From nobody Fri Oct 2 22:50:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E181ACD38 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_72=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RXYzfno6C12t for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BF9E1ACD37 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2015 22:50:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9234; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1443851426; x=1445061026; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Co7n95jcETaG1aaFeg6XGxfCXEeKPbGiCv0itnD0sB0=; b=dNgg+yh5SmcPvPwHjHnhfP08RSPVJyBlzbtB5dWNcFUbQ1otPi0PbbmJ LuXbN2xuururFiyJWvV5T1O8+jZi0eraEedpL26yv7JPT4QwastkeUNr3 P/E3X6240pt0gizQKmF1fsLYaGSk9vaoamKz2QdDW12fOJ4LhV8Gwtl1O I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0A+AgBDbA9W/51dJa1egydUbga+AQENgXEKhXkCHIEOOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJAEBAQQBAQExOhcEAgEIEQMBAQEFIwUCAiULFAkIAgQBEoguDZkHnSQGlEMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXgRyFWIR9hCoRAQYwIgaCXYFJBZJJgzMBhRaCb4URgVZHg3GDI5IxAR8BAUKCER2BVHGLSDqBBgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,627,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="37992253" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Oct 2015 05:50:00 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-018.cisco.com (xch-rtp-018.cisco.com [64.101.220.158]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t935o08Q023118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:50:00 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-017.cisco.com (64.101.220.157) by XCH-RTP-018.cisco.com (64.101.220.158) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 01:49:59 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-017.cisco.com ([64.101.220.157]) by XCH-RTP-017.cisco.com ([64.101.220.157]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sat, 3 Oct 2015 01:49:59 -0400 From: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Simon Perreault , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] WGLC draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-01 Thread-Index: AQHQ/Z9XAtFADicfJkyniikntFcJdw== Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2015 05:49:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1a275494a53246f8a8bdc142e7d81a26@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1a275494a53246f8a8bdc142e7d81a26@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.72.83] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-ID: <0FBFE4F433AF9E48B7AD2FEA0B6BA5B2@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] WGLC draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-01 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90cmFtDQo+PiA+Pg0KPj4gPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+ID4+IHRyYW0gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQo+PiA+PiB0cmFtQGlldGYub3JnDQo+PiA+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL3RyYW0NCj4NCg0K From nobody Wed Oct 7 06:42:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289271A908D; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vVd-r6I68Gl5; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36841A905E; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:41:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151007134144.9119.96308.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 06:41:44 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 13:41:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working Group of the IETF. Title : Discovery of path characteristics using STUN Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Dan Wing Paal-Erik Martinsen Varun Singh Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2015-10-07 Abstract: A host with multiple interfaces needs to choose the best interface for communication. Oftentimes, this decision is based on a static configuration and does not consider the path characteristics, which may affect the user experience. This document describes a mechanism for an endpoint to discover the path characteristics using Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) messages. The measurement information can then be used to influence the endpoint's Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) candidate pair selection algorithm. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Oct 7 06:43:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746E61A1A4D for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:43:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5JlfeeVHQHEQ for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E30371A8925 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 06:43:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2330; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444225414; x=1445435014; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=2wOE6xO85OKj1A5IzpyfRQGC92dpjz9sT6wxwbz8GGQ=; b=A5W67ARADPfrmgwD30/JRS86IAmKeaIe30Zvqe0Ay8uZ7SpiYwq5U0zv qaNiv4OBp55sFxyDdO9j/gOnNwFxLQj2RZAjZWCUIeprb/V4b5HQscIvv R3VIGxsxdP3ivxdeUrLu2S6oB6/mBckoqeg8IMUChDT58nckKBO8EWroZ g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D3AQBPIBVW/4oNJK1egydUbga9VQENgVoXCoV5AoE8OBQBAQEBAQEBfwuEJgEBAQQBAQE3NBcEAgEIEQQBAR8JBycLFAkIAgQTCIgmDcFIAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4ZzhH6FFAaEKAWWBQGFF4d4gV5Ig3GVZgEfAQFChAJxhmaBBgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,649,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="195384581" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Oct 2015 13:43:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t97DhYcG018347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:43:34 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:43:33 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 08:43:33 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHRAQX1M/S2hPds4EigEy7jKKL+K55gCikw Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 13:43:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151007134144.9119.96308.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151007134144.9119.96308.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.73.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 13:43:36 -0000 This revision addresses comments received during WGLC. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 7:12 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working > Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Discovery of path characteristics using STUN > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Dan Wing > Paal-Erik Martinsen > Varun Singh > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2015-10-07 >=20 > Abstract: > A host with multiple interfaces needs to choose the best interface > for communication. Oftentimes, this decision is based on a static > configuration and does not consider the path characteristics, which > may affect the user experience. >=20 > This document describes a mechanism for an endpoint to discover the > path characteristics using Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) > messages. The measurement information can then be used to influence > the endpoint's Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) candidate > pair selection algorithm. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 7 10:09:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2492E1B2F19 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cLysGWyCYHuY for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 871761A1A6E for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 10:08:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2881; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444237723; x=1445447323; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=XkgkSaRIpu89AVeZAAFlnh0/aSVYb2ubY7iYaddAWhQ=; b=XZAbJ06qYKFE32KWWUUYO4kw8F1rejpZOFLtg5+xV07mv5J2JfVLbHQC l6GSyk6KoBHLb0210ks8fmcwvBlQHdg6OzBuYAHg/GxRi+7+JmrJJw/VW eALd6vC6s0MnEc8eaNEGMWbnVpu5c2eTaEj0ev7glmT+WSBk52IduUkqb g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D3AQBfUBVW/5BdJa1egydUbga9PgENgVoXCoV5AoFBOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJgEBAQQBAQE3NBcEAgEIEQMBAQEfCQcnCxQJCAIEARKILg3CHAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGdIR9hRQGhCgFlgUBhReHf4FXSINxlWYBHwEBQoQCcYZmgQYBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,650,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="33487420" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Oct 2015 17:08:42 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t97H8gpJ009080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:08:42 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:08:41 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 12:08:41 -0500 From: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHRASLQM1gCsqya/0GhMFYp7Dv49g== Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 17:08:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151007134144.9119.96308.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.55.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <514CE7D6A6EC9A44824E6390B2677874@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2015 17:08:48 -0000 Diffs looks good. Thanks for taking care of the comments. Regards, Ram -----Original Message----- From: tram on behalf of "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Date: Wednesday, 7 October 2015 7:13 pm To: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt >This revision addresses comments received during WGLC. > >-Tiru > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- >> drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 7:12 PM >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Cc: tram@ietf.org >> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>directories. >> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working >> Group of the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Discovery of path characteristics using STUN >> Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Dan Wing >> Paal-Erik Martinsen >> Varun Singh >> Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02.txt >> Pages : 10 >> Date : 2015-10-07 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> A host with multiple interfaces needs to choose the best interface >> for communication. Oftentimes, this decision is based on a static >> configuration and does not consider the path characteristics, which >> may affect the user experience. >>=20 >> This document describes a mechanism for an endpoint to discover the >> path characteristics using Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) >> messages. The measurement information can then be used to influence >> the endpoint's Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) candidate >> pair selection algorithm. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-stun-path-data-02 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > >_______________________________________________ >tram mailing list >tram@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 7 14:42:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5681A00E6 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6mx8C9b7JAE for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5937C1A00E3 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=19298; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444254123; x=1445463723; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=zru3wBLW0BxlevCwglqWmboISWkz2pK+RmcE8vNVOlQ=; b=LExl5uvclc1/pW+EM3i8hrdDSOIa7WSFQQarPhtWH2mmuEsgYZ5A0f2M Ins+jEZe2zQJzLKk4RFHW1hauKq7ff4Il3G1DPAX++DjKG8UPKsRS97me VkJR7JK5uq5H7nDi81qhpPDbIogu4KsYk+XJIf05AMMDddrxkAOZAip2u Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AqAwAGkRVW/4wNJK1eglpNVG4GvUABDYFaFwEJgnKCCmYZAhyBKzgUAQEBAQEBAX8LhCYBAQEDAQEBASBLEAcEAgEIEQMBAQEBJwMCAgIfBgsUCQgCBBMbh34DCggNrhSOeA2FJQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEhnOCEIJuglCBZA4JMQ0LBoJjMYEUBZYFAYdBg2KBcwWBUpFXgQCHSAEfAQFChAJxhiMCHiOBBgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,651,1437436800"; d="scan'208,217";a="194996673" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Oct 2015 21:42:02 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t97Lg2Ih023694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:42:02 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 16:42:01 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 7 Oct 2015 16:42:01 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] TRAM rechartering Thread-Index: AQHQ7JehwVhNo1v9WEmlLnFZjxY76J43zb0AgAAAcgCAABCWAIAAE8QAgCiqCQA= Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:42:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55F2DA14.3040008@jive.com> <913383AAA69FF945B8F946018B75898A478D2410@xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.210.208] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_EBD4402A258545E88D7F0332B3A18FA9ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] TRAM rechartering X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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d3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdHJhbTxiciBjbGFzcz0iIj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0K PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwv aHRtbD4NCg== --_000_EBD4402A258545E88D7F0332B3A18FA9ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Oct 8 19:10:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48A51A8771; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:10:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RrrjsF5PaHCD; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741E51A8739; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:10:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.4.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151009021007.2191.62018.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 19:10:07 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:10:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working Group of the IETF. Title : TURN Server Auto Discovery Authors : Prashanth Patil Tirumaleswar Reddy Dan Wing Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2015-10-08 Abstract: Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server discovery mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit configuration. These are usually under the administrative control of the application or TURN service provider, and not the enterprise, ISP, or the network in which the client is located. Enterprises and ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto discovery mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minimal configuration. This document describes three such mechanisms for TURN server discovery. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Oct 8 19:14:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 919061A8877 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfBPBN9TQmxi for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1F91A8871 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 19:14:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2151; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444356847; x=1445566447; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=PdL9n4R45AouGomU6OZssgkqOm1kD8sPG2YfwTzLbko=; b=KPFfb753O7APFGlDeAU1U4rhYkBQaTuYUw4s2sGHjwh9Me5axNkRE4is b1fBUDHogOGpS6xQpaoLLxYu/kjzG5uNpezeq+BduD9ibV+i2YKcnLmZt gqE8aatfBTH5q8rG7HCywqNgZ+jau38XFC70hMUhEXEabsY4MqNSaITA6 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BfAgBDIhdW/4UNJK1egyZUbga9VgENgVoXDIJwggp/AoFVOBQBAQEBAQEBfwuEJwEBBAEBAWsbAgEIRicLJQIEE4guDcMZAQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEBG4ZzhH6ENA4YOoQuBY1DiEgBhReIAYFYSINylWgBHwEBQoQCcYYhQ4EGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,657,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="35922877" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Oct 2015 02:14:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t992E6jL032108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 9 Oct 2015 02:14:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:14:05 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 21:14:05 -0500 From: "Prashanth Patil (praspati)" To: "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHRAjgsatHtnVT6DEq1kbOFohsxvg== Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 02:14:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151009021007.2191.62018.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151009021007.2191.62018.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.5.150821 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.248.40] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <21FC342B9B9A8549843871DC060B8949@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:14:09 -0000 We=B9ve submitted a revision of the TURN auto discovery draft that addresse= s comments raised on the mailing list. -Prashanth On 10/8/15, 7:10 PM, "tram on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org" wrote: > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working >Group of the IETF. > > Title : TURN Server Auto Discovery > Authors : Prashanth Patil > Tirumaleswar Reddy > Dan Wing > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05.txt > Pages : 14 > Date : 2015-10-08 > >Abstract: > Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server discovery > mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit > configuration. These are usually under the administrative control of > the application or TURN service provider, and not the enterprise, > ISP, or the network in which the client is located. Enterprises and > ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto discovery > mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minimal > configuration. This document describes three such mechanisms for > TURN server discovery. > > >The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ > >There's also a htmlized version available at: >https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-05 > >A diff from the previous version is available at: >https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-= 05 > > >Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >submission >until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >_______________________________________________ >tram mailing list >tram@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Mon Oct 12 10:11:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2911A89B9 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uOtIU7T_rrLj for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5B971A89B8 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicge5 with SMTP id ge5so158757905wic.0 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=imx+tv3elz04Pl3Iai2ERUVqUHYXSf94dfjuYnnxK5E=; b=OYOCJWrG5CZPxdrV9Z3GIf33XY/DxyCpJsoE0rMhIGAWVSbUeWkDIS6FDxYIMiw4wz ho5jeovF+g0U1FZU6jMyx1Zax6RTvQ4v1xzvyj5y36GIE0z+zo0S5c6JG9ikkRolyzBY A/B7qGGUiRuFbSN29yGs/0zxGFrPkWyoMH2tPwmMuKFxNwRXbnwmr/wU/eoN0i6dem3N RLtFd4RWppaUdgFte8x/8EfkF4Jn6uhVygdaJs3xyegwv/p4KBKuYMuolfKrqGVhaFIJ 3i55r2T4j+QJpTWJdItDjsz0mzaIi/apFgMeCP3PSxARfYbcOSGbbksRsxjmVGjkeEHB e1bw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.86.165 with SMTP id q5mr15520230wiz.52.1444669901322; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.178.162 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <56014766.4070005@jive.com> References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: From: Oleg Moskalenko To: Simon Perreault Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:11:44 -0000 Regarding ICMP packets routing. There is one problem in this proposal: in the way how it is worded currently, it is impossible to implement on any commonly used and known OS, without superuser privileges. Receiving ICMP packets requires one of two options: 1) dedicated listening ICMP socket. It works on many OSes, and it provides accurate information, but it requires superuser privileges. 