From nobody Sun Aug 1 08:26:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F033A2919 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:26:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qE49jcADE3pg for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 398C23A291D for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9FDB389A6; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id hwuqF30Ha2mh; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C8D389A4; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B11B24; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <4d70a1ac-a275-420a-83f6-99dfd5b5385c@www.fastmail.com> <19431.1627486962@localhost> <15399.1627683281@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 11:26:11 -0400 Message-ID: <1217.1627831571@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why do we even have text formats any more? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:26:22 -0000 Julian Reschke wrote: >> I also don't want paste to include any extra stuff. > "extra stuff" such as? font changes, etc. Depending on what the recipient (pastee?) program accomodates. From nobody Sun Aug 1 08:35:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14D13A2978 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:35:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sGNXcMczPBol for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 248C33A2974 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:35:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1627832124; bh=32PF4INF3+oEg8jnT+keqJI6QqkC7xt82MHfP7RYggs=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=CiGi8odbWNmwimAmTD/YZd5sUHFuwgvlVJKGDxMnb/5IKF/nZUNEh0ZJURiK7CnPM llPPzWgwrsOSE+SvEAcUbJtDIrQwPC2rk0ig/kB7YWJqpJ/m4+bOOZAroXOnn6Pojw cg4pnSfqTZpBxr/rDOjytzgLeBuvoxPYI4sO15dQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [172.16.1.70] ([212.205.152.82]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N3se8-1n9i6G0RIO-00zkcH for ; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 17:35:24 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <4d70a1ac-a275-420a-83f6-99dfd5b5385c@www.fastmail.com> <19431.1627486962@localhost> <15399.1627683281@localhost> <1217.1627831571@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 17:35:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1217.1627831571@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:cPqm17LCbPz/Y9WloXeOQsUy4FV7sXkcgMKA3g3X/OUZX/6pClq 8DIWO/dRD0glLwKABHoZDsij5UN30lt4lADWPIM/wXpizFCIlNl5V4n1UvMq9GCQfWGS29D ftnr6kznF55TE3Q5ODCFj+Z3vopKFz1VG1rTFGFStlFDid5EENwwHYsTFvlxqTqcQu3XuD+ C+lxUCQ7VuV+P5eGPEpRQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UWHwRbWeBAA=:rc/ZokeiX1dzEIHPMyExMa +uaN+B/Md/0se1t1iF3nPlO0S5CYle7jfVV0iTAYQI4rtGC5jB1VU4E3AG0KoaTZnX41yHO+i r/uoE/tp2dAWhUl9PtIOVdF/lRsK/LyVjMxeFgOV9PxN/As8/p/nc2T64jt0wMC0AoJINrWRc JWcwGoD9yUhZSEPRm0/F4rGyqAyKHpakGN5U1mZ8SiMDkS+spfwDP+IUXdxAaPx10MDvh0Kz8 xx5oOKANKDM0gjMHrRzZGljlyj20huBO6ETUEsL/5eZiljWZDF/xe12T9PUS1to8R4352fQb4 Y22jmGozIT5We7xfuFFGgiIJhQsgXHoeCZ45h/zQrhTPK83zmDve136nCb0geumJYFy+ucIDd NLaKpxcqE9WGjSUWlkOork1h0//kXbky4bWj/XDw+Mcurksk6AvUdiXKPAB58izrWRLq87yHQ Gu6W7l03s7iYl9V6Z2zhS0Jtf6HHR9nzNTRbMHa1xMegy2fbco68i5fo8AlWzY+78rXLqEGcS LQiKXbiXZ4//4+WAO1Ni3pXBOjNdA2MES3h3KjjQxuLFzIH1hFxolsH95ZREHwcfi7lKPdgfS zRtcoGPznV79aVv73j1uwWpki8RmuYGeoqFZLQCp1B9vCTEWcN+um+1HH1jBqf5mrtPZ0WcYA si/CFQf4tvAPzpA+AwuGf7zVLLoPC4gl3hsxhVqfK8K6rBL1XMddFaynpLs7GgJQN7PU/faex Jh06JWBJpUoJLM8r6HUlRe+tXzBA7oG6dRvC/THiTdkb8w9o2PeZFZf567oRRYqS3VRKG/5fE VUoc82t7cbpzFC9VGfymzcEvgp+41o4NbXGMU+8vUIyQ/FZ/9Zkh+R4ot5+AItQzIQu9iNlr+ +3Gir3HYuLtDKFy0y2rfTnmh/DURCIzwEEbaXYDMJYZEaBQeogMIKs6tSxxnOJOGVYmcRP61y xY+LZnomX5mlM4lU4Suk4QGJfGHx4pjZS/1epomgHlfTmxMXs/29mA9SVDBGYB0J2HEyHS5Eg SLvSqdXCACCVxxJyJbfD0hQyCgsEuS2RewUfC6oIKdd5GNGdFbFW2NwKHt42L4Hhq4me8OlG/ 0XNR8zEfgYzp/6R33WgenTK0W6DhAn6EM3cDmb0PdxYCXwvJxhydB7F9w== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why do we even have text formats any more? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:35:35 -0000 Am 01.08.2021 um 17:26 schrieb Michael Richardson: > Julian Reschke wrote: > >> I also don't want paste to include any extra stuff. > > > "extra stuff" such as? > > font changes, etc. > Depending on what the recipient (pastee?) program accomodates. If you paste that *into* a text editor, it'll get stripped, no? (And if you paste into things like Word, you should have an option to strip that..= .) Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Aug 1 08:47:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13703A4012; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CzYHESdXzmQz; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE67A3A400A; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Gd59b3Zdrz31Ml; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 17:47:14 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 17:47:08 +0200 Cc: "111attendees@ietf.org" <111attendees@ietf.org> X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 649525628.790176-9ed54a48aa6675089aa655fd59178deb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> References: <8a1018d3-62da-a740-72d6-bb370af71a9e@joelhalpern.com> <20210731193455.C04E625657CF@ary.qy> <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> To: Tools Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:47:25 -0000 OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don=E2=80=99t= want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes. Less = well-discussed is that the authorization rule is that anyone with a = datatracker account has write access, but I think that implementing = anything more granular (e.g., attendee status for the meeting that = generated the minutes) would be actual work. The authorization rule seems to correspond to CodiMD=E2=80=99s = =E2=80=9Ceditable=E2=80=9D, which is therefore the setting we should = choose for meeting notes. Whether we can do that automatically from the = place where the meetings are assigned codimd names or have to do this = manually is then a procedural thing to be discussed on tools-discuss. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 1 08:55:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060F13A4051 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ln1sTWViyQWb for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E52A3A404A for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 08:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Gd5M73P3gz2xL3; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 17:55:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 17:55:18 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 649526118.5272599-2556b19e9eec1d483c6baf01a948fd0b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4F450849-DEF3-4C66-9D9B-336016BD798F@tzi.org> References: <4d70a1ac-a275-420a-83f6-99dfd5b5385c@www.fastmail.com> <19431.1627486962@localhost> <15399.1627683281@localhost> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why do we even have text formats any more? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:55:43 -0000 On 2021-07-31, at 06:31, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > "extra stuff" such as? Wrong question. Currently, we generate a TXT format from the XML, which (possibly among = other renditions) is checked by the authors during AUTH48. This format = is there guaranteed to have the information that should survive a = copy/paste into another text document (e.g., the comments in a program). The HTML plus the not further defined, platform specific conversion from = HTML to TXT does not give us these assurances. So removing the TXT = format removes reliable copy/paste into other plaintext documents. 2=E2=81=B6=E2=81=B4 becomes 264. =E2=80=9C =E2=80=9C becomes . Etc. (Note that there are occasionally discussions to remove information from = the TXT format to make it look more like the HTML, in particular because = it would sometimes require information from the authors to always do = this information generation properly for the TXT form. These = discussions need to be informed by the need to copy/paste RFC snippets = into plaintext documents.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 1 10:39:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD8C3A0C86 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 10:39:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gMEiAkep7yfG for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAC8A3A0C81 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 10:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 171HcxCg039929 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:38:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1627839540; bh=4L7bXoGBDgD0M9rbu7DtKWg+4nrRQBUY2Tvh2GTF2Gw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=RI8JcJUXDVK7j6Whyt/93dMO4sQ1Y1DT4i1jSRXAyf86gQe+i8hVDpXg8nE1kMP3e s3/SXxepB2XDD6ZmKSr3zdjZbbYGHb0LhVa4/5A7Vs/eIuLjL2I+TyV8WtvH/7/aSD XrsV9Bzia7WysMb5DweqWfRyttIolHuw/IYUlqrI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8a1018d3-62da-a740-72d6-bb370af71a9e@joelhalpern.com> <20210731193455.C04E625657CF@ary.qy> <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <05a2506a-2568-0acd-afe1-951c77d40141@nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:38:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 17:39:06 -0000 Would it be too large a step to make the sitewide default for new notes be "editable"? Notes that need a lower bar (allowing anonymous access) for some reason could go explicitly change the setting. RjS On 8/1/21 10:47 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don’t want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes. Less well-discussed is that the authorization rule is that anyone with a datatracker account has write access, but I think that implementing anything more granular (e.g., attendee status for the meeting that generated the minutes) would be actual work. > > The authorization rule seems to correspond to CodiMD’s “editable”, which is therefore the setting we should choose for meeting notes. Whether we can do that automatically from the place where the meetings are assigned codimd names or have to do this manually is then a procedural thing to be discussed on tools-discuss. > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sun Aug 1 12:24:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF043A0848 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iki.fi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6A2SMx4Bkypi for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lahtoruutu.iki.fi (lahtoruutu.iki.fi [IPv6:2a0b:5c81:1c1::37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1327D3A0847 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fireball.acr.fi (fireball.kivinen.iki.fi [IPv6:2001:1bc8:100d::2]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: kivinen@iki.fi) by lahtoruutu.iki.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07B511B0023D; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:23:55 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1627845835; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=52XY7WxYoqpov7aC3W4ZDC4KJP29ghzHhNZ4UTru7rw=; b=eNTFHclLzedpJ30+RcG4k/r3U6bshmS3iwoTwohiNfnaJkj6ozKLRy+a2hWy/vpVn5memw Q6hBK9MPN1RmjV+H4XZPjajrotKAOzegY2QTPjsqXazc5a+YTEDRU+6NyOel5cgL1lgunn 2/MXTK2IrxExJtWSRD/+jQhfWIEiQPqeOF8zJl7SRc9k/mcQxZ8n1tx/CqH1GdbSQ1jtbS OlAa1NKwAuqxmywW/HGB83tIzh2ixMiwBb8eV9pZ0W/RBq2/ON5t0SujHFef59qMzQ5KhN wyVMhQYDY565Oi89LytZPnv8KkMP/P+BUGpYf2h9/keeaccOL0feTDbgGlP6Bg== Received: by fireball.acr.fi (Postfix, from userid 15204) id 3E1B025C12D0; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:23:54 +0300 (EEST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <24838.62666.149700.892113@fireball.acr.fi> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:23:54 +0300 From: Tero Kivinen To: "Maisonneuve\, Julien \(Nokia - FR\/Paris-Saclay\)" Cc: "tools-discuss\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 26.3 (x86_64--netbsd) X-Edit-Time: 11 min X-Total-Time: 10 min ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; ORIGINATING; auth=pass smtp.auth=kivinen@iki.fi smtp.mailfrom=kivinen@iki.fi ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iki.fi; s=lahtoruutu; t=1627845835; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=52XY7WxYoqpov7aC3W4ZDC4KJP29ghzHhNZ4UTru7rw=; b=rAS37+0hHhNdtN4zDFeCTo9wIz4uGyVqSdvn2usYIh+pQ8k8aCemz2KCbiy+DNXiA9X/Ym uYLybts8+hqB3/ClnbzpzvL8Rkk8U6N6l+XJruxIz8HloROqFTukY/cj53ZeMSHhgwqLIs Igauot01w0LAw0xOsT1BsbW6l1hmz2atS+P+dV+eOMlO+U3kXMhVUGEPrmy2SEjaFWxW6y pVjziplzimQfxyxIpBUD5/JPfk+1Rspn3wE4NL4EgiGuzIDQ/FPYmffyl5Y4uhc55TlftJ i2d92AwI+X9Yvqdyi/dZkZjtLKJ2LAExAyGkSxkyC4OATK9jRKB3BL0p1jDiOg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=lahtoruutu; d=iki.fi; t=1627845835; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=lbIFLIAZh0aI1ioSCiMLGZYQAab3w2Ls8p6n9PsjvnxqEHQHviQguL/mJ9r82RWbd6vAQv yIo+5QxNPsvhWvPy18P5RTnhvIGpNy4HAuNOuwV9BTQUPuo/TBDjmvGInbOAEIi8FVXA8x 1/qfMYM/N7XIohz1MJSCHN3v6lzIDqkwoc740OoC4ZqzIJUQdMGPQsku/v+R15VhNUHcRr DIHY9UvHuqjfHMB4TugH8qzZxZCEHyDi9rUEA0Z6MpEAAyzCy2qI9x/spkLd2ohqNH8lcZ M0jBXNW+2QgxNmVClL4enIWhtbUUxgxxojUenJ3oq37GcCi3COHQvLyvUxDw/A== Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Agenda Web Page X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 19:24:04 -0000 Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay) writes: > Hello, >=20 > Refreshing the agenda page (to get the latest wg agendas and material= s, or > just agenda updates) always revert the timezone to that of the meetin= g, > forcing to go back to the beginning of the page to reset the timezone= to the > preferred location. >=20 > After a discussion on the 111attendees list, it would appear that a f= ew people > (including myself) would be in favor to have the =E2=80=9CLocal=E2=80= =9D timezone options set > as default. It is likely to inconvenience a far smaller set of indivi= duals > than setting the UTC or meeting zone (people whose browser is set to = a > different locale than where they actually are, a minority in reduced = travel > times). We already have two urls pointing to the agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda and https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda-utc The first one will default the meeting time, the second will default to utc. I think it would be very quick fix to create third url like https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/agenda-local that would default to local timezone of the browser. This could be added to the tab list at the beginning of the page where we now have "Agenda", "UTC Agenda", "Floor plan" etc, i.e., add new "Local Agenda" tab there, and by clicking that the user could pick whatever default he wants for that window. That would solve the refreshing the page problem, and user can then bookmark the whatever page they want to use as default. The question there is, should we have all three also from the Meetings menu, i.e., on the Meetings menu we only have one "Agenda" entry and that goes to the meeting time agenda. Should there be separate entries for UTC and local agenda too=3F > This condition could be different once we resume physical meetings, t= hen the > meeting zone would probably be the most desirable. >=20 > Alternatively setting a cookie to enable the browser to remember whic= h zone is > preferred would lessen the problem. Having cookies for this kind of thing it bit problematic, as I did go on and change my timezone several time during the meeting, clicking local, utc and meeting on the right to switch between timezones, and those operations are done locally in the browser, i.e., they do not do any page loads to the datatracker, thus setting cookies there would be bit funny. And I do like the fact that my browser tabs can have different agenda timezones, and not make agenda timezone global setting in the browser like it will be if cookies are used. --=20 kivinen@iki.fi From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:13:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F7B3A0CDC for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bk75pt1gq269 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68EE53A0CD2 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99CB389B4 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3nS9UI-8PTvH for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6919389B3 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E026B24 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] ietf gitlab X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:13:32 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read in some thread that the IETF apparently owns a Gitlab license. (I guess a supported version, as I thought the code was open source) While there are many social reasons that WGs may want to use github, some W= Gs and/or some authors might prefer gitlab. There are a bunch of things which I think we should do with gitlab: 1) WG charters. I just read read a rechartering, and I don't have the history to easily know what's going on. A rechartering branch would solve that. 2) the backups that the secretariat keeps from github could be visible ther= e. Because... untested processes often have unseen failures. While this likely wouldn't deal with issues/pull requests, it would allow the core git content to be visible over IPv6. 3) I know that RFC-editor has experimented with git. While there might be jurisdictional issues with AUTH48 editing occuring = in the IETF's gitlab, git lets you deal across repositories easily, so maybe this is less of an issue if managed well. Just some thoughts. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEHAGIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUx9Qf/ba9ZIeaTyCmqqiib9CEtsXX7kgurxteKDbllKEiI8GXopqu89R/NkPOm gpDf5VhJ0oceV9pHZb5ElGHQYqgHhw4gqFiy+yqCYInFlEzJrMMIwDWusVh5STaw 5m3w7RlGROXHZks5691GdDTYHtOW44Y0XRVqGG0RQ3Oi6d5gGYpK5UFu5t4pW3ZM ViSKSCG6LC0LBcaaEm+ht5htN8rGYDB0Z2iUR+GZaejCQ1Xo/q2ibGFuNt803jgC t7d+K7XBBal12jhLXdq0gB7+FMSiVwEA/Iydgt+qY8umeM4QMkU4hwWbR3lIgR7t l7SO377oX0fYGN8UhIOalhrkL6qzrw== =00RG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:23:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18733A0D6E; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie; Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by DB9PR02MB6779.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:1f8::17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4373.21; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 20:23:02 +0000 Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4198:a9d1:7246:8272]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4198:a9d1:7246:8272%3]) with mapi id 15.20.4373.026; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 20:23:02 +0000 To: Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion Cc: "111attendees@ietf.org" <111attendees@ietf.org> References: <8a1018d3-62da-a740-72d6-bb370af71a9e@joelhalpern.com> <20210731193455.C04E625657CF@ary.qy> <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> From: Stephen Farrell Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 21:23:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; 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X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:23:15 -0000 --QG0pwmoA2zGhoG0IUhsjgMIWLx8KxYAYA Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Lw0HBLITduhD0YIRdjvcxxkkRusILmEaJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Carsten Bormann , Tools Discussion Cc: "111attendees@ietf.org" <111attendees@ietf.org> Message-ID: Subject: Re: [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? References: <8a1018d3-62da-a740-72d6-bb370af71a9e@joelhalpern.com> <20210731193455.C04E625657CF@ary.qy> <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> --Lw0HBLITduhD0YIRdjvcxxkkRusILmEaJ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ECF88EFDDC64BFFD0996494E" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ECF88EFDDC64BFFD0996494E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/08/2021 16:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: > OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don=E2=80=99= t > want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes. Really? Seems to me the risk isn't significant enough to make someone do work and there's plenty of opportunity to read the draft meeting notes. I don't really object to requiring note takers be authenticated but it doesn't seem that worthwhile. 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tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8a1018d3-62da-a740-72d6-bb370af71a9e@joelhalpern.com> <20210731193455.C04E625657CF@ary.qy> <7A01A718-246F-4DFD-B522-EC4D7C945199@akamai.com> <72755DA5-56E8-4DF9-A2B6-2BBDD315094A@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:33:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------52B2048CD3BFE63DC64EBA94" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:33:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------52B2048CD3BFE63DC64EBA94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 8/1/21 3:23 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 01/08/2021 16:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don’t >> want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes. > Really? Seems to me the risk isn't significant enough to make > someone do work and there's plenty of opportunity to read the > draft meeting notes. I don't really object to requiring note > takers be authenticated but it doesn't seem that worthwhile. Hi Stephen - I've moved any pages I create to requiring login for two benefits - First, I know who contributed to the notes, and second, it helps prevent some unintended nuisance edits from people who are just intending to observe, want to copy/paste from the markdown so they go to the editing screen, and end up cutting instead. RjS > > S. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------52B2048CD3BFE63DC64EBA94 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 8/1/21 3:23 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote:


On 01/08/2021 16:47, Carsten Bormann wrote:
OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don’t
want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes.
Really? Seems to me the risk isn't significant enough to make
someone do work and there's plenty of opportunity to read the
draft meeting notes. I don't really object to requiring note
takers be authenticated but it doesn't seem that worthwhile.

Hi Stephen -

I've moved any pages I create to requiring login for two benefits - First, I know who contributed to the notes, and second, it helps prevent some unintended nuisance edits from people who are just intending to observe, want to copy/paste from the markdown so they go to the editing screen, and end up cutting instead.

RjS


S. 

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--------------52B2048CD3BFE63DC64EBA94-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:37:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEF03A0E52; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ryjQGs-waTEQ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 101703A0E4D; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DB038A19; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tbp81oT-Dr_s; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352D238A17; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87A1B24; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:37:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Bron Gondwana" , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:37:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bron Gondwana wrote: > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:* > This is still an issue for me. I often mute myself while chairing so= I > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - but = it > means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging of > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio feed > which means I might miss something someone says, but it also creates > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responded the other > party's mental state has moved on. Yes, the 3s on/off latency on the audio is a problem. So one should use a local mute instead, which of course, then causes confus= ion. > Timing is really important in conversation and we're already fighting > with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the planet. > Additional delay makes it unwieldy. Ah... I know of a genetically spliced lab mouse with a plan to reduce the s= ize of the planet. > *allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:* > I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my > desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to anoth= er > location while continuing to follow a meeting. Multiple connection > support would mean I could switch over without a break. It seems like a stretch requirement, but I also know that some chairs want a second laptop so that they can see whether slides are really advancing. What I don't understand is, 16 months into pandemic, and 10 years into scre= en sharing, how it is that PPT people don't understand that they have to "F5" before they share. > Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would be > pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given that we > allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused significantly. > Sure there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid that by giving > each jabber name with a serial number (which I believe already happens > now?) Yes. Actually, the ephermalness of the jabber names annoys me, as I can't message people after they have left. > *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds* The video image does do the yellow square when they are speaking. > See my previous email :) Basically the "participant list" should just > be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to > when seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to th= em > (and people don't get moved out of order when they're sending > something). The "who is sending something" list should be all togeth= er > with the video, and chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing rig= ht > now. I think that I need a picture. As my meetecho windows are more vertical than horizontal, I'd also like to = be able to move the video boxes to be under the slides. see: https://www.sandelman.ca/mcr/IETF111-virtual-SFO-two-sessions.png > Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people so > we know who of those with their audio channel open are currently > speaking, this makes it easier to look in one place to see the source > of all sound, and eyes can generally flit between the right hand side > (video and audio indicators) and the slides, without needing to also > track via the participant list. I think that it would also work better for the youtube recording. > *flexible "assign chair"**:* > This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings are > pre-assigned from datatracker. It would be great for ADs and the > meetecho reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a chair > role or remove a chair role with a simple click. That's a good idea. And with that power, they should be able to advance slides, no matter who activated them. > This has become less important with the ability for individuals to tu= rn > on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less busywo= rk > just approving access, but it would be good to make it possible for > someone else to step into the chair if the regular chairs are unable = to > attend or lose network, rather than making the meeting less able to > run. I'd like the chair to be able to pre-authorize sharing and slides. Actually, the way I'd implement is that the chair(s) just get to decide who of the possibly many screen-sharing/slides that are occuring, who is actual= ly shared. That lets people (a) test their setup in advance of their slot, (b) reduce the time to switch. =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect = [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEHBfoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWb6QgAuqzwQODO1U8V1CIg7vQHbgO8+hJBirNEtSRdxfcOC0ikqzppAcO317VE zVg2gTDwq+8H8oglRfc6Fa4mAFt7YT9491Y90q+GRvDxI+e3JdvcSaIr1cd9XPdE 6Ys7qw41icMrSIV32NQVW051krsQt9if5uxyMyJzL/6Lq0LORvKW7WIicmxM3C2p IhMdy85QEwbLa2CefdfN5TFR0ocmAfygQHsi8fI0pHnZYB186VZG5Ws9tHF5IzPB xGFicePDJfkFxhnijElao0qOQbPL7xmd0vkmK1Cv/RMaVwVwc+kHf+RouzXKQ+cg EHkm31XQm8RKhDX2sqsjr1WRMNXeRg== =xMXh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:41:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23763A0EC6 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:41:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1E1aIocwYmD for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 998D03A0E95 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id 185so18000729iou.10 for ; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uNU6DfSXBnyLSHwyzi8FvXLz8C1Lw+HCSa/R7ogIHKg=; b=Rrn5a7XPJqv6kI3JTjaT51q5ygxVOQkAixQ6e6/D95cn5roYpvJFTbVVGcQsUNHceM 61HgwE+z712B3dL53WfAHwThs8qXkT7HWN8UK6r12dqpCSPq4nl86q312WaIKbcNDmj4 wXB7PmD6geYRhOGpQNXE3DND3qmuZMwCpI4jVZadiNCDsJS+nNK6N+qGgi3aUfmC2sfL XBz2RrX93YkxSbtII/cCI/gNMD2NGiMI40Hd1ApjG87pXtViD3cdPDm2AA8WUk22Ga9a yCBZ7X8Bjy+DckL+J9QYqOJHFmlYYXYCQBSz4+cMfg7Z1CTETdpBU/JyYYXrrlzAR5Sa Wgyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uNU6DfSXBnyLSHwyzi8FvXLz8C1Lw+HCSa/R7ogIHKg=; b=FDlus0qIOlpO1R4SDRi06BwXMruWA7suQvUkE7kHaPNVsFZSdNYYRhyvVwM+KIegv1 gF+7gEeIT2Rrnrq02PCV6tgu3rTMEWSGvc3eS1/aodSDsAYPbCYNRPqSrowu9Jn3C1P2 c0D05OLrX6c4XsLr8k81b328TaD/Hw7tsgTB8li7Wrx4PZRAE9w51DeeDrUr5i9Ku8+N fAEwRvoZdWBz8zufex3U3IGQUjRFbubVXF0/nNI/4k1LKgM2rNsAbDySK3mNI1jXiASF ZiNBw/rpSBFAEyH9sGic7brk4gSoqitKVa7JKZ+n+gOgkrGXIlCzY/RaAHkZo54ClovY 0NHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533s8XJw4eWrZhNIM6/otXK2kCEZDlHT5t4BHV9AHGVE2RgdY2Ba 2F2w17r5q8yjc4dicM5fqAYrmjQsxEoZ0fWvAxujuQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyeMb4iJgqzZ73uxvZJJKNnZlbNxHxW/KKmyLizmccGIDEIbJ+bkrchYo+vJuulanqvsjWHPm/drr3EgeJCWGU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:338f:: with SMTP id h15mr11576669jav.135.1627850471088; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> <27783.1627850234@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27783.1627850234@localhost> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:40:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013b4ec05c8857922" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:41:24 -0000 --00000000000013b4ec05c8857922 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 1:38 PM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Bron Gondwana wrote: > > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:* > > > This is still an issue for me. I often mute myself while chairing > so I > > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - but > it > > means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging > of > > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio > feed > > which means I might miss something someone says, but it also creates > > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responded the other > > party's mental state has moved on. > > Yes, the 3s on/off latency on the audio is a problem. > So one should use a local mute instead, which of course, then causes > confusion. > Actually, this is not necessary. WebRTC contains APIs which allow you to mute the media locally. The delay in Meetecho is a result of the decision to release the MediaStream which then needs to be re-acquired, which is not what Meet, Zoom, etc. do. -Ekr --00000000000013b4ec05c8857922 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 1:38 PM Michae= l Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandel= man.ca> wrote:

Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio = stream open:*

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This is still an issue for me.=C2=A0 I often mute myself= while chairing so I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting th= e chat - but it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > means that I can't easily respond to somebody becaus= e the rejigging of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incom= ing audio feed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > which means I might miss something someone says, but it = also creates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responde= d the other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > party's mental state has moved on.

Yes, the 3s on/off latency on the audio is a problem.
So one should use a local mute instead, which of course, then causes confus= ion.

Actually, this is not necessary. W= ebRTC contains APIs which allow you to mute
the media locally. Th= e delay in Meetecho is a result of the decision to release
the Me= diaStream which then needs to be re-acquired, which is not what
M= eet, Zoom, etc. do.

