From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 01 08:13:51 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FweM6-0003Uf-BT; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 08:13:46 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FweM4-0003UL-8Y; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 08:13:44 -0400 Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FweM3-0003NP-2T; Sat, 01 Jul 2006 08:13:44 -0400 Received: from bright.research.att.com (bright.research.att.com [135.207.20.189]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C018658; Sat, 1 Jul 2006 08:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by bright.research.att.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.10/Submit) id k61CDgOF026315; Sat, 1 Jul 2006 08:13:42 -0400 From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: Jari Arkko Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 08:13:42 -0400 Versions: dmail (linux) 2.7/makemail 2.14 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: john.loughney@nokia.com, wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >But I can't find the last page requirement >that Donald reported of from the guidelines. >Perhaps this is a bug. 1id-guidelines says that the boilerplate in question needs to appear "near the end". I think it is probably a bug introduced when translating from prose to program. >Anyway, I do not believe we have a satisfactory solution >until there's real-time feedback that you can or can not >submit this draft because of . Yes, the draft submission toolset will improve the feedback cycle. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 05:56:27 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxLAG-0005Qw-2V; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:56:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxLAE-0005Qo-TA; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:56:22 -0400 Received: from mtagate6.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.155]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxLAD-0002hx-GN; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:56:22 -0400 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate6.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k639uKpG073586 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:56:20 GMT Received: from d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.212]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k639x0sG074406 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:59:00 +0200 Received: from d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k639uJ2d002089; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:56:19 +0200 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d12av01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k639uJMA002075; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:56:19 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-217-210.de.ibm.com [9.146.217.210]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA32438; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:56:18 +0200 Message-ID: <44A8E9C1.7050006@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:56:17 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juergen Quittek References: <44A4AC47.4040105@piuha.net> <22FAF799A3A94B96D08BE375@753F3B888A9969457862729D> In-Reply-To: <22FAF799A3A94B96D08BE375@753F3B888A9969457862729D> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , IETF TOOLS discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Juergen Quittek wrote: > --On 30 June 2006 7:44 h +0300 Jari Arkko wrote: > >> >> Folks, >> >> I feel your pain about the submission problems. The current situation >> is indeed bad. I can not estimate how frequent the problem is, I think >> we are still talking about isolated cases, but if you are hit with this >> problem it typically happens at the worst time and can disrupt your >> work. > > > I know about similar cases in other WGs with the nits check passed but the > submission failed. > > Does the secretariat maintain statistics on the I-D rejection rate? No idea, and I don't think we should ask them to do so for the remaining lifetime of manual handling, but it *would* be nice if the future tool keeps statistics. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 07:10:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxMJm-00009z-P7; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:10:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxMJm-00009q-0R; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 07:10:18 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxLa3-00053O-Lc; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:23:03 -0400 Received: from mtagate1.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.134]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxL8e-0001oG-Rd; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 05:54:46 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate1.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k639shAI041068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:54:43 GMT Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.212]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k639u96D144174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:56:09 +0100 Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k639shMw028352; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:54:43 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k639sgLc028341; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 10:54:42 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-217-210.de.ibm.com [9.146.217.210]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA55092; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:54:41 +0200 Message-ID: <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:54:41 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Bill Fenner wrote: >>But I can't find the last page requirement >>that Donald reported of from the guidelines. >>Perhaps this is a bug. > > > 1id-guidelines says that the boilerplate in question needs to appear > "near the end". I think it is probably a bug introduced when translating > from prose to program. Indeed, and wouldn't a protocol spec that said "the foobar field needs to appear near the end of the packet" attract a fairly strong DISCUSS from one AD or another? Brian >>Anyway, I do not believe we have a satisfactory solution >>until there's real-time feedback that you can or can not >>submit this draft because of . > > > Yes, the draft submission toolset will improve the feedback > cycle. > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 08:27:06 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxNW4-0006TX-4i; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:27:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fx3ST-0007LH-RB; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:02:01 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fx3SR-0003Pq-Hw; Sun, 02 Jul 2006 11:02:01 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.129] (HSI-KBW-085-216-002-068.hsi.kabelbw.de [85.216.2.68]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8553F1BAC4D; Sun, 2 Jul 2006 16:48:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 14:37:13 +0200 From: Juergen Quittek To: Jari Arkko Message-ID: <22FAF799A3A94B96D08BE375@753F3B888A9969457862729D> In-Reply-To: <44A4AC47.4040105@piuha.net> References: <44A4AC47.4040105@piuha.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:27:03 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, IETF TOOLS discussion Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --On 30 June 2006 7:44 h +0300 Jari Arkko wrote: > > Folks, > > I feel your pain about the submission problems. The current situation > is indeed bad. I can not estimate how frequent the problem is, I think > we are still talking about isolated cases, but if you are hit with this > problem it typically happens at the worst time and can disrupt your > work. I know about similar cases in other WGs with the nits check passed but the submission failed. Does the secretariat maintain statistics on the I-D rejection rate? Juergen _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 09:30:20 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOVG-0000JX-9O; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:30:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOVF-0000JP-0D; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:30:17 -0400 Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOVB-00032h-PY; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:30:16 -0400 Received: from bright.research.att.com (bright.research.att.com [135.207.20.189]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F148600; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by bright.research.att.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.10/Submit) id k63DUDds019649; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:30:13 -0400 From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:30:12 -0400 Versions: dmail (linux) 2.7/makemail 2.14 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >Indeed, and wouldn't a protocol spec that said >"the foobar field needs to appear near the end of the packet" >attract a fairly strong DISCUSS from one AD or another? Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, instead of made more strict)? Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 09:41:51 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOgQ-00035t-Hr; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:41:50 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOgO-00035i-Qj for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:41:48 -0400 Received: from av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOgN-0003qV-Cr for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:41:48 -0400 Received: by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 9DF9838355; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 15:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.93]) by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A4438348; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 15:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3B537E42; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 15:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxOgH-0003Fa-BT; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:41:43 +0200 Message-ID: <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 15:41:38 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> In-Reply-To: <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0467602236==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============0467602236== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig6FB6E8FB0F4944DF6CA306DB" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6FB6E8FB0F4944DF6CA306DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on 2006-07-03 15:30 Bill Fenner said the following: >=20 > Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. > Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur > exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that > it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document > somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, > instead of made more strict)? I agree: I'd also prefer to see our rules become fewer and less strict rather than the opposite; and especially when the rules seem arbitrary. I can imagine that if one has to have certain boilerplate text in the document for legal reasons, it is preferable to have it at the end rather than filling several of the first pages, but that still seems like something we can leave to common sense, rather than define rules for. Henrik --------------enig6FB6E8FB0F4944DF6CA306DB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFEqR6SeVhrtTJkXCMRAgA1AKCJ00AZGiGouVAPRGw/VB0lQ28U6gCcD5y3 GSvG1vN10j4AEkEyBjalZt8= =wb9Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6FB6E8FB0F4944DF6CA306DB-- --===============0467602236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============0467602236==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 10:56:15 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxPqR-0001N0-1S; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:56:15 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxPqP-0001Mr-Ec; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:56:13 -0400 Received: from mtagate1.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.150]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxPqN-0003Et-Vt; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 10:56:13 -0400 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate1.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k63EuA16140518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 14:56:11 GMT Received: from d12av03.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av03.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.213]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k63EwoQh141686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:58:50 +0200 Received: from d12av03.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av03.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k63Eu93N016663; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:56:09 +0200 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d12av03.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k63Eu9XL016647; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:56:09 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-217-210.de.ibm.com [9.146.217.210]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA46760; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 16:56:05 +0200 Message-ID: <44A93002.4060602@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 16:56:02 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> In-Reply-To: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: Bill Fenner , wgchairs@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Eric, Moving the boilerplate out is indeed under discussion in the IPR WG - this has several advantages, but it does require a formal update to RFC 3978 unfortunately. Bill, I think it's reasonable to have "near the end" as a cosmetic guideline, but making it a formal requirement does seem over the top. You'll understand that with this being a holiday week in the US and next week being the IETF, this isn't going to get followed up right away. Brian Eric Rescorla wrote: > Bill Fenner writes: > > >>>Indeed, and wouldn't a protocol spec that said >>>"the foobar field needs to appear near the end of the packet" >>>attract a fairly strong DISCUSS from one AD or another? >> >>Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. >>Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur >>exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that >>it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document >>somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, >>instead of made more strict)? > > > Indeed. > > I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far > as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is > for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance > of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need > to be in the document proper, it just needs to be > agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to > have a web submission form where people agreed to these > terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo > complaints about web-only submission). > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 11:17:25 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQAt-0006Tk-Vk; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:17:23 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQAs-0006TR-Og for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:17:22 -0400 Received: from omr5.networksolutionsemail.com ([205.178.146.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQAr-00058l-Gp for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:17:22 -0400 Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr5.mgt.netsol.com [10.49.6.68]) by omr5.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k63FHHIm004162 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:17:21 -0400 Received: (qmail 9654 invoked by uid 78); 3 Jul 2006 15:17:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.12?) (andy@andybierman.com@24.24.133.237) by 10.49.36.68 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2006 15:17:17 -0000 Message-ID: <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:16:25 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Bill Fenner , wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > on 2006-07-03 15:30 Bill Fenner said the following: >> Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. >> Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur >> exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that >> it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document >> somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, >> instead of made more strict)? > > I agree: I'd also prefer to see our rules become fewer and less > strict rather than the opposite; and especially when the rules seem > arbitrary. Thank you! I suspect there is no way to answer Juergen's question about how all these (not well understood) rules, just to submit a work-in-progress for publication, actually improve Internet standards quality. We need the IETF to protect the world from bad protocol design, not improper pagination. Please don't forget that. > > I can imagine that if one has to have certain boilerplate text > in the document for legal reasons, it is preferable to have it at > the end rather than filling several of the first pages, but that > still seems like something we can leave to common sense, rather > than define rules for. > > > Henrik > Andy _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 11:50:59 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQhO-00065u-JI; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:50:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQhM-00065a-QZ for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:50:56 -0400 Received: from omr1.networksolutionsemail.com ([205.178.146.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQhL-00077E-JL for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 11:50:56 -0400 Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr1.mgt.hosting.dc2.netsol.com [10.49.6.64]) by omr1.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k63FotQp009653 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:50:55 -0400 Received: (qmail 21426 invoked by uid 78); 3 Jul 2006 15:50:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.12?) (andy@andybierman.com@24.24.133.237) by 10.49.36.64 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2006 15:50:55 -0000 Message-ID: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:49:58 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> In-Reply-To: <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I think the submission tool and submission process needs to be changed: 1) All of the document checks done by the submission tool must be documented in detail, and prioritized as either a fatal error or some warning level. (IMO, there should be very few fatal errors defined other than IPR boilerplate.) 2) For I-Ds that are considered 'work-in-progress', only fatal errors will cause an I-D submission to be rejected. Warnings should be returned to the user in an email, along with the ACK that the I-D was received. The ID submission tool could even get the work-in-progress status (i.e., before draft is submitted to the IESG) from the ID-Tracker so a special submit option may not even be needed. I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's not gonna happen here ;-) Andy _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 12:03:39 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQtf-0008OA-ET; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:03:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQte-0008Nu-0P; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:03:38 -0400 Received: from p130.piuha.net ([193.234.218.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxQtc-0007ur-Gl; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:03:37 -0400 Received: from p130.piuha.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145FA898B9; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:03:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B440D898B8; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 19:03:34 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <44A93FD3.3090901@piuha.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 19:03:31 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.8 (X11/20060502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Bierman Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> In-Reply-To: <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Henrik Levkowetz , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Andy, > I suspect there is no way to answer Juergen's question about > how all these (not well understood) rules, just to > submit a work-in-progress for publication, actually improve > Internet standards quality. I hate bureacratic rules too. And I agree with all that has been said about reducing the rules, announcing new rules if we really need them, and getting real-time feedback at submission time. But let me nevertheless attempt to justify why some rules are needed. There are some legal reasons why a boilerplate (or a web-submission confirmation page) is needed, I think we all have to accept that. There are also some rules that come from the tracker; a draft needs to have a filename, for instance, and that name has to satisfy some requirements that the currently used system has. So, the set of mandatory requirements is not very big, but there are some. As far as I know, we are not bouncing draft because of long lines, for instance. Also, its a great thing that we have at least partial automation of the process. Remember the old times when it took a long time to publish a draft, particularly at busy times? From what I can see, its most of the time same day service now. In any case, I have a concrete suggestion for next steps: Let Bill (e.g.) update his guidelines and talk to the secretariat about the last page bug. Then those of us who feel that we need a better boilerplate scheme (e.g. just confirmation), lets go to the IPR WG and make ourselves heard and/or understand if this is possible. Finally, I think we should avoid investing too much in the improvement of the current system. The I-D submission tool is already a high priority work item at the secretariat. Lets focus on getting that done. --Jari _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 12:39:59 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRSp-0000jq-KJ; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:39:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRSo-0000jQ-77 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:39:58 -0400 Received: from omr2.networksolutionsemail.com ([205.178.146.52]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRSj-0002vm-Vj for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:39:58 -0400 Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr2.mgt.netsol.com [10.49.6.65]) by omr2.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k63Gdo3H016456 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:39:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 22331 invoked by uid 78); 3 Jul 2006 16:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.12?) (andy@andybierman.com@24.24.133.237) by 10.49.36.65 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2006 16:39:47 -0000 Message-ID: <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:38:42 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> In-Reply-To: <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Eric Rescorla wrote: > Andy Bierman writes: >> I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle >> because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens >> of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's >> not gonna happen here ;-) > > Two thoughts: Final thought (and then I'll leave it alone): Almost all of you are completely missing my point that all this energy spent on defining, automating, and adhering to a never-ending list of documentation rules is not helping the IETF achieve its primary mission. In fact, it is having the opposite effect. Andy > > 1. Can someone who knows explain which of the tests the secretariat > applies are automated and which are not? Just thinking that > most of the complaints I'm hearing here are about people worried > about missing the deadline. If you got an immediate automated > "your draft is broken" response, then this would be less of a > concern. > > 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict > submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you > submit before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious > way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the > organizers contact you for a new version rather than just > rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt > to follow the submission guidelines. > > I'm not entirely sure what the secretariat policy is here, but > it appears that we could follow a similar rule: if your draft > passes some set of things in the latest version of id-nits, then > you have a safe harbor and can correct it rather than having it > rejected. > > -Ekr > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 03 12:56:35 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRis-0007Fb-J6; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:56:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRir-0007FT-2a; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:56:33 -0400 Received: from av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRio-0003Pq-Ix; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:56:33 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5FAD4381C7; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 18:30:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E49137F88; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 18:30:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C7537E44; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 18:56:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxRij-0006EH-6r; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 18:56:28 +0200 Message-ID: <44A94C36.5030907@levkowetz.com> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 18:56:22 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Bierman Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> In-Reply-To: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Andy, on 2006-07-03 17:49 Andy Bierman said the following: > Hi, > > I think the submission tool and submission process needs > to be changed: > > 1) All of the document checks done by the submission tool > must be documented in detail, and prioritized as either > a fatal error or some warning level. (IMO, there should > be very few fatal errors defined other than IPR boilerplate.) > > 2) For I-Ds that are considered 'work-in-progress', only fatal > errors will cause an I-D submission to be rejected. Warnings > should be returned to the user in an email, along with the > ACK that the I-D was received. This pretty much matches the approach described in RFC 4228, which is the requirements document for the automated draft submission tool which is intended to replace the current manual/semi-automated process. For more details regarding this, please check RFC 4228 and comment to the tools-discuss list if there is anything you think we've missed there. > The ID submission tool could even get the work-in-progress status > (i.e., before draft is submitted to the IESG) from the ID-Tracker > so a special submit option may not even be needed. Yes. More details in 4228. > I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle > because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens > of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's > not gonna happen here ;-) I think there are good reasons for some rules, and I think the rules we have are fairly well adapted to the different stages in a document's life cycle. The crucial issue is to not have surprises just before the submission deadline. Both the any-id submission rules (http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.txt) and the publication submission rules (http://www.ietf.org/ID-Checklist.html) are reasonably good in explaining the reason for the various rules, I think. Where I have hope for improvements in the rules are in the amount of boilerplate in each document, which, as Brian mentioned, ipr-wg is looking at. Where I have hope for improvements in the application of the rules is through the implementation of 4228, which the IAD is engaged in making happen - I don't know exactly what the schedule looks like for that work, but expect that we'll get an update on this during the coming meeting. The only thing I'd mention as desirable in the meantime is that any changes in the manual application of the existing rules be announced by the secretariat, and if such changes are necessary they should be made early in the inter-meeting period rather than close to the submission deadline. Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 03:47:04 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxfce-00033q-KZ; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:47:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxfcc-0002zl-OL; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:47:02 -0400 Received: from mtagate4.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.137]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxfUL-0004hI-Qg; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:38:31 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate4.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k647cSQk179958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 07:38:28 GMT Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.216]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k647dtZZ132140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:39:55 +0100 Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k647cSmv023189; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:38:28 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k647cRSq023180; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:38:28 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-221-83.de.ibm.com [9.146.221.83]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11474; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:38:27 +0200 Message-ID: <44AA1AF2.6090101@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 09:38:26 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> In-Reply-To: <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >> 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict >> submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you submit >> before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious >> way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the >> organizers contact you for a new version rather than just >> rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt >> to follow the submission guidelines. This is what happens, and this is why you still see a few drafts coming out this week. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 05:18:23 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxh30-00005B-Ji; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:18:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxgvH-0007iv-PT; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:10:23 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxfZd-00050B-Tz; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:43:57 -0400 Received: from mtagate3.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.136]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxfSO-0000ci-JP; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 03:36:29 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate3.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k647aRVY157296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:36:27 +0100 Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.228]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k647briE112626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:37:53 +0100 Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k647aQdF025197; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:36:26 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k647aQAF025187; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:36:26 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-221-83.de.ibm.com [9.146.221.83]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA68190; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:36:25 +0200 Message-ID: <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 09:36:24 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> In-Reply-To: <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Andy Bierman , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Once again, there is going to be a new tool based on RFC 4228. There isn't going to be any work done on the existing tools that support the old manual submission process. People will have to see whether the new tool, when it comes, fixes all these concerns - and if it doesn't, then there will be a need for tuning. Brian Eric Rescorla wrote: > Andy Bierman writes: > >>I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle >>because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens >>of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's >>not gonna happen here ;-) > > > Two thoughts: > > 1. Can someone who knows explain which of the tests the secretariat > applies are automated and which are not? Just thinking that > most of the complaints I'm hearing here are about people worried > about missing the deadline. If you got an immediate automated > "your draft is broken" response, then this would be less of a > concern. > > 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict > submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you > submit before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious > way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the > organizers contact you for a new version rather than just > rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt > to follow the submission guidelines. > > I'm not entirely sure what the secretariat policy is here, but > it appears that we could follow a similar rule: if your draft > passes some set of things in the latest version of id-nits, then > you have a safe harbor and can correct it rather than having it > rejected. > > -Ekr > > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 06:49:07 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxiSl-0007gg-Cs; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:49:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxiSk-0007gY-0Q; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:49:02 -0400 Received: from av9-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.185]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxiSi-0004Eg-HU; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:49:01 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id A94FD37E66; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av9-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A9C37E66; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:48:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A56737E4A; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:48:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FxiSZ-0005tE-B2; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:48:56 +0200 Message-ID: <44AA4790.5050000@levkowetz.