2) It can be partially implemented on Linux only, without superuser privileges, by setting IP_RECVERR socket option on a UDP socket. I see two problems in the second approach: 1) It is limited to a single platform (Linux); 2) It does not provide full information. If say we are getting IPv4 "port unreachable" ICMP error (type 3, code 3) the ICMP packet contains everything that is needed - destination IP address and destination port number. But the control message that is delivered to the Linux socket, contains only the IP address. We also can read the original UDP packet payload (without packet header), but it does not have any useful (for us) information. In all my tests with Linux kernels 3.x and 4.x, the delivered port number is 0 (zero) in 100% of all tests. This is either a Linux kernel bug, or a feature - but it does not matter - in the current state of things, the correct handling of the ICMP messages cannot be implemented without superuser privileges. One option would be dropping port number requirement from ICMP STUN attribute, but I guess that makes it much less useful. And I am not sure that requiring superuser privileges is a good feature, from the security point of view. Thanks Oleg On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Simon Perreault wrot= e: > Le 2015-09-22 00:28, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) a =C3=A9crit : >> This revision addresses comments from Simon, removes SendError, and uses= Data indication for ICMP attribute. > > Changes look good! Thanks! > > Simon > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Tue Oct 13 00:36:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03AA11B39DF for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:36:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybn2mmhwqxzo for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D90F1B39D2 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 00:36:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5772; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444721779; x=1445931379; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=M9Gijr9n3yEjiU7yesHNX2LKBaUNSOgJfHMI2wRDdAA=; b=mymIaWDiXYFFkFTqX/zj7jb8acewURAcA78pW7RcPM9eeVLbFNi58yVu 6N6pI6o2OIwntQhF8naSc2H+4b++jqNJ9e6lhUkMOklm6g5BuVaOVvWfO QdRZbt0ehpsIQuP3jekAvy6rh0GWiGTrwCax02nCXYXYiMvFQS69cwqOy U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0C4AgDusxxW/4wNJK1dgyZUbga+CQENgVoXDIJwggp/AhyBHzgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCYBAQEDAQEBASAEDToLBQsCAQgOCgICJgICAh8GCxUQAgQBDQWIGQMKCA2sZ443DYUZAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEwSBIoVTghCCboJQgWQOGBgbB4JpMYEUBZYVAYUYhg2BdIFYh16LBoNag24BHwEBQoIOIIFUcYUoQ4EGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,677,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="197245225" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 07:36:18 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9D7aIVc003318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 07:36:18 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:36:05 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 02:36:05 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Oleg Moskalenko , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHQ9O7+C5wrveIjpkak5r6CkwnhmJ5ISEYAgACDogCAH8ArgIAA8Y+A Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 07:36:05 +0000 Message-ID: <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.170.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4BC652CA4CCEAD46B325FF176C9D5A0D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Simon Perreault , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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<3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:09:54 -0700 Message-ID: From: Oleg Moskalenko To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Simon Perreault , "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:09:58 -0000 On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) wrote: > >> On 12 Oct 2015, at 19:11, Oleg Moskalenko wrote: >> >> Regarding ICMP packets routing. >> >> There is one problem in this proposal: in the way how it is worded >> currently, it is impossible to implement on any commonly used and >> known OS, without superuser privileges. >> > > I think this is doable. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martinsen-t= ram-stuntrace-01#appendix-A That does not address my concerns. Please see below. > >> Receiving ICMP packets requires one of two options: >> >> 1) dedicated listening ICMP socket. It works on many OSes, and it >> provides accurate information, but it requires superuser privileges. > > On OS-X and IOS (And probably *BSD, have not tested) it is possible to cr= ate a separate socket that listens for ICMP. This does not require admin pr= ivileges. > > icmpSocket=3Dsocket(config.remoteAddr.ss_family, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_ICMP= ); > > Or with IPPROTO_ICMPV6 for IPv6. I think nobody consider iOS as a platform for TURN server, right ? This works on Mac OS X. It does not work on BSD. BSD requires SOCK_RAW (it does not allow SOCK_DGRAM there) and SOCK_RAW requires superuser privileges. > > >> 2) It can be partially implemented on Linux only, without superuser >> privileges, by setting IP_RECVERR socket option on a UDP socket. >> > I think it can be fully implemented. As you say by using IP_RECVERR. > First tell Linux you want to receive it: > setsockopt (config.sockfd, SOL_IP, IP_RECVERR, &val, sizeof (val)) < 0) > > And then later in your poll() you check for POLLERR > >> I see two problems in the second approach: >> >> 1) It is limited to a single platform (Linux); >> 2) It does not provide full information. If say we are getting IPv4 >> "port unreachable" ICMP error (type 3, code 3) the ICMP packet >> contains everything that is needed - destination IP address and >> destination port number. But the control message that is delivered to >> the Linux socket, contains only the IP address. We also can read the >> original UDP packet payload (without packet header), but it does not >> have any useful (for us) information. In all my tests with Linux >> kernels 3.x and 4.x, the delivered port number is 0 (zero) in 100% of >> all tests. This is either a Linux kernel bug, or a feature - but it >> does not matter - in the current state of things, the correct handling >> of the ICMP messages cannot be implemented without superuser >> privileges. >> > > ICMP will give you at least 8 bytes of the offending packet, so the compl= ete IP and UDP header should be there. No. That's not how it works. See the next section, below: > > The information should be available in cmsg. > > > for (cmsg =3D CMSG_FIRSTHDR(&msg); cmsg !=3D NULL; > cmsg =3D CMSG_NXTHDR(&msg,cmsg)) { > if (cmsg->cmsg_level =3D=3D IPPROTO_IP && cmsg->cmsg_type =3D=3D IP_R= ECVERR){ > struct sock_extended_err *ee; > ee =3D (struct sock_extended_err *) CMSG_DATA(cmsg); > > if (ee->ee_origin =3D=3D SO_EE_ORIGIN_ICMP) { > //Have mercy.. Must fix this > struct sockaddr_in *addr =3D &((struct sockaddr_in*)SO_EE_OFF= ENDER(ee))->sin_addr; > > config->icmp_handler(config, > (struct sockaddr*)addr, > ee->ee_type); > } > } > } Have you ever tried this approach yourself ? I mean, have you tried to get full ICMP error information with that approach ? I did. I tried it with Linux kernels 2.x, 3.x and 4.x. All give me the same result, so I consider that as a stable Linux functionality: The total size of cmsg for ICMP packet is 48 bytes. 16 bytes are taken by cmsg header. 16 bytes are taken by "struct sock_extended_err" error information structure. The remaining 16 bytes are taken by struct sockaddr_in *addr that, remarkably, contains only the IP address of the offending party - but it DOES NOT CONTAIN THE PORT NUMBER. This is the whole point of my concern. I am sure about my findings because I tried it on many different Linuxes with different kernel versions. Another available piece of information is the received message itself on IP_RECVERR-enabled-socket. But according to the man pages, and according to my own tests, the delivered message is the payload of the original UDP packet; it is NOT the payload of the ICMP package. So we do not have the original UDP header information, and we cannot deduce the original destination port number from there. With the SOCK_RAW, we do have the full ICMP payload, but the SOCK_RAW requires superuser privileges. > > > >> One option would be dropping port number requirement from ICMP STUN >> attribute, but I guess that makes it much less useful. >> >> And I am not sure that requiring superuser privileges is a good >> feature, from the security point of view. >> > Complete src code for a client that runs on OS-X, IOS, Android and Linux = can be found at: > https://github.com/palerikm/ICMPTest That code will not work under unprivileged user in Linux or BSD. That is the point of my concern. TURN-bis is calling for a feature that can be implemented (for unprivileged user) only in one single modern common available OS - Mac OS X. That is a wonderful, powerful OS that is a very good solid platform for a TURN Server. But the reality of the modern world is that the major portion of the TURN server market is taken by Linux (and some portion by BSD). Both Linux and BSD require superuser privileges for TURN server to implement that feature. This is just my concern. But I am pretty much sure that security-conscious people may object that feature. Thanks Oleg > > Code is messy, sorry about that. > > I am worried about any performance impact this might have on a server. Ha= ve not tested that. > > .-. > P=C3=A5l-Erik > > >> Thanks >> Oleg >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Simon Perreault w= rote: >>> Le 2015-09-22 00:28, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) a =C3=A9crit : >>>> This revision addresses comments from Simon, removes SendError, and us= es Data indication for ICMP attribute. >>> >>> Changes look good! Thanks! >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tram mailing list >>> tram@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:43:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25171A8A89 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:43:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5UBOh35E4nS for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 125281A8A84 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:43:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=78150; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444768989; x=1445978589; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=djthIOfdOgStjOBf/hQTCx+xWHC9SWgCoNUimsLdLqc=; b=QTeCmeuqtzNJ8IQSp03u0ZGy7EA+cqDtpJNayvYG+9X+Aep9FefFjZnV OTYw6JvbaSVSa0WTxi6hMJwfC1dIbG1OWV30C4a5dT4BY5YI/zJmbX5gf 0OF88a1hGg4RIXjlpzSwMei4qhP9nTA8KbeImoxsMkElS1YzbpTw9AbKo I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DyAQBwbB1W/5BdJa1egllNVG4Gvg0BDYFXAxcBC4JwgwkCHIEuOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJwEBBAEBARoGBEcLEAIBCA4qAQYDAgICHwYLFBECBA4FiBkDEg2vFI45DYR6AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBEwSGdYIQgm6CUIFkDjAXBAeCaTGBFAWHP4sXg0ABhRiGDYF0gViEOoMkiwmDWoNuAR8BAUKCDgIBHYFUcYUoQ4EGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,680,1437436800"; d="scan'208,217";a="197507076" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Oct 2015 20:43:07 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9DKh7dX012551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:43:07 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:42:54 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com ([173.37.102.29]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 15:42:54 -0500 From: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" To: Oleg Moskalenko Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHQ9O7+C5wrveIjpkak5r6CkwnhmJ5ISEYAgACDogCAH8ArgIAA8Y+AgADBzQCAABoQgA== Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:42:54 +0000 Message-ID: <4B2B457B-9550-4230-AD39-295C3CCB9D86@cisco.com> References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.170.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4B2B457B95504230AD39295C3CCB9D86ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Simon Perreault , "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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PSIiPg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90cmFtPC9ibG9ja3F1 b3RlPg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxiciBj bGFzcz0iIj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_4B2B457B95504230AD39295C3CCB9D86ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Oct 13 13:50:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085FE1A8AF5 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:50:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.387 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.387 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kP71n7bsOlJ for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f182.google.com 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[96.22.157.164]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r4sm2432598obf.7.2015.10.13.13.50.22 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 13 Oct 2015 13:50:22 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pal Martinsen (palmarti)" , Oleg Moskalenko References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> <4B2B457B-9550-4230-AD39-295C3CCB9D86@cisco.com> From: Simon Perreault Message-ID: <561D6E8C.8010601@jive.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 16:50:20 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B2B457B-9550-4230-AD39-295C3CCB9D86@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 20:50:26 -0000 Can't we simply make it optional to set the port in the XOR-PEER-ADDRESS attribute? That is, set it to zero if you don't have access to it. Am I missing something? Simon Le 2015-10-13 16:42, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) a écrit : > >> On 13 Oct 2015, at 21:09, Oleg Moskalenko > > wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) >> > wrote: >>> >>>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 19:11, Oleg Moskalenko >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Regarding ICMP packets routing. >>>> >>>> There is one problem in this proposal: in the way how it is worded >>>> currently, it is impossible to implement on any commonly used and >>>> known OS, without superuser privileges. >>>> >>> >>> I think this is doable. >>> See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martinsen-tram-stuntrace-01#appendix-A >> >> That does not address my concerns. Please see below. >> >>> >>>> Receiving ICMP packets requires one of two options: >>>> >>>> 1) dedicated listening ICMP socket. It works on many OSes, and it >>>> provides accurate information, but it requires superuser privileges. >>> >>> On OS-X and IOS (And probably *BSD, have not tested) it is possible >>> to crate a separate socket that listens for ICMP. This does not >>> require admin privileges. >>> >>> icmpSocket=socket(config.remoteAddr.ss_family, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_ICMP); >>> >>> Or with IPPROTO_ICMPV6 for IPv6. >> >> I think nobody consider iOS as a platform for TURN server, right ? > > Well, if it is the only platform that can implement the RFC it might get > a boost.. :-) > >> >> This works on Mac OS X. It does not work on BSD. BSD requires SOCK_RAW >> (it does not allow SOCK_DGRAM there) and SOCK_RAW requires superuser >> privileges. >> > That is a shame. I was hoping it was a BSD feature. > >>> >>> >>>> 2) It can be partially implemented on Linux only, without superuser >>>> privileges, by setting IP_RECVERR socket option on a UDP socket. >>>> >>> I think it can be fully implemented. As you say by using IP_RECVERR. >>> First tell Linux you want to receive it: >>> setsockopt (config.sockfd, SOL_IP, IP_RECVERR, &val, sizeof (val)) < 0) >>> >>> And then later in your poll() you check for POLLERR >>> >>>> I see two problems in the second approach: >>>> >>>> 1) It is limited to a single platform (Linux); >>>> 2) It does not provide full information. If say we are getting IPv4 >>>> "port unreachable" ICMP error (type 3, code 3) the ICMP packet >>>> contains everything that is needed - destination IP address and >>>> destination port number. But the control message that is delivered to >>>> the Linux socket, contains only the IP address. We also can read the >>>> original UDP packet payload (without packet header), but it does not >>>> have any useful (for us) information. In all my tests with Linux >>>> kernels 3.x and 4.x, the delivered port number is 0 (zero) in 100% of >>>> all tests. This is either a Linux kernel bug, or a feature - but it >>>> does not matter - in the current state of things, the correct handling >>>> of the ICMP messages cannot be implemented without superuser >>>> privileges. >>>> >>> >>> ICMP will give you at least 8 bytes of the offending packet, so the >>> complete IP and UDP header should be there. >> >> No. That's not how it works. See the next section, below: >> > They 8 bytes are at least on the wire, at least according to RFC1122 > >>> >>> The information should be available in cmsg. >>> >>> >>> for (cmsg = CMSG_FIRSTHDR(&msg); cmsg != NULL; >>> cmsg = CMSG_NXTHDR(&msg,cmsg)) { >>> if (cmsg->cmsg_level == IPPROTO_IP && cmsg->cmsg_type == IP_RECVERR){ >>> struct sock_extended_err *ee; >>> ee = (struct sock_extended_err *) CMSG_DATA(cmsg); >>> >>> if (ee->ee_origin == SO_EE_ORIGIN_ICMP) { >>> //Have mercy.. Must fix this >>> struct sockaddr_in *addr = &((struct >>> sockaddr_in*)SO_EE_OFFENDER(ee))->sin_addr; >>> >>> config->icmp_handler(config, >>> (struct sockaddr*)addr, >>> ee->ee_type); >>> } >>> } >>> } >> >> Have you ever tried this approach yourself ? I mean, have you tried to >> get full ICMP error information with that approach ? I did. I tried it >> with Linux kernels 2.x, 3.x and 4.x. All give me the same result, so I >> consider that as a stable Linux functionality: >> >> The total size of cmsg for ICMP packet is 48 bytes. 16 bytes are taken >> by cmsg header. 