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Mon, 2 Apr 2018 17:58:53 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:58:52 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 13:58:52 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Minutes posted Thread-Index: AQHTyqxCo5HOMetws0+wL4ltjaESoQ== Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 17:58:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.209.15] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C2E628534A6047CAA094E9CB80E999B7ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Minutes posted X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 17:58:57 -0000 --_000_C2E628534A6047CAA094E9CB80E999B7ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 2 Apr 2018 18:07:33 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 14:07:32 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 14:07:32 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7Q== Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 18:07:32 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.209.15] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E3320980A44F4429A25516E17EB572FDciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 18:07:36 -0000 --_000_E3320980A44F4429A25516E17EB572FDciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 2 Apr 2018 14:05:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Kitterman To: teep@ietf.org Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 15:05:21 -0400 Message-ID: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.3 (Linux/3.13.0-139-generic; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 19:05:28 -0000 On Monday, April 02, 2018 06:07:32 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: > All, > > There was strong interest and consensus at the TEEP f2f IETF 101 meeting in > London for adopting > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pei-opentrustprotocol/ as a draft > protocol. > This is a call for adoption as a working group draft . If you have any > concerns or objections please respond by April 16th. > > Warm regards, Nancy I've reviewed the document. It's clear that a lot of effort has gone into it and I think it's generally a good basis for a working group draft, but (you knew that was coming, right?): If I am reading the document correctly, it seems to exclude device owners from managing the security of their own devices and I think that's problematic. The core of the issue is embedded in the definition of a trusted execution environment (Page 6, TEE definition): > ... Assuance that only authorized code can run in the TEE ... The question is authorized by who? The draft as it exists constrains this to trust roots installed during manufacturing: > 12.3. Attestation Hierarchy > > The attestation hierarchy and seed required for TAM protocol > operation must be built into the device at manufacture. Additional > TEEs can be added post-manufacture using the scheme proposed, but it > is outside of the current scope of this document to detail that. While it doesn't preclude adoption of the document as a starting point for the working group, I believe this scope limitation needs to be corrected. Ultimately the owner of the device needs to be able to manage their trust hierarchy. Even if most users will be content to leave this to the manufacturer/OEM, it should be possible to opt-out of the vendor supplied trust system if local policy requires it. Scott K From nobody Mon Apr 2 12:09:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90FD1267BB for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 12:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C-mVv5zkSclt for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM01-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam01on0128.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.32.128]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9775E1241F8 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 12:09:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=w3rCRG9KwK1HoTpbMo21YEA4XWyFvaMh0EpbDVteU6E=; b=WpfhNMEe1PJLuuXlYRYPGHza8H7ngFGNfAWaySN0AbotKquJMWnsavhCv+TJ50ScZff17NcxP3HlJlFM2aYhhBJoWdOCvSrA2eo1IwPwyqPWFlsEhKtc/4OCHPLjaopBd8mbJRPCOd0WiQfg2/kJrsQBUux6nee0WLurD6/D7SA= Received: from CY4PR21MB0774.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.192.20) by CY4PR21MB0469.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.172.121.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.675.1; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 19:09:04 +0000 Received: from CY4PR21MB0774.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::41f5:f274:8793:f7b1]) by CY4PR21MB0774.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::41f5:f274:8793:f7b1%8]) with mapi id 15.20.0675.002; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 19:09:04 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Scott Kitterman , "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPt1byAgAAAUNA= Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 19:09:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> In-Reply-To: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; 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boundary="_000_CY4PR21MB07745677B655D23A5F2447D3A3A60CY4PR21MB0774namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c1a2d4e1-7cdf-435a-fd78-08d598cd33d5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Apr 2018 19:09:04.6431 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR21MB0469 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2018 19:09:11 -0000 --_000_CY4PR21MB07745677B655D23A5F2447D3A3A60CY4PR21MB0774namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: TEEP On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:05 PM To: teep@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption On Monday, April 02, 2018 06:07:32 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: > All, > > There was strong interest and consensus at the TEEP f2f IETF 101 > meeting in London for adopting > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat > racker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-pei-opentrustprotocol%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cd= thaler%40microsoft.com%7C69eddba8d40b440c7ff308d598ccb4d2%7C72f988bf86f141a= f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636582927334097740&sdata=3DNYiK5Ftle9jw4OpcEMGk= SLZMuc76WJACW5%2BlMUEb9xA%3D&reserved=3D0 as a draft protocol. > This is a call for adoption as a working group draft . If you have > any concerns or objections please respond by April 16th. > > Warm regards, Nancy I've reviewed the document. It's clear that a lot of effort has gone into = it and I think it's generally a good basis for a working group draft, but (= you knew that was coming, right?): If I am reading the document correctly, it seems to exclude device owners f= rom managing the security of their own devices and I think that's problemat= ic. The core of the issue is embedded in the definition of a trusted execution = environment (Page 6, TEE definition): > ... Assuance that only authorized code can run in the TEE ... The question is authorized by who? The draft as it exists constrains this = to trust roots installed during manufacturing: > 12.3. Attestation Hierarchy > > The attestation hierarchy and seed required for TAM protocol > operation must be built into the device at manufacture. Additional > TEEs can be added post-manufacture using the scheme proposed, but it > is outside of the current scope of this document to detail that. While it doesn't preclude adoption of the document as a starting point for = the working group, I believe this scope limitation needs to be corrected. Ultimately the owner of the device needs to be able to manage their trust h= ierarchy. Even if most users will be content to leave this to the manufact= urer/OEM, it should be possible to opt-out of the vendor supplied trust sys= tem if local policy requires it. As an individual (not as chair), I strongly agree with you. There are dif= ferent use cases we walked through at IETF and the protocol ought to be usa= ble in various use cases, and some use cases indeed have the TAM run by the= device owner not the manufacturer. Dave Scott K _______________________________________________ TEEP mailing list TEEP@ietf.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf= .org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7= C69eddba8d40b440c7ff308d598ccb4d2%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C= 0%7C636582927334097740&sdata=3Dn3i55Ie7zo2P7A%2F9fy3gY1VUxAVWQSSdXLAsbj7otr= A%3D&reserved=3D0 --_000_CY4PR21MB07745677B655D23A5F2447D3A3A60CY4PR21MB0774namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Original Message-= ----
From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2018 12:05 PM
To: teep@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption

 

On Monday, April 02, 2= 018 06:07:32 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote:

> All,

>

> There was strong = interest and consensus at the TEEP f2f IETF 101

> meeting in London= for adopting

> https://na01.safelink= s.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat

> racker.ietf.org%2= Fdoc%2Fdraft-pei-opentrustprotocol%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micros= oft.com%7C69eddba8d40b440c7ff308d598ccb4d2%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db= 47%7C1%7C0%7C636582927334097740&sdata=3DNYiK5Ftle9jw4OpcEMGkSLZMuc76WJA= CW5%2BlMUEb9xA%3D&reserved=3D0  as a draft protocol.

> This is a call fo= r adoption as a working group draft .  If you have

> any concerns or o= bjections please respond by April 16th.

>

> Warm regards, Nan= cy

 

I've reviewed the docu= ment.  It's clear that a lot of effort has gone into it and I think it= 's generally a good basis for a working group draft, but (you knew that was= coming, right?):

 

If I am reading the do= cument correctly, it seems to exclude device owners from managing the secur= ity of their own devices and I think that's problematic.

 

The core of the issue = is embedded in the definition of a trusted execution environment (Page 6, T= EE definition):

 

> ... Assuance that= only authorized code can run in the TEE ...

 

The question is author= ized by who?  The draft as it exists constrains this to trust roots in= stalled during manufacturing:

 

> 12.3.  Attes= tation Hierarchy

>

>   = The attestation hierarchy and seed required for TAM protocol

>   = operation must be built into the device at manufacture.  Additional

>   = TEEs can be added post-manufacture using the scheme proposed, but it<= /o:p>

>   = is outside of the current scope of this document to detail that.

 

While it doesn't precl= ude adoption of the document as a starting point for the working group, I b= elieve this scope limitation needs to be corrected. 