-Ekr

--00000000000013b4ec05c8857922-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:44:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301443A0EBD; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cRBt7LDLC9u; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E08D3A0EB8; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E1238A1C; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tr93Ry2MuKqi; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F9838A1B; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38106B24; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:44:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:44:47 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Who keeps an eye on the tools material on the IETF web site? AMSL can do updates, and emails to support@ietf.org work well for this. > While trying to assist a possible new contributor, I fell upon: > https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tutorials/process/creating-int= ernet-drafts-and-rfcs/ > which looks badly in need of a refresh to me. For example, it misses = the excellent tutorial at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-edu-ses= sf-how-to-create-an-internet-draft-using-xml-or-markdown-markdown-01 > We can have the best tools in the world, but they are no good to > newcomers unless the main IETF web site is actively maintained. I'd put the ietf.org contents on a gitlab and take pull requests. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEHB7UACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVJrAf+K+v75k6vAiW+ZpEKBWnhgLLhnguOunOyjDlYrUAnkVyWA40o/3iF259D pfnVJksUYLNkZ1BKJPyHRtV/6wDQ0+Z51fMDUQ+jXj/mlBkNkx4Y6GJpbFT3Fv8N 47ndJa4IwGVGxxE1TLMwMCNrIDURVsYPdRGqjffY0/CGMx17c85tQqqprHbS8nrW VX/jgf6y5GcK5f0YwW4a4eVG6CMa1hT59XoswAPU5N0552Sqf3EzUuQiJrS7thXT wZzSZIVCeJV3ftRp685WsKq/nS0OrvwbMUrwOuZzSINZiNxhp109tw7AbicJwNtj a3ZFdTfDPKKkYNutxn36btMMhu8bOQ== =AY0g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 13:56:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DBE3A1029 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:56:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=BZonWogn; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=johnlevine.com header.b=D/jfBVuv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 496UpaV-sAFQ for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 541A53A1028 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 13:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18664 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2021 20:56:22 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=48e6.61070a76.k2108; bh=7FSg5f7Fzw/8j7I3LvNcN1TcWralperYsN1v1OGpVv8=; b=BZonWognNofz5u1vLJypHTsssx1YkjtEt8aP0Mn9mOpho7+k2brGSBCqeMTvClICxgr2DHZO/OsN8RAX2PdY+Oo4nbLo0AWuQ366NKpd5FtiYEN9AOLkre7iMEUbLoPMCunfq5k1sBLehwH7LpUtARjfDwwf1fXDEz7VuZHhgmnyu7El4Sj0pYbj1yzbYZq7Gy4kywMt+HvQq81ZNNbvDwLhZgdV/h3P0ENS/VrQ6krEjQp2kFJZHH+7+FbOzx7QZ1TbAHNn3sGq0eLzdOnHOfL/FE78197YbIKCGMbqyONmwAbPREGCaWdC8B7eoTPno8D5zwkzxc+rpQ9OvszyXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=johnlevine.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=48e6.61070a76.k2108; bh=7FSg5f7Fzw/8j7I3LvNcN1TcWralperYsN1v1OGpVv8=; b=D/jfBVuvDzYOlXMrfVkWvh8fBz7cnY9VFCDFycK/mFki0jw9n/G06D+ls0gcXZKreipEpgPWPm5myP83Qyz+DvuerhnU8QNl5u5MQqC6ZWkhHrzsVK/z2bf5l+6+IPMSk2dTXIGpTrZkKD6DWBvoWwqHDGMWhNwop22sc1LdkZUruvKo9BMOD8DPGyBjTNYjAmINHv80ssES5B7VdjFEihCUcW4UQ5MTo9pDsat6dX3dORiaArccPaauSgNhAPoi2lkkjdbJ2TNGKFe3ApZRm8uQp+UCqWy4DaiSjiO7ONjZ/02Ed7BLbTPyzJVdiscz93EL3zK+C9ekZUwvMpYHOw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 01 Aug 2021 20:56:21 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 427F0257240C; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: 1 Aug 2021 16:56:20 -0400 Message-Id: <20210801205621.427F0257240C@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, 111attendees@ietf.org Cc: stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 20:56:29 -0000 It appears that Stephen Farrell said: > >On 01/08/2021 16:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> OK, so the summary of the 111attendees discussion is that we don’t >> want unauthenticated write access to meeting notes. >Really? Seems to me the risk isn't significant enough to make >someone do work and there's plenty of opportunity to read the >draft meeting notes. I don't really object to requiring note >takers be authenticated but it doesn't seem that worthwhile. If they're in the meetecho session, they're already authenticated, so I'm having a little trouble coming up with a scenario in which someone who isn't there needs to change he minutes. R's, John From nobody Sun Aug 1 14:39:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAEA3A12BB; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmuu9MeV3SqN; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D11C3A12C0; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GdF0J1x7nz31Nn; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 23:39:44 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <29840.1627850678@localhost> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2021 23:39:43 +0200 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 21:39:53 -0000 On 1. Aug 2021, at 22:44, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > I'd put the ietf.org contents on a gitlab and take pull requests. This is the right model (s/gitlab/github/ because that=E2=80=99s the way = we do it). I=E2=80=99m afraid there may be some technical details in the way (a = description of which might need words like wagtail and streamfield, = which I=E2=80=99m not fluent in). We *do* want someone to exercise some editorial control (otherwise I=E2=80= =99d might dump my life story in there). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Aug 1 14:52:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0293C3A13C3; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:52:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ASxEafvkClV3; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06C003A13BD; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 14:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id ds11-20020a17090b08cbb0290172f971883bso28737944pjb.1; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 14:51:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pd/3MrpjrTMUUvyQH/G2Bz+a1s8DqhFCL3PPKijDtdA=; b=Qc84qiUkDhvGN0iz22i4wxgM4trD2C5pj9Vb6HwXajqUBmTsaXe/UFhgAtF8Ml8sho 5VmLMp5KMomm3meoOI2EDFQmLbUgAC7QoiG36Pj5HZTMz5FGkvScvIrPtW9MkXlB71fs 6tQpkWH4OZXXqHNM2CTChYN6njlIiIgWqzuaHJvVy9VcFwS5S/wc20/FhpbKHQ+PuYDu VaeWab4Xi3oBa/KzTRpqfNxGDZcdwMakyLFodmgvxXSbnHSGZkHi432eu9zr83WIjKVR CVJpzZRzL2W801BBkvRLd/uaGrkFSMvpteQQuAYw5CzSKzlKU2uenJKqpkLNPKgnATzr 9MBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pd/3MrpjrTMUUvyQH/G2Bz+a1s8DqhFCL3PPKijDtdA=; b=kG/4JTqKWZjzDFEam7qQ7Ucq7YAzQ0HqH+R4RvXLmSUEKCi4aN8jLXqg3HabOYW7re anayPvio/n2C3H6IizJhn7OBMmGrwCmVNzIevm21YGh4vhyDslOXAcR/Y1DG83H0uTSa DTmOSDidOHaA+fT175pJIEbNMZhF591k0MA6jXiAJ2zF3JRna+lsgpW0x9ULBslUEPpR /9VgSCScHQUj7c5GRkvx4Xayj7G7T2ll1lJK3QCRaiJ0KiTwJ7y2xt+3aBm2acYZtSwE zbBefjgDVMiIqAYzbPcQmE7rc1/zzMtEZp5EVFBe2rj59JmJJtkQN5vxbtvVEQEcb12i x73g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530cfEdgMB21dx/iLaYOC79PAL3X4kxsAEVh79MIDMhm+jUsaaYX qvuaW832uO82MxhHqrjtW3RHn31RRhQXoA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzMjFzalz/E3E8+vApbZ7/FdL7WEUhvLs6iWaxWpbmckSUNtpSwLy72lHPRmjabb0BAJ5cbkA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5641:: with SMTP id g1mr1291587pgm.33.1627854718389; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 14:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 30sm10661770pgq.31.2021.08.01.14.51.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Aug 2021 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 09:51:53 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29840.1627850678@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 21:52:05 -0000 On 02-Aug-21 08:44, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Who keeps an eye on the tools material on the IETF web site? > > AMSL can do updates, and emails to support@ietf.org work well for this. Yes, but I think that they can't be expected to be proactive in identifying gaps and updates. When I was in the EDU team (the ancestor of EMO) I tried to do this, but I'm not sure we really have a mechanism for it. For example: > > While trying to assist a possible new contributor, I fell upon: > > https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tutorials/process/creating-internet-drafts-and-rfcs/ > > which looks badly in need of a refresh to me. For example, it misses the excellent tutorial at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-edu-sessf-how-to-create-an-internet-draft-using-xml-or-markdown-markdown-01 Who decides that this is the latest & best material to promote on the site? Not my job, and probably not AMSL's. > > We can have the best tools in the world, but they are no good to > > newcomers unless the main IETF web site is actively maintained. > > I'd put the ietf.org contents on a gitlab and take pull requests. I don't know if the content management system could work like that, but I agree that crowdsourcing of some kind would be handy. Brian From nobody Sun Aug 1 15:02:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DEB3A147F; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:02:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yC3eHQP7NPuP; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2B68F3A147A; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:02:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <19CFE784-F20A-42B8-929B-46CF7038280D@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_00A23AFE-992D-41CC-B1E0-84F611D2890E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:02:42 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Emo-dir] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 22:02:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_00A23AFE-992D-41CC-B1E0-84F611D2890E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 2/08/2021, at 9:51 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 02-Aug-21 08:44, Michael Richardson wrote: >>=20 >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Who keeps an eye on the tools material on the IETF web site? >>=20 >> AMSL can do updates, and emails to support@ietf.org work well for = this. >=20 > Yes, but I think that they can't be expected to be proactive in > identifying gaps and updates. When I was in the EDU team (the ancestor > of EMO) I tried to do this, but I'm not sure we really have a = mechanism > for it. For example: >=20 >>> While trying to assist a possible new contributor, I fell upon: >>> = https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tutorials/process/creating-internet= -drafts-and-rfcs/ >>> which looks badly in need of a refresh to me. For example, it misses = the excellent tutorial at: >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-edu-sessf-ho= w-to-create-an-internet-draft-using-xml-or-markdown-markdown-01 >=20 > Who decides that this is the latest & best material to promote > on the site? Not my job, and probably not AMSL's. >=20 >>> We can have the best tools in the world, but they are no good to >>> newcomers unless the main IETF web site is actively maintained. >>=20 >> I'd put the ietf.org contents on a gitlab and take pull requests. >=20 > I don't know if the content management system could work like that, > but I agree that crowdsourcing of some kind would be handy. The outline plan that a bunch of us are putting together for community = consultation is for a new wiki to be added at authors.ietf.org = that=20 - replaces the current info on www.ietf.org and = tools.ietf.org and so becomes the one stop shop = for authors (at this stage, not planning to recommend that AUTH48 = documentation also moves from rfc-editor.org )=20= - has a mix of 'official' and community content=20 - encourages the developers of tools to maintain a part of this site = about their tool so that we always have up to date info - uses wiki.js so that it can have it=E2=80=99s content synchronised = with GitHub as per all the discussions above, all written in markdown, = etc It would be useful to hear if this is on the right lines before the = proposal is fully fleshed out? Jay >=20 > Brian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Emo-dir mailing list > Emo-dir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_00A23AFE-992D-41CC-B1E0-84F611D2890E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 2/08/2021, at 9:51 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On = 02-Aug-21 08:44, Michael Richardson wrote:

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
Who keeps an eye on the = tools material on the IETF web site?

AMSL can do updates, and emails to support@ietf.org work = well for this.

Yes, but I = think that they can't be expected to be proactive in
identifying gaps and updates. When I was in the EDU team (the = ancestor
of EMO) I tried to do this, but I'm not sure we = really have a mechanism
for it. For example:

While trying to assist a possible new = contributor, I fell upon:
https://www.ietf.org/about/participate/tutorials/process/creati= ng-internet-drafts-and-rfcs/
which looks badly in need = of a refresh to me. For example, it misses the excellent tutorial at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-e= du-sessf-how-to-create-an-internet-draft-using-xml-or-markdown-markdown-01=

Who decides that = this is the latest & best material to promote
on the = site? Not my job, and probably not AMSL's.

We can have the best tools in the world, but they are no good = to
newcomers unless the main IETF web site is actively = maintained.

I'd put the ietf.org contents on a gitlab = and take pull requests.

I = don't know if the content management system could work like that,
but I agree that crowdsourcing of some kind would be = handy.

The outline plan that a bunch of us are putting = together for community consultation is for a new wiki to be added at authors.ietf.org that 

- replaces the current info on www.ietf.org and tools.ietf.org and so = becomes the one stop shop for authors (at this stage, not planning to = recommend that AUTH48 documentation also moves from rfc-editor.org) 

-= has a mix of 'official' and community content 

- encourages the developers of tools to maintain a = part of this site about their tool so that we always have up to date = info

- uses wiki.js so that it can = have it=E2=80=99s content synchronised with GitHub as per all the = discussions above, all written in markdown, etc

It would be useful to hear if this is on the right = lines before the proposal is fully fleshed out?

Jay


=   Brian

_______________________________________________
Emo-dir mailing list
Emo-dir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/emo-dir

=
-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_00A23AFE-992D-41CC-B1E0-84F611D2890E-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 15:29:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93803A14BB; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:29:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGktahreDOcy; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A9E03A15BB; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4921D38A25; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7tsUPn17E9NN; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1598538A22; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2EBB24; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 18:29:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley , Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <19CFE784-F20A-42B8-929B-46CF7038280D@ietf.org> References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> <19CFE784-F20A-42B8-929B-46CF7038280D@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Emo-dir] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 22:29:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > The outline plan that a bunch of us are putting together for community > consultation is for a new wiki to be added at authors.ietf.org > that I like it. > It would be useful to hear if this is on the right lines before the > proposal is fully fleshed out? I think so. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEHIDoACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW60gf/SMMJrq11FC7MzZIBNC5UOyoo7oVUafYmHTW5NxVW0KGZYjJG6x0MMaUm MT3VXiATAKixa3NLEjxuxty+0KHyLNEuyBRpd6ckaZ6AcY31dZDb/TXi6LuD3eiy WyyRZBJ3W0X7o6B2ZCLEYZM6EkEubvlUB6GTPksXMNExm8uWJoV9AE5CkwHK4Q5g TM6UxdWfuf1v9McwsMXVtUQl+4JbIlhbu0jMTfTF+gZ3ogPVe6qZBa4vLJzYhysS 454Mf4O1/ZBZ0oedQpDe3yrsmU/7lPXgu/6Pm0Pw1lPXWkGendozwQALaa7mAjq5 mnS71o2ufoOU5RwgIsUgVr3n/1ZoLw== =W3k4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 1 15:59:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21363A16BF; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KJeEhRsffm_G; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102e.google.com (mail-pj1-x102e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE3743A16BB; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 15:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102e.google.com with SMTP id u9-20020a17090a1f09b029017554809f35so28790286pja.5; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:59:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=w0HeulZbE307CP8T02IKsX1ot/BsAAuz+8koPJKL3CY=; b=SOmQdbM+Rsj/irkNWrZuf4sGYUxYd8vAS8FWqUvtwzN/XDdAZ9AWgvFuCCL3hBVT/T nPt7btw+4FFXthadcH8g1dP3i9uOLLlc/AKne9t+1L757UzjIqEftroKRkJoS31LpnMX uSJf8xQBQp+p77H/DSs/M5becoQ+qsiylBx5uMl0MVUPKEHk34miMhFYX8OI2oCrp2Ri R+Oh4kyRkN/dGyuuwOW1mjfVjHQsNAi6SuDrYaS9WtX1kYwcDhhjWEp313Zq+n5gUkcs AgSHA3abwAQpgWo4KNwGY8jVjRdFfQMBOLKc/l4b/kEj84umzSTLbSTv+X/ud+b4GXIQ zb0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=w0HeulZbE307CP8T02IKsX1ot/BsAAuz+8koPJKL3CY=; b=bkIxWqMv1NXmGET95r0D2yTckG6ji4MkPlqbqJG7JltyV98aZZ34ZbAPIZr7HI1b7s 8BNGFWwwsm2Fn2XbRonnF64jbc4vdecta//oJzAdDJ1LEEiMz/LWTFRcpOQiA8ioXLtp yS956bTuKkRHPZY1KuXJYfLyM3AW7+awBOAeUrTbulRnkkFdZkMbjat1FCM7VmSAl4yR qciRx3h2sezFLM8Jr/lYV2vqZ/nyIkbGa7YKWAyvpJKBY0I28dv1Zgw3f/G8ZXusdk/x jLOSHyJCQQzApcXjJnNTifkzeipIdpEFVISryZVKrtnKJOGJTYW1StQEY38+jhggInuC RRqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532HRuN1GG2EnSGm3Wh3D0lDfY9Mh+eI2egV3RgLRjzObyJDFzOi +yFN/8lUGiwFL7F5MeQVO+vSOd9nX3a/rw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9r4WDvIO7VyG1zFg2VcLPaURXnQcy1Y6NlXVhQyj8CvTMLYAW3mTrgRQ+VPz/A+6qjSkUsg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b116:b029:12b:84fa:8c70 with SMTP id q22-20020a170902b116b029012b84fa8c70mr11796968plr.40.1627858758626; Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1188:5b01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w5sm9616927pfq.130.2021.08.01.15.59.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Aug 2021 15:59:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Richardson , Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> <19CFE784-F20A-42B8-929B-46CF7038280D@ietf.org> <29368.1627856955@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:59:13 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29368.1627856955@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Emo-dir] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2021 22:59:27 -0000 On 02-Aug-21 10:29, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Jay Daley wrote: > > The outline plan that a bunch of us are putting together for comm= unity > > consultation is for a new wiki to be added at authors.ietf.org > > that >=20 > I like it. >=20 > > It would be useful to hear if this is on the right lines before t= he > > proposal is fully fleshed out? >=20 > I think so. I agree, for experienced users. My immediate concern is helping an absolute beginner, and they need something kinder and gentler such as an up to date tutorial. But I'm sure EMO is thinking about this. Brian >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons= ulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Aug 1 22:33:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8703A0A0C for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rBw_QAbRV_fZ for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 935C83A0A08 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2021 22:33:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1627882386; bh=/BW8VmDB39KJvzW1Ltb9gwq5HvloOdUawJ/tJAJKZcY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Qz6aWZAFZcun3VLB/fYY4btgNY6k7SuySfJ0OExtd/+ylD6e1WuJOQU2wnlLPnw50 04j5SS+ti4SQSLeNDXlSdDF02yxcj/OVhk4BA+dvq704pV4GNLPl4GBA4u+JSRJl11 yGEE971KeaGrRffEadbqtGGWOPme01fw3Rbr4ufw= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [172.16.1.70] ([212.205.152.82]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MTABZ-1mbDKv0d3P-00UbHm; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 07:33:06 +0200 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <4d70a1ac-a275-420a-83f6-99dfd5b5385c@www.fastmail.com> <19431.1627486962@localhost> <15399.1627683281@localhost> <4F450849-DEF3-4C66-9D9B-336016BD798F@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 07:33:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4F450849-DEF3-4C66-9D9B-336016BD798F@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Ob/CVVf7JluCpZfEdc3eE07ql9Ry9qwu7FHmkuiBpFOGmjpWtj2 inUg/nQey/Xh7gyf2pR87+O5n/f31q/HCxpFvierU2K4OSnl0hD/ZGjMvcam+aYme+3Moh0 CKeLdo8sZR+kGUAseHbCbDGJpf6sKyt2pT+3aHgf7ac7NfwkAGBIF19eJn3/gmCYxpThulg e0LLQb3MD4ORA+ENDCQng== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:SzJtmMg2bgQ=:nJPgWzSkN9r315XzFhciVK 8EwcfWxQec20xjdb2A4U6jm73A9LnL7vK48sXN3fg3us6ycqC8cYk493b80vAm2EXDhPaV4HY 6p/QcWC0gt+olMsXgXoeOBTmsbzxlpzyUM30lU6PftvmIKtz+qKJ48rV342ZGArolpCnWX1B/ 5eopegkvAqIYOUeUpgKmlL8smVDi7oIDsrfz3zkqeOsPnOD4iVtP4d+/N885yphh8eBJVkg5W FGXamwtked1x1GorZTjspg2+uSIH5ari1OF57LW6S4daTSK3b3jKKk0mFovX/OuzjmjZKf7Sr PIOTHGCqheMa63bz+XOOxUnrQgT4BpKLIh+5rWhu/+mNp/wN6AYApsQjt81WO2lOPVTOWTbsu R70+GJLYKjnEZG1rhy+tAUWJ3d4RZVkgyGy6fWMiek7nT3UdtcQ85cHWCTzP280+80/jmGCem oTxjkrirAtd/wJJmldhcAkW1/m6vKUZB9EBzn2J92YYADY41H/q4pkrD4gBJMyZN3+b2dZkw1 bPLOVzlDy/k7pDvoQxszFrfjyOrWbSCeLIm02ey/ElX8pr9jwWJsd9mktVDw/RRLAoZi062h6 Q8LUpfsj3tIDOQgv0PPCahTHpLdD/DRuBsmVsG8jXPrtC0fSvjB4QcW91uQMLt6yp3hOHxRGe TXBVuNaJkFpZR9d+TK+5ex2IaG9MaG+Py7+qJzfug9ryi/kuxdDaYX4KH/G7YDKTKmm2zabs8 kLlHIKFW2MB8LJXn266sRY/wZ+kQJJj2eSrNJrfuVbK/pek+ABR2z3aG/WY6o44J3OUyDbc4z +yrIn1F847qT4L9QOWCBpU2mM+eAJxPTQXLp4K5bYfYBOV8wTBR6aAzJM65laKyUcUDWwdXNi 9zlXZsBsGG73YqROHyimoiVYUPSqzbfpp+p8ELO5cy09EO48H0WLatJxVQkakIFc6aNanCXEH PMeMJ2ZWnpdrECKy2yWMY1EwomkhpWCl3kss/VZjMmYEjmTezvQ50mYhprI6RQxwXZuN+F8WU KgQZvCrvr86VKjUrfPO1D3wqg5aGCtweO7xwsPNepGU9fFyiLBVK5aEo/9ViSp2890j608UMF DaQPA6lcSkjUf4ejgzZj41PehHYSIwWVmzDSIgIiVmq3vG1B4N2kFaqng== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Why do we even have text formats any more? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 05:33:26 -0000 Am 01.08.2021 um 17:55 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2021-07-31, at 06:31, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> "extra stuff" such as? > > Wrong question. It's the question I was interested in. > Currently, we generate a TXT format from the XML, which (possibly among = other renditions) is checked by the authors during AUTH48. This format is= there guaranteed to have the information that should survive a copy/paste= into another text document (e.g., the comments in a program). > > The HTML plus the not further defined, platform specific conversion from= HTML to TXT does not give us these assurances. So removing the TXT forma= t removes reliable copy/paste into other plaintext documents. > > 2=E2=81=B6=E2=81=B4 becomes 264. =E2=80=9C =E2=80=9C becomes . Etc. And that actually is an answer to me question! > (Note that there are occasionally discussions to remove information from= the TXT format to make it look more like the HTML, in particular because = it would sometimes require information from the authors to always do this = information generation properly for the TXT form. These discussions need = to be informed by the need to copy/paste RFC snippets into plaintext docum= ents.) I agree that it would be good to compile a list of use cases. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Aug 2 04:10:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028533A18C4; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 04:10:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TKv5VuN-DVaI; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 04:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34D7B3A18BF; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 04:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id c18so16180164qke.2; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 04:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=frU8NqLt8uq1sYs0GmLDlSqZ2N1C6m66BkaW4yp3P34=; b=pKPYvOJ0b7ZGf4ZzJhnvixChoONhVOHiOM+7MEva/NAygpFWCdPaDkV47ekWn7f/Fd 5lN/QME9qXLdpSM/flurmbtEo8EiOPKcgOhedrnCao6YHIGh3iRH2SD8qvmR8IFqqrQv sLm+yvjiQv5P2gnEDbJ3zIY/d1s7MioMAIhCWj/E36dspkknxT6SnEzdKzg/olylbUlO I3ou0HYDy6QEotIMBUMwCXQFQoV4jQGHBB3S/MuYcD8ztk+syP9R4rRnKDRyjUpqmokT O2mHZ6mBXyohEyGESVqxRwM4irWHyLMpKOqOfqpOZwWtfZSgNBJfx5RbY8tI9sKknyxt ax4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=frU8NqLt8uq1sYs0GmLDlSqZ2N1C6m66BkaW4yp3P34=; b=g/LErwzgUpoxY8f1RqsQOaRJ20c6us1T7+5OHpnCd4jbPQneFi38Wem5/8PMwrfIN+ ybjsvPFpx/MDTGoDNiNyFys6uuk6QgHoID2ipAGWjYQUMjHeHuMurmU3juNJXMZJV99T rZSNa1+MaLkYuBroCCXhj4g9+77tJC2T+3WWGLTOMlk+SrgZJzaY1nvH2dytVVo0lzX7 xzoCy4S30OUvaT/gAeY4Wk81NYiIoPf+HctlxuTCZJvvSdadHSxTtJQbwAdo1Ft+fD+v aXcoTJpJwBzNovZuLG03rd+tyIVuxFSGfcK8Bd2M7KuTNalIgkEnneIGJzkhCBGwIGZ4 Atsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tT7EQHn9KiOB3x+L/2yT0W3WSfRfgObQbJzcn+DnZaz4Wrguw zGeeuflsOxJXn14WWRmfpwNQuxA7ZrQyYXC79RM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx3rjZaovTWXAeiSEFnE4Gv9Vka0TlnooZRH7bFa+RjZUNqUCHgUf/5U4762i6Giu0W1uhVLNsHC6xdIAXHWE4= X-Received: by 2002:a37:2d04:: with SMTP id t4mr15755975qkh.160.1627902626810; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 04:10:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> <27783.1627850234@localhost> In-Reply-To: <27783.1627850234@localhost> From: Jonathan Morton Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:10:15 +0300 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 11:10:34 -0000 On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 23:37, Michael Richardson wrote: > > *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds* > > The video image does do the yellow square when they are speaking. > > > See my previous email :) Basically the "participant list" should just > > be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to > > when seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to them > > (and people don't get moved out of order when they're sending > > something). The "who is sending something" list should be all together > > with the video, and chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing right > > now. > > I think that I need a picture. So, currently we have the Chairs and any "active" participants (hand up, mic and/or camera open, presenting slides or screen) moving dynamically to the top of the Participants list on the left. This makes it easy to find the Chairs, but if looking for a particular person in the list, you have to check both the top of the list and their alphabetical position, since their dynamic status could place them either way. By default the Participants list is also hidden when you're reading the chat, and vice versa. And currently the list of video thumbnails on the right is *strictly* those people with a camera open, whether or not they have the mic open or are active in some other way. The proposal here is to include *anyone* who would normally be moved to the top of the Participants list in the list of video thumbnails, and make the Participants list mostly static (only Chairs at the top). The thumbnail for people without a camera on would be the profile pic if they have one, supplemented by the appropriate participation icons (hand, microphone, screen, slides). This gives a natural place to show speaking cues, so you can see at a glance who is actually speaking. > As my meetecho windows are more vertical than horizontal, I'd also like to be > able to move the video boxes to be under the slides. This also seems like a valid optimisation of screen real estate. The thumbnail list should lie along the edge of the window that is least pressured by the presentation area. - Jonathan Morton From nobody Mon Aug 2 08:01:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630373A0816; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CZZGV4jbkxtP; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F10D43A005E; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.60) by ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be (10.112.11.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:07:56 +0200 Received: from ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::95e5:f544:83cb:4f98]) by ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be ([fe80::95e5:f544:83cb:4f98%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.015; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:07:56 +0200 X-Kuleuven: This mail passed the K.U.Leuven mailcluster From: Robin Marx To: John Levine , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" , "111attendees@ietf.org" <111attendees@ietf.org> CC: "stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie" Thread-Topic: [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? Thread-Index: AQHXhYVF3Y3PSlmN1EW2J9yE70IWGKtb7OcAgAAYYgCAATthgIAAD+GAgAAJKoCAAULwgIAAD8EAgABNEwCAAAlQAIAA3Kow Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 08:07:56 +0000 Message-ID: <49976630e58949fca366641118be302f@ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be> References: <20210801205621.427F0257240C@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20210801205621.427F0257240C@ary.qy> Accept-Language: en-GB, nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.112.50.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 08:10:26 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? 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Mon, 02 Aug 2021 10:02:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20210801205621.427F0257240C@ary.qy> <49976630e58949fca366641118be302f@ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be> In-Reply-To: <49976630e58949fca366641118be302f@ICTS-S-EXMBX25.luna.kuleuven.be> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 12:02:29 -0500 Message-ID: To: "111attendees@ietf.org" <111attendees@ietf.org> Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ad7bf05c8968a32" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Why do we allow people to edit CodiMD meeting notes who are not logged in? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 17:03:01 -0000 --0000000000006ad7bf05c8968a32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just to back up slightly in this thread, Knowing who the (other) note-takers are is valuable, especially if you suddenly realize that the (other) note-taker is presenting, or involved in a long mike exchange (not naming names here). Whether or not I'm officially taking notes, I always log in to make sure that the unfortunate note-takers have been able to translate Spencer-speak to What Spencer Meant. That does mean I often make edits on things other people said, because I was pretty sure that the notes missed something significant. I had no idea that I could change permissions on pages I created. https://codimd.ietf.org/features#Permissions was enlightening. While we're chatting here - I created ComiMD pages for at least two or three side meetings, which were really useful in every case. That's not a problem, is it? And if it's OK, is a name like https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-SATCOM-side-meeting good enough? Best, Spencer --0000000000006ad7bf05c8968a32 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to back up slightly in this thread,= =C2=A0

Knowing who the (ot= her) note-takers are is valuable, especially if you suddenly realize that t= he (other) note-taker is presenting, or involved in a long mike exchange (n= ot naming names here).=C2=A0

Whether o= r not I'm officially taking notes, I always log in to make sure that th= e unfortunate note-takers have been able to translate Spencer-speak to What= Spencer Meant. That does mean I often make edits on things other people sa= id, because I was pretty sure that the notes missed something significant.<= /div>

I had no idea that I could change permissions on p= ages I created. ht= tps://codimd.ietf.org/features#Permissions was enlightening.
=
While we're chatting here - I created ComiMD pages for a= t least two or three side meetings, which were really useful=C2=A0in every = case. That's not a problem, is it? And if it's OK, is a name like= =C2=A0https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-111-SATCOM-side-meeting good enoug= h?