16 bytes are taken by "struct sock_extended_err" error >> information structure. The remaining 16 bytes are taken by struct >> sockaddr_in *addr that, remarkably, contains only the IP address of >> the offending party - but it DOES NOT CONTAIN THE PORT NUMBER. This is >> the whole point of my concern. I am sure about my findings because I >> tried it on many different Linuxes with different kernel versions. >> > > Thanks for pointing that out. I was able to get the sockaddr and assumed > the rest of the information was there. > >> Another available piece of information is the received message itself >> on IP_RECVERR-enabled-socket. But according to the man pages, and >> according to my own tests, the delivered message is the payload of the >> original UDP packet; it is NOT the payload of the ICMP package. So we >> do not have the original UDP header information, and we cannot deduce >> the original destination port number from there. > > *sigh* > So the kernel stores the entire UDP payload so it can be reported back > to the user? The TURN server can keep a list or hash of outgoing packets > and port numbers, but that would be cumbersome and to much overhead for > this. > > Another idea.. If that UDP payload is a STUN packet being sent over the > TURN relay as part of the initial ICE connectivity checks. It can be > useful for the ICE agent to know that that particular STUN message > encountered a ICMP error at the other side of the TURN server. Knowing > what STUN transactions caused an ICMP response would be nice. > >> >> With the SOCK_RAW, we do have the full ICMP payload, but the SOCK_RAW >> requires superuser privileges. >> > They claim the internet would break if it was not so.. > >>> >>> >>> >>>> One option would be dropping port number requirement from ICMP STUN >>>> attribute, but I guess that makes it much less useful. >>>> >>>> And I am not sure that requiring superuser privileges is a good >>>> feature, from the security point of view. >>>> >>> Complete src code for a client that runs on OS-X, IOS, Android and >>> Linux can be found at: >>> https://github.com/palerikm/ICMPTest >> >> That code will not work under unprivileged user in Linux or BSD. >> > Unless you are happy with just the IP addr. And that was all I tested. > >> That is the point of my concern. TURN-bis is calling for a feature >> that can be implemented (for unprivileged user) only in one single >> modern common available OS - Mac OS X. That is a wonderful, powerful >> OS that is a very good solid platform for a TURN Server. But the >> reality of the modern world is that the major portion of the TURN >> server market is taken by Linux (and some portion by BSD). Both Linux >> and BSD require superuser privileges for TURN server to implement that >> feature. >> > Ok. I have learnt a lot now. Thanks. > >> This is just my concern. But I am pretty much sure that >> security-conscious people may object that feature. >> > I now do share your concern. > > .-. > Pål-Erik > >> Thanks >> Oleg >> >>> >>> Code is messy, sorry about that. >>> >>> I am worried about any performance impact this might have on a >>> server. Have not tested that. >>> >>> .-. >>> Pål-Erik >>> >>> >>>> Thanks >>>> Oleg >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Simon Perreault >>>> > wrote: >>>>> Le 2015-09-22 00:28, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) a écrit : >>>>>> This revision addresses comments from Simon, removes SendError, >>>>>> and uses Data indication for ICMP attribute. >>>>> >>>>> Changes look good! Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> Simon >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> tram mailing list >>>>> tram@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tram mailing list >>>> tram@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > From nobody Tue Oct 13 14:15:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C821A901F for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.238 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.238 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5mxJMmpre_f for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 851DB1A8F4B for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicge5 with SMTP id ge5so210612914wic.0 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lhCIA6QJ7+KTiT/39LfgBRO5lG8bthPwhgnIN+1Xeis=; b=vh3qCX5OCY+eJXctTQgy45YVJ8gI4c9rgcsvxZnaDWO8wPHU3A6h6iBttWA968JB1w XE9f0aYcB2OuO9DQvjVoK6fN4eC88008btWBRxR70hs+0jEu6HHYcpRNaX92pIQkSgBq 3VDPwWwyzCvV6Irbq8DzMDqUvAsCaWeF89xRH5TV0yJb591dUIO0wIOJHjXof3vDJBr4 LvStgL142XMReABTC5V62GShl/GGFi0UU4YJE7wuY68aj2Ih3vtnPU2Pacgg19Z9GhNa Or9+LFqUBoCv0GAKbGfG/Ai+6bmpX3fb35D4gRlQjxOgvfhSZCt1574vXLXdVImME9qX eGBw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.39.193 with SMTP id r1mr22458247wik.57.1444770913183; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.178.162 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <561D6E8C.8010601@jive.com> References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> <4B2B457B-9550-4230-AD39-295C3CCB9D86@cisco.com> <561D6E8C.8010601@jive.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 14:15:13 -0700 Message-ID: From: Oleg Moskalenko To: Simon Perreault Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "Pal Martinsen \(palmarti\)" , "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 21:15:17 -0000 On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:50 PM, Simon Perreault wrot= e: > Can't we simply make it optional to set the port in the XOR-PEER-ADDRESS > attribute? That is, set it to zero if you don't have access to it. Yes, that would be my suggestion. See also below: > Am I missing something? > > Simon > > Le 2015-10-13 16:42, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) a =C3=A9crit : >> >>> On 13 Oct 2015, at 21:09, Oleg Moskalenko >> > wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Pal Martinsen (palmarti) >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 12 Oct 2015, at 19:11, Oleg Moskalenko >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Regarding ICMP packets routing. >>>>> >>>>> There is one problem in this proposal: in the way how it is worded >>>>> currently, it is impossible to implement on any commonly used and >>>>> known OS, without superuser privileges. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I think this is doable. >>>> See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-martinsen-tram-stuntrace-01#appe= ndix-A >>> >>> That does not address my concerns. Please see below. >>> >>>> >>>>> Receiving ICMP packets requires one of two options: >>>>> >>>>> 1) dedicated listening ICMP socket. It works on many OSes, and it >>>>> provides accurate information, but it requires superuser privileges. >>>> >>>> On OS-X and IOS (And probably *BSD, have not tested) it is possible >>>> to crate a separate socket that listens for ICMP. This does not >>>> require admin privileges. >>>> >>>> icmpSocket=3Dsocket(config.remoteAddr.ss_family, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_I= CMP); >>>> >>>> Or with IPPROTO_ICMPV6 for IPv6. >>> >>> I think nobody consider iOS as a platform for TURN server, right ? >> >> Well, if it is the only platform that can implement the RFC it might get >> a boost.. :-) it does not need any boost - it is on every iPhone and iPad and iWatch, already :) >> >>> >>> This works on Mac OS X. It does not work on BSD. BSD requires SOCK_RAW >>> (it does not allow SOCK_DGRAM there) and SOCK_RAW requires superuser >>> privileges. >>> >> That is a shame. I was hoping it was a BSD feature. Mac OS X is "a BSD" but it has lots and lots of upgrades and improvements in many areas over the original "BSD". Modern BSD and modern Mac OS X are different in many senses. Thanks Oleg >> >>>> >>>> >>>>> 2) It can be partially implemented on Linux only, without superuser >>>>> privileges, by setting IP_RECVERR socket option on a UDP socket. >>>>> >>>> I think it can be fully implemented. As you say by using IP_RECVERR. >>>> First tell Linux you want to receive it: >>>> setsockopt (config.sockfd, SOL_IP, IP_RECVERR, &val, sizeof (val)) < 0= ) >>>> >>>> And then later in your poll() you check for POLLERR >>>> >>>>> I see two problems in the second approach: >>>>> >>>>> 1) It is limited to a single platform (Linux); >>>>> 2) It does not provide full information. If say we are getting IPv4 >>>>> "port unreachable" ICMP error (type 3, code 3) the ICMP packet >>>>> contains everything that is needed - destination IP address and >>>>> destination port number. But the control message that is delivered to >>>>> the Linux socket, contains only the IP address. We also can read the >>>>> original UDP packet payload (without packet header), but it does not >>>>> have any useful (for us) information. In all my tests with Linux >>>>> kernels 3.x and 4.x, the delivered port number is 0 (zero) in 100% of >>>>> all tests. This is either a Linux kernel bug, or a feature - but it >>>>> does not matter - in the current state of things, the correct handlin= g >>>>> of the ICMP messages cannot be implemented without superuser >>>>> privileges. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ICMP will give you at least 8 bytes of the offending packet, so the >>>> complete IP and UDP header should be there. >>> >>> No. That's not how it works. See the next section, below: >>> >> They 8 bytes are at least on the wire, at least according to RFC1122 >> >>>> >>>> The information should be available in cmsg. >>>> >>>> >>>> for (cmsg =3D CMSG_FIRSTHDR(&msg); cmsg !=3D NULL; >>>> cmsg =3D CMSG_NXTHDR(&msg,cmsg)) { >>>> if (cmsg->cmsg_level =3D=3D IPPROTO_IP && cmsg->cmsg_type =3D=3D IP= _RECVERR){ >>>> struct sock_extended_err *ee; >>>> ee =3D (struct sock_extended_err *) CMSG_DATA(cmsg); >>>> >>>> if (ee->ee_origin =3D=3D SO_EE_ORIGIN_ICMP) { >>>> //Have mercy.. Must fix this >>>> struct sockaddr_in *addr =3D &((struct >>>> sockaddr_in*)SO_EE_OFFENDER(ee))->sin_addr; >>>> >>>> config->icmp_handler(config, >>>> (struct sockaddr*)addr= , >>>> ee->ee_type); >>>> } >>>> } >>>> } >>> >>> Have you ever tried this approach yourself ? I mean, have you tried to >>> get full ICMP error information with that approach ? I did. I tried it >>> with Linux kernels 2.x, 3.x and 4.x. All give me the same result, so I >>> consider that as a stable Linux functionality: >>> >>> The total size of cmsg for ICMP packet is 48 bytes. 16 bytes are taken >>> by cmsg header. 16 bytes are taken by "struct sock_extended_err" error >>> information structure. The remaining 16 bytes are taken by struct >>> sockaddr_in *addr that, remarkably, contains only the IP address of >>> the offending party - but it DOES NOT CONTAIN THE PORT NUMBER. This is >>> the whole point of my concern. I am sure about my findings because I >>> tried it on many different Linuxes with different kernel versions. >>> >> >> Thanks for pointing that out. I was able to get the sockaddr and assumed >> the rest of the information was there. >> >>> Another available piece of information is the received message itself >>> on IP_RECVERR-enabled-socket. But according to the man pages, and >>> according to my own tests, the delivered message is the payload of the >>> original UDP packet; it is NOT the payload of the ICMP package. So we >>> do not have the original UDP header information, and we cannot deduce >>> the original destination port number from there. >> >> *sigh* >> So the kernel stores the entire UDP payload so it can be reported back >> to the user? The TURN server can keep a list or hash of outgoing packets >> and port numbers, but that would be cumbersome and to much overhead for >> this. >> >> Another idea.. If that UDP payload is a STUN packet being sent over the >> TURN relay as part of the initial ICE connectivity checks. It can be >> useful for the ICE agent to know that that particular STUN message >> encountered a ICMP error at the other side of the TURN server. Knowing >> what STUN transactions caused an ICMP response would be nice. >> >>> >>> With the SOCK_RAW, we do have the full ICMP payload, but the SOCK_RAW >>> requires superuser privileges. >>> >> They claim the internet would break if it was not so.. >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> One option would be dropping port number requirement from ICMP STUN >>>>> attribute, but I guess that makes it much less useful. >>>>> >>>>> And I am not sure that requiring superuser privileges is a good >>>>> feature, from the security point of view. >>>>> >>>> Complete src code for a client that runs on OS-X, IOS, Android and >>>> Linux can be found at: >>>> https://github.com/palerikm/ICMPTest >>> >>> That code will not work under unprivileged user in Linux or BSD. >>> >> Unless you are happy with just the IP addr. And that was all I tested. >> >>> That is the point of my concern. TURN-bis is calling for a feature >>> that can be implemented (for unprivileged user) only in one single >>> modern common available OS - Mac OS X. That is a wonderful, powerful >>> OS that is a very good solid platform for a TURN Server. But the >>> reality of the modern world is that the major portion of the TURN >>> server market is taken by Linux (and some portion by BSD). Both Linux >>> and BSD require superuser privileges for TURN server to implement that >>> feature. >>> >> Ok. I have learnt a lot now. Thanks. >> >>> This is just my concern. But I am pretty much sure that >>> security-conscious people may object that feature. >>> >> I now do share your concern. >> >> .-. >> P=C3=A5l-Erik >> >>> Thanks >>> Oleg >>> >>>> >>>> Code is messy, sorry about that. >>>> >>>> I am worried about any performance impact this might have on a >>>> server. Have not tested that. >>>> >>>> .-. >>>> P=C3=A5l-Erik >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Oleg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Simon Perreault >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> Le 2015-09-22 00:28, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) a =C3=A9crit : >>>>>>> This revision addresses comments from Simon, removes SendError, >>>>>>> and uses Data indication for ICMP attribute. >>>>>> >>>>>> Changes look good! Thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> Simon >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> tram mailing list >>>>>> tram@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> tram mailing list >>>>> tram@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >> > From nobody Wed Oct 14 01:25:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2FD1B2C62 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 01:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FRT_STOCK2=3.988, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id utYHk1Vr50DG for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 01:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80B4B1B2C70 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 01:22:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14206; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444810939; x=1446020539; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=WddRi70Rr+8SfDjb8R2zK9D6SdCa+prSkT5AQdBicHY=; b=TGYpVajoqMJFwdcF9H9g0UUaSuAi48S30WPNxbpJ6DCc4qBPmlliwQ0s oiBN16dOlGu27/snBL5W/XnGEBtV8EXn4Rnjez8e+bNcb66sJQxEurDaf Bvhbu+XKQRbp+jxGYgY6oj+SFQQOACSeKb19SmhWu9YG+KAaxk3/lpiZL M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BiAgCHEB5W/5hdJa1egyZUbga9fAENgVoXCoJyggp/AhyBGDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhCYBAQEEAQEBGgYEDToLDAQCAQgOAwQBAQECAiMDAgICHwYLFAEICAIEAQ0FCIgRAxINrw6OPA2FCgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEgSKFVIR+glCBZA4JJxsHBoJjgUUFhz+OVgGFGIYOgW2BX4Q6gySKDH+DWoNuAR8BAUKCDgIBHYFUcYUmAh4jgQYBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,681,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="197946925" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 14 Oct 2015 08:22:18 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (xch-aln-019.cisco.com [173.36.7.29]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9E8MIc4018613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Oct 2015 08:22:18 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (173.36.7.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 03:22:04 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 03:22:04 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Oleg Moskalenko , Simon Perreault Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHQ9O7+YabPlcGwkEaP9wPRdRPHP55H9FSggADXlACAH8ArgIAA8YOAgADB2QCAABn8AIAAAhQAgAAG9ICAADHwUA== Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 08:22:04 +0000 Message-ID: <20e19ae76a80492c885e6e21fde5d31a@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <20150922042649.3757.15265.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3ce0f69eb30f4c22b2765ecbfb339b9e@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <56014766.4070005@jive.com> <6351DA8F-02CA-4E88-94A2-34F60178989C@cisco.com> <4B2B457B-9550-4230-AD39-295C3CCB9D86@cisco.com> <561D6E8C.8010601@jive.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.127.144.213] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Pal Martinsen \(palmarti\)" , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-07.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Alissa Cooper" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.5.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 10:31:22 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 17:31:23 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-tram-01-01: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not? Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for external review or not? If it were going for external review I would have put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review. My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or something like that. From nobody Wed Oct 14 11:24:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0311AD49B; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uW7bfrxHpQAK; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x230.google.com (mail-vk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C35E91AD277; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkex70 with SMTP id x70so27958294vke.3; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=gwxXeyMyw8NdQjbNPSZEGvbCoMsNeQuOMaK8Oeikh0Q=; b=EUzvJdDD0mjBDo0sNXCWimp7IfeQZK3c44WbijAUdfaLSl6n3R/CG2Qafd7VEtEQML VTvCavqZfdXB42LzaSeAXFtjVkafXcX1YK7XuhRwNrpG0Cyc5dZ/4xI56Ulkp/80hjwf YjcBj83vgLc/RH3SA5CyOL5Rj5MDCXOI9rK7VkLcbGrbLcDwrCm5hgpQ4Rt8bdHlur0Z MSibjZ0mQyHzxWTNkb8nprBhbUXsBKLUTkRtSWjouP2ZWnDNGqqT+/qX4/34awyuv9/B 0GKX3GU/0mKtog/FCTt/CHXHJXzm2ZKkKb6KngTR532/S2D8+H+EVSWASVq/q0vJycYU kZgg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.159.4 with SMTP id i4mr2518467vke.28.1444847056941; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.54.8 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:24:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:24:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: "tram@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142699e957ae0052214ab23 Archived-At: Cc: The IESG Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:24:20 -0000 --001a1142699e957ae0052214ab23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Tramsters, On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-tram-01-01: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not? > Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for > external review or not? If it were going for external review I would have > put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for > the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below > discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review. > > My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt > with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has > related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used > only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN > generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called > out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the > working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of > the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or something > like that. > I know what I think the answer to Alissa's question is, but since the TRAM working group is the one signing up to do the work, I'd like to hear your answer first. Thanks, Spencer --001a1142699e957ae0052214ab23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tramsters,

