From nobody Mon Feb 4 13:09:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD5A124B0C; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: tram-chairs@ietf.org, simon.perreault@logmein.com, tram@ietf.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154931454080.28785.9161224654237274362.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:09:00 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] tram - Not having a session at IETF 104 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 21:09:01 -0000 Simon Perreault, a chair of the tram working group, indicated that the tram working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 104. This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. 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Thu, 14 Feb 2019 03:35:42 -0700 Received: from BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (20.178.233.91) by BYAPR16MB2455.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (20.177.227.84) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1601.22; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:35:42 +0000 Received: from BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a92f:410f:4068:d183]) by BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a92f:410f:4068:d183%5]) with mapi id 15.20.1622.016; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:35:42 +0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Removing Permissionless ICE relay support from turnbis draft Thread-Index: AdTETftl2mcoSJVDQoiDoDOnmNuC5g== Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:35:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.6 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR16MB2790A7816E3F66518BF8E679EA670BYAPR16MB2790namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 309b5d07-1cce-4bf1-b77b-08d692682b7c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2019 10:35:42.1780 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR16MB2455 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6482> : inlines <7017> : streams <1813003> : uri <2796149> Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Removing Permissionless ICE relay support from turnbis draft X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:36:23 -0000 --_000_BYAPR16MB2790A7816E3F66518BF8E679EA670BYAPR16MB2790namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The Permissionless ICE relay support added to the turnbis draft has hit a r= oadblock during the security review by Eric, Martin and Christian. The secu= rity attack identified is as follows: The TURN client currently expects that it will not receive anything via the server from a peer that it did not explicitly permit. Based on that assumption, the client could assume that receiving such an unsolicited packets indicates compromise of either the local network or the server itself, and it could reasonably decide not to trust the local network or the server to transport its communication. In order to address the above threat additional changes are required to the= draft to incorporate one of the following proposals: [1] Martin suggested to add an extension that the client can include when c= reating the binding to request this behavior, and a signal in the response = that indicates that this configuration has been applied. [2] Dan proposed to create permissions based on STUN username to avoid the = permissionless problem in the TRAM mailing list, see https://mailarchive.ie= tf.org/arch/msg/tram/T66px9mcjcqyvBypHpnMutKOEfk). [3] Brandon and Justin had submitted a draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00) to introduce a new type of TURN per= mission that will allow any ICE connectivity check message that contains th= e offerer's ufrag value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over= the associated TURN tunnel. Since it too late in the process to discuss and adopt one of these proposal= s, we are planning to remove this optimization from turnbis draft. If there is interest in the WG to pursue Permissionless ICE relay support, = a new draft can be published. Cheers, -Tiru --_000_BYAPR16MB2790A7816E3F66518BF8E679EA670BYAPR16MB2790namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

 

The Permissionless ICE relay support added to the tu= rnbis draft has hit a roadblock during the security review by Eric, Martin = and Christian. The security attack identified is as follows:

 

The TURN client currently expects that it will not r= eceive anything via the

server from a peer that it did not explicitly permit= . Based on that

assumption, the client could assume that receiving s= uch an unsolicited

packets indicates compromise of either the local net= work or the server

itself, and it could reasonably decide not to trust = the local network or

the server to transport its communication.

 

In order to address the above threat additional chan= ges are required to the draft to incorporate one of the following proposals= :

 

[1] Martin suggested to add an extension that the cl= ient can include when creating the binding to request this behavior, and a = signal in the response that indicates that this configuration has been appl= ied.

 

[2] Dan proposed to create permissions based on STUN= username to avoid the permissionless problem in the TRAM mailing list, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tram/T66px9mcjcqyvBypHpnMutKOEfk)= .

 

[3] Brandon and Justin had submitted a draft (h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-williams-tram-ufrag-permission-00) to = introduce a new type of TURN permission that will allow any ICE connectivity check message that contains the offer= er's ufrag value to be accepted on a relay address for delivery over the as= sociated TURN tunnel.

 

Since it too late in the process to discuss and a= dopt one of these proposals, we are planning to remove this optimization fr= om turnbis draft.

 

If there is interest in the WG to pursue Permissionl= ess ICE relay support, a new draft can be published.

