Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDS69@eListX.com>; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDS68@eListX.com> (original mail from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00703MDS66@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDR65@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSU0048MMDQGE@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27930; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:52:57 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-id: <200004111052.GAA27930@ietf.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg)" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg) A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Open Trading Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Internet Open Trading Protocol (IOTP) HTTP Supplement Author(s) : D. Eastlake 3rd, C. Smith Filename : draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Pages : 9 Date : 10-Apr-00 Internet Open Trading Protocol (IOTP [draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0- protocol-*.txt]) messages will be carried as XML documents. As such, the goal of mapping to the transport layer is to ensure that the underlying XML documents are carried successfully between the various parties. This documents describes that mapping for the Hyper Text Transport Protocol (HTTP), Versions 1.0 and 1.1. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg)" --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg) Content-type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20000410122029.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg) Content-type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20000410122029.I-D@ietf.org> --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg)-- --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS6Y2@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS5Y1@eListX.com> (original mail from Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00403KS5XZ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS4XY@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FST00438KS2GE@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id OAA16650 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: [from ont15exm1.ont.isg.mot.com (ont15exch1.ont.isg.mot.com [219.1.83.99]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA26594 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:20:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by ont15exch1.ont.isg.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:51 -0400 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:47 -0400 From: Eastlake Donald-LDE008 Subject: Agenda and slides from TRADE WG meeting in Adelaide To: "'ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com'" Message-id: <642F9A357902D411BA5F0008C79197562590AA@ma07exm1.corp.isg.mot.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA)" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here are my slides from the meeting. I'll be sending these, the minutes I previously posted, and the DRT slides in for the IETF proceedings. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUY5U@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUY5T@eListX.com> (original mail from dee3@torque.pothole.com) ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00403AUX5R@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUX5Q@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([209.94.126.195]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FST00NIVAUH5A@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by torque.pothole.com (8.8.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03530; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:47:19 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Re: document readability In-reply-to: "Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 EDT." <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> To: "Smith, Chris " Cc: iotp Message-id: <200004101747.NAA03530@torque.pothole.com> X-Authentication-warning: torque.pothole.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , X-MTS: smtp The RFC editor usually makes only very minor changes... But the front matter changes somewhat and any referecnes to Internet-Drafts have to be replaced with references to RFCs, the pagination frequently changes, etc... The authors do get a couple of days to check the RFC before it is publicly announced. Donald From: "Smith, Chris " Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 -0400 To: iotp Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> >Also on this topic - what degree of change does the RCC editor >typically make? How different will the final be from the=20 >draft 07? > >------------------------------------------------------------=20 > Chris = >Smith = > +1.416.348.6090=20 > Royal = >Bank = >chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com] >> Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM >> To: David Burdett >> Subject: Re: document readability >> >> Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within >> the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier >> .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., >> although this would obviously be a lot of work. >> >> Donald Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V2WF@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V2WE@eListX.com> (original mail from CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM) ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003037V1WC@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V1WB@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.royalbank.com (smtp1.royalbank.com [198.96.131.40]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with SMTP id <0FST00NGR7V05A@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsecure2.royalbank.com by smtp1.royalbank.com via smtpd (for one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) with SMTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:40:55 +0000 (UT) Received: from 10.224.0.66 by se001020.royalbank.com with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v3.6.2); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:46:21 -0400 Received: by SE001016.rbc1.royalbank.com with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 -0400 From: "Smith, Chris " Subject: RE: document readability To: iotp Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA)" X-Server-Uuid: d237928a-6c98-11d3-985c-00a0c9ea509d X-WSS-ID: 14ECDAD72318195-01-01 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Also on this topic - what degree of change does the RCC editor typically make? How different will the final be from the=20 draft 07? ------------------------------------------------------------=20 =A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090=20 =A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com] > Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM > To: David Burdett > Subject: Re: document readability >=20 > Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within > the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier > .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., > although this would obviously be a lot of work. >=20 > Donald --Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable RE: document readability

Also on this topic - what degree of change does the = RCC editor
typically make? How different will the final be from = the
draft 07?

------------------------------------------------------------ =
=A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090
=A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com]
> Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM
> To: David Burdett
> Subject: Re: document readability
>
> Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, = the ideal thing within
> the constraints of the RFC serious would then = be to prepare a fancier
> .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer = figures, etc.,
> although this would obviously be a lot of = work.
>
> Donald

--Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF3H3@eListX.com>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF3H2@eListX.com> (original mail from dee3@torque.pothole.com) ; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G03EF3H0@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF2GZ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([209.94.126.195]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSO00E5GEEOU7@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by torque.pothole.com (8.8.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04297; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:15:50 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Re: document readability In-reply-to: "Your message of Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 PDT." <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> To: David Burdett Cc: 'Don Isenor' , iotp Message-id: <200004080215.WAA04297@torque.pothole.com> X-Authentication-warning: torque.pothole.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , X-MTS: smtp Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., although this would obviously be a lot of work. Donald From: David Burdett Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 -0700 To: "'Don Isenor'" , iotp Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> >Don > >I'm afraid you're out of luck. > >You correctly guess that the original is in MS Word, but everything >(headers, tables, etc) is in courier font with a non-standard paper size - >it's the only way I know of creating a document that can then be used to >generate output that can be formatted to meet the IETF requirement for plain >text. > >If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of the MS Word version please send >me an email and I'll send you a copy. > >David > >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Isenor [mailto:disenor@computer.org] >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 4:19 PM >To: iotp >Subject: document readability > > >Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and >having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may >guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to >read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word >(or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables >of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. >Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? > >Don Isenor >Ambercon Inc. >disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X3SK@eListX.com>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X2SJ@eListX.com> (original mail from david.burdett@commerceone.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F034X2SH@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X2SG@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c1plenaexi02.commerceone.com ([12.22.60.1]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSO00E3R4X1U7@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by c1plenaexi02.commerceone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2M75ZGMK>; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:46:50 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 -0700 From: David Burdett Subject: RE: document readability To: 'Don Isenor' , iotp Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Don I'm afraid you're out of luck. You correctly guess that the original is in MS Word, but everything (headers, tables, etc) is in courier font with a non-standard paper size - it's the only way I know of creating a document that can then be used to generate output that can be formatted to meet the IETF requirement for plain text. If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of the MS Word version please send me an email and I'll send you a copy. David -----Original Message----- From: Don Isenor [mailto:disenor@computer.org] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 4:19 PM To: iotp Subject: document readability Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word (or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? Don Isenor Ambercon Inc. disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BN03A@eListX.com>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BN039@eListX.com> (original mail from disenor@computer.org); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B03BMZ37@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BMZ36@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSM00A2VBMYIN@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer.org (www.ambercon-inc.com [209.250.134.123]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03933 for ; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:19:03 -0400 From: Don Isenor Subject: document readability To: iotp Message-id: <38ED1B66.4F157127@computer.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word (or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? Don Isenor Ambercon Inc. disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWNHN@eListX.com>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWNHM@eListX.com> (original mail from david.burdett@commerceone.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00703ZWNHK@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWMHJ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c1plenaexi01.commerceone.com ([12.22.60.14]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSK0056IZWLQR@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by c1plenaexi01.commerceone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:10:32 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:09:11 -0700 From: David Burdett Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. To: "Michie, Alan" , "'Smith, Chris '" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F0102781F@neptune.commerceone.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , There is another feature as well that helps to provide security in that the Delivery Data element also contains OkFrom and OkTo date/times. If the request is received outside of these times then it is invalid and shouldn't be processed. It also means that, once the delivery handler has been paide and the OkTo date/time is passed, then the original request can be safely deleted, if the Delivery Handler has no other reason to keep it. Regards David -----Original Message----- From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:15 PM To: 'Smith, Chris ' Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, Jamie Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Chris, Thanks for the detailed and insightful reply. It was your very last sentence: " Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. " that settled the matter for me. Regards Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Smith, Chris [SMTP:CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM] > Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2000 12:38 am > To: 'Michie, Alan'; 'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd' > Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, > Jamie > Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > > > First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually > 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The > delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, > and the low-level package details in the note should > provide all the needed information. However, looking > at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. > > The Delivery Request should be signed over over the > transaction and message IDs involved, especially if > the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This > means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer > to anything but the transaction you are working on. The > Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate > requests because they refer to the same transaction id > and message id, and include the appropriate signatures > from the payment exchange. > > First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the > duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is > required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply > to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be > sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This > is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not > know the state of the customer**. The customer may have > never received the original reply, and is resending the > Delivery Request. > > The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates > at a business level. For digital delivery, this could > be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order > to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client > software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that > there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, > since they will only trigger a restart of a process > that was valid that first time it was started. For > real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even > less of a problem, since you can return the same > information (the Delivery Note details may include > shipping information, for example), but the Delivery > Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not > start a second shipping process. > > Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not > being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to > keep track of all previous delivery requests" However, > this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler > who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. > Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track > of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Chris Smith +1.416.348.6090 > Royal Bank chris.smith@royalbank.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michie, Alan [ ] > > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > ... > > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > > been involved for long enough). > > > > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > > response to a single payment response from the merchant? > ... > > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. > > > Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLNT8@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLNT7@eListX.com> (original mail from services@eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00603PLMT5@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLMT4@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eListX.com by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLMT3@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au [202.12.144.17]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSK00533JNMQR@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA13850; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au(202.12.142.17) via SMTP by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au, id smtpd0wWyAO; Thu Apr 6 10:17:29 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA01830; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:17:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "mail.cdn.telstra.com.au" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdozpIR_; Thu Apr 6 10:15:56 2000 Received: from ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au (ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au [192.168.174.24]) by mail.cdn.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA29429; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:55 +1000 (EST) Received: by ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2KZQ10R4>; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:28 +1000 Resent-date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:17 +1000 From: "Michie, Alan" Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Sender: services@eListX.com To: "'Smith, Chris '" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Resent-message-id: <0FSK00602PLMT4@eListX.com> Message-id: <2F2C4AFACA58D21186090008C724838902925CA2@ntmsg0022.corpmail.telstra.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Chris, Thanks for the detailed and insightful reply. It was your very last sentence: " Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. " that settled the matter for me. Regards Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Smith, Chris [SMTP:CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM] > Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2000 12:38 am > To: 'Michie, Alan'; 'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd' > Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, > Jamie > Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > > > First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually > 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The > delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, > and the low-level package details in the note should > provide all the needed information. However, looking > at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. > > The Delivery Request should be signed over over the > transaction and message IDs involved, especially if > the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This > means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer > to anything but the transaction you are working on. The > Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate > requests because they refer to the same transaction id > and message id, and include the appropriate signatures > from the payment exchange. > > First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the > duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is > required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply > to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be > sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This > is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not > know the state of the customer**. The customer may have > never received the original reply, and is resending the > Delivery Request. > > The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates > at a business level. For digital delivery, this could > be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order > to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client > software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that > there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, > since they will only trigger a restart of a process > that was valid that first time it was started. For > real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even > less of a problem, since you can return the same > information (the Delivery Note details may include > shipping information, for example), but the Delivery > Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not > start a second shipping process. > > Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not > being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to > keep track of all previous delivery requests" However, > this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler > who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. > Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track > of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Chris Smith +1.416.348.6090 > Royal Bank chris.smith@royalbank.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michie, Alan [ ] > > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > ... > > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > > been involved for long enough). > > > > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > > response to a single payment response from the merchant? > ... > > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. > > > Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SSA96@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SS995@eListX.com> (original mail from CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM) ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00403SS993@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SS992@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.royalbank.com (smtp2.royalbank.com [198.96.131.29]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with SMTP id <0FSJ0008RSS8NV@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsecure4.royalbank.com by smtp2.royalbank.com via smtpd (for one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) with SMTP; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:38:08 +0000 (UT) Received: from 10.224.0.67 by se001018.royalbank.com with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v3.6.2); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:40 -0400 Received: by se001017.royalbank.com with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:38 -0400 From: "Smith, Chris " Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. To: "'Michie, Alan'" , "'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd'" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB04615430@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ)" X-Server-Uuid: 69f58f12-9d1a-11d3-825a-00609455ee28 X-WSS-ID: 14F5903E571342-01-01 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, and the low-level package details in the note should provide all the needed information. However, looking at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. The Delivery Request should be signed over over the transaction and message IDs involved, especially if the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer to anything but the transaction you are working on. The Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate requests because they refer to the same transaction id and message id, and include the appropriate signatures from the payment exchange. First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not know the state of the customer**. The customer may have never received the original reply, and is resending the Delivery Request. The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates at a business level. For digital delivery, this could be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, since they will only trigger a restart of a process that was valid that first time it was started. For real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even less of a problem, since you can return the same information (the Delivery Note details may include shipping information, for example), but the Delivery Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not start a second shipping process. Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests". However, this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. ------------------------------------------------------------=20 =A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090=20 =A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com] > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. ... > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > been involved for long enough). >=20 > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > response to a single payment response from the merchant? ... > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. >=20 --Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording.

First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually
'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The
delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished,
and the low-level package details in the note should
provide all the needed information. However, looking
at the response may be one step too far, at least initially.

The Delivery Request should be signed over over the
transaction and message IDs involved, especially if
the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This
means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer
to anything but the transaction you are working on. The
Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate
requests because they refer to the same transaction id
and message id, and include the appropriate signatures
from the payment exchange.

First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the
duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is
required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply
to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be
sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This
is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not
know the state of the customer**. The customer may have
never received the original reply, and is resending the
Delivery Request.