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@= cooperw.in> wrote:
Alissa C= ooper has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-tram-01-01: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tra= m/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not?=
Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for
external review or not? If it were going for external review I would have put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below
discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review.<= br>
My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN
generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard calle= d
out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the
working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of
the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or someth= ing
like that.

I know what I think the answ= er to Alissa's question is, but since the TRAM working group is the one= signing up to do the work, I'd like to hear your answer first.

Thanks,

Spencer=C2=A0
--001a1142699e957ae0052214ab23-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 11:28:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882AF1AD49D for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C9AOkil8n6Oy for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-f52.google.com (mail-oi0-f52.google.com [209.85.218.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 143CB1ADEB6 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oiak8 with SMTP id k8so32852683oia.1 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mRrraZDnAW1NRiRSDgrgk7pO2oSH52P7tdET4+t2Xyw=; b=jh16g8Pj0k2YG/0F7TDCJErPlQ2ZgK4SFK9hCvfVm/yf2slEMdQ9DyOMETx8Hb9vEB QqYliwYwij804bA0iADs2IGHdAZG3Ix1fJpLrbJXzRlqGJOM3+9EUTtfePPM23vr2sSW OC023iHk9tU/R4DSs/r3loInYUmfiH7sk9KA/Fh4LBngUDo/yw6FCtT5iZ9JrF0qfKL9 FhCDfFfRlEAmJ4pGzwx86z0Gory2oRyo2py1GxQxg8cDiD228Tn0OXk6GX9C+MbNFX1o eeQBmMnl7DKz9nTmaT23zneSYjuLLQ8NpJqttS8f+KSydd5TtjyIWCd9gTDQhbNcIbQq DLuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkEEeMndr51wma95vFKDWID4Wrd1ee14MPZuDTZfabrdrCLrv5tRQWeQJam+XgVMMQS3RKA X-Received: by 10.202.223.213 with SMTP id w204mr2907797oig.84.1444847284445; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Simons-MacBook-Air.local (modemcable164.157-22-96.mc.videotron.ca. [96.22.157.164]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q2sm4663675obf.22.2015.10.14.11.28.03 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:28:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "tram@ietf.org" References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Simon Perreault Message-ID: <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:28:02 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: The IESG Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:28:07 -0000 Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not? > Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for > external review or not? If it were going for external review I would > have > put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for > the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below > discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review. I don't know what "external review" is. > My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being > dealt > with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has > related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be > used > only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN > generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called > out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the > working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of > the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or > something > like that. I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. Simon From nobody Wed Oct 14 11:37:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F801B29BA; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kgUekFylJ6lG; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com (mail-vk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEDC71B29A3; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkex70 with SMTP id x70so28177024vke.3; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=A8/NDqZ/vaIbFfsAVFl0WIo6ELmD1funbLw3xXXIdM4=; b=tTncq4Tf5SNh1TiYPXJpnUPwoUUWbJBUX8Oz3VeqZrBfM4DOFhi9FBzWBFD+srzz8q HshiosT0a4meYQaGkCYuQJQH6ULCkETAH2nnoceXr6WC2eKsV1qNkJVrDuBGLVmSsY5+ /8rSC1o1bnWPXYnF92BfqUilP/cv10Z2ka1Ljp1/XqexzY1I+QrbpmN0Rp0yvhxJhWdG XjEy+WQJ70a94BtPfAGwOHckvA+S1FHtJTErHPV2zNFnhFoM50laC9RSB33I+vugWTQ9 /ByYq7oWQrq7Zs+5T9H80LMfQ/cXwPBIEty7rnxWvGQ4UujSvljkPPxqI/SVcMCbgPQ6 Ai9Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.159.4 with SMTP id i4mr2551041vke.28.1444847841758; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.54.8 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:37:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Simon Perreault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142699e5cd20d052214da9a Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:37:25 -0000 --001a1142699e5cd20d052214da9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Simon, On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: > Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > BLOCK: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or > not? > > Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for > > external review or not? If it were going for external review I woul= d > > have > > put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunit= y > for > > the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below > > discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external > review. > > I don't know what "external review" is. For working group recharters, sometimes we make big changes, and want about the same level of input that we got on the initial charter, so we send the charter to the IETF community for comments. When we do that, we are also notifying other SDOs. Sometimes we're making small changes, like adding two deliverables and deleting mention of work that's already been completed, as this TRAM recharter is doing. We can decide the change is small enough to "just do it". Knowing what a big change is, of course, is subjective. Alissa is referring to a question on the ballot that asks for feedback about that from other ADs. So the TRAMsters can safely ignore that part of Alissa's Discuss, and focus on her substantive point below (and thanks for expressing an opinion about that). Spencer > > My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being > > dealt > > with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM draft= s > has > > related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to b= e > > used > > only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for > STUN/TURN > > generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard > called > > out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the > > working group will clearly document the motivations and implication= s > of > > the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or > > something > > like that. > > I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. > > Simon > --001a1142699e5cd20d052214da9a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Simon,

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Simon Perreault <sperreault@j= ive.com> wrote:
Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit :
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BLOCK:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for= external review or not?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it= should go for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0external review or not? If it were going for extern= al review I would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0put my point below in a comment. But if this is the= last opportunity for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to s= ee the point below
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed. I don't think this charter needs to = go for external review.

I don't know what "external review" is.

For working group recharters, sometimes we make big chang= es, and want about the same level of input that we got on the initial chart= er, so we send the charter to the IETF community for comments. When we do t= hat, we are also notifying other SDOs.

Sometimes w= e're making small changes, like adding two deliverables and deleting me= ntion of work that's already been completed, as this TRAM recharter is = doing. We can decide the change is small enough to "just do it".= =C2=A0

Knowing what a big change is, of course, is= subjective. Alissa is referring to a question on the ballot that asks for = feedback about that from other ADs.

So the TRAMste= rs can safely ignore that part of Alissa's Discuss, and focus on her su= bstantive point below (and thanks for expressing an opinion about that).

Spencer
=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My substantive point has = to do with the scoping and use cases being
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0dealt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion ove= r the TRAM drafts has
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0related to whether the mechanisms being specified a= re expected to be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as = well, for STUN/TURN
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clar= ity in this regard called
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates t= o TURN and STUN, the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working group will clearly document the motivations= and implications of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the updates both within the WebRTC context and more= broadly" or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like that.

I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter.

Simon

--001a1142699e5cd20d052214da9a-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 12:07:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5CAB1A883D; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:07:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EOizkqyYdSIX; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DBB1A8833; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2602:61:753d:ca00:58ce:8a2a:5fd6:ae2c] (unknown [IPv6:2602:61:753d:ca00:58ce:8a2a:5fd6:ae2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 724FE200E1; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:07:43 +0200 (CEST) To: Simon Perreault , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "tram@ietf.org" References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <561EA7FC.4010202@acm.org> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:07:40 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: The IESG Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:07:46 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 10/14/2015 12:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: > Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> BLOCK: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not? >> Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for >> external review or not? If it were going for external review I would >> have >> put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for >> the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below >> discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review. > > I don't know what "external review" is. > >> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being >> dealt >> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has >> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be >> used >> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN >> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called >> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the >> working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of >> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or >> something >> like that. > > I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. > I do not want WebRTC (well, RTCWeb) to get a special status in the TRAM WG, same as I did not want it to get a special status in the ICE WG. Both these WGs should focus on "making the Internet work better". So I am fine in enumerating the list of technologies that use the output from TRAM (among them RTCWeb), or I am fine with a general commitment to make everything works better, but not with the text above. Again, RTCWeb/WebRTC is not special. Thanks. - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWHqf4AAoJECnERZXWan7ETKoQANsPA3KcRj/SrI2DYdnCk4KT 2GSkLr0rtMZjeP+82REFbFFe3Cpoo9THkuTtlET3q1euojksTCrtNBHIFEX0g/vf ie7EF22jXqw1urrjwnAvph3MpbNNYQ2WBSU9mw6BLx11+GsGPBkLfcrOCisIzPya s635g89B+lFZCzSnnLZujJAeDgnxJv49nhaAcLP/hIxSNeqNtH+vWzwaC8bCXJii p+ROPMsBJARsZ5gWuERI+WwEQe9lZQjpxFjmbKHNevKmOhvQF2W4YbV+oQKemxBU JXRYyZAbl+qp4Z/qT/Q8NCp9vzHvoveQ5J/xL8thVpkkTsf3qVDaupV44gqLsi11 BI2ddIvU1FipZ6O8PDep8a6rY3Tu4eYYe8coyDbfqumf9nvL6Z7vWvk3HxLC/fZB B5OYi/rMxdw3ug3mkGLVBXAs14FA9geR03f33MAPZAqpwgMWEtAy6FgkuWFLRzdU kXolwcrL052613/cSVUIRoj5eZmTG3g1MXt9PzWZ3mymduxZWnmJ9/dWFFwQ94zF Jl9M0jlXRbQNOGx6JUvZWXLIxkTxsAGuSRyzuBlLM/v3GL/0at5N8N8viE9q3P8V iyezLPnPVCFqf9ojBsiOmECIwmBDYcfvxbGtUjtjXj97t47TeEmlXVETP6WfJj1n EoHeZ0chGYogKvt5UEtC =spXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Wed Oct 14 13:46:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EB91A8863; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:46:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4c1YeUHFRJhn; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 990141A87DE; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:46:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1899; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444855560; x=1446065160; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=HkQU5LG6ZTSczU2yb4uCt7d9jC05I5VkgNxRjDcFEBA=; b=lke5GyO5u1JObLgs1Ns7x5OlAY1NCmEAYGf4IZxqG0Dcno3FnZER//tZ 6LAc997Uv4YV/xYW7dpXniIQThZ4/F4jPwJBmDOVy3jg/OqoGEl5nq8lH 8w+RmpmOkExbizIkkw01IeDyXp4KEiBM3nqN78aw2bsVKEwOFkG1T9vR7 I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BhAgChvh5W/4YNJK1egyZUbga9GgENgVoXCoJyggp/AoFMOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJgEBAQMBAQEBawsFCwIBCA4KLicLJQIEDgWIJggNw0MBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBIZ2ghCCboRaMweDGoEUAQSHPY5YAY0anAkBHwEBQoQCcYVpgQYBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,682,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="37649398" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Oct 2015 20:45:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9EKjoQ1032038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:45:51 GMT Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:45:36 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:45:36 -0500 From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" To: Simon Perreault Thread-Topic: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRBq4TmIvAAa3hGESK9HNp8c1idp5rySwA Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:45:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> In-Reply-To: <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [64.102.156.206] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: The IESG , "tram@ietf.org" , "Gonzalo Salgueiro \(gsalguei\)" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:46:03 -0000 > On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: >=20 > Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> BLOCK: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>=20 >> I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or no= t? >> Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for >> external review or not? If it were going for external review I would >> have >> put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity = for >> the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below >> discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review= . >=20 > I don't know what "external review" is. >=20 >> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being >> dealt >> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts = has >> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be >> used >> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TUR= N >> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard cal= led >> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the >> working group will clearly document the motivations and implications = of >> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or >> something >> like that. >=20 > I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. +1 TRAM work has already been scoped beyond WebRTC, so we should state it expl= icitly in the charter. Cheers, Gonzalo >=20 > Simon >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 14 13:48:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB3471A88A7; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:48:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id khoUHm_fwNQm; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com [23.79.238.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689DF1A88A0; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4514E138; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:08 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 446EC4DD38; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:08 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1444855688; bh=7oy7qdtWZBU9N5I8CzmsG1pRU7G1oPfYnmlgoypW+LM=; l=2125; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=LakO5M0rIMtemdW1RgP8Ypund1U4GgEQKSDPBQNDKO+951ZcqEjch+7kwam460qQM WxSheOotoZr/xMxwsqwn+fzqfefcifewrj4AzXC/UImhD9p+bA2KKGijYq0wxU4Qff /9rc8gjc0Fkxr0s+3hmPCaa9gmDCOjhzWrToZz38= Received: from [172.28.113.72] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.113.72]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0772030; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:08 +0000 (GMT) To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" , Simon Perreault References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <561EBF88.2050809@akamai.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:48:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , The IESG , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:48:11 -0000 +1 On 10/14/2015 04:45 PM, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote: > >> On Oct 14, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: >> >> Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> BLOCK: >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or not? >>> Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for >>> external review or not? If it were going for external review I would >>> have >>> put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for >>> the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below >>> discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external review. >> >> I don't know what "external review" is. >> >>> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being >>> dealt >>> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has >>> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be >>> used >>> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN >>> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called >>> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the >>> working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of >>> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or >>> something >>> like that. >> >> I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. > > +1 > > TRAM work has already been scoped beyond WebRTC, so we should state it explicitly in the charter. > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo >> >> Simon >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Wed Oct 14 14:01:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4E21A8900 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:01:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Kw9oZQ42weh for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 14:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA74E1A8981 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243584334DD for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:57:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com [172.27.118.251]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAF04334CE for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:57:26 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1444856246; bh=3e+H0gbd3C4tP20qWezGpzo/uIK06wufNXojNyPFU0I=; l=2009; h=References:To:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=DUjaCdrfkAOS+m1XZYRIMF4v1VfgQ9mDnOZ5ZxXcuMRYL9mhs7UKx5++b2TZ2lhph IUMquB7jnGOBp2+xX8raOc+vlJWr1MhWPU8mZIevKHLr3E9MLmzHXDWSruomHa26Ch c+FWp4lXyvEMBzQjawR2U6AiSIFoGip0DGK4069g= Received: from [172.28.113.72] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.113.72]) by prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E1B2035 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 20:57:26 +0000 (GMT) References: <20151014204935.16722.52620.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "tram@ietf.org" From: Brandon Williams X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <20151014204935.16722.52620.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <561EC1B5.3000206@akamai.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:57:25 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151014204935.16722.52620.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:01:12 -0000 I just posted the below referenced draft. It's focused on improving the speed of relayed ICE connectivity checks by defining a new type of permission that makes use of the offerer's ICE ufrag. We will appreciate your comments. Thanks, --Brandon -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:49:35 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Brandon Williams , Brandon Williams , Justin Uberti , Justin Uberti A new version of I-D, draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Brandon Williams and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission Revision: 00 Title: Ufrag Permissions for Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) Document date: 2015-10-14 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 9 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00 Abstract: When using a TURN relay, ICE connectivity checks require an explicit permission or channel binding to be established for each peer address to be checked. This requires the answerer to send its candidate addresses to the offerer via the rendezvous server, which can impose a latency penalty when the rendezvous server is centrally located. This document defines a new type of TURN permission that will allow any ICE connectivity check message that contains the offerer's ufrag value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over the associated TURN tunnel. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Wed Oct 14 15:39:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBD61B2B0E for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:38:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mquDSYbu10vl for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD9631B2A80 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586F720A06 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:38:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cooperw.in; h=cc :content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=CyLd6 Yrxkn4jt5IIEQdT1CQ98ro=; b=ZH2bgo/t8VF1Jk/2I41d86/N0CRYqqBdxIyT8 OnP5aH+YISgqYQLaCi3AyKlwyCAfI/gxuiUZbbeLsy9atrvDW23iXgXcw0OOTxEx FxnNo6S9Nm74TKbe6IlLFP4KcKwsFfJuHoFHOAVemSDPJeI+IWmw3UQ8XXxmYZO3 Pq+q5Y= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=CyLd6Yrxkn4jt5IIEQdT1CQ98ro=; b=uyq1d FmK3p9/FJS5aFj0T7Ut42RjFcVx4hEOB0b2usxQBm+xHO2svXv8qpU4frDs6NOUW CRFzNYCjpGDz206NlWIFrR9D4SMDpxo2eLmCY7x1KyXIFYlV/moIQB/Ch1T+SN4b p7JvAiowRUwFvV9uIPmrixmO5KzsLSgk+Uj31w= X-Sasl-enc: n3G44wRlSMOfrt0GfqHPjhst2Pbu9U33seY/Ptp40+i/ 1444862336 Received: from sjc-alcoop-8817.cisco.com (unknown [128.107.241.188]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 616F5C0001D; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 18:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_86AD22CE-D3BA-4B79-BDF0-FCD982BC04DB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Alissa Cooper In-Reply-To: <561EA7FC.4010202@acm.org> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 15:38:55 -0700 Message-Id: <9C303B55-5EF5-4C92-9930-FEC8A9706CA3@cooperw.in> References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> <561EA7FC.4010202@acm.org> To: Marc Petit-Huguenin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: IESG , Simon Perreault , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 22:39:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_86AD22CE-D3BA-4B79-BDF0-FCD982BC04DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On 10/14/2015 12:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: > > Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> BLOCK: > >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review = or not? > >> Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go = for > >> external review or not? If it were going for external review I = would > >> have > >> put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last = opportunity for > >> the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point = below > >> discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external = review. > > > > I don't know what "external review" is. > > > >> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases = being > >> dealt > >> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM = drafts has > >> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected = to be > >> used > >> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for = STUN/TURN > >> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this = regard called > >> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, = the > >> working group will clearly document the motivations and = implications of > >> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or > >> something > >> like that. > > > > I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. > > >=20 > I do not want WebRTC (well, RTCWeb) to get a special status in the = TRAM WG, same as I did not want it to get a special status in the ICE = WG. Both these WGs should focus on "making the Internet work better". = So I am fine in enumerating the list of technologies that use the output = from TRAM (among them RTCWeb), or I am fine with a general commitment to = make everything works better, but not with the text above. Again, = RTCWeb/WebRTC is not special. I suggested the sentence above because there are already a couple of = =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D mentions of WebRTC in the TRAM charter. If = those stay in I think my clarification suggestion should stay too. Alissa >=20 >=20 > Thanks. >=20 > -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram --Apple-Mail=_86AD22CE-D3BA-4B79-BDF0-FCD982BC04DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org> = wrote:

Signed PGP part
On 10/14/2015 12:28 PM, Simon = Perreault wrote:
> Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins = at IETF a =C3=A9crit :
>>     = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  =    BLOCK:
>>  =    = ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     I'm a little = confused. Is the charter going for external review or not?
>>  =    Or is the IESG = being asked to comment on whether it should go for
>>  =    external = review or not? If it were going for external review I would
>>  =    have
>>  =    put my point = below in a comment. But if this is the last opportunity for
>>  =    the IESG to = weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below
>>  =    discussed. I = don't think this charter needs to go for external review.
>
> I don't know what "external review" = is.
>
>>     My substantive point = has to do with the scoping and use cases being
>>     dealt
>>  =    with in TRAM. = I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has
>>  =    related to = whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be
>>  =    used
>>  =    only within = the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN
>>  =    generally. I'd = like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called
>>  =    out in the = charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the
>>  =    working group = will clearly document the motivations and implications of
>>  =    the updates = both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or
>>  =    something
>>  =    like that.
>
> I'd be fine with adding that sentence = to the charter.
>

I do not = want WebRTC (well, RTCWeb) to get a special status in the TRAM WG, same = as I did not want it to get a special status in the ICE WG.  Both these WGs should = focus on "making the Internet work better".  So I am fine in = enumerating the list of technologies that use the output from TRAM = (among them RTCWeb), or I am fine with a general commitment to make = everything works better, but not with the text above.  Again, RTCWeb/WebRTC is = not special.

I suggested the sentence above because there are = already a couple of =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D mentions of WebRTC in the = TRAM charter. If those stay in I think my clarification suggestion = should stay too.

Alissa


Thanks.

--
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: = http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug


_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

= --Apple-Mail=_86AD22CE-D3BA-4B79-BDF0-FCD982BC04DB-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 19:39:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3871B2F24 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:39:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tpo9lZuEdkdD for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52F861B2F23 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 19:39:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3015; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444876794; x=1446086394; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=vhlG9IEwLy4TTmnWubWL+XBIc8Coe0oHp3DqcG0hwfM=; b=VY2hWNKXlxy1I5x193riHaanpvKbv/sxklTO9Q77TPxYR+jM2xn4MsW2 L32RYWQk1VQ7YX2h5hzSX2vOSwP9zV/F3gV019JfN985PRcLvN7oByIRp 1UmEM46ekrYoyJ98CKECptg1LjjlaLX10/NNHczAuA67yeQoNvLAOEUoZ U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D/AQBmER9W/5NdJa1egyZUbga9JgENgVoXDIV5AoFBOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJgEBAQQBAQE3NAkOBAIBCBEDAQEBGQYJBycLFAkIAgQBEgiIJg3DHQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAReGdoR+hEJSBhOEFQWND4kIAYUYh3uBX0iDcpIKg24BHwEBQoIRHRaBP3GFaYEGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,683,1437436800"; d="scan'208";a="35835490" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Oct 2015 02:39:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9F2drK5004584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:39:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:39:39 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 21:39:39 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRBsN6OCadmQ7n50uWh/qIYtbSj55r018A Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:39:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151014204935.16722.52620.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561EC1B5.3000206@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <561EC1B5.3000206@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.45.104] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:39:56 -0000 To handle DDOS attack of spoofed ICE requests, did you consider the option = of signaling the endpoint's short-term password to TURN server so as to blo= ck those ICE requests ? draft-jennings-behave-rtcweb-firewall-01 and this draft are both discussing= STUN inspection on firewalls and TURN servers but in different ways to sol= ve different problems. =20 -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Williams > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:27 AM > To: tram@ietf.org > Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufr= ag- > permission-00.txt >=20 > I just posted the below referenced draft. It's focused on improving the s= peed > of relayed ICE connectivity checks by defining a new type of permission t= hat > makes use of the offerer's ICE ufrag. >=20 > We will appreciate your comments. >=20 > Thanks, > --Brandon >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:49:35 -0700 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Brandon Williams , Brandon Williams > , Justin Uberti , > Justin Uberti >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Brandon Williams and posted to the IET= F > repository. >=20 > Name: draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission > Revision: 00 > Title: Ufrag Permissions for Traversal Using Relays around NAT > (TURN) > Document date: 2015-10-14 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 9 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission= - > 00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > When using a TURN relay, ICE connectivity checks require an explicit > permission or channel binding to be established for each peer address > to be checked. This requires the answerer to send its candidate > addresses to the offerer via the rendezvous server, which can impose > a latency penalty when the rendezvous server is centrally located. > This document defines a new type of TURN permission that will allow > any ICE connectivity check message that contains the offerer's ufrag > value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over the > associated TURN tunnel. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 14 23:08:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B303C1B30B4 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:08:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6I7pP69pvehS for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94E131B30B3 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkat63 with SMTP id t63so43430565vka.1 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ELheNkTwgemMrrXqT8kT9QTQHLx+DVuMEzM8jgRjMJQ=; b=nx+UxU3ommFFg7wd2IdOHvDFEdD9zm5VicmsZg23fJPAqaHGiW9+8c5nUGmdXZmlPl 0DdU3Je8MFWeRrmN1wsK7iQuK15mBM35FZyrzHAtfeq0ejGDltbKybCPy/VK/r3ozHZp mc1N637zab9OANHhkT2PxVhWJDBTxXy5c2GHfcWaAQ+cC235uopMJo1CJT0GprAhy9+U GrP8kZZP96dxK+zigcUORfAC7+n2Lye9pgkdLpxtVIjPshIfUG87jjcaTYnBCQQZQ++V yLcu+0ZxZPQF9yPwQuAKLxnJ9Lgdd2J8A9h6MnvCeq26txATimOOLTJPmL8JTT4FdLQ5 e/Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ELheNkTwgemMrrXqT8kT9QTQHLx+DVuMEzM8jgRjMJQ=; b=GBzqRc7NaCb7fzZbRqdpSCD4bpEBsEedTEFVtcPQUpbmzjLg+qR737P1uw19IdTJue AvS5CcmTjjfBIW2EApXjQiP5qbRhGglOYd+7ThREg492Em9uTed2ljzua5J59/IAfa4Z qdGzmHc839egvQX3NwabBTtVJcXUhp1SrAiX4BJW8gXd6V6+umLjknVHWPVS57KXXKct mWIMo3eRP8cIaVuc8TIRxxFyBOGdXhuRV5VVeVysLs28THeV1Ji/Ur/BFiVXCvtyT2Sf QHy4FFqlCK0lKHFoVKvfNSWh8IAFio3H2lMhOEBCtR1rFA9h7b4fxo+BYUESt3BmOkoa tQ5A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmmlfF0wP2P7lZObPaSmq8MnnrMDPHODwB2xudP8yx4BRJcEFviywteCfa2Ic18wJ507u0M X-Received: by 10.31.10.16 with SMTP id 16mr4449065vkk.135.1444889296661; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.170.201 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:07:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20151014204935.16722.52620.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561EC1B5.3000206@akamai.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:07:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11457d6e44cc2405221e816e Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:08:19 -0000 --001a11457d6e44cc2405221e816e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 DDOS of spoofed ICE requests can happen already against the host/srflx candidate, so unclear this is a real-world problem. On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > To handle DDOS attack of spoofed ICE requests, did you consider the option > of signaling the endpoint's short-term password to TURN server so as to > block those ICE requests ? > draft-jennings-behave-rtcweb-firewall-01 and this draft are both > discussing STUN inspection on firewalls and TURN servers but in different > ways to solve different problems. > > -Tiru > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Williams > > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:27 AM > > To: tram@ietf.org > > Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-williams-tram-ufrag- > > permission-00.txt > > > > I just posted the below referenced draft. It's focused on improving the > speed > > of relayed ICE connectivity checks by defining a new type of permission > that > > makes use of the offerer's ICE ufrag. > > > > We will appreciate your comments. > > > > Thanks, > > --Brandon > > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > > Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:49:35 -0700 > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Brandon Williams , Brandon Williams > > , Justin Uberti , > > Justin Uberti > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Brandon Williams and posted to the > IETF > > repository. > > > > Name: draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Ufrag Permissions for Traversal Using Relays > around NAT > > (TURN) > > Document date: 2015-10-14 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 9 > > URL: > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission- > > 00.txt > > Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission/ > > Htmlized: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00 > > > > > > Abstract: > > When using a TURN relay, ICE connectivity checks require an explicit > > permission or channel binding to be established for each peer address > > to be checked. This requires the answerer to send its candidate > > addresses to the offerer via the rendezvous server, which can impose > > a latency penalty when the rendezvous server is centrally located. > > This document defines a new type of TURN permission that will allow > > any ICE connectivity check message that contains the offerer's ufrag > > value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over the > > associated TURN tunnel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > --001a11457d6e44cc2405221e816e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
DDOS of spoofed ICE requests can happen already against th= e host/srflx candidate, so unclear this is a real-world problem.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 a= t 7:39 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com> = wrote:
To handle DDOS attack of spoofed I= CE requests, did you consider the option of signaling the endpoint's sh= ort-term password to TURN server so as to block those ICE requests ?
draft-jennings-behave-rtcweb-firewall-01 and this draft are both discussing= STUN inspection on firewalls and TURN servers but in different ways to sol= ve different problems.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounc= es@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brandon Williams
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:27 AM
> To: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-= ufrag-
> permission-00.txt
>
> I just posted the below referenced draft. It's focused on improvin= g the speed
> of relayed ICE connectivity checks by defining a new type of permissio= n that
> makes use of the offerer's ICE ufrag.
>
> We will appreciate your comments.
>
> Thanks,
> --Brandon
>
>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:49:35 -0700
> From: internet-drafts@ietf= .org
> To: Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>, Brandon Williams
> <brandon.williams@ak= amai.com>, Justin Uberti <j= ustin@uberti.name>,
> Justin Uberti <justin@uberti.= name>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Brandon Williams and posted to the = IETF
> repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permi= ssion
> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ufrag Pe= rmissions for Traversal Using Relays around NAT
> (TURN)
> Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2015-10-14
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individu= al Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 9
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/= internet-drafts/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-
> 00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When using a TURN relay, ICE connectivity checks re= quire an explicit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0permission or channel binding to be established for= each peer address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be checked.=C2=A0 This requires the answerer to = send its candidate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses to the offerer via the rendezvous server,= which can impose
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a latency penalty when the rendezvous server is cen= trally located.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines a new type of TURN permission= that will allow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0any ICE connectivity check message that contains th= e offerer's ufrag
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value to be accepted on a relay address for deliver= y over the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated TURN tunnel.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

