From nobody Fri Jun 1 07:05:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0520B12D87F for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5_U4fIwHNnEP for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED27612D87E for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122332.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w51E28Ws026802; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 15:05:00 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=subject : to : references : from : message-id : date : mime-version : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=jan2016.eng; bh=t3XGZ4bZckT73cPBMNi0sEZJh3mfzjNcnQey0LQUImI=; b=kfK/YJT48uVCUJNi6AtFeVkgc1KLW2zR0BtblPOiGs6XxMZz9X0kAC3iBtEE978drDJx 442rLi00wX7fiHVB68jidIykjer5KJ/DglTC0JbaY/3UTzuk0vbqbvhyFxIBfELAhr9s 6We1/1Y9nfmGd9KVzPtlSRUoEGslSI6qDrIwD3q9gvTLj2c37C7cFMObwhECpPlXIS8P d/4TDj+ZTYmc9kdGC49e5J9ppBOt/uyad4fHmO10xsVoKpog724LX7b/7Njxa4Avhnx0 5H2YChPOE5KqI0jqoLVb701rhws+IzOmpQOvq/x4MY5KlLL8cM7yfsh5/Fd5NWQXrXcx OA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint3 (a96-6-114-86.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [96.6.114.86] (may be forged)) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2jb7j6g0jb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 01 Jun 2018 15:05:00 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w51DxjBD028087; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 10:04:59 -0400 Received: from prod-mail-relay15.akamai.com ([172.27.17.40]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2j9cvvfu6c-1; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 10:04:45 -0400 Received: from [172.28.116.218] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.116.218]) by prod-mail-relay15.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB7720C90; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 14:01:33 +0000 (GMT) To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "tram@ietf.org" References: <152759086979.25527.10597739101423022507@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: <46f01832-fb13-c41d-e161-c7f0bbcaa7a6@akamai.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 10:01:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-06-01_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1805220000 definitions=main-1806010163 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-06-01_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1805220000 definitions=main-1806010163 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 14:05:03 -0000 I re-reviewed. Since you incorporate all of my suggested changes, it looks like no additional follow-up is required from me. My hope has been to see comments from a few others on-list indicating that the new content has received adequate WG review. I haven't seen any such feedback yet. Chairs, I wonder whether a renewed last call might be appropriate, just to re-enforce for people that this is their last opportunity to comment on the draft before it progresses forward to the IESG. --Brandon On 05/29/2018 06:52 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: > This revision incorporates editorial changes proposed by Brandon to allow the TURN server to forward inbound STUN connectivity checks without explicit permissions. > More comments and suggestions are welcome. > > Cheers, > -Tiru > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- >> drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:18 PM >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Cc: tram@ietf.org >> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt >> >> >> >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF. >> >> Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions >> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) >> Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Alan Johnston >> Philip Matthews >> Jonathan Rosenberg >> Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt >> Pages : 84 >> Date : 2018-05-29 >> >> Abstract: >> If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can >> be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts >> (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use >> the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication >> relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal >> Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the >> operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using >> the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in >> that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a >> single relay address. >> >> The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE >> (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, >> though it also can be used without ICE. >> >> This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ >> >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > -- Brandon Williams; Chief Architect Cloud Networking; Akamai Technologies Inc. From nobody Fri Jun 1 11:47:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940C612DA4E for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mozilla.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2t06E9rQ4Bft for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x22a.google.com (mail-pl0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E53E112E050 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id z9-v6so12478360plk.11 for ; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla.com; s=google; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=YxjpiT5kLCSJKX+HRrQAAmb/xWuJ8y6HkwTTtCfkmOQ=; b=Z/H/BzW7rD6iddXiZsjtrY60U7K21zYHrDeOag0wmkqgfvv6TGZ72oGvWw88zDhgte 3Oouf5ZsnkrQuggvCkMuo7Da1Xnoz0tY1T9vEtWmHuuvkwGeoDjaUiwJLcgo6joBJpOx S9bQFliScmmVNSIt7fRUS+jaPXIFBJ6ZLGGP0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=YxjpiT5kLCSJKX+HRrQAAmb/xWuJ8y6HkwTTtCfkmOQ=; b=ErBKQeXaOYgmF4e3WXsscPF+RWqrM5nzY4TlvXxWrsGOwTlq7NeoMYHtwLEAcjmqHG +U1+alp/twj3vl1qVK3gshn0GVqqLUmAaPNCSohs0tMEiJS836jds/fQYzxn9uiVTvXs XDq7dzQzU7lV3+qsgbPFzUJ2G90UHUUVoYW4KRIZ2VWihkCXF3JinyYbPum08V3tshOZ NagCA86c9o3Ip3eR2FPpa2Vod/KwxHj9P6UJq2j04dfk1k+mrZzLLnEtlskeCVCzGbZc TXaEy89XlKIvwC8GngVUwB5T/zzw+nVobF9uBfRFU13MIp04kiQRt7+TZ5uIgfZIKXWR /PBA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdvqXrYpo39CkDXWqt31G2U1l9FFZS31/cje6L7TweOSWgmGqVG wv+vvbFnzHoiCwN96JPMJKhgsnXEkLU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLhk9xHIZxaYP16jGLDhl5psqaQ+X2rD+ZDwdJmPF3mO6kCgyj7inUfJ0Z53DjU360oZW+Phg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:683:: with SMTP id 3-v6mr12306881plh.291.1527878836005; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4600:3f31:44ce:6264:a2f2:8a16? ([2601:647:4600:3f31:44ce:6264:a2f2:8a16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c8-v6sm20279373pgu.19.2018.06.01.11.47.13 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 01 Jun 2018 11:47:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Nils Ohlmeier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:47:12 -0700 References: <152759086979.25527.10597739101423022507@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "tram@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4B3DB45B-4358-43FB-A9B0-01F919E434EF@mozilla.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 18:47:30 -0000 I reviewed the diff between version 17 and 18 and the changes to allow a = TURN server to forward inbound STUN messages if configured so look good = to me. Best Nils Ohlmeier > On May 29, 2018, at 03:52, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 > This revision incorporates editorial changes proposed by Brandon to = allow the TURN server to forward inbound STUN connectivity checks = without explicit permissions.