Best,

Spencer
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-0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 12:25:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092b96f05c896dc68" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 17:26:01 -0000 --00000000000092b96f05c896dc68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 4:14 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > To your list, I would add auto-unmuting (and even more importantly, > muting) when people enter and exit the head of the queue. This would remove > a lot of goofy behavior. > Yeah, and I'd suggest auto-muting video when you leave the queue, just because "lowering your hand" could mean "I'm out of the line, I don't have anything else to say, and you don't need to see me any more". That would have fixed all *my *goofy Meetecho behavior. Fixing goofy things I say with audio enabled is, of course, harder ... Best, Spencer --00000000000092b96f05c896dc68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 4:14 PM Eric Resc= orla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

To your list, I would add auto-unmuting (and even more important= ly, muting) when people enter and exit the head of the queue. This would re= move a lot of goofy behavior.

Y= eah, and I'd suggest auto-muting video when you leave the queue, just b= ecause "lowering your hand" could mean "I'm out of the l= ine, I don't have anything else to say, and you don't need to see m= e any more".=C2=A0

That would have fixed all = my goofy Meetecho behavior. Fixing goofy things I say with audio ena= bled=C2=A0is, of course, harder ...

Best,

Spencer
--00000000000092b96f05c896dc68-- From nobody Mon Aug 2 10:30:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D3B3A112C for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kc4hCutxsxDN for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 430EF3A1126 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id v16so9923755vss.7 for ; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 10:30:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PKDLDRy7JCafSCDSRF74ldSRLmgRMoO4oL7207mlXKk=; b=dVBOsJjLdSvVhc1+ATvU7pFHp0AaUPgl1vZptGMEJeaz/sSvuysl7Gha9e2yE4aJv6 hucPZYOjJkZDLy46TEa0Ast+Qp+44UXwS4IvU8VC1B1xkI89yXqWZ15cqeFgSs4d6EnK 9DH6YVrkVar7jD1Qmm0fAyGUCOt/uWgjD5Wl2bQbCcCUuqi61xxmbfDcL8qQkm3NCOUS EthJ6zCvJaiePJ+wSvdDJMdloczjFjiHA+1DVMXY9Yuww52JF2sIe6t5VxvA7PpASydu BMp3UYwPSj92UUsDE89htrtJ3ruknE1A7vOypa8oHBiLpcT5kPBeD6mVizwdIFS5ES46 zyww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PKDLDRy7JCafSCDSRF74ldSRLmgRMoO4oL7207mlXKk=; b=oA2HJ/s419nKlPxKxiv9RygnLMA+Pwo6ogs7VlqLoG+y0MqLQ5QdPt5rmgeX9JcBR5 NFmgPv+u7DZclDQ3BgYOVonWcxSVEbl57epqFN1eQxne/4Qioy4sIT2gB4mF74So7UI1 jv55fH4wLaj1f/pbhZCKi9oHseHy32VbUYyFLQ1laq3cvgtdVElE2Nnmig8ualU9guVk NXKsAoIOlKHdnrUGZtGZcaVahhEiQUdxCxwPze6f79Se7FEE4ZQshbR55dVS8LfERq/m oM5/a/Zk8vZjd7QZtsw+ez+rsqbwpnGI8wgKuZYU60UQYH0foQk20oP86LhR1SlhUlVm zA5g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532KNoLvJ2QGstXJHzQMQ2w098M5HV5IJLfS/mU66Zwn5O2WFztZ e0RuskHOL9JSKIlZlsT/t84AI2imI4vXnS64/fPzheIK X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7g5SVBOlXt028O23nChH/00O2B6xq6CIYCpyEUzSd6nSht5ziQez5/IrLNwmRdc47kqlDm7CiafRTv4SmYoc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f854:: with SMTP id b20mr11555908vsp.32.1627925429443; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 10:30:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 12:30:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mike Bishop Cc: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1643205c896ece7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 17:30:37 -0000 --000000000000f1643205c896ece7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mike, On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 12:22 PM Mike Bishop wrote: > Let me add to the suggestion that names of speakers appear in the video > view -- the recorded sessions which are posted to YouTube don't have name= s > associated with the video, or with audio-only speakers. Because everyone > is looking at the MeetEcho UI, last names aren't typically being used, > which means I have to guess who is making particular comments when watchi= ng > the recordings. > > I'd like to suggest that the idea of having icons of audio-only > participants be expanded to the recordings, and that participants with > video have names attached to the video in the recording. > Yeah, it would be good to look seriously at the YouTube videos and figure out what else we're missing from the video feed. I was thinking about "comments made in Jabber", but your observations are also things worth fixing, and (especially if we make a habit of sticking jabber logs into minutes or otherwise making links to the jabber logs YouTube-visible) more useful for more people. Best, Spencer > Thanks! > > -----Original Message----- > From: 111attendees <111attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Meetecho > IETF support > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:38 PM > To: 111attendees@ietf.org > Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for > improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actual= ly > doing, these days?) > > All, > > chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your > feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the futur= e > releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points raised as > soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the meeting is over. > > Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org and setting the reply-to header > to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements a= nd > provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect. > > Best, > Alessandro > > Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto: > > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has > > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add > > a couple of things ... > > > > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the > > Meetecho guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was > > co-chairing in Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped > > in a team member from Italy during the discussion using whatever the > > toolset was back then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've > improved =F0=9F=98=80). > > > > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and > > usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF > > meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not > > having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months > > between meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, > > that will help me remember more clearly, so good there, too. > > > > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure > > out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long > > list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above > > the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the > > active speaker names in the screen space where their video would have > > gone, if the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is > > that it's helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the > minutes. > > That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people > > sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very > > distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing > > names when I'm taking minutes. . > > > > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was > > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target > > audience for our conferencing tool is. > > > > * For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for > > remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors). > > But I do have tiled windows on all three screens. > > * If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor > > screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting. > > * If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some > > scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference > > rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out, > > front to back in the conference rooms). > > * Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some > > working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to > > co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting. > > * When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group > > participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims, > > the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I > > haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand > > that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as > > some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have > > experience with that? > > > > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and > > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course. > > > > Best, > > > > Spencer > > > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley > > wrote: > > > > Thanks Bron. Personally I think that=E2=80=99s a great usability a= djustment > > and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider. > > > > Jay > > > > > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana > > wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a > > contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well > > together. If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly= . > > >> > > >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern > > that you have with our services into such a strong criticism when > > that is entirely unsupported by any evidence. > > > > > > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetech= o > > is counterproductive. They've done great work for the last couple > > of IETFs and the experience is improving each time. I have > > particularly appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sur= e > > that will be even better next time too. > > > > > > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think > > there's a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way > > that will be noticed"? I've seen the suggestion made very many > > times that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have > > additional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that > > information being at the top of the participant list. This is much > > more like the experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom > > shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody who isn't > > currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the same" a= s > > a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look fo= r > > their presence by default. > > > > > > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are > > when people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I > > need to look across to the other side of the screen to see the audi= o > > indication. > > > > > > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the > > participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to > > the top when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position. > > This is also a usability pain. Separating "the list of > > participants" (which wouldn't move about) and "the list of people > > sending something" with the video and audio indications being > > together in one place would be a significant improvement. And as a= n > > additional benefit, when you're looking at the chat window, you > > would still be able to see all the details of who is sending > > (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your > > own audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's > > audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under your own > > name). > > > > > > > > > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also > > still have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds > > would each have a "here's what's being sent". Chairs would always > > have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently > > sending - and the "participants" tab would only have the list of > > participants, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity, > > so you could mostly keep the chat tab open. > > > > > > Bron. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > > > brong@fastmailteam.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > > 111attendees mailing list > > > 111attendees@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > > > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > IETF Executive Director > > jay@ietf.org > > > > -- > > 111attendees mailing list > > 111attendees@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > > > > > > > > -- > 111attendees mailing list > 111attendees@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000f1643205c896ece7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Mike,=C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 12:22 PM Mike B= ishop <mbishop@evequefou.be&= gt; wrote:
Let m= e add to the suggestion that names of speakers appear in the video view -- = the recorded sessions which are posted to YouTube don't have names asso= ciated with the video, or with audio-only speakers.=C2=A0 Because everyone = is looking at the MeetEcho UI, last names aren't typically being used, = which means I have to guess who is making particular comments when watching= the recordings.

I'd like to suggest that the idea of having icons of audio-only partici= pants be expanded to the recordings, and that participants with video have = names attached to the video in the recording.

Yeah, it would be good to look seriously at the YouTube videos and f= igure out what else we're missing from the video feed. I was thinking a= bout "comments made in Jabber", but your observations are also th= ings worth fixing, and (especially if we make a habit of sticking jabber lo= gs into minutes or otherwise making links to the jabber logs YouTube-visibl= e) more useful for more people.=C2=A0

Best,
<= div>
Spencer
=C2=A0
Thanks!

-----Original Message-----
From: 111attendees <111attendees-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Meetecho = IETF support
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 3:38 PM
To: 111attendees= @ietf.org
Cc: tools-discu= ss@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improve= ments to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing,= these days?)

All,

chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your feedba= ck. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the future re= leases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points raised as = soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the meeting is over.
Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org and setting the reply-to header to t= hat list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements and= provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect.

Best,
Alessandro

Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto:
> I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has=
> morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add =
> a couple of things ...
>
> I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the
> Meetecho guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was
> co-chairing in Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped <= br> > in a team member from Italy during the discussion using whatever the <= br> > toolset was back then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they'v= e improved=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=80).
>
> I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and =
> usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF=
> meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not =
> having THAT much experience with=C2=A0Meetecho during the four months =
> between meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, <= br> > that will help me remember more clearly, so good there, too.
>
> The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to fig= ure
> out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's = a long
> list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above=
> the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the
> active speaker names in the screen space where their video would have =
> gone, if the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is=
> that it's helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right= in the minutes.
> That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what= people
> sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a v= ery
> distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing=
> names when I'm taking minutes. .
>
> The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was=
> that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target =
> audience for our conferencing tool is.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT se= tup for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25= -inch monitors).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But I do have tiled windows on all three screens. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0* If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dol= lars at monitor
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0screens are part of our target audience, that's= worth noting.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in = at least some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetech= o in the conference
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so m= ore spread out,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0front to back in the conference rooms).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've pa= rticipated in some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wa= sn't tryng to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting= .
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0* When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar worki= ng group
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0participants about switching to Meetecho for our (m= onthy) interims,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the first question we got was, "is there an iO= S/Adroid client?" I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, = but I'd bet offhand
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as = easy to use as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0some other conferencing systems, on those devices. = Do people have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0experience with that?
>
> I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations a= nd
> proposals. Make Good Choices, of course.
>
> Best,
>
> Spencer
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org
> <mailto:jay@ietf.= org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks Bron.=C2=A0 Personally I think that=E2=80=99= s a great usability adjustment
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to c= onsider.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana <= ;brong@fastmail= team.com
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wro= te:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho= into being "just a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contractor", they are a valued partner and we = work very well
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0together.=C2=A0 If you have any doubts about that t= hen ask them directly.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> It is disappointing that you have escalat= ed a personal concern
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that you have with our services into such a strong = criticism when
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that is entirely unsupported by any evidence.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this = attitude to Meetecho
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is counterproductive.=C2=A0 They've done great = work for the last couple
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of IETFs and the experience is improving each time.= =C2=A0 I have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0particularly appreciated the embedded slide managem= ent, and I'm sure
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that will be even better next time too.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Regarding the specific interface issues that = remain, I do think
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0there's a question of "where do we propose= improvements in a way
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that will be noticed"?=C2=A0 I've seen the= suggestion made very many
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0times that the "speaker" area (where the = video shows) should have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0additional lines for each person sending anything, = rather than that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information being at the top of the participant lis= t.=C2=A0 This is much
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more like the experience with other chat systems, f= or example Zoom
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody w= ho isn't
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently sending video, but they're otherwise = treated "the same" as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a person sending video in terms of real-estate and = where to look for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0their presence by default.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally= at the video are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when people are speaking, but if a non-video person= is speaking I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0need to look across to the other side of the screen= to see the audio
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0indication.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And as was also suggested in this thread, you= can't scroll the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0participant list to find someone to chat to, becaus= e they jump to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the top when they are sending, then back to alphabe= tical position.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is also a usability pain.=C2=A0 Separating &qu= ot;the list of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0participants" (which wouldn't move about) = and "the list of people
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sending something" with the video and audio in= dications being
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0together in one place would be a significant improv= ement.=C2=A0 And as an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0additional benefit, when you're looking at the = chat window, you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would still be able to see all the details of who i= s sending
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(including yourself - if you're sending then th= e indicator of your
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0own audio should be the same as the indicator of ev= eryone else's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0audio, rather than being in yet a third location up= under your own
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0name).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <image.png>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > So those two names would appear in the right = hand side, and also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0still have their name in the participant list, and = the video feeds
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would each have a "here's what's being= sent".=C2=A0 Chairs would always
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a presence on the right, with whatever they we= re currently
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sending - and the "participants" tab woul= d only have the list of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0participants, and not be a place you needed to go t= o see activity,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so you could mostly keep the chat tab open.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Bron.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty = Ltd
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > brong@fastmailteam.com <mailto:brong@fastmailteam.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 111attendees mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 111attendees@ietf.org <mailto:111attendees@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/111attendees
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/111attendees>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jay Daley
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Executive Director
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0j= ay@ietf.org <mailto:jay@ietf.org>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0111attendees mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0111attendees@ietf.org <mailto:111attendees@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/111attendees
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/111attendees>
>
>

--
111attendees mailing list
111attendees@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees=
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--000000000000f1643205c896ece7-- From nobody Mon Aug 2 10:48:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EB73A1228; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEVp2bR4bDmL; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03D373A1225; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9753AE269; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 19:48:03 +0200 (CEST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Meetecho IETF support , 111attendees@ietf.org References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 10:48:01 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 17:48:13 -0000 One use of the Meetecho recording is to prepare minutes by double checking notes. One issue with that is that sometimes a presenter answers comments made in the chat, but the chat log does not appear in the recording. The person preparing the minutes now has to open the minutes, try to synchronize then with the recording and update the minutes to reflect the question/comment that triggers the response by the presenter. There is two issues with that: 1. Someone watching only the recording only have access to half of that conversation and may not know where the chat logs are, or even that they was a chat running along the session. 2. People taking notes must follow both the chat and the presenter, which could be a bit too much. I do not think that recording the chat at the same time than the presenter would be a good idea (OTOH displaying the name of the person talking in the recording even if they did not turn on video would help). The reason is that not all the content of the chat log is relevant for the WG business (that's an understatement). Having a jabber scribe and some discipline may help: The jabber scribe repeats the chat comment/question, and the presenters does not try to look at the chat, and so now the whole context is captured. But that's still a bit clunky -- a presenter may want to comment on something that someone said in the chat room even if it was not marked as a question that the Jabber scribe must relay. After all the chat logs are under NOTE WELL, so they are part of the WG session -- and should be part of the minutes, at least the relevant parts. My suggestion would be to use TTS to supplement or replace the Jabber scribe. A remote presenter who want to answer/comment on a chat message triggers TTS on the message itself, which now becomes part of the recording -- and of the minutes. With a local presenter the Jabber scribe could also use that TTS feature. On 7/30/21 12:38 PM, Meetecho IETF support wrote: > All, > > chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the meeting is over. > > Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org and setting the reply-to header to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect. > > Best, > Alessandro > [...] -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug From nobody Mon Aug 2 11:45:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E593A1652; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:45:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IiL2_3pBky6A; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DECED3A1655; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 11:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9576B389B4; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id SIn871D68FRN; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D023899C; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F123515B; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 14:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jonathan Morton cc: Bron Gondwana , 111attendees@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> <27783.1627850234@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 14:44:58 -0400 Message-ID: <29711.1627929898@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2021 18:45:25 -0000 Jonathan Morton wrote: > The proposal here is to include *anyone* who would normally be moved to > the top of the Participants list in the list of video thumbnails, and > make the Participants list mostly static (only Chairs at the top). The > thumbnail for people without a camera on would be the profile pic if > they have one, supplemented by the appropriate participation icons > (hand, microphone, screen, slides). This gives a natural place to show > speaking cues, so you can see at a glance who is actually speaking. I understand now. This would be good. >> As my meetecho windows are more vertical than horizontal, I'd also >> like to be able to move the video boxes to be under the slides. > This also seems like a valid optimisation of screen real estate. The > thumbnail list should lie along the edge of the window that is least > pressured by the presentation area. +1 From nobody Tue Aug 3 06:46:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944C43A2480 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 986eNVlzCPll for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpcmd10102.aruba.it (smtpcmd10102.aruba.it [62.149.156.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083673A247E for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 06:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.62] ([93.40.13.11]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id AukFm6TFVnyXHAukFmTNE8; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 15:46:12 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1627998372; bh=Hc2/f7ge7K2UoPGtqgS+PnA3P8V1UwqxF5kPwPdF5gI=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RaEuD6ALLwKHE2ZrDylCYmQddFbALLxVEctuYf+m/LlGj5vPyFvxLUdHKxtmHk+G+ Kh+vY6SfkxrKLdok4ys84Y/VawMCegApIDvxtezviU8EHlQcYQYOxAGso2QA84VIeP qLY4Oc0ttBUSG111wlJFViq/QvQqHNzzznSbGyyob6sQt/r8+1vwyT8dDjuEnJJHiL b8K/FF8ZNguYb1JaSwc9CRxGdAzQgcPqmk1MMhTikKNrM0hdzMRoF/LPIa/gOucZhJ gqNELnk7YooqjyxCOQ+NDCNozzo9AFSNb81uYrMJWqULbfMdFEc8YEzmScgXiBbhSk KPqkPw8txU56Q== To: Bron Gondwana , tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: 111attendees@ietf.org References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> From: Meetecho IETF support Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:46:11 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfILMjM5tXHGIc0B8W4aYeJ7zHE/Vzg8iDI0hxuatmNOwgumcR8+ncxJnC+OAPntfbvSKtcvcATjB7PzoMVEEfFIforwAYEaGJsywflnAAs1Y4lX46X7j Z0ulp6t0SPtYotMYyVvGDOhApfmTIPoft/t/HXxQMorZTytC2B2XN7YLd3CvRNEc6sdPYgzhy7fzCPMZsLmGTMA+jm+Xq1cqYvDhEcbnpTJ1ccL5DQi871Qa Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 13:46:22 -0000 Hi Bron, Il 30/07/21 23:02, Bron Gondwana ha scritto: > Ooh, we're going a full "suggestions for meetecho" thread?  I'd like to > propose some things! > > *that we replace the current "raise hands" tool:* > > *... *which is based on an expired draft which isn't going to be > refreshed - with a better tool that allows the chairs to: > > a) label each option > b) have more than 2 options (max 9 maybe) > c) select between "choose one" and "choose N" modes (checkbox vs radio > button) > > ... and which appears IN PLACE of the slides when enabled, so that > meeting participants don't have to navigate to a separate tab to interact. I agree this would improve usability. > More generally, it's too easy for some participants to be lost on > different tabs where they can't see the slides.  The multiple views > where you can see individual talking heads in more detail are not > actually valuable I don't think - if slides are showing they should be > the bulk of the screen because they need to be read - This is not always true. As you may have noticed, when a new slide deck/screen share is started you are automatically brought to the "presentation view", i.e., the one that shows it. But I think you should still have the power to manually switch to the "gallery view" at anytime. A good example are the open mic sessions during the Plenary: a static slide is always up just saying, e.g., "IAB Open Mic", and I usually switch to gallery view to focus on the faces answering questions. I've seen the same pattern also in several WG meeting sessions, where the last slide of a deck is displayed for a long time while discussing how to move forward with the draft. > and if a poll is showing then for sure it should be taking over the screen. Agreed. > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:* > > This is still an issue for me.  I often mute myself while chairing so I > can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat - but it > means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the rejigging of > the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the incoming audio feed > which means I might miss something someone says, but it also creates > enough of a delay that by the time I could have responded the other > party's mental state has moved on. > > Timing is really important in conversation and we're already fighting > with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the planet. > Additional delay makes it unwieldy. Noted. I personally like the idea of a temporary mute mode which just stops sending audio on the track without affecting the underlying WebRTC PeerConnection. We'll look into that. > *allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:* > > I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my > desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to another > location while continuing to follow a meeting.  Multiple connection > support would mean I could switch over without a break. > > Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would be > pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given that we > allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused significantly. > Sure there are Jabber naming issues, but we can avoid that by giving > each jabber name with a serial number (which I believe already happens now?) > > ... > > I've already written these up separately in the past, but: > > *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds* > > See my previous email :)  Basically the "participant list" should just > be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be switched to when > seeing who is in the call or opening an individual message to them (and > people don't get moved out of order when they're sending something). > The "who is sending something" list should be all together with the > video, and chairs pinned even if they're sending nothing right now. > > Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people so > we know who of those with their audio channel open are currently > speaking, this makes it easier to look in one place to see the source of > all sound, and eyes can generally flit between the right hand side > (video and audio indicators) and the slides, without needing to also > track via the participant list. I agree that we should make it easier to find who's speaking when they have not video turned on. > *flexible "assign chair"**:* > > This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings are > pre-assigned from datatracker.  It would be great for ADs and the > meetecho reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a chair > role or remove a chair role with a simple click. > > In real rooms, anyone can go sit in the chair at the front of the room, > and it's not abused because of social convention.  I believe that we can > map that to this virtual space and still have it work sensibly.  People > won't take the chair unless there's a legitimate reason to do it, and so > long as it's logged - if someone does consistently abuse it we have > processes to eject them from the IETF for misbehaviour. > > This has become less important with the ability for individuals to turn > on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less busywork > just approving access, but it would be good to make it possible for > someone else to step into the chair if the regular chairs are unable to > attend or lose network, rather than making the meeting less able to run. I personally don't agree on this. I think that chairing a WG meeting session requires a minimum of preparation in order to be effective, so I think it needs to be arranged at least a few hours in advance. In this way the acting chairs can be aware of which button to press to, e.g., pre-load slide decks, start a poll, manage the queue, etc.. Within such minimum preparation there can be the request to add the acting chairs to the Datatracker, so that they can be recognized as chairs when they join. Please note that the Meetecho team already has a button that allows them to upgrade/demote roles within a session, so it would be super easy to also provide ADs with such powers. I just don't think it's the right thing to do: the Datatracker is where roles are stored and retrieved, and it's where such roles should be changed (even temporarily) IMO. Cheers, Alessandro > Bron. > > On Sat, Jul 31, 2021, at 05:38, Meetecho IETF support wrote: >> All, >> >> chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your >> feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the >> future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points >> raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the >> meeting is over. >> >> Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org >> and setting the reply-to header >> to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss enhancements >> and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect. >> >> Best, >> Alessandro >> >> Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto: >> > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this thread has >> > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I might add a >> > couple of things ... >> > >> > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the >> Meetecho >> > guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in >> > Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team member >> > from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was back >> > then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved 😀). >> > >> > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and >> > usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of each IETF >> > meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result of not >> > having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months >> between >> > meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, that will >> > help me remember more clearly, so good there, too. >> > >> > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to figure >> > out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a long >> > list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers above >> > the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the active >> > speaker names in the screen space where their video would have gone, if >> > the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is that it's >> > helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the minutes. >> > That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what people >> > sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a very >> > distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on seeing >> names >> > when I'm taking minutes. . >> > >> > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this thread, was >> > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the target >> > audience for our conferencing tool is. >> > >> >   * For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for >> >     remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch monitors). >> >     But I do have tiled windows on all three screens. >> >   * If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at monitor >> >     screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting. >> >   * If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least some >> >     scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the conference >> >     rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more spread out, >> >     front to back in the conference rooms). >> >   * Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated in some >> >     working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to >> >     co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting. >> >   * When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group >> >     participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) interims, >> >     the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid client?" I >> >     haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet offhand >> >     that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to use as >> >     some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people have >> >     experience with that? >> > >> > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations and >> > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Spencer >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley > >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >     Thanks Bron.  Personally I think that’s a great usability adjustment >> >     and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider. >> > >> >     Jay >> > >> >      > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana >> >> >     >> >> wrote: >> >      > >> >      > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote: >> >      >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a >> >     contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well >> >     together.  If you have any doubts about that then ask them directly. >> >      >> >> >      >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal concern >> >     that you have with our services into such a strong criticism when >> >     that is entirely unsupported by any evidence. >> >      > >> >      > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to Meetecho >> >     is counterproductive.  They've done great work for the last couple >> >     of IETFs and the experience is improving each time.  I have >> >     particularly appreciated the embedded slide management, and I'm sure >> >     that will be even better next time too. >> >      > >> >      > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do think >> >     there's a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way >> >     that will be noticed"?  I've seen the suggestion made very many >> >     times that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should have >> >     additional lines for each person sending anything, rather than that >> >     information being at the top of the participant list.  This is much >> >     more like the experience with other chat systems, for example Zoom >> >     shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody who isn't >> >     currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the same" as >> >     a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to look for >> >     their presence by default. >> >      > >> >      > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the video are >> >     when people are speaking, but if a non-video person is speaking I >> >     need to look across to the other side of the screen to see the audio >> >     indication. >> >      > >> >      > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't scroll the >> >     participant list to find someone to chat to, because they jump to >> >     the top when they are sending, then back to alphabetical position. >> >     This is also a usability pain.  Separating "the list of >> >     participants" (which wouldn't move about) and "the list of people >> >     sending something" with the video and audio indications being >> >     together in one place would be a significant improvement.  And as an >> >     additional benefit, when you're looking at the chat window, you >> >     would still be able to see all the details of who is sending >> >     (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator of your >> >     own audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's >> >     audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under your own >> >     name). >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, and also >> >     still have their name in the participant list, and the video feeds >> >     would each have a "here's what's being sent".  Chairs would always >> >     have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently >> >     sending - and the "participants" tab would only have the list of >> >     participants, and not be a place you needed to go to see activity, >> >     so you could mostly keep the chat tab open. >> >      > >> >      > Bron. >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > -- >> >      >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >> >      > brong@fastmailteam.com >> > >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > -- >> >      > 111attendees mailing list >> >      > 111attendees@ietf.org >> > >> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> >     > > >> > >> >     -- >> >     Jay Daley >> >     IETF Executive Director >> > jay@ietf.org > > >> > >> >     -- >> >     111attendees mailing list >> > 111attendees@ietf.org >> > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> >     > > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> 111attendees mailing list >> 111attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> > > -- >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >   brong@fastmailteam.com > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Tue Aug 3 07:04:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26293A24F1 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gGQ5HF67DnrJ for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpcmd10102.aruba.it (smtpcmd10102.aruba.it [62.149.156.102]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C653A24F5 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.62] ([93.40.13.11]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id Av1cm6oeonyXHAv1cmTYja; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:04:09 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1627999449; bh=LMCCSn0hSKNKVKj1x8tGpUpShpVd7eeYV9CJk0ntJ9c=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=bewsw0mcW92pQdYcrTXPoDsLRji5nBB/FMfHFmxtTXU1IPuA6WNMTOS4ISKTjTXNL lsVRiDNCrnirZKXhlI8ctjEqlWsCV8yBErUqCXQX8ngYcMuUcEnLUMSNlcgd1v34l6 8ezqiD9bDlPAzPLvZ3jyQUyfwzk6p1ddVubc7EA5LGz2QpK4wy3b3ZdCbBkxNJ4Gqu IOv+47tejkVExwPoJwxw6r2amm43X91WKsTJUw2mgJB9TAPXFW4RTfEwTO13SF+dAe 5W2UDEeSnCug+prCuU2Q7WR3kpYfznTrgKZB4i5MKPslwgqYMjU4nB58LTY704bIdx p7ZmVwpeGvp/g== To: Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss Cc: 111attendees@ietf.org, Bron Gondwana References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> <99ae28be-dd15-4018-bccc-a1f61ce19e47@dogfood.fastmail.com> From: Meetecho IETF support Message-ID: <8723f74d-92b6-3835-397c-710fea654f08@meetecho.com> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:04:08 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfAoPoApZm2ySl/PDJNTXtm0hx2Q7UWShVXeu52nQHxXHrZg6tUsFL8FEDm9bsfwFoTqDDwBn1P6L+h5pEDL6tBu6Ad3f3JkXKCeWS3x8Pr6DEZnuIkhh 1bCMeC+c5jT1+AGKqRkLXi0vI+7c9Nv4qM6HZH4AANqYoxz9HayAjllxIo5scqVsddnWE1P9bAHz2TD4DIPzWHS9bX4af4DwZZ99bRakPV3MqrqwEh/+eG9o EwAASj+Tjer1UpUzKyggNw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 14:04:17 -0000 Hi EKR, Il 30/07/21 23:13, Eric Rescorla ha scritto: > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 2:03 PM Bron Gondwana > wrote: > > Ooh, we're going a full "suggestions for meetecho" thread?  I'd like > to propose some things! > > *that we replace the current "raise hands" tool:* > > *... *which is based on an expired draft which isn't going to be > refreshed - with a better tool that allows the chairs to: > > a) label each option > b) have more than 2 options (max 9 maybe) > c) select between "choose one" and "choose N" modes (checkbox vs > radio button) > > ... and which appears IN PLACE of the slides when enabled, so that > meeting participants don't have to navigate to a separate tab to > interact. > > More generally, it's too easy for some participants to be lost on > different tabs where they can't see the slides.  The multiple views > where you can see individual talking heads in more detail are not > actually valuable I don't think - if slides are showing they should > be the bulk of the screen because they need to be read - and if a > poll is showing then for sure it should be taking over the screen. > > > EKR Raises Hand. > > > *a "temporary mute" mode that keeps the audio stream open:* > > This is still an issue for me.  I often mute myself while chairing > so I can take notes without my keyboard sound interrupting the chat > - but it means that I can't easily respond to somebody because the > rejigging of the audio channel not only creates a hiccup in the > incoming audio feed which means I might miss something someone says, > but it also creates enough of a delay that by the time I could have > responded the other party's mental state has moved on. > > Timing is really important in conversation and we're already > fighting with the quarter second delay imposed by the size of the > planet.  Additional delay makes it unwieldy. > > > Note that this is a respect in which Meetecho is unusual. Most other VC > systems which I am familiar with just stop sending on the track but keep > the microphone open rather than dropping the media stream and re-calling > getUserMedia(). we have been actually required to implement such behavior a long time ago by the IETF, as we have been told that the tool should not have access to your mic or webcam devices if you're just an "observer" and not really intend to send media. I understand things and needs might have changed now, so we're happy to explore alternatives (see the "temporary mute" suggested by Bron). > To your list, I would add auto-unmuting (and even more importantly, > muting) when people enter and exit the head of the queue. This would > remove a lot of goofy behavior. I personally don't agree on this. My opinion is that that unmuting should never be triggered by somebody else's action, e.g., when you're second in line and the person ahead of you leaves the queue. A long time might have passed since you joined the queue, you might be doing something completely different of even speaking to a different WG session, and you don't want your mic to be turned on automatically. Cheers, Alessandro > -Ekr > > > > > *allow multiple connections by the same person to the same session:* > > I have multiple times wanted to switch device temporarily - from my > desktop computer to a phone / ipad so I can temporarily move to > another location while continuing to follow a meeting.  Multiple > connection support would mean I could switch over without a break. > > Sure it could be abused by people "sharing" a login, but that would > be pretty obvious if both parties tried to participate, and given > that we allow fee waivers anyway, it's unlikely to be abused > significantly.  Sure there are Jabber naming issues, but we can > avoid that by giving each jabber name with a serial number (which I > believe already happens now?) > > ... > > I've already written these up separately in the past, but: > > *information about who is speaking in the same place as video feeds* > > See my previous email :)  Basically the "participant list" should > just be an ordered list of participants and only needs to be > switched to when seeing who is in the call or opening an individual > message to them (and people don't get moved out of order when > they're sending something).  The "who is sending something" list > should be all together with the video, and chairs pinned even if > they're sending nothing right now. > > Along with visual indicators of "currently sending audio" on people > so we know who of those with their audio channel open are currently > speaking, this makes it easier to look in one place to see the > source of all sound, and eyes can generally flit between the right > hand side (video and audio indicators) and the slides, without > needing to also track via the participant list. > > *flexible "assign chair"**:* > > This one hasn't come up in practice, but the chairs for meetings are > pre-assigned from datatracker.  It would be great for ADs and the > meetecho reps in each meeting to be able to upgrade anybody to a > chair role or remove a chair role with a simple click. > > In real rooms, anyone can go sit in the chair at the front of the > room, and it's not abused because of social convention.  I believe > that we can map that to this virtual space and still have it work > sensibly.  People won't take the chair unless there's a legitimate > reason to do it, and so long as it's logged - if someone does > consistently abuse it we have processes to eject them from the IETF > for misbehaviour. > > This has become less important with the ability for individuals to > turn on both audio and video themselves, so the chair is going less > busywork just approving access, but it would be good to make it > possible for someone else to step into the chair if the regular > chairs are unable to attend or lose network, rather than making the > meeting less able to run. > > Bron. > > On Sat, Jul 31, 2021, at 05:38, Meetecho IETF support wrote: >> All, >> >> chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your >> feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the >> future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points >> raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the >> meeting is over. >> >> Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org >> and setting the reply-to header >> to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss >> enhancements >> and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect. >> >> Best, >> Alessandro >> >> Il 30/07/21 19:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF ha scritto: >> > I should have changed the Subject a LONG time ago! But this >> thread has >> > morphed into helpful observations and suggestions, so, if I >> might add a >> > couple of things ... >> > >> > I agree that Meetecho has been improving (and just for fun, the >> Meetecho >> > guys were participants in the MEDIACTL session I was co-chairing in >> > Hiroshima at IETF 76 in November 2009, and they roped in a team >> member >> > from Italy during the discussion using whatever the toolset was >> back >> > then, so many of you have no idea how MUCH they've improved 😀). >> > >> > I see that we've already mentioned detaching the chat window, and >> > usually I remember that we can detach the chat by Tuesday of >> each IETF >> > meeting week at the latest, which is almost certainly a result >> of not >> > having THAT much experience with Meetecho during the four months >> between >> > meetings. Now that we can use Meetecho for interim meetings, >> that will >> > help me remember more clearly, so good there, too. >> > >> > The one thing I've noticed this week is how difficult it is to >> figure >> > out who is speaking if they aren't sending video, and there's a >> long >> > list of people in the queue. The suggestion to move the speakers >> above >> > the queue would improve that, and so would simply displaying the >> active >> > speaker names in the screen space where their video would have >> gone, if >> > the person had been sending video.One reason that matters, is >> that it's >> > helpful for everyone to get the speaker's name right in the >> minutes. >> > That's not just for new attendees, I'm starting to forget what >> people >> > sound like, unless I'm talking to them regularly, or they have a >> very >> > distinctive speech pattern, so I've definitely depending on >> seeing names >> > when I'm taking minutes. . >> > >> > The one thing I was thinking about, as I read through this >> thread, was >> > that we are kinda *not *talking about what the IETF thinks the >> target >> > audience for our conferencing tool is. >> > >> >   * For probably the last couple of IETFs, I have a GREAT setup for >> >     remote participation (my laptop screen, plus two 25-inch >> monitors). >> >     But I do have tiled windows on all three screens. >> >   * If we think people who can't throw a few hundred dollars at >> monitor >> >     screens are part of our target audience, that's worth noting. >> >   * If we think we're going to have hybrid meetings, in at least >> some >> >     scenarios, it's going to be good to use Meetecho in the >> conference >> >     rooms (especially if we need to be distancing, so more >> spread out, >> >     front to back in the conference rooms). >> >   * Even if we aren't doing hybrid meetings, I've participated >> in some >> >     working group meetings from my hotel room, but I wasn't tryng to >> >     co-chair a meeting, or even to present at a meeting. >> >   * When Michael Richardson and I talked to the Cellar working group >> >     participants about switching to Meetecho for our (monthy) >> interims, >> >     the first question we got was, "is there an iOS/Adroid >> client?" I >> >     haven't checked Meetecho on my phone in years, but I'd bet >> offhand >> >     that (1) it would work, but (2) it might not be as easy to >> use as >> >     some other conferencing systems, on those devices. Do people >> have >> >     experience with that? >> > >> > I'll let you folks continue to share these positive observations >> and >> > proposals. Make Good Choices, of course. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > Spencer >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 6:15 PM Jay Daley > >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >     Thanks Bron.  Personally I think that’s a great usability >> adjustment >> >     and will forward to the Meetecho team for them to consider. >> > >> >     Jay >> > >> >      > On 30/07/2021, at 10:58 AM, Bron Gondwana >> >> >     > >> wrote: >> >      > >> >      > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021, at 05:21, Jay Daley wrote: >> >      >> No we have absolutely not pushed Meetecho into being "just a >> >     contractor", they are a valued partner and we work very well >> >     together.  If you have any doubts about that then ask them >> directly. >> >      >> >> >      >> It is disappointing that you have escalated a personal >> concern >> >     that you have with our services into such a strong criticism >> when >> >     that is entirely unsupported by any evidence. >> >      > >> >      > Jay, I agree with your sentiment here - this attitude to >> Meetecho >> >     is counterproductive.  They've done great work for the last >> couple >> >     of IETFs and the experience is improving each time.  I have >> >     particularly appreciated the embedded slide management, and >> I'm sure >> >     that will be even better next time too. >> >      > >> >      > Regarding the specific interface issues that remain, I do >> think >> >     there's a question of "where do we propose improvements in a way >> >     that will be noticed"?  I've seen the suggestion made very many >> >     times that the "speaker" area (where the video shows) should >> have >> >     additional lines for each person sending anything, rather >> than that >> >     information being at the top of the participant list.  This >> is much >> >     more like the experience with other chat systems, for >> example Zoom >> >     shows either a photo or a blank item for somebody who isn't >> >     currently sending video, but they're otherwise treated "the >> same" as >> >     a person sending video in terms of real-estate and where to >> look for >> >     their presence by default. >> >      > >> >      > Right now with meetecho, my eyes are normally at the >> video are >> >     when people are speaking, but if a non-video person is >> speaking I >> >     need to look across to the other side of the screen to see >> the audio >> >     indication. >> >      > >> >      > And as was also suggested in this thread, you can't >> scroll the >> >     participant list to find someone to chat to, because they >> jump to >> >     the top when they are sending, then back to alphabetical >> position. >> >     This is also a usability pain.  Separating "the list of >> >     participants" (which wouldn't move about) and "the list of >> people >> >     sending something" with the video and audio indications being >> >     together in one place would be a significant improvement. >> And as an >> >     additional benefit, when you're looking at the chat window, you >> >     would still be able to see all the details of who is sending >> >     (including yourself - if you're sending then the indicator >> of your >> >     own audio should be the same as the indicator of everyone else's >> >     audio, rather than being in yet a third location up under >> your own >> >     name). >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > So those two names would appear in the right hand side, >> and also >> >     still have their name in the participant list, and the video >> feeds >> >     would each have a "here's what's being sent".  Chairs would >> always >> >     have a presence on the right, with whatever they were currently >> >     sending - and the "participants" tab would only have the list of >> >     participants, and not be a place you needed to go to see >> activity, >> >     so you could mostly keep the chat tab open. >> >      > >> >      > Bron. >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > -- >> >      >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd >> >      > brong@fastmailteam.com >> > >> >      > >> >      > >> >      > -- >> >      > 111attendees mailing list >> >      > 111attendees@ietf.org >> > >> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> >     > > >> > >> >     -- >> >     Jay Daley >> >     IETF Executive Director >> > jay@ietf.org > > >> > >> >     -- >> >     111attendees mailing list >> > 111attendees@ietf.org >> > >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> >     > > >> > >> > >> >> -- >> 111attendees mailing list >> 111attendees@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/111attendees >> >> > > -- >   Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > brong@fastmailteam.com > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > From nobody Tue Aug 3 07:36:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7723A25E0 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.499, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aruba.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pHktK4co5S8I for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpcmd10101.aruba.it (smtpcmd10101.aruba.it [62.149.156.101]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681D83A25E1 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 07:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.62] ([93.40.13.11]) by Aruba Outgoing Smtp with ESMTPSA id AvX6m7PpUnyXHAvX6mTuIu; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:36:41 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aruba.it; s=a1; t=1628001401; bh=Ek3uBrSSN1UTQqBq/QOl28ZQlGBH2XB1NP+5aLO5NeM=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UiFqc19YUEQqMhDHiWjzZE3hcmsU+YaoBlwW+yHfQRq+Rw+IQ2jvU7kRvabceUph9 O637IxBm2sPf5YrQ94qS9tKILJTZSknlOj3irJvWc03zx83csc0kTa837JgPMYs2Ou uEi/35mHDN5mw8fiOPRwaZiQGHGkB4oh31eIaXnlMfvw88y0cBJ9j4Rw2ULvuSsGOn CER8/HRiP8JQol/FUMp+WN3uxJDxAzFbb9BKYOejYanIqHS5Kb7LVIF9zgI5NtwKWn 64rDBw7k3mQhId3SCw9sAOzUgI51MDw3PkmYEmnFdZWfr8NvZEbl9Obftk1B14EB8K VcObejlQELzQg== To: Marc Petit-Huguenin , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> Cc: 111attendees@ietf.org From: Meetecho IETF support Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 16:36:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/78.0 Thunderbird/78.11.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPieQXzZC6Gx1fLdGCZ9ODgEQbrlcA3Jg4DBMgA3Fh8lWoxy/Fgm4bOlnr+pc/4cNp+uBylK4SLedcjHV94tNprN5N8w3PKTHu3yUbV2m1+ySjzU/dL6 9khN2Soiwbq8IXq4FBQgCPgwhxWu80cCVmBY+QCT7hBMFAFaNfEqPL2JCcU2JqBye/UiZ40LCtoiKKtGxP/waToOpbwM5/7/H8x+wFCkDqPswykIY3lIOEUV Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 14:36:49 -0000 Hi Marc, while the TTS suggestion is interesting and worth exploring, in the short run I think it might be worth revamping the custom recording player we had in the past, which integrated the YouTube video, the Jabber logs and also the audio transcripts automatically generated by YouTube. See for instance: https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=IETF106-DISPATCH-20191118-1000 Cheers, Alessandro Il 02/08/21 19:48, Marc Petit-Huguenin ha scritto: > One use of the Meetecho recording is to prepare minutes by double > checking notes.  One issue with that is that sometimes a presenter > answers comments made in the chat, but the chat log does not appear in > the recording.  The person preparing the minutes now has to open the > minutes, try to synchronize then with the recording and update the > minutes to reflect the question/comment that triggers the response by > the presenter.  There is two issues with that: > > 1. Someone watching only the recording only have access to half of that > conversation and may not know where the chat logs are, or even that they > was a chat running along the session. > 2. People taking notes must follow both the chat and the presenter, > which could be a bit too much. > > I do not think that recording the chat at the same time than the > presenter would be a good idea (OTOH displaying the name of the person > talking in the recording even if they did not turn on video would > help).  The reason is that not all the content of the chat log is > relevant for the WG business (that's an understatement). > > Having a jabber scribe and some discipline may help: The jabber scribe > repeats the chat comment/question, and the presenters does not try to > look at the chat, and so now the whole context is captured. > > But that's still a bit clunky -- a presenter may want to comment on > something that someone said in the chat room even if it was not marked > as a question that the Jabber scribe must relay.  After all the chat > logs are under NOTE WELL, so they are part of the WG session -- and > should be part of the minutes, at least the relevant parts. > > My suggestion would be to use TTS to supplement or replace the Jabber > scribe.  A remote presenter who want to answer/comment on a chat message > triggers TTS on the message itself, which now becomes part of the > recording -- and of the minutes.  With a local presenter the Jabber > scribe could also use that TTS feature. > > On 7/30/21 12:38 PM, Meetecho IETF support wrote: >> All, >> >> chiming in just to say that we at Meetecho appreciate and value your >> feedback. We'll definitely take it into account when developing the >> future releases of the platform. We'll provide comments on the points >> raised as soon as we get the chance to parse them, i.e., when the >> meeting is over. >> >> Also, I'm cc'ing tools-discuss@ietf.org and setting the reply-to >> header to that list as well, as that's the right place to discuss >> enhancements and provide feedback that would be easier for us to collect. >> >> Best, >> Alessandro >> > [...] > From nobody Tue Aug 3 11:29:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5043A2C92; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:25:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hj8emf5MEPL5; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2e.google.com (mail-io1-xd2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E08F3A2C93; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2e.google.com with SMTP id r6so17037831ioj.8; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SF1unQ5bP4RgizJ/BJSbylSHzkE/goGij5YxAe0LQmE=; b=g98k6XVZrzpv0O2SpKx/tz0KZFMrQ2O/0xlb7bgxJ0KX7xgVIX54CI7iFpYxEcedyV jqqQbXnT0Xvd1AylwyKxV2POGsj89BQHDixwOS0jWug0qT8vF2p1tyHYZASfvm7xTh8E scYo0w4VqEIHoqhltNPIodqJPaGSkyIs6XGAFnksvaqG3HsX2G00xz2ZcKh8eTfIyxzT 9YDd+9EtzirPyfBn/TH3aND9ExWEnCQfJA1QsGaxrtHiwkKkuJC2eCDrPE53MOu/v19N 83e7P6C4PDwqN0KTcljomnIL8mQd2RL65wV8c3yiw5324o1x4LmE3+Rdl4PoWK0QzwlY vcwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SF1unQ5bP4RgizJ/BJSbylSHzkE/goGij5YxAe0LQmE=; b=rtZi7Y7/l5ophrLiYKEZhL7ZFqQETiGk+EqOpASW5CzwVjNHiJnTqiaaZQKbAFe7KY UmFpqIeLTpAj3gP2QjdE6vhQU20cGIWRqrxbLra2pISdzWVqRz9s+DaH8yuPd0HEv0Vh X72BfyEAIEmcTgoNuJJ1JAlIrYyh9pm/ugQLHUyvxlRSuowOT3ijDpfwYOYhxFNYa2hH HaJH6o54QKdXaLPHDXRAWbjWrKutfUvosXSoyctz2MMMA8lKpVRojUD72gsoY04FO2ST S4i6uvWfMULqSsUTTmuLdx/z/+gXZSgIouFy5BzCGk3AHysTul+iKy6MbPW50SrOFlNV dcvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533nVQve5tdVB0wImo54rFx3as8Q0PYi/MTtZrhh35t0g97Ctf1W 2QX8DcomH0pm9x8kZ9/6ORMBT8OGjQ75XQMXwjc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6DmngMnd+ybCFkvJVZ0Us2StUGX25dGs385MZHsq75WZZz8x4a+bHMw/z0hdlwS0F0Uveq2Yz90vi/7m4eDk= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:db03:: with SMTP id t3mr1392348ioc.3.1628015098991; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 11:24:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <407cb4bb-b1f3-b991-e198-0a04b1f6bd1b@gmail.com> <29840.1627850678@localhost> <19CFE784-F20A-42B8-929B-46CF7038280D@ietf.org> <29368.1627856955@localhost> In-Reply-To: From: Joey Salazar Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 12:25:49 -0600 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Michael Richardson , Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org, emo-dir@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aa18df05c8abcd41" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 11:29:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Emo-dir] Tools info on the main IETF web site X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:25:05 -0000 --000000000000aa18df05c8abcd41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 4:59 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02-Aug-21 10:29, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > Jay Daley wrote: > > > The outline plan that a bunch of us are putting together for > community > > > consultation is for a new wiki to be added at authors.ietf.org > > > that > > > > I like it. > Me too, very looking forward to collaborating on that. > > > > > It would be useful to hear if this is on the right lines before the > > > proposal is fully fleshed out? > > > > I think so. > I think the 'mix of 'official' and community content' is a great idea as it gives flexibility on approaching topics like "working as part of a team" and "how to deal with dissent/disagreement" that new authors might find challenging. Having the authors guidance centralized is a very good step imo. I agree, for experienced users. My immediate concern is helping an > absolute beginner, and they need something kinder and gentler such > as an up to date tutorial. But I'm sure EMO is thinking about this. > Indeed emodir is thinking along those lines. We'll aim to complement what the community consultation focuses on. I agree guidance for beginners and first-time would-be-authors is very much needed. -- Joey Salazar IETF emodir Co-coordinator --000000000000aa18df05c8abcd41 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 4:59 PM Brian = E Carpenter wrote:
On 02-Aug-21 10:29, Michael Richardson wrote:
>
> Jay Daley <jay@ie= tf.org> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The outline plan that a bunch of us are puttin= g together for community
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> consultation is for a new wiki to be added at = au= thors.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <http://authors.ietf.org/> that
>
> I like it.
Me too, very looking forward to collab= orating on that.
=C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> It would be useful to hear if this is on the r= ight lines before the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> proposal is fully fleshed out?
>
> I think so.
I think the 'mix of 'official= ' and community content' is a great idea as it gives flexibility on= approaching topics like "working as part of a team" and "ho= w to deal with dissent/disagreement" that new authors might find chall= enging. Having the authors guidance centralized is a very good step imo.

I agree= , for experienced users. My immediate concern is helping an
absolute beginner, and they need something kinder and gentler such
as an up to date tutorial. But I'm sure EMO is thinking about this.
=
Indeed emodir is thinking along those lines. We'll ai= m to complement what the community consultation focuses on. I agree guidanc= e for beginners and first-time would-be-authors is very much needed.
<= /div>

--
Joey = Salazar
IETF emodir
Co-coordinator
--000000000000aa18df05c8abcd41-- From nobody Tue Aug 3 18:26:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 944123A3AAD; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kGCajkKfXhhT; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF0463A3AAB; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id v3so328712uau.3; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uNxLxPOCKPPheDnSpHjG/BBr07qwP5+781nqDg7DQY0=; b=CMvjItLc7EDHMdE9bKROrPiV8yhjMi9njMDofPwbmrEdFR+Uub3wMf44OABYrGzTr8 Cu2zvf02xy5FgKinOPVmtKSQ0Ty10LFdYBa2gGC5bKRQNvT+L3bjb+CTx5FZUWyuua+k U0sPulWKEEZzzTotGGns9zGRQNvvF6pIH6PTc24DrE+sGX35AeLcTnv2K1Uo3EoSgN/7 yB3FnWH6kluF+P1akHkiRuRJeNwrnaPX8xuTF5f7MiltJsLd9BhVkK9F3RrBXoCh/hPk /HFxq6Ldv8Yopg69Jynhh4hEPoF4XlsKiRH97GMIPiR5OAROS1TSrPPraaqKZUmvDG3i VtEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uNxLxPOCKPPheDnSpHjG/BBr07qwP5+781nqDg7DQY0=; b=DcP9V0IQRmDNeDQjkoj/a/QrN+VjpS+fU/5iJNBRkqIGzlvxbRzKxn+1t67A763o+F QoeEwdJ4pPB/rjJ+0UBsZqmJadSP/O1sDtBRjZRbZxLzpnW4q1bPiw2sNmCRoVYaIUtX S8S4+e+yKuTZRhw4a2W4A9fZmgm8RmNWaN31eryWOSMn9wLk/Ax72nsQ5Q5HiPHw8N4A dDWuN+tVtECeIF5J19kXDcDUCPfTlweqwM1JKE8hvYZpszNXBk+zY1f/FlAV57CyEftr G2CUGB9q3cHafzjKArFMpwfwJzA3ZQ5F5vB+8XP3DBbPJN6Y83HleYGd+kU1xF3SatrG 6Pjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530AwF8pfqFjeuob6/9LWhJg8ypUQY7sDPmIA+F6RAmg66LGdL9M Ql+vGm6+/PSJEf3KjpzQ18k6B6eUThhxsTrFak6VQJy7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDnH+rby6Rbs3vLx32im4Alvgg2Q/Cbloq2HhPCYRWz3llFXKyh8p/FI9Fcg5i1nOHwvlTg0Q7MxTsoO/nG4o= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:3011:: with SMTP id f17mr17261433ual.118.1628040357601; Tue, 03 Aug 2021 18:25:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4268651f-6bd7-10ce-6ed8-a758bd956062@meetecho.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2021 20:25:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: Meetecho IETF support Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , Tools Team Discussion , 111attendees@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031e4ad05c8b1af36" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [111attendees] Positive observations and proposals for improvements to Meetecho (was: Re: Re: So, what are jabber scribes actually doing, these days?) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2021 01:26:04 -0000 --00000000000031e4ad05c8b1af36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Alessandro, On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 9:37 AM Meetecho IETF support wrote: > Hi Marc, > > while the TTS suggestion is interesting and worth exploring, in the > short run I think it might be worth revamping the custom recording > player we had in the past, which integrated the YouTube video, the > Jabber logs and also the audio transcripts automatically generated by > YouTube. See for instance: > > > https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=3DIETF106-DISPATCH-201911= 18-1000 > I'm sending Meetecho more email in the past 24 hours than in the previous 24 months. But YES YES YES! The audio transcript was the part that I couldn't remember! Having spent a LOT of time wandering through Jabber conversations for several years, including a couple of working group sessions where the Jabber scribe was asked to say at the Mic:, "you folks should probably be in Jabber, because that's where the REAL meeting is going on" (=F0=9F=98=89= , and I'm not naming names), I often find the side conversations incredibly helpful, but Context Also Matters, so seeing someone make a terse comment in Jabber that is synchronized with the video is helpful, while the same comment in isolation is at best confusing, and often not useful at all. The audio transcript is better than we have any right to expect for most things except technical terms and proper names. But when someone is speaking at speed, there have been times when I was checking minutes against the video, and it was still difficult to parse, so anything I could dig out of the audio transcript helps! Please do think about this in more depth. Some of us liked that ... Best, Spencer --00000000000031e4ad05c8b1af36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Alessandro,=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 = at 9:37 AM Meetecho IETF support <i= etf@meetecho.com> wrote:
Hi Marc,

while the TTS suggestion is interesting and worth exploring, in the
short run I think it might be worth revamping the custom recording
player we had in the past, which integrated the YouTube video, the
Jabber logs and also the audio transcripts automatically generated by
YouTube. See for instance:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=3DIETF106-DISPATCH-= 20191118-1000

I'm sending Meete= cho more email in the past 24 hours than in the previous 24 months. But YES= YES YES! The audio transcript was the part that I couldn't remember!= =C2=A0

Having spent a LOT of time wandering throug= h Jabber conversations for several years, including a couple of working gro= up sessions where the Jabber scribe was asked to say at the Mic:, "you= folks should probably be in Jabber, because that's where the REAL meet= ing is going on" (=F0=9F=98=89, and I'm not naming names), I often= find the side conversations incredibly helpful, but Context Also Matters, = so seeing someone make a terse comment in Jabber that is synchronized with = the video is helpful, while the same comment in isolation is at best confus= ing, and often not useful at all.=C2=A0

The audio = transcript is better than we have any right to expect for most things excep= t technical terms and proper names. But when someone is speaking at speed, = there have been times when I was checking minutes against the video, and it= was still difficult to parse, so anything I could dig out of the audio tra= nscript helps!

Please do think about this in more = depth. Some of us liked that ...

Best,
<= br>
Spencer
--00000000000031e4ad05c8b1af36-- From nobody Wed Aug 4 20:29:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694BA3A150A for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:29:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z7_9EoCcsQB9 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0B773A150C for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id q17-20020a17090a2e11b02901757deaf2c8so6661772pjd.0 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 20:29:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:thread-index :content-language; bh=7n79DzdGOzfjQI1hmeF2bf55K9E7PNey/Fy2CkwsR+4=; b=JVLuccqypatkHQOQCI7sznAjMVtZkbMAYsj1FDlcT/+kcBiPL01MF3+Zj68T0QL5kc ZxbqparmSsoTBGOZPDkQDi0lq8NpgU2TZC6EuT/9NvEXLQmV84SeQrgP+a5ABllfDoU4 pZmjYKYHrivdnRbRQnT9PUDIYVGLa93ZY+p27mAvVlT/S6Mz/sqYhf4KgE2SjWoGmsJG oFwwSx/TAHRIvuepJSDLRb6xm8tfvkby9Pei+Y3B3eOb14EsbzVO3P2m7K2N1Oht8iPK lIR4dmA9z6m8tXKEO7JXAn0rQZQ976Q4/yuIrUD01BQ6o6gPOys6IfHBMh0EISmGGDV+ YjwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:thread-index:content-language; bh=7n79DzdGOzfjQI1hmeF2bf55K9E7PNey/Fy2CkwsR+4=; b=NqazeEqCbmLpiNQcwHFPz8OhNebBjKA4G7sMQ8HSA7fxSMjorl+sueoCkS68ZA+ixf Mo3EwrCsFSlg/QuIwm0x7ifYn+vOIgv9WU16mElCe/OrkDMFsAn4ehc6GcYDCSDtnXWj mWm6xSkQfBICWbHptNHNQ+9G3+n3xnzyLk8xQGICivEmzkKBRPkM8WDshyehHKBXAec3 NLUCIKxaKkyo6RU2OzMOdWqtTmFI/2ODWXVayW01EMdzJqdwHQJiymU8PxxO/PSukbwD v/jMkPvrCdE3S+OKSlwqYGQDLLpyrWSGGmD/fLjxQDQMmAejoJFjR3bu1r0ao/7+HRcj xy4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OpZCWWcBxzKVuyBXCzbhe/V1JxINYW1yp9tdKQLfO/rL5EiT4 4iiJQ3Rh3YPLR5RqWv0Zvyy7V9nZhDnbnw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNL8ebaYIx3mKgm5N7yqXT+6eusV/lK7W3MWEmbifX9PWCj4cC4WxhYJ/StcvsqAXRJQGXIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a389:: with SMTP id x9mr12755504pjp.167.1628134172086; Wed, 04 Aug 2021 20:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-73-158-116-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.158.116.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c12sm4415500pfl.56.2021.08.04.20.29.31 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Aug 2021 20:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 20:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01fb01d789aa$1aaf2310$500d6930$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FC_01D7896F.6E510E60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AdeJqSITqHxwSRlFQwKlMn0B4G9Efg== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Indexing RFCs and internet-drafts by Google scholar X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 03:29:39 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FC_01D7896F.6E510E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking to improve my web site by gathering citations.. It would seem useful if the crawlers would find RFCs (and I-Ds!) with the right data to be picked up: Google Scholar Help Just a suggestion. -- https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org ------=_NextPart_000_01FC_01D7896F.6E510E60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Looking to improve my web site = by gathering citations…. It would seem useful if the crawlers = would find RFCs (and I-Ds!) with the right data to be picked = up:

 

Google= Scholar Help

 

Just a = suggestion.

 

--

https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org

 

------=_NextPart_000_01FC_01D7896F.6E510E60-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 07:13:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E0D3A1382 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:13:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z0l2ArTWzGcK for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 782A03A137F for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6E3389CC for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id cWhJerTU7EW3 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2F5389CB for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84403264 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 14:13:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Is there an RFC that we can look at that has XML errata applied that we can look at? --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEL8fgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVemQf/YLHD6WaiLhqC6sNL1HUv5JZpCxl/z/Xit0JeoNClq6rDfjYVZ69of8zX IDmYLXFOceI4ZrKn1sDDM5rv70K+dayQuD6GcMJSKGwgOV4YNE7ZQJuFWw3qCrio TT0bgdxBE8JYCOjXJz7FylUON94MB7CAI6ZdDcnHyICUFDdbwKMWDvY4ifsJ3nHO igpFRdlRamVB96luEtqTDEtUt+wmX3dhZoNU7O9NDUNgZAyflHwjnXC1g5qRhok1 8+zxbCMZH0StAW03s8sUA3h95wXtIGj9jCiGQhGLyqpmZ1FDGnFyFXjG/1JLDJwi y/Amu7aMXd1V2FoUJ8aR55XRq/fhhg== =Yn+z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 07:46:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980E53A14E1 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:46:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruqF9V73Ksu3 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E01323A14E0 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip-109-42-113-74.web.vodafone.de [109.42.113.74]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GgWdp3P2Xz31NK; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:46:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8981DF7B-3F51-4E3F-9E90-129E1E84BFA1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <6070.1628172792@localhost> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 16:46:37 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-Id: <777F9C2C-7A02-4E11-B11C-110A6C0A18FB@tzi.org> References: <6070.1628172792@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 14:46:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail-8981DF7B-3F51-4E3F-9E90-129E1E84BFA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What are =E2=80=9CXML errata=E2=80=9C? Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 5. Aug 2021, at 16:13, Michael Richardson wrote= : >=20 > XML errata --Apple-Mail-8981DF7B-3F51-4E3F-9E90-129E1E84BFA1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What are =E2=80=9CXML errata=E2=80=9C?
<= br>
Sent from mobile, s= orry for terse

On= 5. Aug 2021, at 16:13, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wro= te:

XML= errata
= --Apple-Mail-8981DF7B-3F51-4E3F-9E90-129E1E84BFA1-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 08:57:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9402B3A1766 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUXAwaAPSp_x for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7534D3A1741 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 175Fus2i025972 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:56:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1628179015; bh=xIxhnBqQGyGiLiq/FjKbb8aSN9tIZTi4gqXFjH7m98I=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=G2ymaZ85xUh6G5yWFDm6XfHjIOvYFZhTITe9OlmcM6dD6VmTCrl+MEoQdVkrO2bkm +0aulEO4LSSsGt+INXw5s8DRhQ9/vkZ5fxGqcvvi7EHEhbs2HAPqs8+zb81vJfNyBM N7PH98teWVF6a1TJNCjFofaNQvRBtbZeL7wCj8D0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <6070.1628172792@localhost> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <7c48c69e-4eb0-1eb4-0476-203c36fab330@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:56:49 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6070.1628172792@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FE5DA1ED5D00F8EA8527F251" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 15:57:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FE5DA1ED5D00F8EA8527F251 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are no inline-errata views for v3 era RFCs at this time. For older RFCs, we have this: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc3261.html Is that what you are asking about? RjS On 8/5/21 9:13 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Is there an RFC that we can look at that has XML errata applied that we can > look at? > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------FE5DA1ED5D00F8EA8527F251 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There are no inline-errata views for v3 era RFCs at this time.

For older RFCs, we have this: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc3261.html

Is that what you are asking about?

RjS


On 8/5/21 9:13 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
Is there an RFC that we can look at that has XML errata applied that we can
look at?





___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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--------------FE5DA1ED5D00F8EA8527F251-- From nobody Thu Aug 5 09:26:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBB23A185E for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gCLRBx6wIzzp for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E0723A185D for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:51]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44332548042; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 3CE954E7C4D; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:26:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 18:26:35 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org Message-ID: <20210805162635.GA57091@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <6070.1628172792@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6070.1628172792@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 16:26:49 -0000 Michael, * Adding rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org mailing list as i think this is a clear cutover: a.1) I do not think that this will end up giving us necessarily what we may hope for, because it only seems to render "verified" errata and not "hold for document update" errata. a.2) I would really like to see renderings also for "hold for document update" errata, because this would help WGs to vet the need and scope of writing -bis documents. b.1) I could not find any XML example, but it does not even seem to be required to get a rendering with the applied errata: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc7950.html This is only html, not text, so it can not be fed to rfcdiff, but once you know that you have to look for the word "Expand" in the html, yo will find all those places, where "Expand" is actually a label on a button for each errata text block. b.2) It is hard to find: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7950 -> Errata exists: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7950&rec_status=0 This at least is where you should be able to find the inlined rendering, but you need to now click onto any of the verified errata and only then will you be given the rendered Errata URL. I would suggest that the rfc-editor errata page for a document prominently features the inline-rendered URL. c) I could not find any info about if/what the XML version improved over the above, so i am also still curious about that. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 05, 2021 at 10:13:12AM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Is there an RFC that we can look at that has XML errata applied that we can > look at? From nobody Thu Aug 5 09:58:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 471383A197F for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d13g5TlyQPZe for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3245B3A197C for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 09:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77391389B3; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 13:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 7W7-w-njsJDi; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC27389B0; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A318A963; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:58:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Robert Sparks cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7c48c69e-4eb0-1eb4-0476-203c36fab330@nostrum.com> References: <6070.1628172792@localhost> <7c48c69e-4eb0-1eb4-0476-203c36fab330@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 12:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: <19415.1628182715@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 16:58:46 -0000 Robert Sparks wrote: > There are no inline-errata views for v3 era RFCs at this time. Oh. I would have thought that was easier :-) > For older RFCs, we have this: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc3261.html > Is that what you are asking about? Yes, that's what I meant. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ From nobody Thu Aug 5 10:16:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CA03A1A35 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kfIX86Yde-NC for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2067E3A195F for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2021 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 175HGAug054870 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:16:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1628183771; bh=vccZyThFxAkUvA65v8qQpsH4OJHHC1lTwSAoSYXuY0I=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=QlM3HxpnD5jAEa51LAI8d+qtVRUJ9dCxv6KsLlFq2FBPAkuaVNoDMRhQ1wCNnD3nP Yt2i1aSjfoY368rjSthFp8GszotqhEHJ0u03clxrw99QSpilUjz+a/RH/8FumcApL/ ijkHW9Zb4+I0zcqbpiYatnoa0EPjI+FyDSvDtSHg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <6070.1628172792@localhost> <7c48c69e-4eb0-1eb4-0476-203c36fab330@nostrum.com> <19415.1628182715@localhost> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <0ec922a9-8994-0687-fc16-011a0a23eaaf@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2021 12:16:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19415.1628182715@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] example of RFC with Errata applied X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2021 17:16:19 -0000 On 8/5/21 11:58 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Robert Sparks wrote: > > There are no inline-errata views for v3 era RFCs at this time. > > Oh. I would have thought that was easier :-) Maybe, but it's not done yet. > > > For older RFCs, we have this: > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/inline-errata/rfc3261.html > > > Is that what you are asking about? > > Yes, that's what I meant. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ > From nobody Mon Aug 16 06:27:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC323A11C7 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 06:27:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LgtJ59sMQugw for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 06:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cl (mail.nic.cl [200.1.123.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99A953A11CD for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 06:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nic.cl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69471195D5BE7 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 09:27:36 -0400 (-04) Received: from pepino (unknown [190.163.103.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.nic.cl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 54AA0195D5B92 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 09:27:36 -0400 (-04) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 09:27:34 -0400 From: Hugo Salgado To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210816132734.GA4603@pepino> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SUOF0GtieIMvvwua" Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on Mon Aug 16 09:27:36 2021 -0400 (-04) (mail.nic.cl) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] xmpp-trial1 certificate expired X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 13:27:44 -0000 --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi all! I don't know if the xmpp-trial service is already deprecated, but the server is delivering a certificate that expired last Wednesday: "The xmpp-trial1.ietf.org certificate failed the authenticity test. verify error:num=10:certificate has expired notAfter=Aug 11 23:12:50 2021 GMT " Best regards, Hugo --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEV6FHQYxbYRHTM+xJsO5EsOb06a0FAmEaZ78ACgkQsO5EsOb0 6a0vMBAA5pEXXP7hEx91mQgaGFQiIMB/Rd1wMP6te1rb0EqOhslIWoHazrecGYwU KpHtA5stwH7S2poMp7JNCYkReMnyGPgVdQA/WH8vDfZkSMqqONljiUc9y0Wm9FEh 02n4wLRY2tH7PECrCN3JjllcY+8wOwUFbp4L2EwP6qxjujfAsnWHXJO7oT05fSUh p4veHswrld2P5BEEqEbQRYE/j2BNOTI0PcDK4d3MOJI0To+svCxCkagXxlWWbBC/ EvTKhsx2qLi8WNWWDth87n5C4lVUVunACGNiIhyyVrOpWcebVc5NNPvRYFVz73u4 Hs6OqXIf9dbLU64n5ROVTNCtoIdxngeq8GjeUSCsq/1tNdwTEFzXGn/oM+uVJlNU b/6DE63ffVUdaLcnj8579rO2IYwBEhlR5Gaq+pq1H/LBdEWQSY54Nt8oXZfdNTt0 RECQ6q8uZ9BOOZ7RxWqh8FpRDLaqvuhOpOqM2qOEPI2+xArQrUo/sYM73Fq7x3jT 2lVboRC8m063tzHnwjrYnplJF2SdfjipJ8DkswgfiAS+AV120tzYgX2C/pW5uN9x p8pHU59IIfU6JxsO6nYpUM5DncaMxJEpEaKidBT2x8KZE4icVmvicHe4a8V8bTNq q49b5LlQxJqrBEwNewZJKGlaH9ZiKVY5iRtcIo3s+XM1nGFutHo= =uouR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SUOF0GtieIMvvwua-- From nobody Fri Aug 20 03:30:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1A23A1FC6 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 03:30:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GwAogsYzNPns for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 03:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25E1E3A1FBA for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 03:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:68cd:a78c:d90d:fac0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A07E9600370 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:29:52 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1629455392; bh=DY5dJO5xm7sGQ5LRESkm49l8krKrNPhRUgOr7WXMY6k=; h=From:Subject:Date:To; b=Lpr+Rw/Y17HTpAE5rFrJHRebuqZpTYQBdjWQ1zn5/SKjEW01enCh+R8R8cGcBFkBd Cw2vTuZDObvzPNHxlq3WzFgtUdBggrH9G4Sm/nzlGDGGaeiFBJRZqTwSe1wMV8/XtD yTgOja7hL7huVP9jkpulDdcR0QchPbkXeN6/9+bI= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1D4890B-39B1-4437-A65B-A89B74F71B3B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 13:29:52 +0300 To: Tools Discussion X-MailScanner-ID: A07E9600370.A0DEB X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] d3.min.js and jquery.js for an htmlized rendering of the RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 10:30:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1D4890B-39B1-4437-A65B-A89B74F71B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I just came across this Tweet = (https://twitter.com/dret/status/1428455182397054981): > call me old-fashioned, but what's the reason why @ietf RFCs like = datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc72=E2=80=A6 aren't self-contained HTML? = they reference #D3 and #jQuery and it's not quite clear why these would = be needed for TXT with embedded HTML anchors and links. that made me check the posted link, and the person is correct in that we = do access d3.min.js and jquery.js for that htmlized rendering of the = RFC. Any reason why? Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_D1D4890B-39B1-4437-A65B-A89B74F71B3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmEfhCAACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfXWg/5ATIqvvEXVJJulLP7mVbJGqrVlaNF7J43fFF6o44clbfB1gzStPXejCGO g7wyVjfNq6giRTjzTHaBtIq/rt4OJoPpPmBU2RRRQixXkRhdXbP514rIVpTRSZdV l6I8PT7PRh1897q4wFqHMf0G4RZrGpPXGtk4c9/54f9lFsLPmzYZevcS5cIW2Djs yYLdT/ytLDcpcZZp3j00ATuLntUc6JTZWQxppeWudn62pYJVH8OU8VP/X2y5buPY 1x3tkh1JKtQUUk2+S+7ryiFJsyiwGe+Rfj01axz2j9VCaIWAj43adS5L0jPboIAL Fs0YHvkMGw2/cSkj8xDDAEjG9Jue9fyo4yJI7lzxJ93rXyc6Ahcuw3C2m8pu6dEX rdKS6juTvXRGu5NHnhW/3uy0SDH834hwTyrcdmdPFa5PzCJLSqQTipic0b3yRwuG nflyqbkd2HDU4kjl3T5MRUm/GydAFfjHMY0S8biR/ocPSyEX4+ub7rbPPxsJMaDB p2xheT5AtHUFX0vMfEcQ0mJvvWOi2IY/NkBDv7tAzPzmB9+fT+4rX/fQft5nNn+T wg48gvk5kM0rJJAcC87YBUwRiIg9Hje3AYyBGrnwD+53FVWFd4OcIwFZ6Tt0Y8hN 9W88e9oKahzoMdjgktlHzrs5IjLwhrab8uRWhu72jIcEnhaicUQ= =vu47 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D1D4890B-39B1-4437-A65B-A89B74F71B3B-- From nobody Sat Aug 21 09:40:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404CD3A13A2 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2021 09:40:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CPMMeUU2wPXD for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2021 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1D023A139A for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2021 09:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17LGe14D082336 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2021 11:40:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1629564002; bh=r4UBdNe3Veq8lLlBJ2+eCDnUzdlGkuOlOswiGXmlRC0=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=AWjdbpg/uAzSJkr+EkfJSvaL/CZ0W18xwN1RBHxHlX1/obhfeCfTwNi8m1LWtQ/d+ +3YZbPZR5NEl7LLL/tmj/yzE1rCuNzHqsRkcdhagvHQ3tJp1w4M8+SlMWshxbBfVNu scU4ZhM7Crbxn2sJ+XsGD5HVDMRTzyPpySvc84a0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <03979645-0bc8-8a96-9b9f-c1e1ed2da3b2@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 11:39:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6553E35DEC4EE38506CA6771" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] d3.min.js and jquery.js for an htmlized rendering of the RFC? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2021 16:40:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6553E35DEC4EE38506CA6771 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/20/21 5:29 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > I just came across this Tweet (https://twitter.com/dret/status/14284551= 82397054981): >> call me old-fashioned, but what's the reason why @ietf RFCs like datat= racker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc72=E2=80=A6 aren't self-contained HTML? they = reference #D3 and #jQuery and it's not quite clear why these would be nee= ded for TXT with embedded HTML anchors and links. > that made me check the posted link, and the person is correct in that w= e do access d3.min.js and jquery.js for that htmlized rendering of the RF= C. Any reason why? What we currently have is a quick port from what existed at tools. In=20 that port, we dropped some functionality that may have removed any use=20 of d3, but the page does still use jquery. One of the bits of functionality we dropped was some manipulation of the = dom to insert tags at places identified by some classes. Right now, the=20 code generates stanzas that look like '''1=20 Introduction'''. Javascript at tools used to rewrite this to be=20 '''

1 Introduction

'''. We've received one= =20 request to put it back. We could, fairly easily remove the library dependencies if we continue=20 to not do that rewriting. We could look at moving that rewriting into the rfc2html library, but=20 there are other users of that library that such a change could disrupt. > > Thanks, > Lars > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss --------------6553E35DEC4EE38506CA6771 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 8/20/21 5:29 AM, Lars Eggert wrote:
Hi,

I just came across this Tweet (https://twitter.com/dret/status/1428455182397054981):

call me old-fashioned, but what's the reason why @ietf RFCs like datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc72… aren't self-contained HTML? they reference #D3 and #jQuery and it's not quite clear why these would be needed for TXT with embedded HTML anchors and links.

that made me check the posted link, and the person is correct in that we do access d3.min.js and jquery.js for that htmlized rendering of the RFC. Any reason why?

What we currently have is a quick port from what existed at tools. In that port, we dropped some functionality that may have removed any use of d3, but the page does still use jquery.

One of the bits of functionality we dropped was some manipulation of the dom to insert tags at places identified by some classes. Right now, the code generates stanzas that look like '''<span class="h2"><a class="selflink" id="section-1" href="#section-1">1</a> Introduction</span>'''. Javascript at tools used to rewrite this to be '''<span class="h2"><h2><a class="selflink" id="section-1" href="#section-1">1</a> Introduction</h2></span>'''. We've received one request to put it back.

We could, fairly easily remove the library dependencies if we continue to not do that rewriting.

We could look at moving that rewriting into the rfc2html library, but there are other users of that library that such a change could disrupt.


Thanks,
Lars



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--------------6553E35DEC4EE38506CA6771-- From nobody Sun Aug 22 09:01:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C321B3A0C67; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6OdNdyj2KXN; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 359C53A0C64; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 09:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B74638AF6; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tLKsuLxrJKQX; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C247038AF5; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF239506; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 12:01:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org cc: glen@amsl.com X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] ML statistics X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 16:01:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glen, do we have week-on-week statistics about ML traffic for each IETF ML? Why do I care: a) identifying weeks that are bad for doing LCs (it's clear August is a challenge, but how much) b) I think that it might be interesting to know if a particular WG is exploding. We have discussed in manycouches, before it was SHMOO, about having a per-sender leaky bucket rate limit in order to allow people in more time zones to keep up, and be able to meaningfully contribute. I also pay attention to John Levine's weekly IETF@IETF summary. (I pay attention to never being at the top of the list) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEidOEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV0/ggAqRZXMqsmgKIIwJwEMJS6fvoH63S1WBo16eVtLpaG5k0t8OYHOXVqOsDQ ulNJac2LqmW8D2RnI+Yr2A9Y+37AbeYvnTR/LBzhZLS3Ls6sygb5m4fLHrJ5IaR6 JZmT5d0bH3CEdhJhb/l7QLj6Nde7eOQ/nfpHBNs9CKx43QByNVQ4PikQMfUwTSdr +XSZ8hTeXg8xccuNjUn19zrVPVQWTrRzveDHeX3qGUmvI861Qli27mUmtPH6jbH8 eG2DZfVknH6y3z5dfxEzBLl8iQ/Bv7iYFKxu96l0yqVMRDTzRbVUMuWlSdJh29qe VXVoo/jyjj+SXdfKfBoSqyH76rq05A== =u13z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 22 14:27:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77F63A1888; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dGOy0OY-QWKu; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1011A3A1883; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 14:27:09 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Executive Director Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BFC16719-4194-41F9-9438-ECF07ECBB37A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 09:27:06 +1200 In-Reply-To: <21240.1629648097@localhost> Cc: Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org, glen@amsl.com To: Michael Richardson References: <21240.1629648097@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ML statistics X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 21:27:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BFC16719-4194-41F9-9438-ECF07ECBB37A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 To save Glen finding the URL: https://www.ietf.org/status-report/ietf-progress-report.html = Jay > On 23/08/2021, at 4:01 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > Glen, do we have week-on-week statistics about ML traffic for each = IETF ML? >=20 > Why do I care: > a) identifying weeks that are bad for doing LCs > (it's clear August is a challenge, but how much) >=20 > b) I think that it might be interesting to know if a particular WG > is exploding. >=20 >=20 > We have discussed in manycouches, before it was SHMOO, about having a > per-sender leaky bucket rate limit in order to allow people in more = time > zones to keep up, and be able to meaningfully contribute. >=20 > I also pay attention to John Levine's weekly IETF@IETF summary. > (I pay attention to never being at the top of the list) >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_BFC16719-4194-41F9-9438-ECF07ECBB37A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
To save Glen finding the URL:

https://www.ietf.org/status-report/ietf-progress-report.html

Jay

On 23/08/2021, at 4:01 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Glen, do we have week-on-week statistics about ML traffic for = each IETF ML?

Why do I care:
=  a) identifying weeks that are bad for doing LCs
=     (it's clear August is a challenge, but how = much)

 b) I think that it might be = interesting to know if a particular WG
=     is exploding.


We have discussed in manycouches, before it was SHMOO, about = having a
per-sender leaky bucket rate limit in order to = allow people in more time
zones to keep up, and be able to = meaningfully contribute.

I also pay = attention to John Levine's weekly IETF@IETF summary.
(I = pay attention to never being at the top of the list)

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T= consulting )
=           Sandelman = Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide




___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for = discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* = Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other = bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including = how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive = Director
exec-director@ietf.org



= --Apple-Mail=_BFC16719-4194-41F9-9438-ECF07ECBB37A-- From nobody Sun Aug 22 15:41:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3112D3A08BE; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:41:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMrff7nrHv3O; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 421A13A08B7; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 15:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCF438A35; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 3UkT24zDDM6i; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FB338A32; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775BE69B; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 18:41:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: IETF Executive Director , Tools Discussion , manycouches@ietf.org, glen@amsl.com In-Reply-To: References: <21240.1629648097@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ML statistics X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 22:41:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IETF Executive Director wrote: > To save Glen finding the URL: > https://www.ietf.org/status-report/ietf-progress-report.html > Thank you. So I see per-month CSV files for total emails and total subscribers, per list. I could do a graph for a particular WG to see how it's doing. I'm not sure what questions I'm trying to answer, I was just pondering. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmEi0o0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWAxgf/e0+PAM8lD+wUpo7GQzek+KxNKaKULgsDGu5qOCeDfam9j+Uw5osRLZII KYA7+AJw0viGBRgRyFHVpT7GBUCiqE3HjWOMLGEKlAJOzKI7dkXmRrf/vF6r8neJ zcnDjIppbaQ19IxW9Imu77a5AjDmRzI+xi8Dr7p413CqbXvIaW4HGlcQGA84GWTf dxLFY3MvAeYiwciTgH2MWzq9FN7CwnHy2DGDxKCRCPw60+VuBi9/8m1WrAdDpGyP /YJjRYOh9RVaSuUnh5oDm3a7nU2EBLdRbBwsH3lO/0PIg9GXmzkL2xjjaUTtFZlj xa8NTOyK4IxZuFVjXCwp5wI6VjBwLA== =b0BL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Aug 22 19:10:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB183A0A01; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_WELCOMELIST=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hc8JfXDDp4Kl; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 364F03A09FE; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.amsl.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C983898BA; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Z301 (unknown [IPv6:2603:3024:1507:36a0:1d46:66d8:8f4e:6341]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8395038989D; Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Glen" To: "'Michael Richardson'" , "'IETF Executive Director'" , "'Tools Discussion'" , References: <21240.1629648097@localhost> <1149.1629672077@localhost> In-Reply-To: <1149.1629672077@localhost> Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2021 19:10:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01d797c4$11a10b30$34e32190$@amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQHiqC8VD6kRMaA/ymfNqNBd2NTGqgHnqFHUAiz5L8SrSZJ1sA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ML statistics X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 02:10:48 -0000 Thank you Michael for the email, and thank you Jay for saving me a = search! :-) =20 Good luck with your project! Glen > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Richardson > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 15:41 > To: IETF Executive Director ; Tools Discussion = discuss@ietf.org>; manycouches@ietf.org; glen@amsl.com > Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ML statistics >=20 >=20 > IETF Executive Director wrote: > > To save Glen finding the URL: >=20 > > https://www.ietf.org/status-report/ietf-progress-report.html > > >=20 > Thank you. > So I see per-month CSV files for total emails and total subscribers, = per > list. I could do a graph for a particular WG to see how it's doing. >=20 > I'm not sure what questions I'm trying to answer, I was just = pondering. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T = consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Aug 24 16:18:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7463A188E; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LwM9mIWlI4ma; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5A7D3A18A0; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id mw10-20020a17090b4d0a00b0017b59213831so2912334pjb.0; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=SHHxcVmICOGapFkUFjAyf3Mn8OCrBzw/+oK99CD9sZk=; b=UzEyZx6PbXDhieUGmiDDxERdlMNyzCt4dkS0nkwgyoBkE4fRKpN80Scfu/KwMPvq0z C8JeQKj2jaYaDkNB/snaj8Juo0AU2iIaTFYu3YDvI4iRr0N+fmgQYKhOq1nBojXOIptj hxHHsbWfHJqmowxQnxLGHVcTHpUkhgg3o6tfHE/H3PmqrDC6DUw+u2J/jRHBV7Do32P7 DzAIWZ+mxCUVgFMKrz0oCIxvRfNz5oQpa0v4WCNmhb77uQjiCHczYEddoKf/p4de7mJK Px5jSZpLZ+yT1xZy6eqWxRMrU/nEUpj3B9fj/+NXgQZmsEDnYjahRCLq8ru7j0aW03fC oDvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=SHHxcVmICOGapFkUFjAyf3Mn8OCrBzw/+oK99CD9sZk=; b=WEbLn6iDMHWDp1a7MpMmgNP1d+Kkp2rocZETIW4VYnxVUh8CRUdgG2QVf6/gZ9g02o HOshGNUaZF2xoyiu1q/APphp92fTc8CBaGYwGDfDNnYwWvErSlorDcz8WOhFG41sy+3I VukEwxHHYKuV0vxECTo/8/N/+z698P657CDkoQ3OgXfn7C4YXeVJHVlhucgQJkju+EnQ b7CYczUwiLmeKtaXrz0pbd4yIb7wDl0E6Ov0WwCD3qKo8BY32wTOKLh+bkHVDeYQ2Tnm Pq9JxdJlLMWrQUytJuofBMVsVcM8+bDhchRv2HUx3WTmZlw46giIf49wJwssJlpjk7hW j0Tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531d8/yCeVtzd3LyNZllTrN/OSXk+Gm5CjPxFN4Lcy19j0UfKOgy vjuFMoAplLLo9oSl4j2zIpxUOhPnVSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhB+1hVORTZl4LuTJjWA355k6VX1jkt8qmZgyKbB0hnQUjVHcNIlVZjYq1nlceJAKsX5GnOA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4681:: with SMTP id z1mr6786287pjf.131.1629847056614; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (ip184-187-180-127.sb.sd.cox.net. [184.187.180.127]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p9sm4297360pgn.36.2021.08.24.16.17.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker X-Google-Original-From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:17:35 -0700 Message-Id: <764A1E65-8C91-47AD-8E9F-3EE788E775AC@gmail.com> References: <21240.1629648097@localhost> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, manycouches@ietf.org, glen@amsl.com In-Reply-To: <21240.1629648097@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [Manycouches] ML statistics X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 23:17:55 -0000 I seriously doubt this exists. The first reason is historical; IETF mailing l= ists have only recently been centralized in a common service, so there is no= body (historically) who would have the required visibility. The second is th= at something like this would have to originate in a request of some kind, an= d to my knowledge it has not been requested. That=E2=80=99s not to say that such a request would be inappropriate. I woul= d suggest writing an internet draft formulating the request and arguing for i= t. Sent from my iPad > On Aug 22, 2021, at 9:02 AM, Michael Richardson wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Glen, do we have week-on-week statistics about ML traffic for each IETF ML= ? >=20 > Why do I care: > a) identifying weeks that are bad for doing LCs > (it's clear August is a challenge, but how much) >=20 > b) I think that it might be interesting to know if a particular WG > is exploding. >=20 >=20 > We have discussed in manycouches, before it was SHMOO, about having a > per-sender leaky bucket rate limit in order to allow people in more time > zones to keep up, and be able to meaningfully contribute. >=20 > I also pay attention to John Levine's weekly IETF@IETF summary. > (I pay attention to never being at the top of the list) >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consult= ing ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches From nobody Wed Aug 25 10:46:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427793A115E for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nmnxXuBkow4e for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC4DB3A1154 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 10:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:22:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1629915755; bh=th4Ue3zFDgtYtDohBYOL8YPvf0BcPBEESiNhu4xJ3fU=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=YE0bql35tV84SD6oAB0XYAwnKrWGeR08Fu5SNNyI/rmSWLk06YWsmLpSRclUmvhWf jK3m470VEjkA1B2oBZ8ejJzGA6TdiZ7C32Vuv0Um28/GJPh++iRBYN10qxh8LrIU7+ /T1RiVNg0ujtWGCtPhEwiNMQzTq7/HRgIxap2E8U= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: "Salz, Rich" , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <621A112F-2709-458A-A5CB-394FD10B2500@akamai.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <5984c004-dc30-7c44-f8ca-bce21c9472f4@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 13:22:29 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <621A112F-2709-458A-A5CB-394FD10B2500@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0A8810DFC0F08AD33340AB81" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] multiple formats of the same internet-draft submitted? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 18:22:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0A8810DFC0F08AD33340AB81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/25/21 12:46 PM, Salz, Rich wrote: > > I am reading https://github.com/ietf/id-guidelines=20 > carefully. > > What happens if a user submits multiple formats of the same document=20 > at the same time? > > If they submit XML, it appears the TXT version is ignored and=20 > overwritten. > No it doesn't. If both are submitted, both are kept. (See the=20 conditional at=20 https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/submit/forms.py#L256= ) > > What happens to the PDF and PS versions? > If they are provided, they are kept. If they are not provided, they are=20 not generated. (The pdf-ization at the datatracker is done on demand). > > What happens when a new version is submitted, do draft-xxxx-=E2=80=A6..= -01.*=20 > get removed? > From the Repository, yes, but not from the Archive. See https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/doc/expire.py#L1= 40 > If the subject just plaintext, I assume the PDF and PS are handled as=20 > above? > I assume you meant "If they submit just plaintext" of version N+1, then=20 yes, all formats of version N are removed from the repository (but not=20 the archive). > > If they submit just PDF and/or PS what happens? > The submission fails. At least one of xml or txt is required. > > Are both stored? > > Tnx. > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss --------------0A8810DFC0F08AD33340AB81 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 8/25/21 12:46 PM, Salz, Rich wrote:

I am reading https://github.com/ietf/id-guidelines carefully.

 

What happens if a user submits multiple formats of the same document at the same time?

 

If they submit XML, it appears the TXT version is ignored and overwritten.

No it doesn't. If both are submitted, both are kept. (See the conditional at https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/submit/forms.py#L256)

What happens to the PDF and PS versions?

If they are provided, they are kept. If they are not provided, they are not generated. (The pdf-ization at the datatracker is done on demand).

What happens when a new version is submitted, do draft-xxxx-…..-01.* get removed?

From the Repository, yes, but not from the Archive.

See https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietfdb/browser/trunk/ietf/doc/expire.py#L140

 

If the subject just plaintext, I assume the PDF and PS are handled as above?

I assume you meant "If they submit just plaintext" of version N+1, then yes, all formats of version N are removed from the repository (but not the archive).

 

If they submit just PDF and/or PS what happens? 

The submission fails. At least one of xml or txt is required.

Are both stored?

 

Tnx.


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Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:16:29 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1630026989; bh=OhONE2Vl6norpnnCB3VaFEmW3nHSGmJDIe3Kpn5wV50=; h=From:Subject:Date:To:From; b=Wv6eb6c3Y5edOZ6uJ7JmGu1yDM7RvZk5IiMB165ODdWuGcmnaj9N7e5yRVeNgpcKr cFgfpb0HN8351oTMdU0mQ+D+Z3LwfTUZDmThQunH7jbeHpjbDIg8rzNv3X4+Lyseud 1zvi6qIMWi1BzH2vC6iwNQ+fTPUlJzjI2TqsrfxRIA1C2otrQGP8v8G2lZ7jsu97vV UKdwNrLOlS/y+NTrw9bJAXH2wmuPAizubs7IDedBbE1c0opVtc+T9GJ8JcwrsaGSUi mEHmYWZ+rdQt2xncWEXf6484d6ZT0POfxI+TJsXURO/l/TDy7LCT7Kif/Pcvk7egzj bNc1+PFa5q+0g== From: Tom Pusateri Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2021 21:16:28 -0400 To: Tools Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 01:16:39 -0000 FYI, Given the change of position with Apple=E2=80=99s privacy directions, I = no longer wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple = platforms. After their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels = like a betrayal to me. I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want = inappropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not = the case. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the = internet. But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used = for services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made public but = they will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the line = in public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the = line in private too. But I don=E2=80=99t mean to drag anyone else into = this part of the discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is = not the point of this note. Please don=E2=80=99t try to argue with me = that what Apple is doing is ok. The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as = nothing in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over = that and I won=E2=80=99t go digging through the source code to try and = figure out what busted. I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online = meeting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the = next meeting. I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if = needed. This is the real purpose of this note. The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version = instead? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android = platforms are far worse. For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 = years ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people = benefited from it (and continue to do so). I=E2=80=99ll continue to hang = out on this list and contribute where I can but just not on the Apple = app. Thanks, Tom From nobody Fri Aug 27 06:06:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F8D93A14CF for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PbvAePH5ibzK for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 740193A14CA for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:05:58 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3anb81vchk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:05:58 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:05:57 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:05:57 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Tom Pusateri , Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app Thread-Index: AQHXmuE1IH245QVJs0urlGnYj/HmLKuHUsqA Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:05:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.52.21080801 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:06:10 -0000 VGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gYW5kIHllYXJzIG9mIGV4Y2VsbGVudCBzdXBwb3J0 Lg0KDQpJdCdzIGFuIG9wZW4gc291cmNlIHByb2plY3QsIEkgaG9wZSB5b3UgZG9uJ3QgZ2V0IGdy aWVmIGZvciBkZWNpZGluZyB0byBtb3ZlIG9uLCBidXQgSSdtIHN1cmUgd2UgYm90aCBrbm93IHRo YXQgd29uJ3QgaGFwcGVuLiAgU2lnaC4NCg0K From nobody Fri Aug 27 06:57:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AB33A1980 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:57:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq9F6bbAcg8B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe31.google.com (mail-vs1-xe31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C27FC3A1975 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe31.google.com with SMTP id a21so3560972vsp.12 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OK76UU2D5Gw9ZrkDRDU3a+3wBQIq3m/hxniRvKii7HY=; b=WP0+iIXCvvVSbZANx2Oh6LqiyJb+t91B9HFO2XaMRehesZWpU0U5LulTM99G3ej4JH bOfKwfraiQG3j71nv7TlYPQyBM0lx+evGvRYktrKQ0MxIC3gSzh2Hl5jsawWQkXy03G0 cZClDfmpWSVcD8DycaU2JoyO6jDqXkl7f1P2+OU1mVjdAo8CFYI+O2rW1a4KcgEJ7DFD BMdyACmViTucdNiM5a/iykUmTOXAhFJAz5m83+B45tIW7OTCtz7xgUNaYSJ08S2sexvh 5UK67AXajfIjTGJv/iW3qjAN2j3iI1MLsYwRAxOGx2RqbyYVekzfj7eNEL3xrmso6L7Y dpCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OK76UU2D5Gw9ZrkDRDU3a+3wBQIq3m/hxniRvKii7HY=; b=oEQD1OZ70ALdCQyfcBAnCRCipVmwi2F1h+vIcqdhzDV0dCH2VQ6l5JHN2ce/tlQv5f gqCOvEYQ/f1xtUMWok5d8oU39xT9wGSbREpEf5NtnKr7Z3qIMRvmtm4Hi2uzw2ylP9dO 1Vr2oAHRgfcJqWgbl5+uYjk5hiBYOV96cYrxsncy/gXEndom4KOi6vFMd8hvg28JrdeN vEkF9q2VWULakgFOlF1MeNsDkn+eomI2U+d469Z8OFOHtgdz4npkgc7bVjl+35CkKHUX f0u3xz0KHg3XRdQm1Hnfa4Xr/JUMRxOm5QvtmK4VfqbQ3ZdYPH19pZ2oJXBwcDvD08Mr X+0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533SII5rlF4VNiO+RpEoRVitz9UA6Ik6sJuLKDwh34jnkqB/BmbE xi95mpgyB3bS7zKqVStA+D9aRvfmjic6V3gYLm/9Fc10Cw8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyb65FSU+OiQZlfZ0bZI8iy3itfWooQz6CUvDrwDOV46CGoFXoB+ys1/ph0a/k6qbvK2cYlV6tm7GwyXYXlsIE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:42c2:: with SMTP id p185mr7225011vsa.41.1630072651859; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:56:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Tom Pusateri , Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005f5db705ca8add03" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:57:42 -0000 --0000000000005f5db705ca8add03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:06 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > Thanks for the application and years of excellent support. > Indeed. IETFers is one of the few apps which lives on the first page of apps on my phone, and I use it to build and populate my IETF meetings calendar, figure out where the hell I'm supposed to be during the meeting, etc. Thank you for having created it, and improved it over the many years, W > > It's an open source project, I hope you don't get grief for deciding to > move on, but I'm sure we both know that won't happen. Sigh. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra --0000000000005f5db705ca8add03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:06 AM Salz,= Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Thanks for the application and years of excellent support.=

Indeed. IETFers=C2=A0is one of the few= apps which lives on the first page of apps on my phone, and I use it to bu= ild and populate my IETF meetings calendar, figure out where the hell I'= ;m supposed to be during the meeting, etc.

Thank y= ou for having created it, and improved it over the many years,
W<= /div>
=C2=A0

It's an open source project, I hope you don't get grief for decidin= g to move on, but I'm sure we both know that won't happen.=C2=A0 Si= gh.

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


--
The computing scientist=E2=80= =99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow= n making.
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
--0000000000005f5db705ca8add03-- From nobody Fri Aug 27 07:54:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA083A08E9; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:53:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKAKFt8pi9x9; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B93633A08B3; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 07:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BD73548049; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:53:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 731BC4400EF; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:53:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:53:39 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: Tom Pusateri Cc: Tools Discussion , ietf-privacy@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210827145339.GS50345@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:54:05 -0000 *, Cc'ed to ietf-privacy@ietf.org in case there is interest in followup discussions on the privacy issue raised. Surprisingly, that mailing list is almosts dead, which strikes me as strange given IETFs strong interest in privacy. Given how i do not use iOS, i was more triggered by the remark about android and be interested to learn more about that. Otherwise, also a big thank from me knowing how many IETF'er use the app! To close on a lighter note: I was yesterday just randomnly stumbling across RFC4101 again and found particularily section 2.2 to be strikingly current. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 09:16:28PM -0400, Tom Pusateri wrote: > FYI, > > Given the change of position with Apple’s privacy directions, I no longer wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple platforms. After their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels like a betrayal to me. > > I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want inappropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not the case. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the internet. > > But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used for services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made public but they will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the line in public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the line in private too. But I don’t mean to drag anyone else into this part of the discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is not the point of this note. Please don’t try to argue with me that what Apple is doing is ok. > > The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as nothing in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over that and I won’t go digging through the source code to try and figure out what busted. > > I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online meeting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the next meeting. > > I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if needed. This is the real purpose of this note. > > The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version instead? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android platforms are far worse. > > For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 years ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people benefited from it (and continue to do so). I’ll continue to hang out on this list and contribute where I can but just not on the Apple app. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss -- --- tte@cs.fau.de From nobody Fri Aug 27 14:56:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 004D13A1B8D for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:56:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 837d2R2UYBRg for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 701233A1B89 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 14:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17RLuOUT028470 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:56:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630101385; bh=l8AbwcgbUTg1h87gMLGnqKmNaFWoHPNFhOHEqhAAMik=; h=To:From:Subject:Date; b=J1XZmQVH47D9UdcBd4aaZ6c/aIGmlLMfnvRCBT+xjnesBkYjxpy44fL3iHHMVt98h 7WZH/Cu/mSfJYjTX6Rq6Gzv4qC1u5aCzss9z1u3UHAW8v1bgYzonuW6JQpS34PHB2D C46UMY7707Vyj9X4XqCK9uFgrv8mZPJRKZccHI4k= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 16:56:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:56:33 -0000 All - We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff=20 services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there=20 are robots that don't honor the requests. These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing=20 something else. We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to=20 require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something=20 that would break, please say so. RjS From nobody Fri Aug 27 15:22:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F371A3A1C4A for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ja-fVjxivsO4 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3748A3A1C48 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id w6so4800552plg.9 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aWgsCGqw6rkHjZKYPk/DC4+lOC1V2n9tuTg+OJpISGw=; b=l0nN+tT1wAxTluHmTHBNsI4ONQGuWxMWYSdmylet32NHS/bvLk5iojaTRmyTPvsgCy 93bhr337X04DbZJhThBZ+65V1H+YsGcToV61MowFtNBrYHyj2q4K5j5xzw4bU54SUpZX 2Y6+hI/C3vZo6cPzBVJGESgDFvjWp4cn1pou1FN7h97MPA/M7VokNopxlq20CW/YV+W0 r10CKYLnC4twVQUN+PD/hq2D/g/pfpsm2JweFtP0ddZWc2S01kZC3q2vBMirQuK3jEkm +7n2PWu8RUN4z2i/9/pDAmnErj/RDwfFKdZKGTAr5uBtuQYsVq6r3vwz6CqN7Nqo0abI YYHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aWgsCGqw6rkHjZKYPk/DC4+lOC1V2n9tuTg+OJpISGw=; b=OAOXKzmXg5PRhH7SaUUDwPZFd9E9f8Q0TFDm4dLwE79pZm5ASo4T3rTZcdm188YJJV oelaKb3wespcqfH5DUwlIijmz+C3tsuo8hcaRvik0rXun3oDY0e42WmHOjHE3mx3Wrve 3IjzyHi95h/JmXYWQKkiCAp23nG36SEgXxwWPUyvRaSqvI1jiOpBQwvQWObyRZ9QPkbu Hl08ZaOB0qXHp14xdxIHaiWcdgQJEK+MKQwa6PYW0RGqTAGfXMtlqq5cYbW7XLZzUvMr d60krUMtM4HFLNyNcXaiMSpzB3vR6VUe+ZzW1+SYah9KvZs2yIa9iSR8EH/VwTulB57Z L6cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530RpwxzkBzOqS5Y7uNtarjlUmrU/ZDcTgyMKffj+wIhek3wsKbS 8GO/SlPxC2ii3skQksAx5504lsSR9pOjNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCWb7MbIQUlEGtUuKvAhsaKRPURDHj5phL90bWLudKqjzU+5z7X2St/IGbJu40ZEsfh3QPeA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3583:: with SMTP id mm3mr13330253pjb.75.1630102968339; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:11d3:cf01:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c15sm7123313pfl.181.2021.08.27.15.22.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 15:22:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:22:43 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:22:55 -0000 > The first is to > require login with datatracker credentials. No problem, as long as you add a login button to them. Regards Brian On 28-Aug-21 09:56, Robert Sparks wrote: > All - > > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff > services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there > are robots that don't honor the requests. > > These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing > something else. > > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to > require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something > that would break, please say so. > > RjS > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Fri Aug 27 21:05:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77893A2AD6 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xr3unVg39_qQ for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 716C23A2AD4 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id m25-20020a7bcb99000000b002e751bcb5dbso5573009wmi.5 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=9l8DCUXyZNeZO/1zMNrij5bLNdqd7cTnZ2z407MDzCQ=; b=hy4PaDyyILG5gAoBw8VFgQOQULAk8XAOT7c1H6UMvGuCIaMfLvXhr+urocJnVksBmw 85heJevwInjF8xXw9UA7Fdc92R6by+F3O5f2wrSgSJaoQYAshE1a/p+jH6rAftOer0sS P1PMNWe4hG+DDDN5EDFs92WnBvcmYQqlWqZclb2OBtn5w2VopHS0ESyzXr7oMkIVaDO+ uDlply6G+8szZ8iGNQiT7NjbmiYyRfc2H7vk1GAPwwB6aYtBct9xteDjNf3JpbCqp0mg nbMcM3qdIMhPVmf01KOR5vxehFhq9QR0+w6rpOiyjTPyUIoK9jkPOgGt8EKHnmtIVHzY QODA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=9l8DCUXyZNeZO/1zMNrij5bLNdqd7cTnZ2z407MDzCQ=; b=OjAApzzj85CUijzpZtAXmsk1g6cSz5F1sTanGs/OoS6zw2QssbAofn52wdDCkGn+Cu McJFhlYMCtNzHW5DpvDRB37aBCpABdwBQvGK4sZf6MD2fOfJJnLM0Sz5YVVzyuUBtwUb Du505aHD7zmuXATcrXXLHh51m2UL/V7g09M9jd6U+9Bp1H7SZAqm7EQ1oi3/WYEwqvdS aB2qXFKhsdXK/JwrEvOVfMwggJCPX+Ifh5lyAoE5qH6N6sqvYQj8J9leUiWrSU/J9kqF nzLs7PPSOkNoD6SGUMCgH1J83EnN8vCouVocJ8td2B9wUYuejt2x+/DHjEG8y/TUOxon 7Wfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318g71uFr2tcexcJy9TFBI2C9t6BwqAc6nTvfj1A3D78uF1Xtlp QeamXKnZ+iylP2TGBCFMoPY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9Y5UV4PlVs9PWG/ebSvu9EbuoW4Zr7VmfUF68YRT5+a00EIBLYZuS+JlIL/MrVMCJWk7mMg== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cb8c:: with SMTP id m12mr22527296wmi.77.1630123502114; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.138.216] ([12.207.193.226]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q17sm8206054wrr.91.2021.08.27.21.05.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:05:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <64B0386F-0D0E-4FB7-A2BF-B28D952922AD@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4A87EE82-56D7-4B1D-AE4D-0D7F53485C24"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:04:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss To: Robert Sparks References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 04:05:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4A87EE82-56D7-4B1D-AE4D-0D7F53485C24 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Robert, > On Aug 27, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Robert Sparks = wrote: >=20 > All - >=20 > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff = services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there = are robots that don't honor the requests. >=20 > These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing = something else. >=20 > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to = require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something = that would break, please say so. I think requiring datatracker login would be fine. Bob --Apple-Mail=_4A87EE82-56D7-4B1D-AE4D-0D7F53485C24 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmEptekACgkQrut0EXfn u6ixGQgAiHi53z7pDbJcEh4QpQcwSwf25lWoIuqsU7s2gVHIsdnB0Mfoh6hYArbm XNPO0p2xYg2+kjsuygQKTZTN92AwFTjhreyac3wwhE4cQbvuuuk9acg2ffPvG5Vo 1aadJvRmhx2HwgEpvpD9sddISPvq9ibxoST1ZC3RtNTmPfQFkit8CDvj7ThVqcCF cQ0s0vnhuJDlxbjlZhh1ZR0jmf/3PGdIoDDke9uWchi3zTxNX26sNX77o5ThK9i1 i+HJD3+74AHHXjYqh9L7JWPEuMo1bh0DaVNJ13fVvohxm5EfbUMYuLRkNDWU+crJ 04KUym5VPCM+gPUE7fuB16VSIW6EWQ== =6hfy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4A87EE82-56D7-4B1D-AE4D-0D7F53485C24-- From nobody Fri Aug 27 21:10:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F073A2B07 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FT4a56MZ8NBo for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1723A2B05 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:10:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1630123837; bh=m1jJEf2E8zacZ2wFXsFppx3Jfhck+n8nH277vGn0u1o=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=C4GNpKDKCNiqhn0M1t/Gzn3BjjTPkk1s0C6mXaT14PRdNzXWXjupIelrJd+ALJ/TY QHpO1ZAGuA0Uptz9SfydKCx/YFoKVCmjbtFvBpGo//3gGQi+iWTonf9IzEBS1IMnMl +MW9+BkBfcrTHabpbNL2iCP3eotVGX3EoGyPoVjs= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MiJVG-1myv3C3YPO-00fVrj for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:10:36 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:10:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:bWPr+jkpUgOK2kV1hibF/XW7MDTEx7McEqzGAPh9FTHxC3ZdQzQ XcPcQlzQAK6l4Nlqn+NpufIsMG3HL/P9Bk3YFjejJE9HwcHbWwNus2ft9vwH9RaggbFyOd+ M5p6Fa/pKVQYvlLws8RPldQO1IUFKcVburnEUrpIdBDZQVevlElF8lybUUDJHnrLCWPRyb8 auqtHXDDGNl9+X14ME3cg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:fPiw2e5S8as=:9PISjZAAwxXdDAxUdXohN0 tr50gidjjcuNm8/7r9YajJ3PRgUhyUD0lQYBrI7qksp9A5z0lA9lUra+cNxJRGv3cQM5CifAc Kkhkw8fKNX/o+M6P4NrijR8ocQRcXIuw4jbUuWHkAqRi44wMDaSFpJ1KVvLYod1Nsr1CeWEym d2ZylUCNulz6YnwiXTbG+APvii0ltxO87DJ2EE/PwTG57J4eIEdvfPyWwVL2ZOQcuyuTPjVje gG8TjkQIAFtWVycFaiNxQEgjktAHue23xhVfxtKDBiTWB2IMlo+/1d+Q7YL+rIQ5MSWfpsz71 Wr2YIbmBCMkdumCzU264rJ97vGGnWFRxa3+NUFfuB+SwOOLx5hOJ1WGdwMSrChWSEP4duzHXZ AoNzW5sClQp3qQWojEfVHOwjJjczNCRCOlrgQrbuNNZ1rVPxJhv4PrqIax3lO/1mYJU/oI3Kf QOPpCa3Ohd7aj1u11418wDWz0lrBMdYbCrnzaiOkCx4fhDFcz5M7U7TRzo5hW4rBqHIpai4vQ cqKLHyLcUrSrGpMArkVcqPLNS1U3/9CVh2bnRMjZk3zshIpMhB1AugWVawH4jniURN30vzKfc Tl5SPWskldraynWus8eKaK8dQuY1Bpv4qgzq6a3/6ZcN3OwN7iInEVGpfCxLd1F4bm2WJTo4a OD7MG34TBZ5rqpwZSZwdvrXO7nnAAkU9ihqOlCOQnnNQjYVQ1eH8ocx5P2Pz9UfHi2nVZFm9C PysPmsB8UFJqNfVFlis/jO4XY4nzeqgvmR81zKB94+Fi8y+87Lz8Fd/9iIvlCdymXF1QwCoT7 2iaemPh1qKd9WGoWIRMBrxo6+CxRe5BnVF1cszzTysfizaHk3QEA0g0KkRDnjSeopv1A3ehDt N9zJY6S2YiEFAOYbllUGI2SS9MQLsC8P1YoEX7/RwlB3g7pj60LiL0BXwKBgamQ4lixDZukf+ kw4vlG21aEbHp0urFOtRGYoP6GSsWPR3VxgkHY6GEcs4MleRUjuZHeJqnkkDXRhofMJDNvO8o EGZgnDlfSo111SLFnlMRn76W9dq0mdky5LgfqbAy2QiAd8bh6Z1jfsZW7PHR+yQZlSArGwm+N l4uwaMsJ8SahBucYZk3kXUyiutrmm4u33m/1KVpPfWtu+JsDG/mzkq2RQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 04:10:47 -0000 Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: > All - > > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff > services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there > are robots that don't honor the requests. > > These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing > something else. > > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to > require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something > that would break, please say so. > ... Hm. This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true. Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Aug 27 21:58:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957BB3A081B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:58:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iQ2W5ZFWNlFv; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49E3A3A0818; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 21:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A3B72D5D-1880-4DF0-AB73-75251F7D4B98 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 16:58:39 +1200 Message-Id: <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 04:58:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail-A3B72D5D-1880-4DF0-AB73-75251F7D4B98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28/08/2021, at 4:10 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAm 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: >> All - >>=20 >> We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff >> services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there >> are robots that don't honor the requests. >>=20 >> These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing >> something else. >>=20 >> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to >> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something >> that would break, please say so. >> ... >=20 > Hm. >=20 > This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to > diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true. >=20 It sounds as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has been created ther= e is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a pe= riod, by a public URL - is that correct? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director > Best regards, Julian >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --Apple-Mail-A3B72D5D-1880-4DF0-AB73-75251F7D4B98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 28/08/2021, at 4:10 PM, Julian Resch= ke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

= =EF=BB=BFAm 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks:
All -

We curre= ntly let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff
services. We ask robots not to, using th= e usual mechanisms, but there
are robots that don't honor the requests.

These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing<= /span>
something else.

We are considering mechanisms to help shed tha= t load. The first is to
require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something
that would break, please s= ay so.
...
=

Hm.

Thi= s seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link todiffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true= .


It sound= s as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has been created there is a u= se case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a period, by= a public URL - is that correct?

