From melinda.shore@gmail.com Fri Jul 6 10:47:17 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FF821F86D7 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:47:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHpzzNmlHKd4 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E9A21F86F1 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2012 10:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbcwy7 with SMTP id wy7so15255909pbc.31 for ; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:47:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wHn3ImRr7PQjjzGjvDe89mET0ZOo8ITaWmwK0fUc9S4=; b=UnVxhR1KyhHr3NzzQti1JzafGnLwNs/2ZCvSlEgQ1j30acTnQfDtznLouc1jFTEUem GqLetFknd0rYkmL/vpvJ6XUCxjWA35S47NW7R2DQVM7wl13xa9PAdhfF9pyWUApPCnBh zlKC4Ro8rEev0P+c57zxPosie1y9JE2UItCp/vS2fCuQ/fr+swEVjm9BM6Q+TssU8qSO 5IKoak7zNXZVwi2m+K5whCxjpbk5SxGS1TFl9g/JO01yszTPx1w9dB1+O/YHC999b0uy 6xeILtY01VqNuByRsn77TOqJmBHCVgC03XhVCkl/3/I2rBVfeMJHInGDuw2Al1yiZzSH UJlQ== Received: by 10.68.125.228 with SMTP id mt4mr38710880pbb.21.1341596854187; Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex.local (66-230-81-117-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [66.230.81.117]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ot4sm22247298pbb.65.2012.07.06.10.47.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FF724B3.1010509@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 09:47:31 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [tig-diagnostics] ICMP policy draft X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2012 17:47:18 -0000 Well, it's the Friday before the -00 drafts deadline and I still haven't gotten an initial draft to you. Unfortunately I've been pretty buried in other work. My plan right now is to get a -00 draft done this weekend, send it to you when it's done, and whether or not there are comments get it uploaded to the ID repository. We can then work together on getting a revision out before the non-00 drafts deadline. Melinda From cpignata@cisco.com Sat Jul 7 13:01:45 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9848721F8639 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 13:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdr-n08Nci4Z for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 13:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C3121F85AC for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 13:01:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=cpignata@cisco.com; l=1471; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1341691324; x=1342900924; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=vwP4UWaP2DZZlR5dOUbgsBIpd0V1QVPx6+dhxrjIjmo=; b=HDGCLU6MEy5GTxCfJRAXOAHRErowQzTJSuAWwL2GuTzSx5DnYopPgsop hC4orvLfM9tG0o+1E8BPFEBXGU/EQ/tyV1XSBXKbcC+KHsMIBjoMPj1k8 Hkf6mod+gugf+UtwNdOwFovwjERaJ/VE/pyvuKuBzgN7ENNlhLwy+F8q0 4=; X-Files: signature.asc : 203 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av4EABmV+E+tJXG9/2dsb2JhbABFt1yBB4IgAQEBAwEBAQEPAVsLBQsCAQhGJwslAgQOBQ4Uh2UGC5osnxcEi0CFLGADjkiBIYVNjh+BZoJf X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,543,1336348800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="99672609" Received: from rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com ([173.37.113.189]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Jul 2012 20:02:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com [173.36.12.87]) by rcdn-core2-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q67K23FB022005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:02:04 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.178]) by xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com ([173.36.12.87]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Sat, 7 Jul 2012 15:02:03 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Melinda Shore Thread-Topic: [tig-diagnostics] ICMP policy draft Thread-Index: AQHNW593kOhQDSRqwUylD7JYbJzzRpcek1IA Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2012 20:02:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4FF724B3.1010509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FF724B3.1010509@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.81.8.58] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.2.0.1135-7.000.1014-19026.001 x-tm-as-result: No--31.168400-8.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E6EAE8AF-9CAC-4785-9B17-E03E77AF3BAF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] ICMP policy draft X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2012 20:01:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E6EAE8AF-9CAC-4785-9B17-E03E77AF3BAF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sounds good -- I am glad to iterate -00 or -01. Perhaps Melinda you could put the source in some svn/git repository? On Jul 6, 2012, at 1:47 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: > Well, it's the Friday before the -00 drafts deadline and I still haven't > gotten an initial draft to you. Unfortunately I've been pretty buried > in other work. My plan right now is to get a -00 draft done this > weekend, send it to you when it's done, and whether or not there are > comments get it uploaded to the ID repository. We can then work > together on getting a revision out before the non-00 drafts deadline. > > Melinda > _______________________________________________ > tig-diagnostics mailing list > tig-diagnostics@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tig-diagnostics > --Apple-Mail=_E6EAE8AF-9CAC-4785-9B17-E03E77AF3BAF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAk/4lbsACgkQtfDPGTp3USweggCeMhzWfO4ecjxmYasPdLq2LPvm /vgAoK9to2wXMMrBqjIHfQYAMBdbJKuJ =CvqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E6EAE8AF-9CAC-4785-9B17-E03E77AF3BAF-- From melinda.shore@gmail.com Mon Jul 9 13:07:03 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BA311E81E1 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:07:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LoL-1bZ5NqZ6 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gg0-f172.google.com (mail-gg0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E08111E81E3 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 13:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ggnc4 with SMTP id c4so11527966ggn.31 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2012 13:07:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=g2wi2sUzHJnlt0QdhCsbtIChaNihKEB2A5Tdb6C0L0w=; b=ljMHlNYfLpjZ7OwlpMn9+HXw68h3075DRgs0JsyIB4KNvTk8Slnb10qrkR3UW8hMHy uFUPofkr1TFr45PSybdE6RZW+599qMkAGx/SztI7/DQ6eGTFqr34c5iQrmqpJjO0V6lj WCtfx0mfNXxIVeD2ApNoKa28uMsat99eEeOiwRhWc7VeT0207aNA3dqglm0YOAged3LB RCFRjCiWhUrSeUONOa8EDw5XO/hkgpjEZmaYFQqrcs3IPxi4kvCC0FlyE+mAVlXdqCgA 0B4/nJ3aNGOZt4ocUXKl2YDCSN6+SaJ38IIqQ7dm7B9pjybKZYP0cecsXQIex1GQAq80 8fUQ== Received: by 10.66.80.199 with SMTP id t7mr67912114pax.82.1341864446651; Mon, 09 Jul 2012 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex.local (216-67-41-146-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.41.146]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pc6sm19179750pbc.47.2012.07.09.13.07.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 09 Jul 2012 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 12:07:24 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlos Pignataro Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org Subject: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 20:07:04 -0000 I'm in the process of uploading the ICMP AUP draft. I've spent the last few days looking at it and thinking "no, that's not right" and then rewriting portions, it's been a bit of a slog. I've taken the liberty of adding your name as co-author, both because you've said that you'd be interested in helping whip this thing into shape and because I relied quite a bit on your bibliography. It is being posted as draft-shore-icmp-aup. If there's interest we can discuss it at the opsawg session in Vancouver. Melinda From rbonica@juniper.net Wed Jul 11 10:55:26 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF2E11E8116 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:55:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e1VDAQK2kufP for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og120.obsmtp.com (exprod7og120.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.18]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F71711E80DB for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob120.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT/2+Ic6iV77h/Zgr/cYjMY7jFwFvou2U@postini.com; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:55:56 PDT Received: from P-CLDFE02-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:52:04 -0700 Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by p-cldfe02-hq.jnpr.net (172.24.192.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.355.2; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:52:03 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:51:36 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: Melinda Shore , Carlos Pignataro Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 13:51:36 -0400 Thread-Topic: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup Thread-Index: Ac1eDnniVeeFFlqMRHSC3u6qqfqRVwBeasDA Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:55:26 -0000 Hi Melinda, I think a better approach might be to define an AUP for ICMP in Section 1. = In Section 1.1, demonstrate how all existing ICMP messages conform to that = AUP. In Section 2, call out areas in which current practice falls short of = the goal state in the AUP and in which future ICMP work is required. Only in Section 3 should you call out inappropriate uses for ICMP. In Secti= on 3, please avoid specific references to specific proposals. The people wh= o we offend are not likely to be supportive of this draft! IMHO, the only appropriate use for ICMP are: 1) to inform a datagram's originator that a forwarding plane anomaly has be= en encountered downstream. By examining the ICMP message, the datagram orig= inator must be able to determine whether the forwarding plane anomaly that = cause the ICMP message to be sent also caused the original datagram to be d= iscarded.=20 2) to discover on-link routers and hosts In Section 1.1, it should be pretty easy to assign all existing ICMP messag= es to one of the two categories listed above. The only difficult case is th= e ICMP Redirect message. However, you could argue that the redirect message= reports a forwarding anomaly in which the originator of the ICMP message f= orwards a packet through the same interface upon which it was received. In Section two, you could call out cases in which the ICMP message doesn't = make it to the originator of the datagram. For example, if a datagram times= out inside a tunnel, the ICMP message is sent to a tunnel endpoint. The en= dpoint device may or may not relay the message to the datagram originator. = You can also call out cases in which the ICMP message makes it to the datag= ram originator, but contains deceptive or incomplete information (e.g., in = the presence of NAT). In Section 3, you can briefly mention that ICMP should not be used as a rou= ting or network management protocol. What do you think? Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: tig-diagnostics-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tig-diagnostics- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Melinda Shore > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 4:07 PM > To: Carlos Pignataro > Cc: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org > Subject: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup >=20 > I'm in the process of uploading the ICMP AUP draft. I've spent the > last few days looking at it and thinking "no, that's not right" and > then rewriting portions, it's been a bit of a slog. I've taken the > liberty of adding your name as co-author, both because you've said that > you'd be interested in helping whip this thing into shape and because I > relied quite a bit on your bibliography. >=20 > It is being posted as draft-shore-icmp-aup. If there's interest we can > discuss it at the opsawg session in Vancouver. >=20 > Melinda > _______________________________________________ > tig-diagnostics mailing list > tig-diagnostics@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tig-diagnostics From melinda.shore@gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:58:23 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0816621F84EA for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnw-K2wdRABK for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gh0-f172.google.com (mail-gh0-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A6F21F8491 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ghbg16 with SMTP id g16so1624181ghb.31 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F8IK+KRgSSSPgHa1ErAdHtKASfezl1B1CgHEJwpbCJY=; b=kBZMDPxIAPsEHH57f8yGyjkTyaFCP+BZLewiOggdwt+KzU5peHMrdDKB2UapGthkYE VC9SF6Bmm5TMramu04/PimpMlb5Z1/dKmMIxsXrxv6Z0geHD4Wzbi09toJ83ylWhwWAZ Gg/1uMdA8nrEGsx1yG8T2v4MABVYZY5sBG/caiaNcCVV/BcMrGgaJ8mKAn/UkE4qhBjm aZbYGBGTHpPig+a9OD/fV1P+W8JwpsSVvLJv21XIVXdGP+AsOMCVllhOqpNS8wvWwsM4 qN2bf6WRi7XuXOqyPXb35EoakCJQm7qrCq/OvBAeN1zS/LRH3I2bu9MSZKxRcLZPE0oL sGOQ== Received: by 10.66.76.106 with SMTP id j10mr83489577paw.51.1342029533096; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex.local (216-67-41-146-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.41.146]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ru4sm2109684pbc.66.2012.07.11.10.58.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4FFDBEDA.3050505@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 09:58:50 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ronald Bonica References: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Carlos Pignataro , "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 17:58:23 -0000 On 7/11/12 9:51 AM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > In Section 3, you can briefly mention that ICMP should not be used as > a routing or network management protocol. That mostly sounds reasonable. This morning it occurred to me that a better summary might be that ICMP should not be used to install/ configure state in network devices, but that's still pretty fuzzy around the edges. Melinda From rbonica@juniper.net Wed Jul 11 11:09:56 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BECE11E8116 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id llc-ONRfJHk9 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og123.obsmtp.com (exprod7og123.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941D711E80EF for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob123.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKT/3BkShMIjKGb1A8Mp0566ToBjaGLEOH@postini.com; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:10:27 PDT Received: from p-emfe01-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.24) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 11:06:51 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe01-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::d0d1:653d:5b91:a123%11]) with mapi; Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:05:51 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: Melinda Shore Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 14:05:50 -0400 Thread-Topic: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup Thread-Index: Ac1fjtdtx5aPvbV6QGaZeQKPMATshAAAB52Q Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D7700861D8@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <4FFDBEDA.3050505@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4FFDBEDA.3050505@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Carlos Pignataro , "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 18:09:56 -0000 I think that it is easier to say that ICMP should be used for X and for X o= nly, than to list all of the things that ICMP should *not* be used for. Ron P.S. BTW, you may be talking to the wrong person about this. The last time = I was asked to formulate an AUP for the Internet, I quoted a highly inappro= priate song from the Broadway play, "Avenue