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

--_000_BYAPR16MB2790A7816E3F66518BF8E679EA670BYAPR16MB2790namp_-- From nobody Sun Feb 17 22:40:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BE81228B7; Sun, 17 Feb 2019 22:39:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tram@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tram@ietf.org Message-ID: <155047199970.4071.16859496004228023944@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 22:39:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:40:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF. Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Alan Johnston Philip Matthews Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2019-02-17 Abstract: If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single relay address. The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, though it also can be used without ICE. This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 11838983-a217-43e5-d0f7-08d6956c2ae6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2019 06:41:52.6829 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR16MB2597 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6484> : inlines <7018> : streams <1813369> : uri <2798130> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 06:42:00 -0000 This revision reverts the Permissionless ICE relay optimization updates. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: tram On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:10 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tram@ietf.org > Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21.txt >=20 > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link= s or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is = safe. >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IE= TF. >=20 > Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay= Extensions > to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) > Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy > Alan Johnston > Philip Matthews > Jonathan Rosenberg > Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21.txt > Pages : 84 > Date : 2019-02-17 >=20 > Abstract: > If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can > be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts > (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use > the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication > relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal > Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the > operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using > the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in > that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a > single relay address. >=20 > The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE > (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, > though it also can be used without ICE. >=20 > This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-21 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Mon Feb 18 05:17:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1CB130F0B for ; 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Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:17:05 +0000 From: Gonzalo Camarillo To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" , "Spencer Dawkins at IETF" CC: Simon Perreault , Adam Roach , IESG , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "Asveren, Tolga" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUx4w+6tf3mSlesUyeDuXSHJlaMg== Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:17:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153834237082.13405.1228259718885034461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2EE82D0D-5024-4C71-8F25-0506D5530814@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [89.166.49.243] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d718e420-54c2-47e6-bb82-08d695a36109 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600110)(711020)(4605104)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d718e420-54c2-47e6-bb82-08d695a36109 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2019 13:17:05.8558 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB3279 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SaUwTQRTHmd1tuxAbhnK9IKDWmBAUBIK6McbzSz2j4YuSJlBlhUI50lYC fqHRIIiCHCUR5JJwYzk8EEzVUBRFLCoRBCNSoIj1BE04wqEsi4nffm/+v5k3bzI0KTEKPGhl nJZVxylUUqEDVXDyfpJfSFO0PGCgyJMxLpaLmI6S9Uyx/hhzfSGHZCotJpKp0htJprF6WsRU z9UKmUnDa+Fee5l+vlkgayscEskqKuYIWWdfCykrbLNSMmNRLjouDHXYFcGqlImseuvucIeo SWs/SkiTJvUtFgt0KNsjA9nTgIPhWfs1lIEcaAl+gqCzy0rwxTSCtLePSc6S4AoCzEVaLqBw NglZTXdEvJVLQH3Nb5IvRhGMPhpcPoymhZiB9Prt3G4XrIWpqSIB55C4mYCymnEBFzjjSOi3 6UleioLLF6cpnv2hJf/PClN4E1wYLRdxLMZyGH8zI+SbzVBg6ahakRB2g5kXtwiOSewO762l BD8dhgrjK5JnV7CNLQl4XwGWVMPq+gYw/xhZ9b2gt/QK4vkofC5YpLhmgAcRDHTZKD7whRuf zIgPLjlC/3T+ahADeS05JDc+YE9o/bWDd6YE0D2hQ/xLslBtSF3t4A11mSNUNtpS+N/FeQ6A nz2lJM+boerm1xUWYyfoKrBSZYiqQ64aVnM6NjIoyJ9VK89oNPFx/nGs9jZa/lPtd+cDWpFt Yp8JYRpJ14gf1EfLJQJFoiY51oSAJqUu4qzG5SVxhCL5PKuOD1OfU7EaE1pLU1J38YLESS7B kQotG8OyCaz6X0rQ9h46dC85ONCcORxPbxtN/nJAZqhMUenYlPkSvaM5fPbpw4N1PUnr6np8 joyndpkmxjozZj/alk6A3Z6hEIVr5tkaP3/nby1+WuNIwyn1u432stBuKrP2eaJYSfjM0cqU KRfnhua8/UGhXoeG63uh76XUzfD96ofD6UkJ4952lrCddlJKE6UI9CXVGsVf2EcttU8DAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:17:12 -0000 Hi Gonzalo S,=0A= =0A= what is the current status of this?=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Gonzalo=0A= =0A= On 18-Jan-19 20:12, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:=0A= > Thanks, Spencer. =A0We will proceed with=A0bringing the definition of=0A= > PADDING into the current draft.=0A= > =0A= > Cheers,=0A= > =0A= > Gonzalo=0A= > =0A= >> On Jan 14, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF=0A= >> >= =0A= >> wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> Hi, Gonzalo,=0A= >>=0A= >> On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 8:05 AM Gonzalo Camarillo=0A= >> > > wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> What is the next step here?=0A= >>=0A= >> Gonzalo=0A= >>=0A= >> On 13-Dec-18 16:27, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:=0A= >> > Hi, Simon,=A0=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> > On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 7:12 AM Simon Perreault=0A= >> > > =A0> >> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0- Pull the definition of PADDING into this document. Dec= lare=0A= >> that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0we've gathered sufficient experience with PADDING that i= t now=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0warrants being elevated to Standards Track. That is, it'= s been=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0proven to work.____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0__=A0__=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0This is plausible. It solves the first-order problem.=A0= ____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0__=A0__=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0I note that=A0RFC 5780 defined a number of new attribute= s. Is=0A= >> pulling=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0PADDING forward the right thing to do, or are there othe= rs that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0would also qualify (so, perhaps a status change for=A0RF= C=0A= >> 5780)?=A0____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0__=A0__=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0I don=92t think the others have been implemented much, s= o=0A= >> that=92s why I=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0think only pulling PADDING makes sense. If I remember=0A= >> correctly, I=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0only implemented PADDING in Numb (I don=92t have access = to the=0A= >> source=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0code anymore so can=92t be sure).____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0__=A0__=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0Anyone else with an opinion?=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> > That's helpful information.=A0=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> > We should wait for anyone else with information to weigh in, but= =0A= >> if it's=0A= >> > correct that the other experimental attributes haven't been=0A= >> implemented=0A= >> > and deployed in a way that would provide guidance for=0A= >> standards-track=0A= >> > use, I think defining PADDING in this document makes more sense=0A= >> to me=0A= >> > than adding a downref to an experimental RFC that we wouldn't=0A= >> consider=0A= >> > if the reference was using anything except PADDING.=A0=A0=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> No one has objected in the past month (which included holidays, but I=0A= >> would have asked this question with a week or two timeout, if the=0A= >> holidays had not been coming up).=A0=0A= >>=0A= >> I think bringing the definition of PADDING into the current draft is=0A= >> the right thing to do.=A0=0A= >>=0A= >> If TRAM people thought that the other experimental attributes in RFC=0A= >> 5780 don't have enough implementation experience to justify moving=0A= >> them past Experimental status, changing the status of RFC 5780 to=0A= >> Historic might be appropriate at some point, but that's not related to= =0A= >> the conversation we're having now, and I haven't asked a question=0A= >> about that, so I'll ignore that for now.=0A= >>=0A= >> Thanks for your help with this.