From nobody Fri Oct 1 00:02:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64C83A03FF; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRszJgBrWQgo; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5ED6D3A03FB; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 00:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id h20so9494527ilj.13; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 00:01:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ElAFTZ3Ek7EF/S1RWxwdGhrYFfuG3hBmrIjvSmVQFe0=; b=H5wZ+dsAm66wZeAUBZI2N540zhbg6yVFwqB1lrII8gKVXe0um0FAvv53+h1R2DrllF HkHyoMIToVXOp8J30V4aLcWS8ElwvtYKYmtPZ9G3q1vQyIxF/ONUfHUqQO+TNSfbT4e7 6Zpod8fi0utjp4NkULHYB5pVnR0TiUa8w9pFhxoe1PP8O88HCIraxbCDiGgFlkFJVKPY gt619rdLWhSEyG4lQgPHT+RK94n7tAAYIXxoWfY8+VbzcoSKn6Gd2FDMoVy6G+ChXnce ynbcj85wVSpW8xoQ9PX9A7V+vZUcz5OshwnJHqUsZTvrFe7w71NVMI6pPOD4EEAEJl4d MC2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ElAFTZ3Ek7EF/S1RWxwdGhrYFfuG3hBmrIjvSmVQFe0=; b=NbFVLZ9vWEVyZ9cnwtzm5zyPY+h66cCzjWKyZYXvxmHRz8xQafuu7pIfHcWQT9SzhY rO+v8BA1qq8GrT60F/U0CKUCUuPu1yIRVfv+u5gYBKuh7HxvoDsUOJneep4PxozSAuZu C2WwnjDKcIozOhYzwktQv1tlOVtQH4UQEESbEKCEYq7I02+apq6WqsXcCwv7MFEohuUD GUD3mcxufL3Fj4Iabca8JFuI1gbcP/GCsHdUzHTUOChgq4kw1AhAl3VAz/0cwL7pP/+V Hv3yiEEjgdBLCC1iZSR3h4afahie0FiUMcQKv4VfBHv3UFx2GWcgB8SnsY6gUnDtnnXz wqQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533aGv+9nRrMSYhrDP6m5Wbm5v22XulKFZz75j3XCqFS8meu0Kma KApxH9keV9eRQSG/f2GtfFkia/Z5ZCBKkfEPMC0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYJ3Kb/Igxn5phk9Xsv6R47J+tJJHvZuArMOMa6PoQ22Pyg8hFQa7WclkQE9Bt75n0aD2X1uxGfPCsVqK0r2Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:f13:: with SMTP id x19mr7934729ilj.216.1633071716321; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 00:01:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:31:20 +0530 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008b4fb105cd4523d7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 07:02:03 -0000 --0000000000008b4fb105cd4523d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Spencer, I can confirm what Lars pointed out, the manage document list in the datatracker - https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/$WG_NAME/documents/manage/ has a rule set "All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the name" -$WG_NAME- which is the reason you would be seeing those I-Ds. Thanks! Dhruv On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic". I expect > this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is > "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to > the QUIC working group. > > > > The second and third document filenames start with > "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as > related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion > on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I understand > the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are actually > out of scope for the QUIC working group. > > > > Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking for > any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position? > > IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the > QUIC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting > QUIC-related I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we > hence didn't learn about until (sometimes much) later. > > Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "manage > document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this. > > Thanks, > Lars > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000008b4fb105cd4523d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Spencer,

I can confirm what Lars pointed out, th= e manage document list in the datatracker
- https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg= /$WG_NAME/documents/manage/
has a rule set "All I-Ds with part= icular text/regular expression in the name" =C2=A0-$WG_NAME-
which= is the reason you would be seeing those I-Ds.

Thanks!
Dhruv
=

= On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic"= . I expect this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename = is "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7" rel=3D"noreferr= er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7,= and it is related to the QUIC working group.
>
> The second and third document filenames start with "draft-dawkins= -sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as related = to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion on the = MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I unders= tand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are a= ctually out of scope for the QUIC working group.
>
> Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking f= or any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position?<= br>
IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the QU= IC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting QUIC-rela= ted I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we hence didn= 't learn about until (sometimes much) later.

Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "= manage document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this.

Thanks,
Lars

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000008b4fb105cd4523d7-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 04:41:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C683A0AA4; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rC5euvO70nvT; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FA113A0AA7; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id b78so11279915iof.2; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 04:41:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DGGwJs/u0ZdfSF0YYYE5Etjr8XtziOvOs1AKogE7gJk=; b=g1+QFCeNw+1QTKbi3nLAb3JtnQBKwQdobeFQaNdGD7/3XxgtnDd0ljQug2HQNG0EZD MiSEouTeoUTHVRdA+CUQgKdWRLV385ZAXkMb/oEcNJnDhTk0t+wnSIx+RR2BIL2zo7Rs BUZKZqXJWhZ2irgk1vg3mbzvCGMEzfzoKX2jkFkvB9Uy5t6iFJIaDavx7Q0VYTzW1Ivf lFcopDVfThdeOfQrbHZJScNRwNfDwEw2KTSS4R+qucRhpPhdqcSzmptTZuT6Gn2r9Jxd 4UtpX9RUDTQk5nqC2xgf/05rp5O/ta9r2X/L+gLSHu3RTy/DOertUaLy5XOmaF2RuE3P b0Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DGGwJs/u0ZdfSF0YYYE5Etjr8XtziOvOs1AKogE7gJk=; b=5a+p+aWyLu6orWKQqIxeNQ4Lm9Tjy0PpXm1/E3pPfPJGmpd4HA841WQ2vtvRLqfAE1 TxDWaNdHMiDnk4uJUSyOdqoLbHm6yVaQiH/d/dHGZk1yOsbAk9vgAwR1NfErsEoInZEV aHU2GFwISUqrS46EiF5I++kBsD+x6PRJKHakek/p8ZNL8ln+2/Eau5crrr/a/okGeSQO JKza8i4wsKZSMEa5Qh1LSFt721Bfcox9zPoT7sbLk7aNgNIlCDpSORJxWcOzI6I9+KfL 7CW0FizEjUV+SglKuAjTmQznkXbJqBh34uRKwQVt3w1tT9/lbKa5hJsdv2Owf2dMpJsh zSQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531gqp0r/gTW9VIt83ayhDUP9Vp8TxUnQ9xFQw3RUC09f7TF0h0l vhkBUeSpF7prJw1KxC3trPUL/B0RjJG0e2DRmve/JEZMA69/1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw3lT1WH9EvSwYGvot9qULB4OdD3NYBrRvQwknbsf1ABEQ6EYlHj0Igv3iGezyk8YGwneqmrIM6x8KQWP9VhbA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:16d4:: with SMTP id g20mr9321306jat.22.1633088479908; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 04:41:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 07:41:03 -0400 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins Cc: Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb5b3705cd490a46" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:41:36 -0000 --000000000000bb5b3705cd490a46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Spencer, For my WG (pals), that rule is: ^draft-[^-]+-pals- Which I interpret as any document starting with draft- , followed by any text without a - , then followed by -pals- . So in this case, it would require pals to be in the third position. Perhaps you could ask the quic chairs to put the regex back to this form. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:02 AM Dhruv Dhody wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > I can confirm what Lars pointed out, the manage document list in the > datatracker > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/$WG_NAME/documents/manage/ > has a rule set "All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the > name" -$WG_NAME- > which is the reason you would be seeing those I-Ds. > > Thanks! > Dhruv > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> > The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic". I expect >> this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is >> "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to >> the QUIC working group. >> > >> > The second and third document filenames start with >> "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as >> related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion >> on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I understand >> the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are actually >> out of scope for the QUIC working group. >> > >> > Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking >> for any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position? >> >> IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the >> QUIC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting >> QUIC-related I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we >> hence didn't learn about until (sometimes much) later. >> >> Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "manage >> document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this. >> >> Thanks, >> Lars >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000bb5b3705cd490a46 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Spencer,

For my WG (pals), that rule is= :=C2=A0^draft-[^-]+-pals-=C2=A0

Which I interpret as any= document starting with draft- , followed by any text=C2=A0without a - , th= en followed by -pals- . So in this case, it would require pals to be in the= third position.=C2=A0 Perhaps you could ask the quic chairs to put the reg= ex back to this form.

Cheers,
Andy
=


On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:02 AM Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Sp= encer,

I can confirm what Lars pointed out, the manage document list= in the datatracker
- https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/$WG= _NAME/documents/manage/
has a rule set "All I-Ds with particul= ar text/regular expression in the name" =C2=A0-$WG_NAME-
which is = the reason you would be seeing those I-Ds.

Thanks!
Dhruv

On F= ri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:55 AM Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic"= . I expect this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename = is "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7" rel=3D"noreferr= er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7,= and it is related to the QUIC working group.
>
> The second and third document filenames start with "draft-dawkins= -sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as related = to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion on the = MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I unders= tand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are a= ctually out of scope for the QUIC working group.
>
> Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking f= or any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position?<= br>
IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the QU= IC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting QUIC-rela= ted I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we hence didn= 't learn about until (sometimes much) later.

Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "= manage document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this.

Thanks,
Lars

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000bb5b3705cd490a46-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 04:53:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E668F3A07FF; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:53:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4seW_Tz6u1LI; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 967623A0AE2; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 04:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HLT632BJ6z2xgY; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:53:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:53:46 +0200 Cc: Lars Eggert , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 654782026.877445-a07eac6c053d05e03628e1c73dc1d23d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2FE3D6A0-AFDD-4B07-8261-E739F2446F55@tzi.org> References: To: Dhruv Dhody X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 11:53:57 -0000 On 2021-10-01, at 09:01, Dhruv Dhody wrote: >=20 > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/$WG_NAME/documents/manage/=20 I find it a bit weird that we can=E2=80=99t see that page (of course = updating access should be limited to the WG=E2=80=99s chairs and ADs). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Oct 1 05:44:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEA53A0C74; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 05:44:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oc8xDr1vEdtp; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 05:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2A923A0E03; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 05:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id r18so34217815edv.12; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 05:44:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ykfgPpHSrPyyp+f7+5gRvzsGpYQ9Uav1KeW9RGU3H/4=; b=J8DNw3TDrJzjsPyDXUVRVDDRErfnj5039r5o6K7qC72dmi/m79HVZk0hf3ox8tYLhU v4vwdUUP511JgLaxGrZHQudlrtuNwgRNhGtXmnY50pYUrezHQ0LtXx8iE7UXg9uxp29N ypRYw4i1fHwjDwlvfKT4+8M/k2Tey0SHSTgE34Q0zzfjTZw/w39gH6NeL9Ss3Xv+Qe1S QJPKLsQswam31BtkOanSH/q92JgtgRIdJCrb71yilpu9qMz1WH8JWx662rGipVkhVBjG AXJv5xxPcHH+iLbRRrLw5D3nnjOdL9NAWTIz51YUHdW74iNL6epeqgrZAe6BGFQta60f mNpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ykfgPpHSrPyyp+f7+5gRvzsGpYQ9Uav1KeW9RGU3H/4=; b=U98nhrASvQUVO4SDRNvLbsmJKGdiAMDZ/TpHxkcfnTMW7dNm7NRNgmCYdfBZmKS7ad RUr34hQRjrMwxOF/SIs3OXxYtYurJfkgNoUfb7DamDC99oIj0vvKUEPFYhpnzMlvX8P8 jc42CXLmMW5wgL4NcciDqCzd5HOjf1YrYOVTLmYj2IIlx0COrs/UW6Sw8fNrfPC0XotW 3YKkbbow6Kl9hnY7qORNuu+jpaDFBIf/U2unRghfnSNFkLfqzUHfeUa2Ilo3dthpM8BJ ALDAJmDHiu/n1Zh0PrwqJkpeRGO96k/UGl751KnKU3mXlp3Ys4zG7tPBWsmQaHPvQtaI ZUfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533G5fuvGQStYYoUb9oiUgiCWkKFDm7uwyuEhPpgTPpFG8dlhMxD TH48GTfh9GV8tORplTTEuACkOPZkivYo97suXiwkyBhg X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzuYn09jioiK9DGMIUH7KR0mNbu6j7McHa8SMmZFwhY2fwP2J1KADqWhnpZXafS0L72Iuv0a0gGBJyJcIvRK5s= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:1146:: with SMTP id i6mr6156196eja.12.1633092254669; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 05:44:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 13:44:03 +0100 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b99e1b05cd49ebcb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:44:28 -0000 --000000000000b99e1b05cd49ebcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 07:25 Lars Eggert, wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic". I expect > this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is > "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to > the QUIC working group. > > > > The second and third document filenames start with > "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as > related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion > on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I understand > the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are actually > out of scope for the QUIC working group. > > > > Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking for > any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position? > > IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the > QUIC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting > QUIC-related I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we > hence didn't learn about until (sometimes much) later. > > Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "manage > document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this. > I've become accustomed to the behaviour now. To my mind out of scope for a charter doesn't mean unrelated. I think the datatracker does a decent job with tags that it can let us clearly mark drafts that are serious contenders for adoption vs other more tangential things. If there's a problem that the current pattern causes then we can have a discussion but otherwise I'd leave it as is. > --000000000000b99e1b05cd49ebcb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 07:25 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkin= s.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic"= . I expect this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename = is "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7" rel=3D"noreferr= er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guideli= nes/#7, and it is related to the QUIC working group.
>
> The second and third document filenames start with "draft-dawkins= -sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as related = to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion on the = MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I unders= tand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are a= ctually out of scope for the QUIC working group.
>
> Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking f= or any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position?<= br>
IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the QU= IC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting QUIC-rela= ted I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we hence didn= 't learn about until (sometimes much) later.

Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "= manage document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this.
<= /blockquote>

I'= ;ve become accustomed to the behaviour now. To my mind out of scope for a c= harter doesn't mean unrelated. I think the datatracker does a decent jo= b with tags that it can let us clearly mark drafts that are serious contend= ers for adoption vs other more tangential things.
If there's a problem that the current pattern= causes then we can have a discussion but otherwise I'd leave it as is.=


--000000000000b99e1b05cd49ebcb-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 06:26:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E628C3A00CF; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MEuMoellJyIa; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36EED3A00B2; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id t36so6670400uad.4; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:26:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=068Z0nC6cgQdvpH0+BpzG/1Liu5jKAH6KS18jUekd6Y=; b=KkRe+PkdpO/kQbBfKMyJuHHhnvXWTu1ya4F7JvWIeHUJMBBeY/5bwfmDNR6O/mct9Q sjPEiGbSZiU7AyEzlUGZkYGbdnUdOe6KSH9Bict4WyPoIT3hkRhrxTJWEeRz1JtpsdfU WEdA2Pn6X8YHhvoKjf/FPXBnboSSGpf/YuGrfgQLh/MtfHIyzeq+pN4vkXAOwHwzRVxl lA6N1jHkNX/zYUzuAuWbCoM1oJnY3LXyKUIbC/QB/b5KMCUlckVKMkCaRYUD1XcdkK7J Kf1GEj4ZaQBSXBeVlooPwkhMTpVyb+UPso46H5cUzHI4IbYVg5MN+rna+f4R8YcFZ9Qf J01Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=068Z0nC6cgQdvpH0+BpzG/1Liu5jKAH6KS18jUekd6Y=; b=NK/lzsjAJ8DhyHUfBqXldqNmjhCcbjMM1dzR3qBXFCOf1bmNSYOUc1EvpPedKlapM/ Y/k2C+poDdZyFuzGpEQJnrodvtLc4PMyq0APRJgmXgRsVL7GkHCpSdkSv1ulFjTMmYAM x6prU83EjCdJd70OBzF6Gc1Ws0ClB7tiWXKrgoMZgz+Y4T7000xLuO6QKk7BTlDCmvsL JJKbGylZ4uyqo8ZnWprGCnmnWfUFcVPRNhYkb4swJVxAd8rBFoUlxxJIssPSAFEOhPyM u2PyaThoo6xU2C7EJQRfPtNaziXR5eP5Mn3AKldZThUwfe6Tks01vgLqA080u3h4RYsZ a/hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531mthv3NMr/g377d0oEEEbM0YamApHUVpsbGcopFM+jRA7i68vP V0oDA3+puowpVklnM6BCuFurOznOBqPX0uhs9inMh9UY628= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+XGHsQcjbMCH1YD7MGgSfm5SiwCXAntxA/wj6DU2R+ncT3rXFCH1sYMP/7L5QRuBYraoGa6A5vJBWRYbtJss= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:5448:: with SMTP id o8mr10025350uaa.59.1633094774477; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:25:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lucas Pardue Cc: Lars Eggert , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ead6e705cd4a814f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:26:21 -0000 --000000000000ead6e705cd4a814f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, but especially Lars, On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 7:44 AM Lucas Pardue wrote: > > > On Fri, 1 Oct 2021, 07:25 Lars Eggert, wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < >> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >> > The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic". I expect >> this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename is >> "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in >> https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7, and it is related to >> the QUIC working group. >> > >> > The second and third document filenames start with >> "draft-dawkins-sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as >> related to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion >> on the MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I understand >> the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are actually >> out of scope for the QUIC working group. >> > >> > Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking >> for any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position? >> >> IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the >> QUIC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting >> QUIC-related I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we >> hence didn't learn about until (sometimes much) later. >> >> Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "manage >> document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this. >> > > I've become accustomed to the behaviour now. To my mind out of scope for a > charter doesn't mean unrelated. I think the datatracker does a decent job > with tags that it can let us clearly mark drafts that are serious > contenders for adoption vs other more tangential things. > > If there's a problem that the current pattern causes then we can have a > discussion but otherwise I'd leave it as is. > Thanks for helping me understand - and I feel much better about asking this question in my original post: >From the "Spencer is not the center of the universe" department, is it reasonable to list individual drafts as "related", if the filename includes the working group name in any position? If so, maybe that just needs to be documented someplace (it doesn't look like https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines has been updated since Russ Housley was IETF Chair), and I should be aware of that when choosing filenames. It looks like the current behavior in some working groups is actually MORE helpful than what I thought the datatracker-wide behavior was - and I didn't know that the behavior wasn't datatracker-wide, either.(*) So, no, please don't change the behavior just to match https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines! You guys are Doing The Right Thing. (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice - the only problem I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I knew where my drafts would appear, but I was wrong. Best, Spencer (*) I've been co-chair for something like 5 working groups, but 4 of them were before the datatracker had significant support for working group chairs, and (as Lars noted) ADs don't see the "manage document list" button, so I COMPLETELY missed that I have access to https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/documents/manage/. Seriously, thanks for catching me up. And everyone who knows me, knows that "catching Spencer up" is a full-time job ... --000000000000ead6e705cd4a814f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All, but especially Lars,=C2=A0
On Fr= i, Oct 1, 2021 at 7:44 AM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:


On Fri, 1 Oct = 2021, 07:25 Lars Eggert, <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-10-1, at 1:59, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkin= s.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> The first document filename starts with "draft-dawkins-quic"= . I expect this one to be listed as a related Internet-Draft. The filename = is "draft-author-wgname-*", as suggested for Internet-Drafts in <= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines/#7" rel=3D"noreferr= er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guideli= nes/#7, and it is related to the QUIC working group.
>
> The second and third document filenames start with "draft-dawkins= -sdp-rtp-quic". I wasn't expecting to see these listed as related = to the QUIC working group. These drafts are intended for discussion on the = MOQ ("Media Over QUIC'') non-WG mailing list, and (if I unders= tand the guidance I've gotten from the TSV and ART ADs correctly) are a= ctually out of scope for the QUIC working group.
>
> Is it possible that the datatracker is scanning the filename looking f= or any occurrence of a working group name, not just in the third position?<= br>
IIRC, when I was a QUIC co-chair, I manually tweaked the pattern for the QU= IC WG in the datatracker settings, because people were submitting QUIC-rela= ted I-Ds that were not showing up on our datatracker page and we hence didn= 't learn about until (sometimes much) later.

Since I'm not a co-chair anymore, I don't have access to the "= manage document list" button anymore, so I can't verify this.
<= /blockquote>

I'= ;ve become accustomed to the behaviour now. To my mind out of scope for a c= harter doesn't mean unrelated. I think the datatracker does a decent jo= b with tags that it can let us clearly mark drafts that are serious contend= ers for adoption vs other more tangential things.
If there's a problem that the current pattern= causes then we can have a discussion but otherwise I'd leave it as is.=

Thanks for helping me understa= nd - and I feel much better about asking this question in my original post:=

From the "Spencer is n= ot the center of the universe" department, is it reasonable to list in= dividual drafts as "related", if the filename includes the workin= g group name in any position? If so, maybe that just needs to be documented= someplace (it doesn't look like https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines has b= een updated since Russ Housley was IETF Chair), and I should be aware of th= at when choosing filenames.=C2=A0

It looks like the current behavior in som= e working groups is actually MORE helpful than what I thought the datatrack= er-wide behavior was - and I didn't know that the behavior wasn't d= atatracker-wide, either.(*)

So, no, please don'= ;t change the behavior just to match=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines!= You guys are Doing The Right Thing.=C2=A0

(this i= s the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update=C2=A0https://www.ietf.or= g/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice - the only problem= I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the Principle of Leas= t Astonishment. I thought I knew where=C2=A0my drafts would appear, but I w= as wrong.=C2=A0

Best,

Spe= ncer

=C2=A0(*) I've been co-chair for somethin= g like 5 working groups, but 4 of them were before the datatracker had sign= ificant support for working group chairs, and (as Lars noted) ADs don't= see the "manage document list" button, so I COMPLETELY missed th= at I have access to https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/cellar/documents/manage/.= Seriously, thanks for catching me up. And everyone who knows me, knows tha= t "catching Spencer up" is a full-time job ...=C2=A0
<= /div> --000000000000ead6e705cd4a814f-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 06:35:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5E33A0B70; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:35:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RAran7A0Fzk2; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 967363A0B8D; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 06:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id b8so398602edk.2; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:35:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p4VaY67TtrmWzrSoMs+ID17DAmAKODWEDhmnrEspYiU=; b=XfSa5fT0CgJUXzO1zbmvqNA09ctjC/E2W5+JWdcbspnR2qSGp1l/exuMZWn7b7frZL B7prr8201t50RN4TU8Gb20i0do2rjgug2g37fS0kG8vAfK6jYqOfVvcKmSGSPpV57Av2 lGvrN6jrFn7qX6OqGBNTTpKc6RlQjj5OBc463AIaqf9V+Z+E9FIUFisrKcBf4GfNkjXV EbBScrevhQfjTl96fwBp7y+1iZV4aATYMAwZSz7FxPrgtVesi3YvDqulhLFKLVzUqU8D cMCsNcB3ADfOIQOw5B+5fwDMvg58I/k8WcpcH2xfNKmJIW2akaip1a5oUORNBwHeYLxB 63Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p4VaY67TtrmWzrSoMs+ID17DAmAKODWEDhmnrEspYiU=; b=GDRtdftR3xLHNWPna8J67Pt37ZL4mGd6g+JgwLFyhToicnRFPgUVmTcqEkOyiL1X6p twOrbrmOpVnJ/XUQaVtlvhdO74ShMZYVIh9a4e90iCBcKFM6GLZUMnmqUNLyeEYghXyi jQTyDRDQUi0mVEpf1nzARkOhcCqwDpSaVGdxWqYHbTo7tVTlmjDYjJ/fiO4HThBEiy2U UgA1tIHSeDXJMNJ4M4DvZzYl9j/oq7qaHw/qJ/ktYwnnevvQl7oPFPKgxU6lgRvJZO+c XxCo2477ri1tffh8HUiyDOfclYPCX+yaVXtRer5N9MW5O8jGZ2uS9m2aCTm6Igpp8dko 4jFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532VQVhDhxdOZ6K3kiYtFzYwhQYnPRG/ACsy7pRzc9y9VzUQh/V5 YrBDS0axUVuFOibDw2ZDDY39ipbAu6IDtT9TIks= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzLdyBM168STg8U8l0KTgpn1eJoLMNgEQlc77Cznmm6HjOL0wDF0qEEb9K7Wcu3/MZA5slYg/HuZUIrRxTk5o8= X-Received: by 2002:a50:cf86:: with SMTP id h6mr14433950edk.104.1633095329192; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 06:35:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 14:35:17 +0100 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Lars Eggert , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb1f6605cd4aa227" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:35:37 -0000 --000000000000fb1f6605cd4aa227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 2:26 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear All, but especially Lars, > > > > It looks like the current behavior in some working groups is actually MORE > helpful than what I thought the datatracker-wide behavior was - and I > didn't know that the behavior wasn't datatracker-wide, either.(*) > > So, no, please don't change the behavior just to match > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines! You guys are Doing The > Right Thing. > In the interest of sharing, QUIC's manage page has the 5 following rules set * All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-[a-za-z0-9]+-quic-.+ * All I-Ds associated with a particular group - quic * All RFCs associated with a particular group - quic * All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-[^-]+-quic- * All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-.+-quic($|-.+) I won't take the credit for these and I daren't touch them in case the house of cards comes tumbling down. But it seems to me the default rules "associated with a particular group" are dead simple, and the datatracker provides enough regex freedom to tinker away. Cheers, Lucas --000000000000fb1f6605cd4aa227 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 2:26 PM Spencer Da= wkins at IETF <spencerd= awkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All, but especi= ally Lars,=C2=A0

<snip>

It looks like the current behavior in some= working groups is actually MORE helpful than what I thought the datatracke= r-wide behavior was - and I didn't know that the behavior wasn't da= tatracker-wide, either.(*)

So, no, please don'= t change the behavior just to match=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/standards/id= s/guidelines! You guys are Doing The Right Thing.

=C2=A0In the interest of sharing, QUIC= 9;s manage page has the 5 following rules set

* All I-Ds with partic= ular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-[a-za-z0-9]+-quic-.+
=
* All I-Ds associated with a particular group - quic
*= All RFCs associated with a particular group - quic
* All I-Ds with part= icular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-[^-]+-quic-
*= All I-Ds with particular text/regular expression in the name - ^draft-.+-q= uic($|-.+)

I won't take the credit for these and I da= ren't touch them in case the house of cards comes tumbling down. But it= seems to me the default rules "associated with a particular group&quo= t; are dead simple, and the datatracker provides enough regex freedom to ti= nker away.

Cheers,
Lucas
<= /div>
--000000000000fb1f6605cd4aa227-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 08:35:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACDD3A0CA9; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XBlesXfW-kQQ; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 468A93A10CE; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s24so11868332oij.8; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:34:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=syDPPzF6VAd9sID+TZWrldGGB/A/1ioMFaEkmD/0HQ0=; b=O9ozQazYePcAxHesf7RVN6iGqVS+12edIP6e0Bff3X2MPm7XuJS4b0k17wh/WdC0nP sFT2FovkqL9A9wG90URnYg0V1FWfx3hExIl4HDNDJNn1BvqzntT6vPz0zfAMHWcoIJGM HJEhYflUG+hq9booEFv1z2VpnXO4/AvFPOWzIRIuZnDRoFo2qlXBNN7BsmRii9n2svex teJHfQcmkpkBTm0DKLvGXOS23lWe0Wre1IRzkvFpI1HpTqvWHPfBIXNp6lkTQs3DoJpk pCLt/DCaEsP2OyStFsn0vN39P4f7OGXuqKowNrcUCmJFjILd/k4caNOTdlObNWv6WuCa QbkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=syDPPzF6VAd9sID+TZWrldGGB/A/1ioMFaEkmD/0HQ0=; b=XITZffnUOh6YRwd6YVwLRYTeJ9bNlaZHLKsQQqLSTvn+s1DwzLDRysaQ16Z0KUYYEX c14qVshXS6vac6qUw1LiVaYGBf7dNs5Zr5LnpTmHYFipnmzzZFcOmwowu/guyz6UDT+q 4oSmgEK2zuONXpLMUze8ICqx89jeGFBC9UZhT/PchDNDLLkHAvHQcN1bgxOF3EKLln/s 2hKpU3fbKFKD+J0OuoMjwkQz+UzeeT4pSCaW20yV8LRlPO/NCKjxvXswD+x2HcT62NCB xsGT/xhuyDdloLhWLqfXB4/8fDGdFvpYs4ZEaeGL0yfRQqcLnMIM/nLVdyxbEqOry8Q6 FDTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531guf+3k1RPXVC9quAyvqgB4Z29RdnFIlHFsD3x3rQcTcN5vxqx hhlAfx2OPREqXYNIDJlPDSs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwhvjpwUSwgDDhddkrPlL1kNLJiJZyqpkSw/VPWIPDaigKdRD8wO168YEJSdx3rb8KkqGsA+w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:17a4:: with SMTP id bg36mr4500535oib.49.1633102473138; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:9110:5eca:65b3:f5f4? ([2601:647:5a00:659:9110:5eca:65b3:f5f4]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o8sm1258095otk.76.2021.10.01.08.34.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Oct 2021 08:34:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <8755D1AF-5129-41B8-911B-BDD906E93A10@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8C5DACEB-D0B3-458C-B114-9B197F152492"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 08:34:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Lucas Pardue , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 15:35:08 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8C5DACEB-D0B3-458C-B114-9B197F152492 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Spencer, > On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=A6. > So, no, please don't change the behavior just to match = https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines! You guys are Doing The = Right Thing. +1 >=20 > (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update = https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice = - the only problem I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the = Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I knew where my drafts would = appear, but I was wrong. >=20 I would have thought it is a good thing that anything related to QUIC = showed up on the list of related drafts, even if the QUIC w.g. isn=E2=80=99= t actively working on them. It allows people in the w.g. to follow = other things related to QUIC. Bob --Apple-Mail=_8C5DACEB-D0B3-458C-B114-9B197F152492 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFXKoYACgkQrut0EXfn u6i0oAf9GoSVoWHI/BODpJPR5mw9/3VgbarA8PDNyl3L8pWh80h+hip8T7wtut6Y /Kwr1iRtqhXsJ+e2rOpfXQSOOrfAW3g17tOr0GFHwmc+rhjmnse1Oq6WA4DCtJZZ eRXggIS7SW40WOHfslzHzVaLhhNAaHYNlG5vkfO31lc9g7WWj853wqq6In6hKODk qIO/fUqSwgQeV+5hcJ0alul+eERVdBbsPZM40vxBd/2UmQmYb88SJsGuTo1M/pVl TjRIioancAGEeImeKU+RU9AosVq1UQpMpLG/KpiRbAuuhUQnTTVR/MyiYaju9E0N tipfaWWLbmaxPEbZmkYinjHREq+KHA== =VE2H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8C5DACEB-D0B3-458C-B114-9B197F152492-- From nobody Fri Oct 1 10:01:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4BF3A0E21; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:01:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZW3hKzgWVHIm; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C13763A0E1C; Fri, 1 Oct 2021 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id x1so12092197vsp.12; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ApUta37uQ4lmMig6/JHUd/gh16A7e1BiTvtdyJYxx1Y=; b=c6N96yY59wzW0JVz7LFSlD2rhbjZrwAdq62qH+ybTQrftf7+2QjUPc1vfpY/T1759U 4BTkS3zuGLERzOEqLHxaSyWwrGpqVUbNZLVKPwLUOuUmArvj4xGo/YS7YrSxiSl3Tzaz YwLFnYYcNdra2c6dhZrHm3kiPGSlpm5B3inhUMs+83dJQrwBM5yceW9Y6OXDpgVr7O7x o8j6UFOMhcwdnCGZomZg3qbeCRiLUYg+7bOIsSD+Pggod/+aObIQS3ewXeh9Q0DUHG2Z lMVmC8uhnCOIdfF0zCLRLCn62faFaQKep5+zchZfA9f8163fvpMEju0frTta04ELm+l+ OtIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ApUta37uQ4lmMig6/JHUd/gh16A7e1BiTvtdyJYxx1Y=; b=MNejigVgYgD6xy9Iu2X9mb8Ef0PCm5ZcH5TXxYskFMqGO5i77iQUUg6hQvRaNxbrM8 htSQnkcLXslCVCR+UK+TbK67a35ZIQSZALREsVreODiVHf1gyBVIc57f/2xUW8M7Htm9 bEY39ctbwRprdbecqwteyJAnuEQQogBJFSENUGtVOtq3YkQuGPpaQE+HM1aiSXd3Dc0K rH+NnCiG5I1eCYgGcIN2cFXBuWV12an7SN7NabmIqZm19JNxeBGv3USJw/B2cakONRxM nzqorPzlmSIRG7cVfe8ddz8woy9fgZgEDk6A0/cBL1W1s2xQ56ktvOxVWVPQYEbXCI8F 7pUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530O2MKqydZe0HUHBf+v8Bhhtj1gEQSldVFp81Gaj5Yqi9zsur2e 8SlYcVBAkE3m7F8G6nhTxgM+09fZEB9gNO0+N9Re2nZCyRw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzntaVJeMj+2FbDPlxPtqg9Mcrw+410Z7RXQhq/jtLILfseapeMXiMB6XVJM8KFv0an1qCFVlmrp3cILPNCJro= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e916:: with SMTP id c22mr5184901vso.1.1633107695497; Fri, 01 Oct 2021 10:01:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8755D1AF-5129-41B8-911B-BDD906E93A10@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8755D1AF-5129-41B8-911B-BDD906E93A10@gmail.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 12:01:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: Lucas Pardue , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000011f46405cd4d8465" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2021 17:01:43 -0000 --00000000000011f46405cd4d8465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Bob, On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:34 AM Bob Hinden wrote: > Spencer, > > > On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > =E2=80=A6. > > So, no, please don't change the behavior just to match > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines! You guys are Doing The > Right Thing. > > +1 > > > > > (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice - > the only problem I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the > Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I knew where my drafts would > appear, but I was wrong. > > > > I would have thought it is a good thing that anything related to QUIC > showed up on the list of related drafts, even if the QUIC w.g. isn=E2=80= =99t > actively working on them. It allows people in the w.g. to follow other > things related to QUIC. Oh, I'm convinced. I have https://github.com/ietf/id-guidelines open in another window, to add an issue to describe this evolved behavior, after lunch. Best, Spencer p.s. QUIC may be a special case, but it doesn't seem to be THAT special ... --00000000000011f46405cd4d8465 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Bob,=C2=A0

On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:3= 4 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Spencer,

> On Oct 1, 2021, at 6:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>
> =E2=80=A6.
> So, no, please don't change the behavior just to match https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines! You guys are Do= ing The Right Thing.

+1

>
> (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to up= date https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines = to match current practice - the only problem I'm seeing is that the cur= rent behavior violates the Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I kne= w where my drafts would appear, but I was wrong.
>

I would have thought it is a good thing that anything related to QUIC showe= d up on the list of related drafts, even if the QUIC w.g. isn=E2=80=99t act= ively working on them.=C2=A0 It allows people in the w.g. to follow other t= hings related to QUIC.

Oh, I'm convince= d. I have=C2=A0https://gi= thub.com/ietf/id-guidelines open in another window, to add an issue to = describe this evolved behavior, after lunch.

Best,=

Spencer

p.s. QUIC may be= a special case, but it doesn't seem to be THAT special ...=C2=A0
=
--00000000000011f46405cd4d8465-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 00:47:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5121C3A1234; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2lmhIpGh-qgp; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 783133A1221; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 00:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:69b3:c516:5316:3e6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71F92600354; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:47:19 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1633333639; bh=ENKLux8BZRLDSWBg73bizqoyLZRWE3Z9N3IIUdVbkHo=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=zSUtd4DL2FaflD4UUEtG1sIrVxQ7b2s/FMu5S3P/+hGwdg6Nc6aYOGG6Qw/1f3sTM q2tZSzrA1vez/0JpGJec93y83u1mAPPzGvX4gWmK8Qt/vfi6+rpA4Hnp23tUq3kr2Q mKQfZ2j5HVCT1jbN43ml/6XnUiTJgfl9DFspcdr4= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FFEC402A-6B3C-4AFB-8BD8-E3C81F4810BB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 10:47:18 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Lucas Pardue , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF References: X-MailScanner-ID: 71F92600354.A1287 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:47:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FFEC402A-6B3C-4AFB-8BD8-E3C81F4810BB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-10-1, at 16:25, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = wrote: > (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update = https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice = - the only problem I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the = Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I knew where my drafts would = appear, but I was wrong. I think POLA would be violated if draft-foor-bar-topic didn't show up as = related to the BAR WG - but it does. If *other* WGs also choose to manually add draft-foor-bar-topic to their = list of related documents, maybe because "topic" is of interest to them, = that should not really cause much astonishment, IMO. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_FFEC402A-6B3C-4AFB-8BD8-E3C81F4810BB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFasYYACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeNGg//R+1HaASqGirS/ALlSshLt9xqFJ5UOCBGSk6B5O2IYHJ33g16X898LdVJ vOiwzyS7YJyZkLPth4HuqlnUAEqTlEfFVPpa3T19m+MXo7UBwJ4c54lQdzhyyLaD i2GVNWPPxrriDeTW4LC4txpunCpf3A4DekenX/8xLKnA3Kl4rNcHaSHJhgvM64G8 VR+UhLqzzYp/NPw4w/VdJvQ3DVPjTh+63ieyWuwjAiaL57sf8+NJSgxS/BUXzuz+ rbxF8/S9slNoAdVByd5Hq4PaWK2ZTJ+MozegTcTUYw1zVtzPlWuAthLGmQZ+J5yk g0te34SA1qbKcKd6z8TvGxr+3aHn9Z2JXja/bDawQ9fzaxxozPqtCmvoyPfUusHD 9FeJLBoZbLnhBOUe2xknCEeSEDZoTp1RD7SjecyyZ+/L/XYRvXvLgqFCOqXOzwnF 0sQonpkxNYlwnHkT5JIW0GjVpTJ/Wz//Eu9YjCZ2Az2BabcjPeMbpm61kaKh8/At 7f/ouOfiP0o9V0u6HRsRhNhixxbgqtWjsbyw7RWcIZemBt/MrsVlhnOwGVSTW8JK dhuteGjyYUwzHkS27DwzYZZZZ6/K1n/R6VtQzwTMq+73zmSQjs5qB0i6BrPXOtQt ORjZoMSVRvOc4JU5NPFaF91EPdyen+ncLGSen/6brlFko14M3E0= =H+qF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FFEC402A-6B3C-4AFB-8BD8-E3C81F4810BB-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 07:34:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C496A3A0817; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3gc5KXCLm74H; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F9103A0803; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 07:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2d.google.com with SMTP id z202so7758881vkd.1; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:34:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GP43pqbqQPoWtoaokED+oVA0FK1Nr9jaaGUyhIumabE=; b=QaCqJXbPerfTAO4kREadGheaI4caE1uSDj76y2MqYhTNbH5KuyFtuRU7ZOpJPiaxD7 P1I+JjuMiNGSa8ldgsmjS3nujMfOGvbluY5gcFfG+DzUh4tQgBg3cPkzDCXJiNXwvVaU eZCUO+Yx37+bD0VnCgCfIDDrDKguKpM2gqlaFQbkRXhxXz5D3XFjz284/y4TbtvlCgg6 7VkE5U3meSCGCQ9YyzNalGIQvxOkEKECfTB/38YkZC0AEYtbM8GNvw2dkWgL+p+y8LgB Gf8wiza9jpYjgdKk5iu4jO0jlWQS+OcD6EPbFJtb9FhtQAbTNfHHyX2B4W1JIp/ZTBPq 5d7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GP43pqbqQPoWtoaokED+oVA0FK1Nr9jaaGUyhIumabE=; b=ci7tekIdqndgB9bmngyoFI2KnoKPNrzHb85kXhXw9Sv7TeIFBEcqAm4PtHKuCER7fX 1GBML1TkRa4EYnB8DnKpJfIL1ceX9zyxOSMXroy84xMntEZ3c6sOE76OmE+V82mino+E LSvsmiLgPbVFLiK/2m+ZqGnIIWiB/KA/0XKxfvUhfieih9YeYW7Z7LwTeyDHMNyVosKe F86gEuJy9ouOmBd2Btb1dqJeXEOaBuPSFgu+4SxpHXmAb0H8BioUr4FBvtn3GRsQEcvF gBmXRyBdHp5OeII880n95RDlqt3HtIJnkFHy//+nPZGL9XCPGhYaEDbyxaJxw/bMmZp3 E0iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531pdHR5sQsm5d3DD5lAqsqImG2huGrXtRLm0RrwYwbgwz85Ui91 hvNNgjtCe0Jy7+2Ze1CbyJecvpWn1aYR7Xw2wVeONHvhHD8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7O6sNB/+XQgL3MPWjeaSvUD3X75lSmEiIhSPL4uAYnEkxicesf0t9YMOu91L6rQfkbPuNaasCQ9aef3C3OaE= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:a00e:: with SMTP id j14mr2229136vke.5.1633358071222; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 07:34:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:34:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lars Eggert Cc: Lucas Pardue , Tools Team Discussion , WG Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0587905cd87cfd0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] "Distantly related Internet-Drafts"? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 14:34:38 -0000 --000000000000a0587905cd87cfd0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Lars, On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:47 AM Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-10-1, at 16:25, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to update > https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines to match current practice - > the only problem I'm seeing is that the current behavior violates the > Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I knew where my drafts would > appear, but I was wrong. > > I think POLA would be violated if draft-foor-bar-topic didn't show up as > related to the BAR WG - but it does. > > If *other* WGs also choose to manually add draft-foor-bar-topic to their > list of related documents, maybe because "topic" is of interest to them, > that should not really cause much astonishment, IMO. > You're correct that it's not the Principle of What Least Astonishes Spencer (POWLAS), and that's probably a good thing, but *I* was astonished that my draft popped up on the QUIC datatracker document page, for what that's worth. And if there's any way for me to find out what groups might also list my draft as "related", I don't know what that way is. Thank you for the helpful discussion in https://github.com/ietf/id-guidelines/issues/52, but I noted your comment there: I also think that we already encode way too much information into draft names, using a pretty arcane format, and encoding more information will be even more confusing, esp. to newcomers. I'd definitely agree with you there - I'm replying here, just to say that more publicly - but I wonder what a better way to provide this information would be, and (especially) whether authors providing more/better information in a less arcane format would be worthwhile for at least some working groups, that are not named for the protocol(s) they are responsible for. But that's a better question for chairs of working groups like MMUSIC, AVTCORE, 6MAN, and TSVWG (off the top of my head), and this thread has popped up on WGCHAIRS, so the right people can be thinking about that. I know everyone will Do The Right Thing, of course. Best, Spencer > Thanks, > Lars > > --000000000000a0587905cd87cfd0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Lars,

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:47 AM L= ars Eggert <lars@eg= gert.org> wrote:
Hi,

On 2021-10-1, at 16:25, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> (this is the "Lars" part) But it might be a good thing to up= date https://www.ietf.org/standards/ids/guidelines = to match current practice - the only problem I'm seeing is that the cur= rent behavior violates the Principle of Least Astonishment. I thought I kne= w where my drafts would appear, but I was wrong.