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:48:48 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes[Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <44A94C36.5030907@levkowetz.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060704115549.05c7da50@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704115549.05c7da50@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Andy Bierman , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Martin, on 2006-07-04 05:04 Martin Duerst said the following: > At 01:56 06/07/04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > >>For more details regarding this, please check RFC 4228 and comment >>to the tools-discuss list if there is anything you think we've missed >>there. > > Just a few more ideas (probably somebody already has had these): > > > > 1. One thing that crossed my mind is that it would be a bad idea to have > an idnits tool as well as a submission tool. Make it one tool, with a > selection of "actual submission" or "check only". That way, tool > differences are eliminated by design. If you read 4228 you'll find this covered already. There is also a requirement which says that the component which does the checking should be a publicly available tool, such as idnits. It is not required that idnits specifically be used, but if some other checking tool is used as part of the submission tool, it must also be made publicly available separately from the submission tool. The secretariat have already indicated a wish to use idnits for the checking part, and I will add the necessary functionality and switches to do only guidelines checking, nits checking or both. > 2. Another issue is the announcement of new rules. To implement a grace > period, use two (or more) versions of the actual checking routines. > Let's say there is one procedure that checks for what was the rule > at IETF65, and another for IETF66. Assuming that the rules for IETF66 > were announced at IETF65, submissions between IETF65 and IETF66 > would be first checked against IETF66 rules, and any problems > would be reported. Then, in the same turnaround, the submission > would be checked against IETF65 rules, and if it passes these, it > would be accepted with a very clear notice that this is due to > a grace period (and maybe even giving the submitter an option > to not submit but to try to catch up to the new rules). Sounds like a possibility. When we transitioned to 3978, I implemented something very similar in idnits, providing warnings for a time, and then errors for 3978 non-compliance. This was governed by the policy set for the secretariat's application of 3978. When the RFC was published, I implemented the warnings (version 1.63); when the deadline published for the strict application went into effect, I changed these to errors (version 1.71). > Given all the recent complaints, 1. seems to be a no-brainer. And already covered in 4228 :-) > 2. in my opinion would also be great, and not too difficult > to implement in terms of software, but it requires more effort > for the announcements,... Yes. Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 08:15:53 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxjoj-0005ku-Cg; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 08:15:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxjoh-0005kU-HR; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 08:15:47 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxjoh-0003Lg-Fo; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 08:15:47 -0400 Received: from mtagate2.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.135]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fxjna-00052t-Uu; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 08:14:40 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate2.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k64CEaXG069288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 12:14:36 GMT Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.212]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k64CG2f2140754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:16:02 +0100 Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k64CEZ2S006330; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:14:35 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k64CEZlh006305; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 13:14:35 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-221-83.de.ibm.com [9.146.221.83]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA57020; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:14:33 +0200 Message-ID: <44AA5BA7.4040209@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 14:14:31 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes[Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120647.071327c0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120647.071327c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Andy Bierman , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > At 00:49 06/07/04, Andy Bierman wrote: > > >>The ID submission tool could even get the work-in-progress status >>(i.e., before draft is submitted to the IESG) from the ID-Tracker >>so a special submit option may not even be needed. > > > That wouldn't work for the draft that is actually going to be > submitted to the IESG, or would it? RFC 4228 distinguishes warnings from mandatory fixes; basically an IESG submission should have zero warnings, just like it should pass id-nits today. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:06:09 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxlXT-0006nA-IW; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:06:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxlXR-0006mx-KM for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:06:05 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxlXR-0006ld-Ix for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:06:05 -0400 Received: from omr5.networksolutionsemail.com ([205.178.146.55]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxlTN-0006on-Fe for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:01:57 -0400 Received: from mail.networksolutionsemail.com (ns-omr5.mgt.netsol.com [10.49.6.68]) by omr5.networksolutionsemail.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id k64E1eWg019700 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 10:01:40 -0400 Received: (qmail 18496 invoked by uid 78); 4 Jul 2006 14:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.12?) (andy@andybierman.com@24.24.133.237) by 10.49.36.68 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2006 14:01:40 -0000 Message-ID: <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 07:01:49 -0700 From: Andy Bierman User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, EKR , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Once again, there is going to be a new tool based on > RFC 4228. There isn't going to be any work done on the > existing tools that support the old manual submission process. > > People will have to see whether the new tool, when it comes, > fixes all these concerns - and if it doesn't, then there will > be a need for tuning. Bottom Line Question: Will the Boilerplate ever be done, and if so, when? (Anybody who thinks our documentation rules don't impact quality has not been asked to make clarifications to an old RFC. You either refuse to touch the RFC at all, or you spend 10X more work on Boilerplate changes than clarifications.) > > Brian Andy > > Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Andy Bierman writes: >> >>> I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle >>> because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens >>> of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's >>> not gonna happen here ;-) >> >> >> Two thoughts: >> >> 1. Can someone who knows explain which of the tests the secretariat >> applies are automated and which are not? Just thinking that >> most of the complaints I'm hearing here are about people worried >> about missing the deadline. If you got an immediate automated >> "your draft is broken" response, then this would be less of a >> concern. >> >> 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict >> submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you submit >> before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious >> way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the >> organizers contact you for a new version rather than just >> rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt >> to follow the submission guidelines. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what the secretariat policy is here, but >> it appears that we could follow a similar rule: if your draft >> passes some set of things in the latest version of id-nits, then >> you have a safe harbor and can correct it rather than having it >> rejected. >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uH-Eg; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOpR-00045u-N3; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:51:09 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOpQ-00069X-Cg; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:51:09 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C28901E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 06:51:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:51:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> (Bill Fenner's message of "Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:30:12 -0400") Message-ID: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Brian Carpenter , Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Bill Fenner writes: >>Indeed, and wouldn't a protocol spec that said >>"the foobar field needs to appear near the end of the packet" >>attract a fairly strong DISCUSS from one AD or another? > > Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. > Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur > exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that > it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document > somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, > instead of made more strict)? Indeed. I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need to be in the document proper, it just needs to be agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to have a web submission form where people agreed to these terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo complaints about web-only submission). -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uR-HS; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxR5I-0001l6-HG; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:15:40 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxR5H-0000lu-70; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:15:40 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 756201E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Andy Bierman References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:15:38 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> (Andy Bierman's message of "Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:49:58 -0700") Message-ID: <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Andy Bierman writes: > I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle > because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens > of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's > not gonna happen here ;-) Two thoughts: 1. Can someone who knows explain which of the tests the secretariat applies are automated and which are not? Just thinking that most of the complaints I'm hearing here are about people worried about missing the deadline. If you got an immediate automated "your draft is broken" response, then this would be less of a concern. 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you submit before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the organizers contact you for a new version rather than just rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt to follow the submission guidelines. I'm not entirely sure what the secretariat policy is here, but it appears that we could follow a similar rule: if your draft passes some set of things in the latest version of id-nits, then you have a safe harbor and can correct it rather than having it rejected. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007v5-Vb; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006RW-2z; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006aH-1W; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC5-0002iy-PK; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:47 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k649RSHS007706; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2613_4fe92e30_0b3f_11db_909f_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k649RFhH005573; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120647.071327c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:07:55 +0900 To: Andy Bierman , wgchairs@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes[Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) In-Reply-To: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 00:49 06/07/04, Andy Bierman wrote: >The ID submission tool could even get the work-in-progress status >(i.e., before draft is submitted to the IESG) from the ID-Tracker >so a special submit option may not even be needed. That wouldn't work for the draft that is actually going to be submitted to the IESG, or would it? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uv-RR; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC4-0006O9-Am; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:44 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhBz-0006Zm-MR; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:44 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k649Rcxv007717; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2613_557fee10_0b3f_11db_909f_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:27:37 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k649RFhJ005573; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120842.07132b70@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:10:06 +0900 To: EKR , Bill Fenner From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] In-Reply-To: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Brian Carpenter , Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 22:51 06/07/03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far >as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is >for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance >of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need >to be in the document proper, it just needs to be >agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to >have a web submission form where people agreed to these >terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo >complaints about web-only submission). It would. And it would be okay with me. But then when somebody really needs to show that there was such an agreement, it will be much more work (contacting the secretariat, finding out which boilerplate was agreed to (there is more than one), and so on). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uH-Eg; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOpR-00045u-N3; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:51:09 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxOpQ-00069X-Cg; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:51:09 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C28901E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 06:51:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 06:51:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> (Bill Fenner's message of "Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:30:12 -0400") Message-ID: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Brian Carpenter , Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Bill Fenner writes: >>Indeed, and wouldn't a protocol spec that said >>"the foobar field needs to appear near the end of the packet" >>attract a fairly strong DISCUSS from one AD or another? > > Our rules have been becoming more and more arbitrary. > Is there a particular reason that this text needs to occur > exactly on the last page? In fact, is there a reason that > it needs to occur in any place other than "in the document > somewhere" (i.e., why can't the existing guideline be lifted, > instead of made more strict)? Indeed. I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need to be in the document proper, it just needs to be agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to have a web submission form where people agreed to these terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo complaints about web-only submission). -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uR-HS; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxR5I-0001l6-HG; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:15:40 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxR5H-0000lu-70; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:15:40 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 756201E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:15:38 -0700 (PDT) To: Andy Bierman References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:15:38 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> (Andy Bierman's message of "Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:49:58 -0700") Message-ID: <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Andy Bierman writes: > I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle > because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens > of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's > not gonna happen here ;-) Two thoughts: 1. Can someone who knows explain which of the tests the secretariat applies are automated and which are not? Just thinking that most of the complaints I'm hearing here are about people worried about missing the deadline. If you got an immediate automated "your draft is broken" response, then this would be less of a concern. 2. I've been involved in a lot of conferences with fairly strict submission deadlines and it's usually understood that if you submit before the deadline but it's broken in some unobvious way (e.g., figures don't display on some printers), then the organizers contact you for a new version rather than just rejecting it, as long as it appears you made a good-faith attempt to follow the submission guidelines. I'm not entirely sure what the secretariat policy is here, but it appears that we could follow a similar rule: if your draft passes some set of things in the latest version of id-nits, then you have a safe harbor and can correct it rather than having it rejected. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007v5-Vb; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006RW-2z; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006aH-1W; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC5-0002iy-PK; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:47 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k649RSHS007706; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2613_4fe92e30_0b3f_11db_909f_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k649RFhH005573; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:26 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120647.071327c0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:07:55 +0900 To: Andy Bierman , wgchairs@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes[Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) In-Reply-To: <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 00:49 06/07/04, Andy Bierman wrote: >The ID submission tool could even get the work-in-progress status >(i.e., before draft is submitted to the IESG) from the ID-Tracker >so a special submit option may not even be needed. That wouldn't work for the draft that is actually going to be submitted to the IESG, or would it? Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007uv-RR; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC4-0006O9-Am; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:44 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhBz-0006Zm-MR; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:44 -0400 Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k649Rcxv007717; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:38 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 2613_557fee10_0b3f_11db_909f_0014221f2a2d; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:27:37 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k649RFhJ005573; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704120842.07132b70@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:10:06 +0900 To: EKR , Bill Fenner From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] In-Reply-To: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Brian Carpenter , Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 22:51 06/07/03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far >as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is >for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance >of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need >to be in the document proper, it just needs to be >agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to >have a web submission form where people agreed to these >terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo >complaints about web-only submission). It would. And it would be okay with me. But then when somebody really needs to show that there was such an agreement, it will be much more work (contacting the secretariat, finding out which boilerplate was agreed to (there is more than one), and so on). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007ul-O4; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxZrC-0001Ce-07; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:37:42 -0400 Received: from machshav.com ([147.28.0.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxZrA-00056V-O8; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:37:41 -0400 Received: from berkshire.machshav.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by machshav.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A844FB2B4; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by berkshire.machshav.com (Postfix, from userid 54047) id 7AFEA3C04BE; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:37:36 -0400 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] Message-Id: <20060703213736.0e01ab98.smb@cs.columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <44A93002.4060602@zurich.ibm.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44A93002.4060602@zurich.ibm.com> Organization: Columbia University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 2.2.6 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, jari.arkko@piuha.net, ekr@networkresonance.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 16:56:02 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Eric, > > Moving the boilerplate out is indeed under discussion in the > IPR WG - this has several advantages, but it does require > a formal update to RFC 3978 unfortunately. > That is, in fact, on the IPR agenda for next week. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007ub-Kr; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRYC-0006e3-7I; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:45:32 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRYA-00037l-Th; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:45:32 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3E84C1E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Andy Bierman References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:45:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> (Andy Bierman's message of "Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:38:42 -0700") Message-ID: <86odw6prh1.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Andy Bierman writes: > Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Andy Bierman writes: >>> I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle >>> because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens >>> of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's >>> not gonna happen here ;-) >> Two thoughts: > > Final thought (and then I'll leave it alone): > > Almost all of you are completely missing my point that all > this energy spent on defining, automating, and adhering > to a never-ending list of documentation rules is not helping > the IETF achieve its primary mission. In fact, it is > having the opposite effect. Well, I for one am not missing it. I just figure that that's a big argument and a simple fix might make most of the pain go away. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007ul-O4; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxZrC-0001Ce-07; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:37:42 -0400 Received: from machshav.com ([147.28.0.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxZrA-00056V-O8; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 21:37:41 -0400 Received: from berkshire.machshav.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by machshav.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A844FB2B4; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:37:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by berkshire.machshav.com (Postfix, from userid 54047) id 7AFEA3C04BE; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 21:37:36 -0400 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] Message-Id: <20060703213736.0e01ab98.smb@cs.columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <44A93002.4060602@zurich.ibm.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44A93002.4060602@zurich.ibm.com> Organization: Columbia University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 2.2.6 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, jari.arkko@piuha.net, ekr@networkresonance.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 16:56:02 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Eric, > > Moving the boilerplate out is indeed under discussion in the > IPR WG - this has several advantages, but it does require > a formal update to RFC 3978 unfortunately. > That is, in fact, on the IPR agenda for next week. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFD-0007ub-Kr; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRYC-0006e3-7I; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:45:32 -0400 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxRYA-00037l-Th; Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:45:32 -0400 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3E84C1E8C1C; Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:45:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Andy Bierman References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:45:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44A94812.9070104@andybierman.com> (Andy Bierman's message of "Mon, 03 Jul 2006 09:38:42 -0700") Message-ID: <86odw6prh1.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Andy Bierman writes: > Eric Rescorla wrote: >> Andy Bierman writes: >>> I would prefer that a WG not miss a I-D submission cycle >>> because a document had some lines over 72 chars, or any of dozens >>> of other ID-nits. (I would prefer no CLRs at all, but that's >>> not gonna happen here ;-) >> Two thoughts: > > Final thought (and then I'll leave it alone): > > Almost all of you are completely missing my point that all > this energy spent on defining, automating, and adhering > to a never-ending list of documentation rules is not helping > the IETF achieve its primary mission. In fact, it is > having the opposite effect. Well, I for one am not missing it. I just figure that that's a big argument and a simple fix might make most of the pain go away. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 10:51:21 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmFE-0007vq-5d; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006Rj-Sg; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC8-0006aK-Qf; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxhC5-0002j0-PK; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 05:27:48 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k649RQC5007702; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:28 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6822_4e4b25ce_0b3f_11db_884a_0014221fa3c9; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:27:25 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k649RFhF005573; Tue, 4 Jul 2006 18:27:23 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060704115549.05c7da50@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 12:04:24 +0900 To: Henrik Levkowetz , Andy Bierman From: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: Submit Tool Change Request (was Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes[Re: advice on role of a WG Chair]) In-Reply-To: <44A94C36.5030907@levkowetz.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <44A94C36.5030907@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:51:17 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 01:56 06/07/04, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >For more details regarding this, please check RFC 4228 and comment >to the tools-discuss list if there is anything you think we've missed >there. Just a few more ideas (probably somebody already has had these): 1. One thing that crossed my mind is that it would be a bad idea to have an idnits tool as well as a submission tool. Make it one tool, with a selection of "actual submission" or "check only". That way, tool differences are eliminated by design. 2. Another issue is the announcement of new rules. To implement a grace period, use two (or more) versions of the actual checking routines. Let's say there is one procedure that checks for what was the rule at IETF65, and another for IETF66. Assuming that the rules for IETF66 were announced at IETF65, submissions between IETF65 and IETF66 would be first checked against IETF66 rules, and any problems would be reported. Then, in the same turnaround, the submission would be checked against IETF65 rules, and if it passes these, it would be accepted with a very clear notice that this is due to a grace period (and maybe even giving the submitter an option to not submit but to try to catch up to the new rules). Given all the recent complaints, 1. seems to be a no-brainer. 2. in my opinion would also be great, and not too difficult to implement in terms of software, but it requires more effort for the announcements,... Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 04 11:17:31 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmeY-00087w-LF; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 11:17:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmeX-00087n-4Q; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 11:17:29 -0400 Received: from b.painless.aaisp.net.uk ([2001:8b0:0:81::51bb:5134] helo=smtp.aaisp.net.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmeV-000342-Jy; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 11:17:29 -0400 Received: from 247.254.187.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.187.254.247] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1FxmeT-0006wI-Qc; Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:17:26 +0100 Message-ID: <44AA873B.7090709@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:20:27 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Pointers to Issue Trackers X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Many drafts now have associated issue trackers but there is no consistent way of finding out where the issue tracker for a given draft is located. For example, I have just had occasion to make a comment about an issue in the ipr wg which I don't normally contribute to. Those involved are suggesting putting the issue into the tracker but I can't easily cross check what happens without either bothering somebody or delving back through the mailing list where I might find a reference. Two suggestions: - If a draft has an issue tracker, put a pointer to it into the draft (a standard place/form would help the next suggestion) - If possible, add a pointer to the issue tracker to the information page in the I-D database entry for the draft. Regards, Elwyn _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 05 07:50:24 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5ta-0004lj-KD; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:50:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5tZ-0004eU-8Q; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:50:17 -0400 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5tV-0004rd-Lo; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:50:17 -0400 Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.122]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E78206E0001; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:50:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw129.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.173]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:50:11 +0200 Received: from [147.214.30.119] ([147.214.30.119]) by esealmw129.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:50:11 +0200 Message-ID: <44ABA773.80701@ericsson.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:50:11 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RE: I-D woes [Re: advice on role of a WG Chair] References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> In-Reply-To: <863bdiiypg.