From nobody Mon Jun 1 04:45:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D111A0451 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 04:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pYu_atuSRQXQ for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 04:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E001A03FF for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 04:45:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3761; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1433159110; x=1434368710; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=AzQ8B42gz/ONFNF5dZ4VKtY+fqIX8qYlSL4zEh5VvFo=; b=fzHD5x0d08aS/FxfgRVE+sLN0dLEYWmHa8dZvnPvMaczqoJd43fJqv07 +jc0G/NteC4169s8e4bRHyx9KxAoiFAvtA1+m7ZpMwXjvyrNdUrqq0E0l heWBbptPXkI0zV8kD77Ej6PVnVF9DkduO/CPMyI0Zh9ac5DzTOy8kbHCX I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D9AwBhRWxV/4gNJK1cgxBUXga+UgmBUAyFdQKBLDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCIBAQEDAQEBAWsJAgULAgEIGC4nCyUCBA4FG4gKCA3VcwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEi0OENAEBBRgzB4MXgRYFkwqENYZdgSmDcYo4h2AjgjuBPW+BDDqBAQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,532,1427760000"; d="scan'208";a="3472768" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2015 11:45:09 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com [173.37.183.80]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t51Bj9AB002772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:45:09 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.183]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 06:45:09 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: tram mailing list Thread-Topic: [tram] New Version Notification for draft-martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHQmkdrgXRENHW01USOdMRgLsRA9p2X4BKA Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 11:45:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150529073527.26598.5829.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78A18252-A24A-49C6-8AB1-53DA1BC900CF@cisco.com> <55687E64.8000204@jive.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.215.200] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <09C2C8191CD8C749B8C7A74E4398B13E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Simon Perreault , "Gonzalo Salgueiro \(gsalguei\)" Subject: Re: [tram] New Version Notification for draft-martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 11:45:12 -0000 > On 29 May 2015, at 21:41, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On May 29, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Simon Perreault wrot= e: >>=20 >> Le 2015-05-29 07:31, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) a =E9crit : >>> It is s a simple draft describing how a client can utilise a TURN serve= r >>> to measure available bandwidth by sending traffic to itself through the >>> turn server. No TURN server modifications are needed.=20 >>=20 >> Cool! I can see this being useful. >=20 > Our thoughts exactly ;-) >=20 >> I think it would be worth mentioning that the client is in theory free >> to use any format for the payload, but in practice using STUN makes it >> possible to multiplex with existing traffic. So a client that doesn't >> need multiplexing could do away with all the STUN complexity and just >> use a home-grown, simple format. This may seem obvious but it still took >> me a good 5 minutes of head scratching to figure out. >=20 > Good point. We=92ll update the draft clarifying this. In section 4.3 the draft says: The specific calculation and measurement of the bandwidth is client dependent and implementation-specific and is thus outside the scope of this document. If the client want to use STUN packets as the basis for the probing packets, then a TIMESTAMP attribute is defined in this specification (see Section Section 6.1) to simplify measurement of round-trip time (RTT) and available bandwidth. A PADDING attribute is already defined in RFC 5780 [RFC5780] that makes it easy to vary the size of the STUN probing packet. The intention was to make it clear that STUN usage for the probe is optiona= l. But I do agree. Adding some generic text in the introduction and Early in S= ection 4 would make that more obvious. Some feedback from the WG regarding document complexity would be nice. I th= ink we have two options, move it in a simpler direction with only the basic= bits in it. Or move in a more complex direction describing how bandwidth c= an be measured and how probes should look like and so on. (Consider this as= a agenda request for Prague.) >=20 >>> The three drafts >>> - PMTUD using >>> STUN(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-petithuguenin-tram-stun-pmtud) >>> - STUN Traceroute >>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martinsen-tram-stuntrace) >>> - TURN Bandwidth (The draft in this mail) >>> (https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-martinsen-tram-turnbandwidt= hprobe) >>>=20 >>> form a simple solution to probe the network for useful information >>> without requiring any change to the network infrastructure.=20 >>=20 >> This is starting to look like... *gasp*... a framework! ;) >=20 > This is our intent. We=92d like the WG to consider their usefulness and e= ntertain the possibility of adopting these as WG documents (obviously with = associated milestones created). >=20 A thought=85 (Maybe not a good one so please feel free to shoot it down bef= ore it evolves) Can we keep the content of the three drafts (PMTUD, STUNTrace and TURN BW P= robe) as simple as we can with only basic functionality described, and then= have a draft-tram-probe-framework describing how various probing technique= s can be combined and safely used. The framework draft could have all the n= asty details regarding timers, how often things should be done and so on. I= dea is to have a set of simple drafts that does not change so much over tim= e, but usage of them might.=20 .-. P=E5l-Erik > Cheers, >=20 > Gonzalo >=20 >>=20 >> Simon >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 From nobody Mon Jun 1 05:08:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EEF41A1A9E for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:08:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2q8erb00fvB6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 462E41A1A99 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:08:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14914; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1433160486; x=1434370086; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:mime-version; bh=9f/VhSqvvtz1yvrdg7nP7Zgl0zy7kCcdf40q6vjrBO0=; b=Me2EPcQ1HZ1vzjjZ7ZeTv7ohvqiMBeQ+wOu6BhcMs8gcS2Io3JZDWjae AibIBVwibClH1L9FagB9toad7sCxuYZhEZ7qUHd2ov8Mmc8yZmPUj3X6U ahdYnS4Tgn904uKeeOBcvUM6/GKaT9fkFTWjtyd279cuaovUTYiWiEWJ0 Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DeBAB/SmxV/5xdJa1cgxBUXgaDGLsQKgmBXIV1AhyBEDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCIBAQEEI1QSAgEZAwECKAMCAgIwFAMBAwIIAgQTiC0NslOjMAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReLQ4Q7CScKDQoHgmIvgRYFi1WEeYI8hDWGXYEpPoMzgn+PGSODeG8BgQRBgQEBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,532,1427760000"; d="scan'208,217";a="155297384" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2015 12:08:05 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com [173.37.183.83]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t51C85i9019749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 12:08:05 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([169.254.6.183]) by xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([173.37.183.83]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 07:08:05 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: tram mailing list Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-martinsen-tram-stuntrace-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHQnFdWRVNgd8lmVEqqjhpBz2TXkA== Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 12:08:04 +0000 Message-ID: <1FACA00C-B837-428A-B957-A0913F9497FE@cisco.com> References: <20150601104008.21075.25680.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.61.215.200] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FACA00CB837428AB957A0913F9497FEciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-martinsen-tram-stuntrace-01.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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[127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1C31A92F0 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:45:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3I4lFyIMCvJU for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9850D1A92EB for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 05:45:35 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f799f6d000000faf-1c-556c53edd5c6 Received: from ESESSHC022.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B5.48.04015.DE35C655; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:45:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.210.2; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:45:33 +0200 Message-ID: <556C53EC.5030009@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2015 14:45:32 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Perreault , "tram@ietf.org" References: <5554E1B9.5090201@jive.com> In-Reply-To: <5554E1B9.5090201@jive.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvre7b4JxQg283dSyuXwm1+LD2ApsD k8eSJT+ZPP7NecocwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlfHx3yrmgjvKFS/79zE3ML6U6WLk5JAQMJGY d7SBGcIWk7hwbz1bFyMXh5DAUUaJ+bNOMUI4yxgllmz7zghSxSugLfF1xgOwDhYBFYlrk7rZ QWw2AQuJmz8a2UBsUYEoiamP17FA1AtKnJz5BMwWEfCS+NbbDTZHWMBS4vCWQ2C9QgLqEt+3 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 12:45:38 -0000 Simon, I see some significant dangers to privacy with this trend. I think it is very important that we don't motivate that this is correct in an WebRTC context, just because ICE/STUN/TURN was designed in a particular way because it needed to work with SIP. Lets look at the privacy implications of using a single STUN/TURN provider in your UA that overrides the web service's own STUN/TURN servers. That means that these configured STUN/TURN servers will see all the cases where you establish a PeerConnection and what destinations on the media plane. Thus, this STUN/TURN provider will get a very complete picture of what you do and who you communicate with. This means trusting an additional part with information of the users behaviours. Lets compare this with a case if one only uses the Web service's STUN and TURN servers. In that case, the Web Services already knows about who you are communicating within the web application due to its role as find and connection provider. However, it only knows what you are doing within that single application. When you switch tab and use another service the first has no view into what you are doing here. Thus, an important separation of concerns is established. I do understand that there are use cases where it is important or even mandated for one's organization or employer to know who one communicates with and thus there are a strong need to enable this local configuration. However, I think it is important this do not occur automatically without the user's knowledge. It is after all a question of trust. For your final question about binding STUN authentication to the session. What I think is important is that one have to accept is that the cost must be possible to place on the one that creates the cost. Thus, the web service must be able to limit the usage of their STUN/TURN service to usage related to their service. Cheers Magnus Westerlund Simon Perreault skrev den 2015-05-14 19:56: > TRAMsters, > > I think it is important, in order to make STUN's authentication model > clearer in the face of WebRTC usage, that we start re-emphasizing that > the endpoint is in control of its own NAT traversal, independent of call > signalling. This is a core design principle of STUN/TURN/ICE. > > ======================= > > Exhibit A: > > This is a freely-available STUN/TURN server. You just sign up for an > account and start using it with whatever signalling infrastructure you > want. With SIP, just configure the server address, username, and > password into your SIP client and you're ready to go. With WebRTC you > can do the same by configuring those into your browser, which should > override any application-provided servers. > > Notice that the endpoint is fully in charge of its own destiny. It has a > relationship with the server, but the signalling infrastructure does not. > > With this use-case the IP addresses on which the server listens are > dedicated to the public service. ORIGIN would be useful in order to > co-locate the public service with some class of private services > (different auth database) without dedicating new IP addresses for each > private service. > > ======================== > > Exhibit B: > > RETURN is a way for WebRTC endpoints, browsers in particular, to force > usage of a particular TURN server, with which the endpoint has a prior > trust relationship, in order to ensure some level of privacy for the > endpoint. A second layer of non-privacy-providing TURN may be used in > order to provide NAT traversal. > > In this case too the endpoint is fully in control. The signalling > infrastructure (i.e., the WebRTC application) has no relationship with > the privacy-providing TURN server, and no control over it. > > ======================== > > What I'm getting at is that trying to bind STUN auth with the signalling > session goes against STUN/TURN/ICE design. > -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jun 4 05:34:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFB71B3296 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 05:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KCTJ17wzi-3 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 05:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f176.google.com (mail-qk0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B3AF1B3277 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 05:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkhq76 with SMTP id q76so22745506qkh.2 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:34:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=apyS6joQS5gszbDCNhM3z6ATrgdoEeQ8SE0Pn/JXAN8=; b=XHYxgKb0lF8iB7lX4G7J5tUjfOwyuPX++s9q7quUddeb/iwjiZfPLH83HXlJlMe2PX tIDYEeIr7HG6d+uidbB3WfxmlCR9muWQmzcAaGOV+SWPLdp9HtsAXl2T8dGw+Hcvvggi YH+9wo5D6B0PXdQ0cmonFl/KriNYqq0rZwdET8XeO+iPGJILsIj12WACq+mA/U6p6TRi zePXby4Ve5lp8SHdYSnaXs/qnNsaCLFlmrIjk7bmtW0deMjZC8ARmawoMMEkctPMus8o pQYJ5+WHjGz6WZvNGYmTAb44aWt6rEAFhaTVW0QLBvP6/cU7qYiqLD0CY/lTA4ES8xot nNLw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn0n9bd/HrskmkeWvF4l10DsfSgysK77WOdjqiEBVBvHOuFY7n9T4CJ4/f/FQ67wNRqUCiH X-Received: by 10.140.48.103 with SMTP id n94mr42263162qga.8.1433421252665; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.44] ([24.53.47.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 34sm2285943qkr.47.2015.06.04.05.34.10 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <557045C1.4080102@jive.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:34:09 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , tram mailing list References: <20150529073527.26598.5829.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <78A18252-A24A-49C6-8AB1-53DA1BC900CF@cisco.com> <55687E64.8000204@jive.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "Gonzalo Salgueiro \(gsalguei\)" Subject: Re: [tram] New Version Notification for draft-martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 12:34:24 -0000 Le 2015-06-01 07:45, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) a écrit : > (Consider this as a agenda request for Prague.) ACK. > Can we keep the content of the three drafts (PMTUD, STUNTrace and > TURN BW Probe) as simple as we can with only basic functionality > described, and then have a draft-tram-probe-framework describing how > various probing techniques can be combined and safely used. The > framework draft could have all the nasty details regarding timers, > how often things should be done and so on. Idea is to have a set of > simple drafts that does not change so much over time, but usage of > them might. You know what, I think I would prefer a single document for everything. But that's just my personal preference, so it doesn't carry much weight. I'd like to know what others think. Simon From nobody Fri Jun 5 07:46:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862E91A8853 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 07:46:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0JlbGuEThzp for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f177.google.com (mail-ob0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 476051A884C for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obbir4 with SMTP id ir4so13627075obb.1 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2015 07:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Z3pM2naIkZtpRtIEHJeUSRog4uwNBOFMu8EjgbH1Wkk=; b=dvbvB7poT8gR4TwZG4tmv61+897AFr907lembcW16cudPJS6WHSc3NV62jaOIyd1UT urOb3cVNiqscPOVR237FCUh/AZCQjvnwmlksgvfFR78vlcStD7+im4uNSugdTfoAOtm4 oAtYrR0vYxmo23zp9vApM28rr14ZuFEqqML+LUZGtjzGhJ2voPSf+nCZTD1Wit7p0JdR E5lRbBgm3FdfDR4ljgYFDN88wdjQXtlYm4JN6yUnFKBSSyD+p9Ue4VX57+SNOzDjOHYA SjL1Gtzf+WKKPSCiuHJYuvvl6Y5m3tUPmlHx2BRlkxBbyaqegU5HNC22lWXXc5+OhLQp Vr6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl0dRyo6ChPCCLqp+bBSDO2O7K8vnfq+3hMgogCUEA5uYsM9nix5qvhDO+v7Xz2bT4+wBeg X-Received: by 10.60.93.42 with SMTP id cr10mr3278675oeb.74.1433515560492; Fri, 05 Jun 2015 07:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Simons-MacBook-Air.local ([24.53.47.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id j1sm3680892obj.19.2015.06.05.07.45.58 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jun 2015 07:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5571B625.9020905@jive.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 10:45:57 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "tram@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] WGLC draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 14:46:02 -0000 TRAMsters, This email initiates a two-week working-group last call on this draft: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ Please read it now. Substantial comments should be addressed to the group. Nits should be sent directly to the authors. Thanks, Simon & Gonzalo From nobody Tue Jun 9 08:14:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F601A8879; Tue, 9 Jun 2015 08:14:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gaAs2GclbHpr; Tue, 9 Jun 2015 08:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459D71A8883; Tue, 9 Jun 2015 08:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150609151420.2227.19237.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 08:14:20 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram mailing list , tram chair , RFC Editor Subject: [tram] Protocol Action: 'Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Extension for Third Party Authorization' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-tram-turn-third-party-authz-16.txt) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 15:14:23 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Extension for Third Party Authorization' (draft-ietf-tram-turn-third-party-authz-16.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Spencer Dawkins and Martin Stiemerling. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-third-party-authz/ Technical Summary This document proposes the use of OAuth to obtain and validate ephemeral tokens that can be used for Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) authentication. The usage of ephemeral tokens ensure that access to a STUN server can be controlled even if the tokens are compromised. Working Group Summary This document proposes the use of OAuth to obtain and validate ephemeral tokens that can be used for Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) authentication. The usage of ephemeral tokens ensure that access to a STUN server can be controlled even if the tokens are compromised. Document Quality There are implementations of this draft. For example, coturn, which is an open source implementation of TURN and STUN, includes this functionality. The IANA Considerations section registers two STUN attributes and seems to be consistent with the body of the document. Personnel Gonzalo Camarillo is the document shepherd. Spencer Dawkins is the responsible Area director. From nobody Fri Jun 26 12:09:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D2971AC3E7 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPPjAzN-tx19 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-f178.google.com (mail-qc0-f178.google.com [209.85.216.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B8F31AC3DC for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcmc1 with SMTP id c1so32198318qcm.2 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=N1zd+70FW8Wec/3k/CsdxEPwAR6U1TgO3R57PZQ0KQU=; b=CsSvNB2wuY/KEEIbcFG2yFq7sLcCWDOA2gip3eTUZiMPOZ1w2A3cdHvVb0uU1tgUjy oIEsZh5cQy5IgHJ5gB+KtMcGnBe3PQP5HL/C8D/KnTkosa9DIua3qcLw9q3XtNosv4ym m6oCxzNXccDIm1WDhiiiGYOV8egVJ9esOnhMNcPSpf+oTuFjFBty3gTkFmDHYqe0NsdL qTckg4qcS3gf027pQPl8iXlp8aBwxNXTo9d//b/1yNBzULF8tnO0VWAiVPSGvRlqpNfk VmKUALsgE5WTS5YKkzjl82HWmaMnpKY5nyMMKnjBwxnBKzvLismLUXea6wHUhVE7myRV XyAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQksC3D4SPH4rBNe3emUxmbOlBU5lQR2uFhSz5aPsl6XatZRPeDLN81/DVhoef92+M20aXEI X-Received: by 10.55.15.129 with SMTP id 1mr7529486qkp.29.1435345740309; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.44] ([24.53.47.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d10sm7293495qhc.9.2015.06.26.12.08.58 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <558DA349.2020300@jive.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:08:57 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "tram@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery@tools.ietf.org References: <5571B625.9020905@jive.com> In-Reply-To: <5571B625.9020905@jive.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] WGLC draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:09:02 -0000 Le 2015-06-05 10:45, Simon Perreault a écrit : > This email initiates a two-week working-group last call on this draft: > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ I meant to send this a week ago... The WGLC is now over. Authors, please respond to Ted Hardie's comments. I don't see any blocker in those comments but I suppose a new revision will be needed to address them fully. Once that is published we will initiate procedures with IESG. Thanks, Simon From nobody Fri Jun 26 12:17:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93741AC3EA for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gdjd3nPLNQN4 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-f173.google.com (mail-qk0-f173.google.com [209.85.220.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B800C1AC3CA for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkei195 with SMTP id i195so21659589qke.3 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=M5wHTvNbbyPLgQBh21IToO0ZnZGVfrsoxUfr9exj5wc=; b=iQcc2YucZEVozZJwRHBYBpGctgGhca1o63GsCNfr/Gcgk7riHG2SoIQtfQA6pQUPh9 QUehN57+eyNS0LHWFUCj9xdcN08LDJaVyXoTC+X3dNOzgcr+MAwEwg1Hfs2cUhsYzk56 DToVaDSXsJ8D/bUZqpkdFxuR+NhNzzIiTqs0WYZNLfAP9Mho/+XIGd1MG+WJa+a0TLol 2zXs6VSK64/WYrj92us2qctO19rWBcrTsufZfVpvKNYIPxc6FgY6oK4/Mfekc7CbkR4V vij5NsWq6jnHoCWmXX2nyr/JmcCthE/i/awmYyoDrpLzlF7VEMVqPlgb+kPRWaXIVHrB jBbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlVHsPlkicoyJyIhGliypmktrgm0lgw8RbngTiVex5cpuMElaLw6QpWxTI58lAfpcfvyYXk X-Received: by 10.140.97.72 with SMTP id l66mr4427170qge.103.1435346223973; Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.44] ([24.53.47.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id i7sm7374037qge.32.2015.06.26.12.17.02 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <558DA52D.9000408@jive.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:17:01 -0400 From: Simon Perreault User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "tram@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] TRAM agenda requests X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2015 19:17:06 -0000 TRAMsters, We have a two-hour slot at IETF 93 in Prague. If you would like to be on the agenda, please send your request to . Thanks, Simon & Gonzalo