The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates
at a business level. For digital delivery, this could
be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order
to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client
software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that
there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests,
since they will only trigger a restart of a process
that was valid that first time it was started. For
real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even
less of a problem, since you can return the same
information (the Delivery Note details may include
shipping information, for example), but the Delivery
Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not
start a second shipping process.

Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not
being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to
keep track of all previous delivery requests". However,
this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler
who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange.
Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track
of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant.

------------------------------------------------------------
 Chris Smith                                +1.416.348.6090
 Royal Bank                       chris.smith@royalbank.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com]
> Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording.
...
> Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating
> IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security
> hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't
> been involved for long enough).
>
> It involves the general case where the delivery handler and
> the merchant are separate entities.  What is to stop a
> consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in
> response to a single payment response from the merchant?
...
> I don't think it is reasonable to expect the  delivery
> handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests.
> Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers.
>

--Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORTMD@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORTMC@eListX.com> (original mail from services@eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00303ORTMA@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORSM9@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eListX.com by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORSM8@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au [202.12.144.17]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSJ0006XN40NV@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA04734; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:34:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au(202.12.142.17) via SMTP by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au, id smtpdCz9rP_; Wed Apr 5 22:34:03 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA00581; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:34:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "mail.cdn.telstra.com.au" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpd0_J9zL; Wed Apr 5 22:29:22 2000 Received: from ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au (ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au [192.168.174.24]) by mail.cdn.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10466; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2KZQ1N8K>; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:28:54 +1000 Resent-date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:36:05 +1000 From: "Michie, Alan" Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Sender: services@eListX.com To: "'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd'" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Resent-message-id: <0FSJ00302ORSM9@eListX.com> Message-id: <2F2C4AFACA58D21186090008C724838902925C9F@ntmsg0022.corpmail.telstra.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hello Donald, It was good to meet you at IETF 47. Sorry I couldn't stay past Tuesday and be present for the IOTP session. To Donald or anyone else who knows the answer Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't been involved for long enough). It involves the general case where the delivery handler and the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in response to a single payment response from the merchant? I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. What do you think? Regards, Alan Alan Michie Project Leader Telstra Research Laboratories. +61 2 8255 3085 Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZM33@eListX.com>; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZM32@eListX.com> (original mail from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) ; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F03FZL30@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZL2Z@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp (tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp [192.68.248.40]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSF00E1SFZI0N@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nttmail.ecl.ntt.co.jp (nttmail.tas.ntt.co.jp [192.68.248.11]) by tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/01/21/00) with ESMTP id PAA21691; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:24 +0900 (JST envelope-from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) Received: from renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp by nttmail.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/03/09/00) with ESMTP id PAA02303; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:21 +0900 (JST envelope-from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) Received: from renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp by renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp (8.8.8/isl-2.0) id PAA20522; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:18 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:18 +0900 From: Ko Fujimura Subject: Re: Draft Adelaide Minutes In-reply-to: "In your message of Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500" <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, lde008@dma.isg.mot.com, dee3@torque.pothole.com Cc: fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (generated by REMI 1.14.0 - "Uragawara") Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII User-Agent: REMI/1.14.0 (Uragawara) CLIME/1.13.6 (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2YlTj4xGyhC?=) APEL/10.1 MULE XEmacs/21.2 (beta31) (Iris) (sparc-sun-solaris2.6) References: <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hi Don and Andrew, Thank you very much for making the excellent minute. I have no comments on it. At Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500, Donald E. Eastlake 3rd wrote: > Presented by Ko Fujimura (fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) > [Expect to post slides to the list soon.] I put the slides on the following location: http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/flexticket/ietf/trade-drt-47.ppt Regards, Ko Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NG1I@eListX.com>; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NF1H@eListX.com> (original mail from kcwong@cs.ust.hk); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C034NF1F@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NF1E@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cssvr17.cs.ust.hk (cssvr17.cs.ust.hk [143.89.41.167]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSE0093F4NDR4@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imz010 (imz010.ust.hk [143.89.56.10]) by cssvr17.cs.ust.hk (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e32D8Z623556; Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:08:35 +0800 (HKT) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:12:35 +0800 From: Wong Ka Cheong Subject: Question on Delivery Request To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Cc: Andre Chan , Bobby Tam Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Full-name: Wong Ka Cheong List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hi, I am studing on IOTP. I have a question on Delivery Request. Q1. In ur spec., u says copy following component from the Offer Response Block: Status Component Order Component Organisation Component Delivery Component However, in Offer Reponse, there is not required Organisation Component. How can we copy on it. Q2. In creating TPO Block, u says need Organisation Component. It required Merchant Consumer and Payment Handler(s). When consumer want to buy something on IOTP, is it required to get the consumer information before transaction, otherwise, we havent consumer to create TPO Block. Thanks Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIGY0@eListX.com>; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 14:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIGXZ@eListX.com> (original mail from lde008@dma.isg.mot.com) ; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00803SIFXX@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIFXW@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSC00568SIEJG@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA14072; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:48:55 -0700 (MST) Received: [from noah.dma.isg.mot.com (noah.dma.isg.mot.com [150.21.2.29]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA21704; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:48:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from dma.isg.mot.com (nrlab-10.dma.isg.mot.com [150.21.50.48]) by noah.dma.isg.mot.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09189; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Draft Adelaide Minutes To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Cc: dee3@torque.pothole.com Message-id: <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , 47th IETF Meeting, Adelaide Australia TRADE WG Wednesday, March 29th, 2000 [Notes by Andrew Drapp, edited by Donald Eastlake.] AGENDA: Agenda Bashing Status of Documents Implementation News Digital Rights Trading Charter update Future Meetings AGENDA BASHING Don presented the Agenda and asked if anyone had anything to add. Nobody had anything to add. STATUS OF DOCUMENTS The 3 main documents have been in the RFC editor's queue since last November. draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-protocol-07 draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-dsig-05 draft-ietf-trade--hiroshi-dom-hash-03 One problem is because the size of the largest is 276 pages. Currently the editor is on page 207. 2 documents revised recently and will be moved to WG last call status very soon after a further minor revision. draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-04 draft-ietf-trade-mime-detector-02 SET and Payment API documents recently posted as drafts by Yoshiaki Kawatsura: draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-set-00 draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-papi-00 Kawatsura reports that Werner Hans of SIZ is the author of Payment API, and he will be revising the document within the next month. The current SET document (00) is based on IOTP v0.99, and a new version will be released a month after the new Payment API is released. The new document will include input from SETCo and the SMILE project. SCCD draft not yet posted. Digital Rights Trading (new work by Ko Fujimura) to be presented today. draft-ietf-trade-dtr-requirements-00 XML messaging (new work see charter discussion): draft-ietf-trade-xmlmsg-requirements-00 XML messaging is a generic form of communicating between various partners, in a dynamic order based on IOTP's request/exchange/response format. If this should be continued within the trade WG will be discussed later during the charter discussion. Future documents: No documents yet. IOTP v2.0 ECML v2.0 Someone asked for more information on ECML, and Don explained that ECML is a standardized method for identifying fields in HTML. In the simplest case, an ECML wallet would help to fill out forms automatically. ECML v1.0 is out as an informational RFC. Someone else asked how ECML relates to P3P. Don explained that P3P is just =a schema, and used as a way of imputing privacy preferences. ECML has a smaller area of focus. The ECML consortium is working on a version v1.1. Currently v1.0 and v1.1 are a one-way protocols, and do not allow for merchant to consumer type communications. HTTP/HTTP HTTP Supplement specifies the Application/IOTP MIME type, with /X-IOTP for backwards compatibility. Discussion on the IETF-Types mail list indicates that an optional charset parameter should be added, and Done plans on adding that shortly if there are no objections it will be added. There was a lot of discussion on IETF-Types if the MIME type should be changed to Application/IOTP-XML. Eventually new XML encoded type will probably be changed to end in "-xml", but as of now, no change is expected from Application/IOTP. IMPLEMENTATION NEWS Hitachi, et al, SMILE Royal Bank of Canada SIZ CyberSource Differential Xenosys Corporation PayByCheck.com Brokat SMILE- to go into In house trials in June, with full trials later. RBC - Implemented v0.9 in its teller system, will do v1.0 SIZ - Unknown ...(note taker fell behind, sorry)... DIGITAL RIGHTS TRADING Presented by Ko Fujimura (fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) [Expect to post slides to the list soon.] Ko Fujimura explained how Digital Rights (DR), a sort of Digital Claim Ticket, or Digital Bearer Instrument can be exchanged or traded. Rights in this case do not refer to IP rights, but instead the right to claim goods or services. A requirements document has been released, but there have been few comments on it yet. The relationship to IOTP is that a DR could be used as a payment method (gift certificate, coupon, etc) or it could be used as a deliverable (ticket), or a different role of Loyalty Handler could be created to issue or collect Loyalty points. Ko Fujimura plans on publishing the requirements document as an informational RFC. He plans to clarify the relationship with IOTP and include any relevant comments from others. Afterwards, he would to start work on a specification, and he needs volunteers to help work on it. Q&A (I'm sorry I don't know anyone's names) Q: The name is a bit confusing with IP rights. A: Agreed Q: Could the system be generalized as a type of e-Cash. A: It may be possible in the strictest sense of gift certificates or frequent flyer miles. But could be difficult for other types, (percentage off, tickets, etc.) Q: Can you make a backup of DRs, as you can with Digicash? A: Depends on the DR type, and DR Trading System (DRTS) that is implemented. Basically, Merchants can design their own DRs (with their own rules) that can be incorporated in a more generic DRTS. Q: Could it be split up into more specific roles. So, involved parties could focus on the only area they are interested. For example, coupons and frequent flyer miles are an inherently different type of item, with different companies being involved, with little overlap. A: It could be split up, but Fujimura at this point has not noticed anybody else offering to write such specs or systems, so as long as he is basically working on it by himself, he would prefer to keep it as one item. Q: Could you link or change rights from one type to another? A: Don explains that this is very similar to an exchange type transaction already supported in IOTP. Q: What is the difference of a DR versus a currency. A: There is not too much difference but there is some, as in tickets (with a seat number or specific show, after which it becomes worthless). Q: Is there a loyalty component in ECML, such as for a membership number? A: No, none in version 1.0 or 1.1, but it could be included in version 2.0. CHARTER UPDATE New Charter submitted to Area Director after last IETF meeting, but has not yet been approved. Review of changes to charter: Notes completion of IOTP v1.0, adjusted milestones, split IOTP into v2.0 into XML messaging layer, and trading specific portions, add EXML 2.0 and Digital Trading requirements. Multiple interested venues for XML messaging - -Trade WG, EDIINT WG, ebXML, BLOCKS BoF, B2BXML BoF Should XML messaging be included in TRADE WG, or moved to a different location? Should we change the charter and drop the XML messaging? Consensus in favor of dropping XML messaging from the TRADE WG. A copy of the new proposed charter will be posted shortly? FUTURE MEETINGS Next IETF Meeting Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. July 31 - August 4 Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDS69@eListX.com>; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDS68@eListX.com> (original mail from nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us) ; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00703MDS66@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSU00701MDR65@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSU0048MMDQGE@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA27930; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:52:57 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-id: <200004111052.GAA27930@ietf.org> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg)" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg) A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Open Trading Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Internet Open Trading Protocol (IOTP) HTTP Supplement Author(s) : D. Eastlake 3rd, C. Smith Filename : draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Pages : 9 Date : 10-Apr-00 Internet Open Trading Protocol (IOTP [draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0- protocol-*.txt]) messages will be carried as XML documents. As such, the goal of mapping to the transport layer is to ensure that the underlying XML documents are carried successfully between the various parties. This documents describes that mapping for the Hyper Text Transport Protocol (HTTP), Versions 1.0 and 1.1. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg)" --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg) Content-type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20000410122029.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg) Content-type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20000410122029.I-D@ietf.org> --Boundary_(ID_Ikly4QDFRCNYWlP8tiJ4Zg)-- --Boundary_(ID_nu5pH8Uj3A+BuRzKjJeclg)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS6Y2@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS5Y1@eListX.com> (original mail from Donald.Eastlake@motorola.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00403KS5XZ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401KS4XY@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FST00438KS2GE@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id OAA16650 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: [from ont15exm1.ont.isg.mot.com (ont15exch1.ont.isg.mot.com [219.1.83.99]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA26594 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:20:52 -0700 (MST) Received: by ont15exch1.ont.isg.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:51 -0400 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:47 -0400 From: Eastlake Donald-LDE008 Subject: Agenda and slides from TRADE WG meeting in Adelaide To: "'ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com'" Message-id: <642F9A357902D411BA5F0008C79197562590AA@ma07exm1.corp.isg.mot.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA)" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Here are my slides from the meeting. I'll be sending these, the minutes I previously posted, and the DRT slides in for the IETF proceedings. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --Boundary_(ID_NEKcacB1+WUsDyPzdiaxWA)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUY5U@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUY5T@eListX.com> (original mail from dee3@torque.pothole.com) ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00403AUX5R@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST00401AUX5Q@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([209.94.126.195]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FST00NIVAUH5A@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by torque.pothole.com (8.8.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03530; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:47:19 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Re: document readability In-reply-to: "Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 EDT." <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> To: "Smith, Chris " Cc: iotp Message-id: <200004101747.NAA03530@torque.pothole.com> X-Authentication-warning: torque.pothole.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , X-MTS: smtp The RFC editor usually makes only very minor changes... But the front matter changes somewhat and any referecnes to Internet-Drafts have to be replaced with references to RFCs, the pagination frequently changes, etc... The authors do get a couple of days to check the RFC before it is publicly announced. Donald From: "Smith, Chris " Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 -0400 To: iotp Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> >Also on this topic - what degree of change does the RCC editor >typically make? How different will the final be from the=20 >draft 07? > >------------------------------------------------------------=20 > Chris = >Smith = > +1.416.348.6090=20 > Royal = >Bank = >chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com] >> Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM >> To: David Burdett >> Subject: Re: document readability >> >> Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within >> the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier >> .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., >> although this would obviously be a lot of work. >> >> Donald Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V2WF@eListX.com>; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V2WE@eListX.com> (original mail from CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM) ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003037V1WC@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FST003017V1WB@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.royalbank.com (smtp1.royalbank.com [198.96.131.40]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with SMTP id <0FST00NGR7V05A@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsecure2.royalbank.com by smtp1.royalbank.com via smtpd (for one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) with SMTP; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:40:55 +0000 (UT) Received: from 10.224.0.66 by se001020.royalbank.com with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v3.6.2); Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:46:21 -0400 Received: by SE001016.rbc1.royalbank.com with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:41:35 -0400 From: "Smith, Chris " Subject: RE: document readability To: iotp Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB0461543B@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA)" X-Server-Uuid: d237928a-6c98-11d3-985c-00a0c9ea509d X-WSS-ID: 14ECDAD72318195-01-01 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Also on this topic - what degree of change does the RCC editor typically make? How different will the final be from the=20 draft 07? ------------------------------------------------------------=20 =A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090=20 =A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com] > Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM > To: David Burdett > Subject: Re: document readability >=20 > Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within > the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier > .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., > although this would obviously be a lot of work. >=20 > Donald --Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable RE: document readability

Also on this topic - what degree of change does the = RCC editor
typically make? How different will the final be from = the
draft 07?

------------------------------------------------------------ =
=A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090
=A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald E. Eastlake 3rd [mailto:dee3@torque.pothole.com]
> Sent: April 7, 2000 10:16 PM
> To: David Burdett
> Subject: Re: document readability
>
> Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, = the ideal thing within
> the constraints of the RFC serious would then = be to prepare a fancier
> .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer = figures, etc.,
> although this would obviously be a lot of = work.
>
> Donald

--Boundary_(ID_N2Kt4mxbxff+am6nSILVpA)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF3H3@eListX.com>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF3H2@eListX.com> (original mail from dee3@torque.pothole.com) ; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G03EF3H0@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00G01EF2GZ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from torque.pothole.com ([209.94.126.195]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSO00E5GEEOU7@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by torque.pothole.com (8.8.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA04297; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:15:50 -0400 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Re: document readability In-reply-to: "Your message of Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 PDT." <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> To: David Burdett Cc: 'Don Isenor' , iotp Message-id: <200004080215.WAA04297@torque.pothole.com> X-Authentication-warning: torque.pothole.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , X-MTS: smtp Actually, as soon as the .txt RFC comes out, the ideal thing within the constraints of the RFC serious would then be to prepare a fancier .ps RFC version with variable width font, nicer figures, etc., although this would obviously be a lot of work. Donald From: David Burdett Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 -0700 To: "'Don Isenor'" , iotp Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> >Don > >I'm afraid you're out of luck. > >You correctly guess that the original is in MS Word, but everything >(headers, tables, etc) is in courier font with a non-standard paper size - >it's the only way I know of creating a document that can then be used to >generate output that can be formatted to meet the IETF requirement for plain >text. > >If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of the MS Word version please send >me an email and I'll send you a copy. > >David > >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Isenor [mailto:disenor@computer.org] >Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 4:19 PM >To: iotp >Subject: document readability > > >Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and >having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may >guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to >read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word >(or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables >of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. >Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? > >Don Isenor >Ambercon Inc. >disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X3SK@eListX.com>; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X2SJ@eListX.com> (original mail from david.burdett@commerceone.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F034X2SH@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSO00F014X2SG@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c1plenaexi02.commerceone.com ([12.22.60.1]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSO00E3R4X1U7@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by c1plenaexi02.commerceone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2M75ZGMK>; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:46:50 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:50:19 -0700 From: David Burdett Subject: RE: document readability To: 'Don Isenor' , iotp Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F5C6DDD@neptune.commerceone.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Don I'm afraid you're out of luck. You correctly guess that the original is in MS Word, but everything (headers, tables, etc) is in courier font with a non-standard paper size - it's the only way I know of creating a document that can then be used to generate output that can be formatted to meet the IETF requirement for plain text. If you (or anyone else) would like a copy of the MS Word version please send me an email and I'll send you a copy. David -----Original Message----- From: Don Isenor [mailto:disenor@computer.org] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 4:19 PM To: iotp Subject: document readability Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word (or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? Don Isenor Ambercon Inc. disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BN03A@eListX.com>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BN039@eListX.com> (original mail from disenor@computer.org); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B03BMZ37@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSM00B01BMZ36@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSM00A2VBMYIN@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from computer.org (www.ambercon-inc.com [209.250.134.123]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03933 for ; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:19:03 -0400 From: Don Isenor Subject: document readability To: iotp Message-id: <38ED1B66.4F157127@computer.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hello, I'm new here, just starting work on an IOTP implementation, and having some difficulty plowing through the specs. Plain ASCII text may guarantee maximum portability, but it makes the documents difficult to read. I suspect these documents are written and maintained in MS Word (or something similar), with bolded section headings, clickable tables of contents, etc., and are converted to ASCII text for publication. Could the MS Word versions of these documents be made available? Don Isenor Ambercon Inc. disenor@ambercon-inc.com Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWNHN@eListX.com>; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWNHM@eListX.com> (original mail from david.burdett@commerceone.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00703ZWNHK@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00701ZWMHJ@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c1plenaexi01.commerceone.com ([12.22.60.14]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSK0056IZWLQR@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 02:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by c1plenaexi01.commerceone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:10:32 -0700 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:09:11 -0700 From: David Burdett Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. To: "Michie, Alan" , "'Smith, Chris '" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Message-id: <80CB4C7E7DE1D311950600508BA5831F0102781F@neptune.commerceone.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , There is another feature as well that helps to provide security in that the Delivery Data element also contains OkFrom and OkTo date/times. If the request is received outside of these times then it is invalid and shouldn't be processed. It also means that, once the delivery handler has been paide and the OkTo date/time is passed, then the original request can be safely deleted, if the Delivery Handler has no other reason to keep it. Regards David -----Original Message----- From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:15 PM To: 'Smith, Chris ' Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, Jamie Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Chris, Thanks for the detailed and insightful reply. It was your very last sentence: " Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. " that settled the matter for me. Regards Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Smith, Chris [SMTP:CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM] > Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2000 12:38 am > To: 'Michie, Alan'; 'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd' > Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, > Jamie > Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > > > First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually > 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The > delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, > and the low-level package details in the note should > provide all the needed information. However, looking > at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. > > The Delivery Request should be signed over over the > transaction and message IDs involved, especially if > the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This > means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer > to anything but the transaction you are working on. The > Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate > requests because they refer to the same transaction id > and message id, and include the appropriate signatures > from the payment exchange. > > First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the > duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is > required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply > to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be > sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This > is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not > know the state of the customer**. The customer may have > never received the original reply, and is resending the > Delivery Request. > > The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates > at a business level. For digital delivery, this could > be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order > to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client > software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that > there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, > since they will only trigger a restart of a process > that was valid that first time it was started. For > real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even > less of a problem, since you can return the same > information (the Delivery Note details may include > shipping information, for example), but the Delivery > Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not > start a second shipping process. > > Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not > being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to > keep track of all previous delivery requests" However, > this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler > who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. > Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track > of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Chris Smith +1.416.348.6090 > Royal Bank chris.smith@royalbank.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michie, Alan [ ] > > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > ... > > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > > been involved for long enough). > > > > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > > response to a single payment response from the merchant? > ... > > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. > > > Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLNT8@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLNT7@eListX.com> (original mail from services@eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00603PLMT5@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLMT4@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eListX.com by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSK00601PLMT3@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au [202.12.144.17]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSK00533JNMQR@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA13850; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:18:14 +1000 (EST) Received: from maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au(202.12.142.17) via SMTP by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au, id smtpd0wWyAO; Thu Apr 6 10:17:29 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA01830; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:17:28 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "mail.cdn.telstra.com.au" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdozpIR_; Thu Apr 6 10:15:56 2000 Received: from ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au (ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au [192.168.174.24]) by mail.cdn.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA29429; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:55 +1000 (EST) Received: by ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2KZQ10R4>; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:28 +1000 Resent-date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:15:17 +1000 From: "Michie, Alan" Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Sender: services@eListX.com To: "'Smith, Chris '" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Resent-message-id: <0FSK00602PLMT4@eListX.com> Message-id: <2F2C4AFACA58D21186090008C724838902925CA2@ntmsg0022.corpmail.telstra.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Chris, Thanks for the detailed and insightful reply. It was your very last sentence: " Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. " that settled the matter for me. Regards Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Smith, Chris [SMTP:CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM] > Sent: Thursday, 6 April 2000 12:38 am > To: 'Michie, Alan'; 'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd' > Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Chauhan, Ankush; Booker, Graeme; Chard, > Jamie > Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > > > First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually > 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The > delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, > and the low-level package details in the note should > provide all the needed information. However, looking > at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. > > The Delivery Request should be signed over over the > transaction and message IDs involved, especially if > the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This > means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer > to anything but the transaction you are working on. The > Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate > requests because they refer to the same transaction id > and message id, and include the appropriate signatures > from the payment exchange. > > First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the > duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is > required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply > to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be > sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This > is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not > know the state of the customer**. The customer may have > never received the original reply, and is resending the > Delivery Request. > > The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates > at a business level. For digital delivery, this could > be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order > to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client > software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that > there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, > since they will only trigger a restart of a process > that was valid that first time it was started. For > real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even > less of a problem, since you can return the same > information (the Delivery Note details may include > shipping information, for example), but the Delivery > Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not > start a second shipping process. > > Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not > being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to > keep track of all previous delivery requests" However, > this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler > who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. > Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track > of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Chris Smith +1.416.348.6090 > Royal Bank chris.smith@royalbank.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michie, Alan [ ] > > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. > ... > > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > > been involved for long enough). > > > > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > > response to a single payment response from the merchant? > ... > > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. > > > Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SSA96@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:40:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SS995@eListX.com> (original mail from CHRIS.SMITH@ROYALBANK.COM) ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00403SS993@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00401SS992@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.royalbank.com (smtp2.royalbank.com [198.96.131.29]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with SMTP id <0FSJ0008RSS8NV@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wsecure4.royalbank.com by smtp2.royalbank.com via smtpd (for one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) with SMTP; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:38:08 +0000 (UT) Received: from 10.224.0.67 by se001018.royalbank.com with ESMTP ( WorldSecure Server SMTP Relay(WSS) v3.6.2); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:40 -0400 Received: by se001017.royalbank.com with Internet Mail Service ( 5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:37:38 -0400 From: "Smith, Chris " Subject: RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. To: "'Michie, Alan'" , "'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd'" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Message-id: <2B30A9965635D311A29F002035297FFB04615430@se001010.rbc1.royalbank.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ)" X-Server-Uuid: 69f58f12-9d1a-11d3-825a-00609455ee28 X-WSS-ID: 14F5903E571342-01-01 List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually 'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished, and the low-level package details in the note should provide all the needed information. However, looking at the response may be one step too far, at least initially. The Delivery Request should be signed over over the transaction and message IDs involved, especially if the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer to anything but the transaction you are working on. The Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate requests because they refer to the same transaction id and message id, and include the appropriate signatures from the payment exchange. First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not know the state of the customer**. The customer may have never received the original reply, and is resending the Delivery Request. The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates at a business level. For digital delivery, this could be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests, since they will only trigger a restart of a process that was valid that first time it was started. For real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even less of a problem, since you can return the same information (the Delivery Note details may include shipping information, for example), but the Delivery Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not start a second shipping process. Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests". However, this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange. Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant. ------------------------------------------------------------=20 =A0Chris = Smith=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 +1.416.348.6090=20 =A0Royal = Bank=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = chris.smith@royalbank.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com] > Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. ... > Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating > IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security > hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't > been involved for long enough). >=20 > It involves the general case where the delivery handler and > the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a > consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in > response to a single payment response from the merchant? ... > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery > handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. > Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. >=20 --Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT RE: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording.

First it is worth noting that IOTP will not usually
'deliver' the final goods/service/product. The
delivery note specifies how this is to be accomplished,
and the low-level package details in the note should
provide all the needed information. However, looking
at the response may be one step too far, at least initially.

The Delivery Request should be signed over over the
transaction and message IDs involved, especially if
the delivery handler and merchant are separate. This
means that you cannot create a Delivery Request to refer
to anything but the transaction you are working on. The
Delivery Handler can therefore identify duplicate
requests because they refer to the same transaction id
and message id, and include the appropriate signatures
from the payment exchange.

First, given that the Delivery Handler can identify the
duplicate requests, there is no security hole. What is
required is that the Delivery Handler appropriately reply
to the duplicate requests. In many cases, it should be
sufficient to send the original Delivery Response. This
is also wise, because the Delivery Handler **does not
know the state of the customer**. The customer may have
never received the original reply, and is resending the
Delivery Request.

The remaining question is how to handle the duplicates
at a business level. For digital delivery, this could
be accomplished using the MIME typing features, in order
to trigger a browser, or other equivalent client
software. In such a case, it is not clear to me that
there is a problem with multiple Delivery Requests,
since they will only trigger a restart of a process
that was valid that first time it was started. For
real-world delivery, I would suggest there is even
less of a problem, since you can return the same
information (the Delivery Note details may include
shipping information, for example), but the Delivery
Handler, having noted the duplicate already, does not
start a second shipping process.

Now, I realize this violates your constraint of not
being "reasonable to expect the delivery handler to
keep track of all previous delivery requests". However,
this is already a requirement for a Delivery Handler
who wishes to reasonably take part in any IOTP exchange.
Also, the Delivery Handler will also be keeping track
of the requests anyway in order to be paid by the merchant.

------------------------------------------------------------
 Chris Smith                                +1.416.348.6090
 Royal Bank                       chris.smith@royalbank.com



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michie, Alan [mailto:Alan.Michie@team.telstra.com]
> Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording.
...
> Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating
> IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security
> hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't
> been involved for long enough).
>
> It involves the general case where the delivery handler and
> the merchant are separate entities.  What is to stop a
> consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in
> response to a single payment response from the merchant?
...
> I don't think it is reasonable to expect the  delivery
> handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests.
> Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers.
>

--Boundary_(ID_aBtjQt6mwjrypwwDTuaOsQ)-- Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORTMD@eListX.com>; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORTMC@eListX.com> (original mail from services@eListX.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00303ORTMA@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORSM9@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eListX.com by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSJ00301ORSM8@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au [202.12.144.17]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSJ0006XN40NV@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA04734; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:34:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au(202.12.142.17) via SMTP by mailo.vtcif.telstra.com.au, id smtpdCz9rP_; Wed Apr 5 22:34:03 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by maili.vtcif.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA00581; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:34:01 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "mail.cdn.telstra.com.au" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpd0_J9zL; Wed Apr 5 22:29:22 2000 Received: from ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au (ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au [192.168.174.24]) by mail.cdn.telstra.com.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10466; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:29:20 +1000 (EST) Received: by ntmsg0028.corpmail.telstra.com.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <2KZQ1N8K>; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:28:54 +1000 Resent-date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:36:05 +1000 From: "Michie, Alan" Subject: Suggestion for clarification of IOTP spec wording. Sender: services@eListX.com To: "'Donald E. Eastlake 3rd'" Cc: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, "Chauhan, Ankush" , "Booker, Graeme" , "Chard, Jamie" Resent-message-id: <0FSJ00302ORSM9@eListX.com> Message-id: <2F2C4AFACA58D21186090008C724838902925C9F@ntmsg0022.corpmail.telstra.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hello Donald, It was good to meet you at IETF 47. Sorry I couldn't stay past Tuesday and be present for the IOTP session. To Donald or anyone else who knows the answer Since getting back from IETF 47, I have been investigating IOTP in more detail and have come across a potential security hole (or a potentially embarrassing question because I haven't been involved for long enough). It involves the general case where the delivery handler and the merchant are separate entities. What is to stop a consumer from issuing multiple delivery requests in response to a single payment response from the merchant? I don't think it is reasonable to expect the delivery handler to keep track of all previous delivery requests. Section 9.1.4 of the IOTP spec refers. What do you think? Regards, Alan Alan Michie Project Leader Telstra Research Laboratories. +61 2 8255 3085 Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZM33@eListX.com>; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 02:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZM32@eListX.com> (original mail from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) ; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F03FZL30@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSF00F01FZL2Z@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp (tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp [192.68.248.40]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSF00E1SFZI0N@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nttmail.ecl.ntt.co.jp (nttmail.tas.ntt.co.jp [192.68.248.11]) by tama3.tas.ntt.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/01/21/00) with ESMTP id PAA21691; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:24 +0900 (JST envelope-from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) Received: from renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp by nttmail.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/03/09/00) with ESMTP id PAA02303; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:21 +0900 (JST envelope-from fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) Received: from renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp by renoir.isl.ntt.co.jp (8.8.8/isl-2.0) id PAA20522; Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:18 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:10:18 +0900 From: Ko Fujimura Subject: Re: Draft Adelaide Minutes In-reply-to: "In your message of Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500" <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com, lde008@dma.isg.mot.com, dee3@torque.pothole.com Cc: fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 (generated by REMI 1.14.0 - "Uragawara") Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII User-Agent: REMI/1.14.0 (Uragawara) CLIME/1.13.6 (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ2YlTj4xGyhC?=) APEL/10.1 MULE XEmacs/21.2 (beta31) (Iris) (sparc-sun-solaris2.6) References: <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hi Don and Andrew, Thank you very much for making the excellent minute. I have no comments on it. At Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500, Donald E. Eastlake 3rd wrote: > Presented by Ko Fujimura (fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) > [Expect to post slides to the list soon.] I put the slides on the following location: http://info.isl.ntt.co.jp/flexticket/ietf/trade-drt-47.ppt Regards, Ko Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NG1I@eListX.com>; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 09:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NF1H@eListX.com> (original mail from kcwong@cs.ust.hk); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C034NF1F@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSE00C014NF1E@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com); Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cssvr17.cs.ust.hk (cssvr17.cs.ust.hk [143.89.41.167]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSE0093F4NDR4@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Sun, 02 Apr 2000 09:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imz010 (imz010.ust.hk [143.89.56.10]) by cssvr17.cs.ust.hk (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id e32D8Z623556; Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:08:35 +0800 (HKT) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:12:35 +0800 From: Wong Ka Cheong Subject: Question on Delivery Request To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Cc: Andre Chan , Bobby Tam Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Full-name: Wong Ka Cheong List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , Hi, I am studing on IOTP. I have a question on Delivery Request. Q1. In ur spec., u says copy following component from the Offer Response Block: Status Component Order Component Organisation Component Delivery Component However, in Offer Reponse, there is not required Organisation Component. How can we copy on it. Q2. In creating TPO Block, u says need Organisation Component. It required Merchant Consumer and Payment Handler(s). When consumer want to buy something on IOTP, is it required to get the consumer information before transaction, otherwise, we havent consumer to create TPO Block. Thanks Return-Path: Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIGY0@eListX.com>; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 14:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIGXZ@eListX.com> (original mail from lde008@dma.isg.mot.com) ; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ELISTS-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00803SIFXX@eListX.com> for ietf-trade-1104-outbound@reprocess.