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jul 2006 11:50:11.0718 (UTC) FILETIME=[2BE52A60:01C6A029] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: Bill Fenner , wgchairs@ietf.org, Brian Carpenter , Jari Arkko , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Eric and Andy, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I'd like to point out (for the umpteenth time) that as far > as I can tell the purpose of much of the boilerplate is > for the submitter to affirm the license grant/acceptance > of the BCP 79 terms, etc. This material does not need > to be in the document proper, it just needs to be > agreed to somewhere. It would be quite feasible to > have a web submission form where people agreed to these > terms and they never appeared in the document (modulo > complaints about web-only submission). > I would like to point out that there are certain exceptions to granting the IETF rights that the draft author can choose. In those cases it would still be important to indicate that fact. Andy Bierman wrote: > Bottom Line Question: > > Will the Boilerplate ever be done, and if so, when? > > (Anybody who thinks our documentation rules don't impact quality > has not been asked to make clarifications to an old RFC. You > either refuse to touch the RFC at all, or you spend 10X more > work on Boilerplate changes than clarifications.) I don't agree at all here. The boilerplate is a piece of cake compared to getting some protocols into shape. There are a lot of RFCs that are badly specified that it is substantive amounts of work of updating and clarifying them. Adding the correct boilerplate is not an issue. Especially as when updating the draft, you can just as well move it into XML2RFC and have the basic boilerplate done. There is common that you will need to substantially improve things like security consideration and IANA consideration sections. However that is simple because they been lacking in the previous version. Cheers Magnus Westerlund Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 8 4048287 Torshamsgatan 23 | Fax +46 8 7575550 S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 05 10:57:53 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8p6-0001xE-W6; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:57:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8p4-0001x6-Te; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:57:50 -0400 Received: from machshav.com ([147.28.0.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8p1-0001mK-HF; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 10:57:50 -0400 Received: from berkshire.machshav.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by machshav.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F348AFB2DF; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:57:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by berkshire.machshav.com (Postfix, from userid 54047) id BB88D3C04C2; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:57:38 -0400 From: "Steven M. Bellovin" To: Andy Bierman Message-Id: <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> In-Reply-To: <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> Organization: Columbia University X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 2.2.6 (GTK+ 2.8.19; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, brc@zurich.ibm.com, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 07:01:49 -0700, Andy Bierman wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Once again, there is going to be a new tool based on > > RFC 4228. There isn't going to be any work done on the > > existing tools that support the old manual submission process. > > > > People will have to see whether the new tool, when it comes, > > fixes all these concerns - and if it doesn't, then there will > > be a need for tuning. > > Bottom Line Question: > > Will the Boilerplate ever be done, and if so, when? > > (Anybody who thinks our documentation rules don't impact quality > has not been asked to make clarifications to an old RFC. You > either refuse to touch the RFC at all, or you spend 10X more > work on Boilerplate changes than clarifications.) > One item on the IPR agenda is a revision that moves the boilerplate to a web site -- that should make cut-and-paste much easier. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 05 11:08:47 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8zf-0007V8-7X; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 11:08:47 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8zd-0007Sp-Qv; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 11:08:45 -0400 Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy8zc-0002xJ-Ke; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 11:08:45 -0400 Received: from bright.research.att.com (bright.research.att.com [135.207.20.189]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B77147A79; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by bright.research.att.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.10/Submit) id k65F8iEi013916; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:08:44 -0400 From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: "Steven M. Bellovin" References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 11:08:44 -0400 Versions: dmail (linux) 2.7/makemail 2.14 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Andy Bierman , tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >One item on the IPR agenda is a revision that moves the boilerplate to a >web site -- that should make cut-and-paste much easier. Please forgive the ignorant question, but how is cut-and-paste from boilerplate on a web site easier than cut-and-paste from, oh, say, http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.html#iprnotices ? Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 05 14:25:46 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyC4H-0005UN-SS; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:25:45 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyC4F-0005UB-Qj; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:25:44 -0400 Received: from mail-red.research.att.com ([192.20.225.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyC4E-0000Aa-J7; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:25:43 -0400 Received: from bright.research.att.com (bright.research.att.com [135.207.20.189]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2A0147AFB; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from fenner@localhost) by bright.research.att.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.10/Submit) id k65IPgdg020433; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:25:42 -0400 From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <200607051825.k65IPgdg020433@bright.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: Ted Hardie References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:25:42 -0400 Versions: dmail (linux) 2.7/makemail 2.14 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org, "Steven M. Bellovin" Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org >Hmm, I thought the point was to say: "In compliance with the statement >at $WELLKNOWNPLACE". Then you don't have to cut and paste the statement >at all, just point to it. Is that not correct? draft-ietf-ipr-rules-update-06 changes 3978 section 5.1 from: 5.1. IPR Disclosure Acknowledgement (required in all Internet-Drafts only) "By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79." to: "5.1. IPR Disclosure Acknowledgement (required in all Internet- Drafts but not in RFCs) All I-Ds MUST include the exact text for an IPR Disclosure Acknowledgement from http://www.ietf.org/ipr-boilerplate- derivworks which I don't think changes anything for I-D writers - it provides a single place to copy-n-paste from, but we already have that in 1id-guidelines. It does make it easier for the IETF to update the boilerplate, since it doesn't mean publishing a new version of BCP 78. I've already had my rant on the ipr list about making it seem low cost to update the boilerplate so I won't bother repeating it here. Bill _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 01:35:14 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyMW9-0005U4-HP; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:35:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyMW9-0005Tw-75; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:35:13 -0400 Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.251.194]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyMW6-0005eI-I9; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 01:35:13 -0400 Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id k665Yepk026466; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:34:40 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.210.1) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 21b0_1ecd4e4e_0cb1_11db_83a5_0014221fa3c9; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:34:39 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k665YIOx020916; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:34:34 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20060706100355.07d53ec0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 10:12:47 +0900 To: Ted Hardie , Bill Fenner , "Steven M. Bellovin" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 02:31 06/07/06, Ted Hardie wrote: >Hmm, I thought the point was to say: "In compliance with the statement >at $WELLKNOWNPLACE". Then you don't have to cut and paste the statement >at all, just point to it. Is that not correct? > Ted I don't think this will work. There are two variants here: 1) $WELLNOWNPLACE itself is constant, but because the requirements change, the sentence in the draft has to be changed from $WELLNOWNPLACE1 to $WELLNOWNPLACE2 to $WELLNOWNPLACE3,... -> Editors still have to make sure they get the number right :-( 2) $WELLNOWNPLACE changes. What you then get is that it looks like people who authored a draft two years ago agree to the current (and any future) IETF statement, and that you can't really trace what they actually agreed to :-( If you want to make things easier with tools, what might be done is the following: When a draft is submitted, e.g. the copyright year is checked, and if it is found to be too old, the tool asks the submitter whether s/he is okay that the year is changed. The draft is then changed automatically. Similar things can be done for newer boilerplates, but of course some submitters will have to click cancel and check back with their legal departments. The main problems with this kind of approach would be: 1) The published draft is correct, but the editor forgets to update the local copy, and the next version has to be fixed again. 2) People might ask for more and more semi-automatic fixes. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 08:16:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySmb-0002Jt-Gw; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyBE9-0008Va-Ln; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:31:53 -0400 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyBE8-0004CA-Au; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:31:53 -0400 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id k65HVijK006384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:44 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dhcp-campbell-28.qualcomm.com [129.46.225.24]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id k65HVfGM005805; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:39 -0700 To: Bill Fenner , "Steven M. Bellovin" From: Ted Hardie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 11:08 AM -0400 7/5/06, Bill Fenner wrote: > >One item on the IPR agenda is a revision that moves the boilerplate to a >>web site -- that should make cut-and-paste much easier. > >Please forgive the ignorant question, but how is cut-and-paste from >boilerplate on a web site easier than cut-and-paste from, oh, say, >http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.html#iprnotices ? > > Bill Hmm, I thought the point was to say: "In compliance with the statement at $WELLKNOWNPLACE". Then you don't have to cut and paste the statement at all, just point to it. Is that not correct? Ted _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 08:16:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySmb-0002JP-DV; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5F0-00082S-42 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:08:22 -0400 Received: from posti6.jyu.fi ([130.234.4.43]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5Ey-0002Iq-Li for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:08:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.loFrom tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 08:16:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySmb-0002Jt-Gw; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyBE9-0008Va-Ln; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:31:53 -0400 Received: from ithilien.qualcomm.com ([129.46.51.59]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyBE8-0004CA-Au; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:31:53 -0400 Received: from magus.qualcomm.com (magus.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.148]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.12.5/1.0) with ESMTP id k65HVijK006384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:44 -0700 Received: from [10.0.1.4] (dhcp-campbell-28.qualcomm.com [129.46.225.24]) by magus.qualcomm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6/1.0) with ESMTP id k65HVfGM005805; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:31:39 -0700 To: Bill Fenner , "Steven M. Bellovin" From: Ted Hardie Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org At 11:08 AM -0400 7/5/06, Bill Fenner wrote: > >One item on the IPR agenda is a revision that moves the boilerplate to a >>web site -- that should make cut-and-paste much easier. > >Please forgive the ignorant question, but how is cut-and-paste from >boilerplate on a web site easier than cut-and-paste from, oh, say, >http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-guidelines.html#iprnotices ? > > Bill Hmm, I thought the point was to say: "In compliance with the statement at $WELLKNOWNPLACE". Then you don't have to cut and paste the statement at all, just point to it. Is that not correct? Ted _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 08:16:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySmb-0002JP-DV; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5F0-00082S-42 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:08:22 -0400 Received: from posti6.jyu.fi ([130.234.4.43]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fy5Ey-0002Iq-Li for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Jul 2006 07:08:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by posti6.jyu.fi (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k65B8IeQ004499 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:18 +0300 Received: from posti6.jyu.fi ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (posti6.jyu.fi [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04480-01 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pedanet.jyu.fi (wings.peda.net [130.234.89.110]) by posti6.jyu.fi (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k65B8GLc004481 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:16 +0300 Received: from [130.234.89.166] (semyo329k.ktl.jyu.fi [130.234.89.166]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pedanet.jyu.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BF787403D; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:15 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <44AB9D9F.3080308@peda.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:08:15 +0300 From: Mikko Rantalainen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cc.jyu.fi X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Problem with http://tools.ietf.org/html X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org It seems that Wikipedia.org is linking all text that looks like "RFC 3339" to respective addresses like http://tools.ietf.org/html/3339 However, addresses like the above do not work (they used to! [1]). Instead it seems that one has to now use URLs such as http://tools.ietf.org/html?rfc=3339 instead. Is this an intended change or a regression? [1] http://www.google.com/u/ietf?q=cache:N4qY0VLugUIJ:tools.ietf.org/html/3339 -- Mikko _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss caldomain [127.0.0.1]) by posti6.jyu.fi (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k65B8IeQ004499 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:18 +0300 Received: from posti6.jyu.fi ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (posti6.jyu.fi [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04480-01 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from pedanet.jyu.fi (wings.peda.net [130.234.89.110]) by posti6.jyu.fi (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k65B8GLc004481 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:16 +0300 Received: from [130.234.89.166] (semyo329k.ktl.jyu.fi [130.234.89.166]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pedanet.jyu.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BF787403D; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:08:15 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <44AB9D9F.3080308@peda.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:08:15 +0300 From: Mikko Rantalainen User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (X11/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cc.jyu.fi X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0400 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Problem with http://tools.ietf.org/html X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org It seems that Wikipedia.org is linking all text that looks like "RFC 3339" to respective addresses like http://tools.ietf.org/html/3339 However, addresses like the above do not work (they used to! [1]). Instead it seems that one has to now use URLs such as http://tools.ietf.org/html?rfc=3339 instead. Is this an intended change or a regression? [1] http://www.google.com/u/ietf?q=cache:N4qY0VLugUIJ:tools.ietf.org/html/3339 -- Mikko _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 08:28:37 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySyC-0002Yl-Me; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:28:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySyB-0002Yf-44 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:28:35 -0400 Received: from av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.181]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FySy9-0002oY-QA for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 08:28:35 -0400 Received: by av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 36EF4382BA; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av7-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6905B38294; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:02:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1E137E57; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:28:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FySy7-0002JC-9G; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:28:31 +0200 Message-ID: <44AD01EC.7020607@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 14:28:28 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikko Rantalainen Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Problem with http://tools.ietf.org/html References: <44AB9D9F.3080308@peda.net> In-Reply-To: <44AB9D9F.3080308@peda.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Mikko, on 2006-07-05 13:08 Mikko Rantalainen said the following: > It seems that Wikipedia.org is linking all text that looks like "RFC > 3339" to respective addresses like > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/3339 > > However, addresses like the above do not work (they used to! [1]). > Instead it seems that one has to now use URLs such as > > http://tools.ietf.org/html?rfc=3339 > > instead. Is this an intended change or a regression? Regression, I guess. The 3rd tools server which I added to the DNS response for 'tools.ietf.org' two days ago isn't behaving quite as the other two. I'm fixing the problems as I discover them. This one should be fixed now. Thanks for reporting it! Best, Henrik > > [1] > http://www.google.com/u/ietf?q=cache:N4qY0VLugUIJ:tools.ietf.org/html/3339 > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 06 10:51:39 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyVCa-0007zw-H7; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 10:51:36 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyVCa-0007zN-30; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 10:51:36 -0400 Received: from mtagate5.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.154]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FyVCV-0008Mg-I1; Thu, 06 Jul 2006 10:51:36 -0400 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate5.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k66EpTEL064376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 6 Jul 2006 14:51:29 GMT Received: from d12av04.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av04.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.229]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k66EsFUR123642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:54:15 +0200 Received: from d12av04.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av04.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k66EpTEF029296; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:51:29 +0200 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d12av04.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k66EpSJG029290; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:51:28 +0200 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-146-218-172.de.ibm.com [9.146.218.172]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA35968; Thu, 6 Jul 2006 16:51:11 +0200 Message-ID: <44AD235E.8000107@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:51:10 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Duerst Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Submit Tool Change Request References: <44A4C8E8.4040805@piuha.net> <44A559DD.8050703@piuha.net> <200607011213.k61CDgOF026315@bright.research.att.com> <44A8E961.4050402@zurich.ibm.com> <200607031330.k63DUDds019649@bright.research.att.com> <44A91E92.8040703@levkowetz.com> <44A934C9.50204@andybierman.com> <44A93CA6.2050601@andybierman.com> <86u05ypsut.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <44AA1A78.90006@zurich.ibm.com> <44AA74CD.3090008@andybierman.com> <20060705105738.8d52fe3e.smb@cs.columbia.edu> <200607051508.k65F8iEi013916@bright.research.att.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20060706100355.07d53ec0@localhost> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20060706100355.07d53ec0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: Ted Hardie , Bill Fenner , tools-discuss@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org, "Steven M. Bellovin" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org I suggest taking this discussion to the ipr WG, which gets to decide. Brian Martin Duerst wrote: > At 02:31 06/07/06, Ted Hardie wrote: > > >>Hmm, I thought the point was to say: "In compliance with the statement >>at $WELLKNOWNPLACE". Then you don't have to cut and paste the statement >>at all, just point to it. Is that not correct? >> Ted > > > I don't think this will work. There are two variants here: > > 1) $WELLNOWNPLACE itself is constant, but because the requirements > change, the sentence in the draft has to be changed from > $WELLNOWNPLACE1 to $WELLNOWNPLACE2 to $WELLNOWNPLACE3,... > -> Editors still have to make sure they get the number right :-( > > 2) $WELLNOWNPLACE changes. What you then get is that it looks like > people who authored a draft two years ago agree to the current > (and any future) IETF statement, and that you can't really > trace what they actually agreed to :-( > > If you want to make things easier with tools, what might be done > is the following: When a draft is submitted, e.g. the copyright > year is checked, and if it is found to be too old, the tool > asks the submitter whether s/he is okay that the year is changed. > The draft is then changed automatically. Similar things can be > done for newer boilerplates, but of course some submitters will > have to click cancel and check back with their legal departments. > The main problems with this kind of approach would be: > 1) The published draft is correct, but the editor forgets to > update the local copy, and the next version has to be fixed > again. > 2) People might ask for more and more semi-automatic fixes. > > Regards, Martin. > > > > #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 07 19:38:16 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fyztm-0006Hi-Cf; Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:38:14 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fyztl-0006Ha-9n; Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:38:13 -0400 Received: from key1.docomolabs-usa.com ([216.98.102.225] helo=fridge.docomolabs-usa.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fyztj-0005dW-TW; Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:38:13 -0400 Message-ID: <0c3901c6a21e$9f53ddb0$616015ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> From: "James Kempf" To: "Elwyn Davies" , "Tools Team Discussion" References: <44AA873B.7090709@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:39:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Pointers to Issue Trackers X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elwyn Davies" To: "Tools Team Discussion" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:20 AM Subject: Pointers to Issue Trackers > Many drafts now have associated issue trackers but there is no consistent > way of finding out where the issue tracker for a given draft is located. > For example, I have just had occasion to make a comment about an issue in > the ipr wg which I don't normally contribute to. Those involved are > suggesting putting the issue into the tracker but I can't easily cross > check what happens without either bothering somebody or delving back > through the mailing list where I might find a reference. > > Two suggestions: > - If a draft has an issue tracker, put a pointer to it into the draft (a > standard place/form would help the next suggestion) > - If possible, add a pointer to the issue tracker to the information page > in the I-D database entry for the draft. > Why can't this be put on the WG charter Web page? At some point, it seems like these additional tools/Web pages which are "unofficial" need to start getting folded into the "official" IETF pages for working groups. jak _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 09 11:41:24 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzbPL-00051V-96; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:41:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzbPJ-0004ur-Mi for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:41:17 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzbPJ-00075I-38 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:41:17 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2006 08:41:16 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k69FfG4k005624 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:41:16 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k69FfFsT007876; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:41:15 -0700 Received: from [10.2.190.248] ([10.21.146.72]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 9 Jul 2006 08:41:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:41:12 -0400 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2006 15:41:15.0445 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CF90650:01C6A36E] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=4159; t=1152459676; x=1153323676; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:Looking=20for=20suggestions=20on=20a=20Grammar=20Checker; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DL1n1xfWBbY8aq6YJ08dpO9SRliI=3D; b=S0P6dtdq91rrq+GLCV6kNjG95zH00CHu7FW6W5yotO2K0yWmHbLTwFyeF80Yb5EvhoSlfHX9 DhzuzbTaxqUepYZXXg6EjEseYI9F488ksMvQC9sXfCjqR1f6Rz8YiX9o; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org I sat down and reviewed a draft yesterday and found it particularly difficult to read - and I am a native speaker of English. I pity those of us who aren't. Now, some history. Some will recall that in late 1994 I was asked to take the text of the document that is now RFC 1716, change it to reflect CIDR and the decision to make RIP historical, generally edit it for readability, and produce what is now RFC 1812. I got a lot of very nice comments about the "edit for readability" part. The way I went about that was to get a new laptop (I was changing companies, so that went with it), install the latest version of Microsoft Word (Cisco uses Microsoft Office internally), make some conversions to the nroff source to put it in newline-ends-a-paragraph format, and use Microsoft's then-new grammar checker. The program complained bitterly about "which" vs "that", an argument trained grammarians aren't altogether sure is valid. It also complained bitterly about passive voice; changing passive voice to active voice turned out to be a very good thing to do, and is something I don't do religiously but seriously consider doing when it is pointed out. It made a few very specific suggestions on how to reword things and found a long list of spelling errors. But the very best thing it did was give up. It said that it couldn't parse a number of sentences that I had read and thought I understood on first reading. When I read them again, I couldn't either, and in each case turned the sentence into two or three that were more understandable. I used that trick on the document I read yesterday, and came up with a number of specific changes that I think actually improved the text. That said, when I recommended the procedure back to the editors of the document, they said (surprise!) that they didn't use Microsoft Office, partially because their OS's didn't support it. Which makes me think - well, actually, I'm on MacOSX, and putting XML documents or posted I-Ds into Word for a grammar check is a particularly painful and somewhat bizarre procedure. There must be something better. I have downloaded trial versions of Grammatica and Grammarian Pro. Grammatica has the nice property that it operates within XMLMind, at the touch of a hot key. It isn't very helpful with posted internet drafts, but I have a hunch that I can find a way around that, using a combination of a script that will remove page breaks and convert the text to newline-ends-a-paragraph format and then doing the comparison in TextWrangler (my GUI text editor - YMMV). A quick check with an xml2rfc XML I-D indicates that it will complain about the XML itself but seems to mostly work on the text I write, which is a good start. I haven't tried Grammarian Pro yet. Neither one works well with newline-ends-a-line format, which means that checking a posted ID requires me to do some unnatural acts with the file. I would that this were different. It would also be nice to have a tool that would additionally run on FreeBSD or on Linux in addition to MacOSX (and hey, running on Windows wouldn't be a bad idea), and could be recommended to the IETF at large. The Open Office web page notes that it doesn't have a grammar checking tool and expects that someone will someday add one. It also notes an argument in grammatical circles, that there is little hope of anyone ever writing a perfect tool. Some in those circles say that absent a perfect tool, a partial tool is a bad idea. I agree with that argument, but note that I use a spell checker on documents - including on this email. I am not asking for a perfect tool, just one that will help. I'm not thinking of this as a "final check" tool - the purpose here is not "you can't submit this to the IESG if you haven't run this tool on it and had it come out clean". I'm thinking of this as a tool one runs on a -00 draft, and on any version of it if one is the author, and it helps one write a clearer document. Any suggestions/recommendations? _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 09 11:55:33 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzbd5-0004MT-TM; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:55:31 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzbd4-0004MN-HI for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:55:30 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzbd1-00082G-07 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:55:30 -0400 Received: from h16e9-net84db.lab.risq.net (unknown [132.219.22.233]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E891BAC9E for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 17:41:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by h16e9-net84db.lab.risq.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1870D1384AE for ; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> Message-Id: <234DCC6C-6719-4FDE-A224-3D347D9186DD@netlab.nec.de> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Lars Eggert Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 11:55:21 -0400 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1210058542==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --===============1210058542== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-12-207146978; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" --Apple-Mail-12-207146978 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jul 9, 2006, at 11:41, Fred Baker wrote: > Which makes me think - well, actually, I'm on MacOSX, and putting > XML documents or posted I-Ds into Word for a grammar check is a > particularly painful and somewhat bizarre procedure. There must be > something better. I don't think there is, unfortunately. If you convert the XML to HTML instead of text, importing into Word is a bit less painful. > It would also be nice to have a tool that would additionally run on > FreeBSD or on Linux in addition to MacOSX (and hey, running on > Windows wouldn't be a bad idea), and could be recommended to the > IETF at large. http://www.danielnaber.de/languagetool/ was recommended when I asked about grammar checkers on this list a while ago. It's multiplatform (Java), but its checks are rudimentary at best. 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([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzcP8-0003JM-7X for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:45:12 -0400 Received: from [128.9.176.38] (c1-vpn8.isi.edu [128.9.176.38]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k69GidH10119; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 09:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 09:44:30 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b1c41982e167b872076d0018e4e1dc3c Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1658697466==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1658697466== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigF7B68659CBA7AE357DFCA5AC" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigF7B68659CBA7AE357DFCA5AC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Baker wrote: > I sat down and reviewed a draft yesterday and found it particularly > difficult to read - and I am a native speaker of English. I pity those > of us who aren't. >=20 > Now, some history. Some will recall that in late 1994 I was asked to > take the text of the document that is now RFC 1716, change it to reflec= t > CIDR and the decision to make RIP historical, generally edit it for > readability, and produce what is now RFC 1812. I got a lot of very nice= > comments about the "edit for readability" part. The way I went about > that was to get a new laptop (I was changing companies, so that went > with it), install the latest version of Microsoft Word (Cisco uses > Microsoft Office internally), make some conversions to the nroff source= > to put it in newline-ends-a-paragraph format, and use Microsoft's > then-new grammar checker. The program complained bitterly about "which"= > vs "that", an argument trained grammarians aren't altogether sure is > valid.