=0A= >>=0A= >> Spencer=0A= >> =A0=0A= >>=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> > Thanks,=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> > Spencer=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0__=A0__=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0Simon____=0A= >> >=A0=0A= >>=0A= > =0A= From nobody Mon Feb 18 05:19:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59292128B14 for ; 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Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:18:42 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB5421.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1559:7df1:b61a:4391]) by VI1PR07MB5421.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::1559:7df1:b61a:4391%2]) with mapi id 15.20.1643.008; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:18:42 +0000 From: Gonzalo Camarillo To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" , Eric Rescorla CC: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "Asveren, Tolga" , IESG , "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUx4x3Akxfdr43yEypZttwA368ow== Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:18:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152390863222.19652.10310304989315386136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02569943-db8f-654e-7322-49bc1f1a1163@acm.org> <235b838f-2800-2cd0-8b01-947e70837619@ericsson.com> <472563ee-5fc3-655d-8e31-138cc774e608@acm.org> <97c561a7-c33a-6121-00c4-09cd11646b98@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:18:55 -0000 Hi Gonzalo S,=0A= =0A= what is the status of this one?=0A= =0A= Thanks,=0A= =0A= Gonzalo=0A= =0A= On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:=0A= > Totally agree, Ekr. =A0Marc and I are meeting to come up with a proposal= =0A= > but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once and=0A= > for all. =A0We=92ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3 weeks.=0A= > =0A= > Cheers,=0A= > =0A= > Gonzalo=0A= > =0A= > =0A= >> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla > > wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I step= =0A= >> down, I should think.=0A= >>=0A= >> -Ekr=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo=0A= >> > > wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!=0A= >>=0A= >> Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to this?= =0A= >>=0A= >> Gonzalo=0A= >>=0A= >> On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:=0A= >> > Hi, Gonzalo,=A0=0A= >> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla > =0A= >> > >> wrote:=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0Not really. I have not received any response to my mail = of=0A= >> Oct 23.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're= =0A= >> reaching=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0the limits of what can be accomplished by email.=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=0A= >> > Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my= =0A= >> > understanding.=A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> > I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on=0A= >> November=0A= >> > 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a=0A= >> reason=0A= >> > to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.=0A= >> >=0A= >> > Thanks,=0A= >> >=0A= >> > Spencer=0A= >> > =A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0-Ekr=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0> =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0> >> wrote:=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Hi Spencer,=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0what is the status of this? Are the authors and = the document=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0shepherd=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?= =0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> =A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballo= t/=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Cheers,=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Gonzalo=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrot= e:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> Hi, Marc,=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Hug= uenin=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> =0A= >> >>> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Hi Spencer,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla q= uestions on=0A= >> 2018-10-07=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0following=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0an in-person meeting with my co-auth= or, but never=0A= >> got a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0response=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0back.=A0 Because there was no change= proposed by=0A= >> Eric I went=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ahead and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0published -19 a couple of weeks afte= r that, with=0A= >> the text=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0agreed in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0response to Adam's and Benjamin's co= mments.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> =A0=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.ht= ml=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.= =A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> It sounds like you did the right thing, and th= at Eric=0A= >> has now=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0responded,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> which is also the right thing to do.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> Thanks for helping me understand.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> Spencer=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> =A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins= at IETF wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> Hi, Marc,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> I see that a -19 has been submitte= d, but didn't=0A= >> see a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0reply from=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Eric in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> this thread. Do you think that you= 've converged?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> (I saw an offer of a conference ca= ll, so thought an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0out-of-band=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> conversation might have happened)= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> Thanks,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> Spencer=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Mar= c Petit-Huguenin=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> Hi Eric,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> Please see inline.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Resc= orla wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, = Marc=0A= >> Petit-Huguenin=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> Hi Eric,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> Apologies for the delay in gett= ing back to that.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> I think that there is some misu= nderstanding=0A= >> in what=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0STUNbis is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0trying to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> do, so please see my comments i= nline.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Re= scorla wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> Hi folks,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> I've reviewed the new version,= but I don't think=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that the biddown=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> discussion makes much sense.= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> To recap, there are two hashes= here:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> - The hash which you use to st= ore the=0A= >> password with=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(currently=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0mostly=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> MD5)=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> - The hash you use to compute = the MAC=0A= >> (currently SHA-1).=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD= 5 isn't a=0A= >> great choice=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0here,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0though SHA-1=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> isn't a great choice=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> either for pwd hashing You wan= t Argon or the=0A= >> like.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0With that said,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> there's=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> no sensible=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> biddown attack on that hash be= cause it's a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0per-server feature,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0not a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> per-transaction=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> feature. So, as long as the se= rver has=0A= >> MD5-hashed=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0passwords, the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> situation=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> is bad.