Yes, I'm aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that applies to this draft= "

If so, has this=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0been disclosed in compliance with IETF=C2=A0I= PR=C2=A0rules
(see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?

If yes to the above, please state either:

=C2=A0 "Yes, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has been disclosed in compliance with I= ETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules"
=C2=A0 or
=C2=A0 "No, the=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
=C2=A0 appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant=C2=A0IPR.=C2=A0 This document will not advance to the= next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor.=C2=A0 NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS=C2=A0=

MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under
the IETF=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you= are
aware of=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain fro= m
participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
undisclosed=C2=A0IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed abov= e
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/Int= ellectualProperty.

Thank you,

Pavan and Lou

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--0000000000001475b205ad07e856-- From nobody Sun Aug 16 17:33:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139653A12A2; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TwA7oeuSNxHw; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1CEB3A12A4; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id r13so8673796iln.0; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:33:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GC4iwAqJloFfrotKO4zDZAw+NoLBBQcp3iQ6766DYx0=; b=DtjBT9LGvC+6Qv6n4/9kyUhR+KCWgLlWBnztDuVAkCSp+FOCBr0XETJcKm+8sxkRd0 KXifY/2iL4WwFg2HpWklfsbS2VEa8Ew0tXknIbKIXl2lmbBKb7OrIrNQli1Pit3IGqBD cxq6WpfzHt8/kP4kxaqZF5YwFx4bY4U2M7gj8CFPJ+kqAd2V8b2ffdmeqHaKYapMdQz0 /VkdH+QrE+7VEfB53va0RHdz0AVRD+PXo/50U/KESKw94OobHAKB8ARzNz3u8yk5l7fc VPvoGN8PDtTLlzkPAbrzew/wLMlnxYVPRpQ/Xs74V5P1qMEhagagFptL05iKVsOck/Gm rjLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GC4iwAqJloFfrotKO4zDZAw+NoLBBQcp3iQ6766DYx0=; b=BzNakBw5JaTlD3eG6b6OxfBXNOiMq7HKXSaEXLviuHWnwXA11rILDNXtTLnrq7oXpC 51ADOpL2Dow3aZbghOngNW8TvUL63lQiBDqB3j727Q3AVeYBjh43d7yjHf1XHUS5mR/A 5EuJXDpdzANaMQ01A7PHgtF4vCgmKQ6GZuhyA7rF7ezXTZYsD3WZU4RhyGQb1mnjsg41 53sDPHb87S7ZBrzJB1fla6XTSoD89jEsFLluoLTz/wM7GBvE2MlHxMvp9QBOQK95V4lu 6seTg5Xbb+LSBtj5SXZ/A3gIxiZpoqgCCoaZtSymfpwg5oUkM61ZsWIhCmVzqPiOFUas uJqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531333uOripA2V6CiJp+oGLcM6PAwEipq/OInyYmMnICjTmBSMJp Bk5PcTVw1dTt+jGHfVYM7wv+dnRYRj0Al+3GbN0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYfjaUObnyeSq+CJ4DoRmjVXfTqMzHCYDXUh2ePJzPIveWog3/38bBDfAUbSFQW64/nl2YmN1bWiRdjD/qQLk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:42:: with SMTP id i2mr11033907ilr.184.1597624419054; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:33:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: From: Shunsuke Homma Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:33:28 +0900 Message-ID: To: Dhruv Dhody Cc: Lou Berger , Jie Dong , Xufeng Liu , John E Drake , TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG , Jari Arkko , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Eric Gray Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb77db05ad07eb39" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:33:42 -0000 --000000000000fb77db05ad07eb39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Regards, Shunsuke 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C=9F) 14:56 Dhruv Dhody : > Hi Lou, > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:51 PM Lou Berger wrote: > > > > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > > > As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: > > > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? > > > > Please state either: > > > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > > or > > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > > (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? > > > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > > or > > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > > appropriate. > > > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS > > MESSAGE'S TO LINES. > > > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not liste= d > > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > > and > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Lou (and Pavan) > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --000000000000fb77db05ad07eb39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,


"No, I'm not aware of any=C2=A0IPR=C2=A0that ap= plies to this draft"

Regards,


Shunsuke


2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5(=E5=9C= =9F) 14:56 Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ie= tf@gmail.com>:
Hi Lou,

=C2=A0"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft&quo= t;

Thanks!
Dhruv

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 6:51 PM Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
>
> Authors, Contributors, WG,
>
> As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption:
>
> Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please state either:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to th= is draft"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draf= t"
>
> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)?
>
> If yes to the above, please state either:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with = IETF IPR rules"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"
>
> If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate.
>
> If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer th= e
> above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are=
> aware of any relevant IPR.=C2=A0 This document will not advance to the= next
> stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor.=C2=A0 NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS
> MESSAGE'S TO LINES.
>
> If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not list= ed
> as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are<= br> > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
> participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
> undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed abov= e
> and
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/= group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lou (and Pavan)

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--000000000000fb77db05ad07eb39-- From nobody Sun Aug 16 19:28:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFF23A12F2; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:28:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sosINxUf_1Zq; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3C4B3A12F1; Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 43F0DB326E58CBCDDD20; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 03:28:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 03:28:41 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:28:31 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:28:31 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: Lou Berger , Jari Arkko , "Dhruv Dhody" , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Eric Gray , John E Drake CC: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 Thread-Index: AQHWcj3yb9n6zTT190yl/g9LQ3/AtKk7luug Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:28:31 +0000 Message-ID: <6faf65405fb94b52b80a768c03ecf01c@huawei.com> References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.195.241] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 02:28:46 -0000 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(2603:10a6:20b:61::25) by AM6PR07MB5365.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:6f::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3305.10; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:05:27 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5222.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6d04:3a51:ec0d:9890]) by AM6PR07MB5222.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6d04:3a51:ec0d:9890%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3305.021; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:05:27 +0000 From: "Belotti, Sergio (Nokia - IT/Vimercate)" To: Lou Berger , Jari Arkko , Dhruv Dhody , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Jie Dong , Eric Gray , John E Drake CC: TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 Thread-Index: AQHWcj4iYp/YLLeqwEiTeCalyTShDak75QSg Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <7603d242-a67b-7d68-bfeb-8da70b9b9c88@labn.net> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: en-US 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e1595ea8-1e04-4fb7-76bf-08d8427beba1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Aug 2020 07:05:27.3933 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FuVG5sEZ0yO5Njfhdlgn+NqJF4YgHjFTzxNWSnDY/hwDyp56553RARnVe3wTvSrBRCIZ5MmcliK9cp/dDuC0S+oYN0gdRiRXIO1YDMXUaJM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB5365 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:05:42 -0000 Hi all, "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" Thanks Sergio -----Original Message----- From: Teas On Behalf Of Lou Berger Sent: Friday, August 14, 2020 3:22 PM To: Jari Arkko ; Dhruv Dhody ; = Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; Xufeng Liu ; Jie Dong ; Eric Gray ; John E Drake Cc: TEAS WG Chairs ; TEAS WG Subject: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see R= FCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the abo= ve by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware o= f any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until= a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOT= E: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as= an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF= IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR = of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any = contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more inform= ation, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/grou= p/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, Lou (and Pavan) _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Mon Aug 17 00:10:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4BF3A13D4; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 00:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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definitions=main-2008170091 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 12:06:16 -0000 Ik5vLCBJJ20gbm90IGF3YXJlIG9mIGFueSBJUFIgdGhhdCBhcHBsaWVzIHRvIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQi DQoNCllvdXJzIElycmVzcGVjdGl2ZWx5LA0KDQpKb2huDQoNCg0KSnVuaXBlciBCdXNpbmVzcyBV c2UgT25seQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IExvdSBCZXJn ZXIgPGxiZXJnZXJAbGFibi5uZXQ+DQo+IFNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgQXVndXN0IDE0LCAyMDIwIDk6 MjIgQU0NCj4gVG86IEphcmkgQXJra28gPGphcmkuYXJra29AcGl1aGEubmV0PjsgRGhydXYgRGhv ZHkgPGRocnV2LmlldGZAZ21haWwuY29tPjsNCj4gUm9rdWksIFJlemEgKE5va2lhIC0gQ0EvT3R0 YXdhKSA8cmV6YS5yb2t1aUBub2tpYS5jb20+OyBYdWZlbmcgTGl1DQo+IDx4dWZlbmcubGl1Lmll 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ZCBXRyBtZWV0aW5ncyBidXQgYXJlIG5vdCBsaXN0ZWQgYXMgYW4NCj4gYXV0aG9yIG9yIGNvbnRy aWJ1dG9yLCB3ZSByZW1pbmQgeW91IG9mIHlvdXIgb2JsaWdhdGlvbnMgdW5kZXIgdGhlIElFVEYg SVBSDQo+IHJ1bGVzIHdoaWNoIGVuY291cmFnZXMgeW91IHRvIG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgSUVURiBpZiB5 b3UgYXJlIGF3YXJlIG9mIElQUiBvZiBvdGhlcnMNCj4gb24gYW4gSUVURiBjb250cmlidXRpb24s IG9yIHRvIHJlZnJhaW4gZnJvbSBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIGluIGFueSBjb250cmlidXRpb24gb3IN Cj4gZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiByZWxhdGVkIHRvIHlvdXIgdW5kaXNjbG9zZWQgSVBSLiBGb3IgbW9yZSBp bmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgcGxlYXNlIHNlZSB0aGUNCj4gUkZDcyBsaXN0ZWQgYWJvdmUgYW5kDQo+IGh0 dHBzOi8vdXJsZGVmZW5zZS5jb20vdjMvX19odHRwOi8vdHJhYy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9ncm91 cC9pZXNnL3RyYWMvd2lraS9JbnQNCj4gZWxsZWN0dWFsUHJvcGVydHlfXzshIU5FdDZ5TWFPLWdr IVRxX25BSUNkNDRpcFZ6T1kzRC0NCj4geXBTdUFhSWdiNGlPY3huZjdOR0tKQXF0OE0zMDhrSmZ5 MW14djQzeTBOaFEkIC4NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rIHlvdSwNCj4gDQo+IExvdSAoYW5kIFBhdmFuKQ0K From nobody Mon Aug 17 05:41:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CC73A1518; Mon, 17 Aug 2020 05:41:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159766806169.12564.3196183076402181227@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 05:41:01 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] The TEAS WG has placed draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition in state "Candidate for WG Adoption" X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 12:41:02 -0000 The TEAS WG has placed draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition in state Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Vishnu Beeram) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition/ Comment: IPR Responses (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/psX2eyX7xA-Gu9Hk2MsDembBtWo/): "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/lArrlNIql2asvkwYdQnczAfoBsk/ shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ZWLr9OMYZHS3uZ0OJS0usfCi4A0/ kiranm@futurewei.com https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/CmzJKmYyY7Pk68VbGp21sC1RJeI/ luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/Pf7S-3izDthOYIm1p3LyuCbzBKM/ Jeff Tantsura https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/QSAyD0Z-XjGQhT6armnnKpNo8sI/ From nobody Tue Aug 18 06:17:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D833A09CE; Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO 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([2601:85:4680:3329:3de7:d32e:fabf:7c8f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x5sm26066215qtp.76.2020.08.19.06.04.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Aug 2020 06:04:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Gray Message-Id: <095D6C02-7DAA-4C11-B0CB-DD960A733133@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E1400D1F-C402-401C-B0A8-F4EAD3C78247" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com, Kiran Makhijani , luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com, Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:04:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E1400D1F-C402-401C-B0A8-F4EAD3C78247 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft > On Aug 14, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram = wrote: >=20 > No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft --Apple-Mail=_E1400D1F-C402-401C-B0A8-F4EAD3C78247 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii No, = I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft

On Aug 14, 2020, at 9:24 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com> wrote:

No, I'm not aware of = any IPR that applies to this = draft

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([2601:85:4680:3329:3de7:d32e:fabf:7c8f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z67sm24880896qkb.27.2020.08.19.07.37.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Gray Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_99AE4440-DA6D-4A53-BA7A-457D4726B5CB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:37:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Joel Halpern Direct , "teas@ietf.org" To: Kiran Makhijani References: <159460858327.31249.6774312592426516405@ietfa.amsl.com> <8757A5BE-BD59-4B9C-A5E9-0DC4A4D74D87@nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:37:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_99AE4440-DA6D-4A53-BA7A-457D4726B5CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Kiran. Your proposed text misses a few important points. On the topic of =E2=80=9CSBI" 1) As mentioned multiple times, =E2=80=9CSBI=E2=80=9D is a logical = concept that may or may not exist in any instance of TSC interactions. 2) As such, it is incorrect to assert that the TSC =E2=80=9Cwill send = the request via its SBI =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D 3) In fact, a more accurate (and less restrictive) wording would be = along the lines of =E2=80=9CWhen a TSC receives a request via its NBI, = it needs to map the NBI-provided information in the request to one or = more transport slice realization instances, using - for example - some = form of SBI.=E2=80=9D On the topic of whether or not we need to include =E2=80=9CTSRE" 4) TSRE is a concept that - as discussed so far - is not visible to the = Transport Slice consumer. 5) As I have so far understood the concept, TSE and TSRE are not = interchangeable (were they actually interchangeable, we should only = define and use one of these terms) - hence it is not clear how it is = even possible to refer to a TSE as a TSRE, let alone imagine why it = would be =E2=80=9Cnecessary.=E2=80=9D Note that - if the distinction between TSE and TSRE arises from the = possibility that transport slice service termination points may exist = either on consumer nodes, or on provider nodes - then this is something = that would likely be visible to the slice consumer. But - if that is = the case - that has not been clear in ongoing discussions and is not = AFAIK explicitly stated in the draft. =E2=80=94 Eric > On Aug 12, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Kiran Makhijani = wrote: >=20 > Eric: > In my mind, the scope at least for definitions is to identify = components that help describe the transport slices concept and hopefully = normalize the terms in context. It helps someone reading this document = for the first time. I agree that NBI and upper layers will not see this = mapping. On the other hand, framework and SBI when extended may use it. > We could balance clarity vs concerns raised by augmenting the text as = below. What do you think? > =20 > TSEs will get mapped to the endpoints that are allocated and > assigned by the network controller during the realization of a > transport slice and are technology-specific, i.e. they depend on = the > network technology used during the transport slice realization. = They > are identified by a node and some associated data. They may be = referred to as > TSREs when necessary. A non-exhaustive > list of nodes containing TSREs are routers, switches, PON nodes, > Wireless nodes and Optical devices. > =20 > When TSC receives a request via its NBI to create a transport slice = between > multiple TSEs, it will send the request via its SBI to realize the = transport slice.=20 > The TSRE will be notified by network controller during TS = realization to enable > mapping between TSREs and the TSEs. > =20 > =20 > Thanks > Kiran > =20 > From: Teas On Behalf Of Eric Gray > Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 6:46 AM > To: Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) > Cc: Joel Halpern Direct ; teas@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > =20 > Reza, > =20 > On the topic of continued inclusion of TSRE. > =20 > You are inappropriately assuming that we will _ever_ be = undertaking standards work that details the much of the internals of the = transport slice controller. > =20 > I did not object to including some text on the topic of a = South-Bound Interface (SBI) - even though this is also out of scope in = our work (being again a part of the logical model for interactions = between the TSC and =E2=80=9Cstuff=E2=80=9D underlying it) - because of = the argument that it is useful to think of an SBI in order to allow = examples to be made for using various technology specific service = models. > =20 > This is legitimate, because the use of such examples = suggests some similar work on technology-specific service models that = might be useful for support some possible TSC implementations. > =20 > But Joel makes a very good point in saying that TSRE is = out of scope in this draft. Also, Joel earlier made the point that = including out-of-scope concepts strictly intended for use in future work = is misguided. > =20 > For our purposes, it would be more useful to limit = ourselves to a simpler set of definitions that do not include additional = and out-of-scope confusing concepts. > =20 > Finally, your stance on whether or not to remove this = concept should be based on TEAS working group consensus to continue to = include it - rather than your personal inclinations to do so. This = draft was - after all - suggested for adoption by the working group, and = subsequent changes will therefore be under the change control of the = TEAS WG. > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Aug 10, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = > wrote: > =20 > Joel > Please see inline. > =20 > Cheers, > Reza > =20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2020-08-06, 11:17 AM, "Joel Halpern Direct" = > wrote: > =20 > Thank you for commenting the the TSRE question. > Let me reprase my question, given the comments... > =20 > Given that TSRE is strictly technology and infrastructure = specific, why > is it defined in this document? Whether we need it or not it = seems to > be outside the scope of this document. > [Reza] Since the transport slice definition draft addresses various = aspects of the transport slice such transport slice realization were = introduced and a result the TRSE was mentioned briefly to allow later = drafts to discuss it in details. > Same is for example for =E2=80=9CTransport Slice Controller (TSC)=E2=80=9D= . This document introduced the TSC concept and again later draft can = give more details. > =20 > =20 > Yours, > Joel > =20 > On 8/6/2020 11:12 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) wrote: > > Thanks Joel for your comments. > >=20 > > Please see inline for TSRE. > >=20 > > Reza > >=20 > > On 2020-07-12, 11:59 PM, "Teas on behalf of Joel Halpern" > > on behalf = of jmh@joelhalpern.com > wrote: > >=20 > > My thanks to the design team for the update to this = document. It is > >=20 > > much improved. > >=20 > > I a unable to understand the third paragraph of section = 4.1.2. I do > >=20 > > not know what maximum occupancy refers to. It seems to be = talking > > about > >=20 > > some kind of notion of objectives applying to subsets of = traffic > > within > >=20 > > a slice. But I can't tell. > >=20 > > Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears = to be > > trying > >=20 > > to be informative rather than normative. However, the last > > paragraph of > >=20 > > introduces things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that = are not > >=20 > > described in the rest of the document, and do not actually = seem to > > me to > >=20 > > be appropriate. I wowuld ask that the last paragraph of = section > > A.1 be > >=20 > > stricken. > >=20 > > Some minor comments: > >=20 > > At one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as = the contract > >=20 > > 5that describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing = them. Then > >=20 > > in section 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA". = Believe > > you > >=20 > > mean "form the objective portion of the SLA" or = "contribute to the > > SLA" > >=20 > > or something, since the contractual and consequence aspects = of the SLA > >=20 > > are outside of the SLOs? > >=20 > > Given that availability is defined in terms of the other = SLOs (quite > >=20 > > reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly = measurable), it > >=20 > > seems that availability should itself be considered = indirectly > > measurable? > >=20 > > nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an = initial > >=20 > > list, there is no need to include a bullet in the aspects = that says > >=20 > > "Other objectives could be specified". It is true. But = has already > >=20 > > been stated above. > >=20 > > In section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text = seems to say > >=20 > > that an endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, = P2MP, ....). > >=20 > > It seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both = P2P and > > P2MP > >=20 > > communication. It seems rather odd to have to consider it = to be two > >=20 > > TSEs. =46rom later text, it is the slice, not the = endpoint, which as a > >=20 > > particular connectivity type. > >=20 > > I wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is = useful?=20 > > Given > >=20 > > that many things are in both the sample TSE list and the = sample TSRE > >=20 > > list, it is going to be hard to tell them apart. And as = far as I can > >=20 > > tell, the TSRE is internal to the transport, and therefore = outside the > >=20 > > scope of this document? The differentiation in the diagram = that > > follows > >=20 > > the description does not seem to line up with the = description, and > >=20 > > leaves me more confused. > >=20 > > [Reza] > >=20 > > As mentioned in draft, Transport slice realization endpoints = (TSRE) are > > allocated and > >=20 > > assigned by the network controller during the realization of a > > transport slice and are technology-specific, i.e. they depend = on the > >=20 > > network technology used during the transport slice realization. > >=20 > > Depends on the definition of the transport slice, Transport = Slice > > endpoints (TSE) and TSRE might be very similar but their object = models > > are different. > >=20 > > Please also see the following draft which addresses the modeling = of the > > transport slice realization: > >=20 > > * draft-liu-teas-transport-network-slice-yang-01 > >=20 > > In summary, TRSE are assigned during the transport slice = realization and > > will be communicated from TSC NBI to higher system =E2=80=9CTransp= ort slice > > Customer=E2=80=9D and identifies how a transport slice is = realized in the network. > >=20 > > We will add more clarification to the draft. > >=20 > > Yours, > >=20 > > Joel > >=20 > > On 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org = wrote: > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line > > Internet-Drafts directories. > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Title : IETF Definition of Transport = Slice > >=20 > > > Authors : Reza Rokui > >=20 > > > Shunsuke Homma > >=20 > > > Kiran Makhijani > >=20 > > > Luis M. Contreras > >=20 > > > Jeff Tantsura > >=20 > > > Filename : > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt > >=20 > > > Pages : 21 > >=20 > > > Date : 2020-07-12 > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Abstract: > >=20 > > > This document describes the definition of a slice in = the > > transport > >=20 > > > networks and its characteristics. The purpose here = is to bring > >=20 > > > clarity and a common understanding of the transport = slice > > concept and > >=20 > > > describe related terms and their meaning. It = explains how > > transport > >=20 > > > slices can be used in combination with end to end = network > > slices, or > >=20 > > > independently. > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n/ = > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 = > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition-03 = > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > >=20 > > >=20 > > = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini= tion-03 = > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of > > submission > >=20 > > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org = . > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >=20 > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ = > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > >=20 > > > I-D-Announce mailing list > >=20 > > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >=20 > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce = > >=20 > > > Internet-Draft directories: = http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html = > >=20 > > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt = > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > >=20 > > Teas mailing list > >=20 > > Teas@ietf.org > >=20 > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas = > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas = --Apple-Mail=_99AE4440-DA6D-4A53-BA7A-457D4726B5CB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Kiran.

Your proposed = text misses a few important points.

On = the topic of =E2=80=9CSBI"
1) As mentioned = multiple times, =E2=80=9CSBI=E2=80=9D is a logical concept that may or = may not exist in any instance of TSC interactions.
2)= As such, it is incorrect to assert that the TSC =E2=80=9Cwill send the = request via its SBI =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
3) In fact, = a more accurate (and less restrictive) wording would be along the lines = of =E2=80=9CWhen a TSC receives a request via its NBI, it needs to map = the NBI-provided information in the request to one or more transport = slice realization instances, using - for example - some form of = SBI.=E2=80=9D

= On the topic of whether or not we = need to include =E2=80=9CTSRE"
4) TSRE is a = concept that - as discussed so far - is not visible to the Transport = Slice consumer.
5) As I have so far understood the = concept, TSE and TSRE are not = interchangeable (were they actually interchangeable, we should only = define and use one of these terms) - hence it is not clear how it = is even possible to refer to a TSE as a TSRE, let alone imagine why it = would be =E2=80=9Cnecessary.=E2=80=9D

Note that - if the distinction between = TSE and TSRE arises from the possibility that transport slice service = termination points may exist either on consumer nodes, or on provider = nodes - then this is something that would likely be visible to the slice = consumer.  But - if that is the case - that has not been clear in = ongoing discussions and is not AFAIK explicitly stated in the = draft.

=E2=80=94
Eric



On Aug = 12, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com> wrote:

Eric:
In my mind, the scope at = least for definitions is to identify components that help describe the = transport slices concept and hopefully normalize the terms in context. = It helps someone reading this document for the first time. I agree that = NBI and upper layers will not see this mapping. On the other hand, = framework and SBI when extended may use it.
We could balance clarity = vs concerns raised by augmenting the text as below. What do you = think?
 
   = TSEs will get mapped to the endpoints that are allocated and
   assigned by the network controller during the = realization of a
   transport slice and are technology-specific, = i.e. they depend on the
   network technology = used during the transport slice realization.  They
   are identified by a node and some associated = data. They may be referred to as
   TSREs when = necessary. A non-exhaustive
   list of nodes = containing TSREs are routers, switches, PON nodes,
   Wireless nodes and Optical devices.
  
   When TSC receives = a request via its NBI to create a transport slice between
   multiple TSEs, it will send the request via = its SBI to realize the transport slice. 
   The TSRE will be notified by network = controller during TS realization to enable
   mapping between TSREs and the TSEs.
 
 
Thanks
Kiran
 
From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Eric Gray
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 = 6:46 AM
To: Rokui, Reza (Nokia - = CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>
Cc: Joel = Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; teas@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Teas] I-D Action: = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
 
Reza,
 
        &= nbsp;    On the topic of = continued inclusion of TSRE.
 
        &= nbsp;    You are = inappropriately assuming that we will _ever_ be undertaking standards = work that details the much of the internals of the transport slice = controller.
 
        &= nbsp;    I did not object to = including some text on the topic of a South-Bound Interface (SBI) - even = though this is also out of scope in our work (being again a part of the = logical model for interactions between the TSC and =E2=80=9Cstuff=E2=80=9D= underlying it) - because of the argument that it is useful to think of = an SBI in order to allow examples to be made for using various = technology specific service models.
 
        &= nbsp;    This is legitimate, = because the use of such examples suggests some similar work on = technology-specific service models that might be useful for support some = possible TSC implementations.
 
        &= nbsp;    But Joel makes a = very good point in saying that TSRE is out of scope in this draft. =  Also, Joel earlier made the point that including out-of-scope = concepts strictly intended for use in future work is misguided.
 
        &= nbsp;    For our purposes, it = would be more useful to limit ourselves to a simpler set of definitions = that do not include additional and out-of-scope confusing concepts.
 
        &= nbsp;    Finally, your stance = on whether or not to remove this concept should be based on TEAS working = group consensus to continue to include it - rather than your personal = inclinations to do so.  This draft was - after all - suggested for = adoption by the working group, and subsequent changes will therefore be = under the change control of the TEAS WG.
 
 


On = Aug 10, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com> = wrote:
 
Joel
Please see inline.
 
Cheers,
Reza
 
=EF=BB=BFOn= 2020-08-06, 11:17 AM, "Joel Halpern Direct" <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:
 
    Thank you for = commenting the the TSRE question.
    Let me reprase my = question, given the comments...
 
    Given that TSRE is strictly technology and = infrastructure specific, why
    is it defined = in this document?  Whether we need it or not it seems to
    be outside the scope of this = document.
[Reza] Since the transport slice definition draft addresses = various aspects of the transport slice such transport slice realization = were introduced and a result the TRSE was mentioned briefly to allow = later drafts to discuss it in details.
Same is for example for = =E2=80=9CTransport Slice Controller (TSC)=E2=80=9D. This document = introduced the TSC concept and again later draft can give more = details.
 
 
    Yours,
    Joel
 
    On 8/6/2020 11:12 AM, Rokui, Reza (Nokia - = CA/Ottawa) wrote:
    > Thanks Joel for your = comments.
    > 
    > Please see inline for TSRE.
    > 
    > Reza
    > 
    > On 2020-07-12, 11:59 PM, "Teas = on behalf of Joel Halpern"
    > <teas-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of jmh@joelhalpern.com> = wrote:
    > 
    >      My = thanks to the design team for the update to this document.  It = is
    > 
    >      = much improved.
    > 
    >      I = a  unable to understand the third paragraph of section 4.1.2.  = I do
    > 
    >      = not know what maximum occupancy refers to.  It seems to be = talking
    > about
    > 
    >      = some kind of notion of objectives applying to subsets of traffic
    > within
    > 
    >      a = slice.  But I can't tell.
    > 
    >      = Appendix A.1 is labeled as discussion, and as such appears to be
    > trying
    > 
    >      to = be informative rather than normative.  However, the last
    > paragraph of
    > 
    >      = introduces things a customer may ask for (i.e. SLOs) that are not
    > 
    >      = described in the rest of the document, and do not actually seem to
    > me to
    > 
    >      be = appropriate.  I wowuld ask that the last paragraph of section
    > A.1 be
    > 
    >      = stricken.
    > 
    >     =  Some minor comments:
    > 
    >      At = one point the SLA is defined (I believe reasonably)as the contract
    > 
    >      = 5that describes the SLOs with the consequences for missing them.  = Then
    > 
    >      in = section 4.1 it says "all SLOs combine to form the SLA".  = Believe
    > you
    > 
    >      = mean "form the objective portion of the SLA"  or "contribute to = the
    > SLA"
    > 
    >      or = something, since the contractual and consequence aspects of the SLA
    > 
    >      = are outside of the SLOs?
    > 
    >      = Given that availability is defined in terms of the other SLOs (quite
    > 
    >      = reasonable) and that some of those may not be directly measurable), = it
    > 
    >      = seems that availability should itself be considered indirectly
    > measurable?
    > 
    >      = nit - Given that the earlier text says that this is only an initial
    > 
    >      = list, there is no need to include a bullet in the aspects that says
    > 
    >      = "Other objectives could be specified".  It is true.  But has = already
    > 
    >      = been stated above.
    > 
    >      In = section 4.2 on transport service endpoints, the text seems to say
    > 
    >      = that an endpoint has a specific kind of connectivity (P2P, P2MP, = ....).
    > 
    >      It = seems perfectly valid for a single TSE to be using both P2P and
    > P2MP
    > 
    >      = communication.  It seems rather odd to have to consider it to be = two
    > 
    >      = TSEs.  =46rom later text, it is the slice, not the endpoint, which = as a
    > 
    >      = particular connectivity type.
    > 
    >      I = wonder if the "Transport Slice Realization endpoint" is = useful? 
    > Given
    > 
    >      = that many things are in both the sample TSE list and the sample TSRE
    > 
    >      = list, it is going to be hard to tell them apart.  And as far as I = can
    > 
    >      = tell, the TSRE is internal to the transport, and therefore outside = the
    > 
    >      = scope of this document?  The differentiation in the diagram = that
    > follows
    > 
    >      = the description does not seem to line up with the description, and
    > 
    >      = leaves me more confused.
    > 
    > [Reza]
    > 
    > As mentioned in draft, Transport = slice realization endpoints (TSRE) are
    > allocated and
    > 
    > assigned by the network = controller during the realization of a
    >   transport slice and = are technology-specific, i.e. they depend on the
    > 
    > network technology used during = the transport slice realization.
    > 
    > Depends on the definition of the = transport slice, Transport Slice
    > endpoints = (TSE) and TSRE might be very similar but their object models
    > are different.
    > 
    > Please also see the following = draft which addresses the modeling of the
    > transport slice realization:
    > 
    >   * = draft-liu-teas-transport-network-slice-yang-01
    > 
    > In summary, TRSE are assigned = during the transport slice realization and
    > will be communicated from TSC = NBI to higher system =E2=80=9CTransport slice
    > Customer=E2=80=9D and identifies = how a transport slice is realized in the network.
    > 
    > We will add more clarification = to the draft.
    > 
    >      = Yours,
    > 
    >      = Joel
    > 
    >      On = 7/12/2020 10:49 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
    > 
    >  =     >
    > 
    >      = > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
    > Internet-Drafts directories.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >          = Title           : IETF = Definition of Transport Slice
    > 
    >      = >          = Authors         : Reza Rokui
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Shunsuke Homma
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Kiran Makhijani
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Luis M. Contreras
    > 
    >      = >           &nbs= p;            =     Jeff Tantsura
    > 
    >      = >         = Filename        :
    > = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03.txt
    > 
    >      = >      =    Pages        &nb= sp;  : 21
    > 
    >      = >         = Date            : = 2020-07-12
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Abstract:
    > 
    >      = >     This document describes the definition of a = slice in the
    > transport
    > 
    >      = >     networks and its characteristics.  The = purpose here is to bring
    > 
    >      = >     clarity and a common understanding of the = transport slice
    > concept and
    > 
    >      = >     describe related terms and their = meaning.  It explains how
    > = transport
    > 
    >      = >     slices can be used in combination with end = to end network
    > slices, or
    > 
    >      = >     independently.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    > =      > There are also htmlized versions = available at:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > 
    >      = > 
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > A diff from the previous version is available at:
    > 
    >      = > 
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of
    > submission
    > 
    >      = > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
    > 
    >      = > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = > _______________________________________________
    > 
    >      = > I-D-Announce mailing list
    > 
    >      = > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
    > 
    > 
    >      = > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
    > 
    >      = > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
    > 
    >      = >
    > 
    >      = _______________________________________________
    > 
    >      = Teas mailing list
    > 
    >      Teas@ietf.org
    > 
    > 
_______________________________________________
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= --Apple-Mail=_99AE4440-DA6D-4A53-BA7A-457D4726B5CB-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 08:50:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F83D3A0B45; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RyNq0EA-xRqA; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1B643A0969; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id z6so25199878iow.6; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dIQZI31tHW8Wq2218UJ9/95vRFFWgguehKNTmjvXFac=; b=uC/ZtRLLHtV/8+qcUEEVgBy9rZzobA2gAc/HvPk6dCyblowbUCTIaIaEvVWUWNzp9M 9g1sQevQTtVuIAmgN99z6xjMWS+CfSiRX88l/8iJoE0XbCEUvfMYDbTc4zHBHo5dtOz/ Q2Yrc10+5Ie6zGFb4ZuF0FpCrs0sHBuo51YcaQT0DNWQHYRiNd/yG/QduWiZm1HBr9tn SDBDnyvluQaDJDWNoiRsWuIcmKBSikATIf8b4xGUYz1+gJgwPtoGBOVeyf6lf+gUOSQe ApSZLdofV31Ir+Ht9fr5P41g1CsbVLpqZgUfbzBJBMIi+A9RY7QvUcUa1Cl6rjQLrqyt Nyfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dIQZI31tHW8Wq2218UJ9/95vRFFWgguehKNTmjvXFac=; b=Pon431nCOnKqoeN9bpIdyriQSFhuuhNBJjnKfTl1CXYYZIWH+qX/tpJN9Z1EJV2Um1 a0xjCQjJ+WOGgRHxBYYzEfld0aEqSYff6LcnFtIyo64GFJ56cuynNIqamhx/4/F+CZa4 1GbNnXpwIcnk6sjFDz4xPSovHvbRZIn3YReg/XS59WNJiC7c6teDudjGfKKgX7gSW9ck Wgenx028raFMmcaiUAQw3o/Oy18glix3SMzcOWJtdXXp1JQ/eb8t9ETFyrNfyBat2fLJ XJe9d288H9CdkykgV7qUayCmruU+b71f46UkQrqZW0yJWLezrjQqdrAu5pOMOFw6Pwy6 T3Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318VQgYcqFTX/ZgY0YLB3fTMrInNurEZfpK51BBVjibA4GjVyDu uo/3QO4MPwhi36UDKC0z3ss5Q0/RT7/QpMpSWhJvXFmfYuzINQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxMZ+zNO3y5mUinczsGstV/Y2ueG6rwahYsMI3EHGG5fN/ima603JU6dPSUUbXT7Yz4x/haz8pBWCyftznjxa4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:3bcf:: with SMTP id i198mr21300024ioa.194.1597852224817; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:50:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:50:13 -0500 Message-ID: To: TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000438f6505ad3cf636" Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 15:50:27 -0000 --000000000000438f6505ad3cf636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" All, This is start of a *three* week poll on making draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). Thanks, Pavan and Lou --000000000000438f6505ad3cf636 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
All,

This is start of a *three* week poll on making
draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group document.
Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season).

Thanks,
Pavan and Lou
--000000000000438f6505ad3cf636-- From nobody Wed Aug 19 09:04:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E09A3A0CA7 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6lzg1QypVxu for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BF4E3A0C85 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BWszW15yMz6GG4k; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1597853063; bh=cGE8vby8z4T5c1tu35lj+Bd96Rpwezh880/biKtDYt0=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ivepewa+5vGoZnQ2RexD1nQwe85qc1rCRrNZvy5FYaOq/e9yQ5ctmk4CCC2V50c0w K6pJEivy7P7HMZbQtKtftDyAqLVXFalqtyCl/il+7xBcXMN0DWFSj/yfdn8SgxESBr HNQy13Jl6a5xL9MrzTZ/mAe805JNtqMfXZUwEOo4= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BWszV4MLGz6GF0k; Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:04:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:04:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:04:25 -0000 Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. We are close, but not quite there. Yours, Joel On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > All, > > This is start of a *three* week poll on making > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Thu Aug 20 11:54:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675253A12D7 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:54:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pT8t82u0jPWo for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM10-BN7-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn7nam10on2106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.92.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12313A12D6 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:54:47 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=CQ3kgwNcskgRnNlXuEdpAcKJBPMhfxwsjAW1GpmgDXTcG1SWQ+SSNnYzk4806cmlDCHaBNXkeP0uILjUT5ZzdsCSVrAfS1Jnwiqnqme8BwoCGnH7Tqy4e5F9vO+dvtzcqast2Uimnxu7qH8Aere7dWhXnuEoZfF2wya/ZgDxB1j6xJAxekLaTx5bcEBVXt+cM7G441BlpGqmRobmx+X7nHCvSx8r/9XzQiggPkLABb/TF5E/kI312WeyX1FHertyBAMiIx8r8VPEfpGCma5s+C75keYJBRTwU9pXKGMbuot8KBPwJdIZRjH2kwm998hx5KZqN8xsLTk/AtrvOeP0Jw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=JrrlHgW9PWvxJ/y8HeS+Kpf6GsOqxfnkO0XnYALUte0=; b=MtaYcZZg+wdf7UbJY+zVm/Mwpeqb8CnqPNRHfE0CjRxAKzbnf1aGI/XiYHyn32y8xea/UT+fMJ0+rREGf8/nKTpwKS+TWYOUfV+RpKjjjoW33Xmv6C3wSTINgU5jr7qcOhepqNIPl/sTNuYw38KpaAH1MiqZ0riZ0pQU2+VJAe91vWnQ9zh2DG1NzMswjaHI+WuVxrHjtYgauV+BGHUwH+FtB69e5dfjWhXs3NXIq3CNPDNhD3RIJmt3BkC9RBu3JyxzQW+vkEsbBb+wNlW5L0nkndQ2jYt5nxZoAbUWsH3+MD2PAt+jNw6vhEyedFkx3kZ60jnORQSSl8TVSUw4ug== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=JrrlHgW9PWvxJ/y8HeS+Kpf6GsOqxfnkO0XnYALUte0=; b=nw41LIRRtEBsIVhxsko1zQKjOgDT5CoupZwHjRtp02yW/0GD56dly12jUqqT/Ud6FacbwTg4tt+ouxsI9U/cTgBDb8+wGlF/8uAtBqBYkVeCQWcodW8jnSlAX1DF4lxM7GxyMKagCvrhF2lR8uYpH/24T3NOlzISoo445LO30rk= Received: from BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:cb::23) by BYAPR13MB2838.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:fe::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3326.10; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:54:41 +0000 Received: from BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4596:6de4:d7fe:66ee]) by BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4596:6de4:d7fe:66ee%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3326.010; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:54:41 +0000 From: Kiran Makhijani To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition Thread-Index: AQHWdkCSDxwa/BdjN0OJZziYM0mD76k/mEoAgAHBcsA= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:54:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [67.188.27.49] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ed0bf805-70e5-42d4-c568-08d8453a7f1f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2838: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: a9KRJPMCQxYxXTpJuJeZzmvFzz2Z/LzFfqzboJJNYBUtMov2gqkqSZVQ5kdPyHZKU5ESDqY2t+Oq0mffVSbYewQL84dWU7cnTZXRJBV9felFPdz91Jg/XPW01lz6eHXmmlxhzBVjlfclIBTPAUthc+igBxKca0hU6TGsT9nxgX+Gk8oD5AdNGfPUONl2mXVt90a2CzlSdYzPJcfD4e7hHEvOVFKWiIA1WNsi3We/FPiMSiWd7qAWoh+2qzHDaa6XTzKUzGMQWRWbiTfieVbC8lVXbzoaXM7c1fGFnPaXDASzcWOxhLk7ktOIsZord7lxoqkedcUCWixkZteFiJq38h72EfI+KrKP2ZhJeTmvIyYr3BgkP6C3La+NNUQ5yoZs+ObvGvS8ZEuyhl536mtyHA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(39850400004)(136003)(396003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(66476007)(64756008)(66446008)(66556008)(83080400001)(66946007)(2906002)(71200400001)(83380400001)(76116006)(86362001)(45080400002)(6506007)(53546011)(5660300002)(26005)(52536014)(478600001)(186003)(966005)(7696005)(316002)(8936002)(110136005)(33656002)(9686003)(8676002)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ed0bf805-70e5-42d4-c568-08d8453a7f1f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Aug 2020 18:54:41.5204 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ryJO22vHhSkJFMcgULtGAsPvkKz8YCewHwyElVDI+8UJjzdaZzEBpQBphs/gLzrq0jiB7GbQeNdTcDifIu6OoA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2838 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:54:49 -0000 Hi Joel, After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if they we= re convincing. Please let us know.=20 Thanks Kiran > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definit= ion >=20 > Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do not t= hink this > document should be adopted as a WG document. > We are close, but not quite there. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > All, > > > > This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group > document. > > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like > > to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > > > The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season)= . > > > > Thanks, > > Pavan and Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > utur > > > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 > c753a1d > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%2B > RAlZTXBv5 > > XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FG > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Thu Aug 20 13:19:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8D63A13EF for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYmR3T33Eeca for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF8293A13EB for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BXbbQ43KLz4TFXj; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1597954770; bh=U8PCo3I9KkXro/ZybobUmmqcAgIc273Yw1n09UC2B9E=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=c4LV5fSm0kpFlRLZZLZO4On3NCUWeo+nAL0SzggNld10myxaI/pya+p6R+Z1xkJ6h FdmjE4gaDhFcQndJ2YdR4VZFl7VyhVw1COVzZXfNFppjdAxuDdT0boGqYvSN3cqUX+ IcKKgTCDV/qhf3KfFJQPihvLAgudwQ7zJ7hu07ZE= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a1.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BXbbP4mrbz4TFXJ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:19:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:19:32 -0000 No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the appendix. Yours, Joel On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Hi Joel, > After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if they were convincing. > Please let us know. > Thanks > Kiran > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >> >> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do not think this >> document should be adopted as a WG document. >> We are close, but not quite there. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>> All, >>> >>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group >> document. >>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >>> support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >>> document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like >>> to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >>> >>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Pavan and Lou >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >> utur >>> >> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >> c753a1d >>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4%2B >> RAlZTXBv5 >>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.i >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu >> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 >> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FG >> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Thu Aug 20 14:20:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DA63A1424 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 14:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com 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5d25f515-7ea8-44b6-2600-08d8454ed6c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Aug 2020 21:20:18.4422 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5mnVLZATSn0vDsw9kFEV5+HvHNFIKeu4tdlv9GCMAU4bM2Cywps9DdTUvNAVcG+xSUISRm29WT5R0itVBPZnOg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB3668 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 21:20:23 -0000 SGkgSm9lbCwgDQpJIGFtIG9rIHRvIHJlbW92ZSBzb21lIHBhcnQgZnJvbSBBcHBlbmRpeCBvbmx5 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dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 76k8T55I3KGg for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C344F3A1485 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BXg8s43Xhz4TFJY; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:00:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1597964413; bh=soLNN4h7jkeg37Z4H7PD5ThoVbA4+y122CfSIaiVfXM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=AC7LGNX83xNHkajR+uOkIhNOgwQlPnGQlZK/y0twIwUN6OqJB9BgWVuM2SzXoebfk YXc+5QToJpI1LALl4yt+Z92BkwT+HFXM8b5egQjJ72hNqyh3LWsYlNFE0PU3jeFk4/ MeFfXnk36DXoLKwQBhFFKGim19zx4ijt82drQCRc= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a1.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BXg8r6NyHz4TDYp; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:00:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 19:00:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:00:15 -0000 Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG. But it does not belong in the definitions draft. Yours, Joel On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Hi Joel, > I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in the framework first. > > But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they are not visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > Thanks > Kiran > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel Halpern Direct >> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> ; TEAS WG >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >> >> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >> >> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more importantly >> removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the appendix. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>> Hi Joel, >>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if they >> were convincing. >>> Please let us know. >>> Thanks >>> Kiran >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>> >>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do >>>> not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. >>>> We are close, but not quite there. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group >>>> document. >>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >>>>> support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >>>>> document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd >>>>> like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >>>>> >>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Pavan and Lou >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>> >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>>>> >>>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>>> utur >>>>> >>>> >> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >>>> c753a1d >>>>> >>>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4%2B >>>> RAlZTXBv5 >>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Teas mailing list >>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww >>>> .i >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu >>>> >> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 >>>> >> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FG >>>> >> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >> utur >>> >> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >> c753a1d >>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3BL >> sLRq9T9a >>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 >>> From nobody Thu Aug 20 16:02:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5961F3A148D for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8mql2Rtk_ZR for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BF503A148A for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BXgBz2cCgz4TDrb; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:02:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1597964523; bh=QUe9h3208bJki8xMfrprmwGYQnqVfTBzxsLKxV4xcwc=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Fx6dWUoV/Ypa8GuE3uBblkmGUUtZTjmCADpqy3eWNPbbtAGFqKpb2wgLt1cylJoiF WyH0lAmJDN/PXrj+AaZ3j78swnK7X38aYXv02Mvq3zxdxy7uOX7qlKZYbLz+dTEax7 yzysZZCq12Ls+KjNX/a3tf02ht5bFIlVIe2H2hYw= X-Quarantine-ID: <5taMqY0EblZf> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a1.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BXgBy5WLmz4TDYp; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:02:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <2f67b77c-7634-1d22-32c9-b73f29ccf95a@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 19:02:01 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - TSRE X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:02:05 -0000 The rule of thumb for a standard is not to specify things you do not need, as what you actually need will likely turn out to be different, if you need it at all. As such, I do not see any jsutification for including TSRE in this draft. Having said that, this is not a hill I will die on. If the WG chairs decide it is useful and belongs then fine, so be it. Yours, Joel On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Hi Joel, > I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in the framework first. > > But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they are not visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > Thanks > Kiran > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joel Halpern Direct >> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> ; TEAS WG >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >> >> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >> >> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more importantly >> removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the appendix. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>> Hi Joel, >>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if they >> were convincing. >>> Please let us know. >>> Thanks >>> Kiran >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>> >>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do >>>> not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. >>>> We are close, but not quite there. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group >>>> document. >>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >>>>> support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >>>>> document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd >>>>> like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >>>>> >>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Pavan and Lou >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>> >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>>>> >>>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>>> utur >>>>> >>>> >> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >>>> c753a1d >>>>> >>>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4%2B >>>> RAlZTXBv5 >>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Teas mailing list >>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww >>>> .i >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu >>>> >> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 >>>> >> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FG >>>> >> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >> utur >>> >> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >> c753a1d >>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3BL >> sLRq9T9a >>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 >>> From nobody Thu Aug 20 20:17:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116573A17CF for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:17:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wU60F8DgLm0G for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 478723A1074 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml743-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 03FE0DDCFF2CA2C9E598; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 04:17:23 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) by lhreml743-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.193) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 04:17:22 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:17:20 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:17:20 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W34J/WNHjo5UOG7rbDhHZZJ6lByflg Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 03:17:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.143] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 03:17:28 -0000 Hi Joel,=20 In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the conten= t in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text in the ap= pendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some minor edits= were not included yet.=20 As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the framework = document, currently the design team has no specific opinion about this, and= feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran mentioned, description a= nd discussion about isolation is needed in the NS-DT documents. Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > ; TEAS WG > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definit= ion - > Appendix >=20 > Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I for o= ne will not > push for adding it to the Framework. You are welcome to dabate adding it= to > the framework with the rest of the WG. But it does not belong in the > definitions draft. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in the > framework first. > > > > But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they ar= e not > visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of defi= nitions > document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of transport slices,= and > all we are saying is that when realizing a transport slice, things TSEs w= ill map to > are called TSREs. > > I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > > > Thanks > > Kiran > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Joel Halpern Direct > >> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >> ; TEAS WG > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >> > >> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > >> > >> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more importantly > >> removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the appendix. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>> Hi Joel, > >>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if > >>> they > >> were convincing. > >>> Please let us know. > >>> Thanks > >>> Kiran > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > >>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>> > >>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do > >>>> not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > >>>> We are close, but not quite there. > >>>> > >>>> Yours, > >>>> Joel > >>>> > >>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > >>>>> All, > >>>>> > >>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > >>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group > >>>> document. > >>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do > >>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > >>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > >>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > document. > >>>>> > >>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > season). > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Pavan and Lou > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > >>>> utur > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 > >>>> c753a1d > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%2B > >>>> RAlZTXBv5 > >>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Teas mailing list > >>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>> > >> > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww > >>>> .i > >> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu > >>>> > >> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 > >>>> > >> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FG > >>>> > >> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Teas mailing list > >>> Teas@ietf.org > >>> > >> > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > >>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > >> utur > >>> > >> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 > >> c753a1d > >>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3BL > >> sLRq9T9a > >>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Thu Aug 20 20:28:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88133A17E7 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24fhiz1C-YBA for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D8D83A17E6 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BXn6160VQz6G9fV; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:28:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1597980489; bh=QKnAuDNYW1nY898T9jIVZfN/g0YokH7+oXyQYJbL5y8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=UDLOMSucHeXFDdY0/vP5ry5vDws5DgGjWB00h7dl5HdF1rdqMj30j1WYmelg6rPXe mvjZeU/JXNywKikUf9/RrkUzf88tt2sY4KrZX6i/xgf5dpOtoFtXnp/yzYL5z9LhOS +cjsNBdAhoVUr2WoNqmVuu98/JzD8x6c1gB20mXA= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BXn604rsHz6G7tS; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:28:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:28:07 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 03:28:12 -0000 The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the last paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not seem to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parameter / this is a parameter" Yours, Joel On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > Hi Joel, > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text in the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some minor edits were not included yet. > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the NS-DT documents. > > Best regards, > Jie > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> ; TEAS WG >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - >> Appendix >> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I for one will not >> push for adding it to the Framework. You are welcome to dabate adding it to >> the framework with the rest of the WG. But it does not belong in the >> definitions draft. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>> Hi Joel, >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in the >> framework first. >>> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they are not >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of definitions >> document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of transport slices, and >> all we are saying is that when realizing a transport slice, things TSEs will map to >> are called TSREs. >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Kiran >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>>> ; TEAS WG >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >>>> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more importantly >>>> removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the appendix. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further if >>>>> they >>>> were convincing. >>>>> Please let us know. >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Kiran >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>>>> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I do >>>>>> not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>>>>>> All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group >>>>>> document. >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG >> document. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation >> season). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>>>>> utur >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >>>>>> c753a1d >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4%2B >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>>> >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww >>>>>> .i >>>> >> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fu >>>>>> >>>> >> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401 >>>>>> >>>> >> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FG >>>>>> >>>> >> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>> >>>> >> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >>>>> >>>> >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>>> utur >>>>> >>>> >> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 >>>> c753a1d >>>>> >>>> >> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3BL >>>> sLRq9T9a >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Fri Aug 21 01:26:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7D63A0844 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MOKyPHoMSn1b for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045E73A0840 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml719-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D1676C307D84D8E35891; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:26:02 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.97) by lhreml719-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.70) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:26:02 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:25:57 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:25:56 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W34J/WNHjo5UOG7rbDhHZZJ6lByflg//+Xi4CAALyfAA== Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:25:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.143] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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AOAM530VsDJjFtIq1a3a6lq1dHqvmi7Wx4oTLsQvKkDzp8NzPyIkgx+I P/qNuvkOwNQb3lybVlAc14BXpcbHP3SS4b/3Res= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGgyZzdBQf8QIfMo+SjwfPLoTHF1NvCgtE+vJU5VZHvQJ4cgFpFVLj8hBLS5mu5RqiPnv5fYJQVptCDTVUdAA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:9d0:: with SMTP id y16mr1860928qky.353.1597999755401; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 01:49:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> From: "Luis M. Contreras" Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:49:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" Cc: Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c59d5005ad5f4f6e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:49:19 -0000 --000000000000c59d5005ad5f4f6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jie, Joel, all, Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport slices. The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies through the SBI of the TSC. Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective. In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an annex or in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport slicing in any other document. Best regards, Luis El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) () escribi=C3=B3: > Hi Joel, > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this > draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is > that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of netwo= rk > slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would b= e > incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF histo= ry > isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion = is > necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network > slice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible > realization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. > > Best regards, > Jie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani > > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > ; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the > last > > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not > seem > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a paramete= r > / this is > > a parameter" > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text > in > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the > NS-DT > > documents. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > >> Halpern > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >> ; TEAS WG > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > >> > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG= . > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > >> > > >> Yours, > > >> Joel > > >> > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>> Hi Joel, > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > > >>> the > > >> framework first. > > >>> > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that the= y > > >>> are not > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Kiran > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >>>> ; TEAS WG > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>> > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of th= e > > appendix. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yours, > > >>>> Joel > > >>>> > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > > >>>>> if they > > >>>> were convincing. > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > >>>>> Thanks > > >>>>> Kiran > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Yours, > > >>>>>> Joel > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > >>>>>>> All, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > > >>>>>>> group > > >>>>>> document. > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/d= o > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > > >> document. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > > >> season). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>>>> utur > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > 2B > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > w > > >>>>>> .i > > >>>> > > >> > > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > u > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > 01 > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > G > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > 0 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>> utur > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>> c753a1d > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > > BL > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > >>>>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Teas mailing list > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --=20 ___________________________________________ Luis M. Contreras contreras.ietf@gmail.com luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com Global CTIO unit / Telefonica --000000000000c59d5005ad5f4f6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jie, Joel, all,

Just to share my vie= w. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related to the notion of slice in= the industry, and as such it should be covered in the definitions draft wh= en referring to transport slices.=C2=A0

The development of wh= at isolation implies, in practical terms, could go to the framework draft o= r to any other specific document, and for sure we can expect references to = degrees of isolation achieved in the mapping of slicing mechanisms to disti= nct transport technologies through the SBI of the TSC.

