From nobody Fri Jan 3 21:20:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F9812004E for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 21:20:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aksmc4DdAmgk for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 21:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BE72120020 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 21:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id E5A5CF406F7; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 21:19:53 -0800 (PST) To: tim@dierks.org, ekr@rtfm.com, rdd@cert.org, kaduk@mit.edu, caw@heapingbits.net, joe@salowey.net, sean+ietf@sn3rd.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: itumelengsebotsa@gmail.com, tls@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20200104051953.E5A5CF406F7@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 21:19:53 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5246 (5955) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 05:20:17 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5246, "The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5955 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Itumeleng Section: 5246 Original Text ------------- Corrected Text -------------- Notes ----- Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC5246 (draft-ietf-tls-rfc4346-bis-10) -------------------------------------- Title : The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2 Publication Date : August 2008 Author(s) : T. Dierks, E. Rescorla Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Transport Layer Security Area : Security Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Sat Jan 4 16:45:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F44F1200A1 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:45:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=TfU5N7RF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=O2BGip12 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_qp4T5zQe1y for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30D0612008F for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA6343A for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 19:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 04 Jan 2020 19:45:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject:message-id:date; s= fm1; bh=iQF8iAyB7F71x7Sn2L+mXD6lTbzk5yrJESVCqPO52Qw=; b=TfU5N7RF 3gep7pYs4yXYWCpJJd/mTPp2lGL0LX4d2pC5m8tWp+gNcXAPnEuZ6rknur60tEuh oeSkBwJf0rLetmnxmH0UmcADHQC56fW0EqjKw85Sf2gPJDe6aPadBwEBb7GkaByT 9yhPyrLjf6W/8G6JqM2iabNgPK0IQkmeVuNWzU3pV4o3Z/QqBl3t3HaNGVH6nwnD YfND5rx8+L8KfrHImhB4BAySRYeKVwOkUWftcok/wVniKrMs8AcsY1jdycwUb15j ZEH06g1dQ8Kwr3209LUXw6EtaUhS8lwHuSI/c6m1s7uhcizBMRNsvyoh5MuFwm/H SBRTN99itIeBlg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=iQF8iAyB7F71x7Sn2L+mXD6lTbzk5 yrJESVCqPO52Qw=; b=O2BGip12s/MWbJPRG5DDXBSrGwEaVVMjzyFJWfR9c0CGk rc0mgkklrkInCY5mKA4BCCw1nd5qOakMkbumenKNc6MU8AxR+hLHHjlN5P8M+nh7 KivzIVYC0qN1rgY02ii7FRBOOHApMHmnzfSwQHD3Ow05sh6FO+j7AdXw7euCH+K7 coMkvdNbbjBAaCq4npZm2RpwxR7yQlhAj7Q/woqVKmw7ROCPtVwctLPmTB2NtGZb gMcEV3SLfNm8u47NAQ1KCIzVUgr8XW4+UIvy+qqbei3IdTcgo34ApcZb/8NRJJOS VoyJAhK7P8qnojvWx2sz48ATwrEuIXnSgsh27wJFw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdegiedgvdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejne cuhfhrohhmpefiihhthhhusgcupfhothhifhhitggrthhiohhnshcuoeguohgpnhhothgp rhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmne cukfhppeeghedrjeelrdduudefrdduieehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegu ohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from cloud.mnot.net (cloud.mnot.net [45.79.113.165]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 37B0730607B0 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 19:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cloud.mnot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cloud.mnot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173029D370 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 00:45:13 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============4997778943131379270==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Github Notifications To: tls@ietf.org Message-Id: <20200105004513.173029D370@cloud.mnot.net> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 00:45:13 +0000 (UTC) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 00:45:18 -0000 --===============4997778943131379270== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Issues ------ * tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC2) 1 issues received 2 new comments: - #41 Assign codepoint for delegated_credentials extension (2 by InfoHunt= er, siyengar) https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/issues/41=20 Pull requests ------------- * tlswg/certificate-compression (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests submitted: - Address comments from IANA (by vasilvv) https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression/pull/33=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-esni * https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls13-spec * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls-conn-id * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts * https://github.com/tlswg/oldversions-deprecate * https://github.com/tlswg/sniencryption * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-grease --===============4997778943131379270== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts)

Sunday January 05, 2020

Issues

tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC2)

1 issues received 2 new comments:

Pull requests

tlswg/certificate-compression (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests submitted:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============4997778943131379270==-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 17:12:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5379D12008D for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:12:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySO7Yj3lEscT for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2B1A12008F for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id u71so47400973lje.11 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 17:12:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9vMngrF7zsiXTshmKda65liL6dWh2/m0dtu86RFcqF4=; b=uB73iKGD+slZi25lsI2kBIg+HnemOUc/rOzdY+hvG6XE6Xl9l3esRWHY5SSXaVNxp4 QzehmRsaUSQjYkVvxIZOsH8tlwRKG9Ey2DpXqfjPpNbq9YwLEYIGQhaL/NVHJZtCEdRt bdBRVdW+rWVLFxbTNjp9CVzr9Su4/eTM4FGRNx7bS7u80SojOKXIea+BGsUFRn0x62h2 su72S5rkBjvlQyGBM4lPMMqDD/gLH2qAnmqSQVQYVJIJCbegcOLUriYJclxtNb1E29xm 72n2ir+zviKd6HdQgoYOLVgZzPF6SF4aKOT7hVHGbeRxZZtnVgPFhhrgERwYGdO2UtBd eSkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9vMngrF7zsiXTshmKda65liL6dWh2/m0dtu86RFcqF4=; b=tvvDzaXz/IrM+EhcQAugccChxJEPiokMPbHJpClQdtRlVtG6L2bQ5WCu/A5oXzSv/W sYw1TJB/g1xQJQ2IwKlw3GVF9KBXOJjfOPae+bsM7dA6V1L0+j+NypbjuMUVBbf7ROBH 60kxIglWHpEthK9jYuPUxL1hS2tSz08qUiN6UzIirBjIj7D7QwSYFgRhkO1piEWJiLka XgrKvWqIbTLfKQaW+d4TAXXlUJ2py5Gmimzx8lSbVaw2LxXUHKv2g+nvqSv9rmRoElbK lufIOc1NX0ByDIquxml8J+K5hwUQgtnmi1Gs+/uJ5yX4l1szhVPWg8BkyHaSwCD8oyUv M/Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVxM3LL2f9beSxj6Z+WIIWUmaV14ep2W1beN9WpQUOb5H6bbM1n TxomqvvWKDPF888G5iLJ64GwW6S5AteXhQwc5kVDlqXAGbs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzuKQd9XoKHT2RlAvQyt82ROF1jpAbtKdlLPOS45ndgmIJEjSs/LxFJuE+ufilaF37G9I8sv5vbPKAdpkTp5W4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:239:: with SMTP id z25mr57187419ljn.48.1578186741348; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 17:12:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200104051953.E5A5CF406F7@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <20200104051953.E5A5CF406F7@rfc-editor.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:11:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: RFC Errata System Cc: Tim Dierks , Roman Danyliw , Benjamin Kaduk , Christopher Wood , Joseph Salowey , sean+ietf@sn3rd.com, itumelengsebotsa@gmail.com, "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001b902d059b5a3c2a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5246 (5955) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 01:12:25 -0000 --0000000000001b902d059b5a3c2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hmm... There doesn't seem to be any content. Perhaps mis-filed? On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:20 PM RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5246, > "The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5955 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Editorial > Reported by: Itumeleng > > Section: 5246 > > Original Text > ------------- > > > Corrected Text > -------------- > > > Notes > ----- > > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC5246 (draft-ietf-tls-rfc4346-bis-10) > -------------------------------------- > Title : The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version > 1.2 > Publication Date : August 2008 > Author(s) : T. Dierks, E. Rescorla > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Transport Layer Security > Area : Security > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > --0000000000001b902d059b5a3c2a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hmm... There doesn't seem to be any content. Perhaps m= is-filed?

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:20 PM RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wro= te:
The followin= g errata report has been submitted for RFC5246,
"The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5955

--------------------------------------
Type: Editorial
Reported by: Itumeleng <itumelengsebotsa@gmail.com>

Section: 5246

Original Text
-------------


Corrected Text
--------------


Notes
-----


Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, ple= ase
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party=C2=A0
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC5246 (draft-ietf-tls-rfc4346-bis-10)
--------------------------------------
Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: The Transport= Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2
Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : August 2008
Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: T. Dierks, E. Rescorla<= br> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Transport Layer Se= curity
Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Security
Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
--0000000000001b902d059b5a3c2a-- From nobody Mon Jan 6 07:13:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105701200F8; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:13:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157832363001.7975.7577891261932731234@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 07:13:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-06.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:13:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1 Authors : Kathleen Moriarty Stephen Farrell Filename : draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-06.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2020-01-06 Abstract: This document, if approved, formally deprecates Transport Layer Security (TLS) versions 1.0 (RFC 2246) and 1.1 (RFC 4346) and moves these documents to the historic state. These versions lack support for current and recommended cipher suites, and various government and industry profiles of applications using TLS now mandate avoiding these old TLS versions. TLSv1.2 has been the recommended version for IETF protocols since 2008, providing sufficient time to transition away from older versions. Products having to support older versions increase the attack surface unnecessarily and increase opportunities for misconfigurations. Supporting these older versions also requires additional effort for library and product maintenance. This document also deprecates Datagram TLS (DTLS) version 1.0 (RFC6347), but not DTLS version 1.2, and there is no DTLS version 1.1. This document updates many RFCs that normatively refer to TLSv1.0 or TLSv1.1 as described herein. This document also updates RFC 7525 and hence is part of BCP195. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 07:16:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C11E12087A for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:16:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGOD2m4H8Rfy for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:16:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24AE8120879 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:16:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE7DBE56; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:16:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJl5ZS22v57d; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:16:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [134.226.36.133] (unknown [134.226.36.133]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 882CABE53; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:16:42 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1578323802; bh=MdiyPWivOo+BgomWRmUq6bWWnqvUdhewQua5UyCAjdA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=F1VDRXUWjEtOc72rZEotZliPZNYliKUPUD6wDi9/zC659/cubEyb+48KQnTWV8q2M 2TYHvHkjsdrNZQrrQXqFwDPultTFuv++YBhdwfTZyQm/VHC518i+zd+nSuZZ+6Q0ra 3P0iX0mZ+K/UQ8ga1vyKED4s6SYg6Jhw9JGgKKnc= To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: tls@ietf.org References: <20191111195325.GE32847@kduck.mit.edu> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191111195325.GE32847@kduck.mit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hx3E57j7zRxZ3QNHe9KbuVhYapnE1GtjK" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] preliminary AD review of draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-05 X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:16:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --hx3E57j7zRxZ3QNHe9KbuVhYapnE1GtjK Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cS2achiFxXghmVFNzCaCwnPrfcmYjOkM2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <0390e6c8-dd19-8d5a-45b2-79ac0f1461c5@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] preliminary AD review of draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-05 References: <20191111195325.GE32847@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20191111195325.GE32847@kduck.mit.edu> --cS2achiFxXghmVFNzCaCwnPrfcmYjOkM2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------DB2FCDB7E5277BF7C3DF980E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DB2FCDB7E5277BF7C3DF980E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I've just submitted -06 that (I think/hope:-) addresses the issues in Ben's preliminary AD review. So the ball's back in Ben's court until he finds more stuff that needs fixing or starts IETF LC:-) Cheers, S. --------------DB2FCDB7E5277BF7C3DF980E Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8OY_lQWvMFQ for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com (mail-oi1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3362F12001A for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id d62so16055385oia.11 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BtlFNz/wI+3nuNMxH1V6trdlu3Bx4J8jgTcCF2ypCPg=; b=C804Mt7flbg483Vy2gBkgLl2GxLscFOtFwYYjhzMX/KXC86DW2BcGBamhOfDeznS2c zKxbDc/FhwuTNvoEq1Rexjm0jhiY3/HS/XrFVcwwAgDuOr4IqI3RiKKI3MhwFDXMFA7B kIj2Q92bot8Uy+I1V9Utgvo4F4fNnIALtku8f1sU8AXKtP8e9BflESEnfBy/HYBHfQwD IFSDXgtvvz4kBQNRq97nE6cErg9t3CycH5ghQ1Two6V/GjPFsdXdrbWNeGs2PG/6rPMx oIkb6nNo7iXOCFGH4BnjyPLa9K0k1i31MseKTqO5loBlEIsFOhNxDC78eWLzxJGv8ug9 cyxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BtlFNz/wI+3nuNMxH1V6trdlu3Bx4J8jgTcCF2ypCPg=; b=h748eNZ3WLTEwG74xptVe9nWEeEly1ROajcqdluIjwf4v5tLw3QiUlAhC2Ir87WtuC /Fo+uFQ+ze4Iaoau2FRVCW4hhSHJ+svDBH/D59h7X7tEBxXqlQjH1fd0gqRlGfHeXCk9 VgTKKqXq48UauhKc35cWF7NGSruEHAQZFkAoiDHrULLTIAGQKPVjHJzte2OW3rTXQvws Sj7dV35PPwZC+0tG4R59mck49Ida7vqx8ZtYrrWHPa8glA7qivl47iPqDlZemd+bSUT6 7C+T6NaUOZZpnpSUqx8hzrBN7KqOg9h9znKttjUZvxpcr0PG47KbQ2LKK/VV98yHwKY4 XTeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6t0YVbhCdOMOcPrNd44gzBq6LoLZTAWJDTKdl4fyXKvHLfJxW JlvBjsyAkmytOBPc/c80gMCRTGvFI9HqKAbY+nY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxto8Nry6+K6b2wrZv4LNC6GATMG/uh25erduE26rlgalnYp7g8EXPttS315JF5TVX3m1kG/9A5bDNwKk/ccGw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:b13:: with SMTP id s19mr5243734oij.119.1578324118490; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 07:21:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191111195325.GE32847@kduck.mit.edu> <0390e6c8-dd19-8d5a-45b2-79ac0f1461c5@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <0390e6c8-dd19-8d5a-45b2-79ac0f1461c5@cs.tcd.ie> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 10:21:22 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: Benjamin Kaduk , "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c5374059b7a3865" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] preliminary AD review of draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-05 X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:22:01 -0000 --0000000000006c5374059b7a3865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:17 AM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi all, > > I've just submitted -06 that (I think/hope:-) addresses > the issues in Ben's preliminary AD review. > Thank you! > > So the ball's back in Ben's court until he finds more > stuff that needs fixing or starts IETF LC:-) > > Cheers, > S. > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > -- Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000006c5374059b7a3865 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:17 AM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hi all,

I've just submitted -06 that (I think/hope:-) addresses
the issues in Ben's preliminary AD review.

Thank you!=C2=A0

So the ball's back in Ben's court until he finds more
stuff that needs fixing or starts IETF LC:-)

Cheers,
S.
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
--0000000000006c5374059b7a3865-- From nobody Mon Jan 6 14:37:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232C712082D; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:36:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157835021908.8124.11181371214726130046@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 14:36:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 22:37:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : TLS Certificate Compression Authors : Alessandro Ghedini Victor Vasiliev Filename : draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2020-01-06 Abstract: In TLS handshakes, certificate chains often take up the majority of the bytes transmitted. This document describes how certificate chains can be compressed to reduce the amount of data transmitted and avoid some round trips. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 21:17:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F0E120046 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:17:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8Wbp_jdH5Zs for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3373B120045 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9AF203BD4; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:14:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pO95b7khZWYX; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.31.98.5] (unknown [96.229.48.220]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BF448203BD1; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:14:54 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Megan Ferguson In-Reply-To: <20200104051953.E5A5CF406F7@rfc-editor.org> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 21:17:40 -0800 Cc: Tim Dierks , Eric Rescorla , "Roman D. Danyliw" , kaduk@mit.edu, caw@heapingbits.net, Joseph Salowey , sean+ietf@sn3rd.com, "" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20200104051953.E5A5CF406F7@rfc-editor.org> To: RFC System X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC5246 (5955) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 05:17:42 -0000 Greetings, FYI - this empty report has been deleted. Thank you. RFC Editor/mf On Jan 3, 2020, at 9:19 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5246, > "The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol Version 1.2". >=20 > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5955 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > Type: Editorial > Reported by: Itumeleng >=20 > Section: 5246 >=20 > Original Text > ------------- >=20 >=20 > Corrected Text > -------------- >=20 >=20 > Notes > ----- >=20 >=20 > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party =20 > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > RFC5246 (draft-ietf-tls-rfc4346-bis-10) > -------------------------------------- > Title : The Transport Layer Security (TLS) Protocol = Version 1.2 > Publication Date : August 2008 > Author(s) : T. Dierks, E. Rescorla > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : Transport Layer Security > Area : Security > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG >=20 From nobody Tue Jan 7 01:54:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3174512009C for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 01:54:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ghedini.me Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rod2hGAQlm14 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 01:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from blastoise.ghedini.me (blastoise.ghedini.me [IPv6:2001:19f0:6c01:a56:5400:1ff:fe4a:5694]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4104120073 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 01:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2a02:8010:6241:1:d036:4980:afa8:a42a]) by blastoise.ghedini.me (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4249DF308 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:54:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ghedini.me; s=mail; t=1578390874; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=5JAupLDqJk6mg8VS4HMR5rSmWIRys0yiSStmYIvgbp0=; b=d3RYVZHw3rDlhUzQw1OFIwNryez0XAjT+wIob0cLAC+Gj04KoHkvuSYX2d0SRHVQsERQPM jKdnADm9wLYkwRymJx8E4w7fRl4X4FJ0/amUYaMbisxC/6FKDWO1xmfPLJ9L/LSY+Ap1im d5p1n7Yj0SjqnlLhHkSj7Emsryf38ug= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:54:16 +0000 From: Alessandro Ghedini To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200107095416.GA3155@sokka.flat11.house> References: <157835021908.8124.11181371214726130046@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <157835021908.8124.11181371214726130046@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 09:54:41 -0000 On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 02:36:59PM -0800, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. > > Title : TLS Certificate Compression > Authors : Alessandro Ghedini > Victor Vasiliev > Filename : draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2020-01-06 > > Abstract: > In TLS handshakes, certificate chains often take up the majority of > the bytes transmitted. > > This document describes how certificate chains can be compressed to > reduce the amount of data transmitted and avoid some round trips. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tls-certificate-compression-10 This addresses a comment from IANA. Cheers From nobody Sat Jan 11 12:37:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 659F7120019; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 12:37:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e4v0FY7ou2L0; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 12:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79A9312004C; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 12:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id B662ABE24; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:37:06 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZCcmOzuHa_FA; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:37:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3AF4BBE20; Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:37:03 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1578775023; bh=+pfd4Owh8V6bNthiDDhbA2SmmA+wQ/w6f9cZI2tar5U=; h=Subject:References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ESDHpImwUcGAb8FjVbYynxLrxvh4p/kRcHAIO58h2T4ybM8DLZJGGL10DkVtp/bR2 t4HqXFzXmbvMYTDR2zz5SWP3Vn8tr0wKSVA+h8Usn1mJNBBpkKWpbbFDQwi6AqEXDj vOHdZQmjcLuS4rTLfqn+vC8/CbsZ27Vajzcx6snM= References: <829e7169-d1b9-c971-94b4-4f661b5a2c8e@cs.tcd.ie> To: "ace@ietf.org" , lpwan@ietf.org, lwig@ietf.org, 6tisch@ietf.org, core WG , "tls@ietf.org" From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <829e7169-d1b9-c971-94b4-4f661b5a2c8e@cs.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <53124783-0d5a-c531-0b1f-cd63a8a1c704@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:37:02 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <829e7169-d1b9-c971-94b4-4f661b5a2c8e@cs.tcd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rwI2pelNHuJLfJh8CnnbmpJxwj1eSR2qo" Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Fwd: lake wg jan 16th virtual interim X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:37:14 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rwI2pelNHuJLfJh8CnnbmpJxwj1eSR2qo Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="RLM84vciukC4xZMWSkylzr4qp4ZwTdHmS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "ace@ietf.org" , lpwan@ietf.org, lwig@ietf.org, 6tisch@ietf.org, core WG , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <53124783-0d5a-c531-0b1f-cd63a8a1c704@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Fwd: lake wg jan 16th virtual interim References: <829e7169-d1b9-c971-94b4-4f661b5a2c8e@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <829e7169-d1b9-c971-94b4-4f661b5a2c8e@cs.tcd.ie> --RLM84vciukC4xZMWSkylzr4qp4ZwTdHmS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3A3AEBD3B471977F177AA9E0" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3A3AEBD3B471977F177AA9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, The LAKE WG [1] has a virtual interim next week to discuss requirements. LAKE aims to define an authenticted key exchange mechanmism suitable for environments needed a more "lightweight" approach. If you're interested, please do join in. If you can't make the call feel free to raise issues in the github repo for the requirements draft or send mail to the lake list (or even to me in extremis:-). Details of the call and repo are in the attached. Cheers, S. PS: Sorry for the spam. This is sent to the lists of the set of WGs mentioned in the LAKE charter is my excuse:-) -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [Lake] lake wg jan 16th virtual interim Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 20:31:49 +0000 From: Stephen Farrell To: lake@ietf.org --------------3A3AEBD3B471977F177AA9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" VGhpcyBpcyBhbiBPcGVuUEdQL01JTUUgc2lnbmVkIG1lc3NhZ2UgKFJGQyA0ODgwIGFuZCAz MTU2KQotLTJtcXU3Z2lhN2gyUVdqMGVHaDJVTUpKVnlVb25VUTVGMApDb250ZW50LVR5cGU6 IG11bHRpcGFydC9taXhlZDsgYm91bmRhcnk9IlI3VnhSTUJnamtaUVZ1UG0xNVFkNG1SZnVK UHU2SmRXTSI7CiBwcm90ZWN0ZWQtaGVhZGVycz0idjEiCkZyb206IFN0ZXBoZW4gRmFycmVs bCA8c3RlcGhlbi5mYXJyZWxsQGNzLnRjZC5pZT4KVG86ICJsYWtlQGlldGYub3JnIiA8bGFr ZUBpZXRmLm9yZz4KTWVzc2FnZS1JRDogPDgyOWU3MTY5LWQxYjktYzk3MS05NGI0LTRmNjYx YjVhMmM4ZUBjcy50Y2QuaWU+ClN1YmplY3Q6IGxha2Ugd2cgamFuIDE2dGggdmlydHVhbCBp 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--------------3A3AEBD3B471977F177AA9E0-- --RLM84vciukC4xZMWSkylzr4qp4ZwTdHmS-- --rwI2pelNHuJLfJh8CnnbmpJxwj1eSR2qo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEW7Wm6ldl0sWGPK4nWrL68XsXK+oFAl4aMe4ACgkQWrL68XsX K+rXgA//XuDb1FBy1WZ8cmlO8yB8uO6Ty1QJxRBoKhjWqdovQaXKtP8+LUaxeka9 eNWcy2h0F9RzShgtm91SEyGt/7pcBPE9q9hWPJb43m7xGutCshSTOkjiVXnqOXqq YstVU9RquReuhU6VqcorhElKFNfbu5WkKsXAPyQoC0NMWX8gexp+Jz8wQoN8ujG7 dgUjC5PaTFR6cu66cuu+i4PvBeU2fYsMuU1E272yES9ps/32+u0fJLl9YxjprKeu vmHMTyjmln6JerSk5lOMXntrAq1Zqmz+uVqKC985YK0RRrhGgu2vH6aWI0+CyBxo roDo8BNmZX9ASTDXek6xKRfJFTDeY1TKKnghDkIftSITKuEsyeKJYPkUU7RlL5FQ waPhzwpuX4PATnCjuopS9cxHYCVh/FSvkHsidldAJokaC/hxb6Gl0CUYtNdmGC+R BnbHsXjY1uhbzqfrRCm0rIaTs7PQILiTdSrCe4MX+b/+EVQQCYQha1gt0+zw2MZ9 qjM+SPKcLE23NH4NNxc1/G6beU5fzvId+naOVAuj2zEwNY3CwONwPCfjmEUSpo4y 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gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdeijedgudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfhvffusegrtddtredttdejne cuhfhrohhmpeftvghpohhsihhtohhrhicutegtthhivhhithihucfuuhhmmhgrrhihuceu ohhtuceoughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucfkphepvddtrdefiedrvddvrddutddtnecurfgrrhgrmhep mhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuvehluh hsthgvrhfuihiivgepud X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.1.0.4] (unknown [20.36.22.100]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 28FE28005A for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:32:39 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============3310973467677854304==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: tls@ietf.org Message-Id: <20200112073239.28FE28005A@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:32:39 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 07:32:42 -0000 --===============3310973467677854304== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Pull requests ------------- * tlswg/certificate-compression (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests merged: - Address comments from IANA https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression/pull/33=20 * tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests submitted: - adding security consideration on reflection attack (by mglt) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest/pull/12=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-esni * https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls13-spec * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls-conn-id * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts * https://github.com/tlswg/oldversions-deprecate * https://github.com/tlswg/sniencryption * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-grease --===============3310973467677854304== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts)

Sunday January 12, 2020

Pull requests

tlswg/certificate-compression (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests merged:

tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests submitted:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============3310973467677854304==-- From nobody Mon Jan 13 08:12:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0E9120804 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:12:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157893196857.465.14841498324839851041.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 08:12:48 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Milestones changed for tls WG X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:12:48 -0000 Deleted milestone "CBC Fixes to IESG". Deleted milestone "RC4 replacement to IESG". Deleted milestone "(D)TLS 1.3 to IESG". Deleted milestone "Move ECC-based CS to Standards Track". Deleted milestone "DANE Record and DNSSEC Authentication Chain Extension for TLS to IESG". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/tls/about/ From nobody Mon Jan 13 09:48:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF97120866; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:48:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157893773006.465.391103687175539795@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:48:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:48:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : Batch Signing for TLS Author : David Benjamin Filename : draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2020-01-13 Abstract: This document describes a mechanism for batch signing in TLS. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 13 15:58:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A393120041 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wizmail.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8HoVXtE4jJm for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 15:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from wizmail.org (wizmail.org [IPv6:2a00:1940:107::2:0:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C90F120020 for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <157893773006.465.391103687175539795@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Pcms-Received-Sender: vgate18.wizint.net ([2a00:1940:107::1:2f:0] helo=lap.dom.ain) with esmtpsa Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:58:07 -0000 On 13/01/2020 17:48, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > Title : Batch Signing for TLS > Author : David Benjamin > Filename : draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2020-01-13 > > Abstract: > This document describes a mechanism for batch signing in TLS. As a non-cryptographer, my immediate question is "signing of what?" -- Cheers, Jeremy From nobody Mon Jan 13 17:19:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FDA12001B for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:19:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=chromium.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rSl8Iqf2Whqu for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8440B12004C for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id b22so4524286pls.12 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VfFtOnlaLi2I+cpWqzIDFbmzMjozedGhQHUL7lvqy5s=; b=matCS24uhlv3j9ryCWQlEf3FQPXcI1lO/5nvMnGkKShnfUuNivzs8n/KMuG1pFEfoq STzunN9GWILjDM3gdX4//7ITMBzqhLig+ZHuuDFitLLcqeXYHhvuyX4oQeYUjuYPOv3e 7ZZEVenCSt4xc4gXdDJEWyv/SI5L7Z4/bwZVs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VfFtOnlaLi2I+cpWqzIDFbmzMjozedGhQHUL7lvqy5s=; b=OdUYGVQ6hnTitGWzdumvtsAAezN68IFfiWpBJmBam1+SWeKhrygVdI46rMkFJpQ/I9 MbMojBG1KjMW7tZ08/RaJVVUEnePaZBYVmuMsd2lPw5eU0M6Yg4mD+V2Sdoj/6cOmh3a Ux0j3zVtCUdgSJnwGQxM9H8UtdZhME7SEVbdKx3pid5AUXiJyDYkJnO9XxPo9MugpJNW m4RN1Tm/oh7yTf1zCp9aCGfB3+Mfl8kKEC4M39Q0ejrRFMuI1cO4eSY1IZyuoSoGeOVX 35ojEi/jeqxk7+w+1H8qkM/ZVByqCi0RF1NO7J2hCNf3TgdS75K6uZv78QgyIWedPT+E 6Rrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWZW1D7wYhPQRxd5IixYKPZibrCxo42uzGoINtidL5IYcagtY7w lOPlR+wJpoejWLVOho2DHo4ifynhJlcYM0lmGf4QCAZPwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwo+sedCEXSZfjW+tK43+OXqq1A9CivzI3ZfbJsA1KR27fdv01pN98Va8SGYro/GmEVhdae3zPJCjH42qlBptI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b03:: with SMTP id o3mr16689501plk.331.1578964789699; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:19:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157893773006.465.391103687175539795@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: David Benjamin Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:19:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jeremy Harris Cc: "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000679efb059c0f63a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 01:19:52 -0000 --000000000000679efb059c0f63a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:58 PM Jeremy Harris wrote: > On 13/01/2020 17:48, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > Title : Batch Signing for TLS > > Author : David Benjamin > > Filename : draft-ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt > > Pages : 10 > > Date : 2020-01-13 > > > > Abstract: > > This document describes a mechanism for batch signing in TLS. > > As a non-cryptographer, my immediate question is > "signing of what?" > Whatever input TLS passes into the signing algorithm. :-P I'm being somewhat flippant, but the payloads aren't necessarily anything coherent. See RFC8446, which defines the signing payload for a CertificateVerify message. It's not a coherent protocol entity, rather it's all the context necessary to meet the protocol's security requirements. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-4.4.3 Other drafts, like delegated credentials, define other payloads. (Although it is unlikely anyone would actually want to batch-sign delegated credentials.) Perhaps "This document described a batched signature algorithm for TLS."? --000000000000679efb059c0f63a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 6:58 PM Jeremy Ha= rris <jgh@wizmail.org> wrote:<= br>
On 13/01/2020 17:48, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Batch Signing for TLS
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : David Benjamin
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-tls-batch-signing-00.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 10
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2020-01-13
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document describes a mechanism for batch signing in = TLS.

As a non-cryptographer, my immediate question is
"signing of what?"

Whatever= =C2=A0input TLS passes into the signing algorithm. :-P I'm being somewh= at flippant, but the payloads aren't necessarily anything coherent. See= RFC8446, which defines the signing payload for a CertificateVerify message= . It's not a coherent protocol entity, rather it's all the context = necessary to meet the protocol's security requirements.