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> In no place in STUNbis we are p= roposing to=0A= >> use SHA-1=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0for password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> encryption, so I am not sure wh= ere that come=0A= >> from.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0What we=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0propose is:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but = my criticisms=0A= >> apply=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0equally there.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.= =A0 Our attempts=0A= >> to add=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0other passwords=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> encryption mechanisms were denied= .=A0 It is true that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Argon2 was=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0not in that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> list (in our defense Argon2 was n= ot known=0A= >> before July=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A02015), but=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0I do not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> see why the WG would have accepte= d that one=0A= >> over the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0others.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Anyway it is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> too late to fix this, as it is my= understanding=0A= >> that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the WG does=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0not have=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> enough energy to reach consensus = on a new password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0algorithm.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Someone can=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> just write a draft adding Argon2 = as password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0encryption, as we=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0will have a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> IANA registry for that.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> - Establish a registry for new = password=0A= >> algorithms=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(section=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A018.5), so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be= added later=0A= >> (but note=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that our own=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> proposals to add more password = algorithms were=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0rejected by the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0working=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> group).=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> - Add a new password algorithm = to that registry,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0namely SHA-256.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> - Register MD5 as an initial pa= ssword=0A= >> algorithm for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0backward=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> compatibility=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> purpose.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> As for the biddown protection i= tself, it is my=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0recollection that it=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> happened more or less like that= :=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBi= s stands at the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0microphone:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CO-EDITOR=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 We added SHA-256 protection for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0passwords=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 in STUNBis.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 SOMEONE (V.O.)=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 As MD5 still need to be=0A= >> supported,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0you need to add=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 protection for bid-down attacks.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING H= IS EYES=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CO-EDITOR=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 OK, I'll work on that.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> Four to eight months has passed= .=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis s= tands at the=0A= >> microphone:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CO-EDITOR=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 We added a nice mechanism to=0A= >> prevent=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0bid-down=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 attacks on passwords.=A0 Any=0A= >> comments?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 THE ROOM=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 (silence)=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 CO-EDITOR=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 Moving on...=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> I don't see how any of this is r= elevant to my=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0technical points=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0above.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> My point was that we, the co-edit= ors, did not=0A= >> decide on=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0adding=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0bid-down=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> protection, someone asked us to d= o so and=0A= >> no-one in the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0WG saw=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0any problem=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> with that.=A0 The reasons that pe= rson wanted that=0A= >> are not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0known to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0us but, as=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> you insist, here's one reason I c= an think of:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> It is a fact that, for operationa= l reasons, a=0A= >> password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0database=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0cannot be=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> re-encrypted at once.=A0 Also for= operational=0A= >> reasons,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the MD5 password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> cannot be immediately removed fro= m the database=0A= >> as soon=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the user=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0submitted=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> a new one.=A0 In fact, and for qu= ite some time, both=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0encrypted=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0variants of=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> the same password may have to be = kept in that=0A= >> database,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0because a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0single=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> user may use a mix of devices, so= me of them=0A= >> that use an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RFC 5389=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0client,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> some that use a STUNbis client.= =A0 It is up to=0A= >> the STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0server owner to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> decide how long the migration to = STUNbis will=0A= >> take and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0when it=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0will be=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389= (i.e. MD5)=0A= >> clients (that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0migration time=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> can be purposely reduced to 0 sec= onds but=0A= >> that's the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0choice and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> responsibility of the owner of th= e server).=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> Meanwhile we still need to be sur= e that if the STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0client is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0implementing=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> STUNbis it unconditionally gets t= he additional=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0protection of the new=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> password encryption algorithm.=A0= That's where=0A= >> the biddown=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protection kicks=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> in, by preventing an online attac= ker to have=0A= >> the server=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0misidentifying a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 cli= ent, by=0A= >> preventing an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0online=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0attacker to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> have the client misidentifying a = STUNbis server=0A= >> as a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RFC 5389=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0server, and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> having both them use the MD5 encr= ypted password=0A= >> instead=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0SHA-256=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> encrypted password, all of that e= asily done by=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0stripping the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0unprotected=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> 401 response of the new STUNbis P= ASSWORD-ALGORITHMS=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0attribute.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> The second topic is the hash u= sed to compute the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0MAC. However,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0I don't=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> see=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> how=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> this gives you sensible biddow= n protection=0A= >> because=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that hash=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0is also=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> used=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> to compute=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an a= ttacker who has=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0compromised a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0MAC which=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> server=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> supports will quite likely be = able to forge=0A= >> a MAC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0over the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0transcript=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> as=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> well. This is,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> I suppose, potentially useful = as a defense=0A= >> against=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0some other=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0weakness=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> (e.g.,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> version #), but I don't really= see how the=0A= >> current=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0design=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0helps against=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> attacks on the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> MAC.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> There is no biddown attack prot= ection for the=0A= >> MAC, as=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0stated in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Section=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> 16.3:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> "The bid-down protection mechan= ism described=0A= >> in this=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0document=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0is new,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 and thus cannot currently pr= otect against a=0A= >> bid-down=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0attack that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 lowers the strength of the h= ash algorithm to=0A= >> HMAC-SHA1."=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> What we put in place is a plan = for *future*=0A= >> versions=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0of STUN to get=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> biddown protection for the MAC.= =A0 That's it,=0A= >> no more,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0no less.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> Yes, but I don't believe that th= is will=0A= >> provide bid-down=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protection for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> MAC in the future for the reason= s I indicate=0A= >> above.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> If you think this does something= useful,=0A= >> please show me an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0example attack=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> and how this fixes it. Note that= it's not=0A= >> generally=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0useful to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0just bid=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> down=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> the MAC itself unless the MAC yo= u bid down to=0A= >> is weak=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0enough to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0exploit=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> some other way.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> I do not know what weaknesses wil= l be=0A= >> discovered in the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0future.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0I am also=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> pretty sure that the cost of not = using that=0A= >> mechanism=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0is very=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0close to 0.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> What I am sure of is that the cos= t of=0A= >> reengineering a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0new biddown=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> protection mechanism if we ever n= eed it will be=0A= >> high.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0We already=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0went=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> through the pains of designing on= e for the password=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0algorithm, so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0why not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> extend it so it can be used in th= e aftermath of the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0next Snowden=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0facepalm=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> moment?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> Again, happy to have a call to w= alk though=0A= >> this if that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> helps.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> -Ekr=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> You might think that there was= a MAC which=0A= >> was easier to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0reverse to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> find=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> the original=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> password, but the defense you = have here=0A= >> doesn't help=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0with that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0because=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-= down and use the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0client as a MAC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0oracle=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> any MAC the client supports.= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> So, I still don't understand w= hat this is=0A= >> supposed=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to do. Happy to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> have a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> call if you=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> think that helps=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> -Ekr=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 A= M, Gonzalo=0A= >> Camarillo <=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com= =0A= >> =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0> =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> >>> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> Marc, Eric,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> what is the status of this di= scussion?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> Thanks,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> Gonzalo=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric R= escorla wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:1= 6 AM, Marc=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Petit-Huguenin <=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> petithug@acm.org =0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> > > >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>>> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0On 04/22/2018 05:2= 2 PM, Eric Rescorla=0A= >> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> On Sun, Apr 22, = 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Petit-Huguenin <=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> petithug@acm.org =0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=0A= >> >>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> wrote:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 Fo= r a request or indication=0A= >> message,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the agent=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0MUST=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> include the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 US= ERNAME,=0A= >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> attributes=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 in= the message unless the agent=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0knows from an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0external=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> indication=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 wh= ich message integrity=0A= >> algorithm is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0supported=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0by both=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> agents.=A0 In=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 th= is case either=0A= >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 be= included in addition to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0USERNAME.=A0 The HMAC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0for the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> MESSAGE-=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> This text appe= ars to conflict with=0A= >> S 7.3 of=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A05245-bis, which=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> says:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> [text missing]= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> Hmm, no, RFC245= bis is still referencing=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RFC5389, so the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> procedure=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> stunbis does no= t apply.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> I hear what you'= re saying, but=0A= >> publishing two=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0documents at the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> same time=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> which=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> make contrary re= commendations about=0A= >> the same=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0basic=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protocol is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> un-good.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0Sure, but wouldn't= it be simpler to have=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0rfc5245bis=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0using stunbis=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0and have them upda= ting their text,=0A= >> more than=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0adding some=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0tortuous=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0text in stunbis?= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 The= STUN usage must specify which=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0transport=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protocol is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> used, and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> how=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 th= e agent determines the IP=0A= >> address=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0and port=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0of the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> recipient.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 Se= ction 8 describes a DNS-based=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0method of=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0determining=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> IP=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> address=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 an= d port of a server that a=0A= >> usage=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0may elect to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0use.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> may be=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> used=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 wi= th anycast addresses, but only=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0with UDP and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0in usages=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> where=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 au= thentication is not used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> Why this restr= iction? You should=0A= >> be able=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to use=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0anycast with=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> long-term=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> AUTH for (say)= TURN.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/cur= rent/=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> msg03582.html=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> msg03582.html>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> I think that th= e decision of=0A= >> permitting Anycast=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0should be left=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> each=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> STUN Usage.=A0 = Basic STUN Usage does=0A= >> not use=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0authentication and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> use=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> only a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> one round trip = for the Binding=0A= >> transaction, so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Unicast can be=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> OTOH, TURN and = ICE should probably say=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0something=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0about that,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> I=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> added a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> new bullet poin= t in Section 13:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 o=A0 If = Anycast addresses can be=0A= >> used for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the server=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0in case=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> TCP=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> or=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0T= LS-over-TCP, or=0A= >> authentication are used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> Are you leaving = this text in? That seems=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0very confusing.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0In isolation yes, = but I think it makes=0A= >> sense=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0which the text=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> before=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0the bullet points:= =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 A STUN usage = defines how STUN is=0A= >> actually=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0utilized --=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0when to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> send=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 requests, wha= t to do with the=0A= >> responses,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0and which=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0optional=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 procedures de= fined here (or in an=0A= >> extension=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to STUN)=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0are to be=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 A usage also = defines:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0[...]=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 o=A0 If Anyca= st addresses can be used=0A= >> for the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0server in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0case TCP=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> or=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0TLS-ov= er-TCP, or authentication=0A= >> are used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> What is the need for the res= triction at all.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 tr= ansaction over UDP or=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0DTLS-over-UDP is also=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> considered=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> failed if=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 th= ere has been a hard ICMP error=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0[RFC1122].=A0 For=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> example,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> assuming=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 RT= O of 500ms, requests would=0A= >> be sent=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0at times=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A00 ms, 500=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> ms, 1500=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> ms,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 35= 00 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A031500 ms.=A0 If the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> client=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> has not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 re= ceived a response after=0A= >> 39500 ms,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the client=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0will=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> consider the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 tr= ansaction to have timed out.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> I note that th= ese recommendations=0A= >> now seem=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0crazily=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0long. I=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> assume the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> WG had consens= us on this, but I=0A= >> wanted to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0note it.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> Not just the WG= , also the IESG that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0approved RFC 5389=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0too as,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> but=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> for the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> addition of "or= DTLS-over-UDP",=0A= >> this is the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0same text=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0than in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> RFC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> 5389.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> Yes, I know. My = point is that while they=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0might have bee=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> sensible=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> when=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> 5389 was publish= ed they *now* seem=0A= >> crazily=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0long. Did=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0the WG=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> explicitly=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> decide not to up= date them?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0No, nobody ever su= ggested that there=0A= >> was an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0issue there.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> OK, well, this seems like it= should be=0A= >> considered,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0then,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0because this=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> doesn't=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> match modern practice.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> This would be go= od to explain.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0New text:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 [...]=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 containing th= e subjectAltName of that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0certificate.=A0=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0The test=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> on=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 MESSAGE-INTEG= RITY-SHA256 attribute=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0indicates that the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> transaction=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 authenticated= and that the client=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0implements this=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> specification=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 so can proces= s the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN=0A= >> attribute.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> All right.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 o= =A0 What authentication and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0message-integrity=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0mechanisms=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> are used.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 o= =A0 The considerations around=0A= >> manual vs.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0automatic key=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> derivation=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0the integrity mechanism, as=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0discussed in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0[RFC4107].=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 o= =A0 What mechanisms are used to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0distinguish STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> messages=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> from other=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> Why is this re= quired? It seems=0A= >> like that's=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a generic=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> feature.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> That text is id= entical to the text=0A= >> in RFC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A05389.=A0 RFC=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A05764/7983=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> one such=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> mechanism, but = there is nothing that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0prevent another=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protocol=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> stack to use=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> a different mec= hanism (inference,=0A= >> shim, etc...)=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> But ultimately n= o matter what the=0A= >> other protocol=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0provides for=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> demux, STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> has its=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> own demux.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0In fact I think th= at the reason for=0A= >> that item=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0was because=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0FINGERPRINT can al= so be used to demux STUN=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0traffic, but=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0it is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0optional.=A0 So an= STUN Usage needs to=0A= >> tell if=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0FINGERPRINT is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0mandatory (like in= ICE).=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> This should be explained.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 th= at is not readily subject to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0offline dictionary=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> attacks.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 Pr= otection of the channel=0A= >> itself,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0using TLS or=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0DTLS,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> mitigates=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> these=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 at= tacks.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 ST= UN supports both=0A= >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-= SHA256,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0 wh= ich is subject to bid down=0A= >> attacks=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0by an on-path=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> attacker.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> By an on-path = attacker who can forge=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0HMAC-SHA1 in=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0real-time?=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0That's a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>> pretty serious= adversary, so you=0A= >> should=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0clarify here=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>> New text:=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 STUN sup= ports both=0A= >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 which is= subject to bid down=0A= >> attacks by=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0an on-path=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0attacker=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> that=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 would st= rip the=0A= >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0attribute=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0leaving=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0only the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 MESSAGE-= INTEGRITY attribute and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0exploiting a potential=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0vulnerability.