Ultimately the owner o= f the device needs to be able to manage their trust hierarchy.  Even i= f most users will be content to leave this to the manufacturer/OEM, it shou= ld be possible to opt-out of the vendor supplied trust system if local policy requires it.

 

As an individual (not= as chair), I strongly agree with you.   There are different use = cases we walked through at IETF and the protocol ought to be usable in vari= ous use cases, and some use cases indeed have the TAM run by the device owner not the manufacturer.

 

Dave

 

Scott K

 

______________________= _________________________

TEEP mailing list=

TEEP@ietf.= org

h= ttps://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.= org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.co= m%7C69eddba8d40b440c7ff308d598ccb4d2%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1= %7C0%7C636582927334097740&sdata=3Dn3i55Ie7zo2P7A%2F9fy3gY1VUxAVWQSSdXLA= sbj7otrA%3D&reserved=3D0

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([10.251.127.41]) by ironmsg01-ams.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 02 Apr 2018 23:20:55 +0200 Received: from euamsexm01a.eu.qualcomm.com (10.251.127.40) by euamsexm01b.eu.qualcomm.com (10.251.127.41) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 23:20:52 +0200 Received: from euamsexm01a.eu.qualcomm.com ([10.251.127.40]) by euamsexm01a.eu.qualcomm.com ([10.251.127.40]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Mon, 2 Apr 2018 23:20:52 +0200 From: Jeremy O'Donoghue To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" CC: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPt2hIA Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2018 21:20:52 +0000 Message-ID: <41E8BEAD-D0C9-4076-828D-26BA22CC7AE7@qti.qualcomm.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: 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18:15:52 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 18:15:52 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: Scott Kitterman , "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPuGMuAgATsOIA= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:15:51 +0000 Message-ID: <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> In-Reply-To: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.125.134] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org 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=?us-ascii?q?YixCFPm+MPYEXAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.48,412,1517875200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="94277461" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Apr 2018 22:41:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (xch-rtp-014.cisco.com [64.101.220.154]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w35MfCGS030895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:41:12 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 18:41:12 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 18:41:11 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" CC: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPt2hIAgAUyBYA= Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 22:41:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41E8BEAD-D0C9-4076-828D-26BA22CC7AE7@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <41E8BEAD-D0C9-4076-828D-26BA22CC7AE7@qti.qualcomm.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.125.134] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BDFF471AA6124EE28A0B2C89C2052E8Dciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 22:41:18 -0000 --_000_BDFF471AA6124EE28A0B2C89C2052E8Dciscocom_ Content-Type: 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L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_BDFF471AA6124EE28A0B2C89C2052E8Dciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Apr 5 17:51:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4575A1241FC for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 17:51:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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(static-72-81-252-22.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DA21C4021D for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2018 13:21:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Kitterman To: "teep@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 14:21:25 -0400 Message-ID: <1904293.2RKKe4SOYX@kitterma-e6430> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.3 (Linux/3.13.0-143-generic; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 18:21:30 -0000 I went back and looked at the WG charter, and it says this about WG=20 deliverables: > .. The first document is on architecture, describing the involved ent= ities, > their relationships, assumptions, the keying framework, and relevant = use > cases. Second, a solution document that includes the above-described > functionality in a protocol will be developed. ... On the data tracker, I see an expired