--001a11457d6e44cc2405221e816e-- From nobody Wed Oct 14 23:52:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548EC1B30FC for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZXODcMOlefwj for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9D491B30FA for ; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:52:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18164; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1444891969; x=1446101569; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=Zn8aoNIZKQlMnhuY+m3S8WJ17UuZYUMtJm4aAPvcb4I=; b=TNouq6K9fFPRP0UplAZL1+9wIBTSfHjncHDys/uqbOMcWPHyUKAspab+ ddnb4TYs4FvaYUs2n5fr83W3E1dcDuJEsGbdNMtH26ChA2VLW/pbFy6uT 1ihc+wpLn65d47qCL9OAa+fF2/wqUf2y8yg4JVQcZIjELN+Xxy7LRzYcq w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AdAgAoTB9W/4ENJK1egllNVG4GvSYBDYFZFwELhXkCHIEjOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEJgEBAQQBAQEgCkEJAgwGAQgOAwMBAQEZDwMCBCULFAkJAQQOBQiIJg2vUpM3AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBF4Z2hH6EQjAKDQQGBwMQglCBRQWND4kIAYUYh3uBX0iDcpIKg24BEQ4BAUKCER0WgT9xhGGBBgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.17,684,1437436800"; d="scan'208,217";a="198326751" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Oct 2015 06:52:48 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9F6qmZk008827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:52:48 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 01:52:33 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 01:52:33 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Thread-Index: AdEHFg9Qw09eYMw0TQ2oj7oWdbheyQ== Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: <86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.45.104] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328cXCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328cXCHRCD017ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 06:23:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850E61B31C6; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:23:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Db1MeJoC2OSE; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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15 Oct 2015 06:23:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9C303B55-5EF5-4C92-9930-FEC8A9706CA3@cooperw.in> References: <20151014173122.14856.74982.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <561E9EB2.1020104@jive.com> <561EA7FC.4010202@acm.org> <9C303B55-5EF5-4C92-9930-FEC8A9706CA3@cooperw.in> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:23:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114413a20e2a600522249573 Archived-At: Cc: IESG , Marc Petit-Huguenin , "tram@ietf.org" , Simon Perreault Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:23:22 -0000 --001a114413a20e2a600522249573 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, so I'm fine with "doing the right thing". The definitions of "doing the right thing" seem to be either - adding pointers to other (non-RTCWeb) uses, or - dropping the mention of RTCWeb and phrasing this as general-purpose NAT traversal. So, if we're going to add pointers, I note that the shiny new ICE charter says this: "Interactive Connectivity Establishment was published as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather limited deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is mandatory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF and W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). Later XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocols have used the protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940)." What else is applicable to TRAM, that's not on that list? Not that the TRAM charter list needs to be exhaustive, of course. Spencer On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > > On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > wrote: > > Signed PGP part > On 10/14/2015 12:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote: > > Le 2015-10-14 14:24, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> BLOCK: > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> I'm a little confused. Is the charter going for external review or > not? > >> Or is the IESG being asked to comment on whether it should go for > >> external review or not? If it were going for external review I > would > >> have > >> put my point below in a comment. But if this is the last > opportunity for > >> the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like to see the point below > >> discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external > review. > > > > I don't know what "external review" is. > > > >> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases bein= g > >> dealt > >> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM > drafts has > >> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to > be > >> used > >> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for > STUN/TURN > >> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard > called > >> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the > >> working group will clearly document the motivations and > implications of > >> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or > >> something > >> like that. > > > > I'd be fine with adding that sentence to the charter. > > > > I do not want WebRTC (well, RTCWeb) to get a special status in the TRAM > WG, same as I did not want it to get a special status in the ICE WG. > Both these WGs should focus on "making the Internet work better". So I > am fine in enumerating the list of technologies that use the output from > TRAM (among them RTCWeb), or I am fine with a general commitment to make > everything works better, but not with the text above. Again, > RTCWeb/WebRTC is not special. > > > I suggested the sentence above because there are already a couple of > =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D mentions of WebRTC in the TRAM charter. If thos= e stay in I think > my clarification suggestion should stay too. > > Alissa > > > Thanks. > > -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > --001a114413a20e2a600522249573 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, so I'm fine with "doing the right thing"= . The definitions of "doing the right thing" seem to be either
- adding pointers to other (non-RTCWeb) uses, or=C2=A0

- dropping the mention of RTCWeb and phrasing this as= general-purpose NAT traversal.

So, if we're g= oing to add pointers, I note that the shiny new ICE charter says this:

"Interactive Connectivity Establishment was publi= shed as RFC 5245 in April 2010. Until recently the protocol had seen rather= limited deployment. This situation has changed drastically as ICE is manda= tory to implement in WebRTC, a set of technologies developed at the IETF an= d W3C to standardize Real Time Communication on the Web. ICE was originally= defined for the Offer-Answer (RFC 3264) protocol used by SIP (RFC 3261). L= ater XMPP (XEP-0176), RTSP (draft-ietf-mmusic-rtsp-nat), RTCWeb (draft-ietf= -rtcweb-jsep) and other realtime media establishment protocols have used th= e protocol. ICE is also used by non-realtime media protocols, like HIP (RFC= 5770) and RELOAD (RFC 6940)."

What else is a= pplicable to TRAM, that's not on that list? Not that the TRAM charter l= ist needs to be exhaustive, of course.

Spencer
=

On Wed, Oct 14, 2= 015 at 5:38 PM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
=

On Oct 14, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>= wrote:

Sign= ed PGP part
= On 10/14/2015 12:28 PM, Simon Perreault wrote:
> Le 2015-10-14 14:24,= Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit :
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 -----------------------------------------------------= -----------------
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 = BLOCK:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 -----------= -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
= >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 I'm a little conf= used. Is the charter going for external review or not?
>>=C2= =A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Or is the IESG being asked to comment = on whether it should go for
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0 external review or not? If it were going for external review I w= ould
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 have
>&= gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 put my point below in a co= mment. But if this is the last opportunity for
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 the IESG to weigh in on this then I'd like= to see the point below
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 discussed. I don't think this charter needs to go for external re= view.
>
> I don't know what "external review" is.=
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 My substa= ntive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 dealt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusio= n over the TRAM drafts has
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0 related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected t= o be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 used
>&= gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 only within the WebRTC con= text or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN
>>=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 generally. I'd like to see a commitment to c= larity in this regard called
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0 out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and ST= UN, the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 working gr= oup will clearly document the motivations and implications of
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 the updates both within the Web= RTC context and more broadly" or
>>=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0 something
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 like that.
>
> I'd be fine with adding that s= entence to the charter.
>

I do not want WebRTC (well, RTCWeb) = to get a special status in the TRAM WG, same as I did not want it to get a = special status in the ICE WG.=C2=A0 Both these WGs should focu= s on "making the Internet work better".=C2=A0 So I a= m fine in enumerating the list of technologies that use the output from TRA= M (among them RTCWeb), or I am fine with a general commitment to make every= thing works better, but not with the text above.=C2=A0 Again, = RTCWeb/WebRTC is not special.

I suggested the sentence above because there are = already a couple of =E2=80=9Cspecial=E2=80=9D mentions of WebRTC in the TRA= M charter. If those stay in I think my clarification suggestion should stay= too.

Alissa



__________________________________= _____________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram=


--001a114413a20e2a600522249573-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 06:38:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A83F1B3204 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azsJePuUoIn9 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com [23.79.238.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53761B3202 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 06:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D39D4D38F; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:38:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com [172.27.118.251]) by prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BF9423AD4; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:38:28 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1444916308; bh=bn+FuOirKxTLESQvm0u4mWqcTEtoEF6p5ZGh4jHMb6E=; l=6895; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=KwkZhbzudFY3mYwuuMjcEbzfRHecfh1mbdQ7e9x95yYPPj+9PTYJ1Z83tri34LUTr GSwIX9ONqusvjf7WAtuzMGiFbt/Y8kHIoKO5H9mCtlEGIYuG1H89ZM3WJdj5pbqTXV uRZLrA1L38VRv80pMqw1UjvaZdHGVkTFAfCD5U2w= Received: from [172.28.113.72] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.113.72]) by prod-mail-relay10.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD97A203D; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:38:28 +0000 (GMT) To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Justin Uberti References: <86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <561FAC54.2020605@akamai.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:38:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 13:38:34 -0000 I don't see a significant difference in the attack profile for DDOS between this an standard address based permissions. In this case, I can mount a DDOS by knowing the ufrag. For address-based, I can mount a DDOS by knowing the address. The relatively minor difference is that reverse path filtering might limit an attacker's ability to spoof some addresses, but this is uncommon and unreliable enough that it's not really a meaningful improvement. Since the relay and the client already have to deal with roughly the same DDOS risk, I don't see significant value in sharing the short-term password with the relay. --Brandon On 10/15/2015 02:52 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > I meant with this change an attacker by just knowing the ufrag can now > launch an attack on the TURN server and on the endpoint by sending > spoofed ICE requests with valid ufrag but invalid message-integrity, and > can use any source IP address and possibly launch DDOS attack, TURN > server will just forward those ICE requests to the endpoint. > > -Tiru > > *From:*Justin Uberti [mailto:juberti@google.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, October 15, 2015 11:38 AM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > *Cc:* Brandon Williams; tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > > DDOS of spoofed ICE requests can happen already against the host/srflx > candidate, so unclear this is a real-world problem. > > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > wrote: > > To handle DDOS attack of spoofed ICE requests, did you consider the > option of signaling the endpoint's short-term password to TURN server so > as to block those ICE requests ? > draft-jennings-behave-rtcweb-firewall-01 and this draft are both > discussing STUN inspection on firewalls and TURN servers but in > different ways to solve different problems. > > -Tiru > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org > ] On Behalf Of Brandon Williams > > Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 2:27 AM > > To: tram@ietf.org > > Subject: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-williams-tram-ufrag- > > permission-00.txt > > > > I just posted the below referenced draft. It's focused on improving > the speed > > of relayed ICE connectivity checks by defining a new type of > permission that > > makes use of the offerer's ICE ufrag. > > > > We will appreciate your comments. > > > > Thanks, > > --Brandon > > > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject: New Version Notification for > > draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > > Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 13:49:35 -0700 > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Brandon Williams >, Brandon Williams > > >, > Justin Uberti >, > > Justin Uberti > > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Brandon Williams and posted to the > IETF > > repository. > > > > Name: draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Ufrag Permissions for Traversal Using Relays > around NAT > > (TURN) > > Document date: 2015-10-14 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 9 > > URL: > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission- > > > 00.txt > > Status: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission/ > > > Htmlized: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00 > > > > > > > Abstract: > > When using a TURN relay, ICE connectivity checks require an explicit > > permission or channel binding to be established for each peer address > > to be checked. This requires the answerer to send its candidate > > addresses to the offerer via the rendezvous server, which can impose > > a latency penalty when the rendezvous server is centrally located. > > This document defines a new type of TURN permission that will allow > > any ICE connectivity check message that contains the offerer's ufrag > > value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over the > > associated TURN tunnel. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org > . > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Thu Oct 15 08:00:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A531B33A0; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hLozh7AadIoI; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4321B33A3; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:00:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Alissa Cooper" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151015150011.21377.95567.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 08:00:11 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram-chairs@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 15:00:14 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or something like that. From nobody Thu Oct 15 09:23:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD3A1AC424; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vta1jhCTD0-I; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 956A61AC41C; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkha6 with SMTP id a6so52466519vkh.2; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=loozE/wiaTjvSjaL4I0bcGJ2cT3CVB+UNOUYAK2HZ4o=; b=W/vmEZZYWXnB9rEwhyRbzm/LpXoSDXeLlsngRZFZPyEcJaF4zno1NbBRI45c8PwK/B 0WiBNReTS+joOtiTa2U3bYj4aRbwB/0lJBeSntLqhaqC2Z7BoVoJbtZG/lsvtp/jqfAz K9gegQOglocXTzcDFu+7efqh4v9dncMPzNHc41KwIgMC3LPKpEh6YUntbE0/L6H21J5I TxISQTMdc8rcgFfeJ1gMRwwrC+Z5XvbQt+bHidYYHSiXbuQgbxXkSbh9RYeGsmwj57XR XeOmA+invU1N5ckDsBz88XO7HCQsO3xITxzCODTJEtYqelSbrPIPfhdqonxlznir2637 ggcQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.8.21 with SMTP id 21mr6559919vki.82.1444926227764; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.54.8 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 09:23:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20151015150011.21377.95567.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20151015150011.21377.95567.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 11:23:47 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114413a2885f850522271a3c Archived-At: Cc: "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 16:23:52 -0000 --001a114413a2885f850522271a3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Alissa, On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt > with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has > related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used > only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN > generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called > out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the > working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of > the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or something > like that. > I agree, and the folks who have chimed in on your previous DISCUSS seem to agree as well. I note that the just-approved ICE charter contains multiple examples of both realtime media and non-realtime media protocols that rely on ICE, and consequently on TURN. I stole those examples, and did an update (the URL for a diff is at http://tinyurl.com/ngje4tw). Could you let me know if I'm accurately reflecting what you're hoping for? Thanks! Spencer --001a114413a2885f850522271a3c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Alissa,

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw= .in> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the= following ballot position for
charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tra= m/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN
generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard calle= d
out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the
working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of
the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or someth= ing
like that.

I agree, and the folks who h= ave chimed in on your previous DISCUSS seem to agree as well.=C2=A0

I note that the just-approved ICE charter contains multip= le examples of both realtime media and non-realtime media protocols that re= ly on ICE, and consequently on TURN.