=20 > More comments and suggestions are welcome. >=20 > Cheers, > -Tiru >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- >> drafts@ietf.org >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:18 PM >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Cc: tram@ietf.org >> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of = the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): = Relay Extensions >> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) >> Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy >> Alan Johnston >> Philip Matthews >> Jonathan Rosenberg >> Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt >> Pages : 84 >> Date : 2018-05-29 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it = can >> be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other = hosts >> (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use >> the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication >> relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN = (Traversal >> Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the >> operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using >> the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in >> that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a >> single relay address. >>=20 >> The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE >> (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, >> though it also can be used without ICE. >>=20 >> This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ >>=20 >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Fri Jun 1 16:57:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BBE12E050 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4r_7GypS1BRp for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C576012E048 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id c3-v6so3858793itj.4 for ; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MQF6qODNhrh3+AzTKy701bG+XUmRqzmdpacv3oeTsc0=; b=BUiHO6nAYCtskyuwrQn4bcx6QHE8KWOIZT1FgM/OzAvmK5LGqpvuzQ8zAZ6p/7tGVf XJroBimRH4Ow5iA26XxTZ46Jc7jyT9q9boiZTrmf0R2a4hWyAI1P5GyT0xh6qbqfdqlx 0sGmPeSOuG7LfSe2O9r1ja8wd1PJKalwfxW7gNY9QJ91dHm9C/Lb3TYGuiaCoIbhZbM+ u5OyuxwUpRSGuVogVdowz3iyjMip5ExBRA5pLeoOy2P/u62DMK1fMcohzZGOlohjNmgS eLDc7saigxdxEu9gJykD45Uxk/HXmpYRTmHDaK5AWqHCGp0YBBBmUSBoKzhOEABfRnf1 ljPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MQF6qODNhrh3+AzTKy701bG+XUmRqzmdpacv3oeTsc0=; b=OLBpmYfWr7MjQ0vJGCxsRsdli5ix+59xM8ZyiLUXInzXAJkYrBM/pifZRK6+1878sg j6kDvOpp3Qy7zzbHhYNd5O7axixgvjZbaIeVspYUhtjeYCx4As0FeQW7Av3fTnMhTDmZ yyVmG8evSrrOZb+qlNVx5N1C6NIJbEZDK7gydKJmnYqYnvfAPFiu0HVXHy/S/vIy6/Wn GqHx8R7P+8i8D7fyNhr00O7M922nUJCyqgtkuMGaKwmRxl2Qm9xuh4U0ZnWI6ta8MaHW XjrhrnvUw9csz4o9ycpL9aLdJYd7fKSg+TIpt9JwbiGPjYWlwtCNhHO4qSZAbyG+ZFOo /C4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3mLGnPEP/k3mV9Q9Dg+bumo3ZKcwSWDsikpqIiXLnfOj5ejAWy Ocz7x+Y6tmARzvBS9/FB2zjX438UjiuQIpJ7T42nJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKKY0Xg0u0UvqllTBUfAJ67bB7HK8X54MvbTPuFm8DIJBXtuPqgmWQTxu+Y82CBuYi3iELOEI6ebTvqoUQgr1D0= X-Received: by 2002:a24:5901:: with SMTP id p1-v6mr6158214itb.119.1527897421643; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152759086979.25527.10597739101423022507@ietfa.amsl.com> <4B3DB45B-4358-43FB-A9B0-01F919E434EF@mozilla.com> In-Reply-To: <4B3DB45B-4358-43FB-A9B0-01F919E434EF@mozilla.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 16:56:50 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nils Ohlmeier Cc: tram@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000012ca36056d9d576d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2018 23:57:05 -0000 --00000000000012ca36056d9d576d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I reviewed the diff as well and have the following comments: - In the initial discussion of allowing STUN packets, it mentions that STUN checks can occur while the client is preparing permission requests. I think this could be worded more clearly, e.g. "... addressing the race condition that exists when the remote peer sends connectivity checks before the local client has had a chance to create permissions in the TURN server for the remote peer IP addresses." - Nit: In Section 19, 'atrributes' typo On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:47 AM Nils Ohlmeier wrote: > I reviewed the diff between version 17 and 18 and the changes to allow a > TURN server to forward inbound STUN messages if configured so look good to > me. > > Best > Nils Ohlmeier > > > On May 29, 2018, at 03:52, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > wrote: > > > > This revision incorporates editorial changes proposed by Brandon to > allow the TURN server to forward inbound STUN connectivity checks without > explicit permissions. > > More comments and suggestions are welcome. > > > > Cheers, > > -Tiru > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > >> drafts@ietf.org > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:18 PM > >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >> Cc: tram@ietf.org > >> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > >> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the > IETF. > >> > >> Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): > Relay Extensions > >> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) > >> Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > >> Alan Johnston > >> Philip Matthews > >> Jonathan Rosenberg > >> Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt > >> Pages : 84 > >> Date : 2018-05-29 > >> > >> Abstract: > >> If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can > >> be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts > >> (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use > >> the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication > >> relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal > >> Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the > >> operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using > >> the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in > >> that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a > >> single relay address. > >> > >> The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE > >> (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, > >> though it also can be used without ICE. > >> > >> This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ > >> > >> There are also htmlized versions available at: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 > >> > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18 > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tram mailing list > >> tram@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > --00000000000012ca36056d9d576d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I reviewed the diff as well and have the following comment= s:
- In the initial discussion of allowing STUN packets, it mention= s that STUN checks can occur while the client is preparing permission reque= sts. I think this could be worded more clearly, e.g.
".= .. addressing the race condition that exists when the remote peer sends con= nectivity checks before the local client has had a chance to create permiss= ions in the TURN server for the remote peer IP addresses."
=

- Nit: In Section 19, 'atrributes' typo

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at = 11:47 AM Nils Ohlmeier <nohlmei= er@mozilla.com> wrote:
I rev= iewed the diff between version 17 and 18 and the changes to allow a TURN se= rver to forward inbound STUN messages if configured so look good to me.

Best
=C2=A0 Nils Ohlmeier

> On May 29, 2018, at 03:52, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarR= eddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:
>
> This revision incorporates editorial changes proposed by Brandon to al= low the TURN server to forward inbound STUN connectivity checks without exp= licit permissions.
> More comments and suggestions are welcome.
>
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
>> drafts@ietf.o= rg
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 4:18 PM
>> To: i-d= -announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: tram@ietf.o= rg
>> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18.txt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts= directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of= the IETF.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0: Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions
>> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: Tirumaleswar Reddy
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alan Johnston
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Philip Matthews
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jonathan Rosenberg
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-ie= tf-tram-turnbis-18.txt
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= : 84
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = : 2018-05-29
>>
>> Abstract:
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain sit= uations it can
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0be impossible for that host to communicate directly wi= th other hosts
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(peers).=C2=A0 In these situations, it is necessary fo= r the host to use
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the services of an intermediate node that acts as a co= mmunication
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0relay.=C2=A0 This specification defines a protocol, ca= lled TURN (Traversal
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to cont= rol the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0operation of the relay and to exchange packets with it= s peers using
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the relay.=C2=A0 TURN differs from some other relay co= ntrol protocols in
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0that it allows a client to communicate with multiple p= eers using a
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0single relay address.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of t= he ICE
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to N= AT traversal,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0though it also can be used without ICE.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d= raft-ietf-tram-turnbis/
>>
>> There are also htmlized versions available at:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet= f-tram-turnbis-18
>> https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?= url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-18
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tram mailing list
>> tram@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram >
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram
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--_000_BN6PR16MB1425676C402294ECAA5ED13AEA610BN6PR16MB1425namp_-- From nobody Sun Jun 3 23:21:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13DE120727; Sun, 3 Jun 2018 23:21:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tram@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152809326560.20924.1993421118096117008@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2018 23:21:05 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 06:21:06 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF. Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Alan Johnston Philip Matthews Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2018-06-03 Abstract: If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single relay address. The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, though it also can be used without ICE. This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jun 3 23:24:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5771241FC for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2018 23:24:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aLXGGJoeVOyX for ; Sun, 3 Jun 2018 23:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DNVWSMAILOUT1.mcafee.com (dnvwsmailout1.mcafee.com [161.69.31.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 119461241F8 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 06:24:52 -0000 This revision addresses comments from Justin. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 11:51 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt >=20 >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IE= TF. >=20 > Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay= Extensions > to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Alan Johnston > Philip Matthews > Jonathan Rosenberg > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt > Pages : 84 > Date : 2018-06-03 >=20 > Abstract: > If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can > be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts > (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use > the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication > relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal > Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the > operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using > the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in > that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a > single relay address. >=20 > The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE > (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, > though it also can be used without ICE. >=20 > This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Mon Jun 11 18:15:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FD7130EAC for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kr6GxKf00gJi for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A599126F72 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id l25-v6so26117320ioh.12 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nQQp2BAOQeMmR006zSA1mnxDwcjYLWigDu+IMBOK4js=; b=jFzKJaCMRAZAkxg/iMaS/kEd3878nkc6qJduoyJPBwOIRWyW5mxSgCEPq4j9hWEh/I GuvWMyR5TxRfOwi/cbpKguhbGxGdAJPLHA4Q21r1OwtNiwrFF+xf73JJ8ogF6FQ55nxp f0Xmxof1iN+Cqws6SoF9pTKx+5tWskHAuEZVy4S8EQ0KXz5LUUgIlLdgaLl9gAyO0w3O xST6/ELcSMQZiBpOcjzBGwVvcOpnDeqUR0m3CUL7NqMgZ8Mn2yyIAVcLDSDoPUx4suvf pJrx33stkLBrGqzKYqLlK376EQTlWJfSCmdxn5qhTWlzT2Mm8MVD07ofxu79J+NjsNtO oWFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nQQp2BAOQeMmR006zSA1mnxDwcjYLWigDu+IMBOK4js=; b=ZfgXP5rJfXLmr5t3NUN6jaZJbWBRv5F6US8M4NqIgFueLHURaPIAmDHTYh+UIp1GO6 QtJ9ZwH6AXlQ9vDmdPOmDRosVRe+XPNCN/Op4XTEC5Y1WkxIjMJ6m/mYaaHd+7e57R0X TripSPzE4t+R2zeVuZHAXYyk3K/c0CeMRRlGMPNQ0WcE08L8R7EwvvRRpvXkCXupOFjb UlOb7Nmo1fJBhhqS1qat4SEUPObY85fXWN3bAXTD0sd9BH0kZ7S0EtkdAo0v1dZf+x3e +OgieBxwjateMicMAFHEqHxdLnKYNzDdrFJNyW2Bcapttcyk7zMCBwxsYinh3D3InXe1 SO5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2zEakOUQKcprk9lSAYMPGR6neA1AQdO/BSrEp/dTTmAqkNdsDI hc5p1OJ2PbDuGwovssNbSKk+jNY/Rzb+UVmNnh5Ydg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLdKaRWVi/SZI3GK/XWI1KlcqKMvD1mtTKPyYmLc2CFdDgiYBb03Aa4Ws9WDLosVCv21Udlh25NC7kXlQ4fcP4= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9156:: with SMTP id t83-v6mr1508925iod.32.1528766137927; Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <152809326560.20924.1993421118096117008@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 18:15:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com Cc: tram@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000991ffe056e679ab7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 01:15:44 -0000 --000000000000991ffe056e679ab7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The revised text in Section 2.3 LGTM. I noticed the acknowledgements section (Section 23) refers to SSODA, but this name doesn't appear elsewhere in the document. Perhaps it should say "the ADDITIONAL-ADDRESS-FAMILY mechanism"? On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:24 PM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy < TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote: > This revision addresses comments from Justin. > > -Tiru > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet- > > drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 11:51 AM > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: tram@ietf.org > > Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt > > > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the > IETF. > > > > Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): > Relay Extensions > > to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) > > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > > Alan Johnston > > Philip Matthews > > Jonathan Rosenberg > > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt > > Pages : 84 > > Date : 2018-06-03 > > > > Abstract: > > If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can > > be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts > > (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use > > the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication > > relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal > > Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the > > operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using > > the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in > > that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a > > single relay address. > > > > The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE > > (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, > > though it also can be used without ICE. > > > > This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tram mailing list > > tram@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > --000000000000991ffe056e679ab7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The revised text in Section 2.3 LGTM.

I= noticed the acknowledgements section (Section 23) refers to SSODA, but thi= s name doesn't appear elsewhere in the document. Perhaps it should say = "the ADDITIONAL-ADDRESS-FAMILY mechanism"?

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:24 PM Konda,= Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:
This revision addresses comments from Justin.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram [mailto:tram-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
> drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Monday, June 4, 2018 11:51 AM
> To: i-d-ann= ounce@ietf.org
> Cc: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt
>
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories.
> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the= IETF.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions
> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0: Tirumaleswar Reddy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alan Johnston
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Philip Matthews
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jonathan Rosenberg
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 84
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2018-06-03
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situat= ions it can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be impossible for that host to communicate directly with = other hosts
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (peers).=C2=A0 In these situations, it is necessary for t= he host to use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the services of an intermediate node that acts as a commu= nication
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 relay.=C2=A0 This specification defines a protocol, calle= d TURN (Traversal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control= the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its p= eers using
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the relay.=C2=A0 TURN differs from some other relay contr= ol protocols in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peer= s using a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single relay address.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the = ICE
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT = traversal,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though it also can be used without ICE.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -ietf-tram-turnbis/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tr= am-turnbis-19
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2= =3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram

_______________________________________________
tram mailing list
tram@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram
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pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w5DDCHmX027478; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:16:44 -0400 Received: from prod-mail-relay15.akamai.com ([172.27.17.40]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2jjp74j6br-1; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:16:44 -0400 Received: from [172.28.116.218] (bowill.kendall.corp.akamai.com [172.28.116.218]) by prod-mail-relay15.akamai.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E8B20069; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:16:44 +0000 (GMT) To: Simon Perreault , tram@ietf.org Cc: Cullen Jennings , Eric Rescorla , draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org References: From: Brandon Williams Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:16:31 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-06-13_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1805220000 definitions=main-1806130145 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-06-13_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1805220000 definitions=main-1806130145 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Allow TURN to forward inbound connectivity checks without permission X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 13:16:52 -0000 EKR and Cullen, The turnbis draft was updated to allow permissionless inbound connectivity checks. It would be useful for you to review the relevant changes to verify that you think the use case(s) you had in mind will be covered by the update. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ Thanks, --Brandon On 03/19/2018 06:50 AM, Simon Perreault wrote: > Tramsters, > > $subject is an very interesting idea from EKR presented today by Cullen > in DISPATCH. Could/should we do this in TURN-bis? This could make TURN > *much* more attractive for certain use cases that require fewer round > trips... > > Simon > > > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > From nobody Wed Jun 13 22:52:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559DB1310A8 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:52:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c7Z1f73qhUo0 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F37F8130E85 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2018 22:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6820; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1528955536; x=1530165136; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=XglPR/j1KRX5u5LzpuNG30CO82FRZ300QrNghXhWlTs=; b=IW5Y6A7bV/uTDwKZmzkyaJJgAemwwlE/QcBykyfQd8QUp3R6WBLRIxfE uZObGCoyV6w85aUn9SYWZdXVFP8Swat3s1NhtxFyIBrVqSO0xF7GXMZ8s gqpPm4IHHHNDjE1bNL/l+XkmFn4Ew3sX2GThQth9xHGVJBY9lACCmNpUI 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DAAAD8ASJb/4YNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNIYn8oCoNviASMaIF/lGsUgWQLGAuESQIXgiQhNBgBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQJtHAyFKAEBAQQBASEROgsMBAIBCBEDAQEBAwIjAwICAiULFAEICAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EAQ0FgyICgX8PqiqBIIIciEaBaIELh0CCE4EPJIJogxEBAQIBARaBCQEJARI?= =?us-ascii?q?BHwczgkcxgiQCjDmMUwkChXWJCIE/QYM+h3iKDYcNAhETAYEkHThhcXAVGiE?= =?us-ascii?q?qAYIYCYsIhT5vAY5RgR+BGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,222,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="129667653" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Jun 2018 05:52:16 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (xch-rtp-016.cisco.com [64.101.220.156]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w5E5qFfs004627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Jun 2018 05:52:15 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-017.cisco.com (64.101.220.157) by XCH-RTP-016.cisco.com (64.101.220.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 14 Jun 2018 01:52:15 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-017.cisco.com ([64.101.220.157]) by XCH-RTP-017.cisco.com ([64.101.220.157]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 14 Jun 2018 01:52:15 -0400 From: "Ram Mohan R (rmohanr)" To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "Justin Uberti" CC: "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt Thread-Index: AQHUA6PYn295Bq8Zm0CePE6OhHY+WA== Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 05:52:15 +0000 Message-ID: <7F95390B-F7BA-41C1-97C9-AE1E7FD37F2F@cisco.com> References: <152809326560.20924.1993421118096117008@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.b.0.180311 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.196.93.103] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4F0006B2B071294A903D1ED5D809FE82@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-19.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:35:35 -0000 Hi, related to the following exchange between Marc and Spencer: > > If using authentication in > > > >   UDP-based protocols that want to use any of these mechanisms, > >    including the PMTUD-SUPPORTED attribute, to signal PMTUD capabilities > >    MUST ensure that it cannot be used to launch an amplification attack. > >    For example, using authentication can ensure this. > > > > is only one way to ensure prevention of amplification attacks, is there any > > guidance or reference you could point to that would help implementers > > evaluate other approaches? > > It's a good question.  I have to think about that. > > > Thanks for the quick and thorough responses. > > I think I'm good on your responses for all my other questions. I'll let > the working group chew on this one, and let the chairs/shepherd let me > know when to request Last Call. Where are we with this? Do we have a way forward? Cheers, Gonzalo From nobody Mon Jun 18 03:41:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B93130DCE for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=Ftd/lDyI; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com header.b=f+CaidiT Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kSh6XNIdrZUm for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06FF2130E84 for ; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:41:10 -0000 Marc, Eric, what is the status of this discussion? Thanks, Gonzalo On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > wrote: > > On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > > > wrote: > > > >> > >>>>      For a request or indication message, the agent MUST include the > >>>>      USERNAME, MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and MESSAGE-INTEGRITY > >> attributes > >>>>      in the message unless the agent knows from an external indication > >>>>      which message integrity algorithm is supported by both agents.  In > >>>>      this case either MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST > >>>>      be included in addition to USERNAME.  The HMAC for the MESSAGE- > >>> > >>> This text appears to conflict with S 7.3 of 5245-bis, which says: > >> > >> [text missing] > >> > >> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still referencing RFC5389, so the procedure for > >> stunbis does not apply. > >> > > > > I hear what you're saying, but publishing two documents at the same time > > which > > make contrary recommendations about the same basic protocol is un-good. > > Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have rfc5245bis using stunbis > and have them updating their text, more than adding some tortuous > text in stunbis? > > > > > > >>>      The STUN usage must specify which transport protocol is used, and > >> how > >>>>      the agent determines the IP address and port of the recipient. > >>>>      Section 8 describes a DNS-based method of determining the IP > >> address > >>>>      and port of a server that a usage may elect to use.  STUN may be > >> used > >>>>      with anycast addresses, but only with UDP and in usages where > >>>>      authentication is not used. > >>> > >>> Why this restriction? You should be able to use anycast with long-term > >>> AUTH for (say) TURN. > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg03582.html > > >> > >> I think that the decision of permitting Anycast should be left to each > >> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does not use authentication and use only a > >> one round trip for the Binding transaction, so Unicast can be used. > >> > > > >> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say something about that, so I added a > >> new bullet point in Section 13: > >> > >>    o  If Anycast addresses can be used for the server in case TCP or > >>       TLS-over-TCP, or authentication are used. > >> > > > > Are you leaving this text in? That seems very confusing. > > In isolation yes, but I think it makes sense which the text before > the bullet points: > >    A STUN usage defines how STUN is actually utilized -- when to send >    requests, what to do with the responses, and which optional >    procedures defined here (or in an extension to STUN) are to be used. >    A usage also defines: > > [...] > >    o  If Anycast addresses can be used for the server in case TCP or >       TLS-over-TCP, or authentication are used. > > > What is the need for the restriction at all. > >   > > >>>>      transaction over UDP or DTLS-over-UDP is also considered failed if > >>>>      there has been a hard ICMP error [RFC1122].  For example, assuming > >> an > >>>>      RTO of 500ms, requests would be sent at times 0 ms, 500 ms, 1500 > >> ms, > >>>>      3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, and 31500 ms.  If the client has not > >>>>      received a response after 39500 ms, the client will consider the > >>>>      transaction to have timed out. > >>> > >>> I note that these recommendations now seem crazily long. I assume the > >>> WG had consensus on this, but I wanted to note it. > >> > >> Not just the WG, also the IESG that approved RFC 5389 too as, but for the > >> addition of "or DTLS-over-UDP", this is the same text than in RFC 5389. > >> > > > > Yes, I know. My point is that while they might have bee sensible when > > 5389 was published they *now* seem crazily long. Did the WG explicitly > > decide not to update them? > > No, nobody ever suggested that there was an issue there. > > > OK, well, this seems like it should be considered, then, because this > doesn't > match modern practice. > > > > > This would be good to explain. > > New text: > >    [...] >    containing the subjectAltName of that certificate.  The test on the >    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute indicates that the transaction is >    authenticated and that the client implements this specification and >    so can process the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN attribute. > > > All right. > > > > > > > >>>>      o  What authentication and message-integrity mechanisms are used. > >>>> > >>>>      o  The considerations around manual vs. automatic key derivation > >> for > >>>>         the integrity mechanism, as discussed in [RFC4107]. > >>>> > >>>>      o  What mechanisms are used to distinguish STUN messages from other > >>> > >>> Why is this required? It seems like that's a generic STUN feature. > >> > >> That text is identical to the text in RFC 5389.  RFC 5764/7983 is one such > >> mechanism, but there is nothing that prevent another protocol stack to use > >> a different mechanism (inference, shim, etc...) > >> > > > > But ultimately no matter what the other protocol provides for demux, STUN > > has its > > own demux. > > In fact I think that the reason for that item was because > FINGERPRINT can also be used to demux STUN traffic, but it is > optional.  So an STUN Usage needs to tell if FINGERPRINT is > mandatory (like in ICE). > > > This should be explained. > > > >>> > >>>>      that is not readily subject to offline dictionary attacks. > >>>>      Protection of the channel itself, using TLS or DTLS, mitigates > >> these > >>>>      attacks. > >>>> > >>>>      STUN supports both MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and > MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, > >>>>      which is subject to bid down attacks by an on-path attacker. > >>> > >>> By an on-path attacker who can forge HMAC-SHA1 in real-time? > That's a > >>> pretty serious adversary, so you should clarify here > >>> > >> > >> New text: > >> > >>    STUN supports both MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, > >>    which is subject to bid down attacks by an on-path attacker that > >>    would strip the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute leaving > only the > >>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and exploiting a potential > vulnerability. > >>    Protection of the channel itself, using TLS or DTLS, mitigates > these > >>    attacks.  Timely removal of the support of MESSAGE-INTEGRITY in a > >>    future version of STUN is necessary. > >> > > > > I still don't understand the capabilities you seem to believe the > attacker > > has. > > Can you describe the exact attack. > > > > 1. Vulnerability is found in HMAC-SHA1 > 2. Client Alice still supports M-I and M-I-256, does not know what > version of STUN server Bob supports and so send both. > 3. On-path attacker removes M-I-256. > 5. stunbis server Bob thinks that Alice is an RFC 5389 client and > continue with that protocol. > > > This seems like an extremely weak attack. In general, any protocol of > this type is as strong > as the weakest integrity algorithm it supports, so it's not that the > protocol has a downgrade > attack, but rather that the minimum algorithm supported is one you don't > trust as much > as you might like. > > -Ekr > > > -- > Marc Petit-Huguenin > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug > > > From nobody Mon Jun 18 03:41:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28EB130E8F for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 03:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.311 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:41:22 -0000 Marc, Adam, what is the status of this discussion? Thanks, Gonzalo On 21/05/2018 9:11 PM, Adam Roach wrote: > Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. Two responses below > -- everything else looks good. > > On 5/3/18 6:37 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> On 04/23/2018 03:37 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> §17.3.1: >>>> >>>>>   IANA is requested to update the names for attributes 0x0002, 0x0003, >>>>>   0x0004, 0x0005, 0x0007, and 0x000B, and the reference from RFC 5389 >>>>>   to RFC-to-be for the following STUN methods: >>>> ... >>>>>   0x0003: (Reserved; prior to [RFC5389] this was CHANGE-REQUEST) >>>> The attribute 0x0003 is registered by RFC 5780, and should not be >>>> removed by this document. >>> Fixed. > > > Thanks for the change, but the new text still asks IANA to update the > table so that 0x0003 points to *this* document, instead of continuing to > point to RFC 5780. Since this document does not do anything with > CHANGE-REQUEST, this update does not seem correct. > > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> §6.2.3 says: >>>> >>>>>   Alternatively, a >>>>>   client MAY be configured with a set of IP addresses that are >>>>> trusted; >>>>>   if a certificate is received that identifies one of those IP >>>>>   addresses, the client considers the identity of the server to be >>>>>   verified. >>>> Presumably, this means the server supplies a certificate with >>>> SubjectAltName >>>> containing an iPAddress? Please add text to clarify whether that's the >>>> intention. >>>> >>>> If that *is* the intended meaning, then this behavior in §8.1 seems >>>> unnecessarily restrictive: >>>> >>>>>   A "stuns" URI >>>>>   containing an IP address MUST be rejected, unless the domain name is >>>>>   provided by the same mechanism that provided the STUN URI, and that >>>>>   domain name can be passed to the verification code. >>>> Presumably, this is done because certs with iPAddress-form >>>> SubjectAltNames are >>>> pretty rare (although CAB Forum baseline requirements do explicitly >>>> allow >>>> their issuance) -- but if the text in §6.2.3 is based on allowing >>>> the use of >>>> such certs in a TURN deployment, then it seems that URI resolution >>>> should be >>>> also. >>>> >>> I am not sure what was the intent there, so I'll work on that later. >> We addressed all the other comments, but it would be great if you >> could suggest some text to address that one. > > I'm not sure what was meant either! > > I think we need to untangle what the working group meant to say > regarding "trusted IP addresses," the way this protocol is intended to > use certs, and whether the prohibition on using IP addresses in "stuns" > URIs derives from cert handling or if it has a completely different > rationale behind it; and, if the former, ensure that those things that > are prohibited or allowed in certs are similarly prohibited or allowed > in URIs. > > I can suggest some *behavior*, but unless there is some record of what > the WG meant, any such behavior would need to be discussed by the > working group, and a consensus would need to be declared by the chairs. > > > /a > From nobody Mon Jun 18 10:44:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D60130E08 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ai4gevWdfJvX for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x243.google.com (mail-ot0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2748912872C for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x243.google.com with SMTP id a5-v6so19442566otf.12 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5awIXE/Pt5DYf8U7R/Agy7+3aLJQBOP5duDQ/27QkG8=; b=WWruUiYoW1+HAMWmtO/7OMMlpuoS/gE3io/EYAF2ktXVgCRmj1THk5+hTfy6aGofvR dvgs1sM2Mh6NY9f7qB+wV8yPWdRyBu2QLpMAk7IB4z8IjhncfAzBNb4KzbEAOkRPScxX EEBkoeSXUoVmkdhp+dVbQW4S4HxdCPJYgYOMX+09ftqJTKVLlVDdfloVjImJSZSd46TV amt0W5tJXiSl/6gSr/5yQa7ou6v63Hn0xVErwt05JVQrC5I5DKXpZh+l1TUu9JDFu0gd zI3zT8ue/vbimKteShHM+PZjoK/I/qya5mtqUECNqRrCVCbYOAXdiL1poL4NKm7Gnw0E +Asw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5awIXE/Pt5DYf8U7R/Agy7+3aLJQBOP5duDQ/27QkG8=; b=oRC9O7MXbIcACqOJXdhblPQ5LdFyLQEeCFHP838k5V7R29HGMd4DWQf4USkm4lmzml PlkECz5Xl2i1URjjC0loutnwfuFJLE4nu+3u6tWrTEQ74FXO6XbOXlObzy9R142c15Si FSeHtKHCoZDJeSOoyZ9V+CtrUJzN9S/AoMsxgiqwOv685ia6+lROxMRD2bJXrkK1MESv R6Zzjhd1dCP63qAl3umy2bdcpbmG1d1+XDLv6vo1CGDNGpWtrNR782Z2HFMNEkbjsXgg W0oqhCQUbuZWHZIv5Khq45cLi74xPGPJJMoSLG1t6C2GmPo8mYO22R04bLdqwV8lwshP 24rA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1I1b6UDaJbqgywFzYW7sWPwawj8HEF1WVv0Rgsg64sWz5jqQb/ 61vwN6JGgwMEAt3uOfOqrgSdpokiEipYqmA/v5C6Ow== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKJhM1RU8Vn97ChFAbdShoZM0Qz03b6hpYT/xvpkU1t6CqfYLnAv9wqziUXME4n9q1+rnZsr1Mil3aFni1/bdQI= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:42b0:: with SMTP id r45-v6mr9132470ote.44.1529343844495; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ac9:3a8a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:43:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <235b838f-2800-2cd0-8b01-947e70837619@ericsson.com> References: <152390863222.19652.10310304989315386136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02569943-db8f-654e-7322-49bc1f1a1163@acm.org> <235b838f-2800-2cd0-8b01-947e70837619@ericsson.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:43:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Gonzalo Camarillo Cc: Marc Petit-Huguenin , tram-chairs@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org, tasveren@rbbn.com, The IESG , draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000974342056eee1cde" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:44:10 -0000 --000000000000974342056eee1cde Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi folks, I've reviewed the new version, but I don't think that the biddown discussion makes much sense. To recap, there are two hashes here: - The hash which you use to store the password with (currently mostly MD5) - The hash you use to compute the MAC (currently SHA-1). First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a great choice here, though SHA-1 isn't a great choice either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the like. With that said, there's no sensible biddown attack on that hash because it's a per-server feature, not a per-transaction feature. So, as long as the server has MD5-hashed passwords, the situation is bad. The second topic is the hash used to compute the MAC. However, I don't see how this gives you sensible biddown protection because that hash is also used to compute MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has compromised a MAC which the server supports will quite likely be able to forge a MAC over the transcript as well. This is, I suppose, potentially useful as a defense against some other weakness (e.g., version #), but I don't really see how the current design helps against attacks on the MAC. You might think that there was a MAC which was easier to reverse to find the original password, but the defense you have here doesn't help with that because the on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the client as a MAC oracle for any MAC the client supports. So, I still don't understand what this is supposed to do. Happy to have a call if you think that helps -Ekr On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo < Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote: > Marc, Eric, > > what is the status of this discussion? > > Thanks, > > Gonzalo > > On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin > > wrote: > > > > On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin < > petithug@acm.org > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>>> For a request or indication message, the agent MUST > include the > > >>>> USERNAME, MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and MESSAGE-INTEGRITY > > >> attributes > > >>>> in the message unless the agent knows from an external > indication > > >>>> which message integrity algorithm is supported by both > agents. In > > >>>> this case either MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or > MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST > > >>>> be included in addition to USERNAME. The HMAC for the > MESSAGE- > > >>> > > >>> This text appears to conflict with S 7.3 of 5245-bis, which says: > > >> > > >> [text missing] > > >> > > >> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still referencing RFC5389, so the procedure > for > > >> stunbis does not apply. > > >> > > > > > > I hear what you're saying, but publishing two documents at the > same time > > > which > > > make contrary recommendations about the same basic protocol is > un-good. > > > > Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have rfc5245bis using stunbis > > and have them updating their text, more than adding some tortuous > > text in stunbis? > > > > > > > > > > >>> The STUN usage must specify which transport protocol is > used, and > > >> how > > >>>> the agent determines the IP address and port of the > recipient. > > >>>> Section 8 describes a DNS-based method of determining the > IP > > >> address > > >>>> and port of a server that a usage may elect to use. STUN > may be > > >> used > > >>>> with anycast addresses, but only with UDP and in usages > where > > >>>> authentication is not used. > > >>> > > >>> Why this restriction? You should be able to use anycast with > long-term > > >>> AUTH for (say) TURN. > > >> > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/ > msg03582.html > > > > >> > > >> I think that the decision of permitting Anycast should be left to > each > > >> STUN Usage. Basic STUN Usage does not use authentication and use > only a > > >> one round trip for the Binding transaction, so Unicast can be > used. > > >> > > > > > >> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say something about that, so I > added a > > >> new bullet point in Section 13: > > >> > > >> o If Anycast addresses can be used for the server in case TCP > or > > >> TLS-over-TCP, or authentication are used. > > >> > > > > > > Are you leaving this text in? That seems very confusing. > > > > In isolation yes, but I think it makes sense which the text before > > the bullet points: > > > > A STUN usage defines how STUN is actually utilized -- when to send > > requests, what to do with the responses, and which optional > > procedures defined here (or in an extension to STUN) are to be > used. > > A usage also defines: > > > > [...] > > > > o If Anycast addresses can be used for the server in case TCP or > > TLS-over-TCP, or authentication are used. > > > > > > What is the need for the restriction at all. > > > > > > > > >>>> transaction over UDP or DTLS-over-UDP is also considered > failed if > > >>>> there has been a hard ICMP error [RFC1122]. For example, > assuming > > >> an > > >>>> RTO of 500ms, requests would be sent at times 0 ms, 500 > ms, 1500 > > >> ms, > > >>>> 3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, and 31500 ms. If the client > has not > > >>>> received a response after 39500 ms, the client will > consider the > > >>>> transaction to have timed out. > > >>> > > >>> I note that these recommendations now seem crazily long. I > assume the > > >>> WG had consensus on this, but I wanted to note it. > > >> > > >> Not just the WG, also the IESG that approved RFC 5389 too as, but > for the > > >> addition of "or DTLS-over-UDP", this is the same text than in RFC > 5389. > > >> > > > > > > Yes, I know. My point is that while they might have bee sensible > when > > > 5389 was published they *now* seem crazily long. Did the WG > explicitly > > > decide not to update them? > > > > No, nobody ever suggested that there was an issue there. > > > > > > OK, well, this seems like it should be considered, then, because this > > doesn't > > match modern practice. > > > > > > > > > This would be good to explain. > > > > New text: > > > > [...] > > containing the subjectAltName of that certificate. The test on > the > > MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute indicates that the transaction > is > > authenticated and that the client implements this specification > and > > so can process the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN attribute. > > > > > > All right. > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> o What authentication and message-integrity mechanisms > are used. > > >>>> > > >>>> o The considerations around manual vs. automatic key > derivation > > >> for > > >>>> the integrity mechanism, as discussed in [RFC4107]. > > >>>> > > >>>> o What mechanisms are used to distinguish STUN messages > from other > > >>> > > >>> Why is this required? It seems like that's a generic STUN > feature. > > >> > > >> That text is identical to the text in RFC 5389. RFC 5764/7983 is > one such > > >> mechanism, but there is nothing that prevent another protocol > stack to use > > >> a different mechanism (inference, shim, etc...) > > >> > > > > > > But ultimately no matter what the other protocol provides for > demux, STUN > > > has its > > > own demux. > > > > In fact I think that the reason for that item was because > > FINGERPRINT can also be used to demux STUN traffic, but it is > > optional. So an STUN Usage needs to tell if FINGERPRINT is > > mandatory (like in ICE). > > > > > > This should be explained. > > > > > > >>> > > >>>> that is not readily subject to offline dictionary attacks. > > >>>> Protection of the channel itself, using TLS or DTLS, > mitigates > > >> these > > >>>> attacks. > > >>>> > > >>>> STUN supports both MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and > > MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, > > >>>> which is subject to bid down attacks by an on-path > attacker. > > >>> > > >>> By an on-path attacker who can forge HMAC-SHA1 in real-time? > > That's a > > >>> pretty serious adversary, so you should clarify here > > >>> > > >> > > >> New text: > > >> > > >> STUN supports both MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and > MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, > > >> which is subject to bid down attacks by an on-path attacker > that > > >> would strip the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute leaving > > only the > > >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and exploiting a potential > > vulnerability. > > >> Protection of the channel itself, using TLS or DTLS, mitigates > > these > > >> attacks. Timely removal of the support of MESSAGE-INTEGRITY > in a > > >> future version of STUN is necessary. > > >> > > > > > > I still don't understand the capabilities you seem to believe the > > attacker > > > has. > > > Can you describe the exact attack. > > > > > > > 1. Vulnerability is found in HMAC-SHA1 > > 2. Client Alice still supports M-I and M-I-256, does not know what > > version of STUN server Bob supports and so send both. > > 3. On-path attacker removes M-I-256. > > 5. stunbis server Bob thinks that Alice is an RFC 5389 client and > > continue with that protocol. > > > > > > This seems like an extremely weak attack. In general, any protocol of > > this type is as strong > > as the weakest integrity algorithm it supports, so it's not that the > > protocol has a downgrade > > attack, but rather that the minimum algorithm supported is one you don't > > trust as much > > as you might like. > > > > -Ekr > > > > > > -- > > Marc Petit-Huguenin > > Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org > > Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org org> > > Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug > > > > > > > --000000000000974342056eee1cde Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

I've reviewed = the new version, but I don't think that the biddown discussion makes mu= ch sense.

To recap, there are two hashes here:

- The hash which you use to store the password with (= currently mostly MD5)
- The hash you use to compute the MAC (curr= ently SHA-1).

First, let's stipulate that = MD5 isn't a great choice here, though SHA-1 isn't a great choice
either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the like. With that said, = there's no sensible
biddown attack on that hash because it= 9;s a per-server feature, not a per-transaction
feature. So, as l= ong as the server has MD5-hashed passwords, the situation is bad.

The second topic is the hash used to compute the MAC. Howev= er, I don't see how
this gives you sensible biddown protectio= n because that hash is also used to compute
MAC over the negotiat= ion: an attacker who has compromised a MAC which the server
suppo= rts will quite likely be able to forge a MAC over the transcript as well. T= his is,
I suppose, potentially useful as a defense against some o= ther weakness (e.g.,
version #), but I don't really see how t= he current design helps against attacks on the
MAC.
You might think that there was a MAC which was easier to revers= e to find the original
password, but the defense you have here do= esn't help with that because the
on-path attacker can do a bi= d-down and use the client as a MAC oracle for
any MAC the client = supports.

So, I still don't understand what th= is is supposed to do. Happy to have a call if you
think that help= s

-Ekr



On M= on, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camar= illo@ericsson.com> wrote:
M= arc, Eric,

what is the status of this discussion?

Thanks,

Gonzalo

On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org
> <mailto:petithug@acm.org>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc P= etit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org = <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For a request = or indication message, the agent MUST include the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 USERNAME, MESS= AGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> attributes
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the message= unless the agent knows from an external indication
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which message = integrity algorithm is supported by both agents.=C2=A0 In
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this case eith= er MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be included in= addition to USERNAME.=C2=A0 The HMAC for the MESSAGE-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> This text appears to conflict with S 7= .3 of 5245-bis, which says:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> [text missing]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still referencing RF= C5389, so the procedure for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> stunbis does not apply.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I hear what you're saying, but publishing = two documents at the same time
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> which
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> make contrary recommendations about the same b= asic protocol is un-good.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have rfc524= 5bis using stunbis
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and have them updating their text, more than adding= some tortuous
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text in stunbis?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STUN usage mus= t specify which transport protocol is used, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the agent dete= rmines the IP address and port of the recipient.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 8 desc= ribes a DNS-based method of determining the IP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and port of a = server that a usage may elect to use.=C2=A0 STUN may be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> used
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with anycast a= ddresses, but only with UDP and in usages where
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication= is not used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Why this restriction? You should be ab= le to use anycast with long-term
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg03582.html=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https:= //www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg03582.html&= gt;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> I think that the decision of permitting An= ycast should be left to each
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> STUN Usage.=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does no= t use authentication and use only a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> one round trip for the Binding transaction= , so Unicast can be used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say som= ething about that, so I added a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> new bullet point in Section 13:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses = can be used for the server in case TCP or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS-over-TCP, or= authentication are used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Are you leaving this text in? That seems very = confusing.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In isolation yes, but I think it makes sense which = the text before
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the bullet points:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0A STUN usage defines how STUN is actua= lly utilized -- when to send
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0requests, what to do with the response= s, and which optional
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures defined here (or in an exte= nsion to STUN) are to be used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0A usage also defines:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be us= ed for the server in case TCP or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or authenticatio= n are used.
>
>
> What is the need for the restriction at all.
>
> =C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction ov= er UDP or DTLS-over-UDP is also considered failed if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there has been= a hard ICMP error [RFC1122].=C2=A0 For example, assuming
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RTO of 500ms, = requests would be sent at times 0 ms, 500 ms, 1500
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> ms,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3500 ms, 7500 = ms, 15500 ms, and 31500 ms.=C2=A0 If the client has not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 received a res= ponse after 39500 ms, the client will consider the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction to= have timed out.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> I note that these recommendations now = seem crazily long. I assume the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> WG had consensus on this, but I wanted= to note it.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> Not just the WG, also the IESG that approv= ed RFC 5389 too as, but for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> addition of "or DTLS-over-UDP", = this is the same text than in RFC 5389.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Yes, I know. My point is that while they might= have bee sensible when
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 5389 was published they *now* seem crazily lon= g. Did the WG explicitly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> decide not to update them?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, nobody ever suggested that there was an issue t= here.
>
>
> OK, well, this seems like it should be considered, then, because this<= br> > doesn't
> match modern practice.
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> This would be good to explain.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0New text:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0containing the subjectAltName of that = certificate.=C2=A0 The test on the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute ind= icates that the transaction is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0authenticated and that the client impl= ements this specification and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0so can process the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN at= tribute.
>
>
> All right.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What a= uthentication and message-integrity mechanisms are used.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The co= nsiderations around manual vs. automatic key derivation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t= he integrity mechanism, as discussed in [RFC4107].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What m= echanisms are used to distinguish STUN messages from other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> Why is this required? It seems like th= at's a generic STUN feature.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> That text is identical to the text in RFC = 5389.=C2=A0 RFC 5764/7983 is one such
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> mechanism, but there is nothing that preve= nt another protocol stack to use
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> a different mechanism (inference, shim, et= c...)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> But ultimately no matter what the other protoc= ol provides for demux, STUN
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> has its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> own demux.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact I think that the reason for that item was b= ecause
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FINGERPRINT can also be used to demux STUN traffic,= but it is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0optional.=C2=A0 So an STUN Usage needs to tell if F= INGERPRINT is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mandatory (like in ICE).
>
>
> This should be explained.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is not re= adily subject to offline dictionary attacks.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Protection of = the channel itself, using TLS or DTLS, mitigates
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUN supports = both MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is subje= ct to bid down attacks by an on-path attacker.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> By an on-path attacker who can forge H= MAC-SHA1 in real-time?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That's a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>> pretty serious adversary, so you shoul= d clarify here
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>> New text:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUN supports both MESSAGE-IN= TEGRITY and MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is subject to bid down = attacks by an on-path attacker that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would strip the MESSAGE-INTEG= RITY-SHA256 attribute leaving
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute a= nd exploiting a potential
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vulnerability.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Protection of the channel its= elf, using TLS or DTLS, mitigates
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.=C2=A0 Timely removal= of the support of MESSAGE-INTEGRITY in a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 future version of STUN is nec= essary.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I still don't understand the capabilities = you seem to believe the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacker
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> has.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Can you describe the exact attack.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Vulnerability is found in HMAC-SHA1
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Client Alice still supports M-I and M-I-256, doe= s not know what
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0version of STUN server Bob supports and so send bot= h.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. On-path attacker removes M-I-256.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05. stunbis server Bob thinks that Alice is an RFC 5= 389 client and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0continue with that protocol.
>
>
> This seems like an extremely weak attack. In general, any protocol of<= br> > this type is as strong
> as the weakest integrity algorithm it supports, so it's not that t= he
> protocol has a downgrade
> attack, but rather that the minimum algorithm supported is one you don= 't
> trust as much
> as you might like.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Marc Petit-Huguenin
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org <https://marc.petit-huguenin.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.linkedin.com/in/pet= ithug>
>
>

--000000000000974342056eee1cde-- From nobody Mon Jun 18 10:45:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E137130F2B; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:45:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pOyAzS7Hjvyy; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC03D130EE2; Mon, 18 Jun 2018 10:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Orochi.local (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w5IHj611092905 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:45:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be Orochi.local To: Gonzalo Camarillo , Marc Petit-Huguenin , The IESG Cc: tram-chairs@ietf.org, Tolga Asveren , draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org References: <152403138853.31946.14807823535362928987.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <27cb2f70-d907-b61f-bb5a-6b19053238fe@petit-huguenin.org> <1e8cd5de-06de-6745-fc4d-d15fcdd0b4d9@petit-huguenin.org> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <5ff10fb0-301e-5d97-01b0-f15296bae0d3@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 12:45:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:45:33 -0000 Gonzalo: TL;DR -- unless someone can find evidence indicating what the WG intended, I believe we are waiting on you and Simon. I had two responses in my most recent message. I presume the first should be uncontroversial. The second point pertains to how the working group intended to treat IP addresses in STUNS URIs. The document right now is ambiguous and self-contradictory. If this has been discussed in the past, then the document simply needs to be updated to reflect the outcome of that conversation. If not, then I believe the WG needs to have a conversation about what is intended. As it stands, the document will lead to various notions about whether (and how) IP addresses can be used, which will be an interop nightmare. /a On 6/18/18 05:41, Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > Marc, Adam, > > what is the status of this discussion? > > Thanks, > > Gonzalo > > On 21/05/2018 9:11 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >> Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. Two responses below >> -- everything else looks good. >> >> On 5/3/18 6:37 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >>> On 04/23/2018 03:37 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> §17.3.1: >>>>> >>>>>>   IANA is requested to update the names for attributes 0x0002, 0x0003, >>>>>>   0x0004, 0x0005, 0x0007, and 0x000B, and the reference from RFC 5389 >>>>>>   to RFC-to-be for the following STUN methods: >>>>> ... >>>>>>   0x0003: (Reserved; prior to [RFC5389] this was CHANGE-REQUEST) >>>>> The attribute 0x0003 is registered by RFC 5780, and should not be >>>>> removed by this document. >>>> Fixed. >> >> Thanks for the change, but the new text still asks IANA to update the >> table so that 0x0003 points to *this* document, instead of continuing to >> point to RFC 5780. Since this document does not do anything with >> CHANGE-REQUEST, this update does not seem correct. >> >> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> §6.2.3 says: >>>>> >>>>>>   Alternatively, a >>>>>>   client MAY be configured with a set of IP addresses that are >>>>>> trusted; >>>>>>   if a certificate is received that identifies one of those IP >>>>>>   addresses, the client considers the identity of the server to be >>>>>>   verified. >>>>> Presumably, this means the server supplies a certificate with >>>>> SubjectAltName >>>>> containing an iPAddress? Please add text to clarify whether that's the >>>>> intention. >>>>> >>>>> If that *is* the intended meaning, then this behavior in §8.1 seems >>>>> unnecessarily restrictive: >>>>> >>>>>>   A "stuns" URI >>>>>>   containing an IP address MUST be rejected, unless the domain name is >>>>>>   provided by the same mechanism that provided the STUN URI, and that >>>>>>   domain name can be passed to the verification code. >>>>> Presumably, this is done because certs with iPAddress-form >>>>> SubjectAltNames are >>>>> pretty rare (although CAB Forum baseline requirements do explicitly >>>>> allow >>>>> their issuance) -- but if the text in §6.2.3 is based on allowing >>>>> the use of >>>>> such certs in a TURN deployment, then it seems that URI resolution >>>>> should be >>>>> also. >>>>> >>>> I am not sure what was the intent there, so I'll work on that later. >>> We addressed all the other comments, but it would be great if you >>> could suggest some text to address that one. >> I'm not sure what was meant either! >> >> I think we need to untangle what the working group meant to say >> regarding "trusted IP addresses," the way this protocol is intended to >> use certs, and whether the prohibition on using IP addresses in "stuns" >> URIs derives from cert handling or if it has a completely different >> rationale behind it; and, if the former, ensure that those things that >> are prohibited or allowed in certs are similarly prohibited or allowed >> in URIs. >> >> I can suggest some *behavior*, but unless there is some record of what >> the WG meant, any such behavior would need to be discussed by the >> working group, and a consensus would need to be declared by the chairs. >> >> >> /a >>