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 Protecti= on of the channel=0A= >> itself, using=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0TLS or DTLS,=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> mitigates=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0these=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 attacks.= =A0 Timely removal of the=0A= >> support of=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>> in a=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=A0 =A0 future v= ersion of STUN is necessary.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> I still don't un= derstand the=0A= >> capabilities=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0you seem to=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0believe=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0attacker=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> has.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0> Can you describe= the exact attack.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A01. Vulnerability i= s found in HMAC-SHA1=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A02. Client Alice st= ill supports M-I and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0M-I-256, does not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0know=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>> what=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0version of STUN se= rver Bob supports and so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0send both.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A03. On-path attacke= r removes M-I-256.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A05. stunbis server = Bob thinks that=0A= >> Alice is an=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0RFC 5389=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0client and=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0continue with that= protocol.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> This seems like an extremely= weak attack. In=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0general, any=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0protocol of=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> this type is as strong=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> as the weakest integrity alg= orithm it=0A= >> supports, so=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0it's not=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0that the=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> protocol has a downgrade=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> attack, but rather that the = minimum algorithm=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0supported is=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0one you=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>> don't=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> trust as much=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> as you might like.=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>> -Ekr=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>>>>>>=A0 =A0 =A0--=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0>>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0--=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Marc Petit-Huguenin=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org=0A= >> =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> > > =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0> >>=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.or= g=0A= >> =0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=A0 =A0 =A0Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in= /petithug=0A= >> >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0>=0A= >> >=0A= >>=0A= > =0A= From nobody Tue Feb 19 10:06:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE09C130F36; 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d="scan'208";a="521310092" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Feb 2019 18:05:35 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x1JI5YRW027387 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:05:34 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:05:32 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:05:33 -0600 From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" To: Gonzalo Camarillo CC: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" , Eric Rescorla , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , IESG , "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUa0FPQa4RlvmGQ0G0i0rcGeSYLqXoiXoA Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:05:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <152390863222.19652.10310304989315386136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <02569943-db8f-654e-7322-49bc1f1a1163@acm.org> <235b838f-2800-2cd0-8b01-947e70837619@ericsson.com> <472563ee-5fc3-655d-8e31-138cc774e608@acm.org> <97c561a7-c33a-6121-00c4-09cd11646b98@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.150.52.169] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.18, xch-aln-008.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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Dawkins at IETF" , Simon Perreault , Adam Roach , IESG , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "Asveren, Tolga" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUkuV9WRgg08P2B0upj6+dKkdDsqXoPE6A Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:13:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153834237082.13405.1228259718885034461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2EE82D0D-5024-4C71-8F25-0506D5530814@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.150.52.169] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.17, xch-aln-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:53:25 -0800 Subject: Re: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." 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dG86bWFyY0BwZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gICAgPG1haWx0bzptYXJjQHBldGl0LWh1 Z3VlbmluLm9yZz4+IDxtYWlsdG86bWFyY0BwZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gICAgPG1h aWx0bzptYXJjQHBldGl0LWh1Z3VlbmluLm9yZz4NCj4+Pj4+ICAgICAgICAgIDxtYWlsdG86bWFy Y0BwZXRpdC1odWd1ZW5pbi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gICAgPG1haWx0bzptYXJjQHBldGl0LWh1Z3Vlbmlu Lm9yZz4+Pg0KPj4+Pj4gICAgICAgICAgPiAgICAgQmxvZzogaHR0cHM6Ly9tYXJjLnBldGl0LWh1 Z3VlbmluLm9yZw0KPj4+PiAgICA8aHR0cHM6Ly9tYXJjLnBldGl0LWh1Z3VlbmluLm9yZy8+DQo+ Pj4+PiAgICAgICAgICA+ICAgICBQcm9maWxlOiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5saW5rZWRpbi5jb20vaW4v cGV0aXRodWcNCj4+Pj4+ICAgICAgICAgID4NCj4+Pj4+DQo+Pj4+DQo+Pj4NCj4gDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 26 01:43:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB2A129BBF; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 01:43:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tram@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.92.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tram@ietf.org Message-ID: <155117422433.12142.16674184427417755873@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 01:43:44 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-22.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 09:43:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF. Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Alan Johnston Philip Matthews Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-22.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2019-02-26 Abstract: If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single relay address. The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, though it also can be used without ICE. This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-22 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-22 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-22 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Feb 27 22:50:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69145130DEC; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 22:50:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tram@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.92.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tram@ietf.org Message-ID: <155133661739.13891.4240074031824232702@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 22:50:17 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23.txt X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 06:50:17 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF. Title : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Authors : Tirumaleswar Reddy Alan Johnston Philip Matthews Jonathan Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23.txt Pages : 84 Date : 2019-02-27 Abstract: If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts (peers). In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication relay. This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using the relay. TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single relay address. The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal, though it also can be used without ICE. This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/