Subject: [Tools-team] Agenda for 8 Sep 2004 Telechat

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:45:05 +0200

Here is the proposed agenda for today's meeting.

---------------------------------------------------------

1. Agenda bashing

2. Comments on minutes from last teleconference.

3. Action item review.

	* All - give feedback on http://tools.levkowetz.com/

	* All - give feedback on next revision of I-D submission tool
	  requirements

	* Henrik to send announcement once prerequisites are fulfilled.

	* Larry to ask the w3 what software they are using to get peoples
	  consent to publish mailing list submissions

	* Henrik to nudge Stas on tools review/discussion wiki page

	* Alex will check up that there's a wiki page set up for the
	  framework thoughts/summary.

	* Alex to send out next revision of draft by Sunday

	* Henrik to continue the inventory on the web site

	* Alex - add comments on the announcement draft to the wiki page
	  ( http://tools.levkowetz.com/wiki/ToolsTeamAnnouncement )

	* Larry, Henrik, Stas - check the announcement draft wiki page

	* Larry to add a link from the wiki to the mailing lists's copies
	  of the meeting minutes.

	* Henrik will follow up on creation of "[email-masked]" list,
 	  and on the subdomain delegation

4. Status of drafts

5. Next steps

6. Any other business.

7. New action items, summary

8. Next meeting:

     Teleconference Wednesday 15 Sep, same time as today, same codes.

_______________________________________________
Tools-team mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-team

---

From: Alex Rousskov <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:59:47 -0600 (MDT)

Larry,

 	Thanks for integrating the two letters. Below are micro-level 
improvement suggestions. My primary motivation is to make the 
announcement shorter and more to-the-point, given IETFers short 
attention span and the amount of spam they already receive.

> Subject: Software tools for IETF: suggestions?

[Also consider:]
   Subject: Software for IETF: suggestions?
or
   Subject: TOOLs team seeks suggestions for IETF software.

> IETFers,
> 
> Do you have ideas for software tools that would make your IETF work
> easier? Do you have feedback about current IETF automation efforts?
> 
> As part of the overall effort to improve IETF operations
> and structure, a Tools team has been chartered to

> develop a requirements for additional and revised electronic
> tools to aid in the IETF operations.

   develop automation requirements for IETF operations.

> The charter of the Tools team (found at its web site,
> http://tools.ietf.org/)
> focuses primarily on tools to improve the interface
> between IETF administration and the broader community,
> and secondarily to aid in the operation of individual
> working groups and the tasks of standards development.

   TOOLs team looks at IETF administration interfaces (e.g., draft
   submission and meeting registration), working group activities
   (e.g., issue tracking and web space management), and individual
   participant needs (e.g., draft diffing and change notification).

> Recently, the development of some new tools has already been started 
> and some are in use; this group will continue this work.

[I would delete the above]

> The Tools team is soliciting new tool suggestions and general
> comments, to be massaged into a series of tool specifications.
> Tools specifications will then be used to implement or adopt
> software for IETF.
> 
> The first item on Tools team list is the automation
> of draft submission to allow for quick and painless
> validation and posting of Internet-Drafts. The first
> document describing the new draft submission tool is at
> http://XXX-put-idsubmission-draft-url-here-once-posted.

> What should we work on next? Please visit a list
> of pending tools and send us additions as well as priority
> preferences: http://XXX-put-future-tools-page-url-here.

[The above paragraph should be polished to reflect actual
  web site state at the time of announcement. Currently, we
  have no good place to see all "future/proposed" tools, and
  priority page is not integrated with future tools.]

> Please send all Tools-related feedback to
> [email-masked], a newly formed mailing list,
> archived at http://XXX-tools-discuss-mailing-list-archive.

> The members of the tools team are:
> 
>  * Henrik Levkowetz (chair);
>  * Bill Fenner;
>  * Larry Masinter;
>  * Alex Rousskov;
>  * Stanislav Shalunov.

[Delete the bulleted list or move it to signature]

> Web site for Tools team:
>  http://tools.ietf.org/

> Schedule:
> 
> The group will initially focus on additional tools
> for use in the interface between the IETF administration
> and the broader IETF community.
> 
> A draft set of requirements for an Internet-Drafts
> Submission Tool will be posted shortly.
> 
> Other administrative tools are expected to be specified
> over the next six months. We will put together
> a list and priority schedule within that time frame.
> 
> The Tools team may also conduct polls within the community for
> input on priorities, requirements, and feedback
> on currently deployed tools.
> 
> After the initial focus on administrative tools,
> the group will turn attention to tools of use
> for aiding working groups.

[I would delete all of the above starting with "Schedule:"]

> Internet Drafts in preparation:
> 
>  * Internet Drafts Submissions Tool
>  * XXX: fill in more drafts here

Thank you,

Alex.

---

From: Alex Rousskov <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:05:07 -0600 (MDT)

Henrik,

 	Looking at all the tool-describing pages we have and need to 
have, I think it is time to auto-generate them. We have a lot of 
information that must be organized in various ways to be usable.

 	Would you be willing to define a simple XML DTD for a tool 
entry and write a script to generate the following HTML tables (or 
pages): all tools, tools for a given category (secretariat, WG, etc.), 
all future tools, all current tools, other?

 	I can write a simple Perl script to generate tables of pages 
if you prefer.

Thank you,

Alex.

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:07:46 +0200

Hi Alex,

> information that must be organized in various ways to be usable.

Agree.  

> all future tools, all current tools, other?

Sure, already have been thinking in this direction; this is the way
I organize almost all of the pages that can be handled that way.
The only reason I haven't done so already is that exactly what would
be the final content and look hasn't jelled in my mind yet - so I
expect to work manually with the pages till it does, and then script
it so we can sort, partition, merge etc. the information according to
need.

	Henrik

---

From: Alex Rousskov <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:15:44 -0600 (MDT)

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

>> pages): all tools, tools for a given category (secretariat, WG, 
>> etc.), all future tools, all current tools, other?
>
> I organize almost all of the pages that can be handled that way. The 
> only reason I haven't done so already is that exactly what would be 
> the final content and look hasn't jelled in my mind yet - so I 
> it so we can sort, partition, merge etc. the information according 
> to need.

Henrik,

I am glad we agree in principle, but I am not sure how to interpret 
the above with regard to what should be done before we sent the 
announcement.

I would like to auto-generate the pages _before_ the announcement is 
out. I am happy to give you XML sources, the script, and/or the HTML 
output if you do not have time to do it now. You will change 
everything later if needed, but I think it would benefit us to have 
these generated pages for the first announcement (even if we 
completely change the design later).

Do you think we should generate said pages now? If yes, do you have 
cycles and desire to do that? If you want the pages, but do not have 
the cycles or desire, would you mind accepting temporary scripts/HTML 
from me (I can make HTML look similar to what you currently have on 
some of the tools pages)?

Thanks,

Alex.

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:38:53 +0200

Hi Alex,

> completely change the design later).

As I don't feel that I see clearly what we won't, my intention has
been to do this by hand till it becomes clearer.

> cycles and desire to do that? 

Cycles I could find, but doing it without knowing where we want to go
doesn't necessarily make sense to me :-)  I find that working manually
with pages often helps me think about how to make them come out good
- then suddenly at some point I know that I'm ready to script their
generation.

> If you want the pages, but do not have 

Not sure I see the benefit, but if you have a burning desire to do
something, the least I can do is to look at the result :-)
I'll continue tweaking the pages manually - there are a few things I've
put on one or two of the pages which I want to put on all before we 
'go live' .

	Henrik