Q". > -----Original Message----- > From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:59 PM > To: Ronald Bonica > Cc: Carlos Pignataro; tig-diagnostics@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup >=20 > On 7/11/12 9:51 AM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > > In Section 3, you can briefly mention that ICMP should not be used as > > a routing or network management protocol. >=20 > That mostly sounds reasonable. This morning it occurred to me that a > better summary might be that ICMP should not be used to install/ > configure state in network devices, but that's still pretty fuzzy > around the edges. >=20 > Melinda From cpignata@cisco.com Thu Jul 12 21:34:38 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B26A11E810C for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jf+mQX41zRjc for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB6811E8095 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=cpignata@cisco.com; l=2364; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1342154112; x=1343363712; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=QPkX2TADsx8DSG2YtmOlskQbLVN8Lr1/uOYnLPwoo5c=; b=GBhf3V6GtC0Nt9z8xlM+6zSgybh+aqMAh/VkGAOO5Nby2aNCqFSHHzSF lKa1JKqefWcMvz1tMldmZcu/2egHqXtxPrbhIRzuqM0GzQD8tsxjDRpNQ kQnu17Pv1tq+Zv89/UDFhTFwT2d/dZ453crd5Z0xUNlT0gv0sETe2t1u2 Y=; X-Files: signature.asc : 203 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av8EAG+k/0+tJXG+/2dsb2JhbABFuBuBB4IgAQEBAwESAWYFBwQCAQgOAwQBAQEnByERFAkIAQEEDgUOFIdcAwYGmyCWLQ2JTopaZoUWYAOOTIEhhU2LBIMcgWaCXw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.77,577,1336348800"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="101249891" Received: from rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com ([173.37.113.190]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Jul 2012 04:35:12 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com [173.37.183.77]) by rcdn-core2-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id q6D4ZBkF023199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:35:11 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([169.254.5.178]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 23:35:11 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Ronald Bonica Thread-Topic: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup Thread-Index: Ac1eDnniVeeFFlqMRHSC3u6qqfqRVwBeasDAAAwl1QAAAD6WAABIRUgA Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:35:10 +0000 Message-ID: <25A39BC8-952C-4EF7-92A5-14B46422194D@cisco.com> References: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <4FFDBEDA.3050505@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D7700861D8@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D7700861D8@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.21.104.19] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-10.2.0.1135-7.000.1014-19036.000 x-tm-as-result: No--36.510100-8.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: No x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E7D3E17D-9556-404A-85F0-B71726599D60"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Melinda Shore , "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 04:34:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E7D3E17D-9556-404A-85F0-B71726599D60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I agree that an approach of defining where ICMP should be used is more = straightforward than the converse, and moving specifics to the bottom as = examples only -- if needed at all. The other comment, while I like "AUP", I wonder if Guideline (like in = RFC 5405) is less controversial than the "P" word. Ron, you said: > In Section 1.1, demonstrate how all existing ICMP messages conform to = that AUP.=20 What about RPL [RFC6550]? Thanks! -- Carlos. On Jul 11, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > I think that it is easier to say that ICMP should be used for X and = for X only, than to list all of the things that ICMP should *not* be = used for. >=20 > Ron >=20 > P.S. BTW, you may be talking to the wrong person about this. The last = time I was asked to formulate an AUP for the Internet, I quoted a highly = inappropriate song from the Broadway play, "Avenue Q". >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Melinda Shore [mailto:melinda.shore@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 1:59 PM >> To: Ronald Bonica >> Cc: Carlos Pignataro; tig-diagnostics@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup >>=20 >> On 7/11/12 9:51 AM, Ronald Bonica wrote: >>> In Section 3, you can briefly mention that ICMP should not be used = as >>> a routing or network management protocol. >>=20 >> That mostly sounds reasonable. This morning it occurred to me that a >> better summary might be that ICMP should not be used to install/ >> configure state in network devices, but that's still pretty fuzzy >> around the edges. >>=20 >> Melinda >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_E7D3E17D-9556-404A-85F0-B71726599D60 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.17 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAk//pX4ACgkQtfDPGTp3USxGFACg0pLNxQN3fKrbJNiNKG4031fg ZLkAmgLFbfF73vxLo5btP0rCeWw2KT73 =/yhb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E7D3E17D-9556-404A-85F0-B71726599D60-- From melinda.shore@gmail.com Sun Jul 15 13:43:34 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82F521F845B for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:43:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E28LeevFvd7K for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pb0-f44.google.com (mail-pb0-f44.google.com [209.85.160.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D34221F8459 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pbcwy7 with SMTP id wy7so9282785pbc.31 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:44:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:x-forwarded-message-id:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=FwhO4SWZipNFOI1JypkkJPv54I0zCIFvavH8EjUKWtQ=; b=y2mGaQ2DX3OvmbCWi6C8M0dANuSK3JLz9AigfZPOycCMD6C01PUl5LfKsKaUb5YpVb M9qeJiC0DY1blzbQFHMjj9pAhwdaIVeOo0hat5xYohkKwt+mZ171xRrVrmuCtss8yzBh Iug0NCQA5kkyZc72wMH6fhBKz7NJwSy5+9CGcUESx6xNq+XwWfF8VEY/oZP/7kUkVaWd vDuRiTP2f6zwlAxWhtOWxLUKx27ZVxMW01dOST0f3NBWiEE3lLY3NThDyJG/1U3ck0Z3 raEGMx5P8S46/I47mHkMRhuWvYdWx8x0es0sf80pF7AuXEvc/qB1o67uav+CQb2D15+q jEzA== Received: by 10.68.225.201 with SMTP id rm9mr21977244pbc.71.1342385056832; Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spandex.local (216-67-41-146-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.41.146]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pt2sm10422076pbb.58.2012.07.15.13.44.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <50032B9D.5000205@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 12:44:13 -0800 From: Melinda Shore User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" References: <20120715204113.21677.1036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20120715204113.21677.1036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20120715204113.21677.1036.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [tig-diagnostics] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-shore-icmp-aup-01.txt X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:43:34 -0000 An initial pass at a policy for adding new message types and codes to ICMP. Melinda -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-shore-icmp-aup-01.txt Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 13:41:13 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: melinda.shore@nomountain.net CC: cpignata@cisc.com A new version of I-D, draft-shore-icmp-aup-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Melinda Shore and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-shore-icmp-aup Revision: 01 Title: An Acceptable Use Policy for New ICMP Types and Codes Creation date: 2012-07-13 WG ID: Individual Submission Number of pages: 15 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shore-icmp-aup-01.txt Status: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shore-icmp-aup Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shore-icmp-aup-01 Diff: http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-shore-icmp-aup-01 Abstract: Some recent proposals to add new Internet Control Message Protocol (ICMP) types and/or codes have highlighted a need to describe policies for when adding new features to ICMP is desirable and when it is not. In this document we provide a basic description of ICMP's role in the IP stack and some guidelines for the future. The IETF Secretariat From rbonica@juniper.net Mon Jul 16 07:57:06 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tig-diagnostics@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B071721F873E for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:57:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eR8Fv5McH4rZ for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exprod7og103.obsmtp.com (exprod7og103.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.159]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F2821F8736 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob103.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUAQr6s9/mU4sqM3M5Rjg+kRV/CJABExQ@postini.com; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:57:50 PDT Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.3.213.0; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 07:54:57 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:53:59 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 10:53:58 -0400 Thread-Topic: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup Thread-Index: Ac1eDnniVeeFFlqMRHSC3u6qqfqRVwBeasDAAAwl1QAAAD6WAABIRUgAAKH8SjA= Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D7703A1781@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: <4FFB39FC.1080605@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D77008617B@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <4FFDBEDA.3050505@gmail.com> <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456D7700861D8@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <25A39BC8-952C-4EF7-92A5-14B46422194D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <25A39BC8-952C-4EF7-92A5-14B46422194D@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Melinda Shore , "tig-diagnostics@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tig-diagnostics] Uploading icmp aup X-BeenThere: tig-diagnostics@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:57:07 -0000 >=20 > Ron, you said: > > In Section 1.1, demonstrate how all existing ICMP messages conform to > that AUP. >=20 > What about RPL [RFC6550]? >=20 Hmmm.... Maybe that one shouldn't have slipped by? Ron