Other draf= ts, like delegated credentials, define other payloads. (Although it is unli= kely anyone would actually want to batch-sign delegated credentials.)
=

Perhaps "This document described a batched signatu= re algorithm for TLS."?
--000000000000679efb059c0f63a9-- From nobody Thu Jan 16 04:21:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CC012002E; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 04:21:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157917728068.26167.7296634219632357687@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 04:21:20 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-01.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 12:21:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : Deprecating MD5 and SHA-1 signature hashes in TLS 1.2 Authors : Loganaden Velvindron Kathleen Moriarty Alessandro Ghedini Filename : draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-01.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2020-01-16 Abstract: The MD5 and SHA-1 hashing algorithms are steadily weakening in strength and their deprecation process should begin for their use in TLS 1.2 digital signatures. However, this document does not deprecate SHA-1 in HMAC for record protection. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jan 16 19:32:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC0A2120044 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=qzLAOaPE; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=rZO1gS+J Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QVSO7iMQwyZ1 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 115F7120099 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD11217FC for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:31:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=Cuf93B1PahxjTWoXJz9SGPtL3aTmKqbD6s6aRc0g72s=; b=qzLAOaPE eOONdeuD/4Vc/OI5N3ZOUlkVroeb1jd7TaCAC88VInCwc38q2Eo9PKYzMcmttpkM CvKq++kxqfw74UwIrKb8NkmAIBrRlNHLOYhjsEK+DDA2GEyEvyKPneHrh3Uq3b11 WOQQxPVIDfZVo8JpeqM2klrZ3Hp4SK5qsp6jCacUdoY/TlG3H/izZJpCyFy9kkFr U+c2hz6l+9YONGIgYQtdcO05JXToNwGi1rgY76CcH7qoA1BxE5WL4TXPMw6Dkpwf 9VI0F8TprbmahX7XoPxR/6cxrQe0yUDshvAF3hYPfnri0AY9gxLHqqDfmVDCeeZR 2j0/jIfi9d6PQA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Cuf93B1PahxjTWoXJz9SGPtL3aTmK qbD6s6aRc0g72s=; b=rZO1gS+JlbPx1BK+qPsw2w4VTEoC22UI8Vp/jT4RjEfCS 3S3J0lwMc0WUBleOnebXg6oBKUEFk01TXMwEA/baDpi6TvKcEg95wZi4wIfIZUFb 4woF9LchS0MOfsA2zIzaN54Pd4ouS/17sCcRpoHw5RU7yFpW5lFrPotBIsJTjWYT 0ArxqLLbhYBeTcFY/IX8OEuV1fSSUgUoUPCZJqjcWT5DP9xvWa0X6WN0U7OKWNlM vNmj8qE6M0rSvwB5tBUuMDSE0s4e8H8LMSf74O8snTrg/3+cx5tRjRdaIJMOHg47 RIEvNO81emIPF/dN6pJPl51WB//0x+2tnb1+2F4fw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrtdeigdehiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtredtre ertdenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhrihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfieshhgv rghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpghhith hhuhgsrdgtohhmnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhg sghithhsrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id BAF043C00A1; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:31:55 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-754-g09d1619-fmstable-20200113v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 19:31:35 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 03:31:59 -0000 Hi folks, As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group to reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) and future work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is available here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tls/ A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. Please have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing list or in the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all feedback is welcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF 107 so we can move forward with items such as cTLS. ~~~ The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in 1996 to standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for the work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working group has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS protocol v1.0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446], and DTLS (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 [draft-ietf-tls-dtls13], as well as extensions to the protocols and ciphersuites. The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the applicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in emerging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this criteria. The second working group goal is to improve security, privacy, and deployability. This includes, for example, Delegated Credentials, Encrypted SNI, and GREASE. Security and privacy goals will place emphasis on the following: - Encrypt the ClientHello SNI (Server Name Indication) and other application-sensitive extensions, such as ALPN (Application-Layer Protocol Negotiation). - Identify and mitigate other (long-term) user tracking or fingerprinting vectors enabled by TLS deployments and implementations. The third goal is to maintain current and previous version of the (D)TLS protocol as well as to specify general best practices for use of (D)TLS, extensions to (D)TLS, and cipher suites. This includes recommendations as to when a particular version should be deprecated. Changes or additions to older versions of (D)TLS whether via extensions or ciphersuites are discouraged and require significant justification to be taken on as work items. With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a priority in minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS. ~~~ Best, Chris, on behalf of the chairs [1] https://github.com/tlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/charter/charter.md From nobody Thu Jan 16 22:39:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1B31201AA for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGYkbtS-EJLN for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92e.google.com (mail-ua1-x92e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E5EA1201B7 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92e.google.com with SMTP id c14so8564119uaq.11 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:39:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+zhKlZv2F70j0cIzXRFWEWRMKFnai/C1QkmFDOs0xgE=; b=W0BtHBpZ5XAge0gCQZnjgdiu7GLBnCEnejojuSNbITur1eGHJrK8I9l6k8lMaNRXBa ZGS3/8xnxFmdjMVDi6pmoB9UtzkI1hfBZ8q4RyXZsLhE/juFWt4MIr8GCup5U+YgYKtv +xs9SQ5k+epRTJzYB4EmoFL6TJFUezGpFVAgGxb61XKq7MMFC7W5ATrjEslW1E6eC0iB qHGMoNRXlV58n3g9B+CJcw46zwrYcfBmO4kmrBCOW43SsxkplbZWpGGUS1NjRW7+9YWL W3qpVncYa/oQOvo2UgIS6d5whZJlwu5jyNa9ng4j71KNEV42rCAxITci38+5XqSPqh9j bFzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+zhKlZv2F70j0cIzXRFWEWRMKFnai/C1QkmFDOs0xgE=; b=a1swu1oQv3crHyFFRlAOgpFGKihKO/l4OmPT8oW8+E0+HxMGkTTl1ff+05V3asLCJ9 VGrcWGIawpcXRVzcIhee50OWBso6qEmysYK+X0OYaTH1tykJToWARZNNT3sbBsBF2feQ fE2FtDeLULphpZZkZldC1+VmYF8FJ3GCJzis80b4WlL0xqU7D0OFDULrmbUWMn1/W6vU MA8jEmalR+/kjFSixQyW3u40+rabE3UF5wfPEhOKgJGyzRh6ldxPRImjuYJzj8KmuQga YVSeBKBad+txFtUVASMq279fWlLFvREP9aIdKnwk+TeFTJY8wfQm771u0JwW3l0Q1gc0 yq/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWCfAvjJ4Bb5lpoO7VdgFSu5MKkTBr47gRZH2UcF02ebB8zHJw2 ygROETyQIFFGbLiBTmVUvBay2c9Y1jgKu6wY/Nyh9oKCzbM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwiAdH5/pfX354SE6dTQ869Pwlg0o9OnjR+g//ROxpRzsUqmvqr4mWwwnV6M+Asj7+0aHwny6r7q2lchN9RDWo= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:2a93:: with SMTP id h19mr19936103uar.27.1579243171018; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 22:39:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> From: Dmitry Belyavsky Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 09:39:20 +0300 Message-ID: To: Christopher Wood Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000038fbe4059c503417" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 06:39:34 -0000 --00000000000038fbe4059c503417 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Christopher, On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 6:32 AM Christopher Wood wrote: > Hi folks, > > As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group to > reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) and > future work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is available > here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tls/ > > A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. > Please have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing list > or in the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all feedback > is welcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF 107 so we can > move forward with items such as cTLS. > > ~~~ > The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in 1996 > to standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for the > work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working group > has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS protocol > v1.0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446], and > DTLS (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 > [draft-ietf-tls-dtls13], as well as extensions to the protocols and > ciphersuites. > > The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the > applicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in > emerging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that > help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or > extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, > such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on > protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol > changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions > that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this criteria. > I think it's worth replacing "the size" with "the resource consumption" in the description of this goal. Otherwise, the tls-batch-signing draft ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-davidben-tls-batch-signing/) may be left out of the scope of the charter. -- SY, Dmitry Belyavsky --00000000000038fbe4059c503417 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=C2=A0Christopher,

On Fri, Jan 17, 202= 0 at 6:32 AM Christopher Wood <ca= w@heapingbits.net> wrote:
Hi folks,

As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group to= reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) and f= uture work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is available he= re:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/char= ter-ietf-tls/

A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. Plea= se have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing list or in= the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all feedback is w= elcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF 107 so we can mov= e forward with items such as cTLS.

~~~
The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in 1996 to= standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for t= he work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working group= has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS protocol v1= .0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446], and DTLS = (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 [draft-ietf-tls-dtl= s13], as well as extensions to the protocols and ciphersuites.

The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the applicabi= lity and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in emerging pro= tocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that help protoco= ls better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or extensions = that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, such as Export= ed Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on protocol extensibi= lity are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol changes that reduc= e the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions that help reduce T= LS handshake size meet this criteria.

= I think it's worth replacing "the size"=C2=A0with "the r= esource consumption" in the description of this goal. Otherwise, the t= ls-batch-signing draft (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-davidben= -tls-batch-signing/) may be left out of the scope of the charter.
=

--
SY, = Dmitry Belyavsky
--00000000000038fbe4059c503417-- From nobody Fri Jan 17 05:55:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF04C12006E for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:54:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=qgoG1vor; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FpVUGPbE Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1MlgGJdOcl6j for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD888120074 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id F386821B6B; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 17 Jan 2020 08:54:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=bANIw8QHctIsAKugxkesUj//L8Jv OqKM1lEUlyHJNPc=; b=qgoG1vorsu5A1+zHfIiEI+uiRDJyesjXMbrPQtzUTooz P+l+52B2yYjkAWGaQvC+reVVxRJhCZe1eafw9VQoDPEsRxhPXIjjB8qGDNgK6DCM kGFIJ4xfGVxubOeAx068e5EtvWYa439mVnOnnPcXN5p+IKEZti1lU7JPvPS15Kis UItXV52pVPv6Utlc8PYmv9VMxmKsuaoeHMOUzNufxCFp/VXXvXZwgF7e0CiTVCxb PaobRFw0ta9O6VjREqlfalV7JzQ9mPvc5oh3cvxIwdWrTGknny71iHBq7B92P63Z fbcfU5R3VAfDUezETqb4bE4eeknREVCt9FFj0eRkmQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=bANIw8 QHctIsAKugxkesUj//L8JvOqKM1lEUlyHJNPc=; b=FpVUGPbEi/uVTm2Kp90YIN EItgGUf6CLpuWfryTGTX3lkgDBe3xsLc4vjzplY22RKgoecucgtLj995jlHU6v+f IV241JobpAK+BcrPwkZXUxGS/eIsDWqq5cIKezrK3FTwHwKtdLV0jL0FY+XkAHLQ wxCf46oZKVKuJ4dBjCu17ysUpXO9PWgwiwMNelc9nZMjGTd82Nky6w3IudCShy9p WyfryKCdqqaanN6hKsI8KBu92pOEbrjzX73FQkAlA/6hnxZqe63rNeH0ddZugT1m NWufBUnSjajCWTKO7BF8CZjtZc9hKcVpYSba2rrPrVLXlO7xfwQMXOFUT5p3/Svg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrtdejgdehjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfvehhrhhi shhtohhphhgvrhcuhghoohgufdcuoegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvghtqe enucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegt rgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id ABA5F3C00A1; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-754-g09d1619-fmstable-20200113v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:54:31 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Dmitry Belyavsky" Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:54:59 -0000 On Thu, Jan 16, 2020, at 10:39 PM, Dmitry Belyavsky wrote: > > The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the applicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in emerging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this criteria. > > I think it's worth replacing "the size" with "the resource consumption" > in the description of this goal. Otherwise, the tls-batch-signing draft > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-davidben-tls-batch-signing/) > may be left out of the scope of the charter. Good suggestion -- thanks! Best, Chris From nobody Fri Jan 17 07:30:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4296120018; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:30:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157927505054.20269.6369416774455352834@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:30:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh-00.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:30:51 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : Semi-Static Diffie-Hellman Key Establishment for TLS 1.3 Authors : Eric Rescorla Nick Sullivan Christopher A. Wood Filename : draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2020-01-17 Abstract: TLS 1.3 [I-D.ietf-tls-tls13] specifies a signed Diffie-Hellman exchange modelled after SIGMA [SIGMA]. This design is suitable for endpoints whose certified credential is a signing key, which is the common situation for current TLS servers. This document describes a mode of TLS 1.3 in which one or both endpoints have a certified DH key which is used to authenticate the exchange. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From juraj.somorovsky@rub.de Fri Jan 17 05:08:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A0C12002E for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=rub.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWFfib7dfWsl for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 05:08:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.mail.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (out1.mail.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [IPv6:2a05:3e00:8:1001::8693:3595]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E067D120013 for ; 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Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:07:56 +0100 (CET) To: "tls@ietf.org" Cc: Robert Merget , Nimrod Aviram From: Juraj Somorovsky Autocrypt: addr=juraj.somorovsky@rub.de; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBE1AsMoBCADdRN5g2ao2nYx+avPr0U4a2TrZAsQC6MBSuNZVUrb8Qi0AbaSDvEaflncf /xGvuzmHCswiIGhiWuYywZl5QM9LfHtwopUY8dlNKuDAoqJgG1KYigQmmkBq3DYVU8H6nnXS s6iVaaY4j2GwfEs2ptgSmbRXhgvyaiuGD2kC2q160FyeRZhSlIIK8zTwa/19MfetlpHTEBzg vC6LrDjDuLi3FW6aD1E0IG4SUID3Ea/Rs9aNv/oc+uvv+vHQIeempSBeW5Zgt8AMkOhXBrGn meWz6Th935GFiDi+PZkoGXk2a8Qxfh+fV8DMb+h7d8veaqA2JVGXCJu2UQLhygdEiq7LABEB AAHNKkp1cmFqIFNvbW9yb3Zza3kgPGp1cmFqLnNvbW9yb3Zza3lAcnViLmRlPsLAgQQTAQIA KwIbAwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4ACGQEFAlpUn2cFCRK3iR0ACgkQPXvsNZyy +ABmwAgAxqUtbR+woZghy9d11lUHQOT8o2tPG0GSRKZWirvRS6TSDOfJtJgPtJy+1vtq9JqA sWawfmFMf6nNtHjWwkLOe8WQKc4oJy5ndPHL0v3XJzytLWKJejJ5nsOWRK/EE6reotiJ/F+3 L5WpFoPtS1RvJoCih1OkiURGZjQYEWoEekLLuQEu4iC/feLj5b6WitWCajQAQfVBr0Onzwja WsDBT9aHB71nGTXBx+944fxzEHv334/Jhf2wF0G2rLnV2IIrE4QfSP5bdBfxa6B80YFPfZDv lKVtp1MSlJl5Pr21c1HFUJ308az3tXGo10Xe+7BVueiDCEkMxTi+/R22uASxUs7ATQRNQLDK AQgAzgWN/w8LmQsq4OuZaHK3GrD3unqmLDlixV+a2L6oOdAqORPbfmCJx0wkm+289Xxtq0tc WsT1ZwBU/21Q+mvO9feBNfHJMfWQlSfcSQEH98+FQwqGke85NQatmSI9+2sifIx+tXuUJe8x LLiQFze9zoRIS/IZTMn8hOcWX5r6NewTBloTk0B+kqTtFKIBeWKsgl68C7NlT0WsdaSAbCgp VHzR6WG7TFKfMh8KiIhEn+vyE0EX87aUqfX8G3pH+4C2j4GbPqbz8dC++xhrzjrgJYXX5Ee6 tQYE5TqXnwxI/Gv++NLMYwxCHxVBVN9F5LnWHH8hhI+58sA1tJyU2dPHKQARAQABwsBlBBgB AgAPAhsMBQJaVJ9nBQkSt4kdAAoJED177DWcsvgAnbAH/0CGQxwYa5nJtY7cknwjkb5dji5P /6lUljIn9YM4XutYb9CRvHpaIG6KCEEG1I+zOsmCFJqH4tL2YkBHT1rjhHQ8K4/JSNWH+ERe pWSqTwwoIiGO2vWDmO/xpfaB19J5KvKIl9vUUJUn+C70tyD5PVjb0xFM6KTiWrzsCAsFVWPw pA9qJVK3hCQs38UU1HosEsB8t1fSH6gs4Rrc5gCXZf+TElRcU/3yO9cUeGtkBpYqkrMrRjfu oE58k1RDD/d3v7/yz+/Cg2RTHkgqew7GVux9Mu9KkZhWwltM0HEPURTQI5cX9v5no6Z92EdS MWPAHSLcz5VWQLq+WCSMrYGNhqM= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:07:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.99.4 at mail1.mail.ruhr-uni-bochum.de X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 09:05:23 -0800 Subject: [TLS] Explicit curve parameters in Server Key Exchange messages X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:10:14 -0000 Dear all, related to the recent Windows/NSA custom curve certificate issues, we are wondering whether there are any implementations also supporting explicit curves in TLS server key exchange messages as defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4492#section-5.4 Typical TLS implementations we are aware of only support named curves in server key exchange messages. Note that this is different from the custom curves in X.509 certificates. According to RFC4492, it is also possible to use custom explicit curves directly in the TLS protocol. Thank you -- Dr.-Ing. Juraj Somorovsky Lehrstuhl für Netz- und Datensicherheit Ruhr Universität Bochum ----------------------------------- Universitätsstr. 150, Geb. ID 2/403 D-44780 Bochum Telefon: +49 (0) 234 / 32-26740 Fax: +49 (0) 234 / 32-14347 http://www.nds.rub.de/chair/people/jsomorovsky @jurajsomorovsky From nobody Fri Jan 17 10:13:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37BE6120025 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0t3DWFjzP1mN for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:19:10 -0000 SSdkIHJlbW92ZSAiV2l0aCB0aGVzZSBnb2FscyBpbiBtaW5kIiBmcm9tIHRoZSBsYXN0IHNlbnRl bmNlLCBidXQgdGhlIG5ldyBjaGFydGVyICh3aXRoIHRoZSAicmVzb3VyY2VzIiBlZGl0KSBldmVu IGlmIG15IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gaXNuJ3QgYWNjZXB0ZWQuDQoNCg0K From nobody Sat Jan 18 09:29:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCAB120045 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:29:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D4tuxBRRLODU for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr (mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr [192.134.164.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E92F012003E for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 09:29:53 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,334,1574118000"; d="scan'208";a="432022759" Received: from 82-64-165-115.subs.proxad.net (HELO [192.168.1.20]) ([82.64.165.115]) by mail2-relais-roc.national.inria.fr with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Jan 2020 18:29:52 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Benjamin Beurdouche In-Reply-To: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:29:50 +0100 Cc: ML IETF TLS Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> To: Christopher Wood X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 17:29:57 -0000 LGTM, I agree with using =E2=80=9Cresource" instead of =E2=80=9Csize=E2=80= =9D=E2=80=A6 My understanding is that =E2=80=9Csecurity=E2=80=9D is broad enough to = cover new authentication mechanisms and that =E2=80=9Cprivacy" will be broad enough to cover =E2=80=9Cmetadata= protection=E2=80=9D if needed, correct? B. > On Jan 17, 2020, at 4:31 AM, Christopher Wood = wrote: >=20 > Hi folks, >=20 > As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group = to reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) = and future work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is = available here:=20 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tls/ >=20 > A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. = Please have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing = list or in the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all = feedback is welcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF = 107 so we can move forward with items such as cTLS.=20 >=20 > ~~~ > The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in = 1996 to standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for = the work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working = group has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS = protocol v1.0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 = [RFC8446], and DTLS (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and = v1.3 [draft-ietf-tls-dtls13], as well as extensions to the protocols and = ciphersuites. >=20 > The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the = applicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in = emerging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes = that help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange = protocol, or extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security = properties, such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus = specifically on protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also = includes protocol changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting = security. Extensions that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this = criteria.=20 >=20 > The second working group goal is to improve security, privacy, and = deployability. This includes, for example, Delegated Credentials, = Encrypted SNI, and GREASE. Security and privacy goals will place = emphasis on the following: >=20 > - Encrypt the ClientHello SNI (Server Name Indication) and other = application-sensitive extensions, such as ALPN (Application-Layer = Protocol Negotiation). > - Identify and mitigate other (long-term) user tracking or = fingerprinting vectors enabled by TLS deployments and implementations. >=20 > The third goal is to maintain current and previous version of the = (D)TLS protocol as well as to specify general best practices for use of = (D)TLS, extensions to (D)TLS, and cipher suites. This includes = recommendations as to when a particular version should be deprecated. = Changes or additions to older versions of (D)TLS whether via extensions = or ciphersuites are discouraged and require significant justification to = be taken on as work items. >=20 > With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a priority = in minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS. > ~~~ >=20 > Best, > Chris, on behalf of the chairs >=20 > [1] = https://github.com/tlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/charter/charter.md >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Sat Jan 18 10:17:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2257C1200EC for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=bs4piAAS; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=PYJZ8h7N Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id edk3jUzUEcRR for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1CF212003E for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A9321D6E; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=dYPuzLqLVJIhWLJDFuGYcVOuVRHN7W0 T95IEXh5LAo0=; b=bs4piAASNTvNI5GI8+gXA+u79hiBYa2FLSiCkBs9ZqRt/tk qkX7JpwMGiVIpOUtQ4ui602dDsRJA+K8dgQ96kWUpateRns0JgT8/IErFNv1G1cj WtkW38a/HMLUq6vU+chGEaWP1PuQmoDgrXPrLlT5CrnH4Je2Jn+Vz80lpu0WXSAj gyJrnXuDB9rsD/wFRJdJC899edrkcX/c5+P8cdXl9y50j+yUNBHcoGUeCt4ZzaTt BMs65BI9o/scIPC7hQjuHXEKzSRYrHhSiJBAVUaWAymjFxKxr3KlrLCMgtag+CmB QdFNMzg9iVT5nPy4ySarAdaZPuZEGN4Vch1YqVg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=dYPuzL qLVJIhWLJDFuGYcVOuVRHN7W0T95IEXh5LAo0=; b=PYJZ8h7NLY1h72bCrSHLL0 tHJuiojL32pbeUGu1zqwep4a0tIf2Jv63HarKbcSXLaqygp/umuSm7eSr11a1++S hIOZeYfdTA+OJaLFiE9jzAXM45TKoJl7zxjneQWip47SQYg699nlITDW+aAsrRIt WymXHBcebd3WAJG/V0165kbfYIkWfPPq7uzLEDrBoFee7vaT+072O0ZImDd4b9bB 5TssVpCyOn2kfKkzYy0bKXSu/0NLJuXmK7nPgYb2kETI0ok+x57N8+pzEhN++otM hfEdGIpPAfeTYAVz68QpJaSXMI3uDi6KIUndPBHz3g7slxVVft9qMtzjNKeJCIkg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtgddutdelucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhr ihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth eqnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhn vghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D5B8C3C00A1; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:24 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-754-g09d1619-fmstable-20200113v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6ea16346-d6a3-4d10-a61f-afad27c960c2@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:04 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Salz, Rich" , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:17:30 -0000 On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > I'd remove "With these goals in mind" from the last sentence, but the > new charter (with the "resources" edit) even if my suggestion isn't > accepted. To confirm, you'd replace this: "With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a priority in minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS." with this: "The working group will also place a priority in minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS." Right? That seems fine to me! Thanks, Chris From nobody Sat Jan 18 10:18:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA00B12016E for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=oOXPN6wF; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=cK5qU7nu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1RROcfUhMAWT for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04010120104 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628E221CFD; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm3; bh=3u reSo3IrEbhY5nHUsjlZafqxFCwUNb1KcKKcqG0MqI=; b=oOXPN6wFkQFHtUIR3F lmI7UJkK7JGHyKCSELw21QXQx64E5xlFFCEB0S0WdsFtOCAnk+rNfTDeq0BFgrh4 ZXroSA5Gi/2pXaO/VMfGb6I1ll3H9D4EPNgh5+KPM3yge9UocWlM7t5dKLDO8l5C RWlboOn7wp+5fcIluBacQRF/C+7g19yRZ1VXdxEv+5k5i69rXcL2x/t1RQvgeVtU tTg93iHH44PxmTiKXVvsGFVU3Q5kkp3s2zY9clJsUVxQ7Vyz8Tn5q+duKbMIMMif qMEWM38H2b5b1yOUbt5fWYaIJ9wFpzx8HoXynHl9tiIt7U+kbW3rDj6jIDkQQ9LH Q1pg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=3ureSo3IrEbhY5nHUsjlZafqxFCwUNb1KcKKcqG0M qI=; b=cK5qU7nuTcM/MvB3fKEc2ewRCY5gjbNVpjF2Dx4pFYllHWO/8fNnNNnt7 gVJ6alqlqDCsAOqdR1ehnXg2dI0vtQqbG2fvey0IrtlZSxeJHUkxG/QKNky8qzyY cs4lf6PUWUudbf2a5ddBNGrAVJShEpvYRLoXO7lrgaZ0m/o78TgUuuYD15DQmyvv YK8q1JWNqYhsuZr7SBp813ZpZD2sYktbKhVihwQUIpTpFVtIllvJUEMsUG02TaSS TGhNts2Hl/RjQol/MAfomnlQZ6qRPPmSsra621BdvOuVOiRBN42Rh0J12Y28+szq ucoFSAqUAjNv2cixrKTkCMazDLYIg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtgdduuddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfvehh rhhishhtohhphhgvrhcuhghoohgufdcuoegtrgifsehhvggrphhinhhgsghithhsrdhnvg htqeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheptggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdr nhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0D3853C00A1; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:17:51 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-754-g09d1619-fmstable-20200113v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <78c9f2ba-14ce-449e-9115-bbee6903add4@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:17:30 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "Benjamin Beurdouche" Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:17:59 -0000 On Sat, Jan 18, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Benjamin Beurdouche wrote: > LGTM, I agree with using =E2=80=9Cresource" instead of =E2=80=9Csize=E2= =80=9D=E2=80=A6 > My understanding is that =E2=80=9Csecurity=E2=80=9D is broad enough to= cover new=20 > authentication mechanisms > and that =E2=80=9Cprivacy" will be broad enough to cover =E2=80=9Cmeta= data protection=E2=80=9D=20 > if needed, correct? Indeed -- that's the intent!=20 Best, Chris From nobody Sat Jan 18 10:26:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05F9120104 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IDGCXqoayKOS for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A44CE1200EC for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122333.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 00IIL8qI013114; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:26:23 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=tO2NdTzYqlA0DJ1mjsSAIBHNHQnQvauiVziVx56mdkU=; b=PqG2L3nVrSNQyoV6n0m8Ntn3Rj6NkJ17O9XbHgTQEpqvS0QfP3yrp8CWK19aWlW66F7E owsthJdHNHkJsIo626Y9qL+aQjbKmDKtWy0DH5B2f7L/19xWNuiMefVtgX+ZMlT4o1Hp 760irUj6rzzWLDT5E4/ft7ot/scRwO653C381R0JTJj9/DrFkhV/zrO2+M/OtA7xqwil d+UJ7cfGyt7P0XwS95tnhZNV1u8NIdMbEuHx5tBljBHIRRQPDwqY607S/9SmhK7+RN9Z IWQRQfKlRUtEUUCKs+oVWAtDQeElHfxNrKquLkTLIoJvl4U+GOGAAYEko7PqcGRZh03E 8w== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint5 (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [184.51.33.60] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2xkyjx0yd1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:26:23 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 00IIHoG3009644; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:26:22 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2xm0vbg6e0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 18 Jan 2020 10:26:22 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:26:21 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 13:26:21 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Christopher Wood , "TLS@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS Thread-Index: AQHVzObAx4Nq+gleXEykRWoetH6OdqfwrPCAgABkDAD//67GgA== Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:26:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> <6ea16346-d6a3-4d10-a61f-afad27c960c2@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6ea16346-d6a3-4d10-a61f-afad27c960c2@www.fastmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.112.80] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-18_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=574 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2001180150 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-18_05:2020-01-16, 2020-01-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=552 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-2001180150 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 18:26:28 -0000 PiAgICAgICJUaGUgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCB3aWxsIGFsc28gcGxhY2UgYSBwcmlvcml0eSBpbiBt aW5pbWl6aW5nIGdyYXR1aXRvdXMgY2hhbmdlcyB0byAoRClUTFMuIg0KICAgIA0KPiAgICBSaWdo dD8gVGhhdCBzZWVtcyBmaW5lIHRvIG1lIQ0KICANCkdyZWF0LCB0aGFua3MuDQoNCg== From nobody Sat Jan 18 23:32:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF69D120059 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:32:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=QZM8N6f9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=MShjGmU5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t0SE6phylu0p for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3245F120041 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2020 23:32:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C42720222 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject:message-id:date; s= fm1; bh=VxAL+8XfFaP6oqMEJ0Y3fL9E3qV7J1fEiEoT1LPLWMY=; b=QZM8N6f9 W1WUimYsdgHcjWziOYnSRllqrYN99p37bqWJUOBEkE+KSX4KBzM3ym27K3Q1mMQL BTN875AmRV2d9bdNU/HP9Fy0qf+T3Sb8E+WjWvqAiWWMve9zl58cimCOd+5dS/71 9X1P35q8do8Q1nnHxZ2mlv1S+d+NmoZ6iE+QKga4aurGIOWAK/1PjQpb8KvUpODB 5vG1kmN8ZG0LDScYnbnZVWb/UAeJPldlATuM5AqnFbPmRaHT3ChEmC6LmmKaT/5a IZ5cLM3PRvn0CO2r0BGNB09feY/St/LvA7evdkEsWRK3Gp1KMQHptdIgxIvL4sjS JlExTSEkDlJpmw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=VxAL+8XfFaP6oqMEJ0Y3fL9E3qV7J 1fEiEoT1LPLWMY=; b=MShjGmU5MwTL5CPIAwyupULuxFlqwDkwONKcS0xjKw2CR Eiw+ZVYEtl2iRy8QccMJnEcYOWiGohPiRovISJ5WznQcR+hKqQemNo3gOO1+7MBx vtrmNcbGM1oyXKgQy6FiEmNSV6jwW/fInW+enDOzsqCyxMXcXax0OjNhquqxwDte Zo0oja1ejJnRmcuBCe8d1KW79xB49f7K7GwMv5N9RRq0+jbrb3DEDnIlTDQM6F9R lya/1uqOyE/GmCj6KV1ghT5o8G9cWJp7BJoW+ajeMqSXxcm6OqWqw6wSihRM/m6j /Az/o9LmaXXbpAL5JvjAkNSraGTY9LntMbcvCYgsQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddvgdduudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggghffvufesrgdttdertddtjeenuc fhrhhomheptfgvphhoshhithhorhihucettghtihhvihhthicuufhumhhmrghrhicuueho thcuoeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepgh hithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppeegtddruddvuddrudefrddvudenucfrrghrrghmpehm rghilhhfrhhomhepughopghnohhtpghrvghplhihsehmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhush htvghrufhiiigvpedv X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.1.0.4] (unknown [40.121.13.21]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4754C3060B16 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:24 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============1903793884562409936==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: tls@ietf.org Message-Id: <20200119073224.4754C3060B16@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:24 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:32:27 -0000 --===============1903793884562409936== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Issues ------ * tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC2) 2 issues received 2 new comments: - #43 Add support for advertising supported signature schemes (1 by chris= -wood) https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/issues/43=20 - #41 Assign codepoint for delegated_credentials extension (1 by chris-wo= od) https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/issues/41=20 1 issues closed: - Add support for advertising supported signature schemes https://github.= com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/issues/43=20 Pull requests ------------- * tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC1) 1 pull requests received 1 new comments: - #46 Address Issue #43 (1 by chris-wood) https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/pull/46=20 1 pull requests merged: - Address Issue #43 https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts/pull/46=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-esni * https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls13-spec * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls-conn-id * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts * https://github.com/tlswg/oldversions-deprecate * https://github.com/tlswg/sniencryption * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-grease --===============1903793884562409936== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts)

Sunday January 19, 2020

Issues

tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC2)

2 issues received 2 new comments:

1 issues closed:

Pull requests

tlswg/tls-subcerts (+0/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC1)

1 pull requests received 1 new comments:

1 pull requests merged:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============1903793884562409936==-- From nobody Mon Jan 20 13:56:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0638120232 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqCRL9E7Y-Pv for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8611120045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id j1so638322lja.2 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:56:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aMwi9/KUiNLC7R+VDre0h1598zda3aJOSFP9rRA5h6A=; b=bCh1Llh4gr+U5XVi1ZIPpgMXWv9HlFn3GhHa/L1m8Sw7RQat1AaKXH/mTEBnxdtzhp D+3mmXFnOiAtTpfG6bzfE6vbD1unc66EQShVHQOiz7Y10qaTo4TfEYoHqIfDDb2Y6igc SeieYDJuCu8hewUXzGtCK6a9SuW4OgwHolo0vve4sWJ+n8YsJCV1aJ34Y7IWOVHv38Bj bVCiJCvIK6AQpJFojIewpUlY1fdBevJe1kQJ33WFn0tDtd5UMgu9k+wfcND+pTb2Wivl CTyuIggsaaF9va1DI3yqdScZhI5iLGuFEIWNvkRyZeuXyb7Anr95dBvkqk2mDt74cODR QZvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aMwi9/KUiNLC7R+VDre0h1598zda3aJOSFP9rRA5h6A=; b=gVY3mMk9iQZ3s5SPRRDOJEe97yHcULVgD0mlObz98SyqlDxDFZNkth3UhFHe/RPkyY yQJmfR0Lz2Uwqqwn50oxBQLAeCbLaH2fdhUu/RbiAC0S5dkhYltt24Y7su/cfUilJxhP xNLPlx6icBSWMSJlBgykuc5znZ1DDmRi61EzHIU1mA20fH6unZgg45vUeJLPfa57tZlC mJfHIZmIy94nGKujLU5RJ4S5yeqs/DasIeZRpxg1wDOGuQiliZGg0vOSowpu0Wc4LuQX MwcWk1XeBoWzebGFX8rXYEtQyYCjCAmrSIqoGMQCjbhYTe21bFIfN/MUEtU0srsn3cGA JOVA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUjzkREqc4tmYI5Q5KnuJ5uO+Yt+iqtv/cDaUfYwDiYYt6UDKov O9ZqdPaVnf8R1X2+oe5q7TP6V+oqFBrZ4NyA3QP9TTBwwzE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzwjsVdVEjgRiQinAzIa553XswgbafWjF9zJ3vVUC5fCFrug/RTgKHDFk9EEi3My6nnNCCcV+uZ+EOOq7yWJDI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b054:: with SMTP id d20mr14403097ljl.190.1579557359795; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:55:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <0d5254f7-d51f-4519-95ed-29502c61fa2b@www.fastmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 13:55:22 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christopher Wood Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000555292059c995b44" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Re-chartering TLS X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:56:05 -0000 --000000000000555292059c995b44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" LGTM On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:32 PM Christopher Wood wrote: > Hi folks, > > As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group to > reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) and > future work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is available > here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tls/ > > A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. > Please have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing list > or in the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all feedback > is welcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF 107 so we can > move forward with items such as cTLS. > > ~~~ > The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in 1996 > to standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for the > work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working group > has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS protocol > v1.0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446], and > DTLS (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 > [draft-ietf-tls-dtls13], as well as extensions to the protocols and > ciphersuites. > > The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the > applicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in > emerging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that > help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or > extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, > such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on > protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol > changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions > that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this criteria. > > The second working group goal is to improve security, privacy, and > deployability. This includes, for example, Delegated Credentials, Encrypted > SNI, and GREASE. Security and privacy goals will place emphasis on the > following: > > - Encrypt the ClientHello SNI (Server Name Indication) and other > application-sensitive extensions, such as ALPN (Application-Layer Protocol > Negotiation). > - Identify and mitigate other (long-term) user tracking or fingerprinting > vectors enabled by TLS deployments and implementations. > > The third goal is to maintain current and previous version of the (D)TLS > protocol as well as to specify general best practices for use of (D)TLS, > extensions to (D)TLS, and cipher suites. This includes recommendations as > to when a particular version should be deprecated. Changes or additions to > older versions of (D)TLS whether via extensions or ciphersuites are > discouraged and require significant justification to be taken on as work > items. > > With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a priority in > minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS. > ~~~ > > Best, > Chris, on behalf of the chairs > > [1] https://github.com/tlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/charter/charter.md > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000555292059c995b44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
LGTM

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:32 PM Christopher Wood &= lt;caw@heapingbits.net> wrote= :
Hi folks,

As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working group to= reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH) and f= uture work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is available he= re:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/char= ter-ietf-tls/

A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [1]. Plea= se have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing list or in= the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all feedback is w= elcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF 107 so we can mov= e forward with items such as cTLS.

~~~
The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in 1996 to= standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis for t= he work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working group= has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS protocol v1= .0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446], and DTLS = (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 [draft-ietf-tls-dtl= s13], as well as extensions to the protocols and ciphersuites.