I stole those= examples, and did an update (the URL for a diff is at http://tinyurl.com/ngje4tw).

Could you let me know if I'm accurately reflecting what you're ho= ping for?

Thanks!

Spencer= =C2=A0
--001a114413a2885f850522271a3c-- From nobody Thu Oct 15 12:18:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1165F1A0047 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:18:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_unCjvmCzEt for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C402D1A008F for ; Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:18:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151015191818.16074.60103.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:18:18 -0700 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Milestones changed for tram WG X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 19:18:21 -0000 Changed milestone "Send new TURN server discovery mechanism for enterprises and ISPs to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to November 2015 from September 2014. Changed milestone "Send path characteristic measurement mechanism to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to November 2015 from August 2015. Changed milestone "Send STUN-bis draft to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to January 2016 from February 2015. Changed milestone "Send TURN-bis draft to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to January 2016 from February 2015. Changed milestone "Send new authentication mechanism(s) to IESG for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to March 2016 from November 2014. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/tram/charter/ From nobody Fri Oct 16 03:57:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772C41A88DA; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:57:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8mZ8K0z74LjR; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C02B1A88DF; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 03:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79a26d00000149a-43-5620d81a6564 Received: from ESESSHC011.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.124]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id B8.98.05274.A18D0265; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:57:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [131.160.36.67] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Fri, 16 Oct 2015 12:57:29 +0200 To: Ben Campbell , The IESG References: <20151014225619.5712.39951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Message-ID: <5620D819.9080609@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 13:57:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151014225619.5712.39951.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM+Jvja7UDYUwg8XfpS3md55mt5jxZyKz xfKfK9ksPqy9wObA4rFkyU8mj1k7n7AEMEVx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZVw+vZu94BxnRefLiAbG ++xdjJwcEgImEjPermWBsMUkLtxbz9bFyMUhJHCUUeL0x72MEM5qRolbE+awgVQJC4RKHL03 G8wWEbCRWH7wJZgtJOAgcWLKT1YQm1lAW2LhtS1gU9kELCS23LoPZvMCxRfN2QRWwyKgKnFl 91swW1QgRqLn1wY2iBpBiZMzn4DVcwo4Srx7uoepi5EDaKamxPpd+hDj5SW2v53DDLFWW2L5 sxaWCYyCs5B0z0LomIWkYwEj8ypG0eLU4qTcdCNjvdSizOTi4vw8vbzUkk2MwPA9uOW36g7G y28cDzEKcDAq8fAqRCmECbEmlhVX5h5ilOZgURLnbWZ6ECokkJ5YkpqdmlqQWhRfVJqTWnyI kYmDU6qBsXuFwjYu1epcvddSl4/uLPyqItF8iqdo8pdN185lLT7EPVthnvVn73cFZUL/PDa8 l+0Ozwxy2/+pfKtNkmD6sTZ9bRXHPtMlyjVmF84avG4xODjHqSrpPrN42rs4HRv/udNiTGs+ lWW0H74ecYw9YLdNe8DMn2Vr3/YcLg1XlDpt28Azc4K6EktxRqKhFnNRcSIAJEvW20ACAAA= Archived-At: Cc: tram-chairs@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tram] Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2015 10:57:34 -0000 Hi Ben, yes, that part of the chartering review process has been confusing for quite a while. It would be great if the IESG could look into it and fix it somehow. The goal should be to keep it flexible so that we can do the right thing in different situations and to also make it simple enough so that people actually understand the process :-) Thanks, Gonzalo On 15/10/2015 1:56 AM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I agree with Alissa's confusion (the tracker says internal review but the > ballot says external) and comment. > > Also, if this is for external review, some milestones would be nice. > > > From nobody Mon Oct 19 15:57:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398501B2E3A; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:56:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.6.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151019225657.32419.25532.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:56:57 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 22:56:57 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working Group of the IETF. Title : An Origin Attribute for the STUN Protocol Authors : Alan Johnston Justin Uberti John Yoakum Kundan Singh Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2015-10-19 Abstract: STUN, or Session Traversal Utilities for NAT, is a protocol used to assist other protocols traverse Network Address Translators or NATs. This specification defines an ORIGIN attribute for STUN that can be used in similar ways to the HTTP header field of the same name. WebRTC browsers utilizing STUN and TURN would include this attribute which would provide servers with additional information about the STUN and TURN requests they receive. This specification defines the usage of the STUN ORIGIN attribute for web, SIP, and XMPP contexts. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Oct 20 07:22:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21C01A1BF8 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqSuXe1yJhMq for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-f42.google.com (mail-oi0-f42.google.com [209.85.218.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37A601A1F16 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oiao187 with SMTP id o187so10562850oia.3 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=n6N32WFVDAs0lxb9dqON92svyI2jT0BOeX/5gMnlNlA=; b=T+O5y852uB3v+FtTP0YolFKeosTudH9HnjYUYarFkIwc2jl5aC5jpqCg/mOfIb4g28 1ecEtV3LdiW3CgtGd70LHObJWD7HpAf9YtZV6JihjUYhnaJE2sRqbDktEbxWDe3vMaSU 9IjqQvTd8T8qPa6F8G1F3ANJZy+SKA/Fhze/zeQDoH8y2662dT7pbjAEWE5xb1tNpejg KIvBDibKRStTyXxrYmxmZcVCi1o+pZALyilJnD9XNXI7+hPJRPSFKJTJx+cGnNfzaxsI 3RDWVi6Z0FSRbiWrgDbZm3ieKzED6uRyp9oIPLkFQywzfOU19wjauLRLzXGmT/7km6EA CNww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnKxmRn/pdRheAPD2dwMvqo7YS6qvo0U3dY7XTZAPOIcF9Eu/gn4COJ79sffcnbl3dSzqfz X-Received: by 10.202.84.209 with SMTP id i200mr687640oib.133.1445350960561; Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.44] (modemcable164.157-22-96.mc.videotron.ca. [96.22.157.164]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q62sm1322435oif.28.2015.10.20.07.22.39 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:22:40 -0700 (PDT) To: "tram@ietf.org" From: Simon Perreault Message-ID: <56264E2E.9000107@jive.com> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 10:22:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Draft agenda posted X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:22:48 -0000 https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/agenda/agenda-94-tram If you'd like to get a slot, please let the chairs know the draft name, who will be presenting, and how long you need. Simon & Gonzalo From nobody Wed Oct 21 13:33:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7851B2F76 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:33:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mY3aaHpdwqX5 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.trendhosting.net (mail1.trendhosting.net [195.8.117.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD2C81B2F63 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.trendhosting.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3D1150A5 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:33:26 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pocock.pro; s=mail; t=1445459606; bh=e5XZRDhpl5p7Pzr6K1l0nN1TfjmA/oRklc49XwOAtAo=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=ixok0llriGg/82xieD1qVwew7C4gDbx/LANQ1g5Jt9ypzFfvTqGEF/+8tjyhZ6V/w 9vkGu6nRAJ6+KDEne1vaJv7Qpm/phTgSJO0LSZY+/IfMh1WcleWydOKI/86kXNmnjZ 5a5XRqUQdE4v4+1lW9mtVO3X95EdVQyt+Ulsew1g= Received: from mail1.trendhosting.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (thp003.trendhosting.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id JuOtAYgY0KPN for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:33:06 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <5627F681.3010601@pocock.pro> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=pocock.pro; s=mail; t=1445459586; bh=e5XZRDhpl5p7Pzr6K1l0nN1TfjmA/oRklc49XwOAtAo=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=WdHY9q6qDOIC3HoxsQ/UI34hbkpVRzgWIRPDgI/AIo6Dd/JIDghx/soxmTIyCJoPh ktLTgWfT49psmnke8B3wD45tHhIYr3zEjSh20XkqxYzQbdmypVoseCXclQtLHNkcMJ 56kq+MkTm5PPcU18PanFqM01r8Rz8WUyxlLzof9U= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 22:33:05 +0200 From: Daniel Pocock User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tram@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] HA1 vs HA1b with TURN X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:33:30 -0000 I've been working with a few projects that use the "HA1b" for DIGEST and HMAC, e.g. HA1 = H(user:realm:password) HA1b = H(user@domain:realm:password) where domain (sometimes) == realm When a client is configured (user enters their SIP or XMPP address and their password for the first time), the client doesn't really know if it should use the HA1 or HA1b approach. Many default to HA1 but give the user the option to manually configure an auth username. Furthermore, when a SIP client sends a request, the request includes things like a request URI, From and To headers that allow the server or proxy to work out which realm to challenge with (if it supports more than one realm). The initial request to a TURN server doesn't give such clues, consequently, the TURN server typically just has a single realm. RFC 5389 s10.2.1.1 specifies that the client should not send username or realm values with the first request to the server. It is in these scenarios that HA1b can be particularly useful for virtual hosting on a single TURN server on a single UDP port. Therefore, a few things come to mind: - could the client send some attribute in the first request (RFC 5389 s10.2.1.1) to inform the TURN server about the full username@domain? - could the TURN server challenge include some attribute telling the client to use the HA1b approach? From nobody Wed Oct 21 14:12:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BCC41B30B1 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NGuxRjoEHMxh for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FAF61B30B9 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicfx6 with SMTP id fx6so109332200wic.1 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=jQNZ6X2uqHjr0+v9iFbHUfXB/mHCO7ULcMMxwCNT8iw=; b=XjoLl4iP+/L75impYQraTbKkWqb0az5hClYFGb1ClEjqF6Bg5pjZEo8RFZNyX0t46B N9UlkCfxPIkb2/FM4pT+4ieaw88wYNNTjY67ltsY7P+Ow58kYdnLWfiuNpcIdTwNqLWv V5xrpClj9KlsgMfufcJbclcS/Fg65pleKCEv+wJYBCo8VmIZns7VHXFBWLVMZUN9qtNc h2Onk9HtsJQV2WWfYZA38FJQ97oyzEf0fNAK+IdPvW9XmRD7GGCOKEJUeLBpRfg7WL0q D9t0vfPXs9224bQRsrlRgjbvcnit43rgErc2YoyXGPzFOdEUqgnuybj0/bzhoBP33138 XOTA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.39.178 with SMTP id q18mr12985441wik.57.1445461971201; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.178.162 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5627F681.3010601@pocock.pro> References: <5627F681.3010601@pocock.pro> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:12:51 -0700 Message-ID: From: Oleg Moskalenko To: Daniel Pocock Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] HA1 vs HA1b with TURN X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:12:54 -0000 Hi Daniel please see below: On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote: > > > I've been working with a few projects that use the "HA1b" for DIGEST and > HMAC, e.g. > > HA1 = H(user:realm:password) > > HA1b = H(user@domain:realm:password) > where domain (sometimes) == realm > > When a client is configured (user enters their SIP or XMPP address and > their password for the first time), the client doesn't really know if it > should use the HA1 or HA1b approach. Many default to HA1 but give the > user the option to manually configure an auth username. > > Furthermore, when a SIP client sends a request, the request includes > things like a request URI, From and To headers that allow the server or > proxy to work out which realm to challenge with (if it supports more > than one realm). The initial request to a TURN server doesn't give such > clues, consequently, the TURN server typically just has a single realm. > RFC 5389 s10.2.1.1 specifies that the client should not send username > or realm values with the first request to the server. It is in these > scenarios that HA1b can be particularly useful for virtual hosting on a > single TURN server on a single UDP port. > > Therefore, a few things come to mind: > > - could the client send some attribute in the first request (RFC 5389 > s10.2.1.1) to inform the TURN server about the full username@domain? there is ORIGIN draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06 that is the attribute that you are looking for - it allows building a server that supports multiple realms. I am not sure about its future, but coturn supports that functionality. Also, there is a third-party authorization RFC 7635 that also allows multiple realms, but it is rather different from the usual scheme. But the TURN server is never using HA1b, that is not a standard feature. With ORIGIN, you may have same user names in different realms, and those users exist independently because all data and the authentication are using realm as part of the key. > > - could the TURN server challenge include some attribute telling the > client to use the HA1b approach? Not in the current scheme. > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 21 14:29:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9638C1ACEA2 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U5Q1VwBTeXKp for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-f44.google.com (mail-oi0-f44.google.com [209.85.218.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19D761B312D for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oiev17 with SMTP id v17so37217479oie.2 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DIMFuig5q+5oBIjfX9stgL2qjQHssjlOCvSpbCy/6Ss=; b=EOctuvqUED6qjZ0+3P5AQf70+EZwNNk0bysqyCEa8uPA5Lrs7L05KuJCiVU9//hhTb lkckXfl0FlqWINnup2uqIQFV8VVkdn+LXRqlNiYYumL1B09OIhhljv/jObsBr7wrK9cS 9WabRcvixINgtmqx690G4NL37HG/zgtyjVnAzv3xJU5q7/4xQkwA3sTzb3bsZ801dThG JwHSsAcCw+5hHRUnNTDGEX6hrLJDlsI9qzAnRGr8iTiVWRNtpQnQAW9tJyjyYz1+L5jf BvE2b27yDhe+/r8OSPjpgnzIN8wuas3wG8qK7YoL7ir0xe/xZjKcn+hZ+iJm2ffX0nHs PLkg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQntV8U0gZl8hI89T4z/9IlPKBOAnp8TNC4XrDAxO7Iq8SbgPI7xouhujvlxuDcvc4FM6Hmo X-Received: by 10.202.194.9 with SMTP id s9mr7622199oif.56.1445462952346; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aither.local (c-73-34-202-214.hsd1.co.comcast.net. [73.34.202.214]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t7sm4459189obd.14.2015.10.21.14.29.10 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:29:11 -0700 (PDT) To: tram@ietf.org From: Peter Saint-Andre - &yet Message-ID: <562803A5.3040607@andyet.net> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 15:29:09 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] "local configuration" in draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:29:14 -0000 draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery says: 1. Local Configuration : Local or manual TURN configuration i.e., TURN servers configured at the system level. For example, in case of Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview] usages and related extensions, which are based on web applications, a Java Script specified TURN server MUST be considered as local configuration. An implementation MAY give the user an opportunity (e.g., by means of configuration file options or menu items) to specify a TURN server for each address family. It strikes me that TURN servers communicated to the user agent through code obtained from a WebRTC service (or found via an XMPP server using XEP-0215 [1]) are not "configured at the system level", they are known at the application level. Saying that such a TURN server is configured makes it sound as if this is something that a user might need to specify manually before connecting to the service, whereas in practice it's something that the application learns as one aspect of the user's session with service. I can suggest alternative wording if desired. Peter [1] http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0215.html From nobody Wed Oct 21 16:15:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1401B2BA0 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUQhyfdtRNHe for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:15:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1B0F1B2B78 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:15:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1836; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445469357; x=1446678957; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=R1TD8Z2vEUZjU/I3ZpsIun0wCF6DZ2Fb8/21A8aWTgY=; b=mXlIHSgt0xPAvUU0Togw9016A1Yl2RR/ZEh7JXqI9ZRuZHGmOG/GNLTj xgB2SnYhIwisHxHUQuDfnos72OaNJkXzQxMMNpkqWZpARYRuhyGetYw9f o2SmITkZph4TxSbBX/ZlJ/jiuBrSKTa/R//Vu9JORXgoiSPjCXdWSCf+x g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AwAgBPHChW/5JdJa1dgzZUbwa+DQENgVkXCoV8AoFCOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqELwEBBAEBAWsbAgEIRicLJQIEARKIMA3EIwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEahneEfoRCTQWELgWNTIhbAYUYiAWCIJoBAR8BAUKCER2BVXKFPYEGAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,179,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="199272192" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Oct 2015 23:15:47 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com (xch-rcd-013.cisco.com [173.37.102.23]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9LNFlYT018350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:15:47 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:15:27 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com ([173.37.102.25]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:15:27 -0500 From: "Prashanth Patil (praspati)" To: Peter Saint-Andre - &yet , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] "local configuration" in draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery Thread-Index: AQHRDFZfILBsXqa7S0Kfy1JNmJv/2w== Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:15:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <562803A5.3040607@andyet.net> In-Reply-To: <562803A5.3040607@andyet.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.85.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <2B540B287570C4438A564E3345DF4958@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] "local configuration" in draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:15:58 -0000 Hi Peter, You=B9re right, "configured at the system level=B2 is not appropriate. What about =B3configured by the user=B2? This would also include TURN servers suggested by an application, but approved by the user. Did you have a better alternative in mind? -Prashanth On 10/21/15, 2:29 PM, "tram on behalf of Peter Saint-Andre - &yet" wrote: >draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery says: > > 1. Local Configuration : Local or manual TURN configuration i.e., > TURN servers configured at the system level. For example, in > case of Web Real-Time Communication (WebRTC) > [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-overview] usages and related extensions, which > are based on web applications, a Java Script specified TURN > server MUST be considered as local configuration. An > implementation MAY give the user an opportunity (e.g., by means > of configuration file options or menu items) to specify a TURN > server for each address family. > >It strikes me that TURN servers communicated to the user agent through >code obtained from a WebRTC service (or found via an XMPP server using >XEP-0215 [1]) are not "configured at the system level", they are known >at the application level. Saying that such a TURN server is configured >makes it sound as if this is something that a user might need to specify >manually before connecting to the service, whereas in practice it's >something that the application learns as one aspect of the user's >session with service. > >I can suggest alternative wording if desired. > >Peter > >[1] http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0215.html > >_______________________________________________ >tram mailing list >tram@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Wed Oct 21 23:12:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6451B2F14 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IKY0cTA-ofqB for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 283EF1B377C for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pacfv9 with SMTP id fv9so81086406pac.3 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=UyXfvHG+rup4iZc6iem0wqU/UH9yoOxaG0BzGqCkG7Y=; b=IIaf+h4M7pwQjxARY12jBO5AhSjEnlJ/5zvfBB2BidLzUzQhII0vSY7jdoBSFTDCQ7 pF+Uv3GLks+TGB13qkJ03pP+t30fl7TdwQeLOhaKlIneWDap8Ep3/Wk1hy/vWX7V6UMh h8uEIB0krs2ihvCXkkFsfhwm1YWyi47qf/4JBV2G3kkLGonf2FC5t0Dj9V/Z25hSE0mI udHE7tIhrw/bG2VZtbP4MI4Ndk9KIRcP6SOTL0I3SlJACEuW2mSI3SQbf1e8d163CtwA nDy9TGrl2oYqEZF1rmVQ1V67AeIdUu8IRaGJ5xhbJS8HWfN6Z5OU0S/qQD+HHfOrJeq6 TnoQ== X-Received: by 10.68.102.2 with SMTP id fk2mr15220143pbb.129.1445494329755; Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.9] (c-73-42-162-82.hsd1.wa.comcast.net. [73.42.162.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id it10sm12271241pbc.14.2015.10.21.23.12.09 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alan Johnston X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13A452) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 23:12:08 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <06FF81F8-98B3-482F-82D1-252447D19F80@gmail.com> References: <5627F681.3010601@pocock.pro> To: Oleg Moskalenko Archived-At: Cc: Daniel Pocock , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] HA1 vs HA1b with TURN X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 06:12:12 -0000 I agree that STUN ORIGIN could work for this.=20 I have revised the draft based on list discussion and think these changes wi= ll resolve the DISCUSSes blocking the draft. Feedback from the working group on whether this is the best path forward for= STUN Origin would be helpful.=20 - Alan - > On Oct 21, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Oleg Moskalenko wrote: >=20 > Hi Daniel >=20 > please see below: >=20 >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Daniel Pocock wrote:= >>=20 >>=20 >> I've been working with a few projects that use the "HA1b" for DIGEST and >> HMAC, e.g. >>=20 >> HA1 =3D H(user:realm:password) >>=20 >> HA1b =3D H(user@domain:realm:password) >> where domain (sometimes) =3D=3D realm >>=20 >> When a client is configured (user enters their SIP or XMPP address and >> their password for the first time), the client doesn't really know if it >> should use the HA1 or HA1b approach. Many default to HA1 but give the >> user the option to manually configure an auth username. >>=20 >> Furthermore, when a SIP client sends a request, the request includes >> things like a request URI, =46rom and To headers that allow the server or= >> proxy to work out which realm to challenge with (if it supports more >> than one realm). The initial request to a TURN server doesn't give such >> clues, consequently, the TURN server typically just has a single realm. >> RFC 5389 s10.2.1.1 specifies that the client should not send username >> or realm values with the first request to the server. It is in these >> scenarios that HA1b can be particularly useful for virtual hosting on a >> single TURN server on a single UDP port. >>=20 >> Therefore, a few things come to mind: >>=20 >> - could the client send some attribute in the first request (RFC 5389 >> s10.2.1.1) to inform the TURN server about the full username@domain? >=20 > there is ORIGIN draft: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-origin-06 >=20 > that is the attribute that you are looking for - it allows building a > server that supports multiple realms. I am not sure about its future, > but coturn supports that functionality. >=20 > Also, there is a third-party authorization RFC 7635 that also allows > multiple realms, but it is rather different from the usual scheme. >=20 > But the TURN server is never using HA1b, that is not a standard > feature. With ORIGIN, you may have same user names in different > realms, and those users exist independently because all data and the > authentication are using realm as part of the key. >=20 >>=20 >> - could the TURN server challenge include some attribute telling the >> client to use the HA1b approach? >=20 > Not in the current scheme. >=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Thu Oct 22 05:26:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3371B367F; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sUwQlweJr6t8; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E155F1B367E; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vkfw189 with SMTP id w189so45281014vkf.2; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=7t6F/RKomxEkaGPuwarcn5Y3RkurMbnY3CTNqxuxGlQ=; b=TaBN+XUGnw+s6aXSp3kmKUur0zNbEzWwzwCqfG9y1VTb0Xj6W8q9H7V2UUh4sLo3+3 LOmp6IxsSLqJrGDZeT6W1uzQuQuwkhZqc8JoYVgEzu4NXBY0y9rCM/FVNMq6KvDdEYKX ebbXl9lch82XSaEW9nhtTtpFlIa51XGMo6yZNWYc3QUdJnyV7f9GYJdYbYovlLe1GZ5C mPnOCjQBc6EC24QKq2mKe+T+N1lNS8G8Y+iiRUoTGkehvBBkAHu9BQh7+TgDzWx0BuKZ ijuvmyNAPrlDed1J9x/kT7Nnt8vmYwrMdfTLvh9Zk93v1Wt46bqhD+n5mjmKSbM0XuxD OEag== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.8.77 with SMTP id 74mr8045137vki.67.1445516755024; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.54.8 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Oct 2015 05:25:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20151015150011.21377.95567.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:25:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF To: Alissa Cooper Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1145507eb344470522b0983a Archived-At: Cc: "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-tram-01-01: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:25:58 -0000 --001a1145507eb344470522b0983a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear TRAM Chairs, On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Alissa, > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Alissa Cooper wrote: > >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tram/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt >> with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has >> related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used >> only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN >> generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard called >> out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the >> working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of >> the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or something >> like that. >> > > I agree, and the folks who have chimed in on your previous DISCUSS seem to > agree as well. > > I note that the just-approved ICE charter contains multiple examples of > both realtime media and non-realtime media protocols that rely on ICE, and > consequently on TURN. > > I stole those examples, and did an update (the URL for a diff is at > http://tinyurl.com/ngje4tw). > > Could you let me know if I'm accurately reflecting what you're hoping for? > > Thanks! > > Spencer > Alissa, being a better woman than I am, is bravely slogging through this week's ICANN meeting, so hasn't had a chance to comment on my proposed text, and I'd like to close with her before sending the approval note. But what we're talking about is how we describe what TRAM is doing, not what TRAM is doing, and no one objected to your new deliverables, so please assume that you'll see an approval note Real Soon Now, as you plan for Yokohama. Spencer --001a1145507eb344470522b0983a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear TRAM Chairs,

