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2020 20:59:30.4065 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: B7N1/kEX7H8Px9RDQLLkZfz65ivjJN+LfgK99eBOeah54/fAruGujF9VFqjfCZ9o5WXmhepHLv4Nl+l1ceNCQBDRTPgIHfiKoxi16YDAy6A= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR2101MB1041 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-teep-architecture X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 20:59:35 -0000 W1RpcnVdICByKSBJbiBGaWd1cmUgNCwgZm9yIHRoZSBwdXJwb3NlIG9mICJDb2RlIHNpZ25pbmci IG15IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcgaXMgdGhlIGxvY2F0aW9uIG9mIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgQ0EgY2Vy 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Y2ggTWluZyBhbHNvIGFuc3dlcmVkLi4uIElmIHRoZSBUQSBkZXZlbG9wZXIgaGFzIHRvIGF1dGhl bnRpY2F0ZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBUQU0gaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8gdXBsb2FkIHRoZSBUQSBiaW5hcnkgaW4g dGhlIGZpcnN0IHBsYWNlLA0KdGhlbiBoYXZpbmcgdGhlIFRBTSBhZGRpdGlvbmFsbHkgY2hlY2sg dGhlIHNpZ25hdHVyZSBvbiB0aGUgVEEgYmluYXJ5IGlzIG5vdCBuZWNlc3NhcnkgaWYgaXQgdHJ1 c3RzIHRoZSBUQSBkZXZlbG9wZXIsIG9yIGlmIGl0IGhhcyBjb250cmFjdHVhbGx5IGFncmVlZCB0 byBkaXN0cmlidXRlIHRoYXQgVEEgZGV2ZWxvcGVyJ3MgYmluYXJpZXMuDQpUaGUgZW50aXR5IHRo YXQgdXBsb2FkcyB0aGUgYmluYXJ5IG5lZWQgbm90IGJlIHRoZSBzYW1lIGVudGl0eSB0aGF0IHNp Z25zIHRoZSBiaW5hcnkuICBTbyBmb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgSSBtaWdodCBnZXQgdGhlIFRBIGJpbmFy eSBzaWduZWQgYnkgYSBDQSB0aGF0IHRoZSBURUUgdHJ1c3RzLCBhbmQgdGhlbiB1cGxvYWQgaXQg dG8gdGhlDQpUQU0gdXNpbmcgbXkgb3duIGNyZWRlbnRpYWxzIHRoYXQgdGhlIFRBTSByZWNvZ25p emVzLg0KDQpEYXZlDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Feb 7 13:09:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietf.org Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E40C1200B6; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 13:09:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: ncamwing@cisco.com, teep@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu, teep-chairs@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158110974602.11722.6111670996415577090.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 13:09:06 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] teep - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 21:09:06 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Nancy Cam-Winget, a Chair of the teep working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Nancy Cam-Winget Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: suit rats mile intarea v6ops 6man tls Technology Overlap: cose Key Participant Conflict: oauth People who must be present: Nancy Cam-Winget Tirumaleswar Reddy.K Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Feb 8 14:10:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietf.org Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7071200B9; Sat, 8 Feb 2020 14:10:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teep@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teep@ietf.org Message-ID: <158119980568.21835.308650109823435050@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 14:10:05 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teep-architecture-06.txt X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:10:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning WG of the IETF. Title : Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning (TEEP) Architecture Authors : Mingliang Pei Hannes Tschofenig Dave Thaler David Wheeler Filename : draft-ietf-teep-architecture-06.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2020-02-08 Abstract: A Trusted Execution Environment (TEE) is an environment that enforces that only authorized code can execute within that environment, and that any data used by such code cannot be read or tampered with by any code outside that environment. This architecture document motivates the design and standardization of a protocol for managing the lifecycle of trusted applications running inside such a TEE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-architecture-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teep-architecture-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teep-architecture-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:40:20 +0000 From: Nicolae Paladi To: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Protocol Implementations Thread-Index: AQHV4A9BXairVA0MO066n6A6eU7Z6A== Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:40:20 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=nicolae.paladi@ri.se; x-originating-ip: [193.10.64.23] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cf1bf50e-ea9a-4adf-ba94-08d7ae266431 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1P18901MB0218: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790; x-forefront-prvs: 03094A4065 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(136003)(189003)(199004)(316002)(6506007)(6916009)(478600001)(86362001)(3480700007)(966005)(7116003)(4744005)(6486002)(26005)(2616005)(44832011)(33656002)(5660300002)(36756003)(76116006)(66946007)(91956017)(66476007)(81166006)(66446008)(66556008)(64756008)(8676002)(186003)(81156014)(8936002)(71200400001)(6512007)(2906002); 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boundary="_000_D477167780A245A0BE8E73E5E3F9F753rise_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ri.se X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cf1bf50e-ea9a-4adf-ba94-08d7ae266431 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Feb 2020 12:40:20.7306 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5a9809cf-0bcb-413a-838a-09ecc40cc9e8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Z37EtJ63op+ySNGuZr7FqGrYWUutsUC+QNQuefGvN7PWa6qdOVClE/F3DI4uBZyMHkyh+xgUfkBnTeC7NNZbfQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1P18901MB0218 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Protocol Implementations X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:40:28 -0000 --_000_D477167780A245A0BE8E73E5E3F9F753rise_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, me and some colleagues intend to start working on an implementation of the = TEEP protocol. Is there a list of existing (or work-in-progress) implementations? So far I have only found the one from https://github.com/dthaler/OTrP Best regards, Nicolae -- Nicolae Paladi Senior Researcher Cybersecurity, RISE Research Institutes of Sweden --_000_D477167780A245A0BE8E73E5E3F9F753rise_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4D0FDBEFE4A4C44B85663FFCEA3FBEA5@EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

me and some colleagues intend to start working on an implem= entation of the TEEP protocol.

Is there a list of existing (or work-in-progress) implement= ations?

So far I have only found the one from https://github.com/dthaler/OTrP<= /div>

Best regards,
Nicolae 

--
Nicolae Paladi
Senior Researcher
Cybersecurity, 
RISE Research Institutes of Sweden

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(PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: teep@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: teep@ietf.org Message-ID: <158134196415.4183.8566104020789849067@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 05:39:24 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] I-D Action: draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04.txt X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 13:39:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning WG of the IETF. Title : HTTP Transport for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to- TAM Communication Author : Dave Thaler Filename : draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2020-02-10 Abstract: The Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning (TEEP) Protocol is used to manage code and configuration data in a Trusted Execution Environment (TEE). This document specifies the HTTP transport for TEEP communication where a Trusted Application Manager (TAM) service is used to manage TEEs in devices that can initiate communication to the TAM. An implementation of this document can (if desired) run outside of any TEE, but interacts with a TEEP implementation that runs inside a TEE. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 11 02:02:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A002B12025D for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LxczRav9a7KQ for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com [63.128.21.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A6E2120271 for ; 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:02:19 +0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Working Group Last Call for HTTP Transport for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM Communication Thread-Index: AdXgu0iSExhAZRZISA2YiaXw3QSusw== Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:02:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.4.0.45 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [103.245.47.20] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5185ad88-9737-441d-f73b-08d7aed97b84 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR1601MB1110: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790; x-forefront-prvs: 0310C78181 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(32952001)(199004)(189003)(966005)(2906002)(6916009)(86362001)(478600001)(9686003)(55016002)(6506007)(26005)(8936002)(7696005)(81156014)(81166006)(52536014)(8676002)(316002)(33656002)(4744005)(66946007)(66476007)(66556008)(5660300002)(186003)(66446008)(64756008)(76116006)(71200400001)(85282002); 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boundary="_000_CY4PR1601MB12540E3731269EF636F9D5B1EA180CY4PR1601MB1254_" Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Working Group Last Call for HTTP Transport for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM Communication X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:02:30 -0000 --_000_CY4PR1601MB12540E3731269EF636F9D5B1EA180CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, This message starts a Work Group Last Call (WGLC) for HTTP Transport for Tr= usted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM Communication. The = version to be reviewed is https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-= over-http-04 The WGLC will last for 2 weeks and will end on 26th Feb 2020. Please send your comments to the list before this date and your assessment = of whether or not it is ready to proceed to publication. Regards, Tiru & Nancy --_000_CY4PR1601MB12540E3731269EF636F9D5B1EA180CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

This message starts a Work Group Last Call (WGLC) fo= r HTTP Transport for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-T= AM Communication.  The version to be reviewed is h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04  

 

The WGLC will last for 2 weeks and will end on 26th = Feb 2020.

 

Please send your comments to the list before this da= te and your assessment of whether or not it is ready to proceed to publicat= ion.

 

Regards,

Tiru & Nancy

 

--_000_CY4PR1601MB12540E3731269EF636F9D5B1EA180CY4PR1601MB1254_-- From nobody Tue Feb 11 09:05:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B2D1208D2 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:05:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IkitOqSRL8lr for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 511AD120807 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B69300B1A for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:38:15 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id AcEz0lQ5n5Wh for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.168.0.166] (wsip-72-194-193-110.dc.dc.cox.net [72.194.193.110]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A5B9300AA0 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:38:13 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2538244D-0994-4D24-991B-62111C420C02" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 12:04:53 -0500 References: To: "teep@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Working Group Last Call for HTTP Transport for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM Communication X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:05:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2538244D-0994-4D24-991B-62111C420C02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I read the document. It looks really dood, but I have two comments: 1) My reading is that application/teep+json is not required for the = content type. I think it should be. 2) Are there better examples "Foo" or "Bar" in the example. If not, = please explain them in the text. Russ > On Feb 11, 2020, at 5:02 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, > =20 > This message starts a Work Group Last Call (WGLC) for HTTP Transport = for Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM = Communication. The version to be reviewed is = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04 = =20 > =20 > The WGLC will last for 2 weeks and will end on 26th Feb 2020. > =20 > Please send your comments to the list before this date and your = assessment of whether or not it is ready to proceed to publication. > =20 > Regards, > Tiru & Nancy --Apple-Mail=_2538244D-0994-4D24-991B-62111C420C02 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii I = read the document.  It looks really dood, but I have two = comments:

1) My = reading is that application/teep+json is not required for the content = type.  I think it should be.

2) Are there better examples "Foo" or = "Bar" in the example.  If not, please explain them in the = text.

Russ


On Feb = 11, 2020, at 5:02 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi = all,
 
This = message starts a Work Group Last Call (WGLC) for HTTP Transport for = Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning: Agent-to-TAM Communication. =  The version to be reviewed is https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teep-otrp-over-http-04  
 
The WGLC = will last for 2 weeks and will end on 26th Feb 2020.
 
Please = send your comments to the list before this date and your assessment of = whether or not it is ready to proceed to publication.
 
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether we sh= ould make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol messages. Toda= y, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their= security mechanisms). It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports two e= ncodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it felt logic= al to "inherit" this encoding. Then, we added CBOR and COSE for use with co= nstrained devices. I believe we should only have one encoding. CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been working = on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is= easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite simple. The use of CBO= R/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base smaller considering= that SUIT manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and p= rotected by COSE. With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you think? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM6PR08MB37181998F4E68A7F6BCC8110FA130AM6PR08MB3718eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am = wondering whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP = protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JS= ON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms).

 

It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. = The spec supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON /= JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit” this encoding. Then, we = added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices.

 

I believe we should only have one encoding.

 

CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (althou= gh I have been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackath= on). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite= simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT = manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and protected by= COSE.  

 

With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. W= hat do you think?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM6PR08MB37181998F4E68A7F6BCC8110FA130AM6PR08MB3718eurp_-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 02:51:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70251208A4 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 02:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lHd6tr0ovTwC for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 02:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com [209.85.210.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 774401208A0 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 02:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id z9so3225550oth.5 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 02:51:12 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=8qif7LckR51RGilgMoEDQbbzniDIgKV+lPQHTw7e7do=; b=nz0zKEcg31+yVIrADFNth9Hp23s548k3b2lb2HSU0P3/pSezBkJR9TV20t+CkWT+lF +yIEytFRLdiCEwhO6OWgKRVN1xLgU4mLu5ncGYWyOc8znPlPX5r3vej35Bgh03kLMqrq HX9I8FbCbfdoAw2M3LbGPR+SEpnZvztnh76loQFDaq6CUxbPIwxj3qQ6p0bX0M23qcpn E0e1Y35FKekainS4KQeMuiUp8GMFCo6FCQhum1tXE4NkAd/DcNzsarG1z2dpBTAKM8Zb JtVVHNcD72xFZXbDWCJb9OsXaafuIh74YfnfNRrpmjX2WhWonLVlGJpXUX608oDMexpL VOwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXoXxGZVTyBMCFDi6mTeG9Dxy9Y7IZQGcc1Eb/yjD8j1SXO6fC4 V0qKOIOQITENftW5fwTmZMNq9v6ZhMmxw/C0S89Bgw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzV/BrSiS1c/pXYgo7ndHhzftz3VOm9b5py8K5w4nyGbAc2P3XIAaZs3IIKkt+kWwHUx9ZPbbLR0EoMAeoQg1k= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6b06:: with SMTP id g6mr22970829otp.93.1582195871556; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 02:51:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 11:50:58 +0100 Message-ID: To: "teep@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3a66a059effae56" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 10:51:19 -0000 --000000000000e3a66a059effae56 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Hannes, On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:16 AM Hannes Tschofenig < Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > +1 The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base > smaller > +1 for keeping things small when possible. Cheers, Emmanuel --000000000000e3a66a059effae56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Hannes,

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 11:= 16 AM Hannes Tschofenig <Ha= nnes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

I believe we should only have one encoding.


+1

The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base smaller


+1 for keeping things small when possible.

Cheers,

Emmanuel
<= /div>
--000000000000e3a66a059effae56-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 04:21:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8554912004A for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:21:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.501 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97hTr_iOLQC6 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (minerva.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2a01:7e00::3d:b000]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF5AC12001A for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (x59cc829e.dyn.telefonica.de [89.204.130.158]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11E1C1F458; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:21:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6CD6B1A3B6D; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:21:26 +0100 (CET) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig cc: "teep\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Hannes Tschofenig message dated "Thu, 20 Feb 2020 10:16:27 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:21:26 +0100 Message-ID: <23914.1582201286@dooku> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:21:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether > we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol > messages. Today, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON > and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports > two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it > felt logical to "inherit" this encoding. Then, we added CBOR and COSE > for use with constrained devices. > I believe we should only have one encoding. > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been I also agree. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl5OecYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBF8Qf+PIVJd572MnSLUN8k8RsTll64EEVe2/4Y+kc1fZ0AIjPtG6djIZg2uNs4 WrMh6zDv6pLi93YhPQCYS/EiJNSpCQnHWJEJj2Ucgkn2eDsIKl4ZXecrACgOzR5E KeTH3ey/ufYe1Bgwb/UI5oMu5MYt+cS6p/HgZBBBm+vO7i/a7cFnE9TkHrzw6pZ8 Msgc20CtE6hKF/Fe/dgWdcvAurZWaK8kTrULhNP2BJzwRN/vpvj2YlUWAAxBJWMM t0MDY02FcCjnMwzO3/a1ZqWZPc+RnDNWME+AswY5mMreoTvRCbnplwzz81MmFNJt t8dr89wA9AFqLRbbTvGBkBSOXPwdgw== =GMwx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 04:27:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC2212004A for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:27:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R2Vf4JjECV1q for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F4E12001A for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:27:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 01KCRnco024501 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:27:50 +0100 Received: from [134.102.149.130] (134.102.149.130) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:27:44 +0100 To: Hannes Tschofenig , "teep@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 07:27:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.149.130] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:27:59 -0000 Hi Hannes, hi all, I agree with this statement wrt to teep and beyond. Viele Grüße, Henk On 20.02.20 05:16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi all, > > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether we > should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol messages. > Today, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON and CBOR > (with their security mechanisms). > > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports > two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it > felt logical to “inherit” this encoding. Then, we added CBOR and COSE > for use with constrained devices. > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been > working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackathon). While > JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite simple. > The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base > smaller considering that SUIT manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be > encoded in CBOR and protected by COSE. > > With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you think? > > Ciao > > Hannes > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy > the information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > From nobody Thu Feb 20 06:22:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D7B12004F for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKNjb0-xJXeh for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8B3212003E for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id t23so2203644wmi.1 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Lo93MbrAcWkGoG8j/O/DKHGG288n1ZuORAcWWxcldE4=; b=S7X+GSjqO9IT3t0RlmzUx1UCxTbDsNbXY5K0se/7ZHjRgBY00giGpA06QeHcERUApX qua1YFZLC48Jlstd3i3WAFph86tE4rZSxK2qF0JnvsUpOmOS0rwBRWG2liJf3u+1H6HG V6iHl2yI9vDBH4eimCLsdbJMvqM9CcZKNnbmzfcObeTHkeQ+EtEKknZtHBDFauXigZ0R oJMUiaRikEnCtOCB81mv6S4nCmhdXNKrgJML498Wo/uWTP9KdodFDAhhdoNISkQSZ22E MPJ8z1RYr8V8dvGZshQK4oSvpSmLR/slqW6GHAPuxd7FJkpYE7OXDSK9OFoE3gqLymtg aVVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Lo93MbrAcWkGoG8j/O/DKHGG288n1ZuORAcWWxcldE4=; b=bLRxCo2keuGOeZEW/30ZekgcRwm7r8ulCsW3VTqOjXnAmipycvW2EJffPXn+AkeP0s 3aNn4cjM9hGk5CJJahgJwIloTLyvpO4FWuPjG1eD7A9zzUHdP7Z3gmMbIGzXQ4D5KPmI bvHV/WBBf+hFASGNzIGEijhyDWPdVQ6POvk4GPowuLktoI7GRs8POnp9IYm1TTPgRjix 9BHzqK8R98ERdORQLcEMGPluk2ESuGpxj/Mlp2r88vIocfat9QmXQIB5D+hfqJkiAH+u cQsXOa8zKvNrmQkJCTuOnNdxazic8/pCV6n7UzDP55hlDL9nyt3yTyrZY7iDyctyZ0rM aH0w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWV1oMe/X2feKtxVrwzRzRU3Et3pY4N0TrDAv1yfgufOuMwn+Hq +39TbzDSL1nwnffOmBrXLmrCjKz5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzGrJY6mfuKn+w7rjm9zkneB9zyk+aHy6eDL3c+kvPC87RxGKeKHTUXQpvnOoGBh+c88wNZGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:9e13:: with SMTP id h19mr4910041wme.21.1582208557921; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.97] ([176.160.13.251]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id c74sm5141997wmd.26.2020.02.20.06.22.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:22:37 -0800 (PST) To: Henk Birkholz , Hannes Tschofenig , "teep@ietf.org" References: From: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 15:22:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:22:44 -0000 I believe I suggested exactly this a while ago... Anders On 2020-02-20 13:27, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Hi Hannes, > hi all, > > I agree with this statement wrt to teep and beyond. > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > On 20.02.20 05:16, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether we >> should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol messages. >> Today, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON and CBOR >> (with their security mechanisms). >> >> It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports >> two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it >> felt logical to “inherit” this encoding. Then, we added CBOR and COSE >> for use with constrained devices. >> >> I believe we should only have one encoding. >> >> CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been >> working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackathon). While >> JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite simple. >> The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base >> smaller considering that SUIT manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be >> encoded in CBOR and protected by COSE. >> >> With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you think? >> >> Ciao >> >> Hannes >> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy >> the information in any medium. Thank you. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TEEP mailing list >> TEEP@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >> > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > From nobody Thu Feb 20 06:26:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD30312003E for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 06:26:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=risecloud.onmicrosoft.com 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b=Tu9Sg/ys+N+ZvKFBz2nCu/eCiVyzYaJyoZ2m7II6bjngjmey4GbNsC+pnEgzw4QyW47q+0gDwyiTdp65fVEw6EHNLZUK0+fJiSvTCEbX/QPGsbP3nUi25PM8D4kImZS+lwqoHPq+qcoYAVlvWFcwkGcO1sYGK+d7u2ZqVYGSlkg= Received: from HE1P18901MB0170.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.168.190.20) by HE1P18901MB0026.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.168.184.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.24; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:26:13 +0000 Received: from HE1P18901MB0170.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::30f8:18fa:a56e:b0b8]) by HE1P18901MB0170.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::30f8:18fa:a56e:b0b8%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2729.033; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:26:13 +0000 From: Nicolae Paladi To: Hannes Tschofenig CC: "teep@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE Thread-Index: AdXn1SQGDdHEa7ViTNKpyKZllFqBSgAJI/6A Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:26:13 +0000 Message-ID: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: 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a26mr19919034ljj.82.1582219333462; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:22:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> In-Reply-To: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> From: Mingliang Pei Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:22:01 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nicolae Paladi Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "teep@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000543f3b059f052533" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:22:18 -0000 --000000000000543f3b059f052533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory format: CBOR / COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi wrote= : > > > On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig > wrote: > > Hi all, > > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether we > should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol messages. > Today, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with > their security mechanisms). > > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports two > encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it felt > logical to =E2=80=9Cinherit=E2=80=9D this encoding. Then, we added CBOR a= nd COSE for use > with constrained devices. > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been workin= g > on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE = is > easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite simple. The use of > CBOR/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base smaller > considering that SUIT manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded = in > CBOR and protected by COSE. > > > I agree, better to focus on one format. > > Best regards, > Nicolae > > > With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you think? > > Ciao > Hannes > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > > > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MSsiXmEmb2Dwfb5s7ZBbYv7Vc?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F= %2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep > --000000000000543f3b059f052533 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory f= ormat: CBOR / COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming<= br>

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi <nicolae.paladi@ri.se> wrote:


On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> = wrote:

Hi all,=C2=A0
=C2=A0
With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering whether we sh= ould make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP protocol messages. Toda= y, the spec allows two types of encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their= security mechanisms).
=C2=A0
It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec supports two e= ncodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON / JOSE and it felt logic= al to =E2=80=9Cinherit=E2=80=9D this encoding. Then, we added CBOR and COSE= for use with constrained devices.
=C2=A0
I believe we should only have one encoding.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have been working = on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is= easier to debug the TEEP protocol is actually quite simple. The use of CBO= R/COSE will allow us to keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT manifests as well as = EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and protected by COSE. =C2=A0

I agree, better to focus on one format.

Best regards,
Nicolae

=C2=A0
With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you think?
=C2=A0
Ciao
Hannes
=C2=A0
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential an= d may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other pe= rson, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. __________________= _____________________________
TEEP mailing list
TEEP@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep

_______________________________________________
TEEP mailing list
TEEP@ietf.org
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score=-3.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, BITCOIN_SPAM_02=2.499, PDS_BTC_ID=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ic1QwKdOHyOh for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 01:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 011091200B6 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 01:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 01L9moYO018272 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:48:51 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.206.149.19) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 10:48:45 +0100 To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Mingliang Pei , Nicolae Paladi CC: Hannes Tschofenig , "teep@ietf.org" References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 04:48:45 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.206.149.19] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 09:49:00 -0000 Hi Tiru, I'd stay in the scope of CBOR and use cbor-diag. As cbor-diag can be directly translated into CBOR data items, that is the notation I am working with on a daily basis. If needed, a JSON data item can be derived from cbor-diag quite easily. Viele Grüße, Henk On 21.02.20 04:43, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > The protocol draft can discuss either CBOR to JSON conversion or > diagnostic notation discussed in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#section-6 to ease debugging. > > -Tiru > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of * Mingliang Pei > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:52 PM > *To:* Nicolae Paladi > *Cc:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless > you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory format: CBOR / > COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi > wrote: > > > > On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig > > > wrote: > > Hi all, > > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering > whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP > protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of > encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). > > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec > supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON > / JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit†this encoding. Then, we > added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have > been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the > Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol > is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to > keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT > manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and > protected by COSE. > > I agree, better to focus on one format. > > Best regards, > > Nicolae > > > > With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you > think? > > Ciao > > Hannes > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments > are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the > intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do > not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any > purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank > you. _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MSsiXmEmb2Dwfb5s7ZBbYv7Vc?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep > > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > From nobody Fri Feb 21 03:29:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD713120255 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 03:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JSQDrhrC8ASG for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 03:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48BCA120236 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 03:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dynamic-218-i.informatik.uni-bremen.de (dynamic-218-i.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48P8PV40Zpzyd9; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 12:29:34 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 12:29:34 +0100 Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Mingliang Pei , Nicolae Paladi , Hannes Tschofenig X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 603977374.411396-ffcd1f12016ecdd7977421d6d5debefc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7CE83214-D432-48EA-A7EA-FFE8AEF3E73D@tzi.org> References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> To: "teep@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:29:40 -0000 On 2020-02-21, at 10:48, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > use cbor-diag Just in case this term is not well-known: CBOR diagnostic notation was originally defined in Section 6 of RFC 7049 = and has been extended in Appendix G of RFC 8610. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#section-6 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8610#appendix-G Every JSON text also is an instance of CBOR diagnostic notation, i.e., = CBOR diagnostic notation is a strict superset of JSON. A few tools support CBOR diagnostic notation, e.g., gem install cbor-diag =E2=80=A6 and then convert for example with diag2cbor.rb foo.diag >foo.cbor (See below for more info.) There is also support in https://crates.io/crates/cbor-diag-cli Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten gem install cbor-diag gives you the tools: cbor2diag.rb cbor2json.rb cbor2pretty.rb cbor2yaml.rb diag2cbor.rb diag2pretty.rb json2cbor.rb json2pretty.rb which do pretty much what you would expect them to do, given these definitions: "cbor" is binary CBOR. "diag" is CBOR's diagnostic notation. "json" is JSON. "pretty" is the pretty-printed representation of binary CBOR as used by cbor.me.). "yaml" is YAML. Output is to stdout, input from stdin or files given as command line arguments). (json2cbor.rb also has a -v option.) From nobody Fri Feb 21 22:23:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDEF12006D; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:23:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QI78XodDennu; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54DEE120123; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 22:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.42.113] (p548DC4D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.196.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48PdYy6Rwpz183C; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 07:23:34 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 604045414.443391-eb865c07a16874871375d40eaf339e7a Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 07:23:34 +0100 To: suit@ietf.org, teep@ietf.org, din@irtf.org, rats@ietf.org, lake@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF107: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 06:23:39 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF107. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. Conflicts that meet the eye: ROLL vs. COSE/TEEP, LPWAN vs. RATS, and LAKE vs. RATS, WPACK vs. ACE. The latter two might be a bigger problem, while the first two are displaying the inevitable split between security vs. other IoT issues, as is MODEL-T vs. CORE and TXAUTH vs. T2TRG. All times are in PDT =3D=3D UTC - 7 hours. Note that North America is = on DST already during the IETF, while Europe will only go there on March 29, so we are in the three-week period of DST confusion (where the US is one hour closer to the EU than the rest of the year). (Pure UTC times at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc are useful for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, March 20, 2020 0900-1800 T2TRG/W3C WoT Workshop = https://github.com/t2trg/2020-03-vancouver SATURDAY, March 21, 2020 0830-2200 IETF Hackathon - Plaza Ballroom SUNDAY, March 22, 2020 0830-1600 IETF Hackathon - Plaza Ballroom 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Regency A/B/C/D 1800-2000 Hot RFC Lightning Talks -- Plaza B/C MONDAY, March 23, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Regency D ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Regency C INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Plaza B/C IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Regency E SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency C INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Regency D IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Georgia A SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Georgia B SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Plaza A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Regency F ART webtrans WebTransport WG Regency C IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Regency E OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Plaza A RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Plaza B/C SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Georgia A RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Georgia B SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Plaza B/C SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Regency C TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting TUESDAY, March 24, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Georgia A INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Regency D IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Regency F SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Regency E SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Plaza B/C TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency C INT masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over = QUIC Encryption BOF Regency D IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Georgia B RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Georgia A SEC emu EAP Method Update WG Plaza A SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Regency F ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Plaza A IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Georgia B SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Regency C TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Plaza B/C INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Georgia A RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Regency D RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Regency E RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Regency C TSV quic QUIC WG WEDNESDAY, March 25, 2020 0830-0945 Side Meetings / Open Time Regency C tdd Technology Deep Dive 1000-1200 Morning Session I Regency F IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Georgia B RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Regency D SEC txauth Transactional Authorization and = Delegation BOF Regency C TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Regency C ART wpack Web Packaging BOF Regency E IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Georgia A SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Georgia A model-t Internet Threat Model Plaza A ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Plaza B/C RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting 1710-1940 IETF Plenary - Regency C/D/E/F THURSDAY, March 26, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Georgia A ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Georgia B INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET Georgia B INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Regency E IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Regency C SEC privacypass privacy-pass BOF Plaza B/C TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency F OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Regency D SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting Georgia B TSV taps Transport Services WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Regency C ART httpbis HTTP WG Regency F INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Regency E IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Plaza B/C RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Regency E ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Georgia B INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Regency D OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG FRIDAY, March 27, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Plaza B/C INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Regency C SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 1220-1350 Morning Session II Regency D ART httpbis HTTP WG Regency C IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Regency F SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Georgia A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG From nobody Mon Feb 24 03:36:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aB6po7uEvx5hUbQjuyW+yk19H5QmdHRyckCjehPgYSE=; b=kl/51u76vjSexbNcKdHnHlUh1VgpIDCTQSAvTl7lZIaXY3En5wHaDe3dz0CCVa3pW6 BjiRSm20I6UL7Pwf/krXLrsos7vlbKZ0/cXpxptJs+S2lR8pSci237p8/yVxiv7BE8s+ U/v0etBZVbGxeUe7YaDZrWvqhJ5znL8iV/pNpJK+wymKr91hx6GNYiJwcRyrYXIMcmFf fbt/uBSwY+jigQTx0pCqGEmGc+KIfBfkyQY5hrFMHKYCexqfKMb61lu6AlTrc8QKIoKy tI88ndkkxaOVRxZ2traGauaAuU4BY3+MO/W3HvZgdu+QROaO3dTZTP+nRWnPxoNUhHtN JKcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aB6po7uEvx5hUbQjuyW+yk19H5QmdHRyckCjehPgYSE=; b=qYHOJlVVgl1DpmUHYJTfVIpf3UNGIdeL3+mOo8UY3Fd/RuMDXUyWrYBSmNSsK7OrK1 i25LFaUEMhW43kQcMK6f4BsZPL5S5iY73wi/RDJF1Q0Bae8DR1tFmkzvO6c2xSykF4pd F1w82eJqy3MRpRfIPqzR3JigWEEAvO1WJs18ztCsU98Koh5warPYXWVhaILMSMG7R2Za xYttqgQ2mmdsbePI7p1FHZ2oDmYBMyYa34zpHro2yO2soIzh0U/4E936jbguchzHxcXr yrjaHbsW1T9cWJC81xsbHu88s3U9MszOOB5Z2/g5jiFpFxIDPRG3zw/C6ypOBfPICEmA FxRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAURZIpqdSLLF+38Mkx8IfCP7p5ANUWV5Ibj80MWeHbjwtfTaNal xU2C0BThl5dgIkgzGwuYTvZKlM9kc4RhMAvg9ws= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyFhds/ZUyCaTUzR9fuQUXSqcsq2oRMlq2A3b06dBCWj/C9uMBvrQKIl5nL0+UeIAP4DIOUmfwWDj9Beofx7LI= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b457:: with SMTP id d84mr15318774wmf.172.1582549274382; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:01:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> In-Reply-To: From: Akira Tsukamoto Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 22:01:02 +0900 Message-ID: To: Henk Birkholz Cc: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy , Mingliang Pei , Nicolae Paladi , Hannes Tschofenig , teep Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Fwd: JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:01:19 -0000 I mistakenly dropped many addresses when I pressed button gmail, this is resend which I sent to Henk only. > On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig > > > wrote: > > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering > whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP > protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of > encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). > > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec > supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON > / JOSE and it felt logical to =E2=80=9Cinherit=E2=80=9D this enco= ding. Then, we > added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have > been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the > Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol > is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to > keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT > manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and > protected by COSE. The Hackathon at Berlin was really productive and thanks. I personally do not mind if the protocol spec becomes having only CBOR/COSE and drop JSON/JOSE. I think we have two discussion on this topic, one is completing the draft and other is whether the TAM implementation must support support both CBOR and JSON. It is very good to have some kind of reference implementation of TEEP along side with the spec draft, so I would prefer having the current implementation started on JSON to be finished and fill out the details in the spec for what we have discussed during the Hakathon. The sequences of TEEP in JSON which I was wroking on at the Hackathon are still not mature. https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/7 The suit representation is not there yet either. These are the links I would like to reflect on the draft before the next IETF hackathon. https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/151 https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/6 https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/5 https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/4 <- we had conclusion at the Hakathon on this Otherwise I am bit concerned many people having different interpretation from reading the draft and many implementation suffering interoperability. Once the details is addressed in the JSON then having CBOR representation in the spec is fine. The cbor-diag tool mentioned by Carsten at the other thread is great. It is good if somebody starts CBOR implementation in the time being. My thought was that switching to CBOR only and no JSON now for the Hackathon is that the TAM side is possible to talk CBOR relatively easy since there is "npm install cbor" to use cbor library with javascript, but for the implementation on TEEP device side, there are cn-cbor and tiny-cbor for c language which is not so easy for try and error and changing the message formats while the draft is also moving. The other topic of requiring the TAM to support both JSON and CBOR in the d= raft, I do not feel that it should have to support both. TAM talking otrp with json or/either teep with cbor is fine for me. -Akira On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:49 PM Henk Birkholz wrote: > > Hi Tiru, > > I'd stay in the scope of CBOR and use cbor-diag. As cbor-diag can be > directly translated into CBOR data items, that is the notation I am > working with on a daily basis. > > If needed, a JSON data item can be derived from cbor-diag quite easily. > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > > On 21.02.20 04:43, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > > The protocol draft can discuss either CBOR to JSON conversion or > > diagnostic notation discussed in > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#section-6 to ease debugging. > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of * Mingliang Pei > > *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:52 PM > > *To:* Nicolae Paladi > > *Cc:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE > > > > *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless > > you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory format: CBOR / > > COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming > > > > On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig > > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering > > whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEE= P > > protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of > > encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms= ). > > > > It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec > > supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSO= N > > / JOSE and it felt logical to =E2=80=9Cinherit=E2=80=9D this en= coding. Then, we > > added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. > > > > I believe we should only have one encoding. > > > > CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have > > been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the > > Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protoco= l > > is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to > > keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT > > manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and > > protected by COSE. > > > > I agree, better to focus on one format. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Nicolae > > > > > > > > With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you > > think? > > > > Ciao > > > > Hannes > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachment= s > > are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the > > intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do > > not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any > > purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank > > you. _______________________________________________ > > TEEP mailing list > > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TEEP mailing list > > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MSsiXmEmb2Dwfb5s7ZBbYv7Vc?u=3Dhttps= %3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TEEP mailing list > > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > > > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep From nobody Mon Feb 24 05:12:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3E83A0AAC for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:12:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 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AM0PR08MB3106 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:18:46 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB37164BB214E250891B050CF9FAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37164BB214E250891B050CF9FAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37164BB214E250891B050CF9FAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 05:24:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8A23A0B37 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:24:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.101 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, BITCOIN_SPAM_02=2.499, PDS_BTC_ID=0.499, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h4Hlxr-rG-CC for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FFA53A0B2E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 01ODO67T005089 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:24:07 +0100 Received: from [134.102.153.63] (134.102.153.63) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:24:01 +0100 To: Hannes Tschofenig , Akira Tsukamoto CC: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy , Mingliang Pei , Nicolae Paladi , teep References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:24:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.153.63] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:24:21 -0000 Hi all, while I am of course in favor of using cbor-diag, please mind that would be a CBOR instance example. In general, the message structure (that the cbor-diag is an example of) should be illustrated (or specified, depending on the nature of the document) in CDDL. I do not object to start with JSON and then finalizing with CBOR only, in principle. The only caveat here is that a lot of the benefits by using CBOR only that were highlighted in this thread are lost for the most part of the way, if you start with JSON. Viele Grüße, Henk On 24.02.20 08:12, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Thanks, Akira. > > If we decide to only use CBOR/COSE for the TEEP protocol then the draft becomes simpler. It still make sense to put examples with CBOR diagnostic format into the draft. That's something we should certainly do. > > I am pushing for a decision about this topic because > * the draft needs to be updated in time for the IETF submission deadline, > * the reference implementations need to progress, and > * making a decision gives us clarity about the direction we are heading. > > For the reference implementation I am wondering whether it makes sense to re-use QCBOR and an enhanced version* of t_cose. Hackathon participants were quite impressed with QCBOR and t_cose. > > Ciao > Hannes > > *: I am speaking about an enhanced version because t_cose implements only verifying digital signatures. The sign functionality is missing. (At least that's my understanding.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Akira Tsukamoto > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 2:01 PM > To: Henk Birkholz > Cc: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy ; Mingliang Pei ; Nicolae Paladi ; Hannes Tschofenig ; teep > Subject: Fwd: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE > > I mistakenly dropped many addresses when I pressed button gmail, this is resend which I sent to Henk only. > >> On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig >> > >> wrote: >> >> With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering >> whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP >> protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of >> encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). >> >> It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec >> supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON >> / JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit†this encoding. Then, we >> added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. >> >> I believe we should only have one encoding. >> >> CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have >> been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the >> Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol >> is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to >> keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT >> manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and >> protected by COSE. > > The Hackathon at Berlin was really productive and thanks. > > I personally do not mind if the protocol spec becomes having only CBOR/COSE and drop JSON/JOSE. > > I think we have two discussion on this topic, one is completing the draft and other is whether the TAM implementation must support support both CBOR and JSON. > > It is very good to have some kind of reference implementation of TEEP along side with the spec draft, so I would prefer having the current implementation started on JSON to be finished and fill out the details in the spec for what we have discussed during the Hakathon. > > The sequences of TEEP in JSON which I was wroking on at the Hackathon are still not mature. > https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/7 > The suit representation is not there yet either. > > These are the links I would like to reflect on the draft before the next IETF hackathon. > https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/151 > https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/6 > https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/5 > https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/4 <- we had conclusion at the Hakathon on this > > Otherwise I am bit concerned many people having different interpretation from reading the draft and many implementation suffering interoperability. > Once the details is addressed in the JSON then having CBOR representation in the spec is fine. > The cbor-diag tool mentioned by Carsten at the other thread is great. > It is good if somebody starts CBOR implementation in the time being. > > My thought was that switching to CBOR only and no JSON now for the Hackathon is that the TAM side is possible to talk CBOR relatively easy since there is "npm install cbor" to use cbor library with javascript, but for the implementation on TEEP device side, there are cn-cbor and tiny-cbor for c language which is not so easy for try and error and changing the message formats while the draft is also moving. > > The other topic of requiring the TAM to support both JSON and CBOR in the draft, I do not feel that it should have to support both. > TAM talking otrp with json or/either teep with cbor is fine for me. > > -Akira > > On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:49 PM Henk Birkholz wrote: >> >> Hi Tiru, >> >> I'd stay in the scope of CBOR and use cbor-diag. As cbor-diag can be >> directly translated into CBOR data items, that is the notation I am >> working with on a daily basis. >> >> If needed, a JSON data item can be derived from cbor-diag quite easily. >> >> Viele Grüße, >> >> Henk >> >> On 21.02.20 04:43, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: >>> The protocol draft can discuss either CBOR to JSON conversion or >>> diagnostic notation discussed in >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#section-6 to ease debugging. >>> >>> -Tiru >>> >>> *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of * Mingliang Pei >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:52 PM >>> *To:* Nicolae Paladi >>> *Cc:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep@ietf.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE >>> >>> *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments >>> unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory format: >>> CBOR / COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering >>> whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP >>> protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of >>> encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). >>> >>> It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec >>> supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON >>> / JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit†this encoding. Then, we >>> added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. >>> >>> I believe we should only have one encoding. >>> >>> CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have >>> been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the >>> Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol >>> is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to >>> keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT >>> manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and >>> protected by COSE. >>> >>> I agree, better to focus on one format. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Nicolae >>> >>> >>> >>> With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you >>> think? >>> >>> Ciao >>> >>> Hannes >>> >>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments >>> are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the >>> intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do >>> not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any >>> purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank >>> you. _______________________________________________ >>> TEEP mailing list >>> TEEP@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >>> >>> >> A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TEEP mailing list >>> TEEP@ietf.org >>> >>> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MSsiXmEmb2Dwfb5s7ZBbYv7Vc?u=https%3A >>> %2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TEEP mailing list >>> TEEP@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TEEP mailing list >> TEEP@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. 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teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22493A0B76 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.101 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, BITCOIN_SPAM_02=2.499, PDS_BTC_ID=0.499, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ajnt0oxVkEf for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF78B3A0B72 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 05:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 01ODiL2s006851 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:44:22 +0100 Received: from [192.168.178.13] (134.102.43.219) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.487.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:44:16 +0100 To: Hannes Tschofenig CC: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy , Mingliang Pei , Nicolae Paladi , teep References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <74f54d9a-9590-3a13-abb0-f88ce575f61d@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:44:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.219] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:44:31 -0000 Yes, absolutely. +4 on all four points. I just wanted to highlight Akira's comment that was: On 24.02.20 07:09, Akira Tsukamoto wrote: > I would prefer having the current implementation started on JSON to > be finished and fill out the details in the spec for what we have discussed during the Hakathon. This approach would deduct from the benefits that were illustrated in this thread. I am not in favor of this approach, but there might be necessities that I am unaware of? Viele Grüße, Henk On 24.02.20 08:39, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > My idea was to use > * CDDL to describe the protocol messages (as it is already done in the spec). > * the CBOR diagnostic format for examples. > * CBOR for the over-the-wire encoding. > * COSE as the security-wrapper for the protocol messages. > > I believe this is also inline with your thinking. Correct? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Birkholz > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 2:24 PM > To: Hannes Tschofenig ; Akira Tsukamoto > Cc: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy ; Mingliang Pei ; Nicolae Paladi ; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE > > Hi all, > > while I am of course in favor of using cbor-diag, please mind that would be a CBOR instance example. In general, the message structure (that the cbor-diag is an example of) should be illustrated (or specified, depending on the nature of the document) in CDDL. > > I do not object to start with JSON and then finalizing with CBOR only, in principle. The only caveat here is that a lot of the benefits by using CBOR only that were highlighted in this thread are lost for the most part of the way, if you start with JSON. > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > On 24.02.20 08:12, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> Thanks, Akira. >> >> If we decide to only use CBOR/COSE for the TEEP protocol then the draft becomes simpler. It still make sense to put examples with CBOR diagnostic format into the draft. That's something we should certainly do. >> >> I am pushing for a decision about this topic because >> * the draft needs to be updated in time for the IETF submission >> deadline, >> * the reference implementations need to progress, and >> * making a decision gives us clarity about the direction we are heading. >> >> For the reference implementation I am wondering whether it makes sense to re-use QCBOR and an enhanced version* of t_cose. Hackathon participants were quite impressed with QCBOR and t_cose. >> >> Ciao >> Hannes >> >> *: I am speaking about an enhanced version because t_cose implements >> only verifying digital signatures. The sign functionality is missing. >> (At least that's my understanding.) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Akira Tsukamoto >> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 2:01 PM >> To: Henk Birkholz >> Cc: Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy ; >> Mingliang Pei ; Nicolae >> Paladi ; Hannes Tschofenig >> ; teep >> Subject: Fwd: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE >> >> I mistakenly dropped many addresses when I pressed button gmail, this is resend which I sent to Henk only. >> >>> On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering >>> whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP >>> protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of >>> encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). >>> >>> It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec >>> supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON >>> / JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit†this encoding. Then, we >>> added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. >>> >>> I believe we should only have one encoding. >>> >>> CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have >>> been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the >>> Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol >>> is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to >>> keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT >>> manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and >>> protected by COSE. >> >> The Hackathon at Berlin was really productive and thanks. >> >> I personally do not mind if the protocol spec becomes having only CBOR/COSE and drop JSON/JOSE. >> >> I think we have two discussion on this topic, one is completing the draft and other is whether the TAM implementation must support support both CBOR and JSON. >> >> It is very good to have some kind of reference implementation of TEEP along side with the spec draft, so I would prefer having the current implementation started on JSON to be finished and fill out the details in the spec for what we have discussed during the Hakathon. >> >> The sequences of TEEP in JSON which I was wroking on at the Hackathon are still not mature. >> https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/7 >> The suit representation is not there yet either. >> >> These are the links I would like to reflect on the draft before the next IETF hackathon. >> https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/151 >> https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/6 >> https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/5 >> https://github.com/ietf-teep/teep-protocol/issues/4 <- we had >> conclusion at the Hakathon on this >> >> Otherwise I am bit concerned many people having different interpretation from reading the draft and many implementation suffering interoperability. >> Once the details is addressed in the JSON then having CBOR representation in the spec is fine. >> The cbor-diag tool mentioned by Carsten at the other thread is great. >> It is good if somebody starts CBOR implementation in the time being. >> >> My thought was that switching to CBOR only and no JSON now for the Hackathon is that the TAM side is possible to talk CBOR relatively easy since there is "npm install cbor" to use cbor library with javascript, but for the implementation on TEEP device side, there are cn-cbor and tiny-cbor for c language which is not so easy for try and error and changing the message formats while the draft is also moving. >> >> The other topic of requiring the TAM to support both JSON and CBOR in the draft, I do not feel that it should have to support both. >> TAM talking otrp with json or/either teep with cbor is fine for me. >> >> -Akira >> >> On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 6:49 PM Henk Birkholz wrote: >>> >>> Hi Tiru, >>> >>> I'd stay in the scope of CBOR and use cbor-diag. As cbor-diag can be >>> directly translated into CBOR data items, that is the notation I am >>> working with on a daily basis. >>> >>> If needed, a JSON data item can be derived from cbor-diag quite easily. >>> >>> Viele Grüße, >>> >>> Henk >>> >>> On 21.02.20 04:43, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: >>>> The protocol draft can discuss either CBOR to JSON conversion or >>>> diagnostic notation discussed in >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7049#section-6 to ease debugging. >>>> >>>> -Tiru >>>> >>>> *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of * Mingliang Pei >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:52 PM >>>> *To:* Nicolae Paladi >>>> *Cc:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep@ietf.org >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE >>>> >>>> *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments >>>> unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> I agree we move forward TEEP protocol with one mandatory format: >>>> CBOR / COSE, and focus on specifying only one for now. Thanks, Ming >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 6:26 AM Nicolae Paladi >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 20 Feb 2020, at 11:16, Hannes Tschofenig >>>> > >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> With the impression from the Hackathon in mind I am wondering >>>> whether we should make a decision about the encoding of the TEEP >>>> protocol messages. Today, the spec allows two types of >>>> encodings, namely JSON and CBOR (with their security mechanisms). >>>> >>>> It is obviously a pain to implement both encodings. The spec >>>> supports two encodings because the OTrP design was based on JSON >>>> / JOSE and it felt logical to “inherit†this encoding. Then, we >>>> added CBOR and COSE for use with constrained devices. >>>> >>>> I believe we should only have one encoding. >>>> >>>> CBOR and COSE appear to be the better choice (although I have >>>> been working on an implementation of JSON and JOSE at the >>>> Hackathon). While JSON/JOSE is easier to debug the TEEP protocol >>>> is actually quite simple. The use of CBOR/COSE will allow us to >>>> keep the trusted computing base smaller considering that SUIT >>>> manifests as well as EAT tokens are/can be encoded in CBOR and >>>> protected by COSE. >>>> >>>> I agree, better to focus on one format. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Nicolae >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> With this email I wanted to kick-off a discussion. What do you >>>> think? >>>> >>>> Ciao >>>> >>>> Hannes >>>> >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments >>>> are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the >>>> intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do >>>> not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any >>>> purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank >>>> you. _______________________________________________ >>>> TEEP mailing list >>>> TEEP@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >>>> >>>> >>> A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TEEP mailing list >>>> TEEP@ietf.org >>>> >>>> https://clicktime.symantec.com/3MSsiXmEmb2Dwfb5s7ZBbYv7Vc?u=https%3A >>>> %2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TEEP mailing list >>>> TEEP@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TEEP mailing list >>> TEEP@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >> > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > From nobody Mon Feb 24 06:39:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DB03A0C79 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 06:38:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UxiAna4XWj1g for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 06:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com [63.128.21.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F10373A0C77 for ; 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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:38:53 +0000 Received: from CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a48c:a975:ccfa:8d29]) by CY4PR1601MB1254.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a48c:a975:ccfa:8d29%4]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.021; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:38:53 +0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: Hannes Tschofenig , teep Thread-Topic: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAC2qUw Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:38:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.4.0.45 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [49.37.206.212] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 025a94f0-b7c2-492c-fdaa-08d7b9374548 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR1601MB1352: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 032334F434 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(366004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(39860400002)(32952001)(199004)(189003)(52536014)(5660300002)(66556008)(64756008)(66446008)(66476007)(66946007)(76116006)(478600001)(2906002)(316002)(966005)(110136005)(71200400001)(9686003)(55016002)(26005)(8676002)(7696005)(33656002)(86362001)(6506007)(53546011)(81166006)(8936002)(81156014)(186003)(85282002); 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boundary="_000_CY4PR1601MB125421A5B1B719E883E0D1BFEAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 14:39:00 -0000 --_000_CY4PR1601MB125421A5B1B719E883E0D1BFEAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes to ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithm and the protocol can have m= ore than one mandatory-to-implement algorithm (see https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/rfc7696). Cheers, -Tiru From: TEEP On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:49 PM To: teep Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_CY4PR1601MB125421A5B1B719E883E0D1BFEAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes to ECC as  mandatory-to-implement algorithm= and the protocol can have more than one mandatory-to-implement algorithm (= see https://tools.ietf.org/html= /rfc7696).

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:49 PM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

--_000_CY4PR1601MB125421A5B1B719E883E0D1BFEAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 07:23:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8003A0D3A for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IM_1Q-v_jsOs for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2C53A0D37 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:25 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga005.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.32]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Feb 2020 07:23:24 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,480,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="435936488" Received: from fmsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.18.124.205]) by fmsmga005.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 24 Feb 2020 07:23:10 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx607.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.126.87) by fmsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.124.205) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:10 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx607.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.126.87) by fmsmsx607.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.126.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:09 -0800 Received: from crsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com (172.18.63.136) by fmsmsx607.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.126.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:23:09 -0800 Received: from crsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.26]) by CRSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.237]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:23:08 -0600 From: "Wheeler, David M" To: Hannes Tschofenig , teep Thread-Topic: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAEDvyQ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:23:07 +0000 Message-ID: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-titus-metadata-40: eyJDYXRlZ29yeUxhYmVscyI6IiIsIk1ldGFkYXRhIjp7Im5zIjoiaHR0cDpcL1wvd3d3LnRpdHVzLmNvbVwvbnNcL0ludGVsMyIsImlkIjoiZjI4ZGRkNDEtNDdkZi00ZWVkLTgyZDYtODI3ZWI1MTdkOWFjIiwicHJvcHMiOlt7Im4iOiJDVFBDbGFzc2lmaWNhdGlvbiIsInZhbHMiOlt7InZhbHVlIjoiQ1RQX05UIn1dfV19LCJTdWJqZWN0TGFiZWxzIjpbXSwiVE1DVmVyc2lvbiI6IjE3LjEwLjE4MDQuNDkiLCJUcnVzdGVkTGFiZWxIYXNoIjoiMTg5MWQwNUdyMVNyTThaTWxsVnY1ZklIYmVJZ1poeWVjWWJKcDdIYmJpbHF4V3BJT1ZPUW5Lb0JkOFc0RlRwTyJ9 x-ctpclassification: CTP_NT dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.6 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [172.18.205.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128CRSMSX102amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:23:32 -0000 --_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128CRSMSX102amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128CRSMSX102amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEE= P <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

--_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128CRSMSX102amrcor_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:22:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1623A0F0C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:22:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZWPcXtmgVKdF for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-140.mimecast.com [216.205.24.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A871A3A0EF3 for ; 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boundary="_000_CY4PR1601MB1254AF69AF81D7923E6BAB14EAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:22:44 -0000 --_000_CY4PR1601MB1254AF69AF81D7923E6BAB14EAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms (simi= lar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ? -Tiru From: TEEP On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig ; teep Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep > Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_CY4PR1601MB1254AF69AF81D7923E6BAB14EAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

 

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <te= ep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

 

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEE= P <teep-bounces@ietf.org>= ; On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org><= br> Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

--_000_CY4PR1601MB1254AF69AF81D7923E6BAB14EAEC0CY4PR1601MB1254_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 08:38:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28ABE3A104D for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3F_L-hFGTxot for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BF323A102B for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88093300B0D for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:11:13 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id yRYwatourIFg for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 889363005D5; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: <50BE66F5-02D8-4A50-BB11-4F55D32CCB75@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41C9A545-D711-4BC8-BC4D-B2BCBC7F994B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:37:51 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: teep To: Hannes Tschofenig References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:38:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41C9A545-D711-4BC8-BC4D-B2BCBC7F994B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In the SUIT WG, I have been advocating HSS/LMS Hash-based signature as = the MTI algorithm. This is a quantum resistant signature, and NIST has = already started the process to make it a FIPS-approved algorithm = (https://csrc.nist.gov/News/2019/draft-sp-800-208-stateful-hash-based-sig-= schemes = ). I think we want a quantum resistant signature so that we can = deploy the next generation of cryptography even if a quantum computer is = invented. On the other hand, RSA, ECDSA, and EdDSA are not secure if a = large-scale quantum computer is available to the adversary. I would like to see both SUIT and TEEP select HSS/LMS Hash-based = signature as the MTI algorithm. Russ > On Feb 24, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > Hi all,=20 > =20 > The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the = MTI algorithm. > =20 > In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 = as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. > Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good = choice at that time. > =20 > Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the = mandatory-to-implement algorithm. > =20 > Thoughts?=20 > =20 > Ciao > Hannes --Apple-Mail=_41C9A545-D711-4BC8-BC4D-B2BCBC7F994B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii In = the SUIT WG, I have been advocating HSS/LMS Hash-based signature as the = MTI algorithm.  This is a quantum resistant signature, and NIST has = already started the process to make it a FIPS-approved algorithm (https://csrc.nist.gov/News/2019/draft-sp-800-208-stateful-hash-= based-sig-schemes).  I think we want a quantum resistant = signature so that we can deploy the next generation of cryptography even = if a quantum computer is invented.  On the other hand, RSA, ECDSA, = and EdDSA are not secure if a large-scale quantum computer is available = to the adversary.

I = would like to see both SUIT and TEEP select HSS/LMS Hash-based = signature as the MTI algorithm.

Russ


On Feb 24, 2020, at 8:18 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

Hi = all, 
 
The other = topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI = algorithm.
 
In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm = (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to = implement.
Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been = a good choice at that time.
 
Today, I believe it is more appropriate = to make ECC the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.
 
Thoughts? 
 
Ciao
Hannes
<= /html>= --Apple-Mail=_41C9A545-D711-4BC8-BC4D-B2BCBC7F994B-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 09:07:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A89B3A0EA9 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zh-pX4ZMnlUH for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB6473A0EA4 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EFA3897D; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5565A0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:07:10 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brendan Moran cc: "teep\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <9802731C-231B-4010-BE53-AD35D33EC25F@arm.com> References: <9802731C-231B-4010-BE53-AD35D33EC25F@arm.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:07:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brendan Moran wrote: > I also support using only one encoding, and I second keeping the TCB = as > small as possible, so I support using CBOR/COSE as the only > encoding. In particular, if TEEP is going to keep a dependency on SUI= T, > this means that using JSON/JOSE for TEEP requires supporting both > JSON/JOSE and CBOR/COSE, since SUIT already has a single encoding: > CBOR/COSE. As such, using JSON/JSOE for TEEP dramatically increases t= he > TCB from a single parser & cryptographic wrapper to two of each. This is true from a generality of specification point of view, but are ther= e any ways to use TEEP without SUIT? (I think so, but I could be wrong, as my TEEP-fu is weak) It could be that those uses could specify JSON/JOSE, whi= le all SUIT/TEEP uses could specify CBOR/COSE. Having said this, I'm already in favour of CBOR/COSE only, I just want to make sure that we are clear about the possibilities. A client implementati= on could support one or the other, but not both. > Personally, I don=E2=80=99t find CBOR/COSE significantly harder to de= bug than > JSON. I find JSON unreadable unless it=E2=80=99s been formatted. I fi= nd CBOR > unreadable unless it=E2=80=99s been decoded into diagnostic notation.= I don=E2=80=99t > find a substantial difference in overhead between these two. +1 =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5UAr4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXm4gf/Xd/8izsqlvEhQPLxN+K/dQmbpo2gYJKZtVu8Ef07EbHGZ3bB0ROqEsfV DoL/NglZrRNEcQu6lvCa4LUQmOIgEgcOAG6Q76kTcgl+m89jCax1vmSW1NU8ZTI6 b6ZueHn47Lwsf/adQuk8iqLnxnoYNqBaYYrJsVSQSjAj7qwwsavMvntiesyZhEAy YcYX97L1jJxEnPqmb6OZxCXGzzyTpmrZtgX3WTukjZwigly2/a++iTPkuyDIISvD 8wMUz17FRrJb+2VEtqr2MaP1Em2ud62vJY+S1Q9DRijjH/h5gx47oN3ldVv6mAnV ODkLWKUXVfx9CNzUihRJYxY07vq12g== =tfVY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 09:32:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02D63A0F3C for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:32:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RmQMEHtdUXzM for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga18.intel.com (mga18.intel.com [134.134.136.126]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0E803A0F3A for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga003.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.27]) by orsmga106.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Feb 2020 09:32:18 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,480,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="237390371" Received: from fmsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.18.124.201]) by orsmga003.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 24 Feb 2020 09:32:17 -0800 Received: from fmsmsx125.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.125.40) by FMSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.124.201) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:32:17 -0800 Received: from crsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com (172.18.63.31) by FMSMSX125.amr.corp.intel.com (10.18.125.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:32:17 -0800 Received: from crsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.26]) by CRSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.4.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:32:15 -0600 From: "Wheeler, David M" To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Hannes Tschofenig" , teep Thread-Topic: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAEDvyQAAJx9SAAAm0egA== Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:32:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-titus-metadata-40: eyJDYXRlZ29yeUxhYmVscyI6IiIsIk1ldGFkYXRhIjp7Im5zIjoiaHR0cDpcL1wvd3d3LnRpdHVzLmNvbVwvbnNcL0ludGVsMyIsImlkIjoiZDQxNDk1MDYtZTFiMy00YTUzLTg2M2QtMTY0NTM4MGEzNmU0IiwicHJvcHMiOlt7Im4iOiJDVFBDbGFzc2lmaWNhdGlvbiIsInZhbHMiOlt7InZhbHVlIjoiQ1RQX05UIn1dfV19LCJTdWJqZWN0TGFiZWxzIjpbXSwiVE1DVmVyc2lvbiI6IjE3LjEwLjE4MDQuNDkiLCJUcnVzdGVkTGFiZWxIYXNoIjoiZVg2XC8zV0hRWU9tTk50RjZUWUhET2tNdXVUWHNyZnNwcEVCQkZHc2IxVXVjMGRSbUd1ZEVnSnVjY1A1WkNCdTYifQ== x-ctpclassification: CTP_NT dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.6 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [172.18.205.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40ECRSMSX102amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:32:22 -0000 --_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40ECRSMSX102amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In software, this is easy ... in hardware this is prohibitive. Especially f= or small devices. Also consider that most TEE's implement a single key for attestation. If yo= u require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost for a = TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different algo= rithms for attestation. I am opposed to requiring implementation of two different algorithms. One m= ust be mandatory, and one must be optional. From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM To: Wheeler, David M ; Hannes Tschofenig ; teep Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms (simi= lar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ? -Tiru From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep > Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40ECRSMSX102amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In software, this is easy … in hardware this i= s prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE’s implement a sing= le key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for atte= station, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE tha= t supports two different algorithms for attestation.

 

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

 

From: Kon= da, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tscho= fenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

 

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

 

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org><= br> Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:19:41 +0000 Received: from AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2159:870b:25df:e612]) by AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2159:870b:25df:e612%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.021; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:19:41 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: "Wheeler, David M" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , teep Thread-Topic: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAEDvyQAAJx9SAAAm0egAABsJdg Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:19:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 6ffe668d-a9db-4402-87ff-eee4826ea259.1 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR08MB4994 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:20:01 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB37169BCD87466405CABA7C4AFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys to be present on an IoT = device is not practical. Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end IoT devices it is more li= kely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end IoT devices may be just = fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures, as Russ mentioned, is= probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC. From: TEEP On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; Hannes = Tschofenig ; teep Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm In software, this is easy ... in hardware this is prohibitive. Especially f= or small devices. Also consider that most TEE's implement a single key for attestation. If yo= u require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost for a = TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different algo= rithms for attestation. I am opposed to requiring implementation of two different algorithms. One m= ust be mandatory, and one must be optional. From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM To: Wheeler, David M >; Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms (simi= lar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ? -Tiru From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep > Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37169BCD87466405CABA7C4AFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys t= o be present on an IoT device is not practical.

 

Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end Io= T devices it is more likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end I= oT devices may be just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures= , as Russ mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC.

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com= >; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ie= tf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

In software, this is easy … in hardware this i= s prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE’s implement a sing= le key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for atte= station, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE tha= t supports two different algorithms for attestation.

 

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

 

From: Kon= da, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.i= etf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

 

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

 

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org><= br> Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37169BCD87466405CABA7C4AFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:31:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89AF3A10BA; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:30:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZxz5ta6-ZEe; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61DD73A10B9; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0170438981; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988661E5D; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:30:55 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Russ Housley , Hannes Tschofenig , teep , suit@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <50BE66F5-02D8-4A50-BB11-4F55D32CCB75@vigilsec.com> References: <50BE66F5-02D8-4A50-BB11-4F55D32CCB75@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:31:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain {should this be CC'ed to SUIT?} Russ Housley wrote: > In the SUIT WG, I have been advocating HSS/LMS Hash-based signature as > the MTI algorithm. This is a quantum resistant signature, and NIST has > already started the process to make it a FIPS-approved algorithm That's great news! Once we have paid the code space and figured out the network bandwidth to accomodate it, does it even make sense to have another MTI? I am concerned that the MTI, if not used periodically, might rot. Or it might be surprising when we have to use it, that the cost is too high. I am not clear if we need HSS/LMS for the general TEEP use. It seems that the thing that need a quantum resistant secure upgrade is for the TEE Agent code, not the TAx. I'm not clear that the TEE Agent code maintenance is even part of TEEP's mandate. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5UFl8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWQPAgAmfxrKM4l9r1rLzYxX0BITkDPw5abO1Q8Vpc5oGOBpfSJXhBSnKmE5HIe 6iSL4XWERNf1xqA7uUiNB8E5pBR9Qv3klPd5KTany/9y+Qd95X1Glx30iJPqgH1u 93BlJvmtvbKnLhSmQPGs1T8lwDXMtl0S95v/1YAO2dzFdtnGHTNUXefZBGsFU+8A VGHxPJLNnZuHnlfllz069cN6FNy99Ftl+4JDx8xZrk+viU5kwwlLLZlVYroBzi2+ qFWkA+z8cywRpm1SpeKdok01ZQnuHkEAPzpWaWoD5VGbinP7zdL64QhRIjqq4vac qjJknR7z2QEhFzX25kl0BBifJErLaA== =Ny8K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 12:04:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40653A0F2D for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:04:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_BL0PR2101MB10271C91AF9745D5E087936CA3EC0BL0PR2101MB1027_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5ea9ee55-e8a2-4de0-b7a1-08d7b964bc1e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Feb 2020 20:04:19.7743 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: O/w/sYkiC1nobM7yfCT7yxcDvvtu+O+u9uxq0yrpv69Ctrc970PeZopYQSJZn3GP9uRPzzDyeYXRDx+xaw8O0cn+3Ec4Y+0lhK6kRjKZxvs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR2101MB1026 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:04:24 -0000 --_000_BL0PR2101MB10271C91AF9745D5E087936CA3EC0BL0PR2101MB1027_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One option would be to have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to pi= ck either one. From: TEEP On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM To: Wheeler, David M ; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy= ; teep Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys to be present on an IoT = device is not practical. Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end IoT devices it is more li= kely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end IoT devices may be just = fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures, as Russ mentioned, is= probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC. From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >; Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm In software, this is easy ... in hardware this is prohibitive. Especially f= or small devices. Also consider that most TEE's implement a single key for attestation. If yo= u require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost for a = TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different algo= rithms for attestation. I am opposed to requiring implementation of two different algorithms. One m= ust be mandatory, and one must be optional. From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM To: Wheeler, David M >; Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms (simi= lar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ? -Tiru From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep > Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_BL0PR2101MB10271C91AF9745D5E087936CA3EC0BL0PR2101MB1027_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One option would be to= have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to pick either one.

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirum= aleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; teep <teep@iet= f.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys t= o be present on an IoT device is not practical.

 

Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end Io= T devices it is more likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end I= oT devices may be just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures= , as Russ mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC.

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Hannes Tsch= ofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@a= rm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

In software, this is easy … in hardware this i= s prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE’s implement a sing= le key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for atte= station, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE tha= t supports two different algorithms for attestation.

 

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

 

From: Kon= da, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

 

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

 

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org><= br> Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:56:45 +0000 Received: from AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2159:870b:25df:e612]) by AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::2159:870b:25df:e612%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.021; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:56:45 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Dave Thaler , "Wheeler, David M" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , teep Thread-Topic: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAEDvyQAAJx9SAAAm0egAABsJdgAAO5W+AAAamT4A== Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:56:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR08MB3057 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:56:58 -0000 --_000_AM0PR08MB37160E373EF8F9D340CBF56DFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That would be a possibility too. In the meanwhile we have three MTI algorit= hms: RSA, ECC, hash-based signatures The issue with long-lived devices is a bit special given that some of that = code ends up in ROM rather than code that can be updated. It might be worthwhile to reach out to device manufactures to see what thei= r thinking is. From: Dave Thaler Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:04 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig ; Wheeler, David M ; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; teep Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm One option would be to have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to pi= ck either one. From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM To: Wheeler, David M >; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys to be present on an IoT = device is not practical. Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end IoT devices it is more li= kely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end IoT devices may be just = fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures, as Russ mentioned, is= probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC. From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >; Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm In software, this is easy ... in hardware this is prohibitive. Especially f= or small devices. Also consider that most TEE's implement a single key for attestation. If yo= u require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost for a = TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different algo= rithms for attestation. I am opposed to requiring implementation of two different algorithms. One m= ust be mandatory, and one must be optional. From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM To: Wheeler, David M >; Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms (simi= lar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ? -Tiru From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Wheeler, David M Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM To: Hannes Tschofenig >; teep > Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hannes, I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as optio= nal. Below is my reasoning. In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both cl= assical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a standard, = and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely, we will fi= nd ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very releva= nt. In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant becaus= e the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are both suscep= tible to Shor's algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to quantum threats= than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key = (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than E= CC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the requ= ired number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 202= 7. It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at t= his point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well infor= med on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations have pull= ed Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algor= ithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only u= ntil we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another = 3 years at least. I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. Thanks, Dave Wheeler From: TEEP > On Behalf = Of Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM To: teep > Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Hi all, The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI al= gorithm. In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as t= he hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choice = at that time. Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the mandatory-to-implem= ent algorithm. Thoughts? Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37160E373EF8F9D340CBF56DFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That would be a possibility too. In the meanwhile we= have three MTI algorithms: RSA, ECC, hash-based signatures

The issue with long-lived devices is a bit special g= iven that some of that code ends up in ROM rather than code that can be upd= ated.

It might be worthwhile to reach out to device manufa= ctures to see what their thinking is.

 

From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com&g= t;
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:04 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Wheeler, Da= vid M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <Tiru= maleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

One option would be to= have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to pick either one.

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAf= ee.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys t= o be present on an IoT device is not practical.

 

Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end Io= T devices it is more likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end I= oT devices may be just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures= , as Russ mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC.

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Hannes Tsch= ofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@a= rm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

In software, this is easy … in hardware this i= s prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE’s implement a sing= le key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for atte= station, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE tha= t supports two different algorithms for attestation.

 

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

 

From: Kon= da, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

 

-Tiru

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recogniz= e the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

 

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

 

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor’s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more= resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

 

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

 

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

 

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep@ietf.org><= br> Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

 

Hi all,

 

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

 

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

 

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

 

Thoughts?

 

Ciao

Hannes

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and= any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are no= t the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it f= or any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM0PR08MB37160E373EF8F9D340CBF56DFAEC0AM0PR08MB3716eurp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 12:58:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621403A1309 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, PDS_BTC_ID=0.499, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H5aaDU7GTpvX for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22f.google.com (mail-lj1-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38D193A1307 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22f.google.com with SMTP id q8so11664281ljb.2 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T1BsiJz+xur6BpuJTRr1Hh3r8NCERpqrpcZNdLjuvZg=; b=XQgDaYj47GbUH3n0DH9fUwi9rmGt2xWipZTWNa/+xHYCDglTW4348zVOYXPKZxU8OT 8aOeCHMoqM+8ZpuXAWLzsfu2r7EKaQayPIUmEe85uhRRd2dm5LMEBGm6bFvgI1W/Lr6T jqSIHmk+Ilej3b2Vdfdi2HWvLMxqF8OzIu5yY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T1BsiJz+xur6BpuJTRr1Hh3r8NCERpqrpcZNdLjuvZg=; b=bzgc00r1tLKBj9KTYxd3jC4R1BPRo4zy9Exe3mzBbjad1yNWGQGjHoGNem5KlQwYVc dHzBXBewhyBRjrZJ1NgxVZqgRufc8JIIkBJ9BYBE7vqiQ2YQCBuxHLoRxcyVKImLwDBj UiwhSJPGiuunQyRwXqKRIT86e905EMKhbc8ggcG1AcSOU1hSxyzqchHwyBa8WZPMXSm6 8ynhnLKLV6LnG2umby1ju+Z4En4Rav2i2LP8l8CQv195DICiuCQ4fM114LxfJpoF4W91 eEI2B4fZxeV5zSKAe6Yq0UnZ9GEgPHnwXDSEhOIRHpSzWW3hW9sU13xfoqrWdM7V5HtX FBZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVFlD08AaRqo50AaMI3j1M6Wif+Iwl2zyGae3L5X54m5YKwZF0k PkAYyqNEVlNhIg7B2dCSljZjneePXkoy/yI4T+OxFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzzD4BbCyieeDuj1sAcKOwCA0yVe0B1Gjo6QSJMXW9qKvdZeYbgPKMjaTYZ/dxQCkHPq7rSB0QQnOwhX6FyomM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a36a:: with SMTP id i10mr30545566ljn.107.1582577890073; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mingliang Pei Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:58:02 -0800 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: "Wheeler, David M" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , teep Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f7e271059f58a05a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:58:15 -0000 --000000000000f7e271059f58a05a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A device should have only mandatory algorithm, not two, which will be too costly. There is a question about MTI for a TAM - should it support both ECC and RSA as mandatory algorithms? The TAM server side mandatory support of two are feasible and most probably will support the other one for devices that choose to use ECC for smaller size. In OTrP discussion, we had a consensus that a TAM in OTrP will need to only support one to meet interoperability. I think we will need to continue to make the distinction and explicitly specify MTI in the revised spec respectively for a TAM and a device (TEEP Agent). If a device chooses to support an optional algorithm, it will find out whether a TAM supports it via the message exchange. The support algorithm was in the initial OTrP message protocol request message, and a TAM response signing will indicate to a client whether the TAM can support it. Between RSA and ECC, we considered devices that can host TAs and TEEs are capable to do RSA, and support of RSA is more readily available in libraries and certificate issuance for implementation; therefore RSA was chosen over ECC. I am not sure we are ready to mandate a PQC algorithm yet for the initial adoption, in particular, if we are counting here many IoT devices. I feel that we will need to address this in two steps: current one and PQC one. The QC strength between RSA and ECC may not be a factor as much when we plan for a PQC in recommendation list for devices that are constraint for upgrade to support algorithm agility. If we do this, ECC can become the choice while we optimize the entire protocol to be compact, using CBOR and COSE etc. Thanks, Ming On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:20 AM Hannes Tschofenig < Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys to be present on an Io= T > device is not practical. > > > > Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end IoT devices it is more > likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end IoT devices may be > just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures, as Russ > mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC. > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of * Wheeler, David M > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM > *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; > Hannes Tschofenig ; teep > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > In software, this is easy =E2=80=A6 in hardware this is prohibitive. Espe= cially > for small devices. > > Also consider that most TEE=E2=80=99s implement a single key for attestat= ion. If > you require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost fo= r > a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different > algorithms for attestation. > > > > I am opposed to *requiring* implementation of two different algorithms. > One must be mandatory, and one must be optional. > > > > *From:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM > *To:* Wheeler, David M ; Hannes Tschofenig < > Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep > *Subject:* RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms > (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1 > ) > ? > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Wheeler, David M > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM > *To:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > *CAUTION*: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless > you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > ------------------------------ > > Hannes, > > I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as > optional. Below is my reasoning. > > > > In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both > classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a > standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely= , > we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are > very relevant. > > > > In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant > because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are bot= h > susceptible to Shor=E2=80=99s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to= quantum > threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model > the key (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit > mapping) than ECC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum > computer with the required number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be > available around 2025 to 2027. > > > > It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at > this point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well > informed on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations ha= ve > pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC > algorithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is > only until we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be > another 3 years at least. > > > > I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. > > Thanks, > > Dave Wheeler > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Hannes Tschofenig > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM > *To:* teep > *Subject:* [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > Hi all, > > > > The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI > algorithm. > > > > In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as > the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. > > Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choic= e > at that time. > > > > Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the > mandatory-to-implement algorithm. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://clicktime.symantec.com/3CLY9NidtGNgn5Np4Yuadoa7Vc?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F= %2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep > --000000000000f7e271059f58a05a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A device should have only mandatory algorithm, not tw= o, which will be too costly. There is a question about MTI for a TAM - shou= ld it support both ECC and RSA as mandatory algorithms? The TAM server side= mandatory support of two are feasible and most probably will support the o= ther one for devices that choose to use ECC for smaller size. In OTrP discu= ssion, we had a consensus that a TAM in OTrP will need to only support one = to meet interoperability. I think we will need to continue to make the dist= inction and explicitly specify MTI in the revised spec respectively for a T= AM and a device (TEEP Agent).

If a device choo= ses to support an optional algorithm, it will find out whether a TAM suppor= ts it via the message exchange. The support algorithm was in the initial OT= rP message protocol request message, and a TAM response signing will indica= te to a client whether the TAM can support it.

Between RSA and ECC, we considered devices that can host TAs and TEEs are = capable to do RSA, and support of RSA is more readily available in librarie= s and certificate issuance for implementation; therefore RSA was chosen ove= r ECC.

I am not sure we are ready to mandate a= PQC algorithm yet for the initial adoption, in particular, if we are count= ing here many IoT devices. I feel that we will need to address this in two = steps: current one and PQC one. The QC strength between RSA and ECC may not= be a factor as much when we plan for a PQC in recommendation list for devi= ces that are constraint for upgrade to support algorithm agility. If we do = this, ECC can become the choice while we optimize the entire protocol to be= compact, using CBOR and COSE etc.

Thanks,

Ming


On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 10:= 20 AM Hannes Tschofenig <Ha= nnes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys t= o be present on an IoT device is not practical.

=C2=A0

Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end Io= T devices it is more likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end I= oT devices may be just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures= , as Russ mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC.

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com= >; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

In software, this is easy =E2=80=A6 in hardware this= is prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE=E2=80=99s implement a si= ngle key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for at= testation, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE t= hat supports two different algorithms for attestation.

=C2=A0

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

=C2=A0

From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAf= ee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig &l= t;Hannes.Tsc= hofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

=C2=A0

-Tiru

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

CAUTION: External email. Do not click l= inks or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

=C2=A0

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

=C2=A0

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor=E2=80=99s algorithm, RSA-3K will be mo= re resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

=C2=A0

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

=C2=A0

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep= @ietf.org>
Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm<= /u>

=C2=A0

Hi all,

=C2=A0

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

=C2=A0

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

=C2=A0

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

=C2=A0

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
TEEP mailing list
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--000000000000f7e271059f58a05a-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 13:03:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243503A131B for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, PDS_BTC_ID=0.499, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d9kZFi-vYuwo for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAE3C3A1323 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id f24so7878032lfh.3 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=shiQ+YKPoru7joCJ6qy80EoSRD8+uhE1HivQkUg/AnU=; b=Z7xu0itRpAOrho4iOZgqV9Yr/YVGK+63ElZ8SIFv0HqrKbcL75MYXgr4hxPD7Zc0O/ Jz2kmvwIedyGIOboav1UuD9USk1Zq2JYn8o4icP3Wpg3C5+Qhm/MtIMRq8qOksIky2Jm hDl9TNdX8m9662XEA48Cu9sOy/bJtiTfFniFM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=shiQ+YKPoru7joCJ6qy80EoSRD8+uhE1HivQkUg/AnU=; b=VJjImfjdCmcOCV1ouenwPRzjJun+/bOw42zsfWvoPTNQGKVSdbIqs/Qo0HK1epv/56 XnfEjCmHeFZy1DtjqdZgxa+rgrdkjyT9OqLdDAVIZ9BC96o0akuqdHZBGiPKBFRic6mM ii+0iVEuN0v6Aeh73U30Ivm/UH+1im665o785ih5x37Bq5lnKYxlog3kwfhKteoK9NlK drpfRmLKt38tNrhYgAPCGZA9F0cNyNfqQGVMBvQz3VEkhTjL2uxwMmU4ZlWuR44TGeFL JnoEXDDN1scPMwDZmiT0yNE0V8PCyfbIU36ApBHminHj+fjpR25ih8kPg0ezDbuSMgfF 9s4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVnr3Bp040+8L94xqF5F3AJIjgkq3lHh6tQU2FXPcs3fOnTl/Ud Dx7G4KB1m/zy0K2yxbuRSwji5bA2gWblJG5pHo+o/W3n X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrJnbZCIeEA0NxPR/w1eLQwsAorrAOVw5dNmYbA5qLhGqkuZnP9ywHpBCvhAy43wm5LFxS2AOATbDzt6SkgHY= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:46c2:: with SMTP id p2mr11408675lfo.139.1582578191555; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mingliang Pei Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:03:03 -0800 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: Dave Thaler , "Wheeler, David M" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , teep Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f10d30059f58b214" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:03:16 -0000 --000000000000f10d30059f58b214 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Email crossed. Just note that the previous protocol version has this algorithm negotiation between a client agent and TAM, which detects optional support even if an algorithm is just optional. It helps to support algorithm agility in case some new algorithm is introduced in future. Thanks, Ming On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 12:57 PM Hannes Tschofenig < Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote: > That would be a possibility too. In the meanwhile we have three MTI > algorithms: RSA, ECC, hash-based signatures > > The issue with long-lived devices is a bit special given that some of tha= t > code ends up in ROM rather than code that can be updated. > > It might be worthwhile to reach out to device manufactures to see what > their thinking is. > > > > *From:* Dave Thaler > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 9:04 PM > *To:* Hannes Tschofenig ; Wheeler, David M < > david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > ; teep > *Subject:* RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > One option would be to have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to > pick either one. > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Hannes Tschofenig > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM > *To:* Wheeler, David M ; Konda, Tirumaleswar > Reddy ; teep > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys to be present on an Io= T > device is not practical. > > > > Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end IoT devices it is more > likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end IoT devices may be > just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures, as Russ > mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC. > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Wheeler, David M > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM > *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; > Hannes Tschofenig ; teep > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > In software, this is easy =E2=80=A6 in hardware this is prohibitive. Espe= cially > for small devices. > > Also consider that most TEE=E2=80=99s implement a single key for attestat= ion. If > you require two different types of keys for attestation, then the cost fo= r > a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE that supports two different > algorithms for attestation. > > > > I am opposed to *requiring* implementation of two different algorithms. > One must be mandatory, and one must be optional. > > > > *From:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM > *To:* Wheeler, David M ; Hannes Tschofenig < > Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep > *Subject:* RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-implement algorithms > (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1 > ) > ? > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Wheeler, David M > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM > *To:* Hannes Tschofenig ; teep > *Subject:* Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > *CAUTION*: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless > you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. > > > ------------------------------ > > Hannes, > > I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-implement and ECC as > optional. Below is my reasoning. > > > > In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we need to consider both > classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is going to be a > standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be adopted widely= , > we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are > very relevant. > > > > In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits is most relevant > because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA and ECC are bot= h > susceptible to Shor=E2=80=99s algorithm, RSA-3K will be more resistant to= quantum > threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model > the key (>10K to 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit > mapping) than ECC. There are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum > computer with the required number of qubits to break ECC-256 will be > available around 2025 to 2027. > > > > It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and make RSA optional at > this point. I know that this is counter to many views who are not well > informed on the quantum attacks, however US government recommendations ha= ve > pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC > algorithms over ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is > only until we have fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be > another 3 years at least. > > > > I could provide a more detailed briefing on this subject if necessary. > > Thanks, > > Dave Wheeler > > > > *From:* TEEP *On Behalf Of *Hannes Tschofenig > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM > *To:* teep > *Subject:* [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm > > > > Hi all, > > > > The other topic I would like to bring to your attention is about the MTI > algorithm. > > > > In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algorithm (with SHA256 as > the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement. > > Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may have been a good choic= e > at that time. > > > > Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC the > mandatory-to-implement algorithm. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Ciao > > Hannes > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th= e > information in any medium. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > > https://clicktime.symantec.com/317YVsDp4qHubEz1EJDqPDK7Vc?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F= %2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fteep > --000000000000f10d30059f58b214 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Email crossed. Just note that the previous protocol versio= n has this algorithm negotiation between a client agent and TAM, which dete= cts optional support even if an algorithm is just optional. It helps to sup= port algorithm agility in case some new algorithm is introduced in future. = Thanks, Ming

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 12:57 PM Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> = wrote:

That would be a possibility too. In the meanwhile we= have three MTI algorithms: RSA, ECC, hash-based signatures

The issue with long-lived devices is a bit special g= iven that some of that code ends up in ROM rather than code that can be upd= ated.

It might be worthwhile to reach out to device manufa= ctures to see what their thinking is.

=C2=A0

From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:04 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; Wheeler, David M &l= t;david.m.wh= eeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Ko= nda@McAfee.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

One option woul= d be to have both MTI at a TAM, and allow a TEEP Agent to pick either one.<= u>

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 10:20 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Konda, Tirumaleswar = Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

I agree that requiring both ECC and RSA-based keys t= o be present on an IoT device is not practical.

=C2=A0

Maybe we could come up with profiles. For low-end Io= T devices it is more likely to use ECC today. Non-IoT devices or high-end I= oT devices may be just fine with RSA (for use today). Hash-based signatures= , as Russ mentioned, is probably the story for the future when dealing with PQC.

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:32 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

In software, this is easy =E2=80=A6 in hardware this= is prohibitive. Especially for small devices.

Also consider that most TEE=E2=80=99s implement a si= ngle key for attestation. If you require two different types of keys for at= testation, then the cost for a TEE goes way up. I am not aware of ANY TEE t= hat supports two different algorithms for attestation.

=C2=A0

I am opposed to requiring implementation of t= wo different algorithms. One must be mandatory, and one must be optional.

=C2=A0

From: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@Mc= Afee.com>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Wheeler, David M <david.m.wheeler@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig &l= t;Hannes.Tsc= hofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

Why not mention both RSA and ECC as mandatory-to-imp= lement algorithms (similar to TLS 1.3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-9.1) ?

=C2=A0

-Tiru

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Wheeler, David M
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 8:53 PM
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; teep <teep@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm=

=C2=A0

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recogniz= e the sender and know the content is safe.

=C2=A0

Hannes,

I am in favor of keeping RSA as the mandatory-to-imp= lement and ECC as optional. Below is my reasoning.

=C2=A0

In choosing a mandatory-to-implement algorithm, we n= eed to consider both classical attacks and quantum attacks. Given TEEP is g= oing to be a standard, and may take a few years for TEEP to begin to be ado= pted widely, we will find ourselves close to the 2030 horizon when quantum attacks are very relevant.

=C2=A0

In the quantum attack model, the number of key bits = is most relevant because the key must be modeled in qubits. While both RSA = and ECC are both susceptible to Shor=E2=80=99s algorithm, RSA-3K will be mo= re resistant to quantum threats than ECC, because it will take a larger quantum computer to model the key (>10K t= o 100K qubits depending on logical to physical qubit mapping) than ECC. The= re are (optimistic?) estimates that a quantum computer with the required nu= mber of qubits to break ECC-256 will be available around 2025 to 2027.

=C2=A0

It seems imprudent to me to put ECC as mandatory and= make RSA optional at this point. I know that this is counter to many views= who are not well informed on the quantum attacks, however US government re= commendations have pulled Suite-B (i.e. use of ECC) as mandatory and returned to RSA and IFC algorithms over= ECC due to the larger key size. This preference to RSA is only until we ha= ve fully quantum resistant algorithms, but this weill be another 3 years at= least.

=C2=A0

I could provide a more detailed briefing on this sub= ject if necessary.

Thanks,

Dave Wheeler

=C2=A0

From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 6:19 AM
To: teep <teep= @ietf.org>
Subject: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm<= /u>

=C2=A0

Hi all,

=C2=A0

The other topic I would like to bring to your attent= ion is about the MTI algorithm.

=C2=A0

In OTrP RSA was the mandatory to use asymmetric algo= rithm (with SHA256 as the hash function) and ECC was optional to implement.

Given that OTrP was developed around 2015 this may h= ave been a good choice at that time.

=C2=A0

Today, I believe it is more appropriate to make ECC = the mandatory-to-implement algorithm.

=C2=A0

Thoughts?

=C2=A0

Ciao

Hannes

=C2=A0

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any= attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th= e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl= ose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th= ank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and a= ny attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not = the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it f= or any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
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15.20.2750.021; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:28:20 +0000 From: Jeremy O'Donoghue To: Mingliang Pei , "Hannes Tschofenig" CC: teep , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Wheeler, David M" , Dave Thaler Thread-Topic: [Teep] Default, mandatory-to-implement algorithm Thread-Index: AdXrFCSa1FLvz1rcTB60y8brCFYE/wAEDvyQAAJx9SAAAm0egAABsJdgAAO5W+AAAamT4AAAaKaAAADh54A= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:28:20 +0000 Message-ID: <356728F7-C482-446C-8C50-5FDB4FBF2672@qti.qualcomm.com> References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com; x-originating-ip: [86.150.252.3] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ff441862-4696-4b00-72d2-08d7b9707869 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--_000_356728F7C482446C8C505FDB4FBF2672qtiqualcommcom_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 16:26:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B043A1645 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:26:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UW9oRUcMqIrV for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC9DA3A163E for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6277D38981 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 19:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33453C79 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 19:26:46 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: teep In-Reply-To: References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:26:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I think that this thread has gone rather sideways. 1) the TAM is, as I understand it, a service that runs in a rather non-constrained place, often out on the Internet (although there are exceptions), and is easily upgraded. It needs to deal with algorithms for the family of devices that it needs to talk to, for the lifetime of those devices. It primarily will be processing evidence from the devices. It may be producing attestations for other (unconstrained) relying parties. If necessary, the TAM can be upgraded by inserting DVDs into a server. 2) The TEEP Agent is a piece of software which runs inside/manages the TEE, which processes firmware (hopefully, in the form of SUIT manifests) which need to be loaded into a TEE. The TE-Agent is not trivially upgradeble, but I believe that it can be updated. It may need to have trust anchors for the various TAMs that it might talk to built in, and there may be software updates required for the TE-Agent when the TAMs do things like roll certificate authorities. But, the TEEP-Agent, effectively, is the "bootloader" for the Trusted Apps (TAx). (It does not boot itself) The TAM will need to sign the SUIT manifests with an algorithm (and key, etc.) which the TEEP Agent can process, and this can be adapted such that different devices (or the same device on different days) get different algorithms. The TEEP Agent therefore never needs to speak more than one algorithm, and we can upgrade the TEEP Agent to support new things without flag days. 3) I think that TEEP Agent will be started/validated by a highly trusted part of the boot process. I suspect that only the manufacturer of the silicon will get to provide this software. (I'd like to be wrong here, btw) Updates to the TEEP Agent will be critical when a quantum breakthrough occurs. It is therefore *this* piece which needs to have hash-based signatures. While the Hash-based signature themselves are big, the trust-anchors are just SHA256 hashes, which are 32-bytes in size, so this is not a major commitment of fuses. Putting an ECDSA key in here that is expected to last decades seems very short-sighted. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5UacUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUjzAgAhac07nqJBA3XW8+bjhG5Vk+kfQpccq7xIuIoP2hGolOyM/rduTuzPi4+ EuK68/3YaG7JMqC1e9vAEwtGrT1wHWyEa2kQo8Pq7zl9qPd+HNEAjWFLKuCw8jEi PoQ51ukVDdsnHlTmxbn5hFI71GJ3qvwAsghP2qc8ParKXu4Mz97Tv05oIIDNm5du rGtLkPzSSvv7y9nAm36bJactl18zy3S/i8uL/rN5DeC9SR4VHs6scqgHFCd+Metn 9gbr4yO04A8u/fgQHVCbC4MlO/rvKFxi3dki1rTM4Weo5lOnkkH1eIYnX1ncKc5S zgmMrUSTOCVvH6RMHFKPV65cozrUrg== =J2if -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 23:51:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949BB3A02BE for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 23:51:50 -0800 (PST) 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IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBU RUVQIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBURUVQQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdGVlcA0K From nobody Tue Feb 25 00:40:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB123A0A26 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:40:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mheJwhJGitCX for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6941A3A0A25 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 00:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from client-0236.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0236.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48RXSm1NG8zyWt; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:40:40 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:40:39 +0100 Cc: Henk Birkholz , Hannes Tschofenig , Konda Tirumaleswar Reddy , Nicolae Paladi , teep , Mingliang Pei X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 604312839.513575-4e955726787c58d94b78468c69077eaa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <59627424-2BE9-4E52-8F57-B7853D71023C@ri.se> <74f54d9a-9590-3a13-abb0-f88ce575f61d@sit.fraunhofer.de> To: =?utf-8?B?5aGa5pys5piO?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] JSON/JOSE vs. CBOR/COSE X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:40:45 -0000 On 2020-02-25, at 09:37, =E5=A1=9A=E6=9C=AC=E6=98=8E = wrote: >=20 > Also, during the hackathon at Berlin, we did have a code to show the = contents of > teem messages in the sources but at the end we had to use WireShark to = debug > when we could not figure out why it is giving some of the parsing = errors for received message, > so having text representation in the binary packet helped the = prototyping. Wireshark has a CBOR dissector. Maybe we should collect some information about how to best use tools = like Wireshark for debugging and diagnostics. 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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:25:15 +0100 From: To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'teep'" References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <17338.1582590406@localhost> In-Reply-To: <17338.1582590406@localhost> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:25:10 +0100 Message-ID: <033501d5ed79$ba70fb90$2f52f2b0$@gmx.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGejm8EEwGYNUc1oby0zKOy5sIsNwJJLQBHAlfDhysCDelSwAK5JQWcAbPvQRwCiRGAeqgwrP4w Content-Language: en-us X-CheckRecipientChecked: true x-ts-tracking-id: 04350e97-9499-4070-84ad-376097aa0aed.0 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:vrzAvF9o5wz6o9+XazHtcSYydp/k1VjiDuHltYXbUrTWODdw4Px 1DUiU3eQeV63/52Qh8Bfj7ihqE7iY8p2nzHTvJdkoZ7BsVbMP9UBA4vn6OXCX8EC2ng3K8P RGbej+TeQEC9y+KMJ1D2cQT4GsLiOpQg8Q8auWOLxvOHJIliLpZSNj7V+fbwH7ZEX96xEna 0jQtY4cwV9JnYe6KIw+3g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:zma/cwnzdcM=:+MF2OYD0YVgsFf7nrbK1zA j0DOIYC8nO3PwtOQoP+QZk/92DiHJwYwAoydFD1UdQ3sPQAJsRq42E1IX7YyUn4auy4qszlFP Fx3xyNff61yxwmyhc5nc1IAp2BaIAgbcMHSDr0Ws/psMsBtIpUx26vvfiWm0bdYiOFN3Eh4r2 pn0BJ7ZZEyNNuwKhfOP7pdwjXT8XLaOda2DMfmBxL9N2CiWEGkpvdWYCp2sw5ckPo1vQMOo49 qX2J3BN/sG8/kDEhejY+DNsksz+qemiuGcW5jRzkXB7p8mtj/T2eDkZVtpcoISZz2YcV1QOtI jg3/u2DyHWSD2TtFWZf0gh285rcJbkwNxQrLtWnCwuEtivRhylh/rWJ/KZXjqLAg27UTCVA3a XNRuG67/4GQGm0ZKgoNfZEu969gyoShuZ6H86yKU4yo8mWZcj5lFyrnJp0IPoxNIU45lzGm/s sc1LL+5tAGiyywvTA9iOGnQjLFoZcunUls4R7UMgMIPVmxHYgsw//5oeKrmawGSebyYT8y2vo GMnhQYgCit2kkk9DS3qQfadt4HE7yVQ0OGR02r+oOaVf07sfr6SZf0oqWQnE6DSdc9CTp5xEk l9p59sNkD7Kr1htXXF9yip2ORe77Yf1K/zNreVdGhkwKh1Bx1XrLMXLvCFcwCLFl4wV1EyPlB qHxWSDoy9P0ywKO1e2Y7cdxGDifYJeNajDVU69zbUqyRU2SBb191rSWaGmQJ78AXLngAljU6V YnUS2roIy53FOP0dnd3XfmSYvQo/DGeCyK++5n/JMXqZO6DdC2o/2O+a/4JAzD1WjL/p+/Z7j TTLW05ZkQA6Ppq5mZuSUzxl5LXUNsjtK2fUDiOt403TuLLrP7Km0BgRgL4SUjH7MnejPQAtCK X4h9c/2PXYBQfZnKmbxRPSNFT1bUPWqT8UkWZGQNE9ldHdXsq5IQ/GSl8MXhwgid1386uNNEF S0eEi13XZYWtVcjWRxQ8DFe8UUK4oqjimLCuEhruQaDlCIPaFE6s3jAfmJv0Myo6NslUiJUCX 4r9y6W98vUiqTcsAiHBT0d8K6MNFqQJkG+KP5N0S+l2E8TeFhxkFaGh5sjo4DHxqbqN4ZsNjY 9c40enxq4rGc9DQbeMnFQ0E+MZDPoHagXkM7TnPAg5DkQWnaNfbNGQuXo7gi3y3TKSBveiRbW bkG9R2CVxrWSYC5CT4W8UoSGUCxH9dgewB83cHYGx+TMMqGK0rAqTtMAmAO6M+rdEgyHeO8Ms y5T2zJAcwJ6+T6iJQ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:30:45 -0000 Hi Michael, Nice write-up. There is indeed the question where the TEEP Agent sits inside the TEE and, more importantly, which parts can be updated. In our discussions at the hackathon we have been talking about implementing a TEEP Agent as a TA, or as a pseudo-TA or system TA (as it is sometimes called) that has the same privileges as the secure world OS. While we haven't made a decision about this aspect and need further investigation one aspect is clear: the manifests need to be verified before the TAs can be executed. For example, for the STM32MP1 (which we had at the hackathon) the keys for this verification have their anchor in the secure boot. I showed a picture of it in the tutorial presentation. At least today, you are not changing credential types in the chain. At the bottom of that chain is the code in ROM (at least for a production device -- not so for a development board). Does this change your view about the issue? Ciao Hannes =2D----Original Message----- From: TEEP On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 1:27 AM To: teep Subject: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP I think that this thread has gone rather sideways. 1) the TAM is, as I understand it, a service that runs in a rather non-constrained place, often out on the Internet (although there are exceptions), and is easily upgraded. It needs to deal with algorithms for the family of devices that it needs to talk to, for the lifetime of tho= se devices. It primarily will be processing evidence from the devices. It may be producing attestations for other (unconstrained) relying parties. If necessary, the TAM can be upgraded by inserting DVDs into a server. 2) The TEEP Agent is a piece of software which runs inside/manages the TEE= , which processes firmware (hopefully, in the form of SUIT manifests) which need to be loaded into a TEE. The TE-Agent is not trivially upgradeble, but I believe that it can be updated. It may need to have trust anchors for the various TAMs that it might ta= lk to built in, and there may be software updates required for the TE-Agen= t when the TAMs do things like roll certificate authorities. But, the TEEP-Agent, effectively, is the "bootloader" for the Trusted Apps (TAx). (It does not boot itself) The TAM will need to sign the SUIT manifests with an algorithm (and key= , etc.) which the TEEP Agent can process, and this can be adapted such that different devices (or the same device on different days) get different algorithms. The TEEP Agent therefore never needs to speak more than one algorithm, and we can upgrade the TEEP Agent to support new things without flag days. 3) I think that TEEP Agent will be started/validated by a highly trusted part of the boot process. I suspect that only the manufacturer of the silic= on will get to provide this software. (I'd like to be wrong here, btw) Updates to the TEEP Agent will be critical when a quantum breakthrough occurs. It is therefore *this* piece which needs to have hash-based signatures. While the Hash-based signature themselves are big, the trust-anchors ar= e just SHA256 hashes, which are 32-bytes in size, so this is not a major commitment o= f fuses. Putting an ECDSA key in here that is expected to last decades seems very short-sighted. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:08:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE643A0D9C for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:08:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLPYKBrslOio for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D0253A0DAD for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD74338982; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E358ADB0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:08:33 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "'teep'" cc: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net, Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <033501d5ed79$ba70fb90$2f52f2b0$@gmx.net> References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <17338.1582590406@localhost> <033501d5ed79$ba70fb90$2f52f2b0$@gmx.net> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:08:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain wrote: > There is indeed the question where the TEEP Agent sits inside the TEE and, > more importantly, which parts can be updated. In our discussions at the > hackathon we have been talking about implementing a TEEP Agent as a TA, or > as a pseudo-TA or system TA (as it is sometimes called) that has the same > privileges as the secure world OS. While we haven't made a decision about > this aspect and need further investigation one aspect is clear: the > manifests need to be verified before the TAs can be executed. okay, This seems consistent with my understanding. > For example, for the STM32MP1 (which we had at the hackathon) the keys for > this verification have their anchor in the secure boot. Fair enough: so how does the software get verified/updated in a post-quantum world? > I showed a picture > of it in the tutorial presentation. At least today, you are not changing > credential types in the chain. At the bottom of that chain is the code in > ROM (at least for a production device -- not so for a development board). So is the TEEP Agent updatable at all? > Does this change your view about the issue? I don't think so. I think that we deal with the Post-Quantum upgrade by upgrading the TEEP Agent with new algorithms, and it's the TEEP Agent upgrade that we need to plan for with Hash-Based Signatures. > -----Original Message----- > From: TEEP On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 1:27 AM > To: teep > Subject: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP > I think that this thread has gone rather sideways. > 1) the TAM is, as I understand it, a service that runs in a rather > non-constrained place, often out on the Internet (although there are > exceptions), and is easily upgraded. It needs to deal with algorithms > for > the family of devices that it needs to talk to, for the lifetime of those > devices. It primarily will be processing evidence from the devices. > It may be producing attestations for other (unconstrained) relying > parties. > If necessary, the TAM can be upgraded by inserting DVDs into a server. > 2) The TEEP Agent is a piece of software which runs inside/manages the TEE, > which processes firmware (hopefully, in the form of SUIT > manifests) which need to be loaded into a TEE. The TE-Agent is not > trivially upgradeble, but I believe that it can be updated. > It may need to have trust anchors for the various TAMs that it might talk > to built in, and there may be software updates required for the TE-Agent > when the TAMs do things like roll certificate authorities. > But, the TEEP-Agent, effectively, is the "bootloader" for the Trusted > Apps (TAx). > (It does not boot itself) > The TAM will need to sign the SUIT manifests with an algorithm (and key, > etc.) > which the TEEP Agent can process, and this can be adapted such that > different devices (or the same device on different days) get different > algorithms. > The TEEP Agent therefore never needs to speak more than one algorithm, > and > we can upgrade the TEEP Agent to support new things without flag days. > 3) I think that TEEP Agent will be started/validated by a highly trusted > part > of the boot process. I suspect that only the manufacturer of the silicon > will get to provide this software. (I'd like to be wrong here, btw) > Updates to the TEEP Agent will be critical when a quantum breakthrough > occurs. > It is therefore *this* piece which needs to have hash-based signatures. > While the Hash-based signature themselves are big, the trust-anchors are > just SHA256 > hashes, which are 32-bytes in size, so this is not a major commitment of > fuses. Putting an ECDSA key in here that is expected to last decades > seems very short-sighted. > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= > IPv6 IoT consulting =- -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl5YPeEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVNLQf+IqAXlBTUpau2q6sjoq4YmkjHM3z4nilkjtFmEJ1aA1/1MMBpuscVG0xh xjDwb81G1tVWB4I3B2QBAWiszUFwGARXeGVaMgfq8SvcaezrYtZMYjSc/g48qtuD 0WCrECclXaIW+m+qyCHlzyHSMqGoSYSDlKNk0kUaJwwj57qA2+Jog+hpAp0vOeTW MHdp/FH+33hI+P1URTatP5AwqlnwkaS1VxM+aKJ/Cc4WEh2TQq9GjdT/AtXxp7g1 O8aAWGRCtl5Nu8b+69zVIBg+HCQ7aYyiY4/y0lZ80xN0Bwbujsl7SiL0jDkSW318 qpRaRU4I9yx0U7H47nkCDGU2rqS1cg== =Zics -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:40:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B403A0E7C for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U93x0t2Tz-ip for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 733663A0E5A for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id o28so1156862qkj.9 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=0J772rklF0+UhbiU1IvqwBmKBoJzuRQX/4mmGmhyyfw=; b=HwG0tS3hTypBgjo+lMGLKQ73rsygUlidcXvTZc+49boUkh1qDt26GE1pi+uzZT8qo+ 0QqdF2vVqSm3AG4fBH3PmOWqzIK35nlUzEjlxwmvOc3sH9HQt08j0eW8mT6ZuR58Z+H1 2Qg/jBaBoYvmSY/4cRyjomD+vdRGOU+LaatvXVv0JsW1BEybiPyHfFQWEa12U+VNGOOv JAnmfUrcSVJ/drzMw8r2U/p78QJ7Z8gne/wDMRzACsCWKbIpTpTTOmNBkYH5fcIcGwLN brBEdSGqlrTLr0TjZ650eDwkVkhCQCC9D+dDZpn4sLOw6J7aoDiULXEczBD/QSGzNM8+ tdbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=0J772rklF0+UhbiU1IvqwBmKBoJzuRQX/4mmGmhyyfw=; b=NwgTHIxX14aE9MiAo2AnmsN8R7Nat6JCgO6V53vUJyAmNmUQ4jPJJvrq1lYvwe/KB+ sfOUhlCQ2ZpdUZ4X2wqNZjxo/29IytUoY9YsR2WdmSt2DoEQNjVqswmpsezq4+tsXrMP Mo+3c/7hKSV5JDgU6jw2LwlXHRiFW+xIfq2gYzyoH6z86jJavfgMJyM10um6NTRJB/oD NzY+k67sFvlyxBF7cxy3pjcdaVp5wG3Ep00w4p0MbK2W+3JY/my6IvCqWt+q7l0YZJnx CvROWkMVE/E1dT6xOsgsrMfDiPH6EqI2hehKYQy3uDZS8tSpitWCQ3jpHqlu865ioeNn bVag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXOJtANHQsh50uK5jJd/AmgmXkXV6i+ncR/dsK1Urp/kov+rK/C xkokZPCKl7pSkJvDNKqXvMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqysd0vLqASN4NQlfDiHVf3MSp/Har/ulXPkfIVCwOP6NVsN1KNuw4LYRgca0YqWAFw3kIwhjQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1435:: with SMTP id k21mr1696099qkj.299.1582843211496; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fea8:6a0:1a5a:4c7a:8a91:7a:145a? ([2607:fea8:6a0:1a5a:4c7a:8a91:7a:145a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x41sm3927846qtj.52.2020.02.27.14.40.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:40:10 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Richardson , 'teep' Cc: Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net, Russ Housley References: <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A128@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <0627F5240443D2498FAA65332EE46C843B85A40E@CRSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com> <17338.1582590406@localhost> <033501d5ed79$ba70fb90$2f52f2b0$@gmx.net> <27985.1582841313@localhost> From: Rene Struik Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:40:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <27985.1582841313@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------917002CD3431131B83AB20BC" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:40:23 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------917002CD3431131B83AB20BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear colleagues: One thing that unfortunately does not seem to sink-in is that one has to plan for change (aka "algorithm agility"), no matter which algorithms one uses. This is true should quantum computers one day indeed see the light (for it is very unlikely that PQ algorithms one picks are invulnerable to all future attack avenues ad infinum, even if one day test of time will have convinced people of theoretical PQ-virtue) and is also true today (see the many-many vulnerabilities embedded with past IETF protocols one has had to deal with). One cannot expect a sole winner here. Please heed to advice of [1] (which, I believe, is even a Best Current Practice...). Ref: [1] RFC 7696 - Guidelines for Cryptographic Algorithm Agility and Selecting Mandatory-to-Implement Algorithms (November 2015) Rene BTW1 - maybe an authentic append-only tree using block chain technology populated with roots of trust could be useful for transitionary effects. BW2 - since algorithms are composed of simple arithmetic operations, one can certainly embed some of this in hardware, to support, e.g., some primitives underlying R-LWE, SIDH, etc. (without (!) customization to speedy values, since one wishes to keep this flexible and generic). On 2/27/2020 5:08 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > wrote: > > There is indeed the question where the TEEP Agent sits inside the TEE and, > > more importantly, which parts can be updated. In our discussions at the > > hackathon we have been talking about implementing a TEEP Agent as a TA, or > > as a pseudo-TA or system TA (as it is sometimes called) that has the same > > privileges as the secure world OS. While we haven't made a decision about > > this aspect and need further investigation one aspect is clear: the > > manifests need to be verified before the TAs can be executed. > > okay, This seems consistent with my understanding. > > > For example, for the STM32MP1 (which we had at the hackathon) the keys for > > this verification have their anchor in the secure boot. > > Fair enough: so how does the software get verified/updated in a post-quantum world? > > > I showed a picture > > of it in the tutorial presentation. At least today, you are not changing > > credential types in the chain. At the bottom of that chain is the code in > > ROM (at least for a production device -- not so for a development board). > > So is the TEEP Agent updatable at all? > > > Does this change your view about the issue? > > I don't think so. > > I think that we deal with the Post-Quantum upgrade by upgrading the TEEP > Agent with new algorithms, and it's the TEEP Agent upgrade that we need to > plan for with Hash-Based Signatures. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TEEP On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 1:27 AM > > To: teep > > Subject: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP > > > > I think that this thread has gone rather sideways. > > > 1) the TAM is, as I understand it, a service that runs in a rather > > non-constrained place, often out on the Internet (although there are > > exceptions), and is easily upgraded. It needs to deal with algorithms > > for > > the family of devices that it needs to talk to, for the lifetime of those > > devices. It primarily will be processing evidence from the devices. > > It may be producing attestations for other (unconstrained) relying > > parties. > > If necessary, the TAM can be upgraded by inserting DVDs into a server. > > > 2) The TEEP Agent is a piece of software which runs inside/manages the TEE, > > which processes firmware (hopefully, in the form of SUIT > > manifests) which need to be loaded into a TEE. The TE-Agent is not > > trivially upgradeble, but I believe that it can be updated. > > It may need to have trust anchors for the various TAMs that it might talk > > to built in, and there may be software updates required for the TE-Agent > > when the TAMs do things like roll certificate authorities. > > But, the TEEP-Agent, effectively, is the "bootloader" for the Trusted > > Apps (TAx). > > (It does not boot itself) > > > The TAM will need to sign the SUIT manifests with an algorithm (and key, > > etc.) > > which the TEEP Agent can process, and this can be adapted such that > > different devices (or the same device on different days) get different > > algorithms. > > The TEEP Agent therefore never needs to speak more than one algorithm, > > and > > we can upgrade the TEEP Agent to support new things without flag days. > > > 3) I think that TEEP Agent will be started/validated by a highly trusted > > part > > of the boot process. I suspect that only the manufacturer of the silicon > > will get to provide this software. (I'd like to be wrong here, btw) > > Updates to the TEEP Agent will be critical when a quantum breakthrough > > occurs. > > It is therefore *this* piece which needs to have hash-based signatures. > > While the Hash-based signature themselves are big, the trust-anchors are > > just SHA256 > > hashes, which are 32-bytes in size, so this is not a major commitment of > > fuses. Putting an ECDSA key in here that is expected to last decades > > seems very short-sighted. > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= > > IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TEEP mailing list > TEEP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep -- email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867 --------------917002CD3431131B83AB20BC Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear colleagues:

One thing that unfortunately does not seem to sink-in is that one has to plan for change (aka "algorithm agility"), no matter which algorithms one uses. This is true should quantum computers one day indeed see the light (for it is very unlikely that PQ algorithms one picks are invulnerable to all future attack avenues ad infinum, even if one day test of time will have convinced people of theoretical PQ-virtue) and is also true today (see the many-many vulnerabilities embedded with past IETF protocols one has had to deal with).

One cannot expect a sole winner here. Please heed to advice of [1] (which, I believe, is even a Best Current Practice...).

Ref: [1] RFC 7696 - Guidelines for Cryptographic Algorithm Agility and Selecting Mandatory-to-Implement Algorithms (November 2015)

Rene

BTW1 - maybe an authentic append-only tree using block chain technology populated with roots of trust could be useful for transitionary effects.

BW2 - since algorithms are composed of simple arithmetic operations, one can certainly embed some of this in hardware, to support, e.g., some primitives underlying R-LWE, SIDH, etc. (without (!) customization to speedy values, since one wishes to keep this flexible and generic).

On 2/27/2020 5:08 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
<Hannes.Tschofenig@gmx.net> wrote:
    > There is indeed the question where the TEEP Agent sits inside the TEE and,
    > more importantly, which parts can be updated. In our discussions at the
    > hackathon we have been talking about implementing a TEEP Agent as a TA, or
    > as a pseudo-TA or system TA (as it is sometimes called) that has the same
    > privileges as the secure world OS. While we haven't made a decision about
    > this aspect and need further investigation one aspect is clear: the
    > manifests need to be verified before the TAs can be executed.

okay, This seems consistent with my understanding.

    > For example, for the STM32MP1 (which we had at the hackathon) the keys for
    > this verification have their anchor in the secure boot.

Fair enough: so how does the software get verified/updated in a post-quantum world?

    > I showed a picture
    > of it in the tutorial presentation. At least today, you are not changing
    > credential types in the chain. At the bottom of that chain is the code in
    > ROM (at least for a production device -- not so for a development board).

So is the TEEP Agent updatable at all?

    > Does this change your view about the issue?

I don't think so.

I think that we deal with the Post-Quantum upgrade by upgrading the TEEP
Agent with new algorithms, and it's the TEEP Agent upgrade that we need to
plan for with Hash-Based Signatures.


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: TEEP <teep-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
    > Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 1:27 AM
    > To: teep <teep@ietf.org>
    > Subject: [Teep] algorithms for different parts of TEEP


    > I think that this thread has gone rather sideways.

    > 1) the TAM is, as I understand it, a service that runs in a rather
    > non-constrained place, often out on the Internet (although there are
    > exceptions), and is easily upgraded.  It needs to deal with algorithms
    > for
    > the family of devices that it needs to talk to, for the lifetime of those
    > devices.  It primarily will be processing evidence from the devices.
    > It may be producing attestations for other (unconstrained) relying
    > parties.
    > If necessary, the TAM can be upgraded by inserting DVDs into a server.

    > 2) The TEEP Agent is a piece of software which runs inside/manages the TEE,
    > which processes firmware (hopefully, in the form of SUIT
    > manifests) which need to be loaded into a TEE.  The TE-Agent is not
    > trivially upgradeble, but I believe that it can be updated.
    > It may need to have trust anchors for the various TAMs that it might talk
    > to built in, and there may be software updates required for the TE-Agent
    > when the TAMs do things like roll certificate authorities.
    > But, the TEEP-Agent, effectively, is the "bootloader" for the Trusted
    > Apps (TAx).
    > (It does not boot itself)

    > The TAM will need to sign the SUIT manifests with an algorithm (and key,
    > etc.)
    > which the TEEP Agent can process, and this can be adapted such that
    > different devices (or the same device on different days) get different
    > algorithms.
    > The TEEP Agent therefore never needs to speak more than one algorithm,
    > and
    > we can upgrade the TEEP Agent to support new things without flag days.

    > 3) I think that TEEP Agent will be started/validated by a highly trusted
    > part
    > of the boot process.  I suspect that only the manufacturer of the silicon
    > will get to provide this software. (I'd like to be wrong here, btw)
    > Updates to the TEEP Agent will be critical when a quantum breakthrough
    > occurs.
    > It is therefore *this* piece which needs to have hash-based signatures.
    > While the Hash-based signature themselves are big, the trust-anchors are
    > just SHA256
    > hashes, which are 32-bytes in size, so this is not a major commitment of
    > fuses.   Putting an ECDSA key in here that is expected to last decades
    > seems very short-sighted.

    > --
    > Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -=
    > IPv6 IoT consulting =-


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-





_______________________________________________
TEEP mailing list
TEEP@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teep



-- 
email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik
cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 | US: +1 (415) 287-3867
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X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292930721.19931.12211198344533533899@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:07 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] teep - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:35:14 -0000 Dear Nancy Cam-Winget, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. teep Session 1 (2:00 requested) Tuesday, 24 March 2020, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Regency E size: 150 --------------------------------------------- teep Session 2 (2:00 requested) Tuesday, 24 March 2020, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530 Room Name: Georgia B size: 150 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/teep.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Trusted Execution Environment Provisioning Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Nancy Cam-Winget Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: suit rats mile intarea v6ops 6man tls Technology Overlap: cose Key Participant Conflict: oauth People who must be present: Nancy Cam-Winget Tirumaleswar Reddy.K Benjamin Kaduk Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 28 15:15:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: teep@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCB33A0D60; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uYAihD64XdsD; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 201B13A0D71; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:15:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.42.113] (p548DC4D8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.196.216]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48Tlkd56jtz181C; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 00:15:21 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 604624521.5856169-3b7cc02e4f875fd18b8b933fdebd5d58 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: <2C964FDF-3AF5-4699-A2B0-3F015C1E17C3@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 00:15:21 +0100 To: suit@ietf.org, teep , din@irtf.org, rats@ietf.org, lake@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [Teep] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF107: FINAL AGENDA X-BeenThere: teep@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: A Protocol for Dynamic Trusted Execution Environment Enablement List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:15:26 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the FINAL AGENDA for IETF107. Remember that, occasionally, futher agenda changes do happen. Not much change from the DRAFT AGENDA. SUIT has moved to Friday, now on top of 6lo. The other security/not-so-much-security conflicts in the IoT space remain or have just been rearranged: ROLL vs. COSE/TEEP, LPWAN vs. SAAG, and LAKE vs. RATS, WPACK vs. ACE; as are MODEL-T vs. CORE and TXAUTH vs. T2TRG. (A lot of the rooms have changed.) All times are in PDT =3D=3D UTC - 7 hours. Note that North America is = on DST already during the IETF, while Europe will only go there on March 29, so we are in the three-week period of DST confusion (where the US is one hour closer to the EU than the rest of the year). (Pure UTC times at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc are useful for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, March 20, 2020 0900-1800 T2TRG/W3C WoT Workshop = https://github.com/t2trg/2020-03-vancouver SATURDAY, March 21, 2020 0830-2200 IETF Hackathon - Plaza Ballroom SUNDAY, March 22, 2020 0830-1600 IETF Hackathon - Plaza Ballroom 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Regency A/B/C/D 1800-2000 Hot RFC Lightning Talks -- Plaza B/C MONDAY, March 23, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Regency D ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Regency C INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Plaza B/C IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency C ART webtrans WebTransport WG Regency D IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Georgia B SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Regency E SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Plaza A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Regency F INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Regency C IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Regency E OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Plaza A RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Plaza B/C SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Plaza A RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Georgia B SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Plaza B/C SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Regency C TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting TUESDAY, March 24, 2020 0830-0945 Side Meetings / Open Time Regency C tdd Technology Deep Dive 1000-1200 Morning Session I Regency D IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Regency F SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Regency E SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Plaza B/C TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency C INT masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over = QUIC Encryption BOF Regency D IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Georgia A RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Regency E SEC emu EAP Method Update WG Georgia B SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Regency F ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Plaza A IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Georgia B SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG Regency C TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Regency C INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Georgia B INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Georgia A RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Regency D RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Regency E RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Plaza B/C TSV quic QUIC WG WEDNESDAY, March 25, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Georgia B IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Georgia A RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Regency D SEC txauth Transactional Authorization and = Delegation BOF Plaza B/C TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Regency C ART wpack Web Packaging BOF Regency E IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Georgia A SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Plaza A ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Georgia A IAB model-t Internet Threat Model Plaza B/C RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting 1710-1940 IETF Plenary - Regency C/D/E/F THURSDAY, March 26, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Georgia A ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Georgia B INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET Georgia B INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Regency E IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Regency C SEC privacypass privacy-pass BOF Plaza B/C TSV taps Transport Services WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Regency E INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Regency F OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Regency D SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Regency C ART httpbis HTTP WG Regency E INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Regency D IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Plaza B/C RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Plaza A ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Regency D OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG FRIDAY, March 27, 2020 1000-1200 Morning Session I Regency F INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Regency E SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG Regency C SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Plaza B/C TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1220-1350 Morning Session II Regency D ART httpbis HTTP WG Regency C IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Regency F SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Plaza A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG