From nobody Wed Feb 1 12:37:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FB01299F8 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X4oWUeRX6-yj for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22e.google.com (mail-yw0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CAAD1299F6 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v200so74405986ywc.3 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:37:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ocnE5mBjOMLxDFnVgG4PIYFSHqi4oOu1zdtLk5rI48Q=; b=mwEgTpgFcRYqCcW96pLtpJX4v4pTw8pp/sqH+BuhuEsjVumyMwRs33hZ7v3+o1SiXN c13J64sAY8hRJUsm3NF2KGfM8FzO8iUs20BrBRgnDZlj6oVOpW6cttvewSv8quqwXDzv 8WFFKZctX3qmLY7JHNyanvStt1aKFEaMWVGU3qEIRftjtYWEVwacND45rAnseooFB6OS SeQdqXVriJw8b8z9EUEA93OJGwXYyHKooxOBQTNNMBjfx0phENNa6Jsd6jFbIOEZRbPy 7nREc99eYghbvE2BZoJ7ncZlU7ecyy0lY/A3hCfl30IA2Bd2t8c/qgG54n7ovpdaBsuH gDmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ocnE5mBjOMLxDFnVgG4PIYFSHqi4oOu1zdtLk5rI48Q=; b=O5wykvfEFxD4Sm6HMZpwGFHF740NGDiEYR7xWZN9KTXgtMOAoL3qRxMBnWWRb4/muP FcNJmxd2qHaUENoSQDZlomo2iS5w0Hd253aBxCvOJUZcVzY5xpzTjedEDU70aXIqczK2 wLtN8eg/pRbaXCuIvbf0RWAYPat8sAW/C+dv0vujVGiCA9qPDG1wkthnvNtdv5Ks2VEn xzaBMOZs3FJnmnYzifz1JvIvzzDKPmsuGM2VmlrMonfA1XNuDF/8czI4akiWp1fmt9xr FYkC8kolisHpqBBL0T3Icz3j0arZsLNkkXzwU4PJk+Kwxb2fmKztXyx7AkEMf0norMVB 3S+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXId4ETlfLmCe0ayg4U3OK6If+NZyRMslm9YIUJjTP/HRy/txZZg8sQAyIepE/KcLbAI2HU8cPPTBdrMMw== X-Received: by 10.129.137.6 with SMTP id z6mr3094422ywf.19.1485981474728; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 12:37:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.221.132 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 12:37:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 05:37:54 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c06a7aef1db1105477e05c1 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 20:37:57 -0000 --94eb2c06a7aef1db1105477e05c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear TRAMsters, On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > -Tiru > How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? Thanks, Spencer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > > drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 9:28 AM > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > > Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. > > > > Title : TURN Server Auto Discovery > > Authors : Prashanth Patil > > Tirumaleswar Reddy > > Dan Wing > > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > Pages : 16 > > Date : 2017-01-12 > > > > Abstract: > > Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server discovery > > mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit > > configuration. These are usually under the administrative control of > > the application or TURN service provider, and not the enterprise, > > ISP, or the network in which the client is located. Enterprises and > > ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto discovery > > mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minimal > > configuration. This document describes three such mechanisms for > > TURN server discovery. > > > > This draft updates [RFC5766] to relax the requirement for mutual > > authentication in certain cases. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ > > > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn- > server-discovery-12 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > --94eb2c06a7aef1db1105477e05c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear TRAMsters,

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tire= ddy) <tireddy@cisco.com> wrote:
This revision addresses comments from Brandon.

-Tiru

How close are we to asking Terry = to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

Thanks,

Spencer=C2=A0


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounc= es@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 9:28 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=
> Cc: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery= -12.txt
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories.
> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IE= TF.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: TURN Server Auto Discovery
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0: Prashanth Patil
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tirumaleswar Reddy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dan Wing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 16
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2017-01-12
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server d= iscovery
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration.=C2=A0 These are usually under the administ= rative control of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the application or TURN service provider, and not the ent= erprise,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISP, or the network in which the client is located.=C2=A0= Enterprises and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto = discovery
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minima= l
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration.=C2=A0 This document describes three such m= echanisms for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TURN server discovery.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This draft updates [RFC5766] to relax the requirement for= mutual
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication in certain cases.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.or= g/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram
_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

--94eb2c06a7aef1db1105477e05c1-- From nobody Wed Feb 1 13:00:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AB4129550 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:00:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1W7m47qbBhi for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FB061299E9 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 189so121247497pfu.3 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:00:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=24c+6JFNr3DKkJHYDz96VL+W+YvDX9vxsyVptdX59uw=; b=Jnqu808WI3MDc3pBF4EtTWbQRaqM07WGPHuZdYE+Aah5CHJt1zE/9mtWNfp8pUNdpD DEs2KQADyp176Tt1UGsV3ujbFZcvCcSr9aUqIvk93c8OeEYsfP2CtY1HCd2iehyFWDgt 9+tyZaxQ/gX2vP/Fby6HDOURCNi7kyDayYlA+xunZqS1jnFkQ5vf1Ykyy09RT6tiH222 2xqM16lZ6up/Msx+rHdyaec/nbLGnKY7kE9yLmAEraWs15hImVyYQZWHKfs4865At4Tm nMjH7tqcJGNaZrOzBHzUIoqVuFBteDFy2Crf9F3WCXK5LPjAbm82qYHHFhMVhzLgMB6k j8dw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=24c+6JFNr3DKkJHYDz96VL+W+YvDX9vxsyVptdX59uw=; b=m0Dloaatex022CFAJffSaPeOrSbVuE73+z+HCydq/h35/fiWDWURo8leIqJDMSbyd8 jn+EKUnsNm5h76rsX0+V3fy3sXs/qgCHI8d28LfGSXLNnpHORi0p+9foNwuchvn16bjx WxFSfZdWJVeQYhkuAO4lm+CxgZnFkP4xjp6rP23I39QP44wUVFUVcBNyzopkqxzTyP+h GSZM1Y3MZBhHEzeQE06+YZWgOF5mseyjq5pGVFxzeQu/nrjwbRfc0uitcXl0J79NdvdG 9P8Fn8vaPUTI29erSSo+M0f3E+YpM67CJScLv2rhulEbl081HgydtAOVjA74aehgeMcI 5zrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ5IZgvFnSPsjmKjVersMkqIVp9/ggsKm5SBw7VMVn9DsZ4LS3G94AzCkt9F7xHcJTZtnboKdAhI/48j1cKE0GTJRIBe+QIzu64KS0RGmRs72lrcFv3ObVHhtuSdKD0HKxNGMDjK1SMqt1C2tnHUoAxWLAqttczGP6T1/g= X-Received: by 10.84.215.149 with SMTP id l21mr7444853pli.16.1485982842647; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-Simon.local ([2001:470:b161:0:ac59:25a9:d98d:ef8f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 184sm52504742pgj.5.2017.02.01.13.00.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Simon Perreault Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 16:00:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:00:46 -0000 Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > Dear TRAMsters, > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > wrote: > > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > -Tiru > > > How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? Thanks for the reminder. If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. -- Simon Perreault Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com From nobody Wed Feb 1 13:11:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE311299F2 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:11:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkBdO0swsl7V for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3816812958D for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id w75so75615937ywg.1 for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:11:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8nkB9QIfyL8CsrsQgKoixfnY/MxVzCHNhpXl7HKmYLs=; b=fVmQhsxE5RzBVsl0C+PWaTxzEq5JpzWUxjBXeQXFCVGPwgi6pGRvdnGNyE0Tii8v3X OANl8In0aGo4BLMU93/XzSKD9DlROITcD+pFrrTKUd+XyZgKMmslZlSTfFnpzQWUKPM6 EO8X1IqeASV+v4UzA2SS+Eg3Mj6D+9yY2VvNp30WGdMSE9BiYKnyz/JB3xQdlMlNtnyA oQV2kRF9pI+FRezyLbMEyw6OLRwdYlx6xTPMbcbpKrDpF2drMoKcBfGNCZsNne9S6YPc oxHiAZ0Er65q4wzsbpKb1/vxkZ6/JlQu98iEAOr1f9mbs4u80A7yb+ZXuLC+4pqHUuC6 zQHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8nkB9QIfyL8CsrsQgKoixfnY/MxVzCHNhpXl7HKmYLs=; b=B11hAOpX13hbPDTKZlzFTo2z7jkZV5hz1hdA33BV19qLYgs2mFoiU+JqCmiYpl14zb WzMStgMAQzhePauEj0MefcturomyTa0vCSTMWlJpnh1GWSmYwUmxXJHOfdXHSA8vNvnl ZP8jW1kAJOMQ6RV7q/l7lbXe8LzzyTg8j5QFXH8Hmfhv6yQBYzs5cnJGDBlvmwL6H97j wt008ATqCAi78I0f9QVLTiAiMpNY7JiypRJJcmZbsh5cmXz9WmZO/OrVRYs2mWxHc7GI V3meE5A2SWPNISf6NDLmJMXU1unEkH0Qf/FiosF1qLTEI9DSEg/pBkgdjvHnoBSv7UTp GoHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIFPVue+SEDmSzopgVxNNxIRfBuHhDBTAjG4+FEDZ8TUSTDQjyPgdV2K3KIPJ7rECxPu7PWxUbqwpb9VQ== X-Received: by 10.13.204.18 with SMTP id o18mr3208831ywd.347.1485983515475; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 13:11:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.221.132 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:11:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 06:11:55 +0900 Message-ID: To: Simon Perreault Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114edf2495091005477e7f63 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:11:57 -0000 --001a114edf2495091005477e7f63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Simon, On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault wrote= : > Le 2017-02-01 =C3=A0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > > Dear TRAMsters, > > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > > wrote: > > > > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > Thanks for the reminder. > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping Terry. It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) Spencer --001a114edf2495091005477e7f63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Simon,

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault <sperreault@ji= ve.com> wrote:
Le 2017-02-01 =C3=A0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > Dear TRAMsters,
>
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
> <tired= dy@cisco.com <mailto:tireddy@ci= sco.com>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This revision addresses comments from Brandon.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Tiru
>
>
> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS= ?

Thanks for the reminder.

If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready.<= /blockquote>

I'll give this 24 hours for people to c= hime in, but I do want to ping Terry.=C2=A0

It'= ;s a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when ADs go = away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 for appro= val, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-)
Spencer=C2=A0
--001a114edf2495091005477e7f63-- From nobody Wed Feb 1 17:53:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE59129613 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:53:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.199, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9b8FdDqLHB6q for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 967D91295B9 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 17:53:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1077; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1486000418; x=1487210018; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=syog6B9d933Oiq+C/AgMNHpl/VEFfLykMywcxCvAw3o=; b=WTwuMb5jWRtsOXL/E1hYJqe+GriBPp26DxYkfRk4L/kwgGjZncfYBv94 qQL62vssfv3REZUxA126AaI9pELYnwvpUEw4EM9m39h5iljsOsrbzEzF/ jLq6zgzpyoPFVv3qIoWM0osIyGqaPESLBXUAVV+ZJQ110x2Bfrk97Ar7v o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ASAQAmkJJY/5tdJa1aAxkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYNTYYEJB41YkgiIDI0pgg0ihgACgkA/GAECAQEBAQEBAWIohGk?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEEeQwEAgEIDgMEAQEBJwchERQJCAIEAQ0FCIlSAxWvIIc7DYNlAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGAWGS4RvglGBZjcmhR4Fj3aLLjgBhmaHBYQOkQaKKYh?= =?us-ascii?q?XAR84gUsVhn11h12BDAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.33,322,1477958400"; d="scan'208";a="380233784" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Feb 2017 01:53:37 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v121rbUk011370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Feb 2017 01:53:37 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 19:53:37 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 19:53:37 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Simon Perreault , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSbVE745AQY+EJAkeNyRjXn1tSz6E1x/uwgB9YGACAAAZZgP//7AaQ Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 01:53:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.54.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 01:53:40 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 2:31 AM > To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF ; Tirumaleswar > Reddy (tireddy) > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.= txt >=20 > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > Dear TRAMsters, > > > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > > wrote: > > > > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > > > -Tiru > > > > > > How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? >=20 > Thanks for the reminder. >=20 > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. Yup, draft is ready from our side. Cheers, -Tiru >=20 > -- > Simon Perreault > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com From nobody Wed Feb 1 21:16:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CED126579; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:16:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5PDocQ4zgbU; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:16:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb0-x233.google.com (mail-yb0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CF2A1293DF; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb0-x233.google.com with SMTP id o65so1744717ybo.2; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:16:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PTMPwJK+kHny9OnzlrTE8Y+AoixRCEelu6pUgcj1c54=; b=Rc3zZcw6ztxTGEujL2PmmcFX1C9d5hIikBe/t+6YHyJujcslFp+r5PlTtmko9EQgKn JvdCnqCudz0EGifkLRiw5gh6XHA2fdDW2llwlNpltv2+rro5mkpZHX/25kNENXPKmYyG eBzW/8cRzRG0CqEFetYkp9JqdJnszwlU0K3o7yXaokNzzJJ6nFRwoHgWlht2I9Pd4DJo RMq+Mxf8MdF9CdYI521xvR3r5OJB6gRtePt92oPHFjef/+Gwgr6iLz9oAHSH4VYFpp0H H6nL8IgLIS7RQFbTbiRjb+7z/pkyStOjJrDV6WVmWZKemNt4doOv0CkGkWOKnpOCNs6v 4ejA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PTMPwJK+kHny9OnzlrTE8Y+AoixRCEelu6pUgcj1c54=; b=Izh/jDOd1gwLiHRBpfwvXNxKbC3flwEsaAsDn9TVIasF7y35ZSoRPtTQAN7oudlB5s oTagDrA3djUVjsUMpYwqlkyCL6t97IDtqvI+Po/GRnMup3RPELpRTDJ490UrU/MeYrFr 8X6MWJlGj+B7N2wRaero+PMqBduR92uacGroBigvmF0J1lWgjREoiqXvuOC4lPNf2QQv 8lLuhgip1faucPFOdHfxijYRxt45nb7wySC3xKrt+vRtLBgfugmBX0t7fDJU0117uL9h NmIKPSF9hjyapI445nhiapmi3vDcuN1owyKk8ateqBZ3qWayhs40kGfl4Ram9PGepEpc Dpcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKWm3Al+KtZAqe7XR/qj0NuCMfAfQ81313bIcoMZT5n/ImsTXOO3oMb6poBpvl2HgKfQjHJ0RL3XAuGQQ== X-Received: by 10.37.96.67 with SMTP id u64mr1541663ybb.12.1486012590791; Wed, 01 Feb 2017 21:16:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.221.132 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Feb 2017 21:16:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <147260615677.23780.12323446975574787038.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2017 14:16:30 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143edb09b221a054785449f Archived-At: Cc: "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery@ietf.org" , "sperreault@jive.com" , The IESG , Terry Manderson Subject: Re: [tram] Terry Manderson's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 05:16:36 -0000 --001a1143edb09b221a054785449f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, Terry, On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Terry, > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < > tireddy@cisco.com> wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Terry Manderson [mailto:terry.manderson@icann.org] >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:46 AM >> > To: The IESG >> > Cc: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery@ietf.org; Simon Perreault >> > ; tram-chairs@ietf.org; sperreault@jive.com; >> > tram@ietf.org >> > Subject: Terry Manderson's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-di >> scovery- >> > 09: (with DISCUSS) >> > >> > Terry Manderson has entered the following ballot position for >> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09: Discuss >> > >> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email >> > addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory >> > paragraph, however.) >> > >> > >> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat >> ement/discuss-criteria.html >> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> > >> > >> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ >> > >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > DISCUSS: >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > in requesting special use assignments, please read the registries and >> provide >> > guidance on the scope of the allocations i.e. >> > >> > o Source - A boolean value indicating whether an address from the >> > allocated special-purpose address block is valid when used as the >> > source address of an IP datagram that transits two devices. >> > >> > o Destination - A boolean value indicating whether an address from >> > the allocated special-purpose address block is valid when used as >> > the destination address of an IP datagram that transits two >> > devices. >> > >> > o Forwardable - A boolean value indicating whether a router may >> > forward an IP datagram whose destination address is drawn from the >> > allocated special-purpose address block between external >> > interfaces. >> > >> > o Global - A boolean value indicating whether an IP datagram whose >> > destination address is drawn from the allocated special-purpose >> > address block is forwardable beyond a specified administrative >> > domain. >> >> Thanks, updated draft. >> >> Cheers, >> -Tiru > > > It looks to me that -10 should address this Discuss. Could you take a look > and let us know? > > Thanks, > > Spencer > Could you take a look at https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt, and let us know if the updated draft addresses your discuss? I was thinking that it would ... Thanks, Spencer --001a1143edb09b221a054785449f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Terry,

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Terry,

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy= @cisco.com> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Manderson [mailto:terry.manderson@icann.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:46 AM
> To: The IESG <ie= sg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery@ietf.org; = Simon Perreault
> <sperreaul= t@jive.com>; tram-chairs@ietf.org; sperreault@jive.com;
> tram@ietf.org > Subject: Terry Manderson's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-= discovery-
> 09: (with DISCUSS)
>
> Terry Manderson has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all = email
> addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this intr= oductory
> paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/i= esg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
> DISCUSS:
> ------------------------------------------------------------= ----------
>
> in requesting special use assignments, please read the registries and = provide
> guidance on the scope of the allocations i.e.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source - A boolean value indicating whether an ad= dress from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allocated special-purpose address block is v= alid when used as the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source address of an IP datagram that transi= ts two devices.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Destination - A boolean value indicating whether = an address from
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the allocated special-purpose address block = is valid when used as
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the destination address of an IP datagram th= at transits two
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0devices.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Forwardable - A boolean value indicating whether = a router may
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forward an IP datagram whose destination add= ress is drawn from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0allocated special-purpose address block betw= een external
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interfaces.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Global - A boolean value indicating whether an IP= datagram whose
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination address is drawn from the alloca= ted special-purpose
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address block is forwardable beyond a specif= ied administrative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0domain.

Thanks, updated draft.

Cheers,
-Tiru

It looks to me that -10 s= hould address this Discuss. Could you take a look and let us know?

Thanks,

Spencer
=

Could you take a lo= ok at=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-serv= er-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt= , and let us know if the updated draft addresses your discuss? I was th= inking that it would ...

Thanks,

Spencer
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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2017 23:24:05 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01D27DB3.C935F420 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0023_01D27DB3.C9361B30" ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01D27DB3.C9361B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws = that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding = the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the = local or access network administrator, see https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html=20 =20 For the latest discussed, see =20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html=20 >> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > change. > [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and = (B), and improves (C) and (D). =20 Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the = change. =20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html=20 The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during = the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text = since version -7. =20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg = Moskalenko =20 =20 I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, = removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for = the author to copy from and paste. =20 Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 = (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not = meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated = TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and = =E2=80=9CMilestone 3: TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for = enterprise and ISPs=E2=80=9D =20 Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before = DISCUSS) changed the text =E2=80=9C 6. Discovery using Anycast = =E2=80=9C to: = = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =E2=80=9CIP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A = packet sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. =20 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to be done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=E2=80=9D =20 The highlighted =E2=80=9CA TURN anycast server=E2=80=9D is nothing = known nor described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, = one deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at = the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) for = this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon).=20 =20 The last sentence =E2=80=9CAn implementation may choose to send out = every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the = closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.=E2=80=9D violates security and deployment considerations (see = red lined considerations in attached). =20 Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before = DISCUSS) changed the text =E2=80=9C7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN = =E2=80=9C to: = = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =E2=80=9CWebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered = through the mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway or access network server, in accordance with Recursively Encapsulated TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].=E2=80=9D =20 The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN = servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers = discovered by this draft. =20 Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC! =20 I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now = and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict = Resolution and Appeals" process hinted about in https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, = further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and = especially for WebRTC. =20 /Karl=20 =20 Fr=C3=A5n: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] F=C3=B6r Spencer Dawkins at IETF Skickat: den 1 februari 2017 22:12 Till: Simon Perreault Kopia: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) =C3=84mne: Re: [tram] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi, Simon, =20 On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault < = sperreault@jive.com> wrote: Le 2017-02-01 =C3=A0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =C3=A9crit : > Dear TRAMsters, > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > < tireddy@cisco.com tireddy@cisco.com>> wrote: > > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > -Tiru > > > How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS? Thanks for the reminder. If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. =20 I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping = Terry.=20 =20 It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when = ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 = for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) =20 Spencer=20 ------=_NextPart_001_0023_01D27DB3.C9361B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Th= e -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws that = were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding the = possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the = local or access network administrator, see

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html =

 

Fo= r the latest discussed, see

 

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html =

&g= t;> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a

= > change.

= > [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) = of

= > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.= html

= > where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and (B), and improves (C) and (D).

 

Br= andon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the = change.

 

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html =

Th= e (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during = the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text = since version -7.

 

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

ST= UN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg = Moskalenko

 

 

I = have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, = removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for = the author to copy from and paste.

 

Wi= thout my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 = (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) =C2=A0and does = not meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated = TURN) (see under redlined 7.2)

an= d it does not do what was set out in the Charter and =E2=80=9CMilestone = 3: TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and = ISPs=E2=80=9D

 

Fu= rther, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before = DISCUSS)=C2=A0 changed the text =E2=80=9C=C2=A0 6.=C2=A0 Discovery using = Anycast =E2=80=9C to:

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-s= erver-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-1= 2.txt

=E2=80=9CIP anycast = can also be used for TURN service discovery.=C2=A0 A = packet

=C2=A0=C2=A0 sent = to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically

=C2=A0=C2=A0 nearest" network interface with the anycast = address.=C2=A0 Using the TURN

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = request to the assigned anycast address.=C2=A0 A TURN anycast = server

=C2=A0=C2=A0 performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of = [RFC5766].=C2=A0 If all

=C2=A0=C2=A0 checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond = with a 300 (Try

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of = [RFC5766]; The

=C2=A0=C2=A0 response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-SERVER

=C2=A0=C2=A0 attribute.=C2=A0 For subsequent communication with = the TURN server, the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 client uses the responding server's unicast = address.=C2=A0 This has to be

=C2=A0=C2=A0 done = because two packets addressed to an anycast address may = reach

=C2=A0=C2=A0 two = different anycast servers.=C2=A0 The client, thus, also needs = to

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ensure = that the initial request fits in a single packet.=C2=A0 = An

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = implementation may choose to send out every new TURN = Allocation

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the = most

=C2=A0=C2=A0 = optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.=E2=80=9D

 

Th= e hi= ghlighted =E2=80=9CA = TURN anycast server=E2= =80=9D=C2=A0 is = nothing known nor described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN = servers, one deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server = deployed at the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). =

 

Th= e last sentence =E2=80=9CAn=C2=A0 implementation may choose to send out = every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the = closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.=E2=80=9D violates security and deployment considerations (see = red lined considerations in attached).

 

Fu= rther, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before = DISCUSS)=C2=A0 changed the text =E2=80=9C7.2.=C2=A0 Recursively = Encapsulated TURN =E2=80=9C to:

https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-s= erver-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-1= 2.txt

=E2=80=9CWebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 mechanisms described in = this specification as an enterprise/gateway

=C2=A0=C2=A0 or access network server, in accordance with = Recursively Encapsulated

=C2=A0=C2=A0 TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].=E2=80=9D

 

Th= e text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN = servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers = discovered by this draft.

 

Cu= rrent -12 draft cannot be considered to be an = RFC!

 

I = suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now and = quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict Resolution and Appeals" = process hinted about in

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, = further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and = especially for WebRTC.

 

/K= arl

 

Fr=C3=A5n: tram = [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] = F=C3=B6r Spencer Dawkins at IETF
Skickat: den 1 = februari 2017 22:12
Till: Simon Perreault
Kopia: = tram@ietf.org; = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
=C3=84mne: Re: [tram] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

Hi, Simon,

 

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, = Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com> wrote:

Le 2017-02-01 =C3=A0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a = =C3=A9crit :
> Dear TRAMsters,
>
> On Fri, Jan 13, = 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
> <tireddy@cisco.com = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>> = wrote:
>
>     This revision addresses = comments from Brandon.
>
>    =  -Tiru
>
>
> How close are we to asking Terry to = clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

Thanks for the = reminder.

If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I = think we're ready.

 

I'll give this 24 hours for people = to chime in, but I do want to ping = Terry. 

 

It's a little-appreciated thing, = but AD ballot positions go away when ADs go away; this document has 12 = yes/no objections now, and you need 10 for approval, and three are from = ADs who are stepping down in March = ;-)

 

Spencer 

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From nobody Fri Feb 3 05:42:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A0F129CE8 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 05:42:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NaEFRgJeWx_u for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 05:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Feb 2017 05:42:33 -0800 (PST) To: Karl Stahl , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> From: Simon Perreault Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 08:42:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org, "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:42:40 -0000 Karl, There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. Thanks, Simon Le 2017-02-02 à 18:23, Karl Stahl a écrit : > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding > the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the > local or access network administrator, see > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> change. > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during > the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text > since version -7. > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg Moskalenko > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > the author to copy from and paste. > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and “Milestone 3: > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs” > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text “ 6. Discovery using Anycast “ to: > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > “IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the TURN > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to be > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” > > > > The highlighted “A TURN anycast server” isnothing known nor described > (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast address, > reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as > clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > The last sentence “An implementation may choose to send out every new > TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” violates > security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations in > attached). > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text “7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ to: > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through the > > mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively Encapsulated > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].” > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers > discovered by this draft. > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and > especially for WebRTC. > > > > /Karl > > > > *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > *Till:* Simon Perreault > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > wrote: > > Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : >> Dear TRAMsters, >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >> >> wrote: >> >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. >> >> -Tiru >> >> >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > Thanks for the reminder. > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > Terry. > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 > for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) > > > > Spencer > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Simon Perreault Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com From nobody Sat Feb 4 10:30:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A879A129DB5 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-3.199, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEjDzdKFaohP for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91C44129C1B for ; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 80C12B81127; Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:05:45 -0800 (PST) To: tireddy@cisco.com, praspati@cisco.com, rmohanr@cisco.com, justin@uberti.name, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, ietf@kuehlewind.net, gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com, sperreault@jive.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20170203150545.80C12B81127@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 07:05:45 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 04 Feb 2017 10:30:30 -0800 Cc: text/plain@rfc-editor.org, misi@niif.hu, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.orgContent-Type, tram@ietf.org, charset=UTF-8@rfc-editor.org Subject: [tram] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7635 (4923) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2017 15:05:46 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7635, "Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Extension for Third-Party Authorization". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7635&eid=4923 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Mészáros Mihály Section: Appendix B. Original Text ------------- "key":"v51N62OM65kyMvfTI08O" Corrected Text -------------- "key": "ew0KICAgICJrdHkiOiJvY3QiLA0KICAgICJ raWQiOiJpZDEyMyIsDQogICAgImFsZyI6IkhTMjU2IiwNCiAgIC AiayI6IlpvUlNPckZ6Tl9GelVBNVhLTVlvVkh5emZmNW9SSnhsL UlYUnR6dEo2dUUiDQp9" Notes ----- "key" according https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-02#section-4.2 "The 'key' parameter either contains a plain JWK structure or a JWK encrypted with a JWE." According Example Figure 2. "key" in draft-ietf-oauth-pop-key-distribution-02#section-4.2 It seems they missed to write plain JWK MUST be base64 format. So according the example coorected the above sentence: "The 'key' parameter either contains a plain BASE64 ENCODED JWK structure or a JWK encrypted with a JWE." Anyhow in RFC7635 Appendix B. the "key" seems to be not in base64 (JWK) or JWE encrypted JWK format. (Base64 decoded key value string is "Salted__"....) Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7635 (draft-ietf-tram-turn-third-party-authz-16) -------------------------------------- Title : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Extension for Third-Party Authorization Publication Date : August 2015 Author(s) : T. Reddy, P. Patil, R. Ravindranath, J. Uberti Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : TURN Revised and Modernized Area : Transport Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Mon Feb 6 02:10:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B023C129CD0 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2017 02:10:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ingate.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9tp6MyIxvVPv for ; 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Mon, 6 Feb 2017 10:10:22 +0000 From: Karl Stahl To: 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' , References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2017 11:10:19 +0100 Message-ID: <018401d28061$3a85dc80$af919580$@stahl@ingate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0185_01D28069.9C4A4480" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdJ+I2FjFNOJrt0iQ+uGtind2oQnuQBlT63Q Content-Language: sv X-Originating-IP: [90.227.80.227] X-ClientProxiedBy: HE1PR02CA0069.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.163.170.37) To AM4PR01MB1825.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.167.85.23) X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 6c8d4837-9e48-4d25-ecda-08d44e785d49 X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001);SRVR:AM4PR01MB1825; X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; AM4PR01MB1825; 3:DZyqUqcr9YRd1MEnEJQUWQwSrmAfeA/0bcGgzDRMIFQ7zNv9PifPvyU8xmDWr7p5fT4x5YapHWQUDAL0MQgn1BI4prmcsr0LJQmLFfwVaIIJDdnq4WcT34sJIT6VZXnvtnC7CzobDNHW7qbpmA1kL+ciMxaAeGKFaF9zBfYBH+pDQ81s4WzK9In8i2TyEuMO3ta6G1EkbEIuzGfA5iHRTVYB1eoNDouOni8/ErMCDShYM9dnbE4t7xIdSBAdep53c7OxI8QTBN5ehQ45l9gS0Q==; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 10:10:33 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0185_01D28069.9C4A4480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Simon, =20 There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, = but we have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, that = works for all cases, which no one has disputed as working and that is = technically superior.=20 =20 Further, it does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and what = is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted radically different by participating WG individuals. =20 Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version -10 ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html)=20 referenced https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9, which says: "This version of TURN has been designed to *permit the future = specification of a method* of doing anycast discovery of a TURN server over UDP. =20 Previous to my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the = DISCUSS) (in August, https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html) but = that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded responded, but from an authentication point of view, as if the method meant a mixture of = discovery and usage, which was confusing).=20 =20 During the DISCUSS, in response to my request to fix, Prashanth only = said: We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little = better: =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a = 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]=94 [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or does =93TURN anycast = server=94 imply that there ALSO is a =93TURN unicast server=94 at the same = interface accepting the Allocate request? =20 =20 That was never responded to and in your discussion with me: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html=20 [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP = addresses that > can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether = the > request was received on its anycast address or its unicast address, =20 [Simon] Correct. =20 [Karl]> and I > think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we really = have > TWO TURN servers to play with, =20 [Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment scenario. =20 [Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft -10 > text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making allocations. =20 [Simon] No, that would be wrong. =20 NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may be = in the author=92s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled = out), it is NOT the =93TWO LAN IP TURN servers=94 but the =93No, that would be wrong.=94-method that is intended, see these highlights in the -12 text! IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent to = an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. Using = the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request = to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to = 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766] . If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a = 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766] ; The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the client uses the responding server's unicast address. This = has to be done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach = two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that = the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server. I think other participants in the discussion, also interpret the -12 = text as the =93that would be wrong=94-variant, or even worse, a mixture of = discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come in (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html )).=20 =20 So, current version -12 meaning of text is probably not only = =93wrong=94, but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can have no consensus, nor can that be brought into an RFC. =20 =20 In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working anycast mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases = (which no one has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration =93in Alan = Johnston / Avaya style (compare https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2555)=94 where any = party can use the proposed anycast method (for which patent was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as long as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us. My IPR Declaration related to this = I-D should appear in day (said when submitting). =20 /Karl =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com]=20 Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Karl, =20 There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. =20 Thanks, Simon =20 Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest = regarding > the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided = the > local or access network administrator, see >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html >=20 > =20 >=20 > For the latest discussed, see >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html >=20 >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a >=20 >> change. >=20 >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html >=20 >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and > (B), and improves (C) and (D). >=20 > =20 >=20 > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the = change. >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html >=20 > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 = during > the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus = text > since version -7. >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html >=20 > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg Moskalenko >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > the author to copy from and paste. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) >=20 > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and =93Milestone 3: > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs=94 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text =93 6. Discovery using Anycast =93 to: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > =93IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet >=20 > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically >=20 > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the = TURN >=20 > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the >=20 > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. >=20 > =20 >=20 > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate >=20 > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server >=20 > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If = all >=20 > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try >=20 > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The >=20 > response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER >=20 > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the >=20 > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to = be >=20 > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach >=20 > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to >=20 > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An >=20 > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation >=20 > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most >=20 > optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The highlighted =93A TURN anycast server=94 isnothing known nor = described > (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast = address, > reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as > clarified in WG discussions with Simon). >=20 > =20 >=20 > The last sentence =93An implementation may choose to send out every = new > TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 violates > security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations = in > attached). >=20 > =20 >=20 > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text =937.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN =93 = to: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > =93WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the >=20 > mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway >=20 > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively = Encapsulated >=20 > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].=94 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN = servers > discovered by this draft. >=20 > =20 >=20 > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* >=20 > =20 >=20 > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication = and > especially for WebRTC. >=20 > =20 >=20 > /Karl >=20 > =20 >=20 > *Fr=E5n:*tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > *Till:* Simon Perreault > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < = mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > =20 >=20 > Hi, Simon, >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: >=20 > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : >> Dear TRAMsters, >>=20 >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >> < tireddy@cisco.com < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: >>=20 >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. >>=20 >> -Tiru >>=20 >>=20 >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS? >=20 > Thanks for the reminder. >=20 > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > Terry.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need = 10 > for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March = ;-) >=20 > =20 >=20 > Spencer=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 =20 =20 --=20 Simon Perreault Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com ------=_NextPart_000_0185_01D28069.9C4A4480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Simon,

 

There is no = consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, but we have a = chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, that works for = all cases, which no one has disputed as working and that is technically = superior.

 

Further, it = does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and what = is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted = radically different by participating WG = individuals.

 

Only Tiru, = during the DISCUSS, after version -10 (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/m= sg02219.html)

referenced = https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9, which says:

"This version of TURN has been designed to *permit = the future specification of a method* of doing anycast discovery of = a TURN server over UDP.

 

Previous to = my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to = discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the = DISCUSS) (in August, https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/m= sg02081.html) but that was not responded to by the authors = (only Branded responded, but from an authentication point of view, as if = the method meant a mixture of discovery and usage, which was confusing). =

 

During the DISCUSS, in response to my = request to fix, Prashanth only said:=A0 We = intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little = better:

“A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 = discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN = anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as = described in [RFC5766]”

[Karl] That must be an update of = RFC5766. Or does “TURN anycast server” imply that there ALSO = is a “TURN unicast server” at the same interface accepting = the Allocate request?=A0

 

That was = never responded to and in your discussion with = me:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html =

[Karl]> (I think = Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses = that

> can respond = error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether = the

> request was = received on its anycast address or its unicast = address,

 

[Simon] Correct.

 

[Karl]> and I

> = think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we = really have

> TWO TURN = servers to play with,

 

[Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment = scenario.

 

[Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft = -10

> text as if the = FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and = SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates = actually are making allocations.

 

[Simon] No, that would be wrong.

 

NOW, = reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may be in = the author’s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled = out), it is NOT the “TWO LAN IP TURN servers” but the = “No, that would be = wrong.”-method that is intended, see these highlights in the -12 = text!

IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent = to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically nearest" network interface [Karl: Nearest = cannot be two] with the anycast address. Using the TURN anycast = address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the network for = discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN.

When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request = to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast = server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in = Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The response contains the TURN unicast = address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER attribute. For = subsequent communication with = the TURN server, the client uses the responding server's unicast = address. This has to be done because two packets addressed to an anycast = address may reach two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also = needs to ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An = implementation may choose to send out every new TURN = Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest and = the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.

I think other participants in the = discussion, also interpret the -12 text as the “that = would be wrong”-variant, or even worse, a mixture of = discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come = in (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html = )).

 

So, current = version -12 meaning of text is probably not only “wrong”, = but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can have = no consensus, nor can that be brought into an = RFC.

 

 

In order to = NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working anycast mechanism = (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases (which no one = has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration “in Alan = Johnston / Avaya style (compare https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/ipr/2555)” where any party can use the proposed anycast = method (for which patent was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) = free of royalty as long as not asserting a patent right of its owns against = us. My IPR Declaration related to this I-D = should appear in day (said when submitting).

 

/Karl

 

-----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] =
Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43
Till: Karl Stahl; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)'
=C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 = WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Karl,

 

There = is no consensus in the working group behind this new = anycast

mechanism. Therefore it = can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism

defined in RFC 5766 remains.

 

Thanks,

Simon

 

Le = 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> The -12 version of the draft does not include = major remedies of flaws

> that = were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest = regarding

> the possible use of = (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the

> local or access network administrator, = see

>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

>

>=A0 =

>

> For the latest discussed, see

>

>=A0 =

>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

>

>>> However, I think we need agreement on = the justification for such a

> =

>> change.

>

>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), = (C) and (D) of

> =

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

>

>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is = necessary to achieve (A) and

> = (B), and improves (C) and (D).

>

>=A0 =

>

> Brandon> It is true that you have provided = a justification for the change.

>

>=A0 =

>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

>

> = The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 = during

> the discuss and = remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus = text

> since version = -7.

>

>=A0

> =

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

>

> = STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg = Moskalenko

>

>=A0

> =

>=A0

>

> I = have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining,

> removal of blue = options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for

> the author to copy from and = paste.

>

>=A0

> =

> Without my red lining, = current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478

> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and = Requirements)=A0 and does not

> = meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated

> TURN) (see under = redlined 7.2)

> =

> and it does not do what was = set out in the Charter and “Milestone 3:

> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for = enterprise and ISPs”

> =

>=A0

>

> = Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> DISCUSS)=A0 changed = the text “=A0 6.=A0 Discovery using Anycast “ = to:

>

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> = “IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery.=A0 A = packet

>

>=A0=A0=A0 sent to an anycast address is = delivered to the "topologically

>

>=A0=A0=A0 nearest" network interface with = the anycast address.=A0 Using the TURN

>

>=A0=A0=A0 anycast address, the only two things = that need to be deployed in the

>

>=A0=A0=A0 network for discovery are the two = things that actually use TURN.

>

>=A0 =

>

>=A0=A0=A0 When a client requires TURN services, = it sends a TURN allocate

> =

>=A0=A0=A0 request to the = assigned anycast address.=A0 A TURN anycast server

>

>=A0=A0=A0 performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in = Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].=A0 If all

>

>=A0=A0=A0 checks pass, the TURN anycast server = MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> =

>=A0=A0=A0 Alternate) error as = described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The

>

>=A0=A0=A0 response contains the TURN unicast = address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER

>

>=A0=A0=A0 attribute.=A0 For subsequent = communication with the TURN server, the

>

>=A0=A0=A0 client uses the responding server's = unicast address.=A0 This has to be

>

>=A0=A0=A0 done because two packets addressed to = an anycast address may reach

> =

>=A0=A0=A0 two different = anycast servers.=A0 The client, thus, also needs to

>

>=A0=A0=A0 ensure that the initial request fits = in a single packet.=A0 An

> =

>=A0=A0=A0 implementation may = choose to send out every new TURN Allocation

>

>=A0=A0=A0 request to the anycast address to = discover the closest and the most

>

>=A0=A0=A0 optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.”

> =

>=A0

>

> = The highlighted “A TURN anycast server”=A0 isnothing known = nor described

> (in fact there = would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the

> anycast address and another TURN server = deployed at the unicast address,

> reacting differently to the Allocation = request) for this to work as

> = clarified in WG discussions with Simon).

>

>=A0 =

>

> The last sentence “An=A0 implementation = may choose to send out every new

> TURN Allocation request to the anycast address = to discover the closest

> and = the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” = violates

> security and = deployment considerations (see red lined considerations = in

> = attached).

>

>=A0

> =

> Further, the authors have in = version -12 (compared to from before

> DISCUSS)=A0 changed the text “7.2.=A0 = Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ to:

>

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> = “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the

>

>=A0=A0=A0 mechanisms described in this = specification as an enterprise/gateway

>

>=A0=A0=A0 or access network server, in = accordance with Recursively Encapsulated

>

>=A0=A0=A0 TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].”

>

>=A0 =

>

> The text is a contradiction, since the return = draft deals with TURN

> servers = provided by the local or access network, not other TURN = servers

> discovered by this = draft.

>

>=A0

> =

> *Current -12 draft cannot be = considered to be an RFC!*

> =

>=A0

>

> I = suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into = now

> and quickly merged into a = version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict

> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted = about in

>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

> further delaying what is needed for Internet = real-time communication and

> = especially for WebRTC.

> =

>=A0

>

> = /Karl

>

>=A0

> =

> *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF

> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 = 22:12

> *Till:* Simon = Perreault

> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

>=A0 =

>

> Hi, Simon,

>

>=A0 =

>

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon = Perreault <sperreault@jive.com

> <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> =

> Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, = Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit :

>> Dear TRAMsters,

>> 

>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

>> <tireddy@cisco.com = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

>> 

>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 This revision addresses = comments from Brandon.

>> 

>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 -Tiru

>> 

>> 

>> How close are we to asking Terry to clear = the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

> =

> Thanks for the = reminder.

>

> If my co-chair and the authors have no = objection, I think we're ready.

>

>=A0 =

>

> I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime = in, but I do want to ping

> = Terry.

>

>=A0

> =

> It's a little-appreciated = thing, but AD ballot positions go away when

> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no = objections now, and you need 10

> for approval, and three are from ADs who are = stepping down in March ;-)

> =

>=A0

>

> = Spencer

>

>

> =

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> =

 

 

-- =

Simon Perreault

Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive = Communications, Inc.

https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

------=_NextPart_000_0185_01D28069.9C4A4480-- From nobody Mon Feb 6 09:41:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CA3129418; Mon, 6 Feb 2017 09:41:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IETF Secretariat To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.42.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148640287500.18998.17148826716292077895.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 09:41:15 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org, ipr-announce@ietf.org Subject: [tram] =?utf-8?q?IPR_Disclosure_IPalive_AB=2C_Sweden_=28assigned_?= =?utf-8?q?to_by_inventor_Karl_Erik_St=C3=A5hl=29=27s_Statement_about_IPR_?= =?utf-8?q?related_to_draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery?= X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2017 17:41:15 -0000 Dear Prashanth Patil, Tirumaleswar Reddy, Dan Wing: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "TURN Server Auto Discovery" (draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2948/). The title of the IPR disclosure is "IPalive AB, Sweden (assigned to by inventor Karl Erik Ståhl)'s Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery" Thank you IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Feb 6 22:18:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031AF129A92 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:18:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UN10ZH73iNy4 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C684D129A91 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 2017 22:18:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8532; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1486448331; x=1487657931; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=kCv2WiqQzval4aPF588WqJT/xoergEy0v1QcG2EJHHk=; b=TiSJY06eCa/jMem5e4i2M89GPURuhfl7pzp5lv9rr7D+pCdOgxKNnFwL qOa3Ype1IXfBHo6PZ0EnMd9OXPKJKRKbvp4B88qOGUtbD0A8D31ByznP2 jYfSwvetL2cqFEFMkSmHZ3ZSnjKqLFFJsdCszLbPvJiVz+eYPcBEtbzds Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ATAQByZplY/5NdJa1aAxkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYNRYYEJB41Zkg2IDI0qggwfC4V4AoJXPxgBAgEBAQEBAQFiKIR?= =?us-ascii?q?pAQEBAwEBAWwLBQcEAgEIDgMEAQEBIwQHIQYLFAkIAgQBDQUIiVMDDQgOsU2HO?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2ECgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFhkyEb4JRRoEgAQEFNxEVhR4Fj36?= =?us-ascii?q?LMTgBhmeHCoQQkQuKL4hdAR84fk8VPIQ/O4FIdQGGcIEhgQwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.33,345,1477958400"; d="scan'208";a="381452485" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Feb 2017 06:18:29 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v176ITL2027916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 06:18:29 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 00:18:28 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 00:18:28 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Simon Perreault , Karl Stahl , "'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'" Thread-Topic: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSfiNgsYWH8ggx2UOfGdVJL7afyaFdF4UA Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 06:18:28 +0000 Message-ID: <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.37.86] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 06:18:54 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > To: Karl Stahl ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Acti= on: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Karl, >=20 > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism > defined in RFC 5766 remains. Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar= mechanism. I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. -Tiru >=20 > Thanks, > Simon >=20 > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > > that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers > > provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > >> change. > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > >> and > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the chan= ge. > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > > the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > > (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does > not > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disco= v > > ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > TURN > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > the > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > all > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > be > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor described > > (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > > anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast > > address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to > > work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every new > > TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > > and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." violates > > security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations > > in attached). > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disco= v > > ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > the > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > Encapsulated > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > > and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > > Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at > > IETF > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > (tireddy) > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > wrote: > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > >> Dear TRAMsters, > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS= ? > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > > Terry. > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > > ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March > > ;-) > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >=20 >=20 > -- > Simon Perreault > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com From nobody Tue Feb 7 02:32:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CC812949F for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 10:32:09 -0000 Tiru, That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about=20 what the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same=20 question as I asked Simon before (and only he answered): Does the draft assume:=20 (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different=20 subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by whether the request was received on its anycast address or=20 its unicast address, OR (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast = address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR=20 (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT Allocates actually are making TURN allocations.=20 We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > To: Karl Stahl ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Karl, >=20 > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the = mechanism > defined in RFC 5766 remains. Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses = similar mechanism. I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. -Tiru >=20 > Thanks, > Simon >=20 > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of = flaws > > that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn = servers > > provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > >> change. > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > >> and > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, = for > > the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with = RFC7478 > > (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does > not > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discov > > ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > TURN > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > the > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > all > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, = the > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > be > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may = reach > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the = most > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor = described > > (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at = the > > anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast > > address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to > > work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every = new > > TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the = closest > > and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." violates > > security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations > > in attached). > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > > > > = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discov > > ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > the > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an = enterprise/gateway > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > Encapsulated > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into = now > > and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > > Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins = at > > IETF > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > (tireddy) > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > wrote: > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > >> Dear TRAMsters, > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS? > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to = ping > > Terry. > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away = when > > ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you = need > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in = March > > ;-) > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >=20 >=20 > -- > Simon Perreault > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com From nobody Tue Feb 7 03:02:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4A2129ADB for ; 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07 Feb 2017 11:01:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v17B1t1c032597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 7 Feb 2017 11:01:55 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 05:01:54 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 7 Feb 2017 05:01:54 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Karl Stahl , "'Simon Perreault'" , "'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'" Thread-Topic: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSfiNgsYWH8ggx2UOfGdVJL7afyaFdF4UAgAAf2JCAACyPAA== Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 11:01:54 +0000 Message-ID: <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> In-Reply-To: <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.232.21.222] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2017 11:01:59 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' > ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Acti= on: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Tiru, >=20 > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about wh= at > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question= as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below ques= tions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in= the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no im= pact on the actual protocol). -Tiru >=20 > Does the draft assume: >=20 > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR >=20 > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR >=20 > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. >=20 >=20 > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Actio= n: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses simil= ar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins = at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > > wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCU= SS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready= . > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Tue Feb 7 22:58:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7405B1293F9 for ; 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Tue, 7 Feb 2017 22:58:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ingate.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=SS41qgAqUf+MeAttFqur+PwMGaHVGRWO7BOSAtfzFG8=; b=jxLjN+7KrU37L0mqdggcY3+ItAksoXGp7Bx9tx/7/oPxxo4oow1JReGJbgF+I5/lvot1jXcUsTeDBF6r++aCwOnTjNcJge34VaoX3GS15YcFqSz57zLAQHZDfIIzCyE2MHpQUaspEB/Hiewr3A1Ij4gWaml5eIReh0UESbY38Gk= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=karl@ingate.com; Received: from Kallei7 (90.227.80.227) by AM4PR01MB1828.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.167.85.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.888.16; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 06:58:10 +0000 From: Karl Stahl To: "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" , 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 07:58:05 +0100 Message-ID: <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 06:58:18 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_03AB_01D281E1.169A4780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:=20 [Tiru below]> " https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server = reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). =20 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method = in the =9612 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication = Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict with.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.=20 =20 =20 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): =93(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: =20 (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server" (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" = for being discoverable by a certain method) =20 (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - = not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. = (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling this.) =20 =20 (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. =20 (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. =20 Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and improves (C) and (D).=94 =20 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html=20 Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red lined anycast method). =20 /Karl =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' > < sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins = at IETF' > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Tiru, >=20 > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): =20 I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below = questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have = no impact on the actual protocol). =20 -Tiru =20 >=20 > Does the draft assume: >=20 > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, = distinguished by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR >=20 > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR >=20 > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. >=20 >=20 > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified. >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [ mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl < = karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed = in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. = If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has = to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = > > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com> > > < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram ------=_NextPart_000_03AB_01D281E1.169A4780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I = discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and further = referencing:

[Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism" does not = help:

- It rather states issues coming from not knowing = whether a server reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast = address or really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is = rare).

 

2) Further, = there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in the = –12 draft (compare the redlined version)

It does not = even discuss or list =A0= RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) that it = is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict with. =

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/m= sg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. =

 

 

3) And if = the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described = in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) = exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we

need/want anycast = discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. = These

points = are:

 

(A) We = need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server"

(not = some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers = "invented" for

being = discoverable by a certain method)

 

(B) We = need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that = is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying = traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being = discoverable. (And

more = widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least

one discovery = method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where = a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only = anycast

using Binding for = querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling

this.)=A0 =

 

(C) = Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly = preferable.

 

(D) = Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying = Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and

improves (C) and = (D).”

 

4) The = (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. =

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html = and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html =

Against my red = lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red = lined anycast method).

= =A0

/Karl

 

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den = 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon = Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: = RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 = PM

> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>; 'Simon Perreault'

> = <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in = on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> = Tiru,

>

> That does not make the version -12 text in the = draft any clearer about what

> = the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I

> asked Simon = before (and only he answered):

 

I = agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below = questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below = questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations = (and have no impact on the actual protocol).

 

-Tiru

 

> =

> Does the draft = assume:

>

> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP = addresses (that are at different

> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an = allocation, distinguished by

> = whether the request was received on its anycast address or its = unicast

> address, = OR

>

> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play = with (the one at the anycast

> = address being configured to respond with the error 300, = OR

>

> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with = error 300 and SUBSEQUENT

> = Allocates actually are making TURN allocations.

>

> =

> We cannot have an RFC, not = even being clear about the method specified.

>

> = /Karl

>

>

> = -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>]

> Skickat: den 7 = februari 2017 07:18

> Till: = Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in = on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> = > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> > Sent: = Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> > Cc: = tram@ietf.org;= Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>

> > Subject: Re: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action:

> > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> >

> > Karl,

> >

> > There is no consensus in the working = group behind this new anycast

> = > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and = the

> > mechanism defined in = RFC 5766 remains.

> =

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses = similar

> = mechanism.

> I don't see the = need for a new anycast mechanism.

>

> = -Tiru

>

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Simon

> >

> > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a = =E9crit :

> > > The -12 = version of the draft does not include major remedies of

> > > flaws that were un-addressed long = before the DISCUSS, nor the latest

> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS = for auto discovered turn

> > = > servers provided the local or access network administrator, = see

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > For the latest discussed, = see

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

> > >

> > >>> However, I think we need = agreement on the justification for such a

> > >

> > >> change.

> > >

> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the = (A), (B), (C) and (D) of

> > = >

> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

> > >

> > >> where saying Binding instead = Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A)

> > >> and

> > > (B), and improves (C) and = (D).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Brandon> It = is true that you have provided a justification for the

> change.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

> > >

> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's = idea to throw into version -10

> > > during the discuss and remains in = this version -11, breaking the

> > > consensus text since version = -7.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> > >

> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of = (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg

> = > > Moskalenko

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I have = inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining,

> > > removal = of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as = attached,

> > > for the = author to copy from and paste.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Without my red lining, current = version -12 is in conflict with

> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication = Use Cases and Requirements)

> = > > and does

> > = not

> > > meet the need = of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated

> > > TURN) (see under redlined = 7.2)

> > = >

> > > and it does = not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3:

> > > TURN server = auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version = -12 (compared to from before

> = > > DISCUSS)=A0 changed the text "=A0 6.=A0 Discovery using = Anycast " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "IP anycast can also be used = for TURN service discovery.=A0 A packet

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 sent to an anycast address = is delivered to the "topologically

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 nearest" network = interface with the anycast address.=A0 Using the

> > > TURN

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 anycast address, the only = two things that need to be deployed in

> > > the

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 network for discovery are = the two things that actually use TURN.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 When a client requires TURN = services, it sends a TURN allocate

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 request to the assigned = anycast address.=A0 A TURN anycast server

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 performs checks 1 to 7 = discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].=A0 If

> > > all

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 checks pass, the TURN = anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 Alternate) error as = described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 response contains the TURN = unicast address in the

> > = > ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > = >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 = attribute.=A0 For subsequent communication with the TURN = server,

> > > = the

> > = >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 = client uses the responding server's unicast address.=A0 This has = to

> > > = be

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 done because two packets = addressed to an anycast address may

> > > reach

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 two different anycast = servers.=A0 The client, thus, also needs to

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 ensure that the initial = request fits in a single packet.=A0 An

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 implementation may choose = to send out every new TURN Allocation

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 request to the anycast = address to discover the closest and the

> > > most

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 optimal unicast address for = the TURN server."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The = highlighted "A TURN anycast server"=A0 isnothing known = nor

> > > described (in = fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one

> > > deployed at the anycast address and = another TURN server deployed at

> > > the unicast address, reacting = differently to the Allocation request)

> > > for this to work as clarified in WG = discussions with Simon).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The last = sentence "An=A0 implementation may choose to send out = every

> > > new TURN = Allocation request to the anycast address to discover = the

> > > closest and the = most optimal unicast address for the TURN server."

> > > violates security and deployment = considerations (see red lined

> = > > considerations in attached).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version = -12 (compared to from before

> = > > DISCUSS)=A0 changed the text "7.2.=A0 Recursively = Encapsulated TURN " to:

> = > >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat = any TURN server discovered through

> > the

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 mechanisms described in = this specification as an

> > = > enterprise/gateway

> > = >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 or = access network server, in accordance with Recursively

> > > Encapsulated

> > >

> > >=A0=A0=A0 TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The text is a contradiction, since = the return draft deals with TURN

> > > servers provided by the local or = access network, not other TURN

> > > servers discovered by this = draft.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > *Current -12 = draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I suggest the redline version of = draft -12 attached is chimed into

> > > now and quickly merged into a = version -13, so we can avoid the

> > > "Conflict Resolution and = Appeals"process hinted about in

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

> > > further delaying what is needed for = Internet real-time communication

> > > and especially for = WebRTC.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = /Karl

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > *Fr=E5n:*tram = [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > IETF

> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 = 22:12

> > > *Till:* Simon = Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* = tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D = Action:

> > > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi, Simon,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, = Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> = > >

> > > Le = 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit = :

> > >> Dear = TRAMsters,

> > = >>

> > >> On = Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)

> > >> = <tireddy@cisco.com

> > = >> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> = > >>

> > = >>=A0=A0=A0=A0 This revision addresses comments from = Brandon.

> > = >>

> > = >>=A0=A0=A0=A0 -Tiru

> = > >>

> > = >>

> > >> How = close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS?

> > = >

> > > Thanks for the = reminder.

> > = >

> > > If my co-chair = and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people = to chime in, but I do want to

> = > > ping Terry.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > It's a = little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go = away

> > > when ADs go = away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and

> > > you need

> > > 10 for approval, and three are from = ADs who are stepping down in

> = > > March

> > > = ;-)

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Spencer

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = _______________________________________________

> > > tram mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> = > >

> = >

> >

> > --

> > Simon Perreault

> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive = Communications, Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

>

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

------=_NextPart_000_03AB_01D281E1.169A4780-- From nobody Wed Feb 8 00:51:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9481E129974 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:51:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JBpJbyflDsFc for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1678A12941E for ; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 00:51:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=72666; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1486543872; x=1487753472; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=cVqIpG7SNCoZyvLyFOfqH3lJ4ph98/9Te9sObzd51q4=; b=Ip3xyntwawh94be7ncwFDg/6KDE1vGLB3xm5RqW4zOLAHyo6d2LHmZMr cv0Jm7eyBtAcQ9WF+AtFDUl/gkxaUZSbKVv/+X91eYW3qzcDnIfXZmpuZ 1y5sYXdLLZk20BwUi4RTBU4rUSOQnDVxco2YSZbyXRhlpYdxZ6Y3ppLpF E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AXAQAV25pY/4cNJK1aAxkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYJvYmGBCQeFWIgCkg6IDI0qggkDHwEKhB6BWgKCXj8YAQIBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBYiiEaQEBAQMBAQEYE0ELBQcEAgEIEQQBASEBAgQHIQYLFAkIAgQBDQUIi?= =?us-ascii?q?VQDDQgOshiHPw2EBwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARgFhkyEb4JRRoEgAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?FNxURhR4FkAOLNTgBhmyHDIQQggSPCogsggeEVSWDZAEfOH5PFTyEPzuBSHUBh?= =?us-ascii?q?lCBIYEMAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.33,346,1477958400"; d="scan'208,217";a="382740200" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Feb 2017 08:51:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v188p9Bi022804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 8 Feb 2017 08:51:09 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 02:51:08 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Wed, 8 Feb 2017 02:51:08 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Karl Stahl , "'Simon Perreault'" , "'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'" Thread-Topic: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSfiNgsYWH8ggx2UOfGdVJL7afyaFdF4UAgAAf2JCAACyPAIAAotvAgAC39sA= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 08:51:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> In-Reply-To: <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.232.20.47] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c29a9ea6c4064365b05f988add8b9c63XCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2017 08:51:16 -0000 --_000_c29a9ea6c4064365b05f988add8b9c63XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Karl, We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don't see a nee= d to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational c= onsiderations and have no impact on the protocol. Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and = WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is = not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the a= ttacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received from B= randon. -Tiru From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the dr= aft -12 text and further referencing: [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discuss= es similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached = by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deploy= ed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in = the -12 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use = Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) me= thod is in conflict with. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and des= cribed in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mai= l-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): "(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server= " (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" for being discoverable by a certain method) (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address fulfilling this.) (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) and (D)." 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as wi= th the red lined anycast method). /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IE= TF' > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Acti= on: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > Tiru, > > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about wh= at > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question= as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below ques= tions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in= the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no im= pact on the actual protocol). -Tiru > > Does the draft assume: > > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR > > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > > > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. > > /Karl > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Actio= n: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <= tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses simil= ar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > > -Tiru > > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins = at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; = Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > > wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCU= SS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready= . > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram --_000_c29a9ea6c4064365b05f988add8b9c63XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Karl,

 

We have gone over the = same points over and over again and I don’t see a need to document th= e discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations an= d have no impact on the protocol.

 

Secondly, there is no = consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG members have oppose= d your new anycast mechanism.

 

Regarding (D)TLS, the = draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use i= f the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RF= C5766. This update addresses comments received from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.co= m]
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon P= erreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spence= rdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

1) The A)+B) metho= d (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and f= urther referencing:

[Tiru below]> "= ;https://tools.= ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism"= ; does not help:

- It rather states iss= ues coming from not knowing whether a server reached by anycast addressing,= actually is at a unicast address or really is deployed at a anycast addres= s (which I believe is rare).

 

2) Further, there are = no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in the –12 draf= t (compare the redlined version)

It does not even discu= ss or list  RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and R= equirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is= in conflict with.

https://www.ietf.org= /mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.

 

 

3) And if the (more co= mplex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in some fut= ure revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (impor= tant) points why we

need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of A= llocate. These

points are:

 

(A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discoveri= ng "a TURN server"

(not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN serve= rs "invented" for

being discoverable by a certain method)<= /p>

 

(B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server = that is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relayin= g traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being d= iscoverable. (And

more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to = provide at least

one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see= only anycast

using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast add= ress fulfilling

this.) 

 

(C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable.

 

(D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (= A) and (B), and

improves (C) and (D).”=

 

4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus = either.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 296.html and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 297.html

Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objec= tions (just as with the red lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande---= --
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [= mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

> -----Original Message-----=

> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl=

> Sent: Tuesday, February 7,= 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (ti= reddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreau= lt'

> <sper= reault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'=

> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.= org

> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime = in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-serve= r-discovery-12.txt

>

> Tiru,

>

> That does not make the ver= sion -12 text in the draft any clearer about what

> the draft's anycast method= actually is. I am asking you the same question as I

> asked Simon before (and on= ly he answered):

 

I agree with the responses Simo= n has already provided to all the below questions. Further, I also don't se= e the need to discuss the below questions in the draft because they are onl= y operational considerations (and have no impact on the actual protocol).

 

-Tiru

 

>

> Does the draft assume:

>

> (A) a TURN server listenin= g to TWO IP addresses (that are at different

> subnets) that can respond = error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by

> whether the request was re= ceived on its anycast address or its unicast

> address, OR

>

> (B) we really have TWO TUR= N servers to play with (the one at the anycast

> address being configured t= o respond with the error 300, OR

>

> (C) the FIRST Allocate is = responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually are mak= ing TURN allocations.

>

>

> We cannot have an RFC, not= even being clear about the method specified.

>

> /Karl

>

>

> -----Ursprungligt meddelan= de-----

> Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy= (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=

> Skickat: den 7 februari 20= 17 07:18

> Till: Simon Perreault; Kar= l Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ie= tf.org

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime i= n on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-serve= r-discovery-12.txt

>

> > -----Original Message= -----

> > From: Simon Perreault= [mailto:sperreault@jive.com]

> > Sent: Friday, Februar= y 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at= IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>

> > Cc: tram@= ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tired= dy@cisco.com>

> > Subject: Re: [tram] C= hime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action:<= /p>

> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-= server-discovery-12.txt

> >

> > Karl,

> >

> > There is no consensus= in the working group behind this new anycast

> > mechanism. Therefore = it can not be added to the draft, and the

> > mechanism defined in = RFC 5766 remains.

>

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar

> mechanism.

> I don't see the need for a= new anycast mechanism.

>

> -Tiru

>

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Simon

> >

> > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:= 23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> > > The -12 version = of the draft does not include major remedies of

> > > flaws that were = un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest

> > > regarding the po= ssible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn

> > > servers provided= the local or access network administrator, see

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > For the latest d= iscussed, see

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

> > >

> > >>> However,= I think we need agreement on the justification for such a

> > >

> > >> change.=

> > >

> > >> [Karl] Justi= fication is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of

> > >

> > >> https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

> > >

> > >> where saying= Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A)

> > >> and

> > > (B), and improve= s (C) and (D).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Brandon> It i= s true that you have provided a justification for the

> change.<= /p>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

> > >

> > > The (D)TLS manda= ting was Author's idea to throw into version -10

> > > during the discu= ss and remains in this version -11, breaking the

> > > consensus text s= ince version -7.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> > >

> > > STUN dummy authe= ntication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg

> > > Moskalenko<= /o:p>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I have inserted = my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining,

> > > removal of blue = options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached,

> > > for the author t= o copy from and paste.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Without my red l= ining, current version -12 is in conflict with

> > > RFC7478 (Web Rea= l-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements)

> > > and does

> > not=

> > > meet the need of= [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated

> > > TURN) (see under= redlined 7.2)

> > >

> > > and it does not = do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3:=

> > > TURN server auto= -discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the aut= hors have in version -12 (compared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  c= hanged the text "  6.  Discovery using Anycast " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools.ietf.or= g/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&am= p;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "IP anycast= can also be used for TURN service discovery.  A packet

> > >

> > >   = ; sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically

> > >

> > >   = ; nearest" network interface with the anycast address.  Using the=

> > > TURN<= /span>

> > >

> > >   = ; anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in

> > > the

> > >

> > >   = ; network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >   = ; When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate=

> > >

> > >   = ; request to the assigned anycast address.  A TURN anycast server=

> > >

> > >   = ; performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].  If

> > > all

> > >

> > >   = ; checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> > >

> > >   = ; Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The=

> > >

> > >   = ; response contains the TURN unicast address in the

> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER=

> > >

> > >   = ; attribute.  For subsequent communication with the TURN server,<= /o:p>

> > > the

> > >

> > >   = ; client uses the responding server's unicast address.  This has to

> > > be

> > >

> > >   = ; done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may

> > > reach=

> > >

> > >   = ; two different anycast servers.  The client, thus, also needs to=

> > >

> > >   = ; ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet.  An

> > >

> > >   = ; implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation

> > >

> > >   = ; request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the=

> > > most<= /span>

> > >

> > >   = ; optimal unicast address for the TURN server."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The highlighted = "A TURN anycast server"  isnothing known nor

> > > described (in fa= ct there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one

> > > deployed at the = anycast address and another TURN server deployed at

> > > the unicast addr= ess, reacting differently to the Allocation request)

> > > for this to work= as clarified in WG discussions with Simon).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The last sentenc= e "An  implementation may choose to send out every

> > > new TURN Allocat= ion request to the anycast address to discover the

> > > closest and the = most optimal unicast address for the TURN server."

> > > violates securit= y and deployment considerations (see red lined

> > > considerations i= n attached).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the aut= hors have in version -12 (compared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  c= hanged the text "7.2.  Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools.ietf.or= g/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&am= p;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "WebRTC end= points SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through

> > the=

> > >

> > >   = ; mechanisms described in this specification as an

> > > enterprise/gatew= ay

> > >

> > >   = ; or access network server, in accordance with Recursively

> > > Encapsulated

> > >

> > >   = ; TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The text is a co= ntradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN

> > > servers provided= by the local or access network, not other TURN

> > > servers discover= ed by this draft.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Current -12 dra= ft cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I suggest the re= dline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into

> > > now and quickly = merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the

> > > "Conflict R= esolution and Appeals"process hinted about in

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

> > > further delaying= what is needed for Internet real-time communication

> > > and especially f= or WebRTC.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > /Karl=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [<= a href=3D"mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer= Dawkins at

> > > IETF<= /span>

> > > *Skickat:* den 1= februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* Simon Pe= rreault

> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org<= /a> <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy=

> > > (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* Re: [t= ram] I-D Action:

> > > draft-ietf-tram-= turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi, Simon,<= /o:p>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2= 017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote:

> > >

> > > Le 2017-02-01 = =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit :

> > >> Dear TRAMste= rs,

> > >>

> > >> On Fri, Jan = 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> > >> <tireddy@= cisco.com

> > >> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com><mailto:tireddy@cisco.co= m

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>  &= nbsp;  This revision addresses comments from Brandon.

> > >>

> > >>  &= nbsp;  -Tiru

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> How close ar= e we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

> > >

> > > Thanks for the r= eminder.

> > >

> > > If my co-chair a= nd the authors have no objection, I think we're ready.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'll give this 2= 4 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to

> > > ping Terry.=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It's a little-ap= preciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away

> > > when ADs go away= ; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and

> > > you need

> > > 10 for approval,= and three are from ADs who are stepping down in

> > > March=

> > > ;-)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Spencer

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________= _______________________________

> > > tram mailing lis= t

> > > tram= @ietf.org

> > > https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/tram

> > >

> >

> >

> > --<= /p>

> > Simon Perreault<= /o:p>

> > Director of Engineeri= ng, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc.

> > https://jive.= com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

>

> __________________________= _____________________

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org<= /span>

> https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/tram

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 12:52:30 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0490_01D282DB.BA8BAB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tiru, =20 Each of your three sentences are incorrect. =20 And, > updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if = the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in = RFC5766.=20 =20 --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing =93MUST=94 for (D)TLS = usage under 9:=20 ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 and my question how the =93explicit administrator choice=94 is supposed = to happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not = answered. =20 - I don=92t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its purpose). =20 Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft =96 that should = specify DISCOVERY =96 cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do = (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY). =20 The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or mistakes. =20 We should focus on whether the red lined version anything but = improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. =20 /Karl =20 PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author=92s at the WG list is*: October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): = We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a = 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];=94 November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru=20 November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. -Tiru December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don=92t understand why the mechanism where = TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won=92t = work ? Cheers, -Tiru Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below =20 =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don=92t see = a need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. =20 Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism = and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism.=20 =20 Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS = is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against = the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon. =20 -Tiru =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:=20 [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server = reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). =20 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method = in the =9612 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication = Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict with.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.=20 =20 =20 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): =93(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: =20 (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server" (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" = for being discoverable by a certain method) =20 (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - = not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. = (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling this.) =20 =20 (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. =20 (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. =20 Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and improves (C) and (D).=94 =20 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html=20 Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red lined anycast method). =20 /Karl =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' > < sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins = at IETF' > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Tiru, >=20 > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): =20 I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below = questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have = no impact on the actual protocol). =20 -Tiru =20 >=20 > Does the draft assume: >=20 > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, = distinguished by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR >=20 > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR >=20 > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. >=20 >=20 > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified. >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [ mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl < = karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed = in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. = If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has = to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = > > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com> > > < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram ------=_NextPart_000_0490_01D282DB.BA8BAB90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ti= ru,

 

Ea= ch of your three sentences are incorrect.

 

An= d,

&g= t; updated in 12 = version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the network = infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. =

 

--= - And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding = (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing “MUST” for = (D)TLS usage under 9:

...and therefore = MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive = communication.

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.=A0 =

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.=A0 =

an= d my question how the “explicit = administrator choice&#= 8221; =A0is supposed to happen in an enterprise environment or at an = internet caf=E9 is not answered.

 

- = I don’t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for = its purpose).

 

Pl= ease note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated =A0for any = usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft – that = should specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the = discovery methods do (and cannot) =A0use (D)TLS (that discussion is for = USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY).

 

Th= e read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or = mistakes.

 

We= should focus on whether the red lined version anything but improvements = and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the = draft.

 

/K= arl

 

PS= : Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s at the WG list = is*:

Oc= tober 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): = =A0W= e intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little = better:

“A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to = 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN = anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as = described in [RFC5766];”

No= vember 15, 2016 =A0(to = something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru =

No= vember 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. = -Tiru

De= cember 22, 2016 Hi = Karl, I don’t understand why the mechanism where TURN server has = both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won’t work ? = Cheers, -Tiru

No= w February 7, 8, 2016 See below

 

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: = tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined = version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi Karl,

 

We have = gone over the same points over and over again and I don’t see a = need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only = operational considerations and have no impact on the = protocol.

 

Secondly, = there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG = members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. =

 

Regarding = (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not = mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the = attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

1) The A)+B) = method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 = text and further referencing:

[Tiru = below]> "https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar = mechanism" does not help:

- It rather = states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached by = anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is = deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is = rare).

 

2) Further, = there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in the = –12 draft (compare the redlined version)

It does not = even discuss or list &n= bsp;RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) = that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict = with.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html = and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. =

 

 

3) And if the = (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in = some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) = exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we

need/want anycast = discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. = These

points = are:

 

(A) We = need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server"

(not = some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers = "invented" for

being = discoverable by a certain method)

 

(B) We = need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that = is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying = traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being = discoverable. (And

more = widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least

one discovery = method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where = a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only = anycast

using Binding for = querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling

this.)  =

 

(C) = Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly = preferable.

 

(D) = Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying = Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and

improves (C) and = (D).”

 

4) The = (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. =

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html = and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html =

Against my red = lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red = lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 <= /p>

-----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; = 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 <= /p>

> -----Original = Message-----

> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, = February 7, 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar = Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>; 'Simon Perreault'

> <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> Subject: Re: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> = Tiru,

> =

> That does not make = the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about = what

> the draft's anycast = method actually is. I am asking you the same question as = I

> asked Simon before = (and only he answered):

 <= /p>

I agree with the = responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. = Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in the = draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no = impact on the actual protocol).

 <= /p>

-Tiru

 <= /p>

> =

> Does the draft = assume:

> =

> (A) a TURN server = listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at = different

> subnets) that can = respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by

> whether the request = was received on its anycast address or its = unicast

> address, = OR

> =

> (B) we really have = TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast

> address being = configured to respond with the error 300, OR

> =

> (C) the FIRST = Allocate is responded to with error 300 and = SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually = are making TURN allocations.

> =

> =

> We cannot have an = RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified.

> =

> = /Karl

> =

> =

> -----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>]

> Skickat: den 7 = februari 2017 07:18

> Till: Simon = Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> > -----Original = Message-----

> > From: Simon = Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> > Sent: Friday, = February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl = <karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> > Cc: tram@ietf.org;= Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>

> > Subject: Re: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: = I-D

> = Action:

> > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> = >

> > = Karl,

> = >

> > There is no = consensus in the working group behind this new = anycast

> > mechanism. = Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and = the

> > mechanism = defined in RFC 5766 remains.

> =

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses = similar

> = mechanism.

> I don't see the = need for a new anycast mechanism.

> =

> = -Tiru

> =

> = >

> > = Thanks,

> > = Simon

> = >

> > Le 2017-02-02 = =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> > > The -12 = version of the draft does not include major remedies = of

> > > flaws = that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest

> > > regarding = the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered = turn

> > > servers = provided the local or access network administrator, = see

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > For the = latest discussed, see

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >>> = However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a

> > = >

> > >> = change.

> > = >

> > >> = [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) = of

> > = >

> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >> where = saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A)

> > >> = and

> > > (B), and = improves (C) and (D).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for = the

> = change.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > The = (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version = -10

> > > during = the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking = the

> > > consensus = text since version -7.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > STUN = dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by = Oleg

> > > = Moskalenko

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I have = inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining,

> > > removal = of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as = attached,

> > > for the = author to copy from and paste.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Without = my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict = with

> > > RFC7478 = (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and = Requirements)

> > > and = does

> > = not

> > > meet the = need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated

> > > TURN) = (see under redlined 7.2)

> > = >

> > > and it = does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3:

> > > TURN = server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and = ISPs"

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "  6.  Discovery using = Anycast " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > "IP = anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery.  A = packet

> > = >

> > = >    sent to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically

> > = >

> > = >    nearest" network interface with the anycast = address.  Using the

> > > = TURN

> > = >

> > = >    anycast address, the only two things that need to = be deployed in

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    network for discovery are the two things that = actually use TURN.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >    When a client requires TURN services, it sends a = TURN allocate

> > = >

> > = >    request to the assigned anycast address.  A = TURN anycast server

> > = >

> > = >    performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of [RFC5766].  If

> > > = all

> > = >

> > = >    checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond = with a 300 (Try

> > = >

> > = >    Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of = [RFC5766]; The

> > = >

> > = >    response contains the TURN unicast address in = the

> > > = ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > = >

> > = >    attribute.  For subsequent communication = with the TURN server,

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    client uses the responding server's unicast = address.  This has to

> > > = be

> > = >

> > = >    done because two packets addressed to an anycast = address may

> > > = reach

> > = >

> > = >    two different anycast servers.  The client, = thus, also needs to

> > = >

> > = >    ensure that the initial request fits in a single = packet.  An

> > = >

> > = >    implementation may choose to send out every new = TURN Allocation

> > = >

> > = >    request to the anycast address to discover the = closest and the

> > > = most

> > = >

> > = >    optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The = highlighted "A TURN anycast server"  isnothing known = nor

> > > described = (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, = one

> > > deployed = at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at

> > > the = unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request)

> > > for this = to work as clarified in WG discussions with = Simon).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The last = sentence "An  implementation may choose to send out = every

> > > new TURN = Allocation request to the anycast address to discover = the

> > > closest = and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > > violates = security and deployment considerations (see red = lined

> > > = considerations in attached).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "7.2.  Recursively = Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > = "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered = through

> > = the

> > = >

> > = >    mechanisms described in this specification as = an

> > > = enterprise/gateway

> > = >

> > = >    or access network server, in accordance with = Recursively

> > > = Encapsulated

> > = >

> > = >    TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The text = is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN

> > > servers = provided by the local or access network, not other = TURN

> > > servers = discovered by this draft.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > *Current = -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I suggest = the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed = into

> > > now and = quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid = the

> > > = "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about = in

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

=

> > > further = delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication

> > > and = especially for WebRTC.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = /Karl

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > = IETF

> > > = *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* = Simon Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* = tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > = (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* = Re: [tram] I-D Action:

> > > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Hi, = Simon,

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > On Thu, = Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> > = >

> > > Le = 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit = :

> > >> Dear = TRAMsters,

> > = >>

> > >> On = Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)

> > >> = <tireddy@cisco.com

> > >> = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> > = >>

> > = >>     This revision addresses comments from = Brandon.

> > = >>

> > = >>     -Tiru

> > = >>

> > = >>

> > >> How = close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS?

> > = >

> > > Thanks = for the reminder.

> > = >

> > > If my = co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I'll give = this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want = to

> > > ping = Terry.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > It's a = little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go = away

> > > when ADs = go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, = and

> > > you = need

> > > 10 for = approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down = in

> > > = March

> > > = ;-)

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Spencer

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = _______________________________________________

> > > tram = mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> > = >

> = >

> = >

> > = --

> > Simon = Perreault

> > Director of = Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, = Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

> =

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing = list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

------=_NextPart_000_0490_01D282DB.BA8BAB90-- From nobody Thu Feb 9 06:34:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCF4129A6C for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 06:34:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3B7bBRpbguwk for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 06:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EE28129A66 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 06:33:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=103730; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1486650839; x=1487860439; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=E60szhR0f20z76N7hlQ9b9nzU5OJ4UyQKNO9Jc7FUdE=; b=I5BZm3aIvXULfYQd/Lr6HC25KAV93HEkgVQm1Ik9SkV/NkZWOhJUOAdI YDXhLq8qhe0PGpmrepirYDYPn4wpsUIGz++1Gto70y9uomaKDbG829dR7 i7sqzbc0Uyg+2MB1adOWZ4ERjAiOsOL9BuZp9wUwxaDIjJWOzZqUU19QU Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AVAQB6fZxY/5ldJa1aAxkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYJvYmGBCQeNWpIJiAyNKoIJAx8BCoV4AoJqPxgBAgEBAQEBAQF?= =?us-ascii?q?iKIRpAQEBAwEBARgBEkELBQcEAgEIEQQBASEBAgQHIQYLFAkIAgQBDQUIF4k9A?= =?us-ascii?q?w0IDrIMhy8NhAoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYBYZMhG+CUUaBDhIBAQU?= =?us-ascii?q?3FRGFHgWQA4s1OAGGbIcMhBCCBIUXg1CGI4gsggiERRAlg2QBHzh+TxU8hAs0O?= =?us-ascii?q?4FIdQGGUIEhgQwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.35,349,1484006400"; d="scan'208,217";a="204604746" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 09 Feb 2017 14:33:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v19EXux4026003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 9 Feb 2017 14:33:56 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:33:55 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 08:33:55 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Karl Stahl , "'Simon Perreault'" , "'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'" Thread-Topic: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSfiNgsYWH8ggx2UOfGdVJL7afyaFdF4UAgAAf2JCAACyPAIAAotvAgAC39sCAAPfGkIABDAlg Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 14:33:55 +0000 Message-ID: <57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> <048f01d282d3$58c74390$0a55cab0$@stahl@ingate.com> In-Reply-To: <048f01d282d3$58c74390$0a55cab0$@stahl@ingate.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.85.210] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2XCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2017 14:34:03 -0000 --_000_57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Karl, Please see inline From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Tiru, Each of your three sentences are incorrect. And, > updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the n= etwork infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding (D)T= LS usage in this situation, by introducing "MUST" for (D)TLS usage under 9: ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. and my question how the "explicit administrator choice" is supposed to hap= pen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not answered. [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the fai= lure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the user n= eeds to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). - I don't think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities (which aga= in seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its purpose). Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any usa= ge of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft - that should specify D= ISCOVERY - cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do (and cann= ot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY). [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot defen= d against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. -Tiru The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or mistake= s. We should focus on whether the red lined version anything but improvements = and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. /Karl PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in Augus= t 8, 2016, all from the Author's at the WG list is*: October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): We = intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: "A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of R= FC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300= (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];" November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alt= ernate mechanism. -Tiru December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don't understand why the mechanism where TURN = server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won't work ? C= heers, -Tiru Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Hi Karl, We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don't see a nee= d to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational c= onsiderations and have no impact on the protocol. Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and = WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is = not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the a= ttacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received from B= randon. -Tiru From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the dr= aft -12 text and further referencing: [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discuss= es similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached = by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deploy= ed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in = the -12 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use = Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) me= thod is in conflict with. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and des= cribed in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mai= l-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): "(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server= " (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" for being discoverable by a certain method) (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address fulfilling this.) (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) and (D)." 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as wi= th the red lined anycast method). /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IE= TF' > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Acti= on: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > Tiru, > > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about wh= at > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question= as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below ques= tions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in= the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no im= pact on the actual protocol). -Tiru > > Does the draft assume: > > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR > > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > > > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. > > /Karl > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Actio= n: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <= tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses simil= ar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > > -Tiru > > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins = at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; = Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > > wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCU= SS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready= . > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram --_000_57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Karl,

 

Please see inline=

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.co= m]
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon P= erreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spence= rdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Tiru,

 

Each of your three sentences are incorrect= .

 

And,

> updated in 12 version to say that (D)T= LS is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against= the attacks discussed in RFC5766.

 

--- And in addition It breaks the version = -07 consensus text regarding (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing= “MUST” for (D)TLS usage under 9:

...and ther= efore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication.

...but MUST= NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. 

...but MUST= NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. 

and my question how the “= ;explicit administrator choice&= #8221;  is supposed to happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet= caf=E9 is not answered.

 

[TR] Expli= cit administrator choice means the user is notified about the failure and f= allback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the user needs to kn= ow that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism).

 = ;

- I don’t think Brandon or anyone as= ked for such impossibilities (which again seem to be created to make this s= pecification unusable for its purpose).

 

Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS u= sage is not mandated  for any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (aga= in) this draft – that should specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do (and cannot)  use (D)= TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY).<= /p>

 

[TR] No, (D)TLS is onl= y mandated if the network infrastructure cannot d= efend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766.

 

-Tiru

 

The read lined -12 version is cleared from= these and other flaws or mistakes.

 

We should focus on whether the red lined v= ersion anything but improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of = the draft.

 

/Karl

 

PS: Regarding the non working anycast meth= od, *since I highlighted in August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s = at the WG list is*:

October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and= others during the discuss):  We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better:

“A TURN anycast se= rver performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all che= cks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) e= rror as described in [RFC5766];”

November 15, 2016  (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru

November 18, 2016 (to something from Br= andon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. -Tiru

December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don’t understand why = the mechanism where TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re= -direction won’t work ? Cheers, -Tiru

Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below

 

 

Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [= mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Hi Karl,

 

We have gone over the = same points over and over again and I don’t see a need to document th= e discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations an= d have no impact on the protocol.

 

Secondly, there is no = consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG members have oppose= d your new anycast mechanism.

 

Regarding (D)TLS, the = draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use i= f the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RF= C5766. This update addresses comments received from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' &= lt;spencerdawkins.ietf@gma= il.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not= specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:

[Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4= also discusses similar mechanism" does not help:

- It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a= server reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or = really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare).

 

2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the = A)+B) method in the –12 draft (compare the redlined version)=

It does not even discuss or list  RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and R= equirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is= in conflict with.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg023= 14.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.

 

 

3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be prop= erly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (impor= tant) points why we

need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of A= llocate. These

points are:

 

(A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discoveri= ng "a TURN server"

(not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN serve= rs "invented" for

being discoverable by a certain method)<= /p>

 

(B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server = that is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relayin= g traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being d= iscoverable. (And

more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to = provide at least

one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see= only anycast

using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast add= ress fulfilling

this.) 

 

(C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable.

 

(D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (= A) and (B), and

improves (C) and (D).”=

 

4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus = either.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 296.html and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 297.html

Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objec= tions (just as with the red lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [= mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: tram [= mailto:tram-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <= tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault'

> <sperreault@jive.com&= gt;; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <= spencerdawkins.ietf@g= mail.com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined vers= ion-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> Tiru,

>

> That does not make the version -12 text in the draft = any clearer about what

> the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking y= ou the same question as I

> asked Simon before (and only he answered):=

 

I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to a= ll the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the b= elow questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no impact on the actual prot= ocol).

 

-Tiru

 

>

> Does the draft assume:

>

> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that= are at different

> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an alloca= tion, distinguished by

> whether the request was received on its anycast addre= ss or its unicast

> address, OR

>

> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the= one at the anycast

> address being configured to respond with the error 30= 0, OR

>

> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300= and SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually are making TURN allocations.<= /o:p>

>

>

> We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the= method specified.

>

> /Karl

>

>

> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]

> Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18<= /p>

> Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins a= t IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined versi= on-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:= sperreault@jive.com]

> > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl <karl.stah= l@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.i= etf@gmail.com>

> > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>

> > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined= version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action:

> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> >

> > Karl,

> >

> > There is no consensus in the working group behin= d this new anycast

> > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the = draft, and the

> > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains.

>

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#= section-3.4 also discusses similar

> mechanism.

> I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism.

>

> -Tiru

>

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Simon

> >

> > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :<= o:p>

> > > The -12 version of the draft does not inclu= de major remedies of

> > > flaws that were un-addressed long before th= e DISCUSS, nor the latest

> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for au= to discovered turn

> > > servers provided the local or access networ= k administrator, see

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > For the latest discussed, see

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >>> However, I think we need agreement = on the justification for such a

> > >

> > >> change.

> > >

> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B)= , (C) and (D) of

> > >

> > >> https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, = is necessary to achieve (A)

> > >> and

> > > (B), and improves (C) and (D).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Brandon> It is true that you have provid= ed a justification for the

> change.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html<= /p>

> > >

> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to t= hrow into version -10

> > > during the discuss and remains in this vers= ion -11, breaking the

> > > consensus text since version -7.=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html<= /p>

> > >

> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS= as suggested by Oleg

> > > Moskalenko

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted = to the latest) redlining,

> > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 d= raft text as attached,

> > > for the author to copy from and paste.=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Without my red lining, current version -12 = is in conflict with

> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Ca= ses and Requirements)

> > > and does

> > not

> > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (= Recursively Encapsulated

> > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2)

> > >

> > > and it does not do what was set out in the = Charter and "Milestone 3:

> > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for en= terprise and ISPs"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (c= ompared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  changed the text " = ; 6.  Discovery using Anycast " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools= .ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-tu= rn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN = service discovery.  A packet

> > >

> > >    sent to an anycast addres= s is delivered to the "topologically

> > >

> > >    nearest" network int= erface with the anycast address.  Using the

> > > TURN

> > >

> > >    anycast address, the only= two things that need to be deployed in

> > > the

> > >

> > >    network for discovery are= the two things that actually use TURN.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >    When a client requires TU= RN services, it sends a TURN allocate

> > >

> > >    request to the assigned a= nycast address.  A TURN anycast server

> > >

> > >    performs checks 1 to 7 di= scussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].  If

> > > all

> > >

> > >    checks pass, the TURN any= cast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> > >

> > >    Alternate) error as descr= ibed in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The

> > >

> > >    response contains the TUR= N unicast address in the

> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > >

> > >    attribute.  For subs= equent communication with the TURN server,

> > > the

> > >

> > >    client uses the respondin= g server's unicast address.  This has to

> > > be

> > >

> > >    done because two packets = addressed to an anycast address may

> > > reach

> > >

> > >    two different anycast ser= vers.  The client, thus, also needs to

> > >

> > >    ensure that the initial r= equest fits in a single packet.  An

> > >

> > >    implementation may choose= to send out every new TURN Allocation

> > >

> > >    request to the anycast ad= dress to discover the closest and the

> > > most

> > >

> > >    optimal unicast address f= or the TURN server."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server= "  isnothing known nor

> > > described (in fact there would have to be T= WO TURN servers, one

> > > deployed at the anycast address and another= TURN server deployed at

> > > the unicast address, reacting differently t= o the Allocation request)

> > > for this to work as clarified in WG discuss= ions with Simon).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The last sentence "An  implementa= tion may choose to send out every

> > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast = address to discover the

> > > closest and the most optimal unicast addres= s for the TURN server."

> > > violates security and deployment considerat= ions (see red lined

> > > considerations in attached).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (c= ompared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  changed the text "7.2.&= nbsp; Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools= .ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-tu= rn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TUR= N server discovered through

> > the

> > >

> > >    mechanisms described in t= his specification as an

> > > enterprise/gateway

> > >

> > >    or access network server,= in accordance with Recursively

> > > Encapsulated

> > >

> > >    TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-ret= urn]."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The text is a contradiction, since the retu= rn draft deals with TURN

> > > servers provided by the local or access net= work, not other TURN

> > > servers discovered by this draft.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to = be an RFC!*

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 = attached is chimed into

> > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, = so we can avoid the

> > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"= process hinted about in

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,=

> > > further delaying what is needed for Interne= t real-time communication

> > > and especially for WebRTC.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > /Karl

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:t= ram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > IETF

> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* Simon Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action:=

> > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.tx= t

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi, Simon,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perre= ault <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <= mailto:sperreault@jiv= e.com>> wrote:

> > >

> > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at= IETF a =E9crit :

> > >> Dear TRAMsters,

> > >>

> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirum= aleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> > >> <tireddy@cisco.com=

> > >> <mailto:tireddy@cisc= o.com><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.co= m>>> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>     This revision a= ddresses comments from Brandon.

> > >>

> > >>     -Tiru

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to cle= ar the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

> > >

> > > Thanks for the reminder.<= /p>

> > >

> > > If my co-chair and the authors have no obje= ction, I think we're ready.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime= in, but I do want to

> > > ping Terry.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD bal= lot positions go away

> > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/= no objections now, and

> > > you need

> > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who= are stepping down in

> > > March

> > > ;-)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Spencer

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ___________________________________________= ____

> > > tram mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tra= m

> > >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Simon Perreault

> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communi= cations, Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

>

> _______________________________________________<= /o:p>

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tra= m

--_000_57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2XCHRCD017ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Feb 9 17:22:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392C7129648 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:22:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_MULTIPLE_AT=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ingate.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ksAIYhVtoy4D for ; Thu, 9 Feb 2017 17:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr50071.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.5.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3393129514 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 01:22:47 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0552_01D28344.8B62ABC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 Please see inline =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Tiru, =20 Each of your three sentences are incorrect. =20 And, > updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if = the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in = RFC5766.=20 =20 --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing =93MUST=94 for (D)TLS = usage under 9:=20 ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 and my question how the =93explicit administrator choice=94 is supposed = to happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not = answered. =20 [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the failure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the = user needs to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). [Karl] I suggest =93administrator=94 is then changed to =93user=94 so it = is not interpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft. =20 - I don=92t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its purpose). =20 Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft =96 that should = specify DISCOVERY =96 cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do = (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY). =20 [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot = defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766.=20 [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, considering that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN = servers.) =20 [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also = suggest you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has objected against) and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted to become = an RFC. =20 Thanks, Karl=20 =20 -Tiru =20 The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or mistakes. =20 We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. =20 /Karl =20 PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author=92s at the WG list is*: October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): = We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a = 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];=94 November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru=20 November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. -Tiru December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don=92t understand why the mechanism where = TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won=92t = work ? Cheers, -Tiru Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below =20 =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don=92t see = a need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. =20 Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism = and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism.=20 =20 Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS = is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against = the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon. =20 -Tiru =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:=20 [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server = reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). =20 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method = in the =9612 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication = Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict with.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.=20 =20 =20 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): =93(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: =20 (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server" (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" = for being discoverable by a certain method) =20 (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - = not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. = (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling this.) =20 =20 (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. =20 (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. =20 Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and improves (C) and (D).=94 =20 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html=20 Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red lined anycast method). =20 /Karl =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' > < sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins = at IETF' > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Tiru, >=20 > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): =20 I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below = questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have = no impact on the actual protocol). =20 -Tiru =20 >=20 > Does the draft assume: >=20 > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, = distinguished by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR >=20 > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR >=20 > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. >=20 >=20 > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified. >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [ mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl < = karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed = in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. = If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has = to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = > > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com> > > < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram ------=_NextPart_000_0552_01D28344.8B62ABC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi= Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your = inlines.

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: = tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined = version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi = Karl,

 

Please see = inline

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Ti= ru,

 

Ea= ch of your three sentences are incorrect.

 

An= d,

&g= t; updated in 12 = version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the network = infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. =

 

--= - And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding = (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing “MUST” for = (D)TLS usage under 9:

...and therefore = MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive = communication.

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.  =

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.  =

an= d my question how the “explicit = administrator choice&#= 8221;  is supposed to happen in an enterprise environment or at an = internet caf=E9 is not answered.

 

[TR] Explicit administrator choice means the = user is notified about the failure and fallback happens only after = consent from the user (i.e. the user needs to know that fallback happens = to a less secure mechanism).

[K= arl] I suggest “administrator” is then changed to = “user” so it is not interpreted as the network = administrator, in a version -13 of the draft.

 

- = I don’t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for = its purpose).

 

Pl= ease note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated  for = any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft – that = should specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the = discovery methods do (and cannot)  use (D)TLS (that discussion is = for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY).

 

[TR] No, = (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot defend = against the attacks discussed in RFC5766.

[Karl] That is = already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In addition to = being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, considering = that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this DISCOVERY draft = would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain situation, when = no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN = servers.)

 

[Karl] While = producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also suggest you also = include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has objected against) = and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted to become an = RFC.

 

Thanks,

Karl =

=A0

-Tiru

 

Th= e read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or = mistakes.

 

We= should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but = improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the = draft.

 

/K= arl

 

PS= : Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s at the WG list = is*:

Oc= tober 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): =  W= e intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little = better:

“A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to = 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN = anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as = described in [RFC5766];”

No= vember 15, 2016  (to = something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru =

No= vember 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. = -Tiru

De= cember 22, 2016 Hi = Karl, I don’t understand why the mechanism where TURN server has = both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won’t work ? = Cheers, -Tiru

No= w February 7, 8, 2016 See below

 

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi Karl,

 

We have = gone over the same points over and over again and I don’t see a = need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only = operational considerations and have no impact on the = protocol.

 

Secondly, = there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG = members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. =

 

Regarding = (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not = mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the = attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

1) The A)+B) = method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 = text and further referencing:

[Tiru = below]> "https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar = mechanism" does not help:

- It rather = states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached by = anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is = deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is = rare).

 

2) Further, = there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in the = –12 draft (compare the redlined version)

It does not = even discuss or list &n= bsp;RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) = that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict = with.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html = and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. =

 

 

3) And if the = (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in = some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) = exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we

need/want anycast = discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. = These

points = are:

 

(A) We = need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server"

(not = some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers = "invented" for

being = discoverable by a certain method)

 

(B) We = need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that = is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying = traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being = discoverable. (And

more = widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least

one discovery = method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where = a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only = anycast

using Binding for = querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling

this.)  =

 

(C) = Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly = preferable.

 

(D) = Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying = Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and

improves (C) and = (D).”

 

4) The = (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. =

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html = and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html =

Against my red = lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red = lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 <= /p>

-----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; = 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 <= /p>

> -----Original = Message-----

> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, = February 7, 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar = Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>; 'Simon Perreault'

> <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> Subject: Re: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> = Tiru,

> =

> That does not make = the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about = what

> the draft's anycast = method actually is. I am asking you the same question as = I

> asked Simon before = (and only he answered):

 <= /p>

I agree with the = responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. = Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in the = draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no = impact on the actual protocol).

 <= /p>

-Tiru

 <= /p>

> =

> Does the draft = assume:

> =

> (A) a TURN server = listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at = different

> subnets) that can = respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by

> whether the request = was received on its anycast address or its = unicast

> address, = OR

> =

> (B) we really have = TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast

> address being = configured to respond with the error 300, OR

> =

> (C) the FIRST = Allocate is responded to with error 300 and = SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually = are making TURN allocations.

> =

> =

> We cannot have an = RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified.

> =

> = /Karl

> =

> =

> -----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>]

> Skickat: den 7 = februari 2017 07:18

> Till: Simon = Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> > -----Original = Message-----

> > From: Simon = Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> > Sent: Friday, = February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl = <karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> > Cc: tram@ietf.org;= Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>

> > Subject: Re: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: = I-D

> = Action:

> > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> = >

> > = Karl,

> = >

> > There is no = consensus in the working group behind this new = anycast

> > mechanism. = Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and = the

> > mechanism = defined in RFC 5766 remains.

> =

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses = similar

> = mechanism.

> I don't see the = need for a new anycast mechanism.

> =

> = -Tiru

> =

> = >

> > = Thanks,

> > = Simon

> = >

> > Le 2017-02-02 = =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> > > The -12 = version of the draft does not include major remedies = of

> > > flaws = that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest

> > > regarding = the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered = turn

> > > servers = provided the local or access network administrator, = see

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > For the = latest discussed, see

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >>> = However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a

> > = >

> > >> = change.

> > = >

> > >> = [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) = of

> > = >

> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >> where = saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A)

> > >> = and

> > > (B), and = improves (C) and (D).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for = the

> = change.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > The = (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version = -10

> > > during = the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking = the

> > > consensus = text since version -7.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > STUN = dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by = Oleg

> > > = Moskalenko

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I have = inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining,

> > > removal = of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as = attached,

> > > for the = author to copy from and paste.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Without = my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict = with

> > > RFC7478 = (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and = Requirements)

> > > and = does

> > = not

> > > meet the = need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated

> > > TURN) = (see under redlined 7.2)

> > = >

> > > and it = does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3:

> > > TURN = server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and = ISPs"

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "  6.  Discovery using = Anycast " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > "IP = anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery.  A = packet

> > = >

> > = >    sent to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically

> > = >

> > = >    nearest" network interface with the anycast = address.  Using the

> > > = TURN

> > = >

> > = >    anycast address, the only two things that need to = be deployed in

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    network for discovery are the two things that = actually use TURN.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >    When a client requires TURN services, it sends a = TURN allocate

> > = >

> > = >    request to the assigned anycast address.  A = TURN anycast server

> > = >

> > = >    performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of [RFC5766].  If

> > > = all

> > = >

> > = >    checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond = with a 300 (Try

> > = >

> > = >    Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of = [RFC5766]; The

> > = >

> > = >    response contains the TURN unicast address in = the

> > > = ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > = >

> > = >    attribute.  For subsequent communication = with the TURN server,

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    client uses the responding server's unicast = address.  This has to

> > > = be

> > = >

> > = >    done because two packets addressed to an anycast = address may

> > > = reach

> > = >

> > = >    two different anycast servers.  The client, = thus, also needs to

> > = >

> > = >    ensure that the initial request fits in a single = packet.  An

> > = >

> > = >    implementation may choose to send out every new = TURN Allocation

> > = >

> > = >    request to the anycast address to discover the = closest and the

> > > = most

> > = >

> > = >    optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The = highlighted "A TURN anycast server"  isnothing known = nor

> > > described = (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, = one

> > > deployed = at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at

> > > the = unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request)

> > > for this = to work as clarified in WG discussions with = Simon).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The last = sentence "An  implementation may choose to send out = every

> > > new TURN = Allocation request to the anycast address to discover = the

> > > closest = and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > > violates = security and deployment considerations (see red = lined

> > > = considerations in attached).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "7.2.  Recursively = Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > = "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered = through

> > = the

> > = >

> > = >    mechanisms described in this specification as = an

> > > = enterprise/gateway

> > = >

> > = >    or access network server, in accordance with = Recursively

> > > = Encapsulated

> > = >

> > = >    TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The text = is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN

> > > servers = provided by the local or access network, not other = TURN

> > > servers = discovered by this draft.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > *Current = -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I suggest = the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed = into

> > > now and = quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid = the

> > > = "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about = in

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

=

> > > further = delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication

> > > and = especially for WebRTC.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = /Karl

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > = IETF

> > > = *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* = Simon Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* = tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > = (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* = Re: [tram] I-D Action:

> > > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Hi, = Simon,

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > On Thu, = Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> > = >

> > > Le = 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit = :

> > >> Dear = TRAMsters,

> > = >>

> > >> On = Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)

> > >> = <tireddy@cisco.com

> > >> = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> > = >>

> > = >>     This revision addresses comments from = Brandon.

> > = >>

> > = >>     -Tiru

> > = >>

> > = >>

> > >> How = close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS?

> > = >

> > > Thanks = for the reminder.

> > = >

> > > If my = co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I'll give = this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want = to

> > > ping = Terry.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > It's a = little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go = away

> > > when ADs = go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, = and

> > > you = need

> > > 10 for = approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down = in

> > > = March

> > > = ;-)

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Spencer

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = _______________________________________________

> > > tram = mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> > = >

> = >

> = >

> > = --

> > Simon = Perreault

> > Director of = Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, = Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

> =

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing = list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 04:56:51 -0000 --_000_2c2e50c5ab474493b71cf5c68df01c94XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Karl, Please see inline [TR2] From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Hi Karl, Please see inline From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Tiru, Each of your three sentences are incorrect. And, > updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the n= etwork infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding (D)T= LS usage in this situation, by introducing "MUST" for (D)TLS usage under 9: ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. and my question how the "explicit administrator choice" is supposed to hap= pen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not answered. [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the fai= lure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the user n= eeds to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). [Karl] I suggest "administrator" is then changed to "user" so it is not int= erpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft. [TR2] Sure, I can update draft. - I don't think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities (which aga= in seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its purpose). Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any usa= ge of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft - that should specify D= ISCOVERY - cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do (and cann= ot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY). [TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN auth= entication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STUN authentication is not= mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS. [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot defen= d against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In add= ition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, consider= ing that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this DISCOVERY draf= t would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain situation, when = no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN servers.) [TR2] I don't agree with your comments and don't plan to make any changes t= o (D)TLS related text in the draft unless I hear otherwise from other WG me= mbers and chairs. [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also suggest= you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has objected aga= inst) and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted to become an RF= C. [TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes including anycast, don'= t see any merit in your arguments and will let the WG chairs decide how to = proceed with the draft. -Tiru Thanks, Karl -Tiru The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or mistake= s. We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but improvemen= ts and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. /Karl PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in Augus= t 8, 2016, all from the Author's at the WG list is*: October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): We = intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: "A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of R= FC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300= (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];" November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alt= ernate mechanism. -Tiru December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don't understand why the mechanism where TURN = server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won't work ? C= heers, -Tiru Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Hi Karl, We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don't see a nee= d to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational c= onsiderations and have no impact on the protocol. Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and = WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is = not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the a= ttacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received from B= randon. -Tiru From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action= : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the dr= aft -12 text and further referencing: [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discuss= es similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached = by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deploy= ed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in = the -12 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use = Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) me= thod is in conflict with. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and des= cribed in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mai= l-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): "(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server= " (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" for being discoverable by a certain method) (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address fulfilling this.) (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) and (D)." 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as wi= th the red lined anycast method). /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IE= TF' > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Acti= on: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > Tiru, > > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about wh= at > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question= as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below ques= tions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in= the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no im= pact on the actual protocol). -Tiru > > Does the draft assume: > > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR > > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > > > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. > > /Karl > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Actio= n: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl >; '= Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <= tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses simil= ar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > > -Tiru > > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-dis= c > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins = at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; = Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > > > wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCU= SS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready= . > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram --_000_2c2e50c5ab474493b71cf5c68df01c94XCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Karl,

 

Please see inline [TR2= ]

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.co= m]
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon P= erreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spence= rdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after y= our inlines.

 

Fr=E5n: Tiruma= leswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy= @cisco.com]
Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Hi Karl,

 

Please see inline=

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' &= lt;spencerdawkins.ietf@gma= il.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Tiru,

 

Each of your three sentences are incorrect= .

 

And,

> updated in 12 version to say that (D)T= LS is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against= the attacks discussed in RFC5766.

 

--- And in addition It breaks the version = -07 consensus text regarding (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing= “MUST” for (D)TLS usage under 9:

...and ther= efore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication.

...but MUST= NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. 

...but MUST= NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. 

and my question how the “= ;explicit administrator choice&= #8221;  is supposed to happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet= caf=E9 is not answered.

 

[TR] Expli= cit administrator choice means the user is notified about the failure and f= allback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the user needs to kn= ow that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism).

[Karl] I suggest “admini= strator” is then changed to “user” so it is not interpret= ed as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft.<= /span>

 

[TR2] Sure, I can update draft.

 = ;

- I don’t think Brandon or anyone as= ked for such impossibilities (which again seem to be created to make this s= pecification unusable for its purpose).

 

Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS u= sage is not mandated  for any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (aga= in) this draft – that should specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do (and cannot)  use (D)= TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY).<= /p>

 

[TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC= 5766 mandates STUN authentication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STU= N authentication is not mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS.

 

[TR] No, (D)TLS is onl= y mandated if the network infrastructure cannot defend against the attacks = discussed in RFC5766.

[Karl] That is already cl= ear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In addition to being wrong, I m= eant it is also strange (and unnecessary, considering that dummy authentica= tion can achieve it better) if this DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain s= ituation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN servers.)

 

[TR2] I don’t agree with your comments and don= ’t plan to make any changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft unles= s I hear otherwise from other WG members and chairs.

 <= /p>

[Karl] While producing th= e above suggested -13 of the draft, I also suggest you also include all the= redlining I proposed (and no one has objected against) and I think we will= have a draft that can be accepted to become an RFC.

 

[TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes = including anycast, don’t see any merit in your arguments and will let= the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the draft.

 

-Tiru

 <= /p>

Thanks,=

Karl

 

-Tiru

 

The read lined -12 version is cleared from= these and other flaws or mistakes.

 

We should focus on whether the red lined v= ersion is anything but improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 = of the draft.

 

/Karl

 

PS: Regarding the non working anycast meth= od, *since I highlighted in August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s = at the WG list is*:

October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and= others during the discuss):  We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better:

“A TURN anycast se= rver performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all che= cks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) e= rror as described in [RFC5766];”

November 15, 2016  (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru

November 18, 2016 (to something from Br= andon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. -Tiru

December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don’t understand why = the mechanism where TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re= -direction won’t work ? Cheers, -Tiru

Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below

 

 

Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [= mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

Hi Karl,

 

We have gone over the = same points over and over again and I don’t see a need to document th= e discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations an= d have no impact on the protocol.

 

Secondly, there is no = consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG members have oppose= d your new anycast mechanism.

 

Regarding (D)TLS, the = draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use i= f the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RF= C5766. This update addresses comments received from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' &= lt;spencerdawkins.ietf@gma= il.com>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D= Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not= specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:

[Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4= also discusses similar mechanism" does not help:

- It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a= server reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or = really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare).

 

2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the = A)+B) method in the –12 draft (compare the redlined version)=

It does not even discuss or list  RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and R= equirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is= in conflict with.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg023= 14.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.

 

 

3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be prop= erly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (impor= tant) points why we

need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of A= llocate. These

points are:

 

(A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discoveri= ng "a TURN server"

(not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN serve= rs "invented" for

being discoverable by a certain method)<= /p>

 

(B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server = that is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relayin= g traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being d= iscoverable. (And

more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to = provide at least

one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see= only anycast

using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast add= ress fulfilling

this.) 

 

(C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable.

 

(D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (= A) and (B), and

improves (C) and (D).”=

 

4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus = either.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 296.html and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02= 297.html

Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objec= tions (just as with the red lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [= mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action:= draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: tram [= mailto:tram-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <= tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault'

> <sperreault@jive.com&= gt;; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <= spencerdawkins.ietf@g= mail.com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org

> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined vers= ion-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> Tiru,

>

> That does not make the version -12 text in the draft = any clearer about what

> the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking y= ou the same question as I

> asked Simon before (and only he answered):=

 

I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to a= ll the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the b= elow questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no impact on the actual prot= ocol).

 

-Tiru

 

>

> Does the draft assume:

>

> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that= are at different

> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an alloca= tion, distinguished by

> whether the request was received on its anycast addre= ss or its unicast

> address, OR

>

> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the= one at the anycast

> address being configured to respond with the error 30= 0, OR

>

> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300= and SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually are making TURN allocations.<= /o:p>

>

>

> We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the= method specified.

>

> /Karl

>

>

> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]

> Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18<= /p>

> Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins a= t IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined versi= on-12 WAS: I-D Action:

> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

>

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:= sperreault@jive.com]

> > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl <karl.stah= l@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.i= etf@gmail.com>

> > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>

> > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined= version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action:

> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> >

> > Karl,

> >

> > There is no consensus in the working group behin= d this new anycast

> > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the = draft, and the

> > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains.

>

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#= section-3.4 also discusses similar

> mechanism.

> I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism.

>

> -Tiru

>

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Simon

> >

> > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :<= o:p>

> > > The -12 version of the draft does not inclu= de major remedies of

> > > flaws that were un-addressed long before th= e DISCUSS, nor the latest

> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for au= to discovered turn

> > > servers provided the local or access networ= k administrator, see

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > For the latest discussed, see

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >>> However, I think we need agreement = on the justification for such a

> > >

> > >> change.

> > >

> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B)= , (C) and (D) of

> > >

> > >> https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html<= /p>

> > >

> > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, = is necessary to achieve (A)

> > >> and

> > > (B), and improves (C) and (D).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Brandon> It is true that you have provid= ed a justification for the

> change.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html<= /p>

> > >

> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to t= hrow into version -10

> > > during the discuss and remains in this vers= ion -11, breaking the

> > > consensus text since version -7.=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html<= /p>

> > >

> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS= as suggested by Oleg

> > > Moskalenko

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted = to the latest) redlining,

> > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 d= raft text as attached,

> > > for the author to copy from and paste.=

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Without my red lining, current version -12 = is in conflict with

> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Ca= ses and Requirements)

> > > and does

> > not

> > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (= Recursively Encapsulated

> > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2)

> > >

> > > and it does not do what was set out in the = Charter and "Milestone 3:

> > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for en= terprise and ISPs"

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (c= ompared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  changed the text " = ; 6.  Discovery using Anycast " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools= .ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-tu= rn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN = service discovery.  A packet

> > >

> > >    sent to an anycast addres= s is delivered to the "topologically

> > >

> > >    nearest" network int= erface with the anycast address.  Using the

> > > TURN

> > >

> > >    anycast address, the only= two things that need to be deployed in

> > > the

> > >

> > >    network for discovery are= the two things that actually use TURN.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >    When a client requires TU= RN services, it sends a TURN allocate

> > >

> > >    request to the assigned a= nycast address.  A TURN anycast server

> > >

> > >    performs checks 1 to 7 di= scussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].  If

> > > all

> > >

> > >    checks pass, the TURN any= cast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> > >

> > >    Alternate) error as descr= ibed in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The

> > >

> > >    response contains the TUR= N unicast address in the

> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > >

> > >    attribute.  For subs= equent communication with the TURN server,

> > > the

> > >

> > >    client uses the respondin= g server's unicast address.  This has to

> > > be

> > >

> > >    done because two packets = addressed to an anycast address may

> > > reach

> > >

> > >    two different anycast ser= vers.  The client, thus, also needs to

> > >

> > >    ensure that the initial r= equest fits in a single packet.  An

> > >

> > >    implementation may choose= to send out every new TURN Allocation

> > >

> > >    request to the anycast ad= dress to discover the closest and the

> > > most

> > >

> > >    optimal unicast address f= or the TURN server."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server= "  isnothing known nor

> > > described (in fact there would have to be T= WO TURN servers, one

> > > deployed at the anycast address and another= TURN server deployed at

> > > the unicast address, reacting differently t= o the Allocation request)

> > > for this to work as clarified in WG discuss= ions with Simon).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The last sentence "An  implementa= tion may choose to send out every

> > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast = address to discover the

> > > closest and the most optimal unicast addres= s for the TURN server."

> > > violates security and deployment considerat= ions (see red lined

> > > considerations in attached).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (c= ompared to from before

> > > DISCUSS)  changed the text "7.2.&= nbsp; Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > >

> > > https://tools= .ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-tu= rn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > >

> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TUR= N server discovered through

> > the

> > >

> > >    mechanisms described in t= his specification as an

> > > enterprise/gateway

> > >

> > >    or access network server,= in accordance with Recursively

> > > Encapsulated

> > >

> > >    TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-ret= urn]."

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The text is a contradiction, since the retu= rn draft deals with TURN

> > > servers provided by the local or access net= work, not other TURN

> > > servers discovered by this draft.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to = be an RFC!*

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 = attached is chimed into

> > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, = so we can avoid the

> > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"= process hinted about in

> > >

> > > https://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,=

> > > further delaying what is needed for Interne= t real-time communication

> > > and especially for WebRTC.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > /Karl

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:t= ram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > IETF

> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* Simon Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org <<= span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action:=

> > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.tx= t

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi, Simon,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perre= ault <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <= mailto:sperreault@jiv= e.com>> wrote:

> > >

> > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at= IETF a =E9crit :

> > >> Dear TRAMsters,

> > >>

> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirum= aleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> > >> <tireddy@cisco.com=

> > >> <mailto:tireddy@cisc= o.com><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.co= m>>> wrote:

> > >>

> > >>     This revision a= ddresses comments from Brandon.

> > >>

> > >>     -Tiru

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to cle= ar the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

> > >

> > > Thanks for the reminder.<= /p>

> > >

> > > If my co-chair and the authors have no obje= ction, I think we're ready.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime= in, but I do want to

> > > ping Terry.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD bal= lot positions go away

> > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/= no objections now, and

> > > you need

> > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who= are stepping down in

> > > March

> > > ;-)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Spencer

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ___________________________________________= ____

> > > tram mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tra= m

> > >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Simon Perreault

> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communi= cations, Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

>

> _______________________________________________<= /o:p>

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org

> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tra= m

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:20:46 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_05B9_01D283A8.D5FCBAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tiru, below again =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 10 februari 2017 05:57 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 Please see inline [TR2] =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 Please see inline =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Tiru, =20 Each of your three sentences are incorrect. =20 And, > updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if = the network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in = RFC5766.=20 =20 --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing =93MUST=94 for (D)TLS = usage under 9:=20 ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. =20 and my question how the =93explicit administrator choice=94 is supposed = to happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not = answered. =20 [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the failure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the = user needs to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). [Karl] I suggest =93administrator=94 is then changed to =93user=94 so it = is not interpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft. =20 [TR2] Sure, I can update draft. [Karl2] But please notice, that this only clarifies the draft, it is = still a nuisance for a user and a general webRTC browser (that will be used = under such conditions) and that was not what Brandon or anyone else asked for. Recommending the STUN dummy authentication instead, resolves the (D)TLS break of consensus of the version -07 text, including the performance concerns raised by Pal-Erik and others, as well as other objections. =20 - I don=92t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its purpose). =20 Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft =96 that should = specify DISCOVERY =96 cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods do = (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY). =20 [TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN authentication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STUN authentication = is not mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS.=20 [Karl2] Yes, we agree. It is only this draft, version -10 to -12 draft = that suggests to mandate usage of (D)TLS (Please free us from that) =20 [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot = defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766.=20 [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, considering that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN = servers.) =20 [TR2] I don=92t agree with your comments and don=92t plan to make any = changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft unless I hear otherwise from other WG members and chairs. =20 [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also = suggest you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has objected against) and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted to become = an RFC. =20 [TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes including anycast, = don=92t see any merit in your arguments=20 [Karl2] =85 and ignoring Brandon=92s:=20 > It is true that you have provided a justification for the change.=20 > My point is that the small set of people=85=20 As responded to:=20 >> [Karl Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html=20 >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and (B), and improves (C) and (D). =20 and will let the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the draft. =20 [Karl2] Well, we need a specification that is defined and fulfill its purpose and thus can be made an RFC.=20 Can you specify what and explain why any of the red lined suggestions to = the version -12 text would go against this (or is there nothing)? (As a guidance to those you ask for =93decide how to proceed with the = draft.=94) =20 /Karl =20 -Tiru =20 Thanks, Karl=20 =20 -Tiru =20 The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or mistakes. =20 We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. =20 /Karl =20 PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author=92s at the WG list is*: October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): = We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a = 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];=94 November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru=20 November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. -Tiru December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don=92t understand why the mechanism where = TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won=92t = work ? Cheers, -Tiru Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below =20 =20 Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Hi Karl, =20 We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don=92t see = a need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. =20 Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism = and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism.=20 =20 Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS = is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against = the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon. =20 -Tiru =20 From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; 'Simon Perreault' ; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 text and further referencing:=20 [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server = reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). =20 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method = in the =9612 draft (compare the redlined version) It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication = Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict with.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html.=20 =20 =20 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html): =93(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These points are: =20 (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server" (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" = for being discoverable by a certain method) =20 (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - = not requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. = (And more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations, where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling this.) =20 =20 (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. =20 (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. =20 Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and improves (C) and (D).=94 =20 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either.=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html and=20 https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html=20 Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red lined anycast method). =20 /Karl =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com]=20 Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon Perreault' > < sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins = at IETF' > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > Tiru, >=20 > That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I > asked Simon before (and only he answered): =20 I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below = questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations (and have = no impact on the actual protocol). =20 -Tiru =20 >=20 > Does the draft assume: >=20 > (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, = distinguished by > whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > address, OR >=20 > (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast > address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR >=20 > (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. >=20 >=20 > We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified. >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [ mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > > To: Karl Stahl < = karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > < = spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> > > Cc: tram@ietf.org; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) < tireddy@cisco.com> > > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 > Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar > mechanism. > I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest > > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a > > > > > >> change. > > > > > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > > > > > >> = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A) > > >> and > > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > > > > > > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > > > consensus text since version -7. > > > > > > > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > > > Moskalenko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining, > > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > > > for the author to copy from and paste. > > > > > > > > > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > > > and does > > not > > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated > > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > > > > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3: > > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > > > > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > > > > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > > > TURN > > > > > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed = in > > > the > > > > > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. > > > > > > > > > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > > > > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > > > > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. = If > > > all > > > > > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > > > > > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > > > > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > > > > > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > > > the > > > > > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has = to > > > be > > > > > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > > > reach > > > > > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > > > > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > > > > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > > > > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > > > most > > > > > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > > > > > > > > > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at > > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) > > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > > > considerations in attached). > > > > > > > > > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > > the > > > > > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > > > enterprise/gateway > > > > > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > > > Encapsulated > > > > > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > > > > > > > > > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN > > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > > > servers discovered by this draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > > > > > > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > > > > > = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html, > > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication > > > and especially for WebRTC. > > > > > > > > > > > > /Karl > > > > > > > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at > > > IETF > > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy > > > (tireddy) > > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = > > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > > >> Dear TRAMsters, > > >> > > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > >> > >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com> > > < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: > > >> > > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > >> > > >> -Tiru > > >> > > >> > > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > > > > > Thanks for the reminder. > > > > > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > > > ping Terry. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > > > you need > > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > > > March > > > ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tram mailing list > > > tram@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram ------=_NextPart_000_05B9_01D283A8.D5FCBAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi= Tiru, below again

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 10 februari 2017 05:57
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: = tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined = version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi = Karl,

 

Please see = inline [TR2]

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi= Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your = inlines.

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 9 februari 2017 15:34
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi = Karl,

 

Please see = inline

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Ti= ru,

 

Ea= ch of your three sentences are incorrect.

 

An= d,

&g= t; updated in 12 = version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the network = infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. =

 

--= - And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding = (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing “MUST” for = (D)TLS usage under 9:

...and therefore = MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive = communication.

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.  =

...but MUST NOT = fall back without explicit administrator choice.  =

an= d my question how the “explicit = administrator choice&#= 8221;  is supposed to happen in an enterprise environment or at an = internet caf=E9 is not answered.

 

[TR] Explicit administrator choice means the = user is notified about the failure and fallback happens only after = consent from the user (i.e. the user needs to know that fallback happens = to a less secure mechanism).

[K= arl] I suggest “administrator” is then changed to = “user” so it is not interpreted as the network = administrator, in a version -13 of the draft.

 

[TR2] Sure, I can update = draft.

[Karl2] But please notice, that this only clarifies = the draft, it is still a nuisance for a user and a general webRTC = browser (that will be used under such conditions) and that was not what = Br= andon or anyone else asked for. Recommending the STUN dummy = authentication instead, resolves the (D)TLS break of consensus of the = version -07 text, including the performance concerns raised by Pal-Erik = and others, as well as other objections.

 

- = I don’t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for = its purpose).

 

Pl= ease note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated  for = any usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft – that = should specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the = discovery methods do (and cannot)  use (D)TLS (that discussion is = for USAGE, AFTER the DISCOVERY).

 

[TR2] Other drafts do not mandate = (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN authentication, this draft updates = RFC5766 by saying STUN authentication is not mandatory hence it is = mandating (D)TLS.

[Karl2] Yes, we agree. It is only this = draft, version -10 to -12 draft that suggests to mandate usage of (D)TLS = (Please free us from that)

 

[TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network = infrastructure cannot defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. =

[Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My = comment remains (In addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange = (and unnecessary, considering that dummy authentication can achieve it = better) if this DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server = usage in a certain situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for = usage of TURN servers.)

 

[TR2] I don’t agree with your comments and = don’t plan to make any changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft = unless I hear otherwise from other WG members and = chairs.

 

[Karl] While = producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also suggest you also = include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has objected against) = and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted to become an = RFC.

 

[TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes = including anycast, don’t see any merit in your arguments

[K= arl2] … and ignoring Brandon’s:

> It is true that you have = provided a justification for the change.

> My =A0point is that the = small set of people…

As= responded to:

&g= t;> [Karl Justification is in the (A), (B), = (C) and (D) of

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.= html

>> where saying Binding = instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) = and (D).

 

and = will let the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the = draft.

 

[K= arl2] Well, we need a specification that is defined and fulfill its = purpose and thus can be made an RFC.

Ca= n you specify what and explain why any of the red lined suggestions to = the version -12 text would go against this (or is there = nothing)?

(A= s a guidance to those you ask for “decide how to proceed with the draft.&#= 8221;)

 

/K= arl

 

-Tiru

 

Thanks,

Karl =

 

-Tiru

 

Th= e read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or = mistakes.

 

We= should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but = improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the = draft.

 

/K= arl

 

PS= : Regarding the non working anycast method, *since I highlighted in = August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s at the WG list = is*:

Oc= tober 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): =  W= e intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little = better:

“A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to = 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN = anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as = described in [RFC5766];”

No= vember 15, 2016  (to = something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru =

No= vember 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for alternate mechanism. = -Tiru

De= cember 22, 2016 Hi = Karl, I don’t understand why the mechanism where TURN server has = both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won’t work ? = Cheers, -Tiru

No= w February 7, 8, 2016 See below

 

 

Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 8 februari 2017 09:51
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Hi Karl,

 

We have = gone over the same points over and over again and I don’t see a = need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only = operational considerations and have no impact on the = protocol.

 

Secondly, = there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism and WG = members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. =

 

Regarding = (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not = mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against the = attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments received = from Brandon.

 

-Tiru

 

From: Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] =
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM
To: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com>; 'Simon = Perreault' <sperreault@jive.com>; = 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Cc: tram@ietf.org
Subject: SV: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

1) The A)+B) = method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the draft -12 = text and further referencing:

[Tiru = below]> "https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar = mechanism" does not help:

- It rather = states issues coming from not knowing whether a server reached by = anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or really is = deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is = rare).

 

2) Further, = there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method in the = –12 draft (compare the redlined version)

It does not = even discuss or list &n= bsp;RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) = that it is supposed to meet, but which the A)+B) method is in conflict = with.

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html = and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html. =

 

 

3) And if the = (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and described in = some future revision, then remains (from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html):

“(trying to) = exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we

need/want anycast = discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. = These

points = are:

 

(A) We = need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN = server"

(not = some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers = "invented" for

being = discoverable by a certain method)

 

(B) We = need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that = is

setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying = traffic) - not

requiring a special network configuration just for being = discoverable. (And

more = widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least

one discovery = method that works for ALL network types and = configurations,

where = a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only = anycast

using Binding for = querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling

this.)  =

 

(C) = Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly = preferable.

 

(D) = Ease of deployment is highly preferable.

 

Saying = Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and

improves (C) and = (D).”

 

4) The = (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. =

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html = and

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html =

Against my red = lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as with the red = lined anycast method).

 

/Karl

 

 <= /p>

-----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] =
Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02
Till: Karl Stahl; = 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'
Kopia: tram@ietf.org
=C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 <= /p>

> -----Original = Message-----

> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl

> Sent: Tuesday, = February 7, 2017 4:02 PM

> To: Tirumaleswar = Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>; 'Simon Perreault'

> <sperreault@jive.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> Cc: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> Subject: Re: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> = Tiru,

> =

> That does not make = the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about = what

> the draft's anycast = method actually is. I am asking you the same question as = I

> asked Simon before = (and only he answered):

 <= /p>

I agree with the = responses Simon has already provided to all the below questions. = Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below questions in the = draft because they are only operational considerations (and have no = impact on the actual protocol).

 <= /p>

-Tiru

 <= /p>

> =

> Does the draft = assume:

> =

> (A) a TURN server = listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at = different

> subnets) that can = respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished = by

> whether the request = was received on its anycast address or its = unicast

> address, = OR

> =

> (B) we really have = TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast

> address being = configured to respond with the error 300, OR

> =

> (C) the FIRST = Allocate is responded to with error 300 and = SUBSEQUENT

> Allocates actually = are making TURN allocations.

> =

> =

> We cannot have an = RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified.

> =

> = /Karl

> =

> =

> -----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>]

> Skickat: den 7 = februari 2017 07:18

> Till: Simon = Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> =C4mne: RE: [tram] = Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> =

> > -----Original = Message-----

> > From: Simon = Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> > Sent: Friday, = February 3, 2017 7:13 PM

> > To: Karl Stahl = <karl.stahl@ingate.com>; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> > <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail= .com>

> > Cc: tram@ietf.org;= Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) <tireddy@cisco.com<= /a>>

> > Subject: Re: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: = I-D

> = Action:

> > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> = >

> > = Karl,

> = >

> > There is no = consensus in the working group behind this new = anycast

> > mechanism. = Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and = the

> > mechanism = defined in RFC 5766 remains.

> =

> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses = similar

> = mechanism.

> I don't see the = need for a new anycast mechanism.

> =

> = -Tiru

> =

> = >

> > = Thanks,

> > = Simon

> = >

> > Le 2017-02-02 = =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> > > The -12 = version of the draft does not include major remedies = of

> > > flaws = that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest

> > > regarding = the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered = turn

> > > servers = provided the local or access network administrator, = see

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > For the = latest discussed, see

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >>> = However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such = a

> > = >

> > >> = change.

> > = >

> > >> = [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) = of

> > = >

> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > >> where = saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A)

> > >> = and

> > > (B), and = improves (C) and (D).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for = the

> = change.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > The = (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version = -10

> > > during = the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking = the

> > > consensus = text since version -7.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

<= p class=3DMsoPlainText>> > = >

> > > STUN = dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by = Oleg

> > > = Moskalenko

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I have = inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining,

> > > removal = of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as = attached,

> > > for the = author to copy from and paste.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Without = my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict = with

> > > RFC7478 = (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and = Requirements)

> > > and = does

> > = not

> > > meet the = need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated

> > > TURN) = (see under redlined 7.2)

> > = >

> > > and it = does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3:

> > > TURN = server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and = ISPs"

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "  6.  Discovery using = Anycast " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > "IP = anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery.  A = packet

> > = >

> > = >    sent to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically

> > = >

> > = >    nearest" network interface with the anycast = address.  Using the

> > > = TURN

> > = >

> > = >    anycast address, the only two things that need to = be deployed in

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    network for discovery are the two things that = actually use TURN.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >    When a client requires TURN services, it sends a = TURN allocate

> > = >

> > = >    request to the assigned anycast address.  A = TURN anycast server

> > = >

> > = >    performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 = of [RFC5766].  If

> > > = all

> > = >

> > = >    checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond = with a 300 (Try

> > = >

> > = >    Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of = [RFC5766]; The

> > = >

> > = >    response contains the TURN unicast address in = the

> > > = ALTERNATE-SERVER

> > = >

> > = >    attribute.  For subsequent communication = with the TURN server,

> > > = the

> > = >

> > = >    client uses the responding server's unicast = address.  This has to

> > > = be

> > = >

> > = >    done because two packets addressed to an anycast = address may

> > > = reach

> > = >

> > = >    two different anycast servers.  The client, = thus, also needs to

> > = >

> > = >    ensure that the initial request fits in a single = packet.  An

> > = >

> > = >    implementation may choose to send out every new = TURN Allocation

> > = >

> > = >    request to the anycast address to discover the = closest and the

> > > = most

> > = >

> > = >    optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The = highlighted "A TURN anycast server"  isnothing known = nor

> > > described = (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, = one

> > > deployed = at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at

> > > the = unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request)

> > > for this = to work as clarified in WG discussions with = Simon).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The last = sentence "An  implementation may choose to send out = every

> > > new TURN = Allocation request to the anycast address to discover = the

> > > closest = and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server."

> > > violates = security and deployment considerations (see red = lined

> > > = considerations in attached).

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Further, = the authors have in version -12 (compared to from = before

> > > = DISCUSS)  changed the text "7.2.  Recursively = Encapsulated TURN " to:

> > = >

> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc

> > > ov = ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > > = "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered = through

> > = the

> > = >

> > = >    mechanisms described in this specification as = an

> > > = enterprise/gateway

> > = >

> > = >    or access network server, in accordance with = Recursively

> > > = Encapsulated

> > = >

> > = >    TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]."

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > The text = is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN

> > > servers = provided by the local or access network, not other = TURN

> > > servers = discovered by this draft.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > *Current = -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I suggest = the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed = into

> > > now and = quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid = the

> > > = "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about = in

> > = >

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html,

=

> > > further = delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication

> > > and = especially for WebRTC.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = /Karl

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at

> > > = IETF

> > > = *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12

> > > *Till:* = Simon Perreault

> > > *Kopia:* = tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>; Tirumaleswar Reddy

> > > = (tireddy)

> > > *=C4mne:* = Re: [tram] I-D Action:

> > > = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > Hi, = Simon,

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > On Thu, = Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = <sperreault@jive.com

> > > <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> > = >

> > > Le = 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit = :

> > >> Dear = TRAMsters,

> > = >>

> > >> On = Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)

> > >> = <tireddy@cisco.com

> > >> = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> > > <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> > = >>

> > = >>     This revision addresses comments from = Brandon.

> > = >>

> > = >>     -Tiru

> > = >>

> > = >>

> > >> How = close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS?

> > = >

> > > Thanks = for the reminder.

> > = >

> > > If my = co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > I'll give = this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want = to

> > > ping = Terry.

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > It's a = little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go = away

> > > when ADs = go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, = and

> > > you = need

> > > 10 for = approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down = in

> > > = March

> > > = ;-)

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = Spencer

> > = >

> > = >

> > = >

> > > = _______________________________________________

> > > tram = mailing list

> > > tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> > = >

> = >

> = >

> > = --

> > Simon = Perreault

> > Director of = Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, = Inc.

> > https://jive.com | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

> =

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing = list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

------=_NextPart_000_05B9_01D283A8.D5FCBAE0-- From nobody Sun Feb 12 07:05:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4951297CC for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:05:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ckUNu-PCiWri for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com [96.6.114.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FE712973E for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1597616BEAD for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:05:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com [172.27.22.71]) by prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0929116BE9A for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:05:06 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486911906; bh=groD1Ov9/qEreXcInjkX4j3iad3Cr59UfruYEY08F7I=; l=2957; h=To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=LthiBl0ZUZEbrELdIAkdRBPTzTq4YdeEQ0K1yHWUeI4ddyrcL9GpL5/2ibpZZSmfG JCIQUY8MtJxGhXHFjizgQ3VrQDuJcs0NZAoY0KTXad5I4oDB7wLQvxdLndUYNHW7gZ AGMoE407dnvcd+m80L5OHyuDdCSfeD7jf0Zyd9Hc= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2598980A5 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:05:05 +0000 (GMT) To: tram@ietf.org References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <0ca63b02-ec8b-623a-b256-bdf00c565ed4@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:05:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:05:08 -0000 Just so it's clear on the list ... The new text in this draft does indeed represent the compromise position re: (D)TLS that I had previously proposed on the list, and I agree with Tiru and the chairs that it should clear the remaining DISCUSS. [I know I'm a little late to chime in on that last point, but later discussion on the list suggests that a supportive comment might still be useful.] --Brandon On 01/12/2017 10:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > > -Tiru > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- >> drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 9:28 AM >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Cc: tram@ietf.org >> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. >> >> Title : TURN Server Auto Discovery >> Authors : Prashanth Patil >> Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Dan Wing >> Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >> Pages : 16 >> Date : 2017-01-12 >> >> Abstract: >> Current Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN) server discovery >> mechanisms are relatively static and limited to explicit >> configuration. These are usually under the administrative control of >> the application or TURN service provider, and not the enterprise, >> ISP, or the network in which the client is located. Enterprises and >> ISPs wishing to provide their own TURN servers need auto discovery >> mechanisms that a TURN client could use with no or minimal >> configuration. This document describes three such mechanisms for >> TURN server discovery. >> >> This draft updates [RFC5766] to relax the requirement for mutual >> authentication in certain cases. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Sun Feb 12 07:21:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCAF1297FE for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:21:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bWuCS0expKxG for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com [96.6.114.112]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F5E11294E3 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 07:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009C620000C; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:21:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com [172.27.22.68]) by prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC518200009; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:21:19 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486912879; bh=l1dOFQkUQCj6n/DrIlO4oO+bB+FngdmI9dveZ1KMvCE=; l=10088; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EEC6fKivVulvvRB8/eR8mUC90DasKG56qPyEQdZwVksLfHlQVBZsj3sqjo/lGqDoY NpYC29TCi/mY2a/LhYnjRw/svn8HJOVUyQcTWRfEYGC/k6sgXee37S/1SW3BgCZr8J MyhOROEW+6QGQLtrnTPMZ9qhIhx6fj5ZdAVGjRHg= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93DCE1E093; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:21:19 +0000 (GMT) To: Karl Stahl , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' , 'Simon Perreault' References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <002101d27dab$67718c20$3654a460$@stahl@ingate.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:21:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <002101d27dab$67718c20$3654a460$@stahl@ingate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org, "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 15:21:22 -0000 Karl, I haven't read the redlined version and am only responding to your use of a quote from me. In the mail that you quote from, my full comment was: "It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. My point is that the small set of people who have engaged in list discussion do not appear to agree with your justification." In other words, there is no consensus on the list about your justification. I and others are unwilling to consider changing the current draft until we have first agreed that a change is necessary. --Brandon On 02/02/2017 06:23 PM, Karl Stahl wrote: > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding > the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the > local or access network administrator, see > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > > > > > For the latest discussed, see > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> change. > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during > the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text > since version -7. > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg Moskalenko > > > > > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > the author to copy from and paste. > > > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and “Milestone 3: > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs” > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text “ 6. Discovery using Anycast “ to: > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > “IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the TURN > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to be > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” > > > > The highlighted “A TURN anycast server” isnothing known nor described > (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast address, > reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as > clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > > > > The last sentence “An implementation may choose to send out every new > TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” violates > security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations in > attached). > > > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > DISCUSS) changed the text “7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ to: > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through the > > mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively Encapsulated > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].” > > > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers > discovered by this draft. > > > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > > > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and > especially for WebRTC. > > > > /Karl > > > > *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > *Till:* Simon Perreault > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi, Simon, > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault > wrote: > > Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : >> Dear TRAMsters, >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >> >> wrote: >> >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. >> >> -Tiru >> >> >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > > Thanks for the reminder. > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > > > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > Terry. > > > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 > for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) > > > > Spencer > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Sun Feb 12 08:10:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DC129A71 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:10:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9pM_S98Sb29f for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com [96.6.114.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF44129A72 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E6A16C67A; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:10:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com [172.27.22.68]) by prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FAAD16C66D; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:10:00 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486915800; bh=myiNwCkATuo6zzafqHXqBrTFxcJL2U3u6YVT1XbkaP8=; l=20433; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nFrkWoYWxsOYrFHqtyj/IqsXyGzziETIJerCV2Kf6Jm4+C0TiP4MFhu9+mKAd6ucy gA7WmscSpgiqSM3JQLn81yw9IFilc721j4/I/EKCA/vDX4WTt1E/nq1+0ymXYxen9h yFIOqHXqOZO5CVKMyG/Or1ziBV9BhigEIFeTXh+w= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7661E094; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:09:59 +0000 (GMT) To: Karl Stahl , 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' , tram@ietf.org References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <018401d28061$3a85dc80$af919580$@stahl@ingate.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <218f8e47-12fe-6b88-79c2-3482a8f9f3a5@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:09:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <018401d28061$3a85dc80$af919580$@stahl@ingate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:10:04 -0000 Karl, My sense of the discussion is that there is in fact consensus on the anycast mechanism as described in the draft, and there has been for quite some time. That is why the draft was submitted for publishing in the first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the WG failed to follow IETF process for reaching consensus. Since we already have rough consensus on the mechanism and we clearly do not have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires changes, I support the chairs' decision to move forward. --Brandon On 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Simon, > > > > There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, > but we have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, > that works for all cases, which no one has disputed as working and that > is technically superior. > > > > Further, it does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and what > is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted > radically different by participating WG individuals. > > > > Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version -10 > (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html > ) > > > referenced https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9 > , > which says: > > "This version of TURN has been designed to **permit the future > specification of a method** of doing anycast discovery of a TURN server > over UDP. > > > > Previous to my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to > discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the > DISCUSS) (in August, > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html > ) > but that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded responded, > but from an authentication point of view, as if the method meant a > mixture of discovery and usage, which was confusing). > > > > During the DISCUSS, in response to my request to fix, Prashanth only > said: We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a > little better: > > “A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]” > > [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or does “TURN anycast server” > imply that there ALSO is a “TURN unicast server” at the same interface > accepting the Allocate request? > > > > That was never responded to and in your discussion with me: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html > > > > [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP > addresses that > >> can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether the > >> request was received on its anycast address or its unicast address, > > > > [Simon] Correct. > > > > [Karl]> and I > >> think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we really have > >> TWO TURN servers to play with, > > > > [Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment scenario. > > > > [Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft -10 > >> text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > >> Allocates actually are making allocations. > > > > [Simon] No, that would be wrong. > > > > NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may be > in the author’s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled > out), it is NOT the “TWO LAN IP TURN servers” but *the “**No, that would > be wrong.**”-method that is intended*, see these highlights in the -12 text! > > IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent to > an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network > interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. Using > the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed > in the network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request > to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks 1 > to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766] > . > If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766] > ; > The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > attribute. For *subsequent*communication with *the*TURN server, the > client uses theresponding server's unicast address. This has to be done > because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach two > different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that > the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may > choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast > address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address for > the TURN server. > > I think other participants in the discussion, also interpret the -12 > text as the “that would be wrong”-variant, or even worse, a mixture of > discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come > in(https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > )). > > > > So, current version -12 meaning of text is probably not only “wrong”, > but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can have > no consensus, nor can that be brought into an RFC. > > > > > > In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working anycast > mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases > (which no one has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration “in > Alan Johnston / Avaya style (compare > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2555 > )” > where any party can use the proposed anycast method (for which patent > was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as long > as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us.My IPR > Declaration related to this I-D should appear in day (said when submitting). > > > > /Karl > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' > Ämne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism > > defined in RFC 5766 remains. > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 à 18:23, Karl Stahl a écrit : > >> The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > >> that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding > >> the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the > >> local or access network administrator, see > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > >> > >> > >> > >> For the latest discussed, see > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > >> > >>>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> > >>> change. > >> > >>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> > >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and > >> (B), and improves (C) and (D). > >> > >> > >> > >> Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > >> > >> The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during > >> the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text > >> since version -7. > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > >> > >> STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > Moskalenko > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > >> removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > >> the author to copy from and paste. > >> > >> > >> > >> Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > >> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not > >> meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > >> TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > >> > >> and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and “Milestone 3: > >> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs” > >> > >> > >> > >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> DISCUSS) changed the text “ 6. Discovery using Anycast “ to: > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > >> > >> “IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > >> > >> sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > >> > >> nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the TURN > >> > >> anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the > >> > >> network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > >> > >> > >> > >> When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > >> > >> request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > >> > >> performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all > >> > >> checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > >> > >> Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > >> > >> response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > >> > >> attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the > >> > >> client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to be > >> > >> done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach > >> > >> two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > >> > >> ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > >> > >> implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > >> > >> request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most > >> > >> optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” > >> > >> > >> > >> The highlighted “A TURN anycast server” isnothing known nor described > >> (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > >> anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast address, > >> reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as > >> clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > >> > >> > >> > >> The last sentence “An implementation may choose to send out every new > >> TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > >> and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” violates > >> security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations in > >> attached). > >> > >> > >> > >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> DISCUSS) changed the text “7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ to: > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > >> > >> “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through the > >> > >> mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway > >> > >> or access network server, in accordance with Recursively Encapsulated > >> > >> TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].” > >> > >> > >> > >> The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > >> servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers > >> discovered by this draft. > >> > >> > >> > >> *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > >> > >> > >> > >> I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > >> and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > >> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > >> further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and > >> especially for WebRTC. > >> > >> > >> > >> /Karl > >> > >> > >> > >> *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > >> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > >> *Till:* Simon Perreault > >> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; > Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, Simon, > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault >> > wrote: > >> > >> Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > >>> Dear TRAMsters, > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >>> > >> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >>> > >>> -Tiru > >>> > >>> > >>> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > >> > >> Thanks for the reminder. > >> > >> If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > >> > >> > >> > >> I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > >> Terry. > >> > >> > >> > >> It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > >> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 > >> for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Spencer > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >> > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com > > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Sun Feb 12 08:13:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4120D129887 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:13:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2o5BITJdf3pE for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com [23.79.238.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA35129886 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB70043340B; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:13:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay05.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4689433401; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:13:15 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486915995; bh=ksXQTL9RbJOKNoJ/UNrJ2nrg/plJpQ8DO4aDHOw4KGQ=; l=20625; h=From:To:References:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=tN6vOyYrLEFXw+4dnoskyuBZRQVytaRWBQe4/vFvWV/66NyqRAXecMsdppB4uD1dC o3nivgpag+9r+gEWlDYrQNivo9q1/3AHBfDgn1VkCQFB7jypgEn7AYjgDt9vZ3Gt3/ XC+CCjatxnYNjDjNmwDKpIh4T5wYu1wOo136Vl7w= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5ED91FC88; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:13:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Brandon Williams To: Karl Stahl , 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' , tram@ietf.org References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <018401d28061$3a85dc80$af919580$@stahl@ingate.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:13:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <018401d28061$3a85dc80$af919580$@stahl@ingate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "'Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)'" Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:13:19 -0000 (resending to the list from the correct address; apologies to those who receive multiple copies) -- Karl, My sense of the discussion is that there is in fact consensus on the anycast mechanism as described in the draft, and there has been for quite some time. That is why the draft was submitted for publishing in the first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the WG failed to follow IETF process for reaching consensus. Since we already have rough consensus on the mechanism and we clearly do not have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires changes, I support the chairs' decision to move forward. --Brandon On 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Simon, > > > > There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, > but we have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, > that works for all cases, which no one has disputed as working and that > is technically superior. > > > > Further, it does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and what > is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted > radically different by participating WG individuals. > > > > Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version -10 > (https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html > ) > > > referenced https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9 > , > which says: > > "This version of TURN has been designed to **permit the future > specification of a method** of doing anycast discovery of a TURN server > over UDP. > > > > Previous to my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to > discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the > DISCUSS) (in August, > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html > ) > but that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded responded, > but from an authentication point of view, as if the method meant a > mixture of discovery and usage, which was confusing). > > > > During the DISCUSS, in response to my request to fix, Prashanth only > said: We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a > little better: > > “A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]” > > [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or does “TURN anycast server” > imply that there ALSO is a “TURN unicast server” at the same interface > accepting the Allocate request? > > > > That was never responded to and in your discussion with me: > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html > > > > [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP > addresses that > >> can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether the > >> request was received on its anycast address or its unicast address, > > > > [Simon] Correct. > > > > [Karl]> and I > >> think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we really have > >> TWO TURN servers to play with, > > > > [Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment scenario. > > > > [Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft -10 > >> text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > >> Allocates actually are making allocations. > > > > [Simon] No, that would be wrong. > > > > NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may be > in the author’s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled > out), it is NOT the “TWO LAN IP TURN servers” but *the “**No, that would > be wrong.**”-method that is intended*, see these highlights in the -12 text! > > IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent to > an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network > interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. Using > the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed > in the network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request > to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks 1 > to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766] > . > If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766] > ; > The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > attribute. For *subsequent*communication with *the*TURN server, the > client uses theresponding server's unicast address. This has to be done > because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach two > different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that > the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may > choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast > address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address for > the TURN server. > > I think other participants in the discussion, also interpret the -12 > text as the “that would be wrong”-variant, or even worse, a mixture of > discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come > in(https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > )). > > > > So, current version -12 meaning of text is probably not only “wrong”, > but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can have > no consensus, nor can that be brought into an RFC. > > > > > > In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working anycast > mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases > (which no one has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration “in > Alan Johnston / Avaya style (compare > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2555 > )” > where any party can use the proposed anycast method (for which patent > was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as long > as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us.My IPR > Declaration related to this I-D should appear in day (said when submitting). > > > > /Karl > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' > Ämne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Karl, > > > > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the mechanism > > defined in RFC 5766 remains. > > > > Thanks, > > Simon > > > > Le 2017-02-02 à 18:23, Karl Stahl a écrit : > >> The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws > >> that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding > >> the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided the > >> local or access network administrator, see > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > >> > >> > >> > >> For the latest discussed, see > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > >> > >>>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> > >>> change. > >> > >>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> > >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and > >> (B), and improves (C) and (D). > >> > >> > >> > >> Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > >> > >> The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 during > >> the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus text > >> since version -7. > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > >> > >> STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > Moskalenko > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > >> removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for > >> the author to copy from and paste. > >> > >> > >> > >> Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478 > >> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does not > >> meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > >> TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > >> > >> and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and “Milestone 3: > >> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs” > >> > >> > >> > >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> DISCUSS) changed the text “ 6. Discovery using Anycast “ to: > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > >> > >> “IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > >> > >> sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > >> > >> nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the TURN > >> > >> anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in the > >> > >> network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > >> > >> > >> > >> When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > >> > >> request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > >> > >> performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If all > >> > >> checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > >> > >> Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > >> > >> response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > >> > >> attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the > >> > >> client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to be > >> > >> done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach > >> > >> two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > >> > >> ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > >> > >> implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > >> > >> request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the most > >> > >> optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” > >> > >> > >> > >> The highlighted “A TURN anycast server” isnothing known nor described > >> (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the > >> anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast address, > >> reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as > >> clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > >> > >> > >> > >> The last sentence “An implementation may choose to send out every new > >> TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the closest > >> and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.” violates > >> security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations in > >> attached). > >> > >> > >> > >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> DISCUSS) changed the text “7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ to: > >> > >> > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > >> > >> “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through the > >> > >> mechanisms described in this specification as an enterprise/gateway > >> > >> or access network server, in accordance with Recursively Encapsulated > >> > >> TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].” > >> > >> > >> > >> The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > >> servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN servers > >> discovered by this draft. > >> > >> > >> > >> *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > >> > >> > >> > >> I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now > >> and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict > >> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > >> further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication and > >> especially for WebRTC. > >> > >> > >> > >> /Karl > >> > >> > >> > >> *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at IETF > >> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > >> *Till:* Simon Perreault > >> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; > Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, Simon, > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault >> > wrote: > >> > >> Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > >>> Dear TRAMsters, > >>> > >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >>> > >> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >>> > >>> -Tiru > >>> > >>> > >>> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > >> > >> Thanks for the reminder. > >> > >> If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > >> > >> > >> > >> I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping > >> Terry. > >> > >> > >> > >> It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when > >> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need 10 > >> for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-) > >> > >> > >> > >> Spencer > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >> > > > > > > -- > > Simon Perreault > > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > > https://jive.com > > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Sun Feb 12 08:19:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34113126DFB for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:19:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xl8ezG-VWElK for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com [96.6.114.98]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92969129891 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B6416C68B; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:19:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com [172.27.22.68]) by prod-mail-xrelay06.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2289516C67A; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:19:29 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486916369; bh=l2zsK0TRjhvQVHEO2EEnCOAeAw64G+Znltk07t0tb3I=; l=31954; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=c9kuSX7nqj9hOCBh7KJNJkhzrdP7IVX+ml/hbNczS6UZp6ZiN9uHJGRvSZ5DcdvJ5 LLmJCEu3zQI+sNagr1kxOzQCPmpT447SWTeknB/EJ2wtDkYvOUceoz8zJVdBVzem4d zJrZIKm4uKDKD31g71WeU0UuYfXQYJpTEaIl6ppo= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16731E094; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:19:28 +0000 (GMT) To: Karl Stahl , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" , 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> <048f01d282d3$58c74390$0a55cab0$@stahl@ingate.com> <57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <055101d2833c$299e43c0$7cdacb40$@stahl@ingate.com> <2c2e50c5ab474493b71cf5c68df01c94@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <05b801d283a0$743852e0$5ca8f8a0$@stahl@ingate.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <5f0f91af-c6a0-e93a-04c5-2831ed2c1268@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:19:28 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05b801d283a0$743852e0$5ca8f8a0$@stahl@ingate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:19:32 -0000 Hi Karl, I see that you have continued to provide partial quotes from me to justify your position, which suggests that I was not direct enough in some of my earlier responses. Please let me clarify. I do not agree that you have identified any problems with the -12 draft that need to be addressed, aside from a minor clarification that Tiru has agreed to make. Furthermore, I agree with Tiru and the rest of the authors on the importance of the (D)TLS discussion. The draft updates existing TURN requirements regarding authentication that have a significant impact on the security model, which requires the draft to provide clear guidance about the use of (D)TLS within the new security model. I think that the -12 draft represents a reasonable middle-ground between your position (no mandate) and the position that I share with the authors (mandate in all cases where STUN auth is not used). --Brandon PS: The e-mail is simply a clarification of my position. I'll send a separate note about where I want to add to another part of the discussion. On 02/10/2017 08:20 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Hi Tiru, below again > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 10 februari 2017 05:57 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline [TR2] > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 9 februari 2017 15:34 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Tiru, > > > > Each of your three sentences are incorrect. > > > > And, > >> updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the > network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > > > --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding > (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing “MUST” for (D)TLS usage > under 9: > > ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > and my question how the “explicit administrator choice” is supposed to > happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet café is not answered. > > > > [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the > failure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the > user needs to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). > > [Karl] I suggest “administrator” is then changed to “user” so it is not > interpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft. > > > > [TR2] Sure, I can update draft. > > [Karl2] But please notice, that this only clarifies the draft, it is > still a nuisance for a user and a general webRTC browser (that will be > used under such conditions) and that was not what Brandon or anyone else > asked for. Recommending the STUN dummy authentication instead, resolves > the (D)TLS break of consensus of the version -07 text, including the > performance concerns raised by Pal-Erik and others, as well as other > objections. > > > > - I don’t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities (which > again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its > purpose). > > > > Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any > usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft – that should > specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods > do (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the > DISCOVERY). > > > > [TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN > authentication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STUN authentication > is not mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS. > > [Karl2] Yes, we agree. It is only this draft, version -10 to -12 draft > that suggests to mandate usage of (D)TLS (Please free us from that) > > > > [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot > defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In > addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, > considering that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this > DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain > situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN servers.) > > > > [TR2] I don’t agree with your comments and don’t plan to make any > changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft unless I hear otherwise from > other WG members and chairs. > > > > [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also > suggest you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has > objected against) and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted > to become an RFC. > > > > [TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes including anycast, > don’t see any merit in your arguments > > [Karl2] … and ignoring Brandon’s: > >> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > >> My point is that the small set of people… > > As responded to: > >>> [Karl Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > and will let the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the draft. > > > > [Karl2] Well, we need a specification that is defined and fulfill its > purpose and thus can be made an RFC. > > Can you specify what and explain why any of the red lined suggestions to > the version -12 text would go against this (or is there nothing)? > > (As a guidance to those you ask for “decide how to proceed with the draft.”) > > > > /Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > Thanks, > > Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or > mistakes. > > > > We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but > improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. > > > > /Karl > > > > PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, **since I highlighted in > August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s at the WG list is**: > > October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): > We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: > > “A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];” > > November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru > > November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for > alternate mechanism. -Tiru > > December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don’t understand why the mechanism where > TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won’t > work ? Cheers, -Tiru > > Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below > > > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 8 februari 2017 09:51 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don’t see a > need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only > operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. > > > > Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism > and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. > > > > Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS > is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against > the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments > received from Brandon. > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the > draft -12 text and further referencing: > > [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: > > - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server > reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or > really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). > > > > 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method > in the –12 draft (compare the redlined version) > > It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication > Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the > A)+B) method is in conflict with. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html > > and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > . > > > > > > > 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and > described in some future revision, then remains (from > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > ): > > “(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why we > > need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These > > points are: > > > > (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server" > > (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" for > > being discoverable by a certain method) > > > > (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is > > setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - not > > requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And > > more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at least > > one discovery method that works for ALL network types and configurations, > > where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast > > using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address fulfilling > > this.) > > > > (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. > > > > (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. > > > > Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and > > improves (C) and (D).” > > > > 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > and > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as > with the red lined anycast method). > > > > /Karl > > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > Ämne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > >> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >> >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > >> > > >> Cc: tram@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> Tiru, > >> > >> That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > >> the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question as I > >> asked Simon before (and only he answered): > > > > I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below > questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below > questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations > (and have no impact on the actual protocol). > > > > -Tiru > > > >> > >> Does the draft assume: > >> > >> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > >> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by > >> whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > >> address, OR > >> > >> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > >> address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > >> > >> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > >> Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > >> > >> > >> We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. > >> > >> /Karl > >> > >> > >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > >> Från: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > >> Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > >> Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > >> Kopia: tram@ietf.org > >> Ämne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > >> > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > >> > To: Karl Stahl >; 'Spencer Dawkins > at IETF' > >> > > > >> > Cc: tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > > >> > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > >> Action: > >> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > >> > Karl, > >> > > >> > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > >> > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > >> > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > >> > >> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar > >> mechanism. > >> I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Simon > >> > > >> > Le 2017-02-02 à 18:23, Karl Stahl a écrit : > >> > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > >> > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > >> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > >> > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > For the latest discussed, see > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > >> > > > >> > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> > > > >> > >> change. > >> > > > >> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> > > > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> > > > >> > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > >> > >> and > >> > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > >> change. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > >> > > > >> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > >> > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > >> > > consensus text since version -7. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > >> > > > >> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > >> > > Moskalenko > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > >> > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > >> > > for the author to copy from and paste. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > >> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > >> > > and does > >> > not > >> > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > >> > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > >> > > > >> > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > >> > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > >> > > > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > >> > > > >> > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > >> > > > >> > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > >> > > TURN > >> > > > >> > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > >> > > > >> > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > >> > > > >> > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > >> > > all > >> > > > >> > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > >> > > > >> > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > >> > > > >> > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > >> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > >> > > > >> > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > >> > > be > >> > > > >> > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > >> > > reach > >> > > > >> > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > >> > > > >> > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > >> > > > >> > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > >> > > > >> > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > >> > > most > >> > > > >> > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > >> > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > >> > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > >> > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > >> > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > >> > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > >> > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > >> > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > >> > > considerations in attached). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > >> > > > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > >> > the > >> > > > >> > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > >> > > enterprise/gateway > >> > > > >> > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > >> > > Encapsulated > >> > > > >> > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > >> > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > >> > > servers discovered by this draft. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > >> > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > >> > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > >> > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > >> > > and especially for WebRTC. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > /Karl > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at > >> > > IETF > >> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > >> > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > >> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; > Tirumaleswar Reddy > >> > > (tireddy) > >> > > *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > >> > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi, Simon, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > >> > >> Dear TRAMsters, > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >> > >> > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for the reminder. > >> > > > >> > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > >> > > ping Terry. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > >> > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > >> > > you need > >> > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > >> > > March > >> > > ;-) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Spencer > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > tram mailing list > >> > > tram@ietf.org > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Simon Perreault > >> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > >> > https://jive.com > > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Sun Feb 12 08:24:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D4112986D for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:24:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dxqiW3uJIEIw for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com [96.6.114.112]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD92A129878 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 08:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF1620000C; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com [172.27.22.68]) by prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5C2200009; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:24:42 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1486916682; bh=dqd3UHeXJF0C+7cfn5Ngbby2WZaZQDZiwvf+VYTzFAc=; l=31382; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CAjQhMvtC/QXNCSM/52caOpZKdMZHNap3gOVrIPbiIsayKfKAbEg1A2hxSAVCQinf C6ZrSeTOCAoKuSed161FD98nQaYG3SLfJocoS057goXLOfSLErAzIn+ohb+42da6hM 2yakicQlbOehycxfgFH93dTyHvJTwtNxnsgowpOg= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4BA1E094; Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:24:41 +0000 (GMT) To: Karl Stahl , "'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'" , 'Simon Perreault' , 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' References: <148427986357.3020.7793783112924549744.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5893bf99.0699370a.55c1f.0964SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <4547122c1f244f4db631dfda97404561@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <028401d2812d$6b02c220$41084660$@stahl@ingate.com> <70420ebfeccb4c0086f946628cdc4daf@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <03aa01d281d8$b4d5df80$1e819e80$@stahl@ingate.com> <048f01d282d3$58c74390$0a55cab0$@stahl@ingate.com> <57e18bb6f5394f61b5c7200d521dd3b2@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <055101d2833c$299e43c0$7cdacb40$@stahl@ingate.com> <2c2e50c5ab474493b71cf5c68df01c94@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <05b801d283a0$743852e0$5ca8f8a0$@stahl@ingate.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <2909fdfc-cc13-c6bb-c26d-1f5262774847@akamai.com> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:24:41 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <05b801d283a0$743852e0$5ca8f8a0$@stahl@ingate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 16:24:46 -0000 Hi Karl, Regarding the "explicit administrator choice" part of the text, I think the point is not that an application MUST NOT blindly fall back to cleartext, but instead MUST give the admin and/or user some control. There are a variety of ways this could be accomplished. Tiru's suggestion in the earlier e-mail is just one of those. I don't think the draft needs to describe a specific method; it's up to the application developer to choose a method that best meets user needs. --Brandon On 02/10/2017 08:20 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Hi Tiru, below again > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 10 februari 2017 05:57 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline [TR2] > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 9 februari 2017 15:34 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Tiru, > > > > Each of your three sentences are incorrect. > > > > And, > >> updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if the > network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > > > --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding > (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing “MUST” for (D)TLS usage > under 9: > > ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > and my question how the “explicit administrator choice” is supposed to > happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet café is not answered. > > > > [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about the > failure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. the > user needs to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). > > [Karl] I suggest “administrator” is then changed to “user” so it is not > interpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the draft. > > > > [TR2] Sure, I can update draft. > > [Karl2] But please notice, that this only clarifies the draft, it is > still a nuisance for a user and a general webRTC browser (that will be > used under such conditions) and that was not what Brandon or anyone else > asked for. Recommending the STUN dummy authentication instead, resolves > the (D)TLS break of consensus of the version -07 text, including the > performance concerns raised by Pal-Erik and others, as well as other > objections. > > > > - I don’t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities (which > again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its > purpose). > > > > Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for any > usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft – that should > specify DISCOVERY – cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery methods > do (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the > DISCOVERY). > > > > [TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN > authentication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STUN authentication > is not mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS. > > [Karl2] Yes, we agree. It is only this draft, version -10 to -12 draft > that suggests to mandate usage of (D)TLS (Please free us from that) > > > > [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot > defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains (In > addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, > considering that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this > DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a certain > situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN servers.) > > > > [TR2] I don’t agree with your comments and don’t plan to make any > changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft unless I hear otherwise from > other WG members and chairs. > > > > [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also > suggest you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has > objected against) and I think we will have a draft that can be accepted > to become an RFC. > > > > [TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes including anycast, > don’t see any merit in your arguments > > [Karl2] … and ignoring Brandon’s: > >> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > >> My point is that the small set of people… > > As responded to: > >>> [Karl Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > and will let the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the draft. > > > > [Karl2] Well, we need a specification that is defined and fulfill its > purpose and thus can be made an RFC. > > Can you specify what and explain why any of the red lined suggestions to > the version -12 text would go against this (or is there nothing)? > > (As a guidance to those you ask for “decide how to proceed with the draft.”) > > > > /Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > Thanks, > > Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or > mistakes. > > > > We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but > improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. > > > > /Karl > > > > PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, **since I highlighted in > August 8, 2016, all from the Author’s at the WG list is**: > > October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): > We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: > > “A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];” > > November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru > > November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need for > alternate mechanism. -Tiru > > December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don’t understand why the mechanism where > TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction won’t > work ? Cheers, -Tiru > > Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below > > > > > > *Från:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 8 februari 2017 09:51 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *Ämne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don’t see a > need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only > operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. > > > > Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism > and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. > > > > Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS > is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend against > the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments > received from Brandon. > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in the > draft -12 text and further referencing: > > [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: > > - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server > reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or > really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). > > > > 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) method > in the –12 draft (compare the redlined version) > > It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication > Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the > A)+B) method is in conflict with. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html > > and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > . > > > > > > > 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined and > described in some future revision, then remains (from > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > ): > > “(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why we > > need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. These > > points are: > > > > (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server" > > (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers "invented" for > > being discoverable by a certain method) > > > > (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is > > setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - not > > requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And > > more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at least > > one discovery method that works for ALL network types and configurations, > > where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only anycast > > using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address fulfilling > > this.) > > > > (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. > > > > (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. > > > > Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), and > > improves (C) and (D).” > > > > 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > and > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just as > with the red lined anycast method). > > > > /Karl > > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Från: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > Ämne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > >> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >> >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > >> > > >> Cc: tram@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> Tiru, > >> > >> That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer about what > >> the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same question as I > >> asked Simon before (and only he answered): > > > > I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below > questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below > questions in the draft because they are only operational considerations > (and have no impact on the actual protocol). > > > > -Tiru > > > >> > >> Does the draft assume: > >> > >> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at different > >> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by > >> whether the request was received on its anycast address or its unicast > >> address, OR > >> > >> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the anycast > >> address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > >> > >> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > >> Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > >> > >> > >> We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method specified. > >> > >> /Karl > >> > >> > >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > >> Från: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > >> Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > >> Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > >> Kopia: tram@ietf.org > >> Ämne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > >> > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > >> > To: Karl Stahl >; 'Spencer Dawkins > at IETF' > >> > > > >> > Cc: tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > > > >> > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > >> Action: > >> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > >> > Karl, > >> > > >> > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > >> > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > >> > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > >> > >> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar > >> mechanism. > >> I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Simon > >> > > >> > Le 2017-02-02 à 18:23, Karl Stahl a écrit : > >> > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > >> > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest > >> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > >> > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > For the latest discussed, see > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > >> > > > >> > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a > >> > > > >> > >> change. > >> > > > >> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> > > > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> > > > >> > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) > >> > >> and > >> > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the > >> change. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > >> > > > >> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > >> > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > >> > > consensus text since version -7. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > >> > > > >> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > >> > > Moskalenko > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, > >> > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > >> > > for the author to copy from and paste. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > >> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > >> > > and does > >> > not > >> > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated > >> > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > >> > > > >> > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone 3: > >> > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > >> > > > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet > >> > > > >> > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > >> > > > >> > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the > >> > > TURN > >> > > > >> > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > >> > > > >> > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server > >> > > > >> > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If > >> > > all > >> > > > >> > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try > >> > > > >> > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > >> > > > >> > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > >> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > >> > > > >> > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to > >> > > be > >> > > > >> > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > >> > > reach > >> > > > >> > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to > >> > > > >> > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > >> > > > >> > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation > >> > > > >> > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > >> > > most > >> > > > >> > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > >> > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > >> > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed at > >> > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation request) > >> > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out every > >> > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the > >> > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > >> > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > >> > > considerations in attached). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " to: > >> > > > >> > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > >> > the > >> > > > >> > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > >> > > enterprise/gateway > >> > > > >> > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > >> > > Encapsulated > >> > > > >> > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN > >> > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > >> > > servers discovered by this draft. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into > >> > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > >> > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > >> > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication > >> > > and especially for WebRTC. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > /Karl > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Från:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *För *Spencer Dawkins at > >> > > IETF > >> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > >> > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > >> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org ; > Tirumaleswar Reddy > >> > > (tireddy) > >> > > *Ämne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > >> > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi, Simon, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Le 2017-02-01 à 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a écrit : > >> > >> Dear TRAMsters, > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >> > >> > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for the reminder. > >> > > > >> > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > >> > > ping Terry. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > >> > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > >> > > you need > >> > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > >> > > March > >> > > ;-) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Spencer > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > tram mailing list > >> > > tram@ietf.org > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Simon Perreault > >> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > >> > https://jive.com > > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:53:08 -0000 Regarding (D)TLS:=20 Brandon, the "explicit administrator choice" text in version -12 is the = only thing I have attributed to you as "I don=92t think Brandon or anyone = asked for such impossibilities" and I think what you say below is just that. Let's = not make too much about that. The real things about the STUN Authentication (in addition to = introducing this (D)TLS "impossibility use case" ) are: 1) (D)TLS mandate was thrown in during the DISCUSS and broke the -07 = text consensus, where STUN Authentication was not required for network = provided TURN servers in the local or access network (no (D)TLS was suggested - = that is for validation, not for authentication)=20 2) The STUN Authentication downgrade was (correctly) declared first = during discuss (although it happened with version -07), and the "IP = Authentication" (that automatically the users belonging to the local or access network = have, was (correctly) spelled out during the discuss as "A TURN server in such cases must be configured to only process STUN requests from the trusted local network or subscribers of the access network. Operational measures must be taken in order protect the TURN server; some of these measures include, but not limited to, access control by means of access-lists, firewalls, subscriber quota limits, ingress filtering etc." =20 3) The (D)TLS mandate thrown in during the discuss does other things = than compensate for the STUN Authentication, and was later (by Authors) = reduced to fixing vulnerability for spoofing (-12 text), and the -12 text's mandating (D)TLS in some situations. 4) However, for eliminating the spoofing vulnerability, introduced = (D)TLS is still not good (CPU hunger, thus DOD/DDOS vulnerable, trust anchor or certificate seldom available), while Oleg's Dummy Authentication does = the job and has none of the drawbacks.=20 This is introduced in the red-lined version -12 and is a way bring back consensus if agreed upon. /Karl -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Brandon Williams [mailto:brandon.williams@akamai.com]=20 Skickat: den 12 februari 2017 17:25 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' Kopia: tram@ietf.org =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt Hi Karl, Regarding the "explicit administrator choice" part of the text, I think=20 the point is not that an application MUST NOT blindly fall back to=20 cleartext, but instead MUST give the admin and/or user some control.=20 There are a variety of ways this could be accomplished. Tiru's=20 suggestion in the earlier e-mail is just one of those. I don't think the = draft needs to describe a specific method; it's up to the application=20 developer to choose a method that best meets user needs. --Brandon On 02/10/2017 08:20 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Hi Tiru, below again > > > > *Fr=E5n:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 10 februari 2017 05:57 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *=C4mne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline [TR2] > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Friday, February 10, 2017 6:53 AM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Tiru, please see [Karl] inlines after your inlines. > > > > *Fr=E5n:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 9 februari 2017 15:34 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *=C4mne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > Please see inline > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 9, 2017 6:22 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Tiru, > > > > Each of your three sentences are incorrect. > > > > And, > >> updated in 12 version to say that (D)TLS is not mandatory to use if = the > network infrastructure can defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > > > --- And in addition It breaks the version -07 consensus text regarding > (D)TLS usage in this situation, by introducing =93MUST=94 for (D)TLS = usage > under 9: > > ...and therefore MUST NOT be used for privacy sensitive communication. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > ...but MUST NOT fall back without explicit administrator choice. > > and my question how the =93explicit administrator choice=94 is = supposed to > happen in an enterprise environment or at an internet caf=E9 is not answered. > > > > [TR] Explicit administrator choice means the user is notified about = the > failure and fallback happens only after consent from the user (i.e. = the > user needs to know that fallback happens to a less secure mechanism). > > [Karl] I suggest =93administrator=94 is then changed to =93user=94 so = it is not > interpreted as the network administrator, in a version -13 of the = draft. > > > > [TR2] Sure, I can update draft. > > [Karl2] But please notice, that this only clarifies the draft, it is > still a nuisance for a user and a general webRTC browser (that will be > used under such conditions) and that was not what Brandon or anyone = else > asked for. Recommending the STUN dummy authentication instead, = resolves > the (D)TLS break of consensus of the version -07 text, including the > performance concerns raised by Pal-Erik and others, as well as other > objections. > > > > - I don=92t think Brandon or anyone asked for such impossibilities = (which > again seem to be created to make this specification unusable for its > purpose). > > > > Please note that to my knowledge, (D)TLS usage is not mandated for = any > usage of TURN servers anywhere, and (again) this draft =96 that should > specify DISCOVERY =96 cannot MANDATE USAGE. None of the discovery = methods > do (and cannot) use (D)TLS (that discussion is for USAGE, AFTER the > DISCOVERY). > > > > [TR2] Other drafts do not mandate (D)TLS because RFC5766 mandates STUN > authentication, this draft updates RFC5766 by saying STUN = authentication > is not mandatory hence it is mandating (D)TLS. > > [Karl2] Yes, we agree. It is only this draft, version -10 to -12 draft > that suggests to mandate usage of (D)TLS (Please free us from that) > > > > [TR] No, (D)TLS is only mandated if the network infrastructure cannot > defend against the attacks discussed in RFC5766. > > [Karl] That is already clear in the -12 version. My comment remains = (In > addition to being wrong, I meant it is also strange (and unnecessary, > considering that dummy authentication can achieve it better) if this > DISCOVERY draft would mandates (D)TLS for TURN server usage in a = certain > situation, when no other draft mandates (D)TLS for usage of TURN = servers.) > > > > [TR2] I don=92t agree with your comments and don=92t plan to make any > changes to (D)TLS related text in the draft unless I hear otherwise = from > other WG members and chairs. > > > > [Karl] While producing the above suggested -13 of the draft, I also > suggest you also include all the redlining I proposed (and no one has > objected against) and I think we will have a draft that can be = accepted > to become an RFC. > > > > [TR2] I reject your all your other proposed changes including anycast, > don=92t see any merit in your arguments > > [Karl2] =85 and ignoring Brandon=92s: > >> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. > >> My point is that the small set of people=85 > > As responded to: > >>> [Karl Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > > >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and (B), and improves (C) and (D). > > > > and will let the WG chairs decide how to proceed with the draft. > > > > [Karl2] Well, we need a specification that is defined and fulfill its > purpose and thus can be made an RFC. > > Can you specify what and explain why any of the red lined suggestions = to > the version -12 text would go against this (or is there nothing)? > > (As a guidance to those you ask for =93decide how to proceed with the draft.=94) > > > > /Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > Thanks, > > Karl > > > > -Tiru > > > > The read lined -12 version is cleared from these and other flaws or > mistakes. > > > > We should focus on whether the red lined version is anything but > improvements and adds no drawbacks over version -12 of the draft. > > > > /Karl > > > > PS: Regarding the non working anycast method, **since I highlighted in > August 8, 2016, all from the Author=92s at the WG list is**: > > October 18, 2016 (from Prashanth to me and others during the discuss): > We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a little better: > > =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766];=94 > > November 15, 2016 (to something from Brandon): Agreed. -Tiru > > November 18, 2016 (to something from Brandon): +1, don't see a need = for > alternate mechanism. -Tiru > > December 22, 2016 Hi Karl, I don=92t understand why the mechanism = where > TURN server has both anycast and unicast address for re-direction = won=92t > work ? Cheers, -Tiru > > Now February 7, 8, 2016 See below > > > > > > *Fr=E5n:*Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > *Skickat:* den 8 februari 2017 09:51 > *Till:* Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org > *=C4mne:* RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > Hi Karl, > > > > We have gone over the same points over and over again and I don=92t = see a > need to document the discussion b/w you and Simon, they are only > operational considerations and have no impact on the protocol. > > > > Secondly, there is no consensus on your proposed new anycast mechanism > and WG members have opposed your new anycast mechanism. > > > > Regarding (D)TLS, the draft is updated in 12 version to say that = (D)TLS > is not mandatory to use if the network infrastructure can defend = against > the attacks discussed in RFC5766. This update addresses comments > received from Brandon. > > > > -Tiru > > > > *From:*Karl Stahl [mailto:karl.stahl@ingate.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 8, 2017 12:28 PM > *To:* Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' >; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > > > *Cc:* tram@ietf.org > *Subject:* SV: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > > 1) The A)+B) method (that Simon and I discussed) is not specified in = the > draft -12 text and further referencing: > > [Tiru below]> "https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar mechanism" does not help: > > - It rather states issues coming from not knowing whether a server > reached by anycast addressing, actually is at a unicast address or > really is deployed at a anycast address (which I believe is rare). > > > > 2) Further, there are no deployment considerations for the A)+B) = method > in the =9612 draft (compare the redlined version) > > It does not even discuss or list RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication > Use Cases and Requirements) that it is supposed to meet, but which the > A)+B) method is in conflict with. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02314.html > > and https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > . > > > > > > > 3) And if the (more complex) A)+B) method would be properly defined = and > described in some future revision, then remains (from > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > ): > > =93(trying to) exemplify/clarify the high level (important) points why = we > > need/want anycast discovery by saying Binding instead of Allocate. = These > > points are: > > > > (A) We need an anycast discovery method for auto-discovering "a TURN server" > > (not some special TURN server or arrangement of TURN servers = "invented" for > > being discoverable by a certain method) > > > > (B) We need an anycast discovery method for a TURN server that is > > setup/installed/configured for its USAGE (which is relaying traffic) - = not > > requiring a special network configuration just for being discoverable. (And > > more widely, it must be the goal of this specification to provide at = least > > one discovery method that works for ALL network types and = configurations, > > where a network provided TURN server may be useful - I see only = anycast > > using Binding for querying *the TURN server's* unicast address = fulfilling > > this.) > > > > (C) Robust (tolerant) deployment is highly preferable. > > > > (D) Ease of deployment is highly preferable. > > > > Saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) and (B), = and > > improves (C) and (D).=94 > > > > 4) The (D)TLS text in version -12 does not have consensus either. > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > and > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > > > Against my red lined (D)TLS changes, I have heard no objections (just = as > with the red lined anycast method). > > > > /Karl > > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 12:02 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org > =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Karl Stahl > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:02 PM > >> To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >; 'Simon Perreault' > >> >; 'Spencer Dawkins = at IETF' > >> > > >> Cc: tram@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> Tiru, > >> > >> That does not make the version -12 text in the draft any clearer = about what > >> the draft's anycast method actually is. I am asking you the same = question as I > >> asked Simon before (and only he answered): > > > > I agree with the responses Simon has already provided to all the below > questions. Further, I also don't see the need to discuss the below > questions in the draft because they are only operational = considerations > (and have no impact on the actual protocol). > > > > -Tiru > > > >> > >> Does the draft assume: > >> > >> (A) a TURN server listening to TWO IP addresses (that are at = different > >> subnets) that can respond error 300 or make an allocation, = distinguished by > >> whether the request was received on its anycast address or its = unicast > >> address, OR > >> > >> (B) we really have TWO TURN servers to play with (the one at the = anycast > >> address being configured to respond with the error 300, OR > >> > >> (C) the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT > >> Allocates actually are making TURN allocations. > >> > >> > >> We cannot have an RFC, not even being clear about the method = specified. > >> > >> /Karl > >> > >> > >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > >> Fr=E5n: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) [mailto:tireddy@cisco.com] > >> Skickat: den 7 februari 2017 07:18 > >> Till: Simon Perreault; Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > >> Kopia: tram@ietf.org > >> =C4mne: RE: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: > >> draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Simon Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > >> > Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 7:13 PM > >> > To: Karl Stahl >; 'Spencer Dawkins > at IETF' > >> > > > >> > Cc: tram@ietf.org ; Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy) > > > >> > Subject: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: = I-D > >> Action: > >> > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > >> > Karl, > >> > > >> > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast > >> > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the > >> > mechanism defined in RFC 5766 remains. > >> > >> Yup, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 > > also discusses similar > >> mechanism. > >> I don't see the need for a new anycast mechanism. > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Simon > >> > > >> > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : > >> > > The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of > >> > > flaws that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the = latest > >> > > regarding the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn > >> > > servers provided the local or access network administrator, see > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > For the latest discussed, see > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > > >> > > > >> > >>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for = such a > >> > > > >> > >> change. > >> > > > >> > >> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of > >> > > > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > > >> > > > >> > >> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve = (A) > >> > >> and > >> > > (B), and improves (C) and (D). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for = the > >> change. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > > >> > > > >> > > The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 > >> > > during the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the > >> > > consensus text since version -7. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > > >> > > > >> > > STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > >> > > Moskalenko > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) = redlining, > >> > > removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, > >> > > for the author to copy from and paste. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with > >> > > RFC7478 (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) > >> > > and does > >> > not > >> > > meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated > >> > > TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) > >> > > > >> > > and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and "Milestone = 3: > >> > > TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs" > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text " 6. Discovery using Anycast " to: > >> > > > >> > > = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A = packet > >> > > > >> > > sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically > >> > > > >> > > nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using = the > >> > > TURN > >> > > > >> > > anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed = in > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate > >> > > > >> > > request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast = server > >> > > > >> > > performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. = If > >> > > all > >> > > > >> > > checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > >> > > > >> > > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The > >> > > > >> > > response contains the TURN unicast address in the > >> > > ALTERNATE-SERVER > >> > > > >> > > attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, > >> > > the > >> > > > >> > > client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has = to > >> > > be > >> > > > >> > > done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may > >> > > reach > >> > > > >> > > two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs = to > >> > > > >> > > ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An > >> > > > >> > > implementation may choose to send out every new TURN = Allocation > >> > > > >> > > request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the > >> > > most > >> > > > >> > > optimal unicast address for the TURN server." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The highlighted "A TURN anycast server" isnothing known nor > >> > > described (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one > >> > > deployed at the anycast address and another TURN server deployed = at > >> > > the unicast address, reacting differently to the Allocation = request) > >> > > for this to work as clarified in WG discussions with Simon). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The last sentence "An implementation may choose to send out = every > >> > > new TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover = the > >> > > closest and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN = server." > >> > > violates security and deployment considerations (see red lined > >> > > considerations in attached). > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before > >> > > DISCUSS) changed the text "7.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN " = to: > >> > > > >> > > = https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-disc > > >> > > ov ery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > "WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through > >> > the > >> > > > >> > > mechanisms described in this specification as an > >> > > enterprise/gateway > >> > > > >> > > or access network server, in accordance with Recursively > >> > > Encapsulated > >> > > > >> > > TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return]." > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN > >> > > servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN > >> > > servers discovered by this draft. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed = into > >> > > now and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the > >> > > "Conflict Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in > >> > > > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > , > >> > > further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time = communication > >> > > and especially for WebRTC. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > /Karl > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer = Dawkins at > >> > > IETF > >> > > *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 > >> > > *Till:* Simon Perreault > >> > > *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org = ; > Tirumaleswar Reddy > >> > > (tireddy) > >> > > *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > >> > > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi, Simon, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault = >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : > >> > >> Dear TRAMsters, > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. > >> > >> > >> > >> -Tiru > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS? > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for the reminder. > >> > > > >> > > If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're ready. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to > >> > > ping Terry. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away > >> > > when ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and > >> > > you need > >> > > 10 for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in > >> > > March > >> > > ;-) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Spencer > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > tram mailing list > >> > > tram@ietf.org > >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Simon Perreault > >> > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. > >> > https://jive.com > > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > --=20 Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 19:53:28 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0756_01D2863B.2E3F52A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regarding Anycast: =20 Brandon, previous email > I haven't read the redlined version=20 --- The anycast related redlining of version -12 is the same as I did in version -10 that you read and discussed/commented with one thing that I addressed. Let's not make too much of that, since there is no common understanding of what the Author's anycast method actually is.=20 =20 =20 Reality is:=20 - Tiru says he agrees with other (Simon, but that discussion was based around the "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method assumption) but Tiru gave = a pointer in another direction. - Prashpanth extra text during discuss (in version -12 now) rather = points at another interpretation, using only one TURN server, that answers differently, depending on when accessed. - And Brandon seems to point to Tiru - Dissident me highlighted the flaws already in version -08 (when = reading the =93not all TURN servers may support anycast.=94 statement) but = Author's did not respond =20 Checking History: =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-00=20 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request to the assigned anycast address. The responding TURN anycast server puts its own unicast address as the source address in the reply message. For subsequent =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01=20 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request to the assigned anycast address. The TURN anycast server responds with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]; The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE- SERVER attribute. For subsequent =20 The =93not all TURN servers may support anycast.=94 statement appeared = later in=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-02=20 =20 Nothing of this indicates that the Authors mean the "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method Simon and I discussed and the continued silence from = the Author=92s just confirms that -12 lacks an anycast specification that = can be implemented and used. Further, version -12 lacks deployment = considerations. =20 The red-lined version -12 defines the =93say Binding instead of = Allocate=94 anycast method (working with one TURN server and in all situations), it includes deployment considerations, and is a way to get consensus of something defined. =20 /Karl =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Brandon Williams [mailto:brandon.williams@akamai.com]=20 Skickat: den 12 februari 2017 17:13 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org Kopia: 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 (resending to the list from the correct address; apologies to those who=20 receive multiple copies) =20 -- =20 Karl, =20 My sense of the discussion is that there is in fact consensus on the=20 anycast mechanism as described in the draft, and there has been for=20 quite some time. That is why the draft was submitted for publishing in=20 the first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the WG failed to=20 follow IETF process for reaching consensus. =20 Since we already have rough consensus on the mechanism and we clearly do = not have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires changes, I=20 support the chairs' decision to move forward. =20 --Brandon =20 On 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Simon, >=20 >=20 >=20 > There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, > but we have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, > that works for all cases, which no one has disputed as working and = that > is technically superior. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Further, it does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and = what > is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted > radically different by participating WG individuals. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version -10 > ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02219.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D9Vinivwpl57Ies6e-yU0dUlpAl4fU82P3tUUttRw6To&e=3D>) >=20 >=20 > referenced https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9 > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_rfc 5766-23section-2D2.9&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWm= cGKRIuadq 6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&= s=3D7l8 YhEhODU-mAOOge_PGkmBRe3izR5ccHjCt00fIMKg&e=3D>, > which says: >=20 > "This version of TURN has been designed to **permit the future > specification of a method** of doing anycast discovery of a TURN = server > over UDP. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Previous to my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to > discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the > DISCUSS) (in August, > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02081.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DKy60LXSnuUbd3V9g_U7OQeygIMsDBSIhzoR3CJnhudc&e=3D>) > but that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded responded, > but from an authentication point of view, as if the method meant a > mixture of discovery and usage, which was confusing). >=20 >=20 >=20 > During the DISCUSS, in response to my request to fix, Prashanth only > said: We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a > little better: >=20 > =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]=94 >=20 > [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or does =93TURN anycast = server=94 > imply that there ALSO is a =93TURN unicast server=94 at the same = interface > accepting the Allocate request? >=20 >=20 >=20 > That was never responded to and in your discussion with me: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02239.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DlF-ED0y_3a0PpIV86fSvOqTSZ35xA0rHRPSWIT_zg40&e=3D> >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP > addresses that >=20 >> can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether = the >=20 >> request was received on its anycast address or its unicast address, >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] Correct. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> and I >=20 >> think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we really = have >=20 >> TWO TURN servers to play with, >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment scenario. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft -10 >=20 >> text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT >=20 >> Allocates actually are making allocations. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] No, that would be wrong. >=20 >=20 >=20 > NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may = be > in the author=92s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled > out), it is NOT the =93TWO LAN IP TURN servers=94 but *the =93**No, = that would > be wrong.**=94-method that is intended*, see these highlights in the = -12 text! >=20 > IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent = to > an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network > interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. = Using > the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed > in the network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. >=20 > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request > to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks = 1 > to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766] > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_= draft -2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw= &c=3D96 ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3D= LlHl6jk 02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbPXBtnWym-ieDQli= iEuKw ilZ8-w&e=3D>. > If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766] > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_= draft -2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw= &c=3D96 ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3D= LlHl6jk 02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbPXBtnWym-ieDQli= iEuKw ilZ8-w&e=3D>; > The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > attribute. For *subsequent*communication with *the*TURN server, the > client uses theresponding server's unicast address. This has to be = done > because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach two > different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that > the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may > choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast > address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address = for > the TURN server. >=20 > I think other participants in the discussion, also interpret the -12 > text as the =93that would be wrong=94-variant, or even worse, a = mixture of > discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come > in( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&e=3D> > )). >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, current version -12 meaning of text is probably not only = =93wrong=94, > but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can = have > no consensus, nor can that be brought into an RFC. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working = anycast > mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases > (which no one has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration =93in > Alan Johnston / Avaya style (compare > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2555 > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o= rg_ip r_2555&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSn= sgwbBVUJa 4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-3GAqbhshj= LGlqn1r JTvvZYBX8hUMnoE9klSH8jcetE&e=3D>)=94 > where any party can use the proposed anycast method (for which patent > was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as = long > as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us.My IPR > Declaration related to this I-D should appear in day (said when submitting). >=20 >=20 >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' > =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Karl, >=20 >=20 >=20 > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast >=20 > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the = mechanism >=20 > defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Simon >=20 >=20 >=20 > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : >=20 >> The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws >=20 >> that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest = regarding >=20 >> the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided = the >=20 >> local or access network administrator, see >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02216.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbBFj_GASKSsY_HNdIBjjv0y8sjPtr6zzgj4BQ3oMrdU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> For the latest discussed, see >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02279.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DJ8IfAGYsotvUD3BZ34GaL2PMdA8VgM4YrjsBZYsWTJU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> change. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02254.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D88hP4v4Z4-R6Uabxb4H3ZiBhM0Qd5RJVPrV20Xqhdrk&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and >=20 >> (B), and improves (C) and (D). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02296.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D3RTX5rmvnTz6_hFMiKyI82eEcI3D2Wq3NRGBGG-g7HQ&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 = during >=20 >> the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus = text >=20 >> since version -7. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > Moskalenko >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, >=20 >> removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for >=20 >> the author to copy from and paste. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with = RFC7478 >=20 >> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does = not >=20 >> meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated >=20 >> TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and =93Milestone = 3: >=20 >> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before >=20 >> DISCUSS) changed the text =93 6. Discovery using Anycast =93 to: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfc= diff- 3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-= 3Dd raft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96= ZbZZcaM F4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk= 02cblMw TNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgSTI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZ= LpgA& e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> =93IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the = TURN >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If = all >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to = be >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the = most >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The highlighted =93A TURN anycast server=94 isnothing known nor = described >=20 >> (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the >=20 >> anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast = address, >=20 >> reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as >=20 >> clarified in WG discussions with Simon). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The last sentence =93An implementation may choose to send out every = new >=20 >> TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the = closest >=20 >> and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 violates >=20 >> security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations = in >=20 >> attached). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before >=20 >> DISCUSS) changed the text =937.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN =93 = to: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfc= diff- 3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-= 3Dd raft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96= ZbZZcaM F4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk= 02cblMw TNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgSTI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZ= LpgA& e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> =93WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> mechanisms described in this specification as an = enterprise/gateway >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> or access network server, in accordance with Recursively = Encapsulated >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN >=20 >> servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN = servers >=20 >> discovered by this draft. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into = now >=20 >> and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict >=20 >> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02202.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DxJqnJA5Recy-zn0mjGAwmioTMfhnHGcUQiW8HvTcUAY&e=3D>, >=20 >> further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication = and >=20 >> especially for WebRTC. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> /Karl >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF >=20 >> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 >=20 >> *Till:* Simon Perreault >=20 >> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < = mailto:tram@ietf.org> < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; > Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >=20 >> *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Hi, Simon, >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault =20 >> < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : >=20 >>> Dear TRAMsters, >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >=20 >>> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com%20%3cmailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>=20 >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> -Tiru >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS? >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Thanks for the reminder. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping >=20 >> Terry. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when >=20 >> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need = 10 >=20 >> for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March = ;-) >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Spencer >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >=20 >> tram mailing list >=20 >> tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org> >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_li stinfo_tram&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq= 6-NSnsgwb BVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbfMg0= C2AcGnc ycaAxmFKGxYyCDivv_QxmIJUrJgAIHA&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Simon Perreault >=20 > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. >=20 > https://jive.com > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__jive.com&d=3DDwMFA= w&c=3D96Z bZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk0 2cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-0naNOVsq-b3TnBmNWKQhhf-TF_BR_JdB= -AIEp 4Azag&e=3D> > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com> >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 =20 --=20 Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. =20 --=20 Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. ------=_NextPart_000_0756_01D2863B.2E3F52A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding Anycast:

 

Brandon, previous email > I haven't read the redlined = version

--- The anycast related redlining of version -12 is the = same as I did in version -10 that you read and discussed/commented with = one thing that I addressed. Let's not make too much of that, since there = is no common understanding of what the Author's anycast method actually = is.

 

 

Reality is:

- Tiru says he agrees with other = (Simon, but that discussion was based around the "Two LAN IP TURN = server(s)" method assumption) but Tiru gave a pointer in another = direction.

- Prashpanth extra text during discuss (in version -12 now) = rather points at another interpretation, using only one TURN server, = that answers differently, depending on when = accessed.

- And Brandon seems to point to = Tiru

- = Dissident me highlighted the flaws already in version -08 (when reading = the “not all TURN servers may support = anycast.” statement) but Author's did = not respond

 

Checking History:

 

h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-00 =

When a = client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

=A0=A0 request to the assigned anycast address.=A0 The responding TURN = anycast

=A0=A0 = server puts its own unicast address as the source address in = the

=A0=A0 reply = message.=A0 For = subsequent

 

h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01 =

When a = client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

=A0=A0 request to the assigned anycast address.=A0 The TURN anycast = server

=A0=A0 = responds with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in = [RFC5766];

=A0=A0 The = response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-

=A0=A0 = SERVER attribute.=A0 For = subsequent

 

The “not all TURN servers may = support anycast.” statement appeared = later in

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-02=

 

Nothing of this indicates that the Authors mean the = "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method Simon and I discussed and = the continued silence from the Author’s just confirms that -12 = lacks an anycast specification that can be implemented and used. = Further, version -12 lacks deployment = considerations.

 

The red-lined version -12 defines the “say Binding = instead of Allocate” anycast method (working with one TURN server = and in all situations), it includes deployment considerations, and is a = way to get consensus of something defined.

 

/Karl

 

 

 

 

 

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: = Brandon Williams [mailto:brandon.williams@akamai.com]
Skickat: den = 12 februari 2017 17:13
Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer = Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org
Kopia: 'Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)'
=C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 = WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

(resending to the list from the correct address; = apologies to those who

receive = multiple copies)

 

--

 

Karl,

 

My = sense of the discussion is that there is in fact consensus on the =

anycast mechanism as described in = the draft, and there has been for

quite some time. That is why the draft was = submitted for publishing in

the = first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the WG failed to =

follow IETF process for reaching = consensus.

 

Since we already have rough consensus on the = mechanism and we clearly do

not = have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires changes, I =

support the chairs' decision to = move forward.

 

--Brandon

 

On = 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl Stahl wrote:

> Simon,

> 

> 

> 

> There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding = any anycast mechanism,

> but we = have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast = mechanism,

> that works for all = cases, which no one has disputed as working and that

> is technically superior.

> 

> 

> 

> Further, it does not exist such = "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and what

> is in current version -12 text is still = undefined and interpreted

> = radically different by participating WG individuals.

> 

> 

> 

> Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version = -10

> (https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02219.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D9Vinivwpl57Ies6e-yU0dUlpAl4fU82P3tUUttRw6To&a= mp;e=3D>)

> 

> 

> referenced https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc5766#section-2.9

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc5766-23section-2D2.9= &d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuad= q6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2= CAYQ&s=3D7l8YhEhODU-mAOOge_PGkmBRe3izR5ccHjCt00fIMKg&e=3D<= /a>>,

> which says:

> 

> "This version of TURN has been designed = to **permit the future

> = specification of a method** of doing anycast discovery of a TURN = server

> over = UDP.

> 

> 

> 

> Previous to my redlined "say Binding = instead of Allocate to

> = discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before = the

> DISCUSS) (in = August,

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02081.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DKy60LXSnuUbd3V9g_U7OQeygIMsDBSIhzoR3CJnhudc&a= mp;e=3D>)

> but = that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded = responded,

> but from an = authentication point of view, as if the method meant a

> mixture of discovery and usage, which was = confusing).

> 

> 

> 

> During the DISCUSS, in response to my request = to fix, Prashanth only

> = said:=A0 We intend to add the following to explain server behavior = a

> little = better:

> 

> “A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 = to 7 discussed in Section 6.2

> = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST = respond

> with a 300 (Try = Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]”

> 

> [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or = does “TURN anycast server”

> imply that there ALSO is a “TURN unicast = server” at the same interface

> accepting the Allocate = request?

> 

> 

> 

> That was never responded to and in your = discussion with me:

> 

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02239.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DlF-ED0y_3a0PpIV86fSvOqTSZ35xA0rHRPSWIT_zg40&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

> 

> [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN = server listening to TWO IP

> = addresses that

> 

>> can respond error 300 or make an = allocation, distinguished by whether the

> 

>> request was received on its anycast = address or its unicast address,

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] Correct.

> 

> 

> 

> [Karl]> and I

> 

>> think Prashanth using the term "TURN = anycast server" means we really have

> 

>> TWO TURN servers to play = with,

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] That would be an equally valid = deployment scenario.

> 

> 

> 

> [Karl]> and I think others interpret the = draft -10

> 

>> text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded = to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT

> 

>> Allocates actually are making = allocations.

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] No, that would be = wrong.

> 

> 

> 

> NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text = to understand what may be

> in = the author’s mind (which they strangely enough never have = spelled

> out), it is NOT the = “TWO LAN IP TURN servers” but *the “**No, that = would

> be = wrong.**”-method that is intended*, see these highlights in the = -12 text!

> 

> IP anycast can also be used for TURN service = discovery. A packet sent to

> = an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" = network

> interface [Karl: = Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. Using

> the TURN anycast address, the only two things = that need to be deployed

> in = the network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN.

> 

> When a client requires TURN services, it sends = a TURN allocate request

> to = the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks = 1

> to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2 of [RFC5766]

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dtur= n-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZc= aMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m= =3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbP= XBtnWym-ieDQliiEuKwilZ8-w&e=3D>.

> If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server = MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> = Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of = [RFC5766]

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dtur= n-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZc= aMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m= =3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbP= XBtnWym-ieDQliiEuKwilZ8-w&e=3D>;

> The response contains the TURN unicast address = in the ALTERNATE-SERVER

> = attribute. For *subsequent*communication with *the*TURN server, = the

> client uses theresponding = server's unicast address. This has to be done

> because two packets addressed to an anycast = address may reach two

> = different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure = that

> the initial request fits = in a single packet. An implementation may

> choose to send out every new TURN Allocation = request to the anycast

> = address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address = for

> the TURN = server.

> 

> I think other participants in the discussion, = also interpret the -12

> text = as the “that would be wrong”-variant, or even worse, a = mixture of

> discovery and = usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come

> in(https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&a= mp;e=3D>

> = )).

> 

> 

> 

> So, current version -12 meaning of text is = probably not only “wrong”,

> but does not work (in addition to being = undefined). Version -12 can have

> no consensus, nor can that be brought into an = RFC.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a = defined and working anycast

> = mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all = cases

> (which no one has = disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration = “in

> Alan Johnston / = Avaya style (compare

> https://datatracker.ietf.= org/ipr/2555

> = <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2555&d=3DDwMFA= w&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJ= a4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-= 3GAqbhshjLGlqn1rJTvvZYBX8hUMnoE9klSH8jcetE&e=3D>)”= ;

> where any party can use the = proposed anycast method (for which patent

> was provisionally applied for October 21, = 2013) free of royalty as long

> = as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us.My = IPR

> Declaration related to = this I-D should appear in day (said when submitting).

> 

> 

> 

> /Karl

> 

> 

> 

> -----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: Simon = Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> Skickat: den 3 = februari 2017 14:43

> Till: = Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= span lang=3DEN-US>; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)'

> =C4mne: Re: = [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> 

> 

> 

> Karl,

> 

> 

> 

> There is no consensus in the working group = behind this new anycast

> 

> mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to = the draft, and the mechanism

> 

> defined in RFC 5766 remains.

> 

> 

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> Simon

> 

> 

> 

> Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit = :

> 

>> The -12 version of the draft does not = include major remedies of flaws

> 

>> that were un-addressed long before the = DISCUSS, nor the latest regarding

> 

>> the possible use of (D)TLS for auto = discovered turn servers provided the

> 

>> local or access network administrator, = see

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02216.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbBFj_GASKSsY_HNdIBjjv0y8sjPtr6zzgj4BQ3oMrdU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> For the latest discussed, = see

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02279.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DJ8IfAGYsotvUD3BZ34GaL2PMdA8VgM4YrjsBZYsWTJU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>>>> However, I think we need agreement = on the justification for such a

> 

>> 

> 

>>> change.

> 

>> 

> 

>>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), = (B), (C) and (D) of

> 

>> 

> 

>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02254.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D88hP4v4Z4-R6Uabxb4H3ZiBhM0Qd5RJVPrV20Xqhdrk&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, = is necessary to achieve (A) and

> 

>> (B), and improves (C) and = (D).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Brandon> It is true that you have = provided a justification for the change.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02296.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D3RTX5rmvnTz6_hFMiKyI82eEcI3D2Wq3NRGBGG-g7HQ&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to = throw into version -10 during

> 

>> the discuss and remains in this version = -11, breaking the consensus text

> 

>> since version -7.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> STUN dummy authentication instead of = (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg

> = Moskalenko

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I have inserted my (now edited and adopted = to the latest) redlining,

> 

>> removal of blue options etc. into the -12 = draft text as attached, for

> 

>> the author to copy from and = paste.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Without my red lining, current version -12 = is in conflict with RFC7478

> 

>> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and = Requirements)=A0 and does not

> 

>> meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] = (Recursively Encapsulated

> 

>> TURN) (see under redlined = 7.2)

> 

>> 

> 

>> and it does not do what was set out in the = Charter and “Milestone 3:

> 

>> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for = enterprise and ISPs”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Further, the authors have in version -12 = (compared to from before

> 

>> DISCUSS)=A0 changed the text “=A0 = 6.=A0 Discovery using Anycast “ to:

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Diet= f-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtra= m-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgS= TI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZLpgA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> “IP anycast can also be used for = TURN service discovery.=A0 A packet

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 sent to an anycast address is = delivered to the "topologically

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 nearest" network interface = with the anycast address.=A0 Using the TURN

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 anycast address, the only two = things that need to be deployed in the

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 network for discovery are the two = things that actually use TURN.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 When a client requires TURN = services, it sends a TURN allocate

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 request to the assigned anycast = address.=A0 A TURN anycast server

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 performs checks 1 to 7 discussed = in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].=A0 If all

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 checks pass, the TURN anycast = server MUST respond with a 300 (Try

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 Alternate) error as described in = Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 response contains the TURN = unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 attribute.=A0 For subsequent = communication with the TURN server, the

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 client uses the responding = server's unicast address.=A0 This has to be

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 done because two packets = addressed to an anycast address may reach

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 two different anycast servers.=A0 = The client, thus, also needs to

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 ensure that the initial request = fits in a single packet.=A0 An

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 implementation may choose to send = out every new TURN Allocation

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 request to the anycast address to = discover the closest and the most

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 optimal unicast address for the = TURN server.”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The highlighted “A TURN anycast = server”=A0 isnothing known nor described

> 

>> (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN = servers, one deployed at the

> 

>> anycast address and another TURN server = deployed at the unicast address,

> 

>> reacting differently to the Allocation = request) for this to work as

> 

>> clarified in WG discussions with = Simon).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The last sentence “An=A0 = implementation may choose to send out every new

> 

>> TURN Allocation request to the anycast = address to discover the closest

> 

>> and the most optimal unicast address for = the TURN server.” violates

> 

>> security and deployment considerations = (see red lined considerations in

> 

>> attached).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Further, the authors have in version -12 = (compared to from before

> 

>> DISCUSS)=A0 changed the text = “7.2.=A0 Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ = to:

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Diet= f-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtra= m-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgS= TI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZLpgA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> “WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any = TURN server discovered through the

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 mechanisms described in this = specification as an enterprise/gateway

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 or access network server, in = accordance with Recursively Encapsulated

> 

>> 

> 

>>=A0=A0=A0 TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The text is a contradiction, since the = return draft deals with TURN

> 

>> servers provided by the local or access = network, not other TURN servers

> 

>> discovered by this draft.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to = be an RFC!*

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I suggest the redline version of draft -12 = attached is chimed into now

> 

>> and quickly merged into a version -13, so = we can avoid the "Conflict

> 

>> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted = about in

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02202.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DxJqnJA5Recy-zn0mjGAwmioTMfhnHGcUQiW8HvTcUAY&a= mp;e=3D>,

> 

>> further delaying what is needed for = Internet real-time communication and

> 

>> especially for WebRTC.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> /Karl

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF

> 

>> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 = 22:12

> 

>> *Till:* Simon Perreault

> 

>> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org> <mailto:tram@ietf.org>;

> Tirumaleswar = Reddy (tireddy)

> 

>> *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D = Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Hi, Simon,

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon = Perreault <sperreault@jive.com

> 

>> <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> 

>> 

> 

>> Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins = at IETF a =E9crit :

> 

>>> Dear TRAMsters,

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, = Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> 

>>> <tireddy@cisco.com = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com%= 20%3cmailto:tireddy@cisco.com>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.= com

> 

>> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> 

>>> 

> 

>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 This revision addresses = comments from Brandon.

> 

>>> 

> 

>>>=A0=A0=A0=A0 -Tiru

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> How close are we to asking Terry to = clear the (last remaining) DISCUSS?

> 

>> 

> 

>> Thanks for the reminder.

> 

>> 

> 

>> If my co-chair and the authors have no = objection, I think we're ready.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I'll give this 24 hours for people to = chime in, but I do want to ping

> 

>> Terry.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD = ballot positions go away when

> 

>> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no = objections now, and you need 10

> 

>> for approval, and three are from ADs who = are stepping down in March ;-)

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Spencer

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> = _______________________________________________

> 

>> tram mailing list

> 

>> tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org>

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> = <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_tram&d=3D= DwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgw= bBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&= s=3DbfMg0C2AcGncycaAxmFKGxYyCDivv_QxmIJUrJgAIHA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> --

> 

> Simon Perreault

> 

> Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive = Communications, Inc.

> 

> https://jive.com

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__jive.com&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-0naNOVsq-b3TnBmNWKQhh= f-TF_BR_JdB-AIEp4Azag&e=3D>

> | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 = | sperreault@jive.com

> <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>

> 

> 

> 

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing list

> tram@ietf.org<= o:p>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> 

 

-- =

Brandon Williams; Chief = Architect

Cloud Networking; Akamai = Technologies Inc.

 

-- =

Brandon Williams; Chief = Architect

Cloud Networking; Akamai = Technologies Inc.

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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 07:42:51 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_08EB_01D28767.74CA6C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Authors: Tiru, Prashpanth, Dan (still there?), =20 Reading the below (not mentioning TWO TURN servers, saying =93TURN = anycast server=94) and Tiru=92s 7th of February pointer to =20 =93 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar mechanism.=94: 3.4. Service = Discovery Applications able to tolerate an extra round-trip time (RTT) to learn a unicast destination address for multipacket exchanges might safely use anycast destination addresses for service instance discovery. For example, "instance discovery" messages are sent to an anycast destination address, and a reply is subsequently sent from the unique unicast source address of the interface that received the discovery message, or a reply is sent from the anycast source address of the interface that received the message, containing the unicast address to be used to invoke the service. Only the latter of these will avoid potential NAT binding and stateful firewall issues. =20 I think the current =93pointing at each other in circles=94 comes from = that we have not realized how Anycast routing is done:=20 =20 An server is installed at a an IP address. We call it anycast server = because it is reachable by an anycast address. The forwarder (router/firewall) = that knows where the anycast server is located *exchanges the destination = address in the packet* (if the server is at a unicast address) to make it arrive = at the server and therefore the server cannot know how it originally was addressed (by an anycast address or by its unicast address). =20 So it is a ROUTING ISSUE, not a TURN server issue (=93not all TURN = servers may support anycast.=94 As the text under =933. Discovery Procedure=94 says = is confusing), that the TURN server cannot know whether it is in the = discovery phase (and shall respond with the error 300) or in the usage phase (and actually shall make an Allocation). =20 I think seeing this as a TURN server issue has made us confused. By = sending a Binding (instead of Allocate) during the discovery phase, the TURN = server knows it is in discovery phase and can respond with the error 300 (containing the TURN server=92s unicast address).=20 =20 Seeing/Understanding this, isn=92t that an opening so authors can adjust = the version -12 text and we can move forward? =20 /Karl =20 =20 Fr=E5n: tram [ = mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r Karl Stahl Skickat: den 13 februari 2017 20:53 Till: 'Brandon Williams'; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org Kopia: 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 Regarding Anycast: =20 Brandon, previous email > I haven't read the redlined version=20 --- The anycast related redlining of version -12 is the same as I did in version -10 that you read and discussed/commented with one thing that I addressed. Let's not make too much of that, since there is no common understanding of what the Author's anycast method actually is.=20 =20 =20 Reality is:=20 - Tiru says he agrees with other (Simon, but that discussion was based around the "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method assumption) but Tiru gave = a pointer in another direction. - Prashpanth extra text during discuss (in version -12 now) rather = points at another interpretation, using only one TURN server, that answers differently, depending on when accessed. - And Brandon seems to point to Tiru - Dissident me highlighted the flaws already in version -08 (when = reading the =93not all TURN servers may support anycast.=94 statement) but = Author's did not respond =20 Checking History: =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-00=20 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request to the assigned anycast address. The responding TURN anycast server puts its own unicast address as the source address in the reply message. For subsequent =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01=20 When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request to the assigned anycast address. The TURN anycast server responds with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]; The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE- SERVER attribute. For subsequent =20 The =93not all TURN servers may support anycast.=94 statement appeared = later in=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-02=20 =20 Nothing of this indicates that the Authors mean the "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method Simon and I discussed and the continued silence from = the Author=92s just confirms that -12 lacks an anycast specification that = can be implemented and used. Further, version -12 lacks deployment = considerations. =20 The red-lined version -12 defines the =93say Binding instead of = Allocate=94 anycast method (working with one TURN server and in all situations), it includes deployment considerations, and is a way to get consensus of something defined. =20 /Karl =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fr=E5n: Brandon Williams [ mailto:brandon.williams@akamai.com]=20 Skickat: den 12 februari 2017 17:13 Till: Karl Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org Kopia: 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D = Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt =20 (resending to the list from the correct address; apologies to those who=20 receive multiple copies) =20 -- =20 Karl, =20 My sense of the discussion is that there is in fact consensus on the=20 anycast mechanism as described in the draft, and there has been for=20 quite some time. That is why the draft was submitted for publishing in=20 the first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the WG failed to=20 follow IETF process for reaching consensus. =20 Since we already have rough consensus on the mechanism and we clearly do = not have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires changes, I=20 support the chairs' decision to move forward. =20 --Brandon =20 On 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl Stahl wrote: > Simon, >=20 >=20 >=20 > There is no consensus yet whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism, > but we have a chance getting consensus of a working anycast mechanism, > that works for all cases, which no one has disputed as working and = that > is technically superior. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Further, it does not exist such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and = what > is in current version -12 text is still undefined and interpreted > radically different by participating WG individuals. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Only Tiru, during the DISCUSS, after version -10 > ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02219.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D9Vinivwpl57Ies6e-yU0dUlpAl4fU82P3tUUttRw6To&e=3D>) >=20 >=20 > referenced https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-2.9 > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_rfc 5766-23section-2D2.9&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWm= cGKRIuadq 6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&= s=3D7l8 YhEhODU-mAOOge_PGkmBRe3izR5ccHjCt00fIMKg&e=3D>, > which says: >=20 > "This version of TURN has been designed to **permit the future > specification of a method** of doing anycast discovery of a TURN = server > over UDP. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Previous to my redlined "say Binding instead of Allocate to > discover"-method, I questioned version -08 of the draft (before the > DISCUSS) (in August, > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02081.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DKy60LXSnuUbd3V9g_U7OQeygIMsDBSIhzoR3CJnhudc&e=3D>) > but that was not responded to by the authors (only Branded responded, > but from an authentication point of view, as if the method meant a > mixture of discovery and usage, which was confusing). >=20 >=20 >=20 > During the DISCUSS, in response to my request to fix, Prashanth only > said: We intend to add the following to explain server behavior a > little better: >=20 > =93A TURN anycast server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2 > of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond > with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in [RFC5766]=94 >=20 > [Karl] That must be an update of RFC5766. Or does =93TURN anycast = server=94 > imply that there ALSO is a =93TURN unicast server=94 at the same = interface > accepting the Allocate request? >=20 >=20 >=20 > That was never responded to and in your discussion with me: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02239.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DlF-ED0y_3a0PpIV86fSvOqTSZ35xA0rHRPSWIT_zg40&e=3D> >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> (I think Brandon assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP > addresses that >=20 >> can respond error 300 or make an allocation, distinguished by whether = the >=20 >> request was received on its anycast address or its unicast address, >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] Correct. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> and I >=20 >> think Prashanth using the term "TURN anycast server" means we really = have >=20 >> TWO TURN servers to play with, >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] That would be an equally valid deployment scenario. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Karl]> and I think others interpret the draft -10 >=20 >> text as if the FIRST Allocate is responded to with error 300 and SUBSEQUENT >=20 >> Allocates actually are making allocations. >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Simon] No, that would be wrong. >=20 >=20 >=20 > NOW, reverse engineering the current -12 text to understand what may = be > in the author=92s mind (which they strangely enough never have spelled > out), it is NOT the =93TWO LAN IP TURN servers=94 but *the =93**No, = that would > be wrong.**=94-method that is intended*, see these highlights in the = -12 text! >=20 > IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet sent = to > an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically nearest" network > interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the anycast address. = Using > the TURN anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed > in the network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN. >=20 > When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate request > to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks = 1 > to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766] > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_= draft -2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw= &c=3D96 ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3D= LlHl6jk 02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbPXBtnWym-ieDQli= iEuKw ilZ8-w&e=3D>. > If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try > Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766] > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_= draft -2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw= &c=3D96 ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3D= LlHl6jk 02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbPXBtnWym-ieDQli= iEuKw ilZ8-w&e=3D>; > The response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER > attribute. For *subsequent*communication with *the*TURN server, the > client uses theresponding server's unicast address. This has to be = done > because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach two > different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to ensure that > the initial request fits in a single packet. An implementation may > choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request to the anycast > address to discover the closest and the most optimal unicast address = for > the TURN server. >=20 > I think other participants in the discussion, also interpret the -12 > text as the =93that would be wrong=94-variant, or even worse, a = mixture of > discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might come > in( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&e=3D> > )). >=20 >=20 >=20 > So, current version -12 meaning of text is probably not only = =93wrong=94, > but does not work (in addition to being undefined). Version -12 can = have > no consensus, nor can that be brought into an RFC. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > In order to NOW ease to get consensus for a defined and working = anycast > mechanism (my redlining of the -12 text), that works for all cases > (which no one has disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration =93in > Alan Johnston / Avaya style (compare > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2555 > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.o= rg_ip r_2555&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSn= sgwbBVUJa 4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-3GAqbhshj= LGlqn1r JTvvZYBX8hUMnoE9klSH8jcetE&e=3D>)=94 > where any party can use the proposed anycast method (for which patent > was provisionally applied for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as = long > as not asserting a patent right of its owns against us.My IPR > Declaration related to this I-D should appear in day (said when submitting). >=20 >=20 >=20 > /Karl >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fr=E5n: Simon Perreault [ mailto:sperreault@jive.com] > Skickat: den 3 februari 2017 14:43 > Till: Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF' > Kopia: tram@ietf.org; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)' > =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D > Action: draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > Karl, >=20 >=20 >=20 > There is no consensus in the working group behind this new anycast >=20 > mechanism. Therefore it can not be added to the draft, and the = mechanism >=20 > defined in RFC 5766 remains. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Simon >=20 >=20 >=20 > Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, Karl Stahl a =E9crit : >=20 >> The -12 version of the draft does not include major remedies of flaws >=20 >> that were un-addressed long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest = regarding >=20 >> the possible use of (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided = the >=20 >> local or access network administrator, see >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02216.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbBFj_GASKSsY_HNdIBjjv0y8sjPtr6zzgj4BQ3oMrdU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> For the latest discussed, see >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02279.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DJ8IfAGYsotvUD3BZ34GaL2PMdA8VgM4YrjsBZYsWTJU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>>> However, I think we need agreement on the justification for such a >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> change. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> [Karl] Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02254.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D88hP4v4Z4-R6Uabxb4H3ZiBhM0Qd5RJVPrV20Xqhdrk&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>> where saying Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and >=20 >> (B), and improves (C) and (D). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Brandon> It is true that you have provided a justification for the change. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02296.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D3RTX5rmvnTz6_hFMiKyI82eEcI3D2Wq3NRGBGG-g7HQ&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The (D)TLS mandating was Author's idea to throw into version -10 = during >=20 >> the discuss and remains in this version -11, breaking the consensus = text >=20 >> since version -7. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> STUN dummy authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by Oleg > Moskalenko >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I have inserted my (now edited and adopted to the latest) redlining, >=20 >> removal of blue options etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for >=20 >> the author to copy from and paste. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Without my red lining, current version -12 is in conflict with = RFC7478 >=20 >> (Web Real-Time Communication Use Cases and Requirements) and does = not >=20 >> meet the need of [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively Encapsulated >=20 >> TURN) (see under redlined 7.2) >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> and it does not do what was set out in the Charter and =93Milestone = 3: >=20 >> TURN server auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and ISPs=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before >=20 >> DISCUSS) changed the text =93 6. Discovery using Anycast =93 to: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfc= diff- 3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-= 3Dd raft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96= ZbZZcaM F4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk= 02cblMw TNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgSTI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZ= LpgA& e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> =93IP anycast can also be used for TURN service discovery. A packet >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> sent to an anycast address is delivered to the "topologically >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> nearest" network interface with the anycast address. Using the = TURN >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> network for discovery are the two things that actually use TURN. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> When a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN allocate >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> request to the assigned anycast address. A TURN anycast server >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766]. If = all >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 (Try >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; The >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> response contains the TURN unicast address in the ALTERNATE-SERVER >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> attribute. For subsequent communication with the TURN server, the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> client uses the responding server's unicast address. This has to = be >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> done because two packets addressed to an anycast address may reach >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> two different anycast servers. The client, thus, also needs to >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet. An >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> implementation may choose to send out every new TURN Allocation >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the = most >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The highlighted =93A TURN anycast server=94 isnothing known nor = described >=20 >> (in fact there would have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the >=20 >> anycast address and another TURN server deployed at the unicast = address, >=20 >> reacting differently to the Allocation request) for this to work as >=20 >> clarified in WG discussions with Simon). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The last sentence =93An implementation may choose to send out every = new >=20 >> TURN Allocation request to the anycast address to discover the = closest >=20 >> and the most optimal unicast address for the TURN server.=94 violates >=20 >> security and deployment considerations (see red lined considerations = in >=20 >> attached). >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Further, the authors have in version -12 (compared to from before >=20 >> DISCUSS) changed the text =937.2. Recursively Encapsulated TURN =93 = to: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discove= ry-09 .txt&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfc= diff- 3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-= 3Dd raft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96= ZbZZcaM F4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk= 02cblMw TNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgSTI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZ= LpgA& e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> =93WebRTC endpoints SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> mechanisms described in this specification as an = enterprise/gateway >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> or access network server, in accordance with Recursively = Encapsulated >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> TURN [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].=94 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> The text is a contradiction, since the return draft deals with TURN >=20 >> servers provided by the local or access network, not other TURN = servers >=20 >> discovered by this draft. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> *Current -12 draft cannot be considered to be an RFC!* >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I suggest the redline version of draft -12 attached is chimed into = now >=20 >> and quickly merged into a version -13, so we can avoid the "Conflict >=20 >> Resolution and Appeals"process hinted about in >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-= 2Darc hive_web_tram_current_msg02202.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg= &r=3DbwZ- nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8l= He8gk iIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DxJqnJA5Recy-zn0mjGAwmioTMfhnHGcUQiW8HvTcUAY&e=3D>, >=20 >> further delaying what is needed for Internet real-time communication = and >=20 >> especially for WebRTC. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> /Karl >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> *Fr=E5n:*tram [ mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF >=20 >> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 22:12 >=20 >> *Till:* Simon Perreault >=20 >> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org < = mailto:tram@ietf.org> < mailto:tram@ietf.org>; > Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >=20 >> *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Hi, Simon, >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault =20 >> < mailto:sperreault@jive.com>> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Le 2017-02-01 =E0 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit : >=20 >>> Dear TRAMsters, >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) >=20 >>> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com%20%3cmailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>=20 >> < mailto:tireddy@cisco.com>>> wrote: >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> This revision addresses comments from Brandon. >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> -Tiru >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>>=20 >=20 >>> How close are we to asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS? >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Thanks for the reminder. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> If my co-chair and the authors have no objection, I think we're = ready. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> I'll give this 24 hours for people to chime in, but I do want to ping >=20 >> Terry. >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> It's a little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away when >=20 >> ADs go away; this document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need = 10 >=20 >> for approval, and three are from ADs who are stepping down in March = ;-) >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> Spencer >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 >> _______________________________________________ >=20 >> tram mailing list >=20 >> tram@ietf.org < mailto:tram@ietf.org> >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm= an_li stinfo_tram&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq= 6-NSnsgwb BVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbfMg0= C2AcGnc ycaAxmFKGxYyCDivv_QxmIJUrJgAIHA&e=3D> >=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Simon Perreault >=20 > Director of Engineering, Platform | Jive Communications, Inc. >=20 > https://jive.com > < https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__jive.com&d=3DDwMFA= w&c=3D96Z bZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk0 2cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-0naNOVsq-b3TnBmNWKQhhf-TF_BR_JdB= -AIEp 4Azag&e=3D> > | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com > < mailto:sperreault@jive.com> >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 =20 --=20 Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. =20 --=20 Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. ------=_NextPart_000_08EB_01D28767.74CA6C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Au= thors: Tiru, Prashpanth, Dan (still there?),

 

Re= ading the below (not mentioning TWO TURN servers, saying “TURN = anycast server”) and Tiru’s 7th of February = pointer to=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0

&#= 8220;https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7094#section-3.4 also discusses similar = mechanism.”:

3.4.=A0 Service = Discovery

=A0=A0 Applications = able to tolerate an extra round-trip time (RTT) to = learn

=A0=A0 a unicast = destination address for multipacket exchanges might = safely

=A0=A0 use anycast = destination addresses for service instance = discovery.

=A0=A0 For example, = "instance discovery" messages are sent to an = anycast

=A0=A0 destination = address, and a reply is subsequently sent from the = unique

=A0=A0 unicast = source address of the interface that received the = discovery

=A0=A0 message, or = a reply is sent from the anycast source address of = the

=A0=A0 interface = that received the message, containing the unicast = address

=A0=A0 to be used = to invoke the service.=A0 Only the latter of these = will

=A0=A0 avoid = potential NAT binding and stateful firewall = issues.

 

I = think the current “pointing at each other in circles” comes = from that we have not realized how Anycast routing is done: =

 

An= server is installed at a an IP address. We call it anycast server = because it is reachable by an anycast address. The forwarder = (router/firewall) that knows where the anycast server is located = *exchanges the destination address in the packet* (if the server = is at a unicast address) to make it arrive at the server and therefore = the server cannot know how it originally was addressed (by an anycast = address or by its unicast address).

 

So= it is a ROUTING ISSUE, not a TURN server issue (“not all TURN servers may = support anycast.” As the text under = “3. Discovery Procedure” says is confusing), = that the TURN server cannot know whether it is in the discovery phase = (and shall respond with the error 300) or in the usage phase (and = actually shall make an Allocation).

 

I = think seeing this as a TURN server issue has made us confused. By = sending a Binding (instead of Allocate) during the discovery phase, the = TURN server knows it is in discovery phase and can respond with the = error 300 (containing the TURN server’s unicast address). =

 

Se= eing/Understanding this, isn’t that an opening so authors can = adjust the version -12 text and we can move = forward?

 

/K= arl

 

 

Fr=E5n: tram = [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] F=F6r = Karl Stahl
Skickat: den 13 februari 2017 = 20:53
Till: 'Brandon Williams'; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer = Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org
Kopia= : 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'
=C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime = in on attched redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

<= /div>

 

Regarding Anycast:

 

Brandon, previous email > I = haven't read the redlined version

--- The anycast related = redlining of version -12 is the same as I did in version -10 that you = read and discussed/commented with one thing that I addressed. Let's not = make too much of that, since there is no common understanding of what = the Author's anycast method actually is.

 

 

Reality is: =

- Tiru = says he agrees with other (Simon, but that discussion was based around = the "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method assumption) but Tiru = gave a pointer in another direction.

- Prashpanth extra text during = discuss (in version -12 now) rather points at another interpretation, = using only one TURN server, that answers differently, depending on when = accessed.

- And Brandon seems to point to = Tiru

- = Dissident me highlighted the flaws already in version -08 (when reading = the “not all TURN servers may support = anycast.” statement) but Author's did = not respond

 

Checking History:

 

h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-00 =

When a = client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

   request to the assigned anycast address.  = The responding = TURN anycast

   server = puts its own unicast address as the source address in = the

   reply = message.  For = subsequent

 

h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patil-tram-turn-serv-disc-01 =

When a = client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

   request to the assigned anycast address.  = The TURN anycast = server

   responds = with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in = [RFC5766];

   The = response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-

   SERVER = attribute.  For = subsequent

 

The “not all TURN servers may = support anycast.” statement appeared = later in

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-02=

 

Nothing of this indicates that the Authors mean the = "Two LAN IP TURN server(s)" method Simon and I discussed and = the continued silence from the Author’s just confirms that -12 = lacks an anycast specification that can be implemented and used. = Further, version -12 lacks deployment = considerations.

 

The red-lined version -12 defines the “say Binding = instead of Allocate” anycast method (working with one TURN server = and in all situations), it includes deployment considerations, and is a = way to get consensus of something defined.

 

/Karl

 

 

 

 

 

-----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Brandon Williams [mailto:brandon.williams@akamai.com]
Skickat: den 12 februari 2017 17:13
Till: Karl = Stahl; 'Simon Perreault'; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'; tram@ietf.org
Kopia: = 'Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)'
=C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched = redlined version-12 WAS: I-D Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

 

(resending to the list from the = correct address; apologies to those who

receive multiple = copies)

 

--

 

Karl,

 

My sense of the discussion is that there is in fact = consensus on the

anycast mechanism as described in the draft, and there has = been for

quite some time. That is why the draft was submitted for = publishing in

the first place. One vocal dissent does not mean that the = WG failed to

follow IETF process for reaching = consensus.

 

Since we already have rough consensus on the mechanism and = we clearly do

not have even rough consensus that the mechanism requires = changes, I

support the chairs' decision to move = forward.

 

--Brandon

 

On 02/06/2017 05:10 AM, Karl = Stahl wrote:

> Simon,

> 

> 

> 

> There is no consensus yet = whatsoever regarding any anycast mechanism,

> but we have a chance = getting consensus of a working anycast = mechanism,

> that works for all cases, which no one has disputed as = working and that

> is technically superior.

> 

> 

> 

> Further, it does not exist = such "mechanism defined in RFC 5766" and = what

> is in current version -12 text is still undefined and = interpreted

> radically different by participating WG = individuals.

> 

> 

> 

> Only Tiru, during the = DISCUSS, after version -10

> (https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02219.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02219.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D9Vinivwpl57Ies6e-yU0dUlpAl4fU82P3tUUttRw6To&a= mp;e=3D>)

> 

> 

> referenced https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/rfc5766#section-2.9

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_rfc5766-23section-2D2.9= &d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuad= q6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2= CAYQ&s=3D7l8YhEhODU-mAOOge_PGkmBRe3izR5ccHjCt00fIMKg&e=3D<= /a>>,

> which = says:

> 

> "This version of TURN = has been designed to **permit the future

> specification of a method** = of doing anycast discovery of a TURN server

> over = UDP.

> 

> 

> 

> Previous to my redlined = "say Binding instead of Allocate to

> discover"-method, I = questioned version -08 of the draft (before the

> DISCUSS) (in = August,

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02081.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02081.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DKy60LXSnuUbd3V9g_U7OQeygIMsDBSIhzoR3CJnhudc&a= mp;e=3D>)

> but that was not responded = to by the authors (only Branded responded,

> but from an authentication = point of view, as if the method meant a

> mixture of discovery and = usage, which was confusing).

> 

> 

> 

> During the DISCUSS, in = response to my request to fix, Prashanth only

> said:  We intend to = add the following to explain server behavior a

> little = better:

> 

> “A TURN anycast = server performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2

> = of RFC5766. If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST = respond

> with a 300 (Try Alternate) error as described in = [RFC5766]”

> 

> [Karl] That must be an = update of RFC5766. Or does “TURN anycast = server”

> imply that there ALSO is a “TURN unicast = server” at the same interface

> accepting the Allocate = request?

> 

> 

> 

> That was never responded to = and in your discussion with me:

> 

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02239.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02239.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DlF-ED0y_3a0PpIV86fSvOqTSZ35xA0rHRPSWIT_zg40&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

> 

> [Karl]> (I think Brandon = assumes a TURN server listening to TWO IP

> addresses = that

> 

>> can respond error 300 = or make an allocation, distinguished by whether = the

> 

>> request was received on = its anycast address or its unicast address,

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] = Correct.

> 

> 

> 

> [Karl]> and = I

> 

>> think Prashanth using = the term "TURN anycast server" means we really = have

> 

>> TWO TURN servers to = play with,

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] That would be an = equally valid deployment scenario.

> 

> 

> 

> [Karl]> and I think = others interpret the draft -10

> 

>> text as if the FIRST = Allocate is responded to with error 300 and = SUBSEQUENT

> 

>> Allocates actually are = making allocations.

> 

> 

> 

> [Simon] No, that would be = wrong.

> 

> 

> 

> NOW, reverse engineering = the current -12 text to understand what may be

> in the author’s mind = (which they strangely enough never have spelled

> out), it is NOT the = “TWO LAN IP TURN servers” but *the “**No, that = would

> be wrong.**”-method that is intended*, see these = highlights in the -12 text!

> 

> IP anycast can also be used = for TURN service discovery. A packet sent to

> an anycast address is = delivered to the "topologically nearest" = network

> interface [Karl: Nearest cannot be two] with the = anycast address. Using

> the TURN anycast address, = the only two things that need to be deployed

> in the network for = discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN.

> 

> When a client requires TURN = services, it sends a TURN allocate request

> to the assigned anycast = address. A TURN anycast serverperforms checks 1

> to 7 discussed in Section = 6.2 of [RFC5766]

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dtur= n-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZc= aMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m= =3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbP= XBtnWym-ieDQliiEuKwilZ8-w&e=3D>.

> If all checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST = respond with a 300 (Try

> Alternate) error as = described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dietf-2Dtram-2Dtur= n-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.html-23RFC5766&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZc= aMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m= =3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DNjtWzkAK2zeIDoPlbP= XBtnWym-ieDQliiEuKwilZ8-w&e=3D>;

> The response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-SERVER

> attribute. For *subsequent*communication with = *the*TURN server, the

> client uses theresponding server's unicast address. = This has to be done

> because two packets addressed to an anycast address = may reach two

> different anycast servers. The client, thus, also = needs to ensure that

> the initial request fits in a single packet. An = implementation may

> choose to send out every new TURN Allocation request = to the anycast

> address to discover the closest and the most optimal = unicast address for

> the TURN server.

> 

> I think other participants = in the discussion, also interpret the -12

> text as the “that = would be wrong”-variant, or even worse, a mixture = of

> = discovery and usage authentication (where (D)TLS might = come

> in(https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&a= mp;e=3D>

> )).

> 

> 

> 

> So, current version -12 = meaning of text is probably not only = “wrong”,

> but does not work (in addition to being undefined). = Version -12 can have

> no consensus, nor can that be brought into an = RFC.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> In order to NOW ease to get = consensus for a defined and working anycast

> mechanism (my redlining of = the -12 text), that works for all cases

> (which no one has = disputed), I have just made an IPR declaration = “in

> Alan Johnston / Avaya style = (compare

> https://datatracker.ietf.= org/ipr/2555

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_ipr_2555&d=3DDwMFA= w&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJ= a4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-= 3GAqbhshjLGlqn1rJTvvZYBX8hUMnoE9klSH8jcetE&e=3D>)”

> where any party can use the = proposed anycast method (for which patent

> was provisionally applied = for October 21, 2013) free of royalty as long

> as not asserting a patent = right of its owns against us.My IPR

> Declaration related to this = I-D should appear in day (said when submitting).

> 

> 

> 

> /Karl

> 

> 

> 

> -----Ursprungligt = meddelande-----

> Fr=E5n: Simon = Perreault [mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m]

> Skickat: den 3 = februari 2017 14:43

> Till: = Karl Stahl; 'Spencer Dawkins at IETF'

> Kopia: tram@ietf.org<= span lang=3DEN-US>; 'Tirumaleswar Reddy = (tireddy)'

> =C4mne: Re: [tram] Chime in on attched redlined = version-12 WAS: I-D

> Action: = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> 

> 

> 

> = Karl,

> 

> 

> 

> There is no consensus in = the working group behind this new anycast

> 

> mechanism. Therefore it can = not be added to the draft, and the mechanism

> 

> defined in RFC 5766 = remains.

> 

> 

> 

> = Thanks,

> 

> = Simon

> 

> 

> 

> Le 2017-02-02 =E0 18:23, = Karl Stahl a =E9crit :

> 

>> The -12 version of the = draft does not include major remedies of flaws

> 

>> that were un-addressed = long before the DISCUSS, nor the latest = regarding

> 

>> the possible use of = (D)TLS for auto discovered turn servers provided = the

> 

>> local or access network = administrator, see

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02216.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02216.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DbBFj_GASKSsY_HNdIBjjv0y8sjPtr6zzgj4BQ3oMrdU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> For the latest = discussed, see

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02279.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02279.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DJ8IfAGYsotvUD3BZ34GaL2PMdA8VgM4YrjsBZYsWTJU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>>>> However, I = think we need agreement on the justification for such = a

> 

>> 

> 

>>> = change.

> 

>> 

> 

>>> [Karl] = Justification is in the (A), (B), (C) and (D) of

> 

>> 

> 

>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02254.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02254.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D88hP4v4Z4-R6Uabxb4H3ZiBhM0Qd5RJVPrV20Xqhdrk&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>>> where saying = Binding instead Allocate, is necessary to achieve (A) = and

> 

>> (B), and improves (C) = and (D).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Brandon> It is true = that you have provided a justification for the = change.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02296.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02296.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D3RTX5rmvnTz6_hFMiKyI82eEcI3D2Wq3NRGBGG-g7HQ&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> The (D)TLS mandating = was Author's idea to throw into version -10 = during

> 

>> the discuss and remains = in this version -11, breaking the consensus text

> 

>> since version = -7.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02297.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02297.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DckHAyWA3lSkWuR_x23jKoarxwQ5p83eHWlRLRR0-WGU&a= mp;e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> STUN dummy = authentication instead of (D)TLS as suggested by = Oleg

> Moskalenko

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I have inserted my (now = edited and adopted to the latest) redlining,

> 

>> removal of blue options = etc. into the -12 draft text as attached, for

> 

>> the author to copy from = and paste.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Without my red lining, = current version -12 is in conflict with RFC7478

> 

>> (Web Real-Time = Communication Use Cases and Requirements)  and does = not

> 

>> meet the need of = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return] (Recursively = Encapsulated

> 

>> TURN) (see under = redlined 7.2)

> 

>> 

> 

>> and it does not do what = was set out in the Charter and “Milestone = 3:

> 

>> TURN server = auto-discovery mechanism for enterprise and = ISPs”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Further, the authors = have in version -12 (compared to from before

> 

>> DISCUSS)  changed = the text “  6.  Discovery using Anycast “ = to:

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Diet= f-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtra= m-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgS= TI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZLpgA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> “IP anycast can = also be used for TURN service discovery.  A = packet

> 

>> 

> 

>>    sent = to an anycast address is delivered to the = "topologically

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = nearest" network interface with the anycast address.  Using = the TURN

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = anycast address, the only two things that need to be deployed in = the

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = network for discovery are the two things that actually use = TURN.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>>    When = a client requires TURN services, it sends a TURN = allocate

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = request to the assigned anycast address.  A TURN anycast = server

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = performs checks 1 to 7 discussed in Section 6.2 of [RFC5766].  If = all

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = checks pass, the TURN anycast server MUST respond with a 300 = (Try

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = Alternate) error as described in Section 2.9 of [RFC5766]; = The

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = response contains the TURN unicast address in the = ALTERNATE-SERVER

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = attribute.  For subsequent communication with the TURN server, = the

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = client uses the responding server's unicast address.  This has to = be

> 

>> 

> 

>>    done = because two packets addressed to an anycast address may = reach

> 

>> 

> 

>>    two = different anycast servers.  The client, thus, also needs = to

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = ensure that the initial request fits in a single packet.  = An

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = implementation may choose to send out every new TURN = Allocation

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = request to the anycast address to discover the closest and the = most

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = optimal unicast address for the TURN = server.”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The highlighted = “A TURN anycast server”  isnothing known nor = described

> 

>> (in fact there would = have to be TWO TURN servers, one deployed at the

> 

>> anycast address and = another TURN server deployed at the unicast = address,

> 

>> reacting differently to = the Allocation request) for this to work as

> 

>> clarified in WG = discussions with Simon).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The last sentence = “An  implementation may choose to send out every = new

> 

>> TURN Allocation request = to the anycast address to discover the closest

> 

>> and the most optimal = unicast address for the TURN server.” = violates

> 

>> security and deployment = considerations (see red lined considerations in

> 

>> = attached).

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Further, the authors = have in version -12 (compared to from before

> 

>> DISCUSS)  changed = the text “7.2.  Recursively Encapsulated TURN “ = to:

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> https://tools.ietf.org/rf= cdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-09.txt&url2=3Ddraf= t-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl1-3Ddraft-2Diet= f-2Dtram-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D09.txt-26url2-3Ddraft-2Dietf-2Dtra= m-2Dturn-2Dserver-2Ddiscovery-2D12.txt&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3Dp9f6UjD__Fo0xiUk6DaYgS= TI26yAZyz0VNDbpfZLpgA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

>> “WebRTC endpoints = SHOULD treat any TURN server discovered through = the

> 

>> 

> 

>>    = mechanisms described in this specification as an = enterprise/gateway

> 

>> 

> 

>>    or = access network server, in accordance with Recursively = Encapsulated

> 

>> 

> 

>>    TURN = [I-D.ietf-rtcweb-return].”

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> The text is a = contradiction, since the return draft deals with = TURN

> 

>> servers provided by the = local or access network, not other TURN servers

> 

>> discovered by this = draft.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> *Current -12 draft = cannot be considered to be an RFC!*

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I suggest the redline = version of draft -12 attached is chimed into now

> 

>> and quickly merged into = a version -13, so we can avoid the = "Conflict

> 

>> Resolution and = Appeals"process hinted about in

> 

>> 

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= -archive/web/tram/current/msg02202.html

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail-2Darchive_web_tram_curren= t_msg02202.html&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ= -nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02= Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3DxJqnJA5Recy-zn0mjGAwmioTMfhnHGcUQiW8HvTcUAY&a= mp;e=3D>,

> 

>> further delaying what = is needed for Internet real-time communication = and

> 

>> especially for WebRTC.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> /Karl

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> *Fr=E5n:*tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.= org] *F=F6r *Spencer Dawkins at IETF

> 

>> *Skickat:* den 1 februari 2017 = 22:12

> 

>> *Till:* Simon Perreault

> 

>> *Kopia:* tram@ietf.org = <mailto:tram@ietf.org> <mailto:tram@ietf.org>;

> Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> 

>> *=C4mne:* Re: [tram] = I-D Action:

> = draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> Hi, = Simon,

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at = 6:00 AM, Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com

> 

>> <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>> wrote:

> 

>> 

> 

>> Le 2017-02-01 =E0 = 15:37, Spencer Dawkins at IETF a =E9crit :

> 

>>> Dear = TRAMsters,

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> On Fri, Jan 13, = 2017 at 12:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)

> 

>>> = <tireddy@cisco.com = <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com%= 20%3cmailto:tireddy@cisco.com>><mailto:tireddy@cisco.com

> 

>> <mailto:tireddy@cisco.com<= /span>>>> wrote:

> 

>>> 

> 

>>>     This revision = addresses comments from Brandon.

> 

>>> 

> 

>>>     = -Tiru

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> 

> 

>>> How close are we to = asking Terry to clear the (last remaining) = DISCUSS?

> 

>> 

> 

>> Thanks for the = reminder.

> 

>> 

> 

>> If my co-chair and the = authors have no objection, I think we're ready.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> I'll give this 24 hours = for people to chime in, but I do want to ping

> 

>> = Terry.

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> It's a = little-appreciated thing, but AD ballot positions go away = when

> 

>> ADs go away; this = document has 12 yes/no objections now, and you need = 10

> 

>> for approval, and three = are from ADs who are stepping down in March ;-)

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> = Spencer

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> 

> 

>> = _______________________________________________

> 

>> tram mailing = list

> 

>> tram@ietf.org<= span lang=3DEN-US> <mailto:tram@ietf.org>

> 

>> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_tram&d=3D= DwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgw= bBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DLlHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&= s=3DbfMg0C2AcGncycaAxmFKGxYyCDivv_QxmIJUrJgAIHA&e=3D>

> 

>> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> --

> 

> Simon = Perreault

> 

> Director of Engineering, = Platform | Jive Communications, Inc.

> 

> https://jive.com

> <https://urldefense.proofp= oint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__jive.com&d=3DDwMFAw&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4= w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DbwZ-nnRGWmcGKRIuadq6-NSnsgwbBVUJa4mZfmEIBXg&m=3DL= lHl6jk02cblMwTNHwaYXp02Cfy8lHe8gkiIfZ2CAYQ&s=3D-0naNOVsq-b3TnBmNWKQhh= f-TF_BR_JdB-AIEp4Azag&e=3D>

> | +1 418 478 0989 ext. 1241 | sperreault@jive.com

> <mailto:sperreault@jive.co= m>

> 

> 

> 

> = _______________________________________________

> tram mailing = list

> tram@ietf.org<= span lang=3DEN-US>

> https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/tram

> 

 

--

Brandon Williams; Chief = Architect

Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies = Inc.

 

--

Brandon Williams; Chief Architect

Cloud Networking; Akamai = Technologies Inc.

------=_NextPart_000_08EB_01D28767.74CA6C50-- From nobody Wed Feb 15 05:10:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6CA129573 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ceRTAQre8iOZ for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 510F7127071 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id e4so31656092pfg.1 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jive-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:subject:to:cc:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vvSpT44iiKNh3/EM/dLOqZouG1OldsyrOW/IuQXksdc=; b=GISB426urZ8kfNs4Uf5jQzoHSFb7OJJmik2a9vt2ZEZmF+BlwmJ7LWWJXpiQSHSM9H jCIeduTS1jsdNdSPIMIv5k/B91Bf125onHnkj00G8klKRUtKByhAatgYEfBIg/N2K4gw ADLR60ofqSOdnmHqQVe/TOoI22nSRFUmyxaK/w/y0KEiZUPgMS7v+Dw3upG1/+6DWes9 ForVUHFc1GpYowZFjlPq8/dIsq5stSexbfyKD3q5sPIAs5eiKvW2TnP9xScRG3seEnkS OS5ZEy9+ZpoMSsQYnsHnal2si07IuAjkvZv3PY624KgM7pxvJUiS4RZWMsuCW+Uhfr9I xvTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vvSpT44iiKNh3/EM/dLOqZouG1OldsyrOW/IuQXksdc=; b=ZwzAP+pbs/WZ395UHP3f2IJFjvJ3/OZgLNI1x79Goqd9ZcDKKMFX6a1VsxY3g2Fv0W 4Y4ex0pIdax5ra0ltbKo5RUF7mpOQuZJc6kMS50U1Xdc94e6k26u/AcdYsAYK7TqgxRm q6AoUVgXWP1eZrdb+pejXu0qMPvO6pwx4Lyh2V+3l285w9T1VqHRQzpzZAsGo9TDlXrf n/vXYgc7KCs6eADiTuSSZXeYuqLssuIwOy6TDL5FveldZZwYnK3lJKEvXDKKHWFDwckY aB4slgIsNJuF/BrgJKGye3pN21APtR92aMwnSvGkSKK4lqik/xpsTkuoPuPLb+oATrx+ 1CIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39n9FiQiizxg0iTr8snb1sYV+1BRPIdiJzNCNfaTmjzZGzP2La+VblR5u3iOdbhoGKS/ X-Received: by 10.84.238.139 with SMTP id v11mr10057052plk.143.1487164250920; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-Simon.local ([2001:470:b161:0:fcdc:545e:faf5:d790]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm7680202pgf.28.2017.02.15.05.10.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Feb 2017 05:10:50 -0800 (PST) From: Simon Perreault To: "tram@ietf.org" Message-ID: <14dbd987-5ddd-11ba-d6b9-59f2b31943c8@jive.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:10:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Spencer Dawkins Subject: [tram] Consensus on TURN server discovery X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:10:53 -0000 TRAMsters, The chairs jointly declare that this working group has reached consensus on TURN server discovery. The contents of draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12 accurately embody that consensus. We are henceforth sending this document to IESG for publication. In addition, we observe that no consensus has been reached for changing the STUN/TURN anycast mechanism from that defined in RFC 5766. Therefore that algorithm remains, and the additional guidelines in draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12 stand. Simon & Gonzalo From nobody Wed Feb 15 06:49:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE36129656; Wed, 15 Feb 2017 06:48:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.43.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148717013097.17257.14889174233451099322.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 06:48:50 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tram-chairs@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery@ietf.org, sperreault@jive.com, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com, The IESG , rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [tram] Protocol Action: 'TURN Server Auto Discovery' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 14:48:51 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'TURN Server Auto Discovery' (draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery-12.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the TURN Revised and Modernized Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Mirja Kühlewind and Spencer Dawkins. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turn-server-discovery/ Technical Summary The intent of this document is to define a procedure for TURN clients to discover servers available to them. In a nutshell the procedure tries, in order, local configuration, S-NAPTR lookup of the client's domain name (obtained from either DHCP or the application-layer identity), DNS-SD, and then a well-known anycast address as last resort. Working Group Summary The document was heavily discussed and reviewed, both in TRAM and externally in RTCWEB, by many participants. Much of the discussion revolved around security considerations. The resulting text represents consensus of all participants. Initial requirements for this work included discovery of network-provided servers in both enterprise and ISP settings. DHCP and DNS-SD are targeted at the enterprise setting while anycast is targeted at the ISP setting. DNS-SD was suggested by a browser maker as an alternative mechanism that is typically more easily usable than DHCP from a user-space application such as a web browser. Document Quality It is expected that WebRTC browsers will implement this specification. However, although RETURN and TURN-bis contain informative references pointing to this spec, it is not mandatory-to-implement for WebRTC. Personnel Document shepherd: Simon Perreault Responsible Area Director: Spencer Dawkins RFC Editor Note OLD Making STUN authentication optional is a downgrade of a MUST level requirement defined in [RFC5766]. The downgrade allows TURN servers provided by local or access network to accept Allocation requests from new and/or guest users in the network who do not necessarily possess long term credentials for STUN authentication. The intention, in such deployments, being to provide TURN services to all users in the local or access network. However, this opens up a TURN server to a variety of attacks described in Section 17 of [RFC5766]. A TURN server in such cases must be configured to only process STUN requests from the trusted local network or subscribers of the access network. Operational measures must be taken in order protect the TURN server; some of these measures include, but not limited to, access control by means of access-lists, firewalls, subscriber quota limits, ingress filtering etc. NEW Making STUN authentication optional is a downgrade of a MUST level requirement defined in [RFC5766]. The downgrade allows TURN servers provided by local or access network to accept Allocation requests from new and/or guest users in the network who do not necessarily possess long term credentials for STUN authentication. The intention, in such deployments, being to provide TURN services to all users in the local or access network. However, this opens up a TURN server to a variety of attacks described in Section 17 of [RFC5766]. A TURN server in such cases must be configured to only process STUN requests from the trusted local network or subscribers of the access network. Operational measures must be taken in order to protect the TURN server; some of these measures include, but not limited to, access control by means of access-lists, firewalls, subscriber quota limits, ingress filtering etc. From nobody Thu Feb 16 11:52:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24F8129695 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:52:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.109 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.109 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FswRP_e9Hd1y for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 664571296AA for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:18f8:2ca7:53c5:a4ab] (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:18f8:2ca7:53c5:a4ab]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE3FEAE7A5; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 20:52:15 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@tools.ietf.org" References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:52:57 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rGdLKL4ll4JDI1paNfCSorjAUEGiiCA5A" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:52:21 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --rGdLKL4ll4JDI1paNfCSorjAUEGiiCA5A Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="cjUs8Vtm4p5c1a37LApes5jKEan3g4cvc"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@tools.ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 References: In-Reply-To: --cjUs8Vtm4p5c1a37LApes5jKEan3g4cvc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brandon, Thanks again for the review, and sorry for the delay in responding. See my comments inline. A new version will be published in a few minutes= , please have a look too. Thanks. On 12/27/2016 11:27 AM, Brandon Williams wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Apologies for taking so long to complete a review of this one. >=20 > Although my list of notes is long, there's nothing really substantive h= ere. All of my comments are just suggestions to improve the document's cl= arity. Incorporate or discard as you see fit. >=20 > Please let me know if any of the following is unclear. >=20 > --Brandon >=20 >=20 > 1. Introduction >=20 > I find the second paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. Here's a > suggestion. >=20 > OLD: >=20 > This document only describes how probing mechanisms are implemented > with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN). The algorithm to > find the Path MTU is described in [RFC4821]. >=20 > NEW: >=20 > This document describes probing mechanisms for Session Traversal > Utilities for NAT (STUN) for use in implementing the Path MTU > Discovery algorithm described in [RFC4821]. Your text change a bit the meaning I was trying to convey in the original= text. What about something like the following text: New: Not all UDP-based implement the Path MTU discovery mechanism described in [RFC4821]. These protocols can make use of the probing mechanisms described in this document instead of designing their own adhoc extension. These probing mechanisms are implemented with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN), but their usage is not limited to STUN-based protocols. >=20 >=20 > I also find the fourth paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. >=20 > OLD: >=20 > Additional network characteristics like the network path (using the > STUN Traceroute mechanism described in > [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth availability (using the= > mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]) can > be discovered using complementary techniques. >=20 > NEW: >=20 > Complimentary techniques can be used to discover addition network > characteristics, such as the network path (using the STUN Traceroute > mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth > availability (using the mechanism described in > [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]). Done. >=20 > 2. Overview of Operations >=20 > In paragraph three, the first "it" in the paragraph should be expanded.= >=20 > OLD: ... then it initiates Probe transactions, ... >=20 > NEW: ... then the Client initiates Probe transacations, ... Done. >=20 >=20 > Same comment for the next paragraph. >=20 > OLD: ... then it sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... >=20 > NEW: ... then the Client sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... Done. >=20 >=20 > 4. Probing Mechanisms >=20 > In paragraph six, I think the SHOULD requirement about retransmissions > belongs in section 4.1.1, which already describes this requirement in > other terms ("the Rc parameter ... is set to 3."). This part of section= > 4 should stick to providing the MUST/MAY requirements for which of the > mechanisms are to be implemented. Sentence removed. >=20 > Additionally, I think that paragraph six could be moved to be text > for the currently empty section 4.1. Simple Probing Mechanism. In > that case, paragraphs 7-10 could be moved to be text for the > currently empty section 4.2. Complete Probing Mechanism. I think > moving the high-level descriptions of the two mechanisms into their > respective sections improves the document flow. Done. >=20 > Finally, in the last paragraph of the section, it states "... the > client adds a sequence number in front of each UDP packet sent." > I think you mean "... the client prepends the UDP data with a > header that provides a sequence number." At least, this is what the > description in the later section indicates to me. Done. >=20 >=20 > 4.1.1. Sending a Probe Request >=20 > This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a Probe > Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. Done, using your preference. >=20 > Regarding authentication, why would an implementation authenticate > the Probe transaction? Is doing so recommended? If so, why? This is > discussed later in security considerations, but it was unclear to me at= this point in the document. Rewrote the text with a bit more explanations. >=20 > Regarding the FINGERPRINT attribute, why is it required? The STUN messages need to be sent together with the packets of the the ot= her protocol, which can be anything, so the FINGERPRINT helps differentia= te STUN packets. >=20 >=20 > 4.1.2. Receiving a Probe Request >=20 > Here again, why is the FINGERPRINT attribute required? See above. >=20 >=20 > 4.1.3. Receiving a Probe Response >=20 > OLD: If the Probe transactions times out ... >=20 > NEW: If the Probe transaction times out ... Done. >=20 >=20 > 4.2.1. Sending the Probe Indications and Report Request >=20 > Why MUST the Probe Indication be authenticated, when this is not > required (only allowed) for a Probe Request? Here again, it's discussed= later, but was unclear to me here. Same than above, clarified the text. >=20 > Also, same question as above about FINGERPRINT here. See above. >=20 > This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a > Report Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. > Done, using your preference. =20 >=20 > 4.2.3. Receiving a Probe Indication and Report Request >=20 > I suggest that you forward reference the section that describes > construction of the IDENTIFIERS attribute in the last paragraph. Done. >=20 >=20 > 4.2.4. Receiving a Report Response >=20 > The description of Probe Failure is a bit incomplete. It should > include a little more detail. >=20 > OLD: >=20 > If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report > Response, this is interpreted as a Probe Failure, as defined in > [RFC4821] Section 7.5. >=20 > NEW: >=20 > If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report > Response but identifiers for other packets sent before or after > the Probe Indication can all be found, this is interpreted as a > Probe Failure as defined in [RFC4821] Section 7.5. Done. >=20 >=20 > 4.2.5. Using Checksums as Packet Identifiers >=20 > The second paragraph states "The algorithm used to calculate the > checksum is the same as the algorithm used for the FINGERPRINT > attribute." I find this description a bit unclear, since the > description of the FINGERPRINT calculation in RFC5389 discusses > the STUN header fields, etc. Here, you're just talking about > generating a CRC-32 value XORed with 0x5354554e. It might be > more clear to just say that. Done. >=20 >=20 > 5.2. Implicit Probe Support Signaling Mechanism >=20 > I'm a little concerned about the idea of just injecting probes > as a way to figure out whether the receiver supports them. It's > hard to know for every possible protocol that this will work and > will not break the protocol. Maybe add a cautionary note. No, the idea is not to inject probes to detect support. Here we know tha= t the receiver will support receiving probes, because it acted as a probe= sender. The sender of a probe implicitly signals that it can itself rec= eive and process probes. Section 4 states that all implementations of this specification MUST impl= ement the server side of both probing mechanisms, and this is how the imp= licit signaling mechanism can work. >=20 >=20 > 6.1. IDENTIFIERS >=20 > Sections 4.2.5. and 4.2.6. each describe 32 bit identifiers. I > think section 6.1. should say a little more than just "contents > are opaque". I suggest that you describe specifically what the > attribute value will look like if one of the two 32 bit schemes > is used and declare that other protocols may generate different > values. >=20 All right, that was the difficult part. When trying to do what you sugge= sted, I discovered that there was no mechanism to put the Probe packets i= n the list in the IDENTIFIERS attribute. So the text in both section was= rewritten to add that possibility. The sections also contain the descri= ption of the content of the IDENTIFIERS attribute. >=20 > 6.2. PMTUD-SUPPORTED >=20 > For clarity, I suggest something a little more like the value > description of DONT-FRAGMENT from RFC5766. >=20 > OLD: This attribute is empty. >=20 > NEW: >=20 > This attribute has no value part and thus the attribute > length field is 0. >=20 Done. --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --cjUs8Vtm4p5c1a37LApes5jKEan3g4cvc-- --rGdLKL4ll4JDI1paNfCSorjAUEGiiCA5A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAlimAxkACgkQKcRFldZq fsS0gw//Vh0dEa0pZdpWiUfoGdhgXBVROOibzq1inN+7qR7nZTVY2EqEW/4DfVTN CQ8qgkl954IT4csE8YYQxXRRPrqQXOLvUM79Ui7I4/SWcIcj08zalM3bf4b1zScj yKhZ3GSdCO8fKqUY8N8u6+W+mVIE+J0Xd2fsY+grg9u8sd7hGRZTSQToCoc/ZCnZ 0nabTAiJqeOkt9Q8RJ/Q5GsoRw+veyijXcUCn+8KYXfEiWx277yYWJyxvmRnoep0 4zIjeX6fe2+L8xQ0Rxo4vRLvoBoW0Q3aXDaSUXriOzgz0/NL3NL4Y0Ul4hn0BJdk gEpN9APrERNrUOdeWNf04c+Wpp7RRQzZpsiA35h1DpbhXpltn1WbPMOqeQpgRG23 Rvq6VwuMUnnv8tcSDwqLqs5a7ZHYc5QVneqmdxYsaeZwqUQiqABNfUldAYZglKJS Fq34XeYgCFx67REVqhZyUbXfe8roWBNdc93lpMyOQcG/P2EmkLAHP9xJHSR90JKK /4ufKRlPBbkQRM4vCJ/E19NY9Q2oIJZSdouTyoL71Cgsq5pAeyfnlugkGFYs+Frj 69g4EeMV5O+SA6uYkPF3arwZ5N06iujJx2df9YFaj7bYUw+f40dhYiHjUPKuRdTn 7miO5RiMo1G/IFp6l9AkeJZi3AIHzvXB14+tyCh1qOEyN4tkgzs= =G7JZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rGdLKL4ll4JDI1paNfCSorjAUEGiiCA5A-- From nobody Thu Feb 16 11:58:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76CE1294A5; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:58:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.44.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148727508074.1019.774102112223232320.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 11:58:00 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-04.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:58:01 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. Title : Path MTU Discovery Using Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Marc Petit-Huguenin Gonzalo Salgueiro Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-04.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2017-02-16 Abstract: This document describes a Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Usage for Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) between a client and a server. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Johansson" Thread-Topic: [tram] STUNBIS: Retransmissions over TCP Thread-Index: AQHR5x96E5OizcqlBUyxOyz8Tq01jKAq8rIAgAALZACAATb4AIFBvbCA Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 23:41:34 +0000 Message-ID: <7BC4EF87-256E-43BD-A21A-BE28EB954F0D@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.51.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7BC4EF87256E43BDA21ABE28EB954F0Dciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Simon Perreault , Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] STUNBIS: Retransmissions over TCP X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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Johansson" Thread-Topic: [tram] STUNBIS: TLS verification Thread-Index: AQHR5wut3ujlwI9bOEaLKCWMaHxfkqAqs3AAgAAC94CBQ2PSAA== Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 02:02:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3B69F8CE-4094-44A9-9D33-6879A089A859@edvina.net> <5540FAAA-4C4E-47AB-9F7B-16AB4B39360E@edvina.net> In-Reply-To: <5540FAAA-4C4E-47AB-9F7B-16AB4B39360E@edvina.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.51.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3EBBA4E8DDA40F5AFB0D76DBDC9D3D2ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Martin Thomson , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] STUNBIS: TLS verification X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sn7SHIXPasrb for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:45:216:3eff:fe7f:7abd]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE2351297E4 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:18f8:2ca7:53c5:a4ab] (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:18f8:2ca7:53c5:a4ab]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E62CBAE7A7; Fri, 17 Feb 2017 03:17:20 +0100 (CET) To: Brandon Williams , Marc Petit-Huguenin , "tram@ietf.org" References: <28ad59e9-cc50-71b5-df23-08bb8f827889@petit-huguenin.org> <9f33ec07-b495-0e36-e796-1d4416079944@akamai.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Message-ID: <2e7e195b-0286-1cc5-a716-1c8b1589f8b1@acm.org> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 18:17:54 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9f33ec07-b495-0e36-e796-1d4416079944@akamai.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TcqQoQsuhHkLgKN27GT3wMW3v9denq6w8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] More issues with RFC 5389 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 02:17:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --TcqQoQsuhHkLgKN27GT3wMW3v9denq6w8 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="20MK6LmBMSvjU4Nu4P9goHKAm6Q5ihgbD"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Brandon Williams , Marc Petit-Huguenin , "tram@ietf.org" Message-ID: <2e7e195b-0286-1cc5-a716-1c8b1589f8b1@acm.org> Subject: Re: [tram] More issues with RFC 5389 References: <28ad59e9-cc50-71b5-df23-08bb8f827889@petit-huguenin.org> <9f33ec07-b495-0e36-e796-1d4416079944@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <9f33ec07-b495-0e36-e796-1d4416079944@akamai.com> --20MK6LmBMSvjU4Nu4P9goHKAm6Q5ihgbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brandon, On 12/28/2016 12:21 PM, Brandon Williams wrote: > Hi Marc, >=20 > All of this looks good to me, with one exception. >=20 > For your #4 (allowing 401 when both NONE and MI are bad), I think your = proposal might increase the cost of a bad-nonce flood by requiring both N= ONCE and MI validation on every packet. The additional load is minimal, a= s you indicate, but only when the transaction with the bad NONCE is other= wise legitimate. Although the old text required two transactions if both = the NONCE and the password are invalid, I think that condition is expecte= d to be rare, so solving for it isn't worth it if it increases the cost o= f a flood attack. >=20 > WDYT? Am I missing something else in the validation flow that will miti= gate against this risk? Or do you think the cost of the symmetric auth is= small enough that we shouldn't be concerned? In my opinion the proposal has a minimal impact. If others have a differ= ent opinion, please let s know. Thanks. >=20 > Thanks, > --Brandon >=20 > On 11/27/2016 08:12 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> Following the discovery of several issues in the Long-Term Credential = Mechanism (LTCM) section of stunbis, back in Berlin, we decided to postpo= ne fixing them until we could do a better protocol analysis. During that= protocol analysis it become clear that some of these issues were not in = fact issues in the text we modified in stunbis, but issues in the origina= l 5389 RFC. >> >> So this email is be listing what we found, and our proposals to fix th= ese. Note that this email does not take in account the integration of th= ese fixes with the new features of stunbis (MI2, anonymity, passwords alg= orithms), or fixes for issues that only exist in stunbis. >> >> The authors would like to thank Jonathan Lennox with his help in evalu= ating these issues. >> >> >> 1. In both section 10.1.3 and section 10.2.3, the text says "If the va= lue does not match, or if MESSAGE-INTEGRITY was absent, the response MUST= be discarded, as if it was never received. This means that retransmits,= if applicable, will continue." The issue there is that when the respons= e is discarded but the transaction layer is for a reliable transport as d= escribed in section 7.2.2, then the transaction has no way to ever succee= d, as there is no retransmissions in that case, and the transaction will = simply timeout after 39.5 seconds. That seems wrong to wait nearly 40 se= cs to return an answer that we already know about. >> >> Our proposal is to send immediately an "attack error" back to the uppe= r layers on receiving an invalid or missing M-I on reliable transactions.= This is equivalent of what is happening today, but without having to wa= it 40 seconds for that. The attack error is a signal similar to the time= out error, in that it does not carry any other information. It is intern= al to the implementation, so it does not require a Error Code, in the sam= e way that the timeout signal does not have an Error Code. >> >> Unreliable transactions could also use a similar signal in case these = transactions fail not because no packet was ever received but because all= of them where discarded. In that case, the "attack error" signal is sen= t after the normal timeout. >> >> >> 2. In section 10.2.3 there is no provision for processing a 400 respon= se that does not have a valid MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute. That means th= at if the text is implemented as it is written (which I am sure is not), = receiving an unauthenticated 400 (as triggered by bullet 2 of 10.2.2) wil= l trigger the discarding packet rule on the last paragraph of 10.2.3 and = will take 40 seconds to timeout. >> >> Our proposal is to just add text between the 2nd and 3rd paragraph of = 12.2.3 to explain that receiving a unauthenticated 400 will cause a timeo= ut. >> >> >> 3. Section 10.2.1.1 states that a first request SHOULD omit the USERNA= ME, MESSAGE-INTEGRITY, REAL and NONCE, but inserting these attribute will= in fact make the first request a subsequent request. Conversely Section= 10.2.1.2 states a subsequent request SHOULD include a USERNAME, MESSAGE-= INTEGRITY, REAL and NONCE, but omitting them will in fact make the subseq= uent request a first request. >> >> Our proposal is to say MUST omit in 10.2.1.1 and MUST include in 10.2.= 1.2, and add new text to explain the logic. >> >> >> 4. The (simplified) order of processing in Section 10.2.2 is to proces= s 438 (Nonce stale) first (bullet 3) and then password invalid (bullet 5)= =2E If a server changes the password and the nonce at the same time, the= n 3 transactions are needed to recover. >> >> Our proposal is to change bullet 3 to say that if the nonce is invalid= and the Message-Integrity is wrong (showing that the password also chang= ed), then a 401 must be returned instead of a 438. The new nonce is sent= in the 401, so the session recovers in one additional transaction instea= d of 2. The additional message-integrity validation needed for this is m= inimal (with TURN, the NONCE should be expired at least once each hour. = Allocations have a default lifetime of 10 minutes, 5 minutes for permissi= ons/channel bindings. So if we have 3 permissions - which seems the mini= mum with ICE - that means a maximum of 2.4% of the transactions will have= an expired nonce and will require an additional verification of the M-I)= =2E >> >> >> 5. When a 438 is returned, it says that no MESSAGE-INTEGRITY is return= ed. But in fact the server could use the previous nonce to generate a va= lid MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and protect the response. Note that there is not r= eally a lot of advantages for doing this, excepted that in STUNbis it wil= l permit to not have to return the PASSWORD-ALGORIHMS attribute in that c= ase in the response to protect against MiTM attacks (if we go with the id= ea that the password algorithm list can be changed during a session, whic= h is a separate issue). >> >> Our proposal is to say that 438 response MAY contain a MESSAGE-INTEGRI= TY attribute that reuses the previous nonce. >> >> >> 6. Same issue than before, but when the password changes. Instead of = not signing the 401 in bullet 5, it can be signed using the previous pass= word. >> >> Our proposal is to say that the 401 response in that case MAY contain = a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute that reuses the previous password, i.e. if = the server remembers it. >> >> >> 7. In section 15.6, it says "401 Unauthorized". It should really be "= 401 Unauthenticated". The concern here is that some higher level protoco= l overloads the real meaning of 401 and returns a 401 when something is n= ot authorized at this level and so messes with the Long Term Credential M= echanism. Note that TURN got that right by using a 403 to mean Unauthori= zed, but other STUN Usages can get this wrong. >> >> Our proposal is to change the text from "Unauthorized" to "Unauthentic= ated=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> 8. Bullets 2 and 4 of Section 10.2.2 says that the response SHOULD NOT= contain a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute, but even if the application wante= d to, there is no possible way to generate a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY in these c= ases (for bullet 2 either USERNAME, REALM or NONCE are missing, and for b= ullet 4 the USERNAME is invalid). >> >> Our proposal is to remove MESSAGE-INTEGRITY in these two paragraphs, a= nd to add some informative text saying that the message cannot contain ME= SSAGE-INTEGRITY, because necessary fields are missing. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 --20MK6LmBMSvjU4Nu4P9goHKAm6Q5ihgbD-- --TcqQoQsuhHkLgKN27GT3wMW3v9denq6w8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAlimXVMACgkQKcRFldZq fsRc2xAAjsiOnBMJQFRl+iaQTXzJzkVR5kq/CRSbIF62R/w6H/+8CmRPS25S7q56 rvfNiW//Siulo3cjR9xINMrVWyxWZnn60SdFdzvY435OlokjHi5WNejuzb5TwKAW iRdYtk2n7t49PlSH+eaWFWM3aJXY4DT+XcPrB/MIy908TRYxpLAiwnrCKlGUhmID sDeQESzLjlUWzqbBjneezTsiKH7xW6JZ+9yfwczdWgu3iaMwJoKXsL5QxYeBLTUR bh0zwPEG6E+12LLs1ycVzOV2Rey8Z1BJu9YRdOpcDClOVJBrrRx9Ya+JFs7hpoMm MX7QGzKXOVv+Anxd4aBIC1Cfb1EGnyM1506OMbiR7do20AgL6abgrtGsMY0wSIUf IHRKY9lSwbXXJx6Sc528veQ1SiRa7saZlURhAkTEAc/OG6GFZhFV/NTlLlB+nLML h8cs5AtFCnpAyDLKrgHm0HWoCodVqsaVcULnYyGndRDq7JEck3TrKILbrYPi36Hx cTy5z5iiK50s/neEYGHmzThcqsIePp8EmoQxdUo3s8vwqavZhtgeraCwPfy81LHW xegocou+O6b0uEqjTF/2+uvDQE9ixuBc1xD3eKHkq4EuLqLJ/1Dm14IsSvd6ANS0 5u0G6DLHi5s9UuT5wpwNhdyAuhJPUlFS8x/0dKzVTXq1JT9D2/0= =tyAC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TcqQoQsuhHkLgKN27GT3wMW3v9denq6w8-- From nobody Thu Feb 16 19:18:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797EC129857; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:18:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.44.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148730150149.21917.17317005789001817478.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:18:21 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 03:18:21 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. Title : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Marc Petit-Huguenin Gonzalo Salgueiro Jonathan Rosenberg Dan Wing Rohan Mahy Philip Matthews Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2017-02-16 Abstract: Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) is a protocol that serves as a tool for other protocols in dealing with Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal. It can be used by an endpoint to determine the IP address and port allocated to it by a NAT. It can also be used to check connectivity between two endpoints, and as a keep-alive protocol to maintain NAT bindings. STUN works with many existing NATs, and does not require any special behavior from them. STUN is not a NAT traversal solution by itself. Rather, it is a tool to be used in the context of a NAT traversal solution. This document obsoletes RFC 5389. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Feb 16 19:25:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015EB12987F for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:25:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aVQviha-CXhm for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFCF7129872 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 19:25:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9792; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1487301946; x=1488511546; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=Jqlz0y4dhgpmuNqqWd6VrtJrwpqCNyA3sMhpusZE3hg=; b=a96qAPJ1t0rUXa0Gqa/zPr91OAM83C6linT24F9b9XjhGdRIf/1sU5nT CfogPinpr1Y9V6zwDyH2G1wrK0V5YQsvGfRq5Pf2bXh5Jzb74iheviCY+ COOb5ZQzHpT5DQNL8I7rItD4u/nbf1e2W09GeyZrraJy/5Q8Idi2jpccN s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A0AgB8bKZY/5xdJa1eGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgm9iYYEJB41akXGQJ4UsggwfAQqFeAKCED8YAQIBAQEBAQEBYii?= =?us-ascii?q?EcQIEAQFsGwIBCD8HJwsUEQIEExuJUQ6ycItZAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBHYZMggUIgmKDF4RxgjEFlV2GIwGGb4MhiAeBe1OERIl2kxsBHziBAFEVGCU?= =?us-ascii?q?RAYQxIIFhdYlegQ0BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.35,170,1484006400"; d="scan'208,217";a="209603465" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Feb 2017 03:25:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v1H3PjYo016449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 17 Feb 2017 03:25:46 GMT Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 21:25:45 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 16 Feb 2017 21:25:45 -0600 From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" To: tram mailing list Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHSiMyBzFIlxzFrFUWHbRmb/eM0YqFs7gcA Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 03:25:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148730150149.21917.17317005789001817478.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148730150149.21917.17317005789001817478.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.51.16] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C46BE22819694F82860B5C18D4E221CBciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2017 03:25:49 -0000 --_000_C46BE22819694F82860B5C18D4E221CBciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TRAMsters - We have published a new version of STUNbis. The following changes have bee= n made: o Removed the reserved value in the security registry, as it does not make sense in a bitset. o Updated change list. o Updated the minimum trancation size for M-I-256 to 16 bytes. o Changed the truncation order to match RFC 7518. o Fixed bugs in truncation boundary text. o Stated that STUN Usages have to explicitly state that they can use truncation. o Removed truncation from the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attrbute. o Add reference to C code in RFC 1952. o Replaced RFC 2818 reference to R= FC 6125. As always, we welcome any review comments. Thanks, Gonzalo On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:18 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. Title : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Marc Petit-Huguenin Gonzalo Salgueiro Jonathan Rosenberg Dan Wing Rohan Mahy Philip Matthews Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2017-02-16 Abstract: Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) is a protocol that serves as a tool for other protocols in dealing with Network Address Translator (NAT) traversal. It can be used by an endpoint to determine the IP address and port allocated to it by a NAT. It can also be used to check connectivity between two endpoints, and as a keep-alive protocol to maintain NAT bindings. STUN works with many existing NATs, and does not require any special behavior from them. STUN is not a NAT traversal solution by itself. Rather, it is a tool to be used in the context of a NAT traversal solution. This document obsoletes RFC 5389. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ tram mailing list tram@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram --_000_C46BE22819694F82860B5C18D4E221CBciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <73161CAC3107E9468C57C452E00694B9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
TRAMsters -
We have published a new version of STUNbis.  =
The following changes have been made:
   o  Removed the reserved value in the security registr=
y, as it does
      not make sense in a bitset.

   o  Updated change list.

   o  Updated the minimum trancation size for M-I-256 to 16 bytes.

   o  Changed the truncation order to match RFC 7518.

   o  Fixed bugs in truncation boundary text.

   o  Stated that STUN Usages have to explicitly state that they can use
      truncation.

   o  Removed truncation from the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attrbute.

   o  Add reference to C code in RFC 1952.

   o  Replaced R=
FC 2818 reference to RFC 6125.

As always, we welcome any review comments.
Thanks,
Gonzalo



On Feb 16, 2017, at 7:18 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF.
       Title     &nb= sp;     : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STU= N)
       Authors     &= nbsp;   : Marc Petit-Huguenin
            &nb= sp;            = Gonzalo Salgueiro
            &nb= sp;            = Jonathan Rosenberg
            &nb= sp;            = Dan Wing
            &nb= sp;            = Rohan Mahy
            &nb= sp;            = Philip Matthews
Filename &n= bsp;      : draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10.txt Pages  = ;         : 66
Date  =           : 2017-02-16
Abstract:
  Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) is a protocol that s= erves
  as a tool for other protocols in dealing with Network Address   Translator (NAT) traversal.  It can be used by an endpoint= to
  determine the IP address and port allocated to it by a NAT. &nb= sp;It can
  also be used to check connectivity between two endpoints, and a= s a
  keep-alive protocol to maintain NAT bindings.  STUN works = with many
  existing NATs, and does not require any special behavior from t= hem.

  STUN is not a NAT traversal solution by itself.  Rather, i= t is a tool
  to be used in the context of a NAT traversal solution.

  This document obsoletes RFC 5389.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-stunbis-10


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

--_000_C46BE22819694F82860B5C18D4E221CBciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Feb 20 09:27:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE8A7129532 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VvQ1oCjwAJcI for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com [96.6.114.112]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76453129408 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0566E20001A; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:27:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com [172.27.22.68]) by prod-mail-xrelay08.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E335D200010; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:27:55 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1487611675; bh=bBqykn2hHFde7mQyV8GVl71BRmg7reeVvHv9RSUJBWw=; l=11884; h=To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=EPzBK2Wk2qmZ9hWlS4tDV957bS/FdiHgmpN9U7nin1fs/zW3zO7AT7p8UYZKQLh0V qMqDxHMc64yoy5ecwTJ6OxeidN0ixScZ+LcqAvmFnE+G6Arlh7hB1MV707ML+M4tuO yXA/v2x8MydI1jr4R/FOy3Z34z5mqH3VCpuyEXeA= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay09.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5F11E080; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:27:55 +0000 (GMT) To: Marc Petit-Huguenin , "tram@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@tools.ietf.org" References: From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <2a6ae451-739f-3d96-d371-0c92a693cfbd@akamai.com> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 12:27:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:27:57 -0000 Hi Marc, Thanks. It looks like most of my comments are resolved. After re-reading, I've still got a few comments, at least one of which I see that I missed on the previous pass. My new comments are below. Nothing is in-line. Let me know if anything is unclear. --Brandon Section 4 I suggest moving the first paragraph "A client MUST NOT ..." to section 4.1.1, since it's about forming/sending a message. Seems like it would be a good last paragraph in that section. Section 4.1.1 para 2 s/transctaion/transaction/ Section 4.1.1 para 3 My question about FINGERPRINT was meant to indicate that the text should say why it's needed. I see you've added that explanation elsewhere. Maybe add the same here too. Section 4.2.1 para 1 s/The server/The client/ Section 4.2.5 I still find "the same as" in para 1 confusing here since it's not applied to any header fields. Maybe "similar to"? Also, I found para 2 a little difficult to read. How about: For each STUN Probe Indication or Request, the server retrieves the STUN FINGERPRINT value. For all other packets, the server calculates the checksum as described above. It puts these FINGERPRINT and checksum values in a chronologically ordered list that is sent back in the Report Response. Section 5.2 I'm still uncertain about this section. The receiver behavior makes sense, but that's not really what I was questioning. It's not clear what you intend for the original probe sender whose support for PMTUD is being assumed by the receiver. How did that first machine know that it was safe to send its probe? This section seems to imply that it injects probes as a way to tell the receiver that it supports the protocol, though you're right, it doesn't actually say that so I think I just misunderstood your intention. So, how does a machine that doesn't know whether the receiver supports the PMTUD protocol know whether it's safe to send a probe when it hasn't received one from the other party? Is the idea that one side or the other must receive this information via signaling or some other means? I see the paragraph in section 4 that I previously missed which states the client MUST NOT send if it doesn't know the other party supports it. Maybe section 5.2 could say something like "In cases where only one endpoint (the initial client) knows that its peer endpoint (the initial server) supports PMTUD, the initial client sends a Probe Request or Indication to the initial server." That seems a little clunky, but I think you'll get the point of my suggestion. Section 6.1 para 2 Maybe you could indicate that section 4.2.5 and 4.2.6 describe two methods for acquiring and formatting the identifiers that could be used for this purpose. It's clear to me that this is the case, but the current text seems to imply that no options are provided by this document. On 02/16/2017 02:52 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > Hi Brandon, > > Thanks again for the review, and sorry for the delay in responding. > > See my comments inline. A new version will be published in a few minutes, please have a look too. > > Thanks. > > On 12/27/2016 11:27 AM, Brandon Williams wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Apologies for taking so long to complete a review of this one. >> >> Although my list of notes is long, there's nothing really substantive here. All of my comments are just suggestions to improve the document's clarity. Incorporate or discard as you see fit. >> >> Please let me know if any of the following is unclear. >> >> --Brandon >> >> >> 1. Introduction >> >> I find the second paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. Here's a >> suggestion. >> >> OLD: >> >> This document only describes how probing mechanisms are implemented >> with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN). The algorithm to >> find the Path MTU is described in [RFC4821]. >> >> NEW: >> >> This document describes probing mechanisms for Session Traversal >> Utilities for NAT (STUN) for use in implementing the Path MTU >> Discovery algorithm described in [RFC4821]. > > Your text change a bit the meaning I was trying to convey in the original text. What about something like the following text: > > New: > > Not all UDP-based implement the Path > MTU discovery mechanism described in [RFC4821]. These protocols can > make use of the probing mechanisms described in this document instead > of designing their own adhoc extension. These probing mechanisms are > implemented with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN), but > their usage is not limited to STUN-based protocols. > >> >> >> I also find the fourth paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. >> >> OLD: >> >> Additional network characteristics like the network path (using the >> STUN Traceroute mechanism described in >> [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth availability (using the >> mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]) can >> be discovered using complementary techniques. >> >> NEW: >> >> Complimentary techniques can be used to discover addition network >> characteristics, such as the network path (using the STUN Traceroute >> mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth >> availability (using the mechanism described in >> [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]). > > Done. > >> >> 2. Overview of Operations >> >> In paragraph three, the first "it" in the paragraph should be expanded. >> >> OLD: ... then it initiates Probe transactions, ... >> >> NEW: ... then the Client initiates Probe transacations, ... > > Done. > >> >> >> Same comment for the next paragraph. >> >> OLD: ... then it sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... >> >> NEW: ... then the Client sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... > > Done. > >> >> >> 4. Probing Mechanisms >> >> In paragraph six, I think the SHOULD requirement about retransmissions >> belongs in section 4.1.1, which already describes this requirement in >> other terms ("the Rc parameter ... is set to 3."). This part of section >> 4 should stick to providing the MUST/MAY requirements for which of the >> mechanisms are to be implemented. > > Sentence removed. > >> >> Additionally, I think that paragraph six could be moved to be text >> for the currently empty section 4.1. Simple Probing Mechanism. In >> that case, paragraphs 7-10 could be moved to be text for the >> currently empty section 4.2. Complete Probing Mechanism. I think >> moving the high-level descriptions of the two mechanisms into their >> respective sections improves the document flow. > > Done. > >> >> Finally, in the last paragraph of the section, it states "... the >> client adds a sequence number in front of each UDP packet sent." >> I think you mean "... the client prepends the UDP data with a >> header that provides a sequence number." At least, this is what the >> description in the later section indicates to me. > > Done. > >> >> >> 4.1.1. Sending a Probe Request >> >> This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a Probe >> Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. > > Done, using your preference. > >> >> Regarding authentication, why would an implementation authenticate >> the Probe transaction? Is doing so recommended? If so, why? This is >> discussed later in security considerations, but it was unclear to me at this point in the document. > > Rewrote the text with a bit more explanations. > >> >> Regarding the FINGERPRINT attribute, why is it required? > > The STUN messages need to be sent together with the packets of the the other protocol, which can be anything, so the FINGERPRINT helps differentiate STUN packets. > >> >> >> 4.1.2. Receiving a Probe Request >> >> Here again, why is the FINGERPRINT attribute required? > > See above. > >> >> >> 4.1.3. Receiving a Probe Response >> >> OLD: If the Probe transactions times out ... >> >> NEW: If the Probe transaction times out ... > > Done. > >> >> >> 4.2.1. Sending the Probe Indications and Report Request >> >> Why MUST the Probe Indication be authenticated, when this is not >> required (only allowed) for a Probe Request? Here again, it's discussed later, but was unclear to me here. > > Same than above, clarified the text. > >> >> Also, same question as above about FINGERPRINT here. > > See above. > >> >> This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a >> Report Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. >> > > Done, using your preference. > >> >> 4.2.3. Receiving a Probe Indication and Report Request >> >> I suggest that you forward reference the section that describes >> construction of the IDENTIFIERS attribute in the last paragraph. > > Done. > >> >> >> 4.2.4. Receiving a Report Response >> >> The description of Probe Failure is a bit incomplete. It should >> include a little more detail. >> >> OLD: >> >> If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report >> Response, this is interpreted as a Probe Failure, as defined in >> [RFC4821] Section 7.5. >> >> NEW: >> >> If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report >> Response but identifiers for other packets sent before or after >> the Probe Indication can all be found, this is interpreted as a >> Probe Failure as defined in [RFC4821] Section 7.5. > > Done. > >> >> >> 4.2.5. Using Checksums as Packet Identifiers >> >> The second paragraph states "The algorithm used to calculate the >> checksum is the same as the algorithm used for the FINGERPRINT >> attribute." I find this description a bit unclear, since the >> description of the FINGERPRINT calculation in RFC5389 discusses >> the STUN header fields, etc. Here, you're just talking about >> generating a CRC-32 value XORed with 0x5354554e. It might be >> more clear to just say that. > > Done. > >> >> >> 5.2. Implicit Probe Support Signaling Mechanism >> >> I'm a little concerned about the idea of just injecting probes >> as a way to figure out whether the receiver supports them. It's >> hard to know for every possible protocol that this will work and >> will not break the protocol. Maybe add a cautionary note. > > No, the idea is not to inject probes to detect support. Here we know that the receiver will support receiving probes, because it acted as a probe sender. The sender of a probe implicitly signals that it can itself receive and process probes. > > Section 4 states that all implementations of this specification MUST implement the server side of both probing mechanisms, and this is how the implicit signaling mechanism can work. > >> >> >> 6.1. IDENTIFIERS >> >> Sections 4.2.5. and 4.2.6. each describe 32 bit identifiers. I >> think section 6.1. should say a little more than just "contents >> are opaque". I suggest that you describe specifically what the >> attribute value will look like if one of the two 32 bit schemes >> is used and declare that other protocols may generate different >> values. >> > > All right, that was the difficult part. When trying to do what you suggested, I discovered that there was no mechanism to put the Probe packets in the list in the IDENTIFIERS attribute. So the text in both section was rewritten to add that possibility. The sections also contain the description of the content of the IDENTIFIERS attribute. > >> >> 6.2. PMTUD-SUPPORTED >> >> For clarity, I suggest something a little more like the value >> description of DONT-FRAGMENT from RFC5766. >> >> OLD: This attribute is empty. >> >> NEW: >> >> This attribute has no value part and thus the attribute >> length field is 0. >> > > Done. > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Mon Feb 20 11:13:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36253129443; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:13:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.44.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148761798221.25964.15624485622063917409.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:13:02 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: tram@ietf.org Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-05.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 19:13:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized of the IETF. Title : Path MTU Discovery Using Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Marc Petit-Huguenin Gonzalo Salgueiro Filename : draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-05.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2017-02-20 Abstract: This document describes a Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Usage for Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) between a client and a server. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Feb 20 11:17:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4441296DC for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:17:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0wztV3KVLEk for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A3711296DA for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:17:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=90536; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1487618238; x=1488827838; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jWlMb7eH5ANdvgiwf0aT7uQpStCFn+tX08fg76CR2fA=; b=NWsDpjRGXYYYFTj4QzC19NWMzZRFfHiRqvUp+f9Vywxxw2SC2EcCSw71 ECp7C9MxLGVr1/80IAIDRvsDvs14DgyCqK4UU8FNS0Ji6R8WaFgUcWyxv tpbdmcxh5D9ob3rVVoTWUqL8/bQ2b47j7fNxz3h7rXLxMt4x/n5BJSRej k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CaAQB/QKtY/5ldJa1eGQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBBwEBAQEBgm85KWGBCQeDVIoIp0qCCQMfAQqFeAIagjQ/GAECAQEBAQEBAWI?= =?us-ascii?q?ohHECBAEBGAlLCxACAQg4AQYDAgICJQsUEQIEDgWJbw6teYImi1QBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYBYZMggWCaoQwDi2Cby6CMQWVXoYmAZIcgXuFF4NQhii?= =?us-ascii?q?PB4QaAR84gQBTFT4RAYQ4HYFhdYhUgTCBDQEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.35,187,1484006400"; d="scan'208,217";a="387160721" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Feb 2017 19:17:17 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (xch-rcd-007.cisco.com [173.37.102.17]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v1KJHGYg024201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Feb 2017 19:17:17 GMT Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) by XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (173.37.102.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:17:16 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com ([173.36.7.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:17:16 -0600 From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" To: Brandon Williams Thread-Topic: [tram] Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 Thread-Index: AQHSi562xm+h9eSKVEaps8DyETEBQaFyqTuA Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 19:17:16 +0000 Message-ID: <8E88169F-1BF3-4B31-872B-F12C4CFB7A9A@cisco.com> References: <2a6ae451-739f-3d96-d371-0c92a693cfbd@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <2a6ae451-739f-3d96-d371-0c92a693cfbd@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.85.232] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8E88169F1BF34B31872BF12C4CFB7A9Aciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@tools.ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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aWduOiBzdGFydDsgdGV4dC1pbmRlbnQ6IDBweDsgdGV4dC10cmFuc2Zvcm06IG5vbmU7IHdoaXRl LXNwYWNlOiBub3JtYWw7IHdpZG93czogYXV0bzsgd29yZC1zcGFjaW5nOiAwcHg7IC13ZWJraXQt dGV4dC1zaXplLWFkanVzdDogYXV0bzsgLXdlYmtpdC10ZXh0LXN0cm9rZS13aWR0aDogMHB4OyIg Y2xhc3M9IiI+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90cmFtPC9hPjwv ZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8YnIgY2xhc3M9IiI+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9k eT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_8E88169F1BF34B31872BF12C4CFB7A9Aciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Feb 20 14:59:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03E112940A for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:59:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rThfNbcBJhN4 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com [23.79.238.175]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC653129415 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.imss70 (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0BC433404; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:59:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com [172.27.118.250]) by prod-mail-xrelay07.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB164433403; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:59:24 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; s=a1; t=1487631564; bh=tImD3ydFz93wecwuz5/WMnQTrrqgG0z9X2ErCs2+nL4=; l=14169; h=To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CXBLvkE4FGGNbklSZZCitwIbxOoJkI0gh/9Wx82wDKs14ki0hWiUv2P9E1kKPLEJR y94tCBAo4hon0Qx1riIKIQgFD9i+AWHbhbqI1eGwrbvNwUTghvwzMtSTBOjZwrfJaS SnzApzOqw9MiFqCFJA+PHkS9E9oMinDeJed+9RvU= Received: from [172.28.118.196] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.118.196]) by prod-mail-relay11.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43011FC88; Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:59:24 +0000 (GMT) To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" References: <2a6ae451-739f-3d96-d371-0c92a693cfbd@akamai.com> <8E88169F-1BF3-4B31-872B-F12C4CFB7A9A@cisco.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <81b2148e-7afc-3325-4cab-3d7eefc35e4a@akamai.com> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:59:24 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8E88169F-1BF3-4B31-872B-F12C4CFB7A9A@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@tools.ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [tram] Review of draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-03 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:59:29 -0000 Looks good to me. --Brandon On 02/20/2017 02:17 PM, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote: > Thanks for the re-review, Brandon. We posted a new version (-05) that > hopefully addresses all your points below. Please confirm. > > Responses inline... > >> On Feb 20, 2017, at 12:27 PM, Brandon Williams >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Marc, >> >> Thanks. It looks like most of my comments are resolved. >> >> After re-reading, I've still got a few comments, at least one of which >> I see that I missed on the previous pass. My new comments are below. >> Nothing is in-line. Let me know if anything is unclear. >> >> --Brandon >> >> Section 4 >> >> I suggest moving the first paragraph "A client MUST NOT ..." to section >> 4.1.1, since it's about forming/sending a message. Seems like it would >> be a good last paragraph in that section. > > Fixed. > >> Section 4.1.1 para 2 >> >> s/transctaion/transaction/ > > Fixed. > >> Section 4.1.1 para 3 >> >> My question about FINGERPRINT was meant to indicate that the text >> should say why it's needed. I see you've added that explanation >> elsewhere. Maybe add the same here too. > > Fixed. > >> Section 4.2.1 para 1 >> >> s/The server/The client/ > > Fixed. > >> Section 4.2.5 >> >> I still find "the same as" in para 1 confusing here since it's not >> applied to any header fields. Maybe "similar to� > > Fixed. > >> Also, I found para 2 a little difficult to read. How about: >> >> For each STUN Probe Indication or Request, the server retrieves the >> STUN FINGERPRINT value. For all other packets, the server calculates >> the checksum as described above. It puts these FINGERPRINT and >> checksum values in a chronologically ordered list that is sent back >> in the Report Response. > > Fixed. > >> Section 5.2 >> >> I'm still uncertain about this section. The receiver behavior makes >> sense, but that's not really what I was questioning. It's not clear >> what you intend for the original probe sender whose support for PMTUD >> is being assumed by the receiver. How did that first machine know that >> it was safe to send its probe? This section seems to imply that it >> injects probes as a way to tell the receiver that it supports the >> protocol, though you're right, it doesn't actually say that so I think >> I just misunderstood your intention. >> >> So, how does a machine that doesn't know whether the receiver supports >> the PMTUD protocol know whether it's safe to send a probe when it >> hasn't received one from the other party? Is the idea that one side or >> the other must receive this information via signaling or some other means? > > We believe this is answered in Section 5.1. In fact, Section 5.1. states > when the client can send the probe, whereas Section 5.2 states when the > server can become a client and send to the original client. > >> I see the paragraph in section 4 that I previously missed which states >> the client MUST NOT send if it doesn't know the other party supports >> it. Maybe section 5.2 could say something like "In cases where only >> one endpoint (the initial client) knows that its peer endpoint (the >> initial server) supports PMTUD, the initial client sends a Probe >> Request or Indication to the initial server." That seems a little >> clunky, but I think you'll get the point of my suggestion. > > We updated the text, not with your exact proposed text, but with text > that blended a bit better with the existing text and (hopefully) > addressed the source of your uncertainty. > >> >> Section 6.1 para 2 >> >> Maybe you could indicate that section 4.2.5 and 4.2.6 describe two >> methods for acquiring and formatting the identifiers that could be used >> for this purpose. It's clear to me that this is the case, but the >> current text seems to imply that no options are provided by this >> document. > > Fixed. > > Cheers, > > Gonzalo > > >> >> >> On 02/16/2017 02:52 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >>> Hi Brandon, >>> >>> Thanks again for the review, and sorry for the delay in responding. >>> >>> See my comments inline. A new version will be published in a few >>> minutes, please have a look too. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 12/27/2016 11:27 AM, Brandon Williams wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Apologies for taking so long to complete a review of this one. >>>> >>>> Although my list of notes is long, there's nothing really >>>> substantive here. All of my comments are just suggestions to improve >>>> the document's clarity. Incorporate or discard as you see fit. >>>> >>>> Please let me know if any of the following is unclear. >>>> >>>> --Brandon >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. Introduction >>>> >>>> I find the second paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. Here's a >>>> suggestion. >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> >>>> This document only describes how probing mechanisms are implemented >>>> with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN). The algorithm to >>>> find the Path MTU is described in [RFC4821]. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> >>>> This document describes probing mechanisms for Session Traversal >>>> Utilities for NAT (STUN) for use in implementing the Path MTU >>>> Discovery algorithm described in [RFC4821]. >>> >>> Your text change a bit the meaning I was trying to convey in the >>> original text. What about something like the following text: >>> >>> New: >>> >>> Not all UDP-based implement the Path >>> MTU discovery mechanism described in [RFC4821]. These protocols can >>> make use of the probing mechanisms described in this document instead >>> of designing their own adhoc extension. These probing mechanisms are >>> implemented with Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN), but >>> their usage is not limited to STUN-based protocols. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also find the fourth paragraph a tiny bit difficult to read. >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> >>>> Additional network characteristics like the network path (using the >>>> STUN Traceroute mechanism described in >>>> [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth availability (using the >>>> mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]) can >>>> be discovered using complementary techniques. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> >>>> Complimentary techniques can be used to discover addition network >>>> characteristics, such as the network path (using the STUN Traceroute >>>> mechanism described in [I-D.martinsen-tram-stuntrace]) and bandwidth >>>> availability (using the mechanism described in >>>> [I-D.martinsen-tram-turnbandwidthprobe]). >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> 2. Overview of Operations >>>> >>>> In paragraph three, the first "it" in the paragraph should be expanded. >>>> >>>> OLD: ... then it initiates Probe transactions, ... >>>> >>>> NEW: ... then the Client initiates Probe transacations, ... >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Same comment for the next paragraph. >>>> >>>> OLD: ... then it sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... >>>> >>>> NEW: ... then the Client sends Probe Indications of various sizes ... >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4. Probing Mechanisms >>>> >>>> In paragraph six, I think the SHOULD requirement about retransmissions >>>> belongs in section 4.1.1, which already describes this requirement in >>>> other terms ("the Rc parameter ... is set to 3."). This part of section >>>> 4 should stick to providing the MUST/MAY requirements for which of the >>>> mechanisms are to be implemented. >>> >>> Sentence removed. >>> >>>> >>>> Additionally, I think that paragraph six could be moved to be text >>>> for the currently empty section 4.1. Simple Probing Mechanism. In >>>> that case, paragraphs 7-10 could be moved to be text for the >>>> currently empty section 4.2. Complete Probing Mechanism. I think >>>> moving the high-level descriptions of the two mechanisms into their >>>> respective sections improves the document flow. >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> Finally, in the last paragraph of the section, it states "... the >>>> client adds a sequence number in front of each UDP packet sent." >>>> I think you mean "... the client prepends the UDP data with a >>>> header that provides a sequence number." At least, this is what the >>>> description in the later section indicates to me. >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.1.1. Sending a Probe Request >>>> >>>> This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a Probe >>>> Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. >>> >>> Done, using your preference. >>> >>>> >>>> Regarding authentication, why would an implementation authenticate >>>> the Probe transaction? Is doing so recommended? If so, why? This is >>>> discussed later in security considerations, but it was unclear to me >>>> at this point in the document. >>> >>> Rewrote the text with a bit more explanations. >>> >>>> >>>> Regarding the FINGERPRINT attribute, why is it required? >>> >>> The STUN messages need to be sent together with the packets of the >>> the other protocol, which can be anything, so the FINGERPRINT helps >>> differentiate STUN packets. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.1.2. Receiving a Probe Request >>>> >>>> Here again, why is the FINGERPRINT attribute required? >>> >>> See above. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.1.3. Receiving a Probe Response >>>> >>>> OLD: If the Probe transactions times out ... >>>> >>>> NEW: If the Probe transaction times out ... >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.2.1. Sending the Probe Indications and Report Request >>>> >>>> Why MUST the Probe Indication be authenticated, when this is not >>>> required (only allowed) for a Probe Request? Here again, it's >>>> discussed later, but was unclear to me here. >>> >>> Same than above, clarified the text. >>> >>>> >>>> Also, same question as above about FINGERPRINT here. >>> >>> See above. >>> >>>> >>>> This section should indicate the STUN method type used for a >>>> Report Request (prefered) or forward reference section 8.1. >>>> >>> >>> Done, using your preference. >>> >>>> >>>> 4.2.3. Receiving a Probe Indication and Report Request >>>> >>>> I suggest that you forward reference the section that describes >>>> construction of the IDENTIFIERS attribute in the last paragraph. >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.2.4. Receiving a Report Response >>>> >>>> The description of Probe Failure is a bit incomplete. It should >>>> include a little more detail. >>>> >>>> OLD: >>>> >>>> If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report >>>> Response, this is interpreted as a Probe Failure, as defined in >>>> [RFC4821] Section 7.5. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> >>>> If the Probe Indication identifier cannot be found in the Report >>>> Response but identifiers for other packets sent before or after >>>> the Probe Indication can all be found, this is interpreted as a >>>> Probe Failure as defined in [RFC4821] Section 7.5. >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 4.2.5. Using Checksums as Packet Identifiers >>>> >>>> The second paragraph states "The algorithm used to calculate the >>>> checksum is the same as the algorithm used for the FINGERPRINT >>>> attribute." I find this description a bit unclear, since the >>>> description of the FINGERPRINT calculation in RFC5389 discusses >>>> the STUN header fields, etc. Here, you're just talking about >>>> generating a CRC-32 value XORed with 0x5354554e. It might be >>>> more clear to just say that. >>> >>> Done. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 5.2. Implicit Probe Support Signaling Mechanism >>>> >>>> I'm a little concerned about the idea of just injecting probes >>>> as a way to figure out whether the receiver supports them. It's >>>> hard to know for every possible protocol that this will work and >>>> will not break the protocol. Maybe add a cautionary note. >>> >>> No, the idea is not to inject probes to detect support. Here we know >>> that the receiver will support receiving probes, because it acted as >>> a probe sender. The sender of a probe implicitly signals that it can >>> itself receive and process probes. >>> >>> Section 4 states that all implementations of this specification MUST >>> implement the server side of both probing mechanisms, and this is how >>> the implicit signaling mechanism can work. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 6.1. IDENTIFIERS >>>> >>>> Sections 4.2.5. and 4.2.6. each describe 32 bit identifiers. I >>>> think section 6.1. should say a little more than just "contents >>>> are opaque". I suggest that you describe specifically what the >>>> attribute value will look like if one of the two 32 bit schemes >>>> is used and declare that other protocols may generate different >>>> values. >>>> >>> >>> All right, that was the difficult part. When trying to do what you >>> suggested, I discovered that there was no mechanism to put the Probe >>> packets in the list in the IDENTIFIERS attribute. So the text in >>> both section was rewritten to add that possibility. The sections >>> also contain the description of the content of the IDENTIFIERS attribute. >>> >>>> >>>> 6.2. PMTUD-SUPPORTED >>>> >>>> For clarity, I suggest something a little more like the value >>>> description of DONT-FRAGMENT from RFC5766. >>>> >>>> OLD: This attribute is empty. >>>> >>>> NEW: >>>> >>>> This attribute has no value part and thus the attribute >>>> length field is 0. >>>> >>> >>> Done. >>> >> >> -- >> Brandon Williams; Chief Architect >> Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >> > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc.