Subject: [Tools-team] Re: Tools team query: Is there an obligation to know who I-D submissions are coming from?

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:29:32 +0200

--On fredag, september 03, 2004 01:49:33 -0400 "Contreras, Jorge" 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>
> Harald,
>
> Here's a quick thought from vacation.  I can do more on returning to the
> office next Th:
>
> I believe that all ID submissions must include the author's name.
> Presumably this is to help readers understand the IP situation, among
> other things. Giving false name info or no name info would be a violation
> of the submission rules.  Thus, I could see a patent holder having a
> tough time enforcing his patents in a standard if he lied about his
> identity in submitting the ID.

I can see that!

>  There is no overt duty by the IETF to verify accuracy of name
> information.  However, if this info appears blatantly false (eg drafts
> submitted by Micky Mouse), or if someone brings a falsity to IETF's
> attention, or if the info is just missing,  then I think the organization
> could have a duty to seek to get the info corrected/completed before
> allowing the draft to be published.

With missing info, I can see the secretariat (or a mechanical tool) 
enforcing that.
It's harder to determine "blatantly false" - especially if you want to do 
it without a human in the loop. Would it be appropriate to just institute a 
procedure where the secretariat would remove an I-D from the directories 
when someone pointed out that its authorship is blatantly false be enough?

> The theory being that the IETF needs
> to maintain some level of compliance with its rules in order for them to
> be meaningful.
>
> If IETF chose not to require such correction/confirmation, then I don't
> see any large liability, but do see an erosion of the value of the IETF
> rules.
>
> Is there a thought that anonymous submissions be allowed as part of the
> IETF rules?  If so, then the above concern goes away, since there would
> be no rule violation.

Some anonymous contributions have been part of IETF tradition (the 
draft-ymbk series were traditionally published under the name of a 
long-dead mathematican; there are others.)

> By the way, the submitter of an ID is bound by the IPR rules, whether or
> not he tells the truth!  So that is not a concern.

That's good!

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---

From: Alex Rousskov <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:41:24 -0600 (MDT)

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote:

>> By the way, the submitter of an ID is bound by the IPR rules, 
>> whether or not he tells the truth!  So that is not a concern.
>
> That's good!

Actually, that is the cause of one of the problems we are trying to 
address:

If I, pretending to be ExampleSoft authorized representative, submit a 
draft that essentially releases ExampleSoft IP to the public domain, 
will ExampleSoft be bound by the IPR rules?

Your first reaction would be, "Surely not! We will remove the draft as 
soon as ExampleSoft complains! ExampleSoft cannot be bound by rules 
they did not consent to!". However, now consider the case when I 
actually was NOT pretending, and ExampleSoft is lying that the draft 
was submitted by somebody outside of ExampleSoft. They did submit the 
draft but then changed their mind and want to revoke it... Meanwhile, 
their competitors already writing code using that IP.

IETF will be between the pressure from the community to keep the draft 
(and possibly get sued by ExampleSoft) and the pressure from 
ExampleSoft to delete the draft (possibly get sued by ExampleSoft 
competitors).

How will IETF know what is actually going on, and how it will avoid 
liability without verifying (to some extent), at the time of 
submission, that submitter is who they say they are?

Alex.

P.S. I deleted Jorge Contreras from the CC list since I am not sure
      the above is distilled enough for lawyers to be involved. IANAL.

---

From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:30:59 +0200

--On fredag, september 03, 2004 13:41:24 -0600 Alex Rousskov 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> draft that essentially releases ExampleSoft IP to the public domain, will
> ExampleSoft be bound by the IPR rules?

YOU - the submitter - will be bound by the rules.
Remember - the phrase is "....the author reprsents that...." - there is 
nothing there about Examplesoft.

If you work for EvilCompany, and claim to submit on behalf of Examplesoft, 
Examplesoft has good reason to act against EvilCompany for the misbehaviour 
of its employee.

If you can get out of your mind the idea that a company submits a draft, 
the situation DOES become a bit clearer.

                     Harald