=20 That's news to me, and to: http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/whoVwhVt.asp http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/cmosfaq/cmosfaq.WhichvsThat.ht= ml which introduces nonrestrictive clauses that introduces restrictive clauses > It also complained bitterly about passive voice; changing passive > voice to active voice turned out to be a very good thing to do, and is > something I don't do religiously but seriously consider doing when it i= s > pointed out. It made a few very specific suggestions on how to reword > things and found a long list of spelling errors. But the very best thin= g > it did was give up. It said that it couldn't parse a number of sentence= s > that I had read and thought I understood on first reading. When I read > them again, I couldn't either, and in each case turned the sentence int= o > two or three that were more understandable. > >I used that trick on the document I read yesterday, and came up with a > number of specific changes that I think actually improved the text. Tha= t > said, when I recommended the procedure back to the editors of the > document, they said (surprise!) that they didn't use Microsoft Office, > partially because their OS's didn't support it. >=20 > Which makes me think - well, actually, I'm on MacOSX, and putting XML > documents or posted I-Ds into Word for a grammar check is a particularl= y > painful and somewhat bizarre procedure. There must be something better.= You might consider using the word template instead ;-) > I have downloaded trial versions of Grammatica and Grammarian Pro. > Grammatica has the nice property that it operates within XMLMind, at th= e > touch of a hot key. It isn't very helpful with posted internet drafts, > but I have a hunch that I can find a way around that, using a > combination of a script that will remove page breaks and convert the > text to newline-ends-a-paragraph format and then doing the comparison i= n > TextWrangler (my GUI text editor - YMMV). A quick check with an xml2rfc= > XML I-D indicates that it will complain about the XML itself but seems > to mostly work on the text I write, which is a good start. I haven't > tried Grammarian Pro yet. >=20 > Neither one works well with newline-ends-a-line format, which means tha= t > checking a posted ID requires me to do some unnatural acts with the > file. I would that this were different. I thought the whole point of XML was "markup once, render multiple times". Wouldn't a different 'output spec' (pardon, I don't know the name of that for XML) achieve this? (although you're introducing a separate render-process-review-edit loop, which makes finding the text you want to correct a bit convoluted. but that's the price of not using a wysiwyg system ;-) > It would also be nice to have a tool that would additionally run on > FreeBSD or on Linux in addition to MacOSX (and hey, running on Windows > wouldn't be a bad idea), and could be recommended to the IETF at large.= > The Open Office web page notes that it doesn't have a grammar checking > tool and expects that someone will someday add one. It also notes an > argument in grammatical circles, that there is little hope of anyone > ever writing a perfect tool. Some in those circles say that absent a > perfect tool, a partial tool is a bad idea. I agree with that argument,= > but note that I use a spell checker on documents - including on this > email. I am not asking for a perfect tool, just one that will help. I'm= > not thinking of this as a "final check" tool - the purpose here is not > "you can't submit this to the IESG if you haven't run this tool on it > and had it come out clean". I'm thinking of this as a tool one runs on = a > -00 draft, and on any version of it if one is the author, and it helps > one write a clearer document. >=20 > Any suggestions/recommendations? --------------enigF7B68659CBA7AE357DFCA5AC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEsTJuE5f5cImnZrsRAr5ZAKC3NLB0tvo0X9dPi0MzrDmO96j8dwCggCCh pp0trz8Mz3oJccQIG50J4Cs= =Zj6D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigF7B68659CBA7AE357DFCA5AC-- --===============1658697466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============1658697466==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 09 21:58:14 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzl2L-0002Z0-4A; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:58:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzl2J-0002Yv-RF for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:58:11 -0400 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fzl2H-0001vo-Je for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:58:11 -0400 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Jul 2006 18:58:09 -0700 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,221,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="31591299:sNHT21941728" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6A1w9o2002535; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 21:58:09 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k6A1w87t016661; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 21:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 9 Jul 2006 21:58:08 -0400 Received: from [10.2.190.248] ([10.82.241.56]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 9 Jul 2006 21:58:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2006 21:58:05 -0400 To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2006 01:58:08.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A6D9190:01C6A3C4] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=368; t=1152496689; x=1153360689; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20[Tools-discuss]=20Looking=20for=20suggestions=20on=20a=20Grammar =20Checker |To:Joe=20Touch=20; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DmAjs479BGbjleJZw6KYYu+Z7wTM=3D; b=EiKx0nxKwhr+5Xb9vxDay+5B6ofzeiXhPSfcunAtDQ3OfPzCIY+NrUwnUCr8LbaTvv2ri/kI 7JEMlMiGjxvIksLMKe9Jp+vIbZl1OCoevOlfiwg0J+GIu0EbPbmOZgCI; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org On Jul 9, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > I thought the whole point of XML was "markup once, render multiple > times". Wouldn't a different 'output spec' (pardon, I don't know the > name of that for XML) achieve this? doesn't that kind of imply that posted drafts are in XML format? In this comment, I'm talking about reviewing posted .txt drafts. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 09 22:09:19 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzlCz-0000dy-MH; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 22:09:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzlCz-0000dt-9T for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 22:09:13 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzlCx-0003Cn-Rr for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 22:09:13 -0400 Received: from [128.9.176.75] ([128.9.176.75]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k6A28JH21334; Sun, 9 Jul 2006 19:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 19:08:07 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0871178995==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============0871178995== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig94256636BE30EAF8CA56DB3F" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig94256636BE30EAF8CA56DB3F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > On Jul 9, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >=20 >> I thought the whole point of XML was "markup once, render multiple >> times". Wouldn't a different 'output spec' (pardon, I don't know the >> name of that for XML) achieve this? >=20 > doesn't that kind of imply that posted drafts are in XML format? >=20 > In this comment, I'm talking about reviewing posted .txt drafts Converting .txt to reviewable text (e.g., that can be analyzed by word at least) isn't that complex (I teach emacs to do it when I need to by example, but a Perl script isn't that hard): fold the paragraphs down: replace \n\n with MAGICSTRING replace \n with ' ' replace MAGICSTRING with \n use a somewhat more complex pattern to remove trailer/header pairs It's fairly easy to automate that; you'll still get aliases from the use of 'o' for bullets and from figures, but you just ignore those. Joe --------------enig94256636BE30EAF8CA56DB3F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEsbaHE5f5cImnZrsRAuxNAKCnOqkRM5KmhynmvBLY/0DM1RIy7QCgiLRe Hgf6sUaFMWPxJ+tcCcfYtzA= =dJBH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig94256636BE30EAF8CA56DB3F-- --===============0871178995== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============0871178995==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 10 09:58:00 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzwGu-00014w-MP; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 09:58:00 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FznPj-00059w-6g for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:30:31 -0400 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FznPh-0005bR-S9 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:30:31 -0400 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id s49so236242pyc for ; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:30:29 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=googlemail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lZq0y7ExSR4go0LMz6MJ4IMs/qn0+k2UxTWeYBV+aV0zPzd1xTZYMmCKZllkqOc54tWo3pXPD2MS5K1fSAqgVw3K8HbfaD5VsE1ncLIS9vVmmppP3D1FJxYxci/c0t3TFs0I3m0OJeVkrjmQ9qXGOKH9k4o/xChp02xH0AtZz/o= Received: by 10.35.91.10 with SMTP id t10mr2161253pyl; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?142.131.134.184? ( [142.131.134.184]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id k53sm340061pyd.2006.07.09.21.30.09; Sun, 09 Jul 2006 21:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B1D881.5050606@googlemail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 05:33:05 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Pointers to Issue Trackers References: <44AA873B.7090709@dial.pipex.com> <0c3901c6a21e$9f53ddb0$616015ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> In-Reply-To: <0c3901c6a21e$9f53ddb0$616015ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 09:57:58 -0400 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org James Kempf wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elwyn Davies" > To: "Tools Team Discussion" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:20 AM > Subject: Pointers to Issue Trackers > > >> Many drafts now have associated issue trackers but there is no >> consistent way of finding out where the issue tracker for a given >> draft is located. >> For example, I have just had occasion to make a comment about an >> issue in the ipr wg which I don't normally contribute to. Those >> involved are suggesting putting the issue into the tracker but I >> can't easily cross check what happens without either bothering >> somebody or delving back through the mailing list where I might find >> a reference. >> >> Two suggestions: >> - If a draft has an issue tracker, put a pointer to it into the draft >> (a standard place/form would help the next suggestion) >> - If possible, add a pointer to the issue tracker to the information >> page in the I-D database entry for the draft. >> > > Why can't this be put on the WG charter Web page? These are per draft not per wg. Potentially they could be added after the draft name but the draft page in the i-d interface seems a better answer. /Elwyn > > At some point, it seems like these additional tools/Web pages which > are "unofficial" need to start getting folded into the "official" IETF > pages for working groups. > > jak > > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 10 13:22:23 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzzSf-0007QC-PR; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:22:21 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzzSd-0007Pv-SL for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:22:19 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fztjg-0007wi-Aw for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:15:32 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FztJ3-0006aj-Hx for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 06:48:02 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2006 03:48:01 -0700 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6AAm05A014471 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 03:48:00 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k6AAm0DD019089 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 03:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 03:48:00 -0700 Received: from [10.2.190.248] ([10.21.144.78]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 03:48:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 06:47:58 -0400 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2006 10:48:00.0440 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FF21380:01C6A40E] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1185; t=1152528480; x=1153392480; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20[Tools-discuss]=20Looking=20for=20suggestions=20on=20a=20Grammar =20Checker; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DqGHqcgxWL3o1+jGO0Ja1t1Ge6O0=3D; b=ehz6wRm8JVM7TIWDFDE/ReLWSKNYp9Bu5OL3o+3ti+1enOIvO/9d2hyBFpoIv0FKgBD8qYMb uG/XWe4vSBPBiIdluRA/at62xsm5tNmLZynuA06kWAc+wMH53Qxi9PFt; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Never mind. I was asking a question about software packages, but I'm getting a tutorial on programming. There are, in fact, a few things I know how to do. On Jul 9, 2006, at 10:08 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > Fred Baker wrote: >> >> On Jul 9, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Joe Touch wrote: >> >>> I thought the whole point of XML was "markup once, render multiple >>> times". Wouldn't a different 'output spec' (pardon, I don't know the >>> name of that for XML) achieve this? >> >> doesn't that kind of imply that posted drafts are in XML format? >> >> In this comment, I'm talking about reviewing posted .txt drafts > > Converting .txt to reviewable text (e.g., that can be analyzed by word > at least) isn't that complex (I teach emacs to do it when I need to by > example, but a Perl script isn't that hard): > > fold the paragraphs down: > replace \n\n with MAGICSTRING > replace \n with ' ' > replace MAGICSTRING with \n > > use a somewhat more complex pattern to remove trailer/header pairs > > It's fairly easy to automate that; you'll still get aliases from > the use > of 'o' for bullets and from figures, but you just ignore those. > > Joe > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 10 13:57:28 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G000e-0002PF-QX; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:57:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G000d-0002P9-MG for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:57:27 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G000c-0001jw-9u for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:57:27 -0400 Received: from [132.219.18.179] (h12b3-net84db.lab.risq.net [132.219.18.179] (may be forged)) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k6AHuoH05482; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B294DC.1050004@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:56:44 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1545810417==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1545810417== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8CFB1C1ED6A5C186DD1812CC" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8CFB1C1ED6A5C186DD1812CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Baker wrote: > Never mind. I was asking a question about software packages, but I'm > getting a tutorial on programming. There are, in fact, a few things I > know how to do. Sorry - I saw your concern: > Which makes me think - well, actually, I'm on MacOSX, and putting XML > documents or posted I-Ds into Word for a grammar check is a particularl= y > painful and somewhat bizarre procedure. There must be something better.= The pain/bizarrity seems threefold: 1) XML or TXT needs to be converted to a useful form for analysis 2) it's a 2-3 phase process 3) packages are required to do the analysis (3) was already addressed; many packages are commercial, unfortunately. (2) is required if a separate conversion step is required (e.g., for TXT or XML); if an integrated package is used (e.g., Word), the result is one-phase. I was addressing (1). Was there a different issue that made this painful or bizarre? Joe --------------enig8CFB1C1ED6A5C186DD1812CC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEspTcE5f5cImnZrsRAoONAKC3DHBWW00shoihziSTDaVW1WkGbgCdGnOZ tMk+QnvT8CGalJMnZOHcQvY= =U4/A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8CFB1C1ED6A5C186DD1812CC-- --===============1545810417== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============1545810417==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 10 14:10:25 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00DB-0004Jh-El; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:10:25 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00D9-0004Jc-QI for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:10:23 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00D8-0003Fs-FR for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:10:23 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2006 11:10:22 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,225,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="1836990300:sNHT33082572" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6AIAM7I005334; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:22 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k6AIAL46002926; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:21 -0700 Received: from [10.2.190.248] ([10.21.121.84]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:10:20 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44B294DC.1050004@isi.edu> References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> <44B294DC.1050004@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <14EBC4D8-FF51-4C10-AE05-04AE5A9A32AE@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:10:14 -0400 To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2006 18:10:21.0389 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B957FD0:01C6A44C] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1959; t=1152555022; x=1153419022; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim7001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20[Tools-discuss]=20Looking=20for=20suggestions=20on=20a=20Grammar =20Checker; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DqGHqcgxWL3o1+jGO0Ja1t1Ge6O0=3D; b=B5YXpqJapoOigMYeDzynI/f9hpwW/q5RC7MhEpxhqK2E2MfdZy5HC6EALECIxPCP6NSTrpPv 9j6lhQJriuGtD6rB6KIwVG39YmUwSO91lQGX4bq88Whsq2N/NbxmNuqo; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org It would be really nice if there was a package (which is what I was asking about) that could accept *lines* that ended in a \n and *paragraphs* that ended in \n\n and was able to do a grammar check. What I do right now is something not unlike what you propose and put it into a package that runs on a subset of laptops and has a grammar checker. As I said, I am playing with a couple of grammar checkers, at least one of which will run in XMLMind, but that doesn't help much with a document I don't have the xml2rfc file, only the text output of nroff- or-whatever, for. And the QUESTION had to do with recommendations of SOFTWARE PACKAGES, not programming tips. Read the subject line. On Jul 10, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > Fred Baker wrote: >> Never mind. I was asking a question about software packages, but I'm >> getting a tutorial on programming. There are, in fact, a few things I >> know how to do. > > Sorry - I saw your concern: > >> Which makes me think - well, actually, I'm on MacOSX, and putting XML >> documents or posted I-Ds into Word for a grammar check is a >> particularly >> painful and somewhat bizarre procedure. There must be something >> better. > > The pain/bizarrity seems threefold: > > 1) XML or TXT needs to be converted to a useful form for analysis > > 2) it's a 2-3 phase process > > 3) packages are required to do the analysis > > (3) was already addressed; many packages are commercial, > unfortunately. > > (2) is required if a separate conversion step is required (e.g., > for TXT > or XML); if an integrated package is used (e.g., Word), the result is > one-phase. > > I was addressing (1). > > Was there a different issue that made this painful or bizarre? > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 10 14:42:30 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00iD-0008Dr-8D; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:42:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00iC-0008Dg-BJ for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:42:28 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G00iB-000805-0k for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:42:28 -0400 Received: from [132.219.18.179] (h12b3-net84db.lab.risq.net [132.219.18.179] (may be forged)) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k6AIfYH17372; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <44B29F57.7090509@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:41:27 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> <44B1326E.3030904@isi.edu> <40D53858-CCFB-4EE1-A3B0-0BBABB06BD76@cisco.com> <44B1B687.1000307@isi.edu> <44B294DC.1050004@isi.edu> <14EBC4D8-FF51-4C10-AE05-04AE5A9A32AE@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <14EBC4D8-FF51-4C10-AE05-04AE5A9A32AE@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1221513885==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --===============1221513885== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigD5C837C57E5B1C7D5DE447E9" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigD5C837C57E5B1C7D5DE447E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred Baker wrote: > It would be really nice if there was a package (which is what I was > asking about) that could accept *lines* that ended in a \n and > *paragraphs* that ended in \n\n and was able to do a grammar check. That wouldn't be sufficient - there are breaks across pages that need to be addressed. Joe --------------enigD5C837C57E5B1C7D5DE447E9 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEsp9XE5f5cImnZrsRAkx2AJ9F8mOxPazBP41jU6xQGYr+2e8s2QCdHgBM jbQLuG+Mb0j8vLSxbxlF9Rs= =CeqA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigD5C837C57E5B1C7D5DE447E9-- --===============1221513885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============1221513885==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 11 08:18:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G0HCT-0005dR-Hg; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:18:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzwoK-0004EU-1N for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:32:32 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FzwoI-000246-Ko for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:32:32 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Jul 2006 07:32:29 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,225,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="1836895298:sNHT2263776884" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6AEWTjG013828 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:32:29 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k6AEWTTQ000820 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:32:28 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:32:28 -0700 Message-ID: <44B264FD.3040303@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 10:32:29 -0400 From: Randall Stewart User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20060223 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker References: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9F98093C-DBAF-4AE5-8EE5-28842E6D2509@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2006 14:32:28.0686 (UTC) FILETIME=[ABA552E0:01C6A42D] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1778; t=1152541949; x=1153405949; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rrs@cisco.com; z=From:Randall=20Stewart=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20Looking=20for=20suggestions=20on=20a=20Grammar=20Checker; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DKS+O9RbQWHUFSagmQvK4lsmtJOs=3D; b=d6PLoGIL3VnPSUO+1d7XroskjsUjV4rgMNTRM12vuef6o/cleHiR1zOLRp9fB4R6mhPau0lw +xQfvBdBxMGG2m3RRL+sRRHgGm7guXeTT72Fwys7alMl/Pp+ZFQoM5qz; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=rrs@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:18:48 -0400 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: Looking for suggestions on a Grammar Checker X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fred Baker wrote: > It would also be nice to have a tool that would additionally run on > FreeBSD or on Linux in addition to MacOSX (and hey, running on Windows > wouldn't be a bad idea), and could be recommended to the IETF at large. > The Open Office web page notes that it doesn't have a grammar checking > tool and expects that someone will someday add one. It also notes an > argument in grammatical circles, that there is little hope of anyone > ever writing a perfect tool. Some in those circles say that absent a > perfect tool, a partial tool is a bad idea. I agree with that argument, > but note that I use a spell checker on documents - including on this > email. I am not asking for a perfect tool, just one that will help. I'm > not thinking of this as a "final check" tool - the purpose here is not > "you can't submit this to the IESG if you haven't run this tool on it > and had it come out clean". I'm thinking of this as a tool one runs on > a -00 draft, and on any version of it if one is the author, and it > helps one write a clearer document. > > Any suggestions/recommendations? > Ok, in digging around I find abiword has some plugins... One of which is a grammer checker... it appears from the web page: http://www.abisource.com/twiki/bin/view/Abiword/PluginMatrix it has: - and ++ the - under stable, means there is NO stable one.. its not being worked on.. But the ++ under devel.. means The plugin generally works although it is not finished, and it may suffer from some instability. So I guess this means it is being developed.. but no stable code yet exists ... :-) R -- Randall Stewart NSSTG - Cisco Systems Inc. 803-345-0369 815-342-5222 (cell) _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 13 15:55:34 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G17Ha-0001X7-CU; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:55:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1704-0002fJ-Ml for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:37:28 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G16p4-0001vh-PH for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:26:08 -0400 Received: from [132.219.6.240] (h06f0-net84db.lab.risq.net [132.219.6.240] (may be forged)) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k6DJPSH21804; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) References: <008201c6a6ab$a72c13e0$d21ddb84@kfallmobl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Aaron Falk Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 15:25:22 -0400 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: falk@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 Cc: Kevin Fall Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: some frustration with tracker for IRTF groups X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Feedback for the tools team from an IRTF user. --aaron Begin forwarded message: > From: "Kevin Fall" > Date: July 13, 2006 2:39:17 PM EDT (CA) > To: "'Aaron Falk'" > Cc: "Internet Research Steering Group" > Subject: some frustration with tracker for IRTF groups > Reply-To: > > > > I realize we are using the tracker to manage IRTF docs, but it =20 > seems like the IRTF stuff is buried and fragmentary. Is it just me =20= > that is having these problems!?... > > > > In particular, there is no listing of =93RGs:=94 in the leftmost = column. > > > > There is this page: > > > > http://www1.tools.ietf.org/rg/ > > > > but it is empty. This page isn=92t empty: > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/ > > > > but finding it doesn=92t seem very easy. > > > > This page: > > > > http://www1.tools.ietf.org/wg/irtf/trac/wiki > > > > gets a server error, yet this one > > > > http://www1.tools.ietf.org/wg/irtf/trac/report > > > > works. > > > > How would we go about fixing this all up? > > > > Thanks, > > - Kevin > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 13 17:49:50 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G194A-00036v-D6; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:49:50 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1948-00036S-OR for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:49:48 -0400 Received: from av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1947-0002iJ-DF for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:49:48 -0400 Received: by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 984F0380CF; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:49:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.101]) by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899CC37E92; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:49:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-1-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04F537E46; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:49:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G1944-0006MY-Oe; Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:49:45 +0200 Message-ID: <44B6BFF0.70504@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:49:36 -0400 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron Falk Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: some frustration with tracker for IRTF groups References: <008201c6a6ab$a72c13e0$d21ddb84@kfallmobl> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: Kevin Fall , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Aaron, on 2006-07-13 15:25 Aaron Falk said the following: > Feedback for the tools team from an IRTF user. >=20 > --aaron >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: "Kevin Fall" >> Date: July 13, 2006 2:39:17 PM EDT (CA) >> To: "'Aaron Falk'" >> Cc: "Internet Research Steering Group" >> Subject: some frustration with tracker for IRTF groups >> Reply-To: >> >> I realize we are using the tracker to manage IRTF docs, but it =20 >> seems like the IRTF stuff is buried and fragmentary. Is it just me =20 >> that is having these problems!?... >> >> In particular, there is no listing of =93RGs:=94 in the leftmost colum= n. Fixed. >> >> There is this page: >> >> http://www1.tools.ietf.org/rg/ >> >> but it is empty. Fixed. > This page isn=92t empty: >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/ >> >> but finding it doesn=92t seem very easy. Fixed >> >> This page: >> >> http://www1.tools.ietf.org/wg/irtf/trac/wiki >> >> gets a server error, yet this one >> >> http://www1.tools.ietf.org/wg/irtf/trac/report >> >> works. Fluke. But now both works. >> >> >> How would we go about fixing this all up? Letting me know about the problems ,;-) Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 14 07:14:35 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Lcr-0007te-ST; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:29 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Lcp-0007tT-TJ for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:27 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Lco-0006ZJ-IM for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:27 -0400 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Jul 2006 04:14:26 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,240,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="329050252:sNHT26633186" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6EBEP46006526; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 04:14:25 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k6EBEP2D004124; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 14 Jul 2006 04:14:24 -0700 Received: from [10.2.242.255] ([10.21.144.164]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 14 Jul 2006 04:14:24 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44AC427F.9030808@levkowetz.com> References: <44AC427F.9030808@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <62344488-D822-4834-A49A-0BE4E4B7585E@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:21 -0400 To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2006 11:14:24.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9CB66B0:01C6A736] DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1044; t=1152875666; x=1153739666; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:iCal=20calendar=20for=20IETF=20meetings; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DZJcKWeRXw7dUxUQNZ3MZa+PZ1T4=3D; b=sakfOoSeV14A0Czlc0uK5Mra/92plfNu1xjJEkbBhht8zAxO8Y10zxLAO9WK4Jr+mIaI1UuC 8jstBlJ/dCiMfvjh7OFUuXdlaWFh0AO6szZM8DPLB2eNMyb88tEpKp89; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Subject: [Tools-discuss] iCal calendar for IETF meetings X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Henrik: You said something Wednesday evening to the effect that you didn't know what opinions were regarding the calendar tool. I for one used it and found it useful. My complaints with the tool are in fact iCal complaints, not tool complaints. (1) This morning, I unsubscribed from the IETF 66 calendar and tried to subscribe to the IETF 67 calendar using the URL http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/67/ics/ietf-66+ieprep+nmrg+tsvwg+opsarea +v6ops+ospf+IETF+tsvarea+tcpm+Technical.ics (e.g., "please update my calendar with those WGs and RGs that I know right now I will be interested in next time"). iCal said I had to wait until there was a published agenda... :-) (2) It would be nice if the URL given to iCal was a little more editable. As it is, I can unsubscribe from the calendar and re- subscribe using a new URL. And it would be nice to somehow say "all BOFs" without listing each of them individually. Personally, I would suggest you consider the present tool a mostly- finished product. _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 14 19:09:37 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Wmq-0002BA-4l; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:09:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Wmp-0002B4-2q for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:09:31 -0400 Received: from av9-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.186]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G1Wmm-0001Ud-O5 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:09:31 -0400 Received: by av9-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id E2EED3842C; Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.102]) by av9-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C573842B; Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D515D37E44; Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G1Wmf-0002AZ-0c; Sat, 15 Jul 2006 01:09:25 +0200 Message-ID: <44B82420.1080103@levkowetz.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:09:20 -0400 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] iCal calendar for IETF meetings References: <44AC427F.9030808@levkowetz.com> <62344488-D822-4834-A49A-0BE4E4B7585E@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <62344488-D822-4834-A49A-0BE4E4B7585E@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org on 2006-07-14 07:14 Fred Baker said the following: > Henrik: > > You said something Wednesday evening to the effect that you didn't > know what opinions were regarding the calendar tool. I for one used > it and found it useful. > > My complaints with the tool are in fact iCal complaints, not tool > complaints. > > (1) This morning, I unsubscribed from the IETF 66 calendar and tried > to subscribe to the IETF 67 calendar using the URL > > http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/67/ics/ietf-66+ieprep+nmrg+tsvwg+opsarea > +v6ops+ospf+IETF+tsvarea+tcpm+Technical.ics > > (e.g., "please update my calendar with those WGs and RGs that I know > right now I will be interested in next time"). iCal said I had to > wait until there was a published agenda... :-) Heh :-} > (2) It would be nice if the URL given to iCal was a little more > editable. As it is, I can unsubscribe from the calendar and re- > subscribe using a new URL. And it would be nice to somehow say "all > BOFs" without listing each of them individually. Aha. Ok, I'll think about making some sort of collective names available. > Personally, I would suggest you consider the present tool a mostly- > finished product. Ok, thanks for the feedback :-) Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 18 06:02:37 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2mPV-0001Or-UV; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:02:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2mPU-0001O5-OK; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:02:36 -0400 Received: from mtagate1.uk.ibm.com ([195.212.29.134]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2mPT-00037y-9v; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 06:02:36 -0400 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate1.uk.ibm.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id k6IA2YcQ029832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:02:34 GMT Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.228]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k6IA4971139146 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:04:09 +0100 Received: from d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k6IA2Xem028923; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:02:34 +0100 Received: from mail-gw3.hursley.ibm.com (mail-gw3.hursley.ibm.com [9.20.131.251]) by d06av02.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k6IA2XvI028920; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:02:33 +0100 Received: from [9.20.118.16] (helo=bf1v5-118.hursley.ibm.com) by mail-gw3.hursley.ibm.com with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1G2mPR-0001vJ-H6; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:02:33 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-249-251.de.ibm.com [9.145.249.251]) by bf1v5-118.hursley.ibm.com (AIX5.3/8.11.6p2/8.11.0) with SMTP id k6IA2W53109056; Tue, 18 Jul 2006 11:02:32 +0100 Message-ID: <44BCB1B6.70800@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:02:30 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Kempf Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: Pointers to Issue Trackers References: <44AA873B.7090709@dial.pipex.com> <0c3901c6a21e$9f53ddb0$616015ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> In-Reply-To: <0c3901c6a21e$9f53ddb0$616015ac@dcml.docomolabsusa.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org, Elwyn Davies , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org James Kempf wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elwyn Davies" > To: "Tools Team Discussion" > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:20 AM > Subject: Pointers to Issue Trackers > > >> Many drafts now have associated issue trackers but there is no >> consistent way of finding out where the issue tracker for a given >> draft is located. >> For example, I have just had occasion to make a comment about an issue >> in the ipr wg which I don't normally contribute to. Those involved >> are suggesting putting the issue into the tracker but I can't easily >> cross check what happens without either bothering somebody or delving >> back through the mailing list where I might find a reference. >> >> Two suggestions: >> - If a draft has an issue tracker, put a pointer to it into the draft >> (a standard place/form would help the next suggestion) >> - If possible, add a pointer to the issue tracker to the information >> page in the I-D database entry for the draft. >> > > Why can't this be put on the WG charter Web page? > > At some point, it seems like these additional tools/Web pages which are > "unofficial" need to start getting folded into the "official" IETF pages > for working groups. I think the most practical approach would be for the charter page for the foobar WG to contain a pointer to http://tools.ietf.org/wg/foobar It will always be quicker to get new things into the tools server than into the secretariat system. Brian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 19 18:47:28 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3KpE-0000bF-TL; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:47:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3KpD-0000b0-Ae for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:47:27 -0400 Received: from b.painless.aaisp.net.uk ([2001:8b0:0:81::51bb:5134] helo=smtp.aaisp.net.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Kp9-0000rz-UR for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:47:27 -0400 Received: from 247.254.187.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.187.254.247] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Kp7-0007Kc-3m for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:47:21 +0100 Message-ID: <44BEB733.2070601@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:50:27 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Subject: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi. Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a particular initial letter (on https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree of manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of beers now I am turning into an old fogey. Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I suggest either using . A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) or A B C D E... This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally challenged as compared with a b c d e as we have today. FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the outlines of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the space as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the 'middle' of the outline). /Elwyn _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 20 04:38:13 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3U2o-0003Dx-VW; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 04:38:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3U2o-0003Ds-K2 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 04:38:06 -0400 Received: from av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net ([81.228.9.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3U2j-0007mN-PR for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 04:38:06 -0400 Received: by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F128F37F8B; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:38:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net [81.228.9.102]) by av8-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C783820F; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:37:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp3-2-sn3.vrr.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DEC37E43; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:37:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3U2g-0006d1-16; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:37:58 +0200 Message-ID: <44BF40E5.5010608@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:37:57 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elwyn Davies Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! References: <44BEB733.2070601@dial.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: <44BEB733.2070601@dial.pipex.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: Michael Lee , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Elwyn, (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: > Hi. > > Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a > particular initial letter (on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree of > manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of > beers now I am turning into an old fogey. > > Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I suggest > either using . > A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) > or > A B C D E... This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. > This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally challenged > as compared with > a b c d e > as we have today. > > FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for > some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect > because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the > outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the outlines > of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the space > as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more > closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the 'middle' > of the outline). Yup. One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use Firefox' Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more comfortable for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase letters. Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 20 11:35:14 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aYT-0007NF-OE; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:35:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aYN-0007AY-Gl for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:35:07 -0400 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aLp-0002Ym-Vj for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:22:16 -0400 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DBE7C8E0001; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:21:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.172]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:21:49 +0200 Received: from [147.214.237.61] ([147.214.237.61]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:21:49 +0200 Message-ID: <44BF9F8D.50201@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:21:49 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (Macintosh/20051201) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lee, Michael" Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2006 15:21:49.0315 (UTC) FILETIME=[3872F530:01C6AC10] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Cc: Elwyn Davies , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi Michael, On 2006-07-20 15:47 Lee, Michael said the following: > They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in > between them. That's fast turn-around :-) As for the vertical lines, I would prefer to loose them - they just add clutter. There's no need for them as long as all of the links they separate are single letters, I think. Regards, Henrik > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] >> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM >> To: Elwyn Davies >> Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michael >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >> >> Hi Elwyn, >> >> (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) >> >> on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: >>> Hi. >>> >>> Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a >>> particular initial letter (on >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree > of >>> manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of >>> beers now I am turning into an old fogey. >>> >>> Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I > suggest >>> either using . >>> A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - >>> http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) >>> or >>> A B C D E... >> This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. >> >>> This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally > challenged >>> as compared with >>> a b c d e >>> as we have today. >>> >>> FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for >>> some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect >>> because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the >>> outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the > outlines >>> of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the > space >>> as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more >>> closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the > 'middle' >>> of the outline). >> Yup. >> >> One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use > Firefox' >> Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more > comfortable >> for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase >> letters. >> >> Henrik > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 20 11:57:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3auQ-0006K1-59; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:57:54 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3auN-0006GK-Gu for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:57:51 -0400 Received: from a.painless.aaisp.net.uk ([2001:8b0:0:81::51bb:5133] helo=smtp.aaisp.net.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aee-0006yc-Lp for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:41:38 -0400 Received: from 247.254.187.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.187.254.247] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aeY-0001Bk-8F; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:41:30 +0100 Message-ID: <44BFA4E4.2040209@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:44:36 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! References: <44BF9F8D.50201@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <44BF9F8D.50201@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: a7d2e37451f7f22841e3b6f40c67db0f Cc: "Lee, Michael" , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Yes, indeed.. thanks for the fast turn-around :-) And it does make it easier to drive. As regards the vertical lines, I am undecided. I quite like the result, but maybe it would be good to see the alternative. /Elwyn Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi Michael, > > On 2006-07-20 15:47 Lee, Michael said the following: > >> They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in >> between them. >> > > That's fast turn-around :-) > > As for the vertical lines, I would prefer to loose them - they just > add clutter. There's no need for them as long as all of the links > they separate are single letters, I think. > > Regards, > > Henrik > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM >>> To: Elwyn Davies >>> Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michael >>> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >>> >>> Hi Elwyn, >>> >>> (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) >>> >>> on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: >>> >>>> Hi. >>>> >>>> Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a >>>> particular initial letter (on >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree >>>> >> of >> >>>> manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of >>>> beers now I am turning into an old fogey. >>>> >>>> Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I >>>> >> suggest >> >>>> either using . >>>> A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - >>>> http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) >>>> or >>>> A B C D E... >>>> >>> This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. >>> >>> >>>> This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally >>>> >> challenged >> >>>> as compared with >>>> a b c d e >>>> as we have today. >>>> >>>> FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for >>>> some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect >>>> because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the >>>> outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the >>>> >> outlines >> >>>> of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the >>>> >> space >> >>>> as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more >>>> closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the >>>> >> 'middle' >> >>>> of the outline). >>>> >>> Yup. >>> >>> One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use >>> >> Firefox' >> >>> Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more >>> >> comfortable >> >>> for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase >>> letters. >>> >>> Henrik >>> > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 21 08:28:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3u7d-0007Qx-LM; Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aGm-0001Xx-Mi for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:16:56 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Z2I-0001et-67 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:57:54 -0400 Received: from ns3.neustar.com ([156.154.24.138]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Ysn-0003Ff-Q7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:48:09 -0400 Received: from stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com (smartexch.neustar.com [10.31.13.96]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941A2175A9; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:47:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from stntexch06.cis.neustar.com ([10.31.13.68]) by stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:47:35 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:47:34 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Thread-Index: Acar19DmvP3ALOJhRJGi0x+VxytX9wAKvnsg From: "Lee, Michael" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "Elwyn Davies" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2006 13:47:35.0132 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E4B19C0:01C6AC03] X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:47 -0400 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in between them. Best regards, Michael Lee, IETF Secretariat. > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM > To: Elwyn Davies > Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michael > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >=20 > Hi Elwyn, >=20 > (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) >=20 > on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: > > Hi. > > > > Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a > > particular initial letter (on > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree of > > manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of > > beers now I am turning into an old fogey. > > > > Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I suggest > > either using . > > A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - > > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) > > or > > A B C D E... >=20 > This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. >=20 > > This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally challenged > > as compared with > > a b c d e > > as we have today. > > > > FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for > > some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect > > because the upper case letters have a more even boFrom tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 21 08:28:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3u7d-0007Qx-LM; Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3aGm-0001Xx-Mi for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:16:56 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Z2I-0001et-67 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:57:54 -0400 Received: from ns3.neustar.com ([156.154.24.138]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3Ysn-0003Ff-Q7 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:48:09 -0400 Received: from stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com (smartexch.neustar.com [10.31.13.96]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 941A2175A9; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:47:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from stntexch06.cis.neustar.com ([10.31.13.68]) by stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:47:35 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 09:47:34 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Thread-Index: Acar19DmvP3ALOJhRJGi0x+VxytX9wAKvnsg From: "Lee, Michael" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" , "Elwyn Davies" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2006 13:47:35.0132 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E4B19C0:01C6AC03] X-Spam-Score: -5.7 (-----) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:47 -0400 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in between them. Best regards, Michael Lee, IETF Secretariat. > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM > To: Elwyn Davies > Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michael > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >=20 > Hi Elwyn, >=20 > (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) >=20 > on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: > > Hi. > > > > Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a > > particular initial letter (on > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree of > > manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of > > beers now I am turning into an old fogey. > > > > Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I suggest > > either using . > > A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - > > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) > > or > > A B C D E... >=20 > This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. >=20 > > This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally challenged > > as compared with > > a b c d e > > as we have today. > > > > FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for > > some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect > > because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the > > outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the outlines > > of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the space > > as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more > > closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the 'middle' > > of the outline). >=20 > Yup. >=20 > One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use Firefox' > Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more comfortable > for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase > letters. >=20 > Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 21 08:28:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3u7d-0007R2-PD; Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3cSO-0004AC-2D for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:37:04 -0400 Received: from willow.neustar.com ([209.173.53.84]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3cJN-0000MT-H0 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:47 -0400 Received: from stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com (smartexch.neustar.com [10.31.13.96]) by willow.neustar.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k6KHRh9Q032492; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:27:43 GMT Received: from stntexch06.cis.neustar.com ([10.31.13.68]) by stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:43 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Thread-Index: AcasEEWv+epikOO/Szmz2bVubyVLrgAEXuJg From: "Lee, Michael" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2006 17:27:43.0249 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEF1D010:01C6AC21] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:47 -0400 Cc: Elwyn Davies , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Vertical lines were removed. Michael. > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:22 AM > To: Lee, Michael > Cc: Elwyn Davies; Tools Team Discussion > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > On 2006-07-20 15:47 Lee, Michael said the following: > > They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in > > between them. >=20 > That's fast turn-around :-) >=20 > As for the vertical lines, I would prefer to loose them - they just > add clutter. There's no need for them as long as all of the links > they separate are single letters, I think. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Henrik >=20 > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM > >> To: Elwyn Davies > >> Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michady width and the > > outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the outlines > > of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the space > > as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more > > closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the 'middle' > > of the outline). >=20 > Yup. >=20 > One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use Firefox' > Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more comfortable > for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase > letters. >=20 > Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 21 08:28:54 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3u7d-0007R2-PD; Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3cSO-0004AC-2D for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:37:04 -0400 Received: from willow.neustar.com ([209.173.53.84]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G3cJN-0000MT-H0 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:47 -0400 Received: from stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com (smartexch.neustar.com [10.31.13.96]) by willow.neustar.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k6KHRh9Q032492; Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:27:43 GMT Received: from stntexch06.cis.neustar.com ([10.31.13.68]) by stntsmtp01.cis.neustar.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:43 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:27:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! Thread-Index: AcasEEWv+epikOO/Szmz2bVubyVLrgAEXuJg From: "Lee, Michael" To: "Henrik Levkowetz" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2006 17:27:43.0249 (UTC) FILETIME=[CEF1D010:01C6AC21] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Jul 2006 08:28:47 -0400 Cc: Elwyn Davies , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Vertical lines were removed. Michael. > -----Original Message----- > From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:22 AM > To: Lee, Michael > Cc: Elwyn Davies; Tools Team Discussion > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > On 2006-07-20 15:47 Lee, Michael said the following: > > They are now in upper cases with vertical lines and extra spaces in > > between them. >=20 > That's fast turn-around :-) >=20 > As for the vertical lines, I would prefer to loose them - they just > add clutter. There's no need for them as long as all of the links > they separate are single letters, I think. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Henrik >=20 > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Henrik Levkowetz [mailto:henrik@levkowetz.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 4:38 AM > >> To: Elwyn Davies > >> Cc: Tools Team Discussion; Lee, Michael > >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! > >> > >> Hi Elwyn, > >> > >> (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) > >> > >> on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: > >>> Hi. > >>> > >>> Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a > >>> particular initial letter (on > >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree > > of > >>> manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of > >>> beers now I am turning into an old fogey. > >>> > >>> Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I > > suggest > >>> either using . > >>> A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - > >>> http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) > >>> or > >>> A B C D E... > >> This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. > >> > >>> This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally > > challenged > >>> as compared with > >>> a b c d e > >>> as we have today. > >>> > >>> FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for > >>> some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect > >>> because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the > >>> outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the > > outlines > >>> of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the > > space > >>> as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more > >>> closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the > > 'middle' > >>> of the outline). > >> Yup. > >> > >> One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use > > Firefox' > >> Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more > > comfortable > >> for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase > >> letters. > >> > >> Henrik > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss el > >> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Help the aged! > >> > >> Hi Elwyn, > >> > >> (adding a Cc. to Michael as this is his bailiwick) > >> > >> on 2006-07-20 00:50 Elwyn Davies said the following: > >>> Hi. > >>> > >>> Hitting the 'links' for selecting drafts for wgs and authors with a > >>> particular initial letter (on > >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/idindex.cgi) requires a degree > > of > >>> manual dexterity that I find a tiny bit difficult after a couple of > >>> beers now I am turning into an old fogey. > >>> > >>> Without taking up significantly more screen real estate can I > > suggest > >>> either using . > >>> A|B|C|D|E... (as per the watersprings interface - > >>> http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/) > >>> or > >>> A B C D E... > >> This variation would seem to be the most preferred for me. > >> > >>> This gives about 15-20% more dither room for the positionally > > challenged > >>> as compared with > >>> a b c d e > >>> as we have today. > >>> > >>> FWIW I find it a lot easier to zero in on the upper case version for > >>> some reason (this may be at least partially a psychological effect > >>> because the upper case letters have a more even body width and the > >>> outlines tend to enclose more of the 'active' space whereas the > > outlines > >>> of the lower case letters only occupy a smaller proportion of the > > space > >>> as well as having narrower bodies leading to them being kerned more > >>> closely together - I guess one naturally tries to click on the > > 'middle' > >>> of the outline). > >> Yup. > >> > >> One more thing: An additional way of approaching this is to use > > Firefox' > >> Command-+ (or Control-+) to enlarge the text so it feels more > > comfortable > >> for navigation. But I still think it makes sense to go with uppercase > >> letters. > >> > >> Henrik > > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 22 08:25:31 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4GXy-0000G6-17; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:25:30 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Dfo-000418-1o for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 05:21:24 -0400 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.174]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Dfj-0001cg-NF for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 05:21:24 -0400 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m2so1678767uge for ; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=gJ4cb1Xd+6SkJEv4jAFR4qWgL8+jK9W9Y7CghWYUX3FxvEcYWG7PbSxR/W2e2bPk63z3MJYcn0m9Tfj88q1HWMUJ7d4NeTKJQrOHpkRNpzRyfuVuRvtzwMtpTgPeU3gQH2YdJHpuf39xsGxcEP0d5G6RcLyRAWlVO8hXXzI/yXQ= Received: by 10.78.139.5 with SMTP id m5mr744929hud; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.131.12 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7431f8c50607220221v4a6b2023rbc5489903ad05101@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:21:18 +0200 From: "rfc view" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:25:29 -0400 Subject: [Tools-discuss] RFC viewer tool submission X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2058386713==" Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --===============2058386713== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_192299_30386163.1153560078709" ------=_Part_192299_30386163.1153560078709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would like to inform you the availability of a new graphical RFC viewer software named qRFCView. (http://qrfcview.berlios.de/). It was developed by myself and is distributed under the GPL license. Main advantages are: * automatic table of content, with direct opening of section; * handling of RFC internal cross-references; * automatic downloading of a referenced RFC from the IETF web site on a simple click; * caching of RFC in a local directory; * tab-browsing of RFC; * searching. It is available for the Linux and Windows operating systems (and potentially MacOS X). Current release is 0.62 and can be freely downloaded from BerliOS at http://developer.berlios.de/projects/qrfcview/. Is it possible to add a link in your website if this kind of software looks relevant for the IETF community? Sincerely yours, R. Rollet ------=_Part_192299_30386163.1153560078709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I would like to inform you the availability of a new graphical RFC viewer software named qRFCView. (http://qrfcview.berlios.de/). It was developed by myself and is distributed under the GPL license. Main advantages are:

    * automatic table of content, with direct opening of section;
    * handling of RFC internal cross-references;
    * automatic downloading of a referenced RFC from the IETF web site on a simple click;
    * caching of RFC in a local directory;
    * tab-browsing of RFC;
    * searching.

It is available for the Linux and Windows operating systems (and potentially MacOS X).
Current release is 0.62 and can be freely downloaded from BerliOS at http://developer.berlios.de/projects/qrfcview/.

Is it possible to add a link in your website if this kind of software looks relevant for the IETF community?

Sincerely yours,
R. Rollet


------=_Part_192299_30386163.1153560078709-- --===============2058386713== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --===============2058386713==-- From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 22 11:16:25 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4JDG-0001Dn-Gh; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:16:18 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4JDF-0001DY-Ju for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:16:17 -0400 Received: from av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4JDD-00084i-4K for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:16:17 -0400 Received: by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 4CDA738075; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.92]) by av10-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388D038075; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp4-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0E137E45; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:16:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G4JCv-000283-RZ; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:16:12 +0200 Message-ID: <44C2412D.1000705@levkowetz.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 17:15:57 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rfc view Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] RFC viewer tool submission References: <7431f8c50607220221v4a6b2023rbc5489903ad05101@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7431f8c50607220221v4a6b2023rbc5489903ad05101@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi R., on 2006-07-22 11:21 rfc view said the following: > I would like to inform you the availability of a new graphical RFC viewer > software named qRFCView. (http://qrfcview.berlios.de/). It was developed by > myself and is distributed under the GPL license. Main advantages are: > > * automatic table of content, with direct opening of section; > * handling of RFC internal cross-references; > * automatic downloading of a referenced RFC from the IETF web site on a > simple click; > * caching of RFC in a local directory; > * tab-browsing of RFC; > * searching. > > It is available for the Linux and Windows operating systems (and potentially > MacOS X). > Current release is 0.62 and can be freely downloaded from BerliOS at > http://developer.berlios.de/projects/qrfcview/. > > Is it possible to add a link in your website if this kind of software looks > relevant for the IETF community? It looks like a nice tool :-) and I'd be happy to add a link either to one of the Tool Inventory categories on http://tools.ietf.org/, or possibly add a new category if no current one will fit. Would you care to take a look at the categories (Verification tools, Workgroup tools, etc.) and tool descriptions and propose a suitable one- or two-paragraph description of qRFCView? It'll then be easy for me to add a link and the description. Regards, Henrik > > Sincerely yours, > R. Rollet _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 22 18:20:20 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4PpV-0005vb-Oj; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:20:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4PpU-0005p1-1q for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:20:12 -0400 Received: from av11-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.183]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4PpR-0004xe-Ml for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:20:12 -0400 Received: by av11-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id F35FA37F05; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.93]) by av11-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A8837E9F for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80F437E42 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G4PpO-0005Xg-1q; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:20:07 +0200 Message-ID: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:20:05 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Document Map X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Julian Reschke just pointed me to a Firefox plugin and suggested some enhancements to the rfcmarkup scripts which together gives a result which strikes me as very cool :-) : The plugin is "Document Map" (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/475/), and it provides the possibility of showing a document's structure of section headers and sub-headers in Firefox' sidebar, for easy navigation of a large document. One of the enhancements suggested by Julian was to add section header tags to the htmlized version of RFCs produced by rfcmarkup, so that the structure of the document will be visible and navigable in the sidebar. I've just added this, and I'm really really happy with the result - having a sidebar showing the structure of sections and sub-sections of a document, and being able to expand and collapse the structure and click on a section name to navigate to it I find really really cool :-) If you want to try it out, get the plugin, restart your browser, and go to your RFC of choice, for instance http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2460 Thanks, Julian! Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 22 19:13:45 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4QfE-000708-Q6; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:13:40 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4QfE-000700-9r for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:13:40 -0400 Received: from a.painless.aaisp.net.uk ([2001:8b0:0:81::51bb:5133] helo=smtp.aaisp.net.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4QfC-000280-Ml for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:13:40 -0400 Received: from 247.254.187.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.187.254.247] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Qf9-0000fz-Dy; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:13:35 +0100 Message-ID: <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 00:16:40 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Document Map References: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Yes! Nice one. Do we know what triggers the expand/contract icon for revealing/hiding sub-sections? The sample htmlized text does it but the standard html output from xml2rfc doesn't. There doesn't seem to be much uin the way of documentation.. but I could always go and knock on Mr Grahams door I suppose! Regards, Elwyn Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Hi, > > Julian Reschke just pointed me to a Firefox plugin and suggested > some enhancements to the rfcmarkup scripts which together gives a > result which strikes me as very cool :-) : > > The plugin is "Document Map" (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/475/), > and it provides the possibility of showing a document's structure of > section headers and sub-headers in Firefox' sidebar, for easy > navigation of a large document. > > One of the enhancements suggested by Julian was to add section header > tags to the htmlized version of RFCs produced by rfcmarkup, so that > the structure of the document will be visible and navigable in the > sidebar. > > I've just added this, and I'm really really happy with the result - > having a sidebar showing the structure of sections and sub-sections > of a document, and being able to expand and collapse the structure > and click on a section name to navigate to it I find really really > cool :-) > > If you want to try it out, get the plugin, restart your browser, and go > to your RFC of choice, for instance http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2460 > > Thanks, Julian! > > > Regards, > > Henrik > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 22 19:28:41 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Qtl-0007ri-Ml; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:28:41 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Qtk-0007rd-En for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:28:40 -0400 Received: from av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.179]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4Qth-0004H4-Us for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sat, 22 Jul 2006 19:28:40 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 20E6A38080; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:28:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.93]) by av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D7537E4F; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:28:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B493537E42; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:28:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G4Qte-00026I-5E; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:28:36 +0200 Message-ID: <44C2B4A2.4000302@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:28:34 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elwyn Davies Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Document Map References: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Cc: Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org on 2006-07-23 01:16 Elwyn Davies said the following: > Yes! Nice one. > > Do we know what triggers the expand/contract icon for revealing/hiding > sub-sections? As far as I can tell, this is triggered by the existence of sub-section header tags - if top level sections are marked with

, and there are nested

with nested

, you'll have 2 expandable levels. > The sample htmlized text does it but the standard html output from > xml2rfc doesn't. Aha. I haven't checked whether the html output from xml2rfc use nested tags. If it does, my theory above breaks down. > There doesn't seem to be much uin the way of documentation.. but I could > always go and knock on Mr Grahams door I suppose! Right ;-) Best, Henrik > Regards, > Elwyn > > > Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Julian Reschke just pointed me to a Firefox plugin and suggested >> some enhancements to the rfcmarkup scripts which together gives a >> result which strikes me as very cool :-) : >> >> The plugin is "Document Map" (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/475/), >> and it provides the possibility of showing a document's structure of >> section headers and sub-headers in Firefox' sidebar, for easy >> navigation of a large document. >> >> One of the enhancements suggested by Julian was to add section header >> tags to the htmlized version of RFCs produced by rfcmarkup, so that >> the structure of the document will be visible and navigable in the >> sidebar. >> >> I've just added this, and I'm really really happy with the result - >> having a sidebar showing the structure of sections and sub-sections >> of a document, and being able to expand and collapse the structure >> and click on a section name to navigate to it I find really really >> cool :-) >> >> If you want to try it out, get the plugin, restart your browser, and go >> to your RFC of choice, for instance http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2460 >> >> Thanks, Julian! >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Henrik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list >> Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 23 02:47:26 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4XkG-0001v1-P7; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 02:47:20 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4XkF-0001ut-LO for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 02:47:19 -0400 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4XkC-0000C7-70 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 02:47:19 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Jul 2006 06:47:14 -0000 Received: from p508FB3A1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.22]) [80.143.179.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp009) with SMTP; 23 Jul 2006 08:47:14 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <44C31B64.1050800@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 08:47:00 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henrik Levkowetz Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Document Map References: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> <44C2B4A2.4000302@levkowetz.com> In-Reply-To: <44C2B4A2.4000302@levkowetz.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: Elwyn Davies , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Henrik Levkowetz schrieb: >> The sample htmlized text does it but the standard html output from >> xml2rfc doesn't. > > Aha. I haven't checked whether the html output from xml2rfc use nested > tags. If it does, my theory above breaks down. > ... As far as I can tell, xml2rfc fails to use the proper h? element, that is, all heading use the same HTML element. This seems to be a bug, AFAIR earlier version did work better (although they did not use anything "above" h3). You may want to try it with the output of rfc2629.xslt () instead. > ... Best regards, Julian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 23 04:52:34 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4ZhS-0002Ej-97; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:52:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4ZhR-0002Ed-7Y for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:52:33 -0400 Received: from drakken.dbc.mtview.ca.us ([168.143.123.173]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4ZhP-0005W2-RT for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 04:52:33 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by drakken.dbc.mtview.ca.us (8.12.11/8.12.8) with ESMTP id k6N8qQSp011506; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 01:52:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <44C31B64.1050800@gmx.de> References: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> <44C2B4A2.4000302@levkowetz.com> <44C31B64.1050800@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marshall Rose Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Document Map Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:52:18 +0300 To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Bill Fenner , Elwyn Davies , Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org > As far as I can tell, xml2rfc fails to use the proper h? element, > that is, all heading use the same HTML element. This seems to be a > bug, AFAIR earlier version did work better (although they did not > use anything "above" h3). julian - specifically, what change do you want the html generator for xml2rfc? /mtr ps: it won't make it into 1.31 that is coming out on monday, but it will make it in to 1.32pre1 /mtr _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 23 05:18:06 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4a6A-0008KS-4S; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 05:18:06 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4a69-0008KM-K1 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 05:18:05 -0400 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4a68-00016U-71 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 05:18:05 -0400 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 23 Jul 2006 09:18:02 -0000 Received: from p508FB3A1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.178.22]) [80.143.179.161] by mail.gmx.net (mp019) with SMTP; 23 Jul 2006 11:18:02 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1915285 Message-ID: <44C33EBB.8050409@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 11:17:47 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marshall Rose Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Document Map References: <44C2A495.2080202@levkowetz.com> <44C2B1D8.4040003@dial.pipex.com> <44C2B4A2.4000302@levkowetz.com> <44C31B64.1050800@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Cc: Bill Fenner , Elwyn Davies , Henrik Levkowetz , Tools Team Discussion X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Marshall Rose schrieb: >> As far as I can tell, xml2rfc fails to use the proper h? element, that >> is, all heading use the same HTML element. This seems to be a bug, >> AFAIR earlier version did work better (although they did not use >> anything "above" h3). > > julian - specifically, what change do you want the html generator for > xml2rfc? It should use header elements that fit the section nesting. Right now it always seems to use

. > ... Best regards, Julian _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 23 15:09:24 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4jKJ-0001Wc-PQ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:09:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4jKI-0001WX-L9 for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:09:18 -0400 Received: from av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net ([81.228.8.179]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4jKH-00080n-6Y for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 15:09:18 -0400 Received: by av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 95E943844B; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net [81.228.8.93]) by av9-1-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8867D37FA9 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from shiraz.levkowetz.com (81-232-110-214-no16.tbcn.telia.com [81.232.110.214]) by smtp4-2-sn2.hy.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7968137E42 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by shiraz.levkowetz.com with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G4jKF-0001tb-GG; Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:15 +0200 Message-ID: <44C3C95B.6040600@levkowetz.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:09:15 +0200 From: Henrik Levkowetz User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tools Team Discussion X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on shiraz.levkowetz.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Subject: [Tools-discuss] rfcmarkup changes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I've added a number of changes to the rfcmarkup tool over the last two days, many of them triggered by Julian Reschke, but some also by the qRFCView program (see http://www1.tools.ietf.org/inventory/reading-tools). A number of these changes affect the way the htmlized RFCs and drafts available from http://tools.ietf.org/html/ are rendered, and I'd like feedback on how the changes work out. I've tested the changes under several browsers, including Firefox, Opera, Lynx and an old version of Explorer on Mac, but that probably doesn't cover the majority of users, so feedback is needed. The changes that influence how the HTMLized drafts are rendered also could be slightly controversial, so also in this respect I'd like you to check out the changes and provide feedback. Visual changes: * Normalized white-space at the beginning of documents. The white-space is now normalized to 3 blank lines plus the area for obsoleted/updated/errata notices at the top. * Page header and footer text is now greyed out in the on-screen version. When printing, the headers and footers should appear as normal. * Page break css instructions for printing. This should make modern browsers print the documents with correct page breaks. * Printed versions of the HTMLized RFCs now don't show the html links as underlined blue. * Added a visual page break indication (a document-width solid line) in the screen view. * Document title and section titles are now set in bold, rather than normal font. * The shortcut icon has been enabled, so if your browser supports it, you should see a special shortcut icon indicating an HTMLized RFC. Does this look good to you all? Is there anything that should be reverted, or additional tweaks to add? Regards, Henrik _______________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list Tools-discuss@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 24 05:45:56 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4x0d-0001NE-RW; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 05:45:55 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4x0c-0001N9-1x for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 05:45:54 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G4x0a-00007I-NI for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 05:45:54 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1G4x0V-0007u7-Kz for tools-discuss@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:45:47 +0200 Received: from pd9fba92d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([217.251.169.45]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:45:47 +0200 Received: from nobody by pd9fba92d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:45:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Frank Ellermann Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:44:00 +0200 Organization: Lines: 42 Message-ID: <44C49660.609D@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <44C3C95B.6040600@levkowetz.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: pd9fba92d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: rfcmarkup changes X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > Does this look good to you all? No, the old version as near as possible to the "real" document was better. Please get rid of those strange

. It's ugly for titles needing more than one line, if only the first line is big. Maybe use some fancy CSS colours or classes for such decorations, but please no XHTML.

etc. within 
 is
also invalid.

The page divider lines are unnecessary decorations, please use
CSS classes for such effects.  And please use external CSS, not
inline CSS.  Folks who like this can then create their own "RfC
skins" (shudder).

The class=grey" etc. stuff should be good enough.  You need an
additional id="xyz" whereever you have name="xyz" in anchors.
Maybe replace the dubious self-links href="#xyz" by id="xyz".

The self closing  is unusual, better don't
use it unless you're 100% sure that it's valid and allowed in
all normative and non-normative XHTML appendices,   If that's
the case you would need  adding a space.

Your logic to determine the header level is wrong, you should
get exactly one "h1" (to be replaced by a span class), all the
other h1 (now) should be some ersatz-"h2", all h2 should be an
ersatz-"h3", etc. 

A link to the plain text version would be nice, maybe in the
last line.  What's the idea of meta robots nofollow ?  And why
are there two identical link rel icons ?  One should be enough,
or is that a workaround for some browsers ? 

Please add lang="en" xml:lang="en" and the xmlns to the .

The charset=iso-8859-1 is unlikely, if all is well that should
be us-ascii.  At some point in time it will be utf-8.

Frank



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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 24 06:32:32 2006
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: rfcmarkup changes
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Hi Frank,

on 2006-07-24 11:44 Frank Ellermann said the following:
> Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
>> Does this look good to you all?
> 
> No, the old version as near as possible to the "real" document
> was better.

Hmm.  In that case I probably have to provide two versions, as
there seems to be too many things you comment on below for which
there are functional (not appearance) reasons.

> Please get rid of those strange 
.  It's ugly
> for titles needing more than one line, if only the first line
> is big.

The style sheet makes all the  tags the same size as the
rest of the text - which browser did you use which made them big,
and can we find a workaround?  The purpose of the  tags
was covered in my post with subject "Document Map" yesterday,
and is to provide additional functionality, not appearance.

If the  tags provide text with the same size as the rest
of the doucment, are you OK with the intended appearance change
of making the section titles bold?

>  Maybe use some fancy CSS colours or classes for such
> decorations, but please no XHTML.  
 etc. within 
 is
> also invalid.

I know.  I started using 
, but that
broke lynx, so in order to support text-mode browsing with lynx
I chose to be pragmatic rather than pure.

> The page divider lines are unnecessary decorations, please use
> CSS classes for such effects.  And please use external CSS, not
> inline CSS.  Folks who like this can then create their own "RfC
> skins" (shudder).

The page divider lines can be skipped altogether if people don't
like them.  The main reason to use the current implementation was
again to provide support for lynx.

> The class=grey" etc. stuff should be good enough.  You need an
> additional id="xyz" whereever you have name="xyz" in anchors.
> Maybe replace the dubious self-links href="#xyz" by id="xyz".

The self-links were on request, I can loose them if most people
don't like them.  The purpose is to show that there is an anchor
here which you can link to.  Providing both id and name is no
problem.

> The self closing  is unusual, better don't
> use it unless you're 100% sure that it's valid and allowed in
> all normative and non-normative XHTML appendices,   If that's
> the case you would need  adding a space.

Tested with validator, added space.  Why would this not be valid?

> Your logic to determine the header level is wrong, you should
> get exactly one "h1" (to be replaced by a span class), all the
> other h1 (now) should be some ersatz-"h2", all h2 should be an
> ersatz-"h3", etc. 

Why?  This is not immediately obvious to me.  There is no reason
why there can't be more than one 
 level in a document, as
far as I can see??

When you suggest a span class instead of  you seem to be
assuming that the purpose is cosmetic rather than functional, but
the opposite is the case, as mentioned above, and the spans
would not provide the desired structure information.

> A link to the plain text version would be nice, maybe in the
> last line.

Good point.  Why not at the top, though?

>  What's the idea of meta robots nofollow ?

Currently, the documents are re-generated on each access, and I'm
worried about the server load if robots follow all the links too
often.  I plan to change this as soon as I've converted to static
files, something I've started working on, but not completed.

>  And why
> are there two identical link rel icons ?

There aren't -

> One should be enough,
> or is that a workaround for some browsers ? 

There's one with rel="icon", and one with rel="shortcut icon".
And yes, it's a result of browser non-standardization...

> Please add lang="en" xml:lang="en" and the xmlns to the .

Done.

> The charset=iso-8859-1 is unlikely, if all is well that should
> be us-ascii.  At some point in time it will be utf-8.

True.


Thanks,

	Henrik

> Frank

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Frank Ellermann schrieb:
> No, the old version as near as possible to the "real" document
> was better.  Please get rid of those strange 
.  It's ugly
> for titles needing more than one line, if only the first line
> is big.  Maybe use some fancy CSS colours or classes for such
> decorations, but please no XHTML.  
 etc. within 
 is
> also invalid.

What does this have to do with XHTML? 
 and friends have been around 
since the beginning...

> The class=grey" etc. stuff should be good enough.  You need an
> additional id="xyz" whereever you have name="xyz" in anchors.

Actually, it's better to *replace* "name" by "id".

> The self closing  is unusual, better don't
> use it unless you're 100% sure that it's valid and allowed in
> all normative and non-normative XHTML appendices,   If that's
> the case you would need  adding a space.

The above notation would be a hack for user agents that do not support 
XHTML (such as IE). I think it's better to not to serve XHTML as HTML, 
but to use HTML4 in the first place.

> Your logic to determine the header level is wrong, you should
> get exactly one "h1" (to be replaced by a span class), all the
> other h1 (now) should be some ersatz-"h2", all h2 should be an
> ersatz-"h3", etc. 

Why?

> A link to the plain text version would be nice, maybe in the
> last line.  What's the idea of meta robots nofollow ?  And why
> are there two identical link rel icons ?  One should be enough,
> or is that a workaround for some browsers ? 
> 
> Please add lang="en" xml:lang="en" and the xmlns to the .
> 
> The charset=iso-8859-1 is unlikely, if all is well that should
> be us-ascii.  At some point in time it will be utf-8.

Well, if it's ASCII, it will be ISO-8859-1 as well (by definition). On 
the other hand, it may be suboptimal if the charset (as supplied by the 
web server) and the actual charset (as given in the content) disagree.

Best regards, Julian

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Hi,

Regarding this:

>>  What's the idea of meta robots nofollow ?
>=20
> Currently, the documents are re-generated on each access, and I'm
> worried about the server load if robots follow all the links too
> often.  I plan to change this as soon as I've converted to static
> files, something I've started working on, but not completed.

It's now in place, and seems to work well.  There's now a 404 error
handler script that will attempt to generate any missing htmlized
version of an RFC or draft if the file doesn't exist; otherwise
the file is served from disk.  URLs without an html extension is
handled with http negotiation, resulting in the html file being
served without script intervention.

If you see any anomalies, please let me know.


Best,

	Henrik



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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 24 18:21:24 2006
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Re: rfcmarkup changes
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Julian Reschke wrote:

>> 
 etc. within 
 is also invalid.

> What does this have to do with XHTML? 
 and friends have
> been around since the beginning...

A 
 etc. within 
 would be also invalid for HTML 4.01,
The rfcmarkup script creates XHTML 1, that's fine from my POV.

>> You need an additional id="xyz" whereever you have
>> name="xyz" in anchors.

> Actually, it's better to *replace* "name" by "id".

But that would break backwards compatibility for no compelling
reason.  My browser couldn't use id="x" only, without name="x".

>> you would need  adding a space.

> The above notation would be a hack for user agents that do
> not support XHTML (such as IE).

Yes, XHTML appendices C.2 and C.3 (informative).  It's AFAIK
always possible to get this right, if all else fails simply try
.  Or here add the class="break" to
class="grey" / class="light" in an adjacent non-empty span.

> I think it's better to not to serve XHTML as HTML, but to use
> HTML4 in the first place.

I found that XHTML transitional is the best way to get valid
documents working with "any" browser (for HTML 3.2 or better),
if I stay away from a few HTML 4.01 only contructs like .

>> all the other h1 (now) should be some ersatz-"h2", all h2
>> should be an ersatz-"h3", etc.

> Why?

Because there is excatly one 
 in a document, before any
following 
.  And there's no 
 without a preceding 
,
etc.  "Abusing" 
 etc. for decorative purposes, e.g. because

 is "nicer" than 
 with a specific browser, isn't the
idea of these elements.

For some time I did this, abusing 
 instead of 
 because
I didn't like the 
 in my browsers.  But that was stupid.

> Well, if it's ASCII, it will be ISO-8859-1 as well (by
> definition).

Depends, ISO 8859-1 allows to use characters which might be not
available on the other side, a Russian mobile device or another
very odd constellation.  Admittedly Latin-1 used to be the HTML
default long enough - and AFAIK it still is the HTTP default -
that it should work everywhere.

Henrik already fixed it, and one of the three tools servers
doesn't send any inconsistent info in its header - tested with
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2277

Frank



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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 24 21:51:59 2006
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Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

> I probably have to provide two versions, as there seems to
> be too many things you comment on below for which there are
> functional (not appearance) reasons.

Maybe, but there are already many sites and tools "beautifying"
(= "mutilating" in my terminology) RFCs like faqs.org or the
HTML output of xml2rfc.  And xml2rfc is better suited for this
task, it has the complete meta data - that's the only part I
missed in the old rfcmarkup output.

> The style sheet makes all the  tags the same size as the
> rest of the text - which browser did you use which made them
> big, and can we find a workaround?

None of my four browsers support CSS, for Netscape 4.x because
I disabled its strange implementation baseed on JSS.  I never
tried to use header elements avoiding all their side effects
for legacy browsers, but maybe it's possible.

1: For valid (X)HTML you'd need ...
...
...
   instead of only .........
2: 
 is probably hopeless, all browsers I know and googlebot
   have their own ideas how to display or use header level 1.
3: 
 it roughly (!) the same as  with my browsers,
   see also   If
   that's also the case elsewhere you could try to "diasable"
   it with 
...
,
   similar 
...
, disabling 

   needs only , for 
 you get , and finally you
   hit 
...


   This would still shift headers to the left margin.  In the
   case of RFCs maybe some columns too much, I didn't test it.
   An ugly hack, better forget it, it's broken by design.

   There simply is no  in monospaced US ASCII plain text,
   and retrofitting  into these documents with CSS hacks to
   disable its side effects doesn't work.

> The purpose of the  tags was covered in my post with
> subject "Document Map" yesterday

Okay, some obscure plugin for a browser I don't and can't use,
I read his message.  But until yesterday rfcmarkup preserved
the original ASCII look and feel, adding working links and
anchors, plus some meta data before the original text.

Apparently we disagree about the purpose of this HTML tool.
I could get "enhanced" RFCs at faqs.org if I'd want them.

> I started using 
, but that
> broke lynx, so in order to support text-mode browsing with
> lynx I chose to be pragmatic rather than pure.

It was perfect until Saturday - probably it was also valid, I
never had a reason to check this.   You can try  magic
within 
, but as soon as you leave 
 you've lost the
original look and feel.  No surprise, "pre" means "preserve".

AFAIK 
 is the only element where an xml:space="preserve"
attribute is allowed - and pointless, it's implied by 
.

> The page divider lines can be skipped altogether if people
> don't like them.  The main reason to use the current
> implementation was again to provide support for lynx.

I'm no regular Lynx user, I only start it for testing, or for
very strange cases (like idnits) where my Netscapes both fail.

If I test http://tools.ietf.org/html/4408 with Lynx the result
is ugly, a yellow on blue "Sender Policy Framework (SPF) for

, then two blank lines, followed by the rest of the real
header, here "Authorizing Use of Domains in E-Mail, Version 1".

If you want to disable all 
 side effects for this and other
browsers you need the complete "real" header (here two lines),
something in this direction:


1st line

2nd line
.  Or maybe try

 instead of 
, my source claims that
the browser support for 
 is better.

But 
 only because one tool
can do interesting things with 
, potentially destroying the
original look and feel for other browsers, is this desirable ?

>> Maybe replace the dubious self-links href="#xyz" by id="xyz"

> The self-links were on request, I can loose them if most
> people don't like them.  The purpose is to show that there is
> an anchor here which you can link to.

That should be obvious in the ToC, and guessing the format of a
few anchors not mentioned in the ToC like #page-1 is no rocket
science.  In  I tried
a "manual XHTML-ficication" some years ago, and there I linked
all "[page nn]" to the ToC (allowing to skip the boilerplate
before the ToC from any page).  Not important, only an idea.

>> If that's the case you would need 
>> adding a space.

> Tested with validator, added space.  Why would this not be
> valid?

Now I checked it, 
appendix C,3 says "don't" - maybe some browsers don't like it,

My favourite browser doesn't know what a  is, self-closed
or not, so from my POV it's only a theoretical problem.  But I
wouldn't dare violate a guideline where I've no clue what its
purpose is, e.g. C.2 and C.16 are important for my browsers.

> There is no reason why there can't be more than one 

> level in a document, as far as I can see??

I've forgotten where I "learned" that, maybe it's wrong.  It's
not in the QA tip 

> When you suggest a span class instead of  you seem to be
> assuming that the purpose is cosmetic rather than functional,

Maybe "breaking the original look and feel of the documents for
the functionality offered by an obscure plugin for one specific
browser while hurting others" is more precise, but it doesn't
change the issue.

>> A link to the plain text version would be nice, maybe in the
>> last line.

> Good point.  Why not at the top, though?

Also fine, I'd use it rarely, download for offline reading.

> one with rel="icon", and one with rel="shortcut icon".

Yes, I thought that rel="shortcut icon" is a space-separated
enumeration of relations, same idea as for a class=, checking:

http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/sgml/dtd.html#LinkTypes

> And yes, it's a result of browser non-standardization...

The URL for both icon relationships is the same, this probably
works as expected.  If the browsers wanting the separate "icon"
link also support PNG as favicon, I can't tell what old IEs do.

Bye, Frank



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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] iCal calendar for IETF meetings
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I used the tool, found it very useful, and had no problems - many  
thanks.

I don't know if others would like this but for me, being able to say  
add all WG in a given area would be useful. This would be icing on  
the cake and and I find the tool totally useable without this.

As a super bonus, if the tool took all the agendas for the meetings I  
selected, pulled out anything that looked like draft-* and put all  
those names into a file that was my "reading list", that would be  
great. Since everyone likes to print in different ways, I would find  
the list of file names more useful than a PDF of the drafts.


On Jul 14, 2006, at 4:14 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

> Henrik:
>
> You said something Wednesday evening to the effect that you didn't  
> know what opinions were regarding the calendar tool. I for one used  
> it and found it useful.
>
> My complaints with the tool are in fact iCal complaints, not tool  
> complaints.
>
> (1) This morning, I unsubscribed from the IETF 66 calendar and  
> tried to subscribe to the IETF 67 calendar using the URL
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/67/ics/ietf-66+ieprep+nmrg+tsvwg 
> +opsarea+v6ops+ospf+IETF+tsvarea+tcpm+Technical.ics
>
> (e.g., "please update my calendar with those WGs and RGs that I  
> know right now I will be interested in next time"). iCal said I had  
> to wait until there was a published agenda... :-)
>
> (2) It would be nice if the URL given to iCal was a little more  
> editable. As it is, I can unsubscribe from the calendar and re- 
> subscribe using a new URL. And it would be nice to somehow say "all  
> BOFs" without listing each of them individually.
>
> Personally, I would suggest you consider the present tool a mostly- 
> finished product.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 24 23:26:45 2006
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I will chime in with a "me too"  and a couple of observations of the  
things that made the current version
particularly useful to me (I will be sad if this tool goes away):

There were two primary use cases I exercised with this tool
    1) Planning for the meeting: Having the imbedded links to each  
session's agenda is extremely useful.
         Having links to the drafts as Cullen suggest would make it  
even better (I think a working link to the .txt
         would be more useful than just the names of the drafts).
    2) Navigation at the meeting itself: Having the accurate room  
information on the subject line (so that it shows
         up in the summary presented on most of the PDAs you might  
sync a calendar to) was a huge time and
         confusion saver for me and several people I talked to.  
Please guard this particular feature aggressively.

For future icing, I might also suggest poking at a way to get the app  
to remember the groups I selected at the
last meeting and start with those selected next time around (maybe  
getting the tool to mail a link or just a chunk
of text along with the generated calendar that can be optionally fed  
into the processing for the next meeting).

Thanks for the effort that's going into this,

RjS

On Jul 23, 2006, at 10:59 AM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

>
> I used the tool, found it very useful, and had no problems - many  
> thanks.
>
> I don't know if others would like this but for me, being able to  
> say add all WG in a given area would be useful. This would be icing  
> on the cake and and I find the tool totally useable without this.
>
> As a super bonus, if the tool took all the agendas for the meetings  
> I selected, pulled out anything that looked like draft-* and put  
> all those names into a file that was my "reading list", that would  
> be great. Since everyone likes to print in different ways, I would  
> find the list of file names more useful than a PDF of the drafts.
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2006, at 4:14 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
>
>> Henrik:
>>
>> You said something Wednesday evening to the effect that you didn't  
>> know what opinions were regarding the calendar tool. I for one  
>> used it and found it useful.
>>
>> My complaints with the tool are in fact iCal complaints, not tool  
>> complaints.
>>
>> (1) This morning, I unsubscribed from the IETF 66 calendar and  
>> tried to subscribe to the IETF 67 calendar using the URL
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/67/ics/ietf-66+ieprep+nmrg+tsvwg 
>> +opsarea+v6ops+ospf+IETF+tsvarea+tcpm+Technical.ics
>>
>> (e.g., "please update my calendar with those WGs and RGs that I  
>> know right now I will be interested in next time"). iCal said I  
>> had to wait until there was a published agenda... :-)
>>
>> (2) It would be nice if the URL given to iCal was a little more  
>> editable. As it is, I can unsubscribe from the calendar and re- 
>> subscribe using a new URL. And it would be nice to somehow say  
>> "all BOFs" without listing each of them individually.
>>
>> Personally, I would suggest you consider the present tool a mostly- 
>> finished product.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


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Frank Ellermann schrieb:
> 
>>> You need an additional id="xyz" whereever you have
>>> name="xyz" in anchors.
> 
>> Actually, it's better to *replace* "name" by "id".
> 
> But that would break backwards compatibility for no compelling
> reason.  My browser couldn't use id="x" only, without name="x".

So your browser doesn't support HTML 4, which has been around since 
1998? But it *does* CSS? I'm confused.

>>> you would need  adding a space.
> 
>> The above notation would be a hack for user agents that do
>> not support XHTML (such as IE).
> 
> Yes, XHTML appendices C.2 and C.3 (informative).  It's AFAIK
> always possible to get this right, if all else fails simply try
> .  Or here add the class="break" to
> class="grey" / class="light" in an adjacent non-empty span.

These are the "HTML compatibility guidelines" for people who serve XHTML 
with content type text/html. This is an extremely bad idea in the first 
place. See for instance ).

>> I think it's better to not to serve XHTML as HTML, but to use
>> HTML4 in the first place.
> 
> I found that XHTML transitional is the best way to get valid
> documents working with "any" browser (for HTML 3.2 or better),
> if I stay away from a few HTML 4.01 only contructs like .

What'S the advantage of HTML 4.01?

>>> all the other h1 (now) should be some ersatz-"h2", all h2
>>> should be an ersatz-"h3", etc.
> 
>> Why?
> 
> Because there is excatly one 
 in a document, before any
> following 
.  And there's no 
 without a preceding 
,
> etc.  "Abusing" 
 etc. for decorative purposes, e.g. because
> 
 is "nicer" than 
 with a specific browser, isn't the
> idea of these elements.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. From 
:

"There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important 
and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important 
headings in larger fonts than less important ones."

> For some time I did this, abusing 
 instead of 
 because
> I didn't like the 
 in my browsers.  But that was stupid.

That's stupid if you don't have an 
 at all. It's also stupid to 
choose elements based on the default rendering they get; that's what CSS 
is for.

> ...

Best regards, Julian

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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 25 03:48:27 2006
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Frank Ellermann schrieb:
> ...
>> The style sheet makes all the  tags the same size as the
>> rest of the text - which browser did you use which made them
>> big, and can we find a workaround?
> 
> None of my four browsers support CSS, for Netscape 4.x because
> I disabled its strange implementation baseed on JSS.  I never
> tried to use header elements avoiding all their side effects
> for legacy browsers, but maybe it's possible.

Well. At some point the Tools team needs to decide what platforms it is 
supporting. I think it's clearly acceptable to assume HTML 4. Users with 
browsers that haven't been updated since the 1990's can still use the 
authoritative TXT version.

Don't forget that the *purpose* of the HTMLification (IMHO) is to make 
the ASCII versions more accessible/linkable.

> 1: For valid (X)HTML you'd need ...
...
...
>    instead of only .........

Yes.

> 2: 
 is probably hopeless, all browsers I know and googlebot
>    have their own ideas how to display or use header level 1.

All browsers *I* know (IE, Firefox, Opera) display h1 the way it's 
defined in CSS.

> 3: 
 it roughly (!) the same as  with my browsers,
>    see also   If
>    that's also the case elsewhere you could try to "diasable"
>    it with 
...
,
>    similar 
...
, disabling 

>    needs only , for 
 you get , and finally you
>    hit 
...

> 
>    This would still shift headers to the left margin.  In the
>    case of RFCs maybe some columns too much, I didn't test it.
>    An ugly hack, better forget it, it's broken by design.
> 
>    There simply is no  in monospaced US ASCII plain text,
>    and retrofitting  into these documents with CSS hacks to
>    disable its side effects doesn't work.

That is simply incorrect. Could you please making assumptions about how 
HTML rendering works based on old and buggy browser implementations?

>> The purpose of the  tags was covered in my post with
>> subject "Document Map" yesterday
> 
> Okay, some obscure plugin for a browser I don't and can't use,
> I read his message.  But until yesterday rfcmarkup preserved
> the original ASCII look and feel, adding working links and
> anchors, plus some meta data before the original text.

I don't think it's constructive to call something "obscure" which works 
*very* well for many people, and in addition takes advantage of header 
tags exactly the way they've been designed to.

 > ...
> If you want to disable all 
 side effects for this and other
> browsers you need the complete "real" header (here two lines),
> something in this direction:
> 
> 
1st line

> 2nd line
.  Or maybe try
> 
 instead of 
, my source claims that
> the browser support for 
 is better.
> 
> But 
 only because one tool
> can do interesting things with 
, potentially destroying the
> original look and feel for other browsers, is this desirable ?

Make it "...because one tool can't cope properly with CSS?".


 > ...
>> Tested with validator, added space.  Why would this not be
>> valid?
> 
> Now I checked it, 
> appendix C,3 says "don't" - maybe some browsers don't like it,
> 
> My favourite browser doesn't know what a  is, self-closed
> or not, so from my POV it's only a theoretical problem.  But I
> wouldn't dare violate a guideline where I've no clue what its
> purpose is, e.g. C.2 and C.16 are important for my browsers.

Again, these are *guidelines* for serving XHTML as text/html. Don't. 
It's that simple.

> ...

Best regards, Julian

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Hi Frank,

on 2006-07-25 03:34 Frank Ellermann said the following:
> Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> 
>> I probably have to provide two versions, as there seems to
>> be too many things you comment on below for which there are
>> functional (not appearance) reasons.
> 
> Maybe, but there are already many sites and tools "beautifying"
> (= "mutilating" in my terminology) RFCs like faqs.org or the
> HTML output of xml2rfc.  And xml2rfc is better suited for this
> task, it has the complete meta data - that's the only part I
> missed in the old rfcmarkup output.

Yes.  My purpose was very definitely _not_ to change the layout
by adding headers in different fonts and sizes - I find that
distracting when reading RFCs.

>> The style sheet makes all the  tags the same size as the
>> rest of the text - which browser did you use which made them
>> big, and can we find a workaround?
> 
> None of my four browsers support CSS, for Netscape 4.x because
> I disabled its strange implementation baseed on JSS.  I never
> tried to use header elements avoiding all their side effects
> for legacy browsers, but maybe it's possible.
> 
> 1: For valid (X)HTML you'd need ...
...
...
>    instead of only .........
> 2: 
 is probably hopeless, all browsers I know and googlebot
>    have their own ideas how to display or use header level 1.
> 3: 
 it roughly (!) the same as  with my browsers,
>    see also   If
>    that's also the case elsewhere you could try to "diasable"
>    it with 
...
,
>    similar 
...
, disabling 

>    needs only , for 
 you get , and finally you
>    hit 
...

> 
>    This would still shift headers to the left margin.  In the
>    case of RFCs maybe some columns too much, I didn't test it.
>    An ugly hack, better forget it, it's broken by design.
> 
>    There simply is no  in monospaced US ASCII plain text,
>    and retrofitting  into these documents with CSS hacks to
>    disable its side effects doesn't work.

Bah.  Ok.

>> The purpose of the  tags was covered in my post with
>> subject "Document Map" yesterday
> 
> Okay, some obscure plugin for a browser I don't and can't use,
> I read his message.  But until yesterday rfcmarkup preserved
> the original ASCII look and feel, adding working links and
> anchors, plus some meta data before the original text.

I still want to preserve the original ASCII look and feel, and
I'm sorry not to have managed to do that for all users in this
case.  I'm looking into ways of reverting to the proper look
without loosing the added functionality.

> Apparently we disagree about the purpose of this HTML tool.
> I could get "enhanced" RFCs at faqs.org if I'd want them.

I assume that by "enhanced" you mean with changed look and feel,
in this case ;-)  .  Yes, I understand.

>> I started using 
, but that
>> broke lynx, so in order to support text-mode browsing with
>> lynx I chose to be pragmatic rather than pure.
> 
> It was perfect until Saturday - probably it was also valid, I
> never had a reason to check this.   You can try  magic
> within 
, but as soon as you leave 
 you've lost the
> original look and feel.  No surprise, "pre" means "preserve".

I've always thought it meant 'preformatted'.  But that doesn't
really matter here.

> AFAIK 
 is the only element where an xml:space="preserve"
> attribute is allowed - and pointless, it's implied by 
.
> 
>> The page divider lines can be skipped altogether if people
>> don't like them.  The main reason to use the current
>> implementation was again to provide support for lynx.
> 
> I'm no regular Lynx user, I only start it for testing, or for
> very strange cases (like idnits) where my Netscapes both fail.
> 
> If I test http://tools.ietf.org/html/4408 with Lynx the result
> is ugly, a yellow on blue "Sender Policy Framework (SPF) for
> 
, then two blank lines, followed by the rest of the real
> header, here "Authorizing Use of Domains in E-Mail, Version 1".

I don't get the colour effects, but it seems I've only tested
documents with one-line headers.

> If you want to disable all 
 side effects for this and other
> browsers you need the complete "real" header (here two lines),
> something in this direction:
> 
> 
1st line

> 2nd line
.  Or maybe try
> 
 instead of 
, my source claims that
> the browser support for 
 is better.
> 
> But 
 only because one tool
> can do interesting things with 
, potentially destroying the
> original look and feel for other browsers, is this desirable ?

I don't know where the trade-off is here.  The tests I did showed
a preserved look-and-feel, but obviously they were incomplete.

>>> Maybe replace the dubious self-links href="#xyz" by id="xyz"
> 
>> The self-links were on request, I can loose them if most
>> people don't like them.  The purpose is to show that there is
>> an anchor here which you can link to.
> 
> That should be obvious in the ToC, and guessing the format of a
> few anchors not mentioned in the ToC like #page-1 is no rocket
> science.  In  I tried
> a "manual XHTML-ficication" some years ago, and there I linked
> all "[page nn]" to the ToC (allowing to skip the boilerplate
> before the ToC from any page).  Not important, only an idea.
> 
>>> If that's the case you would need 
>>> adding a space.
> 
>> Tested with validator, added space.  Why would this not be
>> valid?
> 
> Now I checked it, 
> appendix C,3 says "don't" - maybe some browsers don't like it,
> 
> My favourite browser doesn't know what a  is, self-closed
> or not, so from my POV it's only a theoretical problem.  But I
> wouldn't dare violate a guideline where I've no clue what its
> purpose is, e.g. C.2 and C.16 are important for my browsers.

But the only purpose of this span is to provide print page breaks
using CSS; so as long as older browsers ignore the  we
should be fine, no?  (I've added the trailing space, that's easy.)

>> There is no reason why there can't be more than one 

>> level in a document, as far as I can see??
> 
> I've forgotten where I "learned" that, maybe it's wrong.  It's
> not in the QA tip 
> 
>> When you suggest a span class instead of  you seem to be
>> assuming that the purpose is cosmetic rather than functional,
> 
> Maybe "breaking the original look and feel of the documents for
> the functionality offered by an obscure plugin for one specific
> browser while hurting others" is more precise, but it doesn't
> change the issue.
> 
>>> A link to the plain text version would be nice, maybe in the
>>> last line.
> 
>> Good point.  Why not at the top, though?
> 
> Also fine, I'd use it rarely, download for offline reading.

Ok.  I'll add it.

>> one with rel="icon", and one with rel="shortcut icon".
> 
> Yes, I thought that rel="shortcut icon" is a space-separated
> enumeration of relations, same idea as for a class=, checking:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/sgml/dtd.html#LinkTypes
> 
>> And yes, it's a result of browser non-standardization...
> 
> The URL for both icon relationships is the same, this probably
> works as expected.  If the browsers wanting the separate "icon"
> link also support PNG as favicon, I can't tell what old IEs do.

Right.  The worst case behaviour is that they don't get the favicon,
no big problem.


Regards,

	Henrik

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Hi Robert,

on 2006-07-25 05:25 Robert Sparks said the following:
> I will chime in with a "me too"  and a couple of observations of the  
> things that made the current version
> particularly useful to me (I will be sad if this tool goes away):

Oh, it should stay, definitely.

> There were two primary use cases I exercised with this tool
>     1) Planning for the meeting: Having the imbedded links to each  
> session's agenda is extremely useful.
>          Having links to the drafts as Cullen suggest would make it  
> even better (I think a working link to the .txt
>          would be more useful than just the names of the drafts).

Ok.

>     2) Navigation at the meeting itself: Having the accurate room  
> information on the subject line (so that it shows
>          up in the summary presented on most of the PDAs you might  
> sync a calendar to) was a huge time and
>          confusion saver for me and several people I talked to.  
> Please guard this particular feature aggressively.

Ok :-)

> For future icing, I might also suggest poking at a way to get the app  
> to remember the groups I selected at the
> last meeting and start with those selected next time around (maybe  
> getting the tool to mail a link or just a chunk
> of text along with the generated calendar that can be optionally fed  
> into the processing for the next meeting).

Yes, I've already had thoughts in this direction.  It may show up
in the next revision.

> Thanks for the effort that's going into this,

Good to hear that it's useful :-)


	Henrik


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] iCal calendar for IETF meetings
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Hi Cullen,

on 2006-07-23 17:59 Cullen Jennings said the following:
> I used the tool, found it very useful, and had no problems - many =20
> thanks.
>=20
> I don't know if others would like this but for me, being able to say =20
> add all WG in a given area would be useful. This would be icing on =20
> the cake and and I find the tool totally useable without this.

This should be possible.  I'll note it down as a feature for the next
revision.

> As a super bonus, if the tool took all the agendas for the meetings I  =

> selected, pulled out anything that looked like draft-* and put all =20
> those names into a file that was my "reading list", that would be =20
> great. Since everyone likes to print in different ways, I would find =20
> the list of file names more useful than a PDF of the drafts.

Ok.  Should also be possible.  So you'd prefer a file of draft names,
rather than a web page with names and links, or a tarball with the
drafts?

Regards,

	Henrik


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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 25 06:50:40 2006
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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To: Henrik Levkowetz 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Re: rfcmarkup changes
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Hi Frank,

on 2006-07-25 12:01 Henrik Levkowetz said the following:
[Henrik]
>>> >> The purpose of the  tags was covered in my post with
>>> >> subject "Document Map" yesterday

[Frank]
>> > Okay, some obscure plugin for a browser I don't and can't use,
>> > I read his message.  But until yesterday rfcmarkup preserved
>> > the original ASCII look and feel, adding working links and
>> > anchors, plus some meta data before the original text.

[Henrik]
> I still want to preserve the original ASCII look and feel, and
> I'm sorry not to have managed to do that for all users in this
> case.  I'm looking into ways of reverting to the proper look
> without loosing the added functionality.

Ok, so I just think I worked out a way of keeping the functionality
*and* the original look-and-feel.

Given that, how original should that be?

You indicated earlier that the greying out of the page header/footer
was OK.  Does that still hold?

What about boldfacing the section headers -- no other changes; same
font-size and font-family as the rest of the document, such as in
http://www1.tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4321 ?  Is that desirable or
undesirable?


Hoping to work this out to most people's satisfaction...



	Henrik



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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 25 07:46:41 2006
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It is a tool developed myself. I use this tool to read RFC documents, and I
hope you can enjoy  it tool. In current  phase, it can only run on windows
system.

it will be my honor to offer free license to the authors of RFCs and IETF
draft. Please send mail to me and I will send out the license in several
days.

You can download it from
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-tools/Other-Office-Tools/RFC-Reader.shtml
.

BR.
Hong Tian

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It is a tool developed myself. I use this tool to read RFC documents, and I hope you can enjoy  it tool. In current  phase, it can only run on windows system.

it will be my honor to offer 
		free license to the authors of RFCs and IETF draft. Please send mail to me and I will send out the license in several days. 

You can download it from 
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-tools/Other-Office-Tools/RFC-Reader.shtml.

BR.
Hong Tian


 

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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 25 16:39:53 2006
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From: Joe Touch 
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FWIW - there's a similar one at http://www.rfcbrowser.com/

It's similarly free to authors, but also the lite version is free to
non-commercial users (no limit on use).

Joe
----

Gilson Yi wrote:
> It is a tool developed myself. I use this tool to read RFC documents,
> and I hope you can enjoy  it tool. In current  phase, it can only run o=
n
> windows system.
>=20
> it will be my honor to offer free license to the authors of RFCs and
> IETF draft. Please send mail to me and I will send out the license in
> several days.
>=20
> You can download it from
> http://www.softpedia.com/get/Office-tools/Other-Office-Tools/RFC-Reader=
=2Eshtml.
>=20
> BR.
> Hong Tian
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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From tools-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 26 00:01:12 2006
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Julian Reschke wrote:
 
> your browser doesn't support HTML 4, which has been around
> since 1998? But it *does* CSS?

My "mozilla 3" monster doesn't support CSS, it's a HTML 3.2
browser.  For "good" pages that's no problem, I don't get the
decorations, working as designed.  

If the effect of say class=grey" is ugly I won't see it.  The
source says #777 for .grey, and #ccc for .light, the latter
would be almost invisible on a silver background, this might
be a missing background colour problem, but I can't judge it,

  [XHTML appendix C]
> These are the "HTML compatibility guidelines" for people who
> serve XHTML with content type text/html.

Yes.

> This is an extremely bad idea in the first place.

No, it's a clear MAY.  If you want no backwards compatibility
at all you could use XHTML 1.1 instead of 1.0 transitional,
for XHTML 1.1 and BASIC sending text/html is a SHOULD NOT.

> 

Yes, some folks don't like XHTML 1.0 transitional... 
My browsers don't support HTML, no  and other SGML tricks,
and I like the simply structure of XHTML.  Admittedly I would
not know how to get inline