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIRECTORY-DAEMON by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) id <0FSC00801SIFXW@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@elists.eListX.com (ORCPT rfc822;ietf-trade@lists.elistx.com); Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by eListX.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #43584) with ESMTP id <0FSC00568SIEJG@eListX.com> for ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA14072; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:48:55 -0700 (MST) Received: [from noah.dma.isg.mot.com (noah.dma.isg.mot.com [150.21.2.29]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA21704; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 12:48:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from dma.isg.mot.com (nrlab-10.dma.isg.mot.com [150.21.50.48]) by noah.dma.isg.mot.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09189; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:48:54 -0500 From: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" Subject: Draft Adelaide Minutes To: ietf-trade@lists.eListX.com Cc: dee3@torque.pothole.com Message-id: <200004011948.OAA09189@noah.dma.isg.mot.com> List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: List-Archive: List-Help: , 47th IETF Meeting, Adelaide Australia TRADE WG Wednesday, March 29th, 2000 [Notes by Andrew Drapp, edited by Donald Eastlake.] AGENDA: Agenda Bashing Status of Documents Implementation News Digital Rights Trading Charter update Future Meetings AGENDA BASHING Don presented the Agenda and asked if anyone had anything to add. Nobody had anything to add. STATUS OF DOCUMENTS The 3 main documents have been in the RFC editor's queue since last November. draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-protocol-07 draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-dsig-05 draft-ietf-trade--hiroshi-dom-hash-03 One problem is because the size of the largest is 276 pages. Currently the editor is on page 207. 2 documents revised recently and will be moved to WG last call status very soon after a further minor revision. draft-ietf-trade-iotp-http-04 draft-ietf-trade-mime-detector-02 SET and Payment API documents recently posted as drafts by Yoshiaki Kawatsura: draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-set-00 draft-ietf-trade-iotp-v1.0-papi-00 Kawatsura reports that Werner Hans of SIZ is the author of Payment API, and he will be revising the document within the next month. The current SET document (00) is based on IOTP v0.99, and a new version will be released a month after the new Payment API is released. The new document will include input from SETCo and the SMILE project. SCCD draft not yet posted. Digital Rights Trading (new work by Ko Fujimura) to be presented today. draft-ietf-trade-dtr-requirements-00 XML messaging (new work see charter discussion): draft-ietf-trade-xmlmsg-requirements-00 XML messaging is a generic form of communicating between various partners, in a dynamic order based on IOTP's request/exchange/response format. If this should be continued within the trade WG will be discussed later during the charter discussion. Future documents: No documents yet. IOTP v2.0 ECML v2.0 Someone asked for more information on ECML, and Don explained that ECML is a standardized method for identifying fields in HTML. In the simplest case, an ECML wallet would help to fill out forms automatically. ECML v1.0 is out as an informational RFC. Someone else asked how ECML relates to P3P. Don explained that P3P is just =a schema, and used as a way of imputing privacy preferences. ECML has a smaller area of focus. The ECML consortium is working on a version v1.1. Currently v1.0 and v1.1 are a one-way protocols, and do not allow for merchant to consumer type communications. HTTP/HTTP HTTP Supplement specifies the Application/IOTP MIME type, with /X-IOTP for backwards compatibility. Discussion on the IETF-Types mail list indicates that an optional charset parameter should be added, and Done plans on adding that shortly if there are no objections it will be added. There was a lot of discussion on IETF-Types if the MIME type should be changed to Application/IOTP-XML. Eventually new XML encoded type will probably be changed to end in "-xml", but as of now, no change is expected from Application/IOTP. IMPLEMENTATION NEWS Hitachi, et al, SMILE Royal Bank of Canada SIZ CyberSource Differential Xenosys Corporation PayByCheck.com Brokat SMILE- to go into In house trials in June, with full trials later. RBC - Implemented v0.9 in its teller system, will do v1.0 SIZ - Unknown ...(note taker fell behind, sorry)... DIGITAL RIGHTS TRADING Presented by Ko Fujimura (fujimura@isl.ntt.co.jp) [Expect to post slides to the list soon.] Ko Fujimura explained how Digital Rights (DR), a sort of Digital Claim Ticket, or Digital Bearer Instrument can be exchanged or traded. Rights in this case do not refer to IP rights, but instead the right to claim goods or services. A requirements document has been released, but there have been few comments on it yet. The relationship to IOTP is that a DR could be used as a payment method (gift certificate, coupon, etc) or it could be used as a deliverable (ticket), or a different role of Loyalty Handler could be created to issue or collect Loyalty points. Ko Fujimura plans on publishing the requirements document as an informational RFC. He plans to clarify the relationship with IOTP and include any relevant comments from others. Afterwards, he would to start work on a specification, and he needs volunteers to help work on it. Q&A (I'm sorry I don't know anyone's names) Q: The name is a bit confusing with IP rights. A: Agreed Q: Could the system be generalized as a type of e-Cash. A: It may be possible in the strictest sense of gift certificates or frequent flyer miles. But could be difficult for other types, (percentage off, tickets, etc.) Q: Can you make a backup of DRs, as you can with Digicash? A: Depends on the DR type, and DR Trading System (DRTS) that is implemented. Basically, Merchants can design their own DRs (with their own rules) that can be incorporated in a more generic DRTS. Q: Could it be split up into more specific roles. So, involved parties could focus on the only area they are interested. For example, coupons and frequent flyer miles are an inherently different type of item, with different companies being involved, with little overlap. A: It could be split up, but Fujimura at this point has not noticed anybody else offering to write such specs or systems, so as long as he is basically working on it by himself, he would prefer to keep it as one item. Q: Could you link or change rights from one type to another? A: Don explains that this is very similar to an exchange type transaction already supported in IOTP. Q: What is the difference of a DR versus a currency. A: There is not too much difference but there is some, as in tickets (with a seat number or specific show, after which it becomes worthless). Q: Is there a loyalty component in ECML, such as for a membership number? A: No, none in version 1.0 or 1.1, but it could be included in version 2.0. CHARTER UPDATE New Charter submitted to Area Director after last IETF meeting, but has not yet been approved. Review of changes to charter: Notes completion of IOTP v1.0, adjusted milestones, split IOTP into v2.0 into XML messaging layer, and trading specific portions, add EXML 2.0 and Digital Trading requirements. Multiple interested venues for XML messaging - -Trade WG, EDIINT WG, ebXML, BLOCKS BoF, B2BXML BoF Should XML messaging be included in TRADE WG, or moved to a different location? Should we change the charter and drop the XML messaging? Consensus in favor of dropping XML messaging from the TRADE WG. A copy of the new proposed charter will be posted shortly? FUTURE MEETINGS Next IETF Meeting Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. July 31 - August 4