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF = <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Alissa,

On Thu, Oct 15, = 2015 at 10:00 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position = for
charter-ietf-tram-01-01: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-tra= m/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My substantive point has to do with the scoping and use cases being dealt with in TRAM. I feel like some of the confusion over the TRAM drafts has related to whether the mechanisms being specified are expected to be used only within the WebRTC context or outside of it as well, for STUN/TURN
generally. I'd like to see a commitment to clarity in this regard calle= d
out in the charter. E.g., "In making updates to TURN and STUN, the
working group will clearly document the motivations and implications of
the updates both within the WebRTC context and more broadly" or someth= ing
like that.

I agree, and the= folks who have chimed in on your previous DISCUSS seem to agree as well.= =C2=A0

I note that the just-approved ICE charter c= ontains multiple examples of both realtime media and non-realtime media pro= tocols that rely on ICE, and consequently on TURN.

I stole those examples, and did an update (the URL for a diff is at http://tinyurl.com/ngje4= tw).

Could you let me know if I'm accurate= ly reflecting what you're hoping for?

Thanks!<= /div>

Spe= ncer=C2=A0

Alissa, being a bet= ter woman than I am, is bravely slogging through this week's ICANN meet= ing, so hasn't had a chance to comment on my proposed text, and I'd= like to close with her before sending the approval note. But what we'r= e talking about is how we describe what TRAM is doing, not what TRAM is doi= ng, and no one objected to your new deliverables, so please assume that you= 'll see an approval note Real Soon Now, as you plan for Yokohama.
=

Spencer
--001a1145507eb344470522b0983a-- From nobody Fri Oct 23 12:04:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1821A86F2 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qej0Uepq8_2C for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF571A6FAD for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2139F433411 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:04:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B890433402 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:04:28 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1445627068; bh=EHUink/YtpTOtaDsCxnekYAwHayJ31b8tk8WifAnDLk=; l=1129; h=To:From:Date:From; b=FUn5GqnbqXuDeVHmwpXExBBMDMpxDym4qWfDIBxTBN8I2x6/hbT3yNfp2lp8blcka RDeZxF0WJs+whuIwFrPcD2ftqfuMUsroXEUb6fANokKQiXgE5VYgd5u7uD/JdAMVkZ TSuzDMfHN49F1NcwrWZDSWEnnYW2BxEpzTkB9BbI= Received: from [172.28.113.245] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.113.245]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05EFD2055 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:04:28 +0000 (GMT) To: "tram@ietf.org" From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <562A84BB.20603@akamai.com> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 15:04:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tram] draft-williams-peer-redirect-04 available for review X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:04:30 -0000 Hi all, I lost track of the pre-meeting submission tracker cut-off, and so didn't get v04 of this draft submitted in time. It will open up again on November 1, and I will submit the update at that point. In the mean time, the chairs had already been good enough to schedule a short slot for me to present the updates, and I want to make sure that anyone who is inclined to read the docs before the meeting has the opportunity to read the draft that I will present. I have temporarily posted it to my Google drive. text: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9RPEOFG4za4c1hDXzZPX2NVSVk/view pdf: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9RPEOFG4za4S203VTBrMUZ2bVk/view I apologize for making this complicated. I'll update the tracker as soon as it reopens. --Brandon PS: Here's a summary of the changes: * Introduced Redirect indication to redefine the mechanism as push-like notification. * Moved CHECK-ALTERNATE to Allocation request. * Added a short section on ICE interactions. * Changed STUN reference to STUNbis, since the doc now references STUNbis content. Left other references as they are. From nobody Sun Oct 25 19:52:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B0B1B3562 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JdZ82HiOGTVy for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1EF41B3561 for ; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:51:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=24614; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1445827919; x=1447037519; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=l/3aFCz74gJBPmNsoHQR4+uj0wAbED0PLy9reNY4Oak=; b=bBcppv1qu5g2RipqLqrkNAk7H5GHx9LpgPnO2gf7ktTiCF5eEL3mbRWk 8yef74nIHvP4RFrHagm4Y00OMpO5fwM7bJqSQKpqWt7fUwM4KbCutp+mb KGwLdvCB2RXmR07shzvlKu/6w659iFqISk08ll5tW9V+kkdboiRAsYUzO I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D3AQBolC1W/4oNJK1egmlNVG8GvjYBDYFaFwELhXoCHIEBOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEMgEBAQQBAQEgCkEJAgwEAgEIDgMDAQEBGQ8DAgICJQsUCQgBAQQOBQiIKA2yIpFvAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIZ3hH6EQjAKDQQGAQYDEIJQgUUFjRiJHgGFG4d/gWBIg3eSJ4NvAREOAQFCghEdFoE/coYSgQYBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,199,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="44043070" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2015 02:51:58 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t9Q2pwpe000597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Oct 2015 02:51:58 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:51:35 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:51:35 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Thread-Index: AdEHFg9Qw09eYMw0TQ2oj7oWdbheyQAcWOUAAgRHW+A= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 02:51:35 +0000 Message-ID: <750cf2e670f74b5381a51bc43d419d68@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.41.148] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_750cf2e670f74b5381a51bc43d419d68XCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 25 Oct 2015 22:02:01 -0500 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Brandon Williams , Justin Uberti Thread-Topic: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt Thread-Index: AdEHFg9Qw09eYMw0TQ2oj7oWdbheyQAYp9wAAggmFaA= Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:02:01 +0000 Message-ID: <91598d090c6f499d835770b2469289df@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <86c7182c5cb942799c73a88aa115328c@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <561FAC54.2020605@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <561FAC54.2020605@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.41.148] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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