The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the applicabi= lity and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in emerging pro= tocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes that help protoco= ls better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protocol, or extensions = that help protocols better leverage TLS security properties, such as Export= ed Authenticators. Extensions that focus specifically on protocol extensibi= lity are also in scope. This goal also includes protocol changes that reduc= e the size of TLS without affecting security. Extensions that help reduce T= LS handshake size meet this criteria.

The second working group goal is to improve security, privacy, and deployab= ility. This includes, for example, Delegated Credentials, Encrypted SNI, an= d GREASE. Security and privacy goals will place emphasis on the following:<= br>
- Encrypt the ClientHello SNI (Server Name Indication) and other applicatio= n-sensitive extensions, such as ALPN (Application-Layer Protocol Negotiatio= n).
- Identify and mitigate other (long-term) user tracking or fingerprinting v= ectors enabled by TLS deployments and implementations.

The third goal is to maintain current and previous version of the (D)TLS pr= otocol as well as to specify general best practices for use of (D)TLS, exte= nsions to (D)TLS, and cipher suites. This includes recommendations as to wh= en a particular version should be deprecated. Changes or additions to older= versions of (D)TLS whether via extensions or ciphersuites are discouraged = and require significant justification to be taken on as work items.

With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a priority in m= inimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS.
~~~

Best,
Chris, on behalf of the chairs

[1] https://github.com/tlswg/wg-= materials/blob/master/charter/charter.md

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
--000000000000555292059c995b44-- From nobody Mon Jan 20 20:01:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54590120045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P_tP1olrgkjg for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf32.google.com (mail-qv1-xf32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7D9112001E for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf32.google.com with SMTP id z3so847241qvn.0 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=mf1cziBuoayORU2i+rCQMb6+P9faQci821fFdrzGYtA=; b=BtTK23h7dnLWZ2xn4GFID3LbviRCdNIpRYsAKLeiLgmgrKB95i1UhPojddxWtO4m00 9Bs8P9OX9CGyZ080eqKxMj9C0QxWsPe288q5XYfTBCChPurAFUBpWL2nReZl11PUEboc Rj73bR2o9ghUJaFa6wzJC8jsjEeKSYiV3E7d4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=mf1cziBuoayORU2i+rCQMb6+P9faQci821fFdrzGYtA=; b=WLralUzo3vALIofxJl3bLpA57ptAml+GM/8oVQgumhfjyQsGkUOmr5feSXHd6YzE0E pzmIuIz+TfezuMTLuux7+1DXO59MMiJtYEespryCEtBr1rqB2sZc+qZxp8wfDWakl53Z qaD7G1BLrxp4NNK4fxHgoNS2vrtgt88PGJydwTCr8FCytSHoCnac8papUc/CPeO97WqI 4NvmJx6FfMGpupDZ0RMZZGJx6bRlO3BvP4cRUmwFUFp+e5PwwqprW92fZcO/FdTPBqtL j5F79+o+CwY4v4Qn8x7OGt/xbJ80avjJHfSuuEDILVOXuq7nOI0IXwAa2+SMH/hs3NvB Rb1g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNHYU4QDAvi5Qwygm1GuayR9bq07rEC4vuWFN6BV5okfk37Q4c lTrj0yBfBbaaXpJ0b3bgMeU/UroFRlM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy8YKkDuThIB0p+FcduIbKf+xQx+fEtHQossXyEebRTSZrFQfXAIIHUmW8NzasdOCaq8+lcGw== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:cdc7:: with SMTP id a7mr2919662qvn.75.1579579266599; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x11sm16877002qkf.50.2020.01.20.20.01.06 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:01:06 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 23:01:05 -0500 To: TLS List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 04:01:14 -0000 At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external PSK = management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produce = a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, = privacy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and = more developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If = you have an interest in participating on this design team, please reply = to this message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. Cheers, Joe and Sean= From nobody Mon Jan 20 20:54:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FD8120045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.514] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L5yXTANpVeOa for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71743120024 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id z12so1305633iln.11 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LynRu8B4BzvKeYEedzsBf64ETaDq+wCVfiqgxX5qEOw=; b=lPaQox+bVc+5Ky+e1Qdw8N5W2f6w5JjwjfD0opDa7rYSQFoyE3Bct1NjlZJZVg1flY 6dBq7VGxyl/jROI7RY3YMZ+LRLtfDj/GEBeMJ1PxFCQx6wqwZ7uokTMJO5Rj31ne5s+l o4hCx6h9X6Kf88xOh9k1KzTLUegzXz/urLa8Scr7K+j1xmPB7Xtx3nyqYBKUflMcOPmJ 6kbgM7rZFCl9jCAnlXTby2dyjIebtXlNQzmuA3De4CZziABBcdiXGyjJsiDtT5+IPmOG DV4OHVi+ixf6BlYFJQgUbtQqzjvApqg+6BemhbRWbFXF66qM2FbLQXArSoQl9+4IpMVI 3TjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LynRu8B4BzvKeYEedzsBf64ETaDq+wCVfiqgxX5qEOw=; b=Ol7YyFrUB4R7F2199tSO94kATOsASC7NWs6gcv29EvFIQsBAOrojwQehcQ4RqBSX7a K1DGnQrDk7SflyowtzXrR04wezU3BBZDG5oTo0PYaJgvV2cjMXUVKN8FyIJ2LhDkYE4z P6nr0Rwd1FunWCvkSOV6dQSNQ6IKdQDNXX+MwB5hvucN6O1fPiaW3GtKhPD26HpXjWR+ dc7nRm11clOkX9L68R/vyVIOxdlAvy0pLpqJs1OuNh8sErIhhjAZmJqv8LJWDOzpS0KI m9VRhilzO6ZOMl9AIpqmeyX7gA03XkVe6hIc30KLN/kCVW83qTxBXB6Tsy4p1OG7+8fV +rXw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWuDhewf/TQysVKkwgjGcoAOel3cqWSYKUOhbKVVwPRCeQmg3TG QYwCShXZcJ4E3qcMaaVjRA0uUm5ugnbT9PC1usI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwY0AGDYGNIS1eeDHztMi4XtT1WCUOzECc0LERRCPTDJoWa7bYBP4s2v1TRbMXUzpHooaZCWAjRZcdQIdEj5TY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:498d:: with SMTP id k13mr2127547ilg.254.1579582451625; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Sayre Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 20:54:00 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: TLS List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ec324f059c9f327e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 04:54:14 -0000 --000000000000ec324f059c9f327e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: > At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external PSK > management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produce a > document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, privacy > concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more > developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have > an interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this > message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. > Today is a holiday in the US, so you might not hear back until folks in the US catch up tomorrow. thanks, Rob --000000000000ec324f059c9f327e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turn= er <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
<= /div>
At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external= PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produc= e a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, privacy= concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more develo= ped mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have an inte= rest in participating on this design team, please reply to this message and= state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020.

= Today is a holiday in the US, so you might not hear back until folks in the= US catch up tomorrow.

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0=
--000000000000ec324f059c9f327e-- From nobody Mon Jan 20 21:04:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84A62120048 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:04:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=RAcjn9gR; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ApKPDTJ5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5wXhS1O4jjV for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0812F120045 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 040F121F85 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:04:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=ntl2dFBnG2KyRBN2+l/eDqHF+BRdPC/ epio64iH9YxY=; b=RAcjn9gRqFGcSjb0fi3busl1QBVOCeiYTI2ySxQSd9bF9Dj G+aveVMiPceX3QehY/NXlEW0sO2xiIYzegwTF3ILwyahnug4fGFXl3yQePtboNOd t2FiuhUOS2A3GuijhNMiIl9+mERjSr9RaE3akDzNsjjEjI1gsQQ02Cg8HhgnGoKo OqjLVYNUlH3WXKJPCerteFTtNce1BwFlzGZkOvlLLkWCSAKTFwRN1pFtQ+LwTZt7 xbRSQNUv+EjuF3fgMUIByouueClwOaKXvhNbYHaGRXo4HaZZ4JP7oDdANqMj7M3q +l1QzBLsGDNwXu6U1TbUBBk69hC3ia6Eu+OH2VQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=ntl2dF BnG2KyRBN2+l/eDqHF+BRdPC/epio64iH9YxY=; b=ApKPDTJ5lnvFP1w3Z13KVu ojB5aY9Icji0wl6cfJeb0u8pHKTjMQiCwVjQVRW4lOLtBEH0enlcODnzZBgdN4Ah ti2OFbTPrzy4hTfWB2YMJcS8I6hsj/vNWzdmpUbdKdJawsN1vyldNimeTdIr9eGo mpBpAD85HmbbRu5GVrZth9qQjCCmUpgdhWiQWlxRc7GAEmC1zNjUnbUMqezaOQF7 UNpLs9k28mEwcXflTLqSgaeqBiSiCsScpjFxsGDf7HdHJLD5j7rXbf2dhY4SdhV/ b0YmJQPevBJ5lwwwn/mPb0NXFOhLZDnxzb47XDFVBJTrU3Gbr8Z32Q+f9854FIjg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudejgdejjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpe hmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 79C1DE00B0; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:04:11 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-754-g09d1619-fmstable-20200113v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20191116103855.GQ20609@akamai.com> <20191116110425.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <556d2210-4af7-b398-fbd7-eab2685d7c62@wizmail.org> <20191116210617.GS34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20191116235952.GR20609@akamai.com> <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 16:03:46 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tls@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:04:15 -0000 On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, at 14:19, David Schinazi wrote: > Regarding Viktor's suggestion, I personally believe it would increase the > complexity of the proposal, and I don't see use-cases compelling enough > to warrant that complexity. I would rather keep this proposal as simple as > possible. I see that I didn't respond to this. I support David's view. Even the suggestion that clients that resume only request one assumes that clients only want one. The client probably knows better than we do. I would rather say nothing about the number and keep it simple. 0 means 0, 1 means 1, N means N. FWIW, the cost of oversupply is often marginal, depending on circumstances. In a client-speaks-first protocol with no client certificate, the server can occupy the first round trip with tickets and generally gain a performance advantage (as sending more will increase the congestion window in most cases). Otherwise, there are usually quiescent periods that can be exploited for sending tickets. And tickets are small, and cheap to generate. With one exception: if you are relying on client authentication and packing that into tickets, I'm sorry. From nobody Mon Jan 20 21:33:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D25E12006E for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.514] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=allcosts-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uj5v9Rze8XcX for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8390120052 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id m8so1713837edi.13 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=allcosts-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9qcOwH1DVTX7md0rgrjsBWSNBvLFdNTyo9nxa1gCdrk=; b=on/O/zKm0slWTLW9VAnpfhtvJTwIsKEEJI6MmMKMTb4HRx+hgmA7GcAFeBvFBdcSmd pxlvbhRnZeW2TS3ScW9cx4IAuwMBLuonJPAhjBF+YjFo/1msqRVzN/6vsopGyvO6FU36 68m5qNIfjjBmuKzHfJ/a72C2AUpk1Oxz95B967feWd5O/HxPZK0F9rnp/zhHsdiLvWv1 OPATUBrYJTw34hVf4vq+d5dgBpbmArX1Fh6lsRWVbLNqvgnLB0iecVp1I0OtV90hYVMg DEYZXj1lLaIjxkhNKkGy/GZoVsGZIT+CVa4u41kt1RGhuc+x5D7anJAmtOo926SBP84V aceQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9qcOwH1DVTX7md0rgrjsBWSNBvLFdNTyo9nxa1gCdrk=; b=NldMIo/9ByWA7H3jxNlNf5dS1K/gh8YVMSxOIU2ghgYaAuGKhSJGawbLFq5Ep3ZDOs jqr5Z9zkAMza7r+1mMDbrWav5AL5wWjFbJUrF2aHv2aEUTjX6d9l9PY4Au1TlqEhI6Uh GaTFCp6Xn5WM2d3jJz0ewys4MazcUjj7YO8/czQXxc1DLe79Oh2BSuQ1cYi57LpZBbKr 6DmNQGE/aqF6SbmbWrn95Kjm/qeSkTRfTyR7zj3WONTu8upucGjGVkwT8lIVCWAND9nj vT0fmOnHuBmIW7wY8n+PUtHEYdLP27bKy7bOG5NgRE5n1emj+2wzGdQo6x2jFny1UWDV dnzw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXivI0AbY0SPGEE2hrjQukOjWG/11N0uDodC/pj3wvRW/P/A8Ja QuEnFCDkZ/DMICLMrxOb1MwgIJfqdfXfXR2umtGD5iYjFts= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyDV/TF9xiJqNKUd8SYtUKRKPp4Z0iq7M9OXDUPKklNsQ2JHLJI7L07S6aR2Sma03L3/sUBHVrHS0dH7pFoClc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:2e53:: with SMTP id r19mr2715088eji.306.1579584815103; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Colm_MacC=C3=A1rthaigh?= Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:33:20 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: TLS List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:33:38 -0000 Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been working on at Amazo= n. On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: > > At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external PSK = management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produce a d= ocument that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, privacy conc= erns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more developed m= itigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have an interest = in participating on this design team, please reply to this message and stat= e so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. > > Cheers, > > Joe and Sean > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls --=20 Colm From nobody Mon Jan 20 21:54:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FD5120096 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:54:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UTdgppmAKLk0 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAFA3120071 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 21:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2A77348FFB; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:54:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:54:11 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <20191116210617.GS34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20191116235952.GR20609@akamai.com> <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:54:15 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, at 14:19, David Schinazi wrote: > > Regarding Viktor's suggestion, I personally believe it would increase the > > complexity of the proposal, and I don't see use-cases compelling enough > > to warrant that complexity. I would rather keep this proposal as simple as > > possible. > > I see that I didn't respond to this. I support David's view. > > Even the suggestion that clients that resume only request one assumes > that clients only want one. The client probably knows better than we > do. I would rather say nothing about the number and keep it simple. 0 > means 0, 1 means 1, N means N. The proposal has since been simplified. With 1 meaning 1, 2 meaning 2, ... The only change is that 0 and 255 become special, with 255 meaning definitely no tickets, and 0 meaning tickets only if the server sees a need a replace the presented ticket. Otherwise, the client has no way to request refresh only if needed, and must ask for 1 just in case. Unnecessary tickets are a waste server and client resources and bandwidth, and make external caches "hot" on clients that are perfectly fine with a slowly changing series of multi-use tickets. > FWIW, the cost of oversupply is often marginal, depending on > circumstances. In a client-speaks-first protocol with no client > certificate, the server can occupy the first round trip with tickets > and generally gain a performance advantage (as sending more will > increase the congestion window in most cases). This is useless for clients with just a single mult-use slot in their ticket cache. Not everything is a web browser. > Otherwise, there are usually quiescent periods that can be exploited > for sending tickets. And tickets are small, and cheap to generate. > With one exception: if you are relying on client authentication and > packing that into tickets, I'm sorry. There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). -- Viktor. From nobody Tue Jan 21 00:29:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A9B1200E6 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:29:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2m5OMNDX8mNI for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x544.google.com (mail-ed1-x544.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::544]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DC51120043 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x544.google.com with SMTP id dc19so2107447edb.10 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:29:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZPKj63q1ib5JN+Z/3pEXzqgwDcWhubuNcbFlA83lmV8=; b=pX+KcqYHmUJ7JMQIA7tItYyHOeby2o+X1pHy5OGaD1wFzSMVz2d1+dilJEpAdrOjJs ztNRBqDXEhK3wyhS3E8YoDWfdW/vG/yD0gsa1cxXKJIWxzs8NDaT1RV9wOD21jdHV4FH w1CCbJwWWOoM2wlI4L3+VODa8Nqi9T8EdgGa4HMTDJkhl7lJy0AJIVFXQzmJ/jc9ldA4 utHOW8Brb4SYVhm+iJPluFmQHZ/neiLag+AsguIQYGkbXo0Yb5prj2TP522QDxxstgq0 68rg8lwqPBoPsCgmAOgb09K/qaxG6kkgqTCAzxTsqbAul8rb+4V2HUBI5g/H9NaGcqyf i1Fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZPKj63q1ib5JN+Z/3pEXzqgwDcWhubuNcbFlA83lmV8=; b=lUIvjYLdDeEo/GzUXcEi1ZuYIshpa3tHQ0qbWyLG/+mK1wNbj9Sn/FHTVk6SiuxYhb Zvg2UhcUOufFcenbGHU9sncpuheMBoZg+bQESruzIWACKAf+EvWob7H33dUOq/mhrYvQ /vUMmNaq6kOZZ3vn8weBWg4Q5YZIq6h9OCCXKnc5YYenAiUsdaUZFwXWjkKPDH9YBcq0 HwYPS1sDB4rX2kZBRJ5P7y+ywt4mKO+qJ+dO2NExpNe8hXtlICTyL8+H+4bl+djdUJpp fgjJsCazmBLe8zmzQ54RTt6FBkhMUJiKxN/GRgYpLEhIAQUyDMBpik92Qc9w2hluf/sK 1PFg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFP9Pqzy+/ywPHhADCEqrGmv6EMukyTTCTpeB/lxvswgELerp6 kuCEIen67W/4UKHYA2P1lC3mfWI9/A1YyKlHMrdjoIAJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwF/g7xT3z/YulOprWYEAcNsDQW9CdU6gaxZcotUDSta/fNDgGrmE9iaPTs94j6cxSmm06Cg5TfQFEtkxEfOpw= X-Received: by 2002:a50:9b03:: with SMTP id o3mr2814023edi.371.1579595388628; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 00:29:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Justice Parham Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 03:29:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: tls@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000730bc059ca2368b" Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] ESNI Android Implementation X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 08:29:52 -0000 --0000000000000730bc059ca2368b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello tlsWG, First I would like to introduce myself to you. My name is Justice Parham (github mrsylerpowers) a current Senior Undergraduate Student at North Carolina A&T State University. As my senior project I decided to create a android system wide implementation of the ESNI Draft. I am planning on implementing draft-ietf-tls-esni-02 because this is the version that cloudflare currently has published on their servers. I am planning on upgrading to newer versions of ESNI as more implementations come out on the server side My question to everyone is if creating this implementation will hurt or help this document? I would really like for this to be a standard that is used everywhere in every browser and in every computer. But I understand draft-ietf-tls-sni-encryption 3.4 's importance about not sticking out. Is there a time where vendors all plan to implement or do you think this is a perfect time to create this? --0000000000000730bc059ca2368b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello tlsWG,

First I would like to introduce myself to you. My name i= s Justice Parham (github mrsylerpowers) a current Senior Undergraduate Stud= ent at North Carolina A&T State University. As my senior=C2=A0project I= decided to create a android system wide implementation of the ESNI Draft. = I am planning on implementing=C2=A0draft-ietf-tls-esni-02 because=C2=A0this= is the version that cloudflare currently has published on their servers. I am planning on upgrading to ne= wer versions of ESNI as more implementations=C2=A0come out on the server si= de

My question to everyone is if creating thi= s implementation=C2=A0will hurt or help this document? I would really like = for this to be a standard that is used everywhere in every browser and in e= very computer. But I understand=C2=A0draft-ietf= -tls-sni-encryption 3.4's importance about not sticking out. Is the= re a time where vendors all plan to implement or do you think this is a per= fect time to create this?
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 08:57:57 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 16:54, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal > is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively > on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). I don't find your arguments persuasive. This adds complexity specifically to address a case that has - in the general case - suboptimal characteristics, both in terms of forward secrecy and linkability. Whether or not there are specific cases that might tolerate these suboptimalities, the complexity and risks are borne by everyone. This is clearly a subjective call, so I'll step back now. From nobody Tue Jan 21 01:16:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C572B1200B3 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpfOAoDdLZOs for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1332E12008D for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 01:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0D3E849144; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 04:16:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 04:16:18 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121091618.GK73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:16:21 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 07:57:27PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 16:54, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > > There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal > > is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively > > on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). > > I don't find your arguments persuasive. This adds complexity > specifically to address a case that has - in the general case - > suboptimal characteristics, both in terms of forward secrecy and > linkability. Whether or not there are specific cases that might > tolerate these suboptimalities, the complexity and risks are borne by > everyone. * Switching to a new ticket is of no help if the server is still using the same STEK. Any forward-secrecy concerns are a function of the frequency of STEK rotation on the server. * We work in noticeably different application spaces. SMTP client MTAs send 220 greetings and EHLO commands identifying themselves in the clear prior to the STARTTLS handshake. MTAs don't roam from network to network, and linkability of traffic is not a concern. * Postfix, for example, rotates STEKs by default once an hour, making the forward-secrecy exposure quite limited. * Clients don't use the same ticket indefinitely, they too discard stale tickets, if the server does not beat them to it. The requested change is rather minimal, it merely asks the server to intepret 0 as "optional ticket" rather than "no ticket" reserving the last code point (not uncommon to have make it special) as a no-go sentinel. Even if the proposal is not compelling for some, it allows additional legitimate use-cases at negligible cost. So barring some actual problem, it is hard to see on what basis it can be reasonably excluded. That's all from me. Thanks. -- Viktor. 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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 02:49:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6b080bb0-bdb5-c424-c6c8-596fbeadb588@ericsson.com> <815ea7c9-b0ce-b0e3-3763-1cda6fe1b5b0@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <815ea7c9-b0ce-b0e3-3763-1cda6fe1b5b0@ericsson.com> From: Jonathan Hoyland Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:49:42 +0000 Message-ID: To: Mohit Sethi M Cc: =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIEhhYXNl?= , =?UTF-8?Q?Colm_MacC=C3=A1rthaigh?= , Sean Turner , TLS List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fdb570059ca42a1b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:50:00 -0000 --000000000000fdb570059ca42a1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, This is something I'm very interested in. Definitely want to participate. Regards, Jonathan On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M wrote: > I would let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs > and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing PAKEs. > > --Mohit > > On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote: > > Hello to all, > > > > I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that in > some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually requi= re > high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where the PSK = is > actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 digit PIN). > > > > In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an PSK-style > TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be implemented > with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to conventional EC= DH > session key generation). > > > > Yours, > > > > Bj=C3=B6rn. > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards > > > > Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase > > > > > > Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware > > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlingen > | Germany > > Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 > > bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG > > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > > Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: > > Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 > > Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella > > > > > > Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu > informieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. > > Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis = ( > https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endress+hauser-website) nach. > > > > > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: > > > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity t= o > which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or > privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other u= se > of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons > or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you recei= ve > this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any > computer. This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract > amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and > conspicuously designated or stated as such. > > > > > > > > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: TLS Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45 > > An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh ; Sean Turner > > Cc: TLS List > > Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team > > > > I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some > > consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties, > > whether the parties can switch roles, etc. > > > > EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of > > privacy/identities will pop-up there too. > > > > --Mohit > > > > On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote: > >> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been working on at > Amazon. > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: > >>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external > PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produ= ce > a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, privacy > concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more > developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have > an interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this > message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Joe and Sean > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> TLS mailing list > >>> TLS@ietf.org > >>> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endr= ess.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b= 7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BH= SJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endr= ess.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b= 7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BH= SJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000fdb570059ca42a1b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,=C2=A0

This is something I'm= very=C2=A0interested in.=C2=A0

Definitely want to= participate.

Regards,

Jonathan

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M <mohit.m.sethi=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
I would= let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/a= rch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs
and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing PAKEs.

--Mohit

On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote:
> Hello to all,
>
> I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that in = some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually require= high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where the PSK i= s actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 digit PIN).=
>
> In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an PSK-s= tyle TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be implement= ed with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to conventional E= CDH session key generation).
>
> Yours,
>
> Bj=C3=B6rn.
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards
>
> Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase
>
>
> Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware
> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlinge= n | Germany
> Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221
> bjoern.h= aase@endress.com |=C2=A0 www.conducta.endress.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen
> Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin:
> Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929
> Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu i= nformieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben.
> Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis= (https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endres= s+hauser-website) nach.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>
>
> Disclaimer:
>
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity = to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or = privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use= of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons = or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive= this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any = computer. This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amen= dment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and conspicuo= usly designated or stated as such.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>
> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: TLS <tls-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45
> An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh <colm@allcosts.net>; Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
> Cc: TLS List <tls= @ietf.org>
> Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team
>
> I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some
> consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties,
> whether the parties can switch roles, etc.
>
> EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of
> privacy/identities will pop-up there too.
>
> --Mohit
>
> On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote:
>> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been workin= g on at Amazon.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on ex= ternal PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to = produce a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, p= rivacy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more = developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have a= n interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this messa= ge and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joe and Sean
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TLS mailing list
>>> TLS@ietf.org=
>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.ou= tlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&= amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79= e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&= ;amp;sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&amp= ;reserved=3D0
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list
> TLS@ietf.org
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.co= m/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&amp;data= =3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%= 7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&amp;sda= ta=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&amp;reserve= d=3D0
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TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:26:07 +0000 From: Mohit Sethi M To: =?utf-8?B?QmrDtnJuIEhhYXNl?= CC: TLS List Thread-Topic: [TLS] External PSK design team Thread-Index: AQHV0E2SjDmfjGvr+ki2tvSwyoIaSw== Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:26:06 +0000 Message-ID: <36da7d3d-52df-7038-b647-de8ae8c3d14a@ericsson.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:14bb:140:3307:cc1e:8406:7a73:dca9] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 57b83436-7398-4aef-c6cd-08d79e64b53e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR0701MB2758: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0289B6431E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(136003)(376002)(346002)(189003)(199004)(478600001)(8936002)(5660300002)(4326008)(81156014)(81166006)(186003)(36756003)(8676002)(66446008)(76116006)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(64756008)(6916009)(66574012)(966005)(31686004)(6506007)(53546011)(6512007)(2906002)(15974865002)(6486002)(86362001)(31696002)(2616005)(316002)(71200400001); 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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:47:30 +0000 From: Mohit Sethi M To: Mohit Sethi M , =?utf-8?B?QmrDtnJuIEhhYXNl?= CC: TLS List Thread-Topic: [TLS] External PSK design team Thread-Index: AQHV0E2SjDmfjGvr+ki2tvSwyoIaS6f1AIMA Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:47:30 +0000 Message-ID: <75e3028f-1920-882c-84e4-bf60737551d8@ericsson.com> References: <36da7d3d-52df-7038-b647-de8ae8c3d14a@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <36da7d3d-52df-7038-b647-de8ae8c3d14a@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mohit.m.sethi@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:14bb:140:3307:cc1e:8406:7a73:dca9] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ed35f1e3-10c2-4a8e-1fd9-08d79e67b280 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR0701MB2741: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0289B6431E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ed35f1e3-10c2-4a8e-1fd9-08d79e67b280 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Jan 2020 11:47:30.9326 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DH36PMFKFsTM4kkduRU0yu4OeECXgsiGXE7Oj8sIYDO2bQ7pEXW2mdVzNxwhVhr2rUwuIBhJRxmxKNYrU8/qtmxDaZhKcFw984Eua2Gdtdg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0701MB2741 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." 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Tue, 21 Jan 2020 06:52:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6b080bb0-bdb5-c424-c6c8-596fbeadb588@ericsson.com> <815ea7c9-b0ce-b0e3-3763-1cda6fe1b5b0@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 06:52:22 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Hoyland Cc: Mohit Sethi M , =?UTF-8?B?QmrDtnJuIEhhYXNl?= , TLS List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000052f3a6059ca790c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:53:05 -0000 --00000000000052f3a6059ca790c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am willing to contribute. -Ekr On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:50 AM Jonathan Hoyland wrote: > Hi All, > > This is something I'm very interested in. > > Definitely want to participate. > > Regards, > > Jonathan > > On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> I would let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process: >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs >> and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing PAKEs. >> >> --Mohit >> >> On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote: >> > Hello to all, >> > >> > I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that in >> some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually requ= ire >> high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where the PSK= is >> actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 digit PIN)= . >> > >> > In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an PSK-style >> TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be implemented >> with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to conventional E= CDH >> session key generation). >> > >> > Yours, >> > >> > Bj=C3=B6rn. >> > >> > >> > >> > Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards >> > >> > Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase >> > >> > >> > Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware >> > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlinge= n >> | Germany >> > Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 >> > bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG >> > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 >> > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >> > Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: >> > Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH >> > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >> > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 >> > Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella >> > >> > >> > Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu >> informieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. >> > Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis= ( >> https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endress+hauser-website) nach. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Disclaimer: >> > >> > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity >> to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/= or >> privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other = use >> of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by person= s >> or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you rece= ive >> this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from an= y >> computer. This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract >> amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and >> conspicuously designated or stated as such. >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> > Von: TLS Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M >> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45 >> > An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh ; Sean Turner >> > Cc: TLS List >> > Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team >> > >> > I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some >> > consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties, >> > whether the parties can switch roles, etc. >> > >> > EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of >> > privacy/identities will pop-up there too. >> > >> > --Mohit >> > >> > On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote: >> >> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been working on at >> Amazon. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: >> >>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external >> PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to prod= uce >> a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, privac= y >> concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more >> developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you hav= e >> an interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this >> message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> >> >>> Joe and Sean >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> TLS mailing list >> >>> TLS@ietf.org >> >>> >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.= ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40end= ress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92= b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2B= HSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TLS mailing list >> > TLS@ietf.org >> > >> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.= ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40end= ress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92= b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2B= HSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --00000000000052f3a6059ca790c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am willing to contribute.

= -Ekr


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:50 AM Jonathan Hoyland &= lt;jonathan.hoyland@gmail.com= > wrote:
=
Hi All,=C2=A0

This is something I'm= very=C2=A0interested in.=C2=A0

Definitely want to= participate.

Regards,

Jonathan

On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M <mohit.m.sethi=3D40ericsson.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:
I would let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/a= rch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs
and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing PAKEs.

--Mohit

On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote:
> Hello to all,
>
> I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that in = some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually require= high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where the PSK i= s actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 digit PIN).=
>
> In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an PSK-s= tyle TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be implement= ed with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to conventional E= CDH session key generation).
>
> Yours,
>
> Bj=C3=B6rn.
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards
>
> Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase
>
>
> Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware
> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlinge= n | Germany
> Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221
> bjoern.h= aase@endress.com |=C2=A0 www.conducta.endress.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen
> Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin:
> Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH
> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen
> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929
> Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
> Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu i= nformieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben.
> Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis= (https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endres= s+hauser-website) nach.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>
>
> Disclaimer:
>
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity = to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or = privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use= of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons = or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive= this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any = computer. This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amen= dment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and conspicuo= usly designated or stated as such.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
>
> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: TLS <tls-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45
> An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh <colm@allcosts.net>; Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>
> Cc: TLS List <tls= @ietf.org>
> Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team
>
> I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some
> consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties,
> whether the parties can switch roles, etc.
>
> EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of
> privacy/identities will pop-up there too.
>
> --Mohit
>
> On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote:
>> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been workin= g on at Amazon.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
>>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on ex= ternal PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to = produce a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, p= rivacy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more = developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have a= n interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this messa= ge and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joe and Sean
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TLS mailing list
>>> TLS@ietf.org=
>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.ou= tlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&= amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79= e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&= ;amp;sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&amp= ;reserved=3D0
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list
> TLS@ietf.org
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.co= m/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&amp;data= =3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%= 7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&amp;sda= ta=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&amp;reserve= d=3D0
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:10:41 -0000 Sean: I can help with this design team. Russ > On Jan 20, 2020, at 11:01 PM, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external = PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to = produce a document that discusses considerations for using external = PSKs, privacy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, = and more developed mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. = If you have an interest in participating on this design team, please = reply to this message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Joe and Sean From nobody Tue Jan 21 07:17:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA0A12012E for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvHHuF4pMQFu for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACBE1120857 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id j1so3200449lja.2 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Dii2gWFX2K7eWOmeYHQEia5RrO3WYJZ5BtZ9OviI0vs=; b=N1dyAcsmLWH3j3Y2F6qG0imR0eXiZBl64/miVX5TZF0JI8PUbMwh1Cht1FAK3poPx9 Aku3hdgL7kVl0UU5qy2NtHLVbS9mFJW+QcNzckSXXtCkoXq5XqIwkkpWFiWWxeobCKDB HonM+nMu65kOpp5mPyQv24ryht9Wc8mlLSVUuUCLwTOnowVNWrSE0IS743uLVfLzbGsR z/YUW2WIeS0fUW4l2h2pvXPCEcS8z+uLDn2hfabbZhwM/9+AlzilOR+oDbzck8TGT2Xw 4cw767Lvbir8KlGqpEoJX5tjihnvRocdwc9wdMQhOCtGOiC/6aoMBE6Yacw0iUTlUpEX lRhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Dii2gWFX2K7eWOmeYHQEia5RrO3WYJZ5BtZ9OviI0vs=; b=nSW8Yhh3El2du0aLiLDObzXuyAGOzI0MnOPvVh9rvZQWPeg1gXTtlGAjj5lIO2tuci 2T97GzdhPYHh3BaSmvY4p9PYDPL5fkWeoDSJfO1qIClxlUP4BWE7tKjW5qnamtI5qhvj IBP2sYPRyBx6Ur1t1tQfDk3uxdgxzQW4sJaqzzoOmX5Ncq8KxEpGUqQkdVHlEpSP4tTl K94Ava/k0WK7ZUQkEUE2sOYFwkDq5RbQL15r9sOYwym7LGzPlLyDtMeIGCf6OZCzWQnr map8mYkuvaXP2h5KrFJrgRujema4VDQLIMZ9rjkBmwVVr1+IdIX7eZAXBwKISm+QsYtW 83Fw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVoQOZxIfwBQcPi+btTQqNOEAd0ll4Ldv7ntQ2AlFyaJZpvEP0N HZK2oBWpE2TSOXVpunjyVzpBu6UtFKKiabZbeXyIdCf4Akc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzZm6FT5BJxOcDxTuBbM0Rxw+yuxigHNyb1UJncv901hUOcIXrnxqhduSZZEEUeCXyYrnXqAc6cGHSuRlxIxZc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9e43:: with SMTP id g3mr4383813ljk.37.1579619861950; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191116210617.GS34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20191116235952.GR20609@akamai.com> <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 07:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Cc: "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c0851e059ca7e810" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:17:56 -0000 --000000000000c0851e059ca7e810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I agree with Martin that this is unnecessary complexity. In addition, I would note that switching to a new ticket *does* help even if the server is using the same STEK because it improves privacy. -Ekr On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 16:54, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > > There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal > > is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively > > on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). > > I don't find your arguments persuasive. This adds complexity specifically > to address a case that has - in the general case - suboptimal > characteristics, both in terms of forward secrecy and linkability. Whether > or not there are specific cases that might tolerate these suboptimalities, > the complexity and risks are borne by everyone. > > This is clearly a subjective call, so I'll step back now. > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000c0851e059ca7e810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Martin that this is unnecessary complexi= ty.

In addition, I would note that switching = to a new ticket *does* help even if the server is using the same STEK becau= se it improves privacy.

-Ekr


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 12:58 AM Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020, at 16:54, Viktor D= ukhovni wrote:
> There's no need to exclude valid use-cases.=C2=A0 The refined prop= osal
> is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively
> on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...).
I don't find your arguments persuasive.=C2=A0 This adds complexity spec= ifically to address a case that has - in the general case - suboptimal char= acteristics, both in terms of forward secrecy and linkability.=C2=A0 Whethe= r or not there are specific cases that might tolerate these suboptimalities= , the complexity and risks are borne by everyone.

This is clearly a subjective call, so I'll step back now.

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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0BHiAe8YtrV for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:44:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECC8A1209FE for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 41CD94972C; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:44:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:44:01 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121174401.GN73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:44:05 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 07:17:05AM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I agree with Martin that this is unnecessary complexity. The objections stated are non-responsive, and dismiss a valid use-case. There is ZERO additional complexity. - Servers will already range-check the requested ticket count and impose some local policy limit. Treating a request for 255 as "no tickets please" is NOT complex. - Clients that want fresh tickets will send the same request they already would have but capped at 254 instead of 255 tickets. That's NOT complex. My proposal only excludes 255 as a valid ticket count. Nobody can justifiably insist that it is essential for servers to be able to vend up to exactly 255 (and not up to 254) tickets. The extension as *currently* formulated breaks ticket re-use when employed, it is not possible for a client to signal that it would prefer to re-use its ticket. When the extension is not sent, the server can't distinguish between clients that have not yet adopted it, and clients that wish re-use tickets, so has to make the wrong guess for at least one of the two cases. > In addition, I would note that switching to a new ticket *does* help even > if the server is using the same STEK because it improves privacy. But, as I've explained already, SMTP MTAs are a legitimate use case in which privacy is explicitly not expected. * SMTP MTAs do not and cannot expect privacy against network-layer traffic analysis. They operate from fixed IPs, with PTRs mapping back to their hostnames, whose "reputation" they rely on for deliverability, and announce their identity in 220 greetings, EHLO commands and EHLO responses in the clear! [VALID USE CASE] * My proposal, does not FORCE anyone to use either of the special values 0 or 255, they can still ask for 1..254 tickets, with *zero* change of behaviour. Only clients that want to not get a ticket at all, or not get one every time, are affected by the change. Other clients do nothing different, they just send an extension asking for a number of tickets in [1,254]. [ZERO COST TO PRIVACY USE CASE] * All servers have to do is: - Send [1,254] (likely fewer at the high end) tickets when that many are requested, as before. [ With or without my proposal, they'll still do a range check of some sort to compare with their local policy limits. ] - Send no tickets when 255 are requested, a negligible adjustment to their range check. - Send 1 ticket when 0 are requested and they don't support re-use, or the received ticket is invalid (support for ticket re-use which worked - send 0 tickets are 0 are requested and the received ticket is still valid. [ZERO COST TO SERVER USE CASE, plus makes possible to signal and support ticket reuse] It is unjust to deny a ZERO COST valid use-case just because that's not the use-case one is most familiar with. This is the TLS working group, not the browser HTTPS working group, and needs to be open to more than than one use-case. -- Viktor. From nobody Tue Jan 21 09:47:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3307E120808 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:47:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTJW13acdJUX for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31B95120170 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8C478494FD; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:47:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:47:22 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121174722.GO73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:47:24 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 03:24:50PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > > This is clearly a subjective call, so I'll step back now. > > Yes it is. But I will say that I agree with you and think the > cleverness introduced by the "255 is magic" proposal is not warranted. Really? TLS has no sentinel code ponts? No SCSVs? This is not a substantive objection. -- Viktor. From nobody Tue Jan 21 10:20:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD7F12003F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:20:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yvR4dgixgMir for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FF8B120013 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 10:20:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 21:18:42 -0000 --0000000000007c957c059cacf394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I would make several points here: 1. RFC 8446 explicitly discourages ticket reuse (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=8446#appendix-C.4). so we should not be designing an extension to enable reuse. While it's potentially true that some applications do not benefit from non-reuse, creating a set of mechanisms around reuse risks those mechanisms being used in settings where reuse would be bad. Moreover. just because at present sending MTAs have weak privacy properties does not mean that we should bake in this situation permanently. 2. The additional cost of multiple tickets seems extraordinarily small, so I am not at all persuaded that there is enough value in this use case to justify adding new protocol machinery, even ignoring point (1) above. 3. If there *is* such value, then you can register your own extension which allows you to say the orthogonal thing, namely "don't send me any tickets at all if you are resuming". This would be more flexible in that you could then say "I would like 10 tickets, but only if you don't resume". Note that https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ would allow you to do this efficiently. Thus, I would prefer to advance this document as-is. -Ekr On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 9:54 PM Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, at 14:19, David Schinazi wrote: > > > Regarding Viktor's suggestion, I personally believe it would increase > the > > > complexity of the proposal, and I don't see use-cases compelling enough > > > to warrant that complexity. I would rather keep this proposal as > simple as > > > possible. > > > > I see that I didn't respond to this. I support David's view. > > > > Even the suggestion that clients that resume only request one assumes > > that clients only want one. The client probably knows better than we > > do. I would rather say nothing about the number and keep it simple. 0 > > means 0, 1 means 1, N means N. > > The proposal has since been simplified. With 1 meaning 1, 2 meaning 2, > .... The only change is that 0 and 255 become special, with 255 meaning > definitely no tickets, and 0 meaning tickets only if the server sees a > need a replace the presented ticket. Otherwise, the client has no way > to request refresh only if needed, and must ask for 1 just in case. > > Unnecessary tickets are a waste server and client resources and > bandwidth, and make external caches "hot" on clients that are perfectly > fine with a slowly changing series of multi-use tickets. > > > > FWIW, the cost of oversupply is often marginal, depending on > > circumstances. In a client-speaks-first protocol with no client > > certificate, the server can occupy the first round trip with tickets > > and generally gain a performance advantage (as sending more will > > increase the congestion window in most cases). > > This is useless for clients with just a single mult-use slot in their > ticket cache. Not everything is a web browser. > > > Otherwise, there are usually quiescent periods that can be exploited > > for sending tickets. And tickets are small, and cheap to generate. > > With one exception: if you are relying on client authentication and > > packing that into tickets, I'm sorry. > > There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal > is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively > on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). > > -- > Viktor. > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --0000000000007c957c059cacf394 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would make several points here:

1. RFC 8446 expli= citly discourages ticket reuse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?= doc=3D8446#appendix-C.4). so we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0should not be designing= an extension to enable reuse. While it's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0potentially t= rue that some applications do not benefit from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0non-reuse, c= reating a set of mechanisms around reuse risks those
=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechan= isms being used in settings where reuse would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0bad. Moreo= ver. just because at present sending MTAs have weak
=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy= properties does not mean that we should bake in this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0situa= tion permanently.

2. The additional cost of multiple tickets seems e= xtraordinarily
=C2=A0 =C2=A0small, so I am not at all persuaded that the= re is enough value in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this use case to justify adding new p= rotocol machinery, even
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring point (1) above.

3.= If there *is* such value, then you can register your own extension
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0which allows you to say the orthogonal thing, namely "don= 9;t send me
=C2=A0 =C2=A0any tickets at all if you are resuming". T= his would be more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0flexible in that you could then say "= ;I would like 10 tickets, but
=C2=A0 =C2=A0only if you don't resume&= quot;. Note that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls= -tlsflags/ would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow you to do this efficiently.
<= br>Thus, I would prefer to advance this document as-is.

-Ekr

=









On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 9:54 PM Viktor = Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.o= rg> wrote:
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
--0000000000007c957c059cacf394-- From nobody Tue Jan 21 14:46:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9366A12006F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:46:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VWf35NQ1maBr for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C6AA12002E for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BE10449A6F; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:46:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:46:10 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121224610.GR73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:46:15 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 01:17:59PM -0800, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I would make several points here: > > 1. RFC 8446 explicitly discourages ticket reuse > (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=8446#appendix-C.4). so we > should not be designing an extension to enable reuse. While it's > potentially true that some applications do not benefit from > non-reuse, creating a set of mechanisms around reuse risks those > mechanisms being used in settings where reuse would be > bad. Moreover. just because at present sending MTAs have weak > privacy properties does not mean that we should bake in this > situation permanently. Indeed I agree that ticket reuse is often undesirable, and expect that it will be avoided in many cases. So I am somewhat sympathetic to the above as a starting point for the analysis. That said, I don't see that making reuse easier to negotiate is likely to create significant opportunities for misuse. - Both the client *and* the server would need to opt-in to reuse. * Even if the client asks for reuse, the server can invalidate the old ticket (something it would need to be able to do already to ensure non-reuse) and send a fresh one anyway. The client would have to replace the old with the new, since it has to assume that the old is now likely invalid. * Even if the server is willing to reuse, if the client asks for a new ticket, the server has to assume the client has a single-use cache, and should vend a new ticket. so it takes bilateral coordination to arrive at reuse, and so accidental reuse in applications where it is inappropriate requires errors on both ends. > 2. The additional cost of multiple tickets seems extraordinarily > small, so I am not at all persuaded that there is enough value in > this use case to justify adding new protocol machinery, even > ignoring point (1) above. Postfix has a shared cache (indexed by destination domain+mx host) for multiple independent processes racing to use the cache to make remote SMTP connections. Frequent writes to that cache create measurable overhead and still don't prevent reuse. Transmission of unnecessary tickets is also wasteful of network and other server resources. Erasing tickets on first use would be unwise, most existing servers will not presently return a fresh ticket on resumption. > 3. If there *is* such value, then you can register your own extension > which allows you to say the orthogonal thing, namely "don't send me > any tickets at all if you are resuming". This would be more > flexible in that you could then say "I would like 10 tickets, but > only if you don't resume". Note that > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ would > allow you to do this efficiently. This is an interesting idea, but how would the two extensions interact? And wouldn't that interaction add more complexity? By hypothesis clients that are willing to reuse tickets don't really need more than one at a time. Is there a clear use case for multiple concurrent reusable tickets. > Thus, I would prefer to advance this document as-is. Thanks for the substantive response. Much appreciated. I hope you're willing to address the above reaction, I am trying to find common ground that addresses your concerns and mine. -- Viktor. From nobody Tue Jan 21 14:53:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F289120639 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:53:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nWgdIKJlV5jJ for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11854120846 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 56A9149A73; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:53:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:53:28 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200121225328.GS73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121224610.GR73491@straasha.imrryr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200121224610.GR73491@straasha.imrryr.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:53:34 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 05:46:10PM -0500, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > > 2. The additional cost of multiple tickets seems extraordinarily > > small, so I am not at all persuaded that there is enough value in > > this use case to justify adding new protocol machinery, even > > ignoring point (1) above. > > Postfix has a shared cache (indexed by destination domain+mx host) for > multiple independent processes racing to use the cache to make remote > SMTP connections. I should add that currently Postfix servers with OpenSSL 1.1.1 (i.e. with TLS 1.3 support) always send 0 tickets on resumption, i.e. expect that SMTP clients are willing to reuse the previously vended ticket. Thus a key benefit of the proposed refinement to the extension would be to allow SMTP clients that want a fresh ticket to unambiguously signal that intent, and thereby allow *greater* use of single-use tickets. It would also Postfix differentiate between MTAs and MUAs, where the latter are likely to want fresh tickets, but even on port 587 or 465, not all clients are MUAs, some are null-client MTAs relaying to a "smarthost". -- Viktor. From nobody Tue Jan 21 17:32:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819FF12002F for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:32:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HvQS39azCJJ for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-f49.google.com (mail-ua1-f49.google.com [209.85.222.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51079120013 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-f49.google.com with SMTP id 73so1821117uac.6 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:32:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fdxLi7klJ9IGQbcvGeP0suUHvESG+Yh2aNVg08W5Uhg=; b=bm22jtNTyWqUjLZvjqLtEgADXonO4hbA7wihPQBMKGRGbjWgpw8q1omMuYg96t+5yO +POFpPPt8B4ZjqubuG+romCtubMD4nGaT1VbIR+WmWYtioJoHv58oickC8ErGAupFRA8 N3LSUp++GbXyFLN5W5oF95JmxJ0qXufiDn9a4ascA7Eif0RQ8sqTgKdOOPWxfjiPkicn u7jMYBbOMWorDv189kayraOaIb7hAjCpTgZv4takFjk/FGua5SfLx6JMVP9rG8zL9KC8 EYrY+o7EGz1/xfsQU7RqKvIgWh4OrZJJfEBXZNg9DZAaOAnv9fOjiFxcfkKmUc0ywk8l q5Og== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU4YvrxjeXECiGQUWhEaEMkCFExT2uMSpwfMTSf9Q0o/1ThkI8M H1txzYkCmIFips8DKGaMpsi1Q9GcbBj7mRYsIydNKhtGIpLxiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyU335Tu8vkrE8xMUyh2n7lPhJmZHI7W7V2g6QdlqBIWbW0NN6dqmoqJX1DPsCegPRtwTz2kYXRagY+0864X9Y= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:6881:: with SMTP id t1mr4815969uar.88.1579656753330; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:32:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191116210617.GS34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20191116235952.GR20609@akamai.com> <20191117002249.GV34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 20:32:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a63c1e059cb07f5d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 01:32:37 -0000 --000000000000a63c1e059cb07f5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support the proposal from Viktor. It is important to minimize the involved resource and provide the client the ability to explicitly inform the server its policy. As explained above, this mechanism comes with no additional complexity and address a full range of applications. See below my comments inline: Yours, Daniel On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:19 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I would make several points here: > > 1. RFC 8446 explicitly discourages ticket reuse > (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=8446#appendix-C.4). so we > should not be designing an extension to enable reuse. While it's > potentially true that some applications do not benefit from > non-reuse, creating a set of mechanisms around reuse risks those > mechanisms being used in settings where reuse would be > bad. Moreover. just because at present sending MTAs have weak > privacy properties does not mean that we should bake in this > situation permanently. > Appendix C.4 discourages the re-use of tickets to avoid passive monitoring. This recommendation only applies when privacy is involved, and other use cases exist (VNF, IoT, MTA,...). This is not *potentially* true, this is simply true. These use cases are considered by RFC8446 and thus need be considered in this proposal. > > 2. The additional cost of multiple tickets seems extraordinarily > small, so I am not at all persuaded that there is enough value in > this use case to justify adding new protocol machinery, even > ignoring point (1) above. > > As explained before, the *machinery* is also largely exaggerated. Those for who the cost of generating ticket is so extraordinarily small actually do not need this extension and can generate an extra large number of tickets (at no cost for them). This statement seems to contradict at least the Less ticket waste use case. In addition, saving cost per connection scales the number of connections which is not negligible. 3. If there *is* such value, then you can register your own extension > which allows you to say the orthogonal thing, namely "don't send me > any tickets at all if you are resuming". This would be more > flexible in that you could then say "I would like 10 tickets, but > only if you don't resume". Note that > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ would > allow you to do this efficiently. > It is unclear to me why, in this case, this would apply specially to Viktor's proposal rather the counter proposal. > > Thus, I would prefer to advance this document as-is. > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 9:54 PM Viktor Dukhovni > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 04:03:46PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, at 14:19, David Schinazi wrote: >> > > Regarding Viktor's suggestion, I personally believe it would increase >> the >> > > complexity of the proposal, and I don't see use-cases compelling >> enough >> > > to warrant that complexity. I would rather keep this proposal as >> simple as >> > > possible. >> > >> > I see that I didn't respond to this. I support David's view. >> > >> > Even the suggestion that clients that resume only request one assumes >> > that clients only want one. The client probably knows better than we >> > do. I would rather say nothing about the number and keep it simple. 0 >> > means 0, 1 means 1, N means N. >> >> The proposal has since been simplified. With 1 meaning 1, 2 meaning 2, >> ..... The only change is that 0 and 255 become special, with 255 meaning >> definitely no tickets, and 0 meaning tickets only if the server sees a >> need a replace the presented ticket. Otherwise, the client has no way >> to request refresh only if needed, and must ask for 1 just in case. >> >> Unnecessary tickets are a waste server and client resources and >> bandwidth, and make external caches "hot" on clients that are perfectly >> fine with a slowly changing series of multi-use tickets. >> >> >> > FWIW, the cost of oversupply is often marginal, depending on >> > circumstances. In a client-speaks-first protocol with no client >> > certificate, the server can occupy the first round trip with tickets >> > and generally gain a performance advantage (as sending more will >> > increase the congestion window in most cases). >> >> This is useless for clients with just a single mult-use slot in their >> ticket cache. Not everything is a web browser. >> >> > Otherwise, there are usually quiescent periods that can be exploited >> > for sending tickets. And tickets are small, and cheap to generate. >> > With one exception: if you are relying on client authentication and >> > packing that into tickets, I'm sorry. >> >> There's no need to exclude valid use-cases. The refined proposal >> is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively >> on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...). >> >> -- >> Viktor. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000a63c1e059cb07f5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support the proposal from Viktor. It is= important to minimize the involved resource and provide the client the abi= lity to explicitly inform the server its policy.

As explained above= , this mechanism comes with no additional complexity and address a full ran= ge of applications.=C2=A0

See belo= w my comments inline:

Yours,=C2=A0
Daniel
On Tue, Jan 21, 2= 020 at 4:19 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.c= om> wrote:
I would make several points here:

1. RFC 8446 exp= licitly discourages ticket reuse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(https://tools= .ietf.org/rfcmarkup?doc=3D8446#appendix-C.4). so we
=C2=A0 =C2=A0sho= uld not be designing an extension to enable reuse. While it's
=C2=A0= =C2=A0potentially true that some applications do not benefit from
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0non-reuse, creating a set of mechanisms around reuse risks those<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms being used in settings where reuse would be
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0bad. Moreover. just because at present sending MTAs have weak<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0privacy properties does not mean that we should bake in thi= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0situation permanently.
=C2=A0<= /div>
=C2=A0Appendix C.4 discourages the re-use of tickets to avoid pas= sive monitoring. This recommendation only applies when privacy is involved,= and other use cases exist (VNF, IoT, MTA,...). This is not *potentially* t= rue, this is simply true. These use cases are considered by RFC8446 and thu= s need be considered in this proposal. =C2=A0

2. The additional cost of m= ultiple tickets seems extraordinarily
=C2=A0 =C2=A0small, so I am not at= all persuaded that there is enough value in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0this use case = to justify adding new protocol machinery, even
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ignoring poi= nt (1) above.


As explained before, the *machinery* is also largely exaggerated.=C2=A0Thos= e for who the cost of generating ticket is so=20 extraordinarily small actually do not need this extension and can generate = an extra large number of tickets (at no cost for them).=C2=A0 This statement seems to contradict at least the Less ticket waste use case.= =C2=A0 In addition, saving cost per connection scales the number of connections w= hich is not negligible.=C2=A0

3. If there *is* such value, then= you can register your own extension
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which allows you to sa= y the orthogonal thing, namely "don't send me
=C2=A0 =C2=A0any = tickets at all if you are resuming". This would be more
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0flexible in that you could then say "I would like 10 tickets, but=C2=A0 =C2=A0only if you don't resume". Note that
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0allow you to do this efficiently.

On Mon, Jan 20, = 2020 at 9:54 PM Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 04:03:46= PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, at 14:19, David Schinazi wrote:
> > Regarding Viktor's suggestion, I personally believe it would = increase the
> > complexity of the proposal, and I don't see use-cases compell= ing enough
> > to warrant that complexity. I would rather keep this proposal as = simple as
> > possible.
>
> I see that I didn't respond to this.=C2=A0 I support David's v= iew.
>
> Even the suggestion that clients that resume only request one assumes<= br> > that clients only want one.=C2=A0 The client probably knows better tha= n we
> do.=C2=A0 I would rather say nothing about the number and keep it simp= le. 0
> means 0, 1 means 1, N means N.

The proposal has since been simplified. With 1 meaning 1, 2 meaning 2,
.....=C2=A0 The only change is that 0 and 255 become special, with 255 mean= ing
definitely no tickets, and 0 meaning tickets only if the server sees a
need a replace the presented ticket.=C2=A0 Otherwise, the client has no way=
to request refresh only if needed, and must ask for 1 just in case.

Unnecessary tickets are a waste server and client resources and
bandwidth, and make external caches "hot" on clients that are per= fectly
fine with a slowly changing series of multi-use tickets.


> FWIW, the cost of oversupply is often marginal, depending on
> circumstances.=C2=A0 In a client-speaks-first protocol with no client<= br> > certificate, the server can occupy the first round trip with tickets > and generally gain a performance advantage (as sending more will
> increase the congestion window in most cases).

This is useless for clients with just a single mult-use slot in their
ticket cache.=C2=A0 Not everything is a web browser.

> Otherwise, there are usually quiescent periods that can be exploited > for sending tickets.=C2=A0 And tickets are small, and cheap to generat= e.
> With one exception: if you are relying on client authentication and > packing that into tickets, I'm sorry.

There's no need to exclude valid use-cases.=C2=A0 The refined proposal<= br> is rather non-invasive, and handles this case cost-effectively
on clients that re-use tickets (and don't use early-data, ...).

--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Viktor.

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
--000000000000a63c1e059cb07f5d-- From nobody Wed Jan 22 07:54:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4609C1200BA; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 07:54:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <157970845920.12234.17371579405441447541@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 07:54:19 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-02.txt X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 15:54:19 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Layer Security WG of the IETF. Title : Deprecating MD5 and SHA-1 signature hashes in TLS 1.2 Authors : Loganaden Velvindron Kathleen Moriarty Alessandro Ghedini Filename : draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-02.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2020-01-22 Abstract: The MD5 and SHA-1 hashing algorithms are steadily weakening in strength and their deprecation process should begin for their use in TLS 1.2 digital signatures. However, this document does not deprecate SHA-1 in HMAC for record protection. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jan 22 09:17:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E90812024E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBCPIzZ0Er31 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B547012020A for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id c17so443426qkg.7 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=kqA+1nKVXeyg0fw9TdtpszmY0ysO2eOMFNr3SagajUs=; b=SaKp/+G4mQ5Wow/J76yN11OPXRtA3NdZMS1tGFB5bKTO5q+uaPimn2Ks9Mhl7LZSiH mAe26KsJusuVWyIp+ngx6Wv/XPGLa1xsJA/vtkmccliQvyP/L41hgK32R2zGj0VBFZbX pcO3XdcLF3Z0zJorPPsZyGsQ2siiXTJ6MLp/M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=kqA+1nKVXeyg0fw9TdtpszmY0ysO2eOMFNr3SagajUs=; b=c2WTuuzv9tfuUtD1uynOIsue7WvVIXs9xBLGTuJKkjaKOW3TgoTylPiWVPwlBZdeqw oMdCigH6CWHhbpcpERhY2y1KEBRSNcd2mmjkWxWKmW44KD8p7IhlmBnOcNO2kKAKJyM1 kvHFPh2grdf4gwuyhbSGkthaUaEvo7csDTmiFO0yLH0ENO8nU4tJeG3ML90YyKOtldka lfFHQ5hGzDQJhgn1OHfw+1jiXHc+wsiqjfPTWgwhiiKx/60LplHgz0diF/zZ3oKCcE0V nzrA293/EUyxEBtRDU/90/QC4fEvpbA59mxevZXd6QYnkXGhiWYacFLSFP8IU1FZL8+h D1Vw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW1UT6o7HtkUtFCqc9ReKQbprlO8+qGbOvuDFqnisTc3x/Uo5i2 bVPhgp7awKODbhx61y0sOMSBExnIMXg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzSY+Y1HurcJvNecFR5UwjLTXqJWY9kGyej+xbwZ19XEbX9wzqeBl3QLtHWp5+ZMhR27Zly5g== X-Received: by 2002:a37:4702:: with SMTP id u2mr11396498qka.106.1579713446424; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u57sm21134088qth.68.2020.01.22.09.17.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <19B416A1-2605-4EA1-9E89-744C17B35F2E@sn3rd.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:17:25 -0500 To: TLS List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] code point assignments for draft-ietf-tls-subcerts X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:17:35 -0000 Hi! The chairs want to determine whether we should ask for the assignments = requested in draft-ietf-tls-subcerts [0][1]. We believe the draft is = stable enough and that there is interest from multiple implementers. = Please let the WG know by 2359 UTC 05 February 2020 whether you disagree = with these code point allocations and why. What follows are the two request of IANA; one for the TLS DEs and one = for the PKIX DE: 1. TLS ExtensionType Registry Request This document registers the "delegated_credentials" extension in the "TLS ExtensionType Values" registry. The "delegated_credentials" extension has been assigned a code point of TBD. The IANA registry lists this extension as "Recommended" (i.e., "Y") and indicates that it may appear in the ClientHello (CH), CertificateRequest (CR), or Certificate (CT) messages in TLS 1.3 [RFC8446]. 2. SMI Security for PKIX Registry Request This document also defines an ASN.1 module for the DelegationUsage certificate extension in Appendix A. IANA is requested to register an Object Identifier (OID) for the ASN.1 in "SMI Security for PKIX Module Identifier" arc. An OID for the DelegationUsage certificate extension is not needed as it is already assigned to the extension from Cloudflare's IANA Private Enterprise Number (PEN) arc. Cheers, Joe, Chris, and Sean [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-subcerts/ [1] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts= From nobody Wed Jan 22 09:24:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AD8120233 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:24:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QI7dpQL6hLrh for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x832.google.com (mail-qt1-x832.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::832]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 397A7120108 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id v25so149071qto.7 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:24:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sDXC0sqr8NF9PTmahL4ElcQxsxEv8iYlQc/DipYbmgM=; b=h3XY+D/B5jGu2Ynn2LQUyl5f0LkTy6g3tUDVWa4w+hUmueBlEjQoLc+/CyctNQhFZj E2vsMtLRNULE9WbutX+HOHH6C7i7Wa4cBQi3pyRyrVlPBypkPR4ACgrtwIPmZcUXL8d4 9IbhVOEqmGUVLQ5QisLK1i9eWJE5Gxb9HmCtM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sDXC0sqr8NF9PTmahL4ElcQxsxEv8iYlQc/DipYbmgM=; b=K0t4X1gCqCgmrkPRxOiu1LjPtHFkdD/hx6M0tlAuPEycgpNHyTp37rZKZZokAufJKf atZreHiI3v79VIxwn9h/emsOERdKl691aqQvvK4F2DoqzPGuzgJeiEzbLRLNHRQ0OAgM zfktiSD9/IpbFgAspSoGfBypSMBBZq/QFSGNbJ9uldDGGDRN6+Y6lpHX5JFD1/pcR41a 2pj0i7XUmeJzDeG+1dQQhXmrXbs3+yYC8yj18DF8kzH2seOJiHXq6AXMXnzDN68nqgqb xP54e8Rn/ZA8nQHPkfRUmHF0y25Sg2bZy5xKE6tWQb0iqlPXM2podetBR3Ur92NY5WhO iRDw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWDqFrgo/t/rx2etZrY4EP+5oTnxotE2MkKEKN574wnUYR21maH r8gsup821CMTmZVEki4WWEmV7V0ALzM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwr8AB1GVBElYfsNmgS5BLT3EiOWoN28UevN/kvXUBP29/A/qvxfFJxJAd0eeK5LA7wXIVAQQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:a83:: with SMTP id d3mr11742444qti.228.1579713839140; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 2sm19084856qkv.98.2020.01.22.09.23.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:23:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Sean Turner In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 12:23:57 -0500 Cc: TLS List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <96B7FA74-983E-4CB5-AD13-D9982A86EAC7@sn3rd.com> References: To: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Haase?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team // Scope for "Low-entropy PSK" applications X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:24:05 -0000 Hit Bj=C3=B6rn, This DT grew out of discussions related to = draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer. Ben (our AD) suggested that we = start a DT to have a standalone document to describe considerations for = how to USE the PSKs to avoid various attacks. The chairs would prefer = to keep this DT focused on that particular topic and not expand it to = =E2=80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D. As the =E2=80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D problem seems wrapped up with = the CFRG=E2=80=99s PAKE selection, we think that it would be better = addressed after that decision has been taken. We are not saying you or = anyone else cannot work on this topic, but we do not think that we = should not consider standing up a DT until the decision has been taken. Chris, Joe, and Sean > On Jan 21, 2020, at 11:03, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase = wrote: >=20 > A question regarding the scope of the PSK design team: > =20 > In my opinion there is definitely a need for a secure solution for = =E2=80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D approaches. It seems that this topic = does not seem to be within the scope that Sethi Mohit did have in mind.=20= > If this topic would be out of the scope of the PSK design team, would = there be another team working on this =E2=80=9CLow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D = aspect? > =20 > Yours, > =20 > Bj=C3=B6rn > =20 > Von: Eric Rescorla =20 > Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 15:52 > An: Jonathan Hoyland > Cc: Mohit Sethi M ; = Bj=C3=B6rn Haase ; TLS List > Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team > =20 > I am willing to contribute. > =20 > -Ekr > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:50 AM Jonathan Hoyland = wrote: > Hi All,=20 > =20 > This is something I'm very interested in.=20 > =20 > Definitely want to participate. > =20 > Regards, >=20 > Jonathan > =20 > On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M = wrote: > I would let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process:=20 > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs=20= > and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing = PAKEs. >=20 > --Mohit >=20 > On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote: > > Hello to all, > > > > I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that = in some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually = require high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where = the PSK is actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 = digit PIN). > > > > In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an = PSK-style TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be = implemented with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to = conventional ECDH session key generation). > > > > Yours, > > > > Bj=C3=B6rn. > > > > > > > > Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards > > > > Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase > > > > > > Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware > > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 = Gerlingen | Germany > > Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 > > bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG > > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > > Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: > > Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH > > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 > > Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella > > > > =20 > > Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu = informieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. > > Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem = Datenschutzhinweis = (https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endress+hauser-website) nach. > > > > =20 > > > > > > > > Disclaimer: > > > > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or = entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, = proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, = dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, = this information by persons or entities other than the intended = recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact = the sender and delete the material from any computer. This e-mail does = not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance = of a contract offer unless explicitly and conspicuously designated or = stated as such. > > =20 > > > > > >=20 >=20 > Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards=20 >=20 > Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase=20 >=20 > Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 = Gerlingen | Germany > Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 > bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com=20 >=20 > Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: > Endress+Hauser Conducta > Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH > Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen > Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 > Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella >=20 > Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu = informieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. >=20 > Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis = nach. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Disclaimer:=20 >=20 > The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity = to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, = and/or privileged > material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, = or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or = entities > other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this = in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any = computer. > This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract = amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and = conspicuously designated or stated as such. >=20 > =20 >=20 > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: TLS Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45 > > An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh ; Sean Turner = > > Cc: TLS List > > Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team > > > > I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some > > consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties, > > whether the parties can switch roles, etc. > > > > EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of > > privacy/identities will pop-up there too. > > > > --Mohit > > > > On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote: > >> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been working on = at Amazon. > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: > >>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on = external PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would = be to produce a document that discusses considerations for using = external PSKs, privacy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable = identities, and more developed mitigations for deployment problems such = as Selfie. If you have an interest in participating on this design team, = please reply to this message and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Joe and Sean > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> TLS mailing list > >>> TLS@ietf.org > >>> = https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie= tf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endr= ess.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92= b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2= BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > = https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie= tf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40endr= ess.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81adc92= b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%2F%2= BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Wed Jan 22 12:30:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA9C120131 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:30:36 -0000 Thank's for the clearification. Having a document clearly specifying how external PSK could be securely used is a good idea. I did not aim at blocking useful work with new features! The root of my question and my motivation is, that just today, I have received a draft of an industrial protocol specification that suggests the use of PSK mechanisms in conjunction with passwords :-(. Even if the spec. says, "you should use at least 16 characters digits and special characters, randomly chosen", I am having a quite clear expectation on what the actual real-world users will be doing ... The first step would be to clearly specifying and documenting the secure use of PSK, e.g. by pointing out that using passwords as PSK this is *not* a good idea. (I think that there is already somewhere documentation on this, but something *really* explicit is certainly helpful.) Personally, I'd be willing to spend time and effort for preparing and helping with the second step: *Resolving* the issue of accidental mis-use of PSK, by integrating a PAKE into TLS. My ambition would be that the resulting PAKE / "Low-Entropy PSK" mechanism is so efficient and easy to use and integrate, that no overhead in comparison to conventional Diffie-Hellmann is perceiveable. If everything ends up nicely, one might even consider replacing the PSK mechanism in favor of a more misuse resistant PAKE approach (maybe some day in the far far future :-)). Yours, Bj=C3=B6rn Am 22.01.2020 um 18:23 schrieb Sean Turner: > Hit Bj=C3=B6rn, > > This DT grew out of discussions related to draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-i= mporter. Ben (our AD) suggested that we start a DT to have a standalone d= ocument to describe considerations for how to USE the PSKs to avoid variou= s attacks. The chairs would prefer to keep this DT focused on that partic= ular topic and not expand it to =E2=80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D. > > As the =E2=80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D problem seems wrapped up with t= he CFRG=E2=80=99s PAKE selection, we think that it would be better address= ed after that decision has been taken. We are not saying you or anyone el= se cannot work on this topic, but we do not think that we should not consi= der standing up a DT until the decision has been taken. > > Chris, Joe, and Sean > >> On Jan 21, 2020, at 11:03, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase = wrote: >> >> A question regarding the scope of the PSK design team: >> >> In my opinion there is definitely a need for a secure solution for =E2= =80=9Clow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D approaches. It seems that this topic does n= ot seem to be within the scope that Sethi Mohit did have in mind. >> If this topic would be out of the scope of the PSK design team, would t= here be another team working on this =E2=80=9CLow-entropy PSK=E2=80=9D asp= ect? >> >> Yours, >> >> Bj=C3=B6rn >> >> Von: Eric Rescorla >> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 15:52 >> An: Jonathan Hoyland >> Cc: Mohit Sethi M ; Bj= =C3=B6rn Haase ; TLS List >> Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team >> >> I am willing to contribute. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 2:50 AM Jonathan Hoyland wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> This is something I'm very interested in. >> >> Definitely want to participate. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jonathan >> >> On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 at 10:04, Mohit Sethi M wrote: >> I would let CFRG deal with the PAKE selection process: >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/-a1sW3jK_5avmb98zmFbCNLmpAs >> and not have this design team spend time and energy on designing PAKEs. >> >> --Mohit >> >> On 1/21/20 11:52 AM, Bj=C3=B6rn Haase wrote: >>> Hello to all, >>> >>> I am also willing to contribute. My concern is that I observe that in = some industrial control applications, PSK mechanisms (that actually requir= e high-entropy keys) are (mis)-used in conjunction with TLS, where the PSK= is actually of insufficient entropy (maybe derived only from a 4 digit PI= N). >>> >>> In order to fix this issue, I'd really appreciate to have an PSK-style= TLS operation using a balanced PAKE (note that this could be implemented = with virtually no computational overhead in comparison to conventional ECD= H session key generation). >>> >>> Yours, >>> >>> Bj=C3=B6rn. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards >>> >>> Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase >>> >>> >>> Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware >>> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlinge= n | Germany >>> Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 >>> bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG >>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 >>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >>> Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: >>> Endress+Hauser Conducta Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH >>> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >>> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 >>> Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella >>> >>> >>> Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu i= nformieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. >>> Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis= (https://www.endress.com/de/cookies-endress+hauser-website) nach. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Disclaimer: >>> >>> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity = to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or= privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other u= se of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by perso= ns or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you rec= eive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from= any computer. This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contrac= t amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and co= nspicuously designated or stated as such. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Mit freundlichen Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fen I Best Regards >> >> Dr. Bj=C3=B6rn Haase >> >> Senior Expert Electronics | TGREH Electronics Hardware >> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG | Dieselstrasse 24 | 70839 Gerlingen= | Germany >> Phone: +49 7156 209 377 | Fax: +49 7156 209 221 >> bjoern.haase@endress.com | www.conducta.endress.com >> >> Endress+Hauser Conducta GmbH+Co.KG >> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201908 >> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >> Pers=C3=B6nlich haftende Gesellschafterin: >> Endress+Hauser Conducta >> Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH >> Sitz der Gesellschaft: Gerlingen >> Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 201929 >> Gesch=C3=A4ftsf=C3=BChrer: Dr. Manfred Jagiella >> >> Gem=C3=A4ss Datenschutzgrundverordnung sind wir verpflichtet, Sie zu in= formieren, wenn wir personenbezogene Daten von Ihnen erheben. >> >> Dieser Informationspflicht kommen wir mit folgendem Datenschutzhinweis = nach. >> >> >> >> Disclaimer: >> >> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity t= o which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or = privileged >> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or= taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or ent= ities >> other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in= error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any compute= r. >> This e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment,= or an acceptance of a contract offer unless explicitly and conspicuously = designated or stated as such. >> >> >> >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: TLS Im Auftrag von Mohit Sethi M >>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Januar 2020 10:45 >>> An: Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh ; Sean Turner >>> Cc: TLS List >>> Betreff: Re: [TLS] External PSK design team >>> >>> I am certainly interested and willing to contribute. We need some >>> consensus on whether PSKs can be shared with more than 2 parties, >>> whether the parties can switch roles, etc. >>> >>> EMU is going to work on EAP-TLS-PSK and the question of >>> privacy/identities will pop-up there too. >>> >>> --Mohit >>> >>> On 1/21/20 7:33 AM, Colm MacC=C3=A1rthaigh wrote: >>>> Interested, as it happens - this is something I've been working on at= Amazon. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 8:01 PM Sean Turner wrote: >>>>> At IETF 106, we discussed forming a design team to focus on external= PSK management and usage for TLS. The goal of this team would be to produ= ce a document that discusses considerations for using external PSKs, priva= cy concerns (and possible mitigations) for stable identities, and more dev= eloped mitigations for deployment problems such as Selfie. If you have an = interest in participating on this design team, please reply to this messag= e and state so by 2359 UTC 31 January 2020. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Joe and Sean >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> TLS mailing list >>>>> TLS@ietf.org >>>>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F= www.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%= 40endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f8= 1adc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzU= P%2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TLS mailing list >>> TLS@ietf.org >>> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww= w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftls&data=3D02%7C01%7Cbjoern.haase%40= endress.com%7C5af7f9dcd2f746b6638a08d79e56a7dc%7C52daf2a93b734da4ac6a3f81a= dc92b7e%7C1%7C0%7C637151967330246544&sdata=3Dxtt%2F1mxS0XbrTQ8mExdzUP%= 2F%2BHSJKrXANsVqsX%2F4sUZA%3D&reserved=3D0 >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Wed Jan 22 16:56:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA2912010E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:55:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7NY61UYlGEru for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (blue.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5DBE12004E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:55:56 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBC48C1A1B; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:55:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-89-22.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.89.22]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B264D8C1BB1; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:55:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:55:56 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Wipe-Inform: 4c73a1683689753b_1579740955975_484427585 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1579740955975:1975952418 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1579740955974 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6816816CA; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:55:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=xOsoHN1hgLFA5a TqvMS8vfcUz2U=; b=fc22TVVXIfrcYbOmDVy0Dg2wwOd5d2x8/VBvm8fb63x+jd YA38VdYXJ54mgM4YfGQO9UDtIF5Wmb0UzKsbDa0oZpYRVWXp8cge5f1KDIXwCYTP v2Qs2KelGHMvmqdjX5ojtz2O0r9r/LO9Zow3vNNB47ziRMFGCeign8ni1PQBc= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2F279816C6; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:55:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:55:49 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a13 From: Nico Williams To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Martin Thomson , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> References: <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvddugddvhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:55:59 -0000 On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 06:19:23PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > Viktor and I spoke in more detail. The use-case he brings up makes > more sense to me now. The key observation is that this is not about a I also spoke to Viktor, and he explained the motivation in detail. He really should have done so on the list, but it is this: TL;DR: Postfix multi-process ticket cache DB thrashing pain. - Postfix (which he co-maintains) is a multi-process service (with client and server functionality -- it's an MTA, after all) - Postfix needs a multi-process ticket cache w/ concurrency - OpenSSL provices no such thing, only a single process in-memory cache, and also callbacks the app can use to implement its own cache, which then Postfix uses to implement a multi-process ticket cache - So, getting unnecessary tickets thrashes Postfix's shared cache, which costs a fair bit due to synchronization There are two ways to make this tolerable for Postfix: - either the TLS server says "here's a ticket and you MUST or MAY replace the one you already had" or - the TLS client gets to ask for no unnecessary new tickets Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. That's why Viktor would prefer the other way: let the client ask for no unnecessary new tickets. This has the benefit of saving some bandwidth and server cycles. Now, as to the privacy issue. The server can simply always issue a new ticket, even if the client didn't want it -- presumably MTAs wouldn't, but HTTP servers would. And there is no way for -say- a great firewall to force you to not get new tickets as the server can still always hand the client one, and anyways, this extension can be (should be!) encrypted, so the firewall can't know anyways. All a great firewall gets to see is that your connections can or can't be linked. Especially given Viktor's use case, we can assume (and require, evven) that only SMTP MTAs might request no new unnecessary tickets, so that great firewalls really can make no assumptions about this in HTTP use cases, say. > "client" in the conventional (or browser) sense, but rather more like > a peer-to-peer kind of thing, where the client is just the one who > initiates a connection and might be multiple processes running on > multiple instances sharing an identity. > > I'm in favor of his suggestion. Me too. It's really very simple. There is no legitimate "unnecessarily complex" argument; such arguments come across as unnecessarily dismissive. There is a privacy non-issue, addressed as above, though it's fair to demand that it be addressed. Regarding the "define your own extension" responses... That's fine, I suppose, but why ever bother with WGLCs for these if changes that benefit others will generally be rejected out of hand? Why require TLS WG review of extensions? Why not just make an Expert Review registry? I think the answer to the last question is that we're not ready for that -- we want some WG review, and, presumably, we want some commonality. So, unless we're going to go with Expert Review only, then please do not make this "define your own" argument -- it's at the very least impolite. Nico PS: Viktor tells me that hey, I've advised him to keep posts pithy, thus he elided all the above explanation, but really, IMO, he should have explained in detail. From nobody Wed Jan 22 17:12:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C6B12004E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cloudflare.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zekpH9QfRX9e for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AFD412002E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id e5so1225436qtm.6 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cloudflare.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rxpm/Vx5spkvWltIWpesiq/lJFO2D5Qy84X83h9z2Ag=; b=TlZkSQVtownCEKB3VXOgnlhJgOB0p2H/xgYBfzmaPVSIk5rvLzOP+l6p912uGjXolW Xk2nahDEtHPrz65eXxZA03lxi2UYn7TaygNOc+Ui0rU/gEfXkKuRQdQlKXwdE7U3NS6V nLkxAhWa0JVIESk4tOR3iNJVE1pMHzm+0/H1c= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rxpm/Vx5spkvWltIWpesiq/lJFO2D5Qy84X83h9z2Ag=; b=I/1bcSIhrAnF4B1lY53ANU+lRXga2uiRLfoo1GP8nxv5+23V0SM6Sid++js8p5/bWs Rt2Qj6r9GfmiV1/rY1wSmmFGaTOq6ZfjN1P9apgLpy7QFLZPxS8A1XDEyh9XNb/eA3QM IINl6/O2YBXrqCm/73xJ8fizeuVtBi+gm1AFU8YvSm3n+JL3R5N7Tdt1DzpDbqvwDSgf PTjYZ3Cq4MMQxpGKdVqRpMEO16gBHh5ebwe85ByEXJDLKfPEPBXnEerYmsnAEKm12Wz1 iMIVoL6JwacTzXCDhDtUGMGLoULrRcxWlQOs3MdzWmuWNaxJSSsyFlTwGOEO+6ZGQrTF /vfw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWopkSkdy2kH0Tp7/yOiwcyjcNXdEPEK14yEtO4UKSarYRN5aQw aXfu6+52RROHnOCeFY9+CGQpnKRRVe328lZzUkk2Hw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxQphM3ZRavx4NvpHDlpaYGkgnEbJwpsxK+k9uChljWLSXbaddjyIf7QpuUz60egVTKNSZMFe44xgMtdhPvghg= X-Received: by 2002:aed:38c9:: with SMTP id k67mr14090392qte.29.1579741965336; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <14690874-E301-4BC0-B385-00DEBCBA94C2@apple.com> <20191120034812.GQ34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> From: Watson Ladd Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:12:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "tls@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 01:12:48 -0000 On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 4:56 PM Nico Williams wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 06:19:23PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > > Viktor and I spoke in more detail. The use-case he brings up makes > > more sense to me now. The key observation is that this is not about a > > I also spoke to Viktor, and he explained the motivation in detail. He > really should have done so on the list, but it is this: > > TL;DR: Postfix multi-process ticket cache DB thrashing pain. > > - Postfix (which he co-maintains) is a multi-process service (with > client and server functionality -- it's an MTA, after all) > > - Postfix needs a multi-process ticket cache w/ concurrency > > - OpenSSL provices no such thing, only a single process in-memory > cache, and also callbacks the app can use to implement its own cache, > which then Postfix uses to implement a multi-process ticket cache > > - So, getting unnecessary tickets thrashes Postfix's shared cache, > which costs a fair bit due to synchronization > > > There are two ways to make this tolerable for Postfix: > > - either the TLS server says "here's a ticket and you MUST or MAY > replace the one you already had" > > or > > - the TLS client gets to ask for no unnecessary new tickets > > Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would > require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive > change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. Nothing says you have to remember tickets, so unless I'm missing something the semantics already are the second one. Am I being silly? Sincerely, Watson From nobody Wed Jan 22 18:15:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE487120089 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIDs-tiDASg4 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F51212006F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 499344ACF6; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:14:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:14:55 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:14:59 -0000 On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 05:12:34PM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > > - either the TLS server says "here's a ticket and you MUST or MAY > > replace the one you already had" > > > > or > > > > - the TLS client gets to ask for no unnecessary new tickets > > > > Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would > > require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive > > change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. > > Nothing says you have to remember tickets, so unless I'm missing > something the semantics already are the second one. I want to use tickets for resumption, so naturally I have to remember them. I also don't actually get to directly see the tickets, rather OpenSSL invokes a "new_session_cb" callback after updating the current session with newly received tickets. Since I have a shared cache, I have to perform the work of storing the updated sesion, so that other SMTP delivery agents get to see the new ticket. I can't just ignore the ticket, since the reason for the new ticket may be that the old one has expired, either after some period of reuse, or because the server only ever issues single-use tickets. The deployed base of Postfix servers issues multi-use tickets (always, there's no extension to tell me otherwise), and sends zero tickets on resumption, so I need to not just throw away tickets that are still valid. -- Viktor. From nobody Wed Jan 22 20:34:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E75C312002F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:33:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AEEdQDEsWJT8 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (camel.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C9E812004F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:33:58 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4729142030; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:33:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-11-27.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.11.27]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 25262141141; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:33:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:33:57 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Lonely-Stupid: 17296c8232059475_1579754037386_3563986206 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1579754037386:3067750252 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1579754037385 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7551816E9; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:33:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=wGK23hukr6oekj 6Oq8ABe6yD0Y0=; b=LDg0jl7MGdeIgHK2Va6kj87hnOjQ0p27mjnejWJ8tP+4Mt L4BYrDEZP8ikyPyav86JzMIKCNl5oogFHsC69jQQQNpQ1+HG+wV1g0YioxxlTo3z 6hUWGkX1Gg//fbKM6K0kXYMoEPbKULi+a3Cg33IuH0TIMG6bxz5OpGeQp+XaA= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 94053816FB; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:33:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 22:33:48 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a13 From: Nico Williams To: Watson Ladd Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200123043347.GB12073@localhost> References: <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvddugdeikecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:34:00 -0000 On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 05:12:34PM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > > Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would > > require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive > > change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. > > Nothing says you have to remember tickets, so unless I'm missing > something the semantics already are the second one. > > Am I being silly? That's the thing: the idea is to have one-time tickets, and keep replacing them as you use them. If that's never the case, then indeed, no change is needed (except maybe to say that it's never the case). Nico -- From nobody Wed Jan 22 20:35:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FAB12004F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:35:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqX4Fr6vpN21 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from egyptian.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (egyptian.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CA7212002F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:35:52 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935105803B9; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:35:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-8-110.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.8.110]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 18AFF58004D; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:35:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:35:51 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Oafish-Spill: 5f485b69212a2b34_1579754151346_4187319628 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1579754151346:4159651594 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1579754151345 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEAB816E0; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:35:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ve5/6RH4w6YTGd 33IZcTX5eTRkY=; b=lnTndyqcn5LfEyUSDgpSW69f2WMHSmrS2kmG+DL+6LgI+0 dCBlozcNnC3SZpfiPGuYDuMNpP7rYpFwtvyu/DTMqMRbGLxzVWxkzj/CEdKLWv6m i72PpoTajMP2D5PRte4Ltmlz+hrsmxvbVeY48U9Hr2BA1a0Vkk874AdhCrYHw= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97943816ED; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 20:35:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 22:35:43 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a13 From: Nico Williams To: Watson Ladd Cc: "Salz, Rich" , "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200123043541.GC12073@localhost> References: <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123043347.GB12073@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200123043347.GB12073@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvddugdeilecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:35:55 -0000 On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 10:33:48PM -0600, Nico Williams wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 05:12:34PM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > > > Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would > > > require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive > > > change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. > > > > Nothing says you have to remember tickets, so unless I'm missing > > something the semantics already are the second one. > > > > Am I being silly? > > That's the thing: the idea is to have one-time tickets, and keep > replacing them as you use them. > > If that's never the case, then indeed, no change is needed (except maybe > to say that it's never the case). Ay no, per-Viktor's follow-up, the client still needs some additional information. From nobody Thu Jan 23 03:57:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C7E120071 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:57:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5QWDSdw352Xz for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-smtp-1.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-1.mimecast.com [205.139.110.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1ED212004C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 03:57:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1579780656; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=bXLRFMUmMKpVEreaz3aGpcdY87l1iremn2IMPPRDxh0=; b=EbwJwjtqu/6Bjdh9CmS+NRBZTAuPDm6zJkeTcy7kdIwQMcQAwYHgXaMK5BWq3EJJlno/9C PzBJdzW6qUYT36JI0ElUEAQYDa5X6CgU1PYW7qr44w4eE1M3fz6+3aIx0xuRpbBWi8Fhy7 8fV85t99UY9j9jJ8I6qld1On2e1GsSI= Received: from mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (mimecast-mx01.redhat.com [209.132.183.4]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-232-fqcjeZKTMBi5soGcU4oeSw-1; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 06:57:34 -0500 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx03.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 830B98017CC for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.43.21.107]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 305EE8CCDB for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:57:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Hubert Kario To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:57:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> References: <5FBFE820-8C53-4B32-9520-343279C1A6CC@apple.com> <20191120064819.GR34850@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Trojita/0.7; Qt/5.12.5; xcb; Linux; Fedora release 30 (Thirty) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.13 X-MC-Unique: fqcjeZKTMBi5soGcU4oeSw-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:57:40 -0000 On Thursday, 23 January 2020 03:14:55 CET, Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 05:12:34PM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > >>> - either the TLS server says "here's a ticket and you MUST or MAY >>> replace the one you already had" >>>=20 >>> or >>>=20 >>> - the TLS client gets to ask for no unnecessary new tickets >>>=20 >>> Now the first alternative would be infeasible to adopt because it would >>> require new OpenSSL callback APIs, and anyways would be a more invasive >>> change to TLS than the ticketrequest extension makes. >>=20 >> Nothing says you have to remember tickets, so unless I'm missing >> something the semantics already are the second one. > > I want to use tickets for resumption, so naturally I have to remember > them. I also don't actually get to directly see the tickets, rather > OpenSSL invokes a "new_session_cb" callback after updating the current > session with newly received tickets. > > Since I have a shared cache, I have to perform the work of storing the > updated sesion, so that other SMTP delivery agents get to see the new > ticket. > > I can't just ignore the ticket, since the reason for the new ticket may > be that the old one has expired, either after some period of reuse, or > because the server only ever issues single-use tickets. > > The deployed base of Postfix servers issues multi-use tickets (always, > there's no extension to tell me otherwise), and sends zero tickets > on resumption, so I need to not just throw away tickets that are > still valid. I wonder if the approach with a database with strict ACID-ity is the=20 correct one for ticket storage. What I mean, is that, especially in postfix case, using slightly older=20 ticket that it could will have minimal impact on the connection. Thus a database that is basically append only, with clients that look for newest ticket (and disregard races on this lookup) and a garbage-collection process that removes old tickets every few hours will work ok. --=20 Regards, Hubert Kario Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team Web: www.cz.redhat.com Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purky=C5=88ova 115, 612 00 Brno, Czech Republic From nobody Thu Jan 23 04:41:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B702C120099 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:40:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y7UDt1RuI4ZW for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BDA012008F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 04:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6BB2D4B46B; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:40:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:40:55 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:40:59 -0000 On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:57:31PM +0100, Hubert Kario wrote: > > The deployed base of Postfix servers issues multi-use tickets (always, > > there's no extension to tell me otherwise), and sends zero tickets > > on resumption, so I need to not just throw away tickets that are > > still valid. > > I wonder if the approach with a database with strict ACID-ity is the > correct one for ticket storage. It isn't "strict acidity", but there never more than one ticket per peer, stores replace the existing entry, loads read the latest entry stored. > What I mean, is that, especially in postfix case, using slightly older > ticket that it could will have minimal impact on the connection. Slightly older is unavoidable, because time passes between configuring an SSL connection to use a particular session and actually using it. If tickets rotate too fast, busy Postfix SMTP clients will frequently end up with stale tickets, and will fail resumption much of the time. The server accepts reuse, and defaults to assuming that the client is willing to reuse. If the extension provides a tiny bit more signalling at no cost to applications that have no use for reuse, then I'll be able to also support clients that explicitly signal non-reuse (e.g. MUAs talking to a service that is both MSA and SMTP relay). > Thus a database that is basically append only, with clients that look > for newest ticket (and disregard races on this lookup) and a > garbage-collection process that removes old tickets every few hours > will work ok. There is indeed a GC process, but we're using off-the-shelf indexed file dabases (Berkeley DB or LMDB), which are not append only. And in any case, this is rather tangential. The real issue is that I'd like to offer clients that don't reuse a fresh ticket, but allow clients that do reuse to continue to do that. Anyway, I wanted to avoid TL;DR, and just present an argument based largely on: - No actual complexity to those that don't ever want reuse - Pontential savings to those who for some reason do reuse. That really ought to be enough, given that ignoring the reuse case and always issuign a ticket is *free*: /* Hande non-use, ignore reuse, and impose local limit */ if (ticknum == 0) ticknum = 1; else if (ticknum == 255) ticknum = 0; else if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum = ticklimit; /* now proceed as in previously solved problem */ v.s. extension as-is: /* Impose local limit */ if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum = ticklimit; That's a totally trivial change that yields status-quo, but allows other implementations to do something more intelligent with "ticknum == 0". -- Viktor. From nobody Thu Jan 23 09:43:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7641201CE for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uiIbwvpjRwZG for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A1FE120144 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id q8so4467173ljj.11 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kVQtrXlSmYriDl5n6uGN+MNXkwfP4TW2bTFlrPuLcXE=; b=XzclI9HJ1tqdJANWUGxxptATDrkxraHZ7YHkldVCq02cu1XS5fl31Q/X/XoO3ahLpj C75PoEneAiOlWa9Pcpomj4f4ZUTGF4fg7ltYJJqtHHvV3HlTi4NqZst2tTfVra6hhkh9 ddj/XISmIG+j4RgLhptV0KcnG24z24AD0aWop0Dzr8XCEGvqCP1uLS6G+twrE5kX3zWn dPc4gwHYtYJfCucxbvZFmMEpOr9axfFHYUlRhsVENf5L4VKLyfw3lG8t4d9vZnRDfjy3 RQisSEiHTHL39H6W67k1lllXFBw94GhPfzknraxjww6IVHcfYbbDcbppeoRao6Qs9r6E wYNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=kVQtrXlSmYriDl5n6uGN+MNXkwfP4TW2bTFlrPuLcXE=; b=oa1dIs79c06JMQoiKF7Rat4Gg8ugCmzCUUPAcbXq/TaN0U8T5dsP45yT1qvcNABxk3 +XScDOW7AXDn+hdkj4xRx+ar357WbHfGA0VvrPaEoYuDbtSO89rnFSmq40yj8qAseX6y +hoIO1VN4EF7x1bGdRstwD6pcpcccCEcpTjUI7g1EZVCd7YSn2Pem9Cs3ssdl9HY65qZ SCXKrlh3OoGQ/i3fQgXH/3JS5xVAhqJz8zJyNTsl+o2Wvo8YfXvC7npBYRaiLLzIc2xT hXlP0Hhxuke7ivdaCuHeGpH88z/w/8krKgzusvlGVtncvKT8CMfMHAk44n+4GtC1V1sN JlZg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXg8N8VYbWyZ/IKIjCPZ5DGfMNkz+0mrWNk0StkScrdKOY5zj/B vjDjFLEyeWXm3ZvWUlh5g8n8juJX0ii21QN6Lm3tjTsc X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwRuzjdveCxPqpbXPHqtcbiSmgMZZCHmOzjZq+y2UZo/sDhVefdiluEGAP4MEnHEbXYarMRbk8+pb4kU6sQJhk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b5ac:: with SMTP id f12mr24111595ljn.0.1579801413772; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> In-Reply-To: <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> From: Watson Ladd Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:43:21 -0800 Message-ID: To: TLS List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000156825059cd22e21" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:43:39 -0000 --000000000000156825059cd22e21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 4:41 AM Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:57:31PM +0100, Hubert Kario wrote: > > > > The deployed base of Postfix servers issues multi-use tickets (always, > > > there's no extension to tell me otherwise), and sends zero tickets > > > on resumption, so I need to not just throw away tickets that are > > > still valid. > > > > I wonder if the approach with a database with strict ACID-ity is the > > correct one for ticket storage. > > It isn't "strict acidity", but there never more than one ticket per > peer, stores replace the existing entry, loads read the latest entry > stored. > > > What I mean, is that, especially in postfix case, using slightly older > > ticket that it could will have minimal impact on the connection. > > Slightly older is unavoidable, because time passes between configuring > an SSL connection to use a particular session and actually using it. > > If tickets rotate too fast, busy Postfix SMTP clients will frequently > end up with stale tickets, and will fail resumption much of the time. > > The server accepts reuse, and defaults to assuming that the client is > willing to reuse. > > If the extension provides a tiny bit more signalling at no cost to > applications that have no use for reuse, then I'll be able to also > support clients that explicitly signal non-reuse (e.g. MUAs talking > to a service that is both MSA and SMTP relay). > > > Thus a database that is basically append only, with clients that look > > for newest ticket (and disregard races on this lookup) and a > > garbage-collection process that removes old tickets every few hours > > will work ok. > > There is indeed a GC process, but we're using off-the-shelf indexed > file dabases (Berkeley DB or LMDB), which are not append only. And > in any case, this is rather tangential. > > The real issue is that I'd like to offer clients that don't reuse a > fresh ticket, but allow clients that do reuse to continue to do that. > Sending a new ticket doesn't force clients to store it. > > Anyway, I wanted to avoid TL;DR, and just present an argument based > largely on: > > - No actual complexity to those that don't ever want reuse > - Pontential savings to those who for some reason do reuse. > > That really ought to be enough, given that ignoring the reuse > case and always issuign a ticket is *free*: > > /* Hande non-use, ignore reuse, and impose local limit */ > if (ticknum == 0) ticknum = 1; > else if (ticknum == 255) ticknum = 0; > else if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum = ticklimit; > What if we reverse the 0 and 255 case, and use the number 1 to mean 1? Now the code is a no-op. I still don't get the savings: tickets are free for the server and clients can always not store them. With 0-rtt single use tickets are a lot more compelling. > /* now proceed as in previously solved problem */ > > v.s. extension as-is: > > /* Impose local limit */ > if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum = ticklimit; > > That's a totally trivial change that yields status-quo, but allows other > implementations to do something more intelligent with "ticknum == 0". > > -- > Viktor. > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000156825059cd22e21 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, 4:41 AM Viktor Dukhovni <= ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 12:57:31PM +0100, Hubert Kario wrote:

> > The deployed base of Postfix servers issues multi-use tickets (al= ways,
> > there's no extension to tell me otherwise), and sends zero ti= ckets
> > on resumption, so I need to not just throw away tickets that are<= br> > > still valid.
>
> I wonder if the approach with a database with strict ACID-ity is the <= br> > correct one for ticket storage.

It isn't "strict acidity", but there never more than one tick= et per
peer, stores replace the existing entry, loads read the latest entry
stored.

> What I mean, is that, especially in postfix case, using slightly older=
> ticket that it could will have minimal impact on the connection.

Slightly older is unavoidable, because time passes between configuring
an SSL connection to use a particular session and actually using it.

If tickets rotate too fast, busy Postfix SMTP clients will frequently
end up with stale tickets, and will fail resumption much of the time.

The server accepts reuse, and defaults to assuming that the client is
willing to reuse.

If the extension provides a tiny bit more signalling at no cost to
applications that have no use for reuse, then I'll be able to also
support clients that explicitly signal non-reuse (e.g. MUAs talking
to a service that is both MSA and SMTP relay).

> Thus a database that is basically append only, with clients that look<= br> > for newest ticket (and disregard races on this lookup) and a
> garbage-collection process that removes old tickets every few hours > will work ok.

There is indeed a GC process, but we're using off-the-shelf indexed
file dabases (Berkeley DB or LMDB), which are not append only.=C2=A0 And in any case, this is rather tangential.

The real issue is that I'd like to offer clients that don't reuse a=
fresh ticket, but allow clients that do reuse to continue to do that.

Sendin= g a new ticket doesn't force clients to store it.

Anyway, I wanted to avoid TL;DR, and just present an argument based
largely on:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - No actual complexity to those that don't ever want reus= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Pontential savings to those who for some reason do reuse.
That really ought to be enough, given that ignoring the reuse
case and always issuign a ticket is *free*:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Hande non-use, ignore reuse, and impose local limit */
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (ticknum =3D=3D 0) ticknum =3D 1;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 else if (ticknum =3D=3D 255) ticknum =3D 0;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 else if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum =3D ticklimit;

What i= f we reverse the 0 and 255 case, and use the number 1 to mean 1? Now the co= de is a no-op.

I still d= on't get the savings: tickets are free for the server and clients can a= lways not store them. With 0-rtt single use tickets are a lot more compelli= ng.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* now proceed as in previously solved problem */

=C2=A0 v.s. extension as-is:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 /* Impose local limit */
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if (ticknum > ticklimit) ticknum =3D ticklimit;

That's a totally trivial change that yields status-quo, but allows othe= r
implementations to do something more intelligent with "ticknum =3D=3D = 0".

--
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Viktor.

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /tls
--000000000000156825059cd22e21-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 11:33:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A05120AAB for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y9GCXCfPRtGh for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:33:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from anteater.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (anteater.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B8B1209FA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0183501790; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:32:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-60-161.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.60.161]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 647FB501CA1; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:32:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:32:59 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Left-Skirt: 501a990b0550eeb8_1579807979655_3897468470 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1579807979654:3248628063 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1579807979654 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE8F7F709; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:32:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=yXA9bEP8Z+Kdeg xYFjOklHjpi6Q=; b=u0JjTZ+9tulIziZD1J6sEzYyG94uz9wpPqj6yp0mfQFWm9 To4uCLxUw5cVj/SCzw32ItX2ahao73wU0ZowTY8qHS3PP4Yo9OYeQ65b2gwfujfu CwtE9QKpMamB5cjE7ZiiTuFKNyZWnUjITiswsr4lPjviIVojA4WfpLnj0IdIg= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a44.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9763C7F20C; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:32:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:32:51 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a44 From: Nico Williams To: Watson Ladd Cc: TLS List Message-ID: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> References: <20200121055411.GJ73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvddvgdekudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:33:03 -0000 On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 09:43:21AM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > Sending a new ticket doesn't force clients to store it. Sure, but if the old ticket will not be accepted again then the client will incur a full handshake later. The client doesn't know if the old ticket will or will not be accepted again. Extending the protocol to have the server signal that bit will require new OpenSSL extensions, which is why that is not a sufficiently good response to the Postfix issue. Nico -- From nobody Thu Jan 23 11:56:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAF4120B76 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:56:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zT67Vcb77EPm for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4209D120B7C for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="c3nanQsPDIR7e8TXx1MgxKFsTFbypr88N" Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] ESNI tunnel version - nonce/padding X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:56:24 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --c3nanQsPDIR7e8TXx1MgxKFsTFbypr88N Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="XAfFsXIxAJOMh6IeQRwbolR1mLW3e6c3O"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "tls@ietf.org" Message-ID: <220b8b13-f1d0-8dcb-446f-84e8d4a71d68@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: ESNI tunnel version - nonce/padding --XAfFsXIxAJOMh6IeQRwbolR1mLW3e6c3O Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------45D09EF52C364433E215AFA6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------45D09EF52C364433E215AFA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I've started to code up a guess as to how the tunnel or encrypted client hello version of ESNI [1] might look like in the future draft-06. Note that my branch [2] doesn't actually work yet, and embeds a bunch of guesses as to what draft-06 might include, so mega-caveats apply:-) As you'd expect the encrypted CH code is a bit messy but so far (client-side mostly done, server-side done to the point of decrypting the inner CH) the tunnel approach seems fairly doable with OpenSSL. One protocol change I'd suggest from coding so far (compared with the draft PR [1]) is to combine the esni_nonce and ESNI-specific padding into one thing, being a nonce that's at least 16 octets long but that ought be padded to the length as determined by ESNIConfig. At least in OpenSSL, that'd be a good bit easier to handle, compared to having a fixed length nonce in one extension and then modifying whatever a caller has asked for in the padding extension (possibly via a callback). It should also result in fewer octets overall in the default case, which seems better. But it's the possibly unexpected change in behaviour vs. an application callback that's the real argument for this. I don't much care if the esni_nonce extension would have all random octets or 16 random and then zero valued octets for padding, but all-random seems easier and less error-prone. If that makes sense I can whack in a comment to github so it doesn't get forgotten. Cheers, S. [1] https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-esni/pull/196/files [2] https://github.com/sftcd/openssl/tree/encch --------------45D09EF52C364433E215AFA6 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8X4014XX7oVL for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE3EF120823 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 83D054B6EB; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:01:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:01:51 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:01:56 -0000 On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:32:51PM -0600, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 09:43:21AM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: > > Sending a new ticket doesn't force clients to store it. > > Sure, but if the old ticket will not be accepted again then the client > will incur a full handshake later. The client doesn't know if the old > ticket will or will not be accepted again. Extending the protocol to > have the server signal that bit will require new OpenSSL extensions, > which is why that is not a sufficiently good response to the Postfix > issue. Indeed, not storing the ticket breaks resumption. So I always store the ticket (actually what OpenSSL hands me is a serializable opaque SSL_SESSION). For example, when the server allows reuse, but has a shorter maximum ticket lifetime, its "as needed" new ticket needs to be stored, in order to replace a stale cached session and start using the fresh one. Regardless, I also believe that not applications need or want the marginal privacy offered by single-use tickets (none for clients with stable dedicated IP addresses) and it should be possible in such cases (at effectively zero cost as proposed) to negotiate reuse in a way that allows servers to handle both types of client. This would allow Postfix to vend single-use tickets to clients that request that (e.g. MUAs). Right now the code is statically optimized for the MTA-to-MTA use-case. So making reuse *negotiable* would in fact enhance privacy for MUAs on ephemeral IPs sending sufficiently frequent email (from behind a NAT or otherwise shared or changing address) to a sufficiently popular submission server that it is not trivial to link resumed TLS sessions to a given client. -- Viktor. From nobody Thu Jan 23 17:21:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728A4120019; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:21:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: kaduk@mit.edu, tls-chairs@ietf.org, caw@heapingbits.net, tls@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157982890640.22838.13674793669594448990.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:21:46 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] tls - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:21:47 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Christopher A. Wood, a Chair of the tls working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Transport Layer Security Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Christopher Wood Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 120 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: pearg git mls emu Technology Overlap: cfrg dprive dnsop lake Key Participant Conflict: quic httpbis taps secdispatch saag wpack People who must be present: Eric Rescorla Rich Salz Sean Turner Joseph A. Salowey Yoav Nir Benjamin Kaduk Christopher A. Wood Nick Sullivan Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Jan 24 21:07:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C238112004E for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=heapingbits.net header.b=cCzkIk8j; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=HQ0s/oRA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2f4AJ5hPu1Ea for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2763D1200F3 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5633F21B8C for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 00:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap4 ([10.202.2.54]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 25 Jan 2020 00:07:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heapingbits.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=z/qwOQT+UFSQgaMGoLGVwIz90TroVsBPtIwcGmEOkkQ=; b=cCzkIk8j 2yjCDGsVQxJRYwYMOjzIQUYbM33wTsDBqWvvvaIIlEMKg5dCZVHJQG1Gza6BPo2G pAY0HvpomyhgAhFbspF4BH1WI48nHXef5tNc4FzKVWYiH3Nv/lKa71WL4KI+zwaO T5ZJcl+QBKiOxHhqs8/TQCO0zdqzcp0zgEWWv5fkpDPPUuIKCMbNjDgQ45V3BAWQ bHcUIXzaWGA7wXVh1gzracOMcF60jzltUCE6+PMmsdDfTXH0pjq3nEUjlGML6Vvq fH3ZKIkXCmoclsd5EAsHrAMCJZruD1GKf7q9QdQQ2KpO8Tf/8dxXXpht59jDBu0W ++2LbMZqvgaPNA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=z/qwOQT+UFSQgaMGoLGVwIz90TroV sBPtIwcGmEOkkQ=; b=HQ0s/oRAeUfLPwuhEDRkUVs0mAhacLbDZyVW+DCTud2W1 CC1BOVxvuWb3RjfxJkV/BccsLMO4OpAjrstY0IkkhEwZ87OUYu+R5Bi7YEVXXmP1 8tpR9tDukoUtTgqPWgrjVOwboVfpIJuhmcTmyUtU6WyhMnWdOBDZFG9zhj1anZWt aEFGgbVFuEelR6He9zriALVBJviv0Ig9J84ZVAyIwnUK4E0REfcEo8fDRjAn0VIh nWwQwX1RYSH7ybbD40K19SkIILarGk8OeORJoeKw/Jc37rxpSDQZ2lZkKHFK00vU 3onupJ0lsKDv++5OtPPJ+Quvl2a6MCX4sdqTkJwsA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvdeigdejkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtredtre ertdenucfhrhhomhepfdevhhhrihhsthhophhhvghrucghohhougdfuceotggrfieshhgv rghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdpghhith hhuhgsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhf rhhomheptggrfieshhgvrghpihhnghgsihhtshdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id CCA273C00A1; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 00:07:32 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-777-gdb93371-fmstable-20200123v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:07:12 -0800 From: "Christopher Wood" To: "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:07:36 -0000 We'd like to move draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags [1] along. To that end, we ask that interested parties please review the document and send feedback to the list. You may also send feedback to the document repository [2]. Assuming no substantial or controversial issues arise, we'll start WGLC shortly thereafter, aiming to finish before IETF 107. Thanks, Chris, on behalf of the chairs [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ [2] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags From nobody Sat Jan 25 23:32:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CD012008F for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=r26woQR1; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=a3SvIOyI Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AlFhnVNmPefP for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FF4212008D for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182A54CE for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject:message-id:date; s= fm1; bh=qKnoYCNFsQyz32UAOyVdhFCJkuYm6nl0VU7/w19ILNE=; b=r26woQR1 tQdyHkaP/tk5tYeuJhLYRkOcTc6LEffMV4dRUY7ZdbtZitHPMEkaNbp51V2z61PJ lA9q2AzPvOextKmnwGntyYevnxwhw+PJRNvEXGKGnHgZnLVhlwxYthowGIPxzRJo XnE7HAZ8f7Z/bt9vHaRJ4026zsqGPheSdVik4whvg0S8m2VJ45VtvWVqFnzxliR8 FIeTs6vyHW51kkTIYQSm9PMVMSNqsc7Ch7ffqokrXpn75nLM9yyZB6hJXmPDcosZ y8RfbzMbiXU8PV2VVMClzTlB52iuikK5lqSs1bqJiMID+J85clX9ydVTFE7FaxUl 1vFxvSjQEctOwQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=qKnoYCNFsQyz32UAOyVdhFCJkuYm6 nl0VU7/w19ILNE=; b=a3SvIOyI3lf00KiVM0Jmj8GNFdPhlTXAxab4hzk6SrE+s 4YsMKJJotYsHgfMjIAB0T4rXwC+H3TwVZQx0+RbcHldp4DkWmDj+zhHbKU0XQ9Yp 6chMzI2+aHlBVPt84KdBev/oBOxXITfwXsRXwQxgWVISKhmmEF1roqkF4TPUCQ/U F/4WNmS+z65vfYc4ni6I0YMVtOvEKPW5QG3FQ4KwfJNk06j6Ywu3EO0DYUNtdwjW whMEsU4IGWCQKRLxVwmPshMGm4VDUWL5nuEiZ/HKAkPT9/aUlU2XOrfxoGDHvIhv RcdAJFzUSgsiDx0SZd9860q/unP+tCCb6aRHzcaOg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvdelgdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggghffvufesrgdttdertddtjeenuc fhrhhomheptfgvphhoshhithhorhihucettghtihhvihhthicuufhumhhmrghrhicuueho thcuoeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepgh hithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppeehvddrudekgedrudeljedrgeenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhi esmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.1.0.4] (unknown [52.184.197.4]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7FCB3328005D for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:35 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============9126343814256732369==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: tls@ietf.org Message-Id: <20200126073235.7FCB3328005D@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:35 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts) X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 07:32:38 -0000 --===============9126343814256732369== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Issues ------ * tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 2 issues created: - Allow server to echo the number of tickets that it expects to send (by = chris-wood) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest/issues/14=20 - ticket_request in HRR (by ekr) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest/issues/13=20 * tlswg/tls-flags (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 issues created: - 63 or 247? (by martinthomson) https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags/issues/1=20 Pull requests ------------- * tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate (+1/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC0) 1 pull requests submitted: - Fix comments from review (by ghedo) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/pull/4=20 3 pull requests merged: - clarify handling of SKE with MD5 or SHA1 https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/pull/3=20 - Fix comments from review https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/pull/4=20 - unify spelling of SHA-1 https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate/pull/2=20 * tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC2) 1 pull requests submitted: - Prohibit SH and HRR extensions, allow EE server hints (by chris-wood) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest/pull/15=20 1 pull requests received 2 new comments: - #12 adding security consideration on reflection attack (2 by chris-wood= , mglt) https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest/pull/12=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-semistatic-dh * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-esni * https://github.com/tlswg/certificate-compression * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-external-psk-importer * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls13-spec * https://github.com/tlswg/dtls-conn-id * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts * https://github.com/tlswg/oldversions-deprecate * https://github.com/tlswg/sniencryption * https://github.com/tlswg/tls-exported-authenticator * https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-grease --===============9126343814256732369== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (TLS Working Group Drafts)

Sunday January 26, 2020

Issues

tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

2 issues created:

tlswg/tls-flags (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 issues created:

Pull requests

tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-md5-sha1-deprecate (+1/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC0)

1 pull requests submitted:

3 pull requests merged:

tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequest (+1/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC2)

1 pull requests submitted:

1 pull requests received 2 new comments:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============9126343814256732369==-- From nobody Sun Jan 26 20:44:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1652312008A for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OvEh62LjGYSz for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4844F12006F for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id q15so1992247qki.2 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=e8EBY6sEavEshI5DH7fCZQdzqAUi64Br7mcCy2jSgwk=; b=iFZjNhSe7N4+RqIyqxYp4IFAJ6EKhypincThufLFQz/PBr18z9wVXphN4CxMENRqj8 tyLQxLVBYr4vI4515gs+OOE/fM1NIYI9H90OnLxTlBVZmuI8mY/PSWvEQGQUWubN1mrV 0csaPdZlWB1oVCvMrae7w48ZrheHJkKkEEAD4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=e8EBY6sEavEshI5DH7fCZQdzqAUi64Br7mcCy2jSgwk=; b=g745QtzJ7N0e6Nbo8qJoLrRCo7lrPHgz1f1TNRorl1ATiyMAE/9vADFeXog6SiijtJ 1TVu0kXqB1e4Yb11HPaRvYQZzUsPQurcNUuZL9qqjb+JqB3Hhl9wFFPd5MNV7WeYrpWo +wjsffsfjbTPIkXkGctPNpV+E9R9jCrX9EEb/0NGYjMemiiRnxY+CgIcPYiDV0qbIZnA p1tBZxdDRDysDnrLfk2AIcYIfVGeXVRkZwEC6zbfT/vkAhRJ6n1iTQW9mIgyHl0DbxZL ZEJC6IqUJOkJLig3LybRRlHWfs2gybKp+BaaFs3K7lWpmykS09aSNo1quBwR8x5GVcj6 hqiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWP+ED8LjKVWoj5UhyfN2Wv2EFtuHX0lB6PV+V5px9el/t4+Hnb PH/moxOE7VUKSp77Dxm63xZFmyinROJmOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwxJDQW4n1HhBtJSuKMZMHY9x/7JrLQ0uU4cnn0bBaVwsanxNlFcLdVvAr0iSN4xyX1e/k1uQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:3cf:: with SMTP id r15mr15163895qkm.12.1580100256258; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s67sm8749587qke.1.2020.01.26.20.44.15 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Jan 2020 20:44:15 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 23:44:15 -0500 References: <19B416A1-2605-4EA1-9E89-744C17B35F2E@sn3rd.com> To: TLS List In-Reply-To: <19B416A1-2605-4EA1-9E89-744C17B35F2E@sn3rd.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] code point assignments for draft-ietf-tls-subcerts X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 04:44:19 -0000 FYI - Ben has, rightly, pointed out that we cannot request that TLS DEs = set the Recommended column to =E2=80=9CY=E2=80=9D until the draft is = published as a standards track RFC. So, when the request is sent to the = DEs the value will be =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D, but we will request that IANA = change it during AUTH48. I do not believe this will impact the = extension=E2=80=99s deployment, but I wanted to make sure the WG (and = DEs) are aware that when we first request the assignment that the = request of the TLS DE=E2=80=99s will not exactly match the text in the = IANA considerations section. Apologies for any confusion, spt > On Jan 22, 2020, at 12:17, Sean Turner wrote: >=20 > Hi! >=20 > The chairs want to determine whether we should ask for the assignments = requested in draft-ietf-tls-subcerts [0][1]. We believe the draft is = stable enough and that there is interest from multiple implementers. = Please let the WG know by 2359 UTC 05 February 2020 whether you disagree = with these code point allocations and why. >=20 > What follows are the two request of IANA; one for the TLS DEs and one = for the PKIX DE: >=20 > 1. TLS ExtensionType Registry Request >=20 > This document registers the "delegated_credentials" extension in the > "TLS ExtensionType Values" registry. The "delegated_credentials" > extension has been assigned a code point of TBD. The IANA registry > lists this extension as "Recommended" (i.e., "Y") and indicates that > it may appear in the ClientHello (CH), CertificateRequest (CR), or > Certificate (CT) messages in TLS 1.3 [RFC8446]. >=20 > 2. SMI Security for PKIX Registry Request >=20 > This document also defines an ASN.1 module for the DelegationUsage > certificate extension in Appendix A. IANA is requested to register > an Object Identifier (OID) for the ASN.1 in "SMI Security for PKIX > Module Identifier" arc. An OID for the DelegationUsage certificate > extension is not needed as it is already assigned to the extension > from Cloudflare's IANA Private Enterprise Number (PEN) arc. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Joe, Chris, and Sean >=20 > [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-subcerts/ > [1] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-subcerts From nobody Wed Jan 29 12:34:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3699A120048; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:34:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-oZ1mJ-UtW3; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F809120045; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:34:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 90690F406C4; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:33:57 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, tls@ietf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20200129203357.90690F406C4@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:33:57 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8701_on_Applying_Generate_Random_Extensions_?= =?utf-8?q?And_Sustain_Extensibility_=28GREASE=29_to_TLS_Extensibility?= X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:34:08 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8701 Title: Applying Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility (GREASE) to TLS Extensibility Author: D. Benjamin Status: Informational Stream: IETF Date: January 2019 Mailbox: davidben@google.com Pages: 12 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-tls-grease-04.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8701 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8701 This document describes GREASE (Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility), a mechanism to prevent extensibility failures in the TLS ecosystem. It reserves a set of TLS protocol values that may be advertised to ensure peers correctly handle unknown values. This document is a product of the Transport Layer Security Working Group of the IETF. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC From nobody Wed Jan 29 12:39:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70A1120047; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:39:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6DjNrCTUux0; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C8C9120024; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 7F5F0F406F4; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:39:23 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, tls@ietf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20200129203923.7F5F0F406F4@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:39:23 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] =?utf-8?q?Correction=3A_RFC_8701_on_Applying_Generate_Rand?= =?utf-8?q?om_Extensions_And_Sustain_Extensibility_=28GREASE=29_to_TLS_Ext?= =?utf-8?q?ensibility?= X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:39:35 -0000 Note: We are resending this approval announcement to correct the date listed in the announcement. A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8701 Title: Applying Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility (GREASE) to TLS Extensibility Author: D. Benjamin Status: Informational Stream: IETF Date: January 2020 Mailbox: davidben@google.com Pages: 12 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-tls-grease-04.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8701 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8701 This document describes GREASE (Generate Random Extensions And Sustain Extensibility), a mechanism to prevent extensibility failures in the TLS ecosystem. It reserves a set of TLS protocol values that may be advertised to ensure peers correctly handle unknown values. This document is a product of the Transport Layer Security Working Group of the IETF. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC From nobody Thu Jan 30 09:58:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828E41200F6 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:58:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7tqYlpn5mGPt for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC149120090 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:58:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id m10so6967951wmc.0 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:58:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=u0X/GKSLQlAKn/pyb3EFrNbx41mXn+kV2Z7Dm+rDZ2Q=; b=hudizTn2sSIFsNtfuWTGklcdC3pH0Yb1nW5gx3MZlClX8tOvTwyCnLl2whgDRtYsK+ eSfw9hB9du2ScYTWwZe8678eIZLFhbxzJlO+LPftMQPaBilSynQNhnJizIGOtvz+1rRv dTal8QgbBZfqjqhgh4PnHy50EIAVrG2ZzVGmIWVxd99/b7FfQ1aGV0rNB0TXOJsGYOoJ 3429PMPrsLVpA4+vuLMTR8i4wIPpCXWJahQ7ycKKFyRHAeVFdhuLDiOCIwaRReci44R5 DmYBTAeTpXCC/NV4oHehvSfzQJutLb2iC32czBVsFIrL2Bv8GDnHn3i9JgbGtyE9b6dx PB8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=u0X/GKSLQlAKn/pyb3EFrNbx41mXn+kV2Z7Dm+rDZ2Q=; b=eFU8Iprw8Oa40YuL55YCX7TWraqyxsHt+VEXsdYASd3EwCzCqAfLQIIzNF7ULS+Nph R6OLJ0R8bDIawiXMBp01JfCdfZBaVbc6ocr/QUJNmHKrGda/poGCaj+2J0Tot4s9buN1 INO6skz6izDz5IzEj09tBwNdzYQPdq0N2xMeJhWSyDeZEu3kSw4j0IflVmJ7757wDUeU l1iWa4ZVRF6sUmsCgWD5/Wnx4+2ySOIEJ3ON6Q61NYZ4qpDhTRrhUJJmjkcPQ9uLc6QD 64L6uluqtQ+6WV4q6BvJIWS23VQgU7feugmphNFclHR1a8TOt3kry6Em4W4YhIQfuE+w 8aSA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUf8uYPRovI4NNonLIU5t4KZlXt81u5HkBqHd7ZHApRLxxrdF3+ W9JnPvsNxc0iSzYl0K9xlicv6PNLt2I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzb6x4ShjMzlpNnhUZMKZUUvYl++KwXQ3H7PZKBUyK+isj8fU3guLViNIy/MrqED+MKx8h0Qw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1c4:: with SMTP id 187mr7017617wmb.77.1580407080691; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] ([46.120.57.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p7sm6995050wmp.31.2020.01.30.09.57.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:57:59 -0800 (PST) From: Yoav Nir Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 19:57:58 +0200 References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> To: "TLS@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> Message-Id: <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 17:58:06 -0000 Hi folks. In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there was an issue with a = brief discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. Yoav [1] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags/issues/1 [2] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags/pull/2 > On 25 Jan 2020, at 7:07, Christopher Wood wrote: >=20 > We'd like to move draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags [1] along. To that end, we = ask that interested parties please review the document and send feedback = to the list. You may also send feedback to the document repository [2].=20= >=20 > Assuming no substantial or controversial issues arise, we'll start = WGLC shortly thereafter, aiming to finish before IETF 107. >=20 > Thanks, > Chris, on behalf of the chairs >=20 > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ > [2] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Thu Jan 30 12:08:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293D4120170 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 12:08:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:08:39 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1580414920; bh=evYB1fbZwbyMQCLqlbZEXJZPpX2zufyqNUAJcUur11I=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=MgcEkcKFM6pB80N+sQzEPvsGyFewjoRQkMhY3W+Z87+5yKltXyZ2EXcWUeYf6wX3t CASvrjxDQcQHocTgnXnROUXkdXLszkynjmVx25LkfPo2tPQ0YvfGk3FMAL9uxJPbnc NE08a87z2sOuuXtq3oFT0TyeCINVimitTGpK8pBA= To: Yoav Nir , "TLS@ietf.org" References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:08:39 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uUuedXPM31a4UHzfBOHS2DUMy9hp1SLj4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:08:48 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --uUuedXPM31a4UHzfBOHS2DUMy9hp1SLj4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="JkxjbqwaRhizELxv5stA37fKkh0OerZtx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Yoav Nir , "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> --JkxjbqwaRhizELxv5stA37fKkh0OerZtx Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8DCA7F5ED2F72E552240B334" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8DCA7F5ED2F72E552240B334 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir wrote: > Hi folks. >=20 > In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there was an issue with a = brief > discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). >=20 > If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible foot-gun - with a specification required rule that could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry! Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 extension if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to a much smaller number of flags - 63 should be plenty I'd say. That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have a hard time seeing implementers even trying to code for 2040 flags and specification required is the same rule as for extensions. Cheers, S. >=20 > Yoav >=20 > [1] https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags/issues/1 [2] > https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags/pull/2 >=20 >> On 25 Jan 2020, at 7:07, Christopher Wood >> wrote: >>=20 >> We'd like to move draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags [1] along. To that end, >> we ask that interested parties please review the document and send >> feedback to the list. You may also send feedback to the document >> repository [2]. >>=20 >> Assuming no substantial or controversial issues arise, we'll start >> WGLC shortly thereafter, aiming to finish before IETF 107. >>=20 >> Thanks, Chris, on behalf of the chairs >>=20 >> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags/ [2] >> https://github.com/tlswg/tls-flags >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list=20 >> TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 > _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list=20 > TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >=20 --------------8DCA7F5ED2F72E552240B334 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem 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--uUuedXPM31a4UHzfBOHS2DUMy9hp1SLj4-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 04:27:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5E6120804 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 04:27:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsrRyr1pVLkB for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 04:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from us-smtp-delivery-1.mimecast.com 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format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:27:05 -0000 On Thursday, 30 January 2020 21:08:39 CET, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir wrote: >> Hi folks. >>=20 >> In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there was an issue with a b= rief >> discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). >>=20 >> If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. > > Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible > foot-gun - with a specification required rule that > could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry! > > Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 extension > if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to a > much smaller number of flags - 63 should be plenty > I'd say. > > That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have > a hard time seeing implementers even trying to code > for 2040 flags and specification required is the > same rule as for extensions. well, if the specification says that it can include 2040 flags, an=20 implementation must be able to process such an extension if the idea of this extension is to reduce the size of ClientHello (the=20 utility of which I find questionable), then I don't see a situation where we will= =20 really need to send old and new extensions at the same time as likely =E2=80=93 I = expect=20 that if we do allow 2040 flags, the extension in 10 or 20 years will commonly=20 include just few set bits and plenty of zeros =E2=80=93 wasting bandwidth again --=20 Regards, Hubert Kario Senior Quality Engineer, QE BaseOS Security team Web: www.cz.redhat.com Red Hat Czech s.r.o., Purky=C5=88ova 115, 612 00 Brno, Czech Republic From nobody Fri Jan 31 06:00:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5931F1201C6 for ; 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Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] ([46.120.57.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j12sm12823989wrw.54.2020.01.31.06.00.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:00:41 -0800 (PST) From: Yoav Nir Message-Id: <2C73A60D-2870-4AD3-A506-CB1FCC6B60FD@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB41E45D-E1D9-41A9-B5D4-EA1D9EDF9B94" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:00:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "TLS@ietf.org" To: Stephen Farrell References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:00:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DB41E45D-E1D9-41A9-B5D4-EA1D9EDF9B94 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 30 Jan 2020, at 22:08, Stephen Farrell = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir wrote: >> Hi folks. >>=20 >> In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there was an issue with = a brief >> discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). >>=20 >> If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. >=20 > Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible > foot-gun - with a specification required rule that > could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry! >=20 > Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 extension > if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to a > much smaller number of flags - 63 should be plenty > I'd say. >=20 > That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have > a hard time seeing implementers even trying to code > for 2040 flags and specification required is the > same rule as for extensions. >=20 > Cheers, > S. The format allows 2040 bits. I think we should never define that many = bits. I think we should never define even 60 bits. But I also think it = should be left up to the TLS chairs and the IANA experts to serve as = gatekeepers rather than tying their hands in the specification. --Apple-Mail=_DB41E45D-E1D9-41A9-B5D4-EA1D9EDF9B94 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 30 Jan 2020, at 22:08, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:



On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir = wrote:
Hi = folks.

In case you=E2=80=99re not following = GitHub, there was an issue with a brief
discussion ([1]) = and a resulting pull request ([2]).

If = there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR.

Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible
foot-gun - with a specification = required rule that
could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry!

Given it's possible to define a = tls_flags2 extension
if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to = a
much smaller = number of flags - 63 should be plenty
I'd say.

That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have
a hard time seeing implementers = even trying to code
for 2040 flags and specification required is the
same rule as for = extensions.

Cheers,
S.

The = format allows 2040 bits. I think we should never define that many bits. = I think we should never define even 60 bits. But I also think it should = be left up to the TLS chairs and the IANA experts to serve as = gatekeepers rather than tying their hands in the specification.


= --Apple-Mail=_DB41E45D-E1D9-41A9-B5D4-EA1D9EDF9B94-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 06:11:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC44D1200DF for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pl6Y2PYaIiQd for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8B0212008D for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id c84so8808899wme.4 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=c+8ocJAYW9sxq8a1H+kcBscA6TtrXMcsMntRK8tXOvk=; b=R7WlEA6m6eOFPNSX1WzJVG3Y6bTVqxaL6gKDnZE1f+BmP6plaJqeNKRYXz4uTCbOP6 JCYmrix+KT65yKK6H/fYXlpmb/Z5qUp9f4EJPZj81baDy5Qu7l7Rxs0NjukfmkDjnMWv 3hKQ3cP2ozbCpg/i4Yg+xfazQUV02p28X4hcCdxPgBa4lW8vP/yXkBei1Lycp3SDCB28 iQGA5KLpjowVptfm97/tgQOilMenve6L1xnJzU0+kyg0ciEGHAuMhaxTmft3/yBYrI3v au4+PsajX+qXtKO44rSVQctBTGhqnvspAMwzRLaR2/mx5WtwrkUEyrLOy2cv93+0zDUD JgmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=c+8ocJAYW9sxq8a1H+kcBscA6TtrXMcsMntRK8tXOvk=; b=g+gF6MldZqpEPKcc5yJqtBRs5kQr0IaCbh2Ll3IElr4ZtBC+jLnE2vdoajP640WdKF oTHkwAyKjcAxZNpUSaalwn2yVHqsxQKXXLf6dhwFnmihf4j57D7HS705FDpVsPYHl0tW WKvuxTaFTcnUBKukvkJjgPZIraQ1yo3ioOGxHQedevx+2GRYNOXrssyeOVBbv1rHFnXh 0iJfJaRMcsYKkCOix2RmzcDLQ4MsY+j1YltI6zZ00zVUsiiOq/0+ElWZy48JVQ4OWUUk VDgdChSdS/Q2iU1r0mfNECUjuxfILf2A/mInbiTet7Aowi6ucvjcHGOtGtUImdQuRFx7 08YA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrKoeINQf0Hi0unZs9t+pdcSNxO/Rp/1qa3deeQlBNvI2qY4Ou jpArb7RJXbMr8z22G5PMsx4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZIH/1rkW/Yy8IPNqZyE/0iuzYOIWAJG1Immjto2iwf/E3MyEBRz263DqrZhfPxOX6OWxo2w== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cc81:: with SMTP id p1mr11960759wma.62.1580479895444; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.12] ([46.120.57.147]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k13sm11659098wrx.59.2020.01.31.06.11.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:11:34 -0800 (PST) From: Yoav Nir Message-Id: <6EB7F220-F702-4B39-B994-ACBF4E9528E8@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_964227B9-62C9-4F4E-BD45-D66E9F299C53" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:11:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: <18990e66-1dca-4970-a4a0-a3be7bbc875d@redhat.com> Cc: tls@ietf.org To: Hubert Kario References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> <18990e66-1dca-4970-a4a0-a3be7bbc875d@redhat.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:11:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_964227B9-62C9-4F4E-BD45-D66E9F299C53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 31 Jan 2020, at 14:26, Hubert Kario wrote: >=20 > On Thursday, 30 January 2020 21:08:39 CET, Stephen Farrell wrote: >>=20 >> On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir wrote: >>> Hi folks. >>> In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there was an issue with = a brief >>> discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). >>> If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. >>=20 >> Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible >> foot-gun - with a specification required rule that >> could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry! >>=20 >> Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 extension >> if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to a >> much smaller number of flags - 63 should be plenty >> I'd say. >>=20 >> That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have >> a hard time seeing implementers even trying to code >> for 2040 flags and specification required is the >> same rule as for extensions. >=20 > well, if the specification says that it can include 2040 flags, an = implementation > must be able to process such an extension >=20 > if the idea of this extension is to reduce the size of ClientHello = (the utility > of which I find questionable), then I don't see a situation where we = will really > need to send old and new extensions at the same time as likely =E2=80=93= I expect that > if we do allow 2040 flags, the extension in 10 or 20 years will = commonly include > just few set bits and plenty of zeros =E2=80=93 wasting bandwidth = again An implementation need only support up to the last bit that is = meaningful to it. If the last feature it supports is number 30, = there=E2=80=99s no need to read any of the octets beyond the fourth I think that we can help the situation by partitioning the space as = follows: - First octet is for standards-track documents coming out of TLS where = the draft specifically requests such assignment. Like if we ever need a = renegotiation_info again. - Octets 2-4 are for other standards-track documents. - Octets 5-7 are for experimental drafts. They don=E2=80=99t get = re-assigned if they later become standards track - Octets 8 are reserved-private - Octets beyond that are in case we need more. With some luck and some care, most ClientHellos will need no more than = the first 4 bytes. Yoav --Apple-Mail=_964227B9-62C9-4F4E-BD45-D66E9F299C53 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 31 Jan 2020, at 14:26, Hubert Kario <hkario@redhat.com> = wrote:

On Thursday, 30 January 2020 = 21:08:39 CET, Stephen Farrell wrote:

On 30/01/2020 17:57, = Yoav Nir wrote:
Hi = folks.
In case you=E2=80=99re not following GitHub, there = was an issue with a brief
discussion ([1]) and a resulting = pull request ([2]).
If there are no objections by late = next week, I will merge the PR.

Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible
foot-gun - with a specification required rule that
could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry!

Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 = extension
if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain = this to a
much smaller number of flags - 63 should be = plenty
I'd say.

That said, = it's not that huge a deal since I have
a hard time seeing = implementers even trying to code
for 2040 flags and = specification required is the
same rule as for = extensions.

well, if the specification says that it can include 2040 = flags, an implementation
must be able to process such an extension

if the idea of this extension is = to reduce the size of ClientHello (the utility
of which I find questionable), = then I don't see a situation where we will really
need to send old and new = extensions at the same time as likely =E2=80=93 I expect that
if we do allow 2040 flags, the = extension in 10 or 20 years will commonly include
just few set bits and plenty of = zeros =E2=80=93 wasting bandwidth again

An implementation need only support up to the = last bit that is meaningful to it.  If the last feature it supports = is number 30, there=E2=80=99s no need to read any of the octets beyond = the fourth

I think = that we can help the situation by partitioning the space as = follows:
 - First octet is for standards-track = documents coming out of TLS where the draft specifically requests such = assignment.  Like if we ever need a renegotiation_info = again.
 - Octets 2-4 are for other = standards-track documents.
 - Octets 5-7 are = for experimental drafts. They don=E2=80=99t get re-assigned if they = later become standards track
 - Octets 8 are = reserved-private
 - Octets beyond that are in = case we need more.

With some luck and some care, most ClientHellos will need no = more than the first 4 bytes.

Yoav

= --Apple-Mail=_964227B9-62C9-4F4E-BD45-D66E9F299C53-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 07:37:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89FC120105 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UnRbnJcmRGGm for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from welho-filter1.welho.com (welho-filter1.welho.com [83.102.41.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C1551200FE for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by welho-filter1.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C58812178 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:36:55 +0200 (EET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at pp.htv.fi Received: from welho-smtp2.welho.com ([IPv6:::ffff:83.102.41.85]) by localhost (welho-filter1.welho.com [::ffff:83.102.41.23]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0RWByyCKMPs for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:36:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from LK-Perkele-VII (87-100-246-37.bb.dnainternet.fi [87.100.246.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by welho-smtp2.welho.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB8FF287 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:36:52 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:36:52 +0200 From: Ilari Liusvaara To: "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200131153652.GA1156990@LK-Perkele-VII> References: <6d2a87a9-6d9a-4a39-913b-e9f620275cec@www.fastmail.com> <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> <2C73A60D-2870-4AD3-A506-CB1FCC6B60FD@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2C73A60D-2870-4AD3-A506-CB1FCC6B60FD@gmail.com> Sender: ilariliusvaara@welho.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:37:01 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:00:39PM +0200, Yoav Nir wrote: > > > > On 30 Jan 2020, at 22:08, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > > > > > > On 30/01/2020 17:57, Yoav Nir wrote: > >> Hi folks. > >> > >> In case you’re not following GitHub, there was an issue with a brief > >> discussion ([1]) and a resulting pull request ([2]). > >> > >> If there are no objections by late next week, I will merge the PR. > > > > Allowing 2040 flags seems a bit mad and a possible > > foot-gun - with a specification required rule that > > could end up worse than the ciphersuites registry! Well, TLS allows tens of thoursands of extensions, and the extension registry does not look even nearly as bad as ciphersuite registry. This has multiple possible reasons: - Much harder to specify extensions. - Less "vanity" stuff with extensions. - No bad combinatorics (ciphersuites were horrible combinatorics-wise before being reworked in TLS 1.3). > > Given it's possible to define a tls_flags2 extension > > if this one runs out, I'd argue to constrain this to a > > much smaller number of flags - 63 should be plenty > > I'd say. One would not want any high-numbered flags, so splitting to multiple extensions if there would be many flags would likely be benefical size-wise. One could support 64 flags with size bound of 12 bytes (8 bytes plus 4 byte extension overhead). Note that 64 is more than number of all TLS extensions ever registered (let alone number of flaglike TLS extensions). > > That said, it's not that huge a deal since I have > > a hard time seeing implementers even trying to code > > for 2040 flags and specification required is the > > same rule as for extensions. Note that it would not be much harder to make an extension than a flag. It would pretty much just specifying the extension as blank. One needs to specify the semantics anyway. > The format allows 2040 bits. I think we should never define that many > bits. I think we should never define even 60 bits. But I also think > it should be left up to the TLS chairs and the IANA experts to serve > as gatekeepers rather than tying their hands in the specification. Note that the length field is completely redundant and could be removed, saving 1 byte. And I think that even defining 16 flags (to exceed 6 bytes) will take a while (that is more than all flag-type extensions that exist to date). And probably there should not be any reserved entries, just all "specification required". Or maybe some low number entries (0-7?) for "standards action" (mostly to be used for any possible security fix extensions)? -Ilari From nobody Fri Jan 31 07:48:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B5A120103 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:48:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1536-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=iecc.com header.b=aFsEPGmc; dkim=fail (1536-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=taugh.com header.b=AfNjPFgv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBHGkpn94EwD for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF64F1200FD for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 07:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 94999 invoked by uid 100); 31 Jan 2020 15:48:20 -0000 Date: 31 Jan 2020 15:48:20 -0000 Message-ID: From: "John Levine" To: tls@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=1730f.5e344c44.k2001; i=news@user.iecc.com; bh=II94K6qBtEjBk92qfWf6BqOWDzdk/mXLZCCdhRSI7JE=; b=aFsEPGmcOtxfHyicwikv7THYsiVBdXUNFDgFum5E/WUmHTOeBcoSgbvKMPgNFTUqYsYJ/ePh5AVG4Ist7tWwdmOlYRdeE8qraD8qCdjwmArKHVSfznPkQYuy1GQn5LnCpWDlwPeZNTKkR5UQw/xHJE933/bEtxQKxvNl9SumWuE+6RoySgvg1xuAUciCyk4VHrwL5aERc9/Owu/ZWf2CEkQHAc4IkflDV6X29UMAmqzGL0PzpNzFYqJx9dz2hwZU DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=1730f.5e344c44.k2001; olt=news@user.iecc.com; bh=II94K6qBtEjBk92qfWf6BqOWDzdk/mXLZCCdhRSI7JE=; b=AfNjPFgvmnIoWYUo05jGEJRI5mSXrMJZuO/t+SioD/+m6jWahomr3ZNmWKmhHit90PrGGF3r38fjZhuRDegWpmdju77020sU3tQAa0Fw+BHB+HJNsqozgOoDNmRabxx1m+sPJvfe0WswAUG0+wR8nxFS3FOpTtj+lsnYD5gTgbz9AbVueDv1sXJAemN+Lik0mrxolfHB9vQ+FQv4uYE19sV5fV9xk531H7gh1w2h7ByICeHAfCXPEckAKXxc3Qxg Organization: Taughannock Networks References: <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> <18990e66-1dca-4970-a4a0-a3be7bbc875d@redhat.com> In-Reply-To: <6F2B5A29-E7EF-4F83-A5F7-A40484D319FB@gmail.com> <18990e66-1dca-4970-a4a0-a3be7bbc875d@redhat.com> Cleverness: some X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010) Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] Feedback on draft-ietf-tls-tlsflags X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:36:35 -0000 Thanks to everyone who provided feedback on the draft charter! It=E2=80=99= s all been incorporated in the version on GitHub [1]. We=E2=80=99ll work= with Ben in moving this to the next step.=20 Thanks, Chris, on behalf of the chairs [1] https://github.com/tlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/charter/charter.md= On Mon, Jan 20, 2020, at 1:55 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > LGTM >=20 > On Thu, Jan 16, 2020 at 7:32 PM Christopher Wood = wrote: > > Hi folks, > >=20 > > As discussed in Singapore, it's time to re-charter the working grou= p to reflect ongoing (e.g., Exported Authenticators and Encrypted SNI/CH= ) and future work (e.g., cTLS). For reference, the current charter is av= ailable here:=20 > >=20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tls/ > >=20 > > A draft of the new charter is below, and also available on GitHub [= 1]. Please have a look and and send comments, either here on the mailing= list or in the GitHub repo, by 2359 UTC on 30 January 2020. Any and all= feedback is welcome! We would like to complete this in advance of IETF = 107 so we can move forward with items such as cTLS.=20 > >=20 > > ~~~ > > The TLS (Transport Layer Security) working group was established in= 1996 to standardize a 'transport layer' security protocol. The basis fo= r the work was SSL (Secure Socket Layer) v3.0 [RFC6101]. The TLS working= group has completed a series of specifications that describe the TLS pr= otocol v1.0 [RFC2246], v1.1 [RFC4346], v1.2 [RFC5346], and v1.3 [RFC8446= ], and DTLS (Datagram TLS) v1.0 [RFC4347], v1.2 [RFC6347], and v1.3 [dra= ft-ietf-tls-dtls13], as well as extensions to the protocols and ciphersu= ites. > >=20 > > The working group aims to achieve three goals. First, improve the a= pplicability and suitability of the TLS family of protocols for use in e= merging protocols and use cases. This includes extensions or changes tha= t help protocols better use TLS as an authenticated key exchange protoco= l, or extensions that help protocols better leverage TLS security proper= ties, such as Exported Authenticators. Extensions that focus specificall= y on protocol extensibility are also in scope. This goal also includes p= rotocol changes that reduce the size of TLS without affecting security. = Extensions that help reduce TLS handshake size meet this criteria.=20 > >=20 > > The second working group goal is to improve security, privacy, and = deployability. This includes, for example, Delegated Credentials, Encryp= ted SNI, and GREASE. Security and privacy goals will place emphasis on t= he following: > >=20 > > - Encrypt the ClientHello SNI (Server Name Indication) and other ap= plication-sensitive extensions, such as ALPN (Application-Layer Protocol= Negotiation). > > - Identify and mitigate other (long-term) user tracking or fingerpr= inting vectors enabled by TLS deployments and implementations. > >=20 > > The third goal is to maintain current and previous version of the (= D)TLS protocol as well as to specify general best practices for use of (= D)TLS, extensions to (D)TLS, and cipher suites. This includes recommenda= tions as to when a particular version should be deprecated. Changes or a= dditions to older versions of (D)TLS whether via extensions or ciphersui= tes are discouraged and require significant justification to be taken on= as work items. > >=20 > > With these goals in mind, the working group will also place a prior= ity in minimizing gratuitous changes to (D)TLS. > > ~~~ > >=20 > > Best, > > Chris, on behalf of the chairs > >=20 > > [1] https://github.com/tlswg/wg-materials/blob/master/charter/chart= er.md > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > TLS mailing list > > TLS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Fri Jan 31 08:37:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C5B1208D0 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R_pY_0doyzp6 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com (mail-qv1-xf35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1BFF1208CC for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id dc14so3515423qvb.9 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sn3rd.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=4UcWWUblMpplWwqpA1HtStfy1M0fS0j7S6K+C0e7LpY=; b=OuF5ou4KsCK9loO9uXLsn3wh38t7tvfak5vmm2jMKF7SJwxm2LINKBGMQVToDJmwqB y2ufgShvIx6qfRg/mw1fWlFveIV3LETQc6y/xdRqiIjGvICm8K95P5a0dsiyq2gFVd0b Npix9c3vmEYubNmbC8cWLMBLanPd51rONHXWg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=4UcWWUblMpplWwqpA1HtStfy1M0fS0j7S6K+C0e7LpY=; b=jnCHjzXO88Wq3519zKW/dbKvvm4qlkJOXgEyG3PlmP9nwj+35eOuQanRZm8h1sV0o5 MptkdlvEdhikLwP4Lq/veBjk0TcC9LH3yKIuI+Yvm7T/t/4LRFKDpxDSX1bFSUXExy8Y hPS6pOYM1nc9/cGLEqNC4TYZW5Dz9igd4Pk1wN+cfXweR3+8wPDhMeDcOGN5kLmfCR// 3/ZhLrZIv3uEthaVbJe1IKfAmOefGFniHZYsqDuHOxC036gq1wpQr7xbOxImsLQbdFbM gjdedbaG3/KkzNm8ridm3YS5adDMoJlddn+GwPR8BcG9H3LtOE4JgMaMCMxCmQzI10bA FeAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUOs+533DV0DoNcvQqK+9sQIJ9fFrP8YCtZ6EIb3xJ/2N9+Tnbb NtnjUi1agVLc83HGEJzLNH8ha0yX4TM+ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzuhazonVFLmpa/5k0/r4COMGYZ/W0uLpX+0GFEDihTbLGKG22jdn2PpPOCI3EoWNkAkue7PA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c98c:: with SMTP id b12mr3016088qvk.240.1580488637956; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m95sm5139084qte.41.2020.01.31.08.37.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 08:37:17 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <2BEF00F1-5876-404C-9113-8F5276B869EE@sn3rd.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:37:16 -0500 To: TLS List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [TLS] PSK design team email X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:37:21 -0000 Thanks to everyone who volunteered to participate in the external PSK = design team [0]. We will send off a kickoff email to the group soon. = Note that we do not expect the design team to finish their work by IETF = 107 given the short amount of time remaining before that meeting. Thanks, Sean [0] https://ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/design-teams/= From nobody Fri Jan 31 09:06:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960B0120982 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SH3t-QCUofxv for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com [17.151.62.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FC0D1209A2 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 00VH2spx027557 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version : subject : date : references : to : in-reply-to : message-id; s=20180706; bh=zdBWgY5KLVLZqx8zbAwgmbhVyhybhY0l/cQf95+wsXI=; b=DpAD2HwKzmODgwl7Q9mKqXkeuX5hdd2Er/uxcPG4fzGdjj5XNagzoOLU5YnnbCMR/PZD WKEsg5ZT6mCTWluuNFz/jk59V/a06OiFBVPilNf8M/qZGq4gm+/AHT17fyKUM/0GvwEZ 9F7zCljoWxm4gljzhsmgwXeKmNnrpucKE6ZIih13CuuOzYoJnpHLz2DqFbztToyqPAUm e4B45019FJ4CsiT666Ib63tSWCMVUYMeqkKTeH0MHX47F1yBnFOlKtxiGpX9oDE3NAU4 v1rPK45dZ3cFwhV5UwbkcStL0/lfyjd4t/qwnKbAlNYf2RJLwm+gZ3SQWtHLrfmNi38p kw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.151]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 2xs6srqs58-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com [17.128.115.204]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.1.20190704 64bit (built Jul 4 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q4Z00BU9E6HENE0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q4Z00600D12XK00@nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 3ab6cfbeef9fe0930bcbd49ada4d0cd2 X-Va-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-Va-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 2f195843-dbcd-4495-ac5e-bf111dddad10 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 3ab6cfbeef9fe0930bcbd49ada4d0cd2 X-V-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-V-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: c3b181ed-b65a-42dd-a295-6f5aaf5ff45f X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2020-01-31_04:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.230.168.109] by nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q4Z0054LE6GCGB0@nwk-mmpp-sz12.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:06:12 -0800 References: <97de6364-c628-45aa-8613-ba1a32cc41b2@www.fastmail.com> <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> To: tls@ietf.org In-reply-to: <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> Message-id: <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-31_04:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:06:20 -0000 First off, thanks for the lively discussion on ticket reuse! I think = it's a valid use case and something that should continue to be = discussed. However, for the purposes of the WGLC for this draft, = draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests, it may be best to separate the = conversation. It seems that the negotiation of ticket reuse would be = best served by another document that could be adopted by the WG. The = ticket request document, as it was adopted, was specifically a mechanism = to request multiple tickets so as to *avoid* ticket reuse. This is = stated several times in the use cases (section 2) and security = considerations (section 5). While this does not preclude a future = extension that negotiates ticket reuse, I believe, as an author, that = enabling ticket reuse is out of scope of this particular document. Best, Tommy > On Jan 23, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Viktor Dukhovni = wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:32:51PM -0600, Nico Williams wrote: >=20 >> On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 09:43:21AM -0800, Watson Ladd wrote: >>> Sending a new ticket doesn't force clients to store it. >>=20 >> Sure, but if the old ticket will not be accepted again then the = client >> will incur a full handshake later. The client doesn't know if the = old >> ticket will or will not be accepted again. Extending the protocol to >> have the server signal that bit will require new OpenSSL extensions, >> which is why that is not a sufficiently good response to the Postfix >> issue. >=20 > Indeed, not storing the ticket breaks resumption. So I always store = the > ticket (actually what OpenSSL hands me is a serializable opaque > SSL_SESSION). For example, when the server allows reuse, but has a > shorter maximum ticket lifetime, its "as needed" new ticket needs to = be > stored, in order to replace a stale cached session and start using the > fresh one. >=20 > Regardless, I also believe that not applications need or want the > marginal privacy offered by single-use tickets (none for clients > with stable dedicated IP addresses) and it should be possible > in such cases (at effectively zero cost as proposed) to negotiate > reuse in a way that allows servers to handle both types of client. >=20 > This would allow Postfix to vend single-use tickets to clients > that request that (e.g. MUAs). Right now the code is statically > optimized for the MTA-to-MTA use-case. >=20 > So making reuse *negotiable* would in fact enhance privacy for MUAs on > ephemeral IPs sending sufficiently frequent email (from behind a NAT = or > otherwise shared or changing address) to a sufficiently popular > submission server that it is not trivial to link resumed TLS sessions = to > a given client. >=20 > --=20 > Viktor. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Fri Jan 31 14:27:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8DCC12004F for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:27:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r2FBLxCB3Jom for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F65912002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A140F3687D; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:27:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:27:16 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200131222716.GD49778@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 22:27:19 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 09:06:12AM -0800, Tommy Pauly wrote: > However, for the purposes of the WGLC for this draft, > draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests, it may be best to separate the > conversation. It seems that the negotiation of ticket reuse would be > best served by another document that could be adopted by the WG. The > ticket request document, as it was adopted, was specifically a > mechanism to request multiple tickets so as to *avoid* ticket reuse. Yes, but the issues DO NOT decouple. It is a mechanism to communicate the client's ticket requirements to the server. Many clients will want multiple tickets unconditionally, some will want none, or only one as the presented one becomes no longer valid. The use-case is that the Postfix SMTP server currently always vends replacement tickets ONLY when expiring. I'd like to be able to distinguish between clients that always want fresh tickcets (MUAs) and clients that don't (MTAs). This will also reduce ticket reuse. > This is stated several times in the use cases (section 2) and security > considerations (section 5). While this does not preclude a future > extension that negotiates ticket reuse, I believe, as an author, that > enabling ticket reuse is out of scope of this particular document. The two extensions will be in conflict. There's a trivial solution within the existing extension. One code of 255 fully addresses the issue, with no additional document required. Proliferation of conflicting documents does not help implementors. Let's address the issue before us in a single document. Reuse is not a separate issue, both are just ticket quantity negotiation. -- VIktor. From nobody Fri Jan 31 15:42:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F20120033 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:42:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Zh7srgIdtQy for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C96512009C for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id i7so7740076ilr.7 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:42:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FmpllQNmkgUvzWiStVCMW2+EpQU39WzmytxaEB2/z8Q=; b=W9Q5hYqHDz78zX0V5dvE9SMc/yIN1CV70UBPIYfL6Mtpo1tfpGA/DUpYgz1q7VDJTq 2QwGoB88IWGSZ3ueYClkPWyNqq34OdPwTl6qiXfFdHkYNC3UE1XFZIDQK8xBduHGUoFM qUeLR3D5m73Ny9EwExIKUgMXDOR9ePXnzlW7Q8hq4TGN+egBjiNOUIBj0jWLLxphznKp 1YHCEDNIFKERuHfxSLDR/gbikQ/sKZlk1WukT3v8mFO9AqH7UOoWoo0xgj2lyKnQyupP B4JuduvdrBmdXLfMth8DHCgqcHqWGSTsFa07qOyRrOku826Mc/1Fq/I+clIbt9dKiVwK GB/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FmpllQNmkgUvzWiStVCMW2+EpQU39WzmytxaEB2/z8Q=; b=ZXv5s7e1iNVcUZwwd1+jPYBzfUnyBt+BYdzh0Fbx/2IOOqORU3gyuDn6yeObif+/Qn EUXoysB43bWw3ninkhOHU0Ft8YEtfcwgFjIRg2twcUE5QIQfMXLc4JkmnHdApAiJFL/e gy9B5dx92694LxckxtZy6SanUQR9ZBWljNagkvfUWhlVFUZ0G3SfNY7NgfbUKLDcyvtj nbTaGnvcnF32hzylmo3d8YW09YSgZZ8lJJEFrwOr7UWXOAnBj8hvN/llZQ2OfkFYuI3B uT4zG8XoCfiFxWVzSwn4bUsNr0zV0mTukVkPJBTnA++3dfuhtm99I9UhUTxet/87CYL4 Rc8g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVTzN03kfRebGIsKAwKmzBJQjEyvOnLOyaxP+0wezw/grXVkvhZ x2pS50mNLDAqGoN1rxM3kVViqeELbd3L8j/LkS8ZsJhjuILo4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy2DpeAvSD+syc85WQ1cV0uIvK7f6pKLwjKTUTBtz18R00IEQ2dblcdavi5Z/spojnTQJWr0J5KNQ4W4EElUcY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9c1c:: with SMTP id h28mr4800181ili.189.1580514126633; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:42:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2BEF00F1-5876-404C-9113-8F5276B869EE@sn3rd.com> In-Reply-To: <2BEF00F1-5876-404C-9113-8F5276B869EE@sn3rd.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:41:55 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sean Turner Cc: TLS List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000149e4a059d781fd6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] PSK design team email X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:42:09 -0000 --000000000000149e4a059d781fd6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That sounds great. Note that the linked IESG statement says: - the membership of the design team must also be public and posted to the mailing list. - any design team that lasts for more than a few months should make regular public reports on what they are doing. It sounds like this design team will last more than a few months, so a public report on their activity might be expected after IETF 107 (a few months from now...). thanks, Rob On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:37 AM Sean Turner wrote: > Thanks to everyone who volunteered to participate in the external PSK > design team [0]. We will send off a kickoff email to the group soon. Note > that we do not expect the design team to finish their work by IETF 107 > given the short amount of time remaining before that meeting. > > Thanks, > Sean > > [0] https://ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/design-teams/ > --000000000000149e4a059d781fd6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That sounds=C2=A0great. Note that the linked IESG sta= tement says:

- the membership of the design team m= ust also be public and posted to the mailing list.
-=C2=A0any des= ign team that lasts for more than a few months should make regular public r= eports on what they are doing.

It sounds like this= design team will last more than a few months, so a public report on their = activity might be expected after IETF 107 (a few months from now...).
=

thanks,
Rob=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at = 8:37 AM Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com> wrote:
Tha= nks to everyone who volunteered to participate in the external PSK design t= eam [0]. We will send off a kickoff email to the group soon. Note that we d= o not expect the design team to finish their work by IETF 107 given the sho= rt amount of time remaining before that meeting.

Thanks,
Sean

[0] https://ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/st= atements/design-teams/
--000000000000149e4a059d781fd6-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 15:55:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998E0120105 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gjpo3Nr8Rs2M for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from caracal.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (caracal.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D74F120A35 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:55:47 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0FB5A129E; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:55:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a53.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-217-5.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.217.5]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 120E25A0F98; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:55:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a53.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:55:46 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Shade-Trail: 66a6e63451d299a7_1580514946309_3204282637 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580514946308:1297215797 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580514946308 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a53.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a53.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D797F61E; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:55:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=z6N7DYG8y/pYX2 7t0DMCFlDu/1g=; b=g7C/BX3siZfQQfF37OCsikok/tq+Azg+HVUspIovKpjR6r AeMqHysCPHDOwmdgvSsFRfMJPhsAmnJLVnP2n9VWHQ/INkaLPZV21SSAyVSTbscJ QcWNxSd3UEU04RvfbTOsZjSf/sYXvPe3n+AGcgUOpPOKFsZjYwpLWchUzvD9g= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a53.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F9587F61A; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:55:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:55:35 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a53 From: Nico Williams To: Tommy Pauly Cc: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> References: <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: 0 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjfgesthdtredttdervdenucfhrhhomheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdphhgvlhhopehlohgtrghlhhhoshhtpdhinhgvthepvdegrddvkedruddtkedrudekfedprhgvthhurhhnqdhprghthheppfhitghoucghihhllhhirghmshcuoehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmqedpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhmpdhnrhgtphhtthhopehnihgtohestghrhihpthhonhgvtghtohhrrdgtohhm Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:55:54 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 09:06:12AM -0800, Tommy Pauly wrote: > First off, thanks for the lively discussion on ticket reuse! I think > it's a valid use case and something that should continue to be > discussed. > > However, for the purposes of the WGLC for this draft, > draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests, it may be best to separate the > conversation. It seems that the negotiation of ticket reuse would be > best served by another document that could be adopted by the WG. The Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to consider his comments, and needs to reach consensus. Considering the fact that cosensus has not yet _obviously_ been reached (there have been positive and negative responses), the WG's chairs may need to make a call for consensus (or maybe the chairs think consensus is obvious?). Consider this my encouragement to the chairs that they make a call for consensus. > ticket request document, as it was adopted, was specifically a > mechanism to request multiple tickets so as to *avoid* ticket reuse. TLS 1.3 already does that. The adoption call is nowhere near as specific -- in fact, it says nothing about purpose of the extension. The TLS WG charter doesn't mention it. The abstract of this I-D says, among other things: This extension aims to provide a means for servers to determine the number of tickets to generate in order to reduce ticket waste, while ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ simultaneously priming clients for future connection attempts. That number could be zero, and indeed, that's allowed. "Zero unless you won't allow me to reuse this one" seems clearly in-scope to me. That you have no need for it, doesn't make it out of scope or a bad idea. Moreover, I posted an explanation of why this extension will cause Postfix trouble. That deserves a substantive response (and IETF process may even demand it). Nico -- From nobody Fri Jan 31 16:43:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FF6D120045 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:43:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AYoI_uVcOBpe for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:43:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CA6912002F for ; 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Sat, 01 Feb 2020 00:43:19 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 0110XKIe001695; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:43:19 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint7.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2xrhw27fds-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:43:18 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:43:17 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:43:17 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Nico Williams , Tommy Pauly CC: "tls@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Thread-Index: AQHV0BhBnGnnVzdCKkiiYDxEPh1X6qf08giAgAAzNYCAABhpgIAAMMaAgAJU6YCAAASuAIAAEWyAgACix4CAAAwggIAAVICAgAAemICAABjdgIAMUNAAgAByYYD//7mDgA== Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 00:43:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1F297776-6A94-45FC-8EB6-93E45299498F@akamai.com> References: <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.112.214] Content-Type: text/plain; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 00:43:24 -0000 KzEgdG8gd2hhdCBOaWNvIHNheXMuDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Jan 31 16:58:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F260C12002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHGD7Gx8VZJB for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x141.google.com (mail-il1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 242AA120045 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x141.google.com with SMTP id g12so7861575ild.2 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=F3BIGw6DGh3cn5Jlx81yH7v9Q7HCN7J9ueUBpRjAzg8=; b=IRsjtFQ6Ll/imnxfLXWD4s6ltyONLkjeqzxM+Mq/SFntEBqcwhzu2I+UQchBQ0UM22 1KmjQf4YNstWJEcrsYbpP9aJG3Jf6knEE7uxtEWmspXFeKsyODhn/jHM3pDW/B0W9eix Fh5r/R+xmanP0dLdso6Fk3O20iWXbhftu5oRS+HLsTItOd3Brf0ZRUsJC2XAX1VMg3Ni SrL/MTUMOkvNodsUgfK6Dk+FKY/KNxK8DIUKkiY4B616tyGHG8tPZGFI/ETRn/7Pl4cC fGPGJllgkbzj9HvTq8BAsdKMB60AMdzyRQjZtb2iP6UJ8n0wN0kqS8xI1aoxjQf5juQ0 QPeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=F3BIGw6DGh3cn5Jlx81yH7v9Q7HCN7J9ueUBpRjAzg8=; b=JeP0e1NEJHBI0HfAR3cIbl5Z8+c1AiQyhkyqbsQeDqNE7S23tRyDqpcurH+pO0Kett 0krRr0LsY+4qP9SkbpX+nyMnNfzXVkwLb3k5jxwszeYvPTZDAyzBYwdBDiYNOb9zaXr8 0CItfuap3412MZeMsXDWmLuOOnwsBLf9U9ZljNX89CLi0zf7KV9CHrLIwmnAbirlO404 T9OhcXr9xLd8I8luvh4Qo7ZZTYfruaHdjADmQcNeE9lZRBqB//tiyvPz7+4MbCR7eYz5 xR0Xox5VvUK/isDq/Y7AoFvEwX6+weT1Z8bxQNLzYNyy3tJ+4esilsN7ZZ8+4/v2a+Jh OFyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5dSJhs8EXpRIzBlnoy8pK9/dOOObAjka4JRPw/ZIgUxLWAseD 8WvARXUZxcsanMQ9hYZ6q2/Ckz0MdNfyDwk3bDGS2oMG/8U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxABRHOiWSfpD1/9zvYkg+NtRBa9/OxhWtlPl9RB5GfPRSinwyFyysxFAcEWDyX7LHrEG67uB8NkcUQWSNRaIA= X-Received: by 2002:a92:7903:: with SMTP id u3mr5177126ilc.254.1580518699267; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <08A4B0CD-9903-4027-B672-E8C7AFB34B4D@akamai.com> <20200123005528.GA12073@localhost> <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 16:58:07 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Cc: Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a17afe059d792fb4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 00:58:22 -0000 --000000000000a17afe059d792fb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 09:06:12AM -0800, Tommy Pauly wrote: > > First off, thanks for the lively discussion on ticket reuse! I think > > it's a valid use case and something that should continue to be > > discussed. > > > > However, for the purposes of the WGLC for this draft, > > draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests, it may be best to separate the > > conversation. It seems that the negotiation of ticket reuse would be > > best served by another document that could be adopted by the WG. The > > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to > consider his comments, Yes. > and needs to reach consensus. > No. This draft should move forward. thanks, Rob --000000000000a17afe059d792fb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Will= iams <nico@cryptonector.com= > wrote:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 09:06:12AM -0800, Tommy Paul= y wrote:
> First off, thanks for the lively discussion on ticket reuse! I think > it's a valid use case and something that should continue to be
> discussed.
>
> However, for the purposes of the WGLC for this draft,
> draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests, it may be best to separate the
> conversation. It seems that the negotiation of ticket reuse would be > best served by another document that could be adopted by the WG. The
Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to
consider his comments,

Yes.
=C2= =A0
and needs to re= ach consensus.=C2=A0

No. This draft sho= uld move forward.

thanks,
Rob
--000000000000a17afe059d792fb4-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:11:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC7612002F for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ZyfPSz3Y2AW for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from egyptian.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (egyptian.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25F13120013 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:11:23 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB155E1322; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:11:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-7-4.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.7.4]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8920B5E1614; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:11:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:11:22 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Desert-Unite: 1bad557b28954a83_1580519482044_3691620806 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580519482044:3247025010 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580519482043 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7FB88053D; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:11:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=oG4M1SjXfqNgpA P28neyNnAAMOU=; b=eZiN/cvr+FZW72i8jfDNQnwcWu6iRjhm6cwYbk0AGHb6tX XH7oLG6aYUo8dCFc/e2oNAi4iFC820/YZ7WqnRoDf0I2thX8RbAz+vdSkT4/iN1/ AljR6Iwp55eLyaGD9JObXzmAbfy1qPBz+//I2qkqwd5jtsmF2c+w74jy53XMs= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC87A80518; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:11:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:11:16 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Nico Williams To: Rob Sayre Cc: Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdeftdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:11:24 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:58:07PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams wrote: > > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to > > consider his comments, > > Yes. > > > and needs to reach consensus. > > No. This draft should move forward. WGLCs are not about finding and discussing spelling errors. This is not how the Standards-Track RFC publication process works. Nico -- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:15:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157E712002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFM_QfZ4awH7 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D65DD120013 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd42.google.com with SMTP id k24so10384811ioc.4 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+tJ/LKUxWjWHKXejxufoCZFarQPPil+78CcS4Mzue4g=; b=uILCF1JuU9LAjJAiemdDsnoQ5eyUjgO5+oNZhrpjkI5eLQ4e7I4+oH+wAqlDFYn+q5 iwZAEQzsM2q1Rtu3aIJmEalg38d8/tGRpK71j+1SCfbxgDxRrpRgnAvh6GQZPf7kczIM MU7n+GuOEZnTDlj/E/x49POYEngQT/3TWTy5JUSZMci+Qm5tQWCgxbDwM5LFdtMMID01 qx6sWl6D4JBHKshYeNcKRCnF/WFzkDyyt/YUgW3WeKvhcgjqbgBQO3obK6ML1TBnmQ+v 4dzEk0CAIBjkhKfmn1pZu/eaN0AAjLaH7umv/S3874qK0BqjcijMAAZ1mY+YkXGmXPf1 yR0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+tJ/LKUxWjWHKXejxufoCZFarQPPil+78CcS4Mzue4g=; b=FWlGVHhddS42d8G5xvGiWKsMfQrlhgCe9DZKFNRugvNvnIceXS8/5mUmgoqhorPg6+ Sq0ys043ats9ief2PwGxrM3PD3m6PEZ+pzbxIFZOFUbLOLNQXxb5ja+ilN4Fs7Lw9GeY Trnkn4z9syL7Et0hFffQE3mnxrBsT1Ur/5sGVhaKvA9Tnkpvn32RVeFNnK0ghlGCdtqM Gzad12xN4wB3cnYCawbgNYFqYepvCvIpZZ/Z1PiGsv2EGhPk/8l6gL022JcpXBQzzCLa Z2xRz5sy84Cm4QPMJX51O7NNeI5G2VLp84OV6ZnlK6kl4oevSHnwDQOV4xhcSorSN5g7 XMfA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW1sxw2cADEqbsO+kmtYp5zoKrO3gsOjj+c6+hPfqrrTOgHv26h lak2zbwtihCXkwelVI/G/saS9rRfK64Xgo5MZyA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwtUiSXlkK/sSJGhZr9KL3JYuhYR3ZiK9yStDry4jeaH5isC6TDOl0UHsEPqrgHMaHSl4jBNVonqmuJBFPOrBs= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cbd9:: with SMTP id u25mr10925918jaq.106.1580519752079; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:15:40 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Cc: Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000621d4e059d796e55" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:15:54 -0000 --000000000000621d4e059d796e55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:11 PM Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:58:07PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams > wrote: > > > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to > > > consider his comments, > > > > Yes. > > > > > and needs to reach consensus. > > > > No. This draft should move forward. > > WGLCs are not about finding and discussing spelling errors. This is not > how the Standards-Track RFC publication process works. > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, it can be indefinitely postponed. thanks, Rob --000000000000621d4e059d796e55 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:11 PM Nico Will= iams <nico@cryptonector.com= > wrote:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:58:07PM -0800, Rob Sayre = wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:=
> > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs= to
> > consider his comments,
>
> Yes.
>
> > and needs to reach consensus.
>
> No. This draft should move forward.

WGLCs are not about finding and discussing spelling errors.=C2=A0 This is n= ot
how the Standards-Track RFC publication process works.

If the scope of a document can be continually expanded duri= ng last call, it can be indefinitely postponed.

th= anks,
Rob
=C2=A0
--000000000000621d4e059d796e55-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:23:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2292512002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:23:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QM1LpGYWPPQM for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (cheetah.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8702120013 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:23:13 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155AD1A1D94; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:23:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-216-5.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.216.5]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 976A41A1E80; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:23:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:23:13 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Whistle-Wipe: 74870f8c18d4113b_1580520192858_4038581231 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580520192858:3659037849 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580520192858 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66780553; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:23:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=llil9uBG4L0JCY nUoVHhPwGZynk=; b=N2l64ht8o75pybbJt/wMj8JsHcCSDTLchDQARF2Zp0elKT Kr4T0LAn96ZWBgf/0wKjvA7bPaCEKyXpM1YzcS1CP36ZqhCdLNvpesHXeVD+/h+c IvfgMfvsgRHlKRdGnSs7q+SNV+6op1d9ANaWHskUJbxIQEDjnxeJRgOcnEEzk= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53BA080552; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:23:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:23:04 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Nico Williams To: Rob Sayre Cc: Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200201012302.GC18021@localhost> References: <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdeffecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:23:16 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 05:15:40PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, it > can be indefinitely postponed. There is no attempt to postpone, and the WGLC has finished. No new issues will be raised. But the ones that were raised _will_ be addressed. Being left on the rough side of consensus happens; having substantive issues raised in a timely manner ignored must not. The IETF is not a rubber-stamp SDO. We have a process. We don't just pay it lip service. WGLC is not going through the motions. The prescribed process will be followed. Nico -- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:24:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E50812002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:24:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zCFTGT8DamCy for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 499D1120020 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (unknown [192.168.1.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98A25368E3 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:24:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Viktor Dukhovni In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:24:24 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: IETF TLS WG Message-Id: <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> To: IETF TLS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:24:28 -0000 > On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >=20 > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last = call, it can be indefinitely postponed. I'm not proposing a change of scope. The document specifies how a = client and server negotiate the number of tickets the server should send. This remains the case. The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario where the client does want tickets to be refreshed (so not unconditionally = zero), but does not want gratuitous tickets (new one each time). The scope of the document per the abstract includes the following: This extension aims to provide a means for servers to determine the number of tickets to generate in order to reduce ticket waste, while simultaneously priming clients for future connection attempts My proposal falls squarely in the "in order to reduce ticket waste" = category. --=20 Viktor. From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:43:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F66120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dK3H8DB13lEu for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D164120020 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id n21so10383716ioo.10 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+p2bMpPFModHKzhmW2OXIapyvaNgoZyJIrcuiSW81YE=; b=JWuCqoJtx0oYYkQp+7E42jdSAXLDEoYTzdVuE48ayi443pgXX0UaxoMomMESoh3pV2 3yliDCaT0jBEwHB5e9ipHTMqFKbek9tL+KBxe+Zh1gGhSpqryh6oY5kLsdMUZfMw3SrC wmDzMssXh3PVpOtyUexT3cdsH6Wcbw1Gjk/ccztGZbaB7C6RDSOMkmXPR57mdgCRzRgG QxRHz8b+d24ns/6tw8HBoYL04my0WvwIs87q3G2+pSM0a2zxPKYE6ocsGw4xqLknWacb OtpKRZJvavTiQUi9UvxItvd89U7FaUuoZj3w0+IAQVTO1trG/roj7B/3oriZle910RM9 0Vbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+p2bMpPFModHKzhmW2OXIapyvaNgoZyJIrcuiSW81YE=; b=bv/uuYCOLPKQRjlgYpNB3KiMAe8hIKZDPJ8Ui0s1thajYefv0eppHpg/MpojcF1exY PHsrQOQc2we3U9qsTRt5jyWZ3fVDAIJgVTQWazKjTbRZ8ohD6V/fTTODkH9Qm+oIEITF HTLBJLNKeLIdkLLOC43RLQZNMxd5KmmUDLLIVh4oNKoN4J8UTsSNvMjb0xJhqCIvURIH gYap6yo0b6khxnqXYpkjXLVZu8vBSrfqbiBgvKypxtajRRya+ebmBrzthm34/pbzjGAt U3pAO2yIBDOHp/5DGvoZmDmZptCmXPxBR/OnK4Z0PQD+N8ea6A7qe5wtXOQXOND96Mog eBLA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWX2BmipXFsM5adofx6W4xTAVZF9uNOuzcj0rfWw5MqB4ZKeasF wG/shUUssUOvLo5HFVBY/PF71e9MfT5RU+xSNnR31dZ6W38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx6i6anmyOcjP98x/IukzxM7lpaOxzlc7aNEq8hZqmzoT9tF+MPz3j1SGY/fkp960guRfMI6ypBcKJsKrjKpzQ= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:731a:: with SMTP id e26mr10566442ioh.254.1580521428232; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> In-Reply-To: <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:43:36 -0800 Message-ID: To: IETF TLS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a310d059d79d25e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:43:51 -0000 --0000000000004a310d059d79d25e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:24 PM Viktor Dukhovni wrote: > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > > > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, > it can be indefinitely postponed. > > I'm not proposing a change of scope. ... > The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario... > That sounds like a change of scope, but reasonable people can disagree. thanks, Rob --0000000000004a310d059d79d25e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:24 PM Viktor Du= khovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org= > wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre <= sayrer@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
>
> If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last cal= l, it can be indefinitely postponed.

I'm not proposing a change of scope.=C2=A0

=
...
=C2=A0
The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario...

That sounds like a change of scope, but reasonable people= can disagree.

thanks,
Rob
--0000000000004a310d059d79d25e-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:48:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2222112003F for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sHLdYQRexbI9 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from fossa.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (fossa.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08382120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:06 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 641D8341EB3; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:48:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-217-5.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.217.5]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BD8E4341979; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 01:48:05 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:48:06 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Spicy-Skirt: 4f80e06479d61506_1580521686189_3064134372 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580521686189:1425525105 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580521686189 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E89F804AF; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=vBJ6ZA+Tgh0aT7 hHW9fKmgx0sUQ=; b=fUneKHvomHL/9MKgwZZjuSJG/mzettnJuff1aAefP7b1Hr y51wSIuyM1kVaCOCbLcvVf1h32V0f3bdwqrQbPY9emZvOYALL7J84bp3p46kdx1N v4s0uCOg0SII+FHhXaPV/KFEbo9w/7dOlFUvD+hdfZ73B0Jd024p8UKkx70Xg= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E5E480552; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:47:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:47:57 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Nico Williams To: Rob Sayre Cc: IETF TLS WG Message-ID: <20200201014755.GD18021@localhost> References: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdefjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:48:08 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 05:43:36PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:24 PM Viktor Dukhovni > wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > > > > > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, > > it can be indefinitely postponed. > > > > I'm not proposing a change of scope. > > > .... > > > The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario... > > > > That sounds like a change of scope, but reasonable people can disagree. The scope was never sufficiently well defined to begin with. I went through the adoption thread and the WG charter. 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[64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:48:52 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Decisive-Spot: 45b9c98c5727595c_1580521731966_1569828305 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580521731966:2042135046 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580521731965 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5454A804AF; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=OhzUqyvWiJccM+ se2AgZpuLg6PY=; b=wYYkr4RZM/mw9rakcmpXaHUdnLxeyf1ge/ASThfdtPK+5f sgOxWX14681tf3FE5o8xq0i0D6VUIzAezZ7muokF7MKO4CuPkl6+7BniVapKjroL Ig5T3XQTBKMndqiwDSAAxwxO+Y9VnKXNIvFD4Q2FGGXspz6VBL6PTrCF8I55A= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61617804F5; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:48:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:48:45 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Nico Williams To: Rob Sayre Cc: IETF TLS WG Message-ID: <20200201014844.GE18021@localhost> References: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> <20200201014755.GD18021@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200201014755.GD18021@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdefjecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgepudenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:48:54 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 07:47:57PM -0600, Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 05:43:36PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:24 PM Viktor Dukhovni > > wrote: > > > > > > On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: > > > > > > > > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, > > > it can be indefinitely postponed. > > > > > > I'm not proposing a change of scope. > > > > > > .... > > > > > The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario... > > > > > > > That sounds like a change of scope, but reasonable people can disagree. > > The scope was never sufficiently well defined to begin with. I went > through the adoption thread and the WG charter. Oh, and I'm not conceding that the proposed change would be a scope change even if the scope had been sufficiently well defined. From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:52:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08B22120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:52:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8ZIxdlTogOT for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-f46.google.com (mail-vs1-f46.google.com [209.85.217.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36AAE12003F for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:52:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-f46.google.com with SMTP id x123so5634181vsc.2 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+q15FS+uK1QqcwrBjHFHtqYAiVMrDKCBUI7fhSb+tyk=; b=LmsSf9DapHymu19uzT4TnhTDTV56NkWKQsxyz1xQDXSKVT4dhLrzaAQzAcny2CW55P SHaIj7VNEtvkxmTPVTXLXiRp6WNegjTNrEdNgH6x5hgAkCuQ8011oRmCmcIymegk3SFC hQfEX4ygDU5Y7Q59IAyBbSnVhgt8Bn31xb/J7c2o88xg4HzK9OJI7NMq2ikmAvOal8to YGfb6IMX4eLNngNLSHmhWZdsCJ+/7+tOhvo2YXwapU429ynuw85BOKu3P4+PTLaHy/qa SbFhIptuxlTpfbVP0skmDzI1E4MwOFRMkra1TCPl5Tn2KyX46lJJrzVAFyRkfggyI3y6 sEPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWphXVu8ml5Q3pbagQC+ekBcdf4j24N3JztsL1EBa1KxrXuCPhe 0Xkw/4PLt4t+XxchVLWrG56MJYloPZ1DKOqY/x0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy+6FdtJxJ2B1tXvlLoTliySezhhku7EL90GvmFxA6A5iaQK/47GWcXmd8Ty4zKVXiOXG+F9BU+V7BZHMGoSTU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:72b:: with SMTP id u11mr8676841vsg.69.1580521919324; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:51:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:51:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Sayre Cc: Nico Williams , Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008fa6f0059d79efe8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:52:02 -0000 --0000000000008fa6f0059d79efe8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:16 PM Rob Sayre wrote: > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:11 PM Nico Williams > wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:58:07PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: >> > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams >> wrote: >> > > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs to >> > > consider his comments, >> > >> > Yes. >> > >> > > and needs to reach consensus. >> > >> > No. This draft should move forward. >> >> WGLCs are not about finding and discussing spelling errors. This is not >> how the Standards-Track RFC publication process works. >> > > If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last call, > it can be indefinitely postponed. > > It is unclear to me how this applies here. Could you be a bit more explicit and state what, in your opinion, is continually expanding ? > thanks, > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --0000000000008fa6f0059d79efe8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 8:16 PM Rob S= ayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote= :
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 5:11 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com= > wrote:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 04:58:07PM -0800, Rob Sa= yre wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:=
> > Viktor's comment came before the end of WGLC, so the WG needs= to
> > consider his comments,
>
> Yes.
>
> > and needs to reach consensus.
>
> No. This draft should move forward.

WGLCs are not about finding and discussing spelling errors.=C2=A0 This is n= ot
how the Standards-Track RFC publication process works.

If the scope of a document can be continually expanded duri= ng last call, it can be indefinitely postponed.

<= /div>
It is unclear to me how this applies here. Could you= be a bit more explicit and state what, in your opinion, is continually exp= anding ?
=C2=A0
thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
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--0000000000008fa6f0059d79efe8-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:54:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B119120074 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:54:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6-J5OLVC03JV for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8006B120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 0111qBUY051757 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:56 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version : subject : date : references : to : in-reply-to : message-id; s=20180706; bh=2EsSjlPljxWP7iSVAMcTISsMEkf4xQK0xWSL8HAh628=; b=k3hZX/ddc+sVTPA9DVmNWB6UOOttiUe8vFgH7cEJ3AyTJGo/4gzW6TJtYzNHKtTie7me MqeKOIQy8PkTE+bI4iAIaFUyK5nUuMnXAfb/WCVrvrlF9SjIoq7MRsxx3b7Qn8Z4An6G GNk/BAAhpB3kHLNuAbzMdWGRmbE4xv40+JwebBWzUmgWCgCaxMtoDgGq8sF35ZwpUNo2 pJu8bKo/mYE4SAJ0kHrC1wq1z3Hq9E/5BwEs78tULNUtlL5YJY3mz1roCrrSSqe5FnKP NkeZT3SLQcbF1cPIx0MzK6zAxIkhX3lwXGE12VYTNup9u3yYR7N2z96UQrG8lMaBckiM Xw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.151]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 2xrnj3n29q-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:56 -0800 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.1.20190704 64bit (built Jul 4 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q500015S2LUVHE0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q5000H002IVX200@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 3ab6cfbeef9fe0930bcbd49ada4d0cd2 X-Va-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-Va-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: f2449301-87b0-4504-8eba-82e152537ec7 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 3ab6cfbeef9fe0930bcbd49ada4d0cd2 X-V-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-V-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: f9786c27-4620-4798-8909-082ce00af532 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2020-01-31_07:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.230.168.109] by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q5000KXK2LUCG60@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com> for tls@ietf.org; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:54 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:53:50 -0800 References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> To: IETF TLS WG In-reply-to: <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> Message-id: <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-31_07:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:54:00 -0000 Hi Viktor, > On Jan 31, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Viktor Dukhovni = wrote: >=20 >> On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Rob Sayre wrote: >>=20 >> If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last = call, it can be indefinitely postponed. >=20 > I'm not proposing a change of scope. The document specifies how a = client > and server negotiate the number of tickets the server should send. = This > remains the case. The -04 document leaves out a relevant scenario = where > the client does want tickets to be refreshed (so not unconditionally = zero), > but does not want gratuitous tickets (new one each time). >=20 > The scope of the document per the abstract includes the following: >=20 > This extension aims to provide a means for > servers to determine the number of tickets to generate in order to > reduce ticket waste, while simultaneously priming clients for future > connection attempts >=20 > My proposal falls squarely in the "in order to reduce ticket waste" = category. The document also is focused on use cases that are all about "avoid[ing] = ticket re-use". The security considerations state that "Ticket re-use is = a security and privacy concern". While there are some use cases in which ticket re-use allows the = reduction of ticket waste, we cannot state that every possible approach = to reduce ticket waste is in scope for this particular document. Rather, = this document defines its scope as simply: "This document describes a = mechanism by which clients can specify the desired number of tickets = needed for future connections." Enabling ticket reuse is not part of = that scope. Beyond discussing scope creep, I think an even bigger reason to decouple = the idea of ticket requests from explicit ticket re-use is the notion of = working group consensus. I think the WG has clearly expressed consensus = on the fact that ticket requests are a useful and non-harmful extension. = Indeed, the proposals to add ticket reuse logic to ticket requests that = you want relies on such an extension. However, the group certainly does = not seem to have consensus on the idea that there should be an extension = to allow ticket reuse. As an author, I don't know if I'd support that. = Thus, the working group can progress with the tightly-scoped document = that it has consensus on, and leave other use cases to future documents. Thanks, Tommy >=20 > --=20 > Viktor. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls From nobody Fri Jan 31 17:59:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19350120045 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jrt2QuGTRigE for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F59120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 0111q7gd052512; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:28 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : content-type : mime-version : subject : from : in-reply-to : date : cc : content-transfer-encoding : message-id : references : to; s=20180706; bh=nPfhLXBXWHmhUuhwXQF8deHpHrQ5QI8ildac384FgJI=; b=F1Sci9Ufrs/z0OBl9dwk3TIvU5YJCD6qhe1KIqiMucbY+32YoUw2y/ArxFMNe0U2NKHv /FpZtBptp5kwiHWqUYVshRZ3rTVcQ0Qaaq+4CHEGwt/GMsWjEQTfLkWj7k5W4ZI4q/2d FlCL3O1GvwYN+icaswqxAnDLUrGDDhA2VqLMKZkDznDAK1ifqbOJhOCpQQTB8Gkdf/KN SqlkYEJnspzUbiAo+Jx2CilMGTu4ZDYsusPfHJ1E2VF6vzdfeaX1InokCDnhJqNDztZB 89picS0I5T3nh4rL0+44pF9fAq/zZpp1f0iqxNlGufEqA+UUJZvzY78x7gs2TyH+/u+f RA== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.152]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 2xrn7b0fug-6 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:28 -0800 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.1.20190704 64bit (built Jul 4 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q50011KS2V4IB30@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q5000M002LN9400@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:28 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 697a433e6cef5d2da4e5f9329f649989 X-Va-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-Va-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 099e486b-4448-4da9-83db-efd802b3bdb5 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 697a433e6cef5d2da4e5f9329f649989 X-V-E-CD: 7f7e14a8463c26a765e1ab3769b5d901 X-V-R-CD: 6a2bc58b15f70a522f15c151e4c2a302 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: d456a7d0-1a2a-4140-a4dd-fbbc3a703adb X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2020-01-31_07:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.230.168.109] by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q500024M2V3SB50@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:27 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: <20200201012302.GC18021@localhost> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:59:23 -0800 Cc: Rob Sayre , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <20200201012302.GC18021@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-31_07:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 01:59:33 -0000 Hi Nico, As a point on the process, I don't think anyone is proposing = rubber-stamping. We are instead only suggesting that a set of work that = has consensus does not need to be held up by adding new work that does = not have consensus. The outcome of points raised during a WGLC does not need to be a change = in the document, if the group does not have consensus that the suggested = change is correct. Particularly, as in this case, a comment during WGLC = to add new functionality that is not part of addressing the intended = scope of a working group deliverable does not need to be added before = progressing. I think this is a case in which we have consensus on the = basic ticket requests, but adding ticket reuse is (based on the way this = thread has not converged) is in the rough.=20 Thanks, Tommy > On Jan 31, 2020, at 5:23 PM, Nico Williams = wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 05:15:40PM -0800, Rob Sayre wrote: >> If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last = call, it >> can be indefinitely postponed. >=20 > There is no attempt to postpone, and the WGLC has finished. No new > issues will be raised. But the ones that were raised _will_ be > addressed. Being left on the rough side of consensus happens; having > substantive issues raised in a timely manner ignored must not. >=20 > The IETF is not a rubber-stamp SDO. We have a process. We don't just > pay it lip service. WGLC is not going through the motions. The > prescribed process will be followed. >=20 > Nico > --=20 From nobody Fri Jan 31 18:07:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7390120045 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePJ9SJ8OyJgS for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5E8E120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (unknown [192.168.1.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7778A36C38 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:06:58 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Viktor Dukhovni In-Reply-To: <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:06:57 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: IETF TLS WG Message-Id: References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> To: IETF TLS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:07:03 -0000 > On Jan 31, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > Thus, the working group can progress with the tightly-scoped document = that it has consensus on, and leave other use cases to future documents. Such a deferral may be desirable and viable in cases where the features are sufficiently orthogonal. But here the extension specifies the number of requested tickets, and so any separate document would have to change the semantics of this extension in order to get conditional issuance of tickets. It makes no sense to split the negotiation of the ticket number over multiple documents. The added use-case is effectively *free* to ignore by implementations that never want reuse, just treat zero as 1, and be done. If this were a major burdensome feature, I'd be sympathetic to your desire to carve it out to a separate discussion. But here, I'm pretty consensus will be reached soon after we stop focusing on the legitimacy or timing of the proposal and focus on its substance in a final wrap-up consensus call. I may end up in the rough, but let's at least see where the chips fall. The security considerations can continue to discourage reuse where traffic analysis is a concern. It is NOT a concern in MTA-to-MTA traffic. If my proposal moves forward, I'll gladly contribute some text to the security considerations discouraging wanton application of ticket reuse. It should be enabled only where appropriate. Note that I'd like to use this extension to conditionally enable non-reuse where presently re-use is unconditional. Otherwise, Postfix will just always go with reuse. --=20 Viktor. From nobody Fri Jan 31 18:07:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40A8120838 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqlAdtioHZQa for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from aye.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (aye.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C001120BF4 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76F8501EA5; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 02:07:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-216-4.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.216.4]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 48F83501DD1; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 02:07:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.18.5); Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:07:36 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Dime-Trade: 3ec3e5b56e67fc61_1580522856541_4152990526 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1580522856541:1158542369 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1580522856541 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E742680652; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=g6Oi6VJUvBbaDM 3L7dgPRmzPsBI=; b=LOKPHFn/eQ01xiu31xLZY2mWodp78eSc7vW2tJYf1sGgzn gICRAs19zrtWMjNOc2SVoGSo1HfooMr+7bFVPacbBrQuYi6m+wxuLUCD81gbywN6 kWgfsbIrzWRTQ2bE0bBPUVMua2B2Hfw45djA2+daqRdpTRZ65j6bddwrGrUcs= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a43.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4226480651; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:07:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:07:26 -0600 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a43 From: Nico Williams To: Tommy Pauly Cc: Rob Sayre , "TLS@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200201020725.GF18021@localhost> References: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <20200201012302.GC18021@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrgedugdegvdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfftffgtefojffquffvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjughrpeffhffvuffkfhggtggujggfsehttdertddtredvnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqnecukfhppedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpedvgedrvdekrddutdekrddukeefpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpefpihgtohcuhghilhhlihgrmhhsuceonhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepnhhitghosegtrhihphhtohhnvggtthhorhdrtghomh Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:07:42 -0000 On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 05:59:23PM -0800, Tommy Pauly wrote: > As a point on the process, I don't think anyone is proposing > rubber-stamping. We are instead only suggesting that a set of work > that has consensus does not need to be held up by adding new work that > does not have consensus. A substantive issue was raised. Until that is disposed of through normal consensus-finding mechanisms, there is no consensus for the I-D to progress. That's how the process works. > The outcome of points raised during a WGLC does not need to be a > change in the document, if the group does not have consensus that the Correct. But first that consensus needs to be reached. > suggested change is correct. Particularly, as in this case, a comment > during WGLC to add new functionality that is not part of addressing > [...] That's not how the process works. Of course a substantive issue raised at WGLC or IETF LC time (or IESG review time) can require new functionality to be addressed properly! There is no rule that no functionality may be added as a result of a WGLC/IETF LC comment. Or that comments that would require new functionality can be rejected by the I-D's authors alone. Nico -- From nobody Fri Jan 31 18:12:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB001120045 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eT2EE8siyD90 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EB28120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd42.google.com with SMTP id k24so10475420ioc.4 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tFdYPeyNgxS9LjeQ0K/RjMUW/nevGE+jwBDLdWMkvq4=; b=i5NndRdPC1697M2ywLuNClREJaTqwmQUvoXO1s7x3lti9pjQeAV1h6UrJ3myBWaFTY mkeid17Ps15UbELx5LOMCbdlPA6aYVsdJ7z0EtGqTkRd3RYaE/LPeDPnMUArgHLla0J4 ha8doub2cKogcZJcbVYJmpnjZ889gHzBVdei4Drs65G8wr/fTgPsbNF3U56WWebbr5oK SlknrR5z7k9YA4WqXKOf9KQET7Uq5r+XOLLOycSHWuvSbLkJ9h4rK4d4SwRTTQOHfzgd 38smHvn6nUtKxHtIwcxXazFsDQP1dVdrtfqWFuL/1YDYYHi7AvggRR2J4EQ7tKaLJe8d PFxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tFdYPeyNgxS9LjeQ0K/RjMUW/nevGE+jwBDLdWMkvq4=; b=ZPX/vii9st8Nxktknsioy8oDnPb7FC1bRvWa6FRylnnzJpCJ6EOuO0LlxXU4a5sVhV KmsdczHjITG0P1E4+o3FeRW+WeeQMqk8CSs8auEMoeZBLOwbjySzOCAbBHVf0W/ELftq BdNR68JAKmpJtTyOZ5D3IG5DsF4Ito6y5TVkAeSU0QdUfJwP9DrCDEVYSuMR3zCarYq3 m59lCPmY+3E9eKZJ1TAMz5/WPtVm529oOhYUhgiZNmWAqhmTnO81JifnGyQ79iwKirJk X8LTGoaurCaw+ATbGzv8Yj6mq2kxb0c4y+WO0qn+/hqTPIYYJkzQqEQo7esZUt1c1x1f 5Rsg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUoc7sTdwb1UFe+IuHKNvqt2MPGGx2Lji8Lzf4XYdMVHwdWq2Pk Fgt1SCw0eZHC18hBYM/tpRzzlPkRi6Rx2ylua+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyVMNwCDFLyUGgtLKMwdgYWRNMd7vc4B/YqucIscjXx+ujVZVHAMlzGmoFpjtyxZiyCI1vE5wAioaMg9FD3N0I= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6103:: with SMTP id v3mr11195848iob.49.1580523158508; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <20200201012302.GC18021@localhost> <20200201020725.GF18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20200201020725.GF18021@localhost> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:12:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Cc: Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c18cc059d7a397e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:12:41 -0000 --0000000000006c18cc059d7a397e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:07 PM Nico Williams wrote: > > A substantive issue was raised. Until that is disposed of through > normal consensus-finding mechanisms, there is no consensus for the I-D > to progress. That's how the process works. > Explain your reasoning. thanks, Rob --0000000000006c18cc059d7a397e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:07 PM Nico Will= iams <nico@cryptonector.com= > wrote:

A substantive issue was raised.=C2=A0 Until that is disposed of through
normal consensus-finding mechanisms, there is no consensus for the I-D
to progress.=C2=A0 That's how the process works.
<= br>
Explain your reasoning.

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
--0000000000006c18cc059d7a397e-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 18:13:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAE51200F1 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IhTcWbISsS3J for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2862B1200DB for ; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYhDkK6Vy9CWNZPQ0DG7qNb6aWWw83Azh" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:13:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --zYhDkK6Vy9CWNZPQ0DG7qNb6aWWw83Azh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LWFPGoMeGcpd3k7Fz9CQekWb2wLEtcGfd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: IETF TLS WG Message-ID: <9e4ada20-680e-6fa7-f8bb-e94c26440d82@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> --LWFPGoMeGcpd3k7Fz9CQekWb2wLEtcGfd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D1D91BE70033373A6F87DEB6" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1D91BE70033373A6F87DEB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, I have no particular position about this draft but am curious about 2 things: #1 I don't get why it's not possible for postfix to determine the best way to manage tickets based on the destination port to which the ClientHello is sent. I totally get why that won't solve 100% of cases, but it would surely solve a huge percentage? Apologies if an answer was already posted as part of this v. long thread. #2 I don't get why Viktor's request for special handling for value 255 is a real problem for anyone. We have another thread today envisaging 2040 extensions flags, so I really have a hard time seeing what here justifies rejecting Viktor's argument. FWIW, this thread has not provided me with an obvious answer to #2 other than "not- invented-here." I'm not sure that declaring things in the rough where the only identifiable issue is NIH is the overall best outcome, longer term. Cheers, S. --------------D1D91BE70033373A6F87DEB6 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9t lyWxn5XiHzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQAB 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SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xfrIe51kKtgP for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-f54.google.com (mail-ua1-f54.google.com [209.85.222.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B355120024 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 1so3341073uao.1 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:20:00 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gryNIaOLIvoSdlOV1DleuWdc0XC8dGc9q1rRzbRvAQ8=; b=DH0n+q4gOCtpKA27K31AVTv3HJ4mDp1cDUlu9hx+k0ldvP+5/Q7lkyrrPTJmk7RDPx 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<20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> <9e4ada20-680e-6fa7-f8bb-e94c26440d82@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <9e4ada20-680e-6fa7-f8bb-e94c26440d82@cs.tcd.ie> From: Daniel Migault Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:19:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Stephen Farrell Cc: IETF TLS WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8824c059d7a53d1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:20:02 -0000 --000000000000b8824c059d7a53d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 9:14 PM Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hiya, > > I have no particular position about this draft but > am curious about 2 things: > > #1 I don't get why it's not possible for postfix to > determine the best way to manage tickets based on the > destination port to which the ClientHello is sent. I > totally get why that won't solve 100% of cases, but it > would surely solve a huge percentage? Apologies if an > answer was already posted as part of this v. long > thread. > > #2 I don't get why Viktor's request for special handling > for value 255 is a real problem for anyone. We have > another thread today envisaging 2040 extensions flags, > so I really have a hard time seeing what here justifies > rejecting Viktor's argument. FWIW, this thread has not > provided me with an obvious answer to #2 other than "not- > invented-here." I'm not sure that declaring things in the > rough where the only identifiable issue is NIH is the > overall best outcome, longer term. > + 1 I have not seen any technical answer either for not considering this mechanism. > > Cheers, > S. > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > --000000000000b8824c059d7a53d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 9:14 PM Steph= en Farrell <stephen.farrell= @cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hiya,

I have no particular position about this draft but
am curious about 2 things:

#1 I don't get why it's not possible for postfix to
determine the best way to manage tickets based on the
destination port to which the ClientHello is sent. I
totally get why that won't solve 100% of cases, but it
would surely solve a huge percentage? Apologies if an
answer was already posted as part of this v. long
thread.

#2 I don't get why Viktor's request for special handling
for value 255 is a real problem for anyone. We have
another thread today envisaging 2040 extensions flags,
so I really have a hard time seeing what here justifies
rejecting Viktor's argument. FWIW, this thread has not
provided me with an obvious answer to #2 other than "not-
invented-here." I'm not sure that declaring things in the
rough where the only identifiable issue is NIH is the
overall best outcome, longer term.
=C2=A0
+ = 1 I have not seen any technical answer either for not considering this mech= anism.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Cheers,
S.

_______________________________________________
TLS mailing list
TLS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
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draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:25:52 -0000 --0000000000009b6cda059d7a6826 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:21 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > > > - If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last > call, it can be indefinitely postponed. > > > > No, the WG can get consensus on not expanding scope. > That's true, but there's no need to stop if the expanded scope doesn't have consensus. > It=E2=80=99s not great that this came up with WGLC, but several folks in = the WG > now recognize that this is an important use-case and feel it=E2=80=99s in= -scope. > Not sure "several" is the correct term. There are some mailing list messages about the topic. thanks, Rob --0000000000009b6cda059d7a6826 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:21 PM Salz, Ric= h <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

  • If the scope of a document can be continually expanded during last= call, it can be indefinitely postponed.

=C2=A0

No, the WG can get consensus on not expanding scope.=


That's true, but= there's no need to stop if the expanded scope doesn't have consens= us.

=C2=A0

It=E2=80=99s not great that this came up with WGLC, = but several folks in the WG now recognize that this is an important use-cas= e and feel it=E2=80=99s in-scope.

Not sure "several" is the correct term. There are so= me mailing list messages about the topic.

than= ks,
Rob

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Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:30:47 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Rob Sayre CC: Nico Williams , Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests Thread-Index: AQHV0BhBnGnnVzdCKkiiYDxEPh1X6qf08giAgAAzNYCAABhpgIAAMMaAgAJU6YCAAASuAIAAEWyAgACix4CAAAwggIAAVICAgAAemICAABjdgIAMUNAAgAByYYCAABF5gIAAA60AgAABOgD//75wAIAAVR0A//+tn4A= Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 02:30:47 +0000 Message-ID: <7AAEE7D7-5FB1-40EE-9A92-C36D526D3ABB@akamai.com> References: <20200123021455.GA73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <87427017-551e-4633-a0d3-75f378879aa9@redhat.com> <20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.112.251] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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<20200123124055.GF73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <7AAEE7D7-5FB1-40EE-9A92-C36D526D3ABB@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <7AAEE7D7-5FB1-40EE-9A92-C36D526D3ABB@akamai.com> From: Rob Sayre Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 18:36:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Nico Williams , Tommy Pauly , "TLS@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a228c059d7a9021" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 02:37:04 -0000 --0000000000009a228c059d7a9021 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:30 PM Salz, Rich wrote: > *>*Not sure "several" is the correct term. There are some mailing list > messages about the topic. > > > > A few people who are heavily involved in this WG have agreed this is an > issue, and a few people aren=E2=80=99t. Shrug. As Nico said, time for a= consensus > call or more likely a discussion in Vancouver. > Sounds important. > I think I=E2=80=99m done adding useful content to this thread. > Agree. thanks, Rob --0000000000009a228c059d7a9021 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 6:30 PM Salz, Ric= h <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

>Not= sure "several" is the correct term. There are some mailing list = messages about the topic.

=C2=A0

A few people who are heavily involved in this WG hav= e agreed this is an issue, and a few people aren=E2=80=99t.=C2=A0 Shrug.=C2= =A0 As Nico said, time for a consensus call or more likely a discussion in = Vancouver.=C2=A0


Sou= nds important.

=C2=A0

I think I=E2=80=99m= done adding useful content to this thread.


Agree.<= /div>

thanks,
Rob
=C2=A0
=
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autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kGfdX8vvj2Lf for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from straasha.imrryr.org (straasha.imrryr.org [100.2.39.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0429120018 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by straasha.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F195336E82; Sat, 1 Feb 2020 00:31:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 00:31:12 -0500 From: Viktor Dukhovni To: tls@ietf.org Message-ID: <20200201053112.GE49778@straasha.imrryr.org> Reply-To: tls@ietf.org References: <20200123193250.GD12073@localhost> <20200123210151.GG73491@straasha.imrryr.org> <5F5F670C-A0BD-4F38-BEFF-192C171EDAC1@apple.com> <20200131235533.GA18021@localhost> <20200201011115.GB18021@localhost> <4E7DC6E9-A04E-4016-A12A-CFC723E18219@dukhovni.org> <5E66E815-E649-4EE5-9780-AA2158F81744@apple.com> <9e4ada20-680e-6fa7-f8bb-e94c26440d82@cs.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9e4ada20-680e-6fa7-f8bb-e94c26440d82@cs.tcd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [TLS] WGLC for draft-ietf-tls-ticketrequests X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Feb 2020 05:31:16 -0000 On Sat, Feb 01, 2020 at 02:13:37AM +0000, Stephen Farrell wrote: > #1 I don't get why it's not possible for Postfix to determine the best > way to manage tickets based on the destination port to which the > ClientHello is sent. I totally get why that won't solve 100% of > cases, but it would surely solve a huge percentage? Apologies if an > answer was already posted as part of this v. long thread. The Postfix SMTP server does not actually create the listener socket, and may not even be getting the traffic directly from the network (e.g. haproxy, postscreen, DNAT, ...). Such a heuristic would require action from the server administrator to configure appropriate policy for each non-default instance of an SMTP service, and would then still yield only approximately correct results. SMTP relays aren't always on port 25, and services that are dedicated MSAs are sometimes in fact on port 25. Also, though I wish other MTAs that support TLS resumption would also reuse tickets, avoiding waste. I don't know what TLS stacks they use, and whether they need or don't need fresh tickets. And coversely not every server Postfix connects to is also Postfix, and those may have a different default behaviour. So I'm looking for a mechanism (absolutely trivial per #2 below) to allow the client to signal to the server its ticket-use preference so that the server can vend the right number of tickets (which is the scope of this extension). > #2 I don't get why Viktor's request for special handling for value 255 > is a real problem for anyone. We have another thread today > envisaging 2040 extensions flags, so I really have a hard time > seeing what here justifies rejecting Viktor's argument. FWIW, this > thread has not provided me with an obvious answer to #2 other than > "not- invented-here." I'm not sure that declaring things in the > rough where the only identifiable issue is NIH is the overall best > outcome, longer term. I am also puzzled by the reticence to make the trivial change that makes the mechanism more expressive at negligible cost, and move on. That too advances the draft. I want to see this draft move forward, that's why I am bothering to try and make it cover the missing piece of the puzzle. There is NO obligation on either party to enable reuse even if the client sends the "as necessary" sentinel (0). The server can just vend 1 new ticket in that case, and the client would need to assume the previous one invalid and use the new one for the next connection. The proposal does not change the security posture of any systems that don't want to support reuse. Also the draft as written does not prevent consenting peers from doing reuse, it just fails to provide them with a simple mechanism to negotiate a mutually compatible policy. When the two ends make differt assumptions you get either waste or insufficient tickets to meet the client's needs. Let's make a small change to the code points to enable more precise negotiation and move on... -- Viktor.