Not co= vering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport slicing inco= mplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective.=C2=A0

In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation=C2=A0(as an annex= =C2=A0or in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always= improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to facilit= ate the development of its scope when applied to transport slicing in any o= ther document.

Best regards,

Luis


El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie= (Jimmy) (<jie.dong@huawei.com>) escribi=C3=B3:
Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's disc= ussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of= course the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is = necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network sl= ice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it trie= s to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realizati= on mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@f= uturewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.=C2= =A0 In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.=C2=A0 It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.=C2=A0 Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology i= n the scope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>=
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Bee= ram
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joe= l M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TE= AS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed = once the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.= com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.or= g%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> tu= rewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.= com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.= org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


--
__________________________= _________________
Luis M. Contreras
<= div>Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
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Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:10:36 +0000 From: David Sinicrope To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W0igAkaW5DsEy70BZiIEZpr6lB5J0AgAADA4CAAFM2AIAATJFP Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:10:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> , <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huawei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [107.15.207.138] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 63f63fbb-6c95-4a15-f68f-08d845d39800 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR15MB3294: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jie, You note =93isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of = network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it w= ould be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF= history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the disc= ussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between = network slice and VPNs.=94 I=92m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references to support= these claims? I=92m specifically referring to the claim that =93most=94 r= elated standards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic. = This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including th= e history of the IETF. If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the tr= affic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or character= istic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or texts u= ntil the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset of= the community. I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask that= it be removed. Thanks, Dave ________________________________ From: Teas on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi Joel, Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG. One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is = necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network sl= ice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it trie= s to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realizati= on mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > ; TEAS WG > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definit= ion - > Appendix > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the las= t > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not se= em > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parameter = / this is > a parameter" > > Yours, > Joel > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text i= n > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the NS= -DT > documents. > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > >> Halpern > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >> ; TEAS WG > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > >> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG. > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>> Hi Joel, > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > >>> the > >> framework first. > >>> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they > >>> are not > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Kiran > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >>>> ; TEAS WG > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > >>>> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the > appendix. > >>>> > >>>> Yours, > >>>> Joel > >>>> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>>>> Hi Joel, > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > >>>>> if they > >>>> were convincing. > >>>>> Please let us know. > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> Kiran > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yours, > >>>>>> Joel > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > >>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > >>>>>>> group > >>>>>> document. > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > >> document. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > >> season). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e= 472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>>>> utur > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>>>> c753a1d > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > 2B > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e= 472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w > >>>>>> .i > >>>> > >> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > u > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > 01 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > G > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > 0 > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e= 472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>> utur > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>> c753a1d > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > BL > >>>> sLRq9T9a > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_MN2PR15MB29903640C9630924BA18B61E8F5B0MN2PR15MB2990namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jie,
You note =93isolation has been considered as one of the charac= teristics of network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of V= PNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship an= d difference between network slice and VPNs.=94

I=92m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have refe= rences to support these claims?  I=92m specifically referring to the c= laim that =93most=94 related standards and publications consider isolation = as a characteristic.  This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IETF.

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identif= ication of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treat= ment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the disc= ussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only introduc= ed by a subset of the community.

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed.=  I also ask that it be removed.

Thanks,
Dave


From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) = <jie.dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS = WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix
 
Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as = one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the rel= ationship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in = the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible r= ealization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.&nbs= p; In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:t= eas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pava= n Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org><= br> > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the sc= ope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.= com>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vis= hnu Pavan Beeram
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.= org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On B= ehalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail= .com>; TEAS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once= the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e47= 2243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e47= 2243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40= f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e47= 2243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.org
> >> https:= //www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/teas
--_000_MN2PR15MB29903640C9630924BA18B61E8F5B0MN2PR15MB2990namp_-- From nobody Fri Aug 21 08:42:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEFCB3A0BB0 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A7jL4tBUi3na for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99FF23A0BA7 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BY5Nr2j50z6G7Jh; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1598024524; bh=Kbp6OVyYs/YMQCjIHkU71/9kPN6lgv2W92ndDXiLo1w=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ARxUgnogOPN4LFE1qV51aL3X+b+sAcoPY6r1rT0UsRsTdq51uhZGzQbDDYBXW40JT fvdGJU65V9lO8GhZBW5kEtfdqXRjOL1xlYDOmRzPiqJrW1+7E/vrpkEsST/uwJFBdH cb0NxjAAy+sjIuGqtbHmQIvc6rhZ3O8sa8IhanZ0= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BY5Np2gDmz6GD9W; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:42:02 -0700 (PDT) To: "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" Cc: Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:42:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:42:08 -0000 Luis, I think I disagree with you. Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about isolation properties. But about whether it belongs in this document. I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and your team worry about many forms of isolation. Many of which do not appear in the eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion). And many of which do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces. The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation. They were not able to do so. The text they now have tries to claim utility, claims relevance to the customer, but is not acutally usable in designing a service. "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many different properties. For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do have in the definitions) is a form of isolation. A delay variation commitment is a form of isolation. But as a term on its own, separate from these parameters, "isolation" does not add value to this document. Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete. We produce useful pieces. You put them together. As an operator you add your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you build and deliver service. Yours, Joel On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related to > the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be covered in > the definitions draft when referring to transport slices. > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could go > to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for sure > we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the mapping > of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies through the SBI > of the TSC. > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport > slicing incomplete from an operator’s perspective. > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an annex or in > the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport > slicing in any other document. > > Best regards, > > Luis > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) ( >) escribió: > > Hi Joel, > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on > this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft > is that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics > of network slicing in most of the related standards and > publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition draft > does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been > considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary > for explaining the relationship and difference between network slice > and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several > possible realization mechanism, which makes this description > reasonably generic. > > Best regards, > Jie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > ] > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) >; Kiran Makhijani > > >; Vishnu > Pavan Beeram > > >; TEAS WG > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation > to the > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should > agree.  In > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status > as any > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the > appendix > > anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain > the last > > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It > does not seem > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a > parameter / this is > > a parameter" > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion > about the > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The > current text in > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed > in the NS-DT > > documents. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > >> Halpern > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >> >; TEAS > WG > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > >> > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is > useful, I > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  You are > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of > the WG. > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > >> > > >> Yours, > > >> Joel > > >> > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>> Hi Joel, > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is > included in > > >>> the > > >> framework first. > > >>> > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text > that they > > >>> are not > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the > purpose of > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the > scope of > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Kiran > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >>>> >; TEAS > WG > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>> > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part > of the > > appendix. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yours, > > >>>> Joel > > >>>> > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard > further > > >>>>> if they > > >>>> were convincing. > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > >>>>> Thanks > > >>>>> Kiran > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Teas > On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram >; TEAS WG > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email > list, I > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Yours, > > >>>>>> Joel > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > >>>>>>> All, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > > >>>>>>> group > > >>>>>> document. > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or > "no/do > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your > reservations > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is > a WG > > >> document. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for > vacation > > >> season). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>>>> utur > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com > %7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4% > > 2B > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w > > >>>>>> .i > > >>>> > > >> > > etf.org > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > u > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > turewei.com > %7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > 01 > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2F > > G > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved= > > 0 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>> utur > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com > %7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>> c753a1d > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3 > > BL > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 > > >>>>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Teas mailing list > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Luis M. Contreras > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica From nobody Fri Aug 21 08:52:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F033A0B84 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9BSZarqXygmT for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1D943A0B45 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07LFgMKB034107; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:50 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 332h1r09pg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:49 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 07LFomj7028003; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:49 -0400 Received: from zlp30483.vci.att.com (zlp30483.vci.att.com [135.47.91.189]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 07LFojDZ027976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:45 -0400 Received: from zlp30483.vci.att.com (zlp30483.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30483.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 89EC740145B0; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DA.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [135.50.89.114]) by zlp30483.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 6512640145BC; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:50:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com (135.50.89.118) by GAALPA1MSGEX1DA.ITServices.sbc.com (135.50.89.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2044.4; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:44 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com ([135.50.89.118]) by GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com ([135.50.89.118]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 11:50:44 -0400 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: David Sinicrope , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0WwM49orxDf90+zmKjJ0J5mVqlB/ZgmgACATACAAE+JAP//xUDQ Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:50:43 +0000 Message-ID: <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> , <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.137.110] x-tm-snts-smtp: 33C48F3103C5ECDFD894E2EF3A1054A307A42B81115FF615A31E075ACF957D4E2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cfattcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-08-21_08:2020-08-21, 2020-08-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008210145 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:52:19 -0000 --_000_77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cfattcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, (speaking as an individual) While the document is in it's early stages, I think it is important to sort= out this use of the term "isolation". Already by use of the term "transpor= t", the scope of this work may be confused with the traditional definition = of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15's transport technolo= gies. Important is to define "transport" carefully for the IETF context, wh= ich I think this document is a good start. Mixing "isolation" with "dedicat= ed resources" is a step back to the traditional definition. As the authors note, the term "isolation" is used in other SDOs, including = 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here's a recent publicly available white = paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requirements from 3GPP for network= slicing: https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_NFV= -EVE012v030101p.pdf In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical res= ources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, security, p= rivacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logical or physical= (and either fully or partly), it is not a "requirement". Physical and virt= ual resources are used with respect to "realize", not define. I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A's example saying a customer = will request "dedicated resources" and saying the solution of using dedicat= ed resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requirements are met, clashes with t= he rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines= resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the aut= hors intended it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context o= f this document to mix the definition of "isolation" with "dedicated resour= ces". While an Appendix, it should not clash with the main document. Best i= s to remove for now. Thanks, Deborah (individual) From: Teas On Behalf Of David Sinicrope Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct ; Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beer= am ; TEAS WG Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Jie, You note "isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of ne= twork slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it wou= ld be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF h= istory isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discus= sion is necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between ne= twork slice and VPNs." I'm not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references to support t= hese claims? I'm specifically referring to the claim that "most" related s= tandards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic. This has= not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the histor= y of the IETF. If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the tr= affic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or character= istic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or texts u= ntil the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset of= the community. I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask that= it be removed. Thanks, Dave ________________________________ From: Teas > on behalf = of Dongjie (Jimmy) > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi Joel, Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG. One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is = necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network sl= ice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it trie= s to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realizati= on mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) >; Ki= ran Makhijani > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definit= ion - > Appendix > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the las= t > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not se= em > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parameter = / this is > a parameter" > > Yours, > Joel > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text i= n > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the NS= -DT > documents. > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > >> Halpern > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > >> To: Kiran Makhijani = >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >> >; TEAS WG > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > >> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG. > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>> Hi Joel, > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > >>> the > >> framework first. > >>> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they > >>> are not > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Kiran > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >>>> >; TEAS WG > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > >>>> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the > appendix. > >>>> > >>>> Yours, > >>>> Joel > >>>> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>>>> Hi Joel, > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > >>>>> if they > >>>> were convincing. > >>>>> Please let us know. > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> Kiran > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Teas > O= n Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram >; TEAS WG > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yours, > >>>>>> Joel > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > >>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > >>>>>>> group > >>>>>> document. > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > >> document. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > >> season). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e= 472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>>>> utur > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>>>> c753a1d > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > 2B > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e= 472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w > >>>>>> .i > >>>> > >> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > u > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > 01 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > G > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > 0 > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e= 472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>> utur > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>> c753a1d > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > BL > >>>> sLRq9T9a > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cfattcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

(speaking as an individual)

 

While the document is in it’s early stages, I = think it is important to sort out this use of the term “isolationR= 21;. Already by use of the term “transport”, the scope of this = work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15’s transport technologies. Im= portant is to define “transport” carefully for the IETF context= , which I think this document is a good start. Mixing “isolation̶= 1; with “dedicated resources” is a step back to the traditional definition.

 

As the authors note, the term “isolation”= ; is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here&#= 8217;s a recent publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which summariz= es the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

https://www.etsi.org= /deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf<= /a>

 

In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation p= roperties, physical resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, = resiliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may= be logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a “requirement”. Physical and virt= ual resources are used with respect to “realize”, not define.

 

I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A’= ;s example saying a customer will request “dedicated resources”= and saying the solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN)  guara= ntees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines resources= not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the authors inten= ded it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context of this doc= ument to mix the definition of “isolation” with “dedicated resources”. While an Appendix, it should not c= lash with the main document. Best is to remove for now.

 

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct= <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.c= om>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Jie,

You note “isolation has been considered as one of the charact= eristics of network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of V= PNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship an= d difference between network slice and VPNs.”

 

I’m not sure where this is coming from. Do you= have references to support these claims?  I’m specifically refe= rring to the claim that “most” related standards and publicatio= ns consider isolation as a characteristic.  This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IET= F.

 

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with i= dentification of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any= treatment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.

 

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of th= e discussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only in= troduced by a subset of the community.

 

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not n= eeded.  I also ask that it be removed.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) <<= a href=3D"mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com">jie.dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS = WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as = one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the rel= ationship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in = the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible r= ealization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.don= g@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@futurewei.com&g= t;; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnupavan@gmail.com= >; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.&nbs= p; In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:t= eas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmai= l.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the sc= ope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >>>> <vishnupa= van@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ie= tf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; TEAS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@iet= f.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once= the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@iet= f.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e47= 2243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.or= g
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e47= 2243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40= f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e47= 2243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

--_000_77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cfattcom_-- From nobody Fri Aug 21 08:58:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17CF3A0B76 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:58:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emiTreND_LvD for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A65D3A0B4B for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id f26so2377754ljc.8 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:58:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iDZkBKPhUfegoaU76vY6S29fsQqfIELhUpCW1j+oitM=; b=jV0GTKm4z3crSeS+QDgnSeRpD0Jz1dNiDCReqmMJpLjn4qLtrzvZv34ftJFB81ikps 3IfPQlGcTJ7SnUvU0vM/DWaXc/+Lv+pqAM9U7OgHW+4JIXoqhecvHcjga9qzkOUzX4Zu nPcoi2HsMhlqKusAywQwvk4raNR8vTVc5303KCUfBWY1SCEgiL33/VakTdMP6aENxjs0 /R6Pe+T5MweGqGUXX205qB4Lc3i0/uORyWHpTi57wRBG2qhGEwyGwzAqQzn/FmibNhSZ x9slm+aqFoiwiW1/awkDQV9e5bimwQUB32l/wyAvsBrfwaFYsf5cmiXu7zLfka+ZDhZw Juuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iDZkBKPhUfegoaU76vY6S29fsQqfIELhUpCW1j+oitM=; b=MzLdFamBFI/OBblxUzD3OwBBge2JCtcqlZQ1oIxOm3+wqkY/uYLKqojWRiTgUlD6/O TZMy5Dh72EnGcM2u3AsUQO2dSLKhtQ4B7f3Ff+Kgd4IKphiWqIP/T8tB/gZb6EguH5cJ VsT53sbCNvdzGT9U4HyVbSUUGiMxvuhGGb1bChSZ3JWcahU14jlzdNholOO2l6w6NhY9 C86Sugc8080oyaYv6AqV7yarIpGwFZ9M1yKixXkodLMCB6/gLLPpHiAvsSEtt3c7dzMf GE3ScXS+2LC8K/3n3NbHjutiHd0oUECbYdsXyMznbOevdicZbgFUe0Iih7Cl1S7L8nEE /GUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532a8dOJn3wp6gr0z8VNkiJyeIb6dKbw6RTawVUbUrvLLRqWKrob 2thJN8hcXucR/LoHn0J5eqF70cLqSwWYoe15C3g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+m+Qzsmk2iqCtCIT7Tl7+oeQmHLSJH76ZvUfhlj3X46oBP290GRQP9HZgF3fx8HIsajaMcdmqS1M8kdQRtE8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b61c:: with SMTP id r28mr1694673ljn.23.1598025481608; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:58:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:57:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" Cc: Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002c658a05ad654da6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:58:07 -0000 --0000000000002c658a05ad654da6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Jie, I hope you or other proponents of the continued use of isolation metric help me to understand how it can be measured or calculated. Personally, I can only compare it to the connectivity verification that, as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset, allows us to detect the state of misconnection for the given OAM domain. Do you think that the connectivity check is related to slice isolation? What else can be used as a metric to quantify the slice isolation? I am concerned, that if the document introduces something that is not measurable or calculable, that something is not really useful and may not be needed at all. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 1:26 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this > draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is > that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network > slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be > incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history > isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is > necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network > slice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible > realization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. > > Best regards, > Jie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani > > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > ; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the > last > > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not > seem > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parameter > / this is > > a parameter" > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text > in > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the > NS-DT > > documents. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > >> Halpern > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >> ; TEAS WG > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > >> > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG. > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > >> > > >> Yours, > > >> Joel > > >> > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>> Hi Joel, > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > > >>> the > > >> framework first. > > >>> > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they > > >>> are not > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Kiran > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >>>> ; TEAS WG > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>> > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the > > appendix. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yours, > > >>>> Joel > > >>>> > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > > >>>>> if they > > >>>> were convincing. > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > >>>>> Thanks > > >>>>> Kiran > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Yours, > > >>>>>> Joel > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > >>>>>>> All, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > > >>>>>>> group > > >>>>>> document. > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > > >> document. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > > >> season). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>>>> utur > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4% > > 2B > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w > > >>>>>> .i > > >>>> > > >> > > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > u > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > 01 > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2F > > G > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved= > > 0 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > w. > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>> utur > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>> c753a1d > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3 > > BL > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 > > >>>>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Teas mailing list > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000002c658a05ad654da6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jie,
I hope you or other proponents of the continue= d use of isolation metric help me to understand how it can be measured or c= alculated. Personally, I can only compare it to the connectivity verificati= on that, as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset, allows us to detect t= he state of misconnection for the given OAM domain. Do you think that the c= onnectivity check is related to slice isolation? What else can be used as a= metric to quantify the slice isolation? I am concerned, that if the docume= nt=C2=A0introduces something that is not measurable=C2=A0or calculable, tha= t something is not really useful and may not be needed at all.
Regards,
Greg



On = Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 1:26 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's disc= ussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of= course the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is = necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network sl= ice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it trie= s to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realizati= on mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@f= uturewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.=C2= =A0 In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.=C2=A0 It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.=C2=A0 Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology i= n the scope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>=
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Bee= ram
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joe= l M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TE= AS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed = once the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.= com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.or= g%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> tu= rewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.= com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.= org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--0000000000002c658a05ad654da6-- From nobody Fri Aug 21 15:53:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02023A13FB for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nu1jbmM3zMBT for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12on2111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.243.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB0453A1411 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 15:52:46 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=lNYc1yqLvncc0gCAY5kte/AR1obBN7Qa8ADXn5yTBofm6eMBx1SkgFSsF+h5BUITxMMr5rBAbX2yvk6ATxEyDhdfzVjkaUAH0NO1/+PbPl0ygVkmD70dBw0NSfrJpZ1ySGl7AffVIo3jhgqY7iODRmaEaMVRhnLBwfQrmN8E0EHeEki5ETLpVZDIeISvEFXkIMd6mKDIQ1jARLWZ1uP3FOzBoDDTmBOAqaefHj6hb0Q7YtJe+LdevvoK2fWuxq7Kjz6OdZbFAs/3MHqmyfaJeQbE9EIVk/kw43gcBB0jHFvtNEMnGKao9i4kk8Bwu1yeJ0+knwlEuh3P8t1ahfMIHg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=emT5IK+RwUP5rBjiIhc3H+48g9ToMpa3AcpEnbai+iQ=; b=F7ESSjaBSqR00ALYAY9aZAmQKCb4YBgzS3VLqiaLH6GzfXsNey2NOBR8hzNIrRsRtYxIlWKvm9q9IbFRVajo5jn5YKk87MOK69356hd60SI20xRlSKVtRFRPVtFduU7YNrmLePuzIaDl3sNycO7Sol8JrnJJlkQukId++7exKFVJ9jLTepcZLYif31HAz+REZetcaFZ432zJTCMsssa9xY52Fma2GltNIVlLckRC8jerS7cwVdAOfzMtEob9hPUTalzSPVRAExRi27nRt2eHaYj3Sm3/OVQNvx91CPXQduNqSge5rc4sN9TyRVC5ULtTPVMi3cDQR6Nyf7LYA/QGJw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=emT5IK+RwUP5rBjiIhc3H+48g9ToMpa3AcpEnbai+iQ=; b=p4rzsqrfqoZBtAWYN5YTBLgD8C4nS6RSeICaobwxL0qiujcHeHv/h/SKMdQICIycLO9vx4NHUac7RrvXNMPhaDWt4HH02qwnyznKqv6IZoy/0c9fR+zVc8IwKrxd8HXb+/gJBIkDTqZy/xQXUiJF8JnIKWmsFyM/wacFbvDMNdk= Received: from BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:cb::23) by BYAPR13MB2296.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a02:c7::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3305.13; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:52:43 +0000 Received: from BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4596:6de4:d7fe:66ee]) by BYAPR13MB2437.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4596:6de4:d7fe:66ee%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3326.010; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:52:42 +0000 From: Kiran Makhijani To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0Wrkz00zR3llEmclZBr6kwAjKlB5J0AgAADA4CAAFM2AIAABnWAgABzYQCAAE60QA== Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:52:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: joelhalpern.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;joelhalpern.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [67.188.27.49] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 63c70568-728d-400d-9a2e-08d84624e9d0 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2296: 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In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:21:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kiran Makhijani Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e2011505ad6b7e69" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 23:21:33 -0000 --000000000000e2011505ad6b7e69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kiran, I have to admit that I'm confused by the last paragraph in your note. First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not observable (though I am not sure what quote marks around directly signify). But then you add "will rely on other means of monitoring". Isn't any type of monitoring, in fact, a method of a direct observation? Also, I sense that one of the motivations behind using the term isolation is to differentiate between physical and virtual instances that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in the overlay network. If that is the case, perhaps we can avoid the contention around the use of the term isolation as SLO and instead add a parameter that can have two values, physical and virtual? Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Hi Joel, > Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolation is > observable. > > That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with in the > context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you gave a > feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we all completely > agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly. > > In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could also > be very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated from (or > should have no interference with) other traffic". > This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, we > cannot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define 'isolation' then > that can be a container in NBI. One common use case where customer could > ask this is financial institutions or critical infrastructure explicitly > asking for a (or a set of) physical ports or links. > > The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer could > explicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing transport > slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those asks. > > An alternative to deleting the text maybe - don=E2=80=99t use term isola= tion but > describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. And maybe clearly sa= y > this is not 'directly' observable and will rely on other means of > monitoring that are case specific such as mapping physical port counters = to > service counters etc. > > -Kiran > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel M. Halpern > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM > > To: Luis M. Contreras ; Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > Cc: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > ; TEAS WG ; LUIS MIGUEL > > CONTRERAS MURILLO > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > Luis, I think I disagree with you. > > Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about > isolation > > properties. > > But about whether it belongs in this document. > > > > I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and you= r > team > > worry about many forms of isolation. Many of which do not appear in th= e > > eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion). And many > of which > > do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces. > > > > The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation. > > They were not able to do so. The text they now have tries to claim > utility, > > claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in > designing a > > service. > > > > "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many different > > properties. For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do have in t= he > > definitions) is a form of isolation. A delay variation commitment is a > form of > > isolation. But as a term on its own, separate from these parameters, > "isolation" > > does not add value to this document. > > > > Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete. > > We produce useful pieces. You put them together. As an operator you a= dd > > your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you > build and > > deliver service. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > > > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > > > > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related > > > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be > > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport slices. > > > > > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could > > > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for > > > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the > > > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies > > > through the SBI of the TSC. > > > > > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport > > > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective. > > > > > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an annex or > > > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always > > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > > > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport > > > slicing in any other document. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > ( > > >) escribi=C3=B3: > > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > > > > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team'= s > > > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on > > > this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > > > > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this > draft > > > is that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristi= cs > > > of network slicing in most of the related standards and > > > publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition draft > > > does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been > > > considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessar= y > > > for explaining the relationship and difference between network > slice > > > and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, i= t > > > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several > > > possible realization mechanism, which makes this description > > > reasonably generic. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > > > ] > > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) > > >; Kiran Makhijani > > > > >; Vishnu > > > Pavan Beeram > > > > >; TEAS W= G > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > > > Appendix > > > > > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendati= on > > > to the > > > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should > > > agree. In > > > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same statu= s > > > as any > > > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the > > > appendix > > > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to > retain > > > the last > > > > paragraph of the appendix anywhere. > > > > > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It > > > does not seem > > > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draf= t. > > > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a > > > parameter / this is > > > > a parameter" > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion > > > about the > > > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The > > > current text in > > > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, > although some > > > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to > the > > > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific > opinion > > > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as > Kiran > > > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is neede= d > > > in the NS-DT > > > > documents. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > > > ] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > > > >> Halpern > > > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > >> >; TEA= S > > > WG > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > >> > > > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is > > > useful, I > > > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You > are > > > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest = of > > > the WG. > > > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > > > >> > > > > >> Yours, > > > > >> Joel > > > > >> > > > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > >>> Hi Joel, > > > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is > > > included in > > > > >>> the > > > > >> framework first. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text > > > that they > > > > >>> are not > > > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the > > > purpose of > > > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the > > > scope of > > > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when > realizing a > > > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Thanks > > > > >>> Kiran > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > >>>> >; > > TEAS > > > WG > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last > part > > > of the > > > > appendix. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Yours, > > > > >>>> Joel > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard > > > further > > > > >>>>> if they > > > > >>>> were convincing. > > > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > > > >>>>> Thanks > > > > >>>>> Kiran > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >>>>>> From: Teas > > > On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >; TEAS WG > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the emai= l > > > list, I > > > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG > > document. > > > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Yours, > > > > >>>>>> Joel > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> All, > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS > working > > > > >>>>>>> group > > > > >>>>>> document. > > > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" > or > > > "no/do > > > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your > > > reservations > > > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to > provide > > > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document > is > > > a WG > > > > >> document. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for > > > vacation > > > > >> season). > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ietf.org > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= r > > g%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > > f > > > > >>>>>> utur > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ewei.com > > > > > > om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a35 > > 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > > 9 > > > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > > > 2B > > > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w > > > > >>>>>> .i > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > etf.org > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.or= g > > %2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DHe3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclCTD7 > > 12p5M%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02 > > %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > > > u > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > turewei.com > > > > > > ei.com%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea > > 1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0 > > %7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FBPG > > fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d844 > > 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > > > 01 > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > > > G > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > > > 0 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ietf.org > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= r > > g%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > > f > > > > >>>> utur > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ewei.com > > > > > > om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=3D0>%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659a > > c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > > 9 > > > > >>>> c753a1d > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > > > > BL > > > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Teas mailing list > > > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .i > > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > urewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c > > 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7y5PXKjGP > > WZBvHzDObgm3N64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > > > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > ur > > > > > ewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75 > > 3a1d > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7y5PXKjGPWZBvHz > > DObgm3N > > > 64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ___________________________________________ > > > Luis M. Contreras > > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > > > > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --000000000000e2011505ad6b7e69 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kiran,
I have to admit that I'm confused by the= =C2=A0last paragraph in your note.
First, you agree that isolatio= n interpreted is not observable (though I am not sure what quote marks arou= nd directly signify). But then you add "will rely on other means of mo= nitoring". Isn't any type of monitoring, in fact, a method of a di= rect observation?
Also, I sense that one of the=C2=A0motivations= =C2=A0behind using the term isolation is to differentiate between physical = and virtual instances that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a lin= k in the overlay network. If that is the case, perhaps=C2=A0we can avoid th= e contention around the use of the term isolation as SLO and instead add a = parameter that can have two values, physical and virtual?

Regards,
Greg

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran = Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com<= /a>> wrote:
H= i Joel,
Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolation is obs= ervable.=C2=A0

That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with= in the context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you gave= a feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we all completel= y agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly.

In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could also be= very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated from (or s= hould have no interference with) other traffic".
This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, we cann= ot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define 'isolation' then= that can be a container in NBI. One common use case where customer could a= sk this is financial institutions or critical infrastructure explicitly ask= ing for a (or a set of) physical ports or links.

The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer could ex= plicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing transpo= rt slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those asks.

An alternative to deleting the text maybe=C2=A0 - don=E2=80=99t use term is= olation but describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. And maybe = clearly say this is not 'directly' observable and will rely on othe= r means of monitoring that are case specific such as mapping physical port = counters to service counters etc.

-Kiran

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM
> To: Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy)
> <jie.dong@= huawei.com>
> Cc: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; LUIS MIGUEL
> CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com<= /a>>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> Luis, I think I disagree with you.
> Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about isol= ation
> properties.
> But about whether it belongs in this document.
>
> I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and yo= ur team
> worry about many forms of isolation.=C2=A0 Many of which do not appear= in the
> eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion).=C2=A0 And= many of which
> do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces.
>
> The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation.=
> They were not able to do so.=C2=A0 The text they now have tries to cla= im utility,
> claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in design= ing a
> service.
>
> "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many = different
> properties.=C2=A0 For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do hav= e in the
> definitions) is a form of isolation.=C2=A0 A delay variation commitmen= t is a form of
> isolation.=C2=A0 But as a term on its own, separate from these paramet= ers, "isolation"
> does not add value to this document.
>
> Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete.=
> We produce useful pieces.=C2=A0 You put them together.=C2=A0 As an ope= rator you add
> your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you b= uild and
> deliver service.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote:
> > Hi Jie, Joel, all,
> >
> > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically rel= ated
> > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be<= br> > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport slic= es.
> >
> > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, co= uld
> > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and = for
> > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in= the
> > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies<= br> > > through the SBI of the TSC.
> >
> > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transp= ort
> > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective.
> >
> > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation=C2=A0(as an= annex=C2=A0or
> > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be alway= s
> > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition t= o
> > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport=
> > slicing in any other document.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Luis
> >
> >
> > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy)
> > (<jie= .dong@huawei.com
> > <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>) escribi=C3=B3:
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Joel,
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your clarification about the proced= ure.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What I meant is to provide some background abo= ut the design team's
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion, which may help the WG to review an= d give comments on
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this draft. Of course the decision will be mad= e by the WG.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the reasons of keeping the isolation di= scussion in this draft
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that isolation has been considered as one o= f the characteristics
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of network slicing in most of the related stan= dards and
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publications, and it would be incomplete if th= e definition draft
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not touch this. And in IETF history isola= tion has been
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as one requirement of VPNs, the dis= cussion is necessary
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for explaining the relationship and difference= between network slice
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph= of the appendix, it
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tries to separate the requirements on isolatio= n from several
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible realization mechanism, which makes th= is description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonably generic.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jie
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelha= lpern.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>]
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>; Kiran Makhijani
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <kiranm@futurewei.com <mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; = Vishnu
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pavan Beeram
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>&g= t;; TEAS WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The consensus of the design team is rele= vant as a recommendation
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for wh= ether the WG should
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree.=C2=A0 In
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > terms of WG adoption, the design team dr= aft has the same status
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as any
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > other individual draft. The WG comes to = its conclusion.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is no obligation for the WG to ret= ain the text from the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is= under no obligation to retain
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the last
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > paragraph of the appendix anywhere.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen any good argument for re= taining the text.=C2=A0 It
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not seem
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to add to or even fit with the purpose o= f the definitions draft.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If anything, it is confusing at it seems= to say "this is not a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameter / this is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a parameter"
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) w= rote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > In the design team there were sever= al rounds of discussion
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > content in the appendix and where it sho= uld be placed. The
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current text in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the appendix reflects the consensus of t= he design team, although some
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > minor edits were not included yet.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As for whether some of the text in = appendix will be moved to the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > framework document, currently the design= team has no specific opinion
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > about this, and feedbacks from WG are ap= preciated. While as Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mentioned, description and discussion ab= out isolation is needed
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the NS-DT
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > documents.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jie
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> -----Original Message-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Joel M.=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Halpern
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7= :00 AM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com<= /a>>>; TEAS
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption= -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice= -definition - Appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Since I do not think that the m= aterial in the appendix is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, I
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> for one will not push for addin= g it to the Framework.=C2=A0 You are
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> welcome to dabate adding it to = the framework with the rest of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> But it does not belong in the d= efinitions draft.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Mak= hijani wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am ok to remove some part= from Appendix only if it is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0included in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> framework first.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> But for the TSRE, I have pr= oposed clearer and shorter text
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that they
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> are not
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> visible to the consumer of a tr= ansport slices. One of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0purpose of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> definitions document is 'de= fine' common terminology in the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slices, and all we ar= e saying is that when realizing a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slice, things TSEs wi= ll map to are called TSREs.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am not able to see the dr= awback of saying so.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Thanks
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> -----Original Message--= ---
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Dire= ct <jmh.= direct@joelhalpern.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August = 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <= ;kiranm@futurewei= .com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailt= o:vishnupavan@gm= ail.com>>;
> TEAS
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG = adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transpo= rt-slice-definition
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> No, your replies did no= t in any way address my concerns.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> I would suggest removin= g the references to TSRE and more
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> importantly removing ap= pendix A.1, or at least the last part
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > appendix.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, K= iran Makhijani wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> After having replie= d to your comments, we have not heard
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0further
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> if they
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> were convincing.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Please let us know.=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Thanks
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> -----Original M= essage-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> From: Teas <= teas-bounces@iet= f.org
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel= M. Halpern
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday= , August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pava= n Beeram <vis= hnupavan@gmail.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>; TEAS WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [T= eas] WG adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas= -transport-slice-definition
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Without repairs= to the issues I have raised on the email
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0list, I
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> do not think th= is document should be adopted as a WG
> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> We are close, b= ut not quite there.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11= :50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> All,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> This is sta= rt of a *three* week poll on making
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-= teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> group
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Please send= email to the list indicating "yes/support" or
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no/do
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> not support= ". If indicating no, please state your
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reservations
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> with the do= cument. If yes, please also feel free to provide
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> comments yo= u'd like to see addressed once the document is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> The poll en= ds September 9th (extra week to account for
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vacation
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> season).
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Pavan and L= ou
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> ___________= ____________________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas mailin= g list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.saf= elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.or
> g%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748= c
> 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 7336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo<= br> > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&am= p;amp;da
> ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > f
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> utur
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safe= links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c
> om%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174=
> 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C
> 637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9s= N
> G%2BmbpcA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a3= 5
> 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> c753a1d
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 2B
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ= 7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> _______________= ________________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas mailing li= st
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> .i
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > etf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.saf= elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.org
> %2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c=
> 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 7336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DHe3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclCTD= 7
> 12p5M%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;= data=3D02
> %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > u
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > turewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safel= inks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fturew
> ei.com<= /a>%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea
> 1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0
> %7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FBPG=
> fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d8= 44
> 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 01
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > G
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> ___________________= ____________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.p= rotection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.saf= elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.or
> g%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748= c
> 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 7336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo<= br> > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&am= p;amp;da
> ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > f
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> utur
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safe= links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c
> om%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174=
> 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C
> 637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9s= N
> G%2BmbpcA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659= a
> c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> c753a1d
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BL
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE= 6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> _______________________________= ________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> https://nam11.safelink= s.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i
> etf.or= g%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut
> ure= wei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c
> 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7y5PXKjGP<= br> > WZBvHzDObgm3N64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________________________= _
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Teas mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >
> >
> https://nam11.safelinks.= protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.
> >
> ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > ur
> >
> ewei.= com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75
> 3a1d
> >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7y5PXKjGPWZBvHz<= br> > DObgm3N
> > 64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___________________________________________
> > Luis M. Contreras
> > con= treras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>
> > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com
> > <mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>= ;
> > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
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Halpern" , "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0Wrkz00zR3llEmclZBr6kwAjKlB5J0AgAADA4CAAFM2AIAABnWAgABzYQCAAE60QIAAMZsAgAAhkFA= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 01:28:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [67.188.27.49] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9d3aeb5a-3439-443d-d5ce-08d8463aa1b7 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2247: 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--_000_BYAPR13MB2437546A57078A1097D47F83D9580BYAPR13MB2437namp_-- From nobody Fri Aug 21 18:38:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BAA43A080F for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.949, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3wJqoZx930-D for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila1.tigertech.net (maila1.tigertech.net [208.80.4.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06E783A080B for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BYLcw5HPTz4TFb5; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:38:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1598060304; bh=lc+Vks/jdM9m6tbwoY/tjq+nb260+Zip8C7CRULkqPo=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DxI3O9+DKSbSUEyj3UdpMikCwu0lKUtFcDnpknZBi+U0YHvBCV+4ub3vEdWdoa23x wDwhBUbT6svUm1vgySGRllgQahQ0yueadnVvXwC+D10TFimJmAHUdJ0DQC+HwSeh0a nh5LBegJbVLztYV3dIpDznt+2tBUDGfElEFBno2U= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a1.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila1.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BYLcv1fztz4TJ8d; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:38:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Kiran Makhijani , Greg Mirsky Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <6d3648ba-525c-21c8-b88a-695170da0dc2@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:38:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 01:38:27 -0000 I think Kiran that you are missing the point. What actually matters are the measurables, not the inferences. Sure, in the sales discussions if a customer asks "will my traffic be protected from competing traffic?" the answer will be "Yes, of course." When it comes time to write the contract and the SLA, which uses the SLOs, the contract terms will say things like Traffic X will always have avaiable bandwidth Y. [unstated, but assumed is "regardless of competing traffic"] or Traffic Z will be delivered with delay variation less than A. [unstated, but assumed is "regardless of competing traffic"] Isolation is not something special. And it is not something that can be written into a customer agreement as a freestanding term. Unless it is related to a measurable, none of the customer, the operator, or a judge trying to enforce the contract will know whether it has been met. Similarly, what goes over the (northbound) interface this document is concerned with has to be measurables. Otherwise they are not deliverable. (And this applies to any derived southbound as well.) The text in Appendix A simply sserves to confuse readers as to what we are doing. Please, remove it. Yours, Joel On 8/21/2020 9:28 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Please see inline > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:21 PM > *To:* Kiran Makhijani > *Cc:* Joel M. Halpern ; Luis M. Contreras > ; Dongjie (Jimmy) ; LUIS > MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO ; > Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > Hi Kiran, > > I have to admit that I'm confused by the last paragraph in your note. > > First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not observable (though I > am not sure what quote marks around directly signify). But then you add > "will rely on other means of monitoring". Isn't any type of monitoring, > in fact, a method of a direct observation? > > */[KM] It is not direct monitoring, it is an inference from some other > piece of information. (I was just thinking out loud, how could you prove > it)/* > > Also, I sense that one of the motivations behind using the term > isolation is to differentiate between physical and virtual instances > that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in the overlay > network. If that is the case, perhaps we can avoid the contention around > the use of the term isolation as SLO > > */[KM] it is not an SLO, it is an additional ask or specification./* > > and instead add a parameter that can have two values, physical and virtual? > > */[KM] Yes, it could work but it is too specific to the example, what if > there were others. I prefer something along the lines of > traffic-separation./* > > Regards, > > Greg > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran Makhijani > wrote: > > Hi Joel, > Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolation > is observable. > > That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with in > the context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you > gave a feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we > all completely agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly. > > In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could > also be very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated > from (or should have no interference with) other traffic". > This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, > we cannot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define > 'isolation' then that can be a container in NBI. One common use case > where customer could ask this is financial institutions or critical > infrastructure explicitly asking for a (or a set of) physical ports > or links. > > The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer > could explicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing > transport slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those asks. > > An alternative to deleting the text maybe  - don’t use term > isolation but describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. > And maybe clearly say this is not 'directly' observable and will > rely on other means of monitoring that are case specific such as > mapping physical port counters to service counters etc. > > -Kiran > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel M. Halpern > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM > > To: Luis M. Contreras >; Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > > Cc: Kiran Makhijani >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >; TEAS WG > >; LUIS MIGUEL > > CONTRERAS MURILLO > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > Luis, I think I disagree with you. > > Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about > isolation > > properties. > > But about whether it belongs in this document. > > > > I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you > and your team > > worry about many forms of isolation.  Many of which do not appear > in the > > eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion).  And > many of which > > do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces. > > > > The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of > isolation. > > They were not able to do so.  The text they now have tries to > claim utility, > > claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in > designing a > > service. > > > > "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many different > > properties.  For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do > have in the > > definitions) is a form of isolation.  A delay variation > commitment is a form of > > isolation.  But as a term on its own, separate from these > parameters, "isolation" > > does not add value to this document. > > > > Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee > complete. > > We produce useful pieces.  You put them together.  As an operator > you add > > your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and > you build and > > deliver service. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > > > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > > > > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically > related > > > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be > > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport > slices. > > > > > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, > could > > > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, > and for > > > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved > in the > > > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies > > > through the SBI of the TSC. > > > > > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on > transport > > > slicing incomplete from an operator’s perspective. > > > > > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an > annex or > > > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always > > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > > > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport > > > slicing in any other document. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > ( > > > >>) > escribió: > > > > > >     Hi Joel, > > > > > >     Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > > > > >     What I meant is to provide some background about the design > team's > > >     discussion, which may help the WG to review and give > comments on > > >     this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > > > > >     One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in > this draft > > >     is that isolation has been considered as one of the > characteristics > > >     of network slicing in most of the related standards and > > >     publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition > draft > > >     does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been > > >     considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is > necessary > > >     for explaining the relationship and difference between > network slice > > >     and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the > appendix, it > > >     tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several > > >     possible realization mechanism, which makes this description > > >     reasonably generic. > > > > > >     Best regards, > > >     Jie > > > > > > > > >      > -----Original Message----- > > >      > From: Joel Halpern Direct > [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > > >      >] > > >      > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > >      > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) > > >     >>; > Kiran Makhijani > > >      > > >>; Vishnu > > >     Pavan Beeram > > >      > > >>; TEAS WG > > >      >> > > >      > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >     draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > >      > Appendix > > >      > > > >      > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a > recommendation > > >     to the > > >      > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should > > >     agree.  In > > >      > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same > status > > >     as any > > >      > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > >      > > > >      > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text > from the > > >     appendix > > >      > anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation > to retain > > >     the last > > >      > paragraph of the appendix anywhere. > > >      > > > >      > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the > text.  It > > >     does not seem > > >      > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the > definitions draft. > > >      > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is > not a > > >     parameter / this is > > >      > a parameter" > > >      > > > >      > Yours, > > >      > Joel > > >      > > > >      > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > >      > > Hi Joel, > > >      > > > > >      > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion > > >     about the > > >      > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The > > >     current text in > > >      > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, > although some > > >      > minor edits were not included yet. > > >      > > > > >      > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be > moved to the > > >      > framework document, currently the design team has no > specific opinion > > >      > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While > as Kiran > > >      > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is > needed > > >     in the NS-DT > > >      > documents. > > >      > > > > >      > > Best regards, > > >      > > Jie > > >      > > > > >      > >> -----Original Message----- > > >      > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > > > >      >] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > >      > >> Halpern > > >      > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > >      > >> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >      >>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >      > >> > >>; TEAS > > >     WG > >> > > >      > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >      > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > >      > >> > > >      > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is > > >     useful, I > > >      > >> for one will not push for adding it to the > Framework.  You are > > >      > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the > rest of > > >     the WG. > > >      > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > >      > >> > > >      > >> Yours, > > >      > >> Joel > > >      > >> > > >      > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >      > >>> Hi Joel, > > >      > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is > > >     included in > > >      > >>> the > > >      > >> framework first. > > >      > >>> > > >      > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and > shorter text > > >     that they > > >      > >>> are not > > >      > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the > > >     purpose of > > >      > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology > in the > > >     scope of > > >      > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when > realizing a > > >      > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called > TSREs. > > >      > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > >      > >>> > > >      > >>> Thanks > > >      > >>> Kiran > > >      > >>> > > >      > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >      > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > >      >> > > >      > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > >      > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >      >>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >      > >>>> >>; > > TEAS > > >     WG > >> > > >      > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >      > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my > concerns. > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and > more > > >      > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the > last part > > >     of the > > >      > appendix. > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >>>> Yours, > > >      > >>>> Joel > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >      > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > >      > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not > heard > > >     further > > >      > >>>>> if they > > >      > >>>> were convincing. > > >      > >>>>> Please let us know. > > >      > >>>>> Thanks > > >      > >>>>> Kiran > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >      > >>>>>> From: Teas > > >      >> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > >      > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > >      > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >      >>; TEAS WG > > >      > >>>>>> > >> > > >      > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >      > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on > the email > > >     list, I > > >      > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG > > document. > > >      > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> Yours, > > >      > >>>>>> Joel > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > >      > >>>>>>> All, > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > >      > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a > TEAS working > > >      > >>>>>>> group > > >      > >>>>>> document. > > >      > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating > "yes/support" or > > >     "no/do > > >      > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your > > >     reservations > > >      > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free > to provide > > >      > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the > document is > > >     a WG > > >      > >> document. > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to > account for > > >     vacation > > >      > >> season). > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >      > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >      > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >      > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > >      > w. > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > ietf.org > > > > > > > > g%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=YEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > >      > f > > >      > >>>>>> utur > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > ewei.com > > > > > > > > om%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=PDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a35 > > 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > >      > 9 > > >      > >>>>>> c753a1d > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2FGSlz2Q4% > > >      > 2B > > >      > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > >      > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=0 > > >      > >>>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >      > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >      > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > >      > w > > >      > >>>>>> .i > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > etf.org > > > > > > > > %2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=He3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclCTD7 > > 12p5M%3D&reserved=0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02 > > %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > >      > u > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > turewei.com > > > > > > > > ei.com > %2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea > > 1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0 > > %7C637336213276038270&sdata=7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FBPG > > fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&reserved=0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d844 > > 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > >      > 01 > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=%2F > > >      > G > > >      > >>>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved= > > >      > 0 > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >      > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > >      > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww > > >      > w. > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > ietf.org > > > > > > > > g%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=YEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > >      > f > > >      > >>>> utur > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > ewei.com > > > > > > > > om%2F&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > %7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=PDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=0>%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659a > > c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > >      > 9 > > >      > >>>> c753a1d > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=MZQKraVa8fj3 > > >      > BL > > >      > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > >      > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=0 > > >      > >>>>> > > >      > >> > > >      > >> _______________________________________________ > > >      > >> Teas mailing list > > >      > >> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >      > >> > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > > etf.org > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > urewei.com > %7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c > > 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=7y5PXKjGP > > WZBvHzDObgm3N64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=0 > > >     _______________________________________________ > > >     Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. > > > > > ietf.org > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > ur > > > > > ewei.com > %7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75 > > 3a1d > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=7y5PXKjGPWZBvHz > > DObgm3N > > > 64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=0 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ___________________________________________ > > > Luis M. Contreras > > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > > > > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > > > > > > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > From nobody Fri Aug 21 18:41:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246663A0817 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2aclas1hHgrZ for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22ADC3A0819 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id w25so3781134ljo.12 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cGs3xlkJYg1movxeNiX5UKzkSaQ33oAeGqL91mTe2TU=; b=HZ4MzN9b/qQbxHxYSdF+CmQgo3cpB2zYZeQEU/L5AynnFdJlOBNe+Zuc02hXa2oZnM b1BGZAWAEWwYoGCbJZ21wkLfi8jlV/6dJySXgF6IzDz67+tmwGD3RnIoX2mMaiRs3M9e WknkvhYOHTlil79e2MXEjt3BwGygFJbsjfceYG1mEgNkp3Zdq6iAG53dTw6JQR2GwhvM Ac1hffIXRKkbXqiBX/mPyDlgC3SqXDMMjRxDeyhU7dlcR6suAOYXx72TVw7U5b5UCWRu LgAh+DMWoyc6SBEczOFNUcgoC+NTAlYNYmsOXBKkpxErl9ZKC3YU3PB1CVF+C2q9U5Ck /MjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cGs3xlkJYg1movxeNiX5UKzkSaQ33oAeGqL91mTe2TU=; b=Pm3udBPQiQWqdL15EOExKZUr0oHCbFnqR8IuoxU67AuDiF6KbTtLyg5vbdcL6RwcBQ wr+D1HimjNy604rRy1K4XEx0hD9D4qGMjtOn687xS7jPKkDX1i3rq7gSEr9hn9hnPqUB P5ylrZYbzeHToki08Y3vxZ1XyN2PGJVB/EuwtORiauEIi+d+YeA976Qcm1rBmPR4tsic A1AoEGpCD/awXmMhwf1gq7IrsaXa5qZ5ZWf67lOOo2egy1rJOlH7/wxmJxkSkShigK2W Ky+WHQGENY01mN2mKx08KttI3b0WktjGnOcBy7mFqS9zG9ti9hwJG+o+9X6bkHnRMVcp uWzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530QkDW06YqYIwce+nG9tDcBUQNqhxGpRr6iOgEHrZfI5TCK+a82 C3uoMUoHI7P5DSbRuqjCrUtIQ8ElnZQqRp7tH8A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwQGzcK0VTPAwg/w0wHBO2xedwMf/beFtIjehT8XWiVLY3I+Z7mq6i6VNg3KErpoBpFKU1AtSX/HoGhMdG9qhg= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9f43:: with SMTP id v3mr2700285ljk.266.1598060473087; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:41:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Kiran Makhijani Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3fc5205ad6d72ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 01:41:20 -0000 --000000000000d3fc5205ad6d72ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kiran, thank you for your response. If we cannot give a formal definition to the isolation, then I, strongly believing in Occam razor principle, suggest taking it out until we better understand what it is. Regards, Greg On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:28 PM Kiran Makhijani wrote: > Please see inline > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:21 PM > *To:* Kiran Makhijani > *Cc:* Joel M. Halpern ; Luis M. Contreras < > contreras.ietf@gmail.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy) ; LUIS > MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO ; > Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > Hi Kiran, > > I have to admit that I'm confused by the last paragraph in your note. > > First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not observable (though I a= m > not sure what quote marks around directly signify). But then you add "wil= l > rely on other means of monitoring". Isn't any type of monitoring, in fact= , > a method of a direct observation? > > *[KM] It is not direct monitoring, it is an inference from some other > piece of information. (I was just thinking out loud, how could you prove > it)* > > Also, I sense that one of the motivations behind using the term isolation > is to differentiate between physical and virtual instances that provide a > service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in the overlay network. If that i= s > the case, perhaps we can avoid the contention around the use of the term > isolation as SLO > > *[KM] it is not an SLO, it is an additional ask or specification.* > > and instead add a parameter that can have two values, physical and virtua= l? > > *[KM] Yes, it could work but it is too specific to the example, what if > there were others. I prefer something along the lines of > traffic-separation.* > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran Makhijani > wrote: > > Hi Joel, > Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolation is > observable. > > That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with in the > context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you gave a > feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we all completely > agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly. > > In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could also > be very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated from (or > should have no interference with) other traffic". > This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, we > cannot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define 'isolation' then > that can be a container in NBI. One common use case where customer could > ask this is financial institutions or critical infrastructure explicitly > asking for a (or a set of) physical ports or links. > > The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer could > explicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing transport > slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those asks. > > An alternative to deleting the text maybe - don=E2=80=99t use term isola= tion but > describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. And maybe clearly sa= y > this is not 'directly' observable and will rely on other means of > monitoring that are case specific such as mapping physical port counters = to > service counters etc. > > -Kiran > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel M. Halpern > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM > > To: Luis M. Contreras ; Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > Cc: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > ; TEAS WG ; LUIS MIGUEL > > CONTRERAS MURILLO > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > Luis, I think I disagree with you. > > Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about > isolation > > properties. > > But about whether it belongs in this document. > > > > I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and you= r > team > > worry about many forms of isolation. Many of which do not appear in th= e > > eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion). And many > of which > > do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces. > > > > The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation. > > They were not able to do so. The text they now have tries to claim > utility, > > claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in > designing a > > service. > > > > "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many different > > properties. For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do have in t= he > > definitions) is a form of isolation. A delay variation commitment is a > form of > > isolation. But as a term on its own, separate from these parameters, > "isolation" > > does not add value to this document. > > > > Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete. > > We produce useful pieces. You put them together. As an operator you a= dd > > your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you > build and > > deliver service. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > > > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > > > > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related > > > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be > > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport slices. > > > > > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could > > > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for > > > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the > > > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies > > > through the SBI of the TSC. > > > > > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport > > > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective. > > > > > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an annex or > > > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always > > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > > > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport > > > slicing in any other document. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > ( > > >) escribi=C3=B3: > > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > > > > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team'= s > > > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on > > > this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > > > > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this > draft > > > is that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristi= cs > > > of network slicing in most of the related standards and > > > publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition draft > > > does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been > > > considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessar= y > > > for explaining the relationship and difference between network > slice > > > and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, i= t > > > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several > > > possible realization mechanism, which makes this description > > > reasonably generic. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > > > ] > > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) > > >; Kiran Makhijani > > > > >; Vishnu > > > Pavan Beeram > > > > >; TEAS W= G > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > > > Appendix > > > > > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendati= on > > > to the > > > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should > > > agree. In > > > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same statu= s > > > as any > > > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the > > > appendix > > > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to > retain > > > the last > > > > paragraph of the appendix anywhere. > > > > > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It > > > does not seem > > > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draf= t. > > > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a > > > parameter / this is > > > > a parameter" > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion > > > about the > > > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The > > > current text in > > > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, > although some > > > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to > the > > > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific > opinion > > > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as > Kiran > > > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is neede= d > > > in the NS-DT > > > > documents. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > > > ] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > > > >> Halpern > > > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > >> >; TEA= S > > > WG > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > >> > > > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is > > > useful, I > > > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You > are > > > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest = of > > > the WG. > > > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > > > >> > > > > >> Yours, > > > > >> Joel > > > > >> > > > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > >>> Hi Joel, > > > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is > > > included in > > > > >>> the > > > > >> framework first. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text > > > that they > > > > >>> are not > > > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the > > > purpose of > > > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the > > > scope of > > > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when > realizing a > > > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Thanks > > > > >>> Kiran > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > > > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani > > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > >>>> >; > > TEAS > > > WG > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last > part > > > of the > > > > appendix. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Yours, > > > > >>>> Joel > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard > > > further > > > > >>>>> if they > > > > >>>> were convincing. > > > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > > > >>>>> Thanks > > > > >>>>> Kiran > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > >>>>>> From: Teas > > > On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >; TEAS WG > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the emai= l > > > list, I > > > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG > > document. > > > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Yours, > > > > >>>>>> Joel > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> All, > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS > working > > > > >>>>>>> group > > > > >>>>>> document. > > > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" > or > > > "no/do > > > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your > > > reservations > > > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to > provide > > > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document > is > > > a WG > > > > >> document. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for > > > vacation > > > > >> season). > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w. > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ietf.org > > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= r > > g%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > > f > > > > >>>>>> utur > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ewei.com > > > > > > > om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a35 > > 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > > 9 > > > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > > > 2B > > > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w > > > > >>>>>> .i > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > etf.org > > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.or= g > > %2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DHe3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclCTD7 > > 12p5M%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02 > > %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > > > u > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > turewei.com > > > > > > > ei.com > > %2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea > > 1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0 > > %7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FBPG > > fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d844 > > 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > > > 01 > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > > > G > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > > > 0 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > w. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ietf.org > > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= r > > g%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea1748c > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo > > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&da > > ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > > f > > > > >>>> utur > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > ewei.com > > > > > > > om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea174 > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C > > 637336213276038270&sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9sN > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=3D0>%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659a > > c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > > 9 > > > > >>>> c753a1d > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >> > > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > > > > BL > > > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > >>>>> > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Teas mailing list > > > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > > > >> > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .i > > etf.org > > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > urewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c > > 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7y5PXKjGP > > WZBvHzDObgm3N64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= . > > > > > ietf.org > > %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40fut > > ur > > > > > ewei.com > > %7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75 > > 3a1d > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7y5PXKjGPWZBvHz > > DObgm3N > > > 64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ___________________________________________ > > > Luis M. Contreras > > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > > > > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > --000000000000d3fc5205ad6d72ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Kiran,
thank you for your response.
If we= cannot give a formal definition to the isolation, then I, strongly believi= ng in Occam razor principle, suggest taking it out until we better understa= nd what it is.

Regards,
Greg
=
On Fri= , Aug 21, 2020 at 6:28 PM Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com> wrote:

Please see inline

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:21 PM
To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>
Cc: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com= >; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <= luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m <vishnupava= n@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

Hi Kiran,

I have to admit that I'm confused by the=C2=A0la= st paragraph in your note.

First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not o= bservable (though I am not sure what quote marks around directly signify). = But then you add "will rely on other means of monitoring". Isn= 9;t any type of monitoring, in fact, a method of a direct observation?

[KM] It is not direct monitoring, it is an inf= erence from some other piece of information. (I was just thinking out loud,= how could you prove it)

Also, I sense that one of the=C2=A0motivations=C2=A0= behind using the term isolation is to differentiate between physical and vi= rtual instances that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in t= he overlay network. If that is the case, perhaps=C2=A0we can avoid the contention around the use of the term isolation as SLO

[KM] it is not an SLO, it is an additional ask= or specification.

and instead add a parameter that can have two values= , physical and virtual?

[KM] Yes, it could work but it is too specific= to the example, what if there were others. I prefer something along the li= nes of traffic-separation.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

Hi Joel,
Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolation is obs= ervable.=C2=A0

That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with= in the context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you gave= a feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we all completel= y agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly.

In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could also be= very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated from (or s= hould have no interference with) other traffic".
This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, we cann= ot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define 'isolation' then= that can be a container in NBI. One common use case where customer could a= sk this is financial institutions or critical infrastructure explicitly asking for a (or a set of) physical ports or lin= ks.

The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer could ex= plicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing transpo= rt slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those asks.

An alternative to deleting the text maybe=C2=A0 - don=E2=80=99t use term is= olation but describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. And maybe = clearly say this is not 'directly' observable and will rely on othe= r means of monitoring that are case specific such as mapping physical port counters to service counters etc.

-Kiran

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM
> To: Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy)
> <jie.dong@= huawei.com>
> Cc: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; LUIS MIGUEL
> CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com<= /a>>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> Luis, I think I disagree with you.
> Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about isol= ation
> properties.
> But about whether it belongs in this document.
>
> I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and yo= ur team
> worry about many forms of isolation.=C2=A0 Many of which do not appear= in the
> eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion).=C2=A0 And= many of which
> do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces.
>
> The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation.=
> They were not able to do so.=C2=A0 The text they now have tries to cla= im utility,
> claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in design= ing a
> service.
>
> "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many = different
> properties.=C2=A0 For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do hav= e in the
> definitions) is a form of isolation.=C2=A0 A delay variation commitmen= t is a form of
> isolation.=C2=A0 But as a term on its own, separate from these paramet= ers, "isolation"
> does not add value to this document.
>
> Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete.=
> We produce useful pieces.=C2=A0 You put them together.=C2=A0 As an ope= rator you add
> your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you b= uild and
> deliver service.
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote:
> > Hi Jie, Joel, all,
> >
> > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically rel= ated
> > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be<= br> > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport slic= es.
> >
> > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, co= uld
> > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and = for
> > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in= the
> > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies<= br> > > through the SBI of the TSC.
> >
> > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transp= ort
> > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective.
> >
> > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation=C2=A0(as an= annex=C2=A0or
> > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be alway= s
> > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition t= o
> > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport=
> > slicing in any other document.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Luis
> >
> >
> > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy)
> > (<jie= .dong@huawei.com
> > <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>) escribi=C3=B3:
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Joel,
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your clarification about the proced= ure.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What I meant is to provide some background abo= ut the design team's
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion, which may help the WG to review an= d give comments on
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this draft. Of course the decision will be mad= e by the WG.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the reasons of keeping the isolation di= scussion in this draft
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that isolation has been considered as one o= f the characteristics
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of network slicing in most of the related stan= dards and
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publications, and it would be incomplete if th= e definition draft
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not touch this. And in IETF history isola= tion has been
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as one requirement of VPNs, the dis= cussion is necessary
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for explaining the relationship and difference= between network slice
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph= of the appendix, it
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tries to separate the requirements on isolatio= n from several
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible realization mechanism, which makes th= is description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonably generic.
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jie
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelha= lpern.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>]
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>; Kiran Makhijani
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <kiranm@futurewei.com <mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; = Vishnu
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pavan Beeram
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>&g= t;; TEAS WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The consensus of the design team is rele= vant as a recommendation
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for wh= ether the WG should
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree.=C2=A0 In
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > terms of WG adoption, the design team dr= aft has the same status
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as any
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > other individual draft. The WG comes to = its conclusion.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is no obligation for the WG to ret= ain the text from the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is= under no obligation to retain
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the last
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > paragraph of the appendix anywhere.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen any good argument for re= taining the text.=C2=A0 It
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not seem
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to add to or even fit with the purpose o= f the definitions draft.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If anything, it is confusing at it seems= to say "this is not a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameter / this is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a parameter"
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) w= rote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > In the design team there were sever= al rounds of discussion
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > content in the appendix and where it sho= uld be placed. The
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current text in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the appendix reflects the consensus of t= he design team, although some
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > minor edits were not included yet.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As for whether some of the text in = appendix will be moved to the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > framework document, currently the design= team has no specific opinion
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > about this, and feedbacks from WG are ap= preciated. While as Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mentioned, description and discussion ab= out isolation is needed
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the NS-DT
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > documents.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jie
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> -----Original Message-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Joel M.=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Halpern
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7= :00 AM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com<= /a>>>; TEAS
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption= -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice= -definition - Appendix
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Since I do not think that the m= aterial in the appendix is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, I
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> for one will not push for addin= g it to the Framework.=C2=A0 You are
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> welcome to dabate adding it to = the framework with the rest of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> But it does not belong in the d= efinitions draft.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Mak= hijani wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am ok to remove some part= from Appendix only if it is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0included in
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> framework first.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> But for the TSRE, I have pr= oposed clearer and shorter text
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that they
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> are not
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> visible to the consumer of a tr= ansport slices. One of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0purpose of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> definitions document is 'de= fine' common terminology in the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slices, and all we ar= e saying is that when realizing a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slice, things TSEs wi= ll map to are called TSREs.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am not able to see the dr= awback of saying so.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Thanks
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> -----Original Message--= ---
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Dire= ct <jmh.= direct@joelhalpern.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August = 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <= ;kiranm@futurewei= .com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailt= o:vishnupavan@gm= ail.com>>;
> TEAS
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG = adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transpo= rt-slice-definition
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> No, your replies did no= t in any way address my concerns.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> I would suggest removin= g the references to TSRE and more
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> importantly removing ap= pendix A.1, or at least the last part
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > appendix.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, K= iran Makhijani wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> After having replie= d to your comments, we have not heard
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0further
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> if they
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> were convincing.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Please let us know.=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Thanks
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Kiran
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> -----Original M= essage-----
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> From: Teas <= teas-bounces@iet= f.org
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel= M. Halpern
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday= , August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pava= n Beeram <vis= hnupavan@gmail.com
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>; TEAS WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [T= eas] WG adoption -
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas= -transport-slice-definition
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Without repairs= to the issues I have raised on the email
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0list, I
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> do not think th= is document should be adopted as a WG
> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> We are close, b= ut not quite there.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Yours,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Joel
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11= :50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> All,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> This is sta= rt of a *three* week poll on making
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-= teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> group
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Please send= email to the list indicating "yes/support" or
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no/do
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> not support= ". If indicating no, please state your
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reservations
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> with the do= cument. If yes, please also feel free to provide
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> comments yo= u'd like to see addressed once the document is
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a WG
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> document.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> The poll en= ds September 9th (extra week to account for
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vacation
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> season).
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Pavan and L= ou
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> ___________= ____________________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas mailin= g list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.o= utlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.or
> g%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c
> 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 7336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DYEYEYBqLKk3v%2BrBZ%2FvEqYRqPq9m1eITo<= br> > eHak5DEVtDQ%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&am= p;amp;da
> ta=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > f
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> utur
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.ou= tlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c
> om%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174
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> 637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9s= N
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> 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> c753a1d
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 2B
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ= 7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> _______________= ________________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas mailing li= st
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> .i
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > etf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.o= utlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.org
> %2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c
> 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63
> 7336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DHe3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclCTD= 7
> 12p5M%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;= data=3D02
> %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > u
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > turewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.out= look.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fturew
> ei.com%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea
> 1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0
> %7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FBPG=
> fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d8= 44
> 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 01
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> ___________________= ____________________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
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> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.o= utlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.or
> g%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c
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> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
> >
> <https://nam11.safelinks.protection.ou= tlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c
> om%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C6e84819cea174
> 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C
> 637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr9s= N
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> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> c753a1d
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BL
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE= 6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> _______________________________= ________________
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f= ut
> urewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c
> 753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7y5PXKjGP<= br> > WZBvHzDObgm3N64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0______________________________________________= _
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Teas mailing list
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
> >
> >
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww= .
> >
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40= fut
> ur
> >
> ewei.com%7C6e84819cea1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75
> 3a1d
> >
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336213276038270&amp;sdata=3D7y5PXKjGPWZBvHz<= br> > DObgm3N
> > 64pexXe8yeS8zH0YpWfNw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___________________________________________
> > Luis M. Contreras
> > con= treras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>
> > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com
> > <mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>= ;
> > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

--000000000000d3fc5205ad6d72ce-- From nobody Fri Aug 21 22:05:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB8C3A0B9E for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:05:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mYduikxJ55kP for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAFD53A0B8E for ; Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 358A2CC5A2CFD88A470A; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 06:05:16 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.97) by lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 06:05:15 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:05:12 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:05:12 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , David Sinicrope , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W34J/WNHjo5UOG7rbDhHZZJ6lByflg//+Xi4CAALyfAP//5h8AgAAsvYCAAVwJYA== Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 05:05:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> , <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> In-Reply-To: <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.169.108] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_df95bfde97614e5b857b4ad4c785c0cehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 05:05:22 -0000 --_000_df95bfde97614e5b857b4ad4c785c0cehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Deborah, Thanks a lot for your comment. As mentioned both in your mail and pervious mails by others and myself, net= work slicing is coupled with the concept of isolation in 5G related communi= ties, such as 3GPP, GSMA, ETSI, etc. Similar to the term "transport" networ= k, IMO it is also important to define or describe "isolation" for the IETF = context, so as to avoid the possible confusion both in and outside IETF. The text in the appendix is trying to give explanation about the isolation = in the context of IETF or "transport" network, and it also tries to separat= e the requirement from realization. As explained in the text, isolation as = a requirement has multi-dimension meanings, it can mean traffic separation = or interference avoidance, etc., and each can be realized by some specific = technologies, providing dedicated resource is just listed as one approach t= o realize some dimension of the requirement. The current text may need some= improvement to better clarify the requirement and the realization separate= ly, while such confusion just shows the necessity of explaining it further = in IETF. Best regards, Jie From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A [mailto:db3546@att.com] Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:51 PM To: David Sinicrope ; Dong= jie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct ; Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi, (speaking as an individual) While the document is in it's early stages, I think it is important to sort= out this use of the term "isolation". Already by use of the term "transpor= t", the scope of this work may be confused with the traditional definition = of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15's transport technolo= gies. Important is to define "transport" carefully for the IETF context, wh= ich I think this document is a good start. Mixing "isolation" with "dedicat= ed resources" is a step back to the traditional definition. As the authors note, the term "isolation" is used in other SDOs, including = 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here's a recent publicly available white = paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requirements from 3GPP for network= slicing: https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_NFV= -EVE012v030101p.pdf In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical res= ources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, security, p= rivacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logical or physical= (and either fully or partly), it is not a "requirement". Physical and virt= ual resources are used with respect to "realize", not define. I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A's example saying a customer = will request "dedicated resources" and saying the solution of using dedicat= ed resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requirements are met, clashes with t= he rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines= resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the aut= hors intended it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context o= f this document to mix the definition of "isolation" with "dedicated resour= ces". While an Appendix, it should not clash with the main document. Best i= s to remove for now. Thanks, Deborah (individual) From: Teas > On Behalf = Of David Sinicrope Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM To: Dongjie (Jimmy) >; Joel= Halpern Direct >; Kiran Makhijani >; = Vishnu Pavan Beeram >; = TEAS WG > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Jie, You note "isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of ne= twork slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it wou= ld be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF h= istory isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discus= sion is necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between ne= twork slice and VPNs." I'm not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references to support t= hese claims? I'm specifically referring to the claim that "most" related s= tandards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic. This has= not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the histor= y of the IETF. If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the tr= affic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or character= istic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or texts u= ntil the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset of= the community. I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask that= it be removed. Thanks, Dave ________________________________ From: Teas > on behalf = of Dongjie (Jimmy) > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi Joel, Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG. One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is = necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network sl= ice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it trie= s to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realizati= on mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. Best regards, Jie > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) >; Ki= ran Makhijani > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definit= ion - > Appendix > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the las= t > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not se= em > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parameter = / this is > a parameter" > > Yours, > Joel > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text i= n > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the NS= -DT > documents. > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. > >> Halpern > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > >> To: Kiran Makhijani = >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >> >; TEAS WG > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > >> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG. > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>> Hi Joel, > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > >>> the > >> framework first. > >>> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that they > >>> are not > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Kiran > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >>>> >; TEAS WG > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > >>>> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of the > appendix. > >>>> > >>>> Yours, > >>>> Joel > >>>> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > >>>>> Hi Joel, > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > >>>>> if they > >>>> were convincing. > >>>>> Please let us know. > >>>>> Thanks > >>>>> Kiran > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Teas > O= n Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram >; TEAS WG > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yours, > >>>>>> Joel > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > >>>>>>> All, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > >>>>>>> group > >>>>>> document. > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > >> document. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > >> season). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e= 472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>>>> utur > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>>>> c753a1d > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > 2B > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e= 472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w > >>>>>> .i > >>>> > >> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > u > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > 01 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > G > >>>>>> > >>>> > >> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > 0 > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e= 472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > w. > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > f > >>>> utur > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9 > >>>> c753a1d > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > BL > >>>> sLRq9T9a > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > >>>>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_df95bfde97614e5b857b4ad4c785c0cehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Deborah,

 

Thanks a lot for your comment.

 

As mentioned both in your mail and pervious mails by others and m= yself, network slicing is coupled with the concept of isolation in 5G relat= ed communities, such as 3GPP, GSMA, ETSI, etc. Similar to the term “transport” network, IMO it is also i= mportant to define or describe “isolation” for the IETF context= , so as to avoid the possible confusion both in and outside IETF.

 

The text in the appendix is trying to give explanation about the = isolation in the context of IETF or “transport” network, and it= also tries to separate the requirement from realization. As explained in the text, isolation as a requirement has multi-dimension m= eanings, it can mean traffic separation or interference avoidance, etc., an= d each can be realized by some specific technologies, providing dedicated r= esource is just listed as one approach to realize some dimension of the requirement. = The current text may need some improvement to better clarify the requiremen= t and the realization separately, while such confusion just shows the neces= sity of explaining it further in IETF.

 

Best regards,

Jie

 

From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A [mailto:db3546@att.com]
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:51 PM
To: David Sinicrope <david.sinicrope=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct &= lt;jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com= >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Hi,

 

(speaking as an individual)

 

While the document is in itR= 17;s early stages, I think it is important to sort out this use of the term= “isolation”. Already by use of the term “transport”= ;, the scope of this work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15’s transport t= echnologies. Important is to define “transport” carefully for t= he IETF context, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing “= ;isolation” with “dedicated resources” is a step back to the traditional definition.

 

As the authors note, the term &= #8220;isolation” is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is use= d differently. Here’s a recent publicly available white paper from ET= SI NFV which summarizes the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_NF= V-EVE012v030101p.pdf

 

In this ETSI document, when the= y discuss isolation properties, physical resources are not mentioned, they = discuss performance, resiliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP rec= ognizes resources may be logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a “requirement̶= 1;. Physical and virtual resources are used with respect to “realize&= #8221;, not define.

 

I agree with Joel and Dave, I t= hink Appendix A’s example saying a customer will request “dedic= ated resources” and saying the solution of using dedicated resources = (vs. VPN)  guarantees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully = defines resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe = the authors intended it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the co= ntext of this document to mix the definition of “isolation” with “dedicated resources̶= 1;. While an Appendix, it should not clash with the main document. Best is = to remove for now.

 

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)<= /p>

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@= ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.d= ong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; Kiran Makhijani <= kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupav= an@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@iet= f.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Jie,

You note “isolation has been conside= red as one of the characteristics of network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of V= PNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship an= d difference between network slice and VPNs.”

 

I’m not sure where this i= s coming from. Do you have references to support these claims?  I̵= 7;m specifically referring to the claim that “most” related sta= ndards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic.  This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the hi= story of the IETF.

 

If anything the history of work= on VPNs deals with identification of the traffic associated with the VPN n= ot its isolation. Any treatment or characteristic of that traffic has been = a function of QoS.

 

Isolation, in my experience, ha= s not been part of the discussion or texts until the introduction of networ= k slicing and only introduced by a subset of the community.

 

I agree the text on isolation i= s confusing and not needed.  I also ask that it be removed.=

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS = WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussi= on, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cou= rse the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as = one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the rel= ationship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in = the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible r= ealization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.don= g@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@futurewei.com&g= t;; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnupavan@gmail.com= >; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.&nbs= p; In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:t= eas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmai= l.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the sc= ope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >>>> <vishnupa= van@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ie= tf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; TEAS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@iet= f.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once= the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@iet= f.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e47= 2243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.or= g
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e47= 2243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40= f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e47= 2243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%4= 0
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

--_000_df95bfde97614e5b857b4ad4c785c0cehuaweicom_-- From nobody Sat Aug 22 03:09:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14233A0128; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 03:09:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <159809098260.1250.17278911522095857663@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 03:09:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang-06.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:09:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : Applicability of YANG models for Abstraction and Control of Traffic Engineered Networks Authors : Young Lee Haomian Zheng Daniele Ceccarelli Bin Yeong Yoon Oscar Gonzalez de Dios Jong Yoon Shin Sergio Belotti Filename : draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang-06.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2020-08-22 Abstract: Abstraction and Control of TE Networks (ACTN) refers to the set of virtual network operations needed to orchestrate, control and manage large-scale multi-domain TE networks, so as to facilitate network programmability, automation, efficient resource sharing, and end-to- end virtual service aware connectivity and network function virtualization services. This document explains how the different types of YANG models defined in the Operations and Management Area and in the Routing Area are applicable to the ACTN framework. This document also shows how the ACTN architecture can be satisfied using classes of data model that have already been defined, and discusses the applicability of specific data models that are under development. It also highlights where new data models may need to be developed. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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AOAM530ktUkv16ZNs0VinGYyoXRO0xmC5FyYh9HdcsvNmraMNRleQbxt mcTqs1Bp3GWczR18bSMV7j+uJWDY/0Fn7jCpOEw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyY1RY5rwyuZheyK6JWHFtWcc8IigC+qrTOhAqaaLYNMM1vX+C5q2bHdmiX6YvV5Pug3UqbbRF7UuRLpYny9cI= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:c8c:: with SMTP id n12mr7804143qti.226.1598119650953; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:07:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Luis M. Contreras" Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 20:07:19 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG , LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a8cd205ad7b3a73" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:07:36 -0000 --0000000000001a8cd205ad7b3a73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joel, please, see my replies in-line. Best regards Luis El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:42, Joel M. Halpern () escribi=C3=B3: > Luis, I think I disagree with you. > Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about > isolation properties. > But about whether it belongs in this document. > > I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and your > team worry about many forms of isolation. Many of which do not appear > in the eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion). And > many of which do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the > interfaces. > > [Luis>>] At first stage, it can be expected some form of isolation attribute in the slice request at least for 3GPP based services, but this will be extended to other services in the future. Since all those communication services are "client" of the transport network, it is necessary to define isolation in the context of transport slice in order to provide guidance to operators. Not having it, the consequence is that a significant gap is created. > The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation. > They were not able to do so. The text they now have tries to claim > utility, claims relevance to the customer, but is not acutally usable in > designing a service. > > [Luis>>] In my view, expressing isolation intents (whatever the form coul= d be, which is for further work) precisely provides guidance on the design of a transport slice. Different degrees of isolation could impose different constraints on the transport slice. In other words, different customers requiring a transport slice with similar measurable SLOs (in terms of throughput, latency, etc) but different isolation needs will be honored with a distinct transport slice realization, which will take into account the constraints derived from the specific isolation requirements. "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many different > properties. For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do have in > the definitions) is a form of isolation. A delay variation commitment > is a form of isolation. But as a term on its own, separate from these > parameters, "isolation" does not add value to this document. > [Luis>>] I agree on the fact that isolation can be probably realized in different manners. But isolation can be not only related to performance issues, but others such as security, service continuity, service specialization, etc. Whatever reason why the customer could ask for isolation is him / her decision. Leaving the operator to infer the service expectations of the customer in terms of isolation is not the way, I think. Then processing of explicit isolation needs has value for fulfilling customer's expectations. Otherwise, how can be ensure a given transport slice request when the customer has some isolation needs? > > Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete. > We produce useful pieces. You put them together. As an operator you > add your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you > build and deliver service. > > [Luis>>] I agree, but incompleteness can happen because two reasons: (1) we don't anticipate the problem, and because of that, the problem cannot be tackle, producing and incomplete document; and (2) we don't cover a certain issue on purpose, even we recognize it is a key (or at least, controversial) aspect for the problem. We are in the second case now, and I think, again from the perspective of an operator, we need to cover it. The development of isolation implications in transport slices is out of the scope of definitions draft, but isolation, as an important (and specific) topic of transport slices, should be in definitions draft. Yours, > Joel > > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related t= o > > the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be covered i= n > > the definitions draft when referring to transport slices. > > > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could go > > to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for sure > > we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the mappin= g > > of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies through the SB= I > > of the TSC. > > > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport > > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective. > > > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an annex or i= n > > the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport > > slicing in any other document. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Luis > > > > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) ( > >) escribi=C3=B3: > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's > > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on > > this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draf= t > > is that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics > > of network slicing in most of the related standards and > > publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition draft > > does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been > > considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary > > for explaining the relationship and difference between network slic= e > > and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it > > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several > > possible realization mechanism, which makes this description > > reasonably generic. > > > > Best regards, > > Jie > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > > ] > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) > >; Kiran Makhijani > > > >; Vishnu > > Pavan Beeram > > > >; TEAS WG > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > > Appendix > > > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation > > to the > > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should > > agree. In > > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status > > as any > > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the > > appendix > > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retai= n > > the last > > > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It > > does not seem > > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a > > parameter / this is > > > a parameter" > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel > > > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion > > about the > > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The > > current text in > > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although > some > > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to t= he > > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific > opinion > > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kira= n > > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed > > in the NS-DT > > > documents. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jie > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > > ] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > > >> Halpern > > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > >> >; TEAS > > WG > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > >> > > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is > > useful, I > > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You ar= e > > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of > > the WG. > > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > > >> > > > >> Yours, > > > >> Joel > > > >> > > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > >>> Hi Joel, > > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is > > included in > > > >>> the > > > >> framework first. > > > >>> > > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text > > that they > > > >>> are not > > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the > > purpose of > > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the > > scope of > > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g > a > > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks > > > >>> Kiran > > > >>> > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > >>>> >; TEA= S > > WG > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > >>>> > > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last par= t > > of the > > > appendix. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Yours, > > > >>>> Joel > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard > > further > > > >>>>> if they > > > >>>> were convincing. > > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > > >>>>> Thanks > > > >>>>> Kiran > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>>>>> From: Teas > > On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > >; TEAS WG > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email > > list, I > > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG > document. > > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Yours, > > > >>>>>> Joel > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > > >>>>>>> All, > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS > working > > > >>>>>>> group > > > >>>>>> document. > > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" o= r > > "no/do > > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your > > reservations > > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to > provide > > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document i= s > > a WG > > > >> document. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for > > vacation > > > >> season). > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > w. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > ietf.org > > >%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > f > > > >>>>>> utur > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > ewei.com > > >%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > 9 > > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > > 2B > > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > w > > > >>>>>> .i > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > etf.org > > >%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > > u > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > turewei.com > > >%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > > 01 > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > > G > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > > 0 > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > w. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > ietf.org > > >%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > > f > > > >>>> utur > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > ewei.com > > >%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > 9 > > > >>>> c753a1d > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > > > BL > > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > >>>>> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Teas mailing list > > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > > > > > > -- > > ___________________________________________ > > Luis M. Contreras > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > --=20 ___________________________________________ Luis M. Contreras contreras.ietf@gmail.com luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com Global CTIO unit / Telefonica --0000000000001a8cd205ad7b3a73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joel,

please, see my repl= ies in-line.

Best regards

Luis

El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:42, Joel M. Halpern (<jmh@joelhalpern.com>) escribi=C3=B3:
Luis, I think I disagr= ee with you.
Not of course, about the question of whether operators care about
isolation properties.
But about whether it belongs in this document.

I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you and your team worry about many forms of isolation.=C2=A0 Many of which do not appear=
in the eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion).=C2=A0 A= nd
many of which do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces= .

[Luis>>] At first stage, it can be expected som= e form of isolation attribute in the slice request at least for 3GPP based = services, but this will be extended to other services in the future. Since = all those communication services are "client" of the transport ne= twork, it is necessary to define isolation in the context of transport slic= e=C2=A0in=C2=A0order to provide guidance to operators. Not having it, the c= onsequence is that=C2=A0a significant gap is created.
=C2=A0
The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of isolation.
They were not able to do so.=C2=A0 The text they now have tries to claim utility, claims relevance to the customer, but is not acutally usable in designing a service.

[Luis>>] In my view, expressing isolation inten= ts (whatever the form could be, which is for further work) precisely provid= es guidance on the design of a transport slice. Different degrees of isolat= ion could impose different constraints on the transport slice. In other wor= ds, different customers requiring a transport slice with similar measurable= SLOs (in terms of throughput, latency, etc) but different isolation needs = will be honored with a distinct transport slice realization, which will tak= e into account the constraints derived from the specific isolation requirem= ents.

"Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many diffe= rent
properties.=C2=A0 For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do have in =
the definitions) is a form of isolation.=C2=A0 A delay variation commitment=
is a form of isolation.=C2=A0 But as a term on its own, separate from these=
parameters, "isolation" does not add value to this document.
<= /blockquote>
=C2=A0
[Luis>>] I agree on the fact that i= solation can be probably realized in different manners. But isolation can be not only related to=C2= =A0performance issues, but others such as security, service continuity, ser= vice specialization, etc. Whatever reason why the customer could ask for is= olation is him / her decision. Leaving the operator to infer the service expectations of the cus= tomer in terms of isolation is not the way, I think. Then processing of=20 explicit=20 isolation needs has value for fulfilling customer's expectations. Other= wise, how can be ensure a given transport slice request when the customer h= as some isolation needs?

Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee complete.
We produce useful pieces.=C2=A0 You put them together.=C2=A0 As an operator= you
add your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and you build and deliver service.

[Luis>>] I agree, but incompleteness can happen= because two reasons: (1) we don't anticipate the problem, and because = of that, the problem cannot be tackle, producing and incomplete document; a= nd (2) we don't cover a certain issue on purpose, even we recognize it = is a key (or at least, controversial) aspect for the problem. We are in the= second case now, and I think, again from the perspective of an operator, w= e need to cover it. The development of isolation implications in transport = slices is out of the scope of definitions draft, but isolation, as an impor= tant (and specific) topic of transport slices, should be in definitions dra= ft.

Yours,
Joel

On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote:
> Hi Jie, Joel, all,
>
> Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically related = to
> the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should be covered = in
> the definitions draft when referring to transport slices.
>
> The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, could g= o
> to the framework draft or to any other specific document, and for sure=
> we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved in the mappi= ng
> of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologies through the S= BI
> of the TSC.
>
> Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on transport <= br> > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective.
>
> In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation=C2=A0(as an anne= x=C2=A0or in
> the main part of the document). For sure the text can be always
> improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definition to > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to transport
> slicing in any other document.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Luis
>
>
> El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) (<jie.dong@huawei.com
> <mailto:ji= e.dong@huawei.com>>) escribi=C3=B3:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Joel,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.<= br> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What I meant is to provide some background about th= e design team's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion, which may help the WG to review and giv= e comments on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this draft. Of course the decision will be made by = the WG.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discuss= ion in this draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that isolation has been considered as one of the= characteristics
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of network slicing in most of the related standards= and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publications, and it would be incomplete if the def= inition draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation = has been
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussi= on is necessary
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for explaining the relationship and difference betw= een network slice
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of t= he appendix, it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tries to separate the requirements on isolation fro= m several
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible realization mechanism, which makes this de= scription
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonably generic.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jie
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern= .com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>; Kiran Makhijani
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <kiranm@futurewei.com <mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishn= u
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pavan Beeram
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>; T= EAS WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The consensus of the design team is relevant = as a recommendation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether= the WG should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree.=C2=A0 In
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft h= as the same status
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > other individual draft. The WG comes to its c= onclusion.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is no obligation for the WG to retain t= he text from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is unde= r no obligation to retain
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the last
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen any good argument for retaini= ng the text.=C2=A0 It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not seem
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the= definitions draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to s= ay "this is not a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameter / this is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a parameter"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > In the design team there were several ro= unds of discussion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > content in the appendix and where it should b= e placed. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current text in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the appendix reflects the consensus of the de= sign team, although some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > minor edits were not included yet.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As for whether some of the text in appen= dix will be moved to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > framework document, currently the design team= has no specific opinion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreci= ated. While as Kiran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mentioned, description and discussion about i= solation is needed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the NS-DT
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > documents.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jie
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Joel M.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Halpern
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 A= M
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com&g= t;>; TEAS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition - Appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Since I do not think that the materi= al in the appendix is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> for one will not push for adding it = to the Framework.=C2=A0 You are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the f= ramework with the rest of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> But it does not belong in the defini= tions draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijan= i wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am ok to remove some part from= Appendix only if it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0included in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> framework first.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> But for the TSRE, I have propose= d clearer and shorter text
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> are not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> visible to the consumer of a transpo= rt slices. One of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0purpose of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> definitions document is 'define&= #39; common terminology in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slices, and all we are say= ing is that when realizing a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transport slice, things TSEs will ma= p to are called TSREs.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I am not able to see the drawbac= k of saying so.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Thanks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Kiran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> -----Original Message----- >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct &l= t;jmh.direc= t@joelhalpern.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2= 020 1:19 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com<= /a>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.c= om>>; TEAS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adopt= ion -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-sl= ice-definition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> No, your replies did not in = any way address my concerns.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> I would suggest removing the= references to TSRE and more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> importantly removing appendi= x A.1, or at least the last part
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > appendix.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran = Makhijani wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> After having replied to = your comments, we have not heard
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> if they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> were convincing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Please let us know.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Thanks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Kiran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> -----Original Messag= e-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Joel M. H= alpern
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, Aug= ust 19, 2020 9:04 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Bee= ram <vishnupa= van@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>; TEAS WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] = WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-tran= sport-slice-definition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Without repairs to t= he issues I have raised on the email
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0list, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> do not think this do= cument should be adopted as a WG document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> We are close, but no= t quite there.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 A= M, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> All,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> This is start of= a *three* week poll on making
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-= transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> group
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Please send emai= l to the list indicating "yes/support" or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no/do
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> not support"= ;. If indicating no, please state your
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reservations
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> with the documen= t. If yes, please also feel free to provide
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> comments you'= ;d like to see addressed once the document is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> The poll ends Se= ptember 9th (extra week to account for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vacation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> season).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> ________________= _______________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas mailing lis= t
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > = https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&a= mp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > f
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> utur
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ewei.com>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a35= 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> c753a1d
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp= ;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 2B
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IU= IgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> ____________________= ___________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas mailing list >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > = https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>> .i
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > etf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://etf.org>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp= ;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > u
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > turewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://turewei.com>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84= 459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 01
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63733449909461204= 8&amp;sdata=3D%2F
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > G
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk= %3D&amp;reserved=3D
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> ________________________= _______________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > = https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > w.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ietf.org>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&a= mp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > f
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> utur
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > ewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://ewei.com>%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659a= c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 9
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> c753a1d
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp= ;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BL
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>> sLRq9T9a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%= 3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> ____________________________________= ___________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/teas
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/teas
>
>
>
> --
> ___________________________________________
> Luis M. Contreras
> contrera= s.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>
> luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com
> <mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>
> Global CTIO unit / Telefonica


--
__________________________= _________________
Luis M. Contreras
<= div>Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
--0000000000001a8cd205ad7b3a73-- From nobody Sat Aug 22 11:13:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8807A3A0A1D for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1oF1_08ycB5 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A99C3A0A1C for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id v1so2067873qvn.3 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:13:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K5fnSeE3r08xImYO9XqUN9W6YKtvgxgNUPstvQlHd/8=; b=kaEK6Vg+ZD1H+Z2y6o905ojY3kfTf5W4zLJxDuWGUA8tFfMmzK49/rCSEPskiDlv7O wumYehpWJd7V+K+VWgHJt+ndshiiOmGto1GDoczNgnJrz9xcUWC6krjfNFWxYRmVPjvy TjrSxyqie6Lj696D3QskcArhupI1aZq/OCSvxBtudZ78yv8BqJQv7nm7ZWr3zew966Az AKAAxfdFe9hcpTYg1WdY6/RRFAufHr6TtpjDJ49KDmNe9R2PlYWpNdpONOawVNOS3YL7 A+ccurhnASQ0Vk0Xw0UL6ctlPPNQScZTStlOqS+NxHEkLk8zLLSlYNuOFKe+ifmds1RB GfxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K5fnSeE3r08xImYO9XqUN9W6YKtvgxgNUPstvQlHd/8=; b=TCg0+WUFNEGKoTkBog7ZNYcvddxiM4UU1wp5EFkCrO3TqZZQlEFB5JqQ0nS9nOBhMV 0mj9LDH35nPpDHTvStaWxol/ujkwbO64xaugaPbVjy0fi/aP8Kd9/4hCoW24iJw80aCt kLTeegr0WzSRdTNswYRUue15DUD354uxvdAHmaLKFpSd1tfJ6FIZgRTN5cC5sSjMNS+G pSgcUa1HX6tpt6VmEklZ5xPSn8e9QciBYh7IcWHd4ty9UAFPohd4GasPcsHv+5w9o4Sc 5Ur8UIbgNG8xmuL/IejQbNOSLM7BuJoZuVM3LvWPrZDuV48DwoZoblfyvA7dPa6fF9UE HnjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532cHFrBcqDgUECVIWxQEsHYEvFOizv5hvQRs7aN9uTUtCw6W868 rgaovg0KSRNTtYh/1GKmBw6KIx81wvz4vBKUtnM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy35dqCCbmsaDOYdTQRJzv99Z8R3MTyaicHdV2jhoKyLCaT8IrZTUgks/odUnk0HBP4bLe7G50Gw7gPtwxzS2g= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:dd05:: with SMTP id u5mr7385361qvk.143.1598120002646; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:13:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> In-Reply-To: <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> From: "Luis M. Contreras" Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 20:13:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" Cc: David Sinicrope , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011fe9805ad7b4fd5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:13:28 -0000 --00000000000011fe9805ad7b4fd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Deborah, as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isolation. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we should include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that could be further elaborated in the framework document or in any other. For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching certain consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and discussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requires more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the importance of keeping it in the definition draft. Best regards Luis El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A () escribi=C3=B3: > Hi, > > > > (speaking as an individual) > > > > While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I think it is importa= nt to > sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D. Already by use= of the term > =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of this work may be confused with = the traditional > definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80= =99s > transport technologies. Important is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80= =9D carefully for > the IETF context, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing > =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is= a step back to the traditional > definition. > > > > As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is used in othe= r SDOs, including > 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2=80=99s a recent publicly availa= ble white > paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requirements from 3GPP for netwo= rk > slicing: > > > https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_N= FV-EVE012v030101p.pdf > > > > In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical > resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, > security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logica= l > or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequiremen= t=E2=80=9D. > Physical and virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize= =E2=80=9D, not > define. > > > > I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99s example saying a= customer > will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D and saying the solutio= n of using > dedicated resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requirements are met, clash= es > with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully > defines resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Mayb= e > the authors intended it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the > context of this document to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2= =80=9D with > =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it should not c= lash with the main > document. Best is to remove for now. > > > > Thanks, > > Deborah > > (individual) > > > > *From:* Teas *On Behalf Of * David Sinicrope > *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM > *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct < > jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; Kiran Makhijani ; > Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > Jie, > > You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteris= tics of > network slicing in *most of the related standards and publications,* and > it would be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And *= in > IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs,* > the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and differenc= e > between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D > > > > I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references to= support > these claims? I=E2=80=99m specifically referring to the claim that =E2= =80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related > standards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic. This > has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the > history of the IETF. > > > > If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the > traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or > characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. > > > > Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or texts > until the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset > of the community. > > > > I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask > that it be removed. > > > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Teas on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) < > jie.dong@huawei.com> > *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM > *To:* Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > Hi Joel, > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this > draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is > that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of netwo= rk > slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would b= e > incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF histo= ry > isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion = is > necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network > slice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible > realization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. > > Best regards, > Jie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com > ] > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani > > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > ; TEAS WG > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > Appendix > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the > last > > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not > seem > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a paramete= r > / this is > > a parameter" > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text > in > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the > NS-DT > > documents. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org ] On > Behalf Of Joel M. > > >> Halpern > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >> ; TEAS WG > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > >> > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the WG= . > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > >> > > >> Yours, > > >> Joel > > >> > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>> Hi Joel, > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included in > > >>> the > > >> framework first. > > >>> > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that the= y > > >>> are not > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose of > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > >>> > > >>> Thanks > > >>> Kiran > > >>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > >>>> ; TEAS WG > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>> > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of th= e > > appendix. > > >>>> > > >>>> Yours, > > >>>> Joel > > >>>> > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further > > >>>>> if they > > >>>> were convincing. > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > >>>>> Thanks > > >>>>> Kiran > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Yours, > > >>>>>> Joel > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > >>>>>>> All, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working > > >>>>>>> group > > >>>>>> document. > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/d= o > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG > > >> document. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation > > >> season). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e= 472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > > > w. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>>>> utur > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > 2B > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e= 472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > > > w > > >>>>>> .i > > >>>> > > >> > > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > u > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > 01 > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > G > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > 0 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e= 472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%= 252F%252Fww > > > w. > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 > > f > > >>>> utur > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > 9 > > >>>> c753a1d > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 > > BL > > >>>> sLRq9T9a > > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > >>>>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Teas mailing list > > >> Teas@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --=20 ___________________________________________ Luis M. Contreras contreras.ietf@gmail.com luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com Global CTIO unit / Telefonica --00000000000011fe9805ad7b4fd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Deborah,

as you comment, = there are different views from different SDOs on isolation. But we lack our= own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we should include a pre= liminary definition on the definitions draft that could be further elaborat= ed=C2=A0in the framework document or in any other.

For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching certain= consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended=C2=A0and d= iscussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requi= res more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, = the importance=C2=A0of keeping it in the definition draft.=C2=A0
=
Best regards

Luis

El vie., 21 ago. 2= 020 a las 17:52, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (<db3546@att.com>) escribi=C3=B3:

Hi,

=C2=A0

(speaking as an individual)

=C2=A0

While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, = I think it is important to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation= =E2=80=9D. Already by use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scop= e of this work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transpo= rt network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. = Important is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF c= ontext, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolat= ion=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to t= he traditional definition.

=C2=A0

As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2= =80=9D is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. H= ere=E2=80=99s a recent publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which s= ummarizes the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

ht= tps://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_NFV-E= VE012v030101p.pdf

=C2=A0

In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation p= roperties, physical resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, = resiliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may= be logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. Physical and = virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80=9D, not d= efine.

=C2=A0

I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80= =99s example saying a customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2= =80=9D and saying the solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN) =C2= =A0guarantees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines resources= not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the authors inten= ded it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context of this doc= ument to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it should n= ot clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)

=C2=A0

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhal= pern.com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <= vishnupavan@gmai= l.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

Jie,

You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteristics o= f network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of V= PNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship an= d difference between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D<= /p>

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do y= ou have references to support these claims?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m specifically = referring to the claim that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and pu= blications consider isolation as a characteristic.=C2=A0 This has not been = my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IET= F.

=C2=A0

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with i= dentification of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any= treatment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.=

=C2=A0

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of th= e discussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only in= troduced by a subset of the community.

=C2=A0

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not n= eeded.=C2=A0 I also ask that it be removed.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Dave

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Don= gjie (Jimmy) <j= ie.dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS = WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's disc= ussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of= course the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as = one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the rel= ationship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in = the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible r= ealization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@f= uturewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.=C2= =A0 In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.=C2=A0 It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.=C2=A0 Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology i= n the scope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>=
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Bee= ram
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joe= l M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; = TEAS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed = once the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e47= 2243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2= Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab9594= 70747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e47= 2243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Fl= istinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26= ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e47= 2243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2= Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35= ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.= org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


--
__________________________= _________________
Luis M. Contreras
<= div>Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
--00000000000011fe9805ad7b4fd5-- From nobody Sat Aug 22 11:28:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3356B3A0A4F for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GrEq_QlWoDZ for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D1C43A0A52 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id u3so4161120qkd.9 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3tcD/CTDi94xOardcpOzDRJGEI46WMdezozUrciwdhc=; b=PqyPbue2qkhMpZoaBUiBNGvS3oYBA/SDgfC2sB3I9GYjwBAI2chYhdQN/6mOWrjWQc 3hB/wIS6gxt/Qr5p6I6oYXYObmRh1eWhIj2JrfuA4AcojyckduV5H+TLt4NMmkKPorfu OyFg4KWrIbkgBxBqUQ+53qX3m792owLv7UWOMoXutnlhDwlHYSKYGgoVP03LChz1wZFs lpWfbePl0thk/RXBy2aLIWhgtwRjs4lLpEzsrUWh8pP58B5bEGMe58Slt0BBSD/dwYzw gVkt1a9v6ZEjnUJQqpFaPhUGcJAdE5FM61kqqva2j1D/wL1i9vCk+5Jarp7VGGzlYotL D7wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3tcD/CTDi94xOardcpOzDRJGEI46WMdezozUrciwdhc=; b=HHQOVuIWKf6uMx4YTrSTIwtVZ25nC40Soc9uFLBwWYIuvMXQqHqD0l8YOjWvfQIVNc 4m/rXgIFdRsB3K7n/7S3L0H0FxtZydLIQbplI2EGV030f2jGD8n7aNdmBIyGJxWaqSqw yb7BXgxTVvRFv/bzVFfic91pQVQKH5t6Y0HyDHlkBXajtTYMH1Arjo0PsdWFydPCpqSC ybX1I1vncqHQS+3zW/noM+so7MVRY8/gppw+i5GQFVBTMlevmYgFJGGIM7YzNRPD8qnA nMXf4vEzxIJHbKvX3yqFzS7ykkpKR5HV9+ts2oyTGFQjctKQVTkb2/NBIOa8v3RM8bsP +OYw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530t4qxDYsVkaDxPopcZQdWdRmKbtmW86HxtZ9MeE49omhPbBLgR 4FSufIAyx0Wa9c50SqvpkdRakSqzmrPNf25qrX8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwsB//zzGQ7tRfisrJWfM6u5cp71LsaYLzXGZnAanVkBm+a9ZY4zaPzDdVoyk50D0+mD4Tsd2dj0WjUVNGnqGY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a28d:: with SMTP id l135mr7787256qke.247.1598120876745; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:27:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <6d3648ba-525c-21c8-b88a-695170da0dc2@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <6d3648ba-525c-21c8-b88a-695170da0dc2@joelhalpern.com> From: "Luis M. Contreras" Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 20:27:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: Joel Halpern Direct Cc: Kiran Makhijani , Greg Mirsky , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002aa9f105ad7b83fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:28:05 -0000 --0000000000002aa9f105ad7b83fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joel, the NBI, apart from considering measurable parameters, could need to consider characteristics of the service. For instance, servicing a given geographical area but avoiding any other for whatever reason (e.g., security, content rights, etc). Isolation is not a directly measurable characteristic (maybe could be using intrusive mechanisms similar to service activation tests such in ITU-T Y.1564, thinking loud) but can be observable in case of eventual situations in the network, I think. Best regards Luis El s=C3=A1b., 22 ago. 2020 a las 3:38, Joel Halpern Direct (< jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>) escribi=C3=B3: > I think Kiran that you are missing the point. > What actually matters are the measurables, not the inferences. > > Sure, in the sales discussions if a customer asks "will my traffic be > protected from competing traffic?" the answer will be "Yes, of course." > When it comes time to write the contract and the SLA, which uses the > SLOs, the contract terms will say things like > Traffic X will always have avaiable bandwidth Y. > [unstated, but assumed is "regardless of competing traffic"] > or > Traffic Z will be delivered with delay variation less than A. > [unstated, but assumed is "regardless of competing traffic"] > > Isolation is not something special. And it is not something that can be > written into a customer agreement as a freestanding term. Unless it is > related to a measurable, none of the customer, the operator, or a judge > trying to enforce the contract will know whether it has been met. > > Similarly, what goes over the (northbound) interface this document is > concerned with has to be measurables. Otherwise they are not > deliverable. (And this applies to any derived southbound as well.) > > The text in Appendix A simply sserves to confuse readers as to what we > are doing. Please, remove it. > > Yours, > Joel > > > On 8/21/2020 9:28 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > Please see inline > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > > *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:21 PM > > *To:* Kiran Makhijani > > *Cc:* Joel M. Halpern ; Luis M. Contreras > > ; Dongjie (Jimmy) ; LUIS > > MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO ; > > Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > Hi Kiran, > > > > I have to admit that I'm confused by the last paragraph in your note. > > > > First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not observable (though I > > am not sure what quote marks around directly signify). But then you add > > "will rely on other means of monitoring". Isn't any type of monitoring, > > in fact, a method of a direct observation? > > > > */[KM] It is not direct monitoring, it is an inference from some other > > piece of information. (I was just thinking out loud, how could you prov= e > > it)/* > > > > Also, I sense that one of the motivations behind using the term > > isolation is to differentiate between physical and virtual instances > > that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in the overlay > > network. If that is the case, perhaps we can avoid the contention aroun= d > > the use of the term isolation as SLO > > > > */[KM] it is not an SLO, it is an additional ask or specification./* > > > > and instead add a parameter that can have two values, physical and > virtual? > > > > */[KM] Yes, it could work but it is too specific to the example, what i= f > > there were others. I prefer something along the lines of > > traffic-separation./* > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran Makhijani > > wrote: > > > > Hi Joel, > > Looks like your main concern is that text seem to say that isolatio= n > > is observable. > > > > That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope 'isolation' with in > > the context of transport slices not define it. During IETF 107 you > > gave a feedback that isolation is not directly observable, and we > > all completely agreed, dropped a lot of text accordingly. > > > > In this text, the important piece is to capture that customer could > > also be very specific about asking "my traffic should be separated > > from (or should have no interference with) other traffic". > > This is not covered in the document and without such clarification, > > we cannot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we define > > 'isolation' then that can be a container in NBI. One common use cas= e > > where customer could ask this is financial institutions or critical > > infrastructure explicitly asking for a (or a set of) physical ports > > or links. > > > > The last para simply says there are 3 related things that customer > > could explicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation') and when realizing > > transport slices operators could possibly do so & so to meet those > asks. > > > > An alternative to deleting the text maybe - don=E2=80=99t use term > > isolation but describe explicit requirement of traffic separation. > > And maybe clearly say this is not 'directly' observable and will > > rely on other means of monitoring that are case specific such as > > mapping physical port counters to service counters etc. > > > > -Kiran > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Joel M. Halpern > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM > > > To: Luis M. Contreras > >; Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > > > > Cc: Kiran Makhijani > >; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > >; TEAS WG > > >; LUIS MIGUEL > > > CONTRERAS MURILLO > > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > > Appendix > > > > > > Luis, I think I disagree with you. > > > Not of course, about the question of whether operators care abou= t > > isolation > > > properties. > > > But about whether it belongs in this document. > > > > > > I am quite sure that when designing services for customers, you > > and your team > > > worry about many forms of isolation. Many of which do not appea= r > > in the > > > eventual SLA (even if they do occur in informal discussion). An= d > > many of which > > > do not appear as explicit parameters on any of the interfaces. > > > > > > The authors attempted t provide an observable definition of > > isolation. > > > They were not able to do so. The text they now have tries to > > claim utility, > > > claims relevance to the customer, but is not actually usable in > > designing a > > > service. > > > > > > "Isolation" as a network property probably is actually many > different > > > properties. For example, a bandwidth commitment (which we do > > have in the > > > definitions) is a form of isolation. A delay variation > > commitment is a form of > > > isolation. But as a term on its own, separate from these > > parameters, "isolation" > > > does not add value to this document. > > > > > > Also remember that no document we produce will be or can bee > > complete. > > > We produce useful pieces. You put them together. As an operato= r > > you add > > > your many constraints, your customers goals and constraints, and > > you build and > > > deliver service. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel > > > > > > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: > > > > Hi Jie, Joel, all, > > > > > > > > Just to share my view. The idea of isolation is intrinsically > > related > > > > to the notion of slice in the industry, and as such it should = be > > > > covered in the definitions draft when referring to transport > > slices. > > > > > > > > The development of what isolation implies, in practical terms, > > could > > > > go to the framework draft or to any other specific document, > > and for > > > > sure we can expect references to degrees of isolation achieved > > in the > > > > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinct transport technologi= es > > > > through the SBI of the TSC. > > > > > > > > Not covering isolation at all, basically makes the work on > > transport > > > > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2=80=99s perspective. > > > > > > > > In that sense I support keeping the text on isolation (as an > > annex or > > > > in the main part of the document). For sure the text can be > always > > > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficiently generic definitio= n > to > > > > facilitate the development of its scope when applied to > transport > > > > slicing in any other document. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > > > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > ( > > > > >>) > > escribi=C3=B3: > > > > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. > > > > > > > > What I meant is to provide some background about the desig= n > > team's > > > > discussion, which may help the WG to review and give > > comments on > > > > this draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. > > > > > > > > One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in > > this draft > > > > is that isolation has been considered as one of the > > characteristics > > > > of network slicing in most of the related standards and > > > > publications, and it would be incomplete if the definition > > draft > > > > does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has bee= n > > > > considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is > > necessary > > > > for explaining the relationship and difference between > > network slice > > > > and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the > > appendix, it > > > > tries to separate the requirements on isolation from sever= al > > > > possible realization mechanism, which makes this descripti= on > > > > reasonably generic. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Joel Halpern Direct > > [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> > > > > > >] > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM > > > > > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > > > >>= ; > > Kiran Makhijani > > > > > > > >>; Vishn= u > > > > Pavan Beeram > > > > > > > >>; > TEAS WG > > > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - > > > > > Appendix > > > > > > > > > > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a > > recommendation > > > > to the > > > > > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG > should > > > > agree. In > > > > > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the sam= e > > status > > > > as any > > > > > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. > > > > > > > > > > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text > > from the > > > > appendix > > > > > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation > > to retain > > > > the last > > > > > paragraph of the appendix anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the > > text. It > > > > does not seem > > > > > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the > > definitions draft. > > > > > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this i= s > > not a > > > > parameter / this is > > > > > a parameter" > > > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > Joel > > > > > > > > > > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: > > > > > > Hi Joel, > > > > > > > > > > > > In the design team there were several rounds of > discussion > > > > about the > > > > > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. > The > > > > current text in > > > > > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, > > although some > > > > > minor edits were not included yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be > > moved to the > > > > > framework document, currently the design team has no > > specific opinion > > > > > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. Whil= e > > as Kiran > > > > > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation i= s > > needed > > > > in the NS-DT > > > > > documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > > > > > > > >] On Behalf Of Joel M. > > > > > >> Halpern > > > > > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM > > > > > >> To: Kiran Makhijani > > > > > > >>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > > >> > > >>; TEA= S > > > > WG > > >> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendi= x > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Since I do not think that the material in the > appendix is > > > > useful, I > > > > > >> for one will not push for adding it to the > > Framework. You are > > > > > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with th= e > > rest of > > > > the WG. > > > > > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Yours, > > > > > >> Joel > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > > >>> Hi Joel, > > > > > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if i= t > is > > > > included in > > > > > >>> the > > > > > >> framework first. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and > > shorter text > > > > that they > > > > > >>> are not > > > > > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One o= f > the > > > > purpose of > > > > > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology > > in the > > > > scope of > > > > > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when > > realizing a > > > > > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called > > TSREs. > > > > > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> Thanks > > > > > >>> Kiran > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM > > > > > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani > > > > > > >>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > > >>>> > > >>; > > > TEAS > > > > WG > > >> > > > > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my > > concerns. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE an= d > > more > > > > > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the > > last part > > > > of the > > > > > appendix. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> Yours, > > > > > >>>> Joel > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: > > > > > >>>>> Hi Joel, > > > > > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t > > heard > > > > further > > > > > >>>>> if they > > > > > >>>> were convincing. > > > > > >>>>> Please let us know. > > > > > >>>>> Thanks > > > > > >>>>> Kiran > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > > > > >>>>>> From: Teas > > > > > > >> On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > > > > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM > > > > > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > > > > >>; TEAS WG > > > > > >>>>>> > > >> > > > > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > > > > > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on > > the email > > > > list, I > > > > > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as = a > WG > > > document. > > > > > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> Yours, > > > > > >>>>>> Joel > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote= : > > > > > >>>>>>> All, > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making > > > > > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a > > TEAS working > > > > > >>>>>>> group > > > > > >>>>>> document. > > > > > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating > > "yes/support" or > > > > "no/do > > > > > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state yo= ur > > > > reservations > > > > > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel fre= e > > to provide > > > > > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the > > document is > > > > a WG > > > > > >> document. > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to > > account for > > > > vacation > > > > > >> season). > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > > > > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > > w. > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > ietf.org > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= rg%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e08d8462= 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https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c= om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e08d8462= 8ee14%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336488898969798&sdata= =3Dk49Ao2avtmNlZZSLxFrtYPkzSSJ12W6dcAnSZfR6IGA%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fewei.c > > > om%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F40futu= rewei.com%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e= 08d84628ee14%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63733648889897978= 7&sdata=3DOPhISgDytgKqV7i9r2sIcriQd6XIt0eBZYZi7B0HYt4%3D&reserved=3D0 > >%7C6e84819cea174 > > > 8c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7= C > > > 637336213276038270&sdata=3DPDkVSDt7Cr1L01rmtnysaKRRafqOmKfrr= 9sN > > > G%2BmbpcA%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a35 > > > 1%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > > > > > 9 > > > > > >>>>>> c753a1d > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% > > > > > 2B > > > > > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 > > > > > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > > w > > > > > >>>>>> .i > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > etf.org > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.or= g%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e08d84628= ee14%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637336488898989785&sdata= =3Dqk3DEhb0CDuMWuv5Bvby5v8hASoBaedDVA5KWyaVvUU%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > > > > > > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fetf.or= g > > > %2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2F40futu= rewei.com%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e= 08d84628ee14%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63733648889898978= 5&sdata=3DnwlLNsIR4YHNSqH6FkKSmiY9RQr3v4AqNc8oJm2JpaI%3D&reserved=3D0 > >%7C6e84819cea1748c > > > 9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C6= 3 > > > 7336213276038270&sdata=3DHe3XPdNABefXKOz92Z0QYR2Va2KIe43lclC= TD7 > > > 12p5M%3D&reserved=3D0>%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data= =3D02 > > > %7C01%7Ckiranm%40f > > > > > u > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > turewei.com > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fturewe= i.com%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com%7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e08d8= 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1748c9f64308d845e8c14b%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C= 0 > > > %7C637336213276038270&sdata=3D7PuKdwn1Yyw9PIxiIfj62%2Bya%2FB= PG > > > fkCKgMnpTNbtAPs%3D&reserved=3D0>%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84= 4 > > > 59a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 > > > > > 01 > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F > > > > > G > > > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D > > > > > 0 > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >>>>> Teas mailing list > > > > > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org > > > > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww > > > > > w. > > > > > >>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >> > > > > > ietf.org > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fietf.o= 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Contreras > > > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > > > > > > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > < > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40futurewei.com= %7C9f6c466f17774a9ae70e08d84628ee14%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%= 7C0%7C637336488899059751&sdata=3DKzFInnEA4Q3bmCD1NXkAX6dCxrzJwT%2BKv1NbOAcY= X1o%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --=20 ___________________________________________ Luis M. Contreras contreras.ietf@gmail.com luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com Global CTIO unit / Telefonica --0000000000002aa9f105ad7b83fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joel,

the NBI, apart from= considering measurable parameters, could need to consider characteristics = of the service. For instance, servicing a given geographical area but avoid= ing any other for whatever reason (e.g., security, content rights, etc).=C2= =A0

Isolation is not a directly measurable charact= eristic (maybe could be using intrusive=C2=A0mechanisms similar to service = activation tests such in ITU-T Y.1564, thinking loud) but can be observable= in case of eventual situations in the network,=C2=A0I think.
Best regards

Luis

El s=C3=A1b., 22 ago= . 2020 a las 3:38, Joel Halpern Direct (<jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>) escribi=C3=B3:
=
I think Kiran that you ar= e missing the point.
What actually matters are the measurables, not the inferences.

Sure, in the sales discussions if a customer asks "will my traffic be =
protected from competing traffic?" the answer will be "Yes, of co= urse."
When it comes time to write the contract and the SLA, which uses the
SLOs, the contract terms will say things like
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic X will always have avaiable bandwidth Y.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [unstated, but assumed is "regardless of c= ompeting traffic"]
or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic Z will be delivered with delay variation less t= han A.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[unstated, but assumed is "regardles= s of competing traffic"]

Isolation is not something special.=C2=A0 And it is not something that can = be
written into a customer agreement as a freestanding term.=C2=A0 Unless it i= s
related to a measurable, none of the customer, the operator, or a judge trying to enforce the contract will know whether it has been met.

Similarly, what goes over the (northbound) interface this document is
concerned with has to be measurables.=C2=A0 Otherwise they are not
deliverable.=C2=A0 (And this applies to any derived southbound as well.)
The text in Appendix A simply sserves to confuse readers as to what we
are doing.=C2=A0 Please, remove it.

Yours,
Joel


On 8/21/2020 9:28 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> Please see inline
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:21 PM
> *To:* Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>
> *Cc:* Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Luis M. Contreras
> <cont= reras.ietf@gmail.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; LUIS
> MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefoni= ca.com>;
> Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
>
> Hi Kiran,
>
> I have to admit that I'm confused by the=C2=A0last paragraph in yo= ur note.
>
> First, you agree that isolation interpreted is not observable (though = I
> am not sure what quote marks around directly signify). But then you ad= d
> "will rely on other means of monitoring". Isn't any type= of monitoring,
> in fact, a method of a direct observation?
>
> */[KM] It is not direct monitoring, it is an inference from some other=
> piece of information. (I was just thinking out loud, how could you pro= ve
> it)/*
>
> Also, I sense that one of the=C2=A0motivations=C2=A0behind using the t= erm
> isolation is to differentiate between physical and virtual instances <= br> > that provide a service, e.g., physical link vs. a link in the overlay =
> network. If that is the case, perhaps=C2=A0we can avoid the contention= around
> the use of the term isolation as SLO
>
> */[KM] it is not an SLO, it is an additional ask or specification./* >
> and instead add a parameter that can have two values, physical and vir= tual?
>
> */[KM] Yes, it could work but it is too specific to the example, what = if
> there were others. I prefer something along the lines of
> traffic-separation./*
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 3:53 PM Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com
> <mailto:k= iranm@futurewei.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Looks like your main concern is that text seem to s= ay that isolation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is observable.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That's not the intent. We just wanted to scope = 'isolation' with in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the context of transport slices not define it. Duri= ng IETF 107 you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gave a feedback that isolation is not directly obse= rvable, and we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all completely agreed, dropped a lot of text accord= ingly.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In this text, the important piece is to capture tha= t customer could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also be very specific about asking "my traffic= should be separated
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from (or should have no interference with) other tr= affic".
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is not covered in the document and without suc= h clarification,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we cannot scope NBI properly. I was thinking if we = define
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'isolation' then that can be a container in= NBI. One common use case
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0where customer could ask this is financial institut= ions or critical
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0infrastructure explicitly asking for a (or a set of= ) physical ports
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or links.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The last para simply says there are 3 related thing= s that customer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could explicitly ask for (termed as 'isolation&= #39;) and when realizing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport slices operators could possibly do so &am= p; so to meet those asks.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An alternative to deleting the text maybe=C2=A0 - d= on=E2=80=99t use term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolation but describe explicit requirement of traf= fic separation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And maybe clearly say this is not 'directly'= ; observable and will
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rely on other means of monitoring that are case spe= cific such as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mapping physical port counters to service counters = etc.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Kiran
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 8:42 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>>; Dongjie (Jimmy)=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <jie.dong@huawei.com <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cc: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>; T= EAS WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>; LUIS MIGUEL
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrer= asmurillo@telefonica.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefon= ica.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Luis, I think I disagree with you.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Not of course, about the question of whether = operators care about
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > properties.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > But about whether it belongs in this document= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I am quite sure that when designing services = for customers, you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and your team
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > worry about many forms of isolation.=C2=A0 Ma= ny of which do not appear
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > eventual SLA (even if they do occur in inform= al discussion).=C2=A0 And
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0many of which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > do not appear as explicit parameters on any o= f the interfaces.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The authors attempted t provide an observable= definition of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0isolation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > They were not able to do so.=C2=A0 The text t= hey now have tries to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0claim utility,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > claims relevance to the customer, but is not = actually usable in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0designing a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > service.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > "Isolation" as a network property p= robably is actually many different
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > properties.=C2=A0 For example, a bandwidth co= mmitment (which we do
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > definitions) is a form of isolation.=C2=A0 A = delay variation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0commitment is a form of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > isolation.=C2=A0 But as a term on its own, se= parate from these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameters, "isolation"
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > does not add value to this document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Also remember that no document we produce wil= l be or can bee
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0complete.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We produce useful pieces.=C2=A0 You put them = together.=C2=A0 As an operator
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you add
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > your many constraints, your customers goals a= nd constraints, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you build and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > deliver service.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 8/21/2020 4:49 AM, Luis M. Contreras wrote= :
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Jie, Joel, all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Just to share my view. The idea of isola= tion is intrinsically
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0related
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > to the notion of slice in the industry, = and as such it should be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > covered in the definitions draft when re= ferring to transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0slices.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > The development of what isolation implie= s, in practical terms,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > go to the framework draft or to any othe= r specific document,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > sure we can expect references to degrees= of isolation achieved
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > mapping of slicing mechanisms to distinc= t transport technologies
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > through the SBI of the TSC.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Not covering isolation at all, basically= makes the work on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > slicing incomplete from an operator=E2= =80=99s perspective.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > In that sense I support keeping the text= on isolation=C2=A0(as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0annex=C2=A0or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > in the main part of the document). For s= ure the text can be always
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > improved, but as it is now is a sufficie= ntly generic definition to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > facilitate the development of its scope = when applied to transport
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > slicing in any other document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Luis
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 10:26, Dongj= ie (Jimmy)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > (<jie.dong@huawei.com <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com <mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>>= ;>)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0escribi=C3=B3:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your clari= fication about the procedure.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What I meant is to pr= ovide some background about the design
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0team's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion, which may= help the WG to review and give
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comments on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this draft. Of course= the decision will be made by the WG.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the reasons of= keeping the isolation discussion in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is that isolation has= been considered as one of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0characteristics
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of network slicing in= most of the related standards and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publications, and it = would be incomplete if the definition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not touch this. = And in IETF history isolation has been
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered as one req= uirement of VPNs, the discussion is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0necessary
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for explaining the re= lationship and difference between
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network slice
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and VPNs. Also note t= hat in the last paragraph of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appendix, it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tries to separate the= requirements on isolation from several
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible realization = mechanism, which makes this description
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonably generic. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jie
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -----Original M= essage-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: Joel Halp= ern Direct
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.= com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalper= n.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Friday, A= ugust 21, 2020 11:28 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Dongjie (Ji= mmy) <jie.dong@= huawei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jie.dong@huawei.com <= mailto:jie.dong@hu= awei.com>>>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kiran Makhijani
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <kiranm@futurewei.com <= ;mailto:kiranm@fu= turewei.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com <mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>>; = Vishnu
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pavan Beeram
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <vishnupavan@gmail.com &= lt;mailto:vishnu= pavan@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>&g= t;; TEAS WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org> <mailto:teas@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas@ietf.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: [T= eas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-nsdt-teas-trans= port-slice-definition -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The consensus o= f the design team is relevant as a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0recommendation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > WG, but otherwi= se is not relevant for whether the WG should
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree.=C2=A0 In
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > terms of WG ado= ption, the design team draft has the same
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0status
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > other individua= l draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > There is no obl= igation for the WG to retain the text
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > anywhere.=C2=A0= In particular, the WG is under no obligation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to retain
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the last
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > paragraph of th= e appendix anywhere.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I have not seen= any good argument for retaining the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text.=C2=A0 It
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does not seem
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to add to or ev= en fit with the purpose of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0definitions draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > If anything, it= is confusing at it seems to say "this is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameter / this is >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a parameter&quo= t;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 8/20/2020 11= :17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Joel, >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > In the des= ign team there were several rounds of discussion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > content in the = appendix and where it should be placed. The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current text in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the appendix re= flects the consensus of the design team,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0although some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > minor edits wer= e not included yet.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As for whe= ther some of the text in appendix will be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0moved to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > framework docum= ent, currently the design team has no
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific opinion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > about this, and= feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as Kiran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mentioned, desc= ription and discussion about isolation is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the NS-DT
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > documents.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regar= ds,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Jie
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> -----O= riginal Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> From: = Teas [mailto:tea= s-bounces@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>>] On Behalf Of Joel M.<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Halper= n
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Sent: = Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> To: Ki= ran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> <vishnupavan@gmail.= com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>&g= t;; TEAS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Subjec= t: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> draft-= nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Since = I do not think that the material in the appendix is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> for on= e will not push for adding it to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Framework.=C2=A0 You are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> welcom= e to dabate adding it to the framework with the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rest of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> But it= does not belong in the definitions draft.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Yours,=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> Joel >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> On 8/2= 0/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Hi= Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I = am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0included in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> th= e
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> framew= ork first.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Bu= t for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0shorter text
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> ar= e not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> visibl= e to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0purpose of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> defini= tions document is 'define' common terminology
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scope of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transp= ort slices, and all we are saying is that when
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0realizing a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> transp= ort slice, things TSEs will map to are called
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TSREs.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> I = am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Th= anks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> Ki= ran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; From: Joel Halpern Direct
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com<= /a>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalper= n.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:kiranm@futurewei.com>>>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; <vishnupava= n@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com> <mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>>;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > TEAS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG <teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; No, your replies did not in any way address my
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0concerns.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0last part
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > appendix.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> Hi Joel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> After having replied to your comments, we have not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0heard
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0further
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> if they
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ; were convincing.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> Please let us know.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> Thanks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;> Kiran
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> -----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org>>> On Behalf Of Joel = M. Halpern
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com>>>; TEAS WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> <teas@ietf.= org <mailto:teas@= ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:teas@ietf.org <mailto:teas@ietf.org>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the email
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0list, I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> We are close, but not quite there.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> All,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TEAS working
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> group
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> document.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> Please send email to the list indicating
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"yes/support" or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"no/do
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reservations
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to provide
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a WG
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> docume= nt.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0account for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vacation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >> season= ).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> Pavan and Lou
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> Teas@ietf.= org <mailto:Teas@= ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Teas@ietf.org <mailto:Teas@ietf.org>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> RAlZTXBv5
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Teas mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >>>>= ;>> Teas@ietf.org<= /a> <mailto:Teas@ietf= .org>
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>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > ________________________________________= ___
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Luis M. Contreras
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefon= ica.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefon= ica.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > <mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmuri= llo@telefonica.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefon= ica.com>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________
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--
__________________________= _________________
Luis M. Contreras
<= div>Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
--0000000000002aa9f105ad7b83fe-- From nobody Sat Aug 22 12:24:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD4A3A0E3C for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p_azPXi8WLEw for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A65393A0E34 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048589.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. 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Contreras" CC: David Sinicrope , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , "Vishnu Pavan Beeram" , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0WwM49orxDf90+zmKjJ0J5mVqlB/ZgmgACATACAAE+JAP//xUDQgAIhngD//9CX7g== Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 19:23:28 +0000 Message-ID: <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-tm-snts-smtp: FEC19F91B7A0FA4EAB50A41F4531ED3537936673F263EC765B5CEA337E690B9C2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5765E489B949424B82178049948AFD08attcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Liaison Statement Management Tool To: Cc: Vishnu Beeram , Path Computation Element Discussion List , Daniele Ceccarelli , Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List , Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List , Scott Mansfield , John Drake , Tarek Saad , Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List , itu-t-liaison@iab.org, Lou Berger , Loa Andersson , Fatai Zhang , Julien Meuric , Alvaro Retana , Deborah Brungard , Nicolai Leymann , scott.mansfield@ericsson.com, Dhruv Dhody , Martin Vigoureux X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159829007777.27288.9464080707579066019@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 10:27:57 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] New Liaison Statement, "Reply to LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan" X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:27:58 -0000 Title: Reply to LS on OTNT Standardization Work Plan Submission Date: 2020-08-24 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1693/ From: Scott Mansfield To: hiroshi.ota@itu.int Cc: Martin Vigoureux ,Loa Andersson ,Julien Meuric ,Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling Discussion List ,Fatai Zhang ,Path Computation Element Discussion List ,John Drake ,itu-t-liaison@iab.org,Scott Mansfield ,Dhruv Dhody ,Multiprotocol Label Switching Discussion List ,Alvaro Retana ,Deborah Brungard ,Vishnu Beeram ,Nicolai Leymann ,Daniele Ceccarelli ,Lou Berger ,Tarek Saad ,Common Control and Measurement Plane Discussion List Response Contacts: scott.mansfield@ericsson.com Technical Contacts: scott.mansfield@ericsson.com Purpose: For information Body: Thank you for your continued interest in the work of the IETF related to OTNT standardization. This liaison is in response to SG15-LS245 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1673/) A list of changes and additions is contained below: + In section 4.7.2 - Delete L2VPN WG - Delete PWE3 WG - NOTE: L2VPN and PWE3 WGs were replaced by the PALS WG, but the PALS WG has mostly concluded its work - Add - PCE WG: Protocols to enable a Path Computation Element-based architecture - TEAS WG: IP, MPLS, and GMPLS Traffic engineering architecture and related control-protocol functions + Updates to Table 11 in section 6.4 - Updates to Internet Drafts - Add * PCEP Extensions for LSP scheduling with stateful PCE https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-stateful-pce-lsp-scheduling/ - Delete expired draft * A framework for Management and Control of DWDM optical interface Parameters https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ccamp-dwdm-if-mng-ctrl-fwk/ - Delete drafts that are now RFCs * PCEP Extension for WSON Routing and Wavelength Assignment (now RFC 8780) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-wson-rwa-ext/ * PCEP extensions for GMPLS (now RFC 8779) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-gmpls-pcep-extensions/ - Delete replaced Internet Drafts * Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) Extensions for remote-initiated GMPLS LSP Setup (merged with PCEP Extension for Flexible Grid Networks Internet Draft) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pce-remote-initiated-gmpls-lsp - Add RFCs - RFC 8237 * October 2017 * MPLS Label Switched Path (LSP) Pseudowire (PW) Status Refresh Reduction for Static PWs * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8237/ - RFC 8469 * November 2018 * Recommendation to Use the Ethernet Control Word * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8469/ - RFC8779 * July 2020 * Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) Extensions for GMPLS * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8779/ - RFC8780 * July 2020 * The Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) Extension for Wavelength Switched Optical Network (WSON) Routing and Wavelength Assignment (RWA) * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8780/ The list of upcoming IETF meetings can be found on the IETF website at https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/upcoming/ Thank You, Daniele Ceccarelli (CCAMP Chair), Fatai Zhang (CCAMP Chair), Dhruv Dhody (PCE Chair), Julien Meuric (PCE Chair), Vishnu Beeram (TEAS Chair), Lou Berger (TEAS Chair), Loa Andersson (MPLS Chair), Nicolai Leymann (MPLS Chair), Tarek Saad (MPLS Chair),and Scott Mansfield (IETF's ITU-T Liaison) Attachments: No document has been attached From nobody Mon Aug 24 10:46:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2A23A0849 for ; 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Mon, 24 Aug 2020 10:46:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> From: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 12:45:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" Cc: "Luis M. Contreras" , David Sinicrope , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa9b2a05ada328d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:46:06 -0000 --000000000000fa9b2a05ada328d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WG, Thanks to everyone who weighed in on the discussion on the adoption call so far. WRT the appendix and terminology: Based on this discussion and the focus of this draft, i.e., definition(s), our recommendations for the authors are as follows: - Add placeholders in the main text for definitions from a transport network slice point of view: - Isolation - Network resources (shared vs dedicated) (Note: we believe it is important for the WG to get consensus on these terms, so just placeholders for now.) - Remove the Appendix The text on solution aspects (how the slice is realized) should not be in this document. Given that the adoption poll will run till September 9th, we think it would be helpful to have these changes made ASAP so that the above changes can be discussed as part of the adoption call. Regards, -Pavan and Lou On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:24 PM BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A wrote: > Hi Luis, > > Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9Cded= icated > resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft? > > It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term has > no meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined > properties e.g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term. > > Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the term - > Can you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and > dedicated resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provid= e > isolation? > > Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as > dedicated resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for= a > single layer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to s= ort out > definitions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies. > > Thanks, > Deborah > (individual) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras > wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Hi Deborah, > > as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on > isolation. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason > why we should include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft > that could be further elaborated in the framework document or in any othe= r. > > For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching certai= n > consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and > discussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably > requires more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in > fact, the importance of keeping it in the definition draft. > > Best regards > > Luis > > El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A () > escribi=C3=B3: > >> Hi, >> >> >> >> (speaking as an individual) >> >> >> >> While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I think it is import= ant to >> sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D. Already by us= e of the term >> =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of this work may be confused with= the traditional >> definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80= =99s >> transport technologies. Important is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80= =9D carefully for >> the IETF context, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing >> =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D i= s a step back to the traditional >> definition. >> >> >> >> As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is used in oth= er SDOs, >> including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2=80=99s a recent publ= icly >> available white paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requirements fr= om >> 3GPP for network slicing: >> >> >> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_= NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf >> >> >> >> >> In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical >> resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, >> security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logic= al >> or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequireme= nt=E2=80=9D. >> Physical and virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize= =E2=80=9D, not >> define. >> >> >> >> I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99s example saying = a >> customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D and saying t= he solution of >> using dedicated resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requirements are met= , >> clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which >> carefully defines resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a >> slice. Maybe the authors intended it to be an example, but it is too >> confusing in the context of this document to mix the definition of >> =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. = While an Appendix, it should not >> clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Deborah >> >> (individual) >> >> >> >> *From:* Teas *On Behalf Of *David Sinicrope >> *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM >> *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct < >> jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>; Kiran Makhijani ; >> Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> Jie, >> >> You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteri= stics of >> network slicing in *most of the related standards and publications,* and >> it would be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And = *in >> IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs,* >> the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and differen= ce >> between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references t= o support >> these claims? I=E2=80=99m specifically referring to the claim that =E2= =80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related >> standards and publications consider isolation as a characteristic. This >> has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the >> history of the IETF. >> >> >> >> If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the >> traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or >> characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. >> >> >> >> Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or text= s >> until the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subse= t >> of the community. >> >> >> >> I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask >> that it be removed. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Teas on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) < >> jie.dong@huawei.com> >> *Sent:* Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM >> *To:* Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> Thanks for your clarification about the procedure. >> >> What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's >> discussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this >> draft. Of course the decision will be made by the WG. >> >> One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is >> that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of netw= ork >> slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be >> incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF hist= ory >> isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion= is >> necessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network >> slice and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it >> tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible >> realization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic. >> >> Best regards, >> Jie >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com >> ] >> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM >> > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani >> > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> > ; TEAS WG >> > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - >> > Appendix >> > >> > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e >> > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In >> > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any >> > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. >> > >> > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix >> > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the >> last >> > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. >> > >> > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not >> seem >> > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. >> > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a >> parameter / this is >> > a parameter" >> > >> > Yours, >> > Joel >> > >> > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: >> > > Hi Joel, >> > > >> > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the >> > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t >> in >> > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some >> > minor edits were not included yet. >> > > >> > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the >> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion >> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran >> > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the >> NS-DT >> > documents. >> > > >> > > Best regards, >> > > Jie >> > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org ] >> On Behalf Of Joel M. >> > >> Halpern >> > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM >> > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> > >> ; TEAS WG >> > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> > >> >> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I >> > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are >> > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the W= G. >> > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. >> > >> >> > >> Yours, >> > >> Joel >> > >> >> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >> > >>> Hi Joel, >> > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included i= n >> > >>> the >> > >> framework first. >> > >>> >> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that th= ey >> > >>> are not >> > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose o= f >> > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of >> > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a >> > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. >> > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks >> > >>> Kiran >> > >>> >> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct >> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >> > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> > >>>> ; TEAS WG >> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >> > >>>> >> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more >> > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of t= he >> > appendix. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Yours, >> > >>>> Joel >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >> > >>>>> Hi Joel, >> > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further >> > >>>>> if they >> > >>>> were convincing. >> > >>>>> Please let us know. >> > >>>>> Thanks >> > >>>>> Kiran >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >> > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, = I >> > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. >> > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Yours, >> > >>>>>> Joel >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >> > >>>>>>> All, >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >> > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working >> > >>>>>>> group >> > >>>>>> document. >> > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/= do >> > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations >> > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide >> > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG >> > >> document. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacatio= n >> > >> season). >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >> > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list >> > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > >> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959= e472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%25= 3A%252F%252Fww >> >> > w. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > ietf.org >> >> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >> > f >> > >>>>>> utur >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > ewei.com >> >> %7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >> > 9 >> > >>>>>> c753a1d >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% >> > 2B >> > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 >> > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>>> Teas mailing list >> > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > >> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959= e472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%25= 3A%252F%252Fww >> >> > w >> > >>>>>> .i >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > etf.org >> >> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >> > u >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > turewei.com >> >> %7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 >> > 01 >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F >> > G >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D >> > 0 >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>> Teas mailing list >> > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > >> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959= e472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%25= 3A%252F%252Fww >> >> > w. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > ietf.org >> >> %2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >> > f >> > >>>> utur >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > ewei.com >> >> %7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >> > 9 >> > >>>> c753a1d >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >> >> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 >> > BL >> > >>>> sLRq9T9a >> > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 >> > >>>>> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> Teas mailing list >> > >> Teas@ietf.org >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> > > > -- > ___________________________________________ > Luis M. Contreras > contreras.ietf@gmail.com > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com > Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > > --000000000000fa9b2a05ada328d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

WG,=

=C2=A0

Thanks to= everyone who weighed in on the discussion on the adoption call so far.

=C2=A0

WRT the a= ppendix and terminology:

=C2=A0

Based on = this discussion and the focus of this draft, i.e., definition(s),=C2=A0 our= recommendations for the authors are as follows:

  • Add placeholders in the main t= ext for definitions from a transport network slice point of view:
    • Isolation
    • Net= work resources (shared vs dedicated)

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (Note: we believe it is important for the WG t= o get consensus on these terms, so just placeholders for now.)

  • Remove the Appendix

=C2=A0

The text = on solution aspects (how the slice is realized) should not be in this docum= ent.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Given tha= t the adoption poll will run till September 9th, we think it would be helpful to have these changes made ASAP so that=C2=A0= =20 the above changes can be discussed as part of the=C2=A0 adoption call.

=C2=A0

Regards,<= /span>

-Pavan an= d Lou


On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:24 PM BRUNGARD,= DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com> wro= te:
Hi Luis,

Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9C= dedicated resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft?

It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term h= as no meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined proper= ties e.g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term.

Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the ter= m - Can you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and = dedicated resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provide = isolation?

Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as ded= icated resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for a si= ngle layer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to sort = out definitions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies.

Thanks,
Deborah
(individual)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras &l= t;contreras.i= etf@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Deborah,

as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isola= tion. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we= should include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that coul= d be further elaborated=C2=A0in the framework document or in any other.

For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching cer= tain consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended=C2=A0a= nd discussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably r= equires more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the importance=C2=A0of keeping it = in the definition draft.=C2=A0

Best regards

Luis

El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BR= UNGARD, DEBORAH A (<= db3546@att.com>) escribi=C3=B3:

Hi,

=C2=A0

(speaking as an individual)

=C2=A0

While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, = I think it is important to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation= =E2=80=9D. Already by use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scop= e of this work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transpo= rt network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. = Important is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF c= ontext, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolat= ion=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to t= he traditional definition.

=C2=A0

As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2= =80=9D is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. H= ere=E2=80=99s a recent publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which s= ummarizes the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099= /012/03.01.01_60/gr_NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf

=C2=A0

In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation p= roperties, physical resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, = resiliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may= be logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. Physical and = virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80=9D, not d= efine.

=C2=A0

I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80= =99s example saying a customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2= =80=9D and saying the solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN) =C2= =A0guarantees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines resources= not as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the authors inten= ded it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context of this doc= ument to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it should n= ot clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)

=C2=A0

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhal= pern.com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

Jie,

You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteristics o= f network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would = be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of V= PNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship an= d difference between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D<= /p>

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do y= ou have references to support these claims?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m specifically = referring to the claim that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and pu= blications consider isolation as a characteristic.=C2=A0 This has not been = my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IET= F.

=C2=A0

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with i= dentification of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any= treatment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.=

=C2=A0

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of th= e discussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only in= troduced by a subset of the community.

=C2=A0

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not n= eeded.=C2=A0 I also ask that it be removed.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Dave

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Don= gjie (Jimmy) <j= ie.dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS = WG
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's disc= ussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of= course the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is tha= t isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network sl= icing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as = one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the rel= ationship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in = the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible r= ealization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@f= uturewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnup= avan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree.=C2= =A0 In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any=
> other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix=
> anywhere.=C2=A0 In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain= the last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.=C2=A0 It doe= s not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a pa= rameter / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about = the
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some<= br> > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the<= br> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion<= br> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is use= ful, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.=C2=A0 Y= ou are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of= the WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is i= ncluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter tex= t that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the pur= pose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology i= n the scope of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizin= g a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com>=
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Bee= ram
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concer= ns.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and m= ore
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the la= st part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have no= t heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joe= l M. Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; = TEAS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised o= n the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted = as a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wr= ote:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on m= aking
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n-03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, plea= se state your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fe= el free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed = once the document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week t= o account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _________________________________________= ______
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e47= 2243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40=
> f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;re= served=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _____________________________________________= __
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e47= 2243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f=
> u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e47= 2243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e= 3&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dh= ttps%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40=
> f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.= org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas=


--
___________________________________________
Luis M. Contreras
Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
--000000000000fa9b2a05ada328d0-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 01:49:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietf.org Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107A53A0BA4; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 01:49:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teas@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.14.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teas@ietf.org Message-ID: <159834537902.19049.17846937162804498549@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 01:49:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-11.txt X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 08:49:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling WG of the IETF. Title : PCE in Native IP Network Authors : Aijun Wang Boris Khasanov Quintin Zhao Huaimo Chen Filename : draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-11.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2020-08-25 Abstract: This document defines the architecture for traffic engineering within native IP network, using multiple BGP sessions strategy and PCE -based central control mechanism. It uses the Central Control Dynamic Routing (CCDR) procedures described in this document, and the Path Computation Element Communication Protocol (PCEP) extension specified in draft ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teas-pce-native-ip-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 25 03:08:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E436B3A0BCD for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 03:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtCDrv09iZZh for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 03:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72DE43A0BD1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 03:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml732-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8B3EC18972A46A8257F3; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:08:12 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) by lhreml732-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:08:10 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:08:08 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:08:08 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" CC: Joel Halpern Direct , "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "Kiran Makhijani" , David Sinicrope , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAZfWsA== Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:08:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_eb7e7c3cb9824c24aef7766965ae2724huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48033A0CFE; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 06:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6ZaDiDW2IFn; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 06:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27D7D3A0D02; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 06:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 83B4A20F3AB862423E1B; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:02:18 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:02:17 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 21:02:15 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 21:02:15 +0800 From: "Wubo (lana)" To: TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 Thread-Index: AdZ1P5DMIL8Bcr5GSFuiszqPVvvriw== Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 13:02:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.52.235.125] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 13:02:22 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpObywgSSdtIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIHRoYXQgYXBwbGllcyB0byB0 aGlzIGRyYWZ0Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQpCbw0KDQotLS0tLdPKvP7Urbz+LS0tLS0NCreivP7Iyzog VGVhcyBbbWFpbHRvOnRlYXMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBMb3UgQmVyZ2VyDQq3osvN yrG85DogMjAyMMTqONTCMTTI1SAyMToyMg0KytW8/sjLOiBKYXJpIEFya2tvIDxqYXJpLmFya2tv QHBpdWhhLm5ldD47IERocnV2IERob2R5IDxkaHJ1di5pZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT47IFJva3VpLCBS 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[107.15.207.138]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm11899731qkb.131.2020.08.25.09.30.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9EFC9729-3FFA-41C1-B8AA-11D99B62541D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: David Sinicrope In-Reply-To: <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:30:18 -0400 Cc: "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , David Sinicrope , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Message-Id: <5DC86712-06B8-4C5F-B2B2-FA56BCEA684A@gmail.com> References: <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:30:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9EFC9729-3FFA-41C1-B8AA-11D99B62541D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree the current term has no meaning, contradicts the main document conce= rning the use of dedicated resources and it should be removed from the docum= ent. I=E2=80=99m sure it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be present in the document= to continue debate and work on it and in the meantime we might get agreemen= t on the rest of the text. Dave > On Aug 22, 2020, at 15:24, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF Hi Luis, >=20 > Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9Cdedi= cated resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft? >=20 > It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term has n= o meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined properties e= .g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term. >=20 > Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the term - C= an you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and dedica= ted resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provide isolati= on? >=20 > Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as dedicat= ed resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for a single l= ayer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to sort out def= initions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies. >=20 > Thanks, > Deborah > (individual) >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: >>>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> Hi Deborah, >>=20 >> as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isolatio= n. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we sho= uld include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that could be f= urther elaborated in the framework document or in any other. >>=20 >> For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching certai= n consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and discus= sed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requires mo= re views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the imp= ortance of keeping it in the definition draft.=20 >>=20 >> Best regards >>=20 >> Luis >>=20 >>> El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (= ) escribi=C3=B3: >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> (speaking as an individual) >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I think it is import= ant to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D. Already by= use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of this work may be c= onfused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlappi= ng with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. Important is to define =E2= =80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF context, which I think this d= ocument is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cde= dicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to the traditional definition. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is used in oth= er SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2=80=99s a recent= publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requireme= nts from 3GPP for network slicing: >>>=20 >>> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr_= NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical r= esources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, security, p= rivacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logical or physical (= and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. Phys= ical and virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80=9D= , not define. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99s example saying a= customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D and saying the s= olution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requirements a= re met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) wh= ich carefully defines resources not as defining a slice but for realizing a s= lice. Maybe the authors intended it to be an example, but it is too confusin= g in the context of this document to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolatio= n=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it= should not clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Deborah >>>=20 >>> (individual) >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> From: Teas On Behalf Of David Sinicrope >>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM >>> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct ; Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Be= eram ; TEAS WG >>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini= tion - Appendix >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Jie, >>>=20 >>> You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteri= stics of network slicing in most of the related standards and publications, a= nd it would be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And i= n IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the= discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and difference betw= een network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references t= o support these claims? I=E2=80=99m specifically referring to the claim tha= t =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and publications consider isolati= on as a characteristic. This has not been my experience at all over the las= t 3 decades including the history of the IETF. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of the= traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or charact= eristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or text= s until the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset o= f the community. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask t= hat it be removed. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>>=20 >>> Dave >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> From: Teas on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) >>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM >>> To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG >>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defini= tion - Appendix >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Hi Joel,=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.=20 >>>=20 >>> What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discu= ssion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of c= ourse the decision will be made by the WG.=20 >>>=20 >>> One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is t= hat isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network s= licing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be in= complete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history is= olation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is ne= cessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network slice= and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to= separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realization me= chanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.=20 >>>=20 >>> Best regards, >>> Jie >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] >>> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM >>> > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani >>> > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>> > ; TEAS WG >>> > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defi= nition - >>> > Appendix >>> >=20 >>> > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to th= e >>> > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. In= >>> > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any= >>> > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. >>> >=20 >>> > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix= >>> > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the l= ast >>> > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. >>> >=20 >>> > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does not= seem >>> > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. >>> > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a paramet= er / this is >>> > a parameter" >>> >=20 >>> > Yours, >>> > Joel >>> >=20 >>> > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: >>> > > Hi Joel, >>> > > >>> > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about the= >>> > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current tex= t in >>> > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some >>> > minor edits were not included yet. >>> > > >>> > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the >>> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion >>> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran >>> > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the= NS-DT >>> > documents. >>> > > >>> > > Best regards, >>> > > Jie >>> > > >>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>> > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. >>> > >> Halpern >>> > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM >>> > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>> > >> ; TEAS WG >>> > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>> > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >>> > >> >>> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I= >>> > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are >>> > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the W= G. >>> > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. >>> > >> >>> > >> Yours, >>> > >> Joel >>> > >> >>> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>> > >>> Hi Joel, >>> > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included i= n >>> > >>> the >>> > >> framework first. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that th= ey >>> > >>> are not >>> > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose o= f >>> > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope of= >>> > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a >>> > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. >>> > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Thanks >>> > >>> Kiran >>> > >>> >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct >>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >>> > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>> > >>>> ; TEAS WG >>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>> > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more >>> > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of t= he >>> > appendix. >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> Yours, >>> > >>>> Joel >>> > >>>> >>> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>> > >>>>> Hi Joel, >>> > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard further= >>> > >>>>> if they >>> > >>>> were convincing. >>> > >>>>> Please let us know. >>> > >>>>> Thanks >>> > >>>>> Kiran >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>> > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern= >>> > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >>> > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>> > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list, I= >>> > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document. >>> > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> Yours, >>> > >>>>>> Joel >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>> > >>>>>>> All, >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>> > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working >>> > >>>>>>> group >>> > >>>>>> document. >>> > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/= do >>> > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations= >>> > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide >>> > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG= >>> > >> document. >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacatio= n >>> > >> season). >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >>> > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list >>> > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-869= 59e472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2= 52F%252Fww >>> > w. >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >>> > f >>> > >>>>>> utur >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >>> > 9 >>> > >>>>>> c753a1d >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% >>> > 2B >>> > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 >>> > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 >>> > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>>>>> Teas mailing list >>> > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-869= 59e472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2= 52F%252Fww >>> > w >>> > >>>>>> .i >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>> > u >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 >>> > 01 >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F >>> > G >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D >>> > 0 >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> > >>>>> Teas mailing list >>> > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-869= 59e472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%2= 52F%252Fww >>> > w. >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >>> > f >>> > >>>> utur >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >>> > 9 >>> > >>>> c753a1d >>> > >>>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > >> >>> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 >>> > BL >>> > >>>> sLRq9T9a >>> > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 >>> > >>>>> >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Teas mailing list >>> > >> Teas@ietf.org >>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teas mailing list >>> Teas@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> ___________________________________________ >> Luis M. Contreras >> contreras.ietf@gmail.com=20 >> luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com >> Global CTIO unit / Telefonica > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-9EFC9729-3FFA-41C1-B8AA-11D99B62541D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree the current term h= as no meaning, contradicts the main document concerning the use of dedicated= resources and it should be removed from the document.  I=E2=80=99m sur= e it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be present in the document to continue debate a= nd work on it and in the meantime we might get agreement on the rest of the t= ext.

Dave

On Aug 22, 2020, at 15:24, BRUNGARD, DEBO= RAH A <db3546@att.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF Hi Luis,

Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9Cd= edicated resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft?

It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term ha= s no meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined properti= es e.g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term.

Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the term= - Can you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and de= dicated resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provide iso= lation?

Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as dedi= cated resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for a sing= le layer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to sort out= definitions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies.

Thanks,
Deborah
(individual)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras <= ;contreras.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Deborah,

as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isolat= ion. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we s= hould include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that could b= e further elaborated in the framework document or in any other.

For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching cert= ain consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and= discussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requ= ires more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the importance of keeping it i= n the definition draft. 

Best regards

Luis

El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRU= NGARD, DEBORAH A (<db3546@att.com&g= t;) escribi=C3=B3:

Hi,

 

(speaking as an individual)

 

While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I= think it is important to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2= =80=9D. Already by use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of= this work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. I= mportant is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF con= text, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolation= =E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to the t= raditional definition.

 

As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80= =9D is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2= =80=99s a recent publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which summariz= es the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03= .01.01_60/gr_NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf

 

In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation pr= operties, physical resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, re= siliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be= logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. Physical and v= irtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80=9D, not def= ine.

 

I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99= s example saying a customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D= and saying the solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN)  guaran= tees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines resources n= ot as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the authors intended= it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context of this documen= t to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it should no= t clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now.

=

 

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.= com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - Appendix

 

Jie,

You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of n= etwork slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would b= e incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VP= Ns, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and d= ifference between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D

 

I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do yo= u have references to support these claims?  I=E2=80=99m specifically re= ferring to the claim that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and publi= cations consider isolation as a characteristic.  This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IETF.=

 

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with id= entification of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any t= reatment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.

 

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the= discussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only intr= oduced by a subset of the community.

 

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not ne= eded.  I also ask that it be removed.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dongj= ie (Jimmy) <jie.= dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS W= G
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - Appendix

 

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussio= n, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cours= e the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is that= isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network slic= ing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be incom= plete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as o= ne requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relat= ionship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in the= last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible re= alization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@fu= turewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnupa= van@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defin= ition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the=
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. = ; In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any<= br> > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix<= br> > anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain t= he last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It does= not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a paramete= r / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about t= he
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text= in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the N= S-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is usef= ul, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  Yo= u are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of t= he WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is in= cluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text= that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purp= ose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the sco= pe of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing= a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs.
= > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concern= s.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and mo= re
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the las= t part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not= heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M= . Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; TE= AS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
= > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on= the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted a= s a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wro= te:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on ma= king
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= -03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "= yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please sta= te your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fee= l free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once t= he document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to= account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e472= 243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40<= br> > f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;res= erved=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ______________________________________________= _
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e472= 243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f<= br> > u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e472= 243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40<= br> > f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.o= rg
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


--
___________________________________________
Luis M. Contreras
Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
_______________________________________________
Teas m= ailing list
Teas@ietf.org
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[107.15.207.138]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r6sm13932389qtu.93.2020.08.25.09.34.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2BC5DA5E-88BE-4760-8915-F5B08848D119 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: David Sinicrope In-Reply-To: <5DC86712-06B8-4C5F-B2B2-FA56BCEA684A@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:34:34 -0400 Cc: "Luis M. Contreras" , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Joel Halpern Direct , Kiran Makhijani , David Sinicrope , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Message-Id: References: <5DC86712-06B8-4C5F-B2B2-FA56BCEA684A@gmail.com> To: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17G80) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:34:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-2BC5DA5E-88BE-4760-8915-F5B08848D119 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just saw Pavan and Lou=E2=80=99s summary and agree with that path forward. Thanks, Dave=20 > On Aug 25, 2020, at 12:30, David Sinicrope wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > I agree the current term has no meaning, contradicts the main document con= cerning the use of dedicated resources and it should be removed from the doc= ument. I=E2=80=99m sure it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be present in the docume= nt to continue debate and work on it and in the meantime we might get agreem= ent on the rest of the text. >=20 > Dave >=20 >>> On Aug 22, 2020, at 15:24, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A wrote: >>>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF Hi Luis, >>=20 >> Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9Cded= icated resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft? >>=20 >> It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term has n= o meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined properties e= .g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term. >>=20 >> Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the term -= Can you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and dedi= cated resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provide isola= tion? >>=20 >> Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as dedica= ted resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for a single= layer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to sort out d= efinitions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Deborah >> (individual) >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> Hi Deborah, >>>=20 >>> as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isolati= on. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we sh= ould include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that could be= further elaborated in the framework document or in any other. >>>=20 >>> For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching certa= in consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and discu= ssed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requires m= ore views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the im= portance of keeping it in the definition draft.=20 >>>=20 >>> Best regards >>>=20 >>> Luis >>>=20 >>>> El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A () escribi=C3=B3: >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> (speaking as an individual) >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I think it is impor= tant to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D. Already b= y use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of this work may be= confused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlap= ping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. Important is to defin= e =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF context, which I think t= his document is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80= =9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to the traditional definition= . >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is used in ot= her SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2=80=99s a recen= t publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which summarizes the requirem= ents from 3GPP for network slicing: >>>>=20 >>>> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03.01.01_60/gr= _NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation properties, physical= resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, resiliency, security= , privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be logical or physic= al (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. P= hysical and virtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80= =9D, not define. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99s example saying= a customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D and saying th= e solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN) guarantees the requiremen= ts are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6= ) which carefully defines resources not as defining a slice but for realizin= g a slice. Maybe the authors intended it to be an example, but it is too con= fusing in the context of this document to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Ciso= lation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendi= x, it should not clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>>=20 >>>> Deborah >>>>=20 >>>> (individual) >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of David Sinicrope >>>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM >>>> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Joel Halpern Direct ; Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan B= eeram ; TEAS WG >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defin= ition - Appendix >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Jie, >>>>=20 >>>> You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the character= istics of network slicing in most of the related standards and publications,= and it would be incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And= in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, t= he discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and difference be= tween network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do you have references t= o support these claims? I=E2=80=99m specifically referring to the claim tha= t =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and publications consider isolati= on as a characteristic. This has not been my experience at all over the las= t 3 decades including the history of the IETF. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with identification of th= e traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any treatment or charac= teristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the discussion or tex= ts until the introduction of network slicing and only introduced by a subset= of the community. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not needed. I also ask t= hat it be removed. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>>=20 >>>> Dave >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: Teas on behalf of Dongjie (Jimmy) >>>> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM >>>> To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS WG >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defin= ition - Appendix >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Joel,=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's disc= ussion, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of c= ourse the decision will be made by the WG.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is= that isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network= slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be i= ncomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history i= solation has been considered as one requirement of VPNs, the discussion is n= ecessary for explaining the relationship and difference between network slic= e and VPNs. Also note that in the last paragraph of the appendix, it tries t= o separate the requirements on isolation from several possible realization m= echanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, >>>> Jie >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com] >>>> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM >>>> > To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Kiran Makhijani >>>> > ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>>> > ; TEAS WG >>>> > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - >>>> > Appendix >>>> >=20 >>>> > The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to t= he >>>> > WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. I= n >>>> > terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as an= y >>>> > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion. >>>> >=20 >>>> > There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendi= x >>>> > anywhere. In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain the= last >>>> > paragraph of teh appendix anywhere. >>>> >=20 >>>> > I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text. It does no= t seem >>>> > to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft. >>>> > If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a parame= ter / this is >>>> > a parameter" >>>> >=20 >>>> > Yours, >>>> > Joel >>>> >=20 >>>> > On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote: >>>> > > Hi Joel, >>>> > > >>>> > > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about th= e >>>> > content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current te= xt in >>>> > the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some= >>>> > minor edits were not included yet. >>>> > > >>>> > > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the >>>> > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion= >>>> > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran >>>> > mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in th= e NS-DT >>>> > documents. >>>> > > >>>> > > Best regards, >>>> > > Jie >>>> > > >>>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. >>>> > >> Halpern >>>> > >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM >>>> > >> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>>> > >> ; TEAS WG >>>> > >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is useful, I= >>>> > >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework. You are >>>> > >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of the W= G. >>>> > >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Yours, >>>> > >> Joel >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>>> > >>> Hi Joel, >>>> > >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is included i= n >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >> framework first. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text that t= hey >>>> > >>> are not >>>> > >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purpose o= f >>>> > >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the scope o= f >>>> > >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing a >>>> > >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs. >>>> > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Thanks >>>> > >>> Kiran >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct >>>> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM >>>> > >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>>> > >>>> ; TEAS WG >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> > >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concerns. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and more >>>> > >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the last part of t= he >>>> > appendix. >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> Yours, >>>> > >>>> Joel >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote: >>>> > >>>>> Hi Joel, >>>> > >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not heard furthe= r >>>> > >>>>> if they >>>> > >>>> were convincing. >>>> > >>>>> Please let us know. >>>> > >>>>> Thanks >>>> > >>>>> Kiran >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >>>>>> From: Teas On Behalf Of Joel M. Halper= n >>>> > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM >>>> > >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram ; TEAS WG >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >>>> > >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on the email list,= I >>>> > >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted as a WG document.= >>>> > >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there. >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> Yours, >>>> > >>>>>> Joel >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: >>>> > >>>>>>> All, >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on making >>>> > >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working >>>> > >>>>>>> group >>>> > >>>>>> document. >>>> > >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no= /do >>>> > >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please state your reservation= s >>>> > >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide >>>> > >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a W= G >>>> > >> document. >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacati= on >>>> > >> season). >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>> > >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >>>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>> > >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86= 959e472243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253= A%252F%252Fww >>>> > w. >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >>>> > f >>>> > >>>>>> utur >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >>>> > 9 >>>> > >>>>>> c753a1d >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4% >>>> > 2B >>>> > >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5 >>>> > >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D0 >>>> > >>>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>> > >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86= 959e472243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253= A%252F%252Fww >>>> > w >>>> > >>>>>> .i >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f >>>> > u >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24 >>>> > 01 >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&sdata=3D%2F >>>> > G >>>> > >>>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&reserved=3D >>>> > 0 >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >>>>> Teas mailing list >>>> > >>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86= 959e472243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&u= =3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253= A%252F%252Fww >>>> > w. >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40 >>>> > f >>>> > >>>> utur >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 >>>> > 9 >>>> > >>>> c753a1d >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3 >>>> > BL >>>> > >>>> sLRq9T9a >>>> > >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&reserved=3D0 >>>> > >>>>> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> Teas mailing list >>>> > >> Teas@ietf.org >>>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Teas mailing list >>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Teas mailing list >>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ___________________________________________ >>> Luis M. Contreras >>> contreras.ietf@gmail.com=20 >>> luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com >>> Global CTIO unit / Telefonica >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --Apple-Mail-2BC5DA5E-88BE-4760-8915-F5B08848D119 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just saw Pavan and Lou=E2=80= =99s summary and agree with that path forward.
Thanks,=
Dave 

On Aug 25, 2020, at 12:30, David Sinicrope <david.sinicrope@gma= il.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
I agree the current term has no meaning, co= ntradicts the main document concerning the use of dedicated resources and it= should be removed from the document.  I=E2=80=99m sure it doesn=E2=80=99= t need to be present in the document to continue debate and work on it and i= n the meantime we might get agreement on the rest of the text.

Dave

On Aug 22, 2020, at 15:24, BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@a= tt.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF Hi Luis,

Not sure if you are saying isolation or the appendix example =E2=80=9Cd= edicated resources=E2=80=9D needs to stay in the draft?

It is the appendix which I am saying needs to be removed as the term ha= s no meaning. Can a dedicated resource be a TE link? It has defined properti= es e.g. bandwidth. It is an IETF term.

Isolation also needs to be better defined so we can understand the term= - Can you find a reference - 3GPP? As I noted, ETSI references 3GPP, and de= dicated resources is not a property of isolation. Does a TE link provide iso= lation?

Yes, this is just an adoption call, but if it defines isolation as dedi= cated resources, this document is more appropriately done in SG15 for a sing= le layer =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D technology network. We need to sort out= definitions/examples appropriate for IETF technologies.

Thanks,
Deborah
(individual)

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Luis M. Contreras <= ;contreras.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Deborah,

as you comment, there are different views from different SDOs on isolat= ion. But we lack our own view in IETF. This is precisely the reason why we s= hould include a preliminary definition on the definitions draft that could b= e further elaborated in the framework document or in any other.

For sure, text is (should be) reviewed up to the point of reaching cert= ain consensus. In fact the current text was hardly debated, amended and= discussed during the design team calls (one per week). Again, probably requ= ires more views as the ones in this thread. I think this reflects, in fact, the importance of keeping it i= n the definition draft. 

Best regards

Luis

El vie., 21 ago. 2020 a las 17:52, BRU= NGARD, DEBORAH A (<db3546@att.com&g= t;) escribi=C3=B3:

Hi,

 

(speaking as an individual)

 

While the document is in it=E2=80=99s early stages, I= think it is important to sort out this use of the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2= =80=9D. Already by use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D, the scope of= this work may be confused with the traditional definition of a transport network and overlapping with ITU-T SG15=E2=80=99s transport technologies. I= mportant is to define =E2=80=9Ctransport=E2=80=9D carefully for the IETF con= text, which I think this document is a good start. Mixing =E2=80=9Cisolation= =E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D is a step back to the t= raditional definition.

 

As the authors note, the term =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80= =9D is used in other SDOs, including 3GPP, but it is used differently. Here=E2= =80=99s a recent publicly available white paper from ETSI NFV which summariz= es the requirements from 3GPP for network slicing:

https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_gr/NFV-EVE/001_099/012/03= .01.01_60/gr_NFV-EVE012v030101p.pdf

 

In this ETSI document, when they discuss isolation pr= operties, physical resources are not mentioned, they discuss performance, re= siliency, security, privacy and management. 3GPP recognizes resources may be= logical or physical (and either fully or partly), it is not a =E2=80=9Crequirement=E2=80=9D. Physical and v= irtual resources are used with respect to =E2=80=9Crealize=E2=80=9D, not def= ine.

 

I agree with Joel and Dave, I think Appendix A=E2=80=99= s example saying a customer will request =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D= and saying the solution of using dedicated resources (vs. VPN)  guaran= tees the requirements are met, clashes with the rest of the document (section 5.3 and section 6) which carefully defines resources n= ot as defining a slice but for realizing a slice. Maybe the authors intended= it to be an example, but it is too confusing in the context of this documen= t to mix the definition of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cdedicated resources=E2=80=9D. While an Appendix, it should no= t clash with the main document. Best is to remove for now.

=

 

Thanks,

Deborah

(individual)

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of David Sinicrope
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 9:11 AM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.= com>; Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - Appendix

 

Jie,

You note =E2=80=9Cisolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of n= etwork slicing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would b= e incomplete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as one requirement of VP= Ns, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relationship and d= ifference between network slice and VPNs.=E2=80=9D

 

I=E2=80=99m not sure where this is coming from. Do yo= u have references to support these claims?  I=E2=80=99m specifically re= ferring to the claim that =E2=80=9Cmost=E2=80=9D related standards and publi= cations consider isolation as a characteristic.  This has not been my experience at all over the last 3 decades including the history of the IETF.=

 

If anything the history of work on VPNs deals with id= entification of the traffic associated with the VPN not its isolation. Any t= reatment or characteristic of that traffic has been a function of QoS.

 

Isolation, in my experience, has not been part of the= discussion or texts until the introduction of network slicing and only intr= oduced by a subset of the community.

 

I agree the text on isolation is confusing and not ne= eded.  I also ask that it be removed.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dongj= ie (Jimmy) <jie.= dong@huawei.com>
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 4:26 AM
To: Joel Halpern Direct; Kiran Makhijani; Vishnu Pavan Beeram; TEAS W= G
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - Appendix

 

Hi Joel,

Thanks for your clarification about the procedure.

What I meant is to provide some background about the design team's discussio= n, which may help the WG to review and give comments on this draft. Of cours= e the decision will be made by the WG.

One of the reasons of keeping the isolation discussion in this draft is that= isolation has been considered as one of the characteristics of network slic= ing in most of the related standards and publications, and it would be incom= plete if the definition draft does not touch this. And in IETF history isolation has been considered as o= ne requirement of VPNs, the discussion is necessary for explaining the relat= ionship and difference between network slice and VPNs. Also note that in the= last paragraph of the appendix, it tries to separate the requirements on isolation from several possible re= alization mechanism, which makes this description reasonably generic.

Best regards,
Jie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Halpern Direct [mailto:jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 11:28 AM
> To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Kiran Makhijani
> <kiranm@fu= turewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> <vishnupa= van@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-defin= ition -
> Appendix
>
> The consensus of the design team is relevant as a recommendation to the=
> WG, but otherwise is not relevant for whether the WG should agree. = ; In
> terms of WG adoption, the design team draft has the same status as any<= br> > other individual draft. The WG comes to its conclusion.
>
> There is no obligation for the WG to retain the text from the appendix<= br> > anywhere.  In particular, the WG is under no obligation to retain t= he last
> paragraph of teh appendix anywhere.
>
> I have not seen any good argument for retaining the text.  It does= not seem
> to add to or even fit with the purpose of the definitions draft.
> If anything, it is confusing at it seems to say "this is not a paramete= r / this is
> a parameter"
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> On 8/20/2020 11:17 PM, Dongjie (Jimmy) wrote:
> > Hi Joel,
> >
> > In the design team there were several rounds of discussion about t= he
> content in the appendix and where it should be placed. The current text= in
> the appendix reflects the consensus of the design team, although some > minor edits were not included yet.
> >
> > As for whether some of the text in appendix will be moved to the > framework document, currently the design team has no specific opinion > about this, and feedbacks from WG are appreciated. While as Kiran
> mentioned, description and discussion about isolation is needed in the N= S-DT
> documents.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jie
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >> Halpern
> >> Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 7:00 AM
> >> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beeram
> >> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix
> >>
> >> Since I do not think that the material in the appendix is usef= ul, I
> >> for one will not push for adding it to the Framework.  Yo= u are
> >> welcome to dabate adding it to the framework with the rest of t= he WG.
> >> But it does not belong in the definitions draft.
> >>
> >> Yours,
> >> Joel
> >>
> >> On 8/20/2020 5:20 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>> Hi Joel,
> >>> I am ok to remove some part from Appendix only if it is in= cluded in
> >>> the
> >> framework first.
> >>>
> >>> But for the TSRE, I have proposed clearer and shorter text= that they
> >>> are not
> >> visible to the consumer of a transport slices. One of the purp= ose of
> >> definitions document is 'define' common terminology in the sco= pe of
> >> transport slices, and all we are saying is that when realizing= a
> >> transport slice, things TSEs will map to are called TSREs.
= > >>> I am not able to see the drawback of saying so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Kiran
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Joel Halpern Direct <jmh.direct@joelhalpern.com> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 1:19 PM
> >>>> To: Kiran Makhijani <kiranm@futurewei.com>; Vishnu Pavan Beera= m
> >>>> <vishnupavan@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
> >>>>
> >>>> No, your replies did not in any way address my concern= s.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would suggest removing the references to TSRE and mo= re
> >>>> importantly removing appendix A.1, or at least the las= t part of the
> appendix.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/20/2020 2:54 PM, Kiran Makhijani wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Joel,
> >>>>> After having replied to your comments, we have not= heard further
> >>>>> if they
> >>>> were convincing.
> >>>>> Please let us know.
> >>>>> Thanks
> >>>>> Kiran
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel M= . Halpern
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 9:04 AM
> >>>>>> To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail..com>; TE= AS WG
> >>>>>> <teas@ietf.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption -
> >>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition
= > >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Without repairs to the issues I have raised on= the email list, I
> >>>>>> do not think this document should be adopted a= s a WG document.
> >>>>>> We are close, but not quite there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yours,
> >>>>>> Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 8/19/2020 11:50 AM, Vishnu Pavan Beeram wro= te:
> >>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is start of a *three* week poll on ma= king
> >>>>>>> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= -03 a TEAS working
> >>>>>>> group
> >>>>>> document.
> >>>>>>> Please send email to the list indicating "= yes/support" or "no/do
> >>>>>>> not support". If indicating no, please sta= te your reservations
> >>>>>>> with the document. If yes, please also fee= l free to provide
> >>>>>>> comments you'd like to see addressed once t= he document is a WG
> >> document.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The poll ends September 9th (extra week to= account for vacation
> >> season).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Pavan and Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> __________________________________________= _____
> >>>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D7d132922-23b3ea8b-7d1369b9-86959e472= 243-a669baec95ff5981&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40<= br> > f
> >>>>>> utur
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2FGSlz2Q4%
> 2B
> >>>>>> RAlZTXBv5
> >>>>>>> XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;res= erved=3D0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ______________________________________________= _
> >>>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D19c50183-4765c22a-19c54118-86959e472= 243-be7fb3e456e3f9a6&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w
> >>>>>> .i
> >>>>
> >>
> etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40f<= br> > u
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> turewei.com%7Cf26ab959470747a36b2808d84459a351%7C0fee8ff2a3b24
> 01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637334499094612048&amp;sdata=3D%2F
> G
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> Slz2Q4%2BRAlZTXBv5XlCZ9YKaUKQ7C4IUIgdQDVJ%2Bk%3D&amp;reserved=3D > 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Teas mailing list
> >>>>> Teas@ietf.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Dd37b5edd-8ddb9d74-d37b1e46-86959e472= 243-a54dacfae536c914&q=3D1&e=3D8a1db88d-cb42-478e-8eb8-da70acca25e3&= amp;u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fnam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp= s%253A%252F%252Fww
> w.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteas&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Ckiranm%40<= br> > f
> >>>> utur
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> ewei.com%7C7bb861e35ac84653b62208d8454659ac%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018
> 9
> >>>> c753a1d
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637335515772670726&amp;sdata=3DMZQKraVa8fj3
> BL
> >>>> sLRq9T9a
> >>>>> Ypp3C%2Bu1w9c7DgIVE6kE0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 > >>>>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teas mailing list
> >> Teas@ietf.o= rg
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas


--
___________________________________________
Luis M. Contreras
Global CTIO unit / Telefonica
_______________________________________________
Teas m= ailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/teas
= --Apple-Mail-2BC5DA5E-88BE-4760-8915-F5B08848D119-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 12:59:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA873A0B5C for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DBCG073skDQ for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0417D3A0B59 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9622766016D; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:59:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ww9OldpjKYqo; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:59:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76FEB6600B9; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:59:45 +0300 (EEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Jari Arkko In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:59:45 +0300 Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> To: TEAS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:59:53 -0000 High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes = if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing = proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide = both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective = on this. Design team discussions:=20 We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls = we=E2=80=99ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared = observation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less = widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to = this. On the other side, there was our shared agreement that what = matters from a requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other = requirements, and that there are several techniques that can provide the = desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth = the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that = the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by = themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99= s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the = industry relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D. I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. = Delete and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective:=20 My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented = matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.=20 If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the = primary characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. = Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that = this notion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can = be represented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be = discussed further in this document. One could perhaps also point out = that there are multiple ways to implement the primary characteristics = promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s = happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. = But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, = and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m = fine with that, too. Jari From nobody Tue Aug 25 15:32:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBB13A0770 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uc2s58T8gMuh for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD8A83A052C for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id g1so6520pgm.9 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version; bh=0zhsAFQO0Jj3sXPAnjhROj3lTP75f1fAcw/Q7+ndpqU=; b=MXumKZiDzJZywecHZENpmWce0QTiHB7m6wZKQ8KkEzHGuSfmFiYbTdf16OjZK7AHCu I3NOvVU5aa2hv61NGs1yBWcDdrK/swef7cLQ/p6XktXjFGwnLr4cfuWjUhSYdS0p0uID I2xh4fjCVqHZGBoW8UsdbWBrN0NE+rc+wBsJF0P1yfVoeTF8igJHxzDD91p+e+tKqGl7 I5dNXziSNB40WuXlpIeDVXWN/wll9molamHuom1bmShLry7HU8JDXDi6bDFW6eTJ655Q 0ZoHFtaAPXElMgFsN0cG69vXWG++8lfELwKnss4dgK1cEiITnlehS9r4f3j/zjEHcUEx ja+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version; bh=0zhsAFQO0Jj3sXPAnjhROj3lTP75f1fAcw/Q7+ndpqU=; b=GkSs3LBpVPgKC8h2AWa4RJlxbCwnb0Q6lwoMiOa8WI6SJ4fkjrlqbtdMzECY9kBqEF j08ycJlNLrkKHwTLtUMq12b9yuuMm4QOyaAUEyYHCjk2A/t9jz/2P5Le3B3cUU2mzSyb fQ5PFWFtvKLjZ6P/c6wcMKz1S6G8TiXsqr2nU/3lrmRsyGq2hOBgbWYGH2Nb2/iK1y0z E2+XySgjlrFX4Eyp17/zfUsnqEnN5NszauZLCXUS3PxRt+pOIKRwyJ0Q5Dqdb0bhgm1P HHWaeTnjZKLwRY7dtGB2rYaN2+ZKiOYe/znbIw9I1rczBZ3Qo1d0Z4ruDTubAy/X1UE/ 8b6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OcE3Fu4JLPpMYdj/hlORYdOwV3qEHf5nP9DQLqbHfYZOjTelZ l2IAfoCusAmMDzQ9ewnAsqYdiQCD1ms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxjqAxvx4JN7tJmthB8/cwzQG7xUesQL+kGkrd6s9RjlUlBxha6Rzfvkh9dAI332hwX2hEoyw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:3d8c:: with SMTP id k134mr8016605pga.279.1598394729717; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.8] (047-036-118-016.res.spectrum.com. [47.36.118.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id il14sm94540pjb.10.2020.08.25.15.32.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:31:58 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: TEAS WG , Jari Arkko Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: a2a3697e-53d0-4d61-8323-532cb74d5444@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5f459167_4c04a8af_f91" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:32:13 -0000 --5f459167_4c04a8af_f91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally b= inding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical= SRLG or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation= logic. There are connectivity R=46Is that explciteily require full physical sepa= ration/isolation - finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resil= iency, etc. We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal)= or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the docum= ent evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , wro= te: > High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes = if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing p= roposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. > > When it comes to the isolation topic, however, =46WIW, I wanted to prov= ide both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspecti= ve on this. > > Design team discussions: > > We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the call= s we=E2=80=99ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared = observation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less wide= ly shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. = On the other side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from = a requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and th= at there are several techniques that can provide the desired characterist= ic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider= has agreed to give you. > > The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that = the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themse= lves. The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s mul= tiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry rel= ates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D. > > I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. D= elete and move on, no biggie :-) > > Personal perspective: > > My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented mat= ches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > > I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. > > If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the prima= ry characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I w= ould write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notio= n isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represe= nted using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed f= urther in this document. One could perhaps also point out that there are = multiple ways to implement the primary characteristics promises, so that = those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your nei= ghbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from thi= s thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant = to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, too. > > Jari > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Teas mailing list > Teas=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --5f459167_4c04a8af_f91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good= /working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally b= inding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical= SRLG or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in&=23160;&=23160;a path computa= tion logic.
There are connectivity R=46Is that explciteily require full physical sepa= ration/isolation - finance for security reasons,&=23160;&=23160;DCI for r= esiliency, etc.

We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal)= or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the docum= ent evolves.&=23160;

Cheers,
Jeff
On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Ja= ri Arkko <jari.arkko=40piuha.net>, wrote:
High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With = changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for pre= paring proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, =46WIW, I wanted to provid= e both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective= on this.

Design team discussions:

We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls = we=E2=80=99ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared ob= servation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely= shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On= the other side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a = requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that= there are several techniques that can provide the desired characteristic= of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider h= as agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that th= e top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselv= es. The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multi= ple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relat= es to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Del= ete and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented match= es with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary= characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I wou= ld write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion = isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represent= ed using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed fur= ther in this document. One could perhaps also point out that there are mu= ltiple ways to implement the primary characteristics promises, so that th= ose promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neigh= bour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from this = thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant to= write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, too.

Jari

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
Teas mailing list
Teas=40ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--5f459167_4c04a8af_f91-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 16:33:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF6D3A086D for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WMF3fAE9E5-b for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A0BD3A0866 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id w3so128098ilh.5 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:32:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gn3yR57512zPChvyCA9/P9DfdWbSsDCJ/cMOAto1iUY=; b=dM5Vt3J7jrjfK/Ctl0SzcHJUd6Bu6nPX4IR2D0U5bB8y335SlGLg4gAFjNLnVpEY7w 9rDRvpvJbwE/n7qXDbUfSMM8vI8HT8IzYK5XpIPLUNj6Ywec640TdLnLr4E1kp4pgcaq xPm/0xJ81fAmasusRUenw0nuNIlC1fvw9FRykZ20Iba9VoawO6lzABlhEoaWfyWo1222 Ra1HCyPuht7jHsXo5wJPEgNVll4/pc/k8oh1hKI+VXns9FcIDR6eUir2kiIO8MDk0Olk P0Hu61urPsbE5RD85KMDaW0nHRXi2zR4+eAQ2v5MLOK7hEmMyOGH1dzzz+rTO6pDcY4O RimA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gn3yR57512zPChvyCA9/P9DfdWbSsDCJ/cMOAto1iUY=; b=S0j09WwR5m0CYx0MTlcBnScok6r0rbnVvGboWAkAlbsEX54Cc4dOuAc9GpSUMDFZ9F ABbnkFRK+OeEJZXzL3lCbZAys4fFYT3WV7vI2kBWG9OdQJl5EsGHXsvPoom9K6g2Y8MK SIt20BJbSYI8LyNKsK/784E9i4cCUfFBjagy32SGNGItZB3dF+XCaWOXXP1VaIrQenF7 Ph8XWCZiZwGEt3UAiKZr8/Qa8ysoQfxyEUC7gjFkjALqbINgywNTCuaRpJAa4oQVyy1M MLosfrJNEGK3A0PhNtmlt3S3KlnkM2Cc+gD7gbzcS17s0Tr83HLQjuQo+BR3X8yB0Dqs KlDQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5323nA2tUDN4/47wl0bs7+3GI1jLHaLqddTMxAUT75gXMsQx0FEo YQRlHFEctWbyxAJX7AKSEK7llVNf2BbYT4qrgAA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJJV0WUG0gd3h7fDEE+TZORQrSlAorz87XoGPh+yDUpBnKeKaJKJWIQ3dm6OY8kDJ/mLjy8CJBq41YL8cQwKQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9881:: with SMTP id a1mr11406546ill.232.1598398377233; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:32:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Young Lee Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:32:45 +0900 Message-ID: To: Jeff Tantsura Cc: TEAS WG , Jari Arkko , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007c11ed05adbc1f2b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:33:00 -0000 --0000000000007c11ed05adbc1f2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 If isolation is not the right term in IETF, I'd think a reasonable compromise is to use terms like 'sharing property' or a similar term. The extreme case of the attributes under this property disjointness in port/node/link/path level. This would be equivalent to private dedicated network level if you will. Other level of sharing can be enumerated thereof. Thanks. Young 2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 26=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 7:32, J= eff Tantsura =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1= : > I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. > While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally > binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physica= l > SRLG or disjointness. > It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. > There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical > separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, > etc. > > We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal)= or find > an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document > evolves. > > Cheers, > Jeff > On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , wrote= : > > High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if > needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing > proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. > > When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide > both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective o= n > this. > > Design team discussions: > > We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls = we=E2=80=99ve had > for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that > industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared > conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the oth= er > side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement > perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are > several techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not > having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agree= d > to give you. > > The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that th= e > top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves= . > The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple = ways to achieve > this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in th= is > indirect way=E2=80=9D. > > I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. > Delete and move on, no biggie :-) > > Personal perspective: > > My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented > matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > > I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. > > If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary > characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I woul= d write a > footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation h= as > also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the > primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this > document. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways t= o > implement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises ca= n > be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s tr= affic. And leave > it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant t= o > do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I= =E2=80=99m > fine with that, too. > > Jari > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --0000000000007c11ed05adbc1f2b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1=C2=A0

If isolation is not the right term in IETF, I'd think a reasonable co= mpromise is to use terms like 'sharing property' or a similar term.= The extreme case of the attributes under this property disjointness in por= t/node/link/path level. This would be equivalent to private dedicated netwo= rk level if you will. Other level of sharing can be enumerated thereof.=C2= =A0

Thanks.
Young=C2=A0


2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 26=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) = =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 7:32, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC= =84=B1:
I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/worki= ng way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal) o= r find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document = evolves.=C2=A0

Cheers,
Jeff
On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Ark= ko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:
High-level = bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let = the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authori= ty to do stuff is entirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we= =E2=80=99ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observ= ation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely share= d conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the oth= er side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requiremen= t perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are s= everal techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having= your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to giv= e you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple wa= ys to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to ou= r work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would w= rite a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolat= ion has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using= the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in th= is document. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways = to implement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises c= an be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s t= raffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from this thread that people= are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything abou= t isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, too.

Jari

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= br>
--0000000000007c11ed05adbc1f2b-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 16:51:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBD13A08CB for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AY1NpCvNTDhu for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x934.google.com (mail-ua1-x934.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::934]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93CAE3A08C7 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x934.google.com with SMTP id s29so14128uae.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K0FdJMIYE4RQ8w62oRG5JJbU7QVe7BSMQofhe7Co/9c=; b=afpRjfiU9zYlkExCqoyNmDLhaIJVuvf9gy5za/PmzSunknEc72k86b+nm0JlTYak3A 8ybywaK49on3pyACoMFxk0g+3An3hljYsug12hoMgDr4p73NrjjfRwVbDnmzx9qaGm37 QcwXdebp2yHCt1TfBfDgqZspH8OQ2xR9WBS56n0ejJKT2jUsImGdV+uE4na6aiSDWjXM 9X4eYLIanouBzSEgVIUxcRNcEnGXrxUXFvlGoLaIVIQv4Hdn2g/9woW0nACLdIbbbKvk NFsDut6EKmIqngxYlqgea0ZybeIspmcppUpgT8Zi/c9AEHjpJGoM3ub1vLfbU17p0dPy eXFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K0FdJMIYE4RQ8w62oRG5JJbU7QVe7BSMQofhe7Co/9c=; b=K0b0y906ES03nlFXaiwTgjXfx0un+qf29tS+OVsFVc0kpsj+6+p0+yOmkIcUL4U1Es cnXZpQOa7vegbpn9hJJOv5C54VPSX4Ka0rwmNPva+uG3WSS0rPopYavAfbyWB9JOSs5k RSeogj1ZH3GYaZNd5mghp18eks9i3a3xGfrxV9HVoPqJUDzAt0VKH+R6NVSOknqUMbmd g8ScWHSk9n68pjCkuMkTlpTuZXziEu2S15JSHsp0dg7iIAQghUZr2wLWLMTVlUaeUfvJ RT81K5YxvfkGwMJTro4Q7Z7DbvGyMf3JbGudO5jiA1H5A7ChDtebJ68N80xW0+Lm4wFv fnxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532mfrn/2osqz18TJvzvALu1hVdVyIxkmxOLkNr4Fdhe0tXD9tTe 719YM/VeWhO20+q6y2q7prjce1mR2iURiNZ/YUs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyX5k2a73ZL1moUBS/fuHzq+xhBSgKLEHmXm4trrwoKyMddi6NObmBDjfc8nIYmQUyRJOEFB60wyRZ3TpvvFPc= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:6054:: with SMTP id o20mr7072136ual.87.1598399493462; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Uma Chunduri Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:51:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Young Lee Cc: Jeff Tantsura , Jari Arkko , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000045ff505adbc628d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 23:51:37 -0000 --000000000000045ff505adbc628d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 (Jeff and Young). 2 quick thoughts: a) Sometimes (based on the context) it also can be viewed as isolation from the best-effort/shortest-path traffic path or a TE tunnel specifically created for that slice (one basic form of isolation in the TE world). Extreme form of isolation lends itself to a dedicated network (private 5G) and that may not be much to do with this document, perhaps. b) In the below message, though it might be giving an example "... desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you." It sounded like what an end user is getting from an SP? If that is the case the scope is way bigger than PE to PE case (need to read the latest version to see what's the scope). In any case, it's good to clarify the entreprise traffic isolation or end user. If it is later the implications that need to be dealt with would be much more here. And finally isolation in all cases in shared infrastructure could be a myth= . -- Uma C. On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 4:33 PM Young Lee wrote: > +1 > > If isolation is not the right term in IETF, I'd think a reasonable > compromise is to use terms like 'sharing property' or a similar term. The > extreme case of the attributes under this property disjointness in > port/node/link/path level. This would be equivalent to private dedicated > network level if you will. Other level of sharing can be enumerated > thereof. > > Thanks. > Young > > > 2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 26=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 7:32,= Jeff Tantsura =EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84= =B1: > >> I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. >> While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally >> binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physic= al >> SRLG or disjointness. >> It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. >> There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical >> separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency= , >> etc. >> >> We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal= ) or find >> an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document >> evolves. >> >> Cheers, >> Jeff >> On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , >> wrote: >> >> High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes i= f >> needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing >> proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. >> >> When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide >> both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective = on >> this. >> >> Design team discussions: >> >> We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls= we=E2=80=99ve >> had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation tha= t >> industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared >> conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the ot= her >> side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requiremen= t >> perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are >> several techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not >> having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agre= ed >> to give you. >> >> The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that >> the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by >> themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80= =99s multiple ways >> to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to ou= r >> work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D. >> >> I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. >> Delete and move on, no biggie :-) >> >> Personal perspective: >> >> My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented >> matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. >> >> I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. >> >> If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primar= y >> characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I wou= ld write a >> footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation = has >> also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the >> primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this >> document. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways = to >> implement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises c= an >> be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s t= raffic. And leave >> it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant = to >> do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I= =E2=80=99m >> fine with that, too. >> >> Jari >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --000000000000045ff505adbc628d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 (Jeff and Young).

2 quick thoughts:

a) Sometimes (based on the co= ntext) it also can be viewed as isolation from the best-effort/shortest-pat= h traffic path or a TE tunnel specifically created for that slice (one basi= c form of isolation in the TE world). Extreme form of=C2=A0=C2=A0isolation= =C2=A0lends itself to a dedicated network (private 5G) and that may not be = much to do with this document, perhaps.

b) In the = below message, though it might be giving an example
=C2=A0 =C2=A0= "... desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth th= e service provider has agreed to give you."

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0It sounded like what an end user is getting from an SP? If tha= t is the case the scope is way bigger than PE to PE case (need to read the = latest version to see what's the scope).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In any = case, it's good to clarify the entreprise traffic isolation or end user= . If it is later the implications that need to be dealt with would be much = more here.

And finally isolation in all cases in s= hared infrastructure could be a myth.


--
Uma C.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0
On Tue, = Aug 25, 2020 at 4:33 PM Young Lee <younglee.tx@gmail.com> wrote:
+1=C2=A0
<= br>
If isolation is not the right term in IETF, I= 9;d think a reasonable compromise is to use terms like 'sharing propert= y' or a similar term. The extreme case of the attributes under this pro= perty disjointness in port/node/link/path level. This would be equivalent t= o private dedicated network level if you will. Other level of sharing can b= e enumerated thereof.=C2=A0

Thanks.
Young=C2=A0


2020=EB=85=84 8=EC=9B=94 = 26=EC=9D=BC (=EC=88=98) =EC=98=A4=EC=A0=84 7:32, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.c= om>=EB=8B=98=EC=9D=B4 =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1:
I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/worki= ng way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal) o= r find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document = evolves.=C2=A0

Cheers,
Jeff
On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Ark= ko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:
High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted.= With changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for= preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we= =E2=80=99ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observ= ation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely share= d conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the oth= er side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requiremen= t perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are s= everal techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having= your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to giv= e you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple wa= ys to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to ou= r work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would w= rite a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolat= ion has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using= the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in th= is document. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways = to implement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises c= an be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s t= raffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from this thread that people= are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything abou= t isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, too.

Jari

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
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Teas@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= br>
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
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boundary="000000000000d5309105adbd8348" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 01:12:39 -0000 --000000000000d5309105adbd8348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" yes/support. Thanks, - Xufeng On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends Aug 27th. > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --000000000000d5309105adbd8348 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes/support.

Thanks,
- Xufeng

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM Vis= hnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@g= mail.com> wrote:
All,

This is start of a two week poll on making
dra= ft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document.
Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "n= o/do not
support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends Aug 27th.

Thanks,
Pavan and Lou
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
--000000000000d5309105adbd8348-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 19:40:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECD73A0C53 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:40:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id goWQH1GdzesE for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D9293A0BEF for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 19:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml727-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B2C98F2ED94C2B1C6534; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:40:01 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) by lhreml727-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:40:00 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme753-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.99) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:39:58 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:39:58 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , "Jari Arkko" CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgADFS3A= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:39:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c45ed6dd357842818c5840793cb17f36huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 02:40:07 -0000 --_000_c45ed6dd357842818c5840793cb17f36huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 And one more supplementary comment about "Isolation is not a directly measu= rable SLO". Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation coul= d not described by number/value. But it doesn't mean that it is an abstract= concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE = link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good = discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don'= t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don't think the def= inition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is= different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define = it in IETF. We can't say we could not get to somewhere because there is no = path. Build the path by ourselves. Xuesong From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM To: TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, etc. We could pretend it doesn't exist (which is the complete removal) or find a= n appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if n= eeded. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposa= ls. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is. Design team discussions: We've had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we've had = for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indus= try uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) th= at it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there w= as our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is= the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several technique= s that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour = affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that "there's multiple ways to achieve th= is, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in this i= ndirect way". I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective: My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I'm fine removing the appendix. If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics - such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a f= ootnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has = also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pri= mary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docum= ent. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to imple= ment the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be ke= pt despite what's happening with your neighbour's traffic. And leave it at = that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do tha= t, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I'm fine wi= th that, too. Jari _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_c45ed6dd357842818c5840793cb17f36huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

And one more supplementary comment about “Isola= tion is not a directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/valu= e. But it doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not = be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or not.= It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because w= e don’t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I donR= 17;t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in= mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can’= t say we could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the pat= h by ourselves. 

 

Xuesong

 

From: = Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.n= et>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I find Pavan and Lou proposal r= easonable and a good/working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which = is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG de= scription as the document evolves. 

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700= , Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.n= et>, wrote:

High-level bit: I would like to= see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Desig= n teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is en= tirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We’ve had variants of this discussion on = almost all of the calls we’ve had for the= last year. One one side there was our shared observation that industry use= s the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the othe= r side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement= perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are se= veral techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwid= th the service provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that “there’= s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry = relates to our work in this indirect way”= .

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I’m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics — such as that we promise you n GB/s. The= n I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this no= tion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be repres= ented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhap= s also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary char= acteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with your neighbour’s traffic. And leave= it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to= do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine with that, too.

Jari

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/teas

--_000_c45ed6dd357842818c5840793cb17f36huaweicom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 25 22:53:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275653A0D78; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:52:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19-NWPridxBj; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p130.piuha.net (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E82473A0D71; Tue, 25 Aug 2020 22:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213A166018B; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:52:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5wdK9qL6AVjr; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:52:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [IPv6:2001:14b8:1829::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 542436600BB; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:52:50 +0300 (EEST) From: Jari Arkko Message-Id: <0A63B1F5-09EA-488E-880A-4DF057492E7C@piuha.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FBFDC9CD-0AD1-4D12-AB41-4E7BB9FDD6C3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:52:50 +0300 In-Reply-To: <202008260911106512572@zte.com.cn> Cc: TEAS WG , Dhruv Dhody , "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , Xufeng Liu , Jie Dong , Eric Gray , John E Drake To: TEAS WG Chairs References: <202008260911106512572@zte.com.cn> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] Regarding IPR on draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 05:52:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FBFDC9CD-0AD1-4D12-AB41-4E7BB9FDD6C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. (Sorry for not responding sooner; was coming back from vacations) Jari > On 26 Aug 2020, at 4.11, = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, >=20 > No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. >=20 > Regards, > Ran >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Lou Berger > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5= 21:22 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Jari Arkko ; Dhruv = Dhody ; Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) = ; Xufeng Liu ; Dongjie = (Jimmy) ; Eric Gray ; John = E Drake =20 > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: TEAS WG Chairs ; TEAS WG = =20 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Teas] Regarding IPR on = draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 >=20 > Authors, Contributors, WG, >=20 > As part of the preparation for polling for WG document adoption: >=20 > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to draft identified above? >=20 > Please state either: >=20 > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"=20 > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"=20 >=20 > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules = (see RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for more details)? >=20 > If yes to the above, please state either: >=20 > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules"=20= > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed"=20 >=20 > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. >=20 > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer = the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you = are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the = next stage until a response has been received from each author and = listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS = MESSAGE'S TO LINES. >=20 > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not = listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations = under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you = are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from = participating in any contribution or discussion related to your = undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above = and = http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. = >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Lou (and Pavan) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas = > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas = --Apple-Mail=_FBFDC9CD-0AD1-4D12-AB41-4E7BB9FDD6C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

(Sorry for not = responding sooner; was coming back from vacations)

Jari

On 26 Aug 2020, at 4.11, <chen.ran@zte.com.cn>= <chen.ran@zte.com.cn> wrote:

Hi all,

No, I'm not aware of any IPR = ;that applies to this draft.

Regards,
Ran



-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = Lou Berger
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B4= 8=E6=9C=8814=E6=97=A5 21:22
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Jari Arkko &= lt;jari.arkko@piuha.net>; Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com>; Rokui, Reza (Nokia=  - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>; Xufeng Liu <xufeng.liu.ietf@gmail.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy)&nb= sp;<jie.dong@huawei.com>; Eric Gray <eric.gray@ericsson.com>; John E Drake&nbs= p;<jdrake@juniper.net> 
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: TEAS WG Chairs &= lt;teas-chairs@ietf.org>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org> 
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Teas] Regarding IPR on=  draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04

Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of the preparation for po= lling for WG document adoption:

Are you aware of any IPR that&nbs= p;applies to draft identified above?

   Please state either:

   "No, I'm not aware of&nbs= p;any IPR that applies to this draft" <= /span>
   or
   "Yes, I'm aware of IPR&nb= sp;that applies to this draft" 

If so, has this IPR been disclose= d in compliance with IETF IPR rules (se= e RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 and 5378 for&nb= sp;more details)?

If yes to the above, please state=  either:

   "Yes, the IPR has been&nb= sp;disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rul= es" 
   or
   "No, the IPR has not = ;been disclosed" 

If you answer no, please provide = any additional details you think
   appropriate.

If you are listed as a document&n= bsp;author or contributor please answer the = above by responding to this email regardless=  of whether or not you are aware o= f any relevant IPR.  This document will=  not advance to the next stage until&nb= sp;a response has been received from each&nb= sp;author and listed contributor.  NOTE: THI= S APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN = THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email l= ist or attend WG meetings but are not&n= bsp;listed as an author or contributor, we&n= bsp;remind you of your obligations under the=  IETF IPR rules which encourages you to=  notify the IETF if you are aware = of IPR of others on an IETF contributio= n, or to refrain from participating in = any contribution or discussion related to yo= ur undisclosed IPR. For more information, pl= ease see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualPro= perty.

Thank you,

Lou (and Pavan)

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

<= /blockquote>

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--_000_HE1PR07MB41561BC68156C6A4AC666F5EF0540HE1PR07MB4156eurp_-- From nobody Wed Aug 26 03:45:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBECF3A0BB6; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ABndluFvlMlT; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFC7D3A0B30; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 03:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml710-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3F6CA211109818109B69; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:45:10 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) by lhreml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:45:10 +0100 Received: from lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.201.108.68]) by lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.201.108.68]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:45:09 +0100 From: Khasanov Boris To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG CC: TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability Thread-Index: AQHWceQV6zJefkc03UKdrh3H+x7ozKlKRwfg Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:45:09 +0000 Message-ID: <84a662232cf04be48e7039c4f492a41d@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: 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2020 05:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92C1A3A0CA8 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 05:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 455496A8794C0F8D6319; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:55:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.97) by lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:55:40 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme751-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:55:37 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:55:38 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Jari Arkko CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W34J/WNHjo5UOG7rbDhHZZJ6lByflg//+Xi4CAALyfAP//5h8AgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgABFSgCAAS4iEA== Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:55:37 +0000 Message-ID: <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.143] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0ahuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:55:46 -0000 --_000_30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0ahuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to = have input from the WG about these terms. For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifying t= he isolation requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, = such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, et= c., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develop= ed in IETF. Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a= transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to som= e specific isolation requirement. Best regards, Jie From: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM To: Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; Jari = Arkko Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix +1 And one more supplementary comment about "Isolation is not a directly measu= rable SLO". Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation coul= d not described by number/value. But it doesn't mean that it is an abstract= concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE = link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good = discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don'= t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don't think the def= inition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is= different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define = it in IETF. We can't say we could not get to somewhere because there is no = path. Build the path by ourselves. Xuesong From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM To: TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, etc. We could pretend it doesn't exist (which is the complete removal) or find a= n appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if n= eeded. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposa= ls. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is. Design team discussions: We've had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we've had = for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indus= try uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) th= at it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there w= as our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is= the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several technique= s that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour = affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that "there's multiple ways to achieve th= is, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in this i= ndirect way". I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective: My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I'm fine removing the appendix. If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics - such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a f= ootnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has = also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pri= mary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docum= ent. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to imple= ment the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be ke= pt despite what's happening with your neighbour's traffic. And leave it at = that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do tha= t, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I'm fine wi= th that, too. Jari _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0ahuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I also agree with the = proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to have input from the WG= about these terms.

 

For isolation, there w= as some discussion in design team about classifying the isolation requireme= nt into different dimensions in the context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, e= tc., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develo= ped in IETF.

 

Perhaps we could follo= w this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a transport slice point= of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to some specific isolation requirement.

 

Best regards,

Jie<= /p>

 

 

From: = Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@= ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

+1

And one more supplementary comment about “Isola= tion is not a directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/valu= e. But it doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not = be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or not.= It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because w= e don’t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I donR= 17;t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in= mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can’= t say we could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the pat= h by ourselves. 

 

Xuesong

 

From: = Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org&g= t;; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha= .net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I find Pavan and Lou proposal r= easonable and a good/working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which = is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG de= scription as the document evolves. 

 

Cheers,

Jeff

= On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:

High-level bit: I would like to= see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Desig= n teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is en= tirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We’ve had variants of this discussion on = almost all of the calls we’ve had for the= last year. One one side there was our shared observation that industry use= s the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the othe= r side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement= perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are se= veral techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwid= th the service provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that “there’= s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry = relates to our work in this indirect way”= .

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I’m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics — such as that we promise you n GB/s. The= n I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this no= tion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be repres= ented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhap= s also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary char= acteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with your neighbour’s traffic. And leave= it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to= do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine with that, too.

Jari

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/teas

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I see different interpretations of isolation and they make me think we don'= t need it, let me try to explain why. 1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a given traffic must= not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a link...that= 's what we commonly call "disjointness", right? We've been speaking about S= RLG disjointness for decades. 2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of interf= erence from any type of traffic in the network...that's a leased line, or a= dedicated network...we can't really speak about network slice there. If I got the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases co= vered. Am I missing any other requirement? BR Daniele From: Teas On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy) Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56 To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) ; Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to = have input from the WG about these terms. For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifying t= he isolation requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, = such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, et= c., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develop= ed in IETF. Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a= transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to som= e specific isolation requirement. Best regards, Jie From: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM To: Jeff Tantsura >= ; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix +1 And one more supplementary comment about "Isolation is not a directly measu= rable SLO". Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation coul= d not described by number/value. But it doesn't mean that it is an abstract= concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE = link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good = discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don'= t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don't think the def= inition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is= different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define = it in IETF. We can't say we could not get to somewhere because there is no = path. Build the path by ourselves. Xuesong From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM To: TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, etc. We could pretend it doesn't exist (which is the complete removal) or find a= n appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if n= eeded. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposa= ls. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is. Design team discussions: We've had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we've had = for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indus= try uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) th= at it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there w= as our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is= the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several technique= s that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour = affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that "there's multiple ways to achieve th= is, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in this i= ndirect way".. I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective: My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I'm fine removing the appendix. If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics - such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a f= ootnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has = also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pri= mary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docum= ent. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to imple= ment the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be ke= pt despite what's happening with your neighbour's traffic. And leave it at = that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do tha= t, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I'm fine wi= th that, too. Jari _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_HE1PR07MB4156650423734880FBB37ADBF0540HE1PR07MB4156eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 =

I see dif= ferent interpretations of isolation and they make me think we don’t n= eed it, let me try to explain why.

&nbs= p;

  1. In some cases I see as req= uirement the fact that a given traffic must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a link…that’= ;s what we commonly call “disjointness”, right? We’ve bee= n speaking about SRLG disjointness for decades.
  2. In some other cases the require= ment is not to have any type of interference from any type of traffic in the network…that’s a leased line, = or a dedicated network…we can’t really speak about network slic= e there.

&nbs= p;

If I got = the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases covered.

Am I miss= ing any other requirement?

&nbs= p;

BR
Daniele 

&nbs= p;

From: = Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)
Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff = Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Ja= ri Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is importan= t to have input from the WG about these terms.

 

For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classify= ing the isolation requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidanc= e, failure protection, etc., then each can be mapped to corresponding mecha= nisms defined and developed in IETF.

 

Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation f= rom a transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to some specific isolation requirement.

 

Best regards,

Jie

 

 

From:<= /span> Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <= teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

+1

And one more supplementary= comment about “Isolation is not a directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation cou= ld not described by number/value. But it doesn’t mean that it is an a= bstract concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whet= her TE link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is= no conclusion yet just because we don’t even allow it to be existing= in an WG document. And I don’t think the definition of other SDOs re= ally matter. Because isolation in mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, defi= ne it in IETF. We can’t say we could not get to somewhere because the= re is no path. Build the path by ourselves. 

 

Xuesong

 

From:<= /span> Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org&g= t;; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha= ..net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forwa= rd.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which is the complete removal) or find an appropriate = and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. 

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari = Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net&= gt;, wrote:

High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With change= s if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing p= roposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We’<= /span>ve had vari= ants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we’ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that = industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusio= n) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, th= ere was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other req= uirements, and that there are several techniques that can provide the desir= ed characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the ser= vice provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that “there<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">’s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to= our work in this indirect way”..

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I’m fine remov= ing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics — such as that= we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere= that explains that this notion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pr= imary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docu= ment. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to impl= ement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with your neighbou= r’s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from this thread that peop= le are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything ab= out isolation. I’m fine with that, too.

Jari

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
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--_000_HE1PR07MB4156650423734880FBB37ADBF0540HE1PR07MB4156eurp_-- From nobody Wed Aug 26 07:13:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4583A14C2; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VKnaIoSWIuZI; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E17D23A14BF; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id w3so1757740ilh.5; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:13:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RXo8HsmTzqlrzsNls+4i43OFypLq7rJQuSqxn4sv3gU=; b=Ewn7duWdhcBMqmclldU/lu0Y+v+5HtVcY/b9yaXJ8YMBUBpHu++UhlU0f7iphVY5gs tAfAl8wtY1ou5jvG3PxLEordG05RrF+vI+A589GgUqA8EczlEBMjytFF8kk5Vwgrl1kg 3/qzOws/Fl5bZ0Ua3t06nfH4r+c428LgATqugtY/mwhX/zpmtc8+65iX330AB16ccKfQ vqTLDpMUF36ZmuguoYORrEb1tDMu1MlbxdHFOVENmtZtR0G7Y8PZLukLut3ard07EKXt cIcjQr8BPlWSipq3tKsfb43qgrIyVUmv4qVCacEF3NE4Zq4dIdziVbnBvOuhNgzyo95v w6kQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RXo8HsmTzqlrzsNls+4i43OFypLq7rJQuSqxn4sv3gU=; b=ZaPdeeI75WoXTpCAqBUZBDFr0EdfClG9Pi6d9Zy/9yv07+26OPdqm7XWY/EWMsBLqr ie/WhXmJ6SIwZZp7BB19lPOSZ7yu6SMXi92ESzAnenah4ZyfOB/0j485r7lzxIJBRTLo zU5zDHbixRLQeH1in/dEMOtaXCpoou7Eb4ZU8cCHYg7YA/15MobhsuI5AG84UjnYfzGC jOF9lcVMh6VS7lVp4TF5pfUOOs4FNCWVK+YQJb7jrZbckVF/Vp+RZNJtvgvVLRNLvURa XX0rt+1YtlCAehvd529iSGL7KzrnQlj8ZGu9KfMR7jP+Qp5gP0DUPSDb+qFzxJm0u0Hq hn0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531jAAE5fqf65teDBnDHP8383FtZb+/WjGeN1D1mbsajrpQqIQKf fZZ6PF4igzGo5AWFaSoAg23vu4QqrLkP7zbNKbw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6DjXtSr7vnXBVlVXyOdTCmX1zscaZi2R7i/tae+SB3PyUIDUYpKLSWLD3LiOjS6Hyg0RNgnJkz6rQhln0YEQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:de43:: with SMTP id e3mr12570413ilr.124.1598451185898; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:13:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:42:29 +0530 Message-ID: To: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Cc: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:13:08 -0000 Hi Authors, WG, Yes/support for WG adoption! I see value in these applicability documents. The draft-li-teas-hierarchy-ip-controllers does a similar job but for just IP controllers. Will the authors consider adding a section on PCE/PCEP? There is a rich history of using PCE/PCEP for inter-layer path computation and RFC 8637 briefly covers it. If needed I can help contribute text. I agree with the editor's note in section 5 and work is needed to get better integration. I also wonder what needs to be kept in the scope of this I-D (as a lot of text is useful but independent of POI). I am wondering if it should be moved to TE service mapping draft as I also see a lot of text repeated from there. Figure 2 needs to reconcile with draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang that does not differentiate between the ACTN and non-ACTN interfaces and list them together. Would be good to figure out if this difference helps with the description or hinders it. I got lost in section 5.5 but let's leave that for future discussion. Thanks! Dhruv On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 8:08 AM Vishnu Pavan Beeram wrote: > > All, > > This is start of a two week poll on making > draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends Aug 27th. > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Wed Aug 26 19:28:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5551C3A0C40 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpJF31tUsq2g for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B86113A0B8B for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A82D0B32A1B3D502C3CC; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 03:28:31 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 03:28:30 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:28:28 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:28:28 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: Daniele Ceccarelli , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Jari Arkko CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgADFS3CAACwCgIAACrIAgAFeIiA= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:28:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a9b7e19b7dac474a8a9355746fadf129huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 02:28:37 -0000 --_000_a9b7e19b7dac474a8a9355746fadf129huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Daniele You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily under the c= oncept of isolation. The first one disjointness is used mostly for protecti= on and the second one is a dedicated physical link/network for some service= . Isolation, in my understanding, describes the requirement that the traffi= c of service won't interfere with each other when they are transmitted toge= ther. These two cases may not be included. And, most importantly, these possible different understanding of this conce= pt makes it more necessary to be clearly defined in the document. Xuesong From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM To: Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) ; Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi, I see different interpretations of isolation and they make me think we don'= t need it, let me try to explain why. 1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a given traffic must= not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a link...that= 's what we commonly call "disjointness", right? We've been speaking about S= RLG disjointness for decades. 2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of interf= erence from any type of traffic in the network...that's a leased line, or a= dedicated network...we can't really speak about network slice there. If I got the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases co= vered. Am I missing any other requirement? BR Daniele From: Teas > On Behalf = Of Dongjie (Jimmy) Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56 To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) >; Jeff Tantsura >; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to = have input from the WG about these terms. For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifying t= he isolation requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, = such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, et= c., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develop= ed in IETF. Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a= transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to som= e specific isolation requirement. Best regards, Jie From: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM To: Jeff Tantsura >= ; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix +1 And one more supplementary comment about "Isolation is not a directly measu= rable SLO". Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation coul= d not described by number/value. But it doesn't mean that it is an abstract= concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE = link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good = discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don'= t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don't think the def= inition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is= different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define = it in IETF. We can't say we could not get to somewhere because there is no = path. Build the path by ourselves. Xuesong From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM To: TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, etc. We could pretend it doesn't exist (which is the complete removal) or find a= n appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if n= eeded. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposa= ls. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is. Design team discussions: We've had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we've had = for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indus= try uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) th= at it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there w= as our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is= the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several technique= s that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour = affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that "there's multiple ways to achieve th= is, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in this i= ndirect way".. I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective: My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I'm fine removing the appendix. If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics - such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a f= ootnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has = also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pri= mary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docum= ent. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to imple= ment the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be ke= pt despite what's happening with your neighbour's traffic. And leave it at = that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do tha= t, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I'm fine wi= th that, too. Jari _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas --_000_a9b7e19b7dac474a8a9355746fadf129huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Daniele

 

You have pointed out some technique that may not be n= ecessarily under the concept of isolation. The first one disjointness is used mostly for protection and the second one is a ded= icated physical link/network for some service. Isolation, in my understandi= ng, describes the requirement that the traffic of service won’t inter= fere with each other when they are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included.

And, most importantly, these possible different under= standing of this concept makes it more necessary to be clearly defined in the document.

 

Xuesong

 

From: = Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Gengxuesong (Geng X= uesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gma= il.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.= net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

Hi,

 <= /o:p>

I see dif= ferent interpretations of isolation and they make me think we don’t n= eed it, let me try to explain why.

&nbs= p;

  1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that = a given traffic must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a link…that’s what we commonly = call “disjointness”, right? We’ve been speaking about SRL= G disjointness for decades.
  2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of interferenc= e from any type of traffic in the network…that’s a leased line, or a dedicated network= 230;we can’t really speak about network slice there.

&nbs= p;

If I got = the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases covered.

Am I miss= ing any other requirement?

&nbs= p;

BR
Daniele 

&nbs= p;

From: = Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org= > On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)
Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net= >
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I also agree with the = proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to have input from the WG= about these terms.

 

For isolation, there w= as some discussion in design team about classifying the isolation requireme= nt into different dimensions in the context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, e= tc., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develo= ped in IETF.

 

Perhaps we could follo= w this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a transport slice point= of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to some specific isolation requirement.

 

Best regards,

Jie<= /p>

 

 

From: = Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <= teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

+1

And one more supplementary comment about “Isola= tion is not a directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/valu= e. But it doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not = be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or not.= It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because w= e don’t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I donR= 17;t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in= mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can’= t say we could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the pat= h by ourselves. 

 

Xuesong

 

From: = Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org= ] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org&g= t;; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha= ..net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

 

I find Pavan and Lou proposal r= easonable and a good/working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which = is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG de= scription as the document evolves. 

 

Cheers,

Jeff

= On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:

High-level bit: I would like to= see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Desig= n teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is en= tirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We’ve had variants of this discussion on = almost all of the calls we’ve had for the= last year. One one side there was our shared observation that industry use= s the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the othe= r side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement= perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are se= veral techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwid= th the service provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that “there’= s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry = relates to our work in this indirect way”= ..

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I’m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics — such as that we promise you n GB/s. The= n I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this no= tion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be repres= ented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhap= s also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary char= acteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with your neighbour’s traffic. And leave= it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to= do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine with that, too.

Jari

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Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:43:06 +0000 From: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Daniele Ceccarelli , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Jari Arkko CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0Wwe6vp5MnuEkiyQTo9PBhZOalB5J0AgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4kAgAAsvICAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbfAgIAAKocAgABFSwCAAKwCgIAACrIAgADYagCAAH6oQA== Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:43:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huawei.com; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I agree with Xuesong in the fact that we cannot leave the idea of isolation= open to interpretation. This is precisely the reason why we need to have a= definition on it in the context of transport slicing. Best regards Luis De: Teas En nombre de Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Enviado el: jueves, 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28 Para: Daniele Ceccarelli ; Dongjie (Jimmy)= ; Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram Asunto: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= - Appendix Hi Daniele You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily under the c= oncept of isolation. The first one disjointness is used mostly for protecti= on and the second one is a dedicated physical link/network for some service= . Isolation, in my understanding, describes the requirement that the traffi= c of service won't interfere with each other when they are transmitted toge= ther. These two cases may not be included. And, most importantly, these possible different understanding of this conce= pt makes it more necessary to be clearly defined in the document. Xuesong From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM To: Dongjie (Jimmy) >; Geng= xuesong (Geng Xuesong) >; Jeff Tantsura = >; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix Hi, I see different interpretations of isolation and they make me think we don'= t need it, let me try to explain why. 1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a given traffic must= not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a link...that= 's what we commonly call "disjointness", right? We've been speaking about S= RLG disjointness for decades. 2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of interf= erence from any type of traffic in the network...that's a leased line, or a= dedicated network...we can't really speak about network slice there. If I got the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases co= vered. Am I missing any other requirement? BR Daniele From: Teas > On Behalf = Of Dongjie (Jimmy) Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56 To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) >; Jeff Tantsura >; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to = have input from the WG about these terms. For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifying t= he isolation requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, = such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, et= c., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and develop= ed in IETF. Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a= transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to som= e specific isolation requirement. Best regards, Jie From: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM To: Jeff Tantsura >= ; TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix +1 And one more supplementary comment about "Isolation is not a directly measu= rable SLO". Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation coul= d not described by number/value. But it doesn't mean that it is an abstract= concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE = link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good = discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don'= t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don't think the def= inition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is= different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define = it in IETF. We can't say we could not get to somewhere because there is no = path. Build the path by ourselves. Xuesong From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM To: TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definitio= n - Appendix I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness. It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, etc. We could pretend it doesn't exist (which is the complete removal) or find a= n appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document evolves. Cheers, Jeff On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if n= eeded. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposa= ls. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is. Design team discussions: We've had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls we've had = for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indus= try uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) th= at it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there w= as our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is= the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several technique= s that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour = affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that "there's multiple ways to achieve th= is, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in this i= ndirect way"... I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-) Personal perspective: My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread. I'm fine removing the appendix. If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics - such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a f= ootnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has = also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the pri= mary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this docum= ent. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to imple= ment the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be ke= pt despite what's happening with your neighbour's traffic. And leave it at = that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to do tha= t, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I'm fine wi= th that, too. Jari _______________________________________________ Teas mailing list Teas@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci?n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusiv= o de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indic= ado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci?n, divulgaci?n y/o copia= sin autorizaci?n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci?n vigente= . Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique in= mediatamente por esta misma v?a y proceda a su destrucci?n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. 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Hi all,=

 <= /p>

I agree with Xuesong in the fact that= we cannot leave the idea of isolation open to interpretation. This is prec= isely the reason why we need to have a definition on it in the context of transport slicing.

 

Best regards

 

Luis

 

De: Teas <= ;teas-bounces@ietf.org> En nombre de Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Enviado el: jueves, 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28
Para: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; Do= ngjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@= gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piu= ha.net>
CC: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Asunto: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-def= inition - Appendix

 

Hi Daniele

 

You have pointed out some technique that = may not be necessarily under the concept of isolation. The first one disjointness is used mostly for protection and the second on= e is a dedicated physical link/network for some service. Isolation, in my u= nderstanding, describes the requirement that the traffic of service wonR= 17;t interfere with each other when they are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included.<= /span>

And, most importantly, these possible dif= ferent understanding of this concept makes it more necessary to be clearly defined in the document.

 

Xuesong

 = ;

From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM
To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.d= ong@huawei.com>; Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari A= rkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net&g= t;
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

&nbs= p;

Hi,

 

I see different interpretations of isolation and th= ey make me think we don’t need it, let me try to explain why.

 

  1. In some cases I = see as requirement the fact that a given traffic must not share a path with= another type of traffic, or a port, or a link…that’s what we commonly call “disjointness”, right? We’ve been = speaking about SRLG disjointness for decades.
  2. In some other cases the requirement is n= ot to have any type of interference from any type of traffic in the network= …that’s a leased line, or a dedicated network…we can’t really speak about network slice there.
    3. =

 

If I got the requirements right, I believe we alrea= dy have all the cases covered.

Am I missing any other requirement?

 

BR
Daniele 

 

From: Teas <t= eas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)
Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 14:56
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net= >
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

&nbs= p;

I also agr= ee with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to have input= from the WG about these terms.

 = ;

For isolat= ion, there was some discussion in design team about classifying the isolati= on requirement into different dimensions in the context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, fail= ure protection, etc., then each can be mapped to corresponding mechanisms d= efined and developed in IETF.

 = ;

Perhaps we= could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from a transport= slice point of view, and may find suitable terms to refer to some specific isolation requirement.

 = ;

Best regar= ds,

Jie

 = ;

 = ;

From: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <= teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

&nbs= p;

+1

And one more supplementary comment about = “Isolation is not a directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described b= y number/value. But it doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept th= at could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is iso= lated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusio= n yet just because we don’t even allow it to be existing in an WG doc= ument. And I don’t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. = Because isolation in mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF= . We can’t say we could not get to somewhere because there is no path= . Build the path by ourselves. 

 = ;

Xuesong

 = ;

From: Teas [mail= to:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org&g= t;; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha= ...net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

&nbs= p;

I find Pa= van and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which = is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG de= scription as the document evolves. 

&nbs= p;

Cheers, <= o:p>

Jeff=

On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:

High-leve= l bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Le= t the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposals. Autho= rity to do stuff is entirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We’ve had variants of this discussion on = almost all of the calls we’ve had for the= last year. One one side there was our shared observation that industry use= s the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the othe= r side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement= perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are se= veral techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwid= th the service provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that “there’= s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry = relates to our work in this indirect way”= ...

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I’m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics — such as that we promise you n GB/s. The= n I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this no= tion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be repres= ented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhap= s also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary char= acteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with your neighbour’s traffic. And leave= it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant to= do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine with that, too.

Jari

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Aug 2020 08:15:56 -0700 (PDT) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs References: <29904_1598531216_5F47A690_29904_16_1_7263a5d8-b9e0-4e33-9ea1-9cbab9ff0f0b@OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <2e8a3df4-9c7e-d4ab-1ac7-b539ad74fbae@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:15:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29904_1598531216_5F47A690_29904_16_1_7263a5d8-b9e0-4e33-9ea1-9cbab9ff0f0b@OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:15:59 -0000 RFC 7297 is an Independent Submission Informational RFC. Looking at it, building from it, and where agreed copying the text would seem sensible. Referencing it normatively would be a major problem, as it is not an IETF consensus document. Yours, Joel On 8/27/2020 8:26 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all, > > I support this effort. > > That’s said, I do think the document should leverage existing documents, > e.g., use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7297 to define the SLOs: > > 3 .  Connectivity Provisioning Profile (CPP) . . . . . . . . . . . 9 > > 3.1 .  Customer Nodes Map  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 > > 3.2 .  Scope . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 > > 3.3 .  QoS Guarantees  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 > > 3.4 .  Availability  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 > > 3.5 .  Capacity  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 > > 3.6 .  Conformance Traffic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 > > 3.7 .  Overall Traffic Guarantees  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 > > 3.8 .  Traffic Isolation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 > > 3.9 .  Flow Identification . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 > > 3.10 . Routing and Forwarding  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 > > 3.11 . Activation Means  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 > > 3.12 . Invocation Means  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 > > 3.13 . Notifications . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .16 > > Cheers, > > Med > > *De :*Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* Vishnu Pavan > Beeram > *Envoyé :* mercredi 19 août 2020 17:50 > *À :* TEAS WG > *Cc :* TEAS WG Chairs > *Objet :* [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition > > All, > > This is start of a *three* week poll on making > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group document. > Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not > support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the > document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd > like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. > > The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). > > Thanks, > Pavan and Lou > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Thu Aug 27 08:49:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD413A0F00; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J2wPse38_w53; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D5333A0F7F; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id b3so3692268qtg.13; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=jTkQPMC22cw3sAR+zbhfohnRG3uLk1nW5Sh5lcc3Sfw=; b=h1R1VmQJ1KgR6PR1t3rtdUdlew41A1k8G5XgrmPFGYT78h8n6yYi8GJSuH+rGhgqMQ apFP6+g/8wirVgTaOKMoWrliRnCPiTayuJkJ2474C9D0XANdeLcchnkQwTR+ffKeM8N9 GpgB7GE9Pu0HBanmojM/GAJd1OetZRE0JqWrwekg9b/LyEdLM08AI9LWb8sGuCebExIY Bg2Ao8w+LdUGd2h5ckvvUViIlxlblbFsRIr3N8xleBpfJseU7vfW0rZAwBtRuVh92kNr whHD5Ynytle9ZuLekxA8nOrwygd19s8CSZvEImZ1ND4zHHOJuxoXFSaT3Tmqp18epaJa IEnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=jTkQPMC22cw3sAR+zbhfohnRG3uLk1nW5Sh5lcc3Sfw=; b=K/oOgH7ejTpTKygmN8jw3YtoMvYvhrJe92ib4/zQQ76ZAcYq9TdA37jFX3Y4H8Q4q0 POpzhtUJmOSzE+/oZZuhrKMRZSmylID1cChiU5XvPLhoKthk/StXObsKP68M9jRIsEy1 O2omdlKUVvmUGmcmbCcKrlNoJQVbusWLSc4xqm9ck/NzgXdBg8Hiv13vNsQrHl1YySeN DKAAG5tIA+ueSICU2V1GYFIZwLeaHsP5ZeWcaJLmzeZ1NV2uSU2SksKnEMAXeqhazPX8 dkv64P+gUXe6D4g9fENbeXIKa4c22a1GhvSM4iZ/jL9sxkevd/uq4Ej7aZoeTU5Bcbur /ieQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530a7GTbiVQxS0coNpSWXrDnnFoUsgAOcyhyC+VZ/TDYAav1Aqvy u1I9dblu92J1ryyK58VWzmc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKHtsZAKfJFw+hrl+XUsSBSomlNRI9XSWVceSLeRX57xLxW2nlgk9XL3FS/jKXdRrR7QzFsg== X-Received: by 2002:aed:35f0:: with SMTP id d45mr10462431qte.184.1598543349232; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:85:4680:3329:944a:5c1b:1c90:bc44? ([2601:85:4680:3329:944a:5c1b:1c90:bc44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u7sm2131539qkm.20.2020.08.27.08.49.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Aug 2020 08:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Eric Gray In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:49:07 -0400 Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG Chairs , TEAS WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <24DA3140-93D5-4DD9-A90A-D039809497B9@gmail.com> References: To: Dhruv Dhody X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption poll - draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:49:12 -0000 Yes/support > On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:12 AM, Dhruv Dhody wrote: > > Hi Authors, WG, > > Yes/support for WG adoption! > > I see value in these applicability documents. The > draft-li-teas-hierarchy-ip-controllers does a similar job but for just > IP controllers. > > Will the authors consider adding a section on PCE/PCEP? There is a > rich history of using PCE/PCEP for inter-layer path computation and > RFC 8637 briefly covers it. If needed I can help contribute text. > > I agree with the editor's note in section 5 and work is needed to get > better integration. I also wonder what needs to be kept in the scope > of this I-D (as a lot of text is useful but independent of POI). I am > wondering if it should be moved to TE service mapping draft as I also > see a lot of text repeated from there. > > Figure 2 needs to reconcile with draft-ietf-teas-actn-yang that does > not differentiate between the ACTN and non-ACTN interfaces and list > them together. Would be good to figure out if this difference helps > with the description or hinders it. > > I got lost in section 5.5 but let's leave that for future discussion. > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 8:08 AM Vishnu Pavan Beeram > wrote: >> >> All, >> >> This is start of a two week poll on making >> draft-peru-teas-actn-poi-applicability-05 a TEAS working group document. >> Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not >> support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the >> document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd >> like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. >> >> The poll ends Aug 27th. >> >> Thanks, >> Pavan and Lou >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas From nobody Thu Aug 27 13:21:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E3A3A12A3; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IkyEviBWiF5; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com (mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B03B13A129D; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qv1-xf2c.google.com with SMTP id r19so3294906qvw.11; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:20:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=dQvnw/vQzyGmaZOikYy12gBJM99pcnQHW6WDIAXrXxQ=; b=qBhNnSofCvSHtfS24WhhXZ/0MQEPUhNeg2kne8ftgc9OEigGYWn1iPkjXKqs6dux64 PLCFGbHPc6x4P7Xb5QYwX80jms2ZQKHouKqHh2+NWmJTS3/X6hf9VLTSj1iW1cDolTwb JS1o3DjuzP27PKhcdyzqarqx4UVONqpqGH1TikPFY9oTKPxnZGTdR8V6Svliv4tIHV41 mL7XvOrYQUS32Eh8xQUQt0lrqJg2uliabwMqN4grbAa4p5egnFg2l2Iyz8Napx0skuTo Z2QB53H77l9BbJuNsiUNzx2+AYvyVZgmTuNfuQFMq/wkkdJj3LI0bxdQoS6KnOipR/by 4wFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=dQvnw/vQzyGmaZOikYy12gBJM99pcnQHW6WDIAXrXxQ=; b=YOtfjrBXtg3ap7zoi1K1wwwg+X6kvKltjklX/xIFKJJZW+7dVYiUoVV6OpqTnr77tt CTwzvXtduDjtUXjaMZgGryC9U5ej6kGdEHKRsWACkt3MgAJVLQeecRw7/KIofZHSew5c roVSlmfjlg54keOwxJwUrH1shdamUIy/JqjltKHRtP+Y04Vd9dSmTIDsncNs2/2Gxf5T X/qsz9x3kNo2u1QHA8DlXpnCdawbC9JenTmkbpThdTE+oJqmob22+eibyAEcTSM2Vsm9 sxXTFvapV82ZJ1zHjjlP/dOyDORYpK1XTsD7WuL/HHDuxuRx1cK9w9qbYITIDJzuBdtY NArg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532mg0u98Mg56rfSCJRdLfX8OcGI5HHB6egP7qcwzMIAZ3wlPDqX eVCMfmOc0We5ZpwU4sY46TyOgTJhu14T5UoN X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyO3SyuRrwAwspplJFsQL7DYRIRoH8k0q00Tv5nc6YNGH6obeCprqjaYmWCqnO6Q3NTI12pEg== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f607:: with SMTP id r7mr20939694qvm.219.1598559658377; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:85:4680:3329:944a:5c1b:1c90:bc44? ([2601:85:4680:3329:944a:5c1b:1c90:bc44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p33sm2895904qtp.49.2020.08.27.13.20.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:20:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Eric Gray Message-Id: <1BCC788D-A7AC-4B77-916A-DC3416A7BC96@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C5D3D50C-61ED-4BF5-906E-94A748B30E7A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:20:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jari Arkko To: TEAS WG , TEAS WG Chairs References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 20:21:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C5D3D50C-61ED-4BF5-906E-94A748B30E7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 With the changes suggested by the WG chairs, regarding removal of the = appendix and adding placeholder text to the draft, = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition is even more ready for = adoption than it was when presented at IETF 108. I support the adoption of this draft. I also realize that there is work cut out for the working group before = this draft should be considered finished, and I see a lot of the = discussion going on in the adoption thread as being somewhat ahead of = its time - because the draft should be adopted as suggested by the WG = Chairs - before we delve into the actual content and details. As a co-editor of the Framework draft, I believe there are some simple = ways to polish both drafts further along the lines of suggestions made = by many people in this thread - but that is a discussion for after we = decide to adopt the drafts. Some of that discussion has already started - in background mode, as = well as in this thread - but much of it should wait until we can make = appropriate suggestions to the WG and gain some high degree of consensus = on what to actually do. =E2=80=94 Eric --Apple-Mail=_C5D3D50C-61ED-4BF5-906E-94A748B30E7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 With = the changes suggested by the WG chairs, regarding removal of the = appendix and adding placeholder text to the = draft, draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition is even more = ready for adoption than it was when presented at IETF 108.

I support the adoption = of this draft.

I= also realize that there is work cut out for the working group before = this draft should be considered finished, and I see a lot of the = discussion going on in the adoption thread as being somewhat ahead of = its time - because the draft should be adopted as suggested by the WG = Chairs - before we delve into the actual = content and details.

As a co-editor of the Framework draft, I believe there are = some simple ways to polish both drafts further along the lines of = suggestions made by many people in this thread - but that is a = discussion for after we decide to adopt the = drafts.

Some of that discussion has already started - in background = mode, as well as in this thread - but much of it should wait until we = can make appropriate suggestions to the WG and gain some high degree of = consensus on what to actually do.

=E2=80=94
Eric



= --Apple-Mail=_C5D3D50C-61ED-4BF5-906E-94A748B30E7A-- From nobody Thu Aug 27 23:15:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10643A1594; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 23:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fI32Rp2fGwcH; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 23:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED5323A0D23; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 23:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.71]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4Bd8TS29gjz60Q2; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 08:15:08 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1598595308; bh=n42HJIsT+4Q2cq1753uwNTnicOQick+HveiPNXPZo/k=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=FJ7hxc8KG0Fz2eMh168gKOrU8xHpKgUxTATJrsOtGqLYC0TGDz05BBmVk9f9Nq1lK r6Ya5TKb2lcwbLfzhKDWIR5sH1hNq1D0L3JkAfGY12Tb4DaYUHfPuZOEvOvdoxttFg 0O7AL0ISAehIP8AHqbCgg6hbtoeAv4dzY9cIoflGFHvLLIYjUtlcFXdCvE48iV/2Pl 05PfjL2hTGn27SLvi+QrRQPyZ9whcos3z4DZw5+of62/Ak+r098Bqc2dUaWHJOhrnO 6a/ChlOY625FI+Q5djSXp/oFmmv1otB3/hqlqyzFxJpk7DAAZ9aNBwZyI+T06LY8j/ FHowCqfRrl+2Q== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.20]) by opfednr07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4Bd8TS1QYLzFpWX; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 08:15:08 +0200 (CEST) From: To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Vishnu Pavan Beeram , TEAS WG CC: TEAS WG Chairs Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition Thread-Index: AQHWfIT4DeeaPGA0H0a0CmDVOkAgWalNC47w Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 06:15:07 +0000 Message-ID: <25195_1598595308_5F48A0EC_25195_489_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330315264DB@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <29904_1598531216_5F47A690_29904_16_1_7263a5d8-b9e0-4e33-9ea1-9cbab9ff0f0b@OPEXCAUBM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2e8a3df4-9c7e-d4ab-1ac7-b539ad74fbae@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <2e8a3df4-9c7e-d4ab-1ac7-b539ad74fbae@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list 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(Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5573A0D22; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MU3rHnrAnVl7; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta8.iomartmail.com (mta8.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.158]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6A7C3A0D1C; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (vs3.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.124]) by mta8.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07SMQfIm026821; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:26:41 +0100 Received: from vs3.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712C12203A; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:26:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs3.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C0FB22032; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:26:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.51.134.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07SMQeqT009670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:26:40 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: Cc: "'TEAS WG Chairs'" Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:26:41 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AdZ9h3Zl6le4l7CpS4GedKhoPGFAhg== X-Originating-IP: 84.51.134.114 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25632.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--11.248-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--11.248-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25632.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--11.248300-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 6HmIcPYEgbpUyNpSXHqEp7IGMNfiwa5NpHTu027282Mm6oA4NJmldsc/ +8UeRzDJtCbwpbprczJDqKf7SXL3ngCkhDVfYbRL8sc9oYKBve32+Qpb93PkPQrkj7klVufuvIM Y50t8rarD8e0SwY8zfOa2jSg14puSDFY5nZqMREP9NzaKrjkKeylayzmQ9QV0CPypGboRQ0j0Bw RY9hFTLe4SW0N6QG4Gldf4j4+yMtOWY/h1I6tB9kr0JusapgjyYCdLkMLwLkM0+JzRhxWA6/6RO KSr3u5/shwFaQXf9VJL/vfBXHh6LKuK6f8YXGKx141MZ0dY1L+zy3IeH3LNTrEe96bzLpOvPaP8 3yYyCuSUvHI2qgxXq5GaMsppg92xMsFLDxbgfaVpTt57XuqMc+DTYjejIZTwT0IkL8xYhnjccF+ vY4fYYWJXtXLTI0rs4zhYRd+9uuEDS2E+kBrt7FFSD47VOxuS8vvksslXuLcrhioeAJKilVVHiS qIjoGBZF6p3FRwyMZhfQrK8VymzUek7F52hjHWa0FTUMKjrms6En2bnefhoLNTRH7kNsNsT+kgG UpzwMhYSsobQzVh3JGTpe1iiCJqtD9qpBlNF8pTptoDfp6JrMRB0bsfrpPIfiAqrjYtFiTVYObx +uKNqXbnLUfbX//tadC5V6wEIbjw+/vfNoM8vX7cGd19dSFd X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 22:26:46 -0000 Hi TEAS, As the debate over adoption of draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition raging (I plan to pitch in on that soon), I wanted to remind the working group about draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and ask the chairs if they will consider that for adoption alongside the output of the Slicing Design Team. As you'll all be aware, ACTN is a key technology developed by this working group that can be used for managing TE networks utilising many of the YANG models developed in TEAS and elsewhere in the IETF. It closely follows SDN architectures to provide a way for operators to provide services (and in particular virtual network services) over their transport networks. Enhanced VPNs (VPN+, also TEAS work) is about how basic VPN services can be enhanced through the addition of service delivery objectives to represent a service that turns out to look very much like network slicing. It shouldn't be a surprise that ACTN is an appropriate tool for delivering enhanced VPNs since they are a virtual network service. What draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing does is discuss the applicability of ACTN to delivering network slicing services over TE networks. It explains how you would build a slice, and it cross-references the YANG models (in various states of development) that could provide the information needed at the different interfaces. While developing draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing we obviously needed to discuss terms and functions that are essential to an understanding of network slicing. Some of these were borrowed from the enhanced VPN work, which had previously borrowed them from an early version of this draft (what comes around, goes around). It was not our intention to compete with the Design Team work, but we needed this material in our document and we wrote a lot of it way back in 2017 when we started the draft (somewhat before the Design Team was formed). There has been some debate about whether draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing is too limited because it can only deliver slicing services over TE networks. That is a fine question, but there is a strong argument that the act of slicing a network is only possible through TE means whether those are implemented within the network or in a centralised system. We might also ask whether TEAS is able to address non-TE networks within its current charter. If it turns out that there is WG preference for the terminology and language used in the Design Team's documents then we would work out how to modify draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. If, on the other hand, the WG prefers the way we have expressed things then we would be please to see that material find its way into a working group document. There would be two ways to achieve that: 1. Leave it in draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and adopt that draft 2. Modify the Design Team draft and reference it from draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing Looking forward to your thoughts on this. Best, Adrian From nobody Fri Aug 28 15:57:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764EA3A0D75; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MsvSLieP2158; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta6.iomartmail.com (mta6.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.156]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B27D3A0D7A; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07SMunUZ031269; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:56:49 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E6522044; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:56:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F8D322042; Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:56:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.51.134.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07SMummo011600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:56:48 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Vishnu Pavan Beeram'" , "'TEAS WG'" Cc: "'TEAS WG Chairs'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 23:56:41 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05ba01d67d8e$83617a80$8a246f80$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05BB_01D67D96.E5271B00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQJFgDPaxYcvrtKyiSzqHlBkkBJ8kqhwGyMA X-Originating-IP: 84.51.134.114 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25632.003 X-TM-AS-Result: No--16.312-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--16.312-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25632.003 X-TMASE-Result: 10--16.312000-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFrxIbpQ8BhdbHZfNnBVXJYniFB88PweKrXnUD8POrkddooq qJHJHX2WIE+yrJoXHyV98uTk7zcFe1H+T48/HBwjucWz1xJfHWaPSNdj1JMyAZNyfiOLWydOxUD TxL3vuSBqiJeghlwGGUfXke00bBz6/u0euujb/zERgc884o1LVapW8MqA90G14ZmC0TPZtohpaZ rmIAHLOHW/djWorYrJ7u/TlrbPllFs/7vJ3zbsJGzBijri5+RVF9s8UTYYetVV5D/AXr/H3NAYW Uo4HSIkqjtz90j0VPnIif6xwSA0igAYypzZlhFp9FQh3flUIh5L9x4FCuBLUQ/vnJWZIdGASD2g gSXn5eAdjaiO/zggUi2QD7fdlz93KXFwpy84b0o8TeSGZW8c7mW7wAkGQ80wmbdPE3zcujge4Q9 rmjgCD04qaSs6OmJalww8GuFrcTsn4llhB/GgfImR/mpCAiHdE3Ba/Z0GuaSbkEl1SMP4VZakb9 Cst1glmkAOgxjWpisdsDDkKdu5NErYfGvC1HVreJ2BzwQDOOgKF0jiwuWuOIVquVYFwXAmChcbH TwAl8LhQ8WVHvZupah0K7+2RkRF0u6qOSEgKL78Jrg+3ve3W6dlL9piCOvONPic0YcVgOsjJxwp T9SCmwuDvWf2RSAGmQTlFR/45lQhB8v9fiEUSMLRNemq17EirVkZQpHRiCwItQd56gn7IViqAyk 7LkbkI22wyx0Nae1ATzeCdAKeQK/V8/cgjzjSqa6SJk58+LYpWss5kPUFdMlgi/vLS2726ZhZJf DWK58RsHN+CG+OBhHlKZ0KtAaIR1vveBQPCReeAiCmPx4NwGmRqNBHmBve1B0Hk1Q1KyLr8uVzX avvgwaIkv313qJpOwBXM346/+xz21XwgPGHHrEScRQIMcwU9m3sV1ZD/owkMf0b/qVX3J3cqzAt 75rF X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 22:57:04 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05BB_01D67D96.E5271B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, =20 I spent a good chunk of time yesterday and today catching up on the = threads about this document. I believe there are several important = things to say: =20 1. Many thanks are due to the Design Team which I know has invested a = lot of time and thought into working on their small set of documents. = Such effort should not go unrecognised. =20 2. Several comments have referred to the consensus that the Design Team = reached on the content of the document. It's good that the DT was able = to reach consensus - I haven't gone back to determine whether it was = rough and how it was measured, and that doesn't matter if they agree it = was reached. However, the consensus, of itself is only informational as = we consider the document and doesn't carry weight against arguments put = forward in this discussion (especially by people who were not active = participants in the DT). Let's hear all voices and opinions and not = squash them with the DT's collective view. =20 3. I am puzzled by the debate about what to do with text that might be = removed from this document. We are debating adopting this draft and = don't (at this stage) have control over what goes in other DT documents = (or any other non-WG document). If the WG decides that text does not = belong in this document, then that is all we decided and people are free = to place that text elsewhere: in some other non-WG draft if their = co-authors agree, or in a new draft of their own. So let's debate what = text we want in *this* document on its own merits. =20 4. The discussion of "isolation" seems to get significantly hung up on = the difference between "isolation as part of a service objective" and = "isolation as a delivery mechanism". Service objectives are not = necessarily directly or easily observable by a client. For example, you = might ask your service provider to guarantee that your traffic is not = routed via , but when packets = are tunnelled and the provider doesn't give you good access to their = internal diagnostic traces, it can be less than simple to verify that = they are meeting this objective. Thus, absolute requests for isolation = are probably meaningless at the service interface and in some network = technologies they cannot really be delivered, anyway. What is more = important is that we deconstruct "isolation" into the concepts that the = client does actually care about: no misdelivery, no observation of = traffic by another client, no interference on traffic quality/delivery = owing to the activity of other clients. In = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing we tried to tease out these = distinctions and believed that the way in which these service features = might be delivered are an entirely different matter - if someone wants = to write a document called "Delivering Service Isolation Using SRv6" = then I think that would be a fine place to discuss such issues. =20 5. Document review and opinion on adoption. That's next on my list = =F0=9F=98=8A =20 Best, Adrian =20 From: Teas On Behalf Of Vishnu Pavan Beeram Sent: 19 August 2020 16:50 To: TEAS WG Cc: TEAS WG Chairs Subject: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition =20 All, This is start of a *three* week poll on making draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working group = document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends September 9th (extra week to account for vacation season). Thanks, Pavan and Lou ------=_NextPart_000_05BB_01D67D96.E5271B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

I = spent a good chunk of time yesterday and today catching up on the = threads about this document. I believe there are several important = things to say:

 

1. = Many thanks are due to the Design Team which I know has invested a lot = of time and thought into working on their small set of documents. Such = effort should not go unrecognised.

 

2. = Several comments have referred to the consensus that the Design Team = reached on the content of the document. It's good that the DT was able = to reach consensus - I haven't gone back to determine whether it was = rough and how it was measured, and that doesn't matter if they agree it = was reached. However, the consensus, of itself is only informational as = we consider the document and doesn't carry weight against arguments put = forward in this discussion (especially by people who were not active = participants in the DT). Let's hear all voices and opinions and not = squash them with the DT's collective view.

 

3. I = am puzzled by the debate about what to do with text that might be = removed from this document. We are debating adopting this draft and = don't (at this stage) have control over what goes in other DT documents = (or any other non-WG document). If the WG decides that text does not = belong in this document, then that is all we decided and people are free = to place that text elsewhere: in some other non-WG draft if their = co-authors agree, or in a new draft of their own. So let's debate what = text we want in *this* document on its own merits.

 

4. The = discussion of "isolation" seems to get significantly hung up = on the difference between "isolation as part of a service = objective" and "isolation as a delivery mechanism". = Service objectives are not necessarily directly or easily observable by = a client. For example, you might ask your service provider to guarantee = that your traffic is not routed via <insert name of country you don't = trust>, but when packets are tunnelled and the provider doesn't give = you good access to their internal diagnostic traces, it can be less than = simple to verify that they are meeting this objective. Thus, absolute = requests for isolation are probably meaningless at the service interface = and in some network technologies they cannot really be delivered, = anyway. What is more important is that we deconstruct = "isolation" into the concepts that the client does actually = care about: no misdelivery, no observation of traffic by another client, = no interference on traffic quality/delivery owing to the activity of = other clients. In draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing we tried to = tease out these distinctions and believed that the way in which these = service features might be delivered are an entirely different matter - = if someone wants to write a document called "Delivering Service = Isolation Using SRv6" then I think that would be a fine place to = discuss such issues.

 

5. = Document review and opinion on adoption. That's next on my list 😊

 

Best,

Adrian

 

From: Teas = <teas-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Vishnu Pavan = Beeram
Sent: 19 August 2020 16:50
To: TEAS WG = <teas@ietf.org>
Cc: TEAS WG Chairs = <teas-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [Teas] WG adoption - = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition

 

All,

This is start of a *three* week poll on = making
draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition-03 a TEAS working = group document.
Please send email to the list indicating = "yes/support" or "no/do not
support". If = indicating no, please state your reservations with the
document. If = yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd
like to see = addressed once the document is a WG document.

The poll ends = September 9th (extra week to account for vacation = season).

Thanks,
Pavan and = Lou

------=_NextPart_000_05BB_01D67D96.E5271B00-- From nobody Sat Aug 29 11:55:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FED83A0F1A for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:55:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06MjUkYfkSR6 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy10-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F503A0F13 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw11.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.11]) by gproxy10.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07571404ED for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:55:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id C60okuJjCpSV4C60okIuWx; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:55:38 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=OqxhNR3t c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=OzQV7XzE9u3UUz2YSKgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=vETNexo534p9yydubNRmyYqO7gtAVuMhHgx2873K+WU=; b=0eQWbwWyskmDQjTDFZUuPk6CGh 4eza0RDkjqxNIZuG+XQMXJYoIf4oxnMpstgbuoRIECQsUaBE+5xOu+pjS+cuV75yg91I2YmOLEADQ vkonrkt5GfvAEYPNYcplonv3c; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=36627 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kC60o-003Gjs-Jn; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:55:38 -0600 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, teas@ietf.org Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' References: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:55:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1kC60o-003Gjs-Jn X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:36627 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 13 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:55:42 -0000 Hi Adrian, On 8/28/2020 6:26 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > ... > > Looking forward to your thoughts on this.     As we (chairs) mentioned to you off-list, before we can talk about adoption of this document we still have the issue of working through the discussion at the last meeting.  Specifically the text that was removed from the WG document ( draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn) that is largely present in this document.  My question is: assuming the text in is restored from draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn-05, are there one or more suitable existing (or candidate) WG documents that could be a home for the remaining valuable text that is currently in applicability-actn-slicing document? -- after all how many information documents do we really need on this topic.... I think this is a question not only for you and your coauthors, but also for the WG as a whole. Cheers, Lou > Best, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Sat Aug 29 13:10:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF763A097A for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z79bg1A8_krp for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x92e.google.com (mail-ua1-x92e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE1D63A0977 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x92e.google.com with SMTP id r13so820019uah.10 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:10:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OOXNY4ACiD5mbVltzxzy3mkgw34bjyRRv1tkc05tApk=; b=MaRuU4d0Y5cCBbf/Oo7SsCjhYY3NWBit5NgD8e1hvwM/JB1LWnYwuXBYHJIMhQYpAT aU5NrBp5fkO4fsIs/CYebwQ53LXtqdd8/bu41+Im4DSAo+Cw9WAVbS/geQhEwGNeLyOG 9gJUu9bAuf7V8knumHkFZP0cwc2E1wUF86sF+nckGAhOJjeXV8G1oo8ruKcH3qAsitBP oJbhvAP8WVjImL7EVcVP2l4b9JyW0kb3wwg4NLdsbLrn9h4xO8fFpJS3vnXNZbTgbVuK pKYpz8RF1gvMC/fPyKsMQh9b6pCun07ojkxxAce5Dh9DLyLvC9FuLyvV6oSyr4m6u5fl CYWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OOXNY4ACiD5mbVltzxzy3mkgw34bjyRRv1tkc05tApk=; b=UOtdwPQ8SShGGaO9mdlzNT5a4Qg5OkFJXeylc+Ad63fTweCdIMFzKjc88zwk5k2PJW j+d8DgYzJnh032GaFApEUa8jvEhhAlRv5USE/bPDhNaVlcfwo/BXCGV3uztgZkh8kHB9 MAJK1pnldgMbssO3PGQBP6Z9rwza8H61OPtp5LBjAcgs/qHd2VzuV2yNNOCJvjrgMZeF tiLOhlfRgkOf/nc5AtsazbkHgeoCy+EWbBumZy8OmID77aOHDOy+GY4yqQ918PIkfmgr ttgsB3UkxefHx6oofjvjvNxyRkjXDdwXy0SZis96xn0+FC8nTYcwuPgyuGEuxSIZUdnT /S7A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZSIn1aKZsLrxjHQD80z8Vt8PDn1i6Jf+PRSJIenbSRqDqci/O cnf3GLUIOXz2OrlnR2Mf+4UsbA16ZVTidnS+CY8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz12zYoZWGpxZAx+qrHzQsXgElin0y6YMPJJS6Nkn9P8Q5iroC3JxxWscMmXxUUcqi8Psi4UT1yqZhIb/sL8Sw= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:3243:: with SMTP id r3mr2392544uan.106.1598731800642; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:09:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Jari Arkko , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001186f905ae09c137" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 20:10:05 -0000 --0000000000001186f905ae09c137 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All I have been following along on the =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D context deba= te and I agree with Xuesong and Luis that I think it is important to define the concept of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D as it pertains to transport slice. I agree with Adrian=E2=80=99s comment on transport slice and that the conce= pt of isolation as a service measurable from a customer point of view and what they have access to as far as diagnostics as well as delivery isolation which is an operators point of view of the slice and how transport had been =E2=80=9Csliced=E2=80=9D so to speak t create physical or logical isolation= . From a isolation as a service perspective it does not have to be 100% measurable by the customer as the customer would not have visibility into the provider network. Does not mean that isolation as a service can not still be provided by operators at a higher cost to customers. There maybe a way to provide some transparency to customers so they can see what they are paying for. In basic terms =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D I agree is important to be defin= ed as isolation has many many different meaning and it could mean one thing to an operator delivering the service and another thing for a customer paying for a higher tier Enhanced VPN service and so want to understand what they are getting as far as SLA and how it can be proven and measured from a customer perspective. The reason as well why isolation is critical abstraction layer from a TEAS traffic steering perspective and why it come up is that from a service delivery perspective you can steer traffic onto a dedicated path that are not shard resources and maybe can have =E2=80=9Cdegrees of isolation=E2=80= =9D as well in terms of marketing a higher tier SLA to provide that degree of path isolation by limiting the customers that traverse a traffic engineered path. Also when you provisioning a higher tier Enhanced VPN and you have VPN A and VPN B and you provision for path diversity similarly to OTN 100G P2P wave circuit provisioning process. Their maybe customer parameters as far as =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D and cost for the tiers of isolation that= the operators wants to sell to customers. So complete path isolation meaning dedicated or a degree of isolation meaning logical isolation and each tier has a different price point. Some of this verbiage is already in the appendix and may just need some tweaking but I do agree it is an important to keep as part of the definition. Kind Regards Gyan On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 6:43 AM LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO < luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I agree with Xuesong in the fact that we cannot leave the idea of > isolation open to interpretation. This is precisely the reason why we nee= d > to have a definition > > on it in the context of transport slicing. > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > Luis > > > > > > > > > > *De:* Teas > > *En nombre de *Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > > *Enviado el:* jueves, 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28 > > > *Para:* Daniele Ceccarelli ; Dongjie > (Jimmy) ; Jeff Tantsura ; > TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko > > > *CC:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > *Asunto:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > > > > > > > Hi Daniele > > > > > > You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily under the > concept of isolation. > > The first one disjointness is used mostly for protection and the second > one is a dedicated physical link/network for some service. Isolation, in = my > understanding, describes the requirement that the traffic of service won= =E2=80=99t > interfere with each other when they > > are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included. > > > And, most importantly, these possible different understanding of this > concept makes it more > > necessary to be clearly defined in the document. > > > > > > Xuesong > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com > ] > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM > > > *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < > gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura ; > > TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko > > > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > *Subject:* RE: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I see different interpretations of isolation and they make me think we > don=E2=80=99t need it, let me try to explain why. > > > > > > > > > 1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a given traffic > must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a > link=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s > > what we commonly call =E2=80=9Cdisjointness=E2=80=9D, right? We=E2=80= =99ve been speaking about > SRLG disjointness for decades. > 2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of > interference from any type of traffic in the network=E2=80=A6that=E2= =80=99s a leased line, > or a dedicated network=E2=80=A6we > > can=E2=80=99t really speak about network slice there. > > > > > > > If I got the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases > covered. > > > Am I missing any other requirement? > > > > > > BR > > > Daniele > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Teas > > *On Behalf Of *Dongjie (Jimmy) > > > *Sent:* den 26 augusti 2020 14:56 > > > *To:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) ; Jeff Tantsura = < > jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG ; Jari > > Arkko > > > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > > > > > > > I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important t= o > have input from the WG about these terms. > > > > > > > For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifying > the isolation requirement into different dimensions in the > > context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, > failure protection, etc., then each can be mapped to corresponding > mechanisms defined and developed in IETF. > > > > > > > Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation from > a transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms > > to refer to some specific isolation requirement. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Jie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM > > > *To:* Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; > Jari Arkko > > > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > *Subject:* RE: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not a dire= ctly > measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe > > here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described > by number/value. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract conce= pt that > could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is > isolated or not. It could be clarified by > > some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no > conclusion yet just because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existing= in an WG > document. And I don=E2=80=99t think the definition of other SDOs really m= atter. > Because isolation in mobile network is different > > from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in > IETF.. We can=E2=80=99t say we could not get to somewhere because there i= s no > path.. Build the path by ourselves. > > > > > > > Xuesong > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org ] > > *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM > > > *To:* TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko > > > > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. > > > While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally > binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physica= l > SRLG or disjointness. > > > It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. > > > There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical > separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, > etc. > > > > > > We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal)= or find > an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document > evolves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , wrote= : > > > > > High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if > needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing > proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the > > WG now. > > > > > > When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide > both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective o= n > this. > > > > > > Design team discussions: > > > > > > We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls = we=E2=80=99ve > had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that > industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared > > conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the > other side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a > requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that > there are several techniques that can provide > > the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the > bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. > > > > > > The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that th= e > top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves= . > The appendix only attempts to say that > > =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, t= his term in the > industry relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.... > > > > > > I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. > Delete and move on, no biggie :-) > > > > > > Personal perspective: > > > > > > My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented > matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > > > > > > I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. > > > > > > If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary > characteristics > > =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a footno= te or > appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has also been > discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the primary > characteristics, > > and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could > perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the > primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept > despite what=E2=80=99s happening > > with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I unders= tand > from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be > reluctant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, > > too. > > > > > > Jari > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teas mailing list > > > Teas@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, > puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso > exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el > destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la > > lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3= =B3n puede estar > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m= ensaje > por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma > v=C3=ADa y proceda a su destrucci=C3=B3n. > > > > > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or > entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If > you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please > immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communication > in error and then delete it. > > > > > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3= =A1rio, > pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 pa= ra uso exclusivo > da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=C3=A1rio > indicado, fica notificado de que a > > leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem a= utoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar > proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mens= agem por > erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --0000000000001186f905ae09c137 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All

I have been following along on the =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80= =9D context debate and I agree with Xuesong and Luis that I think it is imp= ortant to define the concept of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D as it pertains = to transport slice.

I ag= ree with Adrian=E2=80=99s comment on transport slice and that the concept o= f isolation as a service measurable from a customer point of view and what = they have access to as far as diagnostics as well as delivery isolation whi= ch is an operators point of view of the slice and how transport had been = =E2=80=9Csliced=E2=80=9D so to speak t create physical or logical isolation= .=C2=A0 From a isolation as a service perspective it does not have to be 10= 0% measurable by the customer as the customer would not have visibility int= o the provider network. Does not mean that isolation as a service can not s= till be provided by operators at a higher cost to customers.=C2=A0 There ma= ybe a way to provide some transparency to customers so they can see what th= ey are paying for.

In ba= sic terms =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D I agree is important to be defined as= isolation has many many different meaning and it could mean one thing to a= n operator delivering the service and another thing for a customer paying f= or a higher tier Enhanced VPN service and so want to understand what they a= re getting as far as SLA and how it can be proven and measured from a custo= mer perspective.

The rea= son as well why isolation is critical abstraction layer from a TEAS traffic= steering perspective and why it come up is that from a service delivery pe= rspective you can steer traffic onto a dedicated path that are not shard re= sources and maybe can have =E2=80=9Cdegrees of isolation=E2=80=9D as well i= n terms of marketing a higher tier SLA to provide that degree of path isola= tion by limiting the customers that traverse a traffic engineered path. =C2= =A0 Also when you provisioning a higher tier Enhanced VPN and you have VPN = A and VPN B and you provision for path diversity similarly to OTN 100G P2P = wave circuit provisioning process.=C2=A0 Their maybe customer parameters as= far as =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D and cost for the tiers of isolation tha= t the operators wants to sell to customers. So complete path isolation mean= ing dedicated or a degree of isolation meaning logical isolation and each t= ier has a different price point.

Some of this verbiage is already in the appendix and may just nee= d some tweaking but I do agree it is an important to keep as part of the de= finition.

Kind Regards= =C2=A0

Gyan



On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 6:4= 3 AM LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com>= ; wrote:










=





Hi all,



=C2=A0



I agre= e with Xuesong in the fact that we cannot leave the idea of isolation open = to interpretation. This is precisely the reason why we need to have a defin= ition

on it in the context of transport slicing. <= /u>



=C2=A0



Best regards



=C2=A0



Luis



=C2=A0







De: Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org>

En nombre de Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
<= br>
Enviado el: jueves, = 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28


Para: Daniele Ceccarelli <d= aniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@i= etf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.ne= t>


CC: Vi= shnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>= ;


Asunto: Re: [T= eas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix







=C2=A0



Hi Daniele



<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;line-height:150%;font-family:Calibri,sans-se= rif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">= =C2=A0



= You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily under the c= oncept of isolation.

The first one disjointness is used mostly for = protection and the second one is a dedicated physical link/network for some= service. Isolation, in my understanding, describes the requirement that th= e traffic of service won=E2=80=99t interfere with each other when they
<= br> are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included.



And, most importantly, these possible dif= ferent understanding of this concept makes it more

necessary to be = clearly defined in the document.



<= u style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0



Xuesong



=C2=A0







From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]




= Sent: Wednesday, August 26,= 2020 9:34 PM


To: Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; G= engxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.= com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gma= il.com>;

TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>;= Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>

Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beera= m <vishnupavan@gmail.com>


Subject: RE: [Teas] WG adoptio= n - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix<= /u>







=C2=A0



Hi,



=C2=A0



I see different interpretations of isol= ation and they make me think we don=E2=80=99t need it, let me try to explai= n why.



=C2=A0





  1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a g= iven traffic must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port,= or a link=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s

    what we commonly call =E2=80=9Cdi= sjointness=E2=80=9D, right? We=E2=80=99ve been speaking about SRLG disjoint= ness for decades.
  2. In some other cases the req= uirement is not to have any type of interference from any type of traffic i= n the network=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s a leased line, or a dedicated network= =E2=80=A6we

    can=E2=80=99t really speak about network slice there.


=C2=A0



If I got the requirements right, I belie= ve we already have all the cases covered.


Am I missing any other requirement?



= =C2=A0



BR


Daniele=C2=A0


=C2=A0







= From:<= /b> Teas <= teas-bounces@ietf.org>

On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)


= Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 1= 4:56


To: Gengxue= song (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.co= m>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari

= Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>

Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram &l= t;vishnupavan@gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix<= /span>







= =C2=A0



I= also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to h= ave input from the WG about these terms.



=C2=A0



For isolation, there was = some discussion in design team about classifying the isolation requirement = into different dimensions in the

context of IETF, such as: traffic = separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, etc., then each can= be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and developed in IETF.



= =C2=A0



Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation fr= om a transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms

to = refer to some specific isolation requirement. <= /p>

=C2=A0



Best regards,



Jie



=C2=A0



=C2=A0



=






<= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From: Gengxueson= g (Geng Xuesong)




Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM


To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas= @ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.= net>


Cc: = Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com&= gt;


Subject: RE:= [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix=







=C2=A0



+1



And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not = a directly measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe

here is some fog about wh= at is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/value. But it doe= sn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not be defined = precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or not. It could b= e clarified by

some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text.= There is no conclusion yet just because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to = be existing in an WG document. And I don=E2=80=99t think the definition of = other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is different<= br>
from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it = in IETF.. We can=E2=80=99t say we could not get to somewhere because there = is no path.. Build the path by ourselves.=C2=A0



=C2=A0



Xuesong



=C2=A0







From: Teas [mail= to:teas-bounces@ietf.org]

On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura


Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM


To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkk= o@piuha....net>


Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gma= il.com>


Subje= ct: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= - Appendix






=

=C2=A0







<= span>I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forwar= d.


While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often= a legally binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as = a physical SRLG or disjointness.


It is also a viable constrain t= o be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation logic.


There are conn= ectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separation/isolation -= finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency, etc.

<= br>


We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and accept= able to the WG description as the document evolves.=C2=A0









=C2=A0

<= br>


Cheers,





Jeff=











On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wro= te:





High-le= vel bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if needed. = Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposals. Aut= hority to do stuff is entirely in the

WG now.




When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide = both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on = this.





Design team discussions:




We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion= on almost all of the calls we=E2=80=99ve had f= or the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indust= ry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared

conclus= ion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, = there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspec= tive is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several te= chniques that can provide

the desired characteristic of not having = your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give= you.





The text that we had was in an appendix precis= ely because we felt that the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and a= re sufficient by themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that

= =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the indus= try relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D<= /span>....





I can appreciate that we may have failed = in the task of writing that. Delete and move on, no biggie :-)


<= br>

Personal perspective:





My impression of cu= stomer requirements and how they get represented matches with what Joel has= been saying in this thread.





I= =E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.





If I h= ad my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary charact= eristics

=E2=80=94 such as that we promi= se you n GB/s. Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that exp= lains that this notion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and tha= t it can be represented using the primary characteristics,

and henc= e need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhaps also po= int out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary characteristi= cs promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening

with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand fr= om this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluct= ant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that,

too.





Jari




_______________________________________________


Teas ma= iling list


Te= as@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= /u>








<= br>










Este mensaje y= sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener i= nformaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la p= ersona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, qued= a notificado de que la

lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n = y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legis= laci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que = nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a su dest= rucci=C3=B3n.





The information contained in this tran= smission is privileged and confidential information intended only for the u= se of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message i= s not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disseminatio= n,

distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohib= ited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Plea= se immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communicatio= n in error and then delete it.





Esta mensagem e seus = anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=A1rio, pode conter info= rma=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 para uso exclusivo d= a pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o destin= at=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a

leitura, utiliza=C3= =A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o = pode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente. Se recebeu = esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por e= sta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o







_______________________________________________
=
Teas mailing list

Teas@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/teas

--


Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

M 30= 1 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
Silver Spring, MD

=

--0000000000001186f905ae09c137-- From nobody Sat Aug 29 13:28:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C0493A0FDD for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nFKMNsVu2iCw for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38BED3A0FDB for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id x17so839204uao.5 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zdXCgQ5o+AHy0/H80fdWBuqFYjWZbcJsC+N8HilAiRk=; b=B+szVF+vputR75aByk5/QKjict3yAYJNrrrjoOUF1SlpKu9oU3VZUaCyNL0HAiB9Cv TE0Z6sMN75plhDf371RdwaAs9NuCw/6WKXfCWCsCgeZeY49wMGLOO5/o150yiJjl5oWD riY21orx8GviDkez0Go9oONX5go2K6noVx90eCUQmB8C7L2NQZVR0Z+LHmeH8yXPaYhc m8jd6saiasx5AgsJm/vhlsjDNuSEtDdrPxfCE074wOCQWhkD6F3edoz2SIkTqjh3/ZP+ a/7lDrv6a7xzbe7rFjvsIO+P0gdAswTaSybS471iULhwE91hGVkvqxYcLNPgwyMgToPg KcNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zdXCgQ5o+AHy0/H80fdWBuqFYjWZbcJsC+N8HilAiRk=; b=d/0inCM2rvIvh46EBCWraOC4mKFkPCtFR0eT+3foHabrg8vX5mn3LNFnZpftEjkugQ XnvUe5vNuigT9nKGLa7a75b0W6ic7g8xHmw82fJz1VvcC3B2/7yCRSZIr4icC/Aq2jC8 IfMXa/kc1cAUtpQQINYzPCF8qbJ3s4amBy7MWyeksXgnXpFHTBjyaQ/RZBiHLZPU5IBE 1MsKMuu5xRhTDTOPdJGrnHyM6QWXdTVPJsrPJS/hbPZFXJPnS7n/0RHbeiSKwSZIXw6/ CNXtAVfcd7k1rw/O0/p9chAI1/IWMmFocxPwO//c4k9qZi9NUK937Spg0FBi9uIE4grI h31g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531X/QzIfRPU9IKwYZLhETa2Z1U2TzBk0bmeYo4uJ5YR2c1ykN/f biHJZwc8cRfrSfmwmmqGj3qLQgU/RoFZ4gtx9BqYyn3Pi6LD5w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyefcWPcghPpChbfgMmcDjkidjQY42ONTGaikmx+vInCXXAcxsLrYxrhWdOnmNg5E4rmz2mCKXMwy3Rtj8+j3E= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:7499:: with SMTP id n25mr2456895uap.118.1598732926961; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:28:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <30c835f5ce644ccf8f3568cdccb07b0a@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:28:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO Cc: Daniele Ceccarelli , "Dongjie (Jimmy)" , "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Jari Arkko , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033cc8f05ae0a0423" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 20:28:52 -0000 --00000000000033cc8f05ae0a0423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isolation in very basic terms you can think of the two ends of the spectrum dedicated and shared and then you have all the degrees of isolation to get to dedicated which would be the highest cost as far as tier of service. This concept is no different then provisioning optical OTN 100G circuits with path diversity that when provisioning circuits at Layer 1 you don=E2= =80=99t any DWDM wavelength to traverse a common pop or path. Kind Regards Gyan On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:09 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > > Hi All > > I have been following along on the =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D context de= bate and I agree > with Xuesong and Luis that I think it is important to define the concept = of > =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D as it pertains to transport slice. > > I agree with Adrian=E2=80=99s comment on transport slice and that the con= cept of > isolation as a service measurable from a customer point of view and what > they have access to as far as diagnostics as well as delivery isolation > which is an operators point of view of the slice and how transport had be= en > =E2=80=9Csliced=E2=80=9D so to speak t create physical or logical isolati= on. From a > isolation as a service perspective it does not have to be 100% measurable > by the customer as the customer would not have visibility into the provid= er > network. Does not mean that isolation as a service can not still be > provided by operators at a higher cost to customers. There maybe a way t= o > provide some transparency to customers so they can see what they are payi= ng > for. > > In basic terms =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D I agree is important to be def= ined as isolation > has many many different meaning and it could mean one thing to an operato= r > delivering the service and another thing for a customer paying for a high= er > tier Enhanced VPN service and so want to understand what they are getting > as far as SLA and how it can be proven and measured from a customer > perspective. > > The reason as well why isolation is critical abstraction layer from a TEA= S > traffic steering perspective and why it come up is that from a service > delivery perspective you can steer traffic onto a dedicated path that are > not shard resources and maybe can have =E2=80=9Cdegrees of isolation=E2= =80=9D as well in > terms of marketing a higher tier SLA to provide that degree of path > isolation by limiting the customers that traverse a traffic engineered > path. Also when you provisioning a higher tier Enhanced VPN and you hav= e > VPN A and VPN B and you provision for path diversity similarly to OTN 100= G > P2P wave circuit provisioning process. Their maybe customer parameters a= s > far as =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D and cost for the tiers of isolation th= at the operators > wants to sell to customers. So complete path isolation meaning dedicated = or > a degree of isolation meaning logical isolation and each tier has a > different price point. > > Some of this verbiage is already in the appendix and may just need some > tweaking but I do agree it is an important to keep as part of the > definition. > > Kind Regards > > Gyan > > > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 6:43 AM LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO < > luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> >> >> I agree with Xuesong in the fact that we cannot leave the idea of >> isolation open to interpretation. This is precisely the reason why we ne= ed >> to have a definition >> >> on it in the context of transport slicing. >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> >> >> >> >> Luis >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *De:* Teas >> >> *En nombre de *Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) >> >> >> *Enviado el:* jueves, 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28 >> >> >> *Para:* Daniele Ceccarelli ; Dongjie >> (Jimmy) ; Jeff Tantsura ; >> TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko >> >> >> *CC:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Asunto:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Daniele >> >> >> >> >> >> You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily under th= e >> concept of isolation. >> >> The first one disjointness is used mostly for protection and the second >> one is a dedicated physical link/network for some service. Isolation, in= my >> understanding, describes the requirement that the traffic of service won= =E2=80=99t >> interfere with each other when they >> >> are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included. >> >> >> And, most importantly, these possible different understanding of this >> concept makes it more >> >> necessary to be clearly defined in the document. >> >> >> >> >> >> Xuesong >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com >> ] >> >> >> >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:34 PM >> >> >> *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) ; Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) = < >> gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura ; >> >> TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko >> >> >> *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Subject:* RE: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> >> >> I see different interpretations of isolation and they make me think we >> don=E2=80=99t need it, let me try to explain why. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that a given traffic >> must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a port, or a >> link=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s >> >> what we commonly call =E2=80=9Cdisjointness=E2=80=9D, right? We=E2=80= =99ve been speaking >> about SRLG disjointness for decades. >> 2. In some other cases the requirement is not to have any type of >> interference from any type of traffic in the network=E2=80=A6that=E2= =80=99s a leased line, >> or a dedicated network=E2=80=A6we >> >> can=E2=80=99t really speak about network slice there. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If I got the requirements right, I believe we already have all the cases >> covered. >> >> >> Am I missing any other requirement? >> >> >> >> >> >> BR >> >> >> Daniele >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Teas >> >> *On Behalf Of *Dongjie (Jimmy) >> >> >> *Sent:* den 26 augusti 2020 14:56 >> >> >> *To:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) ; Jeff Tantsura >> ; TEAS WG ; Jari >> >> Arkko >> >> >> *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important >> to have input from the WG about these terms. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For isolation, there was some discussion in design team about classifyin= g >> the isolation requirement into different dimensions in the >> >> context of IETF, such as: traffic separation, interference avoidance, >> failure protection, etc., then each can be mapped to corresponding >> mechanisms defined and developed in IETF. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation fro= m >> a transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms >> >> to refer to some specific isolation requirement. >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> Jie >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) >> >> >> >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM >> >> >> *To:* Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; >> Jari Arkko >> >> >> *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Subject:* RE: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> +1 >> >> >> And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not a dir= ectly >> measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe >> >> here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described >> by number/value. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract conc= ept that >> could not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is >> isolated or not. It could be clarified by >> >> some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no >> conclusion yet just because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existin= g in an WG >> document. And I don=E2=80=99t think the definition of other SDOs really = matter. >> Because isolation in mobile network is different >> >> from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in >> IETF.. We can=E2=80=99t say we could not get to somewhere because there = is no >> path.. Build the path by ourselves. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Xuesong >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org ] >> >> *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura >> >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM >> >> >> *To:* TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko > > >> >> >> *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. >> >> >> While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally >> binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physic= al >> SRLG or disjointness. >> >> >> It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. >> >> >> There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical >> separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency= , >> etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal= ) or >> find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document >> evolves. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes i= f >> needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing >> proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the >> >> WG now. >> >> >> >> >> >> When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide >> both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective = on >> this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Design team discussions: >> >> >> >> >> >> We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls= we=E2=80=99ve >> had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation tha= t >> industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared >> >> conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the >> other side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a >> requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and tha= t >> there are several techniques that can provide >> >> the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the >> bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. >> >> >> >> >> >> The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that >> the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by >> themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that >> >> =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, = this term in the >> industry relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.... >> >> >> >> >> >> I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. >> Delete and move on, no biggie :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Personal perspective: >> >> >> >> >> >> My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented >> matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. >> >> >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. >> >> >> >> >> >> If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primar= y >> characteristics >> >> =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a footn= ote or >> appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has also bee= n >> discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the primary >> characteristics, >> >> and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could >> perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the >> primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept >> despite what=E2=80=99s happening >> >> with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I under= stand >> from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be >> reluctant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, >> >> too. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jari >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Teas mailing list >> >> >> Teas@ietf.org >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> >> Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, >> puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para us= o >> exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el >> destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la >> >> lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3= =B3n puede estar >> prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este = mensaje >> por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma >> v=C3=ADa y proceda a su destrucci=C3=B3n. >> >> >> >> >> >> The information contained in this transmission is privileged and >> confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or >> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, >> >> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If >> you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please >> immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communicatio= n >> in error and then delete it. >> >> >> >> >> >> Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu >> destinat=C3=A1rio, pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou conf= idencial e =C3=A9 para >> uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa= senhoria o >> destinat=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a >> >> leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem = autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar >> proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente. Se recebeu esta men= sagem por >> erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e >> proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teas mailing list >> >> Teas@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions A**rchitect * > > > > *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --00000000000033cc8f05ae0a0423 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Isolation in very basic terms you can= think of the two ends of the spectrum dedicated and shared and then you ha= ve all the degrees of isolation to get to dedicated which would be the high= est cost as far as tier of service.

This concept is no different then provisioning optical OTN 100G= circuits with path diversity that when provisioning circuits at Layer 1 yo= u don=E2=80=99t any DWDM wavelength to traverse a common pop or path.
=

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 4:09 P= M Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmai= l.com> wrote:

Hi All

I have been following along on the =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D context de= bate and I agree with Xuesong and Luis that I think it is important to defi= ne the concept of =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D as it pertains to transport s= lice.

I agree with Adria= n=E2=80=99s comment on transport slice and that the concept of isolation as= a service measurable from a customer point of view and what they have acce= ss to as far as diagnostics as well as delivery isolation which is an opera= tors point of view of the slice and how transport had been =E2=80=9Csliced= =E2=80=9D so to speak t create physical or logical isolation.=C2=A0 From a = isolation as a service perspective it does not have to be 100% measurable b= y the customer as the customer would not have visibility into the provider = network. Does not mean that isolation as a service can not still be provide= d by operators at a higher cost to customers.=C2=A0 There maybe a way to pr= ovide some transparency to customers so they can see what they are paying f= or.

In basic terms =E2= =80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D I agree is important to be defined as isolation ha= s many many different meaning and it could mean one thing to an operator de= livering the service and another thing for a customer paying for a higher t= ier Enhanced VPN service and so want to understand what they are getting as= far as SLA and how it can be proven and measured from a customer perspecti= ve.

The reason as well w= hy isolation is critical abstraction layer from a TEAS traffic steering per= spective and why it come up is that from a service delivery perspective you= can steer traffic onto a dedicated path that are not shard resources and m= aybe can have =E2=80=9Cdegrees of isolation=E2=80=9D as well in terms of ma= rketing a higher tier SLA to provide that degree of path isolation by limit= ing the customers that traverse a traffic engineered path. =C2=A0 Also when= you provisioning a higher tier Enhanced VPN and you have VPN A and VPN B a= nd you provision for path diversity similarly to OTN 100G P2P wave circuit = provisioning process.=C2=A0 Their maybe customer parameters as far as =E2= =80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D and cost for the tiers of isolation that the opera= tors wants to sell to customers. So complete path isolation meaning dedicat= ed or a degree of isolation meaning logical isolation and each tier has a d= ifferent price point.

So= me of this verbiage is already in the appendix and may just need some tweak= ing but I do agree it is an important to keep as part of the definition.

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan


On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 6:43 AM LUIS MIGU= EL CONTRERAS MURILLO <luismiguel.contrerasmurillo@telefonica.com> wrote:









=




=


Hi all,



=C2=A0



I= agree with Xuesong in the fact that we cannot leave the idea of isolation = open to interpretation. This is precisely the reason why we need to have a = definition

on it in the context of transport slicing.



=C2=A0



Best regards



=C2=A0



Lui= s



=C2=A0







De: Teas &= lt;teas-bounces@ietf.org>

En nombre de Gengxuesong (Geng Xues= ong)


Enviado el:= jueves, 27 de agosto de 2020 4:28


Para: Daniele Ceccarelli <daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com>; Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko= @piuha.net>


C= C: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.c= om>


Asunto: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Ap= pendix







<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0



Hi Daniele



=C2=A0


You have pointed out some technique that may not be necessarily unde= r the concept of isolation.

The first one disjointness is used most= ly for protection and the second one is a dedicated physical link/network f= or some service. Isolation, in my understanding, describes the requirement = that the traffic of service won=E2=80=99t interfere with each other when th= ey

are transmitted together. These two cases may not be included.



And, most importantly, these possib= le different understanding of this concept makes it more

necessary = to be clearly defined in the document.


<= br>

=C2=A0



Xuesong



=C2=A0







From: Daniele Ceccarelli [mailto:daniele.ceccarelli@ericsson.com]



=
Sent: Wednesday, August= 26, 2020 9:34 PM


To= : Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong@huawei.com>= ;; Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@hua= wei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf= @gmail.com>;

TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org&= gt;; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>

Cc: Vishnu Pavan B= eeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>

Subject: RE: [Teas] WG ado= ption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix







=C2=A0



Hi,



=C2=A0



I see different interpretations of = isolation and they make me think we don=E2=80=99t need it, let me try to ex= plain why.



=C2=A0





  1. In some cases I see as requirement the fact that= a given traffic must not share a path with another type of traffic, or a p= ort, or a link=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s

    what we commonly call =E2=80= =9Cdisjointness=E2=80=9D, right? We=E2=80=99ve been speaking about SRLG dis= jointness for decades.
  2. In some other cases the = requirement is not to have any type of interference from any type of traffi= c in the network=E2=80=A6that=E2=80=99s a leased line, or a dedicated netwo= rk=E2=80=A6we

    can=E2=80=99t really speak about network slice there.=


=C2=A0



If I got the requirements right, I bel= ieve we already have all the cases covered.

=

Am I missing any other requirement?<= /span>



=C2=A0



<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">BR


Daniele=C2=A0


=C2=A0







= From:<= /b> Teas <= teas-bounces@ietf.org>

On Behalf Of Dongjie (Jimmy)


= Sent: den 26 augusti 2020 1= 4:56


To: Gengxue= song (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.c= om>; TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari
Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>

Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram &l= t;vishnupavan@gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - = draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix<= /span>







= =C2=A0



I= also agree with the proposal of the chairs, and think it is important to h= ave input from the WG about these terms.



=C2=A0



For isolation, there was = some discussion in design team about classifying the isolation requirement = into different dimensions in the

context of IETF, such as: traffic = separation, interference avoidance, failure protection, etc., then each can= be mapped to corresponding mechanisms defined and developed in IETF.



= =C2=A0



Perhaps we could follow this way to clarify the meaning of isolation fr= om a transport slice point of view, and may find suitable terms

to = refer to some specific isolation requirement. <= /p>

=C2=A0



Best regards,



Jie



=C2=A0



=C2=A0



=






<= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From: Gengxueson= g (Geng Xuesong)




Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:40 AM


To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; TEAS WG <teas= @ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.= net>


Cc: = Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com&= gt;


Subject: RE:= [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix=







=C2=A0



+1



And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not = a directly measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe

here is some fog about wh= at is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/value. But it doe= sn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not be defined = precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or not. It could b= e clarified by

some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text.= There is no conclusion yet just because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to = be existing in an WG document. And I don=E2=80=99t think the definition of = other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile network is different<= br>
from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it = in IETF.. We can=E2=80=99t say we could not get to somewhere because there = is no path.. Build the path by ourselves.=C2=A0



=C2=A0



Xuesong



=C2=A0







From: Teas [mail= to:teas-bounces@ietf.org]

On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura


Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM


To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkk= o@piuha....net>


Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gma= il.com>


Subje= ct: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition= - Appendix






=

=C2=A0







<= span>I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forwar= d.


While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often= a legally binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as = a physical SRLG or disjointness.


It is also a viable constrain t= o be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation logic.


There are conn= ectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separation/isolation -= finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency, etc.

<= br>


We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and accept= able to the WG description as the document evolves.=C2=A0









=C2=A0

<= br>


Cheers,





Jeff=











On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wro= te:





High-le= vel bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if needed. = Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposals. Aut= hority to do stuff is entirely in the

WG now.




When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide = both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on = this.





Design team discussions:




We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion= on almost all of the calls we=E2=80=99ve had f= or the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that indust= ry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared

conclus= ion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the other side, = there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement perspec= tive is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several te= chniques that can provide

the desired characteristic of not having = your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give= you.





The text that we had was in an appendix precis= ely because we felt that the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and a= re sufficient by themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that

= =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the indus= try relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D<= /span>....





I can appreciate that we may have failed = in the task of writing that. Delete and move on, no biggie :-)


<= br>

Personal perspective:





My impression of cu= stomer requirements and how they get represented matches with what Joel has= been saying in this thread.





I= =E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.





If I h= ad my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary charact= eristics

=E2=80=94 such as that we promi= se you n GB/s. Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that exp= lains that this notion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and tha= t it can be represented using the primary characteristics,

and henc= e need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhaps also po= int out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary characteristi= cs promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening

with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand fr= om this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluct= ant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that,

too.





Jari




_______________________________________________


Teas ma= iling list


Te= as@ietf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas<= /u>








<= br>










Este mensaje y= sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener i= nformaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la p= ersona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, qued= a notificado de que la

lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n = y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legis= laci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que = nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a su dest= rucci=C3=B3n.





The information contained in this tran= smission is privileged and confidential information intended only for the u= se of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message i= s not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disseminatio= n,

distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohib= ited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Plea= se immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communicatio= n in error and then delete it.





Esta mensagem e seus = anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=A1rio, pode conter info= rma=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 para uso exclusivo d= a pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o destin= at=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a

leitura, utiliza=C3= =A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o = pode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente. Se recebeu = esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por e= sta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o







_______________________________________________
=
Teas mailing list

Teas@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/teas

--
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--00000000000033cc8f05ae0a0423-- From nobody Sat Aug 29 14:06:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B5D63A1018; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:06:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qq7ne5VPmFY8; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 963EA3A0B98; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07TL6f21016555; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:06:41 +0100 Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63E0622044; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:06:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp2.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.249]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D96522042; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:06:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.51.134.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp2.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07TL6ehd025536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:06:40 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Lou Berger'" , Cc: "'TEAS WG Chairs'" References: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:06:40 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <007101d67e48$4a8edcb0$dfac9610$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH8yyqMLj2FV5vO4hw7YvnJLKd3IgFWxy9RqPg5/IA= Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.51.134.114 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25634.002 X-TM-AS-Result: No--11.663-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--11.663-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25634.002 X-TMASE-Result: 10--11.663400-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtHxIbpQ8BhdbLqImyaR0axZMVx/3ZYby78G2HMvWEJentUw yrj5Civyuy5L9zYU1E0B5VDY2TkRRXqE/IIafU+/qjZ865FPtpoO9z+P2gwiBQJxDD/ayJRm6Za mopeZkvkUJdZ1HmvkUv0q3tG0LXi9DgAHIS2EadEZ9MKxHrUy4fIK8gK4rjpyWtcoU8Jtc7lj6y 1eE6mExfF2O74R6MgK5tsmnCSluamNZN06X0JyVTVNQerZ0cSEAgvM6h73Btp4e/u6WfZmUdO/Y 9RMDWyU9Csf7hhk5u+4J8EOeEZLm7UTfo0SbsRoi+quUbDYb+SDy9ksrAYVGOJ4ZAtEhpMklw+f 7XtsUQ9QGtlgt2g3mOORc+mJA7zJtI2CEEMRxDED2WXLXdz+AX23AkKVZZKXQJWgm/s1UB8DE6k /i6Y0RfsupqkTxD9s7POegsjHfkfVDncypCNbyPIq3+8DQd0oQWEGv3gaUmfuLrWPHZAw8iVIq/ lxS7KcKizFq/tv3XNOMEQFWdYpZPSQtYfOFz1BIAjxomarSPDYt7feNOis5oHXLqlE2qxyxytww T/CqKeODh9/UBkMhHh4x4OeN4pRrezMgYy7e85uXgIqq6mQyvMMVfCUdzao5Wx90MBPE1L3h2jy bQkTkjbvUfEvkpCDtuPb5PBt9q2Mcenel/LSetWvZ0LprH5qBGwExtNOAA8XY+gNTubOQHn9Hfu iScGp0GKpxI6So2lrsJa56rx8YgHrvE+oAkbolVHM/F6YkvT8vWy4J4eAKeTWTJAOkSPwKPndoQ HmoMubWIefkzyak5fvqX7qGxPjv7Q5vATVUMueAiCmPx4NwFkMvWAuahr8i2QFaYS1v20qtq5d3 cxkNQwWxr7XDKH8eORG6jGgooO7jHLMkiwPB1htDDFSg3PeRbZyjeRu8JaIe1RnELbIqg== X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:06:47 -0000 Hi Lou, Just to be clear, text was not removed from draft-ietf-enhanced-vpn and = moved to draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing pre-dates the enhanced VPN = work and only lapsed when the enhanced VPN draft was brought to TEAS = from RTGWG, and some (a lot?) of the same material was brought into the = enhanced VPN draft. But I think you bring out three good points for discussion: 1. Is enhanced VPN sufficiently equivalent to network slicing to mean = that discussing "realisation of VPN+ using ACTN" is a duplication of = discussing "applicability of ACTN to network slicing"? My opinion is = that when viewed at the service level, VPN+ and network slicing are = very, very similar. However, despite having the enhanced VPN framework = that described network slicing, the working group decided it wanted a = network slicing design team. That team has not come back with a = statement that the two concepts are very similar and has, in fact, = produced its own framework for slicing that might (or might not) overlap = with a current working group draft. 2. Should draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-VPN go in to details on technologies = that can deliver VPN+ or should it focus on describing the function and = architecture that is an enhanced VPN? The current section 5 ("Candidate = Technologies") gives a very brief description of the different network = and management technologies that could be used, and highlights areas for = future work, but it does not dig deep into solutions. Indeed, there are = a number of related solutions drafts in other working groups (LSR, BESS, = SPRING,...) that set out more detailed solutions work. In that respect, = the old sections 5.6.1 and 5.6.2 were overly detailed compared to the = rest of section 5, and removing text seems to have been a reasonable = thing to do. =20 3. How many is too many Informational documents? While the various VPN+ = solutions drafts in other WGs are marked as Standards Track, it is a = strangeness of where we are with ACTN that there is already and = architecture and there are already YANG models (done or being worked on) = that address all of the protocol needs. All that a document requires to = do is show which of those models to use where and when in order to = enable support for network slicing using ACTN, and that makes the = document Informational. Once upon a time it was quite popular to write = "cookbook" style Informational RFCs that helped people work out how to = pull together bits of technology and build systems. Depending on the discussion of these three questions we could: a. Pull material from draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing into = draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn and abandon = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing b. Adopt draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and publish both it = and draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn c. Abandon the work of the network slicing design team folding new text = into draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn d. Adopt and publish lots of documents e. Any combination of the above I think it is reasonable to ask the WG: - Is there a substantive difference between VPN+ and network slicing? - Do we want to describe how to use ACTN for network slicing? I don't think it is reasonable to ask the WG: - What documents do you want to publish to achieve all of this? This is my belief because the WG is focused on technology not the = niceties of publication. Actually, you either have to take the documents = that people are working on, or you (as chairs) have to tell us what = documents we should be working on (to which me might, of course, object = :-) Lots of fun? Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Lou Berger =20 Sent: 29 August 2020 19:56 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing Hi Adrian, On 8/28/2020 6:26 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > ... > > Looking forward to your thoughts on this. As we (chairs) mentioned to you off-list, before we can talk about=20 adoption of this document we still have the issue of working through the = discussion at the last meeting. Specifically the text that was removed=20 from the WG document ( draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn) that is largely=20 present in this document. My question is: assuming the text in is=20 restored from draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn-05, are there one or more=20 suitable existing (or candidate) WG documents that could be a home for=20 the remaining valuable text that is currently in=20 applicability-actn-slicing document? -- after all how many information=20 documents do we really need on this topic.... I think this is a question not only for you and your coauthors, but also = for the WG as a whole. Cheers, Lou > Best, > Adrian > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Sat Aug 29 14:37:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56093A105B for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10=0.26, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GK7hS1V1OhU5 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A4753A105A for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r13so2680011ljm.0 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lKwjQsJGOPhC8KOqTgFhgdfRx3RG4CxUYRgUVzkcDAE=; b=MOTzL9e6YAhwgWGQePOa3vHk2/OcdypyIAdQT7o52423OEfwPvF7OiL3dwtXPunc1y 0NQuD8Gp3EgcdedVv7y1nXsvCBozDuOVpPqm9Ivh/3d2KzjsnloKUDGa+YqRNl0k8XmT hRPYuhoFLZLaRkPwP+jnW+k4593zZiq84jdfBaK9W+qs8ACMFsry7OwQgn6QNSCEs/+a RPkNwlI8QvPN8pc1m/ga8NNOAiFULD8PfQfd4/Yhvj/eGXAPsDnzbZROyHbFbcZkF3TN djmiRmAeIt66JurbPILfY5dPjfk7KYBJK7xMfKUGz5c6iXDil+4cpVPDeuhUi6mXyyGM /w/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lKwjQsJGOPhC8KOqTgFhgdfRx3RG4CxUYRgUVzkcDAE=; b=sCQeN0zxgNvyQf4J/sqYhrlLJXHUr2q+4+/c9gD+mnlH3UP0eypHDSJ3pwsYH780aK ITM6k3MMU7DIHWdLHosHjmhvezfqRt5WJq4MyW4S1Q9K4qqXV0+QULNA8ZvR91u/NmDe jKw89qMmw/EY8pdP3Bu7iwJ1cNfHExOwsknTTAw1YsaQywx5HtU9YXrKVf2W1IDaRFvW ml7/2zilNE2yIlwLltl8r+Yn7mKMNHATUrk3qaWdoP2EBE75gSCrqa0dX2DL4zKgZz46 5GInkwU0zM1GiiOtlTUvUxAhcs8XoGTNgyCrkVqWIg+ZJ3ATmKKm7rIu0dJSwUZw7JK1 Iz7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FLrRd4BTbPSL2D3Dhyi2nL0+4ow+c4WAvlI7SCp4+QMy6jJFq sZqpcMhrNfAQdRwSxBbdQp4JpPyAW5ayCRTsbfI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxPQYN29li7jxSRdg949UELyk6NumbcCNC/VtIqDWhE8GssVUkSDEHV6VwI+h0FhcWKpGExI9lBEo/9UfefleM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8648:: with SMTP id i8mr2309821ljj.288.1598737069018; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:37:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" Cc: Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Jari Arkko , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016920f05ae0afb6f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:37:54 -0000 --00000000000016920f05ae0afb6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Xuesong, I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for "dedicated" and is intended to apply to cases when transport slices share underlying infrastructure. If that is the case, I think there's a sort of contradiction between statements "isolation is SLO" and "isolation is not directly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, What is the opposite of isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine that one example of that would be a case when the flow from one slice is using resources from another, i.e., interference between slices. There is a number of performance metrics that may indicate the lack of isolation but that, in my view, can be attributed to under-isolation (for the lack of better term at the moment) between slices as the result of root cause analysis of increased latency and/or packet loss. And even if interference from another slice doesn't result in observable quality degradation, an operator can compare the offered load from the customer with the available BW. And that information doesn't have to be measured by the client but reported by the operator in the agreed intervals and aggregated on an hourly and daily basis. Certainly, we can have more cases that constitute the un-isolationism of slices but that, I suspect, still will be observable, measurable, calculable through other SLOs and only the analysis will point to the inadequate isolation of resources. But back to the isolation. I believe that the proposal from WG Chairs is the best way forward. Let us explore our interpretations of the term and work on formulating one we can build consensus (rough) around. And if so happens that there is none, then we all get a better understanding of the problem and may get it in the new document. Regards, Greg On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote: > +1 > > And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not a dire= ctly > measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable.= Isolation > could not described by number/value. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it = is an > abstract concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking > whether TE link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep > analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet jus= t > because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. = And I > don=E2=80=99t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because i= solation > in mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is > requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can=E2=80=99t say we could not= get to > somewhere because there is no path. Build the path by ourselves. > > > > Xuesong > > > > *From:* Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM > *To:* TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > > > I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. > While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally > binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physica= l > SRLG or disjointness. > It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. > There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical > separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency, > etc. > > We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal)= or find > an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document > evolves. > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , wrote= : > > High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if > needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing > proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. > > When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide > both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective o= n > this. > > Design team discussions: > > We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls = we=E2=80=99ve > had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that > industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared > conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the oth= er > side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement > perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are > several techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not > having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider has agree= d > to give you. > > The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that th= e > top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves= . > The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple = ways to achieve > this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to our work in th= is > indirect way=E2=80=9D.. > > I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. > Delete and move on, no biggie :-) > > Personal perspective: > > My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented > matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > > I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. > > If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary > characteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I woul= d write > a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation > has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using t= he > primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this > document. One could perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways t= o > implement the primary characteristics promises, so that those promises ca= n > be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s tr= affic. And leave > it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant t= o > do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I= =E2=80=99m > fine with that, too. > > Jari > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > --00000000000016920f05ae0afb6f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --00000000000016920f05ae0afb6f-- From nobody Sat Aug 29 15:29:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E613A1105 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBZo8cXQy4v3 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC9833A0FAF for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id p3so1470478vsr.4 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:29:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HcIi2zqnLBXOknxFnQdMdIVvnZIMaC1FNZYXEdeu9iA=; b=mZduO0DYDVGiEcp9f/YP+oguSpQPnuHKzBt/BJPE3SlC3w6Gf3RwV+cUevUwgKTImV +uZPBEU6XQWES3Gf5dH5LU4gobX3+FeghkLOVq8BSnFiydGNaXLSQNWKHu98QspPKXwZ aprOTNCHnisOsBx+FpZ02GctFSbqcB2nF3lTOoXTUD+R78exaDt7NEsayqfWR6/osYxY DL9hgjolYmG6UAZGsvcW3QRb1UKpDxcFMDQ4wsS0H1EJ3GVxOUYnnCguIO4ZVq+Lpm+A bVuJ+i3PR64+yBKakkF05viduvREGlS4QZQd1rRhwFl45lsihCpgv1ZcEJ39et8equ1b 7QpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HcIi2zqnLBXOknxFnQdMdIVvnZIMaC1FNZYXEdeu9iA=; b=PwNcX/wJraZ0TV5aNJnXnfl/qLVR9TLrwy5pHd6wHGxcYNgOydFydFe4gqk4grNt8c lgc/BXlbbse7lj7XuaAleh5UoUzgNxJetBcsXinGpmltvamB+Nyzjlv1qIiJkw3ZbWKq /sWiMCxTTu7yWalr9duoZ94BYF8DhCOV4vN06bLL/gbt5TEhF/0yS8SSpV/G/TXt4ZpN 3y8naQbUYqEh8G/VcqqYxUv4MEQFvxBSgjd/Z2WjcSWIpicoIjPdQWRNNXu6J23ZZFBJ qFFuglDVFeWvKuu5mM/N/oQOkVm1l4u0wGFkbrlnwUnovKied6tZwqh3gAm9EG6MmmeG cOig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532NHUQccrKQl4eQFAyXFyIck/R+AP9uaOa/rtbrLlEuB3HpJhV6 AOk/VgSzy6ZkYEieaso57Ujm1SKd7IJlNYyPbgY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6XZOQ7JtECVQX6rtVBax9bffTkCSmUrNZXYjF4abqFFhZHVmAgMJ2jVwGXIE0h5rnUlTId5mDJVDiDdh0fxw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:388:: with SMTP id m8mr2594077vsq.139.1598740150662; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 15:29:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:28:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" , Jari Arkko , Jeff Tantsura , TEAS WG , Vishnu Pavan Beeram Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4ba7f05ae0bb206" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 22:29:15 -0000 --000000000000c4ba7f05ae0bb206 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg Sorry to speak out of turn. I agree with you from my perspective that =E2=80=9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is an= abstraction or dedicated so is not the same and that is why you can have degrees of isolation between slices and as you mention with the slices stepping on each other or cross talk as far as resource sharing. My guess on opposite of isolation from TS perspective is where all VPN overlay have the same treatment and all the same characteristics as far as SLO and they all sit on the same set of TSEs. There maybe some cases where with RSVP TE is used for per VRF TE coloring or SR based SR-TE per VRF coloring where different VPNs have different set of TSE paths and may have a degree of isolation based on TSEs set and sharing of resources. So both examples from a TS perspective would have based on TSO metrics have a degree of isolation or segregation of traffic. Kind Regards Gyan On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 5:37 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Xuesong, > I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for > "dedicated" and is intended to apply to cases when transport slices share > underlying infrastructure. If that is the case, I think there's a sort o= f > contradiction between statements "isolation is SLO" and "isolation is not > directly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, What is the opposite of > isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine that one example of that woul= d > be a case when the flow from one slice is using resources from another, > i.e., interference between slices. There is a number of performance metri= cs > that may indicate the lack of isolation but that, in my view, can be > attributed to under-isolation (for the lack of better term at the moment) > between slices as the result of root cause analysis of increased latency > and/or packet loss. And even if interference from another slice doesn't > result in observable quality degradation, an operator can compare the > offered load from the customer with the available BW. And that informatio= n > doesn't have to be measured by the client but reported by the operator in > the agreed intervals and aggregated on an hourly and daily basis. > Certainly, we can have more cases that constitute the un-isolationism of > slices but that, I suspect, still will be observable, measurable, > calculable through other SLOs and only the analysis will point to the > inadequate isolation of resources. > But back to the isolation. I believe that the proposal from WG Chairs is > the best way forward. Let us explore our interpretations of the term and > work on formulating one we can build consensus (rough) around. And if so > happens that there is none, then we all get a better understanding of the > problem and may get it in the new document. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) < > gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> +1 >> >> >> And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not a dir= ectly >> measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe here is some >> >> fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described by >> number/value. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract concept= that could >> not be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated = or >> not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, >> >> good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because >> we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I d= on=E2=80=99t think >> the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in mobile >> network is different from isolation >> >> in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can=E2= =80=99t say >> we could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the path b= y >> ourselves. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Xuesong >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] >> >> *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura >> >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM >> >> >> *To:* TEAS WG ; Jari Arkko >> >> >> *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. >> >> >> While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally >> binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physic= al >> SRLG or disjointness. >> >> >> It is also a viable constrain to be used in a path computation logic. >> >> >> There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical >> separation/isolation - finance for security reasons, DCI for resiliency= , >> etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (which is the complete removal= ) or >> find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the document >> evolves. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko , >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With changes i= f >> needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there just for preparing >> proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely in the WG now. >> >> >> >> >> >> When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide >> both a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective = on >> this. >> >> >> >> >> >> Design team discussions: >> >> >> >> >> >> We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls= we=E2=80=99ve >> had for the last year. One one side there was our shared observation tha= t >> industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared >> >> conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the >> other side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a >> requirement perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and tha= t >> there are several techniques that can provide >> >> the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the >> bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you. >> >> >> >> >> >> The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that >> the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by >> themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that >> >> =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, = this term in the >> industry relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D.. >> >> >> >> >> >> I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. >> Delete and move on, no biggie :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> Personal perspective: >> >> >> >> >> >> My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented >> matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. >> >> >> >> >> >> I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix. >> >> >> >> >> >> If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primar= y >> characteristics >> >> =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then I would write a footn= ote or >> appendix somewhere that explains that this notion isolation has also bee= n >> discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the primary >> characteristics, >> >> and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could >> perhaps also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the >> primary characteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept >> despite what=E2=80=99s happening >> >> with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I under= stand >> from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may even be >> reluctant to write anything about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that, >> >> too. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jari >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Teas mailing list >> >> >> Teas@ietf.org >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Teas mailing list >> >> >> Teas@ietf.org >> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Teas mailing list > > Teas@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > -- *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000c4ba7f05ae0bb206 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Greg

<= div dir=3D"auto">Sorry to speak out of turn.=C2=A0
Hi Xuesong,
I assume that the term &q= uot;isolation" is not simply a replacement for "dedicated" a= nd=C2=A0is intended to apply to cases when transport slices share underlyin= g infrastructure. If that is the case,=C2=A0 I think there's a sort of = contradiction between statements "isolation is SLO" and "iso= lation is not directly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, What is= the opposite of isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine that one examp= le of that would be a case when the flow from one slice is using resources = from another, i.e., interference between slices. There is a number of perfo= rmance metrics that may indicate the lack of isolation but that, in my view= , can be attributed to under-isolation (for the lack of better term at the = moment) between slices as the result of root cause analysis of increased la= tency and/or packet loss. And even if interference from another slice doesn= 't result in observable quality degradation, an operator can compare th= e offered load from the customer with the available=C2=A0BW. And that infor= mation doesn't have to be measured by the client but reported by the op= erator in the agreed intervals and aggregated on an hourly=C2=A0and daily= =C2=A0basis. Certainly, we can have more cases that=C2=A0constitute the un-= isolationism of slices but that, I suspect, still will be observable, measu= rable, calculable through other SLOs and only the analysis will point to th= e inadequate isolation=C2=A0of resources.
But back to the isolati= on. I believe that the proposal from WG Chairs is the best way forward. Let= us explore our interpretations of the term and work on formulating one we = can build consensus (rough) around. And if so happens that there is none, t= hen we all get a better understanding of the problem and may get it in the = new document.

Regards,
Greg
<= br>
On Tue,= Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com> wrote:

+1

And one more supplementary comment about =E2=80=9CIsolatio= n is not a directly measurable SLO=E2=80=9D. Maybe here is some fog about what is measurable. Isolation could not described by number/valu= e. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an abstract concept that could no= t be defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or no= t. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because w= e don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don= =E2=80=99t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolat= ion in mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can=E2=80= =99t say we could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the = path by ourselves.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Xuesong

=C2=A0=

From: Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM
To: TEAS WG <t= eas@ietf.org>; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <vishnupavan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-de= finition - Appendix

=C2=A0

I find Pavan and Lou proposal r= easonable and a good/working way forward.
While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a legally bin= ding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a physical SRL= G or disjointness.
It is also a viable constrain to be used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation l= ogic.
There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separati= on/isolation - finance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency,= etc.

We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t exist (whic= h is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG = description as the document evolves.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700= , Jari Arkko <= jari.arkko@piuha.net>, wrote:

High-level bit: I would like to= see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Desig= n teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is en= tirely in the WG now.

When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide bo= th a context from design team discussions and my personal perspective on th= is.

Design team discussions:

We=E2=80=99ve had variants of this discussion o= n almost all of the calls we=E2=80=99ve had for= the last year. One one side there was our shared observation that industry= uses the term isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able to relate to this. On the othe= r side, there was our shared agreement that what matters from a requirement= perspective is the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are se= veral techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour affect the bandwid= th the service provider has agreed to give you.

The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we felt that the = top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by themselves. = The appendix only attempts to say that =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the indus= try relates to our work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D..

I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing that. Delet= e and move on, no biggie :-)

Personal perspective:

My impression of customer requirements and how they get represented matches= with what Joel has been saying in this thread.

I=E2=80=99m fine removing the appendix.

If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on the primary c= haracteristics =E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. T= hen I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this = notion isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be repr= esented using the primary characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this document. One could perhap= s also point out that there are multiple ways to implement the primary char= acteristics promises, so that those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And lea= ve it at that. But I understand from this thread that people are reluctant = to do that, and may even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I<= /span>=E2=80=99m fine with that, too.

Jari

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

_______________________________________________
Teas mailing list
Teas@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas
<= br>
I agree with you from my perspective that =E2=80= =9Cisolation=E2=80=9D is an abstraction or dedicated so is not the same and= that is why you can have degrees of isolation between slices and as you me= ntion with the slices stepping on each other or cross talk as far as resour= ce sharing.

My guess on = opposite of isolation from TS perspective is where all VPN overlay have the= same treatment and all the same characteristics as far as SLO and they all= sit on the same set of TSEs.

There maybe some cases where with RSVP TE is used for per VRF TE colo= ring or SR based SR-TE per VRF coloring where different VPNs have different= set of TSE paths and may have a degree of isolation based on TSEs set and = sharing of resources.=C2=A0 So both examples from a TS perspective would ha= ve based on TSO metrics have a degree of isolation or segregation of traffi= c.

Kind Regards=C2=A0

Gyan

On Sat, Aug 29, 2= 020 at 5:37 PM Greg Mirsky <gre= gimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Xuesong,
I assume that the term "isolation&q= uot; is not simply a replacement for "dedicated" and=C2=A0is inte= nded to apply to cases when transport slices share underlying infrastructur= e. If that is the case,=C2=A0 I think there's a sort of contradiction b= etween statements "isolation is SLO" and "isolation is not d= irectly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, What is the opposite o= f isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine that one example of that woul= d be a case when the flow from one slice is using resources from another, i= .e., interference between slices. There is a number of performance metrics = that may indicate the lack of isolation but that, in my view, can be attrib= uted to under-isolation (for the lack of better term at the moment) between= slices as the result of root cause analysis of increased latency and/or pa= cket loss. And even if interference from another slice doesn't result i= n observable quality degradation, an operator can compare the offered load = from the customer with the available=C2=A0BW. And that information doesn= 9;t have to be measured by the client but reported by the operator in the a= greed intervals and aggregated on an hourly=C2=A0and daily=C2=A0basis. Cert= ainly, we can have more cases that=C2=A0constitute the un-isolationism of s= lices but that, I suspect, still will be observable, measurable, calculable= through other SLOs and only the analysis will point to the inadequate isol= ation=C2=A0of resources.
But back to the isolation. I believe tha= t the proposal from WG Chairs is the best way forward. Let us explore our i= nterpretations of the term and work on formulating one we can build consens= us (rough) around. And if so happens that there is none, then we all get a = better understanding of the problem and may get it in the new document.

Regards,
Greg

O= n Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com&g= t; wrote:















+1



And one more supplementa= ry comment about =E2=80=9CIsolation is not a directly measurable SLO=E2=80= =9D. Maybe here is some

fog about what is measurable. Isolation cou= ld not described by number/value. But it doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it is an= abstract concept that could not be defined precisely. People are asking wh= ether TE link is isolated or not. It could be clarified by some deep analys= is,

good discussions and clear text. There is no conclusion yet jus= t because we don=E2=80=99t even allow it to be existing in an WG document. = And I don=E2=80=99t think the definition of other SDOs really matter. Becau= se isolation in mobile network is different from isolation

in IETF.= If there is requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can=E2=80=99t say w= e could not get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the path by ou= rselves.=C2=A0



=C2=A0


Xuesong



<= u style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0







From:= Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org]
=
On Behalf Of Jeff Tants= ura


Sent: Wednes= day, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM


To: TEAS WG <teas@ietf.org>; Jari A= rkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>


Cc: Vishnu Pavan Beeram <<= a href=3D"mailto:vishnupavan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-fam= ily:Calibri,sans-serif">vishnupavan@gmail.com>


Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - d= raft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix







=C2=A0







I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward.

While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a l= egally binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed as a ph= ysical SRLG or disjointness.


It is also a viable constrain to be= used in=C2=A0=C2=A0a path computation logic.


There are connecti= vity RFIs that explciteily require full physical separation/isolation - fin= ance for security reasons,=C2=A0=C2=A0DCI for resiliency, etc.


<= br>

We could pretend it doesn=E2=80=99t = exist (which is the complete removal) or find an appropriate and acceptable= to the WG description as the document evolves.=C2=A0<= /p>







=C2=A0<= /span>





= Cheers,





Jeff





<= /div>





On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari= Arkko <jari.a= rkko@piuha.net>, wrote:





=





High-level bit: = I would like to see the document adopted. With changes if needed. Let the W= G decide. Design teams are there just for preparing proposals. Authority to= do stuff is entirely in the WG now.





When it comes t= o the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to provide both a context fr= om design team discussions and my personal perspective on this.


=


Design team discussions:





We=E2=80= =99ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of= the calls we=E2=80=99ve had for the last year.= One one side there was our shared observation that industry uses the term = isolation, and (perhaps less widely shared

conclusion) that it is i= mportant to be able to relate to this. On the other side, there was our sha= red agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is the bandw= idth and other requirements, and that there are several techniques that can= provide

the desired characteristic of not having your neighbour af= fect the bandwidth the service provider has agreed to give you.


=


The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we fe= lt that the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are sufficient by = themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that

=E2=80=9C<= span lang=3D"EN-US">there=E2=80=99s multiple wa= ys to achieve this, and by the way, this term in the industry relates to ou= r work in this indirect way=E2=80=9D..

<= br>


I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writ= ing that. Delete and move on, no biggie :-)





Personal= perspective:





My impression of customer requirements= and how they get represented matches with what Joel has been saying in thi= s thread.





I=E2=80=99m fi= ne removing the appendix.





If I had my way, I would w= rite the document based entirely on the primary characteristics

=E2=80=94 such as that we promise you n GB/s. Then = I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that explains that this noti= on isolation has also been discussed elsewhere, and that it can be represen= ted using the primary characteristics,

and hence need not be discus= sed further in this document. One could perhaps also point out that there a= re multiple ways to implement the primary characteristics promises, so that= those promises can be kept despite what=E2=80=99s happening

with your neighbour=E2=80=99s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand from this thread that = people are reluctant to do that, and may even be reluctant to write anythin= g about isolation. I=E2=80=99m fine with that,<= br>
too.





Jari





___________= ____________________________________


Teas mailing list

Teas@ietf.org
<= br>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas










_______________________________________________


Teas mailin= g list


Teas@i= etf.org


https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/teas




___________________= ____________________________

Teas mailing list

Teas@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas

--

=

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<= /p>

M 301 502-1347
13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
= Silver Spring, MD


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Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgADFS3CABXTZgIACcr1A Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:11:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <330a76d8-2f05-795f-42a6-01de094b54b4@joelhalpern.com> <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_de600c9d3f92433bb29ba98044530adchuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org 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<5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 23:31:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:31:32 -0000 Assuming the description you give below, I have two related questions. If the performance is great, why would the transport user care whether it is not actually isolated? Conversely, if the performance does not meet the needs, then why would the transport user care that isolation has been preserved? Yours, Joel On 8/30/2020 11:11 PM, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Thank you for directing the discussion to the technical nature of > isolation. Please find comments below: > > I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for > "dedicated" and is intended to apply to cases when transport slices > share underlying infrastructure. > > I agree about your description of isolation. Although there may be other > kinds of understanding which will broaden the scope of this concept. I > will leave it to the authors and WG. The discussions below based on the > assumption that “isolation is intended to apply to cases when transport > slices share underlying infrastructure ”. > > There is a number of performance metrics that may indicate the lack of > isolation but that, in my view, can be attributed to under-isolation > (for the lack of better term at the moment) between slices as the result > of root cause analysis of increased latency and/or packet loss. > > I think here hides some basic logic behind the debate: if the isolation > could be described indirectly by other SLO attribute, whether we still > need it as an independent concept. My answer is: the hypothetical part > of the question is incorrect, because *isolation can’t be described by > other attributes, although it influences other attributes.* A further > conclusion is that : *Deterioration of other SLO metrics is neither > sufficient nor necessary for isolation absence*. Two simple examples to > defense this: > > 1.When isolation is perfectly executed that there is no interfere among > different slices, the performance could still be very terrible if the > resource inside the slice is exhausted. > > 2.When there is no isolation among slices and all the resource is > shared, the performance could still be very great if the resource is > sufficient for all the slices. > > So the trick here is: other SLO attributes (delay, jitter, loss…) depend > on whether there is enough cake to make everybody happy, and isolation > prevents other guys to touch my cake. They're relevant, but they're > different, and not interchangeable. > > That is why I agree that isolation should be clearly defined in > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition, not in Appendix. > > Regards, > > Xuesong > > *From:*Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2020 5:38 AM > *To:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > *Cc:* Jeff Tantsura ; TEAS WG ; > Jari Arkko ; Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > Hi Xuesong, > > I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for > "dedicated" and is intended to apply to cases when transport slices > share underlying infrastructure. If that is the case,  I think there's a > sort of contradiction between statements "isolation is SLO" and > "isolation is not directly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, What > is the opposite of isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine that one > example of that would be a case when the flow from one slice is using > resources from another, i.e., interference between slices. There is a > number of performance metrics that may indicate the lack of isolation > but that, in my view, can be attributed to under-isolation (for the lack > of better term at the moment) between slices as the result of root cause > analysis of increased latency and/or packet loss. And even if > interference from another slice doesn't result in observable quality > degradation, an operator can compare the offered load from the customer > with the available BW. And that information doesn't have to be measured > by the client but reported by the operator in the agreed intervals and > aggregated on an hourly and daily basis. Certainly, we can have more > cases that constitute the un-isolationism of slices but that, I suspect, > still will be observable, measurable, calculable through other SLOs and > only the analysis will point to the inadequate isolation of resources. > > But back to the isolation. I believe that the proposal from WG Chairs is > the best way forward. Let us explore our interpretations of the term and > work on formulating one we can build consensus (rough) around. And if so > happens that there is none, then we all get a better understanding of > the problem and may get it in the new document. > > Regards, > > Greg > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > wrote: > > +1 > > And one more supplementary comment about “Isolation is not a > directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is > measurable. Isolation could not described by number/value. But it > doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not be > defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or > not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions > and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don’t > even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don’t think > the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in > mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is > requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can’t say we could not > get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the path by ourselves. > > Xuesong > > *From:*Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM > *To:* TEAS WG >; Jari Arkko > > > *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram > > *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. > While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a > legally binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed > as a physical SRLG or disjointness. > It is also a viable constrain to be used in  a path computation logic. > There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical > separation/isolation - finance for security reasons,  DCI for > resiliency, etc. > > We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which is the complete removal) or > find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the > document evolves. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >, wrote: > > High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With > changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there > just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely > in the WG now. > > When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to > provide both a context from design team discussions and my > personal perspective on this. > > Design team discussions: > > We’ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls > we’ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared > observation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps > less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able > to relate to this. On the other side, there was our shared > agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is > the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several > techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not > having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider > has agreed to give you. > > The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we > felt that the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are > sufficient by themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that > “there’s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this > term in the industry relates to our work in this indirect way”.. > > I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing > that. Delete and move on, no biggie :-) > > Personal perspective: > > My impression of customer requirements and how they get > represented matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > > I’m fine removing the appendix. > > If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on > the primary characteristics — such as that we promise you n > GB/s. Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that > explains that this notion isolation has also been discussed > elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the primary > characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this > document. One could perhaps also point out that there are > multiple ways to implement the primary characteristics promises, > so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with > your neighbour’s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand > from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may > even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine > with that, too. > > Jari > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > > > _______________________________________________ > Teas mailing list > Teas@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > From nobody Sun Aug 30 21:00:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8AA23A0E1B for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXMIMf_Wjem2 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0C423A0E19 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml723-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 1D3AE1B82D2C78F83FB1 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 05:00:34 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) by lhreml723-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.74) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 05:00:32 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:00:30 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:00:30 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgADFS3CABXTZgIACcr1A//+CdICAAI2WQA== Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:00:30 +0000 Message-ID: <089476000b484e4fbe6a8bc7dffbd93c@huawei.com> References: <93726585-ccdd-3460-e6c6-540f98ec9084@joelhalpern.com> <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_089476000b484e4fbe6a8bc7dffbd93chuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YJUmqhoqUlMO for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8713E3A0E53 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BfxZf2sJ0z6GBB8; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1598847050; bh=jf4IjxCMrD7klWYcof/w1FBFc5E6WAZ3qzI1krLBkfI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=S3lbY49RviM+Z+oKKDzIo0ZVJ3172R2FqBEaM1usXzPo/VQJ63PGZpJYJZq5IWGXL clEv3kgG8ZMEnB60pOcxD5Ox80eCQefDnBZ7srorbqHpM2RW1I/715X7RhBuq57y97 w+kFqFZYjlOVsJpiskmOQaHwB5gReImpPLaflMBk= X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BfxZd1ps7z6G98X; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:10:49 -0700 (PDT) To: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" Cc: TEAS WG References: <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <089476000b484e4fbe6a8bc7dffbd93c@huawei.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <9b07c75c-b43f-9fed-a190-d127f730c18b@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 00:10:47 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <089476000b484e4fbe6a8bc7dffbd93c@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:10:53 -0000 You list two points. I am confused by both of them. I will paraphrase each with my confusion. (Posasibly my paraphrase will indicate that I am misunderstanding you. If so, please clarify and accept my apologies for misunderstanding. Point 1) networks change. You then claim isolation says that my network changes won't affect you. Isn't that the point of attaching a confidence to an SLO. If I tell you that I will meet the requirements 99.99% of the time, that seems to be what the custoemr is asking for. As I ahve said before, the custoemr does not seem to care whether a failure is caused by competing traffic or by a network failure or a backhoe or ... He is still not getting what he wants. So I expect a customer to want a commitment that he will get what he has been promised, not merely avoidance of a specific failure mode. Point 2) What I do in my slice (VPN, traffic set, ...) is my problem. Mostly agreed. But what does that have to do with isolation?Or with SLO? The one aspect on which I disagree is that in order to operate his network, an operator may well police high priority traffic from a customer to stay within the limit that the customer has agreed to. In that sense, an end customer failure may make more work for the operator, not just the customer. But that still has nothing to do with isolation. Once we have a document adopted (with placeholders) I would be interested to see an actionable clear defintion of "isolation". I have not seen one to date. Neither the text we are removing, nor the earlier text that was present, constitute such a definition. And various people's examples have suggested very different (if vague) definitions. Yours, Joel On 8/31/2020 12:00 AM, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Good question. Answers inline. > > Regards > > Xuesong > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Monday, August 31, 2020 11:31 AM > To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > Cc: TEAS WG > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > > Assuming the description you give below, I have two related questions. > > If the performance is great, why would the transport user care whether > it is not actually isolated? > > Conversely, if the performance does not meet the needs, then why would > the transport user care that isolation has been preserved? > > 2 perspectives: > > 1.The essence of performance measurement is sampling. Network changes > all the time. Good performance at 8 o'clock doesn’t mean good > performance at 9 o'clock. Isolation shows the fact to the transport > user: no matter when, my performance won’t be bothered by other users. > > 2.Further assumption is: the traffic in my slice is under my control, > but I can't keep my neighbors from overloading. In the context of > isolation ensuring, if the user is still not satisfied with the > performance, limit traffic or increase capacity inside the slice. Fair game. > > Yours, > > Joel > > On 8/30/2020 11:11 PM, Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) wrote: > >> Hi Greg, > >> > >> Thank you for directing the discussion to the technical nature of > >> isolation. Please find comments below: > >> > >> I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for > >> "dedicated" andis intended to apply to cases when transport slices > >> share underlying infrastructure. > >> > >> I agree about your description of isolation. Although there may be > >> other kinds of understanding which will broaden the scope of this > >> concept. I will leave it to the authors and WG. The discussions below > >> based on the assumption that “isolation is intended to apply to cases > >> when transport slices share underlying infrastructure ”. > >> > >> There is a number of performance metrics that may indicate the lack of > >> isolation but that, in my view, can be attributed to under-isolation > >> (for the lack of better term at the moment) between slices as the > >> result of root cause analysis of increased latency and/or packet loss. > >> > >> I think here hides some basic logic behind the debate: if the > >> isolation could be described indirectly by other SLO attribute, > >> whether we still need it as an independent concept. My answer is: the > >> hypothetical part of the question is incorrect, because *isolation > >> can’t be described by other attributes, although it influences other > >> attributes.* A further conclusion is that : *Deterioration of other > >> SLO metrics is neither sufficient nor necessary for isolation > >> absence*. Two simple examples to defense this: > >> > >> 1.When isolation is perfectly executed that there is no interfere > >> among different slices, the performance could still be very terrible > >> if the resource inside the slice is exhausted. > >> > >> 2.When there is no isolation among slices and all the resource is > >> shared, the performance could still be very great if the resource is > >> sufficient for all the slices. > >> > >> So the trick here is: other SLO attributes (delay, jitter, loss…) > >> depend on whether there is enough cake to make everybody happy, and > >> isolation prevents other guys to touch my cake. They're relevant, but > >> they're different, and not interchangeable. > >> > >> That is why I agree that isolation should be clearly defined in > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition, not in Appendix. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Xuesong > >> > >> *From:*Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com] > >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 30, 2020 5:38 AM > >> *To:* Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > > >> *Cc:* Jeff Tantsura >; TEAS WG > >> >; Jari Arkko >; Vishnu Pavan > >> Beeram > > >> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >> draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > >> > >> Hi Xuesong, > >> > >> I assume that the term "isolation" is not simply a replacement for > >> "dedicated" andis intended to apply to cases when transport slices > >> share underlying infrastructure. If that is the case,I think there's > >> a sort of contradiction between statements "isolation is SLO" and > >> "isolation is not directly measurable [calculable GIM]". I wonder, > >> What is the opposite of isolation as a TS characteristic? I imagine > >> that one example of that would be a case when the flow from one slice > >> is using resources from another, i.e., interference between slices. > >> There is a number of performance metrics that may indicate the lack of > >> isolation but that, in my view, can be attributed to under-isolation > >> (for the lack of better term at the moment) between slices as the > >> result of root cause analysis of increased latency and/or packet loss. > >> And even if interference from another slice doesn't result in > >> observable quality degradation, an operator can compare the offered > >> load from the customer with the availableBW. And that information > >> doesn't have to be measured by the client but reported by the operator > >> in the agreed intervals and aggregated on an hourlyand dailybasis. > >> Certainly, we can have more cases thatconstitute the un-isolationism > >> of slices but that, I suspect, still will be observable, measurable, > >> calculable through other SLOs and only the analysis will point to the inadequate isolationof resources. > >> > >> But back to the isolation. I believe that the proposal from WG Chairs > >> is the best way forward. Let us explore our interpretations of the > >> term and work on formulating one we can build consensus (rough) > >> around. And if so happens that there is none, then we all get a better > >> understanding of the problem and may get it in the new document. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 7:40 PM Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) > >> >> wrote: > >> > >>     +1 > >> > >>     And one more supplementary comment about “Isolation is not a > >>     directly measurable SLO”. Maybe here is some fog about what is > >>     measurable. Isolation could not described by number/value. But it > >>     doesn’t mean that it is an abstract concept that could not be > >>     defined precisely. People are asking whether TE link is isolated or > >>     not. It could be clarified by some deep analysis, good discussions > >>     and clear text. There is no conclusion yet just because we don’t > >>     even allow it to be existing in an WG document. And I don’t think > >>     the definition of other SDOs really matter. Because isolation in > >>     mobile network is different from isolation in IETF. If there is > >>     requirement in IETF, define it in IETF. We can’t say we could not > >>     get to somewhere because there is no path. Build the path by ourselves. > >> > >>     Xuesong > >> > >>     *From:*Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org > >>     ] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Tantsura > >>     *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 6:32 AM > >>     *To:* TEAS WG >>; Jari Arkko > >>     >> > >>     *Cc:* Vishnu Pavan Beeram >>     > > >>     *Subject:* Re: [Teas] WG adoption - > >>     draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix > >> > >>     I find Pavan and Lou proposal reasonable and a good/working way forward. > >>     While isolation is not a directly measurable SLO, it is often a > >>     legally binding requirement wrt service provided, could be expressed > >>     as a physical SRLG or disjointness. > >>     It is also a viable constrain to be used ina path computation logic. > >>     There are connectivity RFIs that explciteily require full physical > >>     separation/isolation - finance for security reasons,DCI for > >>     resiliency, etc. > >> > >>     We could pretend it doesn’t exist (which is the complete removal) or > >>     find an appropriate and acceptable to the WG description as the > >>     document evolves. > >> > >>     Cheers, > >> > >>     Jeff > >> > >>     On Aug 25, 2020, 12:59 PM -0700, Jari Arkko >>     >, wrote: > >> > >>         High-level bit: I would like to see the document adopted. With > >>         changes if needed. Let the WG decide. Design teams are there > >>         just for preparing proposals. Authority to do stuff is entirely > >>         in the WG now. > >> > >>         When it comes to the isolation topic, however, FWIW, I wanted to > >>         provide both a context from design team discussions and my > >>         personal perspective on this. > >> > >>         Design team discussions: > >> > >>         We’ve had variants of this discussion on almost all of the calls > >>         we’ve had for the last year. One one side there was our shared > >>         observation that industry uses the term isolation, and (perhaps > >>         less widely shared conclusion) that it is important to be able > >>         to relate to this. On the other side, there was our shared > >>         agreement that what matters from a requirement perspective is > >>         the bandwidth and other requirements, and that there are several > >>         techniques that can provide the desired characteristic of not > >>         having your neighbour affect the bandwidth the service provider > >>         has agreed to give you. > >> > >>         The text that we had was in an appendix precisely because we > >>         felt that the top-level SLOs should be the requirement and are > >>         sufficient by themselves. The appendix only attempts to say that > >> “there’s multiple ways to achieve this, and by the way, this > >>         term in the industry relates to our work in this indirect way”.. > >> > >>         I can appreciate that we may have failed in the task of writing > >>         that. Delete and move on, no biggie :-) > >> > >>         Personal perspective: > >> > >>         My impression of customer requirements and how they get > >>         represented matches with what Joel has been saying in this thread. > >> > >>         I’m fine removing the appendix. > >> > >>         If I had my way, I would write the document based entirely on > >>         the primary characteristics —such as that we promise you n > >>         GB/s. Then I would write a footnote or appendix somewhere that > >>         explains that this notion isolation has also been discussed > >>         elsewhere, and that it can be represented using the primary > >>         characteristics, and hence need not be discussed further in this > >>         document. One could perhaps also point out that there are > >>         multiple ways to implement the primary characteristics promises, > >>         so that those promises can be kept despite what’s happening with > >>         your neighbour’s traffic. And leave it at that. But I understand > >>         from this thread that people are reluctant to do that, and may > >>         even be reluctant to write anything about isolation. I’m fine > >>         with that, too. > >> > >>         Jari > >> > >>         _______________________________________________ > >>         Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > >> > >>     _______________________________________________ > >>     Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teas mailing list > >> Teas@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas > >> > From nobody Mon Aug 31 00:36:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548B53A1074 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 00:36:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R4-zLEq0LiJZ for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 00:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B1743A1077 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 00:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E2A8C4020EB2614F4ED7 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:36:28 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:36:27 +0100 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.98) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:36:24 +0800 Received: from dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) by dggeme752-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.76]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:36:24 +0800 From: "Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: TEAS WG Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption - draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition - Appendix Thread-Index: AQHWd0W3+JDJYLhK+kOyaOOFsSBeCalBXoEAgAADA4CAAFM2AIAAT4gAgAAsvYCAAboiAIAAE6QAgAMJYgCAAbe/gIAAKogAgADFS3CABXTZgIACcr1A//+CdICAAI2WQP//fWeAgAC+doA= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:36:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2265a594-f48f-3903-d998-3bb764df627a@joelhalpern.com> <3f563fbf4a3742a195e61d96844bd042@huawei.com> <77124c508ce54822a70afc616c31e5cf@att.com> <5765E489-B949-424B-8217-8049948AFD08@att.com> <089476000b484e4fbe6a8bc7dffbd93c@huawei.com> <9b07c75c-b43f-9fed-a190-d127f730c18b@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <9b07c75c-b43f-9fed-a190-d127f730c18b@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.242.209] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c92fd7313ffa471c9598f4469336e97fhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG 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7.15.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159887828613.14026.3720415362110772956@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 05:51:26 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] The TEAS WG has placed draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework in state "Candidate for WG Adoption" X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:51:26 -0000 The TEAS WG has placed draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework in state Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Lou Berger) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework/ Comment: IPR Poll Completed: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/S1MhlhS-7It6mifRjPDrlKsj4pw/ Jari Arkko https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/iFbXISrgJoh2G0M2FCHL5ajaKRE/ Dhruv Dhody https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/2u2nGHXxZARvyTxWsibqHcM28mI/ Rokui, Reza https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/cA8vHoAfeM_PN80TB9dr--SpjoQ/ Xufeng Liu https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/D-UfFoJCM65iMC7HZBEb21ikEQI/ Jie Dong https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/UeSozwQox7bZ0tEmZJqrWRw1qeQ/ Eric Gray https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/KaAJcKLzVIZqjGiUu3kBN96NMsw/ John E Drake https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/0h3pvgbhWtvxbGIMFRPver6QgiA/ From nobody Mon Aug 31 05:55:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA3A3A134C for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 05:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, 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X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=S6P3PrkP c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=DMaIoNfU3JbwoaCJWJYA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=xoEH_sTeL_Rfw54TyV31:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Cc:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Et3lOFrRrBeaqUNHXfvvGctj6ZgZNv0dmpuSAGB6cGY=; b=MkGTBPEr30AbfBu6bdeNNO5+k7 NyG88kxo3ZEFR0OIYPoaIBWRcWXlL3n5kWV4pB1mADaLLHye/yXAMk45/4eywFXKl0BchYRs596yh 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X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:59197 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] WG Adoption poll - draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:55:24 -0000 All, This is start of a *two* week poll on making draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework-04 a TEAS working group document. Please send email to the list indicating "yes/support" or "no/do not support". If indicating no, please state your reservations with the document. If yes, please also feel free to provide comments you'd like to see addressed once the document is a WG document. The poll ends September 14th. Thank you, Lou and Pavan From nobody Mon Aug 31 06:16:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FBF3A1373 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:16:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ipjzcwF8Wy_I for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE133A1375 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmgw10.unifiedlayer.com (unknown [10.9.0.10]) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B2C92AF1738 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:16:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id Cjfxk8gnrDlydCjfxkExGP; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:16:45 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=f91m+t6M c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=dLZJa+xiwSxG16/P+YVxDGlgEgI=:19 a=xqWC_Br6kY4A:10:nop_ipv6 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10:nop_charset_1 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10:nop_rcvd_month_year a=Vy_oeq2dmq0A:10:endurance_base64_authed_username_1 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=AEDFM0qtAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=1OgDWpaR0EyxrKTmQFsA:9 a=Y7jpg6tgkngkl1iY:21 a=4DfkP9aOm6SCt7s6:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10:nop_charset_2 a=-RoEEKskQ1sA:10:nop_election2020_name_body a=Yz9wTY_ffGCQnEDHKrcv:22 a=NCq4FBG6EvGFEERSFaZp:22 a=w1C3t2QeGrPiZgrLijVG:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=sBQxK3FOWPiW+GHhRIz/1ceaeU3iqjCVHCyDQX+lyyQ=; b=vOCRxEgLOv2949XMM3K/d23xfo Swq0rougqqZ7CD9tFaa7fZBw02bNlETY4tKhFY7N2unud2ri95bEr0tX2qahvBUGRKXdSPMc49+Oq VbILJG059x3YOo21c1zXKjqG4; Received: from [127.0.0.1] (port=21421 helo=[IPv6:::1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kCjfx-001jfc-2K; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 07:16:45 -0600 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, teas@ietf.org Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' References: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> <007101d67e48$4a8edcb0$dfac9610$@olddog.co.uk> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: <6fee8011-957d-398e-3bbc-9891ca3b446f@labn.net> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 09:16:41 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <007101d67e48$4a8edcb0$dfac9610$@olddog.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1kCjfx-001jfc-2K X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:21421 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:16:48 -0000 Hi Adrian,     As a general principle, I believe that if there is a suitable WG document for text sent to the list or contributed via an individual draft that such text should be incorporated into the WG document. In this case, since we had/have ACTN applicability statements in both the draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn and the draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework.  While the latter is not yet a WG document, the intent to issue an adoption call has been stated for a while.  (Extended IPR call completed last week, and adoption call just issued.) So, I think it is reasonable to ask (a) what additional information is provided in draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and (b) can this additional information be reasonable incorporated into those documents. WRT to your specific questions: > - Is there a substantive difference between VPN+ and network slicing? My reading of the current documents is that the network slicing allows for different specific technology solutions.  In other words, network slicing *can* be implemented by VPN+, but can also be implemented using other solutions.  This is basically the same difference as exists between *what* is being done (i.e., network slicing), versus *how* it's being done (e.g., VPN+). > - Do we want to describe how to use ACTN for network slicing? Given the inclusion of section 4 in the framework document, I'd say yes.  Also with the adoption call open, I think this is a great time for the authors of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing to voice that additional text  should be added to the framework document (with proper attribution). Thank you for the discussion and usual good work on draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. Lou On 8/29/2020 5:06 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Just to be clear, text was not removed from draft-ietf-enhanced-vpn and moved to draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. > > draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing pre-dates the enhanced VPN work and only lapsed when the enhanced VPN draft was brought to TEAS from RTGWG, and some (a lot?) of the same material was brought into the enhanced VPN draft. > > But I think you bring out three good points for discussion: > > 1. Is enhanced VPN sufficiently equivalent to network slicing to mean that discussing "realisation of VPN+ using ACTN" is a duplication of discussing "applicability of ACTN to network slicing"? My opinion is that when viewed at the service level, VPN+ and network slicing are very, very similar. However, despite having the enhanced VPN framework that described network slicing, the working group decided it wanted a network slicing design team. That team has not come back with a statement that the two concepts are very similar and has, in fact, produced its own framework for slicing that might (or might not) overlap with a current working group draft. > > 2. Should draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-VPN go in to details on technologies that can deliver VPN+ or should it focus on describing the function and architecture that is an enhanced VPN? The current section 5 ("Candidate Technologies") gives a very brief description of the different network and management technologies that could be used, and highlights areas for future work, but it does not dig deep into solutions. Indeed, there are a number of related solutions drafts in other working groups (LSR, BESS, SPRING,...) that set out more detailed solutions work. In that respect, the old sections 5.6.1 and 5.6.2 were overly detailed compared to the rest of section 5, and removing text seems to have been a reasonable thing to do. > > 3. How many is too many Informational documents? While the various VPN+ solutions drafts in other WGs are marked as Standards Track, it is a strangeness of where we are with ACTN that there is already and architecture and there are already YANG models (done or being worked on) that address all of the protocol needs. All that a document requires to do is show which of those models to use where and when in order to enable support for network slicing using ACTN, and that makes the document Informational. Once upon a time it was quite popular to write "cookbook" style Informational RFCs that helped people work out how to pull together bits of technology and build systems. > > Depending on the discussion of these three questions we could: > a. Pull material from draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing into draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn and abandon draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing > b. Adopt draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and publish both it and draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn > c. Abandon the work of the network slicing design team folding new text into draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn > d. Adopt and publish lots of documents > e. Any combination of the above > > I think it is reasonable to ask the WG: > - Is there a substantive difference between VPN+ and network slicing? > - Do we want to describe how to use ACTN for network slicing? > > I don't think it is reasonable to ask the WG: > - What documents do you want to publish to achieve all of this? > This is my belief because the WG is focused on technology not the niceties of publication. Actually, you either have to take the documents that people are working on, or you (as chairs) have to tell us what documents we should be working on (to which me might, of course, object :-) > > Lots of fun? > > Best, > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger > Sent: 29 August 2020 19:56 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing > > Hi Adrian, > > On 8/28/2020 6:26 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> ... >> >> Looking forward to your thoughts on this. > As we (chairs) mentioned to you off-list, before we can talk about > adoption of this document we still have the issue of working through the > discussion at the last meeting. Specifically the text that was removed > from the WG document ( draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn) that is largely > present in this document. My question is: assuming the text in is > restored from draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn-05, are there one or more > suitable existing (or candidate) WG documents that could be a home for > the remaining valuable text that is currently in > applicability-actn-slicing document? -- after all how many information > documents do we really need on this topic.... > > I think this is a question not only for you and your coauthors, but also > for the WG as a whole. > > Cheers, > > Lou > >> Best, >> Adrian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> > From nobody Mon Aug 31 06:40:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765FA3A138C for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 06:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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(vs1.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.121]) by mta6.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07VEpqJR017583; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:51:52 +0100 Received: from vs1.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8112203A; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:51:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs1.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9887C2203B; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:51:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V ([84.51.134.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 07VEpphZ002856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:51:52 +0100 Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "'Lou Berger'" , Cc: "'TEAS WG Chairs'" References: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> <007101d67e48$4a8edcb0$dfac9610$@olddog.co.uk> <6fee8011-957d-398e-3bbc-9891ca3b446f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <6fee8011-957d-398e-3bbc-9891ca3b446f@labn.net> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:51:52 +0100 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <022d01d67fa6$43eccf20$cbc66d60$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH8yyqMLj2FV5vO4hw7YvnJLKd3IgFWxy9RAi/iwFQB/iciDKjZey9A Content-Language: en-gb X-Originating-IP: 84.51.134.114 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25636.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--22.067-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--22.067-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25636.007 X-TMASE-Result: 10--22.067200-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: 8HTFlOrbAtHxIbpQ8BhdbPVY7U3NX8JgPXu1L28jSnEG2HMvWEJenk12 MsUfZOu5G+OAW1MxENzXq+XdmgGBLe2LcjC1Kb4rWWWKbgcV5YCQBbTqDF++CiNGK7UC7ElMmT1 2TBRbdBGCIWai4JmjoURxWn0GYv0XNJG9zMtTvfv5TWyhseEO1AZyESFXAljfpjfLp08U3/Vnhi 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group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:51:58 -0000 Thanks Lou, I have yet to review draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework and that may help = answer some of this. A quick scan shows that that draft dedicates just = over two pages to the topic of ACTN where = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing has about 14 pages of text. = So there is certainly some additional material that could find a home = somewhere (or be deleted). That certainly fits with your questions (a) = and (b), with the alternative being to strip text from = draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework leaving a pointer. More on that, I suppose, when I review draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework. But = if the result is us asking to include a further 10 pages on ACTN in the = slicing framework, I hope you'd agree that that would unbalance that = document. In that case, it might be more reasonable to have separate = documents. You say: > This is basically the same difference as exists between *what* > is being done (i.e., network slicing), versus *how* it's being > done (e.g., VPN+). This is not my reading of VPN+ from the framework document, but I'd = agree that there is some ambiguity. This is the same ambiguity that = arises in a lot of the network slicing discussion (I am currently = finding it in draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition which I am = reviewing for the WG adoption poll). The problem is common in the IETF: = we are not good as separating discussions of a service with the details = of how a service is delivered.=20 We saw this quite a bit in the L3SM and L2SM discussions where there = were repeated pushes to include features that would have been controls = on how the network delivered the service rather than on what behavior = the client wanted to see. With VPNs, part of the problem is that we have always focused more on = the protocol means of delivering the service (for example, BGP/MPLS) = when we have spoken about "VPNs". Thus, it is "only natural" to hear = "enhanced VPN" and think it must be a discussion about how a network = enhances its protocol mechanisms to deliver an enhanced service. But, in = my opinion, the VPN+ framework is more focussed on the additional = service parameters that can be requested (pages 3-18 on overview, = requirements, and architecture) and only provides pointers to the = "candidate technologies" (pages 19-29).=20 With network slicing there appears to be a tension between discussions = of what a slice is and how it is used, versus ways of delivering network = slicing.=20 In both places, the tension causes confusion in discussion, allows = particular technology solutions to be pushed to prominence in advance of = proper consideration of the alternatives, and results in the sort of = discussion we are having. There are a number of protocol drafts describing how to deliver enhanced = VPNs: - draft-dong-6man-enhanced-vpn-vtn-id - draft-dong-idr-bgpls-sr-enhanced-vpn - draft-dong-lsr-sr-enhanced-vpn - draft-dong-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn - draft-drake-bess-enhanced-vpn - draft-zhuang-bess-enhanced-vpn-auto-discovery Just as new work will be developed to enable delivery of enhanced VPN, I = expect new work will describe how to deliver network slices.=20 But I think it is very important to keep the solutions material out of = the requirements/framework documents. That's what = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing is trying to do for network = slicing. Now back to reviewing draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition Best, Adrian -----Original Message----- From: Lou Berger =20 Sent: 31 August 2020 14:17 To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing Hi Adrian, As a general principle, I believe that if there is a suitable WG=20 document for text sent to the list or contributed via an individual=20 draft that such text should be incorporated into the WG document. In this case, since we had/have ACTN applicability statements in both=20 the draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn and the draft-nsdt-teas-ns-framework. =20 While the latter is not yet a WG document, the intent to issue an=20 adoption call has been stated for a while. (Extended IPR call completed = last week, and adoption call just issued.) So, I think it is reasonable to ask (a) what additional information is=20 provided in draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and (b) can this=20 additional information be reasonable incorporated into those documents. WRT to your specific questions: > - Is there a substantive difference between VPN+ and network slicing? My reading of the current documents is that the network slicing allows=20 for different specific technology solutions. In other words, network=20 slicing *can* be implemented by VPN+, but can also be implemented using=20 other solutions. This is basically the same difference as exists=20 between *what* is being done (i.e., network slicing), versus *how* it's=20 being done (e.g., VPN+). > - Do we want to describe how to use ACTN for network slicing? Given the inclusion of section 4 in the framework document, I'd say=20 yes. Also with the adoption call open, I think this is a great time for = the authors of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing to voice that=20 additional text should be added to the framework document (with proper=20 attribution). Thank you for the discussion and usual good work on=20 draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. Lou On 8/29/2020 5:06 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Just to be clear, text was not removed from draft-ietf-enhanced-vpn = and moved to draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing. > > draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing pre-dates the enhanced VPN = work and only lapsed when the enhanced VPN draft was brought to TEAS = from RTGWG, and some (a lot?) of the same material was brought into the = enhanced VPN draft. > > But I think you bring out three good points for discussion: > > 1. Is enhanced VPN sufficiently equivalent to network slicing to mean = that discussing "realisation of VPN+ using ACTN" is a duplication of = discussing "applicability of ACTN to network slicing"? My opinion is = that when viewed at the service level, VPN+ and network slicing are = very, very similar. However, despite having the enhanced VPN framework = that described network slicing, the working group decided it wanted a = network slicing design team. That team has not come back with a = statement that the two concepts are very similar and has, in fact, = produced its own framework for slicing that might (or might not) overlap = with a current working group draft. > > 2. Should draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-VPN go in to details on = technologies that can deliver VPN+ or should it focus on describing the = function and architecture that is an enhanced VPN? The current section 5 = ("Candidate Technologies") gives a very brief description of the = different network and management technologies that could be used, and = highlights areas for future work, but it does not dig deep into = solutions. Indeed, there are a number of related solutions drafts in = other working groups (LSR, BESS, SPRING,...) that set out more detailed = solutions work. In that respect, the old sections 5.6.1 and 5.6.2 were = overly detailed compared to the rest of section 5, and removing text = seems to have been a reasonable thing to do. > =20 > 3. How many is too many Informational documents? While the various = VPN+ solutions drafts in other WGs are marked as Standards Track, it is = a strangeness of where we are with ACTN that there is already and = architecture and there are already YANG models (done or being worked on) = that address all of the protocol needs. All that a document requires to = do is show which of those models to use where and when in order to = enable support for network slicing using ACTN, and that makes the = document Informational. Once upon a time it was quite popular to write = "cookbook" style Informational RFCs that helped people work out how to = pull together bits of technology and build systems. > > Depending on the discussion of these three questions we could: > a. Pull material from draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing into = draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn and abandon = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing > b. Adopt draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing and publish both = it and draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn > c. Abandon the work of the network slicing design team folding new = text into draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn > d. Adopt and publish lots of documents > e. Any combination of the above > > I think it is reasonable to ask the WG: > - Is there a substantive difference between VPN+ and network slicing? > - Do we want to describe how to use ACTN for network slicing? > > I don't think it is reasonable to ask the WG: > - What documents do you want to publish to achieve all of this? > This is my belief because the WG is focused on technology not the = niceties of publication. Actually, you either have to take the documents = that people are working on, or you (as chairs) have to tell us what = documents we should be working on (to which me might, of course, object = :-) > > Lots of fun? > > Best, > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lou Berger > Sent: 29 August 2020 19:56 > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; teas@ietf.org > Cc: 'TEAS WG Chairs' > Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of = draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing > > Hi Adrian, > > On 8/28/2020 6:26 PM, Adrian Farrel wrote: >> ... >> >> Looking forward to your thoughts on this. > As we (chairs) mentioned to you off-list, before we can talk = about > adoption of this document we still have the issue of working through = the > discussion at the last meeting. Specifically the text that was = removed > from the WG document ( draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn) that is largely > present in this document. My question is: assuming the text in is > restored from draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn-05, are there one or more > suitable existing (or candidate) WG documents that could be a home for > the remaining valuable text that is currently in > applicability-actn-slicing document? -- after all how many information > documents do we really need on this topic.... > > I think this is a question not only for you and your coauthors, but = also > for the WG as a whole. > > Cheers, > > Lou > >> Best, >> Adrian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teas mailing list >> Teas@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >> > From nobody Mon Aug 31 08:50:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844193A16B9; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:50:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U6hDDxWLSwX5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E87793A16B7; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5A6BD38E346B8C2856AA; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:49:58 +0100 (IST) Received: from dggeme703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.99) by lhreml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.63) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:49:57 +0100 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com (10.3.19.100) by dggeme703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.99) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:49:55 +0800 Received: from dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) by dggeme754-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.6.80.77]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:49:55 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: Lou Berger , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "teas@ietf.org" CC: 'TEAS WG Chairs' Thread-Topic: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing Thread-Index: AdZ9h3Zl6le4l7CpS4GedKhoPGFAhgAa3WqAAAST+gAAVCs6gAAUe8GQ Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:49:55 +0000 Message-ID: <7a0dc0b653d24ae38f1f759e87b6c07d@huawei.com> References: <05b401d67d8a$4ddf5890$e99e09b0$@olddog.co.uk> <96590677-a8e2-b8f3-8a03-6a8cb7e54d5f@labn.net> <007101d67e48$4a8edcb0$dfac9610$@olddog.co.uk> <6fee8011-957d-398e-3bbc-9891ca3b446f@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <6fee8011-957d-398e-3bbc-9891ca3b446f@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.220.168] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teas] WG adoption of draft-king-teas-applicability-actn-slicing X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:50:03 -0000 SGkgTG91IGFuZCBBZHJpYW4sIA0KDQpTb3JyeSB0byBjaGltZSBpbiwgaGVyZSBJJ2QgbGlrZSB0 byBwcm92aWRlIHNvbWUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgdGhlIHJlbW92YWwgb2YgdGhlIEFDVE4g YXBwbGljYWJpbGl0eSB0ZXh0IGZyb20gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10ZWFzLWVuaGFuY2VkLXZwbi0wNi4g 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ZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3RlYXMNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 31 12:25:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teas@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D4943A18F9; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:25:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m-um9KcUSYO5; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 12:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 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(8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 07VJLvDC001971; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:37 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0083689.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 337u89vphp-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:37 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 07VJPaNw006102; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:37 -0400 Received: from zlp30485.vci.att.com (zlp30485.vci.att.com [135.47.91.178]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 07VJPWxK006011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:32 -0400 Received: from zlp30485.vci.att.com (zlp30485.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30485.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 4168F400B57A; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:25:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DC.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [135.50.89.116]) by zlp30485.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 2C3EF400B577; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:25:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com (135.50.89.118) by GAALPA1MSGEX1DC.ITServices.sbc.com (135.50.89.116) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2044.4; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:30 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com ([135.50.89.118]) by GAALPA1MSGEX1DE.ITServices.sbc.com ([135.50.89.118]) with mapi id 15.01.2044.004; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:25:30 -0400 From: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" To: TEAS WG CC: "teas-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Informational documents - how many do we need? Thread-Index: AdZ/xlIRM92w7qdDT9GEI8S6RkVkwg== Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:25:30 +0000 Message-ID: <05121c09b43f4ce39ad9630d291e7fbf@att.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.181.101] x-tm-snts-smtp: D94B6400F15D573BFFA1CFF76A96546ABF34D73F2BDCA2A8C1319831D50D85132 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_05121c09b43f4ce39ad9630d291e7fbfattcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.235, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-08-31_09:2020-08-31, 2020-08-31 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2008310113 Archived-At: Subject: [Teas] Informational documents - how many do we need? X-BeenThere: teas@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 19:25:40 -0000 --_000_05121c09b43f4ce39ad9630d291e7fbfattcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi TEAS, On Lou's: " -- after all how many information documents do we really need on this top= ic...." I wanted to remind everyone on this IESG statement: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/support-documents/ It discusses problem statements, use cases and requirements documents as of= ten delaying solution work. The guidance is to consider alternative mechani= sms instead of publishing as an RFC. In recent charters, there are clear st= atements on not publishing (e.g. RAW). One approach is to include such material as an appendix in solution documen= ts. Or combined for one comprehensive informational document. On draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition, TEAS has not updated their m= ilestones, so I'm not sure the intention. I have not seen any group publish= a stand-alone definition document. Definitions are usually in a framework = document. My recommendation is if this document is adopted, it should be used as a "s= cratch pad" for the discussion, but then combined with the framework docume= nt and other documents (e.g. Information model/contereras-teas-slice-nbi). = Most important, do not let these informational documents delay solution wor= k. Deborah (speaking as AD) --_000_05121c09b43f4ce39ad9630d291e7fbfattcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi TEAS,

 

On Lou’s:

“ -- after all how many information documen= ts do we really need on this topic....”

 

I wanted to remind everyone on this IESG statemen= t:

https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/stat= ements/support-documents/

 

It discusses problem statements, use cases and re= quirements documents as often delaying solution work. The guidance is to co= nsider alternative mechanisms instead of publishing as an RFC. In recent ch= arters, there are clear statements on not publishing (e.g. RAW).

 

One approach is to include such material as an ap= pendix in solution documents. Or combined for one comprehensive information= al document.

 

On draft-nsdt-teas-transport-slice-definition, TE= AS has not updated their milestones, so I’m not sure the intention. I= have not seen any group publish a stand-alone definition document. Definit= ions are usually in a framework document.

 

My recommendation is if this document is adopted,= it should be used as a “scratch pad” for the discussion, but t= hen combined with the framework document and other documents (e.g. Informat= ion model/contereras-teas-slice-nbi). Most important, do not let these informational documents delay solution work.

 

Deborah

(speaking as AD)

 

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