Jay

=
-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director

Best regards, Julian
<= /span>
___________________________________________________________<= /span>
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.orgThis list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.=
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-p= roject@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@t= ools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-act= ion@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

= --Apple-Mail-A3B72D5D-1880-4DF0-AB73-75251F7D4B98-- From nobody Fri Aug 27 22:57:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396883A0B0C for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lsyIMfLshrdf for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D6703A0B09 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 22:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:cab:2b3a:2eb5:e21a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1561600371; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:56:54 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1630130215; bh=r8M3gzvp9JJSbBMNG3QxVHn4roFZZLw3r6ju2qA0YZY=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=cumr087Qturm2BLGoGGgLebTtH/nRCVSMhebQWM0LWgxFr+oRlpO1JZKHQiFHtvhB Qe1qqxNQwp8lW97QPeVIJaHjFlPGyzFBoqpCUx6CIyrAAhUkm9hjFdEZ4eYFUT5aC9 L60D9vjYDj0ROX9/35SlKLEgDBTqsHWlrOFQyRMo= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:56:52 +0300 Message-Id: References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-MailScanner-ID: E1561600371.AD86B X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:57:29 -0000 Can they be fronted by Cloudflare? Or all these all unique requests? --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Aug 28, 2021, at 00:56, Robert Sparks wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFAll - >=20 > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff services.= We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there are robots that= don't honor the requests. >=20 > These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing somethin= g else. >=20 > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to requ= ire login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something that would b= reak, please say so. >=20 > RjS >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sat Aug 28 00:49:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2263A1331 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7goXOjmHNkbv for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 74F823A132D for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:48:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1630136935; bh=+E+EPZfQcsNRC3layCsh51p3w5x0rgCColb96HARsNM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=F/HL1uuX3ul9nHyxNSBb0vPqShIrtFX9LRL8jq+4nKYA/WKMa+Gty35kDe+SbHI92 tcJLVMb3iCuJ8w9oEWSC4gDEJ3DC1+jLZqML0MdKyKXXQb0u1FEufS4K38LFoXQxcN pzGiw18e7U+dNs+vT6qu59HZQb+BL+f35XtAcfXc= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MhU5b-1mxdga3EIN-00eZNq for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:48:55 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:48:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:r+oJsJjgm7/KZir5mz630HlnEbJfe3RbsFJpObvMW17xECB3fmY 0UHUbFODU8ZxuJ8zZo9xqO/P3TuFTJGm3MPQqPOdjI9XeKJt4uRFYTHIvYJfeWUttvjBEu1 km5vao98OQDO80PRY+gkpeeAvOIjtGywMOdQm6SWEkW3rixkjPzb9PA1gRoz1DdJK4rHOPH puNUS38v76bMc0Lt0hx/A== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:6en6fDRE/Y4=:ZZMQvM2/4KZXCV+xMwCMZY COjpnFAov9BXwXOU4bsumSG5qmSM7Xk9HYCfFdBpVEQsp4WswvmRjEbSlUzFroIyI3wx9NjkZ KXy3x008Rj/aC5UlQljT9CqB0XLZsMq0Pbb2/MEfmZZY04NORn0vfKe6PQ4NwUKxi7PzOVutj oo3+yG6XbzRJFVZ1pcB+khdrywSiSIl7rvRXVi00AvDTeyDCkrpdWpVLPWD/ILVywewDsWKf7 juxfLL2P031T4pGbqxBS8YEjokfCCfiSG4Kp7nBqLbXHtlki/21JmsKwh5DwVppRxyyBmHjDt kSSVCzL3aqDE63rdc9lZM9oNNNQ5028b4fGjVrO+1ZwFUbw4I2Nsm0y7BmdEXqo9NkcgiogRH FrH2wANig9JtL9/UsDu1WoDFA0pJFJ0Jr4hX1iEqy6rZKm4Xj/0hedjMvbYJNUv41mU6F8hoW jymxPpq3BhGeev+KVaZMrH9WXzJrgbdhKi7z0IHsaT6psF9WcD6t+gkLL0GnzFRqJUOuJZsso LBYw4SIci0B0Puc77+XBRYAMEQF1Nq4Yi4QK39B4+7qimiMI0NhS/my/33ZjG4o6PHlEUkEbS PWfN1QEG9I/YdiOeaH4bBrVrEz9jzxHoI7JQLUUHAVuAx54+G8DnqoUo3wSbjKaFprih/ahpE l2O4mudWuwdlrrT6wXeBjTRJgKWy1XYjhYPIdQlR7XXAb+I3dpNlZkGNozk1JD/PYOCFZKxkc U8bH1iw/TAQx1uf9Q9uaOlRs3aLpKzHaANgW2V7L87EfvVfWhLlgYYIxuQOmMiogpHHA/KktR dolUhwKGnbsyKG9RXiworWS7rQi+cIxCGrJTG8AlRTb+kgvRDIl2dtCjRwGuWHjbQMIzATb/n rB7P3cnY00ganzsr2EmjbOf/oqEVzv8VO2X9+t9ECoNG7oQuDEMmiZAVsj4vNNBEgvpUtL12E pJ17Ae1c3K5nbjT/JhW4l2mQcRS0h3nMwCkPnv9e8xA/+qOv4cUWc691AYDbDOykmIhz6mpNn 43I/BKWRVtXgMts2CJkaJ3lIkd+wfIGuWIInsuzFVLRc0S/KXeGaPz9ZSsLA7R2ll7Vn/DFTu OsWEM/fxLtlmLVKRqjUUign/qbPhJdTxkyhN3JID3yqlcQvglhBkwUczw== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 07:49:05 -0000 Am 28.08.2021 um 06:58 schrieb Jay Daley: > > On 28/08/2021, at 4:10 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFAm 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: >>> All - >>> >>> We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff >>> services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there >>> are robots that don't honor the requests. >>> >>> These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing >>> something else. >>> >>> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to >>> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something >>> that would break, please say so. >>> ... >> >> Hm. >> >> This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to >> diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true. >> > > It sounds as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has been created = there is > a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a > period, by a public URL - is that correct? > ... Absolutely. Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Aug 28 01:12:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2863A140A for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNSE6eh7-ZgN for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1540F3A1408 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p548dcf6e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.207.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GxTp93CP0z2xJd; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:12:17 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:12:16 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:12:29 -0000 On 27. Aug 2021, at 23:56, Robert Sparks wrote: > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff = services. [=E2=80=A6] >=20 > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to = require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something = that would break, please say so. The kdrfc tool in kramdown-rfc offers remote web invocation of xml2rfc, = not yet idnits or rfcdiff, for the case that no local installation of = xml2rfc can be found. Remote invocation of idnits is a logical fallback to add, as this also = needs to be =E2=80=9Cinstalled=E2=80=9D (made available to kdrfc). With your proposed change, this then would need the addition of a login = function to kdrfc. A login function however also on the roadmap for adding a command line = I-D submission feature for kdrfc. So nothing would break right now, but the next steps for what can be = added to kdrfc would change. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Aug 28 01:54:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB4B3A15B6 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BvhOiSO1n8Pq for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 526393A15B3 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 01:54:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1630140861; bh=StVXzh77VjOu5wlHMSglSJMgOB6BdRG8FsENvTChBOw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NaS3ZqnVQlBApPj0/55+nKVSsRBuY9R97YKCLEb2XwIo4klUYImXzA8uMO/zPQ7a8 VYEEv3tiQD8RgSJe6Xu1YJ7gNoyJkNvLGJOoIF1gd+Ljssv05Fn1iJ3k2Y6B63sdA2 7wSAzwwO3eG5jdfzemx8ZLf3vaCgtda9QI+wqoK4= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.52.137]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mk0JM-1mhvAz0lnE-00kQgK for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:54:21 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <6aefbc18-176e-b482-ba38-26745c7196f4@gmx.de> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 10:54:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:pHqog6gLnyYiUW0AsjpRU91mkjt+HSlszm2OG+RK7JMrAt7F+iB WiNvgdzbUHvSmW/PJ3uIfVKoF+cWvrcUS5RJQeZ2BP8zwqO2YKCFx1YgOiQJn0cGngNG72q PvuZ+LjZgWuOyEefI0ud4DI8NBoRBp8tt88xaeuRuho5MLTmgu+ORxFpHz6dtw2F9lnwxIb ckamUqFa4FjA2G5+qm/xA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tuKRloYRNbM=:Hctck2BFOnyViwVeR0WjEH 95UaQ5aMcQ6R2ckX/2ZOPu4nMEPN2HBgELqNTrJgDV1D+cV7vBdqXwvLsO57A/92jaPaJ0cXN z7ctVFMTLdRDd5mw1PE4KiunjpNnCoaxSUtXawjpCItbvO3K3Wv4MPSgYt0+Y5IBAPXOCgSHk VPguWCvhSWJjS+EkgGa0EG6gHaZfGyp3VOSYryN0HilShjaofir8w8zEd3HvYK6wL/KWjkCDE DDDcz6uPmeCXGJ8+H8jzOUgFQHiIO80FMshUexKpP2MbNZ6rSqYQLgey3b+Ss6a/LVxpin1kq JsuZ8+Ma7C+KJ2srkf6L9SUJSg78/6rR0bReiwFFZxoBjM77H28hAvA/gWIp2Rj41prJ7Jqhg Zz85aiLcKgxkVCQk7gfZjqCMPLRRwb3ilxepHcWtL7IIwXBKZnPlsY60c8VTp0A4o+m5bsYoX OBxSOWZnacCEM0JbeBEuOFJv+8wXIvxc5q93MmZdEpxz4pEOP/QlJf/5meJTHznQuEzZrI+Ir cw+FL6fdBTF+w0T3AmOjiPvitNV4HaXd4HjGO0ToYZPl+WR05CqQKBzoG7bpE7ooPEgUJP1Vu 9xfCGSscgWqOcgL/HOlioL9S6cd1mAMrXPkDKENJQSr9CvUKAqi/5lD5hZSlNWYSBhivW2CNT ZlyGHUqJ4IjsQpJS1NSlEtWZYHy5sJM5kA9Blk3T8xj4gYpmPV+WRzvzb+ljVGvtjcWgE4V07 9suIDXZ9m0a5HrL45FkRz/N9keqtXE0dMvpu4lIlwFhxrFPaKE+v2bHOvlzILsv7uR/pr9psr PFH4qlIdvXsYA2s8IO8aPVf3posQrLt/P43H58A1b4ireV8/ZD/9eTsJMRLkZVr9883yyCZ6J SIMs37oAevHf1jlJLhlH58qwTF5epyLFJdCealzetz/jT02M1VBGronkzsUfHDZehR3nIpWIz PUECJ7IWF4aPPUiXaX+5AHOiYwmIQFHDbKIa9iUxC9PhJ/35cR0Wb9GkbDAxcXt50DC+zL76U T0c69J/0ky7crYSNArUTOW61RtFBPnaId6rO8QHsAdoqnO/aamcgwRwbARp7WYuLzFp84GVoU /FT9ujwVpznhT12XK4EEtT1Qzhip1qXh+YLTm4ssyxYbD+ziJQKw/ZoDQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:54:31 -0000 Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: > All - > > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff > services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there > are robots that don't honor the requests. > ... Out of curiosity: are these robots accessing *existing* diffs (that have been requested before), or are they creating new diffs? How do you know that those are robots? Keep in mind that draft announcements contain links to diffs, so the first client following these will invoke "rfcdiff", no? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sat Aug 28 05:32:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1ABA3A0822 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kyvtilm0IQbc for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E33793A0821 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id v16so10135950ilo.10 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:32:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fG7jHTPUXcZaWVT2Dustl9QGHZt+PLMDMAs/qkhgRzM=; b=gBtuANGtITzG3TsguiKHKv/IofGoZJzIPuYfBLoUD1S8WSbYOxwodB6CRLhZ9lh+G3 9oi64eUp4rVRmoNKmUtN7TUBBFUt6kGuU73NRBVK1zUkmAeJrlwWB1xL+f4hBhI9BNli kmi68PkzeGiDL2PfEB6cyVre9MV6QesK7ZD3e51vXUYvam5IcAzVM8E4rjhSRNDkxbDQ 1Hx8+jow8F15z7IdPirQh/gIIL1B54dAUfCc+YYi/lKTid/8njjX1vBbzRv/AjoFtwZj 0G4idaeWGojEGszNv2IUBXHfzfIq7SH+J3p/27Pgzo/OxilfZQh53wWBWsP9CnPif9fd cMOQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fG7jHTPUXcZaWVT2Dustl9QGHZt+PLMDMAs/qkhgRzM=; b=B8Ul8VdHWXAYzxpXKecnR07CtH1kg8h2ilP8gG6ruCEAWu5b2eWHUuLGrRY0oruJRR 4vCCHQnxgwaOIGxzqzm9HmlswA3y/blyrG7xnBWvZ+4bTAJQnVwjhjUDY0UQh5H7LEdO 87pUOTC3IMsysjFHSey9IEIjaXLCHi970YLRKvwJV6v3N92XA0NlHUO5hKoU2SZxBUYa luqP1NdH4XgcGakSwNLCifQDE0KLApuySeW67l4RWlfT6PCS5qgBpI1oBlmyWUhucsDR uIyb592bewDyJ4Y2IiYF1f/nJafXe4MvXsYhdwu+uHHEIcY76akBu5TPz074ZeKNEzls u7sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530NTcyaBJ+GKuyDRqKXJ0R3R6q9JOtme9POkaFTd475h+AZ1cpM o2K4uZDMBFKsZu+w//FwfxcjhukTFydtigpkKOjq6bT6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNEEFzNTaFnt5XBfrtI9+a7iFThVoMyxQvmMPll01Qr+O5HsmAFQcoedxqy2pVVOY0IkPGgWnTPjYc9bcLuf8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:503:: with SMTP id d3mr9820986ils.107.1630153931600; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:32:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:31:55 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tom Pusateri Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005b73205ca9dcaae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Upcoming end of support for the IETFers app X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 12:32:20 -0000 --00000000000005b73205ca9dcaae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom, As one of your early adopters, thanks for the app and the years of often thankless support, it's greatly appreciated! Cheers, Andy On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:16 PM Tom Pusateri wrote: > FYI, > > Given the change of position with Apple=E2=80=99s privacy directions, I n= o longer > wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple platforms. After > their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels like a betrayal to > me. > > I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want > inappropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not th= e > case. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the internet. > > But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used > for services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made public but the= y > will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the line in > public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the line i= n > private too. But I don=E2=80=99t mean to drag anyone else into this part = of the > discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is not the point of > this note. Please don=E2=80=99t try to argue with me that what Apple is d= oing is ok. > > The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as > nothing in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over th= at > and I won=E2=80=99t go digging through the source code to try and figure = out what > busted. > > I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online > meeting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the > next meeting. > > I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if > needed. This is the real purpose of this note. > > The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version > instead? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android > platforms are far worse. > > For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 year= s > ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people benefited from = it > (and continue to do so). I=E2=80=99ll continue to hang out on this list a= nd > contribute where I can but just not on the Apple app. > > Thanks, > Tom > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --00000000000005b73205ca9dcaae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom,

As one of your early adopters, tha= nks for the app and the years of often thankless support, it's greatly = appreciated!

Cheers,
Andy

=


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:16 PM Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
FYI,

Given the change of position with Apple=E2=80=99s privacy directions, I no = longer wish to continue development of the IETFers app on Apple platforms. = After their strong privacy stance for many years, this feels like a betraya= l to me.

I understand that some will think this is overblown or that maybe I want in= appropriate material on my device. I can assure you that this is not the ca= se. I detest the exploitation of minors and adults on the internet.

But a technology that is developed for service A will eventually be used fo= r services B & C & D. Services B & C & D may not be made pu= blic but they will exist and Apple has shown their willingness to cross the= line in public which makes me think they probably have already crossed the= line in private too. But I don=E2=80=99t mean to drag anyone else into thi= s part of the discussion or convince anyone about my beliefs. That is not t= he point of this note. Please don=E2=80=99t try to argue with me that what = Apple is doing is ok.

The IETFers app will continue to work for future meetings as long as nothin= g in the API changes on which it depends. I have no control over that and I= won=E2=80=99t go digging through the source code to try and figure out wha= t busted.

I am aware of another timezone bug that surfaced during this last online me= eting. I plan to fix this bug and make one last dot release before the next= meeting.

I wanted to make this decision public so other plans can be made if needed.= This is the real purpose of this note.

The next obvious question is will I be working on an Android version instea= d? I will answer this by saying the privacy problems on Android platforms a= re far worse.

For a stroll down memory lane, the IETFers app was first released 10 years = ago in July, 2011. It was a fun project and I hope people benefited from it= (and continue to do so). I=E2=80=99ll continue to hang out on this list an= d contribute where I can but just not on the Apple app.

Thanks,
Tom



___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--00000000000005b73205ca9dcaae-- From nobody Sat Aug 28 06:29:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AA33A1052 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:29:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 74TLNOk-XisB for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C6703A104F for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17SDTUsX074223 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:29:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630157371; bh=khthpwBB83ex/wM8jKlRHKZLOI2D4gxdaNBgq5DNd1w=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=tF4qOhqm+7ocAm/cO1g1tMzzyIxy4wrLUQrhp1Bcd8j57GWB/7I3Z9rpmvv1SW5t8 SFF5GX0feBHhEWN8UfmQlr6B2AMAwJ9P9OeKX7EPy4cSfBhywGO9squRbjE1P90BKU 10rU6RIBuml60dCcKVPPcTIOFZSc4kF6+jBjsgQQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Lars Eggert Cc: tools-discuss References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:29:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:29:46 -0000 On 8/28/21 12:56 AM, Lars Eggert wrote: > Can they be fronted by Cloudflare? Or all these all unique requests? They are too unique. Quite often they involve upload (idnits in particular) of different files with the same name. For the ones that don't, they quite often identify a draft without a version (rfcdiff in particular) and ask the tool to figure out source to use. A constant cache timeout would be a real inconvenience for users when they publish a new version, and invalidation, while possible, would require some complicated coordination with the datatracker. From nobody Sat Aug 28 06:33:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236583A10C7 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:33:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjiH2zokwO6A for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CD1E3A10C3 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17SDX6Wx079404 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:33:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630157586; bh=Igmv1eWa1QrqXZ1augxtvnTODMrGHXnj2knqx31oUlg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=s3q0snOqA5tnSolsHPswUeYhDG78N0pyG3nkvgBtAUskZ+CXIjlBoJW8Ycoq+AKGo Xl/fLDHekQSFVnZQMuskqlCb2VvdN0ttjSkdf1uk6mZux6Vp1tRHAe24DFvwoItVv7 M5/mgPB5BatijS86tDSI+pl0AQlfDKnEy46lwC/4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <03fbb48a-c05e-bb46-e255-8074d78f5a14@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:33:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5948884AAB2EC897A2CF0BED" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:33:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5948884AAB2EC897A2CF0BED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an immutable diff. We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very explicit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request space will be quite complicate. On 8/27/21 11:58 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > > On 28/08/2021, at 4:10 PM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> >> Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: >>> All - >>> >>> We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff >>> services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there >>> are robots that don't honor the requests. >>> >>> These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing >>> something else. >>> >>> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to >>> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something >>> that would break, please say so. >>> ... >> >> Hm. >> >> This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to >> diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true. >> > > It sounds as if you’re saying that once a diff has been created there > is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least > a period, by a public URL - is that correct? > > Jay > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > >> Best regards, Julian >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------5948884AAB2EC897A2CF0BED Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an immutable diff.

We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very explicit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request space will be quite complicate.

On 8/27/21 11:58 PM, Jay Daley wrote:

On 28/08/2021, at 4:10 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks:
All -

We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff
services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there
are robots that don't honor the requests.

These requests take resources that could reasonably be used doing
something else.

We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to
require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something
that would break, please say so.
...

Hm.

This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to
diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true.


It sounds as if you’re saying that once a diff has been created there is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a period, by a public URL - is that correct?

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director

Best regards, Julian

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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--------------5948884AAB2EC897A2CF0BED-- From nobody Sat Aug 28 06:35:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5CF63A10F4 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rXMEFDWgAMoU for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C7973A10F3 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17SDZ6Aq082339 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:35:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630157707; bh=XXEWaW1iQij+Cizk4uR7tM9iqPesrvUAte6fiMY5tYI=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=oYRPmhLgw2osDnRWcvXvhGKLg8PVY3et5kKeALNao0iCbP+LixiAB3VB/irRkdtM/ V++Ebbrwd/Y37BjyjHWnI3a5TPFuu74Rn8Nze6/cMGYjoByr8TwYkIlvabCjaP/7p/ +26SlDl0Bd1pewZBPaz/QX27xZ4+hYG5+UDR37+s= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <66cf6755-197c-2ef8-5374-26bbc85875f0@nostrum.com> <6aefbc18-176e-b482-ba38-26745c7196f4@gmx.de> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <13c8e846-b302-809a-2809-ff650d66a476@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:35:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6aefbc18-176e-b482-ba38-26745c7196f4@gmx.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:35:15 -0000 On 8/28/21 3:54 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks: >> All - >> >> We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff >> services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there >> are robots that don't honor the requests. >> ... > > Out of curiosity: are these robots accessing *existing* diffs (that have > been requested before), or are they creating new diffs? > > How do you know that those are robots? Quite clear client id in the requests, and the pattern is not "looking at drafts that have recently changed". > > Keep in mind that draft announcements contain links to diffs, so the > first client following these will invoke "rfcdiff", no? > > Best regards, Julian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sat Aug 28 06:40:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E74A3A1170; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wQGl-p-B9Ehl; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D308B3A116C; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id x2-20020a1c7c02000000b002e6f1f69a1eso11260867wmc.5; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5vRjxIcPtgGPQsUf+cr3FndBIxOby6MB/+LTg6QU1bs=; b=dhVQ0+bXbwYF1bVmxIj8+WMzvOoDufyeezlq90Mu58WmynL81+vHzyN3CPag7a2GGp UyHoDkKhCpcLehAvWiPzdIrtuAZ7K1Z0g9X8PVJqBGhGR3YaTJ/kTGyE5cIgz1t6N2TX AL1rx0wLA3ieCNyFCh4jItuWl0FM36AYawqACUXc0aL2tFupZt8j7whR13lqaa4Y45lw 0VL3g/N1IVabtIoITz5SAZkchcDenJ/TtaSjnOstc5ETuKUw+BGNNeu2mQppGbgFRJMy 5vG4EeU9xcMo59iv54ELprVv4ef3a+Ap96x/8l8WnY5wdOr60dGnL0X/0TEYCc5kauBH f1VA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5vRjxIcPtgGPQsUf+cr3FndBIxOby6MB/+LTg6QU1bs=; b=VbnBRbZqAd1Hq9K1MyWfCCsCnkSkT04jcSmIlaBEuN2uMMktqRKrw/7jnIYH/IsCdv U3Pmnw0JOXeZk7T60gyn95o5x4OR67AO564LBgGhcJxws8M03Mvr8KERk+XRuiHg7uQY MYn5AXB+xzdcwKX5wr0QulQy/N738HEQ18CC6eSKlv8p/AhBFL41nauSEu18Z4Hr5Ew9 ys5Odp0w12lb4Iy+UmFfu55zHAuOC6n0b0G4T5TR/m3Fi+ZnihVHAjtjkqetzw2DqHE/ nuecjQwFwQ3NK/zfvmc5OzAebE62uUHQCAvKKMSWkBzaoeyC/qTuHczD3koPoG+nwb3h xwdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532V3b5Cr0LOMimvZ2udRwJSuGDVhSc2L8ZnMN1ankj5+MPVKIXb YregFj2cbNNfq6HZJPmFaHScmSOL+ZQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzN+e+NqAPXu+Ti7VBs1sFhv0o3V21LGqZ48YafLH/1905SGJ416zjnIkXUQHgVbQme5h1TWA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:5102:: with SMTP id o2mr5188315wms.104.1630158019856; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.138.216] ([12.207.193.226]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4sm9315960wrp.33.2021.08.28.06.40.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <7DE9F0EA-478F-47A3-A230-F683C4CB2F35@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C2585A32-BA6E-4871-A486-CF65638E2FAE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:40:14 -0700 In-Reply-To: <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> Cc: Bob Hinden , Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Jay Daley References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:40:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C2585A32-BA6E-4871-A486-CF65638E2FAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Jay, > On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > =E2=80=A6. >>>=20 >>> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is = to >>> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something >>> that would break, please say so. >>> ... >>=20 >> Hm. >>=20 >> This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to >> diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is = true. >>=20 >=20 > It sounds as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has been = created there is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, = for at least a period, by a public URL - is that correct? To be specific, when an Internet Draft is published it includes a links = that include one to a diff from the previous version. For example: >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark/ >=20 > There is also an htmlized version available at: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09 I think Julian is correct, these links should work without a login. Bob >=20 > Jay >=20 > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director >=20 >> Best regards, Julian >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail=_C2585A32-BA6E-4871-A486-CF65638E2FAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7WwtTI0bSmb for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60B123A1243 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 06:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 17SDvS0C027773 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:57:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1630159049; bh=5E200wco9HYQYfXjqgZClkjl9MFj27Tn50brpPUhJcE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=jMo3kkcpTFOoSKZamdivZU2/ClOf/PH8v8xV7xdQHHj2NH4ihh33tA7fvCo901TP2 2Sky6IPcXWfzzXkNDPZq9jW6+OwQGpsEnNEMxNSpsh3vE8hpZAjJm7cKz0yqgHrGob 9CYeXxpKP/FoQkb8COGSgNBStYqb7KNSVH59NDj0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> <7DE9F0EA-478F-47A3-A230-F683C4CB2F35@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:57:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7DE9F0EA-478F-47A3-A230-F683C4CB2F35@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9C9BFA89297CFE76C02577EF" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:57:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9C9BFA89297CFE76C02577EF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps we should move the diffs like those (where we know the result of the diff is invariant) to a different service that can be aggressively cached. To be clear - I mean change the form of the URL to somewhere else for those, leaving the "diff arbitrary things" service where it is and require login for that. RjS On 8/28/21 8:40 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Jay, > >> On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >> …. >>>> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to >>>> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something >>>> that would break, please say so. >>>> ... >>> Hm. >>> >>> This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to >>> diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true. >>> >> It sounds as if you’re saying that once a diff has been created there is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a period, by a public URL - is that correct? > To be specific, when an Internet Draft is published it includes a links that include one to a diff from the previous version. For example: > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark/ >> >> There is also an htmlized version available at: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09 > I think Julian is correct, these links should work without a login. > > Bob > > >> Jay >> >> -- >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> >>> Best regards, Julian >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------9C9BFA89297CFE76C02577EF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Perhaps we should move the diffs like those (where we know the result of the diff is invariant) to a different service that can be aggressively cached.

To be clear - I mean change the form of the URL to somewhere else for those, leaving the "diff arbitrary things" service where it is and require login for that.

RjS

On 8/28/21 8:40 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
Jay,


On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
….

We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to
require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something
that would break, please say so.
...

Hm.

This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to
diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true.


It sounds as if you’re saying that once a diff has been created there is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least a period, by a public URL - is that correct?

To be specific, when an Internet Draft is published it includes a links that include one to a diff from  the previous version.  For example:


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09

I think Julian is correct, these links should work without a login.

Bob



Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director


Best regards, Julian

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


      

      

      
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


    

  


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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 08:13:07 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Robert Sparks 
Cc: tools-discuss 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b81e2305caa00b60"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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In assessing this question it would be helpful to have a sense of the CPU
consumption of this service.

For instance, how many requests per second are there? What fraction of the
machine does it take up?

-Ekr


On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 6:57 AM Robert Sparks  wrote:

> Perhaps we should move the diffs like those (where we know the result of
> the diff is invariant) to a different service that can be aggressively
> cached.
>
> To be clear - I mean change the form of the URL to somewhere else for
> those, leaving the "diff arbitrary things" service where it is and requir=
e
> login for that.
>
> RjS
> On 8/28/21 8:40 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
>
> Jay,
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Jay Daley   wrote:
> =E2=80=A6.
>
> We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to
> require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something
> that would break, please say so.
> ...
>
> Hm.
>
> This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to
> diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true.
>
>
> It sounds as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has been created t=
here is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, for at least =
a period, by a public URL - is that correct?
>
> To be specific, when an Internet Draft is published it includes a links t=
hat include one to a diff from  the previous version.  For example:
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark/
>
> There is also an htmlized version available at:https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:https://www.ietf.org/rfc=
diff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09
>
> I think Julian is correct, these links should work without a login.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> Jay
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
>
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/tools-discuss
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/tools-discuss
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/tools-discuss
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

--000000000000b81e2305caa00b60
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


In assessing this question it would be helpful to hav=
e a sense of the CPU consumption of this service.

=
For instance, how many requests per second are there? What fraction of the =
machine does it take up?

-Ekr


On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 6:57 AM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

 =20
   =20
 =20
  

    
Perhaps we should move the diffs like those (where we know the
      result of the diff is invariant) to a different service that can
      be aggressively cached.

    
To be clear - I mean change the form of the URL to somewhere else
      for those, leaving the "diff arbitrary things" service wher=
e it is
      and require login for that.

    
RjS

    

    
On 8/28/21 8:40 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:

    

    

      
Jay,



      

        
On Aug 27, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.org> wro=
te:
=E2=80=A6.


        

          

            
We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The =
first is to
require login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something
that would break, please say so.
...


          

          
Hm.

This seems to assume that everybody who ocasionally follows a link to
diffs has and wants a datatracker account. I don't think that is true.



        

        
It sounds as if you=E2=80=99re saying that once a diff has bee=
n created there is a use case for retaining that diff and publishing it, fo=
r at least a period, by a public URL - is that correct?


      

      
To be specific, when an Internet Draft is published it includes =
a links that include one to a diff from  the previous version.  For example=
:



      

        
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-al=
t-mark/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-=
6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man=
-ipv6-alt-mark-09


      

      
I think Julian is correct, these links should work without a log=
in.

Bob




      

        
Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director



        

          
Best regards, Julian

___________________________________________________________
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From nobody Sat Aug 28 12:13:18 2021
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff serv=
ices. We
    > ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but there are robots t=
hat
    > don't honor the requests.

I have no opinion about idnits.
I have and do use rfcdiff URLs as part of postings about what changed in
drafts (as does the DT!), and also in slides.  I'm guessing that it's these
links that robots are following,  not trying to recurse on the service URL
itself.   A cloudflare or other CAPTCHA might work as well here.

As I understand you, following these URLs would require having a DT login.
I feel that this might feel (emphasis about this world) like putting a payw=
all on IETF content.
Yes, a login is free, but

    > We are considering mechanisms to help shed that load. The first is to=
 require
    > login with datatracker credentials. If you know of something that wou=
ld
    > break, please say so.

Ideally, it would require a DT login only to create new rfcdiff content, but
not to follow the links.  I don't think that that is workable as things are
setup now.

The content would ideally cache more, although I've often used
a non-versioned .txt file from github as url2, which lets me hit refresh as
things get merged.

In order to make the results public, we'd have to have rfcdiff save it's
output somewhere and return a link to that content.  I recognize that I can
save the results and find a place to put it and use that link.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From nobody Sun Aug 29 13:56:55 2021
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Just got this from amsl relaying the mail server of a recipient of a =
message I sent:

   host
   mx01.puc.rediris.es[130.206.19.162] said: 554 5.7.1 Your email from
   4.31.198.44 has been rejected by the RedIRIS Reputation Service =
because it
   has been considered spam,probably because your email contains a =
suspicious
   link by https://www.fortiguard.com/.=20

(The mail message I sent did not have any links in it, certainly not =
containing www.fortiguard.com.)

Now, I=E2=80=99m used to failures in SPF processing when I send mail to =
relay addresses such as "draft-irtf-t2trg-=E2=80=A6@ietf.org", but that =
rejection cause is new to me.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were
    > immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular=
, diffs
    > that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an im=
mutable
    > diff.

Exactly.

And this is a useful thing, particularly for design teams having a meeting.
Being able to share a link that updates as the design team merges commits
(generating the .txt file into github or a private web server).

For the design team use, having a DT login is probably fine.  Thanks to
pandemic and meetecho, most contributors have a DT login, but that wasn't
the case three years ago.

    > We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that =
are of
    > things we know won't change be of the form that uses very explicit so=
urce
    > urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as I note=
d a
    > moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request space=
 will be
    > quite complicate.

I think that this is a good way to go.

The emails that the DT emits on ID publication contain links, and are
archived and indexed by search engines are likely the places where we are
experiencing pain.

I think that it is reasonable to make www.ietf.org/rfcdiff require DT login,
but also, to change the link that the DT emits on ID posting to be something
else which is more easily cached.

You will recall I asked if we can have rfcdiff generate self-referential UR=
Ls
at the top.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From nobody Sun Aug 29 14:32:57 2021
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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Eric Rescorla  wrote:
    > In assessing this question it would be helpful to have a sense of the=
 CPU
    > consumption of this service.

    > For instance, how many requests per second are there? What fraction o=
f the
    > machine does it take up?

Agreed... is this a problem that can be solved with a bit of cash.

I've suggested at least, https://rfcdiff.ietf.org/ would let us move it
around, and perhaps use the "cloud" to spin CPU up/down for this effort.


=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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{again, I have no problem with DT login for idnits.  Can we split the
discussion here?}

Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > For the ones that don't, they quite often identify a draft without a =
version
    > (rfcdiff in particular) and ask the tool to figure out source to use.=
 A
    > constant cache timeout would be a real inconvenience for users when t=
hey
    > publish a new version, and invalidation, while possible, would requir=
e some
    > complicated coordination with the datatracker.

The DT emails say:

} A diff from the previous version is available at:
} https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-anima-constrained-voucher-=
13

with a version attached, with the implied url1 being -12.
That seems very definite and very cachable, right?

I think we are in agreement that having a different URL for these emails
which went to an aggressively cached thing would be just fine.


=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > On 8/28/21 3:54 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
    >> Am 27.08.2021 um 23:56 schrieb Robert Sparks:
    >>> All -
    >>>
    >>> We currently let anonymous users exercise the idnits and rfcdiff
    >>> services. We ask robots not to, using the usual mechanisms, but the=
re
    >>> are robots that don't honor the requests.
    >>> ...
    >>
    >> Out of curiosity: are these robots accessing *existing* diffs (that =
have
    >> been requested before), or are they creating new diffs?
    >>
    >> How do you know that those are robots?

    > Quite clear client id in the requests, and the pattern is not "lookin=
g at
    > drafts that have recently changed".

name and shame? :-)

Are some of these robots actually email virus scanning things which are
trying to judge the reputation of the links?

Or are we strictly talking about mis-behaving search engines?

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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On 2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>=20
> This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were =
immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, =
diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an =
immutable diff.

The varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.
(So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect URL, =
which in turn could be temporarily cached.)

> We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that =
are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very =
explicit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, =
but as I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire =
request space will be quite complicate.

BTW,
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09
is immutable.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: IETF Executive Director 
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Let me try and put this altogether:

First some definitions:

A.  Category A is=20
- a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
- an RFC in DT

B. Category B is
- a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number

C. Category C
- any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub

Then the process

1.  Requesting a new diff requires a DT login

2.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a diff =
that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated URL and which is =
never re-generated.

3.  Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other =
document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an =
unauthenticated URL.  When a new version of the draft is submitted, all =
such diffs are automatically regenerated.

4.  Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A or =
Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by =
an unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, instead a =
manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
- by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button
- by an API call using a DT API key

Does that sound about right?

Jay


> On 30/08/2021, at 9:40 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
> On 2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>>=20
>> This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were =
immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, =
diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an =
immutable diff.
>=20
> The varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.
> (So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect =
URL, which in turn could be temporarily cached.)
>=20
>> We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that =
are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very =
explicit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, =
but as I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire =
request space will be quite complicate.
>=20
> BTW,
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09
> is immutable.
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: =
datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




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On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 3:29 PM IETF Executive Director <
exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

> Let me try and put this altogether:
>
> First some definitions:
>
> A.  Category A is
> - a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
> - an RFC in DT
>
> B. Category B is
> - a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number
>
> C. Category C
> - any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub
>
> Then the process
>
> 1.  Requesting a new diff requires a DT login
>
> 2.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a diff
> that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated URL and which is
> never re-generated.
>
> 3.  Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other documen=
t
> creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated URL=
.
> When a new version of the draft is submitted, all such diffs are
> automatically regenerated.
>
> 4.  Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A or
> Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an
> unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, instead a manua=
l
> regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
> - by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button
> - by an API call using a DT API key
>
> Does that sound about right?
>

Are you summarizing the proposal or are you asking if people agree to this?
If the former, yes, this seems right. If the latter, I'd like to understand
the cost of the current unauthenticated design before having an opinion.

-Ekr

Jay
>
>
> > On 30/08/2021, at 9:40 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> >
> > On 2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
> >>
> >> This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were
> immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular,
> diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an
> immutable diff.
> >
> > The varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.
> > (So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect URL=
,
> which in turn could be temporarily cached.)
> >
> >> We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that
> are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very explicit
> source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as I
> noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request
> space will be quite complicate.
> >
> > BTW,
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09
> > is immutable.
> >
> > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:
> datatracker-project@ietf.org
> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

--0000000000000011f605caba4877
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




=

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 3:29 PM IETF =
Executive Director <exec-direc=
tor@ietf.org> wrote:
Let me try and put this altogether:



First some definitions:



A.=C2=A0 Category A is 

- a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number

- an RFC in DT



B. Category B is

- a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number



C. Category C

- any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub



Then the process



1.=C2=A0 Requesting a new diff requires a DT login



2.=C2=A0 Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a dif=
f that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated URL and which is n=
ever re-generated.



3.=C2=A0 Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other docu=
ment creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated =
URL.=C2=A0 When a new version of the draft is submitted, all such diffs are=
 automatically regenerated.



4.=C2=A0 Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A o=
r Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an=
 unauthenticated URL.=C2=A0 There is no automatic regeneration, instead a m=
anual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms

- by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button

- by an API call using a DT API key



Does that sound about right?

Are you su=
mmarizing the proposal or are you asking if people agree to this? If the fo=
rmer, yes, this seems right. If the latter, I'd like to understand the =
cost of the current unauthenticated design before having an opinion.

-Ekr


Jay





> On 30/08/2021, at 9:40 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> 

> On 2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

>> 

>> This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that wer=
e immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, di=
ffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an immu=
table diff.

> 

> The varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.

> (So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect UR=
L, which in turn could be temporarily cached.)

> 

>> We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker th=
at are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very exp=
licit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as=
 I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request =
space will be quite complicate.

> 

> BTW,

> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdif=
f?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09

> is immutable.

> 

> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

> 

> ___________________________________________________________

> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org

> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<=
br>
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org

> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org

> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss



-- 

Jay Daley

IETF Executive Director

exec-director@i=
etf.org







___________________________________________________________

Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org

This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.

* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org

* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org

* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org

List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss




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To: IETF Executive Director 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On 2021-08-30, at 00:29, IETF Executive Director =
 wrote:
>=20
> 4.  Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A =
or Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible =
by an unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, instead =
a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
> - by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button
> - by an API call using a DT API key
>=20
> Does that sound about right?

That procedure would invalidate frequently used links such as those on =
https://github.com/core-wg/senml-versions :

	=E2=80=A2 Compare Editor's Copy to Working Group Draft

This needs to work without explicit interaction.
(Of course, a github action could be developed for pressing the =
=E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D button, but this all strikes me as fragile =
and error-prone.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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> On 30/08/2021, at 10:31 AM, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 3:29 PM IETF Executive Director =
> wrote:
> Let me try and put this altogether:
>=20
> First some definitions:
>=20
> A.  Category A is=20
> - a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
> - an RFC in DT
>=20
> B. Category B is
> - a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number
>=20
> C. Category C
> - any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub
>=20
> Then the process
>=20
> 1.  Requesting a new diff requires a DT login
>=20
> 2.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a =
diff that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated URL and =
which is never re-generated.
>=20
> 3.  Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other =
document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an =
unauthenticated URL.  When a new version of the draft is submitted, all =
such diffs are automatically regenerated.
>=20
> 4.  Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A =
or Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible =
by an unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, instead =
a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
> - by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button
> - by an API call using a DT API key
>=20
> Does that sound about right?
>=20
> Are you summarizing the proposal or are you asking if people agree to =
this? If the former, yes, this seems right. If the latter, I'd like to =
understand the cost of the current unauthenticated design before having =
an opinion.

Trying to summarise.  This could be written without mentioning =
authentication and the generate/cache/regenerate logic would be =
unchanged.

Jay

>=20
> -Ekr
>=20
> Jay
>=20
>=20
> > On 30/08/2021, at 9:40 AM, Carsten Bormann > wrote:
> >=20
> > On 2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks > wrote:
> >>=20
> >> This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were =
immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, =
diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an =
immutable diff.
> >=20
> > The varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.
> > (So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect =
URL, which in turn could be temporarily cached.)
> >=20
> >> We could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker =
that are of things we know won't change be of the form that uses very =
explicit source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, =
but as I noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire =
request space will be quite complicate.
> >=20
> > BTW,
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-09 =

> > is immutable.
> >=20
> > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> >=20
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org =

> > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: =
datatracker-project@ietf.org 
> > * Report tools.ietf.org  bugs to: =
webmaster@tools.ietf.org 
> > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org =

> > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss =

>=20
> --=20
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org 
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org =

> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: =
datatracker-project@ietf.org 
> * Report tools.ietf.org  bugs to: =
webmaster@tools.ietf.org 
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org =

> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss =

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




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On 30/08/2021, at 10:31 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> =
wrote:



On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at =
3:29 PM IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
Let me try =
and put this altogether:

First some =
definitions:

A.  Category A is 
- a draft =
that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
- =
an RFC in DT

B. Category B is
-=
 a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number

C. Category C
- any document =
that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub

Then the process

1.  =
Requesting a new diff requires a DT login

2.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents =
generates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated =
URL and which is never re-generated.

3. =
 Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other document =
creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by an unauthenticated =
URL.  When a new version of the draft is submitted, all such diffs =
are automatically regenerated.

4.  =
Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A or =
Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by =
an unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, =
instead a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two =
mechanisms
- by any authenticated user pressing a =
"regenerate" button
- by an API call using a DT API key

Does that sound about right?

Are you summarizing the proposal or are you asking if people =
agree to this? If the former, yes, this seems right. If the latter, I'd =
like to understand the cost of the current unauthenticated design before =
having an opinion.

Trying to summarise.  This could be written =
without mentioning authentication and the generate/cache/regenerate =
logic would be unchanged.

Jay

-Ekr

Jay


> =
On 30/08/2021, at 9:40 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
> 
> On =
2021-08-28, at 15:33, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
>> 
>> =
This would only make sense if the diff were of two things that were =
immutable. That happens sometime, but not all the time. In particular, =
diffs that use a pronoun (a draft name with no version) does not have an =
immutable diff.
> 
> The =
varying diffs could redirect to the immutable ones.
> =
(So the processing would be about simply finding the right redirect URL, =
which in turn could be temporarily cached.)
> 
>> We =
could look to making the links to diffs from the datatracker that are of =
things we know won't change be of the form that uses very explicit =
source urls, and that could become at least locally cacheable, but as I =
noted a moment ago, trying to utilize caching across the entire request =
space will be quite complicate.
> 
> BTW,
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-ma=
rk-09
> is immutable.
> 
> =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
> 
> =
___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is =
for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
>=
 * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * =
Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all =
other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info =
(including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org



___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for =
discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* =
Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other =
bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including =
how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss



-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive =
Director
exec-director@ietf.org






=

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> On 30/08/2021, at 10:32 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
> On 2021-08-30, at 00:29, IETF Executive Director =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> 4.  Requesting a diff between a Category C document and a Category A =
or Category C document creates a diff that is cached and is accessible =
by an unauthenticated URL.  There is no automatic regeneration, instead =
a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
>> - by any authenticated user pressing a "regenerate" button
>> - by an API call using a DT API key
>>=20
>> Does that sound about right?
>=20
> That procedure would invalidate frequently used links such as those on =
https://github.com/core-wg/senml-versions :
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 Compare Editor's Copy to Working Group Draft
>=20
> This needs to work without explicit interaction.
> (Of course, a github action could be developed for pressing the =
=E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D button, but this all strikes me as fragile =
and error-prone.)

That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is not cached =
and is regenerated each time it is requested.  Is that correct?

Jay

>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On 2021-08-30, at 00:37, IETF Executive Director =
 wrote:
>=20
> That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is not =
cached and is regenerated each time it is requested.  Is that correct?

I can=E2=80=99t parse that.

Clicking on the link on the github page indeed requests a diff that =
cannot be cached (beyond caching the downloaded github version and using =
a cached result only when data are unchanged or Not Modified etc. is =
detected).

In my proposal to redirect varying content URIs to immutable URIs, the =
latter could employ a hash and/or ETags.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 09:13:36 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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The usual pattern for dealing with this is to accept the POST request, generate the content, give that content a new URI (either something random or a function of its inputs, it doesn't matter), and then return a response that redirects to the new URI.  That works for any form of input.  It also means that you can use the generated URI without fresh authorization, including caching.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2021, at 23:29, Robert Sparks wrote:
> 
> On 8/28/21 12:56 AM, Lars Eggert wrote:
> > Can they be fronted by Cloudflare? Or all these all unique requests?
> 
> They are too unique. Quite often they involve upload (idnits in 
> particular) of different files with the same name.
> 
> For the ones that don't, they quite often identify a draft without a 
> version (rfcdiff in particular) and ask the tool to figure out source to 
> use. A constant cache timeout would be a real inconvenience for users 
> when they publish a new version, and invalidation, while possible, would 
> require some complicated coordination with the datatracker.
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: 
> datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 09:17:54 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, at 08:42, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2021-08-30, at 00:37, IETF Executive Director  wrote:
> >=20
> > That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is not cac=
hed and is regenerated each time it is requested.  Is that correct?
>=20
> I can=E2=80=99t parse that.
>=20
> Clicking on the link on the github page indeed requests a diff that=20
> cannot be cached (beyond caching the downloaded github version and=20
> using a cached result only when data are unchanged or Not Modified etc=
.=20
> is detected).

For the specific case you describe - assuming the load is unacceptable -=
 the link could be gated behind a login.  Following that link is often d=
one by a human using their browser.  Not all of those humans will have a=
 login on datatracker, but many of those that care about that link do, a=
nd asking the others to make an account would not be an unreasonable imp=
osition.


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On 30. Aug 2021, at 01:17, Martin Thomson  wrote:
>=20
> Not all of those humans will have a login on datatracker, but many of =
those that care about that link do, and asking the others to make an =
account would not be an unreasonable imposition.

There is a certain cost (unintended consequence) to that:
The more people we incentivize to get datatracker accounts, the less we =
can rely on them as something that can serve as a speedbump to limit the =
set of people who can do something.
But maybe it is necessary to say goodbye to the simplistic idea that =
datatracker account ~=3D IETFer.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 09:43:05 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
To: "Carsten Bormann" 
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, at 09:32, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 30. Aug 2021, at 01:17, Martin Thomson  wrote:
> > 
> > Not all of those humans will have a login on datatracker, but many of those that care about that link do, and asking the others to make an account would not be an unreasonable imposition.
> 
> There is a certain cost (unintended consequence) to that:
> The more people we incentivize to get datatracker accounts, the less we 
> can rely on them as something that can serve as a speedbump to limit 
> the set of people who can do something.

True.  But we already have that problem.  Ask how many accounts exist.

(There are other ways to manage this that don't end up relying on this mechanism, but I don't know if those have already been exercised.)


From nobody Sun Aug 29 16:54:24 2021
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From: IETF Executive Director 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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Let me have another go at putting this together, for now leaving aside =
the authentication part:

A.  Category A is=20
- a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
- an RFC in DT

B. Category B is
- a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number

C. Category C
- any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub

Then the process

1.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a diff =
that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that was used to make =
the request.  Accessing the URI never results in re-generation unless =
the cache has expired.

2.  Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other =
document creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to =
that cached diff.  When the new URI is accessed then the cached diff is =
returned unless it has expired in which case it is regenerated first.  =
When the original URI is accessed then that:
- triggers a check to see if any Category B document has changed and if =
so then a new diff is generated.=20
- redirects to the latest diff URI

3.  A diff between a Category C document and a Category A or Category C =
document can be requested in one of two ways:
a) creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that =
was used to make the request.  There is no automatic regeneration, =
instead a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two =
mechanisms
- by a "regenerate" button
- by an API call to DT
b) creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to that =
cached diff.  This acts exactly as 2 above.

The computational cost is actually in two parts - the generation of a =
diff and the checking to see if a cached diff needs regeneration - and I =
imagine that the impact of bots with the processes above is going to be =
more about forcing checks for regeneration than generating new diffs.  =
That could mean that DT login is only be used to protect process 2 and =
process 3b. (Notwithstanding account Ekr=E2=80=99s point that we need =
data first.)

Jay

> On 30/08/2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Thomson  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, at 08:42, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> On 2021-08-30, at 00:37, IETF Executive Director =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is not =
cached and is regenerated each time it is requested.  Is that correct?
>>=20
>> I can=E2=80=99t parse that.
>>=20
>> Clicking on the link on the github page indeed requests a diff that=20=

>> cannot be cached (beyond caching the downloaded github version and=20
>> using a cached result only when data are unchanged or Not Modified =
etc.=20
>> is detected).
>=20
> For the specific case you describe - assuming the load is unacceptable =
- the link could be gated behind a login.  Following that link is often =
done by a human using their browser.  Not all of those humans will have =
a login on datatracker, but many of those that care about that link do, =
and asking the others to make an account would not be an unreasonable =
imposition.
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: =
datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
exec-director@ietf.org




From nobody Sun Aug 29 17:01:48 2021
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From: Eric Rescorla 
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 17:01:03 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: IETF Executive Director 
Cc: tools-discuss 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 4:54 PM IETF Executive Director <
exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:

> Let me have another go at putting this together, for now leaving aside th=
e
> authentication part:
>
> A.  Category A is
> - a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number
> - an RFC in DT
>
> B. Category B is
> - a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number
>
> C. Category C
> - any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub
>
> Then the process
>
> 1.  Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a diff
> that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that was used to make th=
e
> request.  Accessing the URI never results in re-generation unless the cac=
he
> has expired.
>
> 2.  Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other documen=
t
> creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to that cach=
ed
> diff.  When the new URI is accessed then the cached diff is returned unle=
ss
> it has expired in which case it is regenerated first.  When the original
> URI is accessed then that:
> - triggers a check to see if any Category B document has changed and if s=
o
> then a new diff is generated.
> - redirects to the latest diff URI
>
> 3.  A diff between a Category C document and a Category A or Category C
> document can be requested in one of two ways:
> a) creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that
> was used to make the request.  There is no automatic regeneration, instea=
d
> a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
> - by a "regenerate" button
> - by an API call to DT
> b) creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to that
> cached diff.  This acts exactly as 2 above.
>
> The computational cost is actually in two parts - the generation of a dif=
f
> and the checking to see if a cached diff needs regeneration - and I imagi=
ne
> that the impact of bots with the processes above is going to be more abou=
t
> forcing checks for regeneration than generating new diffs.  That could me=
an
> that DT login is only be used to protect process 2 and process 3b.
> (Notwithstanding account Ekr=E2=80=99s point that we need data first.)
>

Unless things are very inefficient, forcing the check for regeneration is
not going to be that expensive once you have already gone to the trouble of
processing the request at all.

-Ekr


> Jay
>
> > On 30/08/2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Thomson  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, at 08:42, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> >> On 2021-08-30, at 00:37, IETF Executive Director <
> exec-director@ietf.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is not
> cached and is regenerated each time it is requested.  Is that correct?
> >>
> >> I can=E2=80=99t parse that.
> >>
> >> Clicking on the link on the github page indeed requests a diff that
> >> cannot be cached (beyond caching the downloaded github version and
> >> using a cached result only when data are unchanged or Not Modified etc=
.
> >> is detected).
> >
> > For the specific case you describe - assuming the load is unacceptable =
-
> the link could be gated behind a login.  Following that link is often don=
e
> by a human using their browser.  Not all of those humans will have a logi=
n
> on datatracker, but many of those that care about that link do, and askin=
g
> the others to make an account would not be an unreasonable imposition.
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:
> datatracker-project@ietf.org
> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> exec-director@ietf.org
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or=
g
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>

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=

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 4:54 PM IETF =
Executive Director <exec-direc=
tor@ietf.org> wrote:
Let me have another go at putting this together, for now leavin=
g aside the authentication part:



A.=C2=A0 Category A is 

- a draft that is in DT specified by its name with a version number

- an RFC in DT



B. Category B is

- a draft in DT specified by its name without a version number



C. Category C

- any document that is not within DT including drafts in GitHub



Then the process



1.=C2=A0 Requesting a diff between two Category A documents generates a dif=
f that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that was used to make th=
e request.=C2=A0 Accessing the URI never results in re-generation unless th=
e cache has expired.



2.=C2=A0 Requesting a diff between a Category B document and any other docu=
ment creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to that c=
ached diff.=C2=A0 When the new URI is accessed then the cached diff is retu=
rned unless it has expired in which case it is regenerated first.=C2=A0 Whe=
n the original URI is accessed then that:

- triggers a check to see if any Category B document has changed and if so =
then a new diff is generated. 

- redirects to the latest diff URI



3.=C2=A0 A diff between a Category C document and a Category A or Category =
C document can be requested in one of two ways:

a) creates a diff that is cached and is accessible by the same URI that was=
 used to make the request.=C2=A0 There is no automatic regeneration, instea=
d a manual regeneration must be requested, through one of two mechanisms
- by a "regenerate" button

- by an API call to DT

b) creates a diff that is cached and returns a new URI pointing to that cac=
hed diff.=C2=A0 This acts exactly as 2 above.



The computational cost is actually in two parts - the generation of a diff =
and the checking to see if a cached diff needs regeneration - and I imagine=
 that the impact of bots with the processes above is going to be more about=
 forcing checks for regeneration than generating new diffs.=C2=A0 That coul=
d mean that DT login is only be used to protect process 2 and process 3b. (=
Notwithstanding account Ekr=E2=80=99s point that we need data first.)

Unless things are very inefficient, forcing =
the check for regeneration is not going to be that expensive once you have =
already gone to the trouble of processing the request at all.
-Ekr




Jay



> On 30/08/2021, at 11:17 AM, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, at 08:42, Carsten Bormann wrote:

>> On 2021-08-30, at 00:37, IETF Executive Director <exec-director@ietf.org&g=
t; wrote:

>>> 

>>> That suggests the need for someone to request a diff that is n=
ot cached and is regenerated each time it is requested.=C2=A0 Is that corre=
ct?

>> 

>> I can=E2=80=99t parse that.

>> 

>> Clicking on the link on the github page indeed requests a diff tha=
t 

>> cannot be cached (beyond caching the downloaded github version and=
 

>> using a cached result only when data are unchanged or Not Modified=
 etc. 

>> is detected).

> 

> For the specific case you describe - assuming the load is unacceptable=
 - the link could be gated behind a login.=C2=A0 Following that link is oft=
en done by a human using their browser.=C2=A0 Not all of those humans will =
have a login on datatracker, but many of those that care about that link do=
, and asking the others to make an account would not be an unreasonable imp=
osition.

> 

> ___________________________________________________________

> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org

> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<=
br>
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org

> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org

> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss



-- 

Jay Daley

IETF Executive Director

exec-director@i=
etf.org







___________________________________________________________

Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org

This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.

* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org

* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org

* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org

List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/=
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Cc: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss 
To: Eric Rescorla 
References: <0b7966ea-cce6-3bfd-2641-6c93204c1eab@gmx.de> <322A8FD2-0714-4457-94FC-6B502868A078@ietf.org> <7DE9F0EA-478F-47A3-A230-F683C4CB2F35@gmail.com>  
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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Hi,

On 2021-8-28, at 18:13, Eric Rescorla  wrote:
> In assessing this question it would be helpful to have a sense of the =
CPU consumption of this service.
>=20
> For instance, how many requests per second are there? What fraction of =
the machine does it take up?

+1

I assume the rfcdiff we're talking about is the one with code here: =
https://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/code

That's a bash script around diff, awk and some other standard tools. =
What parts of it are expensive?

Thanks,
Lars


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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "'Martin Thomson'" , "'tools-discuss@ietf.org'" 
Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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To: Lars Eggert 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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On 2021-08-30, at 13:31, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>=20
> That's a bash script around diff, awk and some other standard tools. =
What parts of it are expensive?

The bash part certainly is.

Also, this uses tools URIs to obtain a version from a version-neutral =
URI, and that historically has been particularly inefficient (as it went =
through the file system with, like, 250000+ files in a directory).

The first step to fix this (if it still is a problem) would be to create =
an API for this translation that is blazingly fast because it uses a =
database index in a datatracker database.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Consider requiring login for idnits and rfcdiff
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Hi,

On 2021-8-30, at 14:55, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> On 2021-08-30, at 13:31, Lars Eggert  wrote:
>>=20
>> That's a bash script around diff, awk and some other standard tools. =
What parts of it are expensive?
>=20
> The bash part certainly is.
>=20
> Also, this uses tools URIs to obtain a version from a version-neutral =
URI, and that historically has been particularly inefficient (as it went =
through the file system with, like, 250000+ files in a directory).
>=20
> The first step to fix this (if it still is a problem) would be to =
create an API for this translation that is blazingly fast because it =
uses a database index in a datatracker database.

if we can retain the current (unauthenticated) functionality with a =
rewrite, that would certainly be my preference.

Thanks,
Lars


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