draft, draft-liu-opentrustprotoco= l- usecase-01, that (at least based on the title, I confess I didn't read = it yet)=20 seems to relate to the first WG deliverable. I think that once the first document was done, I would be much more=20 comfortable with a draft like this one that addresses a subset of the=20= documented use cases. I believe there is a technical risk associated w= ith not=20 doing the first thing first. The security model of this draft appears to me to be inherently tied to= the=20 idea of baking specific keys into a system during the manufacturing pro= cess. =20 For this use case, I can understand that approach, but that seems unlik= ely to=20 be sufficient for end-user organizations to assert control, since, by=20= definition, such keys would be outside their trust boundary. Without an overall keying framework and use cases from the first docume= nt, I=20 don't see how the WG can move forward with this solution without excess= ive=20 risk that it will have to be completely reworked once an framework for = all use=20 cases is developed. I guess that's a long no. I think the WG ought to do what the charter = says is=20 the first document first. Scott K On Thursday, April 05, 2018 10:15:51 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: > Hi Scott, >=20 > Thanks for that feedback=E2=80=A6.and yes, the notion is to get a bas= e document that > we can use as a starting point to build upon and ensure that the use = cases > of interest are addressed. =20 > Your points are well taken and we put them as items that need to be > addressed if you are OK moving forward with this draft as the startin= g > point. =20 > Best, Nancy >=20 > On 4/2/18, 12:05 PM, "TEEP on behalf of Scott Kitterman" > wrote: =20 > On Monday, April 02, 2018 06:07:32 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: >=20 > > All, > >=20 > > There was strong interest and consensus at the TEEP f2f IETF 10= 1 > > meeting in London for adopting > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pei-opentrustprotocol/ = as a > > draft > > protocol.=20 > > This is a call for adoption as a working group draft . If you = have > > any > > concerns or objections please respond by April 16th. > >=20 > > Warm regards, Nancy >=20 > =20 > I've reviewed the document. It's clear that a lot of effort has = gone > into it=20 and I think it's generally a good basis for a working group > draft, but (you knew that was coming, right?): > =20 > If I am reading the document correctly, it seems to exclude devic= e > owners from=20 managing the security of their own devices and I think that's > problematic.=20 > The core of the issue is embedded in the definition of a trusted > execution=20 environment (Page 6, TEE definition): > =20 >=20 > > ... Assuance that only authorized code can run in the TEE ... >=20 > =20 > The question is authorized by who? The draft as it exists constr= ains > this to=20 trust roots installed during manufacturing: > =20 >=20 > > 12.3. Attestation Hierarchy > >=20 > >=20 > > The attestation hierarchy and seed required for TAM protocol= > > operation must be built into the device at manufacture.=20 > > Additional > > TEEs can be added post-manufacture using the scheme proposed= , but > > it > > is outside of the current scope of this document to detail t= hat. >=20 > =20 > While it doesn't preclude adoption of the document as a starting = point > for the=20 working group, I believe this scope limitation needs to be > corrected. Ultimately the owner of the device needs to be able to man= age > their trust hierarchy. Even if most users will be content to leave t= his to > the manufacturer/OEM, it should be possible to opt-out of the vendor > supplied trust system if local policy requires it. > =20 > Scott K > =20 > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep From nobody Mon Apr 9 15:18:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B79712D86B for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 15:18:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, 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w39MIFsw005216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:18:15 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:18:15 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:18:15 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: Scott Kitterman , "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPuGMuAgATsOICAAVDVgIAEg9UA Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:18:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7D7DB0DB-3023-40FF-9E17-4228B1E84CDC@cisco.com> References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> <1904293.2RKKe4SOYX@kitterma-e6430> In-Reply-To: <1904293.2RKKe4SOYX@kitterma-e6430> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:18:18 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-014.cisco.com (64.101.220.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:18:18 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:18:17 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: Mingliang Pei , "Jeremy O'Donoghue" CC: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXT] Re: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPt2hIAgAVc9QCABaKpgA== Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:18:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <41E8BEAD-D0C9-4076-828D-26BA22CC7AE7@qti.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.84.48] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FC6AB1C500054064A1AC1C940D7ED52Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] [EXT] Re: Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 22:18:23 -0000 --_000_FC6AB1C500054064A1AC1C940D7ED52Bciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgSmVyZW15IGFuZCBNaW5nLA0KDQpGcm9tIHdoYXQgSSByZWFkLCBJIGRvbuKAmXQgc2VlIHN0 cm9uZyBhcmd1bWVudCBhZ2FpbnN0IGFkb3B0aW9uLiAgUmF0aGVyLCBhcyBhbiBpdGVtIHRvIGFk ZHJlc3MgaW4gYW4gYWRvcHRlZCB3ZyBkcmFmdCAoYXMgdGhpcyBvbmUpLCB3ZSBtdXN0IGJlIGNs ZWFyIGluIHRlcm1pbm9sb2d5IGFuZCBpbnRlbnQgZXNwZWNpYWxseSBhcyB3ZSBkZWZpbmUgdGhl IHJvbGUgb2YgdGhlIOKAnFNE4oCdIGFuZCBpdHMgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlw4oCmLi5hbHRob3VnaCwg 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scLc/ONSGMuy9jdL5pJtvxatKZpO0bCqJLumIxi7GBBVwtxLdi1q0FBShh KR8K6mn+8mMcrt/7erzcBNVlZe1G3CF38ZBK9cjE2pRzv2P1WFro04KApQ xx8RbdvS/ergirRQy66BW9QyriRZHL5VXUPQd/U3EsW1QWd+uGRi7w== Received: from [192.168.1.146] (static-72-81-252-22.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net [72.81.252.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout03.controlledmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C50B7C40169; Mon, 9 Apr 2018 18:11:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:11:01 +0000 In-Reply-To: <7D7DB0DB-3023-40FF-9E17-4228B1E84CDC@cisco.com> References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> <1904293.2RKKe4SOYX@kitterma-e6430> <7D7DB0DB-3023-40FF-9E17-4228B1E84CDC@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: "teep@ietf.org" From: Scott Kitterman Message-ID: <30EADC3D-BCB9-4648-A60C-FEBAF1F71975@kitterman.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 23:11:11 -0000 So where's the architecture draft? The charter does say that one is 'first= '=2E Scott K On April 9, 2018 10:18:15 PM UTC, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" wrote: >Hi Scott, >You are correct that the charter also speaks to providing an >architecture draft; however, the intent is for the architecture to be >in its own document=2E It is also the case that many groups in the IETF >work on these documents in parallel=2E=2E=2E=2E=2Eas is also the case tha= t a >draft, while may be adopted as a working group document, will evolve >(e=2Eg=2E change) to ensure all use cases are addressed=2E > >Warm regards, Nancy > >=EF=BB=BFOn 4/6/18, 11:21 AM, "Scott Kitterman" = wrote: > > I went back and looked at the WG charter, and it says this about WG=20 > deliverables: > =20 >> =2E=2E The first document is on architecture, describing the involved >entities, >> their relationships, assumptions, the keying framework, and relevant >use > > cases=2E Second, a solution document that includes the above-described > > functionality in a protocol will be developed=2E =2E=2E=2E > =20 >On the data tracker, I see an expired draft, >draft-liu-opentrustprotocol- >usecase-01, that (at least based on the title, I confess I didn't read >it yet)=20 > seems to relate to the first WG deliverable=2E > =20 > I think that once the first document was done, I would be much more=20 > comfortable with a draft like this one that addresses a subset of the=20 >documented use cases=2E I believe there is a technical risk associated >with not=20 > doing the first thing first=2E > =20 >The security model of this draft appears to me to be inherently tied to >the=20 >idea of baking specific keys into a system during the manufacturing >process=2E =20 >For this use case, I can understand that approach, but that seems >unlikely to=20 > be sufficient for end-user organizations to assert control, since, by=20 > definition, such keys would be outside their trust boundary=2E > =20 >Without an overall keying framework and use cases from the first >document, I=20 >don't see how the WG can move forward with this solution without >excessive=20 >risk that it will have to be completely reworked once an framework for >all use=20 > cases is developed=2E > =20 >I guess that's a long no=2E I think the WG ought to do what the charter >says is=20 > the first document first=2E > =20 > Scott K > =20 > On Thursday, April 05, 2018 10:15:51 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: > > Hi Scott, > >=20 >> Thanks for that feedback=E2=80=A6=2Eand yes, the notion is to get a bas= e >document that >> we can use as a starting point to build upon and ensure that the use >cases > > of interest are addressed=2E > =20 > > Your points are well taken and we put them as items that need to be >> addressed if you are OK moving forward with this draft as the >starting > > point=2E > =20 > > Best, Nancy > >=20 > > On 4/2/18, 12:05 PM, "TEEP on behalf of Scott Kitterman" > > wrote= : > =20 > > On Monday, April 02, 2018 06:07:32 PM Nancy Cam-Winget wrote: > >=20 > > > All, > > >=20 >> > There was strong interest and consensus at the TEEP f2f IETF >101 > > > meeting in London for adopting >> > https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-pei-opentrustprotocol/= =20 >as a > > > draft > > > protocol=2E=20 >> > This is a call for adoption as a working group draft =2E If you >have > > > any > > > concerns or objections please respond by April 16th=2E > > >=20 > > > Warm regards, Nancy > >=20 > > =20 >> I've reviewed the document=2E It's clear that a lot of effort has >gone > > into it=20 > and I think it's generally a good basis for a working group > > draft, but (you knew that was coming, right?): > > =20 >> If I am reading the document correctly, it seems to exclude >device > > owners from=20 > managing the security of their own devices and I think that's > > problematic=2E=20 > > The core of the issue is embedded in the definition of a trusted > > execution=20 > environment (Page 6, TEE definition): > > =20 > >=20 > > > =2E=2E=2E Assuance that only authorized code can run in the TEE= =2E=2E=2E > >=20 > > =20 >> The question is authorized by who? The draft as it exists >constrains > > this to=20 > trust roots installed during manufacturing: > > =20 > >=20 > > > 12=2E3=2E Attestation Hierarchy > > >=20 > > >=20 >> > The attestation hierarchy and seed required for TAM protocol > > > operation must be built into the device at manufacture=2E= =20 > > > Additional >> > TEEs can be added post-manufacture using the scheme >proposed, but > > > it >> > is outside of the current scope of this document to detail >that=2E > >=20 > > =20 >> While it doesn't preclude adoption of the document as a starting >point > > for the=20 > working group, I believe this scope limitation needs to be >> corrected=2E Ultimately the owner of the device needs to be able to >manage >> their trust hierarchy=2E Even if most users will be content to leave >this to > > the manufacturer/OEM, it should be possible to opt-out of the vendor > > supplied trust system if local policy requires it=2E > > =20 > > Scott K > > =20 > > _______________________________________________ > > TEEP mailing list > > TEEP@ietf=2Eorg > > https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/teep > > =20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > TEEP mailing list > > TEEP@ietf=2Eorg > > https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/teep > =20 > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf=2Eorg > https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/teep > =20 From nobody Wed Apr 25 15:07:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115AA12D87D for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:07:34 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:07:33 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:07:33 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: Scott Kitterman , "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aPuGMuAgATsOICAAVDVgIAEg9UAgACEE4CAGJ4mgA== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:07:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2249971.YPfUGKI2L1@kitterma-e6430> <5808D6EC-0CD5-4DEE-8EE1-A62EF479E823@cisco.com> <1904293.2RKKe4SOYX@kitterma-e6430> <7D7DB0DB-3023-40FF-9E17-4228B1E84CDC@cisco.com> <30EADC3D-BCB9-4648-A60C-FEBAF1F71975@kitterman.com> In-Reply-To: <30EADC3D-BCB9-4648-A60C-FEBAF1F71975@kitterman.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.84.34] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8465E0362235FB43B186A7671A3E11DB@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Call for adoption X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:07:38 -0000 W3NvcnJ5LCB0aGlzIGdvdCBzdHVjayBpbiBteSBkcmFmdCBib3hdDQoNCkhpIFNjb3R0LA0KV2Ug ZGlzY3Vzc2VkIHRoZSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgYW5kIHRoZSBuZWVkIHRvIGFkb3B0IGFuIGFyY2hp dGVjdHVyZSBkcmFmdCBieSB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIEFwcmlsLi4uLg0KQXMgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kLCBN aW5nLCBIYW5uZXMgYW5kIERhdmUgd2VyZSBnb2luZyB0byB3b3JrIG9uIHN1Y2ggYSBkb2N1bWVu 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XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3QFvxaF012449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:58:00 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:57:59 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:57:59 -0400 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Call for adoption Thread-Index: AQHTyq142RjpvyjwDU2wIosP54am7aQTJwQA Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:57:59 +0000 Message-ID: <38924978-1EB8-4E25-A8EE-55F85A5FD173@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 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