I think POLA would be violated if draft-foor-bar-topic didn't show up a= s related to the BAR WG - but it does.

If *other* WGs also choose to manually add draft-foor-bar-topic to their li= st of related documents, maybe because "topic" is of interest to = them, that should not really cause much astonishment, IMO.
=

You're correct=C2=A0that it's not the Principle= of What Least Astonishes Spencer (POWLAS), and that's probably a good = thing, but *I* was astonished that my draft popped up on the QUIC datatrack= er document page, for what that's worth. And if there's any way for= me to find out what groups might also list my draft as "related"= , I don't know what that way is.=C2=A0

Thank y= ou for the helpful discussion in=C2=A0https://github.com/ietf/id-guidelines/issues/52,= but I noted your comment there:

=
I also think that we already encode way too much information into draf= t names, using a pretty arcane format, and encoding more information will b= e even more confusing, esp. to newcomers.
=
I'd definitely agree with you there - I'm replying here, = just to say that more publicly - but I wonder what a better way to provide = this information would be, and (especially) whether authors providing more/= better information in a less arcane format would be worthwhile for at least= some working groups, that are not named for the protocol(s) they are respo= nsible for.

But that's a better question for ch= airs of working groups like MMUSIC, AVTCORE, 6MAN, and TSVWG (off the top o= f my head), and this thread has popped up on WGCHAIRS, so the right people = can be thinking about that.=C2=A0

I know everyone = will Do The Right Thing, of course.=C2=A0

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
Thanks,
Lars

--000000000000a0587905cd87cfd0-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:17:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B7C73A08C4; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:17:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vDwvlJyBYmMX; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C94C83A08C1; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gFWE3DFStF8EjPfNfdDd72JA+f5KpAnUse9pSGskMEE=; b=kPg5Y8K2YtPE16dPFBZaxcy8Da bOg0On2/BGI9g0YySHh+rrPwrEqS/6Q4dJ8QqXTLo/Imse3r7AdHvbHug+it9zcjolbfc01nTDf1A S6cM7yPgJzvDOnz7YwTKi4oiRQ0Y9unKPH2kLwCO4MZiv3dXk6BG/4uanqJzI4hW1hFGOaCM/Lyu3 ZZ7Oiw9RFj6O6lp4I/bo8K7YTmoF5pZ7ry5r8s97tM7NIMzNILLPHKbkRKkf0eqPSCA6ktlJRfZz7 3xUDY8mYB9lvYxVjdBd4uA1Fittu6Qzu2t6kBGdvBRoJIPztu1vhxYkmreQ0uuAcOYxicQ7SVcpBe fXQnvwgg==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:43156 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXPiK-009NVC-IZ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 16:17:10 +0100 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:17:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:17:17 -0000 Hi, Can anyone recommend an XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3 and is (roughly) WYSIWYG? I've just tried (2nd attempt) to switch to v3 xml2rfc. In the 1st attempt, a bug held me back. Now the bug is fixed (thank you to those who helped), but I might still have to stick at v2 xml2rfc because for me the benefits of v3 xml2rfc are not worth a regression to editing XML in a plain text editor. I find I can write much clearer documents with a WYSIWIG editor. When I convert one of my drafts from v2 to v3 and load it into XMLMind with Bill Fenner's excellent xml2rfc plugin{1} it throws up 219 warnings, and the content is now WYSIPMU (What you see is pretty much unreadable), because all the x-refs and sections headings are littered with pulldown menus and warning text. Alternatively, @Jay, did you publish the results of your survey of draft editing tools that you were talking about at the end of 2020 on this list? That would give me an idea of how others edit their XML. (BTW, I don't particularly want to switch to editing markdown right now, given I have a large number of drafts in the late stage of their lives, so the pain of fixing all the little niggles translating .xml to .md and back again is likely to be high.) Cheers Bob {1} Maintained most recently by Warren Kumari, for which many thanks. PS. I have the latest version of the xml2rfc plugin (0.8.5) for XMLMind which is supported by XMLMind v9+ (I am using v9.3). -- -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:26:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F223A08D6; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:26:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c1iNCIr0A8VK; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E65E93A0835; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNPgn37M1z2xNV; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:26:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:26:13 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Jay Daley X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 655053972.645834-792562dafc528660dff139e072953ead Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> References: To: Bob Briscoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:26:22 -0000 On 2021-10-04, at 17:17, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > v3 xml2rfc The RNC used to be at = http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc You=E2=80=99ll have to make sure your tool is up to date with that = (trivial with emacs nxml-mode=E2=80=A6). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 4 08:35:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044353A08FA; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Pkf_GYZzv0N; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE4473A091F; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 08:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HNPtL5mJYz2xK5; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:35:22 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:35:22 +0200 Cc: Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 655054522.297429-89f666944989122a65ab3988f7acf233 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> To: Bob Briscoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 15:35:31 -0000 On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > The RNC used to be at >=20 > = http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc =E2=80=A6 and now at: https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Oct 4 09:57:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9FB3A0966; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocSBLjtGO166; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 330A63A0965; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:57:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=EEOAly9pQa+dFw9GV72ILogndIRkgqe89hobok2HzD4=; b=O2NOwDtTd0+OHbDrntDC+P2fYn VtMwfExVnQcJWLhWvcJTDbew0j4uQKD4Lkl4PylnlVxNrMgRkIDjTVWRBUkb66ol/gB/E+XIHzsE/ Vsp40Bf5AwVANkWM1a3lWjKiF3gEgwE6jZIeBcNSdAPz9eVQO4ukeLgRYiQs/SFg59ZJ8jvzAeZ4z cEls4m/vcEUTbdrdUcssF2hpNdDd5WVR5j58V03Bqu9P9bFdYRcDRMbvkYVRUv0RdCN5qkrHPD1s/ 9VRYkZYM+07uLBswZhpj8jAwECMdfLIzwb+kXbMXdI75HUlJ623ieRweSn8oaQO0CxB7f8TkbNMjl xv+0JufA==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:59700 helo=[192.168.1.13]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXRHS-00AzzJ-SX; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 17:57:33 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 17:57:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 16:57:41 -0000 Carsten, I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one. I've found this: https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf But I only understand about half the words. Bob On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> The RNC used to be at >> >> http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc > … and now at: > > https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc > > Grüße, Carsten > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Mon Oct 4 11:28:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF2A3A0ABD for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rtian3hYphP for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 445FE3A0958 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001204112A76; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xQ3xYUBEfiqd; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2D3F4112A6E; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 11:28:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 07:28:11 +1300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss To: Bob Briscoe References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 18:28:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Bob > On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > Carsten, >=20 > I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it = up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one. Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and = XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions = if your document specifies an RNC grammar. The full list of editors is = those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" in = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors That table also = lists all that have WYSIWYG support. >=20 > I've found this: = https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf > But I only understand about half the words. To enable the RNC you should replace the line: with these lines: and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source = file. =20 (For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version from = https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar renamed) Jay --Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=rfc2629-xhtml.ent Content-Type: application/octet-stream; x-unix-mode=0644; name="rfc2629-xhtml.ent" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=rfc7991bis.rnc Content-Type: application/octet-stream; x-unix-mode=0644; name="rfc7991bis.rnc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit namespace a = "http://relaxng.org/ns/compatibility/annotations/1.0" # xml2rfc Version 3 grammar rfc = element rfc { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute number { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute obsoletes { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute updates { text }?, attribute category { "std" | "bcp" | "exp" | "info" | "historic" }?, attribute mode { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute consensus { "no" | "yes" | "false" | "true" }?, attribute seriesNo { text }?, attribute ipr { text }?, attribute iprExtract { xsd:IDREF }?, [ a:defaultValue = "IETF" ] attribute submissionType { "IETF" | "IAB" | "IRTF" | "independent" }?, attribute docName { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute sortRefs { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute symRefs { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute tocInclude { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "3" ] attribute tocDepth { text }?, attribute prepTime { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute indexInclude { "true" | "false" }?, attribute version { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "Common,Latin" ] attribute scripts { text }?, attribute expiresDate { text }?, link*, front, middle, back? } link = element link { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute href { text }, attribute rel { text }? } front = element front { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, title, seriesInfo*, author+, date?, area*, workgroup*, keyword*, abstract?, note*, boilerplate?, toc? } title = element title { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute abbrev { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, (text | br)* } author = element author { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute initials { text }?, attribute asciiInitials { text }?, attribute surname { text }?, attribute asciiSurname { text }?, attribute fullname { text }?, attribute role { "editor" }?, attribute asciiFullname { text }?, organization?, address? } contact = element contact { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute initials { text }?, attribute asciiInitials { text }?, attribute surname { text }?, attribute asciiSurname { text }?, attribute fullname { text }?, attribute asciiFullname { text }?, organization?, address? } organization = element organization { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute abbrev { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, attribute asciiAbbrev { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute showOnFrontPage { "true" | "false" }?, text } address = element address { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, postal?, phone?, facsimile?, email*, uri? } postal = element postal { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (( city | cityarea | code | country | extaddr | pobox | region | sortingcode | street)* | postalLine+) } extaddr = element extaddr { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } pobox = element pobox { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } street = element street { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } cityarea = element cityarea { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } city = element city { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } region = element region { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } code = element code { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } sortingcode = element sortingcode { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } country = element country { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } postalLine = element postalLine { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } phone = element phone { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } facsimile = element facsimile { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } email = element email { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute ascii { text }?, text } uri = element uri { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } date = element date { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute day { text }?, attribute month { text }?, attribute year { text }?, text } area = element area { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } workgroup = element workgroup { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } keyword = element keyword { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } abstract = element abstract { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (dl | ol | t | ul)+ } note = element note { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute title { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute removeInRFC { "true" | "false" }?, name?, (dl | ol | t | ul)+ } boilerplate = element boilerplate { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, section+ } toc = element toc { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, section* } middle = element middle { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, section+ } section = element section { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, attribute title { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute numbered { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "default" ] attribute toc { "include" | "exclude" | "default" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute removeInRFC { "true" | "false" }?, name?, (artset | artwork | aside | author | blockquote | contact | dl | figure | iref | ol | sourcecode | t | table | texttable | ul)*, section* } name = element name { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute slugifiedName { xsd:ID }?, (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } br = element br { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, empty } t = element t { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, attribute hangText { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "0" ] attribute indent { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute keepWithNext { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute keepWithPrevious { "true" | "false" }?, (text | bcp14 | br | contact | cref | em | eref | iref | \list | relref | spanx | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | vspace | xref)* } aside = element aside { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (artset | artwork | blockquote | dl | figure | iref | ol | t | table | ul)* } blockquote = element blockquote { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, attribute cite { text }?, attribute quotedFrom { text }?, ((artset | artwork | dl | figure | ol | sourcecode | t | ul)+ | (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)+) } \list = element list { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "empty" ] attribute style { text }?, attribute hangIndent { text }?, attribute counter { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, t+ } ol = element ol { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute type { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute start { text }?, attribute group { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "normal" ] attribute spacing { "normal" | "compact" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "adaptive" ] attribute indent { text | "adaptive" }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, li+ } ul = element ul { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "normal" ] attribute spacing { "normal" | "compact" }?, ([ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute empty { "true" | "false" }, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute bare { "true" | "false" }?)?, [ a:defaultValue = "3" ] attribute indent { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, li+ } li = element li { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute derivedCounter { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (( artset | artwork | blockquote | dl | figure | ol | sourcecode | t | table | ul)+ | (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)+) } dl = element dl { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "normal" ] attribute spacing { "normal" | "compact" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute newline { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "3" ] attribute indent { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (dt, dd)+ } dt = element dt { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } dd = element dd { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, (( artset | artwork | aside | dl | figure | ol | sourcecode | t | table | ul)+ | (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)+) } xref = element xref { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute target { xsd:IDREF }, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute pageno { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "default" ] attribute format { "default" | "title" | "counter" | "none" }?, attribute derivedContent { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "of" ] attribute sectionFormat { "of" | "comma" | "parens" | "bare" }?, attribute section { text }?, attribute relative { text }?, attribute derivedLink { text }?, (text | em | strong | sub | sup | tt)* } relref = element relref { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute target { xsd:IDREF }, [ a:defaultValue = "of" ] attribute displayFormat { "of" | "comma" | "parens" | "bare" }?, attribute derivedContent { text }?, attribute section { text }, attribute relative { text }?, attribute derivedLink { text }?, text } eref = element eref { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "none" ] attribute brackets { "none" | "angle" }?, attribute target { text }, text } iref = element iref { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute item { text }, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute subitem { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute primary { "true" | "false" }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, empty } cref = element cref { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute source { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute display { "true" | "false" }?, (text | br | em | eref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } tt = element tt { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | xref)* } strong = element strong { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } em = element em { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | br | cref | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } sub = element sub { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } sup = element sup { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | xref)* } spanx = element spanx { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "preserve" ] attribute xml:space { "default" | "preserve" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "emph" ] attribute style { text }?, text } vspace = element vspace { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "0" ] attribute blankLines { text }?, empty } figure = element figure { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute title { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute suppress-title { "true" | "false" }?, attribute src { text }?, attribute originalSrc { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "left" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute alt { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute width { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute height { text }?, name?, iref*, preamble?, (artset | artwork | sourcecode)+, postamble? } table = element table { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "center" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, name?, iref*, thead?, tbody+, tfoot? } preamble = element preamble { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | spanx | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)* } artset = element artset { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, artwork+ } artwork = element artwork { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, attribute xml:space { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute name { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute type { text }?, attribute src { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "left" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute alt { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute width { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute height { text }?, attribute originalSrc { text }?, (text* | svg) } include "SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc" sourcecode = element sourcecode { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute name { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute type { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute markers { "true" | "false" }?, attribute src { text }?, attribute originalSrc { text }?, text } thead = element thead { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, tr+ } tbody = element tbody { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, tr+ } tfoot = element tfoot { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, tr+ } tr = element tr { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, (td | th)+ } td = element td { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute colspan { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute rowspan { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "left" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, ((artset | artwork | dl | figure | ol | sourcecode | t | ul)+ | (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)*) } th = element th { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute colspan { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "1" ] attribute rowspan { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "left" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, ((artset | artwork | dl | figure | ol | sourcecode | t | ul)+ | (text | bcp14 | br | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)*) } postamble = element postamble { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | cref | eref | iref | spanx | xref)* } texttable = element texttable { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, [ a:defaultValue = "" ] attribute title { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "false" ] attribute suppress-title { "true" | "false" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "center" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, [ a:defaultValue = "full" ] attribute style { "all" | "none" | "headers" | "full" }?, name?, preamble?, ttcol+, c*, postamble? } ttcol = element ttcol { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute width { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "left" ] attribute align { "left" | "center" | "right" }?, (cref | eref | iref | xref | text)* } c = element c { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | cref | eref | iref | spanx | xref)* } bcp14 = element bcp14 { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, text } back = element back { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, displayreference*, references*, section* } displayreference = element displayreference { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute target { xsd:IDREF }, attribute to { text } } references = element references { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute title { text }?, name?, (references+ | (reference | referencegroup)*) } reference = element reference { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }, attribute derivedAnchor { text }?, attribute target { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "true" ] attribute quoteTitle { "true" | "false" }?, attribute quote-title { "true" | "false" }?, stream?, front, (annotation | format | refcontent | seriesInfo)* } stream = element stream { ( "IETF" | "IAB" | "IRTF" | "independent" )? } referencegroup = element referencegroup { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute anchor { xsd:ID }, attribute derivedAnchor { text }?, attribute target { text }?, reference+ } seriesInfo = element seriesInfo { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute name { text }, attribute value { text }, attribute asciiName { text }?, attribute asciiValue { text }?, attribute status { text }?, attribute stream { "IETF" | "IAB" | "IRTF" | "independent" }?, empty } format = element format { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, attribute target { text }?, attribute type { text }, attribute octets { text }?, empty } annotation = element annotation { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | cref | em | eref | iref | relref | spanx | strong | sub | sup | tt | u | xref)* } refcontent = element refcontent { attribute xml:base { text }?, attribute xml:lang { text }?, (text | bcp14 | em | strong | sub | sup | tt)* } u = element u { attribute anchor { xsd:ID }?, attribute ascii { text }?, [ a:defaultValue = "lit-name-num" ] attribute format { text }?, attribute pn { xsd:ID }?, text } start |= rfc --Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 >=20 > Bob >=20 > On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> The RNC used to be at >>>=20 >>> = http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >> =E2=80=A6 and now at: >>=20 >> https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_D40EFBC8-A1E6-46C2-A516-B444DA92397E-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 13:30:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482A33A08FF for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8B1M5M0Nb9Cy for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AB393A0DB2 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0BA4112A5C; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RgWbAyU0Y-Ka; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8F5844112A5B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 13:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:30:08 +1300 Cc: tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B649905-6EFD-49F1-9060-98E3F9ABF14B@ietf.org> References: To: Bob Briscoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Results of authors survey (Was: WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 20:30:41 -0000 > On 5/10/2021, at 4:17 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Can anyone recommend an XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3 and is = (roughly) WYSIWYG? >=20 > I've just tried (2nd attempt) to switch to v3 xml2rfc. In the 1st = attempt, a bug held me back. Now the bug is fixed (thank you to those = who helped), but I might still have to stick at v2 xml2rfc because for = me the benefits of v3 xml2rfc are not worth a regression to editing XML = in a plain text editor. I find I can write much clearer documents with a = WYSIWIG editor. >=20 > When I convert one of my drafts from v2 to v3 and load it into XMLMind = with Bill Fenner's excellent xml2rfc plugin{1} it throws up 219 = warnings, and the content is now WYSIPMU (What you see is pretty much = unreadable), because all the x-refs and sections headings are littered = with pulldown menus and warning text. >=20 > Alternatively, @Jay, did you publish the results of your survey of = draft editing tools that you were talking about at the end of 2020 on = this list? That would give me an idea of how others edit their XML. Here it is: = https://www.ietf.org/blog/results-and-analysis-of-the-survey-of-i-d-author= s-on-formats-and-tools/ Jay >=20 > (BTW, I don't particularly want to switch to editing markdown right = now, given I have a large number of drafts in the late stage of their = lives, so the pain of fixing all the little niggles translating .xml to = .md and back again is likely to be high.) >=20 > Cheers >=20 >=20 > Bob >=20 > {1} Maintained most recently by Warren Kumari, for which many thanks. >=20 > PS. I have the latest version of the xml2rfc plugin (0.8.5) for = XMLMind which is supported by XMLMind v9+ (I am using v9.3). >=20 > --=20 >=20 > --=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Mon Oct 4 14:48:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9803A0C7B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIRRQc0EZdup; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C28EA3A0BF3; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 14:46:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:References:Cc:To:Subject:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LT+cvjpLM8SZIESk1LNq9RdK/5vfvD42MOyRroh/9H8=; b=HrUzGqfn/mehem3MiUU0CyXPxE Xd6VgYTxXB5U2zYsMuJRfFBUfy6nw0EVJEWwysqAv26JwqR4YjGjhyK+hMc6FiRzt2QpisJRDoqC+ lX+mjT1TDi8XyUFXSoXhiE2AlPf91ZYUr+cb6FRq+9o2q2bpGAWZOC+AQxCHsfqNoIOuryRO3y+hL 5HoQvm74egx/scp4u2nVb0gN5tVYQ59j6YE2U70GlPFqGxFgVCTkU9z7wDJhiv5GpSqqdnlvv+x3d PxsIFL/8+H4aRxqDoM3cR+s4f7EnFVf+UmqOnnyFHjxpAZ0G8bg68BMBmdIA5ws7k2UoG9t58hned RUohPJDw==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:44740 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXVnI-00FR6r-DD; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 22:46:40 +0100 From: Bob Briscoe To: Jay Daley Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> Message-ID: <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 22:46:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A7A07ED9F0C7F952EA19743C" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 21:47:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A7A07ED9F0C7F952EA19743C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to list moderation] Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well). I've put those two files in my working dir. And I added this one as well: https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc without it. However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - it's meaning, not just its syntax validity. XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write any XML). But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know: * how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render a 'title' * how to render a
    like it used to render a * how to render a (at least) as if it was a * and it doesn't understand what means, so it can't access any of the references. * and so on... Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window): https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools . It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. Unfortunately I didn't receive the invitation to take part, although I've used the same email for years, and I've submitted over 300 revisions of drafts in the last 10 years. Here's my profile . Bob On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi Bob > >> On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> >> Carsten, >> >> I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one. > Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions if your document specifies an RNC grammar. The full list of editors is those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" inhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors That table also lists all that have WYSIWYG support. > >> I've found this:https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf >> But I only understand about half the words. > To enable the RNC you should replace the line: > > > > with these lines: > > > > > and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source file. > > (For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version fromhttps://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar renamed) > > Jay > > >> Bob >> >> On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> The RNC used to be at >>>> >>>> http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >>> … and now at: >>> >>> https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >>> >>> Grüße, Carsten >>> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------A7A07ED9F0C7F952EA19743C Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to list moderation]

    Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well).
    I've put those two files in my working dir.
    And I added this one as well:
        https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc
    because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc without it.

    However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - it's meaning, not just its syntax validity.
    XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write any XML).
    But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know:
    • how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render a 'title'
    • how to render a <ul> like it used to render a <list>
    • how to render a <table> (at least) as if it was a <texttable>
    • and it doesn't understand what <xi:include> means, so it can't access any of the references.
    • and so on...
    Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window):
    https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png
    https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png


    I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools. It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. Unfortunately I didn't receive the invitation to take part, although I've used the same email for years, and I've submitted over 300 revisions of drafts in the last 10 years. Here's my profile.



    Bob


    On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley wrote:
    Hi Bob


    On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:

Carsten,

I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one.

    Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions if your document specifies an RNC grammar.  The full list of editors is those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors  That table also lists all that have WYSIWYG support.


    I've found this: https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf
But I only understand about half the words.

    To enable the RNC you should replace the line:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629.dtd">

with these lines:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629-xhtml.ent">
	<?xml-model href="rfc7991bis.rnc"?>

and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source file.  

(For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version from https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar renamed)

Jay



    Bob

On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote:

    On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

    The RNC used to be at

http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

    … and now at:

https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

Grüße, Carsten


    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
    --------------A7A07ED9F0C7F952EA19743C-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 15:40:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1252D3A0C7C for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WEnQ9PVvBQoM for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68B993A0C79 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3284112A5B; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMdvqgzKbEbf; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 612754112A58; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 15:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_144DB2DB-1F5F-4E7C-B0D9-5ABF5FE812D0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 11:40:19 +1300 In-Reply-To: <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss To: Bob Briscoe References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 22:40:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_144DB2DB-1F5F-4E7C-B0D9-5ABF5FE812D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to = list moderation] >=20 > Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well). > I've put those two files in my working dir. > And I added this one as well: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc = > because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc = without it. >=20 > However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - = it's meaning, not just its syntax validity. > XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't = need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write = any XML).=20 > But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know: > how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render a = 'title' > how to render a
      like it used to render a > how to render a
    (at least) as if it was a > and it doesn't understand what means, so it can't access = any of the references. > and so on... > Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and = after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without = makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking = window): > https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png = > https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png = I=E2=80=99ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML = gets rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT. It = would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I=E2=80=99ll take a = look. >=20 > I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools = . It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. = Unfortunately I didn't receive the invitation to take part, although = I've used the same email for years, and I've submitted over 300 = revisions of drafts in the last 10 years. Here's my profile = .=20 I=E2=80=99ve checked and you were on the mailing list used for the = survey invitations, so I guess it was filtered as spam. Jay >=20 >=20 >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 > On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley wrote: >> Hi Bob >>=20 >>> On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Carsten, >>>=20 >>> I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked = it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one. >> Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind = and XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing = functions if your document specifies an RNC grammar. The full list of = editors is those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" in = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors = That table = also lists all that have WYSIWYG support. >>=20 >>> I've found this: = https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf = = >>> But I only understand about half the words. >> To enable the RNC you should replace the line: >>=20 >> >>=20 >> with these lines: >>=20 >> >> >>=20 >> and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source = file. =20 >>=20 >> (For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version from = https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar = renamed) >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>=20 >>> Bob >>>=20 >>> On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann = wrote: >>>>> The RNC used to be at >>>>>=20 >>>>> = http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc = >>>> =E2=80=A6 and now at: >>>>=20 >>>> = https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc = >>>>=20 >>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> ________________________________________________________________ >>> Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ = >>>=20 >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org = >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = >=20 > --=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ = --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_144DB2DB-1F5F-4E7C-B0D9-5ABF5FE812D0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

    On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>= wrote:

    =20 =20
    Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to list moderation]

    Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well).
    I've put those two files in my working dir.
    And I added this one as well:
        https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1= .2-RFC.rnc
    because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc without it.

    However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - it's meaning, not just its syntax validity.
    XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write any XML).
    But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know:
    • how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it = used to render a 'title'
    • how to render a <ul> like it used to render a <list>
    • how to render a <table> (at least) as if it = was a <texttable>
    • and it doesn't understand what <xi:include> = means, so it can't access any of the references.
    • and so on...
    Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window):
    https:= //bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png
    https:= //bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png

    I=E2=80= =99ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML gets = rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT.  It = would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I=E2=80=99ll take a = look.


    I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools. It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. Unfortunately I didn't receive the invitation to take part, although I've used the same email for years, and I've submitted over 300 revisions of drafts in the last 10 years. Here's my profile.

    I=E2=80=99ve checked and you were on the mailing = list used for the survey invitations, so I guess it was filtered as = spam.

    Jay




    Bob


    On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley = wrote:
    Hi Bob


    On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, =
Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:

Carsten,

I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it =
up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one.

    Most XML editors, including =
Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and XMLSpy support =
auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions if your =
document specifies an RNC grammar.  The full list of editors is those =
with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_e=
ditors  That table also lists all that have WYSIWYG support.


    I've found this: https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rn=
gsupport/rngsupport.pdf
But I only understand about half the words.

    To enable the RNC you =
should replace the line:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629.dtd">

with these lines:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629-xhtml.ent">
	<?xml-model href=3D"rfc7991bis.rnc"?>

and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source =
file. =20

(For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version from https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar =
renamed)

Jay



    Bob

On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote:

    On 2021-10-04, at =
17:26, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

    The RNC used to be at

http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk=
/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

    =E2=80=A6 and now at:

https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/=
xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


    --=20
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org =
bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discu=
ss


    --=20
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

    -- 
    Jay = Daley
    IETF Executive Director
    exec-director@ietf.org

    = --Apple-Mail=_144DB2DB-1F5F-4E7C-B0D9-5ABF5FE812D0-- From nobody Mon Oct 4 16:01:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A99673A0CA6; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAd76JYKtyy1; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 761D03A0CA9; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 16:00:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=to0AvSA/5A6fgZZgZIxRviibQlYDjnMmkdFsKkg9Qfg=; b=XhoIsacBarFoCGFlbHNkwIfo14 wGvhrk4IBShSCzQscVLx7Bx63QDf6oudNjC9Y4nPJXAv+Lyp/GE44do+2L9WlXPRYWnQ4OMHBPPMw 0kJo2Rf5cu5ozwtfMjDaKkcyxPreQq7OfQJmO+qPfPluLvXgKYVFUl5av62M+j1+lJFjnzc/t6UBp u8ejCHHHMZuTzSEtjZH34rAcdgzdIlM4s/YmPBjPNN9w9owRQSHXxqnTuj2Q8va48H8VqdKqbGZ6u RMfb9OdHwxJt8ChUobJpsDkXgQXx3MC3gPFoy0BrzmJYDLFhCUTep0cj9CsJC7Bp5Ptv57l79N1cj WSVgpY5Q==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:45124 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXWx3-00GSvJ-SA; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 00:00:49 +0100 To: Jay Daley Cc: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 00:00:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BE344B4017357E58D6E89AD2" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2021 23:01:01 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BE344B4017357E58D6E89AD2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jay, Thankyou for going the extra mile. In case it's relevant, my XML wasn't quite as you described it, so I improvised. Below is the diff after my edits of the XML that had been produced by the v2 to v3 conversion, in case I did something wrong. In addition to adding 3 files:     rfc7991bis.rnc     rfc2629-xhtml.ent     SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc Bob /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ diff --git a/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml b/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml index fa7fa38..084d9c9 100644 --- a/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml +++ b/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml @@ -1,10 +1,11 @@   -           ]> +     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ On 04/10/2021 23:40, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe > > wrote: >> >> Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect >> to list moderation] >> >> Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well). >> I've put those two files in my working dir. >> And I added this one as well: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc >> because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the >> doc without it. >> >> However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - >> it's meaning, not just its syntax validity. >> XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't >> need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write >> any XML). >> But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know: >> >> * how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to >> render a 'title' >> * how to render a
      like it used to render a >> * how to render a
    (at least) as if it was a >> * and it doesn't understand what means, so it can't >> access any of the references. >> * and so on... >> >> Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and >> after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without >> makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window): >> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png >> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png > > I’ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML gets > rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT.  It > would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I’ll take a look. > >> >> I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools >> . >> It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. Unfortunately I didn't >> receive the invitation to take part, although I've used the same >> email for years, and I've submitted over 300 revisions of drafts in >> the last 10 years. Here's my profile >> . > > I’ve checked and you were on the mailing list used for the survey > invitations, so I guess it was filtered as spam. > > Jay > >> >> >> >> Bob >> >> >> On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley wrote: >>> Hi Bob >>> >>>> On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe wrote: >>>> >>>> Carsten, >>>> >>>> I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one. >>> Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions if your document specifies an RNC grammar. The full list of editors is those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" inhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors That table also lists all that have WYSIWYG support. >>> >>>> I've found this:https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf >>>> But I only understand about half the words. >>> To enable the RNC you should replace the line: >>> >>> >>> >>> with these lines: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source file. >>> >>> (For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version fromhttps://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar renamed) >>> >>> Jay >>> >>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>> On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>>> The RNC used to be at >>>>>> >>>>>> http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >>>>> … and now at: >>>>> >>>>> https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc >>>>> >>>>> Grüße, Carsten >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> ________________________________________________________________ >>>> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> * Reporttools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >>>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________________ >> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------BE344B4017357E58D6E89AD2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jay,

    Thankyou for going the extra mile.

    In case it's relevant, my XML wasn't quite as you described it, so I improvised.
    Below is the diff after my edits of the XML that had been produced by the v2 to v3 conversion, in case I did something wrong.
    In addition to adding 3 files:
        rfc7991bis.rnc
        rfc2629-xhtml.ent
        SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc


    Bob

    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    diff --git a/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml b/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml
    index fa7fa38..084d9c9 100644
    --- a/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml
    +++ b/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-17.xml
    @@ -1,10 +1,11 @@
     <?xml version='1.0' encoding='utf-8'?>
    -<!DOCTYPE rfc [
    +<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629-xhtml.ent" [
       <!ENTITY nbsp    "&#160;">
       <!ENTITY zwsp   "&#8203;">
       <!ENTITY nbhy   "&#8209;">
       <!ENTITY wj     "&#8288;">
     ]>
    +<?xml-model href="rfc7991bis.rnc"?>
     <!-- This template is for creating an Internet Draft using xml2rfc,
         which is available here: http://xml.resource.org. -->
     <?xml-stylesheet type='text/xsl' href='rfc2629.xslt' ?>
    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\


    On 04/10/2021 23:40, Jay Daley wrote:


    On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:

    Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to list moderation]

    Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well).
    I've put those two files in my working dir.
    And I added this one as well:
        https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc
    because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc without it.

    However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - it's meaning, not just its syntax validity.
    XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write any XML).
    But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know:
    • how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render a 'title'
    • how to render a <ul> like it used to render a <list>
    • how to render a <table> (at least) as if it was a <texttable>
    • and it doesn't understand what <xi:include> means, so it can't access any of the references.
    • and so on...
    Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window):
    https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png
    https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png

    I’ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML gets rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT.  It would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I’ll take a look.


    I found the results of your survey of I-D authoring tools. It doesn't look like many people use XMLMind. Unfortunately I didn't receive the invitation to take part, although I've used the same email for years, and I've submitted over 300 revisions of drafts in the last 10 years. Here's my profile.

    I’ve checked and you were on the mailing list used for the survey invitations, so I guess it was filtered as spam.

    Jay




    Bob


    On 04/10/2021 19:28, Jay Daley wrote:
    Hi Bob


    On 5/10/2021, at 5:57 AM, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:

Carsten,

I had never heard of an RNC before this email, and now I've looked it up, I get what is does, but I still I don't know what I do with one.

    Most XML editors, including Emacs in nXML mode, OxygenXML, XMLMind and XMLSpy support auto-completion and other schema aware editing functions if your document specifies an RNC grammar.  The full list of editors is those with a Yes under "Autocomplete using schema" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_XML_editors  That table also lists all that have WYSIWYG support.


    I've found this: https://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/_distrib/doc/rngsupport/rngsupport.pdf
But I only understand about half the words.

    To enable the RNC you should replace the line:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629.dtd">

with these lines:

	<!DOCTYPE rfc SYSTEM "rfc2629-xhtml.ent">
	<?xml-model href="rfc7991bis.rnc"?>

and put the two attached files into the same directory as your source file.  

(For info, rfc7991bis.rnc is the latest version from https://github.com/rfc-format/v3grammar renamed)

Jay



    Bob

On 04/10/2021 16:35, Carsten Bormann wrote:

    On 2021-10-04, at 17:26, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

    The RNC used to be at

http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

    … and now at:

https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/trunk/cli/xml2rfc/data/v3.rnc

Grüße, Carsten


    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

    -- 
    Jay Daley
    IETF Executive Director
    exec-director@ietf.org


    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
    --------------BE344B4017357E58D6E89AD2-- From nobody Tue Oct 5 03:24:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013A33A09DF for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 03:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A-Pjme57OSAQ for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 03:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECFB13A09E5 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 03:24:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1633429448; bh=4d26PEEePTEHpOs3NFtNHoWm8V2YyQ95rsEBgOrGE54=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=l1YJnxsz6isRrW7+jlI8ousVha/ZuSrB2nZTDopdgrsY7w3zoP+2qHGbE7PWDF3a5 6kdFT/heRXM2XzVec46khe8DeMmNl6lvUzm6/C11C2e294xIOwtJxU3Nhe6uA/l0Tc 9SBPwev1tZddzSIbMvVYf63agLsGs+gkcrf6Ui/A= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.54.215]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N17UW-1mwd1u2ImI-012bcH for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 12:24:08 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 12:24:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:a5yrFcWf4OnMP4/uNy/3rH6fgVjlebNnb9kOQHvKlgiJToFc//X qaJPtxA+X/gbVeqH1SCIyRJr58MWahYoN6J9sSLqfwz2Er9BVf1iaco2kRyJzp4O8PlV85X 6Fe3zAYyDDHQU1Ay54Hht0hGJd2D5/GtS/YBnftC+4DPYTotkrCJmJ/ifq2wkS/zPBYB9QT P28zxn+wxHrq7N9H6wJlg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:YZ64kWuqSOQ=:WSjBjMFvUscQLFD3swe+8W Xtu8Mkh8coORjhJfOKszsEhd2EuJ8xL+VforzsFvIBd7lKjwwigtblSgPPJjRWwQJJ/tQrUEQ ZOogZiAKXev4I2A3zYajxMBIUTvTVrYRSFqULlhjVgSSvMr4pc1qOPDb2vI1OyZBbCFko7BtA tg9oWJZgYroO8bCVOHDGWEL/Kfk0lOiFRoIy/CrowhWOWrQqT5KL+4RQcMvgJY7L5LuHU8lzM 5BuTo7QwTFwuIJa0/XvB9bIKCAlbGfQvQcMDil5XdGlxo/kqi1e6RhNgaHEoknuPCoZBAA9iP 49XWob9k4/PTIIQz+uTcICCHMPuwcEeX3Jt5+50m3cKc0iuGDAydhDmNg8Q7y6OdH8UlKfQR1 bhaxRo4JE3Gz03tB6j+YxzEwh/gIdqJvj/bkCjwdOoprq0Q8lpLn9QLEVQi+nPog7xDJ7t7ub a4iQt6rteKn2kEygmN8N/UX0riH6Z2jfRz9asi+WGpD17NA/RXwcrFJFruM2kUN6VpeneExMa 8J4tI69oXQW/VcK7hGcAZp1EFX9aXDWc131pOrMqNbmMNhjC2m96mYiMW+cIYcr8DhDYz9Qda CYBPOuonPSo3NQIBn6RPy5EkQooJZ9K+REB1jOz9MdYdPycjUcI1zyC0kFG2HLIhoHF5+55Jh mnc44WPZ3c9T08hv+vHr+PpkPrUz/2k5IuZRF5fL9Fy7sSs1x9YmBgFYS2hg4cbqplBGrfhBM iFvCmgIVTFt9uYj4xmLVPf3om2bycGnsoozPbWhf6Zc8NZr1ahuTv9lqFAQFouShJ0541Bq9t 6NpZQtnRPIrA+80SmkalutqILhkCnhJjhWemgpHKcjytTi3jYm+jGd+5JLtz2vT311yvOPoNd 5fri6NKz/lKGEFgR2xbdyhtCJ9FYLJPKlJzaYBiqermqRPAGnvokzspQHt4bAcRwCpfNFGBQ1 HsDETV68izN5pvqVeV9RfNc3dCfIuIH83fGz5SG+JcOyV9T4Bbrw+wl5HmFMd0gTqxXdGw5zw +YQREJraz35N9knrN9PdIKdLlUUnWst9886Zs1MVlsVR/3r4iMWIkGC/+UypM5tjPhlxp/eGp 0HnbZfpBU/tnWk= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 10:24:16 -0000 Am 05.10.2021 um 00:40 schrieb Jay Daley: > > >> On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe > > wrote: >> >> Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to >> list moderation] >> >> Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well). >> I've put those two files in my working dir. >> And I added this one as well: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc >> because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc >> without it. >> >> However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - >> it's meaning, not just its syntax validity. >> XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't >> need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write >> any XML). >> But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know: >> >> * how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render >> a 'title' >> * how to render a
      like it used to render a >> * how to render a
    (at least) as if it was a >> * and it doesn't understand what means, so it can't >> access any of the references. >> * and so on... >> >> Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and >> after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without >> makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking window= ): >> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png >> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png > > I=E2=80=99ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML= gets > rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT. =C2=A0It > would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I=E2=80=99ll take a l= ook. > ... I had a quick look at the (archived) source, and it appears to glue together XSLT, CSS and Java. So this definitively would require work to get working with V3. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Oct 5 08:03:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F5E3A05F0 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IZW2nwOwbQby for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07DB93A0475 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:03:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=V9fsVDWDCdmdk/vXwBWv3y6TWiCpd9Zi04Of48TPzAA=; b=apzmiuFoTxw/DByrdec4PZeiT6 SHb4mIDTmIMbsJ2cNtFpemKxN/as3d1G9hPOP7qg1vjN38Yo9pegJ3QcqTEVIgQ6XymMJrEVIhPs4 6sY2MiQkMTHYs/fOk7GzBTtcnufHUlLjBYh0V3wZvCxFhM+vKK05zX6/oQ7YwveX/WPkFbfSAmsXx kKY2p92xDPjiCk2r4X4JX1+WOVEwdHo3fO2vWOQOK52/OM3VgZQK5e2ovuwjScsXE35WNUrRvLq4x jqAgWQfvmSJRtXTshwzJgMpfJlSVjQlRdzy7yQDKZprY3AW6NHtfJBwS2dmsdX3goMxJCiin/yhfJ KfAPS5pQ==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:49558 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXlyW-00D91H-MU; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 16:03:20 +0100 To: Julian Reschke , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 16:03:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:03:30 -0000 Julian, On 05/10/2021 11:24, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 05.10.2021 um 00:40 schrieb Jay Daley: >> >> >>> On 5/10/2021, at 10:46 AM, Bob Briscoe >> > wrote: >>> >>> Jay, [re-sending with links not attachments, to avoid auto-redirect to >>> list moderation] >>> >>> Thanks for the help (and thanks, Carsten as well). >>> I've put those two files in my working dir. >>> And I added this one as well: >>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/format/SVG-1.2-RFC.rnc >>> because an include line required it, and XMLMind wouldn't load the doc >>> without it. >>> >>> However, XMLMind needs to know how to render each type of element - >>> it's meaning, not just its syntax validity. >>> XMLMind might be able to do auto-completion now (which it wouldn't >>> need, 'cos the point of using XMLMind is that you don't have to write >>> any XML). >>> But the XMLMind xml2rfc plugin still doesn't know: >>> >>>   * how to render the 'name' in a section heading as it used to render >>>     a 'title' >>>   * how to render a
      like it used to render a >>>   * how to render a
    (at least) as if it was a >>>   * and it doesn't understand what means, so it can't >>>     access any of the references. >>>   * and so on... >>> >>> Here are two images of XMLMind editing my test document before and >>> after v3 conversion (whether with the files you provided or without >>> makes no difference to the latter, except to the syntax checking >>> window): >>> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v2.resized.png >>> https://bobbriscoe.net/tmp/XMMLMind-xml2rfc-v3.resized.png >> >> I’ve not used XMLMind but in general there are two ways that XML gets >> rendered, one is with CSS directly and the second is with XSLT.  It >> would be useful to document how XMLMind does it so I’ll take a look. >> ... > > I had a quick look at the (archived) source, and it appears to glue > together XSLT, CSS and Java. So this definitively would require work to > get working with V3. [BB] This is the most useful statement I have seen. Aong with the apparent lack of comparable WYSIWYG editors, it means I know for sure that I have to stick at v2, and forget about v3 xml2rfc for now. Thank you. Bob > > Best regards, Julian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Tue Oct 5 08:30:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59663A0877; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:30:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id reKfAn2iqujD; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 950463A087F; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Cc:References:To:From:Subject:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RSOEFF3rAhFNbU+uhMqTwUa1VH0ItZLkYHaH+TnQJOM=; b=gAUJ+kdTlUaW/UuGiO0OL5sAnt /VwjlZjxN4uS56v9oEMvREGuqZxqQpYg4A3M99M8YDAo1+8ClHwI5Ya9ZbZmBqv3XFaZd5/mu0K+0 PK9vNqjnh15d8Q2mB/HuI8hn0HFPWxj/sd6bkhHV1iYRCmSAQa/uzIdnwcwTjuzMerB5LLlQHCICa tAqqn4f0gBAOQATT0egSYf8G2M9fJKVnZdllL7nBtDU5MUYA0RxesMniz5vVEX8Z6ACT0IDYLwVWv xUsG9SOrAukErsbhBwTeP5HvXcZkPW62aWDsbmwlsYlDZSWqal7Hrjlg6MKfrxAAKkcSkgAdiuUuC y6kxc//Q==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:49678 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXmOA-00Dag4-BW; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 16:29:50 +0100 From: Bob Briscoe To: Julian Reschke , Jay Daley References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 16:29:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:30:08 -0000 Julian, Jay, all, So, to close off with an answer to my original question... On 04/10/2021 16:17, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Can anyone recommend an XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3 and is > (roughly) WYSIWYG? One can maintain v2 RFC XML for WYSIKN editing in the XMLMind XML Editor (XXE). Then just before posting each revision of a draft, produce v3 RFC XML using the v2-v3 converter, but,  when editing the next revision, go back to your saved v2 RFC XML, ad infinitum. Bob -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Tue Oct 5 08:56:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0EB3A0AAA for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YY1G_r1OK__G for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1F0A3A0AA8 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:56:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1633449353; bh=hPyRQoydyVoFrvLX88MYEhc3XkQ3KtOmyt7WQFKxUo0=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=lB/V4q6rMdkfzMdoBEr/jHCHNkexNClUQ/o/XBAV06sZRAG9OYLAWNtcOkBQ7BtWp p0u2Gr8xCpocBrSXexVbHM0Vym3cEPhxYnSR/+b3ruA4S2kENmvCg2Y9+pbU4L9Og3 iQWuo5pm8CiGwgXSkYWv4SvuTjCXoLMMbiAHDhBQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.54.215]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MtOGU-1mmi5134ik-00un1M; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 17:55:53 +0200 To: Bob Briscoe , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <7fb71f8d-cb5c-c955-3aea-7e95f6fab767@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:55:51 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:uK1gzVo7u0VBxDH8hJPxt3OztmFCSHrIJ7AfOk8+MYFsXsT6Pw3 UV/E5RjNfQyOdcRB3tIYd0MZJkLKvlN3fZsY7SVDv+RNNj4ymMiXtFzkaj3FoCUnGeO/TZ7 k+hP4GS5NIYZ/PHW+/D6a+L6OwRqvMXnJEe3p1SwyqfSA/BtQ3denVvaWinTlREF0RTDbbb I22UApdpsoBvxkvWKXz4g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:CXxMtw9AOXE=:j98cybWknlZ3F5fYbtc2SA Qw2PIbtLP2kHnOm178E+7QBCKErHM9qaoy22hNttEGiqvSlJnA8+xHrJ33TaKegfLH9ZXjN/d gKRdF6WEJmUFGEdOMuFVJCHQfTjp/Rf9ls5rcGAf52IDXHSan2GmtXarKvFWxjMapmW/4xGSU RKK8TZvJ/+ZQQBRUhRMVuHRiRS0t36WOza8qzDANGTn7GNuweqePTXy8Tkb/fuBMKKlymOnh+ oYmkvPleE0UcoHXRkTBE556WMDwvYmXXovlqkHmnvPSQQYis1/lYvzhcFPPRTdfp+7zoUjJca GpZ+hAoxngNy/19+pMr5xjsf0DO6Zcv4XaTrSZixUtAOiRgkS9QpwbcF032GIqDH9JEq9Ai2f Qj9O2wHMaWgXXCvkquMqg2y4W/7tVI9iH2IjIoxsnw04O9P2m/AAZHf6TJkP3Rt30DP6vvW09 FR08AgmLMmJ/i2mucZ8XwHyBiYCI8BsBLfV2hsKeq4sfWX1+Aggh9Hw7cQvegNTiSSQO/L3g3 XouI0jfXeOeQKgTLbFBqLKlAzFVq9/YE6n1BBwgJFdj+wp8q0X5Ia5ds4wzV28FjUOPH7veL5 6+uZyo7yatcQMNg/YXSQLe82RfNrlgHf3eX1QlR5lvSVwoAgBAL8rc8YQ6B3NmHksg5ZZC739 RxDdrSF7S7Simj4Bvgsh+BiH6VxLlDEkgPjd4iUlOx2uPbR4C69d8yjnYbdihzYcC7BnoVeVH Lou70XZC/8lMxATHf127nYyAZHe6BSe1ud6V8pgRLSv5lBvt2uyZSXs53o40slHlms29LP+ef RI2adSF3r2HaXnfVXiswM1MA7ELtS6vCrBoSx9rhv6Az2u4n6NS8428SDIKwwsN4x2VcwAXsU 9b7DXh5ikGlagH9CZ/Ws0PjiIJZoTMjZ+ixEky/TywGHcetbdVdabcl7elFFz4ZewNMHVffk5 18Tjo/uv7N+yQR3qo/yhqFLBEz3zGKD5i26fhyy8upFYx5GoKogtxUZQpLP/T7kIEq7WW/Pa/ vK7UnRsDr3cQjSow2e2taJXZDil95EiweNsi+tswR3Fqf0OpXApuzmjiFHxN7wP+y3SbEFGKn Y/BufwcpYhut8s= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:56:41 -0000 Am 05.10.2021 um 17:03 schrieb Bob Briscoe: > ... >> I had a quick look at the (archived) source, and it appears to glue >> together XSLT, CSS and Java. So this definitively would require work to >> get working with V3. > > [BB] This is the most useful statement I have seen. Aong with the > apparent lack of comparable WYSIWYG editors, it means I know for sure > that I have to stick at v2, and forget about v3 xml2rfc for now. > ... If you need WYSIWYG. Or somebody could invest time in upgrading the plugin. Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Oct 5 08:57:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6823A0AAF; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:57:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6q2xLkLpG0OY; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9806D3A0AAA; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 08:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HP2Jw1RFwz2xfS; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:57:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 17:57:03 +0200 Cc: Julian Reschke , Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 655142223.593375-6820207dda9a08b3ee00fb0fd37915bb Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88E20127-B51B-43F3-B41B-6A22EF92CB3F@tzi.org> References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> To: Bob Briscoe X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 15:57:15 -0000 On 2021-10-05, at 17:29, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > One can maintain v2 RFC XML for WYSIKN editing in the XMLMind XML = Editor (XXE). Then just before posting each revision of a draft, produce = v3 RFC XML using the v2-v3 converter, > but, when editing the next revision, go back to your saved v2 RFC = XML, ad infinitum. There is no need to convert manually; the submission interface will now = do that automatically (and will accept any v3 features embedded in the = v2 if you choose to use them despite lack of WYSI). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Oct 5 09:22:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E1A3A0BF2 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:22:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9iokRiNSXbY for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E34E3A0BF1 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 09:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id p2so1897033vst.10 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 09:22:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8v/uU5z6zAmcPN+RYTa5jUjsbiXKZR6FZ+mtknbOJGU=; b=N6Y0z2R3x1rg+vBY58ZssEL7Sez3s/GDmRYFITzEP2ureLqnqZs/JRmeHtqhvbAI8+ buzGQvL57SGsRYrlqSx710tLlEjoQsOsKcfdit1auDKitb/I4BW2nndKgGsbjA1AumZt bn9jMd6hUBNHQJIs9pp3YEliXaxzJNxUPS7whiLQjLPpG2Qg4FNPuK0XBxaltSY2luNz jDZYqu6X3qFpfF6PlJqrP5CrZYS+ImK9tnIEd6Vza2ajknSDmAwG3GadH7W5qZTzeeaM u9gr4VK4iDRtTk8kHm0FJi5sU72POnFqiu7Eh7UF9i6WfUfANmbs+mXvKzanM5YhLibs falA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8v/uU5z6zAmcPN+RYTa5jUjsbiXKZR6FZ+mtknbOJGU=; b=1JB7MdYHysc2dT2x7LmC0QA7OABa1ZPKgEdjKkcuVW9/hvVf3F51G7ZWr2WjCcHXGx ZpaCxFGzQjYaZjdm9Z+zJvK9Cy76lz1yaY5Vt6h5srEbdPDHmZSQQ/yqwlpgvROUaA// qBXeHIr6wH3HGxjUH5FRwq7+9GsFhhN2rqQNcsPg+zgCpfmgHRR/lGk+GT7tb6naOLHs xb55lV23ac4aNfvx8qbyGDDj9BkCp+r70/KDXhPU1eCC6Pqd8G9k04QK34x5msMBwwNG 5fB0fpHxPvPsZ+vylFYWs4jyKDm7/UfClenFDzodD/6oGTEDeQ4kfozIRCyiwki665MN Mbbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531XMs72qDMEtOERhJoVzVoGPnKvVquwuNfaIxJudHmKcGzVKCYF dxOxvFMtE+juhbajNPnV1LF4311lIIH4TD/25dnDow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxRqXyQjnziR0AyZ5SLUqgWRgqvP9TS2Xj/+RupOBhe1bp3vXFUMZeGFSJvIhHO77Pt1EWNS2z9Sk6SNqGmTP4= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ac42:: with SMTP id n2mr18393717vsh.21.1633450932510; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 09:22:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> <7fb71f8d-cb5c-c955-3aea-7e95f6fab767@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <7fb71f8d-cb5c-c955-3aea-7e95f6fab767@gmx.de> From: Warren Kumari Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 12:21:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Julian Reschke Cc: Bob Briscoe , Tools Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000979a6405cd9d6ee2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 16:22:20 -0000 --000000000000979a6405cd9d6ee2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:56 AM Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 05.10.2021 um 17:03 schrieb Bob Briscoe: > > ... > >> I had a quick look at the (archived) source, and it appears to glue > >> together XSLT, CSS and Java. So this definitively would require work t= o > >> get working with V3. > > > > [BB] This is the most useful statement I have seen. Aong with the > > apparent lack of comparable WYSIWYG editors, it means I know for sure > > that I have to stick at v2, and forget about v3 xml2rfc for now. > > ... > > If you need WYSIWYG. > > Or somebody could invest time in upgrading the plugin. > +1. It lives here: https://github.com/wkumari/xml2rfc-xxe Most of this was written by Bill Fenner (billo) back in 2006-2009. It has a pile-o-java, and was written using xcode as the environment/build system/etc. Attempting to build the Jar on "modern" xcodes produces the opaque message: "Jam is deprecated and has been removed; targets that use Jam must be upgraded to native targets. For more information on doing this, consult the Xcode documentation." An (admittedly short) review of the documentation around java built targets and dependencies made both billo and I despair , and so I've just been including "the magic jar file" in each new version -- see https://github.com/wkumari/xml2rfc-xxe/commit/0e8049e74a74655545303ff07fcd4= 8e09c640721 I'm suspecting that the large majority of upgrading the plugin to support V3 would be dinkering with the build system to kudgel Java into actually producing a jar. The actual schema bit is likely handled fairly well by the editor itself. W > > Best regards, Julian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra --000000000000979a6405cd9d6ee2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:56 AM Julia= n Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.d= e> wrote:
    Am 05.10.2021 um 17:03 schrieb Bob Briscoe:
    > ...
    >> I had a quick look at the (archived) source, and it appears to glu= e
    >> together XSLT, CSS and Java. So this definitively would require wo= rk to
    >> get working with V3.
    >
    > [BB] This is the most useful statement I have seen. Aong with the
    > apparent lack of comparable WYSIWYG editors, it means I know for sure<= br> > that I have to stick at v2, and forget about v3 xml2rfc for now.
    > ...

    If you need WYSIWYG.

    Or somebody could invest time in upgrading the plugin.


    <= div>Most of this was written by Bill Fenner (billo) back in 2006-2009. It h= as a pile-o-java, and was written=C2=A0using xcode as the environment/build= system/etc.
    Attempting to build the Jar on "modern" xc= odes produces the opaque message: "Jam is deprecated and has been remo= ved; targets that use Jam must be upgraded to native targets. For more info= rmation on doing this, consult the Xcode documentation."
    An = (admittedly short) review of the documentation around java built targets an= d dependencies made both billo and I despair , and so I've just been in= cluding "the magic jar file" in each new version -- see https://github.com/wkumari/xml2rfc-xxe/commit/0e8049e74a74= 655545303ff07fcd48e09c640721

    I'm suspectin= g that the large majority of upgrading the plugin to support V3 would be di= nkering with the build system to kudgel Java into actually producing a jar.= The actual schema bit is likely handled fairly well by the editor itself.= =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    W

    Best regards, Julian

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


    --
    The computing scientist=E2=80= =99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
    complexities of his ow= n making.
    =C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
    --000000000000979a6405cd9d6ee2-- From nobody Tue Oct 5 15:06:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7445E3A0AEC; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 15:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7KjeCiEmtQ9; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 15:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E1FF3A0AE0; Tue, 5 Oct 2021 15:05:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YVbBAlUoQ6YhmovE5ZRDOI16aPsjQUMVMVMajPxgxpo=; b=jxj1Ux0w1fA8WdUOo5umZNP+k0 zH9hMZRo+O52j1js2dh5dZuxgflW9sfi1gtmE7gAAHvhydgFRFQUDyGG2B2JFndwnv9W+a6PyN6Dm gszuu8akK54VK4x6mTufE1NeuFeMlt6dEiqBnW4/MeeC3naYi+c7mNFzkYlczwW2wg6fhKzh/6SOF kH1of0g0sc5uf/Sf4DFiTiP6rC2pALtQVnf431UhW3Ha48gbIVQe3copnLnZ2JzfXTpULPeiuQYdY 4VAoCsXMGYmLhoPhV2gH8qJNiMjxYLTx6OSj0X1K02I6X84Kkae+YiTLsimcHRsR2stT8/GIUyjIc 9afMIJfw==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:51616 helo=[192.168.1.11]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mXsZU-001hJg-Mt; Tue, 05 Oct 2021 23:05:55 +0100 To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Julian Reschke , Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> <88E20127-B51B-43F3-B41B-6A22EF92CB3F@tzi.org> From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <5b9e07e7-d4bc-8370-9689-c520988bc5ad@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2021 23:05:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <88E20127-B51B-43F3-B41B-6A22EF92CB3F@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2021 22:06:10 -0000 Carsten, On 05/10/2021 16:57, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-10-05, at 17:29, Bob Briscoe wrote: >> One can maintain v2 RFC XML for WYSIKN editing in the XMLMind XML Editor (XXE). Then just before posting each revision of a draft, produce v3 RFC XML using the v2-v3 converter, >> but, when editing the next revision, go back to your saved v2 RFC XML, ad infinitum. > There is no need to convert manually; the submission interface will now do that automatically (and will accept any v3 features embedded in the v2 if you choose to use them despite lack of WYSI). [BB] Of course, yes. Thanks Bob > > Grüße, Carsten > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ From nobody Thu Oct 7 05:53:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8583A101C; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 05:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tNi-kX73mkNy; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu (mail-ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu [185.185.85.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 964B13A1019; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 05:53:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:References:Cc:To:From:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=F0vvujKbo2HvHnAN3k/wcm8DuY1Xlw0KNWLxPzf2IHY=; b=Nt8nAtZMeDL4dIOexy8Ds7icIO 0FXs3GZExkbX7f4hRJYOCsZf61btDcl/C6SUeWRshMDwbakkmMNRnaDoA4j/bJTmFpdwm5Bhg91Xg N11KK8DyQsabG8B3cn/5IZsy8kF1Bsu7oeeWLmycmwmyyJBkEgFfrC9XZdo8DvyPWsO1x138FumNc Qww5HhGsaPkvTVrnmYCx0ZIkSlATvqmw5NtE5UxEmiis5YLCnoO6D4xyna94ItRtft/sASAPzH4UL J/Kn4aqfxaVXprt/EzGcw/lftzv+QwmAi+CzqhdeFO1RKl0Lz+FWAhQUusQaKLoKLoUmF4rY/3upt zjFeIu9g==; Received: from 67.153.238.178.in-addr.arpa ([178.238.153.67]:33866 helo=[192.168.1.13]) by ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1mYStd-0074DZ-2e; Thu, 07 Oct 2021 13:53:13 +0100 From: Bob Briscoe To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Julian Reschke , Jay Daley , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <70D53849-5EBA-4A66-9AC7-DAD16256C582@tzi.org> <8edd415f-9d28-6a21-8fe2-b70368aa3878@bobbriscoe.net> <8550302d-d379-95eb-d32f-c281f6f286f6@bobbriscoe.net> <88E20127-B51B-43F3-B41B-6A22EF92CB3F@tzi.org> <5b9e07e7-d4bc-8370-9689-c520988bc5ad@bobbriscoe.net> Message-ID: <24965d32-b32b-17db-ce26-19b3bb2edf72@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 13:53:10 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5b9e07e7-d4bc-8370-9689-c520988bc5ad@bobbriscoe.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------501B48AAB181BFEC09218FDD" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: ssdrsserver2.hostinginterface.eu: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WYSIWYG XML editor that supports xml2rfc v3? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 12:53:28 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------501B48AAB181BFEC09218FDD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carsten, On 05/10/2021 23:05, Bob Briscoe wrote: > Carsten, > > On 05/10/2021 16:57, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 2021-10-05, at 17:29, Bob Briscoe wrote: >>> One can maintain v2 RFC XML for WYSIKN editing in the XMLMind XML >>> Editor (XXE). Then just before posting each revision of a draft, >>> produce v3 RFC XML using the v2-v3 converter, >>> but,  when editing the next revision, go back to your saved v2 RFC >>> XML, ad infinitum. >> There is no need to convert manually; the submission interface will >> now do that automatically (and will accept any v3 features embedded >> in the v2 if you choose to use them despite lack of WYSI). > > [BB] Of course, yes. Thanks [BB2] Actually, in practice, no. Using the Dev version of xml2rfc online : * I just converted my v2 XML manually with the "convert v2 to v3 XML" option, then re-input the resulting V3 XML into the same tool but with just plaintext output.    It worked fine - no errors. * Whereas, when I input the v2 XML to the same tool, but with "v3-plaintext" output option, it errors on the first external reference: INPUT: Line 1318: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.RFC.2119" Bob > > > Bob > >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------501B48AAB181BFEC09218FDD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carsten,

    On 05/10/2021 23:05, Bob Briscoe wrote:
    Carsten,

    On 05/10/2021 16:57, Carsten Bormann wrote:
    On 2021-10-05, at 17:29, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
    One can maintain v2 RFC XML for WYSIKN editing in the XMLMind XML Editor (XXE). Then just before posting each revision of a draft, produce v3 RFC XML using the v2-v3 converter,
    but,  when editing the next revision, go back to your saved v2 RFC XML, ad infinitum.
    There is no need to convert manually; the submission interface will now do that automatically (and will accept any v3 features embedded in the v2 if you choose to use them despite lack of WYSI).

    [BB] Of course, yes. Thanks

    [BB2] Actually, in practice, no. Using the Dev version of xml2rfc online:
    * I just converted my v2 XML manually with the "convert v2 to v3 XML" option, then re-input the resulting V3 XML into the same tool but with just plaintext output.
       It worked fine - no errors.
    * Whereas, when I input the v2 XML to the same tool, but with "v3-plaintext" output option, it errors on the first external reference:
     INPUT: Line 1318: Unable to resolve external request: "reference.RFC.2119"


    Bob




    Bob


    Grüße, Carsten 



    -- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
    --------------501B48AAB181BFEC09218FDD-- From nobody Thu Oct 7 12:43:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E273A0DFC; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9cvJKsImEVEW; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0083E3A0DF7; Thu, 7 Oct 2021 12:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 197JhNTr006008 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:43:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1633635804; bh=A1dcWMvLxE8RxkQZ/Ld4YFw/xc6N2LEmALC1vMHSpQs=; h=From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=nsfyAKprwc/mNrvcHvSZ9DNd6nhtgyyOH+v+P/1BAraefw1gf/OXuOM5L81SrqrlY m6VSKwVO7k/ASdtZFT4iqJF4ddI63ZMpvsWP6VCGA7c21g0uiDFfLT1u03eOq9ulyM XQOJvj3LADYS4OUnybKNKFns6VU5Fs6Vzi02Wa6E= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss Cc: IETF Codesprints References: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2021 14:43:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Performance oriented codesprint before IETF 112 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2021 19:43:44 -0000 Given the doodle results, my plan is to have the primary sprint 27 Oct=20 1600-2000 UTC. People can join or leave as convenient. Coordinates will=20 be sent soon. I will also have a conference set up for 28 Oct at those same times for=20 followup and for anyone who can't participate on the 27th. I plan to make resources for analyzing performance available well before = the sprint. Future communication on that topic will occur on the=20 codesprints@ list. (If you are interested, please subscribe). RjS On 9/29/21 5:23 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > We would like to hold a codesprint before IETF 112 focused on=20 > datatracker performance. > > We have been improving the instrumentation of the datatracker, and=20 > plan to provide quite a bit of information that will help us focus on=20 > places that will help us most. These include statistic from the=20 > database engine itself, and instrumentation that measures which views=20 > are getting the most use, suffering the worst cumulative performance,=20 > and how those views use the database. > > I expect much of the work will be verifying that the database has the=20 > right indices, adjusting views to make better use of the ORM (such as=20 > prefetching data (and not to prefetch too _much_ data), and adjusting=20 > models where the current models are proving to be problematic. > > I have a doodle for two different possible times on either Oct 27 or=20 > Oct 28. > > If you would like to participate, please add yourself to the doodle.=20 > If the proposed times can't be made to work for you and you would=20 > really like to engage in this kind of sprint, please just add a=20 > comment at the doodle page. > > RjS > > > > From nobody Fri Oct 8 04:01:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 059EC3A163D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 04:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xo-46_6G20Wh for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 04:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 024DF3A1640 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 04:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.157] (unknown [78.156.11.215]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2BDCE7C7306 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:01:47 +0200 (CEST) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:01:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Bug in tracker - where to report? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 11:01:54 -0000 There seems to be a bug here: https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mediaman/charters If I click on the "wiki" link, I get a "page not found" error. That doesn't seem right - it should either lead me to a wiki (empty) or to a page saying how I can request the wiki to be created. This address was the closest I could find to a "report bugs" link by reading https://tools.ietf.org/about Cheers! Harald From nobody Fri Oct 8 06:58:27 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B623A07CC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:58:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWairEg7AWtl for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C69A3A07BC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 06:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 198Dw7FG006167 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:58:09 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1633701489; bh=/MrHarWze/7uP1fCmJPVorDY6y5DQwejqWFoCbr01xM=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=N36O5QFTB7QFaDQUabBLqbb48GcZQVrqo6d6nnBR48RJCCuyLxJyujmkeDDEXiTkd se8lCk4rcm12m0Y2tRkONfkU+Xjei93f/knK3O7EEm6MxRzj+VGCbrmd9n1YtCpJ44 BD3+5augH0/EbaE8m2aHdTOpVkr31tDwxvLQQmqA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Harald Alvestrand References: From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <5d2f17aa-4f04-7ff3-7c93-cbbb9827c1f5@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 08:58:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bug in tracker - where to report? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 13:58:25 -0000 HI Harald - there are many things to address here: On 10/8/21 6:01 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > There seems to be a bug here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/wg/mediaman/charters You should be looking instead at=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/mediaman/about, and a redirect for=20 that will be in place soon. > > If I click on the "wiki" link, I get a "page not found" error. We are near completion on replacing the wiki infrastructure. We haven't=20 had a request to create a new trac wiki in quite some time, and are=20 moving things out of trac. See the description in the unawarded "Trac wiki migration to Wiki.js"=20 RFP at https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/rfps-and-contracts/.=20 We're doing the work described there ourselves, with some help from=20 Meetecho to make wiki.js aware of datatracker roles and will crowdsource = most of the content moving when the result is available to the community = (which should be just a few weeks away). So - please contact me, or the secretariat, to see what we can provide=20 right now to meet the need you're feeling for a mediaman wiki. > > That doesn't seem right - it should either lead me to a wiki (empty)=20 > or to a page saying how I can request the wiki to be created. We'll address the dead link by replacing the page (as above). > > This address was the closest I could find to a "report bugs" link by=20 > reading https://tools.ietf.org/about The best way to reach the tools team is through the instructions at the=20 bottom of (almost) every datatracker page. But when in doubt,=20 support@ietf.org will get routed to the right place. Bringing up issues on this list also works - I capture issues from here=20 as tickets, but there may be additional lag. Finally, as noted earlier, Henrik has retired, and we are in the last=20 parts of the process of turning tools.ietf.org down. Redirects will=20 remain in place to the services that replace what was there. Our goal is = to finish this transition between IETF 112 and 113. If you didn't see it when it was first sent, please be aware of=20 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/ > > Cheers! > > Harald > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:=20 > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Oct 8 11:54:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409163A0DE0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSgpaV4mSfgS for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D55FF3A0DDC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 11:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 198IsfNd064977 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:54:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1633719282; bh=48sewFyVPOqs6+1KYYCyZvoCfDtbFgtWLWYKLYZHMZ0=; h=To:Cc:From:Subject:Date; b=vEuCszLSSD3nf3GEW4H7RnJnIxFVrB8GZyQBGNAY2fN7C37HrUj+m669cFRNj2wJB aJRliB6jSdhPdWiiua9ZyHZkckSS8X6zFJvH6Ct27gDnFSibbZWRQHs5YG/8onXnpB P2QN8uGujJZMoUYtijKF8g3uzTmjBk+kdOw3TKJo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <12b5bab0-27bf-f0d4-f1a6-481b40ae1d0d@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 13:54:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] author tools api and webservice X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 18:54:51 -0000 All - Please spend a few minutes exploring https://author-tools.ietf.org/ This is the webservice that will replace xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org soon. It will allow, but not require, login. At the moment, logging in has no=20 effect. It is built on top of an API that you can also use directly - see=20 https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc. To use the API, you'll need a personal API key from the datatracker,=20 which you can get from https://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/apikey once you are logged in (the entry "API keys" in the menu under your=20 login name takes you to that URI). Please send feedback directly to Kesara or me, or open issues at https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui for the UI page at=20 https://author-tools.ietf.org/ https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at for the api RjS From nobody Fri Oct 8 12:23:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F893A0F0C for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vsy8xQCSBqK6 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 728533A0EFB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 2021 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id x11so696204ilv.11 for ; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Z7BwRRB9djwyWAfUx97hhwjYC310SoYJHals9vsxm4I=; b=bbSJSmCwt24nL1CgjYjQihod0i6HdZ/whOzvenYoDzUasEV5Bna0V/RWD+WC2gqipJ M13sor/QMISk+dwKXL4t13ROswP4muKjUkBqGgEXDkK6i60qBTXAgnOt+tQ3ryFQYv3T 4Ksp5YmUqEEGwlzfr/IOngp7NqcUQDQ3jCMkccEXdf75jMzZGLJEm73ITvEKsR9h4KMN rXs/6h+EYuRPwpfIt75MPQnBeptA9xjVtn+eBVMZvCkk7GaE8UPQ0epDkfSeuka5Vg9h n8edn74YAX985LwlhAKGu4mS2aa82dxjIu2RIAVRQByl6/kIXArYL3OaJ6fCNVWsScTL WQiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Z7BwRRB9djwyWAfUx97hhwjYC310SoYJHals9vsxm4I=; b=4a4RNBC7wUVES5xAtWKG3K20NCFAoDZ+1TutXMZ6Ia6OfcHM/Wvqq+9SFk1BDkf954 FF/CCch6lrOsjj8Q5yNRBwPj96DjNhjRiterSV1WLDG7cSZYUfdgy/nmLId68gz0zhrZ OLtMyEOICgOBijmtAR4F0H7SJCxsHAuLiKf35roA7Gsn8JLaYGoI6R221vw1AawwOohU oPcZJTZAFaGgE6rV3K2uQjUOQN1pOr/zxlr4DQnR+RC0xmYQ79kEetm3VQdWSqydSBzC JaC0s4+Gje3Vz+37VmscOWpKNVuDmfNZzrUPrW7qwJ8GJI35HLK6mC5OsDeSRSsIMbjS +c1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WcYmCtaJ13y6dv3Hilh1avvWAGuqu7K6IaGvsVYN+Vi2HF+gQ 9LLcp29IFOOJ3zLLjAI/2xzXzbabiEfboDw0zn3mhlpp/p4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTSaGJR0eng+adzWO94khk9iYfz2/U1zX+hfD8JSY+qr8fxMgV3sjFK4nWMgANwzMplEMhgIattJVo5N1r7WU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a69:: with SMTP id w9mr9407081ilv.235.1633720988431; Fri, 08 Oct 2021 12:23:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <12b5bab0-27bf-f0d4-f1a6-481b40ae1d0d@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <12b5bab0-27bf-f0d4-f1a6-481b40ae1d0d@nostrum.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2021 15:22:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d7a0105cddc4f8b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] author tools api and webservice X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2021 19:23:15 -0000 --0000000000002d7a0105cddc4f8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Robert, The page looks great, very simple to get what you need! And on the "About" page, I like the pointers to the various sources. You say, at the top, to contact the tools team for questions and comments, but don't say how. I know how, but other people may not. :-) Along similar lines, at the bottom of the email you reference " ietf-action@ietf.org", but I believe that's been replaced by " support@ietf.org". Thanks, Andy On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 2:54 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > All - > > Please spend a few minutes exploring https://author-tools.ietf.org/ > > This is the webservice that will replace xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org soon. > > It will allow, but not require, login. At the moment, logging in has no > effect. > > It is built on top of an API that you can also use directly - see > https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc. > > To use the API, you'll need a personal API key from the datatracker, > which you can get from > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/apikey > > once you are logged in (the entry "API keys" in the menu under your > login name takes you to that URI). > > Please send feedback directly to Kesara or me, or open issues at > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui for the UI page at > https://author-tools.ietf.org/ > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at for the api > > RjS > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000002d7a0105cddc4f8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Robert,

    The page looks great,=C2=A0very= simple to=C2=A0get what you=C2=A0need! And on the "About" page, = I like the pointers to the various sources.

    You sa= y, at the top, to contact the tools team for questions and comments, but do= n't say how.=C2=A0 I know how, but other people may not. :-)
    =
    Along similar lines, at the bottom of the email you referenc= e "ietf-action@ietf.org&qu= ot;, but I believe=C2=A0that's been replaced by "support@ietf.org".

    Tha= nks,
    Andy


    On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 2:54 PM Robe= rt Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com<= /a>> wrote:
    A= ll -

    Please spend a few minutes exploring     https://author-tools.ietf.org/

    This is the webservice that will replace     xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org soo= n.

    It will allow, but not require, login. At the moment, logging in has no effect.

    It is built on top of an API that you can also use directly - see
    https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc.

    To use the API, you'll need a personal API key from the datatracker, which you can get from

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/apikey

    once you are logged in (the entry "API keys" in the menu under yo= ur
    login name takes you to that URI).

    Please send feedback directly to Kesara or me, or open issues at

    https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui for the UI page= at
    https://author-tools.ietf.org/

    https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at for the api

    RjS


    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --0000000000002d7a0105cddc4f8b-- From nobody Sat Oct 9 01:22:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1DD53A074B for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:22:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qdnTE5MG-Hsm for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56CF63A0745 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C3E41274CC; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dw5fYWQSurAb; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2404:440c:17e5:c300:c8ba:7b3a:fe32:8141] (unknown [IPv6:2404:440c:17e5:c300:c8ba:7b3a:fe32:8141]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B97524112A50; Sat, 9 Oct 2021 01:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <974d25ba-09fa-f360-6428-435ffe6d891a@staff.ietf.org> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2021 21:21:49 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:93.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/93.0 Content-Language: en-NZ To: "Andrew G. Malis" , Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss References: <12b5bab0-27bf-f0d4-f1a6-481b40ae1d0d@nostrum.com> From: Kesara Rathnayake Organization: IETF Administration LLC In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] author tools api and webservice X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Oct 2021 08:22:01 -0000 On 9/10/21 8:22 am, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Robert, > > The page looks great, very simple to get what you need! And on the > "About" page, I like the pointers to the various sources. > > You say, at the top, to contact the tools team for questions and > comments, but don't say how.  I know how, but other people may not. :-) Thanks for the feedback. I'll update the web UI to provide better information on how to submit bug reports and comments. See: https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui/issues/13 --Kesara > > Along similar lines, at the bottom of the email you reference > "ietf-action@ietf.org ", but I > believe that's been replaced by "support@ietf.org > ". > > Thanks, > Andy > > > On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 2:54 PM Robert Sparks > wrote: > > All - > > Please spend a few minutes exploring https://author-tools.ietf.org/ > > > This is the webservice that will replace xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org > soon. > > It will allow, but not require, login. At the moment, logging in has no > effect. > > It is built on top of an API that you can also use directly - see > https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc . > > To use the API, you'll need a personal API key from the datatracker, > which you can get from > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/accounts/apikey > > > once you are logged in (the entry "API keys" in the menu under your > login name takes you to that URI). > > Please send feedback directly to Kesara or me, or open issues at > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui > for the UI page at > https://author-tools.ietf.org/ > > https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at > for the api > > RjS > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > -- Kesara Rathnayake Senior Software Development Engineer - IETF LLC kesara@staff.ietf.org From nobody Mon Oct 11 03:14:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AC663A0963 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 03:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q8Fm-LxetYYC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 03:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F238E3A095F for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 03:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:a867:7af:b73f:3db4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 449AA600BB6 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:13:53 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1633947233; bh=JMKg3fC4GNlPlY2gqHXCk3O0YcftJS5V/rzXM6drMOo=; h=From:Subject:Date:To; b=Yxs0/KQv1f23dJf+EcczIFRxBMzluQEIU3FlC8T4lE8KNnP/0DW5XETbYKZeagAPW nR77nIlXEPZWq/ZivIlf36oy4gj8JfAkaOxI85Mqg/IM7rzfH1hbjC80iInB3fbV/d PZTByADwqIgtFf/iXagSTX+uSo3as3zHBNZ+FBVM= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD51BBB5-A365-48AC-B3CD-94F2751F1AE2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:13:52 +0300 To: Tools Team Discussion X-MailScanner-ID: 449AA600BB6.A232D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Who does datatracker dev using the docker images? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 10:14:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD51BBB5-A365-48AC-B3CD-94F2751F1AE2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I'm looking for some testers for some changes/simplifications I made to = the docker image and scripts used for datatracker development (i.e., the = stuff under https://svn.ietf.org/svn/tools/ietfdb/trunk/docker/) Please drop me a line if you'd have cycles to test some things. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_BD51BBB5-A365-48AC-B3CD-94F2751F1AE2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFkDmAACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdDRxAAiTxKTTpRjuoTIGT2dGRMNBXMERcYK/jb5paKLkReOU9/ZhORvlykuU1X p4exeX7oAqTt5sPZ06+QWIde96geJCWbaJVmJJpETQK1ZIu9+cZcG2SqMNTYGIJr 9VuX1Jn2YnRucrIjbk+hBvH6li/DOboM8MDPChjIoFlnkFD78+nLbBzaHYTTENNB 4NRBEY7TTlqJE8TAAd00mZZhC1IsnlaDnYkHBmRWL+n7+Wvb4vZ5imG599Cyt2nz R4a7TfkfnOQ01vYSozQnln0k2TFGCRyiKTiBrZ+NIsqOE49GZlqf4IdY0Mf+jYUb grdwpC0JFWBqydhCUM2rBG4zcM6POXH6bJJWDNfiFjhZTyqKp2mom272z+6+NrlH TWZOsovpiYkhRcif6P8VaDx+mEuwFpEDthMm793A6rZ+k9D3s/rTJ4x82NaxWpcc ImTfvBPtuuHS6iR7R66Gcrjq7Y02rp6/NkOlbxWIbble01pknqO+ljkjnDHPM5Sr zD/oWlxhDqPnwsk6+NcLjKGaZywddYIb1mj1dsF/ibnD/XREI2PGaYZ28MmUhdal Evm2Qr6RXXI+tp6J2jOYKvLW5p/t0MyivYaG/bzpiK7UUCzdejyvR2Rx10Q2GfVo UGlIg2DwVOU9mxonoUrzA5iDsVZEQDh+lIUKNE4SnJq95Sv/ff0= =GsBb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BD51BBB5-A365-48AC-B3CD-94F2751F1AE2-- From nobody Mon Oct 11 12:51:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CB83A045E for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A1kzL3dXUN-2 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75293A044D for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id s75so11762429pgs.5 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LNrpUFD8MdH+0ZmcRI90UxmwVlgm3xQvrKfs54m9nxI=; b=FMsSiw3yu6ItX33yhEW81SAk/F+fmrF2Ac1yOjBvtVcKb00U90HRCXKU0jIUOaGMwT nbFYOHwK0QQc74txAZH6pceCVAtcgp8s/v0MD1MXO40fOg9TmB9+vAW6yPf9FguFcPK8 ZUAeMEBgNvSw+au/tcUTu51yb+ZMMUxmCNUcbX+wckBVfTmYs1GZYkgUX4Tz+djZA+nb g0qy7HqXsGEOtcPgPSf1TTfnQDQSkyNzguvoTezAm/QSQwB0fyGyIf+Hx7ejQpaH+k6S uhJmcqIyAXBYcxsNxOjVqljMnxBzzYgqkfVfm/C7MwfjnrVUvDIBurKUBKbtqGKJd0Pz hENQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LNrpUFD8MdH+0ZmcRI90UxmwVlgm3xQvrKfs54m9nxI=; b=RRc2dGJ8hH4mqTTqOFGogYcz/JxREIqTlAd+2LsX5XbGWKquBXYj8hJtqlQYgoKlYJ Gi46NnWcvcZi5sq+hDh4SZKvFuoqvmgiyfjv4VPhYvuvedZ8am3VOTmGqIyEMUIs4RBH 5qZoTjV2ug16sTBj61x2mzLHDNsx+UCdDY5UFJ7bzBivdhv10lBYqoY82tEbUs3UcbJ2 QgX84wKf+8BVxOtjBabOIiBeiEhv4xZyTcm1wJjZ2MsjfaeBSw5B46QeaTDFMKFx1Sr7 UTuJ0NRSPBo61Lfdj4dCcipW6VE/UGHVLSGbpurMEC27QDywaB81ny9G//FgGoVDRCnj 8Efg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WyQKvoLPvMa1E8hFrg3Bz4MFxjOC96qyCvcx2aaf/E+H44Vpj n0iGEOqk8auEHOKGNiT6A7OFFdzZ+ysdbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwm7AtV3ei/B62AXveMLwlHo/c455QH1QQhekjJ5yjofAo+H6kV4FxG/fsXwOcoE7RKDg5Z5w== X-Received: by 2002:a63:5d5f:: with SMTP id o31mr19800274pgm.312.1633981863928; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g17sm5871445pfu.22.2021.10.11.12.51.02 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Tools Team Discussion From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6afd654d-4a57-81d7-b22b-58ce42cc9ae0@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:50:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Missing diff? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 19:51:10 -0000 Hi, Am I misremembering? I thought that pages like this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-hbh-00 used to automatically include the diff between the previous (non-WG) draft and the WG -00 draft. Maybe that was a feature of the tools.ietf.org site that didn't survive the transfer? Regards Brian From nobody Mon Oct 11 13:04:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF6F3A0653 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1PtuM7Lf-3Ol for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com (mail-pg1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F0463A059F for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id e7so11805190pgk.2 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:04:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EGxCt3rpidxuvcEHVas1uh+2qPZM793pUwOrMEUR4FM=; b=EXVuwOl0RdQSLg1tqMZty+g4XghSSFnM5i5P1t2j3B3P8za8om8hUUchw9eyNHR8jX 0EL6HFzWz2bXDutWuzMjORnOq7dxHeYHvfGBqHN3Wds8vcQtAReaN4T8/KExZNUGxQQj KB/rLkZ2nYpFv86+PRhMEXmbCn+NvZmGd4J/zPx3Ksw6lb2YaxNNzja9dblqrhNUXr36 146Gf0hmBnb1SAHiR0GvMObxc0R9PCW+os6eM/yQoHCnTOel3xkMFPbWNXv69/dMu5ua CuriURRvBQbVXicF4oWm0qkqU6IoXrvzUkxa4fRU2HecxiLb3AwkHFTyrvhRC6Wp/QL4 0ueg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EGxCt3rpidxuvcEHVas1uh+2qPZM793pUwOrMEUR4FM=; b=VaRZ+C008PD0gi4XFQbbnTWfemFLoGzmUHdVXw4RXeNIHQRHVGMfBQ+HXITMnJiPiA WOtKir0JxsFu5xTTJgeStvxQrl/JlU0T12jnxfPdi3p5VzPbf2PrUoE0WIWkbU20boly BJPk+8Lmd+YlM6QFD2UuWTJGYRsE8TnOBJLMYe8O/wapZkNmiCsrNXVWoAibomJ46k5y SwKq8QN72xyMMTidVs+Xg1E+KuQoRHOpgPzwCrNxFwA6tdB7v7jEjeBSA7OcNeXHgiYp HhwY+DTCTJP4PBmTxH5kPHjTQHD7iQOBbWjHFcSZ/1Szp/wfOBBwabmK+7uu7J+x5zeu 5p5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Edf7EolaJIZ1XCDJc9QbE88aSgvmqBED3R9/tORIP3UXAanTY lsZk7dku0lIBgYxU8/iX/0f+9SGYevxiiA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiJz5WShMQkMTWmgLBMLC9c7F3rfhmwDrBi5wtgDey0J0ABpn44eqRA2pIskuyOqH1+7hnQA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:b64e:: with SMTP id v14mr7538739pgt.56.1633982639517; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i18sm8615639pfq.198.2021.10.11.13.03.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 13:03:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: Tools Team Discussion Message-ID: <6b806257-5ca0-d3cb-861d-a8c1a6ed430e@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:03:55 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] idnits and rfcdiff MIA? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 20:04:05 -0000 Hi, For a long time I've been using https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ and https://www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/ Just recently they have started redirecting from the current tools to legacy versions at www6. Where are the current versions hiding? Regards Brian From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:17:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859E73A090F for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:17:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QurFKyuJWiFQ for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A07F73A090D for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19BLH5Mw075597 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:17:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1633987026; bh=Zw2F8rDz4z5mSUu33NXG0y/16Mh3jDqEbEPba69WX2Q=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=IO5kmfZ2F2eiqW7ML3GsirvcHzZRdq4Nx7T14SjTj0uwJ9URpmUUnmIEo0LLOyh6G CnhqenDAHd5ZV+HWtXywmujx67VkX8yQPe4HDoUMzzci32qZIOLbaL+GUfZ84FYDD8 DQ2kS16KHFLlOTlqkFlqEh8elesY/e0al806CTQw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:17:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <6b806257-5ca0-d3cb-861d-a8c1a6ed430e@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <6b806257-5ca0-d3cb-861d-a8c1a6ed430e@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] idnits and rfcdiff MIA? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:17:12 -0000 On 10/11/21 3:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > For a long time I've been using > > https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ > and > https://www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/ > > Just recently they have started redirecting from the current tools to legacy versions at www6. No - they haven't changed in a long time. Something must have happened to cause you to re-notice the www6 window-dressing. Maybe you've been useing https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff which has the dressing removed already? The wrappers at /tools/ have been like they are for some time, and remain a task item to correct for the versions that are being served from www.ietf.org. I'll be making some further changes to rfcdiff's wrapper later today or tomorrow to get it to take its metadata from the datatracker rather than from tools.ietf.org and will look at unifying the wrappers. In the not-too-distant future (this may overtake the updates on the versions running at www.ietf.org, both of these tools will move to a service similar to the one we are building at https://author-tools.ietf.org/ RjS > > Where are the current versions hiding? > > Regards > Brian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:21:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207913A0975 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kOEAqAwggqUI for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0BAC3A0966 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id ls18-20020a17090b351200b001a00250584aso352090pjb.4 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:from:to:references:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QdNRfIQoP7VI6/67ooBxDe+vw7TSmDI/pOQy5P2PLbo=; b=O053Q1N0gTbed01TsqbwIlzqUJ89Qz9QREWtWR+xChIfHIv+pU6ppb3xrw+AH6uiCU yYXQLB79L5yWCVXva5KjsS2mlrPYw+6C8hQXfmqvps1nbJBuizG/9ugOsmLx50r7VDRp tq19nrjw8JH2s5VGtmZpeoWLdGt0p2m0ThXJLXsPqovy99AdcJxRlDRXKCwTrU1QoqaR yQtk76S/ZoU0tFIy2cvWKkOkDPV6B0B9TZ/T5Jt5+jDphk3HQcKQ06zPo3KG30ssqLp2 WBmHmbwJQoc6Ke2qnWLJBLH6a2QpYYpqsLzKM0w2u+toIKBqYHDhz/yIDG3acXSG9Ylt MPPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:from:to:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QdNRfIQoP7VI6/67ooBxDe+vw7TSmDI/pOQy5P2PLbo=; b=pZeDUZnqcne6yDr9RGuR4MxXENBEOHg+G63YXly8OCeEoFTmw2mbNv5faAANG0D4ns 65+ZZr/P5BHC7c/Vqshut4IJoIn1RjMdoslfSyN84rNPIoI4dXoI9s3pzkM4Rri2GMag c34W5J46hlnptBr7BEva93OdYlI/9tumvjT7TiKc1IT5HCK75Wo1M1vy7sRCjMf5uYjP evGXbigJWI7/UzdmIAbrV6AmAJ5oIaQhr5NPd1oAkdnczgeBGdE7OKydI1k2pAhoPtso w/4LCzbQvaiurfUdHC5GsCvmNIAim/vBjjxNIX/coSVaLPh7lnX1Ww3uedkrieoW6djC VhRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305vbVXbwe5Kf41NZVQgvD1T11djPVmgVwxSP47KhMm/5DOQHyj TS2dL2BV+C/+NMGoVT0EGX8spDQfrfXIqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJykZRbBZc8vrfjOD1Pegl5r4tbq8CcyiZCsRqsUTu/x6176KLysv6Y0dCRBWWXVff/8g+Up4g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1db:: with SMTP id 27mr1562244pjd.106.1633987271743; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431? ([2406:e003:1018:b901:80b2:5c79:2266:e431]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j20sm9462785pgb.2.2021.10.11.14.21.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:21:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian E Carpenter To: Tools Team Discussion References: <6b806257-5ca0-d3cb-861d-a8c1a6ed430e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92724fcc-ec20-2108-32f4-eb682a1b1368@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 10:21:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6b806257-5ca0-d3cb-861d-a8c1a6ed430e@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] idnits and rfcdiff MIA? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:21:15 -0000 Also, https://www.ietf.org/links/ points to https://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ I did find https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff Regards Brian On 12-Oct-21 09:03, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > For a long time I've been using > > https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ > and > https://www.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/ > > Just recently they have started redirecting from the current tools to legacy versions at www6. > > Where are the current versions hiding? > > Regards > Brian > From nobody Mon Oct 11 14:26:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4443A09E1 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:26:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5z96ah6VHy-J for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BAE13A09DB for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 14:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19BLQG88077465 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:26:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1633987577; bh=kMIm0SUPB/llYA/S0IAV4RYyM31T3t1r2Zi1U8FFwvg=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=ARghkwbBZAXB+UmNwkBWfN6MNeFFpt0nvJLHTCDJliZu+fvZ68ivZltDwTbmCldZV Tem88+B8MswJkWL79ox8wBDHPq5xCBKr6XX8TwIXCr8006kXPSaIHKE+L5wV2QVdWR OuGPoLgGhBnjxcxbhPF4pYKvRixBGJIOzNHC/DgA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <961750a5-6fd7-752c-4312-09fb85b0d2c7@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 16:26:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Brian E Carpenter , Tools Team Discussion References: <6afd654d-4a57-81d7-b22b-58ce42cc9ae0@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <6afd654d-4a57-81d7-b22b-58ce42cc9ae0@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Missing diff? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 21:26:27 -0000 Yes, it should offer a one-click diff in this case. I'll add a ticket to cause it to do so. In the short meantime, when you have a url like you post below, you can transform it as so: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-hbh/history/ (which you can get to from where you started with a couple of clicks) or to https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-hbh RjS On 10/11/21 2:50 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Hi, > > Am I misremembering? I thought that pages like this: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-hbh-00 > > used to automatically include the diff between the previous (non-WG) draft and the WG -00 draft. Maybe that was a feature of the tools.ietf.org site that didn't survive the transfer? > > Regards > Brian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Oct 11 15:46:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFC83A0FD7 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MGFvTvOKe4w7 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 358EC3A0FE4 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26DEC41274CC for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1LDvEr3GcCzg for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BF1474112A50 for ; Mon, 11 Oct 2021 15:45:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 11:45:52 +1300 To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2021 22:46:05 -0000 Hi As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design = workshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and = user interfaces. As part of the preparation for that we have worked on = a detailed mockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker: = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-12.p= df This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing = list subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple = email addresses b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple = smaller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the = subsequent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being = hosted under other domains d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or = something in between e) subscribing to read-only lists Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow=E2=80=99s meeting, with the = main discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. Jay [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6EznPMjvPB= us8n4/ --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Oct 12 05:08:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF323A0A2C; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ft4SaGaPTbKG; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd36.google.com (mail-io1-xd36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A99EA3A0A22; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd36.google.com with SMTP id e144so23412233iof.3; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:08:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y/3qxHCoGevYCUhxOfjb7p1rV76xd+3B1lq88g650hk=; b=FwBTUf4CthI9ltJIevIloKgpAPUiZyKam5z7bim0SmDdTtkdMp7ex81+4+CYNPl5CF LWBK621K3w8A03RdNJvQTUABthTEl6AUuJJwaSlw3iHpAGZACt74Y9H2cu8ZJQZfpseP JGOFYcCjxYsie+oaYPOPaMO3sJpRpcjHLNYEq9VNpuCOl6SLpxtYCXaAx6hTuqZjm9BF 19RjmuqoTj0r576MpRbdkVkHVEPX9w/nn6ydwJYVZ1+5sIjCr1NeqPdhYQsFp7QunYux DETrkQ2r9lVnEKB6SD++9MlZ0P/q6lNkeQEGwq7eJ4kYH+ZUDFIKngazFExZa7Sv2eRg TR2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y/3qxHCoGevYCUhxOfjb7p1rV76xd+3B1lq88g650hk=; b=gepfVCjIjtzlmsrWqYwtCoGOEoNuLSNirey+4n3NQwSf3XR92q44ztJ/oijHmO5Bt8 xfCAbd1GO+pavm9tU9/r2d7d40cBS5lP5gJbVVI2jXjVRwB+dEIw1RFG9tpSBu3S98eT 03c7keNtslZzkSOxlhH4wjGlSImxqFoYeSF6TVxwhmX4QXQHWuHeEc2qlWmp220NUdnK 4wzBIpVKVlK3wzWvCMu4Il0IfcPGTOvnMQ2LM4Qhw4oA5JKikjK1ookHcJ5U58EFcjSf ZwVt95NeOgPvR9II7pi46qMygGGJ1PXSlcqAxp+Wsou47xNC+tc2Wjmf5TMHDZEYKQ1R s5Cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530h+TwKD+VS+enM+D9yxo8wz4PybMx+vmWXXlLdgDiUTOG8Yuwn +T0vFUlOBSvoiELFd3w2DiSkcF5qfBoWUdSKncqSudUmN+8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyb4k3SBSjNO82fr/w0vZ5+R/4YDlbYnXaRdZ/rzreb6erEBHvnlQyFvU0EHopWvt61id2618nMCpF7+cK9MiA= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:a619:: with SMTP id q25mr1539480ioi.144.1634040518273; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:08:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 08:08:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jay Daley Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3ee1205ce26b401" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:08:45 -0000 --000000000000a3ee1205ce26b401 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay, Just coincidentally I recently did a clean-up/garbage collection of my IETF list subscriptions, and it was somewhat of a laborious process, even when using the mailman feature that shows you what other lists you're on once you've logged into mailman for one of your subscriptions. This would have made it SO much simpler. You and the tools team are commended for looking out for ways to make things easier for the folks in the trenches .... Cheers, Andy On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:46 PM Jay Daley wrote: > Hi > > As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design > workshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and > user interfaces. As part of the preparation for that we have worked on a > detailed mockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker: > > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-12.= pdf > > This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: > > a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing > list subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple ema= il > addresses > b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple > smaller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above > c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the > subsequent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being host= ed > under other domains > d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or > something in between > e) subscribing to read-only lists > > > Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow=E2=80=99s meeting, with the main > discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. > > Jay > > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6EznPMjvP= Bus8n4/ > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000a3ee1205ce26b401 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Jay,

    Just coincidentally I recently did= a clean-up/garbage collection of my IETF list subscriptions, and it was so= mewhat of a laborious process,=C2=A0even when using the mailman feature tha= t shows you what other lists you're on once you've logged into mail= man for one of your subscriptions. This would have made it SO much simpler.= You and the tools team are commended for looking out for ways to make thin= gs easier for the=C2=A0folks in the trenches ....

    = Cheers,
    Andy


    On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:46 PM = Jay Daley <exec-director@ietf.= org> wrote:
    Hi

    As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design works= hops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and user int= erfaces.=C2=A0 As part of the preparation for that we have worked on a deta= iled mockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-1= 2.pdf

    This interface is intended to solve a number of issues:

    a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing list= subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple email add= resses
    b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple smal= ler lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above
    c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the subsequen= t effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being hosted under ot= her domains
    d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or some= thing in between
    e) subscribing to read-only lists


    Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow=E2=80=99s meeting, with the main d= iscussion expected to be at the planned workshop.

    Jay


    [1]=C2=A0 https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6EznPMjvPBus8n4/<= br>
    --
    Jay Daley
    IETF Executive Director
    exec-director@i= etf.org

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --000000000000a3ee1205ce26b401-- From nobody Tue Oct 12 05:24:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07473A0B79 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:24:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5oiIPjT11Xic for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F5D53A0B87 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 19CCOWka023277 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:32 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C7AA206237 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129EE20621C for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 19CCOV4l010298 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:32 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <0ade5a63-13f5-c5d2-c87d-ddce3d1e1d03@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:24:32 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:24:40 -0000 Le 12/10/2021 à 00:45, Jay Daley a écrit : > Hi > > As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design workshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and user interfaces. As part of the preparation for that we have worked on a detailed mockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-12.pdf > > This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: > > a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing list subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple email addresses > b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple smaller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above > c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the subsequent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being hosted under other domains > d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or something in between > e) subscribing to read-only lists > > > Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow’s meeting, with the main discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. There would be an advantage in a capability for smooth migrating of an email list from one name to another. Many email lists at IETF start with a preliminary name such as 'foo' and matures into a 'bar' WG stage; the difficulty with 'bar' is that currently it is impossible to change the name of the email list so the WG 'bar' ends with a 'foo' email list. Examples abound at IETF: 'shmoo' WG with 'manycouches' email list, 'ipwave' with 'its', and more. Ideally, the WG 'bar' would be served by 'bar' email list too, instead of 'foo'. There are many quirky ways in which this problem is currently addressed but all solutions are always creating confusions: automated mass migration, or mass requests of change of members' email addresses from old to new lists, dynamic setting of the [WG name] in the Subject, and more. People then routinely continue to talk about an old 'foo' and mean the new 'bar', look into directories like ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/[*], or like datatracker, for an old 'foo' even if only 'bar' is present, and more other confusions. ('bar' not to be confused with the bar in bar BoF :-) Alex Alex > > Jay > > > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6EznPMjvPBus8n4/ > From nobody Tue Oct 12 05:38:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672273A0C38 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:38:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Agk35pDBJZFf for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ECCE3A0C37 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 05:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 19CCcKXH010307 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:38:20 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F9C2206267 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:38:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668DF2061F6 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:38:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id 19CCcK1F020206 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:38:20 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <28c25477-9c75-eb59-c958-adac9287aaa2@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:38:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:38:28 -0000 Le 12/10/2021 à 14:08, Andrew G. Malis a écrit : > Jay, > > Just coincidentally I recently did a clean-up/garbage collection of my > IETF list subscriptions, and it was somewhat of a laborious > process, even when using the mailman feature that shows you what other > lists you're on once you've logged into mailman for one of your > subscriptions. This would have made it SO much simpler. You and the > tools team are commended for looking out for ways to make things easier > for the folks in the trenches .... Facing such difficulties of laborious processes others consider entire remakes. A complete replacing of mailman with something else would probably hurt, or be an opportunity. It depends on many factors that I dont know. Alex > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 6:46 PM Jay Daley > wrote: > > Hi > > As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of > design workshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail > management and user interfaces.  As part of the preparation for that > we have worked on a detailed mockup of a mail subscription interface > for Datatracker: > > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-12.pdf > > > This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: > > a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple > mailing list subscriptions and the various ways people do that using > multiple email addresses > b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or > multiple smaller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above > c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the > subsequent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being > hosted under other domains > d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, > or something in between > e) subscribing to read-only lists > > > Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow’s meeting, with the main > discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. > > Jay > > > [1] > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6EznPMjvPBus8n4/ > > > -- > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > exec-director@ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Tue Oct 12 06:58:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C463A13F0; 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Tue, 12 Oct 2021 06:58:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 06:58:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion , ietf-action@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000074755005ce283e8e" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Idnits moved? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:58:52 -0000 --00000000000074755005ce283e8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I'm experiencing 404 Page Not Found when trying to run idnits from the Community tools web portal. Regards, Greg --00000000000074755005ce283e8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,
    I'm experiencing 404 Page Not= Found when trying to run idnits=C2=A0from the Community tools web portal.<= /div>

    Regards,
    Greg
    --00000000000074755005ce283e8e-- From nobody Tue Oct 12 07:03:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6967B3A1418 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:03:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOco0Hb5DqJF for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13D3A3A0A10 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 07:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19CE353j074572 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:03:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634047386; bh=eaPTq9lBpLLKOlOmeUrt53StvLkzK+CGXv6i18Z0uZY=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=HklsDOFB2PO/a77pz5le/CIKrmeh3e952bVts1Y8IWMheXPcoPkwNM70i2tCEMVah 1gFZy0+vHU4GWqWQZSHrxrHK3xrgxOkA5U2Cp+MfExSunR3yM7qXVVitNL+BcfJNrN JduCtbJ/eC8qxBV0cqzZ/pmuvdLkXJkhV3o5l18k= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------rRhFrv5u0g4PusUyxKoh6Kwc" Message-ID: <7c414c80-1da6-1d21-87bd-8f7746a743f6@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 09:03:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Greg Mirsky , tools-discuss References: From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Idnits moved? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:03:17 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------rRhFrv5u0g4PusUyxKoh6Kwc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Greg - I've reported this to Glen and it should be fixed shortly. RjS On 10/12/21 8:58 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi, > I'm experiencing 404 Page Not Found when trying to run idnits from the > Community tools web portal. > > Regards, > Greg > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------rRhFrv5u0g4PusUyxKoh6Kwc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Thanks Greg - I've reported this to Glen and it should be fixed shortly.

    RjS

    On 10/12/21 8:58 AM, Greg Mirsky wrote:
    Hi,
    I'm experiencing 404 Page Not Found when trying to run idnits from the Community tools web portal.

    Regards,
    Greg

    ___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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    --------------rRhFrv5u0g4PusUyxKoh6Kwc-- From nobody Tue Oct 12 15:06:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5B13A0BDC for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzwn6dnbNtr5 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4363D3A0BDA for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19CM64Q9075097 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:06:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634076365; bh=inMZB/HmUlraIsHECGkoJ3+zQlr5wnsd6r+QnefOvbo=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=HztjGsTHk2maujG+oHZZ1hgp658YlK+8kC1CphoYsyG4BMelKn50LAyh9K6wXaJLb PV9V99pKDJZbFZMzQKirEDeRsvFIvJ7qVummZvDVswx/1CkoL658zz4v0T+SIKRbvk ckPGxWZdJVLAKvc0ZiBTu/Dj9tcryQyz/ESQfmbo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <5e629cc4-6ebe-924b-29e1-46d17794e93e@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:05:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss References: <0d8472cb-179a-fb4c-ff7a-d6ec418b50d4@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: Performance oriented codesprint before IETF 112 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:06:12 -0000 We are starting to prepare for the sprints in a couple of weeks. If you can participate, please join us on codesprints@ietf.org. Lars is looking for more people to test his rework of the sprint developer docker image. I've posted links to the first set of performance data we'll be using, and will be sending more as this week progresses. Even (and maybe especially) if you've not helped at a codesprint before, please consider taking some time for this sprint. Our primary coordination will happen on the 27th, as noted below. RjS On 10/7/21 2:43 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > Given the doodle results, my plan is to have the primary sprint 27 Oct > 1600-2000 UTC. People can join or leave as convenient. Coordinates > will be sent soon. > > I will also have a conference set up for 28 Oct at those same times > for followup and for anyone who can't participate on the 27th. > > I plan to make resources for analyzing performance available well > before the sprint. Future communication on that topic will occur on > the codesprints@ list. (If you are interested, please subscribe). > > RjS > > On 9/29/21 5:23 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: >> We would like to hold a codesprint before IETF 112 focused on >> datatracker performance. >> >> We have been improving the instrumentation of the datatracker, and >> plan to provide quite a bit of information that will help us focus on >> places that will help us most. These include statistic from the >> database engine itself, and instrumentation that measures which views >> are getting the most use, suffering the worst cumulative performance, >> and how those views use the database. >> >> I expect much of the work will be verifying that the database has the >> right indices, adjusting views to make better use of the ORM (such as >> prefetching data (and not to prefetch too _much_ data), and adjusting >> models where the current models are proving to be problematic. >> From nobody Tue Oct 12 15:32:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C64C3A0D10 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4r_QkmphFM04 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D4963A0D08 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19CMWD96080406 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:32:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634077934; bh=dtvg9KXevs601I/ZQg9Gs9NstiVCL4LQQEx8AJ10ZJI=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=l+YY7bvtha6DRtUq6xhNDywA0ByOA6CpzGh7s+BmnNhP2yy5ofFuhmwseJGnVz2jC FdUhF5Bvd818XJ5ht0dMIRSRAgTqs98+su15fTg3t9JF6k0cHvva3PbC4zdb76bM++ 9Qlj3+GzBcLlBvaTuoYh0E/Xg6U2+bGSWAjAGxbc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:32:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Tools Workshop : Mail Processing either 22 or 23 Nov. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2021 22:32:21 -0000 The tools team will be holding a series of workshops focused on different aspects of our applications and environment. The first will focus on Mail Processing We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, and discuss the following: *    IDN support         What a Mailman 3 migration would require         What would be different with Mailman 3         what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain *    Spam abatement         Virus scanning         Spamassassin         Postconfirm         Use of mailman’s mechanisms *    Ability to moderate a given participant *    DMARC rewriting *    Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) We are planning to hold this first workshop 1800-2100 UTC on either 22 or 23 Nov. If you would like to participate, please add yourself to the doodle at https://doodle.com/poll/2whrpnyxn3iavpr5. The workshop will be recorded and made available later, but the majority of it will be discussion, and there's no substitute for being part of that discussion. RjS From nobody Wed Oct 13 14:34:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C1073A1286 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rhj_lehfaGkQ for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA3AB3A11C8 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19DLXfug039711 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:33:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634160821; bh=x6TDEludxzwg3IqPZCJhH1qJwHxb0+xUlz8FFMYeITY=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=oDr4pyRXk1cDBQa1X1RoJotOT+S25YhU5ATeB7DqtMMhuf1ytp0Soo7hNokpiAAjs /QFkurulxiktK2MrZARYwVgE3GzbzI3zstq5xXu47OFgsQ9AfX0ogySAfdhWV9crv7 cCDDBGDpVxT0NTRrDZxcOIFqYAWry/rYteA8AYlc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <89040b20-91f3-02b7-dd3e-7adb84b0c17f@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 16:33:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Dates added: 6 and 7 Dec (was Re: Tools Workshop : Mail Processing either 22 or 23 Nov.) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2021 21:34:12 -0000 Through my oversight, I set this to days that Glen could not make, and it would be a better workshop if he were there to contribute. The doodle at https://doodle.com/poll/2whrpnyxn3iavpr5 has been updated. If you've already answered, please return and indicate your availability on the new dates and accept my apologies for the inconvenience. I didn't remove the old dates - if we have a group that is overwhelmingly more available on them, I'll work out proceeding without Glen, but hopefully the other dates will work as well for everyone. RjS On 10/12/21 5:32 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > The tools team will be holding a series of workshops focused on > different aspects of our applications and environment. > > The first will focus on Mail Processing > > We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, > and discuss the following: > > > *    IDN support >         What a Mailman 3 migration would require >         What would be different with Mailman 3 >         what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain > *    Spam abatement >         Virus scanning >         Spamassassin >         Postconfirm >         Use of mailman’s mechanisms > *    Ability to moderate a given participant > *    DMARC rewriting > *    Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) > > We are planning to hold this first workshop 1800-2100 UTC on either 22 > or 23 Nov. > > If you would like to participate, please add yourself to the doodle at > https://doodle.com/poll/2whrpnyxn3iavpr5. > > The workshop will be recorded and made available later, but the > majority of it will be discussion, and there's no substitute for being > part of that discussion. > > RjS > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Wed Oct 13 20:12:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375493A0B08 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 20:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Mh+q59dd; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=pWNwwXhG Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jgbNoNCgtI8T for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 20:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFA223A0AFA for ; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 20:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24347 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2021 03:12:02 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5f19.6167a002.k2110; bh=cqlYD8tSKM+tWI+aY4j2IIJXeojCz7WQGoWLg/4C1Gc=; b=Mh+q59ddv2H6NAt3HlEpqK2ZzRw00fwDbLdMsMTfZxQq/FFJV/dWzGLu8FDanVBQvrmdcisEMbloNcBl/+4MGKGOHyMN8DQJYmxcfABb5qBnUNRwPoyQiQmtMolGY3Q4VdSpneHBi9rT9953HFfbtVPkM9EPcZVIOOeJSYUdvwoyjRSuYE4V1aLwl1Seb4+nAbDBzrSzI0FuhXNHSQ70eXxKw2gfRo3ww/AKTD1yU7tDi1M1WN54AcZRdxx1hklLji/Kw/vh2U/3gbgHYLQNikbRPNPMhoXsFmkV/CUNt3wL/Lq7cypap160/EdXlXijA13fPezso7UvA93hST3XTg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=5f19.6167a002.k2110; bh=cqlYD8tSKM+tWI+aY4j2IIJXeojCz7WQGoWLg/4C1Gc=; b=pWNwwXhGzKGiBWkhdRxvgmwXrbVGtfjV0qH8ksWYKIFRCttQHyTrj62CtkuihYGq0FfLwuu9HO7GWJ827pYHXiiq/cK8eSCYCiZ06ZqiPF/nqzkxl61hU11mJ0fILgv7WG1eWQ2SPRhiTI7C3UpJVNAzUR8SV+zbI8QM80QbKKcq5p73Whal8SCRrjGc0KvUAIsZg5leAx9FCpLg83jY+DSy76qTDi4kDIFlamFMo0ylmg7nBaXUIWciqRihO19Ys1b8yiF4xnkoTPS38xmN9I+zBnOqcLzfbdxghi4OUTox4HUch42xrG0eqmONUJww6m5lZgpQrRMH2tTOsxpfXg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 14 Oct 2021 03:12:02 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B56272A51027; Wed, 13 Oct 2021 23:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: 13 Oct 2021 23:12:01 -0400 Message-Id: <20211014031201.B56272A51027@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: rjsparks@nostrum.com In-Reply-To: <89040b20-91f3-02b7-dd3e-7adb84b0c17f@nostrum.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Dates added: 6 and 7 Dec (was Re: Tools Workshop : Mail Processing either 22 or 23 Nov.) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 03:12:11 -0000 It appears that Robert Sparks said: >> *    IDN support >>         What a Mailman 3 migration would require >>         What would be different with Mailman 3 >>         what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain By IDN support, do you mean EAI mail with UTF-8 on both sides of an e-mail address, or just IDNs in URLs and the like? If you mean the former, RFC 6783 offers some advice but nowhere near enough. The old rule of thumb that the first 90% of the work takes the first 90% of the time, and then the other 90% of the work takes the other 90% of the time definitely applies here. R's, John From nobody Thu Oct 14 07:17:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99D133A16C7 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tLceeS0Fm_EV for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF7583A16C5 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 07:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19EEHCli009420 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:17:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634221034; bh=/e+MGT6yd6CK3Nt3JBvOIw5ur2hSWvKYIVBn0inYmng=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=ZNz9G274+5MhAjgrZWaUF/DxXJRLFLfBlpkpidMsh0/vJKx0/44nhx8kPXV7uI6pe AdJX7Na53Oj87x3sVjNaqUX7WxU9812RB3Py/WrpBmYbeDlmPrFKK7wiOE1ly6NKOO gpFjDA3K9rpdX3ylBgEnHXIPWdo/SNmXprJPwsmg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <7b838a0c-c914-b432-0eee-8e6952c6cd58@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:17:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, John R Levine References: <20211014031201.B56272A51027@ary.qy> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <20211014031201.B56272A51027@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Dates added: 6 and 7 Dec (was Re: Tools Workshop : Mail Processing either 22 or 23 Nov.) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 14:17:25 -0000 On 10/13/21 10:12 PM, John Levine wrote: > It appears that Robert Sparks said: >>> *    IDN support >>>         What a Mailman 3 migration would require >>>         What would be different with Mailman 3 >>>         what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain > By IDN support, do you mean EAI mail with UTF-8 on both sides of an e-mail address, or just > IDNs in URLs and the like? > > If you mean the former, RFC 6783 offers some advice but nowhere near enough. > > The old rule of thumb that the first 90% of the work takes the first 90% of the > time, and then the other 90% of the work takes the other 90% of the time > definitely applies here. Indeed, and yes, we mean the former - it's a project that's had action on and off for several years. Its time to look again to see if we can finish taking the step. I hope you'll be able to be at the workshop! > > R's, > John > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Oct 14 08:22:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60D363A1717; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:22:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lE2JfK51j3bN; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2A323A0A78; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HVY6N5DPYz2xL0; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:22:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 17:22:04 +0200 Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 655917724.120665-ef2ecb7f556201092c2b3e314c32c624 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <162203242344.29582.10148358869813812866@ietfa.amsl.com> <5056A810-C337-4F59-ADEA-01AFCCBBDBE3@vigilsec.com> To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] bibxml8 and http:// (Fwd: Lars Eggert's No Objection on draft-ietf-core-senml-versions-03: (with COMMENT)) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:22:16 -0000 I finally put a workaround into kramdown-rfc2629 (version 1.5.9). As usual,=20 gem update kramdown-rfc2629 and get fewer (valid!) complaints from Lars :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-09-30, at 13:42, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > Bump. >=20 > This is now coming up again and again in IESG reviews. > I know that the full solution is imminent=E2=80=A6 > But maybe someone can have some mercy until then. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On 2021-05-26, at 17:34, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> On 2021-05-26, at 17:14, Russ Housley wrote: >>>=20 >>> There is an RFP out for updated to bibxml. Hopefully this is easily = addressed under that effort. >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99m looking forward to this. >>=20 >> In the meantime, maybe someone could place that =E2=80=9Cs=E2=80=9D = before the colon in line 220 of bibxml8/index.cgi=E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Russ >>>=20 >>>> On May 26, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> In a recent IESG ballot, Lars Eggert noted that bibxlm8 is still = using http:// URLs for the reference target: >>>>=20 >>>> return ("\n".join([f">>> f" = target=3D'http://www.iana.org/assignments/{self.reference_number}'>", >>>> (Line 219, 220 of bibxml8/index.cgi). >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with him that this should now be https:// >>>>=20 >>>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: Lars Eggert via Datatracker >>>>> Subject: Lars Eggert's No Objection on = draft-ietf-core-senml-versions-03: (with COMMENT) >>>>> Date: 2021-05-26 at 14:33:43 CEST >>>>> To: "The IESG" >>>>> Cc: draft-ietf-core-senml-versions@ietf.org, core-chairs@ietf.org, = core@ietf.org, jaime@iki.fi, jaime@iki.fi >>>>> Resent-From: >>>>> Resent-To: cabo@tzi.org, jaime@iki.fi, marco.tiloca@ri.se >>>>> Reply-To: Lars Eggert >>>>> Message-Id: = <162203242344.29582.10148358869813812866@ietfa.amsl.com> >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> These URLs in the document can probably be converted to HTTPS: >>>>> * http://www.iana.org/assignments/senml >>>>=20 >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug = reports. >>>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>>=20 >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 14 08:59:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7333A0B4F for ; 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14 Oct 2021 15:59:30 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id BDC542A57C4B; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FFB2A57C2C; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 11:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: 14 Oct 2021 11:59:29 -0400 Message-ID: <79dd3b8-dba1-9e8f-5945-1836c07b15@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Robert Sparks" , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: <7b838a0c-c914-b432-0eee-8e6952c6cd58@nostrum.com> References: <20211014031201.B56272A51027@ary.qy> <7b838a0c-c914-b432-0eee-8e6952c6cd58@nostrum.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] EAI, threat or menace, was Dates added: 6 and 7 Dec X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:59:38 -0000 On Thu, 14 Oct 2021, Robert Sparks wrote: >> By IDN support, do you mean EAI mail with UTF-8 on both sides of an e-mail >> address, ... > Indeed, and yes, we mean the former - it's a project that's had action on and > off for several years. Its time to look again to see if we can finish taking > the step. FYI, ICANN is also planning to add EAI support to their Mailman lists, although I am reasonably sure they have no clue how hard it is. It is also on the roadmap for Mailman 3 although I doubt they will do anything soon unless someone gives it to them. I can say more about this in December but my strong advice, having been doing EAI work for the UASG for several years, is first to enable EAI on the IETF's regular mail system. In theory this is just turning on a postfix flag, In practice, things break and we will learn interesting things from what breaks and what is involved in fixing it. While the smoke clears we can figure out whether it is plausble to EAI-ize our mailing lists. The first 90% of the work is enabling EAI features on inbound and outbound mail and the archive which I would expect to be fairly straightforward. The other 90% is that if you want your EAI support to be useful, there has to be some way for EAI and ASCII users to be on the same list, to arrange to deliver messages from EAI users to ASCII mail systems that do not handle EAI mail, and make it at least somewhat possible to reply, preferably without making things worse for people at systems like Gmail which have ASCII addreses but can send and receive EAI mail. The EAI working group tried to solve the gateway problem for a decade and failed, so it seems unlikely that we will do much better. (Needless to say, any solution starting "You can just ..." has been tried and failed already.) R's, John From nobody Fri Oct 15 07:16:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0923A088C for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.985 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, PDS_FRNOM_TODOM_NAKED_TO=1.5, PDS_FROM_NAME_TO_DOMAIN=1.999, RCVD_IN_XBL=0.375, SPF_FAIL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, TVD_SPACE_RATIO_MINFP=0.121, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ay00nnVnClX for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta0.tapglove.com (bizcloud-go.tapglove.com [139.59.32.166]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79AC33A0879 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:07 -0700 (PDT) From: ietf.org To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: 15 Oct 2021 14:58:26 +0200 Message-ID: <20211015145825.D4CC38A27F7AB7FC@nttv6.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] =?UTF-8?B?5Zyo5oKo55qE55S15a2Q6YKu5Lu25biQ5oi35Lit5qOA5rWL5Yiw5byC5bi45rS75YqoIA==?=tools-discuss@ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:16:16 -0000

    亲爱的用户&nbs= p;tools-discuss@ietf.org

    请确认&= #36825;封电子邮件是否有= 928;，因为邮件一直在反= ;弹

    确= 5748;是否有效

    谢谢<= /span>

    From nobody Fri Oct 15 07:17:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DCD3A088D for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RjkokJ1EfUdu for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5F513A0879 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4HW7Wj646Pz688jd for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:12:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from ytopeml500001.china.huawei.com (7.184.16.223) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:16:31 +0200 Received: from ytopeml500001.china.huawei.com (7.184.16.223) by ytopeml500001.china.huawei.com (7.184.16.223) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:16:30 -0400 Received: from ytopeml500001.china.huawei.com ([7.184.16.223]) by ytopeml500001.china.huawei.com ([7.184.16.223]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 10:16:30 -0400 From: Bill Gage To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Daily Dose not updating Thread-Index: AdfBQKelAccJYlFkQkOccZFy6gspdw== Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:16:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2d15cdf136254915a7c2f20fbd715d42@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.124.94.119] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Daily Dose not updating X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:16:40 -0000 I notice that the Daily Dose page (https://tools.ietf.org/dailydose/) has n= ot updated since 2021-10-04. I also realise that work is underway to migrat= e some elements of to other IETF platforms and that some e= lements of will no longer be maintained and may be decommi= ssioned. Personally, I find the information on Daily Dose to be an invaluable summar= y of activities across the IETF organisation. For me, the one-stop source o= f information eliminates the need to check multiple sites and/or mailing li= sts. The one-click access to document content is also helpful, avoiding the= multi-step navigation required to access documents via other sources. In the future, will the Daily Dose be maintained or migrated to another sit= e (e.g. under DataTracker)? Thanks ...=20 /bill From nobody Fri Oct 15 07:25:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099A23A0898 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KCBnHwGzD-AW for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 096CC3A087F for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 07:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19FEPmdn056196 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:25:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634307948; bh=b2ZKBRkG7RPCzlHPXqU18zsEYv65DEboPHMIti8QU3o=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=XI4ZtiPTRR+gOKdPyTQ1giDmDqzk+8Yz0ECsnX85T3J+smKRQZVm7Ub+RABG3YLCG 8fu/iAPw7gvYKtXFNWuTu4cvurKUXfACmc8kIuUePqz6z/o8B2GPJkIxXz6o8Aj5DZ V8UJ7V4zpsdvijCL/7V4vm/V6Nq+NAZv/X8vTdYo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 09:25:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <2d15cdf136254915a7c2f20fbd715d42@huawei.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <2d15cdf136254915a7c2f20fbd715d42@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Daily Dose not updating X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 14:25:57 -0000 Yes, we plan to restore and maintain dailydose. RjS On 10/15/21 9:16 AM, Bill Gage wrote: > I notice that the Daily Dose page (https://tools.ietf.org/dailydose/) has not updated since 2021-10-04. I also realise that work is underway to migrate some elements of to other IETF platforms and that some elements of will no longer be maintained and may be decommissioned. > > Personally, I find the information on Daily Dose to be an invaluable summary of activities across the IETF organisation. For me, the one-stop source of information eliminates the need to check multiple sites and/or mailing lists. The one-click access to document content is also helpful, avoiding the multi-step navigation required to access documents via other sources. > > In the future, will the Daily Dose be maintained or migrated to another site (e.g. under DataTracker)? > > Thanks ... > > /bill > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Fri Oct 15 16:08:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E1E3A0E0A for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5CNU9Yu8_tAn for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA1353A0DE9 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id n7so9511140iod.0 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:04:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tcDzyvPVS0KxEyMCnD5vqAZDnepctVpM7TNaCMlhWg0=; b=PsuC/s6DY6Q6F2hTtF1sB1GDqQxoRLZfAVaPmm5AMLX/k1br4aS8VJwJubs4T5JIqx TUEhVwD+bZSqzlWJE0DTCQh1/mec7axgO1/V9N2no/JT9UbRcyflXr+Mnkj1K6xDoEwh AI/qztrh+J2cIdmqKTYrCRVuSMKK8xrZn5VEJjEXl/kINlvcyaz+tG1+0PtAkRfojnSu M7P8gYyJNmtuonlpBbZSfAturF9CvfTE2R5JrJnMtGOfuaKHlIaKbErGLoUkLyrl5p9j lxs+FZKcgprbwiZD52d0RaXHx9rI5dGVglsfLLztFC8k8ZqiOrjjU4CDzd42mzSL/iwv 8Ccg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tcDzyvPVS0KxEyMCnD5vqAZDnepctVpM7TNaCMlhWg0=; b=wz+2w0p4s96ZyhUzg4WzCdILjpIMusVyAZxX5CutjR/YCxvChvMpio+/4VaIbD7iwp MgB47HPt61BEVgR9ZAeRE4PaCLGaKd4Fc8lVBM+5Jd888Jh9NYkfG7tS7SvQLinvYR8W jcj7PZzqGLj9eUB//exDRtcZ3wKsk+PlLaQGg/QtIVyL5hGMW/3FtTqXXjm8AKT4m1qt te+rC8Sn9DjNHf8PRVk1DEOuUv7BAJFUYzjlUP7zTGKoUmCDvES5MP3tszspfadoNRcF SReFwRafimgam4ajy0DBytOV8KL6J6hkqh6z1Yd8gZkwamppEjnxwgz3BEp38cZ4w6O/ Ypzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532uxzAkbwrKB11BE7BtKn5Up9XVkkZ57ruVurJoOb/M+wpLDqoz Tf22N1w/CWznpy2Tdh+yjYtBgdQVCnVcBG6nesnCBCnh7Nk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyze776HkOTaoQnLqNfZJ4i/chtn6JXogFWaSbERL+E2rIUkqyS54E7yzBX7wYiTB/x5QxmlZjfkswmQvUKqFg= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c309:: with SMTP id t9mr5754192iof.50.1634339048687; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:04:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:03:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070a1fe05ce6c36a3" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 23:08:49 -0000 --00000000000070a1fe05ce6c36a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and could go just fine to the chairs only. -Ekr --00000000000070a1fe05ce6c36a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I would like to propose we don't send emails sayi= ng that sessions
    have been scheduled to the WG list. These are ju= st clutter and
    could go just fine to the chairs only.

    -Ekr

    --00000000000070a1fe05ce6c36a3-- From nobody Fri Oct 15 16:58:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAF03A11AF for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ud7qk_JHb_qM for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C9F13A11AB for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 16:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HWNWc5PLNz2xK3; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:58:20 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:58:20 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> References: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 23:58:28 -0000 On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and > could go just fine to the chairs only. (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) +1 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Fri Oct 15 17:13:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A593A1221 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l3fvc_k8HqP3 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EF673A121D for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id n8so48054192lfk.6 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:13:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tnniQ2OwR72PLgHS+BaxJ2FSm71j7WmF3TLpb7HTyjM=; b=TUuUfYOR3clm/Tp2pvN5EBDGMQfKQFi3tRvOfss+BlP1cRA+CPK5kyf/0+qJePd5TU K9CDrxGLv0RNWLU4qo6nvTz+Za+dayjHTOl88+5rER3cmCPzH7lcKP2VbjJAocMvkJxu Qbtp+cmCBYuuQKS8VnLgLj1su4ekXFF7XjZY3vNgQva57XeQhMnOLy977HR8UXK3yjIO ICD0m7dIPmNif4vcvSlHi1AyiYDSMUxUgTYJ1UBN+L9cD8U5CJPv5FNPBtp05JoqSN6C G/r21PUSWo5s1vcj6iEsiTG8q+HlyZMtOqKM+Nf1772LPHoVX350TB2/425FE4n+euSy rhvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tnniQ2OwR72PLgHS+BaxJ2FSm71j7WmF3TLpb7HTyjM=; b=6PJWSncbbLzt5gOFT82fELBVTFOKmmP5rslFPj9qdMcZ2nIs1/zQssDkYWNORJF4xl dB++xNNS84SVuKIL3LeMPsQGEgp8V82Ar6fXWhsgSnlOFDEpsycy5TdAuYS5GVqw1Z7J ssuk8CbPZY9D5Fpkiu1zi6XPbI+NVfysgAMp0VzDwEEdXGqaK6AdQ6eeqkr6Kn/wT5kq Ubf8Ch/jVddLqPQ0iHqpf0ZTUwNuE0XckzdK4eQYFS8CgJ/ZiUu22TGKdiSoKl8Sq5Zp hehsd3knOWTZfZKiLpD9hIlpNaa1xfon2K6cg6xVI1CD86eN3/Z0nr5OmyOdyD14Pk90 Axjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Qe21W729fWNRllzZxNMeAUZBJHXflbvOqobfHTeJBVaIuD3Xe hebdL5X52Ai21hlxw4FD1lIn5rU+2aPp+u6YAlI9KP41 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJylLYnPXwjS1iuA+xFFiVjMOmlXY5M/0h6vdFg7zm3WWCSK5alrzWDkTnFI5h+wnfmuj2I5VMqRyTaiUwJQHE0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:aa17:: with SMTP id bf23mr16193584ljb.10.1634343223873; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:13:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 20:13:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cd8a305ce6d2f8e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 00:13:51 -0000 --0000000000004cd8a305ce6d2f8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually the case. tim On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions > > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and > > could go just fine to the chairs only. > > (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) > > +1 > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --0000000000004cd8a305ce6d2f8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I= think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to ietf-a= nnounce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually the case.= =C2=A0
    tim

    <= /div>
    O= n Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
    On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Resco= rla <ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; wrote:
    >
    > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions<= br> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and
    > could go just fine to the chairs only.

    (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:)

    +1

    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --0000000000004cd8a305ce6d2f8e-- From nobody Fri Oct 15 17:47:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199C53A1353 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:47:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LC41vRUfvemZ for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B7E53A134C for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HWPcZ5Djfz2xLJ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 02:47:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DDFF33F4-7A23-4005-872D-FEDF58C739AA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 02:47:42 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss Message-Id: References: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> To: Tim Wicinski X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 00:47:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DDFF33F4-7A23-4005-872D-FEDF58C739AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The chair is going to send an email to the WG list with more details = anyway. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:13, Tim Wicinski wrote: >=20 >=20 > I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to = ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually = the case.=20 >=20 > tim >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann > wrote: > On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla > wrote: > >=20 > > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions > > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and > > could go just fine to the chairs only. >=20 > (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) >=20 > +1 >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = --Apple-Mail=_DDFF33F4-7A23-4005-872D-FEDF58C739AA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 The = chair is going to send an email to the WG list with more details = anyway.

    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


    On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:13, Tim Wicinski = <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


    I think folks = are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to ietf-announce, = which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually the = case. 

    tim


    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten = Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
    On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric = Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
    >
    > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that = sessions
    > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and
    > could go just fine to the chairs only.

    (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:)

    +1

    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

    ___________________________________________________________
    = Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y142sm5947198pfc.169.2021.10.15.18.32.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:32:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Eric Rescorla , tools-discuss References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <30fe1406-74eb-dd8e-1900-9f519085db88@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:32:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:32:55 -0000 On 16-Oct-21 12:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and > could go just fine to the chairs only. My life has been better since I directed these to Local Folders/Junk. 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I just don't think it's that useful to get individual notifications of WG scheduling. If you want to know what's been scheduled look at the agenda. -Ekr > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions >> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and >> > could go just fine to the chairs only. >> >> (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) >> >> +1 >> >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000bf3b5605ce6e9cfe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:13 PM Tim W= icinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

    I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list = subscribes to ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not= usually the case.

    I'm= not assuming that. I just don't think it's that useful to get indi= vidual notifications of WG scheduling. If you want to know what's been = scheduled look at the agenda.

    -Ekr

    <= /div>


    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
    On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:0= 3, Eric Rescorla <ekr@= rtfm.com> wrote:
    >
    > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions<= br> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and
    > could go just fine to the chairs only.

    (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:)

    +1

    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --000000000000bf3b5605ce6e9cfe-- From nobody Fri Oct 15 19:02:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C24893A15C9 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRE56S235XWc for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60B553A1582 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id w12-20020a056830410c00b0054e7ceecd88so273516ott.2 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jrXl1JSIxpFPrros75IeeOGa30G0jgQ/qwJlupMEA7o=; b=25AWyLz1hbA5cTYVCIrlAsKmZECYlm9NQSDDMTvPkcGZ9gw+aGsdoDD0wd9NrIQE2L NEUcMDqyC3ZiWtjm64mE2idDfduZG31YYYkuoEuQ//fpDRCQplQJZxSzXxuUr1Lc7swO n6Qi+iVxuEEoeCqgq+gEKOogHnYkP7T4CEj946lwDLedRoSATFoSvvWhogVoiB/vzupe WIkcFNHJjUe1h2lCU45hHTjCpjQ27Ea8sINjwinJgSlRka+2yPZW+A3V8Ksd285OpUIH MU1P4yz+q8Evo0mSlffV99tVBvu7wF8ym4cZSqlYma/qPGdCEXuBKa+XBepGSMVg78Bp Fc0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jrXl1JSIxpFPrros75IeeOGa30G0jgQ/qwJlupMEA7o=; b=4g/BhNiolRhyuC/oMezHqKrvrx22VkOxskZ7+u+sZN+hMZJMajCIxVjatV1y5K6RPJ 7dWaWKlXu51p6vLzUXhgUte8tmD9q0NilfcJ2i3ZN3zJVpnK9ksYyTAjkqoq4hjIwPg7 5lF1aFaT2m5U0GX4+ylxTOI9+SyBsWXYAUz0TJ+v0P42BDgJwz/9K84utWt6OfXvQvui uIXmcz/MD87d+BpMlW4n8ghpYAhBTLnFBagO0B5heLa/U1aNlgxAKVQl5Oxy1psAkoMd nmEt6LeXpE17gKUXhahFDAK0oWc2dUQNgqJ+73FQTbLWjakl3ZuFxI17e09hwsgCrCyg l9MQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532rOaTVyLkHR6ZhLr7o1bg9NvirB62T48oEJDjWGc6oypUg4TTb MeHxaRlTgWXHKPj1wQKO5XKK1USZZ6Ti/Lcn0PdhNTD8S/ouWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydd4QMr5SZNL4soqtfBJWUGTzkuopx2WbrIs+kgWauEfAKNJuOV9qb1Bb/xT4+GH5O7l8Igpz9wMtaKxISZqI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:57d:: with SMTP id f29mr11262457otc.285.1634349677401; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 19:01:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2021 22:00:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Tim Wicinski , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f5ea8b05ce6eaf37" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 02:01:32 -0000 --000000000000f5ea8b05ce6eaf37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't want to see these on ietf-announce either. We can look at the meeting agenda to see what's been scheduled. There's no utility to getting these notifications via email. Maybe it's useful for the working group chairs to see when their specific meeting was scheduled? On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 9:56 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:13 PM Tim Wicinski wrote: > >> >> I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to >> ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually th= e >> case. >> > > I'm not assuming that. I just don't think it's that useful to get > individual notifications of WG scheduling. If you want to know what's bee= n > scheduled look at the agenda. > > -Ekr > > >> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >>> On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> > >>> > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions >>> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and >>> > could go just fine to the chairs only. >>> >>> (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >>> datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000f5ea8b05ce6eaf37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I don't want to see these on ietf-announce either. We = can look at the meeting agenda to see what's been scheduled. There'= s no utility to getting these notifications via email. Maybe it's usefu= l for the working group chairs to see when their specific meeting was sched= uled?

    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 9:56 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 5:13 PM Tim Wicinski = <tjw.ietf@gmail.= com> wrote:

    I th= ink folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to ietf-anno= unce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually the case.
    =

    I'm not assuming that. I j= ust don't think it's that useful to get individual notifications of= WG scheduling. If you want to know what's been scheduled look at the a= genda.

    -Ekr

    =


    On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bor= mann <cabo@tzi.org= > wrote:
    On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Resco= rla <ekr@rtfm.com&= gt; wrote:
    >
    > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions<= br> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and
    > could go just fine to the chairs only.

    (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:)

    +1

    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --000000000000f5ea8b05ce6eaf37-- From nobody Fri Oct 15 21:07:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 183FF3A0BF0; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6927wx5emran; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D54C3A0BED; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id oa12-20020a17090b1bcc00b0019f715462a8so8722161pjb.3; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lkKp+fWpOc26YkUXhSTpKGdADc5IDg/MLVpOtx0qav0=; b=UUSIAI0kTSaXwKjvrD5DCoClTgjkZ7uQ6rE81sGSLat64A0cUtjGCDJyHUpTb/55qp Hvh+0E7LxndVkudW9IsMVI3SgurNp/1+saII8e4ND91vXVLsbO/TLlewnbwt0+JkSMDj CJiP4Qml7U+ZGUVaHznu7M4xaNt79TmndjNPokrLq25gKAYGYLXvb7KOOHi5OFa2aXCk c+Gr3vg6OtAUdCGXxDBhqPrI4/nGB3V9NpGk6OMRNZ4heGMuQdlkIBV+qpGb4pQD3F1V Bn06dnzrlQOXoNeXowHm9nePxnP3zXviRgmm+RZefh58epUNrHGjhQOvinnXwKkT178i jdDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lkKp+fWpOc26YkUXhSTpKGdADc5IDg/MLVpOtx0qav0=; b=s0pWQMpcAB1bl3uSuCS16eWvhzwCS6Iy1cZzo0VkWi1kRxt5aXjIVximw6DKo7lcie UIPUApmt1r75ykA5w1amQoP/cQcxfs6603Zl4QQGiEHFYrXHpXA5e/FRLApJYP2dBXKJ Q789xYRo1wB3TWtyQxV2jgPo2YrM0HYs2yK3rsnLbpikNd+gfQw3fc8tr9i6Il09H2l8 Zvg7Cp4dFPoeP3PYPXuwROvUC2GI0X0Dp1x4OQbI54xSSTEOJvlAZJpf7gNw3kz64F4s Vm5sklUi9KRczbznlqDEtCVDewTbeOHhAIRfdWlMVW/1dvTrvY1/EL3OdtRVLo/YOG52 6evw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532IenO+MlmZS8KBwB9mwsQ3LtBuJ76uhhXW9Rhd4l9Ht1/fMXNk zvJrSAhzM5uPuExpiLN9Wn6+ddlIR1KK8Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz8FKNwSCvbY4K/CVeE3mUh75QfapWxQMIutb5Eg/H+a16NA5Z/BEaRrb7fwnAsHoEvVrGiqA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1649:: with SMTP id x9mr18003430pje.34.1634357222531; Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s17sm6399457pfs.91.2021.10.15.21.07.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 Oct 2021 21:07:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley , tools-discuss References: From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:06:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 04:07:09 -0000 Generally looks good to me. Two questions: 1) Will *all* the per-list-per-user options in mailman be exposed? (If no= t, will there be a one-click way to get to them?) 2) What about mailman password management? It can be a nightmare. Regards Brian Carpenter On 12-Oct-21 11:45, Jay Daley wrote: > Hi >=20 > As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design w= orkshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and us= er interfaces. As part of the preparation for that we have worked on a d= etailed mockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-= 12.pdf >=20 > This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: >=20 > a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing = list subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple ema= il addresses > b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple = smaller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above > c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the subse= quent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being hosted un= der other domains > d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or = something in between > e) subscribing to read-only lists >=20 >=20 > Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow=E2=80=99s meeting, with the ma= in discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. >=20 > Jay >=20 >=20 > [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6E= znPMjvPBus8n4/ >=20 From nobody Sat Oct 16 01:45:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA8F3A0CF9 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kkb1HjnldI8Z for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFB193A0CFA for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 01:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (p5089a8ac.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HWcCG0Vjmz2xLT; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:44:58 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 10:44:57 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8587DFF4-E508-4E85-8F04-0DA6826699C0@tzi.org> References: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 08:45:13 -0000 Well, the auto-generated message does have one use: I can see what conflicts the WG chair has stated and can blame them if = the resulting IETF agenda leads to a bad schedule conflict. (Really, one should be able to get that information from somewhere else, = but I don=E2=80=99t know where to look.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > The chair is going to send an email to the WG list with more details = anyway. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 >=20 >> On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:13, Tim Wicinski wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to = ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually = the case.=20 >>=20 >> tim >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >> On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >=20 >> > I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions >> > have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and >> > could go just fine to the chairs only. >>=20 >> (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) >>=20 >> +1 >>=20 >> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >>=20 >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sat Oct 16 14:41:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A7C3A0878 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:41:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNbpen5teSxd for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3BE83A0877 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 14:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38CA18228 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ZMXBXBv2kq-E for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989B21808D for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376C6AC for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:41:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> References: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 21:41:27 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What's the private domain stuff? +notation is not well supported outside of people who run their own mail se= rver. Those of us who use it, already know how. It doesn't seem important enough to put so prominently. (And + is regularly rejected by all manner of services out there, which is very much wrong, but nothing to do with the IETF's mailman) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmFrRv0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUapQf/SGVGaPTq2L+H48SjvrDFAaIPU1oepQiragIOF2VxImJVJI7UYS7Hmq6o OjNNzrcAND9U5BLzyBOdT1FoOgBB8m9B7j6T9g9p7JF9w8U3OHu/VWQqaCsQzV1W puVnnf/xnd7RTOf01OCJCPzLf+sB+5JEAsl0kfvrCrNEkHl1ZweKL3jSsBJ2IXkz WSwjhY0f5UXmvfDLhAsL4gkaBzDi+QrEzMUo6ua/471EFYqdZlAnngt3S8CcmaUl s0yMzwqm8n8oCs8PAW1tj0sc6OJ1T2Ei5WWljIBQK6rg2OWjFzBZy14YBxBAjRLD qvaUvAMov4wb1YTbrGoPfsBZE+GIPw== =tQo5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Oct 16 15:13:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550BB3A083A for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=WIgVdTrB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=X6c9VMnZ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uTAO63J7XJXL for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6835E3A0784 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21481 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2021 22:12:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=53e4.616b4e5a.k2110; bh=Jkqd4QLyx0pYViddKdGLqyWuuq2Fr3KdAywoyCzhwnc=; b=WIgVdTrB1vOTPQpy8qMG8y1/IZ41Sp7q7XnabyYicDAQuAf3+Hk1D7LZaHSUsh/2QR0hODbbmpD8HqmKXOwRCypRBedisf5IiDmeIyeyh1WYYRkaIgWF7XfMFj/gR/959ZGR5BwHw18Y+R6oH9UgG865as/Lr4NFzFBxIhJo0IfDPjIPyvaKThgR55pQ/4iCj2YV8OMrVhCzQDLwN6S+N8YiiSQOB/2jNMm8Byk1G3w6n771k2KMglJ0Aa6xh5GNzE4S69F8NfGMVpEI82XibO4aNNfEAf52G9/dZX8Smxcq7Zq6vLmfu/SndRvMXzLDHy9ijLOWnKU2VDWwbLBywA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=53e4.616b4e5a.k2110; bh=Jkqd4QLyx0pYViddKdGLqyWuuq2Fr3KdAywoyCzhwnc=; b=X6c9VMnZhMTCFAt4MiGF5dwebpXdqsPLrvlCTljhSz45u+tYxXnUGLrhraC4XSWzrbn1ZE9XdiYfdtU/VQuvv9c8khZ7CJC4qdEvsbC3CC+vGxNB8oaFCiiBP7OJRC6Ea3wmFBtI2nqZgh3AECrC6YKs2prVRDyp5Mnl6UF79O3GVIYkj03i3A0W3kTiBcLSk7mqmUWuW3qtvvLIIA6Xab5coHtYpj1NJ1BZ5xmbZpBFREV4zHQoHgTIMA7U9shW7VCcyOV89TadnkGzXDKMrszZ8LPnk6dt9Zant4ft7DrmOr1pgton+GLmSyRLuqlvBBKKiqXrbIFyyHwb2uyPaA== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 16 Oct 2021 22:12:42 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9C0462A70FAF; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 18:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: 16 Oct 2021 18:12:40 -0400 Message-Id: <20211016221241.9C0462A70FAF@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca In-Reply-To: <2664.1634420478@localhost> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2021 22:12:52 -0000 It appears that Michael Richardson said: > >What's the private domain stuff? >+notation is not well supported outside of people who run their own mail server. It works at Gmail and AOLhoo, which together are probably half of the mail users in the world. But I agree that it doesn't seem worth it. In my experience, if you can set up a rule to sort mail based on +extension you can just as easily sort on List-ID. R's, John From nobody Sat Oct 16 17:01:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8D73A0E00 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:00:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kkiL9AQ3Pd2B for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E78AD3A0E0E for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 17:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E553C18286; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id b4fEosiwhibE; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE23418050; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A261C6; Sat, 16 Oct 2021 20:00:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "John Levine" cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20211016221241.9C0462A70FAF@ary.qy> References: <20211016221241.9C0462A70FAF@ary.qy> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 00:00:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Levine wrote: > It appears that Michael Richardson said: >> >> What's the private domain stuff? >> +notation is not well supported outside of people who run their own = mail server. > It works at Gmail and AOLhoo, which together are probably half of the= mail users in the world. I wish more of them would use it then, so that other places would stop clai= ming my email addresses are invalid. > But I agree that it doesn't seem worth it. In my experience, if you = can set up a rule > to sort mail based on +extension you can just as easily sort on List-= ID. I probably agree. List-Id: is also (ab)used by github to mark all emails relating to github issues/pull-requests. I noticed this when I changed my inbox view to inclu= de ListId before Subject. But, my point is that it shouldn't be so prominent as I think it will confu= se more than it will help. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmFrZ7AACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX9UggAo0jya9Lca9sgcLeJ7cmIdXw6WoR7AJXSF4PckEjucuEAFN5vu1R4b2c9 r7UavRQ/j0ubQjCGF/KktnTOWNbIeOr5NOwz7fofeM8JFvNGB/3UVM3x16N1aZ8a 81xZdpXzj7vopl1blVSI5KugIEBd1ZpF1Ndk3wENgcuji1bZghn6TxAVV868INqt dtrZDD8Sl/sIU6r6xYHyDoyHGS+N0wC1XHgzf5br84laA/CCEkOm61RL8v4LfVl1 ZMGUapR/siWu1q9a/zNdamL2tWvj0gmfPjwBPC7EqwL5tg9j7cKkU/nRyVTbj3nD lgrkr2az9mwPAt6RELwSJCi/v94thg== =dtc3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Oct 17 01:44:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EDE3A0B1C for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7LSsUhDUOeQZ for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD3263A0A64 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9E841B8162; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y4HnYbypV4iQ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5080D4127A50; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 21:43:50 +1300 Message-Id: References: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> Cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 08:44:02 -0000 > On 16/10/2021, at 5:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFGenerally looks good to me. Two questions: >=20 > 1) Will *all* the per-list-per-user options in mailman be exposed? (If not= , will there be a one-click way to get to them?) If the APIs of Mailman 3 support item then yes, but maybe not all at the sta= rt.=20 >=20 > 2) What about mailman password management? It can be a nightmare. As above, depends on the APIs. Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 >> On 12-Oct-21 11:45, Jay Daley wrote: >> Hi >>=20 >> As previously advised, Robert and I are working on a series of design wor= kshops [1] , one of which we hope to plan around mail management and user in= terfaces. As part of the preparation for that we have worked on a detailed m= ockup of a mail subscription interface for Datatracker: >>=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Mail_Subscription_Mockup_2021-10-= 12.pdf >>=20 >> This interface is intended to solve a number of issues: >>=20 >> a) (primary issue) the time/effort required to manage multiple mailing li= st subscriptions and the various ways people do that using multiple email ad= dresses >> b) the ongoing issue of one notification list to rule them or multiple sm= aller lists, which is heavily influenced by a) above >> c) the inadequacy of the default listing of mailing lists and the subsequ= ent effect on discoverability, compounded by some lists being hosted under o= ther domains >> d) finding out easily if a list is barely used, wildly high volume, or so= mething in between >> e) subscribing to read-only lists >>=20 >>=20 >> Comments most welcome now or at tomorrow=E2=80=99s meeting, with the main= discussion expected to be at the planned workshop. >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >>=20 >> [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/WuhwUDI56QkB6Ezn= PMjvPBus8n4/ >>=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Oct 17 01:46:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464093A0B2A for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5o2HiE5A-lNV for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9200B3A0B20 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4C2A41592B7; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ETP-8VDmfHiC; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 79BCF4127A50; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 01:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 21:46:12 +1300 Message-Id: References: <2664.1634420478@localhost> Cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <2664.1634420478@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18G82) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 08:46:24 -0000 > On 17/10/2021, at 10:41 AM, Michael Richardson wro= te: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > What's the private domain stuff? > +notation is not well supported outside of people who run their own mail s= erver. > Those of us who use it, already know how. It doesn't seem important enoug= h > to put so prominently. >=20 > (And + is regularly rejected by all manner of services out there, which is= > very much wrong, but nothing to do with the IETF's mailman) Enough people already use it for IETF mailing lists that it seems friendly t= o help them with that. The prominence could be adjusted by hiding it in an =E2= =80=98advanced=E2=80=99 panel but what IETF=E2=80=99r isn=E2=80=99t going to= look at that immediately? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director=20 exec-director@ietf.org >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consult= ing ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org= > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Sun Oct 17 12:41:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA253A0AF9; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjxD-gyR6Ntn; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52c.google.com (mail-pg1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E31DA3A0AEE; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 133so13851029pgb.1; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IrYOQ0MkPa7kMI/3UQnxIP2aHMnV6GuIRX67tfQAPFk=; b=bvciFBjrIuuy0V5EnhMzH4TvO4Ni3M0NfmsgXlMV8RAjkS04f/xGHzafM80IpxMDka p3otZZVvAnZbiVKtb9OZSdS2s5GgeppEGR3aHIuv3llAz1jMD140Wvixg3jUbZnOxVeH kClV1iNSXMV8W3YBliRBF3jv53KVrLJgTevPY4ARFSzej+l8ttkDRCR9/wBZvGmmpK4C KWQ+FMwTot270XiL+/i9XIE7Etzvy3iZUHFWbWGCA3tX46M0/BObX+Q9rjbYIYiguOrk i3rpYGxytjaqvXGEeCCSDtH0cEzbBl8/WN6Ct3i40SVuokzdaOac+tZYzcX/8uiMUUuB hQlw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IrYOQ0MkPa7kMI/3UQnxIP2aHMnV6GuIRX67tfQAPFk=; b=8PhLzl5kPi5/ghCai78QQH35S2+zCdLtr4Pk4kCQAfXLoit552a8sWraWC9acM26+x oxCSxXAdKa9D+f0UL3wKdDCeeMNfHfHdATXsUcihsGj1Y8c7Zuaudmipgmfo9YB1IN4a jvzUcdSUhRCq+n3hB9YU/r0Qtw+JKhl6CAOzYxTTsYZUUfSDXMZSkAImoGhAtNQ+g4xq Tc5ExwSkiik+lb+35xLv6zTkynpJ8ip68WKwmd58MeU6aZX0bkEM8zGRw5cGZl6WX1Xg n/Y0qMUuLM4kBqzTsBD6AjP+hOHMC5q+m7aZlv+XGSr1L4u0nmZLHX/DvxoqPngnacm0 CXKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532h8N1bc3EgCBAQaN/x95LbMrR8OdaFEGZSrTWSPJRIdCETugDJ iQGH4gihXLht+ijO1JxikjKFommMyW6PWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx1oG2u+uMxyM0qq6RIk8N6XhWDwPXDdP/BGVgd2DOGLJRE7zBV3GNnf6RkfVNKEBWs2w19lA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4d20:: with SMTP id a32mr19469504pgb.247.1634499697956; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65? ([2406:e003:102d:e801:db7:d041:a2d:ce65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c12sm10427322pgw.39.2021.10.17.12.41.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 17 Oct 2021 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Jay Daley Cc: tools-discuss References: <6cfbdec5-6dfc-aa08-211c-83294081248a@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4cde11eb-a51c-0f65-da5a-2719cd7cb96f@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:41:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 19:41:44 -0000 On 17-Oct-21 21:43, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 16/10/2021, at 5:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFGenerally looks good to me. Two questions: >> >> 1) Will *all* the per-list-per-user options in mailman be exposed? (If=20 not, will there be a one-click way to get to them?) >=20 > If the APIs of Mailman 3 support item then yes, but maybe not all at th= e start.=20 What could be done quite easily, I think, is providing a link to=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/LISTNAME/EMAIL%40ADDRESS Brian >> >> 2) What about mailman password management? It can be a nightmare. >=20 > As above, depends on the APIs. >=20 > Jay >=20 From nobody Sun Oct 17 13:25:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766653A0B85; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZMjV32WnRp5p; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48A963A0B75; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 13:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA75182A4; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id gePud8kGQfXC; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E61182A3; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0463C527; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 16:25:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley cc: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: <2664.1634420478@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:25:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > Enough people already use it for IETF mailing lists that it seems > friendly to help them with that. The prominence could be adjusted by > hiding it in an =E2=80=98advanced=E2=80=99 panel but what IETF=E2=80= =99r isn=E2=80=99t going to look at > that immediately? The new ones who are just joining, and who we want to support :-) I am curious how many use account+ietflistname@example.com, vs just account+ietf@example.com as I do. (I use mcr+ietf@ on RIPE and ARIN lists too, because I need to tweak my Fro= m: header when sending, and there is a limit to how many things I want in that menu item... although: M-x ietf for me) [I still even use foobar-request@ietf.org to subscribe to stuff. Nobody under 30 probably has a clue that it's a thing.] =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmFshqkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVTcAgAlgOa87rPBIjhMKaWFZXNX6Oe8lMDWuQZEcEs4s4d+FbNMsL1Cpto+NhW TmMI2yivEhGfvwGfiJqQDVXM7fJXtxGNTglzh4+4vZ3GUh+k8HQvEoqGIgHt9EbL LcMJiuvhxes7SEJ8LP0ATIFV9iXdcU1znV419lOwMjoE+jZRKjW4dHJ1YFYEAeqy sHjRyQDxUz1Plh/YjrtfPZkigW5ODbNE+D5dQY33G1mPufOm9ILa4efbRlRcEXlt KqvSKt/AzhOSj3lmixJxHnk9euB8Y1J6HlSHpS0pH+fOJILdeyLx4gRhbs5iQ7Xa +d/8H0jZ8TBKd0KLe+oUFdvob6W5IQ== =kOvy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Oct 17 20:55:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5A83A0AE8 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:55:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=WTsZ3bgD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=oc0gN2nj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id reGwqPoaGR24 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33C613A0E18 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 20:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30557 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2021 03:55:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=775a.616cf017.k2110; bh=J3o5+nq1Qkvg2OO65gk7ZxwWJbp4GV/uXpHFe83LKsw=; b=WTsZ3bgDCJabtczxzH2oGAqsCqMD87in96F1SjYJKRzP1SJyTXQXswUqZvFMWme4lA4ZfpNAgYirbJfOzEKNoTrVJN6qUZQTfDIcQzcqg+r93OZWILf+IasT4fqQPeh97z5zD+cDfJNCj/iztYmjVjCEeIaMFfn4nmB+MNZ8j+DqHtVvc30ux80aTSXJdbKfnXFSYoVm0WC+RzNmaGAs8QEM6FbaDdYr08MzvNQvRvKK4tkOYu7cSlez7DJacZLayj3roG7+6dqVd2WYKe3ZqjE92l/wutmLTJ5bSdvdId8l8yeP01q1HBkDaAWFrpwy7U4DPNPjbBziVwgioSvoYg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=775a.616cf017.k2110; bh=J3o5+nq1Qkvg2OO65gk7ZxwWJbp4GV/uXpHFe83LKsw=; b=oc0gN2njUkkA0kbas8AxxoZ5umH5t367Hsm9wTAjQp11SPp2Bum/syPF/2i9+Ju3pmPO5eU+pxy0dPZMo4WIh1AyZ75uq6BsEoQ4snCG7fmJJjbM6BzC9oIeYFPVMpVtR6Hcu93ZyD+ay8q/QMweyRnDLk5mZysM3xPqfqVFbJ/UJXPnIPiNUtzLYkLzN80DpDsWzuFnNzaqOLlngX+tuiLxS8BTtYrmaRaUEN8+PMqJEnKAWGlAhDMBFjSeCFPSpGNiarPHZ8xSdTxdpT7lu7kkxYjomM74Az2glVnIMg34h06zNknU6zY8KKa7EB6iptUFoeVXGKfAwdfu+81cGg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 18 Oct 2021 03:55:03 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4F1612A7ACF8; Sun, 17 Oct 2021 23:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: 17 Oct 2021 23:55:03 -0400 Message-Id: <20211018035503.4F1612A7ACF8@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 03:55:12 -0000 It appears that Jay Daley said: >> (And + is regularly rejected by all manner of services out there, which is >> very much wrong, but nothing to do with the IETF's mailman) > >Enough people already use it for IETF mailing lists that it seems friendly to help them with that. The prominence could be adjusted by hiding it in an ‘advanced’ panel but what IETF’r isn’t going to look at that immediately? Do they have a different +address for each list or one address they use for all lists, e.g., bob+ietf@example.com? My impression is that it's mostly the latter. R's, John From nobody Mon Oct 18 06:25:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5139F3A138F for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K2j3jXac8u8b for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51DFB3A137E for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19IDP2Jo063962 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:25:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634563503; bh=MXOpG/9VUJiZICxeGMQxQ211CeksvrDaBMrvvVdVfhU=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=oyaGWEhB1TowKRjlucEUHsd28af3V5X/lY6aZo/wXw2jk3WMMNLuvfix6yb0LxRkV mwqJ8q/+euo8tmi3Q7i03zFNmTbw7GOikBIG8ohmR2PGPbqeDXa6t6nCADvSPOL/v+ b9RZIu93tTZpo/ByMw9ALlCKmE4Y5ilPykQuPsdg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 08:24:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss References: <5297E742-CAFD-4E10-B247-09FFBE099F29@tzi.org> <8587DFF4-E508-4E85-8F04-0DA6826699C0@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <8587DFF4-E508-4E85-8F04-0DA6826699C0@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposal: don't mail session scheduling updates to the list X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 13:25:13 -0000 On 10/16/21 3:44 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Well, the auto-generated message does have one use: > I can see what conflicts the WG chair has stated and can blame them if the resulting IETF agenda leads to a bad schedule conflict. > (Really, one should be able to get that information from somewhere else, but I don’t know where to look.) https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/112/requests > > Grüße, Carsten > > >> On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:47, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> The chair is going to send an email to the WG list with more details anyway. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> >>> On 16. Oct 2021, at 02:13, Tim Wicinski wrote: >>> >>> >>> I think folks are assuming that everyone on the WG list subscribes to ietf-announce, which as has been pointed out recently, is not usually the case. >>> >>> tim >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 7:58 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> On 16. Oct 2021, at 01:03, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> I would like to propose we don't send emails saying that sessions >>>> have been scheduled to the WG list. These are just clutter and >>>> could go just fine to the chairs only. >>> (Looking at the 179 emails in my inbox:) >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> Grüße, Carsten >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Oct 18 07:07:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA973A13F1 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mp4rIPSPVGxW for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D4AB3A13F0 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:07:28 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 3bqt2ybyr1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:07:28 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:07:28 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:07:27 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: John Levine , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface Thread-Index: AQHXvvHMTneSwc7DOE+eDAgrr7fR0avVS7CAgAEmlQCAALnFAIABQPyAgABoDIA= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:07:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4A3327FC-6590-4579-A23B-35D62960056D@akamai.com> References: <20211018035503.4F1612A7ACF8@ary.qy> In-Reply-To: <20211018035503.4F1612A7ACF8@ary.qy> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.54.21101001 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.164.43] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8611F60FAFFF6446B6CFF0DF23E646D1@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.425, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-10-18_06:2021-10-14, 2021-10-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=569 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110180088 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: rKbVZQsZesejrBKzgDZ3OcQ1orOc3ait X-Proofpoint-GUID: rKbVZQsZesejrBKzgDZ3OcQ1orOc3ait X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.182.1,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.0.607.475 definitions=2021-10-18_06,2021-10-14_02,2020-04-07_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=511 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2109230001 definitions=main-2110180088 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:07:35 -0000 SSBoYXZlIHNlZW4gYXQgbGVhc3Qgb25lIHBlcnNvbiB3aG8gZG9lcyAiK3dnbmFtZSIgYXMgb3Bw b3NlZCB0byAiK2lldGYiOyBWaWt0b3IgRHVraG92bmkuDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Oct 18 07:21:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4983A1481 for ; 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Mon, 18 Oct 2021 07:21:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211018035503.4F1612A7ACF8@ary.qy> <4A3327FC-6590-4579-A23B-35D62960056D@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <4A3327FC-6590-4579-A23B-35D62960056D@akamai.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:20:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: John Levine , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000678fba05cea14108" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Mockup of mailing list subscription interface X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 14:21:22 -0000 --000000000000678fba05cea14108 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +1, my WG has at least one member that uses "+wgname". Cheers, Andy On Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 10:07 AM Salz, Rich wrote: > I have seen at least one person who does "+wgname" as opposed to "+ietf"; > Viktor Dukhovni. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000678fba05cea14108 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    +1, my WG has at least one member=C2=A0that uses "+wg= name".

    Cheers,
    Andy

    <= /div>
    O= n Mon, Oct 18, 2021 at 10:07 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    I have seen at least = one person who does "+wgname" as opposed to "+ietf"; Vi= ktor Dukhovni.

    ___________________________________________________________
    Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
    This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
    * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
    * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
    * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
    List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
    --000000000000678fba05cea14108-- From nobody Mon Oct 18 23:47:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CF33A0763; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 23:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DUrlpHzIJhx0; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 23:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:f59e:182:f628:e27f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FBC73A0744; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 23:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: IETF Chair Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: Tools Team Discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:46:11 +0300 Message-Id: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> Cc: Working Chairs , Tools Team Discussion To: IETF-Announce , irtf-announce@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 06:46:22 -0000 Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. In that announcement, we anticipated shutdown before IETF 111. That was = over-ambitious, but we are getting close to ready to complete the = transition, and expect to finalize it before IETF 113. As expected, most functionality has moved to the datatracker. A few = services have, or will be, moved elsewhere. We are tracking the moved services at = https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan. If there are = features at tools.ietf.org that you find important that are not yet = available elsewhere or captured on that page, please send a note to = tools-discuss@ietf.org. If you are more comfortable doing so, send a = note to me (lars@eggert.org) or to Robert Sparks (rjsparks@nostrum.com). Thank you for your patience as we complete this transition. Robert Sparks, Tools Team Lead Lars Eggert, IETF Chair= From nobody Tue Oct 19 00:47:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E01E3A03FC for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 00:47:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yjH3JK8yRh9d for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 00:47:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [91.190.195.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF8263A0856 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 00:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:f59e:182:f628:e27f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98D54600C9C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:47:06 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1634629627; bh=glw0dbNhYBGzCfPn8v6BMUqKlwfqw+uSKpu7eqKyK3Q=; h=From:Subject:References:To:Date; b=PHsa5KHicWxdoGhn4gvdih7iSeg+9p03iqEPBFtB5pPCTf2kVLSIAhZ4ECtOeILrP 4RFMvQv12BAD07TcmNSoKy3jSDjKjLZsHL3VRQGFGY1KPweMP2hVgcU0kNX3H6BEmu 5XvVURGSoTgFAJtGtY6URWqeDdz1Pz/LfqBCuf+8= From: Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FAE23C9C-3156-4944-A82D-C28B4AE48132"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> References: To: Tools Team Discussion Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 10:47:00 +0300 X-MailScanner-ID: 98D54600C9C.A6488 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:47:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FAE23C9C-3156-4944-A82D-C28B4AE48132 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_20D7E2A9-90EC-4191-9FC2-CEED4332E621" --Apple-Mail=_20D7E2A9-90EC-4191-9FC2-CEED4332E621 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I'm not very deep on DKIM/DMARC/email security. Could someone let me = know if this error message is because of something I misconfigured on = eggert.org , or because of something beyond my = control? Thanks, Lars > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: no-reply@mx199.antispamcloud.com > Subject: DMARC Forensic Report for eggert.org from IP 4.31.198.44 > Date: October 18, 2021 at 20:55:58 GMT+3 > To: lars@eggert.org >=20 > A message claiming to be from you has failed the published DMARC > policy for your domain. >=20 > Sender Domain: eggert.org > Sender IP Address: 4.31.198.44 > Received Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:55:58 +0200 > SPF Alignment: no > DKIM Alignment: no > DMARC Results: None, Accept >=20 > ------ This is a copy of the headers that were received before the = error > was detected. >=20 > X-DKIM-Failure: signature_incorrect > Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) > by mx199.antispamcloud.com with esmtps = (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) > (Exim 4.92) > (envelope-from ) > id 1mcWre-000Icj-0s > for richard@shockey.us; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 19:55:58 +0200 > Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) > by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393483A1813 > for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:55:51 -0700 (PDT) > DKIM-Signature: v=3D1; a=3Drsa-sha256; c=3Drelaxed/simple; d=3Dietf.org;= s=3Dietf1; > t=3D1634579751; bh=3DnPyLSMPSLIF0buaTiLzkDYAQrThjq1KflNHHb/R3a34=3D= ; > h=3DFrom:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:List-Id: > = List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: > Cc; > = b=3DRhbXr0TtZJXYYhQ8gS7dfv7sz1up6DgjAYVJfWlWakD/HLKkk72ZmCl/dPN71Y5UG > = I8tbT1dFc9og8gumDRfIF+hpq0svHIhfP7ADRgTY6myd3wagzF3jUjRWle/mMrZbLy > UeTh1lKVx2xBGphNr9Xetlu/lFodtcXQZjhq2pcw=3D > X-Mailbox-Line: =46rom ietf-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 18 10:55:49 2021 > Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) > by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF603A180B; > Mon, 18 Oct 2021 10:55:48 -0700 (PDT) > DKIM-Signature: v=3D1; a=3Drsa-sha256; c=3Drelaxed/simple; d=3Dietf.org;= s=3Dietf1; > t=3D1634579748; bh=3DnPyLSMPSLIF0buaTiLzkDYAQrThjq1KflNHHb/R3a34=3D= ; > h=3DFrom:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:To:References:List-Id: > = List-Unsubscribe:List-Archive:List-Post:List-Help:List-Subscribe: > Cc; > = b=3Dsfo+ZyWQMVgLED48VoB9TAArsZWcenxmI7PUwX5wRB5t+z8FAe3J10fJu76onSKLB > = ydCIQw6cbW+F4VfUGhDVbxRul8NOlUP+Cw39II/H/UagulEgcJPE592ozsdKFpZXNt > iIG9m8zCS0xyelVs77SIsZmnZIgg4r2V+V7DMIZA=3D > X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com > Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com > Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB493A180B > for ; 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> Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:55:30 +0300 (EEST) > DKIM-Signature: v=3D1; a=3Drsa-sha256; c=3Drelaxed/simple; = d=3Deggert.org; s=3Ddkim; > t=3D1634579732; bh=3DnPyLSMPSLIF0buaTiLzkDYAQrThjq1KflNHHb/R3a34=3D; > h=3DFrom:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; > b=3DQ5sjOLI7lyIk20CplivFIj8MO7ZE6Vk7AVcq9ChSZR6+Mc2+rUZmqhrgFZyh0I65Q > 2HEvtQvg5DdJIFn/cJI2ADxU5B2/ce24mg9fXUy0MiMToOtzinj24FV6moguraOC/S > I0Mj653PV9/tv7afE/D6uIszn1kqexFzDrw4gBt0=3D > From: Lars Eggert > Message-Id: <50E2BAC1-C9B0-447E-9423-628A5665C8B2@eggert.org> > Content-Type: multipart/signed; > boundary=3D"Apple-Mail=3D_CD670D08-EB3B-4D68-BE55-6E1D905C8D65"; > protocol=3D"application/pgp-signature"; micalg=3Dpgp-sha512 > Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) > Subject: Re: BCP97bis > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:55:26 +0300 > In-Reply-To: > To: "Salz, Rich" > References: = > > > > <27721119-D39D-427D-8EEE-C5027DA15B06@akamai.com> > <007c01d7c2dc$9090c780$b1b25680$@acm.org> > > <7FD4ED52C043B31F774E9381@PSB> > > X-MailScanner-ID: 463A9600C9C.A4FC5 > X-MailScanner: Found to be clean > X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org > Archived-At: = > X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 > Precedence: list > List-Id: IETF-Discussion > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Cc: John C Klensin , IETF > Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org > Sender: "ietf" > Received-SPF: pass (mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org = designates 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=3D4.31.198.44; = envelope-from=3Dietf-bounces@ietf.org; helo=3Dmail.ietf.org; > X-SPF-Result: mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org designates = 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender > X-DKIM-Status: pass / / ietf.org / ietf.org / / ietf1 > X-DKIM-Status: fail / signature_incorrect / eggert.org / eggert.org / = / dkim >=20 --Apple-Mail=_20D7E2A9-90EC-4191-9FC2-CEED4332E621 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,

    I'm = not very deep on DKIM/DMARC/email security. Could someone let me know if = this error message is because of something I misconfigured on eggert.org, or because of = something beyond my control?

    Thanks,
    Lars


    Begin = forwarded message:

    From: = no-reply@mx199.antispamcloud.com
    Subject: = DMARC Forensic = Report for eggert.org from = IP 4.31.198.44
    Date: October 18, 2021 at 20:55:58 GMT+3
    To: = lars@eggert.org

    A = message claiming to be from you has failed the published DMARC
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    Subject: Re: BCP97bis
    Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2021 20:55:26 +0300
    In-Reply-To: <C953ACA2-28C4-4DD4-B995-C16114FC95BC@akamai.com>
    To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    References: <CAL0qLwbwvs2Cp_urgJ=3Dhzc6yEMGDaz3C0xf6RQXRrB89wAx=3DRw@mail.gm= ail.com>
    <C657F78F-FF99-4898-8A08-844B32589DDE@vigilsec.com>
    <CAL0qLwbLqyWSqFGL2x-FpXXD19QG9-eZkrnTVm_fxt3tUfZSgg@mail.gmail.= com>
    <C92D456E-63ED-453B-8F33-3AAECA40D1DA@vigilsec.com>
    <27721119-D39D-427D-8EEE-C5027DA15B06@akamai.com>
    <007c01d7c2dc$9090c780$b1b25680$@acm.org>
    = <A7AD43FD-0117-44E7-9AB2-CDE3CB8682E1@akamai.com>
    <7FD4ED52C043B31F774E9381@PSB>
    <C953ACA2-28C4-4DD4-B995-C16114FC95BC@akamai.com>
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    = --Apple-Mail=_20D7E2A9-90EC-4191-9FC2-CEED4332E621-- --Apple-Mail=_FAE23C9C-3156-4944-A82D-C28B4AE48132 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFud/QACgkQVLXDCb9w wVdcYA//WWZ8IS1khpll5PJxSiuLCtw/GWEor0aUmZGHymHr1/yiF3mMvrvZ5Pe6 LZhFJBKxOgn+JejPJ7al2Vq9uPkIZ4PVV23gS0ZXaYYNZt5gJCXe2QjVKRB3eI7M 3KuiS5gtWjrpvRqV5C75YWAfZAeC6I9yGkv1Pt06gaxYUnXaHE9G1dqFhIxzF9Me LYZkdT6c9G/M7pqWKx6gzEjs2QTW2vf24S13mOhp2B2ddSY1G9SrPgHhQ00QyAHE wN6SkWhdZnypWC3APsLFANGx3yOMnK7RgiRiHjcU48mAuolfmXlT00g7kI1zAjR7 iWtZf1YyszdJ9D136x+S56xbN/8oXHHHT/BdblUKTrsQc1iS103mTnjiNoqhwhje T9WI9XoHfrVQIWTefAv00c99vSPtVdaeECAW6CdjtbfToPPgTT5zXN6oVFZYAV7u AiUhwIn14VKymVlOWa7THa1Z9pO4A10XK1CCbBfV1dJ0I0sYfzux4QENDa1ZebKa 1duqtzZ9Wi++Eiox5HJABNCM1e0SiZCIPHlbd74cf4pOwUjuGB1ndAZvG4oW4/NB 5IoH3jM0/JZhwD2bmqqNbIg6vRu0PaioAc7BDoRI/m3XIQI50soULDSlN6+ptEaB Ct7k65BQabSEwBM7b4NtGOewpCukS3BhdPKUkjQ3dRxhcWmWhT0= =VPil -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FAE23C9C-3156-4944-A82D-C28B4AE48132-- From nobody Tue Oct 19 07:41:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34E0E3A093B for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id De8E8GaTY2Em for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F4283A093A for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 07:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: https://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from [87.74.217.245] (port=58385 helo=milebook.lan) by ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.157]:25) with esmtpsa (PLAIN:fanf2) (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1mcqJG-000XH7-MU (Exim 4.95) for tools-discuss@ietf.org (return-path ); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:41:47 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:41:46 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> Message-ID: References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:41:55 -0000 IETF Chair wrote: > Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. Are the http redirects going to remain in place? There are huge amounts of links to the tools RFC pages out there. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ The Minch: South or southeast 3 to 5 veering southwest 6 to gale 8, then becoming cyclonic later. Slight or moderate becoming moderate or rough, occasionally very rough in southwest. Rain then showers, perhaps thundery. Moderate or good, occasionally poor. From nobody Tue Oct 19 08:06:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AF53A0874 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:06:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FYESpHMEpZwq for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4983A3A0BF2 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157691802D; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id fk4x2bE2aSEQ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43DE18018; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403B7834; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Lars Eggert cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> References: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:06:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lars Eggert wrote: > I'm not very deep on DKIM/DMARC/email security. Could someone let me > know if this error message is because of something I misconfigured on > eggert.org , or because of something beyond my > control? Your email went through the IETF mail server, I think. >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: no-reply@mx199.antispamcloud.com Subject: DMARC Forensic Report >> for eggert.org from IP 4.31.198.44 Date: October 18, 2021 at 20:55:58 >> GMT+3 To: lars@eggert.org >> >> A message claiming to be from you has failed the published DMARC >> policy for your domain. mail.ietf.org isn't authorized to claim to be eggert.org. mail.ietf.org does all that rewriting for mailman stuff, but not for other = stuff. >> Cc: John C Klensin >> , IETF Errors-To: >> ietf-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "ietf" >> Received-SPF: pass (mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org >> designates 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=3D4.31.198.44; >> envelope-from=3Dietf-bounces@ietf.org; helo=3Dmail.ietf.org; X-SPF-R= esult: >> mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org designates 4.31.198.44 as >> permitted sender X-DKIM-Status: pass / / ietf.org / ietf.org / / iet= f1 >> X-DKIM-Status: fail / signature_incorrect / eggert.org / eggert.org / >> / dkim >> But, it looks like it's ietf@ietf.org email, so your email should have been DMARC fixes. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmFu3vEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVA6wf/eTjjD0TjW/LhRabbRFiHOjnZoLzrbpo7l18mltXkwZ3z3V4uYuQIIPmT ZCvAmmgbg1ZC8TRzW33gzw2ziG6SIGST17t2QLTmJk79gRhwvTXkqLoHSdeevf0p i9tvr028RdJ01Ri+g6Pj85qSH+D/dqg0D33WamXtGTMcxhODLKsHvAyqaEVx/ppH yU5VZW+cgJvoAjG0DtzZuY1JFh/3NIrC7WW8SAay099c6KqtR2KpzzdwC3NO+GW4 f/jEzH44N9gxEX4uajsC3kuzasBzBhW7GjoekSPvH0wkdvwwLIbmZzQoosMeFDXj S+Xno4ez8pxyqAnPmAdKPUcMIjdnCg== =95mK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Oct 19 08:10:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22C83A0A4A for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=me.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nmsNnNGYyECQ for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr85p00im-zteg06011501.me.com (mr85p00im-zteg06011501.me.com [17.58.23.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C102E3A0A41 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; t=1634656237; bh=jzQQESiy+cauA40aV7O0aSXWQ6BYK76qI4UtnrzbqWE=; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To; b=paE8ZPzizNInlHD8U0TBh5pDHj8h+j+iPy7eVmrFDWA87877j/T8naLcGYZV9D4mF 5IvsD57b2+kdssWb/PomNkQeGHs5/ZLL2BCB1+4EA2jbbQzl1v4cM8lHpIJxOodT4o sJCY3kegCZZn64CZvxWMus11PdCEA/DFk0GAn0YJMFc0rDsbm+RKZv0z/xoiard9fV GMw3XtLztaBmoPoYMiK/FTvQVm0XnU5DS9w1sRkQrdkpdBYn9Tu7L9mvstWxyrR0tW IIrad0ScHWqXzWikR/rK+II9NHEb/vKTglEvhZ/mowWIzE0t6eokJ2p94FFEExRtIp N0qVEGO+W9LGQ== Received: from smtpclient.apple (157-131-155-250.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net [157.131.155.250]) by mr85p00im-zteg06011501.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE5132A0136; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:10:36 +0000 (UTC) From: Ole Jacobsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1D08EF44-4C27-4C75-AFAA-151C68A74219" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Message-Id: <94385EBE-4162-41C9-95C6-9275EF611786@me.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:10:35 -0700 Cc: Ole Jacobsen To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: =?UTF-8?Q?vendor=3Dfsecure_engine=3D1.1.170-22c6f66c430a71ce266a39bfe25bc?= =?UTF-8?Q?2903e8d5c8f:6.0.425,18.0.790,17.0.607.475.0000000_definitions?= =?UTF-8?Q?=3D2021-10-19=5F01:2021-10-18=5F01,2021-10-19=5F01,2020-04-07?= =?UTF-8?Q?=5F01_signatures=3D0?= X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2110190091 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] The Citation Tool X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:10:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1D08EF44-4C27-4C75-AFAA-151C68A74219 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi folks, One tool that I used constantly was written specifically "for me" by = Henrik and can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/ = This is a really useful way to generate citations for either IDs or RFCs = in one of two variant formats.=20 Change the default template to "andlist" then enter "1918" and you will = get: Daniel Karrenberg, Yakov Rekhter, Eliot Lear, and Geert Jan de Groot, = "Address Allocation for Private Internets," RFC 1918, February 1996. I should note that this only works for RFCs up to 8990 presumably = because some underlying indexing script stops running. Would LOVE to see this functionality replicated in your new system. Cheers, Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Web: protocoljournal.org E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org Skype: organdemo --Apple-Mail=_1D08EF44-4C27-4C75-AFAA-151C68A74219 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = folks,

    One tool that = I used constantly was written specifically "for me" by Henrik
    and can be found here:

    https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/

    This is a really useful = way to generate citations for either IDs or RFCs in
    one of two variant formats. 

    Change the default template to = "andlist" then enter "1918" and you will get:

    Daniel Karrenberg, Yakov Rekhter, Eliot = Lear, and Geert Jan de Groot, "Address Allocation for Private = Internets," RFC 1918, February 1996.

    I should note that this only works for = RFCs up to 8990 presumably because some underlying
    indexing script stops running.

    Would LOVE to see this functionality = replicated in your new system.

    Cheers,

    Ole

    Ole J. Jacobsen
    Editor and Publisher
    The Internet = Protocol Journal
    Office: +1 415-550-9433
    Cell:   +1 415-370-4628
    Web: protocoljournal.org
    E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com
    E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org
    Skype: = organdemo



    = --Apple-Mail=_1D08EF44-4C27-4C75-AFAA-151C68A74219-- From nobody Tue Oct 19 09:37:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC68C3A0D6F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6RVw9UKGCno for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EDC93A0D6C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 09:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19JGaxEq043353 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:36:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634661420; bh=+nEcMAHbB7Uamtsg+sPYr7wCMNNEios6teVfJlxHQT4=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=vNScaLQ9tvkGzZrfuln926qRt9524CykHGO53CAO2dPaLricA0vT+qtt6eaOwWDYS Wc54iv2mxCWmckjaqCECVi/J+nf9fNBXZ39cw+iBJYxLICmXUzD8PBHtlYpbidaDpC ULmljCp2DlCxyNh/rK2gtXfSNQ8XrRgcamsQb7Gc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:36:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Tony Finch , Tools Team Discussion References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:37:11 -0000 On 10/19/21 9:41 AM, Tony Finch wrote: > IETF Chair wrote: > >> Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. > Are the http redirects going to remain in place? There are huge amounts of > links to the tools RFC pages out there. Yes, they will. > > Tony. From nobody Tue Oct 19 11:12:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3304B3A0982 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:12:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vjg2WdZcY4mT for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 939A43A089C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 11:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: https://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from [87.74.217.245] (port=59039 helo=milebook.lan) by ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.157]:25) with esmtpsa (PLAIN:fanf2) (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1mctbD-000XKM-MJ (Exim 4.95) (return-path ); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:12:31 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:12:31 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Robert Sparks cc: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4d2ae6e0-5eb6-eec-1b3a-5b462e9caa82@dotat.at> References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:12:42 -0000 Robert Sparks wrote: > > Are the http redirects going to remain in place? > Yes, they will. Super, good to hear, thanks! Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ Isle of Man: West or southwest 4 to 6, veering west or northwest 3 or 4 for a time. Moderate or rough becoming slight or moderate. Showers. Good, occasionally moderate. From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:01:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F194C3A094F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:01:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q9MffVVY_uOK for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 343103A08CC for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19JJ1BTF072639 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:01:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634670072; bh=uUO3+PqIKkD1xdBIziiTtYJkxkvf8oU892BCzWymfdA=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=edAG2jYR1a21ryRP9XL3wr5zPxDKf/5Qvuq62zZmiUVFoudJCZPcaSAoCJlhE5FW/ 1opDePXRvwgr7cd17jYdtGALWuPLoG0FiNnvnTBrtmVOiYm2/Kyp42a3zOmr7a+two Ga7hIs3JiU80DOhd/Z3J0dXMBKX3Qe1nXtnaD0sU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------usgFG8yqLrqm49kZfqvZYhGj" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:01:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Michael Richardson , Lars Eggert , John R Levine Cc: Tools Team Discussion References: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> <22246.1634655986@localhost> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <22246.1634655986@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:01:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------usgFG8yqLrqm49kZfqvZYhGj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lars - The list didn't rewrite your email address in this case because you've published a policy of p=none. We rewrite on p=quarantine or p=reject. John might be able to help more, but I don't think your domain is particularly misconfigured. RjS On 10/19/21 10:06 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Lars Eggert wrote: > > I'm not very deep on DKIM/DMARC/email security. Could someone let me > > know if this error message is because of something I misconfigured on > > eggert.org, or because of something beyond my > > control? > > Your email went through the IETF mail server, I think. > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> From:no-reply@mx199.antispamcloud.com Subject: DMARC Forensic Report > >> for eggert.org from IP 4.31.198.44 Date: October 18, 2021 at 20:55:58 > >> GMT+3 To:lars@eggert.org > >> > >> A message claiming to be from you has failed the published DMARC > >> policy for your domain. > > mail.ietf.org isn't authorized to claim to be eggert.org. > mail.ietf.org does all that rewriting for mailman stuff, but not for other stuff. > > >> Cc: John C Klensin > >>, IETF Errors-To: > >>ietf-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "ietf" > >> Received-SPF: pass (mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org > >> designates 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=4.31.198.44; > >>envelope-from=ietf-bounces@ietf.org; helo=mail.ietf.org; X-SPF-Result: > >> mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org designates 4.31.198.44 as > >> permitted sender X-DKIM-Status: pass / / ietf.org / ietf.org / / ietf1 > >> X-DKIM-Status: fail / signature_incorrect / eggert.org / eggert.org / > >> / dkim > >> > > But, it looks like it'sietf@ietf.org email, so your email should have been > DMARC fixes. > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------usgFG8yqLrqm49kZfqvZYhGj Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Lars -

    The list didn't rewrite your email address in this case because you've published a policy of p=none. We rewrite on p=quarantine or p=reject.

    John might be able to help more, but I don't think your domain is particularly misconfigured.

    RjS

    On 10/19/21 10:06 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
    Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org> wrote:
    > I'm not very deep on DKIM/DMARC/email security. Could someone let me
    > know if this error message is because of something I misconfigured on
    > eggert.org <http://eggert.org/>, or because of something beyond my
    > control?

Your email went through the IETF mail server, I think.


    >> Begin forwarded message:
    >>
    >> From: no-reply@mx199.antispamcloud.com Subject: DMARC Forensic Report
    >> for eggert.org from IP 4.31.198.44 Date: October 18, 2021 at 20:55:58
    >> GMT+3 To: lars@eggert.org
    >>
    >> A message claiming to be from you has failed the published DMARC
    >> policy for your domain.

mail.ietf.org isn't authorized to claim to be eggert.org.
mail.ietf.org does all that rewriting for mailman stuff, but not for other stuff.

    >> <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Cc: John C Klensin
    >> <john-ietf@jck.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org> Errors-To:
    >> ietf-bounces@ietf.org Sender: "ietf" <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>
    >> Received-SPF: pass (mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org
    >> designates 4.31.198.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=4.31.198.44;
    >> envelope-from=ietf-bounces@ietf.org; helo=mail.ietf.org; X-SPF-Result:
    >> mx199.antispamcloud.com: domain of ietf.org designates 4.31.198.44 as
    >> permitted sender X-DKIM-Status: pass / / ietf.org / ietf.org / / ietf1
    >> X-DKIM-Status: fail / signature_incorrect / eggert.org / eggert.org /
    >> / dkim
    >>

But, it looks like it's ietf@ietf.org email, so your email should have been
DMARC fixes.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide


    ___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
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    --------------usgFG8yqLrqm49kZfqvZYhGj-- From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:28:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3063A0CDF for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hfLDf3-0DJOB for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB8C3A0CD8 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA664127893; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tBA6gzQLeYuQ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F05F5412788C; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <4d2ae6e0-5eb6-eec-1b3a-5b462e9caa82@dotat.at> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:28:23 +1300 Cc: Robert Sparks , Tools Team Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <379DAB00-019D-4A66-B737-9CB8BDE6E069@ietf.org> References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> <4d2ae6e0-5eb6-eec-1b3a-5b462e9caa82@dotat.at> To: Tony Finch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:28:34 -0000 > On 20/10/2021, at 7:12 AM, Tony Finch wrote: >=20 > Robert Sparks wrote: >>> Are the http redirects going to remain in place? >> Yes, they will. >=20 > Super, good to hear, thanks! I believe (Robert can correct me if I=E2=80=99m wrong) that these = redirects will change from a 302 Moved temporarily to a 310 Moved = permanently. Jay >=20 > Tony. > --=20 > f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ > Isle of Man: West or southwest 4 to 6, veering west or northwest 3 or > 4 for a time. Moderate or rough becoming slight or moderate. Showers. > Good, occasionally moderate. >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Oct 19 12:58:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2867A3A0A1F for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F7nN0wuzqApA for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB9473A0A8C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 12:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:9937:ce73:118c:3221]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B6AF600C9C; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 22:57:23 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1634673443; bh=EAWAoP3GtyoropUZ0KG/SZL+byWxxEzVHN9avHAES5E=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=gOjYlYzmkUnPJGWD3QFggHDp4VZyYGw7pIvz36Ve16T1lP8gvmyFAEWWMMD+bhbnd 5ur0BgKtowbkxX1HeMmjFO2zE+S1tlBNGWkRNAe40ICvhRJhH85Mz9ZZI4kFHuH8GG U7SSU4g0R2OKBa2uY69mRWUNKQMHetkh7q2x+pbs= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_88D19D13-11B7-4FAA-865C-338E7E90E31A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 22:57:20 +0300 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , John R Levine , Tools Team Discussion To: Robert Sparks References: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> <22246.1634655986@localhost> X-MailScanner-ID: 8B6AF600C9C.A3C3D X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:58:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_88D19D13-11B7-4FAA-865C-338E7E90E31A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-10-19, at 22:01, Robert Sparks wrote: > The list didn't rewrite your email address in this case because you've = published a policy of p=3Dnone. We rewrite on p=3Dquarantine or = p=3Dreject. ah. I think I left it at that because I was still testing my = configuration. Since that's what's causing the test issues, I will = switch to p=3Dquarantine and see what that does. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_88D19D13-11B7-4FAA-865C-338E7E90E31A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmFvIyAACgkQVLXDCb9w wVcsMxAAvJ+BtpScPJX8zZnddp/OUma1MuzpQg+bGC1U99IfVAjvvuzP6vzdB5gM HajSE0JGeBAFpt0h2MCgJwNz4SfbxUxdt+44S0hZmg136Tf4NQy6emL3XHfGb+Vq OsSi1FfxlsyI58EMNPi2Y6FUlBDo1rsQ2/icONUMHNIgCfQrM7F1mXn47JiJd8WR sE3SAxTNDP8dU+6i1YpF/IWZJv/OC+tVLt9OFoOQI7HbiYhw6IeLxOSBdsYP5ytS q8f82yCtClYsbqrU0cG81WXFV3fkW5EaIAZdzCKv+JJ+Ok5sl97R6MWz87ryuObf 50+sjU1t2dZu0LeR3iUcc9ThJThsGj+aGkZ/NdpiAXDaPnjHyjtxxk4aCD1VhcMi yjQpv8cDtd129qR+eTN8VU/LCkle9eyn+QCeKoMmwhR9ISiknbIwT6/VyMnqXIVw Cp9ihv3IWSAB5coFUd67/SHet9Q6iDkpH/komF9pN/6wjDMCGlwpHk8aWmlyMaQx NVSh4wHRke7AtlRptZHeWS9Yvs/pdAdzAkLp6uS40rvbh5+u5EmWHjbFUQ1ay1Kt XwUxMLtQE0iqmfzXEgIp+ysTGi5/FGb2lqZ3FoOstjDwjL/QS1rIdY5TcbxAJCXZ eue0yMQoGEWiRLUXxbrjYUmvPYA2TcqLWzbYJr938OEwOrCGxaw= =xTdz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_88D19D13-11B7-4FAA-865C-338E7E90E31A-- From nobody Tue Oct 19 13:13:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094DA3A0B15 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Dk34o9un; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=08eeCJHW Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vn1QMWVn3kbO for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CB823A0B03 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 61074 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2021 20:13:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=ee90.616f26f9.k2110; bh=2O18L6jm9Zn2+8ECVf9pOZsFDcREke37pkWUoOuJDQw=; b=Dk34o9unOx51D2mUTGpGfJSjWF7l6iKSA0KIBPVWhF3Zt7RsrMTj3s8u+HWOxrH9Zq4jQXEbVrgnCcJ1qeuoE2x7PgHydYSQ1Ln2zN/+U8cPp6GxGKmf5SfOfo8HBD8mJT1api1nrdohRjbMEh+BYBvZoj2U6hzOGaZ9cyfM0SzcibeRCB1bL98kE3VykARt4vLrgAQWLjTmMim4OKpNMDwMRoAM14VsT0OFtWp8ID6n+bRjpLIK7AU3tY4Fl5zY22sBAh9GABr3VZqgxZAJ+c346Fzvi7E8W9ORJRKfU+HWVxjaz6+p281YprqKDi4LfqX2vDPm983wzLTq7Lw4/g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=ee90.616f26f9.k2110; bh=2O18L6jm9Zn2+8ECVf9pOZsFDcREke37pkWUoOuJDQw=; b=08eeCJHWlNJJXV813++5+xQUwXw8frL72GyFHEdXCPFUXqS4l3bG4AZ9Ylric1E5VjCSfOKohDLFeZlhv1YmQsqgYX8ZTaaWnduBBBPKYGL4LWraF2HgkHxzTLCF+i0ukm3OMin4/ZkBvsN+BG3m/5VUqsiGgh6XhpvBVyZ9yAfODvnxaEyERv3/IWEaH/B5IYWpH/uyhYFOowz8EEQCks87JSYj1Oeh9w0BDGDt4TBy9EPLY7FHrH8TOJgmhPu0xHas5xfgr7MURnkZVeCmPggS/u3myhpxtRmKaMuv7agYi5C0GqI338mq5ogqhcGfcY5U3ObzyNu7gzN5q/BSGg== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 19 Oct 2021 20:13:45 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 221392B0F1C8; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C8C2B0F1AA; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: 19 Oct 2021 16:13:43 -0400 Message-ID: <95afefad-1d83-4b76-5c1a-6c84ea456db@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Lars Eggert" , "Robert Sparks" Cc: "Michael Richardson" , "Tools Team Discussion" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <2B758216-8155-4C15-BFBD-9D11F1D57DB5@eggert.org> <22246.1634655986@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 20:13:55 -0000 >> The list didn't rewrite your email address in this case because you've published a policy of p=none. We rewrite on p=quarantine or p=reject. > > ah. I think I left it at that because I was still testing my configuration. Since that's what's causing the test issues, I will switch to p=quarantine and see what that does. Do yourself a favor and don't do that. The IETF lists will rewrite your address, but most other lists won't. Unless you are a major phish target, which seems unlikely, p=quarantine causes far more problems than it solves. I've been publishing p=none on all of my domains for a decade and my mail has not collapsed. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Oct 19 14:49:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D54D3A0062 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n8oMhXm9z7Kb for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8557A3A0061 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713934112A7A; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7S8X7GbjNPB; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E18BD4112A72; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 14:48:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:48:51 +1300 Cc: Nick Giard To: Tools Team Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] New Senior Software Developer started yesterday X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 21:49:03 -0000 I=E2=80=99m pleased to announce that our new Senior Software Developer, = Nick Giard, started yesterday. His job title would have been the same = as Kesara=E2=80=99s, Senior SDE, but where he lives the word 'engineer' = is regulated and so he has a slightly different title. Nick has been a Javascript and open source developer for many years. He = will be working for us for 80% of his time as he wants to work the other = 20% on an open source project. Nick's work will be coordinated by = Robert as the Tools Team PM. As our previous open recruitment process only produced one recruit, Nick = was found by us reaching out so you may not have been aware that this = was coming. We are not planning any more recruitment and our now = looking to add technical capacity solely through contractors as with our = most recent RFP for DBA services [1]. Please feel free to contact me directly if you have any questions. Jay [1] https://www.ietf.org/about/administration/rfps-and-contracts/ --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Tue Oct 19 16:29:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA76E3A0A85 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:29:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=mdNvJeQq; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Y3zWmtXm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPFnNWtWAxdp for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE8DF3A0A6D for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947565C01B1 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:29:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; s=fm1; bh=shF4Jq1dj0 QDYnQuYejEbcptNzWOetuKzPQSw6ZEYXQ=; b=mdNvJeQqm1eqaKbTQqGW+XJopi wKBlaE8iNkNcLLloOrV6eoAAFhScda6ansL7dHZwZ/1Yv+Bw43zl7wmWN/9mfsIV 53cmFwISbB8Jg3UsiCQsyTFy+FE+TBD8O2WsSr+ow3K43Mgskl7bWi8kZ/U0lE9t 88fYfM1myw9DsZiniXZy9cVp0FZZsVgi+a+lYY5SfEoL9CH0kgQVji3mg4fEq1uu GmHYO9srAl0lE6AE4RqiYGAi65NJEyS4MQ4xA2DaW9iFKr37XmlVCifgkyQQVXo0 SOIh9ks6o8OQrKA+Buj9rhTXnfKN3LFgEkFvL0KC10H/JDeWhMG1zIDIDOyA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=shF4Jq1dj0QDYnQuYejEbcptNzWOetuKzPQSw6ZEY XQ=; b=Y3zWmtXmHQFeV/tqHqODRanBrg6Lem9v14tNS8VOPuMKOeBnLXOnblEfT 5vfT6Xwn2tCvAsZ/M2NPhJkQAbqI64HOAQsHcLxIqKCmQK98X9k2ySx9Y5HikNV0 rr6El0FOo4CmDedZyVcE7S5DNAgzp/xDpPVMH+ZTZ8FKRrcPCU1hjOsQBmgz0aqx tO2Hx7E/kxO3aHZlYFOYs8+DHbAhivfwahTKFl8hdtqxHct5l5gEFjL/T6OmQqma zVcw5j3ATaO6X9+4q2kwAF0VjgrfYOHD/SG7veny3MTC48LWNPs5WO5zkz7m/5aP pqv9GNJDUQdVdBAunOb/f2YI+E12g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvfedgvddtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffffhfvjgfkofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeduheelieegjedtieegveegveefleffleeikefgieetteetjeelueefjeffueek leenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpmhhnohhtrd hnvghtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhep mhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 19:29:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:29:23 +1100 References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> To: Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:29:35 -0000 Hi, Two things come to mind: 1) The Tools site has a 'latest' resource for the HTML and TXT versions = of each I-D. For example: = https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-targeted-cache-control.txt ... currently redirects to: = https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-targeted-cache-control-02.txt= ... whereas datatracker does not. This is useful for links in e-mail and = web pages where you want to direct people to the latest version of a = document, not a specific revision. 2) The Tools site has (scant) homepages for idnits and rfcdiff. While = the services themselves have moved to ietf.org, what about information = regarding them? I note that xml2rfc has a separate hostname under = tools.ietf.org -- is that going to be the pattern going forward? Cheers and thanks for all of the work here, > On 19 Oct 2021, at 5:46 pm, IETF Chair wrote: >=20 > Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. >=20 > In that announcement, we anticipated shutdown before IETF 111. That = was over-ambitious, but we are getting close to ready to complete the = transition, and expect to finalize it before IETF 113. >=20 > As expected, most functionality has moved to the datatracker. A few = services have, or will be, moved elsewhere. >=20 > We are tracking the moved services at = https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan. If there are = features at tools.ietf.org that you find important that are not yet = available elsewhere or captured on that page, please send a note to = tools-discuss@ietf.org. If you are more comfortable doing so, send a = note to me (lars@eggert.org) or to Robert Sparks (rjsparks@nostrum.com). >=20 > Thank you for your patience as we complete this transition. >=20 > Robert Sparks, Tools Team Lead > Lars Eggert, IETF Chair -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Oct 19 16:36:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A16F3A0B02 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:36:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qrERTOGB4ViS for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B768C3A0B00 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19JNafUj028246 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:36:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634686601; bh=VWF5YvEXbxhAt1spOZJjSk0d1cBJUPwJe+gESpADQeg=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=pHH/L4D7VDwq7gGrm2NL1M+3zX+fTZCF+2C5g+vFhSnBddfHTVNmUIFCsppwJM4wT EktPIogV13sgthNX81nnnSjlzSADGnRDbosFt2SsGpozapUFHcsBVt4uTblaq+J9DD 9zwivgog/+pC/yrPxluzRwBT8LI/qagam7mo0fwg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <81093bc6-3815-a7ac-5c45-0185fe73cf36@nostrum.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 18:36:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:36:52 -0000 On 10/19/21 6:29 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi, > > Two things come to mind: > > 1) The Tools site has a 'latest' resource for the HTML and TXT versions of each I-D. For example: > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-targeted-cache-control.txt > ... currently redirects to: > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-httpbis-targeted-cache-control-02.txt > ... whereas datatracker does not. This exists for htmlized documents. Try https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-targeted-cache-control Right now, the datatracker doesn't serve the raw text, the www.ietf.org website does. It is on the list to work out whether that's really the best thing to do, and work out a 'latest' service in the process. > This is useful for links in e-mail and web pages where you want to direct people to the latest version of a document, not a specific revision. > > 2) The Tools site has (scant) homepages for idnits and rfcdiff. While the services themselves have moved to ietf.org, what about information regarding them? I am tracking this, and will reply later with the final decision on this. > I note that xml2rfc has a separate hostname under tools.ietf.org -- is that going to be the pattern going forward? xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org will be replaced as well. The bibxml service replacement will be delivered soon. We have an early implementation of the replacement for the ui running already at author-tools.ietf.org. > > Cheers and thanks for all of the work here, > > > >> On 19 Oct 2021, at 5:46 pm, IETF Chair wrote: >> >> Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. >> >> In that announcement, we anticipated shutdown before IETF 111. That was over-ambitious, but we are getting close to ready to complete the transition, and expect to finalize it before IETF 113. >> >> As expected, most functionality has moved to the datatracker. A few services have, or will be, moved elsewhere. >> >> We are tracking the moved services at https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan. If there are features at tools.ietf.org that you find important that are not yet available elsewhere or captured on that page, please send a note to tools-discuss@ietf.org. If you are more comfortable doing so, send a note to me (lars@eggert.org) or to Robert Sparks (rjsparks@nostrum.com). >> >> Thank you for your patience as we complete this transition. >> >> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Lead >> Lars Eggert, IETF Chair > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Tue Oct 19 16:56:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP 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bh=lrBasYTj7Bm3T9+ana5kPyeLAu65FOEuK6BOMZ0fwOg=; b=JNTAmDGalswp1z70Nw7FCJjm/qOAxh4jaGiCLSuuSKKzCHrAXh9p8eAu7c0EC6b2lKZefdFlTi9ALc/WBq9/eV4H45ZqSU6YFBsh6zsDFE9Kf6TGRS5OkYyvhKmZzqJpzeHyH0N4yJwRe1ZkHtEzrSPS2GhbKHJ0Fp1Q2onbKP0= Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:2af::17) by BYAPR11MB3222.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:79::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.16; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:56:08 +0000 Received: from SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::40b6:e593:6016:87b7]) by SJ0PR11MB5053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::40b6:e593:6016:87b7%8]) with mapi id 15.20.4608.018; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:56:08 +0000 From: "Charles Eckel (eckelcu)" To: Executive Director CC: Tools Team Discussion , Nick Giard Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] New Senior Software Developer started yesterday Thread-Index: AQHXxTM1dcpCGdDRcEGCGKdcucH9M6va/12A Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:56:08 +0000 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PiBUb29scy1kaXNj dXNzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCAtIFRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0Zi5vcmcgVGhpcyBsaXN0IGlzIGZv ciANCj4+IGRpc2N1c3Npb24sIG5vdCBmb3IgYWN0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3RzIG9yIGJ1ZyByZXBvcnRz Lg0KPj4gKiBSZXBvcnQgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgYW5kIG1haWxhcmNoaXZlIGJ1Z3MgdG86IA0KPj4g ZGF0YXRyYWNrZXItcHJvamVjdEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gKiBSZXBvcnQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcg YnVncyB0bzogd2VibWFzdGVyQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+PiAqIFJlcG9ydCBhbGwgb3RoZXIg YnVncyBvciBpc3N1ZXMgdG86IGlldGYtYWN0aW9uQGlldGYub3JnIExpc3QgaW5mbyANCj4+IChp bmNsdWRpbmcgaG93IHRvIFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlKTogDQo+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Rvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3MNCj4gDQo+IA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Oct 19 22:41:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F2583A0A3C for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 22:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XDgSW_4tZ866 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EF423A0A3B for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (85-76-66-155-nat.elisa-mobile.fi [85.76.66.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC4D9600C9C; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:40:53 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1634708453; bh=jj/zoLCgOIVegh2Ug8nuG6Y3PyuQV7/YF0L0EemYgxY=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To; b=jM2NzaIK24PKFo+1Go1gc+4DOgWMG4BP08W7nk6B30QGMMSMcj7pAmskUpUZJiOgY e15vW+hJuJGdWRZExTTuFdf4M8DHvaI8myLvKODlGGQvIuYOVBXU9grWXrhefHQNev XG6D8KjnISkE3NA+gQyzKk/B6bxUEUkqvSksfE6g= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Lars Eggert Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:40:52 +0300 Message-Id: References: <95afefad-1d83-4b76-5c1a-6c84ea456db@taugh.com> Cc: Robert Sparks , Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion In-Reply-To: <95afefad-1d83-4b76-5c1a-6c84ea456db@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-MailScanner-ID: DC4D9600C9C.A6DC2 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 05:41:11 -0000 So you just ignore diagnostic messages like the ones I forwarded? I get seve= ral for each email I send to IETF.org --=20 Sent from a mobile device; please excuse typos. > On Oct 19, 2021, at 23:14, John R Levine wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>> The list didn't rewrite your email address in this case because you've p= ublished a policy of p=3Dnone. We rewrite on p=3Dquarantine or p=3Dreject. >>=20 >> ah. I think I left it at that because I was still testing my configuratio= n. Since that's what's causing the test issues, I will switch to p=3Dquarant= ine and see what that does. >=20 > Do yourself a favor and don't do that. >=20 > The IETF lists will rewrite your address, but most other lists won't. >=20 > Unless you are a major phish target, which seems unlikely, p=3Dquarantine c= auses far more problems than it solves. >=20 > I've been publishing p=3Dnone on all of my domains for a decade and my mai= l has not collapsed. >=20 > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Oct 19 23:44:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128103A0654 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YGQp3GJn; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=gnEuk/Ap Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aTTeKjLMUSXh for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F8D73A0653 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47C13201D2B for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 02:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Oct 2021 02:44:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:date:from:to:subject:content-type; s= fm3; bh=GFWQhYm07TFVsrqOUIEEfydnba5C50qLvuKGnVcJGbs=; b=YGQp3GJn XUiq3ihWOI6xcKsJ/Gev2ELYMoTG0Bt1F460L+1OrRlztWd+YOjeyIKGlTAX2ngi ORp4YWRrysXWbK5zNquBGiFlhrlRnr0jmyfoQubrVkg6PqsQAP399yOtgPx94pjM noye1XDMz/xEuopqWBKLjzngjB5mV2qNmN6iC/JtpebzCzmKa5HJzlEptBdwUx6z muq4nzYaSEFoaI3e8JOv3VjeMKABzyH3wH76O9BwnVpkhqi1G8dupFcEAvdo52Zq FyMI94Ubyy1Foo5kTJ5Zvp2FvF9fwVVawd/MaasGsGCbpBRG9TCRIniJHXsMa9lP vff1sGfUkEqMrA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=GFWQhYm07TFVsrqOUIEEfydnba5C5 0qLvuKGnVcJGbs=; b=gnEuk/ApxvtmtYZHtIo3KDqZ9/nEp/qkB/EFYjQiXF7zH WwTF2Cx0x4MNIywdCkjoAvDnq1Vh3LkewyVoe4/Ht7qpOO1Q5no/trtboGmGvYkX TS0B1rk+l3qnTlEW84PmGTkr1uFkjyG9jXeHz5LxSs1eLfD+aA4NtmVc3zxWlqxP MISXoI+3kSBEcMWlBhNBzAmdJU0ysD1bQUa93UPtld6avjufdjnX+Go3tU12sRk+ /H4OGmkHWcdVyn7ljUEfHLzcAyoFUVQH5vG3TNyvbnrzWcWrZL5H+GAsmzjYVELk ce5DirpOczDWnhURb3ccOLlHNndoGadK0tykr8Emw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvfedguddthecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkfffhvffutgesthdtre dtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghrthhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohif vghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepiefhvdeugefhjeeigeevue egueegtdfgudejffefjeegieefkedugffgfeefkedunecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhu sgdrtghomhdptggrshhurghlqdgvfhhfvggtthhsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuih iivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidr nhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4E85E3C0AEC; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 02:43:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9e9b2c6b-3632-44d1-9245-b096fa27d28d@www.fastmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 17:43:39 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Art to SVG alternative X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 06:44:10 -0000 goat[1] is a pretty great tool for what we are doing here. It allows us to generate text diagams and have them render as nice SVGs. It's almost like it was built specifically for the IETF :) As we've learned though, goat makes something of a mess of the text. Julian contributed a neat XSLT tool for fixing up the output, but that seemed ...unsatisfactory. goat is open source, so it could be fixed. Based on activity on the repo, however, it seems like it might be derelict. The last update was in 2016. I learned that goat is a port of part of a javascript tool called markdeep[2]. Markdeep seems like it is actively maintained. The underlying library is not directly accessible - markdeep is a single blob that includes lots of extra stuff - but a few tweaks were all that was necessary to port it to nodejs. Then I fixed the bug. The result is at https://github.com/martinthomson/aasvg It's available with `npm install`. This includes a few options for adjusting the output, but nothing significant yet. It should be easy to adjust the output to suit our needs. The original code is very clear and easy to understand. It doesn't draw little people[3], but I'd be happy to work with anyone who wanted to teach it that. [1] https://github.com/blampe/goat [2] https://casual-effects.com/markdeep/ [3] https://github.com/blampe/goat/issues/4 From nobody Wed Oct 20 05:01:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94BF33A0063 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 05:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=lCFjV2Gc; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=h+eZh7Ng Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2gFRC0L1iOqI for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 05:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 682323A005F for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 05:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7BD3201124 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap41 ([10.202.2.91]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:01:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=xNZlzpF7EcCmf6GugnwvmZF1KGsh2zj a/LHR1xwl5Ek=; b=lCFjV2GcJ9WbBvHaeSKe3umwPU9YjeFLkupUbIPYvGj4/aJ 7UTKLcxTxgCtT9CU+xHLcFCe5L5AMj6MglgzKrrvEJGJiSg0Wx6fN24HnggXa2qH UZkVRfMbwpVjbBeQV/VwUjvev+PctfBMcALFg7tOZnrh5CQKlqgRgRUk7GGo0X5s +SojRoEE5LLfmq2pTRY0kSByLGJB/BUkN9ImbxcPFkeYcUbExDY6SV8qDe8ZDCc5 OHXeipfawsbQJO5GOJucFSbNGM1Uw9mdO70d9Fvc2YqdODjvUCrbhmiNMvvXv1X8 6YE3b0CBe8YCytW4IJM2TJe0B9kCLK5ipHEZThw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=xNZlzp F7EcCmf6GugnwvmZF1KGsh2zja/LHR1xwl5Ek=; b=h+eZh7NgXjolSmKzO0m2xe FhwNgshTPW7rnCjnzjv1qFx+1qApmFogfwZvLwuJv37OSrqXi2wvCS7dt3F4Eb7o 2uPajvyRcoSZ+i/Qoi/bZ1oqaULuQNKDty5+PJW3BAR72kMs50Cgh3tvAlY4RiNt oVf1UgvALHAyvp7e0hhMb8DYHknzvXYEcjc9QUBCao/PP60az6PfPvMwIQkSGVk7 fn5TjgVQSVL72tQbLM0pvL0sgikuJZxG43QM5MXEcVe3TyCdaHhEGSpimIBr1r7Y YKvheDbq8jK19V92BgNkaaHqcbMeMpFsZOX0CqH3Dq1k/xGIfVX1739FSwAkT8Rw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrvddvgedggeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedtvedtvdegveekieetke dugfffudeigedvhffffefgvdelffekteevgfefuedthfenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8FEE43C0AEC; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 08:01:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-1369-gd055fb5e7c-fm-20211018.002-gd055fb5e Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 23:00:51 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:01:20 -0000 On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, at 10:29, Mark Nottingham wrote: > 2) The Tools site has (scant) homepages for idnits and rfcdiff. While > the services themselves have moved to ietf.org, what about information > regarding them? I note that xml2rfc has a separate hostname under > tools.ietf.org -- is that going to be the pattern going forward? I opened https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan/issues/3 to track this, but I also have a toolchain that depended on tools.ietf.org for retrieving these tools for installation. If releases of these tools become available elsewhere, that would be nice. For now, I've stopped installing these tools because tools.ietf.org is no longer serving the resources I was relying on. To be clear, this is less of a big deal than the other things Mark raised. From nobody Wed Oct 20 07:49:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 194BC3A044E for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=L95bKCsP; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=em7Kkvju Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AMfuJn3brEw for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB5E63A03FC for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2527 invoked from network); 20 Oct 2021 14:49:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=9dd.61702c5d.k2110; bh=vY4Je20rLtSZMZnGmzdkUPMEC1KDtPnPkR/0h3DnbxY=; b=L95bKCsPbwIRUd4HwBJkkbFHILxMxKpadn6ysCV8u1RV0U399+4t28om5gG97xrpzGoz+Xxjo7OtuxoFbHHHBZNEC12IpFllHBUPyyPZVEgjsAnUK+Y+vazXUmwjHkLcBB7zdAN0xJmlHQwiMQJwdGLQFBI+ZbQc8tVleCi1Z6J35G/mAb2Ked4vSTCI1E5NzxijFLYphAit+wRwEmTgbMeCdjjK3bx0agE2UVyMjwyyYzOud8y1Wv7THdNauSZ2y1A1iWGlcHNCF3JWjdqDX6PKkLgmIrboDsCJxnBkMBLb9euFaoK6+DSR+wiAD330ZAULCDu802rX7q0FpvGoNQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=9dd.61702c5d.k2110; bh=vY4Je20rLtSZMZnGmzdkUPMEC1KDtPnPkR/0h3DnbxY=; b=em7Kkvjua8ySZvn3iFqynqYgNVuwWMdHnMfF1/1nDKdux+8EUuAe/TUlTes4ZhGJ2H9Mxku2cz0ed2BgYEgMty21hIp0ZlGgBCx3YyPPk5t5qQA5pBqskMfiqMj8sXvVqJTABPQPIZ18LK0hbQQHXgCy0XdV12nIrutGlWVKzvGjqNc1GLUDTwRdgsk5JTs/U4NY/ZbC03INv49HWgsMiirbsy5pmdh1b8QP82koll5gLlrJXMrOCNChhMHe1OFQW2PRAmeXahWafWCDG0te7vR92cKqtGL68IgJj8JHuyRvVdH2+PO7rl9hxTITJvS2/KTXTSe0ylCxODiKBCkeYw== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 20 Oct 2021 14:49:01 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5A01A2B1562C; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA3C2B1560E; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: 20 Oct 2021 10:48:59 -0400 Message-ID: <162c9267-54b5-acd1-77bb-11a25e374762@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Lars Eggert" Cc: "Robert Sparks" , "Michael Richardson" , "Tools Team Discussion" X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <95afefad-1d83-4b76-5c1a-6c84ea456db@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] DKIM/DMARC/email security question X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:49:11 -0000 > So you just ignore diagnostic messages like the ones I forwarded? I get several for each email I send to IETF.org DMARC reports are intended to be read by machines, not by people. That's why the aggregate reports are blobs of XML and the failure reports are ARF. Mine go to an address where a script parses the report (if it can, some reporters didn't bother to read the RFC) to put a summary in a database and then file it in a folder. I never see them. Looking at that folder, I see a bunch for every message I send to an IETF list and even more for messages I send to NANOG. That's how it is supposed to work. R's, John PS: The scripts are at https://www.taugh.com/rddmarc From nobody Wed Oct 20 07:58:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01B93A059F for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:58:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UDxxu6KF_6yH for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC9AA3A05AA for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 07:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429B718087; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id HwHo3t5mfrVp; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF89018012; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961F6B91; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:58:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Martin Thomson" cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9e9b2c6b-3632-44d1-9245-b096fa27d28d@www.fastmail.com> References: <9e9b2c6b-3632-44d1-9245-b096fa27d28d@www.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Art to SVG alternative X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:58:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I feel that goat is far more likely to be apt-get'able than npm stuff in the future. I sure prefer go binaries to npm all over the place. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmFwLqYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXtVgf+IgnMNydPyxxFYirkHN7KY7JCrir2eZt0G/1IyHkefDU8Q5hYcf/oZ2tA 6/wX1I5wPTMwK5KRJjc73ozSSgZVrWkkKPrhivBWQHTSY+TvRgHdtAtFJlJ2lsD4 wUDe6G97SwIGrKroZ9u61RPaO6j9KdkknRfgII0RsQdpPUblcbk43MpO4lJvE7m1 wTqKf5EH/Fb3sEATezZMHvzegxJpl+H3ll4Y/Db4mUQbO/Wg8uZ+9o5PS4qqTn4G FtbC3KYqOYRMZ9WkZeBMVNlJID5sOilSrQxxYMwijnWHS1KYD5Q+Qk/eGKnFhaA+ tTbpNkppUueUzliIgrYa/Xx9Q7LvbQ== =mtqE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 20 10:01:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914373A0A3A for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 10:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of alum.mit.edu designates 18.7.68.33 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.7.68.33; helo=outgoing-alum.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing-alum.mit.edu (18.7.68.33) by DM3NAM02FT047.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.13.4.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4608.15 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 17:00:53 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.52] (c-24-62-227-142.hsd1.ma.comcast.net [24.62.227.142]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as pkyzivat@ALUM.MIT.EDU) by outgoing-alum.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 19KH0pml017927 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:00:52 -0400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 13:00:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Tools Team Discussion References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> From: Paul Kyzivat In-Reply-To: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6e21ba28-642f-40c2-406d-08d993eb2d46 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: MN2PR12MB4549: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(36840700001)(46966006)(2616005)(966005)(8676002)(82310400003)(75432002)(8936002)(53546011)(31696002)(26005)(508600001)(2906002)(7596003)(356005)(36860700001)(5660300002)(83380400001)(31686004)(70206006)(336012)(36906005)(47076005)(316002)(86362001)(186003)(6916009)(956004)(786003)(70586007)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2021 17:00:53.3643 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6e21ba28-642f-40c2-406d-08d993eb2d46 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM3NAM02FT047.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR12MB4549 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 17:01:12 -0000 Is there a replacement for the old tools page that had descriptions of and links to all sorts of tools? It wasn't well organized but it was my go to place to find tools. Also, will Bap be rehosted somewhere? Thanks, Paul On 10/19/21 2:46 AM, IETF Chair wrote: > Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. > > In that announcement, we anticipated shutdown before IETF 111. That was over-ambitious, but we are getting close to ready to complete the transition, and expect to finalize it before IETF 113. > > As expected, most functionality has moved to the datatracker. A few services have, or will be, moved elsewhere. > > We are tracking the moved services at https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan. If there are features at tools.ietf.org that you find important that are not yet available elsewhere or captured on that page, please send a note to tools-discuss@ietf.org. If you are more comfortable doing so, send a note to me (lars@eggert.org) or to Robert Sparks (rjsparks@nostrum.com). > > Thank you for your patience as we complete this transition. > > Robert Sparks, Tools Team Lead > Lars Eggert, IETF Chair > From nobody Wed Oct 20 12:35:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261403A0DE4 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dsgHOlatp_K9 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04F583A0DDE for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id d3so304150edp.3 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Q9649Fr26VGwr3EMMAAKc3SDNIgqtrl1Vl4q+m3Vjnk=; b=hU4oZYztWn5QY42sRFjAvIXI6O7phxoZ0IfDVCpfoA9xNvAdn/ldoxhtPz7PIrNqzs jyDf4A/eBBnopJZjBLWei3yKZuZeBsVJAJOZZQMqH9yfdlwY+6XVHZmM3jEAWSxFnTax 0u81yTtuxm99hug63D9MCwMfV2Dkoy5ouBmbetXpgr8P9y2VDG2ApeVo9UnJZugsx0Ls vlxB9NhnaQ37y3XOVsWpMcBDBg0kf2hVV0Bwb1TUhegc6TbcHtfxwMzZ7KB1zOCBWSNC KXpBiXWhmuoBa38J7tKcOriWVhaiJdhVYMo7dt3XWtlCWA4x78P0C3LTARMq+nQNOPtu EBog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Q9649Fr26VGwr3EMMAAKc3SDNIgqtrl1Vl4q+m3Vjnk=; b=pvKwg4bVShT+dr/B1YPO8w0IX1SqhKk6v0IxPY/fTbU66MCD7ZVnEb17bgZDol1K0i Y/6/C33I7LHl+V5QesUEgKtzgNWGFeANIbB/4cijnqvwlr+ECsOckeCXE/zmTS7Zxa7Z 5IoN9JON+RbSQnY9F6cHu3TYIyUxshw9DtqHTNeaJaim1uEvzkhB00/4J9ODv5hCgVD7 Zz8L6LhdExGnnfnGhJKnBQWjvPTfmP+5IN4/ssk9eioVz03pN30zcRv7YtR/7mOmcK8U 4MUZo5mLt24xalK8PecwX1CxFiKCF4s0QLcSECv6ijf0XdMLIU6JUxgBaWffUctc8zsH 4Kpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531oqoChvG23/OXWfAs65TKvOMpxhlSTCCpNVoh+v3+hdabwxunz 3Wr1sYbiuX4Lyt8rJ08gnJ/5uVXoNOw+SXlymqZA/Ou0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzATkQKoGsJ3ibZOMpTwSmnIXG/vAH3/ikyUu1NDs1pFpi4B/hZ5QpEMus1k3HEVmpxqAJ1ULmwsW9g7BE9mMQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:4248:: with SMTP id g8mr1233733edb.126.1634758548641; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:35:37 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095dc3805cecde2ec" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Looking for help to undo "draft-A replaces draft-B" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 19:35:54 -0000 --00000000000095dc3805cecde2ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, due to the misunderstanding, I've marked a draft as being replaced. I'm looking for help, guidance on how to undo that, remove that tag from the draft-B. I greatly appreciate your suggestions, help. Regards, Greg --00000000000095dc3805cecde2ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,
    due to the misunderstanding, I've marked a dra= ft as being replaced. I'm looking for help, guidance on how to undo tha= t, remove that tag from the draft-B. I greatly appreciate your suggestions,= help.

    Regards,
    Greg
    --00000000000095dc3805cecde2ec-- From nobody Wed Oct 20 12:59:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050A23A0E18 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:59:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MW3km37RAOXi for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 975CF3A0E14 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19KJxO04065253 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:59:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634759965; bh=2xwsMuO/TjMGCqVfMPzqh9pK1YQLHIfKmvlUcb3ypas=; h=Date:Subject:References:To:From:In-Reply-To; b=QEvfM/bAsUxbYhhN3BrPaOTneQ2q54wLoNWkynnust9EJU7H/NvCY2YzquHiwTzMK gDPOsqQWdCQ1gnkCkg06n4p1EIo/67n1To/PQmzTLWat5YWZTz33LNlYfwCU644f56 vonBkbVOzwjBmGash1LqmYUmPnBOx0pyXJErpcz4= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Vl0btxIorbLHNQZKWgqIizoT" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:59:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 References: <163475940345.8195.3821360655769443770@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <163475940345.8195.3821360655769443770@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <163475940345.8195.3821360655769443770@ietfa.amsl.com> Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Fwd: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-10-27 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 19:59:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Vl0btxIorbLHNQZKWgqIizoT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forwarding the first of two (each have the same information) FYI. These sprints, as you know are on Oct 27 and 28. RjS -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-10-27 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:50:03 -0700 From: IESG Secretary To: IETF-Announce CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2021-10-27 from 11:00 to 15:00 America/Chicago (16:00 to 20:00 UTC). Agenda: Performance oriented Code Sprint Day 1 Locations: Day 1: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=2bdb0bf8-6ac7-4211-b808-b1a430c515b2 Day 2: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=174b6e06-74be-4342-9d02-958d6f545d81 Information about remote participation: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=2bdb0bf8-6ac7-4211-b808-b1a430c515b2 _______________________________________________ TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development --------------Vl0btxIorbLHNQZKWgqIizoT Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    Forwarding the first of two (each have the same information) FYI.

    These sprints, as you know are on Oct 27 and 28.

    RjS



    -------- Forwarded Message --------
    Subject: [TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT] The Tools Team (tools) TEAM Virtual Meeting: 2021-10-27
    Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 12:50:03 -0700
    From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
    To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
    CC: tools-development@ietf.org, codesprints@ietf.org


    The The Tools Team (tools) Team will hold
    a virtual interim meeting on 2021-10-27 from 11:00 to 15:00 America/Chicago (16:00 to 20:00 UTC).

    Agenda:
    Performance oriented Code Sprint Day 1

    Locations:
    Day 1: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=2bdb0bf8-6ac7-4211-b808-b1a430c515b2
    Day 2: https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=174b6e06-74be-4342-9d02-958d6f545d81

    Information about remote participation:
    https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=2bdb0bf8-6ac7-4211-b808-b1a430c515b2

    _______________________________________________
    TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT mailing list
    TOOLS-DEVELOPMENT@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-development
--------------Vl0btxIorbLHNQZKWgqIizoT-- From nobody Wed Oct 20 14:46:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4993A1388 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hj96_A81CsZp for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C87913A1386 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BCE4127875; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pFueELAOkpmJ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3915141274F9; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 14:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 10:46:25 +1300 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 21:46:35 -0000 > On 21/10/2021, at 6:00 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >=20 > Is there a replacement for the old tools page that had descriptions of = and links to all sorts of tools? It wasn't well organized but it was my = go to place to find tools. We have a wiki under development that takes a more structured approach = but provide the same data. See the "tools for authors" section of pages = at authors.ietf.org. Jay >=20 > Also, will Bap be rehosted somewhere? >=20 > Thanks, > Paul >=20 > On 10/19/21 2:46 AM, IETF Chair wrote: >> Last May we announced that tools.ietf.org would be wound down. See = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/0n-6EXEmkTp3Uv_vj-5Vnm3o0bo/. >> In that announcement, we anticipated shutdown before IETF 111. That = was over-ambitious, but we are getting close to ready to complete the = transition, and expect to finalize it before IETF 113. >> As expected, most functionality has moved to the datatracker. A few = services have, or will be, moved elsewhere. >> We are tracking the moved services at = https://github.com/ietf-tools/tools-transition-plan. If there are = features at tools.ietf.org that you find important that are not yet = available elsewhere or captured on that page, please send a note to = tools-discuss@ietf.org. If you are more comfortable doing so, send a = note to me (lars@eggert.org) or to Robert Sparks (rjsparks@nostrum.com). >> Thank you for your patience as we complete this transition. >> Robert Sparks, Tools Team Lead >> Lars Eggert, IETF Chair >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Oct 20 15:31:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BA73A091F; 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Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:31:23 -0400 Message-ID: <98a53257-21c3-067c-4c3c-96a99a11cb1b@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 18:31:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Jay Daley Cc: Tools Team Discussion References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> From: Paul Kyzivat In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7cf0766d-683e-4972-13b1-08d9941959cb X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BN6PR12MB1891: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:8882; X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:18.7.68.33; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; PTR:outgoing-alum.mit.edu; CAT:NONE; SFS:(36840700001)(46966006)(86362001)(450100002)(4326008)(4744005)(47076005)(36906005)(316002)(70586007)(186003)(6916009)(786003)(336012)(956004)(75432002)(8676002)(26005)(70206006)(8936002)(53546011)(2616005)(36860700001)(7596003)(356005)(31686004)(82310400003)(31696002)(5660300002)(508600001)(2906002)(43740500002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; X-OriginatorOrg: alum.mit.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2021 22:31:24.8931 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7cf0766d-683e-4972-13b1-08d9941959cb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=3326b102-c043-408b-a990-b89e477d582f; Ip=[18.7.68.33]; Helo=[outgoing-alum.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM3NAM02FT020.eop-nam02.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN6PR12MB1891 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 22:31:33 -0000 On 10/20/21 5:46 PM, Jay Daley wrote: > > >> On 21/10/2021, at 6:00 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >> Is there a replacement for the old tools page that had descriptions of and links to all sorts of tools? It wasn't well organized but it was my go to place to find tools. > > We have a wiki under development that takes a more structured approach but provide the same data. See the "tools for authors" section of pages at authors.ietf.org. The tools-catalog seems to be what I am looking for. But at the moment, while it gives info on tools it doesn't seem to link to them. Is that just a matter of it being a work in progress? > Jay > >> >> Also, will Bap be rehosted somewhere? I see it is mentioned in the tools catalog. Still seeking a link. But I don't have a current need for it, so I'm not in a rush, as long as it isn't forgotten. Thanks, Paul From nobody Wed Oct 20 15:34:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3633A094F for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:34:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dikWl1cOv4AP for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.ietf.org [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07333A0922 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C31D4127886; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lfz1khA8DnHM; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [158.140.230.105]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A3F34127875; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 15:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.100.0.2.22\)) From: Jay Daley In-Reply-To: <98a53257-21c3-067c-4c3c-96a99a11cb1b@alum.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:33:54 +1300 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6CAFC345-A2F5-4507-BCDC-0DBEC55CC697@ietf.org> References: <085D9163-9BBC-465C-9C59-929992CCB079@ietf.org> <98a53257-21c3-067c-4c3c-96a99a11cb1b@alum.mit.edu> To: Paul Kyzivat X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.100.0.2.22) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Reminder: tools.ietf.org is shutting down before IETF 113 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2021 22:34:05 -0000 > On 21/10/2021, at 11:31 AM, Paul Kyzivat = wrote: >=20 > On 10/20/21 5:46 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >>> On 21/10/2021, at 6:00 AM, Paul Kyzivat = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Is there a replacement for the old tools page that had descriptions = of and links to all sorts of tools? It wasn't well organized but it was = my go to place to find tools. >> We have a wiki under development that takes a more structured = approach but provide the same data. See the "tools for authors" section = of pages at authors.ietf.org. >=20 > The tools-catalog seems to be what I am looking for. But at the = moment, while it gives info on tools it doesn't seem to link to them. Is = that just a matter of it being a work in progress? Yes. Jay >=20 >> Jay >>>=20 >>> Also, will Bap be rehosted somewhere? >=20 > I see it is mentioned in the tools catalog. Still seeking a link. > But I don't have a current need for it, so I'm not in a rush, as long = as it isn't forgotten. >=20 > Thanks, > Paul >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director exec-director@ietf.org From nobody Wed Oct 20 22:16:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B3D3A005F for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 22:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jsYwJ187B__K for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 22:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F37883A003C for ; Wed, 20 Oct 2021 22:16:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1634793388; bh=/YYBOhLUDPHRrbTNmxy7Wupo169FqLTQ5u0oUoYrcUk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=KxcaxpSjOChl4uFoDOW2b0XiJGxqqsumkOXY0H3S4+qCAIHeDLEK7X8u7cJr/9NJ/ VGSKnVdF/H6Nry4p7G3TN4WWsXhMuPhtC8Luwi2T7EV/KF4gUqFDO0sP36fqR8o/hQ mNrpqKM28RWm0uili+aP379hbk6HT34YMYdJ5X8Q= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.60.180]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx004 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N0oFz-1mrlph10OD-00wpic for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:16:28 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:16:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:H4l+yhuu+Xdj/B2QX8kNFZkb0UeZAC27lkNAAYzZ8jKHwGJisV5 ckjquei+e9mhHNSGOeoGtDRNmXZXFy47iYlkHERTNtMItvqXQUZwi8/o8nJ1VA9u4yrSshO d+OTBpDrb+2xY7yGudNt8JxqiRRxljzMTBrFsIg8DujzV0QaCae+j8y36be/yOkPpzMbFY5 olb/PvHuU82x33Xg0yrwQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:iLQBvH+x0H8=:5oJ59MCZ3CCYn2pJfCGUg4 YeND6xrXcO9E+19jfkAEM5QG5F85MMgiScs6LG6p7cX5LUPZbqKxIw2rTq3bLYCrGcIx9VHh2 oVjd0EseTIaIVjRCtniPKXoLUlISucwOo8G67qdeBjXreioY9fIe67Sx48CP08fn/BgnCY7qa st5gfsaWrBdIH+V+mBr2KyePjwfXU6eKKf2ugy3L+lurZmtP0ufut7b1CuA8bdWwUAbipIhOc GtN51cYOa71/EHK+518Pl3IXQmUh1Y+cXMT8r7t63WT32Y3ELyQMfUCxvCOl63eF2LWNbaijU Uj+DaR87Y39PTnlPGHuNi8m853lw0y53a2hyHDdl07ooJSGaNto7QMI9mNj3uFY/NV9AeLl2e jKxVQo3cyYzjBuPOQuPpCY9/G+gVlGudvMAqKNS8uAA5dCB1kjJ6mnbd+JCT4UczZF9VNZWiS X5SU/pu/0BtVncR8ddzgoEtcJyknd3HduvC1/c02DE9MpmLXxw/OyNRqIT69SYkLt8DssJ1Zf Kl7i1neHOeNSmDKhUjrk4S6gxVqLQKiH2sHShm9BCTQwNTNKvo3Q7i6SmgVi/TfsdjIdmH4WS onrqRtv3Ymlv24rMiI2wosIvfDaMBJmcH3DxBQD+VrO8GnzstnhMY0gUspTvEmvUjr3sLrzw1 +/hmmHoZFIupQpF2CrFYWmHBjn+zyxB93zctB3HPUNPoVhNuxoDkvwowN6Oi4IQZKQrZnuIWM 0u+Kr+QoUwWcQMCtJE95CztLk+kU4Rdq8Mk8oTSEXBFi6knRTpJSs/LpbQn0Hz1OwmiFlT7R2 K0DQsLsfYTNNUdMV1Ko2pDz41pdfPjlj0u+EUixACBBznR3iZIAEacJN3mbYLPMVQZRtsMkax x6KfgDnUU0kuk1l6iZSsAE9ibhBCg4sCFsURE/HZ8uN02TQFkgVdTX3Mqmugq1KeqicD0MgLo tdo6Pk+GmwIUll7f5q3hUlAfgLtvXyylzSvBcm9hGx8vD7PU+05nWOrtFmWCw5Pq5nDsgs/uc q0Iv6XVXkEIYsizpRS8YIGI4eU5eqa5dUTaZL1j2C4/C5YnD8rSD9Jr41C60Z+XnhA0P+HaWg zlbgtNW+FDFEEk= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for help to undo "draft-A replaces draft-B" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 05:16:34 -0000 Am 20.10.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Greg Mirsky: > Hi, > due to the misunderstanding, I've marked a draft as being replaced. I'm > looking for help, guidance on how to undo that, remove that tag from the > draft-B. I greatly appreciate your suggestions, help. > > Regards, > Greg In doubt you can send an email to the secretariat. Best regards, Julian From nobody Thu Oct 21 05:41:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E3213A1631 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KIIRWG-VJsrg for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 05:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EFEA3A1623 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 05:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.94) for tools-discuss@ietf.org with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1mdXNU-002e8u-Ck; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:41:00 +0200 Received: from [5.61.188.205] (helo=[192.168.101.10]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.94) for tools-discuss@ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (envelope-from ) id 1mdXNU-000pgd-5i; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:41:00 +0200 Message-ID: <732e27b0-b096-2d0f-beeb-d6764a335404@fu-berlin.de> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:40:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org From: Martine Sophie Lenders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Original-Sender: m.lenders@fu-berlin.de X-Originating-IP: 5.61.188.205 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Draft not found in rsync version of xml2rfc X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 12:41:08 -0000 Hi, In our research group we use the rsync to synchronize our local bibtex files with https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/. However, one of our latest drafts draft-lenders-dns-over-coap can not be found in the list of downloaded XML files and is as such not added to our own bibtex database: $ rsync -avz --del -f "+ */" -f "+ *.xml" -f "- *" xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml /tmp/xml2rfc/ $ find /tmp/xml2rfc/ -name "*lenders*" yields no results and also searching manually shows the file corresponding XML file to not be there. Via HTTPS it exists: https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-lenders-dns-over-coap.xml. Any idea, what is happening? Best regards, Martine From nobody Thu Oct 21 07:39:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B397A3A1737 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, TRACKER_ID=0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IimPQwgSqyui for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:32::15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01A423A1733 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 07:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a10c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.161.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-smtp.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4HZqrG4b76z30LK; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <732e27b0-b096-2d0f-beeb-d6764a335404@fu-berlin.de> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:39:42 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 656519982.23959-5745e0b787a192021bf2ffddd3db0658 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <732e27b0-b096-2d0f-beeb-d6764a335404@fu-berlin.de> To: Martine Sophie Lenders X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Draft not found in rsync version of xml2rfc X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 14:39:52 -0000 Possible workaround: kramdown-rfc-cache-i-d-bibxml (gem install kramdown-rfc2629 to obtain that. Set KRAMDOWN_REFCACHEDIR to ~/.cache/xml2rfc, which is also where = xml2rfc caches.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-10-21, at 14:40, Martine Sophie Lenders = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > In our research group we use the rsync to synchronize our local bibtex = files with https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/. However, one of our latest = drafts draft-lenders-dns-over-coap can not be found in the list of = downloaded XML files and is as such not added to our own bibtex = database: >=20 > $ rsync -avz --del -f "+ */" -f "+ *.xml" -f "- *" = xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml /tmp/xml2rfc/ > $ find /tmp/xml2rfc/ -name "*lenders*" >=20 > yields no results and also searching manually shows the file = corresponding XML file to not be there. >=20 > Via HTTPS it exists: = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.draft-lend= ers-dns-over-coap.xml. Any idea, what is happening? >=20 > Best regards, > Martine >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Oct 21 09:54:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4CD3A0805 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.08 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.08 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BGC0pxyAYULS for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 053AE3A0881 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 09:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19LGsgFD011780 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:54:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634835283; bh=JicGFZfkodIqGgkCMtVFq6wx5ixf1yabj4CN/HC+U8I=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=FqljUAXJn0rllWcPCHTpkiv9BmvjTWFxiC9maXBAB9mZ78NyX0FMVB9FrluocPD0U sEbAs5TydW+jFWoIa90cEQVllUWQeyqOcf3RhMi+bwPDQ2PXKJoSXkFUbxQeLeohIx S5eyIgXv7KwYUlp00FH0cR9ezaaGB1ElG9BOX+68= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: <9c1caa86-0a01-f7ce-b1b1-06dc5580376c@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:54:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Looking for help to undo "draft-A replaces draft-B" X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 16:54:54 -0000 That's exactly the right thing to do in this situation. Please give the secretariat details on what should change and they'll make it happen. RjS On 10/21/21 12:16 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 20.10.2021 um 21:35 schrieb Greg Mirsky: >> Hi, >> due to the misunderstanding, I've marked a draft as being replaced. I'm >> looking for help, guidance on how to undo that, remove that tag from the >> draft-B. I greatly appreciate your suggestions, help. >> >> Regards, >> Greg > > In doubt you can send an email to the secretariat. > > Best regards, Julian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Oct 21 15:55:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C8B3A0E1B for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XMSNBcyGVLkm for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9F343A0E1D for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id h2so2332596ili.11 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gXdRSatVt3QnxxkvLKbu2QOT670CLPpErXnP3UNCd+w=; b=aY55cPo48K88ppByjd0vHhJ6JVo6dVyyjG3uXichipM1ctrUy8dYkLxkZb2WDoACln naXtFVO2nXPy29h4WFpUh2QVRAEIrDdr0Xv7KzyqPpLFGeoJ81xVA6IQnBBQeyS3b3N+ 8Gp7SBdvODgEFYgWG2lQlgzCXA1cP+IGnzikMn30yoWRLm722zQ+MSE6CdUiNlhXEFdF TVYt5PtS9YgGSeDxd8iT1KM6BgMnZjDuou7sCZ2DMGY2mG1ncltq8zF8Nk8VspGdZA2l JQwTlLKPgFa7hm/MnfTsYVt2HF5rT5Mqq3x8+AHWgVZr8RkRjCIyHGcXGR0E1T6vozVz y9+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=gXdRSatVt3QnxxkvLKbu2QOT670CLPpErXnP3UNCd+w=; b=RWIu/JW22Gvwfpn2CUsOizOrOAibYCnYNnR4hr0addG8ybuCGj4HZZwVP4pqweiyd8 6GU+2XzbA2AU5Bv8M738l3JfgrDrhz6IHLSI0WkoZJ40JYNK/g3bpS8KvRMgepbT1JxA 7tjNxS5MUpeSpVf0Jz77akpnbilg7dhcURNZ48O7MFphHUTayePI1JyS3ripUna5zsNz J/AY8MyTMwxJ7RYmGrRynwZDHhCa2eHlmRq3E6VweqU9qdz0fdKEKB7JLa1MsDhsjgpS UQlkAO/RELbRtMunGsO2vLHVHTlrOebfpuR9UoZ9DVHnFH9LYGeWr6tpRS+M78pLnq9r Sqnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532k9XqSCE8qmIHtn3YtBRec7QUc2G5mELRhQBh4a5Uxn59FMPaY 9KGVo2kSAGIvNhTuS7X4bOEovaD9E6KX2ILVSea1NuznPQOH6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyhdcxqYn0T8wkm3laddNqz/G7maPfW+RucKrIu7/v67iWg8/6nNrCvcrJN1DwNus3Iz3GjU5rOjuVjdoG9zGk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:18cf:: with SMTP id s15mr5482315ilu.276.1634856916606; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:55:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 15:54:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: support@ietf.org, tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c5f21b05cee4c996" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 22:55:24 -0000 --000000000000c5f21b05cee4c996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ And then on reload it sent me a 500. -Ekr --000000000000c5f21b05cee4c996 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
=

And then= on reload it sent me a 500.

-Ekr


--000000000000c5f21b05cee4c996-- From nobody Thu Oct 21 17:23:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A1C3A0EBD; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qREegtHsRfSA; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 980FC3A0EB4; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id p21so1246276wmq.1; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=qbUsLqSxtFaHEbXCzf/sOIEkF+w2kp/ZKuXtxPAok2I=; b=fH92+7kOfpC2wJBF1S+oeodD/R82FBAxVwPgnxBRxK9cAXPB9e87x05akDxO3crmpF kiIqXlbnSiwp2Q1pPmCwOZ5qb6ovzwmn1g/ngEoYIxmFed6ouDFa28RKc07O/EEXqLsH 8Hnvx9Yn9bwCJOgdFK7hrUkE9hKHoR9FWmAiURP1m/NfDszeb8FOvIOO7Ojow0T9s6qF yCv67fBwy1Sn1LScor/zoMQT5fsJZ8Dao6CtBfTsUo0PVfaTEmjgfz57XxnFMryaCK+e 4PENeC8mrpr2KZVsP3Wggjc1ZkneFHJgs/GuX3fm7iXRDhoBhbyPF8x9phBQSJ9ySCN0 B8Zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=qbUsLqSxtFaHEbXCzf/sOIEkF+w2kp/ZKuXtxPAok2I=; b=zV0bFjQ+p/w8+TDFDTIBewzO46yZPREn+GEVTD8gzaDza8j3DBLkj6NSeab7XsZw7e bfkPKq7ZBkBRQBua516BgbrCv89jDSaDdQjupXniFnMhvSaEOG4cTUaLYpbjGZLWq9jU 23gOnFG9vRVjbYKB81VzM7rEbvIkkrMxo6TZU6+rtWJ5sahqJj/P6FEcRWGmftUD7vES JYsysTGGwvaW4gqzdwrrQh7Ui89kdBiX0Hkk6aC1sxpt9nOhYZbpiZ4eD9y3B70uvhLc uFFZ7JG95vHvMrHueaTU4AtjKtvjREz0B9rksKv+75KEYVXl9TH0prxPKiX2EjK7Mh41 rqsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RFsi7lqmgaP15ptOTKSUevGxuAW9jDX1szux1U+QGpVBRbADK hgmKZtj4PCj9DxVO6KkrvL4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9Up66n/DPALDvyryU1G9WvKcb2P1CHR783/2zbdo23ExerrwJEzT/PJhntneANxusXTIzhA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:a401:: with SMTP id n1mr10309915wme.162.1634862170487; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:659:30be:3959:fec5:c79f? ([2601:647:5a00:659:30be:3959:fec5:c79f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e11sm3029647wrw.16.2021.10.21.17.22.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_79691E81-3472-4E97-8561-5CAFD3752C4F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:22:41 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , support@ietf.org, tools-discuss To: Eric Rescorla References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:22:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_79691E81-3472-4E97-8561-5CAFD3752C4F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ekr, I tried the link and got a response in about a second. If I go to: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ It takes about 5 seconds. Bob > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >=20 > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ >=20 > And then on reload it sent me a 500. >=20 > -Ekr >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --Apple-Mail=_79691E81-3472-4E97-8561-5CAFD3752C4F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAmFyBFEACgkQrut0EXfn u6i0aQf6AlZjZZy3gnGFM8pRNKihJ3hekXPU7r20IB6xSDIpGk/PLKi+eJpKxyDu DtYisqAziYrsjgowoDk0k4EC+Kc0fgaQFn2lyyUL3+CspP03CfUjE4UBu8CuF3tr mBDJzSNn9RfcPC8GLFt/lrSDCIsXkRgy90QLSX6iWwKtT1Kz1+W3vzAZdSWXKggI Gu8C/5UYZK6XIP8Y5zkYK0rc4NI0hV6JetFwr4WBP7sQIcfmSH0s5PnYAbgFtexc iBfrR3UMlgV1mL8JndjQS3rHLBBPxH5sCcc7O3dU0KhHBzC/XYRk0pM5AQv6Ezzs GZNRZ58o+h6GIX1HuwHFIzyGrlWQIQ== =VHAD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_79691E81-3472-4E97-8561-5CAFD3752C4F-- From nobody Thu Oct 21 17:28:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032CB3A0EF9; 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Thu, 21 Oct 2021 17:28:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Richard Barnes Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:28:23 -0400 Message-ID: To: Bob Hinden Cc: Eric Rescorla , support@ietf.org, tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063fce405cee6173c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:28:42 -0000 --00000000000063fce405cee6173c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure. On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: > Ekr, > > I tried the link and got a response in about a second. > > If I go to: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ > > It takes about 5 seconds. > > Bob > > > > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ > > > > And then on reload it sent me a 500. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --00000000000063fce405cee6173c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measure= d in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure.=C2=A0
On Thu, = Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Ekr,

I tried the link and got a response in about a second.

If I go to:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/do= cuments/

It takes about 5 seconds.

Bob


> On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/<= /a>
>
> And then on reload it sent me a 500.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<= br> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--00000000000063fce405cee6173c-- From nobody Thu Oct 21 18:08:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B703A082C for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:08:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kj2gVEsFT84h for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com (mail-io1-xd31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 891603A0821 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id 188so3260138iou.12 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:08:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CuDbWDBjfvzFRh+le4h0gsjLYDTCihtRXSgsditErQw=; b=tR1BCCTA39Tn6Y4FsxaFCc5bKq8yRsHjqgmPIxM/ifKGyCYgGr6AQ5zgWAPM2Jbn6F 0l+2xYQ2gcUZo0VMqqQLGVWwcuzRph/L+mbvkm8sjTPiBnK5jRHGCCcEBmP5SnUMk08i TqjVU6NXgLyaCpuTNtvBnjVPmTsDWi6seenFXg0tpZt+txbasv2DiVhJpGn0dx9L6Keh wA7j+7ZqoBcMseRMfwOZaFliiQcgkQduJEQ4xfJ3TVvmO6d6rbomG390hrP8D/RW641f KRfxGSPI8QYNt+PB4o+2CtoIaotSrknuwsm/CzNeeq2CoSGDn3du4UbYlbWJ8V8s7Tnd O3dw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CuDbWDBjfvzFRh+le4h0gsjLYDTCihtRXSgsditErQw=; b=Yy4XFxS0W02sQFr8p+RRp65nl9dW8X1M1KaDWhfoQvtH0R4UababFKyDFQ2j6XnGW1 o0aQOO0TUUsRpFbyLEBZ+MN388767+DtWTEeLcjBs+iOcI48UqfA2LWaUdHGEOW9SB8g BqmFhlW1iw9i6qGY4XXQI7GNxddTBcjDiZiPn/CfX0Z0frdPAfnJSjePZHlsNbBUKeR4 ZGxAdhDbdOLSAGzNRZNKOaMpEBQCfChVIE5KAtwlMAFgYtqkpNQepdO9Z9PULfa6KeC+ A2ZEIUIoTMyORiydUg3Oqq6LW0OzTVnRYo3FBnGO2wvayGKH3rFCGzxvJgjws6DdODRF ffDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oQcDa300cE5LabSmXrsfreoDPCSVT1iRkUByAhxv7lZgNHX1q ZA490jzV5VKMLRe+++ZyJrVZhwMdbRq0lcVmt86cyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzkrKmgGDR+P4fLzcDoq/SNO8JrQ2ce9z6q0F+3AhsLwQl9A4oNppBRwQmb3NpCN/Uzvn2vxOHwrRIgSH3RvEs= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c886:: with SMTP id y128mr6483258iof.213.1634864907158; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:08:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 18:07:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Richard Barnes Cc: Bob Hinden , support@ietf.org, tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c1d4005cee6a6cb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 01:08:35 -0000 --0000000000000c1d4005cee6a6cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes wrote: > Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measured in units > greater than milliseconds seems like failure. > While I agree with you in principle, it's probably worth distinguishing "working as designed" from "we think this should be designed differently". My understanding is that for design reasons datatracker is not very fast, so 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, let alone 20s or a 500 seems indicative of some kind of failure. -Ekr > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: > >> Ekr, >> >> I tried the link and got a response in about a second. >> >> If I go to: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >> >> It takes about 5 seconds. >> >> Bob >> >> >> > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > >> > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ >> > >> > And then on reload it sent me a 500. >> > >> > -Ekr >> > >> > >> > ___________________________________________________________ >> > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >> datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> > --0000000000000c1d4005cee6a6cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richa= rd Barnes <richard.barnes@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Given how cacheable these resources are, anything = measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure.=C2=A0
=

While I agree with you in principle, it= 9;s probably worth distinguishing "working as designed" from
"we think this should be designed differently". My underst= anding is that for design reasons datatracker
is not very fast, s= o 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, let alone 20s or a 500 s= eems indicative of
some kind of failure.

-Ekr


= On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Ekr,

I tried the link and got a response in about a second.

If I go to:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/do= cuments/

It takes about 5 seconds.

Bob


> On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/<= /a>
>
> And then on reload it sent me a 500.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<= br> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--0000000000000c1d4005cee6a6cb-- From nobody Thu Oct 21 19:32:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824663A097F; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z1mf9qXxpxmu; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.ops-netman.net (relay.ops-netman.net [192.110.255.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D3203A0983; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 19:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.ops-netman.net (mailserver.ops-netman.net [199.168.90.119]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by relay.ops-netman.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29CBF3C21A9; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:31:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailserver.ops-netman.net.ops-netman.net (mailserver.ops-netman.net [199.168.90.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ops-netman.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04A28221; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:31:51 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:31:50 +0000 Message-ID: <874k9923jd.wl-morrowc@ops-netman.net> From: Chris Morrow To: Richard Barnes Cc: Bob Hinden , support@ietf.org, tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Organization: Operations Network Management, Ltd. MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 02:32:00 -0000 On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:28:23 +0000, Richard Barnes wrote: > > [1 ] > [1.1 ] > Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measured in units greater > than milliseconds seems like failure. > it's not clear that there's a cache between you and the service... (or not clear to ME that that is the case). (datatracker isn't served behind CloudFlare, for instance) That point aside, almost certainly it's unhelpful to say: "now things are bad" because: "now" is .. not "now"... It'd be nice if there were some ongoing performance monitoring, perhaps exposed to just the sysadmin-type-folks, and the ietf contract-relevant folks? It'd be nice if that were also exposed publicly, though I get that: "Eww! someone might see my bedroom before I clean it up!!!" At least with some historical data about request/response we might know how/if there are problems to chase. Ideally the whole process of managing the ietf datatracker would include some SLO like: "uptime of http/https service is XXXX" "Page load times of example pages x, y, z are: XX percentile 200ms YY percentile 300ms ZZ percentile 500ms errors only served A in B times on a daily running average" etc, etc, etc. (I'm a chemical engineer not a contracting engineer) -chris (I kicked off some smokeping on my personal thingies to watch datatracker... glenn or robert can send me a "yo, dude, stop" if that's their inclination, I'm just personally curious about normal behavior for this service.) > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: > > > Ekr, > > > > I tried the link and got a response in about a second. > > > > If I go to: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ > > > > It takes about 5 seconds. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ > > > > > > And then on reload it sent me a 500. > > > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > [1.2 ] > [2 ] > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Thu Oct 21 20:15:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87AE93A0AB0 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8YUog5R2Nxod for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfx.ietf.org (ietfx.amsl.com [4.31.198.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B30DE3A0B4B for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1E2492AEB9 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:13:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from ietfx.ietf.org ([4.31.198.45]) by localhost (ietfx.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nG3tqQv80nZH for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.198] (unknown [124.197.12.15]) by ietfx.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30EC24127A50 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <17c34b17-224f-d3c7-7e40-92d056520ba8@staff.ietf.org> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 16:13:13 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:94.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/94.0 To: tools-discuss Content-Language: en-NZ From: Kesara Rathnayake Organization: IETF Administration LLC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Author Tools Update X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:15:28 -0000 Version 0.2.1 of both Author Tools UI and API are released now. Website: https://author-tools.ietf.org/ API documentation: https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc/ Notable additions: * Ability to validate Internet Drafts. This provides idnits output. * Author tools now support both goat and aasvg for kramdown-rfc2629. ID validation accepts XML (both v3 and v2), IDs in plain text and Markdown with kramdown-rfc2629 or mmark. Under the hood, these IDs gets converted to v3 schema and text using xml2rfc. ID validation output consists of warnings and errors generated by xml2rfc and idnits output of the text version. Release notes of Author Tools can be found here: * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at/releases * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui/releases For bugs and feature requests, create a new issue on the GitHub project. --Kesara -- Kesara Rathnayake Senior Software Development Engineer - IETF LLC kesara@staff.ietf.org From nobody Thu Oct 21 20:42:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66093A073D for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0wxzTbKRvDW for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E820F3A06E7 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id x27so811748lfu.5 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:42:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jcFqL5GiOBPUd9DDIwAq8DAZoSN7+KQxZI3rFvo46gk=; b=F3ChdzwscgV31ZoaH0OCPnPgBz2TtqbHfMUI1YUQDFSdTRMs1ZYzL0q7qo4SwC/dyi eq06/Ve9Z3QN4/cJu3lM5EGJIXeOxIuR2T8GXNmR1796Rn1rn6PVJ79JoiV9xVWBs5vS YxbzOHYk14VYlCFsy0C95QvotyUc/QLqwDiXcGWUNt6/sbBrr8bAm/B4Vi+XUzrMVyA+ pZ3iRQ1A9CgztVK69JS3eOIgs7WRe+HmrJwP4wzTAX31jloaRYLh6zXj/v7Cu2f6tyAM dUF866TOsjSBV++D77ET93zbi7wC26NwC3nvr0HPD6CYqPwoBnzjtnmcTRmTQFHtksbG lsmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jcFqL5GiOBPUd9DDIwAq8DAZoSN7+KQxZI3rFvo46gk=; b=ce5kvoMR+7EdtEu9vsrBTGM7r25GpE6/hxhSIsYNgVoLu3UCPKiiKnLNGHmrLzePv+ 11iyb5okQ6VHrvPOfjiTFkklJOIiq3PXWf1zv4tKkETVxmFF4aF0nG72uOaqPYBjL2Qh 4Wqjvd6ZvL4MNyWeqIzjp115I6iBZ/iPp8TNnIsRg7PpcEojOQD6BYcizXevUJ0W93iU OwjBUrFN7jNvRID+DebIzvmPVmbl3XEszqiyytRLTknqPCXxrRS15PE0lj+ipNXP2BBx UCuT9Yl8m05xWhzvv/9UNzRmWijpbsCfED2+BovLm2RT1qVV6kW+yQY7KIcMwv1+/fXz KycQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532C/X45pe/H13mscrEn3dF5cpiOwjGkA+7WW/COedsFOH5BkyQm VzKDm6ic5IKYlREKhHtzvRYQqo4j8l8eQCg0wxM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyTVRQ3wTcG0rgntbg/arRm/WBR9zwZp/qtAlz2h/xwP4V4gSg1tcShp3gKA1UV+c1tx1Z41TlyIHzuyYUq6lE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:c24:: with SMTP id z36mr9057929lfu.62.1634874133427; Thu, 21 Oct 2021 20:42:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17c34b17-224f-d3c7-7e40-92d056520ba8@staff.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <17c34b17-224f-d3c7-7e40-92d056520ba8@staff.ietf.org> From: Tim Wicinski Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 23:42:02 -0400 Message-ID: To: Kesara Rathnayake Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9b95705cee8cbc4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Author Tools Update X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:42:20 -0000 --000000000000f9b95705cee8cbc4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Just wanted to say this looks like an excellent start! Note to those who validate their draft via the API, pipe your output into | jq -r ".idnits" and have nicely printed idnits output. tim On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:16 PM Kesara Rathnayake wrote: > Version 0.2.1 of both Author Tools UI and API are released now. > > Website: https://author-tools.ietf.org/ > API documentation: https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc/ > > Notable additions: > * Ability to validate Internet Drafts. This provides idnits output. > * Author tools now support both goat and aasvg for kramdown-rfc2629. > > ID validation accepts XML (both v3 and v2), IDs in plain text and > Markdown with kramdown-rfc2629 or mmark. > Under the hood, these IDs gets converted to v3 schema and text using > xml2rfc. > ID validation output consists of warnings and errors generated by > xml2rfc and idnits output of the text version. > > Release notes of Author Tools can be found here: > * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at/releases > * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui/releases > > For bugs and feature requests, create a new issue on the GitHub project. > > --Kesara > > -- > Kesara Rathnayake > Senior Software Development Engineer - IETF LLC > kesara@staff.ietf.org > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000f9b95705cee8cbc4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just wanted to say this looks like an excellent start!

Note to those who validate t= heir draft via the API, pipe your output into=C2=A0 | jq -r ".idnits&q= uot;
and = have nicely printed idnits output.=C2=A0

tim


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 11:16 PM Kesara Ra= thnayake <kesara@staff.ietf.org= > wrote:
= Version 0.2.1 of both Author Tools UI and API are released now.

Website: https://author-tools.ietf.org/
API documentation: https://author-tools.ietf.org/doc/

Notable additions:
=C2=A0 * Ability to validate Internet Drafts. This provides idnits output.<= br> =C2=A0 * Author tools now support both goat and aasvg for kramdown-rfc2629.=

ID validation accepts XML (both v3 and v2), IDs in plain text and
Markdown with kramdown-rfc2629 or mmark.
Under the hood, these IDs gets converted to v3 schema and text using
xml2rfc.
ID validation output consists of warnings and errors generated by
xml2rfc and idnits output of the text version.

Release notes of Author Tools can be found here:
=C2=A0 * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at/release= s
=C2=A0 * https://github.com/ietf-tools/ietf-at-ui/= releases

For bugs and feature requests, create a new issue on the GitHub project.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0--Kesara

--
Kesara Rathnayake
Senior Software Development Engineer - IETF LLC
kesara@staff.iet= f.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000f9b95705cee8cbc4-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 09:56:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39C73A11ED for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4OmC6r6H-s3t for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3A143A11FC for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19MGtMMi055094 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 11:55:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634921722; bh=4yjpK3rGe3iub6LyldJwC8nIZUNq8wz0DIvbwWEwW68=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=VSICBRB62fV3ElGapEIyMcLMt5HVtL4SegZtpsSOXTvTG4Ws9wD+LoJig8E4MK6vp WXRZHygU/hcGIzyq6tgY4qSSucLPjkUa9OYsdIGIXTv2RFHqF9HdwB9GQiOtut47bl /+gK3ftCMwuTIlrZV4QeBy+vSeeDURTcTFLSDPKI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------RIx0cGMuLnwM5SA0zpGRM268" Message-ID: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 11:55:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 16:55:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------RIx0cGMuLnwM5SA0zpGRM268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with EKR here. Fwiw, we have a spring focusing on performance coming up next week (you've seen the announcements here). My instinct, however, for _this_ particular instance is that there was something else going on that made things bad enough to get to a 500. We're working towards getting better visibility into what those something elses might be. A response to Richard inline: RjS On 10/21/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes > wrote: > > Given how cacheable these resources are > Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler. > , anything measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like > failure. > > > While I agree with you in principle, it's probably worth > distinguishing "working as designed" from > "we think this should be designed differently". My understanding is > that for design reasons datatracker > is not very fast, so 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, > let alone 20s or a 500 seems indicative of > some kind of failure. > > -Ekr > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: > > Ekr, > > I tried the link and got a response in about a second. > > If I go to: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ > > It takes about 5 seconds. > > Bob > > > > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ > > > > And then on reload it sent me a 500. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug > reports. > > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug > reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: > datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: > webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------RIx0cGMuLnwM5SA0zpGRM268 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I agree with EKR here.

Fwiw, we have a spring focusing on performance coming up next week (you've seen the announcements here).

My instinct, however, for _this_ particular instance is that there was something else going on that made things bad enough to get to a 500. We're working towards getting better visibility into what those something elses might be.

A response to Richard inline:

RjS

On 10/21/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Given how cacheable these resources are

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.


, anything measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure. 

While I agree with you in principle, it's probably worth distinguishing "working as designed" from
"we think this should be designed differently". My understanding is that for design reasons datatracker
is not very fast, so 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, let alone 20s or a 500 seems indicative of
some kind of failure.

-Ekr


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Ekr,

I tried the link and got a response in about a second.

If I go to:

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/

It takes about 5 seconds.

Bob


> On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/
>
> And then on reload it sent me a 500.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

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--------------RIx0cGMuLnwM5SA0zpGRM268-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 10:03:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846B43A115F for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XAl4HF_vNOdd for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E35D3A115D for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 10:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19MH3C3I056563 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 12:03:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634922192; bh=lnG7OEmodT69vi1TnOWddVjc5Wqhpf8jWsw9fJUDMxE=; h=Date:To:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=ls5sUIcUxPVI7nWItyCcK+Cvpx7ujGpj286TmXO0dZYivV7GG9UuogoUlADW4CRgJ 2IjRRPGIjqLIOgIVxptN1i0QRAKwqroMqQR1plACpdW7y6nk1wrIQxKyglv+IWpr7u fRyQXi1nu0EVoUpw/054E+uu7OeWbVTzupixIAnI= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------KMYz0m77riUFsDh6LqNb87i9" Message-ID: <3a06d077-2d59-6b3a-e6c4-621f473395c6@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 12:03:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <874k9923jd.wl-morrowc@ops-netman.net> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: <874k9923jd.wl-morrowc@ops-netman.net> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 17:03:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------KMYz0m77riUFsDh6LqNb87i9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/21/21 9:31 PM, Chris Morrow wrote: > On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:28:23 +0000, > Richard Barnes wrote: >> [1 ] >> [1.1 ] >> Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measured in units greater >> than milliseconds seems like failure. >> > it's not clear that there's a cache between you and the service... Only in your browser > (or > not clear to ME that that is the case). (datatracker isn't served > behind CloudFlare, for instance) Using Cloudflare for the datatracker is planned. > > That point aside, almost certainly it's unhelpful to say: "now things > are bad" because: "now" is .. not "now"... It'd be nice if there were > some ongoing performance monitoring, perhaps exposed to just the > sysadmin-type-folks, and the ietf contract-relevant folks? Yes it would. We are building it. This is not a permanent view (and we are talking about how to make it more useful) but: https://scoutapm.com/shares/427d60eb-abcb-4d2b-9d2c-89abab1e72a5 I also have a significant amount of data collected using newrelic synthetics, but there isn't an easy way to expose that publicly that I've found. > > It'd be nice if that were also exposed publicly, though I get that: > "Eww! someone might see my bedroom before I clean it up!!!" > > At least with some historical data about request/response we might > know how/if there are problems to chase. Ideally the whole process > of managing the ietf datatracker would include some SLO like: > "uptime of http/https service is XXXX" > "Page load times of example pages x, y, z are: > XX percentile 200ms > YY percentile 300ms > ZZ percentile 500ms > errors only served A in B times on a daily running average" > etc, etc, etc. (I'm a chemical engineer not a contracting engineer) > > -chris > (I kicked off some smokeping on my personal thingies to watch datatracker... > glenn or robert can send me a "yo, dude, stop" if that's their inclination, > I'm just personally curious about normal behavior for this service.) Let me know offline what your frequency and what pages you are watching please. > >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: >> >>> Ekr, >>> >>> I tried the link and got a response in about a second. >>> >>> If I go to: >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >>> >>> It takes about 5 seconds. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>>> On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>> I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ >>>> >>>> And then on reload it sent me a 500. >>>> >>>> -Ekr >>>> >>>> >>>> ___________________________________________________________ >>>> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >>> datatracker-project@ietf.org >>>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>>> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >>>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >> [1.2 ] >> [2 ] >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list -Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to:webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to:ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe):https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --------------KMYz0m77riUFsDh6LqNb87i9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 10/21/21 9:31 PM, Chris Morrow wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 00:28:23 +0000,
Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

[1  <multipart/alternative (7bit)>]
[1.1  <text/plain; UTF-8 (7bit)>]
Given how cacheable these resources are, anything measured in units greater
than milliseconds seems like failure.


it's not clear that there's a cache between you and the service...
Only in your browser
 (or
not clear to ME that that is the case). (datatracker isn't served
behind CloudFlare, for instance)
Using Cloudflare for the datatracker is planned.

That point aside, almost certainly it's unhelpful to say: "now things
are bad" because: "now" is .. not "now"... It'd be nice if there were
some ongoing performance monitoring, perhaps exposed to just the
sysadmin-type-folks, and the ietf contract-relevant folks?

Yes it would. We are building it.

This is not a permanent view (and we are talking about how to make it more useful) but:

https://scoutapm.com/shares/427d60eb-abcb-4d2b-9d2c-89abab1e72a5

I also have a significant amount of data collected using newrelic synthetics, but there isn't an easy way to expose that publicly that I've found.




It'd be nice if that were also exposed publicly, though I get that:
  "Eww! someone might see my bedroom before I clean it up!!!"

At least with some historical data about request/response we might
know how/if there are problems to chase. Ideally the whole process
of managing the ietf datatracker would include some SLO like:
  "uptime of http/https service is XXXX"
  "Page load times of example pages x, y, z are:
     XX percentile 200ms
     YY percentile 300ms
     ZZ percentile 500ms
   errors only served A in B times on a daily running average"
  etc, etc, etc. (I'm a chemical engineer not a contracting engineer)

-chris
(I kicked off some smokeping on my personal thingies to watch datatracker...
glenn or robert can send me a "yo, dude, stop" if that's their inclination,
I'm just personally curious about normal behavior for this service.)
Let me know offline what your frequency and what pages you are watching please.


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:


Ekr,

I tried the link and got a response in about a second.

If I go to:

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/

It takes about 5 seconds.

Bob



On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/

And then on reload it sent me a 500.

-Ekr


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* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to:

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[1.2  <text/html; UTF-8 (quoted-printable)>]
[2  <text/plain; us-ascii (7bit)>]
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We're > working towards getting better visibility into what those something elses > might be. > That's what I assumed as well, which is why I reported it. A response to Richard inline: > > RjS > On 10/21/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes > wrote: > >> Given how cacheable these resources are >> > Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ > of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, > unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will > see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a > document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it > will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and > make invalidation simpler. > Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high. -Ekr > , anything measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure. >> > > While I agree with you in principle, it's probably worth distinguishing > "working as designed" from > "we think this should be designed differently". My understanding is that > for design reasons datatracker > is not very fast, so 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, let > alone 20s or a 500 seems indicative of > some kind of failure. > > -Ekr > > >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden wrote: >> >>> Ekr, >>> >>> I tried the link and got a response in about a second. >>> >>> If I go to: >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >>> >>> It takes about 5 seconds. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> > On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>> > >>> > I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server: >>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/priv/documents/ >>> > >>> > And then on reload it sent me a 500. >>> > >>> > -Ekr >>> > >>> > >>> > ___________________________________________________________ >>> > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >>> datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: >>> datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000d4cbcb05cefa9edb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 9:56 AM Rober= t Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

I agree with EKR here.

Fwiw, we have a spring focusing on performance coming up next week (you've seen the announcements here).

My instinct, however, for _this_ particular instance is that there was something else going on that made things bad enough to get to a 500. We're working towards getting better visibility int= o what those something elses might be.


<= /div>
That's what I assumed as well, which is why I reported it.

A response to Richard inline:

RjS

On 10/21/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
=20

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why th= is data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appea= r quickly, the change rate is not high.

-Ekr

<= p>


, anything measured in units greater than milliseconds seems like failure.=C2=A0

While I agree with you in principle, it's probably worth distinguishing "working as designed" from
"we think this should be designed differently". M= y understanding is that for design reasons datatracker
is not very fast, so 1s, white undesirable, is expected. However, 5s, let alone 20s or a 500 seems indicative of
some kind of failure.

-Ekr


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 20:23 Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote:
Ekr,

I tried the link and got a response in about a second.
If I go to:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.i= etf.org/wg/6man/documents/

It takes about 5 seconds.

Bob


> On Oct 21, 2021, at 3:54 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> I just watched datatracker take ~20s to server:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/w= g/priv/documents/
>
> And then on reload it sent me a 500.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> _________________________________________________________= __
> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-pro= ject@ietf.org
> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

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--000000000000d4cbcb05cefa9edb-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 18:05:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D303A0AFA for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BGRpmNvjrQdL for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com (mail-lf1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAC4C3A0ABD for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id g36so2040790lfv.3 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=30O8s/RmkjU6jTJEkJKDUhuHLBvMvHUtQf82eDi0i68=; b=LpOn6wQ7cg50j0H7VJ2ipnlv56IwIUHcnvo311MQS7yDUMXh0OQwDvoXjw8a72zGCE zLBS64Hjp6pppi8MhwG/644OtW2gisoI3rChH+D9nhHxuPyjXxlcNNUCBmSozfQvJFi4 5xg0syV/FNiFYWnOZHWlGeag0jEpjNblPkOtg3vle9uFfeOcsNgBNVtTvqlA1v5QhsoN EnVkvOBAqVhU9FvBK06Tq0EJzSHMWpjkU9PO9ptdDYFRTtueo2HCN7Hl2TnXbhfXXytD 3FS+iUlwFwydXk6A2hfc7/FQlJOCaqTbtAz2pqFe0T4ESpUdbDDAsLT32O0jjmC90DHL CQJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=30O8s/RmkjU6jTJEkJKDUhuHLBvMvHUtQf82eDi0i68=; b=j2dfqCLgDM8+We2o2547etsG1uSaZAMq4ho5unYfWO7Y0VeAgR1Ta9Kzyqp0qyZ4CS yvvs2DgnRCkyEroeiZSSRhF+Xvd+gHd6pTT3bjt5Y9wIdkCFzkE3qLdbd/WmxQhGfYT7 XjmAbuY3Yxexzn2hglB1KRM/43ZcbZZVi/1UbGiKgpStYXrlKmjZjVjAx/zG24tB/sy4 T4CG5PhXvCVKD/txxHF1Ilqx9xihOq2cVHXTx2flwXK7H3em2y11LgbYH5wiwpW+FsHk ZveXUanp29cFTm7vQEfBBO0TxsH7DLk+2C7/ah+nYHMTquVnGMMKizQbXt8CstCq/Jfp a+GA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533HGsrg25EALl0vX77qpUAm79nn+ehbVnjtYwMjg2X7n/J2A3s0 ZrQSZ10mXjbgWyWqgYWtJqmSiiQjj+spymI4GecEPVFC X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbt5Rk/V9rzWaTq17/9WkPGlFdc59a1FspyNfZ6o7+a12X86mXl57nwbRYcLy56emJo8Lf72kJ0IDZN7O8SCA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:39c5:: with SMTP id k5mr2800545lfu.230.1634951123535; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:05:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tim Wicinski Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 21:05:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f18b3105cefab88a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 01:05:37 -0000 --000000000000f18b3105cefab88a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes >> wrote: >> >>> Given how cacheable these resources are >>> >> Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ >> of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, >> unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will >> see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a >> document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it >> will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and >> make invalidation simpler. >> > Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true > that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high. > > I was thinking that for some period around meeting time there is much more activity and perhaps it could not be cached. But there is a period between meetings where the cache could be refreshed nightly, or at some whim of a WGChair/AD/etc. tim > --000000000000f18b3105cefab88a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla= <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:2= 8 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Given how cacheable these resources are

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why th= is data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appea= r quickly, the change rate is not high.


I was thinking that for some period around meeting time ther= e is much more activity and perhaps it could not be cached.
But there is a period be= tween meetings where the cache could be refreshed nightly, or at some whim = of a WGChair/AD/etc.

tim


--000000000000f18b3105cefab88a-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 18:08:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9143A0B92 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WILoCCOZ_NdG for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BABE3A0B0A for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id o184so7564985iof.6 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wCUce/hyNbIosSwKOop9m2XbOndwyW3apqQD2m+XvqE=; b=FR710N11ldZbD+cOmAu0w2vkvDG0Wp84g9YiUfqe64cBHxRHwVpEIN9OMWJGFn8Q+i upLR068qxQYZoDHPqIMInrnsMzWlNcAi7h4jVJgF2O+PvtPLR9qekSuOnSKuNXG+bPCC QhlOqr05UtA/Y4z76+JLqkA7IdZcKBJ/B2qTqUBSg1LNlvtUUmftwTO4X2279B/rTc2m jIk4g+WcOBAEKHH+PwW8HWr93yV6X/wMzJHg7CXqlEU32Lb4uF8MzmMulj+msMNPvYCV DCt3brvbcGlsB7/LRAIUM3+lFK0DhM+HRlmmXyc+u3VJwg7Y5cQZrOINprSMumMuv+Pe gqwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wCUce/hyNbIosSwKOop9m2XbOndwyW3apqQD2m+XvqE=; b=NkCbteaLhpiReckspEcCRA+aSFc/hTtdHGLg2IhWbyWS71HQ+sSj5nVMXShgUpKKm0 vLqAUzdN04Sw+R03CMdkDjeQtjej1YgAOOciGi19YipG9CvGfXwQN2YnSgbYRRzN11ep FXbWerxzSpCrHuFkJs70TNuwvGhecrgvfID12ne7KPVsyTzHoiheHKRTcwDMmvHN6pIL VFrhJvfGbUsGaotVrRcTqr3cVkQqGu4c11jib589Hz2c5I/MWZ0gEhqRoQ30/FmAdFN6 ncsHjK8ijN0D7LGDFI8kG8EGvqu0Ye+fJ++RTMielS/iZGH6U3m+AIBMlWOvBCBa+vxi vHvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330byIQzQZ7qzXEJe6LYeRRurXza6E6hrVsYBJVJEX2Wc+3QlE5 4QHjUpMlQn3M0Q4+r+HO3urt7DURuj4g2jmvsqqzwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQevVQya2ArftHmuhY/7V03ncrobqYVAKDTUlzYbrakBFjd3ivUuvY1AgKOA4nREZIqtLo56r1m5jghsU86jQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5e:8f01:: with SMTP id c1mr1853995iok.148.1634951257686; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 18:07:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tim Wicinski Cc: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f0981605cefac0c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 01:07:57 -0000 --000000000000f0981605cefac0c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tim Wicinski wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Given how cacheable these resources are >>>> >>> Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ >>> of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, >>> unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will >>> see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a >>> document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it >>> will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and >>> make invalidation simpler. >>> >> Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true >> that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high. >> >> > I was thinking that for some period around meeting time there is much more > activity and perhaps it could not be cached. > But there is a period between meetings where the cache could be refreshed > nightly, or at some whim of a WGChair/AD/etc. > As I understand it, at least some CDNs have cache invalidation mechanisms so that servers can tell them that caches are invalid. Maybe mnot or caw can weigh in here? -Ekr > tim > > >> --000000000000f0981605cefac0c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tim W= icinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

<= /div>
O= n Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:2= 8 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Given how cacheable these resources are

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why th= is data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appea= r quickly, the change rate is not high.


I was thi= nking that for some period around meeting time there is much more activity = and perhaps it could not be cached.
But there is a period between meetings where the cache could be refreshe= d nightly, or at some whim of a WGChair/AD/etc.

As I understand it, at least some CDNs have cache in= validation mechanisms so that servers can tell them that caches are invalid= .

Maybe mnot or caw can weigh in here?
<= br>
-Ekr


tim


--000000000000f0981605cefac0c7-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 20:20:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD0D3A0881 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:20:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 69rtQQODdzBQ for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8428D3A086C for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19N3KOUH080676 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 22:20:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634959225; bh=SNcrHzweOdnA/5XHuoFMTwJ3jrGO+PM7qw+5M68KBdw=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=tPsObk5T0xE23J+4z4zVjJbuEBVvztTLbagAei370L5ve1hKiO+5A6jgh57e0UiVx nZD0cyhZQxPTz6Nnuh1kfCrViGv3sX16QEm7L0ErFw89o1JO3cfzZohizwFNa4oDq9 HZUb8rEOcTLVjAmtnYuWNBpYeJgdUc5nqZAehzYo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Vc30qrVnRxc01zsTmLaR6z1W" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 22:20:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla , Tim Wicinski Cc: tools-discuss References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 03:20:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Vc30qrVnRxc01zsTmLaR6z1W Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/22/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tim Wicinski wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes >> wrote: >> >> Given how cacheable these resources are >> > Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but > there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was > looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the > expectations in the community on how quickly they will see > a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new > version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to > refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the > pieces rather than the assembled result, and make > invalidation simpler. > > Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While > it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change > rate is not high. > > > I was thinking that for some period around meeting time there is > much more activity and perhaps it could not be cached. > But there is a period between meetings where the cache could be > refreshed nightly, or at some whim of a WGChair/AD/etc. > > > As I understand it, at least some CDNs have cache invalidation > mechanisms so that servers can tell them that caches are invalid. Cloudflare does, at least, and we will take advantage of it when the datatracker is behind it, but at the moment there are pages, like all the variants of the search result pages (which may have arbitrary drafts), which would require a nigh impossible computation to figure out what to invalidate. Some subset of those (like the wg document pages) are more tractible, and when we get that far we can take advantage of that. > > Maybe mnot or caw can weigh in here? > > -Ekr > > > tim > > --------------Vc30qrVnRxc01zsTmLaR6z1W Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 10/22/21 8:07 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 6:05 PM Tim Wicinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:58 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:


On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 5:28 PM Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
Given how cacheable these resources are

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high.


I was thinking that for some period around meeting time there is much more activity and perhaps it could not be cached.
But there is a period between meetings where the cache could be refreshed nightly, or at some whim of a WGChair/AD/etc.

As I understand it, at least some CDNs have cache invalidation mechanisms so that servers can tell them that caches are invalid.
Cloudflare does, at least, and we will take advantage of it when the datatracker is behind it, but at the moment there are pages, like all the variants of the search result pages (which may have arbitrary drafts), which would require a nigh impossible computation to figure out what to invalidate. Some subset of those (like the wg document pages) are more tractible, and when we get that far we can take advantage of that.

Maybe mnot or caw can weigh in here?

-Ekr


tim


--------------Vc30qrVnRxc01zsTmLaR6z1W-- From nobody Fri Oct 22 20:55:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462B43A0912 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jG1sk8wVZvsW for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5703A07AA for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19N3tTdR087622 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Oct 2021 22:55:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1634961330; bh=m9p6nVXF6Dtp1BPcGLcyTqM5V4LLoMOUOxh4S7W/C84=; h=Date:To:Cc:References:From:Subject:In-Reply-To; b=AcRTQVTfF7i//rvhp5Q2fjIzwgXRrky0OWvSoYxAH2I63BU+2Un7oZUXjwaNs9qRq Sr/7xDQuqGDFSjg7E1mJol4XmJ1h3eI0KIMxQlsU7nkWKC/teiizFfd7PSzyBAN+pN 5zB/MDoGfRpmscewtt5NCNaixYkD5lBD2nc0FDVs= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------yhgxgxX9xOW0RhcsQV3fwzv0" Message-ID: <206ce50b-fd2a-0347-d1c0-48733059bed6@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 22:55:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: tools-discuss References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 03:55:45 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------yhgxgxX9xOW0RhcsQV3fwzv0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a > _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not > cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on > how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a > position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I > plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the > pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation > simpler. > > Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true > that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high. > > -Ekr > Be precise about "this data". Something like an AD's particular position on a given document would be nice to cache beyond the server, but we don't serve an individual ADs position right now. We serve pages that combine that with a _very_ large amount of other bits of data that have been assembled into a blob. The things that are involved in changing one of the bits of data are not aware of the full set of assembled blobs that might contain that data. We can (and will) evolve to where we are serving those small bits of data relatively independently and letting the browsers assemble what we serve now as a blob, but we've for quite a while been held to a requirement for things to work for people who didn't allow javascript to run in their browser. Requiring javascript is becoming more tolerated, so we can change the way the services are constructed to take advantage of that. Even without that ability, of course, there are things we may be able to decompose, but at the moment, the cacheable unit for, say, https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/tls/documents/, is the whole page. The effect of the rate of change of the individual pieces adds up on these blocks of aggregated data, and the desire to have changes appear quickly overtakes how long you can let such a block live. RjS --------------yhgxgxX9xOW0RhcsQV3fwzv0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context

On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high.

-Ekr


Be precise about "this data".

Something like an AD's particular position on a given document would be nice to cache beyond the server, but we don't serve an individual ADs position right now. We serve pages that combine that with a _very_ large amount of other bits of data that have been assembled into a blob. The things that are involved in changing one of the bits of data are not aware of the full set of assembled blobs that might contain that data.

We can (and will) evolve to where we are serving those small bits of data relatively independently and letting the browsers assemble what we serve now as a blob, but we've for quite a while been held to a requirement for things to work for people who didn't allow javascript to run in their browser. Requiring javascript is becoming more tolerated, so we can change the way the services are constructed to take advantage of that. Even without that ability, of course, there are things we may be able to decompose, but at the moment, the cacheable unit for, say, https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/tls/documents/, is the whole page.

The effect of the rate of change of the individual pieces adds up on these blocks of aggregated data, and the desire to have changes appear quickly overtakes how long you can let such a block live.

RjS

--------------yhgxgxX9xOW0RhcsQV3fwzv0-- From nobody Sat Oct 23 19:42:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83753A0EC0 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id waT40R_WkjNY for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 890F03A07D7 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id o184so10750389iof.6 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:42:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lAE+sqtvixj4e0Dh336SjR1yC2fZIK6JH7liEw/VuTE=; b=J7yoSkbsQ2DQv/qjgASGOBJD3VC1qaHe81l1nIu6WwlOYmP52ZhM77SkVNqobscz/O VQsffTvKeO9y70onjUd+Z0Zw6liFUi031RxZ2s1Fok+B0aLbKWRsLPCDUeYJHBEQmvrL 6vLM1GH3A4zL/dN0CwxAR1JIWFRNFitYkpvSU+1d5E2oeDvwJDetfxY5jDAPdEmU7FKA iwqi0CbJyOkDo/DNuRnmpxrso/KcwUczaeQlUut9i+tq3tAWcXE5enZ+6s83MKxxFciP IshwEPLIEaFrgoJcCAlZ0T+vu35/zx31oqNbYHjUKoQppf0o+bquGywTJiSq5jc/w0mt Lp7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lAE+sqtvixj4e0Dh336SjR1yC2fZIK6JH7liEw/VuTE=; b=YJu/EdfDUAlwfkmeXixtqFK1F9NFMuG9AzxHdrj6iHWzWdhyFfJztSdJFpEUacfx8t 78WNj5CTqsLSzimxZ5/nlo49TrNQhBTeMad59sdn5aDTJzL1J9DDVB4Y8WBBMhFDXtpW YmF2SDLCM9rYiAoltgXeFv/5KFVXiT24pzc4PIdvWaKXZfFTN8wp6ShOgw8MG1/d0VfV I/QkTu/S8f1LTBHy/4mT4eFyRa3aKb7kz8aYhGiO2dVH4MWFE8zQzl3WYtDXj15nW8A4 ujnfwHubCp1ATt67yKH6X1ZpHsoDS+zSQqx3zxqrLeJZFmDeSertBQfCUfpSJLKGYNmJ x1mg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531fXQQcMF8MzazmskuWBlCDg0pn6oFyHO93f4V3qykxkE9sYoGB UtiTEVAT++NAV37SqW6yS7RgZJDSxosIaeW+hIKilw1r X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJpep2wBxLGovJ/UlLMZBSlHO2furp7E72d14SkmBc/ahRzPuurRpNdRJWo0HDR4R4B+4sb960EUF+4pSKPYU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c886:: with SMTP id y128mr5728299iof.213.1635043343927; Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:42:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> <206ce50b-fd2a-0347-d1c0-48733059bed6@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <206ce50b-fd2a-0347-d1c0-48733059bed6@nostrum.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:41:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Sparks Cc: tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b520d905cf103147" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 02:42:31 -0000 --000000000000b520d905cf103147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:55 PM Robert Sparks wrote: > Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context > On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ >> of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, >> unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will >> see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a >> document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it >> will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and >> make invalidation simpler. >> > Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true > that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high. > > -Ekr > > > Be precise about "this data". > Well in this case it was a WG page, but another example is drafts. These change quite infrequently and so should be quite cacheable. -Ekr > We can (and will) evolve to where we are serving those small bits of data > relatively independently and letting the browsers assemble what we serve > now as a blob, but we've for quite a while been held to a requirement for > things to work for people who didn't allow javascript to run in their > browser. Requiring javascript is becoming more tolerated, so we can change > the way the services are constructed to take advantage of that. Even > without that ability, of course, there are things we may be able to > decompose, but at the moment, the cacheable unit for, say, > https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/tls/documents/, is the whole page. > OK, but how often does this change? In any case the "no client JS" seems like something we should revisit. If this were a single page app with a JSON API, the situation would be far more flexible (and it would also make third party apps much easier) -Ekr --000000000000b520d905cf103147 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:55 PM Rober= t Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context

On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
=20

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high.

-Ekr


Be precise about "this data".

<= div>


OK, but how often does this change?<= /div>

In any case the "no client JS" seems lik= e something we should revisit. If this were a single page app with a JSON A= PI, the situation would be far more flexible (and it would also make third = party apps much easier)

-Ekr

--000000000000b520d905cf103147-- From nobody Sun Oct 24 04:54:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B37A3A0D3F for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 04:54:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1kDXz-QKcx44 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 04:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F8653A0C5E for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 04:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id h20so2724259ila.4 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 04:54:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZrRleRlnM9HtYNEmji9dgTgBGMBCqND25a8jS4EMq0k=; b=mg4GUAO+Llq85VC/M58bMtvgxLsoeUNV/YZwSv63BFWBxBoRs1MnK6dIm0AUQLEtwK kk5ysCq+QJvJklKJT3E4sdBIwFHm/3sVuW3TbW99Sr212qvnSXpOaKdvHaWg/M4K9B7m uSfWbylVFjsyGS7QF4UErJHDjY5UdGJUdBNX0ZnXbhLdYqvGMQlDZSyCNRp0gBAeCcrH dZ6y1z8d804EU5mD7sDE/v535t6ML79lee9M+EFbQfqG40al0IuHKMPpTFAxb9yj4or/ FcGsGrYdTk2hYJiuvVulYfiDuqHdu8rkhyy1QBqUyjjEVqQROiGTXbG7g7w+HZVgiQ8C JY8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ZrRleRlnM9HtYNEmji9dgTgBGMBCqND25a8jS4EMq0k=; b=ywmC2TtCWiDJj1d1dLiEd82jnQYMwIe3Xdm5Fqcle3SPYv0PaupR9QksIPwi7lpwhF JiDuh34U6pHQJ+p5W8cw/ZtSJxY9iR+OvRHIolaNpOc53dD58U0oMmW9ulOglIK2yI/V jRlsTfhah2t4OYGsVmniUqijOqshTZ2QZA99AtefXFN2LGSTPykizrUA+JJHhK3iPwLX 2iO6t6i90dWRusC+DO+MJLBLerz7BpUO6tGo79pcUeXosvggwFi0YTjNV1hmX2ajLLw4 P+UFqbvxLEp9HeMff2fVZY7RbEFM5qopSRBjlUQT9OC2fquhuPsWIgmUZoS5gNny0Zj6 cLAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533GcQAbejJhEhzCqf9wcVjoMSljYFc4SkhBQzVAoDyMxcaGaHpq tHwxr5aEuSxM5BcXC0swd9uviqorlirn9u8YprEMpuIYe/BKSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpRCgIwARuW/7cVXqkdJU8xu/wLs8FXsFN6MoAUJ1+kQs4S8ADoFD1jFFaTpCeEiyZlVGRP1TX3IVPeU9x7jo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1a67:: with SMTP id w7mr2900556ilv.240.1635076455307; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 04:54:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 17:23:39 +0530 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004c9eac05cf17e787" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker is down! X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 11:54:21 -0000 --0000000000004c9eac05cf17e787 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It is working now! Back to the scheduled programming :) On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 2:58 PM Dhruv Dhody wrote: > Hi, > > I am not able to access the https://datatracker.ietf.org/ for some time > now (9:20 AM UTC 24 Oct 2021). > > https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/datatracker.ietf.org.html confirmed it > is down! > > I guess It is my fault to leave updating some drafts till the last weekend > before the deadline, on the other hand now I am forced to enjoy my Sunday :) > > Dhruv > --0000000000004c9eac05cf17e787 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is working now! Back to the scheduled programming :)

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 2:58 PM Dhruv Dhody <dhruv.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,=C2=A0

I am not= able to access the=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/ for some time now (9:20 AM UT= C 24 Oct 2021).=C2=A0
<= br>
https= ://www.isitdownrightnow.com/datatracker.ietf.org.html confirmed it is d= own!=C2=A0

I guess It is my fault to = leave updating some drafts till the last weekend before the deadline, on th= e other hand now I am forced to enjoy my Sunday :)

Dhruv
--0000000000004c9eac05cf17e787-- From nobody Sun Oct 24 05:26:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233EB3A077F for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 05:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKTBL8mKohTf for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD33A3A0773 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id q6so7754988iod.7 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=m83Nt4GaDAiMIjLio+bWvqSW3iDadJgihCBUp/Zd2Io=; b=EA+rPLgzWzStrVTRiB368Sk4Rbke/DUjq35yqaFFCm+CUc2usPxVBRIUm3XWEM0wex ws5geCZAB9x64vvW/y/qkF5QrWW4E0W/z0DJTaPA6aUfeOK0JJpzv8doz7mbJihDbo8g 08YkzuOiYQK8B6Kdulh2Z1XOod8MAYEcSo80+Vp9viTGjQVVDccH4eOOtJF7bM9Zpaew IyeqySRtcj42yXUS3FAPw7FduNzRoYmxhBeCylhfw325n9Na34ilrN4ZxE12ZrDBQQA3 GZGo+yN+1OJH4y4IW2EXUeoZHPZdjLyPB4CK0FqBWHxuxCQVHGYW23vbjnoEIEByv1zL zTlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=m83Nt4GaDAiMIjLio+bWvqSW3iDadJgihCBUp/Zd2Io=; b=sebprkistraNn763OxfdOvTXyA9zsa+3vnmroxpbaj6AGNn7SVHkWgpU24iI79eHZU X8j/aW42s0bbXMeIIWUhGtvcv7nK4OcAqgTdHnBNw8ir0fhJ1sjJyRakp56NTj7iCd0p mFIqVvGdI9lO5H06QWTb9/gb/At6rc0fsbS4AMGhy+5IZcKMf5Ut8/RMz7nQV3Hh2Q1j V+RS7Uv4Uid1VJT9a5wxYmWw09OCj10SxW+AJJnzvFtL8WEz1dpx9P08G714iG4Ujgfg D2uk6f39Cx5OV/+ybKalL4iQlGwe653QrqIJ1jKmTOwqX/m4AMoZmXFBcS3Ao1MXL8Gc RdIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532geED4c1zH4eK08T1MsLfxk0c971ApWRrMOwSm04KhzMs7MRE5 M4YtMJDZ/iAggWPOx4EiFhz4eP/WeykzGexH9a+6m5L1JJVXRA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbQDL9QFdQ2yMvtXODJ6ygau3+bsVNxHkZjG+50oP87r6ekBOnwKUwCODBNHCcmsBotKtoNqCA5hnx1VS8ujc= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8d08:: with SMTP id p8mr6372897ioj.169.1635067729480; Sun, 24 Oct 2021 02:28:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 14:58:13 +0530 Message-ID: To: Tools Team Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000330eb605cf15df4e" Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker is down! X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2021 12:26:29 -0000 --000000000000330eb605cf15df4e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, I am not able to access the https://datatracker.ietf.org/ for some time now (9:20 AM UTC 24 Oct 2021). https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/datatracker.ietf.org.html confirmed it is down! I guess It is my fault to leave updating some drafts till the last weekend before the deadline, on the other hand now I am forced to enjoy my Sunday :) Dhruv --000000000000330eb605cf15df4e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

I am not able to a= ccess the=C2=A0https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/ for some time now (9:20 AM UTC 24 Oct 2021).=C2=A0

https://www= .isitdownrightnow.com/datatracker.ietf.org.html confirmed it is down!= =C2=A0

I guess It is my fault to leave updating some drafts till the la= st weekend before the deadline, on the other hand now I am forced to enjoy = my Sunday :)

Dhruv
--000000000000330eb605cf15df4e-- From nobody Mon Oct 25 07:26:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4C13A0967 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 07:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.408 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.33, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id np_7M6_fr7JV for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 07:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A36C3A0906 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 2021 07:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19PEPvKH087466 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Oct 2021 09:25:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1635171958; bh=b6X9zBbsIQZRFxzQLbOErXSDtmkzJwx8GC0MWfhmjl0=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=qCrzIs3M1j6/wmQP/+QvumJiFJW2EVEUqDVslprq/Lt0nyxFLnuXs7DnD4XORHu7/ gC/RBjjDzeHKXUK2jeM9JnfOgPW38SEOQPOT/PWoQBUqYKkReDKh8bYltmtgFb05mA jg45EJt4GlSEzTVkdC8zRi8waW2i9um1wtQAI8G8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------d00h3OBCy5b4G6CfXP2A3OhH" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 09:25:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US To: Eric Rescorla Cc: tools-discuss References: <143557f7-5462-38af-a71c-23624898e41a@nostrum.com> <206ce50b-fd2a-0347-d1c0-48733059bed6@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] datatracker perf issues X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2021 14:26:07 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------d00h3OBCy5b4G6CfXP2A3OhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 10/23/21 9:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:55 PM Robert Sparks > wrote: > > Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context > > On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> >> Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there >> is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at >> that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in >> the community on how quickly they will see a change when, >> say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is >> posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it >> will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled >> result, and make invalidation simpler. >> >> Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's >> true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is >> not high. >> >> -Ekr >> > > Be precise about "this data". > > > Well in this case it was a WG page, but another example is drafts. > These change quite infrequently and so should be quite cacheable. > > -Ekr > > > We can (and will) evolve to where we are serving those small bits > of data relatively independently and letting the browsers assemble > what we serve now as a blob, but we've for quite a while been held > to a requirement for things to work for people who didn't allow > javascript to run in their browser. Requiring javascript is > becoming more tolerated, so we can change the way the services are > constructed to take advantage of that. Even without that ability, > of course, there are things we may be able to decompose, but at > the moment, the cacheable unit for, say, > https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/tls/documents/, is the whole page. > > OK, but how often does this change? > > In any case the "no client JS" seems like something we should revisit. > If this were a single page app with a JSON API, the situation would be > far more flexible (and it would also make third party apps much easier) Agreed, and we have effectively already made that decision - there are many important pages that require client javascript already. > > -Ekr > --------------d00h3OBCy5b4G6CfXP2A3OhH Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 10/23/21 9:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 8:55 PM Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

Trimming, hopefully keeping enough of the relevant context

On 10/22/21 7:57 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

Yes, we can make better use of caching than we are, but there is a _lot_ of data on pages like the one EKR was looking at that is not cachable, unless we change the expectations in the community on how quickly they will see a change when, say, an AD changes a position, a new version of a document is posted, etc. Long term, I plan to refactor things so that it will be easier to cache the pieces rather than the assembled result, and make invalidation simpler.

Can you say more about why this data is not cacheable? While it's true that we want changes to appear quickly, the change rate is not high.

-Ekr


Be precise about "this data".


Well in this case it was a WG page, but another example is drafts. These change quite infrequently and so should be quite cacheable.

-Ekr


We can (and will) evolve to where we are serving those small bits of data relatively independently and letting the browsers assemble what we serve now as a blob, but we've for quite a while been held to a requirement for things to work for people who didn't allow javascript to run in their browser. Requiring javascript is becoming more tolerated, so we can change the way the services are constructed to take advantage of that. Even without that ability, of course, there are things we may be able to decompose, but at the moment, the cacheable unit for, say, https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/tls/documents/, is the whole page.

OK, but how often does this change?

In any case the "no client JS" seems like something we should revisit. If this were a single page app with a JSON API, the situation would be far more flexible (and it would also make third party apps much easier)
Agreed, and we have effectively already made that decision - there are many important pages that require client javascript already.

-Ekr

--------------d00h3OBCy5b4G6CfXP2A3OhH-- From nobody Tue Oct 26 16:50:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB593A194E for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BhWGXMKQxCG for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10ADF3A194D for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.114] ([47.186.34.206]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.17.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 19QNoJIq037757 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:50:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1635292220; bh=deZiJK2xTaqqxk5zO6spY4dHpoNJfBzQLQbXDtm1ePo=; h=Date:Subject:From:To:References:In-Reply-To; b=HdrTOqras2bcIZkmmFCZCCnVmlxFWzPErIhyrDchOahWqItSY/4OHVwiP+xkH3FNw ULETBoAAEjsi2nhbpwBXdTB8/ldqub9fwQgcbe3R+OIlq77Dg3Y0zYj3iCOHxcONiV wEANZeU5IYupjJ7TdBIHfGdLPVvEB+P+YlRtms0U= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.34.206] claimed to be [192.168.1.114] Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 18:50:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 Content-Language: en-US From: Robert Sparks To: tools-discuss References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Tools Workshop : Mail Processing - 6 Dec X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2021 23:50:27 -0000 (Reusing much of an earlier message, if this looks familiar, there's a reason. The important bit is fixing the date.) The tools team will be holding a series of workshops focused on different aspects of our applications and environment. The first will focus on Mail Processing We expect to go over the processing flow of email going to our lists, and discuss the following: *    IDN support         What a Mailman 3 migration would require         What would be different with Mailman 3         what would have to change in the rest of the processing chain *    Spam abatement         Virus scanning         Spamassassin         Postconfirm         Use of mailman’s mechanisms *    Ability to moderate a given participant *    DMARC rewriting *    Alias maintenance (-chairs@, -authors@, etc.) This first workshop will be held 1800-2100 UTC on 6 Dec. The workshop will be recorded and made available later, but the majority of it will be discussion, and there's no substitute for being part of that discussion. Coordinates for the workshop will follow. RjS From nobody Wed Oct 27 16:12:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998CC3A03EE; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZWlVR5cuX0p; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C593A0045; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 16:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB90F18021; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4Fl5az7m2agj; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DF21801B; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCBC585; Wed, 27 Oct 2021 19:12:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: wgchairs@ietf.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <163527776107.17003.7006428728609539051@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <163527776107.17003.7006428728609539051@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] many emails about CELLAR virtual interim X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2021 23:12:22 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yesterday, we agreed to the schedule of virtual interims for 2022. CELLAR is a WG that has very rarely met in person. (Although Madrid was discussed...) Instead of entering in 10 session requests, I entered three, in which I asked for 4, 3, and 3 sessions. I wondered if it would produce 3 emails rather than 10. Nope :-) Annoying is that the session request tool is happy to create sessions whatever time zone I indicate, while the meetecho tool wants to use my browser time. I hope that when they are integrated this will get solved. We hold our meetings at a constant time CET time (Europe/Amsterdam). [Specifically, after "bedtime" for some of the participants' kids.] So we don't want a constant UTC time... I found that I couldn't book the meetecho for December 2022 because it was too far in the future. Oh well, I'll do that in January. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmF53L8ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVLhwf+IwM8cr3unHS141KJ5gEr+mUctE08pYSj2NuTReSznvxJDA7NyLkiqgaQ RR67xdXRlx2q6QsN2+nKZVYH/kBT8RrzUzC8j5la3zzmEKKQYQ769mj65cbQZT2k SURMsxG4hiIGPFXxqlCU+4Vur/2Bh21Zp5KjAOizkucI0V5n/X1+ldmnozgO9M4N efQWaKp8Q1JoxPGvv4lKWKguQK+iXp7Y8LckcZQa9kdkZKOSj3TCU9AyST5xthjZ 0H+XaQ3M3gfxc4wkBtZ6956G+j4j+/cxR4sIAMjvY7w8vj11wCJvP2nFfuv3L8kH ow4ngR7SQuhT0h2t5/AGXRG3bllJGQ== =LRJv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Oct 29 05:39:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E763A11B3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_FAIL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cC3AQe7BUx_P for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [92.243.22.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 030613A1263 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPV6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd] (unknown [IPv6:2601:204:e600:411:d250:99ff:fedf:93cd]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2275AAE269; Fri, 29 Oct 2021 14:38:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4c2ef7b1-768e-4fdf-9efd-896e24926fd5@petit-huguenin.org> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 05:38:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.2.1 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Cc: Colin Perkins , Stephen McQuistin Content-Language: en-US To: Tools Discussion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Machine-readable documents at Hackathon 112 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 12:39:21 -0000 Stephen, Colin, and I would like to invite you to participate in the online IETF 112 Hackathon on our umbrella project of "Machine-readable documents and their tools": https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon#MachineReadable If you have done some work on that subject that you would like to present or discuss, or if you have opinions on that topic, or simply are curious about how machine-readable documents can make the Internet work better, and what tools are available to produce and use these documents, please join us. Stephen and I will be presenting our work with shorts live presentations at scheduled times during the week: https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/112hackathon/teamschedule Feel free to add your project to either or both Wiki pages. The Hackathon itself is free to attend and open to everyone: https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/hackathons/112-hackathon/ We are looking forward to meet you there. -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug