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From: Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
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Subject: [tram] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Gonzalo Camarillo has requested publication of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the TRAM working group.

Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:10:07 -0800
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To: Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>,  Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>,  "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Thanks for the call yesterday.

First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for password
hashing:

  Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern
  standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search
  by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the
  hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2
  [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/] are
  available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.


Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here's a stylized version
of the protocol:

Client                                                  Server

Hello ->
                                          <- Nonce, Algorithms
HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) ->
                                 <- HMAC-H1(H2(Password), ...)

Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashing
function respectively.

Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and that
both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacker to
complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, if
the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still strong,
then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. This
property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.

However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.

First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly support
one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they support
SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows
an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.


Client                      Attacker                   Server

Hello ->
                            Hello ->
                                      <- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z
                <- Nonce, Alg=3DZ
Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) ->
                        Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))

The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is
authenticating the transaction, and if you can't trust it to do that,
you can't trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either.


During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful to
have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don't think
that that's true either. First, remember that the purpose of H2 is to
prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learning
the user's true password. This is not about defending the server from
attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but about
preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have been
reused on another site.

Now, it's also possible to brute-force the user's password just from
the protocol transcript: if you capture the client's first message
with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep
trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a
passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are
fast.

A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the
problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256)
and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a
bid-down defense in which it modifies the server's first message to
just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable
message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication
transaction from completing, but that's not necessary for this
attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from
the message it has. To make this work, you would need something
like a PAKE, which this is not.

Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one
which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually
phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticates
with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort
of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be
active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about
the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just
get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a
not very useful defense.

I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defense
isn't useful except in the formal "attacker cannot influence
negotiation" sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting this done, I
guess
I'm willing to let this go if the security considerations make clear
that it is only a very limited mechanism.

-Ekr


[0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately
evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic
strength is not important for this question. For instance, you
could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a
secure protocol.






On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo <
gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward once you
> have the call.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
> On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> > Hi Gonzalo -
> >
> > We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself on
> March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.  Will update with
> resolutions once this has occurred.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Gonzalo
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <
> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Gonzalo S,
> >>
> >> what is the status of this one?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Gonzalo
> >>
> >> On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>> Totally agree, Ekr.  Marc and I are meeting to come up with a proposa=
l
> >>> but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once and
> >>> for all.  We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3 we=
eks.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Gonzalo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I st=
ep
> >>>> down, I should think.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Ekr
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>    Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!
> >>>>
> >>>>    Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to thi=
s?
> >>>>
> >>>>    Gonzalo
> >>>>
> >>>>    On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>    <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>
> >>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      Not really. I have not received any response to my mail of
> >>>>    Oct 23.
> >>>>>      As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're
> >>>>    reaching
> >>>>>      the limits of what can be accomplished by email.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my
> >>>>> understanding.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on
> >>>>    November
> >>>>> 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a
> >>>>    reason
> >>>>> to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      -Ekr
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>      <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>      <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          what is the status of this? Are the authors and the docume=
nt
> >>>>>          shepherd
> >>>>>          working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          Gonzalo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>          On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>          > Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>          <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          > <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >     Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >     I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on
> >>>>    2018-10-07
> >>>>>          following
> >>>>>          >     an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never
> >>>>    got a
> >>>>>          response
> >>>>>          >     back.  Because there was no change proposed by
> >>>>    Eric I went
> >>>>>          ahead and
> >>>>>          >     published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with
> >>>>    the text
> >>>>>          agreed in
> >>>>>          >     response to Adam's and Benjamin's comments.
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>
> >>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.htm=
l
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          > Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          > It sounds like you did the right thing, and that Eric
> >>>>    has now
> >>>>>          responded,
> >>>>>          > which is also the right thing to do.
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          > Thanks for helping me understand.
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          > Spencer
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >     On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>          >     > Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     > I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn't
> >>>>    see a
> >>>>>          reply from
> >>>>>          >     Eric in
> >>>>>          >     > this thread. Do you think that you've converged?
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     > (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought a=
n
> >>>>>          out-of-band
> >>>>>          >     > conversation might have happened)
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     > Thanks,
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     > Spencer
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     > On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>          >     <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >
> >>>>>          >     >> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> Please see inline.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc
> >>>>    Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>          >     <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to that=
.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> I think that there is some misunderstanding
> >>>>    in what
> >>>>>          STUNbis is
> >>>>>          >     trying to
> >>>>>          >     >>>> do, so please see my comments inline.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> I've reviewed the new version, but I don't thi=
nk
> >>>>>          that the biddown
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> discussion makes much sense.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> To recap, there are two hashes here:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> - The hash which you use to store the
> >>>>    password with
> >>>>>          (currently
> >>>>>          >     mostly
> >>>>>          >     >>>> MD5)
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> - The hash you use to compute the MAC
> >>>>    (currently SHA-1).
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a
> >>>>    great choice
> >>>>>          here,
> >>>>>          >     though SHA-1
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> isn't a great choice
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the
> >>>>    like.
> >>>>>          With that said,
> >>>>>          >     >>>> there's
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> no sensible
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> biddown attack on that hash because it's a
> >>>>>          per-server feature,
> >>>>>          >     not a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> per-transaction
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> feature. So, as long as the server has
> >>>>    MD5-hashed
> >>>>>          passwords, the
> >>>>>          >     >>>> situation
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> is bad.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to
> >>>>    use SHA-1
> >>>>>          for password
> >>>>>          >     >>>> encryption, so I am not sure where that come
> >>>>    from.
> >>>>>          What we
> >>>>>          >     propose is:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but my criticisms
> >>>>    apply
> >>>>>          equally there.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.  Our attempts
> >>>>    to add
> >>>>>          other passwords
> >>>>>          >     >> encryption mechanisms were denied.  It is true th=
at
> >>>>>          Argon2 was
> >>>>>          >     not in that
> >>>>>          >     >> list (in our defense Argon2 was not known
> >>>>    before July
> >>>>>          2015), but
> >>>>>          >     I do not
> >>>>>          >     >> see why the WG would have accepted that one
> >>>>    over the
> >>>>>          others.
> >>>>>          >     Anyway it is
> >>>>>          >     >> too late to fix this, as it is my understanding
> >>>>    that
> >>>>>          the WG does
> >>>>>          >     not have
> >>>>>          >     >> enough energy to reach consensus on a new passwor=
d
> >>>>>          algorithm.
> >>>>>          >     Someone can
> >>>>>          >     >> just write a draft adding Argon2 as password
> >>>>>          encryption, as we
> >>>>>          >     will have a
> >>>>>          >     >> IANA registry for that.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Establish a registry for new password
> >>>>    algorithms
> >>>>>          (section
> >>>>>          >     18.5), so
> >>>>>          >     >>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be added later
> >>>>    (but note
> >>>>>          that our own
> >>>>>          >     >>>> proposals to add more password algorithms were
> >>>>>          rejected by the
> >>>>>          >     working
> >>>>>          >     >>>> group).
> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Add a new password algorithm to that registry=
,
> >>>>>          namely SHA-256.
> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Register MD5 as an initial password
> >>>>    algorithm for
> >>>>>          backward
> >>>>>          >     >> compatibility
> >>>>>          >     >>>> purpose.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> As for the biddown protection itself, it is my
> >>>>>          recollection that it
> >>>>>          >     >>>> happened more or less like that:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>          microphone:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  We added SHA-256 protection fo=
r
> >>>>>          passwords
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  in STUNBis.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            SOMEONE (V.O.)
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  As MD5 still need to be
> >>>>    supported,
> >>>>>          you need to add
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  protection for bid-down attack=
s.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  OK, I'll work on that.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> Four to eight months has passed.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>    microphone:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  We added a nice mechanism to
> >>>>    prevent
> >>>>>          bid-down
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  attacks on passwords.  Any
> >>>>    comments?
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            THE ROOM
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  (silence)
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  Moving on...
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> I don't see how any of this is relevant to my
> >>>>>          technical points
> >>>>>          >     above.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> My point was that we, the co-editors, did not
> >>>>    decide on
> >>>>>          adding
> >>>>>          >     bid-down
> >>>>>          >     >> protection, someone asked us to do so and
> >>>>    no-one in the
> >>>>>          WG saw
> >>>>>          >     any problem
> >>>>>          >     >> with that.  The reasons that person wanted that
> >>>>    are not
> >>>>>          known to
> >>>>>          >     us but, as
> >>>>>          >     >> you insist, here's one reason I can think of:
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a
> >>>>    password
> >>>>>          database
> >>>>>          >     cannot be
> >>>>>          >     >> re-encrypted at once.  Also for operational
> >>>>    reasons,
> >>>>>          the MD5 password
> >>>>>          >     >> cannot be immediately removed from the database
> >>>>    as soon
> >>>>>          the user
> >>>>>          >     submitted
> >>>>>          >     >> a new one.  In fact, and for quite some time, bot=
h
> >>>>>          encrypted
> >>>>>          >     variants of
> >>>>>          >     >> the same password may have to be kept in that
> >>>>    database,
> >>>>>          because a
> >>>>>          >     single
> >>>>>          >     >> user may use a mix of devices, some of them
> >>>>    that use an
> >>>>>          RFC 5389
> >>>>>          >     client,
> >>>>>          >     >> some that use a STUNbis client.  It is up to
> >>>>    the STUN
> >>>>>          server owner to
> >>>>>          >     >> decide how long the migration to STUNbis will
> >>>>    take and
> >>>>>          when it
> >>>>>          >     will be
> >>>>>          >     >> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)
> >>>>    clients (that
> >>>>>          >     migration time
> >>>>>          >     >> can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but
> >>>>    that's the
> >>>>>          choice and
> >>>>>          >     >> responsibility of the owner of the server).
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the ST=
UN
> >>>>>          client is
> >>>>>          >     implementing
> >>>>>          >     >> STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional
> >>>>>          protection of the new
> >>>>>          >     >> password encryption algorithm.  That's where
> >>>>    the biddown
> >>>>>          >     protection kicks
> >>>>>          >     >> in, by preventing an online attacker to have
> >>>>    the server
> >>>>>          >     misidentifying a
> >>>>>          >     >> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by
> >>>>    preventing an
> >>>>>          online
> >>>>>          >     attacker to
> >>>>>          >     >> have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server
> >>>>    as a
> >>>>>          RFC 5389
> >>>>>          >     server, and
> >>>>>          >     >> having both them use the MD5 encrypted password
> >>>>    instead
> >>>>>          of the
> >>>>>          >     SHA-256
> >>>>>          >     >> encrypted password, all of that easily done by
> >>>>>          stripping the
> >>>>>          >     unprotected
> >>>>>          >     >> 401 response of the new STUNbis PASSWORD-ALGORITH=
MS
> >>>>>          attribute.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> The second topic is the hash used to compute t=
he
> >>>>>          MAC. However,
> >>>>>          >     I don't
> >>>>>          >     >>>> see
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> how
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> this gives you sensible biddown protection
> >>>>    because
> >>>>>          that hash
> >>>>>          >     is also
> >>>>>          >     >> used
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> to compute
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has
> >>>>>          compromised a
> >>>>>          >     MAC which
> >>>>>          >     >> the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> server
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> supports will quite likely be able to forge
> >>>>    a MAC
> >>>>>          over the
> >>>>>          >     transcript
> >>>>>          >     >> as
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> well. This is,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> I suppose, potentially useful as a defense
> >>>>    against
> >>>>>          some other
> >>>>>          >     weakness
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> (e.g.,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> version #), but I don't really see how the
> >>>>    current
> >>>>>          design
> >>>>>          >     helps against
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> attacks on the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> MAC.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> There is no biddown attack protection for the
> >>>>    MAC, as
> >>>>>          stated in
> >>>>>          >     Section
> >>>>>          >     >>>> 16.3:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> "The bid-down protection mechanism described
> >>>>    in this
> >>>>>          document
> >>>>>          >     is new,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>  and thus cannot currently protect against a
> >>>>    bid-down
> >>>>>          attack that
> >>>>>          >     >>>>  lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to
> >>>>    HMAC-SHA1."
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>> What we put in place is a plan for *future*
> >>>>    versions
> >>>>>          of STUN to get
> >>>>>          >     >>>> biddown protection for the MAC.  That's it,
> >>>>    no more,
> >>>>>          no less.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> Yes, but I don't believe that this will
> >>>>    provide bid-down
> >>>>>          >     protection for
> >>>>>          >     >> the
> >>>>>          >     >>> MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate
> >>>>    above.
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> If you think this does something useful,
> >>>>    please show me an
> >>>>>          >     example attack
> >>>>>          >     >>> and how this fixes it. Note that it's not
> >>>>    generally
> >>>>>          useful to
> >>>>>          >     just bid
> >>>>>          >     >> down
> >>>>>          >     >>> the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to
> >>>>    is weak
> >>>>>          enough to
> >>>>>          >     exploit
> >>>>>          >     >> in
> >>>>>          >     >>> some other way.
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >> I do not know what weaknesses will be
> >>>>    discovered in the
> >>>>>          future.
> >>>>>          >     I am also
> >>>>>          >     >> pretty sure that the cost of not using that
> >>>>    mechanism
> >>>>>          is very
> >>>>>          >     close to 0.
> >>>>>          >     >> What I am sure of is that the cost of
> >>>>    reengineering a
> >>>>>          new biddown
> >>>>>          >     >> protection mechanism if we ever need it will be
> >>>>    high.
> >>>>>          We already
> >>>>>          >     went
> >>>>>          >     >> through the pains of designing one for the passwo=
rd
> >>>>>          algorithm, so
> >>>>>          >     why not
> >>>>>          >     >> extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of t=
he
> >>>>>          next Snowden
> >>>>>          >     facepalm
> >>>>>          >     >> moment?
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>> Again, happy to have a call to walk though
> >>>>    this if that
> >>>>>          >     >>> helps.
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>> -Ekr
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> You might think that there was a MAC which
> >>>>    was easier to
> >>>>>          >     reverse to
> >>>>>          >     >> find
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> the original
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> password, but the defense you have here
> >>>>    doesn't help
> >>>>>          with that
> >>>>>          >     because
> >>>>>          >     >>>> the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the
> >>>>>          client as a MAC
> >>>>>          >     oracle
> >>>>>          >     >> for
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> any MAC the client supports.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> So, I still don't understand what this is
> >>>>    supposed
> >>>>>          to do. Happy to
> >>>>>          >     >> have a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> call if you
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> think that helps
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo
> >>>>    Camarillo <
> >>>>>          >     >>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>          <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>
> >>>>>          >     <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>          <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Marc, Eric,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> what is the status of this discussion?
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc
> >>>>>          Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>          >     >>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla
> >>>>    wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc
> >>>>>          Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>          >     <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > wrote:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      For a request or indication
> >>>>    message,
> >>>>>          the agent
> >>>>>          >     MUST
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> include the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      USERNAME,
> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and
> >>>>>          >     >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> attributes
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      in the message unless the agen=
t
> >>>>>          knows from an
> >>>>>          >     external
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> indication
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      which message integrity
> >>>>    algorithm is
> >>>>>          supported
> >>>>>          >     by both
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> agents.  In
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      this case either
> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      be included in addition to
> >>>>>          USERNAME.  The HMAC
> >>>>>          >     for the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> This text appears to conflict with
> >>>>    S 7.3 of
> >>>>>          >     5245-bis, which
> >>>>>          >     >>>> says:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> [text missing]
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still referenci=
ng
> >>>>>          RFC5389, so the
> >>>>>          >     >>>> procedure
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> for
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> stunbis does not apply.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > I hear what you're saying, but
> >>>>    publishing two
> >>>>>          >     documents at the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> same time
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > which
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > make contrary recommendations about
> >>>>    the same
> >>>>>          basic
> >>>>>          >     protocol is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> un-good.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have
> >>>>>          rfc5245bis
> >>>>>          >     using stunbis
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     and have them updating their text,
> >>>>    more than
> >>>>>          adding some
> >>>>>          >     tortuous
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     text in stunbis?
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>      The STUN usage must specify whi=
ch
> >>>>>          transport
> >>>>>          >     protocol is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used, and
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> how
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      the agent determines the IP
> >>>>    address
> >>>>>          and port
> >>>>>          >     of the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> recipient.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      Section 8 describes a DNS-base=
d
> >>>>>          method of
> >>>>>          >     determining
> >>>>>          >     >> the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> IP
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> address
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      and port of a server that a
> >>>>    usage
> >>>>>          may elect to
> >>>>>          >     use.
> >>>>>          >     >> STUN
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> may be
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> used
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      with anycast addresses, but on=
ly
> >>>>>          with UDP and
> >>>>>          >     in usages
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> where
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      authentication is not used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> Why this restriction? You should
> >>>>    be able
> >>>>>          to use
> >>>>>          >     anycast with
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> long-term
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> msg03582.html
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>           <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>          >     >>>> msg03582.html>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> I think that the decision of
> >>>>    permitting Anycast
> >>>>>          >     should be left
> >>>>>          >     >>>> to
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> each
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does
> >>>>    not use
> >>>>>          >     authentication and
> >>>>>          >     >>>> use
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> only a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> one round trip for the Binding
> >>>>    transaction, so
> >>>>>          >     Unicast can be
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably sa=
y
> >>>>>          something
> >>>>>          >     about that,
> >>>>>          >     >> so
> >>>>>          >     >>>> I
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> added a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> new bullet point in Section 13:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    o  If Anycast addresses can be
> >>>>    used for
> >>>>>          the server
> >>>>>          >     in case
> >>>>>          >     >>>> TCP
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> or
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>       TLS-over-TCP, or
> >>>>    authentication are used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Are you leaving this text in? That see=
ms
> >>>>>          very confusing.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     In isolation yes, but I think it makes
> >>>>    sense
> >>>>>          which the text
> >>>>>          >     >> before
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     the bullet points:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        A STUN usage defines how STUN is
> >>>>    actually
> >>>>>          utilized --
> >>>>>          >     when to
> >>>>>          >     >>>> send
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        requests, what to do with the
> >>>>    responses,
> >>>>>          and which
> >>>>>          >     optional
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        procedures defined here (or in an
> >>>>    extension
> >>>>>          to STUN)
> >>>>>          >     are to be
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        A usage also defines:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     [...]
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        o  If Anycast addresses can be used
> >>>>    for the
> >>>>>          server in
> >>>>>          >     case TCP
> >>>>>          >     >>>> or
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>           TLS-over-TCP, or authentication
> >>>>    are used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> What is the need for the restriction at all.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      transaction over UDP or
> >>>>>          DTLS-over-UDP is also
> >>>>>          >     >> considered
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> failed if
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      there has been a hard ICMP err=
or
> >>>>>          [RFC1122].  For
> >>>>>          >     >> example,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> assuming
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> an
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      RTO of 500ms, requests would
> >>>>    be sent
> >>>>>          at times
> >>>>>          >     0 ms, 500
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> ms, 1500
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> ms,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, an=
d
> >>>>>          31500 ms.  If the
> >>>>>          >     >> client
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> has not
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      received a response after
> >>>>    39500 ms,
> >>>>>          the client
> >>>>>          >     will
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> consider the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      transaction to have timed out.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> I note that these recommendations
> >>>>    now seem
> >>>>>          crazily
> >>>>>          >     long. I
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> assume the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> WG had consensus on this, but I
> >>>>    wanted to
> >>>>>          note it.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> Not just the WG, also the IESG that
> >>>>>          approved RFC 5389
> >>>>>          >     too as,
> >>>>>          >     >>>> but
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> for the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> addition of "or DTLS-over-UDP",
> >>>>    this is the
> >>>>>          same text
> >>>>>          >     than in
> >>>>>          >     >>>> RFC
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> 5389.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Yes, I know. My point is that while th=
ey
> >>>>>          might have bee
> >>>>>          >     >> sensible
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> when
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > 5389 was published they *now* seem
> >>>>    crazily
> >>>>>          long. Did
> >>>>>          >     the WG
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> explicitly
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > decide not to update them?
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     No, nobody ever suggested that there
> >>>>    was an
> >>>>>          issue there.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> OK, well, this seems like it should be
> >>>>    considered,
> >>>>>          then,
> >>>>>          >     because this
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> match modern practice.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > This would be good to explain.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     New text:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        [...]
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        containing the subjectAltName of that
> >>>>>          certificate.
> >>>>>          >     The test
> >>>>>          >     >> on
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute
> >>>>>          indicates that the
> >>>>>          >     >>>> transaction
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        authenticated and that the client
> >>>>>          implements this
> >>>>>          >     >> specification
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> and
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        so can process the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN
> >>>>    attribute.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> All right.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  What authentication and
> >>>>>          message-integrity
> >>>>>          >     mechanisms
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> are used.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  The considerations around
> >>>>    manual vs.
> >>>>>          >     automatic key
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> derivation
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> for
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>         the integrity mechanism, as
> >>>>>          discussed in
> >>>>>          >     [RFC4107].
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  What mechanisms are used to
> >>>>>          distinguish STUN
> >>>>>          >     >> messages
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> from other
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> Why is this required? It seems
> >>>>    like that's
> >>>>>          a generic
> >>>>>          >     STUN
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> feature.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> That text is identical to the text
> >>>>    in RFC
> >>>>>          5389.  RFC
> >>>>>          >     5764/7983
> >>>>>          >     >>>> is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> one such
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> mechanism, but there is nothing that
> >>>>>          prevent another
> >>>>>          >     protocol
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> stack to use
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> a different mechanism (inference,
> >>>>    shim, etc...)
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > But ultimately no matter what the
> >>>>    other protocol
> >>>>>          >     provides for
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> demux, STUN
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > has its
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > own demux.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     In fact I think that the reason for
> >>>>    that item
> >>>>>          was because
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     FINGERPRINT can also be used to demux ST=
UN
> >>>>>          traffic, but
> >>>>>          >     it is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     optional.  So an STUN Usage needs to
> >>>>    tell if
> >>>>>          FINGERPRINT is
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     mandatory (like in ICE).
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> This should be explained.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      that is not readily subject to
> >>>>>          offline dictionary
> >>>>>          >     >>>> attacks.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      Protection of the channel
> >>>>    itself,
> >>>>>          using TLS or
> >>>>>          >     DTLS,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> mitigates
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> these
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      attacks.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      STUN supports both
> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      which is subject to bid down
> >>>>    attacks
> >>>>>          by an on-path
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> attacker.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> By an on-path attacker who can forge
> >>>>>          HMAC-SHA1 in
> >>>>>          >     real-time?
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     That's a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> pretty serious adversary, so you
> >>>>    should
> >>>>>          clarify here
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> New text:
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    STUN supports both
> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    which is subject to bid down
> >>>>    attacks by
> >>>>>          an on-path
> >>>>>          >     attacker
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> that
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    would strip the
> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256
> >>>>>          attribute
> >>>>>          >     leaving
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     only the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and
> >>>>>          exploiting a potential
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     vulnerability.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    Protection of the channel
> >>>>    itself, using
> >>>>>          TLS or DTLS,
> >>>>>          >     >>>> mitigates
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     these
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    attacks.  Timely removal of the
> >>>>    support of
> >>>>>          >     >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> in a
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    future version of STUN is necessar=
y.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > I still don't understand the
> >>>>    capabilities
> >>>>>          you seem to
> >>>>>          >     believe
> >>>>>          >     >> the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     attacker
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > has.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Can you describe the exact attack.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     1. Vulnerability is found in HMAC-SHA1
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     2. Client Alice still supports M-I and
> >>>>>          M-I-256, does not
> >>>>>          >     know
> >>>>>          >     >> what
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     version of STUN server Bob supports and =
so
> >>>>>          send both.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     3. On-path attacker removes M-I-256.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     5. stunbis server Bob thinks that
> >>>>    Alice is an
> >>>>>          RFC 5389
> >>>>>          >     client and
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     continue with that protocol.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> This seems like an extremely weak attack. In
> >>>>>          general, any
> >>>>>          >     protocol of
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> this type is as strong
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> as the weakest integrity algorithm it
> >>>>    supports, so
> >>>>>          it's not
> >>>>>          >     that the
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> protocol has a downgrade
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> attack, but rather that the minimum algorith=
m
> >>>>>          supported is
> >>>>>          >     one you
> >>>>>          >     >>>> don't
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> trust as much
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> as you might like.
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     --
> >>>>>          >     >>
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>          >     --
> >>>>>          >     Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>          >     Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>
> >>>>>          <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org
> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>> <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org
> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>
> >>>>>          <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org
> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>>>
> >>>>>          >     Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org
> >>>>    <https://marc.petit-huguenin.org/>
> >>>>>          >     Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
> >>>>>          >
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the call yesterday.<br><br>Fir=
st, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for password<br>ha=
shing:<br><br>=C2=A0 Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not=
 meet modern<br>=C2=A0 standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustiv=
e password search<br>=C2=A0 by providing a relatively slow minimum time to =
compute the<br>=C2=A0 hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2<br>=
=C2=A0 [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/=
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/</a>] are<br>=C2=
=A0 available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.<br><br><br=
>Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here&#39;s a stylized version<br=
>of the protocol:<br><br>Client=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Server<br><br>Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Algorithms<br>HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg=
) -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- HMAC-H1(H2(Pas=
sword), ...)<br><br>Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the pas=
sword hashing<br>function respectively.<br><br>Now, if we assume that the a=
ttacker does not know Password and that<br>both H1 and H2 are secure, then =
it is not possible for the attacker to<br>complete the transaction or modif=
y any of the messages. Further, if<br>the weakest joint algorithm that both=
 sides support is still strong,<br>then an attacker cannot influence the al=
gorithm negotiation [0]. This<br>property is provided by covering the algor=
ithms under the MAC.<br><br>However, my point is that this is not a very us=
eful property.<br><br>First, consider the case in which the implementations=
 jointly support<br>one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for =
H1 they support<br>SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. Thi=
s allows<br>an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as fol=
lows.<br><br><br>Client=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 Attacker=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Server<br><br>Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &l=
t;- Nonce, Alg=3DZ<br>Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Z(H2(Password), Nonc=
e, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))<br><br>The issue here is that the only thing that the =
MAC is doing is<br>authenticating the transaction, and if you can&#39;t tru=
st it to do that,<br>you can&#39;t trust it to authenticate the bid-down de=
fense either.<br><br><br>During our discussion, there was a suggestion that=
 it was useful to<br>have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H=
2. I don&#39;t think<br>that that&#39;s true either. First, remember that t=
he purpose of H2 is to<br>prevent an attacker who recovers the password dat=
abase from learning<br>the user&#39;s true password. This is not about defe=
nding the server from<br>attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the=
 server) but about<br>preventing the attacker from learning a password whic=
h might have been<br>reused on another site.<br><br>Now, it&#39;s also poss=
ible to brute-force the user&#39;s password just from<br>the protocol trans=
cript: if you capture the client&#39;s first message<br>with MESSAGE-INTEGR=
ITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep<br>trying passwords unti=
l you get the right MAC. Note that this is a<br>passive attack. This is com=
paratively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are<br>fast.<br><br>A much stronger =
H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the<br>problem now becomes th=
at the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256)<br>and so even if the ser=
ver supports Argon, the attacker can mount a<br>bid-down defense in which i=
t modifies the server&#39;s first message to<br>just advertise MD5 and thus=
 get the client to provide a suitable<br>message. The bid-down defense woul=
d prevent the authentication<br>transaction from completing, but that&#39;s=
 not necessary for this<br>attack because the attacker can just brute-force=
 the password from<br>the message it has. To make this work, you would need=
 something<br>like a PAKE, which this is not.<br><br>Finally, you might thi=
nk that the server has two databases, one<br>which uses Argon and one which=
 uses MD5 and it wants to gradually<br>phase out the MD5 one, which it will=
 do when no client authenticates<br>with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-=
biddown defense would sort<br>of work here, but the fact that the attacker =
would have to be<br>active essentially indefinitely to keep the server conf=
used about<br>the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just=
<br>get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a<br>not=
 very useful defense.<br><br>I think this makes a pretty persuasive case th=
at the bid-down defense<br>isn&#39;t useful except in the formal &quot;atta=
cker cannot influence<br>negotiation&quot; sense. With that said, in the sp=
irit of getting this done, I guess<br>I&#39;m willing to let this go if the=
 security considerations make clear<br>that it is only a very limited mecha=
nism.<br><br>-Ekr<br><br><br>[0] This is principally about H1. As long as t=
he H2 approximately<br>evenly distributes the password over its range, then=
 cryptographic<br>strength is not important for this question. For instance=
, you<br>could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a<br>sec=
ure protocol.<br><br><br><br><br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM =
Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com">gon=
zalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed =
way forward once you<br>
have the call.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Gonzalo<br>
<br>
On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Gonzalo - <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself o=
n March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.=C2=A0 Will update wit=
h resolutions once this has occurred.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@eric=
sson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo S,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; what is the status of this one?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Totally agree, Ekr.=C2=A0 Marc and I are meeting to come up wi=
th a proposal<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed o=
nce and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; for all.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the=
 next 2-3 weeks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We really need to bring this to a close before both Spence=
r and I step<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down, I should think.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors, could you please let us know when yo=
u plan to get to this?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF w=
rote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Gonzalo, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Not really. I have not received an=
y response to my mail of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oct 23.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As before, I&#39;m happy to have a=
 call, but I believe we&#39;re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reaching<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limits of what can be accompli=
shed by email.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this =
is also my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understanding. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal tele=
chat on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 November<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 29, if there hasn&#39;t been a call before then, but I=
 don&#39;t have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reason<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to wait until then, if it&#39;s possible to talk soone=
r.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Go=
nzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.cama=
rillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is the status o=
f this? Are the authors and the document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 shepherd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 working with the rel=
evant ADs on the discusses?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 24-Oct-18 16:40, =
Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi, Marc, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Wed, Oct 24,=
 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2018-10-07<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 following<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 got a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 response<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0back.=C2=A0 Because there was no change proposed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric I went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ahead and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 agreed in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0response to Adam&#39;s and Benjamin&#39;s comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-a=
rchive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Ah - I wonder i=
f that was what had happened. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; It sounds like =
you did the right thing, and that Eric<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has now<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responded,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; which is also t=
he right thing to do. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Thanks for help=
ing me understand.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply from<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Eric in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; this thread. Do you think that you&#39;ve converged?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 out-of-band<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; conversation might have happened)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@ac=
m.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">=
petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Please see inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@ac=
m.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">=
petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Apologies for the delay in getting back to that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think that there is some misunderstanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUNbis is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; do, so please see my comments inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed the new version, but I don&#39=
;t think<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion makes much sense.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To recap, there are two hashes here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash which you use to store the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 password with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (currently<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0mostly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash you use to compute the MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (currently SHA-1).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; First, let&#39;s stipulate that MD5 isn&#39;t a<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 here,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0though SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t a great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 With that said,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; no sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown attack on that hash because it&#39;s a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 per-server feature,<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per-transaction<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature. So, as long as the server has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MD5-hashed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passwords, the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; situation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is bad.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption, so I am not sure where that come<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0propose is:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, it&#39;s SHA-256, but my criticisms<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 equally there.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.=C2=A0 Our attempts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 other passwords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; encryption mechanisms were denied.=C2=A0 It is true that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Argon2 was<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; list (in our defense Argon2 was not known<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 before July<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2015), but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I do not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; see why the WG would have accepted that one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 others. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Anyway it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; too late to fix this, as it is my understanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the WG does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; enough energy to reach consensus on a new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Someone can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; just write a draft adding Argon2 as password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption, as we<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; IANA registry for that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Establish a registry for new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A018.5), so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; algorithms like Argon2 could be added later<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (but note<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that our own<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proposals to add more password algorithms were<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rejected by the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0working<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add a new password algorithm to that registry,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 namely SHA-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Register MD5 as an initial password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 backward<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; compatibility<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purpose.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the biddown protection itself, it is my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 recollection that it=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happened more or less like that:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 We added SHA-256 protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passwords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 in STUNBis.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SOMEONE (V.O.)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 As MD5 still need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you need to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 protection for bid-down attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 OK, I&#39;ll work on that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Four to eight months has passed.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 We added a nice mechanism to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prevent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 attacks on passwords.=C2=A0 Any<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comments?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 THE ROOM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 (silence)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Moving on...<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see how any of this is relevant to my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 technical points<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; My point was that we, the co-editors, did not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 decide on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 adding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; protection, someone asked us to do so and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 no-one in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WG saw<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0any problem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; with that.=C2=A0 The reasons that person wanted that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 known to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0us but, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; you insist, here&#39;s one reason I can think of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0cannot be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; re-encrypted at once.=C2=A0 Also for operational<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reasons,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the MD5 password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; cannot be immediately removed from the database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as soon<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the user<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0submitted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; a new one.=C2=A0 In fact, and for quite some time, both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encrypted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0variants of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the same password may have to be kept in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 database,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 because a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0single<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; user may use a mix of devices, some of them<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that use an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0client,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; some that use a STUNbis client.=C2=A0 It is up to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server owner to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; decide how long the migration to STUNbis will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 take and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 when it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 clients (that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0migration time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that&#39;s the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 choice and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; responsibility of the owner of the server).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 client is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0implementing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection of the ne=
w<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; password encryption algorithm.=C2=A0 That&#39;s where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protection kicks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; in, by preventing an online attacker to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0misidentifying a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 preventing an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 online<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0attacker to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0server, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; having both them use the MD5 encrypted password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 instead<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0SHA-256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; encrypted password, all of that easily done by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0unprotected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; 401 response of the new STUNbis PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second topic is the hash used to compute the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC. However,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this gives you sensible biddown protection<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that hash<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0is also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compromised a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supports will quite likely be able to forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0transcript<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well. This is,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose, potentially useful as a defense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some other<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0weakness<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; version #), but I don&#39;t really see how the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 current<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0helps against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no biddown attack protection for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 stated in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16.3:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The bid-down protection mechanism described<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0is new,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 and thus cannot currently protect against a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attack that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HMAC-SHA1.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What we put in place is a plan for *future*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 versions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of STUN to get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown protection for the MAC.=C2=A0 That&#39;s it,=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 no more,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 no less.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, but I don&#39;t believe that this will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provide bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; If you think this does something useful,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 please show me an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0example attack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; and how this fixes it. Note that it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 useful to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0just bid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is weak<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 enough to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0exploit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; some other way.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; I do not know what weaknesses will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discovered in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 future. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I am also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; pretty sure that the cost of not using that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanism<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is very<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0close to 0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; What I am sure of is that the cost of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reengineering a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 new biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; protection mechanism if we ever need it will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 high. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We already<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; through the pains of designing one for the password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0why not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 next Snowden<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0facepalm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; moment?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, happy to have a call to walk though<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this if that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; helps.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You might think that there was a MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 was easier to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0reverse to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; find<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the original<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password, but the defense you have here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 doesn&#39;t help<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 client as a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0oracle<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any MAC the client supports.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So, I still don&#39;t understand what this is<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to do. Happy to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; call if you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; think that helps<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camari=
llo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camari=
llo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Marc, Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the status of this discussion?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin &lt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank=
">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@ac=
m.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:p=
etithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 04/22/2018 05:22 P=
M, Eric Rescorla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Sun, Apr 22, =
2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin &lt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=
=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.=
org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">peti=
thug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_=
blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For a request or indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 message,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 USERNAME,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; attributes<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the message unless the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 knows from an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0external<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which message integrity<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; used<br>
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication is not used.<br>
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ww.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/</a><br>
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUN Usage.=
=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; one round tr=
ip for the Binding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Unicast can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; OTOH, TURN a=
nd ICE should probably say<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 something<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0about that,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; added a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; new bullet p=
oint in Section 13:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0in case<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS-over-TCP, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Are you leaving =
this text in? That seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 very confusing.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In isolation yes, but=
 I think it makes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; before<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the bullet points:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STUN usage =
defines how STUN is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 actually<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilized --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0when to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requests, wha=
t to do with the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 responses,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0optional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 procedures de=
fined here (or in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 extension<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to STUN)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0are to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A usage also =
defines:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 If An=
ycast addresses can be used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0case TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
TLS-over-TCP, or authentication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the need for the restriction at =
all.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction over UDP or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DTLS-over-UDP is als=
o<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; considered<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; failed if<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there has been a hard ICMP error<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC1122].=C2=A0 For=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; example,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assuming<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RTO of 500ms, requests would<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be sent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 at times<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A00 ms, 500<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ms, 1500<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; ms,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 31500 ms.=C2=A0 If t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; has not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 received a response after<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 39500 ms,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; consider the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction to have timed out.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; I note t=
hat these recommendations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 now seem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 crazily<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0long. I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assume the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; WG had c=
onsensus on this, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wanted to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 note it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; Not just the=
 WG, also the IESG that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 approved RFC 5389<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0too as,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; addition of =
&quot;or DTLS-over-UDP&quot;,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0than in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5389.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Yes, I know. My =
point is that while they<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 might have bee<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; 5389 was publish=
ed they *now* seem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 crazily<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 long. Did<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0the WG<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; explicitly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; decide not to up=
date them?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, nobody ever sugge=
sted that there<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 was an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 issue there.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OK, well, this seems like it should be<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 considered,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0because this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; doesn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; match modern practice.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; This would be go=
od to explain.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0New text:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 containing th=
e subjectAltName of that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 certificate. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The test<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEG=
RITY-SHA256 attribute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 indicates that the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; transaction<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 authenticated=
 and that the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 implements this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; specification<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 so can proces=
s the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; All right.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 message-integrity<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0mechanisms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The considerations around<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manual vs.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0automatic key<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; derivation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the integrity mechanism, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussed in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0[RFC4107].<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What mechanisms are used to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 distinguish STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; messages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from other<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Why is t=
his required? It seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like that&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a generic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; That text is=
 identical to the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5389.=C2=A0 RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A05764/7983<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one such<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; mechanism, b=
ut there is nothing that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prevent another<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; stack to use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; a different =
mechanism (inference,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 shim, etc...)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; But ultimately n=
o matter what the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 other protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0provides for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; demux, STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; has its<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; own demux.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact I think that =
the reason for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that item<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 was because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FINGERPRINT can also =
be used to demux STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0optional.=C2=A0 So an=
 STUN Usage needs to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tell if<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 FINGERPRINT is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mandatory (like in IC=
E).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This should be explained.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is not readily subject to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 offline dictionary<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Protection of the channel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 itself,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 using TLS or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0DTLS,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mitigates<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; these<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUN supports both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA=
256,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is subject to bid down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 by an on-path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacker.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; By an on=
-path attacker who can forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 HMAC-SHA1 in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0real-time?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That&#39;s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; pretty s=
erious adversary, so you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clarify here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; New text:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 STUN supports both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 which is subject to bid down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an on-path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0attacker<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 would strip the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0leaving<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploiting a potenti=
al<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vulnerability.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 Protection of the channel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 itself, using<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS or DTLS,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mitigates<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 attacks.=C2=A0 Timely removal of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 future version of STUN is necessary.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I still don&#39;=
t understand the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 capabilities<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you seem to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0believe<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacker<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; has.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Can you describe=
 the exact attack.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Vulnerability is f=
ound in HMAC-SHA1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Client Alice still=
 supports M-I and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 M-I-256, does not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0know<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0version of STUN serve=
r Bob supports and so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 send both.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. On-path attacker r=
emoves M-I-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05. stunbis server Bob=
 thinks that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alice is an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0client and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0continue with that pr=
otocol.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This seems like an extremely weak attack=
. In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 general, any<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this type is as strong<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as the weakest integrity algorithm it<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supports, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0that the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protocol has a downgrade<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attack, but rather that the minimum algo=
rithm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0one you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; trust as much<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as you might like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Email: <a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
arc@petit-huguenin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-hugu=
enin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Blog: <a href=3D"https://marc.petit-huguenin.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://marc.petit-huguenin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"https://marc.petit-huguenin.or=
g/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://marc.petit-huguenin.org/</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Profile: <a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000df312105839fd8d6--


From nobody Mon Mar 11 16:29:54 2019
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Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-20.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
        Authors         : Marc Petit-Huguenin
                          Gonzalo Salgueiro
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
                          Dan Wing
                          Rohan Mahy
                          Philip Matthews
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-20.txt
	Pages           : 73
	Date            : 2019-03-11

Abstract:
   Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) is a protocol that serves
   as a tool for other protocols in dealing with Network Address
   Translator (NAT) traversal.  It can be used by an endpoint to
   determine the IP address and port allocated to it by a NAT.  It can
   also be used to check connectivity between two endpoints, and as a
   keep-alive protocol to maintain NAT bindings.  STUN works with many
   existing NATs, and does not require any special behavior from them.

   STUN is not a NAT traversal solution by itself.  Rather, it is a tool
   to be used in the context of a NAT traversal solution.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5389.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-20

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-20


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar 18 18:27:13 2019
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 20:26:42 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-cO=PfpRR8+XOp1Cwn5hmYg5G-ssFgneh96FEo15OFq=Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>,  "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>,  "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Dear All,

On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the call yesterday.
>

Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.

If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before next
Wednesday, I'm happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears his
Discuss.

If I can help in any way, please let me know.

Spencer


>
> First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for password
> hashing:
>
>   Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern
>   standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search
>   by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the
>   hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2
>   [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/] are
>   available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.
>
>
> Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here's a stylized version
> of the protocol:
>
> Client                                                  Server
>
> Hello ->
>                                           <- Nonce, Algorithms
> HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) ->
>                                  <- HMAC-H1(H2(Password), ...)
>
> Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashing
> function respectively.
>
> Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and that
> both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacker to
> complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, if
> the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still strong,
> then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. This
> property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.
>
> However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.
>
> First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly support
> one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they support
> SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows
> an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.
>
>
> Client                      Attacker                   Server
>
> Hello ->
>                             Hello ->
>                                       <- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z
>                 <- Nonce, Alg=3DZ
> Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) ->
>                         Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))
>
> The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is
> authenticating the transaction, and if you can't trust it to do that,
> you can't trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either.
>
>
> During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful to
> have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don't think
> that that's true either. First, remember that the purpose of H2 is to
> prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learning
> the user's true password. This is not about defending the server from
> attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but about
> preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have been
> reused on another site.
>
> Now, it's also possible to brute-force the user's password just from
> the protocol transcript: if you capture the client's first message
> with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep
> trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a
> passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are
> fast.
>
> A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the
> problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256)
> and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a
> bid-down defense in which it modifies the server's first message to
> just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable
> message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication
> transaction from completing, but that's not necessary for this
> attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from
> the message it has. To make this work, you would need something
> like a PAKE, which this is not.
>
> Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one
> which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually
> phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticates
> with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort
> of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be
> active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about
> the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just
> get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a
> not very useful defense.
>
> I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defense
> isn't useful except in the formal "attacker cannot influence
> negotiation" sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting this done, I
> guess
> I'm willing to let this go if the security considerations make clear
> that it is only a very limited mechanism.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately
> evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic
> strength is not important for this question. For instance, you
> could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a
> secure protocol.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo <
> gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward once you
>> have the call.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Gonzalo
>>
>> On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
>> > Hi Gonzalo -
>> >
>> > We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself o=
n
>> March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.  Will update with
>> resolutions once this has occurred.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Gonzalo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <
>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Gonzalo S,
>> >>
>> >> what is the status of this one?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Gonzalo
>> >>
>> >> On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
>> >>> Totally agree, Ekr.  Marc and I are meeting to come up with a propos=
al
>> >>> but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once an=
d
>> >>> for all.  We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3 w=
eeks.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>>
>> >>> Gonzalo
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
>> >>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I
>> step
>> >>>> down, I should think.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -Ekr
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
>> >>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to
>> this?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    Gonzalo
>> >>>>
>> >>>>    On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
>> >>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>
>> >>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      Not really. I have not received any response to my mail of
>> >>>>    Oct 23.
>> >>>>>      As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're
>> >>>>    reaching
>> >>>>>      the limits of what can be accomplished by email.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my
>> >>>>> understanding.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on
>> >>>>    November
>> >>>>> 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a
>> >>>>    reason
>> >>>>> to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Spencer
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      -Ekr
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>      On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
>> >>>>>      <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
>> >>>>>      <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>          Hi Spencer,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>          what is the status of this? Are the authors and the
>> document
>> >>>>>          shepherd
>> >>>>>          working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>          Cheers,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>          Gonzalo
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>          On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> >>>>>          > Hi, Marc,
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
>> >>>>>          <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          > <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >     Hi Spencer,
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >     I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on
>> >>>>    2018-10-07
>> >>>>>          following
>> >>>>>          >     an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never
>> >>>>    got a
>> >>>>>          response
>> >>>>>          >     back.  Because there was no change proposed by
>> >>>>    Eric I went
>> >>>>>          ahead and
>> >>>>>          >     published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with
>> >>>>    the text
>> >>>>>          agreed in
>> >>>>>          >     response to Adam's and Benjamin's comments.
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          > Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          > It sounds like you did the right thing, and that Eric
>> >>>>    has now
>> >>>>>          responded,
>> >>>>>          > which is also the right thing to do.
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          > Thanks for helping me understand.
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          > Spencer
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >     On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     > Hi, Marc,
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     > I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn't
>> >>>>    see a
>> >>>>>          reply from
>> >>>>>          >     Eric in
>> >>>>>          >     > this thread. Do you think that you've converged?
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     > (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought =
an
>> >>>>>          out-of-band
>> >>>>>          >     > conversation might have happened)
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     > Thanks,
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     > Spencer
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     > On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Hugueni=
n
>> >>>>>          >     <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >
>> >>>>>          >     >> Hi Eric,
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> Please see inline.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc
>> >>>>    Petit-Huguenin
>> >>>>>          >     <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> Hi Eric,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to tha=
t.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> I think that there is some misunderstanding
>> >>>>    in what
>> >>>>>          STUNbis is
>> >>>>>          >     trying to
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> do, so please see my comments inline.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> Hi folks,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> I've reviewed the new version, but I don't
>> think
>> >>>>>          that the biddown
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> discussion makes much sense.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> To recap, there are two hashes here:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> - The hash which you use to store the
>> >>>>    password with
>> >>>>>          (currently
>> >>>>>          >     mostly
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> MD5)
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> - The hash you use to compute the MAC
>> >>>>    (currently SHA-1).
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a
>> >>>>    great choice
>> >>>>>          here,
>> >>>>>          >     though SHA-1
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> isn't a great choice
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the
>> >>>>    like.
>> >>>>>          With that said,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> there's
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> no sensible
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> biddown attack on that hash because it's a
>> >>>>>          per-server feature,
>> >>>>>          >     not a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> per-transaction
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> feature. So, as long as the server has
>> >>>>    MD5-hashed
>> >>>>>          passwords, the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> situation
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> is bad.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to
>> >>>>    use SHA-1
>> >>>>>          for password
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> encryption, so I am not sure where that come
>> >>>>    from.
>> >>>>>          What we
>> >>>>>          >     propose is:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but my criticisms
>> >>>>    apply
>> >>>>>          equally there.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.  Our attempts
>> >>>>    to add
>> >>>>>          other passwords
>> >>>>>          >     >> encryption mechanisms were denied.  It is true
>> that
>> >>>>>          Argon2 was
>> >>>>>          >     not in that
>> >>>>>          >     >> list (in our defense Argon2 was not known
>> >>>>    before July
>> >>>>>          2015), but
>> >>>>>          >     I do not
>> >>>>>          >     >> see why the WG would have accepted that one
>> >>>>    over the
>> >>>>>          others.
>> >>>>>          >     Anyway it is
>> >>>>>          >     >> too late to fix this, as it is my understanding
>> >>>>    that
>> >>>>>          the WG does
>> >>>>>          >     not have
>> >>>>>          >     >> enough energy to reach consensus on a new passwo=
rd
>> >>>>>          algorithm.
>> >>>>>          >     Someone can
>> >>>>>          >     >> just write a draft adding Argon2 as password
>> >>>>>          encryption, as we
>> >>>>>          >     will have a
>> >>>>>          >     >> IANA registry for that.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Establish a registry for new password
>> >>>>    algorithms
>> >>>>>          (section
>> >>>>>          >     18.5), so
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be added later
>> >>>>    (but note
>> >>>>>          that our own
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> proposals to add more password algorithms were
>> >>>>>          rejected by the
>> >>>>>          >     working
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> group).
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Add a new password algorithm to that registr=
y,
>> >>>>>          namely SHA-256.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> - Register MD5 as an initial password
>> >>>>    algorithm for
>> >>>>>          backward
>> >>>>>          >     >> compatibility
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> purpose.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> As for the biddown protection itself, it is my
>> >>>>>          recollection that it
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> happened more or less like that:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the
>> >>>>>          microphone:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  We added SHA-256 protection f=
or
>> >>>>>          passwords
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  in STUNBis.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            SOMEONE (V.O.)
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  As MD5 still need to be
>> >>>>    supported,
>> >>>>>          you need to add
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  protection for bid-down
>> attacks.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  OK, I'll work on that.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> Four to eight months has passed.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the
>> >>>>    microphone:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  We added a nice mechanism to
>> >>>>    prevent
>> >>>>>          bid-down
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  attacks on passwords.  Any
>> >>>>    comments?
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            THE ROOM
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  (silence)
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                            CO-EDITOR
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>                  Moving on...
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> I don't see how any of this is relevant to my
>> >>>>>          technical points
>> >>>>>          >     above.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> My point was that we, the co-editors, did not
>> >>>>    decide on
>> >>>>>          adding
>> >>>>>          >     bid-down
>> >>>>>          >     >> protection, someone asked us to do so and
>> >>>>    no-one in the
>> >>>>>          WG saw
>> >>>>>          >     any problem
>> >>>>>          >     >> with that.  The reasons that person wanted that
>> >>>>    are not
>> >>>>>          known to
>> >>>>>          >     us but, as
>> >>>>>          >     >> you insist, here's one reason I can think of:
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a
>> >>>>    password
>> >>>>>          database
>> >>>>>          >     cannot be
>> >>>>>          >     >> re-encrypted at once.  Also for operational
>> >>>>    reasons,
>> >>>>>          the MD5 password
>> >>>>>          >     >> cannot be immediately removed from the database
>> >>>>    as soon
>> >>>>>          the user
>> >>>>>          >     submitted
>> >>>>>          >     >> a new one.  In fact, and for quite some time, bo=
th
>> >>>>>          encrypted
>> >>>>>          >     variants of
>> >>>>>          >     >> the same password may have to be kept in that
>> >>>>    database,
>> >>>>>          because a
>> >>>>>          >     single
>> >>>>>          >     >> user may use a mix of devices, some of them
>> >>>>    that use an
>> >>>>>          RFC 5389
>> >>>>>          >     client,
>> >>>>>          >     >> some that use a STUNbis client.  It is up to
>> >>>>    the STUN
>> >>>>>          server owner to
>> >>>>>          >     >> decide how long the migration to STUNbis will
>> >>>>    take and
>> >>>>>          when it
>> >>>>>          >     will be
>> >>>>>          >     >> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)
>> >>>>    clients (that
>> >>>>>          >     migration time
>> >>>>>          >     >> can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but
>> >>>>    that's the
>> >>>>>          choice and
>> >>>>>          >     >> responsibility of the owner of the server).
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the
>> STUN
>> >>>>>          client is
>> >>>>>          >     implementing
>> >>>>>          >     >> STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional
>> >>>>>          protection of the new
>> >>>>>          >     >> password encryption algorithm.  That's where
>> >>>>    the biddown
>> >>>>>          >     protection kicks
>> >>>>>          >     >> in, by preventing an online attacker to have
>> >>>>    the server
>> >>>>>          >     misidentifying a
>> >>>>>          >     >> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by
>> >>>>    preventing an
>> >>>>>          online
>> >>>>>          >     attacker to
>> >>>>>          >     >> have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server
>> >>>>    as a
>> >>>>>          RFC 5389
>> >>>>>          >     server, and
>> >>>>>          >     >> having both them use the MD5 encrypted password
>> >>>>    instead
>> >>>>>          of the
>> >>>>>          >     SHA-256
>> >>>>>          >     >> encrypted password, all of that easily done by
>> >>>>>          stripping the
>> >>>>>          >     unprotected
>> >>>>>          >     >> 401 response of the new STUNbis
>> PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS
>> >>>>>          attribute.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> The second topic is the hash used to compute
>> the
>> >>>>>          MAC. However,
>> >>>>>          >     I don't
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> see
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> how
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> this gives you sensible biddown protection
>> >>>>    because
>> >>>>>          that hash
>> >>>>>          >     is also
>> >>>>>          >     >> used
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> to compute
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has
>> >>>>>          compromised a
>> >>>>>          >     MAC which
>> >>>>>          >     >> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> server
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> supports will quite likely be able to forge
>> >>>>    a MAC
>> >>>>>          over the
>> >>>>>          >     transcript
>> >>>>>          >     >> as
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> well. This is,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> I suppose, potentially useful as a defense
>> >>>>    against
>> >>>>>          some other
>> >>>>>          >     weakness
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> (e.g.,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> version #), but I don't really see how the
>> >>>>    current
>> >>>>>          design
>> >>>>>          >     helps against
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> attacks on the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> MAC.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> There is no biddown attack protection for the
>> >>>>    MAC, as
>> >>>>>          stated in
>> >>>>>          >     Section
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> 16.3:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> "The bid-down protection mechanism described
>> >>>>    in this
>> >>>>>          document
>> >>>>>          >     is new,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>  and thus cannot currently protect against a
>> >>>>    bid-down
>> >>>>>          attack that
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>  lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to
>> >>>>    HMAC-SHA1."
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> What we put in place is a plan for *future*
>> >>>>    versions
>> >>>>>          of STUN to get
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> biddown protection for the MAC.  That's it,
>> >>>>    no more,
>> >>>>>          no less.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> Yes, but I don't believe that this will
>> >>>>    provide bid-down
>> >>>>>          >     protection for
>> >>>>>          >     >> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>> MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate
>> >>>>    above.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> If you think this does something useful,
>> >>>>    please show me an
>> >>>>>          >     example attack
>> >>>>>          >     >>> and how this fixes it. Note that it's not
>> >>>>    generally
>> >>>>>          useful to
>> >>>>>          >     just bid
>> >>>>>          >     >> down
>> >>>>>          >     >>> the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to
>> >>>>    is weak
>> >>>>>          enough to
>> >>>>>          >     exploit
>> >>>>>          >     >> in
>> >>>>>          >     >>> some other way.
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >> I do not know what weaknesses will be
>> >>>>    discovered in the
>> >>>>>          future.
>> >>>>>          >     I am also
>> >>>>>          >     >> pretty sure that the cost of not using that
>> >>>>    mechanism
>> >>>>>          is very
>> >>>>>          >     close to 0.
>> >>>>>          >     >> What I am sure of is that the cost of
>> >>>>    reengineering a
>> >>>>>          new biddown
>> >>>>>          >     >> protection mechanism if we ever need it will be
>> >>>>    high.
>> >>>>>          We already
>> >>>>>          >     went
>> >>>>>          >     >> through the pains of designing one for the
>> password
>> >>>>>          algorithm, so
>> >>>>>          >     why not
>> >>>>>          >     >> extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of
>> the
>> >>>>>          next Snowden
>> >>>>>          >     facepalm
>> >>>>>          >     >> moment?
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> Again, happy to have a call to walk though
>> >>>>    this if that
>> >>>>>          >     >>> helps.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>> -Ekr
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> You might think that there was a MAC which
>> >>>>    was easier to
>> >>>>>          >     reverse to
>> >>>>>          >     >> find
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> the original
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> password, but the defense you have here
>> >>>>    doesn't help
>> >>>>>          with that
>> >>>>>          >     because
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use th=
e
>> >>>>>          client as a MAC
>> >>>>>          >     oracle
>> >>>>>          >     >> for
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> any MAC the client supports.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> So, I still don't understand what this is
>> >>>>    supposed
>> >>>>>          to do. Happy to
>> >>>>>          >     >> have a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> call if you
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> think that helps
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> -Ekr
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo
>> >>>>    Camarillo <
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>
>> >>>>>          >     <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
>> >>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Marc, Eric,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> what is the status of this discussion?
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> Gonzalo
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc
>> >>>>>          Petit-Huguenin <
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla
>> >>>>    wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc
>> >>>>>          Petit-Huguenin <
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
>> >>>>>          >     <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
>> >>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > wrote:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      For a request or indication
>> >>>>    message,
>> >>>>>          the agent
>> >>>>>          >     MUST
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> include the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      USERNAME,
>> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and
>> >>>>>          >     >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> attributes
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      in the message unless the age=
nt
>> >>>>>          knows from an
>> >>>>>          >     external
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> indication
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      which message integrity
>> >>>>    algorithm is
>> >>>>>          supported
>> >>>>>          >     by both
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> agents.  In
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      this case either
>> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      be included in addition to
>> >>>>>          USERNAME.  The HMAC
>> >>>>>          >     for the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> This text appears to conflict with
>> >>>>    S 7.3 of
>> >>>>>          >     5245-bis, which
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> says:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> [text missing]
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still
>> referencing
>> >>>>>          RFC5389, so the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> procedure
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> stunbis does not apply.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > I hear what you're saying, but
>> >>>>    publishing two
>> >>>>>          >     documents at the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> same time
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > which
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > make contrary recommendations about
>> >>>>    the same
>> >>>>>          basic
>> >>>>>          >     protocol is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> un-good.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to hav=
e
>> >>>>>          rfc5245bis
>> >>>>>          >     using stunbis
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     and have them updating their text,
>> >>>>    more than
>> >>>>>          adding some
>> >>>>>          >     tortuous
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     text in stunbis?
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>      The STUN usage must specify
>> which
>> >>>>>          transport
>> >>>>>          >     protocol is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used, and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> how
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      the agent determines the IP
>> >>>>    address
>> >>>>>          and port
>> >>>>>          >     of the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> recipient.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      Section 8 describes a DNS-bas=
ed
>> >>>>>          method of
>> >>>>>          >     determining
>> >>>>>          >     >> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> IP
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> address
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      and port of a server that a
>> >>>>    usage
>> >>>>>          may elect to
>> >>>>>          >     use.
>> >>>>>          >     >> STUN
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> may be
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> used
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      with anycast addresses, but
>> only
>> >>>>>          with UDP and
>> >>>>>          >     in usages
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> where
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      authentication is not used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> Why this restriction? You should
>> >>>>    be able
>> >>>>>          to use
>> >>>>>          >     anycast with
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> long-term
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> msg03582.html
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>           <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> msg03582.html>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> I think that the decision of
>> >>>>    permitting Anycast
>> >>>>>          >     should be left
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> to
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> each
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does
>> >>>>    not use
>> >>>>>          >     authentication and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> use
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> only a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> one round trip for the Binding
>> >>>>    transaction, so
>> >>>>>          >     Unicast can be
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably s=
ay
>> >>>>>          something
>> >>>>>          >     about that,
>> >>>>>          >     >> so
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> I
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> added a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> new bullet point in Section 13:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    o  If Anycast addresses can be
>> >>>>    used for
>> >>>>>          the server
>> >>>>>          >     in case
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> TCP
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> or
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>       TLS-over-TCP, or
>> >>>>    authentication are used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Are you leaving this text in? That
>> seems
>> >>>>>          very confusing.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     In isolation yes, but I think it makes
>> >>>>    sense
>> >>>>>          which the text
>> >>>>>          >     >> before
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     the bullet points:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        A STUN usage defines how STUN is
>> >>>>    actually
>> >>>>>          utilized --
>> >>>>>          >     when to
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> send
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        requests, what to do with the
>> >>>>    responses,
>> >>>>>          and which
>> >>>>>          >     optional
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        procedures defined here (or in an
>> >>>>    extension
>> >>>>>          to STUN)
>> >>>>>          >     are to be
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        A usage also defines:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     [...]
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        o  If Anycast addresses can be used
>> >>>>    for the
>> >>>>>          server in
>> >>>>>          >     case TCP
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> or
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>           TLS-over-TCP, or authentication
>> >>>>    are used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> What is the need for the restriction at all=
.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      transaction over UDP or
>> >>>>>          DTLS-over-UDP is also
>> >>>>>          >     >> considered
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> failed if
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      there has been a hard ICMP
>> error
>> >>>>>          [RFC1122].  For
>> >>>>>          >     >> example,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> assuming
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> an
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      RTO of 500ms, requests would
>> >>>>    be sent
>> >>>>>          at times
>> >>>>>          >     0 ms, 500
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> ms, 1500
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> ms,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, a=
nd
>> >>>>>          31500 ms.  If the
>> >>>>>          >     >> client
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> has not
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      received a response after
>> >>>>    39500 ms,
>> >>>>>          the client
>> >>>>>          >     will
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> consider the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      transaction to have timed out=
.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> I note that these recommendations
>> >>>>    now seem
>> >>>>>          crazily
>> >>>>>          >     long. I
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> assume the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> WG had consensus on this, but I
>> >>>>    wanted to
>> >>>>>          note it.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> Not just the WG, also the IESG that
>> >>>>>          approved RFC 5389
>> >>>>>          >     too as,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> but
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> for the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> addition of "or DTLS-over-UDP",
>> >>>>    this is the
>> >>>>>          same text
>> >>>>>          >     than in
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> RFC
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> 5389.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Yes, I know. My point is that while
>> they
>> >>>>>          might have bee
>> >>>>>          >     >> sensible
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> when
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > 5389 was published they *now* seem
>> >>>>    crazily
>> >>>>>          long. Did
>> >>>>>          >     the WG
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> explicitly
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > decide not to update them?
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     No, nobody ever suggested that there
>> >>>>    was an
>> >>>>>          issue there.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> OK, well, this seems like it should be
>> >>>>    considered,
>> >>>>>          then,
>> >>>>>          >     because this
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> doesn't
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> match modern practice.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > This would be good to explain.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     New text:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        [...]
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        containing the subjectAltName of tha=
t
>> >>>>>          certificate.
>> >>>>>          >     The test
>> >>>>>          >     >> on
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute
>> >>>>>          indicates that the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> transaction
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        authenticated and that the client
>> >>>>>          implements this
>> >>>>>          >     >> specification
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>        so can process the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN
>> >>>>    attribute.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> All right.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  What authentication and
>> >>>>>          message-integrity
>> >>>>>          >     mechanisms
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> are used.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  The considerations around
>> >>>>    manual vs.
>> >>>>>          >     automatic key
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> derivation
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> for
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>         the integrity mechanism, a=
s
>> >>>>>          discussed in
>> >>>>>          >     [RFC4107].
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      o  What mechanisms are used t=
o
>> >>>>>          distinguish STUN
>> >>>>>          >     >> messages
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> from other
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> Why is this required? It seems
>> >>>>    like that's
>> >>>>>          a generic
>> >>>>>          >     STUN
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> feature.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> That text is identical to the text
>> >>>>    in RFC
>> >>>>>          5389.  RFC
>> >>>>>          >     5764/7983
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> one such
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> mechanism, but there is nothing that
>> >>>>>          prevent another
>> >>>>>          >     protocol
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> stack to use
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> a different mechanism (inference,
>> >>>>    shim, etc...)
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > But ultimately no matter what the
>> >>>>    other protocol
>> >>>>>          >     provides for
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> demux, STUN
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > has its
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > own demux.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     In fact I think that the reason for
>> >>>>    that item
>> >>>>>          was because
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     FINGERPRINT can also be used to demux
>> STUN
>> >>>>>          traffic, but
>> >>>>>          >     it is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     optional.  So an STUN Usage needs to
>> >>>>    tell if
>> >>>>>          FINGERPRINT is
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     mandatory (like in ICE).
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> This should be explained.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      that is not readily subject t=
o
>> >>>>>          offline dictionary
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> attacks.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      Protection of the channel
>> >>>>    itself,
>> >>>>>          using TLS or
>> >>>>>          >     DTLS,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> mitigates
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> these
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      attacks.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      STUN supports both
>> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>>      which is subject to bid down
>> >>>>    attacks
>> >>>>>          by an on-path
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> attacker.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> By an on-path attacker who can forg=
e
>> >>>>>          HMAC-SHA1 in
>> >>>>>          >     real-time?
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     That's a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>> pretty serious adversary, so you
>> >>>>    should
>> >>>>>          clarify here
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >> New text:
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    STUN supports both
>> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    which is subject to bid down
>> >>>>    attacks by
>> >>>>>          an on-path
>> >>>>>          >     attacker
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> that
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    would strip the
>> >>>>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256
>> >>>>>          attribute
>> >>>>>          >     leaving
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     only the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and
>> >>>>>          exploiting a potential
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     vulnerability.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    Protection of the channel
>> >>>>    itself, using
>> >>>>>          TLS or DTLS,
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> mitigates
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     these
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    attacks.  Timely removal of the
>> >>>>    support of
>> >>>>>          >     >> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>> in a
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>    future version of STUN is
>> necessary.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > I still don't understand the
>> >>>>    capabilities
>> >>>>>          you seem to
>> >>>>>          >     believe
>> >>>>>          >     >> the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     attacker
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > has.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     > Can you describe the exact attack.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     >
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     1. Vulnerability is found in HMAC-SHA1
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     2. Client Alice still supports M-I and
>> >>>>>          M-I-256, does not
>> >>>>>          >     know
>> >>>>>          >     >> what
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     version of STUN server Bob supports and
>> so
>> >>>>>          send both.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     3. On-path attacker removes M-I-256.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     5. stunbis server Bob thinks that
>> >>>>    Alice is an
>> >>>>>          RFC 5389
>> >>>>>          >     client and
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     continue with that protocol.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> This seems like an extremely weak attack. I=
n
>> >>>>>          general, any
>> >>>>>          >     protocol of
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> this type is as strong
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> as the weakest integrity algorithm it
>> >>>>    supports, so
>> >>>>>          it's not
>> >>>>>          >     that the
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> protocol has a downgrade
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> attack, but rather that the minimum algorit=
hm
>> >>>>>          supported is
>> >>>>>          >     one you
>> >>>>>          >     >>>> don't
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> trust as much
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> as you might like.
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>> -Ekr
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>          >     >>>>>>>     --
>> >>>>>          >     >>
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>          >     --
>> >>>>>          >     Marc Petit-Huguenin
>> >>>>>          >     Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
>> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org
>> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>> <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.or=
g
>> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>
>> >>>>>          <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org
>> >>>>    <mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org>>>
>> >>>>>          >     Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org
>> >>>>    <https://marc.petit-huguenin.org/>
>> >>>>>          >     Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug
>> >>>>>          >
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:1=
0 PM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the call yesterday.<br></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks to all for moving this specification f=
orward.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If the current conversation turns ou=
t to converge on this topic before next Wednesday, I&#39;m happy to approve=
 a revised draft after Eric clears his Discuss.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><=
div>If I can help in any way, please let me know.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div=
><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>First, here is what I reco=
mmend for the question of SHA-256 for password<br>hashing:<br><br>=C2=A0 No=
te: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern<br>=C2=A0 =
standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search<br>=
=C2=A0 by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the<br>=C2=A0=
 hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2<br>=C2=A0 [<a href=3D"http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/</a>] are<br>=C2=A0 av=
ailable, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.<br><br><br>Now, =
WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here&#39;s a stylized version<br>of th=
e protocol:<br><br>Client=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Server<br><br>Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &l=
t;- Nonce, Algorithms<br>HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) -&gt=
;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- HMAC-H1(H2(Password)=
, ...)<br><br>Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password =
hashing<br>function respectively.<br><br>Now, if we assume that the attacke=
r does not know Password and that<br>both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is =
not possible for the attacker to<br>complete the transaction or modify any =
of the messages. Further, if<br>the weakest joint algorithm that both sides=
 support is still strong,<br>then an attacker cannot influence the algorith=
m negotiation [0]. This<br>property is provided by covering the algorithms =
under the MAC.<br><br>However, my point is that this is not a very useful p=
roperty.<br><br>First, consider the case in which the implementations joint=
ly support<br>one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 the=
y support<br>SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allo=
ws<br>an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.<=
br><br><br>Client=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Attac=
ker=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Server<br><br>Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Hello -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &lt;- No=
nce, Alg=3DZ<br>Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) -&gt;<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=
=3DSHA256, Z))<br><br>The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is=
 doing is<br>authenticating the transaction, and if you can&#39;t trust it =
to do that,<br>you can&#39;t trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense =
either.<br><br><br>During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it wa=
s useful to<br>have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I d=
on&#39;t think<br>that that&#39;s true either. First, remember that the pur=
pose of H2 is to<br>prevent an attacker who recovers the password database =
from learning<br>the user&#39;s true password. This is not about defending =
the server from<br>attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the serve=
r) but about<br>preventing the attacker from learning a password which migh=
t have been<br>reused on another site.<br><br>Now, it&#39;s also possible t=
o brute-force the user&#39;s password just from<br>the protocol transcript:=
 if you capture the client&#39;s first message<br>with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or=
 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep<br>trying passwords until you =
get the right MAC. Note that this is a<br>passive attack. This is comparati=
vely fast because SHA256 and MD5 are<br>fast.<br><br>A much stronger H2 (e.=
g., Argon) would help against this, but the<br>problem now becomes that the=
 client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256)<br>and so even if the server su=
pports Argon, the attacker can mount a<br>bid-down defense in which it modi=
fies the server&#39;s first message to<br>just advertise MD5 and thus get t=
he client to provide a suitable<br>message. The bid-down defense would prev=
ent the authentication<br>transaction from completing, but that&#39;s not n=
ecessary for this<br>attack because the attacker can just brute-force the p=
assword from<br>the message it has. To make this work, you would need somet=
hing<br>like a PAKE, which this is not.<br><br>Finally, you might think tha=
t the server has two databases, one<br>which uses Argon and one which uses =
MD5 and it wants to gradually<br>phase out the MD5 one, which it will do wh=
en no client authenticates<br>with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddow=
n defense would sort<br>of work here, but the fact that the attacker would =
have to be<br>active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused a=
bout<br>the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just<br>ge=
t a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a<br>not very =
useful defense.<br><br>I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the=
 bid-down defense<br>isn&#39;t useful except in the formal &quot;attacker c=
annot influence<br>negotiation&quot; sense. With that said, in the spirit o=
f getting this done, I guess<br>I&#39;m willing to let this go if the secur=
ity considerations make clear<br>that it is only a very limited mechanism.<=
br><br>-Ekr<br><br><br>[0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 =
approximately<br>evenly distributes the password over its range, then crypt=
ographic<br>strength is not important for this question. For instance, you<=
br>could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a<br>secure pr=
otocol.<br><br><br><br><br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzal=
o Camarillo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D=
"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know=
 the agreed way forward once you<br>
have the call.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Gonzalo<br>
<br>
On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Gonzalo - <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself o=
n March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.=C2=A0 Will update wit=
h resolutions once this has occurred.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@eric=
sson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo S,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; what is the status of this one?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Totally agree, Ekr.=C2=A0 Marc and I are meeting to come up wi=
th a proposal<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed o=
nce and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; for all.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the=
 next 2-3 weeks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We really need to bring this to a close before both Spence=
r and I step<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down, I should think.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors, could you please let us know when yo=
u plan to get to this?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF w=
rote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Gonzalo, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Not really. I have not received an=
y response to my mail of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Oct 23.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 As before, I&#39;m happy to have a=
 call, but I believe we&#39;re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reaching<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the limits of what can be accompli=
shed by email.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this =
is also my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understanding. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal tele=
chat on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 November<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 29, if there hasn&#39;t been a call before then, but I=
 don&#39;t have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reason<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to wait until then, if it&#39;s possible to talk soone=
r.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Go=
nzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.cama=
rillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is the status o=
f this? Are the authors and the document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 shepherd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 working with the rel=
evant ADs on the discusses?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 24-Oct-18 16:40, =
Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Hi, Marc, <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Wed, Oct 24,=
 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;=
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2018-10-07<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 following<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 got a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 response<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0back.=C2=A0 Because there was no change proposed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric I went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ahead and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 agreed in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0response to Adam&#39;s and Benjamin&#39;s comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-a=
rchive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Ah - I wonder i=
f that was what had happened. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; It sounds like =
you did the right thing, and that Eric<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has now<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 responded,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; which is also t=
he right thing to do. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Thanks for help=
ing me understand.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 see a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reply from<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Eric in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; this thread. Do you think that you&#39;ve converged?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 out-of-band<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; conversation might have happened)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt; On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@ac=
m.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">=
petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Please see inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@ac=
m.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">=
petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Apologies for the delay in getting back to that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think that there is some misunderstanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUNbis is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; do, so please see my comments inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed the new version, but I don&#39=
;t think<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion makes much sense.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To recap, there are two hashes here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash which you use to store the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 password with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (currently<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0mostly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash you use to compute the MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (currently SHA-1).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; First, let&#39;s stipulate that MD5 isn&#39;t a<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 here,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0though SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t a great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 With that said,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; no sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown attack on that hash because it&#39;s a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 per-server feature,<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per-transaction<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature. So, as long as the server has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MD5-hashed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passwords, the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; situation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is bad.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption, so I am not sure where that come<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 from. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0propose is:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, it&#39;s SHA-256, but my criticisms<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 equally there.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.=C2=A0 Our attempts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 other passwords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; encryption mechanisms were denied.=C2=A0 It is true that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Argon2 was<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; list (in our defense Argon2 was not known<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 before July<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2015), but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I do not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; see why the WG would have accepted that one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 others. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Anyway it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; too late to fix this, as it is my understanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the WG does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0not have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; enough energy to reach consensus on a new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Someone can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; just write a draft adding Argon2 as password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encryption, as we<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; IANA registry for that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Establish a registry for new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A018.5), so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; algorithms like Argon2 could be added later<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (but note<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that our own<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proposals to add more password algorithms were<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rejected by the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0working<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add a new password algorithm to that registry,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 namely SHA-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Register MD5 as an initial password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 backward<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; compatibility<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purpose.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the biddown protection itself, it is my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 recollection that it=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happened more or less like that:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 We added SHA-256 protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passwords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 in STUNBis.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 SOMEONE (V.O.)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 As MD5 still need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you need to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 protection for bid-down attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 OK, I&#39;ll work on that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Four to eight months has passed.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 We added a nice mechanism to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 prevent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 attacks on passwords.=C2=A0 Any<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 comments?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 THE ROOM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 (silence)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Moving on...<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see how any of this is relevant to my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 technical points<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; My point was that we, the co-editors, did not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 decide on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 adding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; protection, someone asked us to do so and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 no-one in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WG saw<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0any problem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; with that.=C2=A0 The reasons that person wanted that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 known to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0us but, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; you insist, here&#39;s one reason I can think of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0cannot be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; re-encrypted at once.=C2=A0 Also for operational<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reasons,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the MD5 password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; cannot be immediately removed from the database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as soon<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the user<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0submitted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; a new one.=C2=A0 In fact, and for quite some time, both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encrypted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0variants of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the same password may have to be kept in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 database,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 because a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0single<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; user may use a mix of devices, some of them<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that use an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0client,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; some that use a STUNbis client.=C2=A0 It is up to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server owner to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; decide how long the migration to STUNbis will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 take and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 when it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 clients (that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0migration time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that&#39;s the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 choice and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; responsibility of the owner of the server).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 client is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0implementing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection of the ne=
w<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; password encryption algorithm.=C2=A0 That&#39;s where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protection kicks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; in, by preventing an online attacker to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0misidentifying a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 preventing an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 online<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0attacker to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0server, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; having both them use the MD5 encrypted password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 instead<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0SHA-256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; encrypted password, all of that easily done by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 stripping the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0unprotected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; 401 response of the new STUNbis PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second topic is the hash used to compute the=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC. However,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this gives you sensible biddown protection<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that hash<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0is also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compromised a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supports will quite likely be able to forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0transcript<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well. This is,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose, potentially useful as a defense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some other<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0weakness<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; version #), but I don&#39;t really see how the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 current<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 design<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0helps against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no biddown attack protection for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 stated in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16.3:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The bid-down protection mechanism described<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0is new,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 and thus cannot currently protect against a<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attack that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HMAC-SHA1.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What we put in place is a plan for *future*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 versions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of STUN to get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown protection for the MAC.=C2=A0 That&#39;s it,=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 no more,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 no less.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, but I don&#39;t believe that this will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provide bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; If you think this does something useful,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 please show me an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0example attack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; and how this fixes it. Note that it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 generally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 useful to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0just bid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is weak<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 enough to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0exploit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; some other way.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; I do not know what weaknesses will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discovered in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 future. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I am also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; pretty sure that the cost of not using that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanism<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is very<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0close to 0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; What I am sure of is that the cost of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reengineering a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 new biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; protection mechanism if we ever need it will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 high. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We already<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; through the pains of designing one for the password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0why not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 next Snowden<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0facepalm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; moment?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, happy to have a call to walk though<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this if that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; helps.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You might think that there was a MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 was easier to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0reverse to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; find<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the original<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password, but the defense you have here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 doesn&#39;t help<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 client as a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0oracle<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any MAC the client supports.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So, I still don&#39;t understand what this is<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to do. Happy to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; call if you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; think that helps<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camari=
llo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=
=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camari=
llo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarill=
o@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt=
;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Marc, Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the status of this discussion?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin &lt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank=
">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@ac=
m.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:p=
etithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 04/22/2018 05:22 P=
M, Eric Rescorla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Sun, Apr 22, =
2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Petit-Huguenin &lt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=
=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.=
org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">peti=
thug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_=
blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mai=
lto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org=
" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For a request or indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 message,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 USERNAME,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; attributes<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the message unless the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 knows from an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0external<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which message integrity<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0by both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agents.=C2=A0 In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this case either<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be included in addition to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 USERNAME.=C2=A0 The =
HMAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; This tex=
t appears to conflict with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 S 7.3 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A05245-bis, which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; [text missin=
g]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; Hmm, no, RFC=
245bis is still referencing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC5389, so the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; stunbis does=
 not apply.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I hear what you&=
#39;re saying, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 publishing two<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0documents at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; same time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; make contrary re=
commendations about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the same<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 basic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; un-good.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sure, but wouldn&#39;=
t it be simpler to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rfc5245bis<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0using stunbis<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and have them updatin=
g their text,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more than<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 adding some<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0tortuous<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text in stunbis?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STUN usage must specify which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used, and<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the agent determines the IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 address<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and port<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; recipient.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section 8 describes a DNS-based<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 method of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0determining<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; address<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and port of a server that a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 usage<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 may elect to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0use.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; may be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with anycast addresses, but only<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with UDP and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0in usages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication is not used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Why this=
 restriction? You should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be able<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0anycast with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; long-term<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; AUTH for=
 (say) TURN.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D=
"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/</a>=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; I think that=
 the decision of<br>
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0should be left<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; STUN Usage.=
=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; one round tr=
ip for the Binding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Unicast can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; OTOH, TURN a=
nd ICE should probably say<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 something<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0about that,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
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=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; added a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; new bullet p=
oint in Section 13:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 used for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0in case<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TLS-over-TCP, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Are you leaving =
this text in? That seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 very confusing.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In isolation yes, but=
 I think it makes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; before<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the bullet points:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STUN usage =
defines how STUN is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 actually<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 utilized --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0when to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 requests, wha=
t to do with the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 responses,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0optional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 procedures de=
fined here (or in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 extension<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to STUN)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0are to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A usage also =
defines:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 If An=
ycast addresses can be used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 server in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0case TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
TLS-over-TCP, or authentication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is the need for the restriction at =
all.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction over UDP or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 DTLS-over-UDP is als=
o<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; considered<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; failed if<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there has been a hard ICMP error<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC1122].=C2=A0 For=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; example,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assuming<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RTO of 500ms, requests would<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 be sent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 at times<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A00 ms, 500<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ms, 1500<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; ms,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3500 ms, 7500 ms, 15500 ms, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 31500 ms.=C2=A0 If t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; has not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 received a response after<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 39500 ms,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; consider the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction to have timed out.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; I note t=
hat these recommendations<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 now seem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 crazily<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0long. I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; assume the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; WG had c=
onsensus on this, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 wanted to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 note it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; Not just the=
 WG, also the IESG that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 approved RFC 5389<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0too as,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; addition of =
&quot;or DTLS-over-UDP&quot;,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this is the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 same text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0than in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 5389.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Yes, I know. My =
point is that while they<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 might have bee<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; when<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; 5389 was publish=
ed they *now* seem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 crazily<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 long. Did<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0the WG<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; explicitly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; decide not to up=
date them?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, nobody ever sugge=
sted that there<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 was an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 issue there.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OK, well, this seems like it should be<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 considered,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0because this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; doesn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; match modern practice.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; This would be go=
od to explain.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0New text:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 containing th=
e subjectAltName of that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 certificate. <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The test<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEG=
RITY-SHA256 attribute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 indicates that the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; transaction<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 authenticated=
 and that the client<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 implements this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; specification<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 so can proces=
s the ALTERNATE-DOMAIN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; All right.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 message-integrity<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0mechanisms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The considerations around<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 manual vs.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0automatic key<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; derivation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the integrity mechanism, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussed in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0[RFC4107].<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 What mechanisms are used to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 distinguish STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; messages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; from other<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Why is t=
his required? It seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 like that&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a generic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; That text is=
 identical to the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5389.=C2=A0 RFC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A05764/7983<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one such<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; mechanism, b=
ut there is nothing that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 prevent another<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; stack to use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; a different =
mechanism (inference,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 shim, etc...)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; But ultimately n=
o matter what the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 other protocol<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0provides for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; demux, STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; has its<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; own demux.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In fact I think that =
the reason for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that item<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 was because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0FINGERPRINT can also =
be used to demux STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0optional.=C2=A0 So an=
 STUN Usage needs to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tell if<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 FINGERPRINT is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mandatory (like in IC=
E).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This should be explained.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that is not readily subject to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 offline dictionary<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Protection of the channel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 itself,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 using TLS or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0DTLS,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mitigates<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; these<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 STUN supports both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA=
256,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which is subject to bid down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 by an on-path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacker.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; By an on=
-path attacker who can forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 HMAC-SHA1 in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0real-time?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That&#39;s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; pretty s=
erious adversary, so you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clarify here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt; New text:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 STUN supports both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 which is subject to bid down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacks by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an on-path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0attacker<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 would strip the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attribute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0leaving<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0only the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY attribute and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploiting a potenti=
al<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0vulnerability.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 Protection of the channel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 itself, using<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS or DTLS,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mitigates<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0these<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 attacks.=C2=A0 Timely removal of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 support of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 future version of STUN is necessary.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I still don&#39;=
t understand the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 capabilities<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 you seem to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0believe<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacker<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; has.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Can you describe=
 the exact attack.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Vulnerability is f=
ound in HMAC-SHA1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Client Alice still=
 supports M-I and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 M-I-256, does not<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0know<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0version of STUN serve=
r Bob supports and so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 send both.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. On-path attacker r=
emoves M-I-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A05. stunbis server Bob=
 thinks that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alice is an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 5389<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0client and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0continue with that pr=
otocol.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This seems like an extremely weak attack=
. In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 general, any<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0protocol of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this type is as strong<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as the weakest integrity algorithm it<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 supports, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0that the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protocol has a downgrade<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attack, but rather that the minimum algo=
rithm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 supported is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0one you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; trust as much<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as you might like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Marc Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Email: <a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">m=
arc@petit-huguenin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-hugu=
enin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:marc@petit-huguenin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:marc@petit-hugue=
nin.org" target=3D"_blank">marc@petit-huguenin.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Blog: <a href=3D"https://marc.petit-huguenin.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://marc.petit-huguenin.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"https://marc.petit-huguenin.or=
g/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://marc.petit-huguenin.org/</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Profile: <a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000009733a605846866ec--


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From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 01:37:24 +0000
Message-ID: <A695E6C8-E8AF-4277-948E-845EFF62085D@cisco.com>
References: <152390863222.19652.10310304989315386136.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CABcZeBMn1G8BT13bx3JTs04zwQk8K72+btj=xwC662F5AcANXg@mail.gmail.com> <cbb48225-5089-9275-787c-38fa4504a6a4@acm.org> <CABcZeBPNwu-tr8Tf_DiW2iOVy2NDEJoLwAR-6=EWHZak2gVMYg@mail.gmail.com> <c135ad63-bb18-a5f2-4aa2-e2a3268ac26f@acm.org> <CAKKJt-e1XFJNrx-LKmpZFDy6ZuaXt5+Lp+Uw90-Bu-M22PMt3Q@mail.gmail.com> <472563ee-5fc3-655d-8e31-138cc774e608@acm.org> <CAKKJt-dXijVNnAtYojq9x=9_m0pwAM8XTNP8wUEMvAa+m9UXUA@mail.gmail.com> <af0635b1-e731-0198-3b71-e3267bc10d0e@ericsson.com> <CABcZeBPoFnMBQrfDWcc5TV-=HRRX5CVWM2MO6Byf1QvSYztV3w@mail.gmail.com> <CAKKJt-ekdJuDsGFRQziYdeGqemBiVaQVpUYJiZXuTdNDQU9ySg@mail.gmail.com> <97c561a7-c33a-6121-00c4-09cd11646b98@ericsson.com> <CABcZeBPuLPha64QybuPUc-W+fR2Bqn1rAzDsb908uBNqC9z50A@mail.gmail.com> <D99F4FB6-EA38-49F6-AE00-83570455C6D7@cisco.com> <VI1PR07MB5421AC5849B762B682B52D6883630@VI1PR07MB5421.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <CEA96BE8-B0B2-4566-BFB1-6D387D2B1BD6@cisco.com> <4b8f10f7-1eee-c8bc-d9ee-e3f18473de32@ericsson.com> <CABcZeBOHUPPEvGKLz3PXxHkWW+Gaoq=nQrg+0qxh3aa4PFuKnQ@mail.gmail.com>, <CAKKJt-cO=PfpRR8+XOp1Cwn5hmYg5G-ssFgneh96FEo15OFq=Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tram/_ByuQYLbqZBA6Ur2ZUxb27_RWIo>
Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:57:57 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBMXM2g1bDimx2xbWFH1jB_3SCHjgKCgE21fF5sVAGLpNA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>,  Gonzalo Camarillo <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org>,  "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Gonzalo,

This text still seems to me to need some work. Here is a revised version.

SHA-256 was chosen as the new default for password
hashing for its compability with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like
MD5) is a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter
brute force attacks. Specifically, this means that if the
user has a weak password:

* An attacker who captures the server's password file can often
  determine the user's password and thus impersonate the user
  to other servers where they have used that password. Note that
  such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself
  without any brute force attack.

* An attacker who captures a single exchange can brute force
  the user's password and thus potentially impersonate the
  user to the server and other servers where they have used
  the same pasword.

A stronger (which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2
[I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], would help both of these cases, but in the
case of the first attack, only after until the database entry for this
user is updated to exclusively use that stronger mechanism.

The bid-down defenses in this protocol prevent an attacker from
forcing the client and server to complete a handshake using weaker
algorithms than they jointly support, but only if the weakest joint
algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-forced. However,
this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithms;
specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on a
client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing
and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses
for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the
server receives the second request, but that does not prevent the
attacker from obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.

Similarly, an attack against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed
in establishing a session as the server will detect that the feature
was discarded on-path, but the client would still have been convinced
to send its username in clear in the USERNAME attribute, thus
disclosing it to the attacker.

-Ekr


On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) <
gsalguei@cisco.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Spencer.  In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emailed=
 Eric to
> review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCUSS points.
> Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the call yesterday.
> >>
> >
> > Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.
> >
> > If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before
> next
> > Wednesday, I'm happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears his
> > Discuss.
> >
> > If I can help in any way, please let me know.
> >
> > Spencer
> >
> >
> >>
> >> First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for passwo=
rd
> >> hashing:
> >>
> >>  Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern
> >>  standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search
> >>  by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the
> >>  hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2
> >>  [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/] are
> >>  available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here's a stylized version
> >> of the protocol:
> >>
> >> Client                                                  Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                                          <- Nonce, Algorithms
> >> HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) ->
> >>                                 <- HMAC-H1(H2(Password), ...)
> >>
> >> Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashing
> >> function respectively.
> >>
> >> Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and that
> >> both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacker to
> >> complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, if
> >> the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still strong,
> >> then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. This
> >> property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.
> >>
> >> However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.
> >>
> >> First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly support
> >> one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they support
> >> SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows
> >> an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.
> >>
> >>
> >> Client                      Attacker                   Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                            Hello ->
> >>                                      <- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z
> >>                <- Nonce, Alg=3DZ
> >> Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) ->
> >>                        Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))
> >>
> >> The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is
> >> authenticating the transaction, and if you can't trust it to do that,
> >> you can't trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either.
> >>
> >>
> >> During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful to
> >> have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don't think
> >> that that's true either. First, remember that the purpose of H2 is to
> >> prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learning
> >> the user's true password. This is not about defending the server from
> >> attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but about
> >> preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have been
> >> reused on another site.
> >>
> >> Now, it's also possible to brute-force the user's password just from
> >> the protocol transcript: if you capture the client's first message
> >> with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep
> >> trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a
> >> passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are
> >> fast.
> >>
> >> A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the
> >> problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256=
)
> >> and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a
> >> bid-down defense in which it modifies the server's first message to
> >> just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable
> >> message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication
> >> transaction from completing, but that's not necessary for this
> >> attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from
> >> the message it has. To make this work, you would need something
> >> like a PAKE, which this is not.
> >>
> >> Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one
> >> which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually
> >> phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticates
> >> with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort
> >> of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be
> >> active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about
> >> the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just
> >> get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a
> >> not very useful defense.
> >>
> >> I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defense
> >> isn't useful except in the formal "attacker cannot influence
> >> negotiation" sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting this done=
,
> I
> >> guess
> >> I'm willing to let this go if the security considerations make clear
> >> that it is only a very limited mechanism.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >>
> >> [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately
> >> evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic
> >> strength is not important for this question. For instance, you
> >> could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a
> >> secure protocol.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >> gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward once you
> >>> have the call.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Gonzalo
> >>>
> >>>> On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>> Hi Gonzalo -
> >>>>
> >>>> We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself
> on
> >>> March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.  Will update with
> >>> resolutions once this has occurred.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Gonzalo S,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> what is the status of this one?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>>>> Totally agree, Ekr.  Marc and I are meeting to come up with a
> proposal
> >>>>>> but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once
> and
> >>>>>> for all.  We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3=
 weeks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I
> >>> step
> >>>>>>> down, I should think.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to
> >>> this?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>
> >>>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     Not really. I have not received any response to my mail of
> >>>>>>>   Oct 23.
> >>>>>>>>     As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're
> >>>>>>>   reaching
> >>>>>>>>     the limits of what can be accomplished by email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my
> >>>>>>>> understanding.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on
> >>>>>>>   November
> >>>>>>>> 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a
> >>>>>>>   reason
> >>>>>>>> to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>>>     <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         what is the status of this? Are the authors and the
> >>> document
> >>>>>>>>         shepherd
> >>>>>>>>         working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>         On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>         <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on
> >>>>>>>   2018-10-07
> >>>>>>>>         following
> >>>>>>>>>    an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never
> >>>>>>>   got a
> >>>>>>>>         response
> >>>>>>>>>    back.  Because there was no change proposed by
> >>>>>>>   Eric I went
> >>>>>>>>         ahead and
> >>>>>>>>>    published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with
> >>>>>>>   the text
> >>>>>>>>         agreed in
> >>>>>>>>>    response to Adam's and Benjamin's comments.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It sounds like you did the right thing, and that Eric
> >>>>>>>   has now
> >>>>>>>>         responded,
> >>>>>>>>> which is also the right thing to do.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for helping me understand.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>    On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn't
> >>>>>>>   see a
> >>>>>>>>         reply from
> >>>>>>>>>    Eric in
> >>>>>>>>>> this thread. Do you think that you've converged?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought an
> >>>>>>>>         out-of-band
> >>>>>>>>>> conversation might have happened)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>   Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that there is some misunderstanding
> >>>>>>>   in what
> >>>>>>>>         STUNbis is
> >>>>>>>>>    trying to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do, so please see my comments inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've reviewed the new version, but I don't
> >>> think
> >>>>>>>>         that the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion makes much sense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To recap, there are two hashes here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash which you use to store the
> >>>>>>>   password with
> >>>>>>>>         (currently
> >>>>>>>>>    mostly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> MD5)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash you use to compute the MAC
> >>>>>>>   (currently SHA-1).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a
> >>>>>>>   great choice
> >>>>>>>>         here,
> >>>>>>>>>    though SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't a great choice
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the
> >>>>>>>   like.
> >>>>>>>>         With that said,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no sensible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown attack on that hash because it's a
> >>>>>>>>         per-server feature,
> >>>>>>>>>    not a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> per-transaction
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature. So, as long as the server has
> >>>>>>>   MD5-hashed
> >>>>>>>>         passwords, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is bad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to
> >>>>>>>   use SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>         for password
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encryption, so I am not sure where that come
> >>>>>>>   from.
> >>>>>>>>         What we
> >>>>>>>>>    propose is:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but my criticisms
> >>>>>>>   apply
> >>>>>>>>         equally there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.  Our attempts
> >>>>>>>   to add
> >>>>>>>>         other passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>> encryption mechanisms were denied.  It is true
> >>> that
> >>>>>>>>         Argon2 was
> >>>>>>>>>    not in that
> >>>>>>>>>>> list (in our defense Argon2 was not known
> >>>>>>>   before July
> >>>>>>>>         2015), but
> >>>>>>>>>    I do not
> >>>>>>>>>>> see why the WG would have accepted that one
> >>>>>>>   over the
> >>>>>>>>         others.
> >>>>>>>>>    Anyway it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> too late to fix this, as it is my understanding
> >>>>>>>   that
> >>>>>>>>         the WG does
> >>>>>>>>>    not have
> >>>>>>>>>>> enough energy to reach consensus on a new password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm.
> >>>>>>>>>    Someone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> just write a draft adding Argon2 as password
> >>>>>>>>         encryption, as we
> >>>>>>>>>    will have a
> >>>>>>>>>>> IANA registry for that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Establish a registry for new password
> >>>>>>>   algorithms
> >>>>>>>>         (section
> >>>>>>>>>    18.5), so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be added later
> >>>>>>>   (but note
> >>>>>>>>         that our own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals to add more password algorithms were
> >>>>>>>>         rejected by the
> >>>>>>>>>    working
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add a new password algorithm to that registry,
> >>>>>>>>         namely SHA-256.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Register MD5 as an initial password
> >>>>>>>   algorithm for
> >>>>>>>>         backward
> >>>>>>>>>>> compatibility
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the biddown protection itself, it is my
> >>>>>>>>         recollection that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> happened more or less like that:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>>         microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added SHA-256 protection for
> >>>>>>>>         passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 in STUNBis.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           SOMEONE (V.O.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 As MD5 still need to be
> >>>>>>>   supported,
> >>>>>>>>         you need to add
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 protection for bid-down
> >>> attacks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 OK, I'll work on that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Four to eight months has passed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>   microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added a nice mechanism to
> >>>>>>>   prevent
> >>>>>>>>         bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 attacks on passwords.  Any
> >>>>>>>   comments?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           THE ROOM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 (silence)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Moving on...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see how any of this is relevant to my
> >>>>>>>>         technical points
> >>>>>>>>>    above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My point was that we, the co-editors, did not
> >>>>>>>   decide on
> >>>>>>>>         adding
> >>>>>>>>>    bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection, someone asked us to do so and
> >>>>>>>   no-one in the
> >>>>>>>>         WG saw
> >>>>>>>>>    any problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> with that.  The reasons that person wanted that
> >>>>>>>   are not
> >>>>>>>>         known to
> >>>>>>>>>    us but, as
> >>>>>>>>>>> you insist, here's one reason I can think of:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a
> >>>>>>>   password
> >>>>>>>>         database
> >>>>>>>>>    cannot be
> >>>>>>>>>>> re-encrypted at once.  Also for operational
> >>>>>>>   reasons,
> >>>>>>>>         the MD5 password
> >>>>>>>>>>> cannot be immediately removed from the database
> >>>>>>>   as soon
> >>>>>>>>         the user
> >>>>>>>>>    submitted
> >>>>>>>>>>> a new one.  In fact, and for quite some time, both
> >>>>>>>>         encrypted
> >>>>>>>>>    variants of
> >>>>>>>>>>> the same password may have to be kept in that
> >>>>>>>   database,
> >>>>>>>>         because a
> >>>>>>>>>    single
> >>>>>>>>>>> user may use a mix of devices, some of them
> >>>>>>>   that use an
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    client,
> >>>>>>>>>>> some that use a STUNbis client.  It is up to
> >>>>>>>   the STUN
> >>>>>>>>         server owner to
> >>>>>>>>>>> decide how long the migration to STUNbis will
> >>>>>>>   take and
> >>>>>>>>         when it
> >>>>>>>>>    will be
> >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)
> >>>>>>>   clients (that
> >>>>>>>>>    migration time
> >>>>>>>>>>> can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but
> >>>>>>>   that's the
> >>>>>>>>         choice and
> >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility of the owner of the server).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the
> >>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>         client is
> >>>>>>>>>    implementing
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional
> >>>>>>>>         protection of the new
> >>>>>>>>>>> password encryption algorithm.  That's where
> >>>>>>>   the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>    protection kicks
> >>>>>>>>>>> in, by preventing an online attacker to have
> >>>>>>>   the server
> >>>>>>>>>    misidentifying a
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by
> >>>>>>>   preventing an
> >>>>>>>>         online
> >>>>>>>>>    attacker to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server
> >>>>>>>   as a
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    server, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> having both them use the MD5 encrypted password
> >>>>>>>   instead
> >>>>>>>>         of the
> >>>>>>>>>    SHA-256
> >>>>>>>>>>> encrypted password, all of that easily done by
> >>>>>>>>         stripping the
> >>>>>>>>>    unprotected
> >>>>>>>>>>> 401 response of the new STUNbis
> >>> PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS
> >>>>>>>>         attribute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second topic is the hash used to compute
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         MAC. However,
> >>>>>>>>>    I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> see
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this gives you sensible biddown protection
> >>>>>>>   because
> >>>>>>>>         that hash
> >>>>>>>>>    is also
> >>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to compute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has
> >>>>>>>>         compromised a
> >>>>>>>>>    MAC which
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> server
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports will quite likely be able to forge
> >>>>>>>   a MAC
> >>>>>>>>         over the
> >>>>>>>>>    transcript
> >>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. This is,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose, potentially useful as a defense
> >>>>>>>   against
> >>>>>>>>         some other
> >>>>>>>>>    weakness
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (e.g.,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version #), but I don't really see how the
> >>>>>>>   current
> >>>>>>>>         design
> >>>>>>>>>    helps against
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no biddown attack protection for the
> >>>>>>>   MAC, as
> >>>>>>>>         stated in
> >>>>>>>>>    Section
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 16.3:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The bid-down protection mechanism described
> >>>>>>>   in this
> >>>>>>>>         document
> >>>>>>>>>    is new,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus cannot currently protect against a
> >>>>>>>   bid-down
> >>>>>>>>         attack that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to
> >>>>>>>   HMAC-SHA1."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What we put in place is a plan for *future*
> >>>>>>>   versions
> >>>>>>>>         of STUN to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown protection for the MAC.  That's it,
> >>>>>>>   no more,
> >>>>>>>>         no less.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I don't believe that this will
> >>>>>>>   provide bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>    protection for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate
> >>>>>>>   above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you think this does something useful,
> >>>>>>>   please show me an
> >>>>>>>>>    example attack
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and how this fixes it. Note that it's not
> >>>>>>>   generally
> >>>>>>>>         useful to
> >>>>>>>>>    just bid
> >>>>>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to
> >>>>>>>   is weak
> >>>>>>>>         enough to
> >>>>>>>>>    exploit
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> some other way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I do not know what weaknesses will be
> >>>>>>>   discovered in the
> >>>>>>>>         future.
> >>>>>>>>>    I am also
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure that the cost of not using that
> >>>>>>>   mechanism
> >>>>>>>>         is very
> >>>>>>>>>    close to 0.
> >>>>>>>>>>> What I am sure of is that the cost of
> >>>>>>>   reengineering a
> >>>>>>>>         new biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection mechanism if we ever need it will be
> >>>>>>>   high.
> >>>>>>>>         We already
> >>>>>>>>>    went
> >>>>>>>>>>> through the pains of designing one for the
> >>> password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm, so
> >>>>>>>>>    why not
> >>>>>>>>>>> extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         next Snowden
> >>>>>>>>>    facepalm
> >>>>>>>>>>> moment?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, happy to have a call to walk though
> >>>>>>>   this if that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> helps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You might think that there was a MAC which
> >>>>>>>   was easier to
> >>>>>>>>>    reverse to
> >>>>>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the original
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> password, but the defense you have here
> >>>>>>>   doesn't help
> >>>>>>>>         with that
> >>>>>>>>>    because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the
> >>>>>>>>         client as a MAC
> >>>>>>>>>    oracle
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any MAC the client supports.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, I still don't understand what this is
> >>>>>>>   supposed
> >>>>>>>>         to do. Happy to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> call if you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that helps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>   Camarillo <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marc, Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is the status of this discussion?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla
> >>>>>>>   wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     For a request or indication
> >>>>>>>   message,
> >>>>>>>>         the agent
> >>>>>>>>>    MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> include the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     USERNAME,
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attributes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     in the message unless the agent
> >>>>>>>>         knows from an
> >>>>>>>>>    external
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     which message integrity
> >>>>>>>   algorithm is
> >>>>>>>>         supported
> >>>>>>>>>    by both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agents.  In
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     this case either
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be included in addition to
> >>>>>>>>         USERNAME.  The HMAC
> >>>>>>>>>    for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This text appears to conflict with
> >>>>>>>   S 7.3 of
> >>>>>>>>>    5245-bis, which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> says:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [text missing]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still
> >>> referencing
> >>>>>>>>         RFC5389, so the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> procedure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stunbis does not apply.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying, but
> >>>>>>>   publishing two
> >>>>>>>>>    documents at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make contrary recommendations about
> >>>>>>>   the same
> >>>>>>>>         basic
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have
> >>>>>>>>         rfc5245bis
> >>>>>>>>>    using stunbis
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and have them updating their text,
> >>>>>>>   more than
> >>>>>>>>         adding some
> >>>>>>>>>    tortuous
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    text in stunbis?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The STUN usage must specify
> >>> which
> >>>>>>>>         transport
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the agent determines the IP
> >>>>>>>   address
> >>>>>>>>         and port
> >>>>>>>>>    of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Section 8 describes a DNS-based
> >>>>>>>>         method of
> >>>>>>>>>    determining
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and port of a server that a
> >>>>>>>   usage
> >>>>>>>>         may elect to
> >>>>>>>>>    use.
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with anycast addresses, but
> >>> only
> >>>>>>>>         with UDP and
> >>>>>>>>>    in usages
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     authentication is not used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why this restriction? You should
> >>>>>>>   be able
> >>>>>>>>         to use
> >>>>>>>>>    anycast with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-term
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>          <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that the decision of
> >>>>>>>   permitting Anycast
> >>>>>>>>>    should be left
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does
> >>>>>>>   not use
> >>>>>>>>>    authentication and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one round trip for the Binding
> >>>>>>>   transaction, so
> >>>>>>>>>    Unicast can be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say
> >>>>>>>>         something
> >>>>>>>>>    about that,
> >>>>>>>>>>> so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new bullet point in Section 13:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   o  If Anycast addresses can be
> >>>>>>>   used for
> >>>>>>>>         the server
> >>>>>>>>>    in case
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      TLS-over-TCP, or
> >>>>>>>   authentication are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you leaving this text in? That
> >>> seems
> >>>>>>>>         very confusing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    In isolation yes, but I think it makes
> >>>>>>>   sense
> >>>>>>>>         which the text
> >>>>>>>>>>> before
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    the bullet points:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A STUN usage defines how STUN is
> >>>>>>>   actually
> >>>>>>>>         utilized --
> >>>>>>>>>    when to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> send
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       requests, what to do with the
> >>>>>>>   responses,
> >>>>>>>>         and which
> >>>>>>>>>    optional
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       procedures defined here (or in an
> >>>>>>>   extension
> >>>>>>>>         to STUN)
> >>>>>>>>>    are to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A usage also defines:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       o  If Anycast addresses can be used
> >>>>>>>   for the
> >>>>>>>>         server in
> >>>>>>>>>    case TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          TLS-over-TCP, or authentication
> >>>>>>>   are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is the need for the restriction at all
>

--000000000000fccbbb05848c0b73
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gonzalo,<br><br>This text still seems to =
me to need some work. Here is a revised version.<br><br>SHA-256 was chosen =
as the new default for password=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>hashing for its compa=
bility with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>MD5) i=
s a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter<br>brute force at=
tacks. Specifically, this means that if the<br>user has a weak password:<br=
><br>* An attacker who captures the server&#39;s password file can often<br=
>=C2=A0 determine the user&#39;s password and thus impersonate the user<br>=
=C2=A0 to other servers where they have used that password. Note that<br>=
=C2=A0 such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself<br>=
=C2=A0 without any brute force attack.<br><br>* An attacker who captures a =
single exchange can brute force<br>=C2=A0 the user&#39;s password and thus =
potentially impersonate the<br>=C2=A0 user to the server and other servers =
where they have used<br>=C2=A0 the same pasword.<br>=C2=A0 <br>A stronger (=
which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2<br>[I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], w=
ould help both of these cases, but in the<br>case of the first attack, only=
 after until the database entry for this<br>user is updated to exclusively =
use that stronger mechanism.<br><br>The bid-down defenses in this protocol =
prevent an attacker from<br>forcing the client and server to complete a han=
dshake using weaker<br>algorithms than they jointly support, but only if th=
e weakest joint<br>algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-force=
d. However,<br>this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithm=
s;<br>specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on =
a<br>client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing<br=
>and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses<br>=
for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the<br>serve=
r receives the second request, but that does not prevent the<br>attacker fr=
om obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.<br><br>Similarly, an attac=
k against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed<br>in establishing a sess=
ion as the server will detect that the feature<br>was discarded on-path, bu=
t the client would still have been convinced<br>to send its username in cle=
ar in the USERNAME attribute, thus<br>disclosing it to the attacker.<br><br=
>-Ekr<br><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalg=
uei) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gsalguei@cisco.com">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks, Sp=
encer.=C2=A0 In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emailed Eric t=
o review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCUSS points.=
 Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Gonzalo <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Dear All,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for the call yesterday.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before=
 next<br>
&gt; Wednesday, I&#39;m happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears =
his<br>
&gt; Discuss.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If I can help in any way, please let me know.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for pa=
ssword<br>
&gt;&gt; hashing:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet =
modern<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive passwo=
rd search<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg=
-argon2/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/</a>] are<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here&#39;s a stylized ve=
rsion<br>
&gt;&gt; of the protocol:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt; HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;- HMAC-H1(H2(Passwo=
rd), ...)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashi=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; function respectively.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacke=
r to<br>
&gt;&gt; complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, i=
f<br>
&gt;&gt; the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still stron=
g,<br>
&gt;&gt; then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. T=
his<br>
&gt;&gt; property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly supp=
ort<br>
&gt;&gt; one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they sup=
port<br>
&gt;&gt; SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follow=
s.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Attacker=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- No=
nce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce=
, Alg=3DZ<br>
&gt;&gt; Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is<br>
&gt;&gt; authenticating the transaction, and if you can&#39;t trust it to d=
o that,<br>
&gt;&gt; you can&#39;t trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either=
.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful t=
o<br>
&gt;&gt; have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don&#39=
;t think<br>
&gt;&gt; that that&#39;s true either. First, remember that the purpose of H=
2 is to<br>
&gt;&gt; prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learni=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; the user&#39;s true password. This is not about defending the serv=
er from<br>
&gt;&gt; attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but abo=
ut<br>
&gt;&gt; preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have =
been<br>
&gt;&gt; reused on another site.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, it&#39;s also possible to brute-force the user&#39;s password=
 just from<br>
&gt;&gt; the protocol transcript: if you capture the client&#39;s first mes=
sage<br>
&gt;&gt; with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just k=
eep<br>
&gt;&gt; trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a<=
br>
&gt;&gt; passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 =
are<br>
&gt;&gt; fast.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA=
-256)<br>
&gt;&gt; and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a=
<br>
&gt;&gt; bid-down defense in which it modifies the server&#39;s first messa=
ge to<br>
&gt;&gt; just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication<br>
&gt;&gt; transaction from completing, but that&#39;s not necessary for this=
<br>
&gt;&gt; attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from=
<br>
&gt;&gt; the message it has. To make this work, you would need something<br=
>
&gt;&gt; like a PAKE, which this is not.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one<br=
>
&gt;&gt; which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually<=
br>
&gt;&gt; phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticat=
es<br>
&gt;&gt; with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort<=
br>
&gt;&gt; of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be<br>
&gt;&gt; active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about<=
br>
&gt;&gt; the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just<br>
&gt;&gt; get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; not very useful defense.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defe=
nse<br>
&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t useful except in the formal &quot;attacker cannot influe=
nce<br>
&gt;&gt; negotiation&quot; sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting =
this done, I<br>
&gt;&gt; guess<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m willing to let this go if the security considerations make=
 clear<br>
&gt;&gt; that it is only a very limited mechanism.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately<=
br>
&gt;&gt; evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic=
<br>
&gt;&gt; strength is not important for this question. For instance, you<br>
&gt;&gt; could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a<br>
&gt;&gt; secure protocol.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward on=
ce you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; have the call.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo -<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc =
and myself on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.=C2=A0 Will=
 update with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resolutions once this has occurred.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo S,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the status of this one?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) w=
rote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Totally agree, Ekr.=C2=A0 Marc and I are meeting t=
o come up with a proposal<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; but I do agree we need to have a call to get this =
put to bed once and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for all.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential =
dates in the next 2-3 weeks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We really need to bring this to a close before=
 both Spencer and I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; step<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down, I should think.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camari=
llo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericss=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo=
@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric, Spencer, thanks for the stat=
us update!<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors, could you please let us k=
now when you plan to get to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; this?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Da=
wkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Gonzalo,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Resco=
rla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not really. I have not =
received any response to my mail of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Oct 23.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As before, I&#39;m happ=
y to have a call, but I believe we&#39;re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reaching<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the limits of what can =
be accomplished by email.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric would know best (it being his Discuss=
), but this is also my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understanding.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I can add this to the agenda of the IESG i=
nformal telechat on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0November<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 29, if there hasn&#39;t been a call before=
 then, but I don&#39;t have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reason<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to wait until then, if it&#39;s possible t=
o talk sooner.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at=
 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
onzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson=
.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@e=
ricsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Spence=
r,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what is t=
he status of this? Are the authors and the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0shepherd<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working w=
ith the relevant ADs on the discusses?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-st=
un-pmtud/ballot/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 24=
-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc P=
etit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@=
acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I sent my answers to Eric=
 Rescorla questions on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A02018-10-07<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 an in-person meeting with=
 my co-author, but never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0got a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0response<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 back.=C2=A0 Because there=
 was no change proposed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric I went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ahead and=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 published -19 a couple of=
 weeks after that, with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agreed in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 response to Adam&#39;s an=
d Benjamin&#39;s comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/=
msg02635.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
il-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ah - I wonder if that was what had hap=
pened.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It sounds like you did the right thing=
, and that Eric<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0has now<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responded=
,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which is also the right thing to do.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for helping me understand.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, =
Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I see that a -19 has been submitte=
d, but didn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0see a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reply fro=
m<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this thread. Do you think that you=
&#39;ve converged?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (I saw an offer of a conference ca=
ll, so thought an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out-of-ba=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; conversation might have happened)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Mar=
c Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please see inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Er=
ic Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:3=
1 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Apologies for the dela=
y in getting back to that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think that there is =
some misunderstanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0STUNbis i=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; do, so please see my c=
omments inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 06/18/2018 10:4=
3 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed =
the new version, but I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that the =
biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion makes m=
uch sense.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To recap, there ar=
e two hashes here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash which y=
ou use to store the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(currentl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mostly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash you use=
 to compute the MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(currently SHA-1).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; First, let&#39;s s=
tipulate that MD5 isn&#39;t a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t a great =
choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either for pwd has=
hing You want Argon or the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0With that=
 said,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; no sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown attack on =
that hash because it&#39;s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0per-serve=
r feature,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per-transaction<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature. So, as lo=
ng as the server has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MD5-hashed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
, the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; situation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is bad.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In no place in STUNbis=
 we are proposing to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0use SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for passw=
ord<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption, so I am no=
t sure where that come<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0from.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What we<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose is:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, it&#39;s=
 SHA-256, but my criticisms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equally t=
here.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SHA-256 was what the WG adopte=
d.=C2=A0 Our attempts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other pas=
swords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption mechanisms were den=
ied.=C2=A0 It is true<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Argon2 wa=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; list (in our defense Argon2 wa=
s not known<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0before July<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02015), bu=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I do not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see why the WG would have acce=
pted that one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyway it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; too late to fix this, as it is=
 my understanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG do=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; enough energy to reach consens=
us on a new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Someone can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; just write a draft adding Argo=
n2 as password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encryptio=
n, as we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IANA registry for that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Establish a registry=
 for new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(section<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 18.5), so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; algorithms like Argon2=
 could be added later<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(but note<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that our =
own<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proposals to add more =
password algorithms were<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rejected =
by the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 working<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add a new password a=
lgorithm to that registry,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0namely SH=
A-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Register MD5 as an i=
nitial password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0backward<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purpose.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the biddown pro=
tection itself, it is my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0recollect=
ion that it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happened more or less =
like that:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. MEETING ROOM - DA=
Y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One of the co-editors =
of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0microphon=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added SHA-256 protection for<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in STUNBis.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0SOMEONE (V.O.)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As MD5 still need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supported,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you need =
to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protection for bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR =
ROLLING HIS EYES<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OK, I&#39;ll work on that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Four to eight months h=
as passed.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. ANOTHER MEETING R=
OOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The same co-editor of =
STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added a nice mechanism to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0prevent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacks on passwords.=C2=A0 Any<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0comments?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0THE ROOM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(silence)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Moving on...<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see how any of=
 this is relevant to my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0technical=
 points<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My point was that we, the co-e=
ditors, did not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0decide on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection, someone asked us t=
o do so and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no-one in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG saw<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any problem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with that.=C2=A0 The reasons t=
hat person wanted that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0known to<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 us but, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you insist, here&#39;s one rea=
son I can think of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is a fact that, for operati=
onal reasons, a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0database<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cannot be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; re-encrypted at once.=C2=A0 Al=
so for operational<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MD5 p=
assword<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cannot be immediately removed =
from the database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as soon<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the user<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 submitted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a new one.=C2=A0 In fact, and =
for quite some time, both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encrypted=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 variants of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the same password may have to =
be kept in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0database,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; user may use a mix of devices,=
 some of them<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that use an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 client,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some that use a STUNbis client=
.=C2=A0 It is up to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server ow=
ner to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; decide how long the migration =
to STUNbis will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0take and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when it<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; acceptable to reject all RFC 5=
389 (i.e. MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients (that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 migration time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be purposely reduced to 0 =
seconds but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that&#39;s the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0choice an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; responsibility of the owner of=
 the server).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Meanwhile we still need to be =
sure that if the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client is=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis it unconditionally get=
s the additional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protectio=
n of the new<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password encryption algorithm.=
=C2=A0 That&#39;s where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection kicks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in, by preventing an online at=
tacker to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 misidentifying a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 =
client, by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0preventing an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0online<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacker to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have the client misidentifying=
 a STUNbis server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; having both them use the MD5 e=
ncrypted password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0instead<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SHA-256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encrypted password, all of tha=
t easily done by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 unprotected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 401 response of the new STUNbi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second topic i=
s the hash used to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC. Howe=
ver,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this gives you sen=
sible biddown protection<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that hash=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC over the negot=
iation: an attacker who has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compromis=
ed a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supports will quit=
e likely be able to forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transcript<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well. This is,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose, potenti=
ally useful as a defense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0some othe=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 weakness<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; version #), but I =
don&#39;t really see how the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0current<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 helps against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no biddown at=
tack protection for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stated in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16.3:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The bid-down pro=
tection mechanism described<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is new,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and thus cannot curren=
tly protect against a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attack th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lowers the strength of=
 the hash algorithm to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0HMAC-SHA1.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What we put in place i=
s a plan for *future*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0versions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of STUN t=
o get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown protection for=
 the MAC.=C2=A0 That&#39;s it,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no more,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0no less.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, but I don&#39;t belie=
ve that this will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0provide bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC in the future for the =
reasons I indicate<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If you think this does som=
ething useful,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0please show me an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 example attack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and how this fixes it. Not=
e that it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0generally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 just bid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the MAC itself unless the =
MAC you bid down to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0is weak<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enough to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some other way.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I do not know what weaknesses =
will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0discovered in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0future.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I am also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pretty sure that the cost of n=
ot using that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is very<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 close to 0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What I am sure of is that the =
cost of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reengineering a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0new biddo=
wn<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection mechanism if we eve=
r need it will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0high.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We alread=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; through the pains of designing=
 one for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 why not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; extend it so it can be used in=
 the aftermath of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0next Snow=
den<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 facepalm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; moment?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, happy to have a cal=
l to walk though<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0this if that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; helps.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You might think th=
at there was a MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0was easier to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reverse to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; find<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the original<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password, but the =
defense you have here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t help<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with that=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on-path attacker c=
an do a bid-down and use the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client as=
 a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 oracle<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any MAC the client=
 supports.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So, I still don&#3=
9;t understand what this is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to do. Ha=
ppy to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; call if you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; think that helps<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 18, 20=
18 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:=
Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsso=
n.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@eri=
csson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Marc, Eric,<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the st=
atus of this discussion?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/05/2=
018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Ap=
r 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:peti=
thug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun=
, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For a request or indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0message,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at=
tributes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the message unless the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0knows fro=
m an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which message integrity<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supported=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agents.=C2=A0 =
In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this case either<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGR=
ITY-SHA256 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be included in addition to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME.=
=C2=A0 The HMAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; This text appears to conflict with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0S 7.3 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5245-bis, which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [t=
ext missing]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hm=
m, no, RFC245bis is still<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; referencing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC5389, =
so the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; st=
unbis does not apply.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I hear=
 what you&#39;re saying, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0publishing two<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; same time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; make c=
ontrary recommendations about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the same<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0basic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; un-good.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Sure, but wouldn&#39;t it be simpler to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rfc5245bi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 using stunbis<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 and have them updating their text,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0more than<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding so=
me<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tortuous<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 text in stunbis?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The STUN usage must specify<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ho=
w<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent determines the IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0address<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; recipient.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 8 describes a DNS-based<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 determining<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ad=
dress<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port of a server that a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0usage<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0may elect=
 to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; may be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; us=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with anycast addresses, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; only<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with UDP =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in usages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication is not used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Why this restriction? You should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0be able<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to use<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anycast with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; long-term<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; AUTH for (say) TURN.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/<=
/a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/curren=
t/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I =
think that the decision of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0permitting Anycast<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be left<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ST=
UN Usage.=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0not use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on=
e round trip for the Binding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unicast can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OT=
OH, TURN and ICE should probably say<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 about that,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; added a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ne=
w bullet point in Section 13:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0used for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in case<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Are yo=
u leaving this text in? That<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very conf=
using.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 In isolation yes, but I think it makes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0sense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which the=
 text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; before<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 the bullet points:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A STUN usage defines how STUN is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0actually<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0utilized =
--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requests, what to do with the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0responses,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and which=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures defined here (or in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to STUN)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A usage also defines:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 [...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or authentication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is th=
e need for the restriction at all<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000fccbbb05848c0b73--


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From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 11:57:28 -0700
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPN34yxMkb=LnOCXfehGdf_WeLFf+7w8PWt_3RZKoYdOA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>,  "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-16: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Spencer, why don't; you override it and then I can take a final look

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:22 AM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) <
gsalguei@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric -
>
> I=E2=80=99m attaching the -21 that will be published once the I-D submiss=
ion tool
> opens up (or Spencer can override and it published before then).  It uses
> your proposed bid down protection disclaimer text (save for minor nits I
> cleaned up).
>
> If this looks good then from my perspective we are done and your DISCUSS
> can be cleared and we can proceed with publication.
>
> Thanks for all your help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:57 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> Gonzalo,
>
> This text still seems to me to need some work. Here is a revised version.
>
> SHA-256 was chosen as the new default for password
> hashing for its compability with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like
> MD5) is a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter
> brute force attacks. Specifically, this means that if the
> user has a weak password:
>
> * An attacker who captures the server's password file can often
>   determine the user's password and thus impersonate the user
>   to other servers where they have used that password. Note that
>   such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself
>   without any brute force attack.
>
> * An attacker who captures a single exchange can brute force
>   the user's password and thus potentially impersonate the
>   user to the server and other servers where they have used
>   the same pasword.
>
> A stronger (which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2
> [I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], would help both of these cases, but in the
> case of the first attack, only after until the database entry for this
> user is updated to exclusively use that stronger mechanism.
>
> The bid-down defenses in this protocol prevent an attacker from
> forcing the client and server to complete a handshake using weaker
> algorithms than they jointly support, but only if the weakest joint
> algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-forced. However,
> this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithms;
> specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on a
> client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing
> and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses
> for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the
> server receives the second request, but that does not prevent the
> attacker from obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.
>
> Similarly, an attack against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed
> in establishing a session as the server will detect that the feature
> was discarded on-path, but the client would still have been convinced
> to send its username in clear in the USERNAME attribute, thus
> disclosing it to the attacker.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) <
> gsalguei@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Spencer.  In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emailed=
 Eric to
> review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCUSS points.
> Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the call yesterday.
> >>
> >
> > Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.
> >
> > If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before
> next
> > Wednesday, I'm happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears his
> > Discuss.
> >
> > If I can help in any way, please let me know.
> >
> > Spencer
> >
> >
> >>
> >> First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for passwo=
rd
> >> hashing:
> >>
> >>  Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern
> >>  standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search
> >>  by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the
> >>  hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2
> >>  [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/] are
> >>  available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here's a stylized version
> >> of the protocol:
> >>
> >> Client                                                  Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                                          <- Nonce, Algorithms
> >> HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) ->
> >>                                 <- HMAC-H1(H2(Password), ...)
> >>
> >> Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashing
> >> function respectively.
> >>
> >> Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and that
> >> both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacker to
> >> complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, if
> >> the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still strong,
> >> then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. This
> >> property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.
> >>
> >> However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.
> >>
> >> First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly support
> >> one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they support
> >> SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows
> >> an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.
> >>
> >>
> >> Client                      Attacker                   Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                            Hello ->
> >>                                      <- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z
> >>                <- Nonce, Alg=3DZ
> >> Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) ->
> >>                        Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))
> >>
> >> The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is
> >> authenticating the transaction, and if you can't trust it to do that,
> >> you can't trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either.
> >>
> >>
> >> During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful to
> >> have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don't think
> >> that that's true either. First, remember that the purpose of H2 is to
> >> prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learning
> >> the user's true password. This is not about defending the server from
> >> attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but about
> >> preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have been
> >> reused on another site.
> >>
> >> Now, it's also possible to brute-force the user's password just from
> >> the protocol transcript: if you capture the client's first message
> >> with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep
> >> trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a
> >> passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are
> >> fast.
> >>
> >> A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the
> >> problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256=
)
> >> and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a
> >> bid-down defense in which it modifies the server's first message to
> >> just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable
> >> message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication
> >> transaction from completing, but that's not necessary for this
> >> attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from
> >> the message it has. To make this work, you would need something
> >> like a PAKE, which this is not.
> >>
> >> Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one
> >> which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually
> >> phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticates
> >> with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort
> >> of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be
> >> active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about
> >> the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just
> >> get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a
> >> not very useful defense.
> >>
> >> I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defense
> >> isn't useful except in the formal "attacker cannot influence
> >> negotiation" sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting this done=
,
> I
> >> guess
> >> I'm willing to let this go if the security considerations make clear
> >> that it is only a very limited mechanism.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >>
> >> [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately
> >> evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic
> >> strength is not important for this question. For instance, you
> >> could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a
> >> secure protocol.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >> gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward once you
> >>> have the call.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Gonzalo
> >>>
> >>>> On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>> Hi Gonzalo -
> >>>>
> >>>> We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself
> on
> >>> March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.  Will update with
> >>> resolutions once this has occurred.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Gonzalo S,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> what is the status of this one?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>>>> Totally agree, Ekr.  Marc and I are meeting to come up with a
> proposal
> >>>>>> but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once
> and
> >>>>>> for all.  We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3=
 weeks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I
> >>> step
> >>>>>>> down, I should think.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to
> >>> this?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>
> >>>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     Not really. I have not received any response to my mail of
> >>>>>>>   Oct 23.
> >>>>>>>>     As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're
> >>>>>>>   reaching
> >>>>>>>>     the limits of what can be accomplished by email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my
> >>>>>>>> understanding.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on
> >>>>>>>   November
> >>>>>>>> 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a
> >>>>>>>   reason
> >>>>>>>> to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>>>     <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         what is the status of this? Are the authors and the
> >>> document
> >>>>>>>>         shepherd
> >>>>>>>>         working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>         On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>         <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on
> >>>>>>>   2018-10-07
> >>>>>>>>         following
> >>>>>>>>>    an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never
> >>>>>>>   got a
> >>>>>>>>         response
> >>>>>>>>>    back.  Because there was no change proposed by
> >>>>>>>   Eric I went
> >>>>>>>>         ahead and
> >>>>>>>>>    published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with
> >>>>>>>   the text
> >>>>>>>>         agreed in
> >>>>>>>>>    response to Adam's and Benjamin's comments.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It sounds like you did the right thing, and that Eric
> >>>>>>>   has now
> >>>>>>>>         responded,
> >>>>>>>>> which is also the right thing to do.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for helping me understand.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>    On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn't
> >>>>>>>   see a
> >>>>>>>>         reply from
> >>>>>>>>>    Eric in
> >>>>>>>>>> this thread. Do you think that you've converged?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought an
> >>>>>>>>         out-of-band
> >>>>>>>>>> conversation might have happened)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>   Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that there is some misunderstanding
> >>>>>>>   in what
> >>>>>>>>         STUNbis is
> >>>>>>>>>    trying to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do, so please see my comments inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've reviewed the new version, but I don't
> >>> think
> >>>>>>>>         that the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion makes much sense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To recap, there are two hashes here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash which you use to store the
> >>>>>>>   password with
> >>>>>>>>         (currently
> >>>>>>>>>    mostly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> MD5)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash you use to compute the MAC
> >>>>>>>   (currently SHA-1).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a
> >>>>>>>   great choice
> >>>>>>>>         here,
> >>>>>>>>>    though SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't a great choice
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the
> >>>>>>>   like.
> >>>>>>>>         With that said,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no sensible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown attack on that hash because it's a
> >>>>>>>>         per-server feature,
> >>>>>>>>>    not a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> per-transaction
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature. So, as long as the server has
> >>>>>>>   MD5-hashed
> >>>>>>>>         passwords, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is bad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to
> >>>>>>>   use SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>         for password
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encryption, so I am not sure where that come
> >>>>>>>   from.
> >>>>>>>>         What we
> >>>>>>>>>    propose is:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but my criticisms
> >>>>>>>   apply
> >>>>>>>>         equally there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.  Our attempts
> >>>>>>>   to add
> >>>>>>>>         other passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>> encryption mechanisms were denied.  It is true
> >>> that
> >>>>>>>>         Argon2 was
> >>>>>>>>>    not in that
> >>>>>>>>>>> list (in our defense Argon2 was not known
> >>>>>>>   before July
> >>>>>>>>         2015), but
> >>>>>>>>>    I do not
> >>>>>>>>>>> see why the WG would have accepted that one
> >>>>>>>   over the
> >>>>>>>>         others.
> >>>>>>>>>    Anyway it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> too late to fix this, as it is my understanding
> >>>>>>>   that
> >>>>>>>>         the WG does
> >>>>>>>>>    not have
> >>>>>>>>>>> enough energy to reach consensus on a new password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm.
> >>>>>>>>>    Someone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> just write a draft adding Argon2 as password
> >>>>>>>>         encryption, as we
> >>>>>>>>>    will have a
> >>>>>>>>>>> IANA registry for that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Establish a registry for new password
> >>>>>>>   algorithms
> >>>>>>>>         (section
> >>>>>>>>>    18.5), so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be added later
> >>>>>>>   (but note
> >>>>>>>>         that our own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals to add more password algorithms were
> >>>>>>>>         rejected by the
> >>>>>>>>>    working
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add a new password algorithm to that registry,
> >>>>>>>>         namely SHA-256.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Register MD5 as an initial password
> >>>>>>>   algorithm for
> >>>>>>>>         backward
> >>>>>>>>>>> compatibility
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the biddown protection itself, it is my
> >>>>>>>>         recollection that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> happened more or less like that:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>>         microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added SHA-256 protection for
> >>>>>>>>         passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 in STUNBis.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           SOMEONE (V.O.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 As MD5 still need to be
> >>>>>>>   supported,
> >>>>>>>>         you need to add
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 protection for bid-down
> >>> attacks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 OK, I'll work on that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Four to eight months has passed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>   microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added a nice mechanism to
> >>>>>>>   prevent
> >>>>>>>>         bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 attacks on passwords.  Any
> >>>>>>>   comments?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           THE ROOM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 (silence)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Moving on...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see how any of this is relevant to my
> >>>>>>>>         technical points
> >>>>>>>>>    above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My point was that we, the co-editors, did not
> >>>>>>>   decide on
> >>>>>>>>         adding
> >>>>>>>>>    bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection, someone asked us to do so and
> >>>>>>>   no-one in the
> >>>>>>>>         WG saw
> >>>>>>>>>    any problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> with that.  The reasons that person wanted that
> >>>>>>>   are not
> >>>>>>>>         known to
> >>>>>>>>>    us but, as
> >>>>>>>>>>> you insist, here's one reason I can think of:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a
> >>>>>>>   password
> >>>>>>>>         database
> >>>>>>>>>    cannot be
> >>>>>>>>>>> re-encrypted at once.  Also for operational
> >>>>>>>   reasons,
> >>>>>>>>         the MD5 password
> >>>>>>>>>>> cannot be immediately removed from the database
> >>>>>>>   as soon
> >>>>>>>>         the user
> >>>>>>>>>    submitted
> >>>>>>>>>>> a new one.  In fact, and for quite some time, both
> >>>>>>>>         encrypted
> >>>>>>>>>    variants of
> >>>>>>>>>>> the same password may have to be kept in that
> >>>>>>>   database,
> >>>>>>>>         because a
> >>>>>>>>>    single
> >>>>>>>>>>> user may use a mix of devices, some of them
> >>>>>>>   that use an
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    client,
> >>>>>>>>>>> some that use a STUNbis client.  It is up to
> >>>>>>>   the STUN
> >>>>>>>>         server owner to
> >>>>>>>>>>> decide how long the migration to STUNbis will
> >>>>>>>   take and
> >>>>>>>>         when it
> >>>>>>>>>    will be
> >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)
> >>>>>>>   clients (that
> >>>>>>>>>    migration time
> >>>>>>>>>>> can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but
> >>>>>>>   that's the
> >>>>>>>>         choice and
> >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility of the owner of the server).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the
> >>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>         client is
> >>>>>>>>>    implementing
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional
> >>>>>>>>         protection of the new
> >>>>>>>>>>> password encryption algorithm.  That's where
> >>>>>>>   the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>    protection kicks
> >>>>>>>>>>> in, by preventing an online attacker to have
> >>>>>>>   the server
> >>>>>>>>>    misidentifying a
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by
> >>>>>>>   preventing an
> >>>>>>>>         online
> >>>>>>>>>    attacker to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server
> >>>>>>>   as a
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    server, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> having both them use the MD5 encrypted password
> >>>>>>>   instead
> >>>>>>>>         of the
> >>>>>>>>>    SHA-256
> >>>>>>>>>>> encrypted password, all of that easily done by
> >>>>>>>>         stripping the
> >>>>>>>>>    unprotected
> >>>>>>>>>>> 401 response of the new STUNbis
> >>> PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS
> >>>>>>>>         attribute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second topic is the hash used to compute
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         MAC. However,
> >>>>>>>>>    I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> see
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this gives you sensible biddown protection
> >>>>>>>   because
> >>>>>>>>         that hash
> >>>>>>>>>    is also
> >>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to compute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has
> >>>>>>>>         compromised a
> >>>>>>>>>    MAC which
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> server
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports will quite likely be able to forge
> >>>>>>>   a MAC
> >>>>>>>>         over the
> >>>>>>>>>    transcript
> >>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. This is,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose, potentially useful as a defense
> >>>>>>>   against
> >>>>>>>>         some other
> >>>>>>>>>    weakness
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (e.g.,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version #), but I don't really see how the
> >>>>>>>   current
> >>>>>>>>         design
> >>>>>>>>>    helps against
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no biddown attack protection for the
> >>>>>>>   MAC, as
> >>>>>>>>         stated in
> >>>>>>>>>    Section
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 16.3:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The bid-down protection mechanism described
> >>>>>>>   in this
> >>>>>>>>         document
> >>>>>>>>>    is new,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus cannot currently protect against a
> >>>>>>>   bid-down
> >>>>>>>>         attack that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to
> >>>>>>>   HMAC-SHA1."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What we put in place is a plan for *future*
> >>>>>>>   versions
> >>>>>>>>         of STUN to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown protection for the MAC.  That's it,
> >>>>>>>   no more,
> >>>>>>>>         no less.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I don't believe that this will
> >>>>>>>   provide bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>    protection for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate
> >>>>>>>   above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you think this does something useful,
> >>>>>>>   please show me an
> >>>>>>>>>    example attack
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and how this fixes it. Note that it's not
> >>>>>>>   generally
> >>>>>>>>         useful to
> >>>>>>>>>    just bid
> >>>>>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to
> >>>>>>>   is weak
> >>>>>>>>         enough to
> >>>>>>>>>    exploit
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> some other way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I do not know what weaknesses will be
> >>>>>>>   discovered in the
> >>>>>>>>         future.
> >>>>>>>>>    I am also
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure that the cost of not using that
> >>>>>>>   mechanism
> >>>>>>>>         is very
> >>>>>>>>>    close to 0.
> >>>>>>>>>>> What I am sure of is that the cost of
> >>>>>>>   reengineering a
> >>>>>>>>         new biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection mechanism if we ever need it will be
> >>>>>>>   high.
> >>>>>>>>         We already
> >>>>>>>>>    went
> >>>>>>>>>>> through the pains of designing one for the
> >>> password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm, so
> >>>>>>>>>    why not
> >>>>>>>>>>> extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         next Snowden
> >>>>>>>>>    facepalm
> >>>>>>>>>>> moment?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, happy to have a call to walk though
> >>>>>>>   this if that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> helps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You might think that there was a MAC which
> >>>>>>>   was easier to
> >>>>>>>>>    reverse to
> >>>>>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the original
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> password, but the defense you have here
> >>>>>>>   doesn't help
> >>>>>>>>         with that
> >>>>>>>>>    because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the
> >>>>>>>>         client as a MAC
> >>>>>>>>>    oracle
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any MAC the client supports.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, I still don't understand what this is
> >>>>>>>   supposed
> >>>>>>>>         to do. Happy to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> call if you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that helps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>   Camarillo <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marc, Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is the status of this discussion?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla
> >>>>>>>   wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     For a request or indication
> >>>>>>>   message,
> >>>>>>>>         the agent
> >>>>>>>>>    MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> include the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     USERNAME,
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attributes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     in the message unless the agent
> >>>>>>>>         knows from an
> >>>>>>>>>    external
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     which message integrity
> >>>>>>>   algorithm is
> >>>>>>>>         supported
> >>>>>>>>>    by both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agents.  In
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     this case either
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be included in addition to
> >>>>>>>>         USERNAME.  The HMAC
> >>>>>>>>>    for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This text appears to conflict with
> >>>>>>>   S 7.3 of
> >>>>>>>>>    5245-bis, which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> says:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [text missing]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still
> >>> referencing
> >>>>>>>>         RFC5389, so the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> procedure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stunbis does not apply.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying, but
> >>>>>>>   publishing two
> >>>>>>>>>    documents at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make contrary recommendations about
> >>>>>>>   the same
> >>>>>>>>         basic
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have
> >>>>>>>>         rfc5245bis
> >>>>>>>>>    using stunbis
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and have them updating their text,
> >>>>>>>   more than
> >>>>>>>>         adding some
> >>>>>>>>>    tortuous
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    text in stunbis?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The STUN usage must specify
> >>> which
> >>>>>>>>         transport
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the agent determines the IP
> >>>>>>>   address
> >>>>>>>>         and port
> >>>>>>>>>    of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Section 8 describes a DNS-based
> >>>>>>>>         method of
> >>>>>>>>>    determining
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and port of a server that a
> >>>>>>>   usage
> >>>>>>>>         may elect to
> >>>>>>>>>    use.
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with anycast addresses, but
> >>> only
> >>>>>>>>         with UDP and
> >>>>>>>>>    in usages
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     authentication is not used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why this restriction? You should
> >>>>>>>   be able
> >>>>>>>>         to use
> >>>>>>>>>    anycast with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-term
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>          <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that the decision of
> >>>>>>>   permitting Anycast
> >>>>>>>>>    should be left
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does
> >>>>>>>   not use
> >>>>>>>>>    authentication and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one round trip for the Binding
> >>>>>>>   transaction, so
> >>>>>>>>>    Unicast can be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say
> >>>>>>>>         something
> >>>>>>>>>    about that,
> >>>>>>>>>>> so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new bullet point in Section 13:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   o  If Anycast addresses can be
> >>>>>>>   used for
> >>>>>>>>         the server
> >>>>>>>>>    in case
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      TLS-over-TCP, or
> >>>>>>>   authentication are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you leaving this text in? That
> >>> seems
> >>>>>>>>         very confusing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    In isolation yes, but I think it makes
> >>>>>>>   sense
> >>>>>>>>         which the text
> >>>>>>>>>>> before
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    the bullet points:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A STUN usage defines how STUN is
> >>>>>>>   actually
> >>>>>>>>         utilized --
> >>>>>>>>>    when to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> send
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       requests, what to do with the
> >>>>>>>   responses,
> >>>>>>>>         and which
> >>>>>>>>>    optional
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       procedures defined here (or in an
> >>>>>>>   extension
> >>>>>>>>         to STUN)
> >>>>>>>>>    are to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A usage also defines:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       o  If Anycast addresses can be used
> >>>>>>>   for the
> >>>>>>>>         server in
> >>>>>>>>>    case TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          TLS-over-TCP, or authentication
> >>>>>>>   are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is the need for the restriction at all
>
>
>

--0000000000008e8fc905849f5140
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Spencer, why don&#39;t; you override it and then I can tak=
e a final look<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:22 AM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalg=
uei) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gsalguei@cisco.com">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hi Eric -=C2=A0
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m attaching the -21 that will be published once the I-D subm=
ission tool opens up (or Spencer can override and it published before then)=
.=C2=A0 It uses your proposed bid down protection disclaimer text (save for=
 minor nits I cleaned up). =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If this looks good then from my perspective we are done and your DISCU=
SS can be cleared and we can proceed with publication.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for all your help.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gonzalo</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:57 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_6204957028325099925x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Gonzalo,<br>
<br>
This text still seems to me to need some work. Here is a revised version.<b=
r>
<br>
SHA-256 was chosen as the new default for password=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
hashing for its compability with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
MD5) is a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter<br>
brute force attacks. Specifically, this means that if the<br>
user has a weak password:<br>
<br>
* An attacker who captures the server&#39;s password file can often<br>
=C2=A0 determine the user&#39;s password and thus impersonate the user<br>
=C2=A0 to other servers where they have used that password. Note that<br>
=C2=A0 such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself<br>
=C2=A0 without any brute force attack.<br>
<br>
* An attacker who captures a single exchange can brute force<br>
=C2=A0 the user&#39;s password and thus potentially impersonate the<br>
=C2=A0 user to the server and other servers where they have used<br>
=C2=A0 the same pasword.<br>
=C2=A0 <br>
A stronger (which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2<br>
[I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], would help both of these cases, but in the<br>
case of the first attack, only after until the database entry for this<br>
user is updated to exclusively use that stronger mechanism.<br>
<br>
The bid-down defenses in this protocol prevent an attacker from<br>
forcing the client and server to complete a handshake using weaker<br>
algorithms than they jointly support, but only if the weakest joint<br>
algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-forced. However,<br>
this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithms;<br>
specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on a<br>
client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing<br>
and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses<br>
for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the<br>
server receives the second request, but that does not prevent the<br>
attacker from obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.<br>
<br>
Similarly, an attack against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed<br>
in establishing a session as the server will detect that the feature<br>
was discarded on-path, but the client would still have been convinced<br>
to send its username in clear in the USERNAME attribute, thus<br>
disclosing it to the attacker.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_6204957028325099925x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_6204957028325099925x_gmail_attr">On Mon, =
Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gsalguei@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail-m_6204957028325099925x_gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
Thanks, Spencer.=C2=A0 In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emai=
led Eric to review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCU=
SS points. Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Gonzalo <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Dear All,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for the call yesterday.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before=
 next<br>
&gt; Wednesday, I&#39;m happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears =
his<br>
&gt; Discuss.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If I can help in any way, please let me know.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for pa=
ssword<br>
&gt;&gt; hashing:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet =
modern<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive passwo=
rd search<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg=
-argon2/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/</a>] are<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here&#39;s a stylized ve=
rsion<br>
&gt;&gt; of the protocol:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt; HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;- HMAC-H1(H2(Passwo=
rd), ...)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashi=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; function respectively.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacke=
r to<br>
&gt;&gt; complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, i=
f<br>
&gt;&gt; the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still stron=
g,<br>
&gt;&gt; then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. T=
his<br>
&gt;&gt; property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly supp=
ort<br>
&gt;&gt; one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they sup=
port<br>
&gt;&gt; SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follow=
s.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Attacker=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- No=
nce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce=
, Alg=3DZ<br>
&gt;&gt; Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is<br>
&gt;&gt; authenticating the transaction, and if you can&#39;t trust it to d=
o that,<br>
&gt;&gt; you can&#39;t trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either=
.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful t=
o<br>
&gt;&gt; have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don&#39=
;t think<br>
&gt;&gt; that that&#39;s true either. First, remember that the purpose of H=
2 is to<br>
&gt;&gt; prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learni=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; the user&#39;s true password. This is not about defending the serv=
er from<br>
&gt;&gt; attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but abo=
ut<br>
&gt;&gt; preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have =
been<br>
&gt;&gt; reused on another site.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, it&#39;s also possible to brute-force the user&#39;s password=
 just from<br>
&gt;&gt; the protocol transcript: if you capture the client&#39;s first mes=
sage<br>
&gt;&gt; with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just k=
eep<br>
&gt;&gt; trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a<=
br>
&gt;&gt; passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 =
are<br>
&gt;&gt; fast.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA=
-256)<br>
&gt;&gt; and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a=
<br>
&gt;&gt; bid-down defense in which it modifies the server&#39;s first messa=
ge to<br>
&gt;&gt; just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication<br>
&gt;&gt; transaction from completing, but that&#39;s not necessary for this=
<br>
&gt;&gt; attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from=
<br>
&gt;&gt; the message it has. To make this work, you would need something<br=
>
&gt;&gt; like a PAKE, which this is not.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one<br=
>
&gt;&gt; which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually<=
br>
&gt;&gt; phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticat=
es<br>
&gt;&gt; with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort<=
br>
&gt;&gt; of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be<br>
&gt;&gt; active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about<=
br>
&gt;&gt; the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just<br>
&gt;&gt; get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; not very useful defense.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defe=
nse<br>
&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t useful except in the formal &quot;attacker cannot influe=
nce<br>
&gt;&gt; negotiation&quot; sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting =
this done, I<br>
&gt;&gt; guess<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m willing to let this go if the security considerations make=
 clear<br>
&gt;&gt; that it is only a very limited mechanism.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately<=
br>
&gt;&gt; evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic=
<br>
&gt;&gt; strength is not important for this question. For instance, you<br>
&gt;&gt; could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a<br>
&gt;&gt; secure protocol.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward on=
ce you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; have the call.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo -<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc =
and myself on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.=C2=A0 Will=
 update with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resolutions once this has occurred.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo S,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the status of this one?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) w=
rote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Totally agree, Ekr.=C2=A0 Marc and I are meeting t=
o come up with a proposal<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; but I do agree we need to have a call to get this =
put to bed once and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for all.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential =
dates in the next 2-3 weeks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We really need to bring this to a close before=
 both Spencer and I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; step<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down, I should think.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camari=
llo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericss=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo=
@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric, Spencer, thanks for the stat=
us update!<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors, could you please let us k=
now when you plan to get to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; this?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Da=
wkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Gonzalo,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Resco=
rla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not really. I have not =
received any response to my mail of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Oct 23.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As before, I&#39;m happ=
y to have a call, but I believe we&#39;re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reaching<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the limits of what can =
be accomplished by email.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric would know best (it being his Discuss=
), but this is also my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understanding.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I can add this to the agenda of the IESG i=
nformal telechat on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0November<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 29, if there hasn&#39;t been a call before=
 then, but I don&#39;t have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reason<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to wait until then, if it&#39;s possible t=
o talk sooner.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at=
 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
onzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson=
.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@e=
ricsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Spence=
r,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what is t=
he status of this? Are the authors and the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0shepherd<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working w=
ith the relevant ADs on the discusses?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-st=
un-pmtud/ballot/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 24=
-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc P=
etit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@=
acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I sent my answers to Eric=
 Rescorla questions on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A02018-10-07<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 an in-person meeting with=
 my co-author, but never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0got a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0response<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 back.=C2=A0 Because there=
 was no change proposed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric I went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ahead and=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 published -19 a couple of=
 weeks after that, with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agreed in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 response to Adam&#39;s an=
d Benjamin&#39;s comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/=
msg02635.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ah - I wonder if that was what had hap=
pened.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It sounds like you did the right thing=
, and that Eric<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0has now<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responded=
,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which is also the right thing to do.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for helping me understand.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, =
Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I see that a -19 has been submitte=
d, but didn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0see a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reply fro=
m<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this thread. Do you think that you=
&#39;ve converged?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (I saw an offer of a conference ca=
ll, so thought an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out-of-ba=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; conversation might have happened)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Mar=
c Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please see inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Er=
ic Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:3=
1 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Apologies for the dela=
y in getting back to that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think that there is =
some misunderstanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0STUNbis i=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; do, so please see my c=
omments inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 06/18/2018 10:4=
3 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed =
the new version, but I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that the =
biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion makes m=
uch sense.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To recap, there ar=
e two hashes here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash which y=
ou use to store the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(currentl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mostly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash you use=
 to compute the MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(currently SHA-1).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; First, let&#39;s s=
tipulate that MD5 isn&#39;t a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t a great =
choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either for pwd has=
hing You want Argon or the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0With that=
 said,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; no sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown attack on =
that hash because it&#39;s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0per-serve=
r feature,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per-transaction<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature. So, as lo=
ng as the server has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MD5-hashed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
, the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; situation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is bad.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In no place in STUNbis=
 we are proposing to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0use SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for passw=
ord<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption, so I am no=
t sure where that come<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0from.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What we<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose is:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, it&#39;s=
 SHA-256, but my criticisms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equally t=
here.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SHA-256 was what the WG adopte=
d.=C2=A0 Our attempts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other pas=
swords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption mechanisms were den=
ied.=C2=A0 It is true<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Argon2 wa=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; list (in our defense Argon2 wa=
s not known<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0before July<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02015), bu=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I do not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see why the WG would have acce=
pted that one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyway it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; too late to fix this, as it is=
 my understanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG do=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; enough energy to reach consens=
us on a new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Someone can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; just write a draft adding Argo=
n2 as password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encryptio=
n, as we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IANA registry for that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Establish a registry=
 for new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(section<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 18.5), so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; algorithms like Argon2=
 could be added later<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(but note<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that our =
own<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proposals to add more =
password algorithms were<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rejected =
by the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 working<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add a new password a=
lgorithm to that registry,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0namely SH=
A-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Register MD5 as an i=
nitial password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0backward<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purpose.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the biddown pro=
tection itself, it is my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0recollect=
ion that it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happened more or less =
like that:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. MEETING ROOM - DA=
Y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One of the co-editors =
of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0microphon=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added SHA-256 protection for<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in STUNBis.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0SOMEONE (V.O.)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As MD5 still need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supported,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you need =
to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protection for bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR =
ROLLING HIS EYES<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OK, I&#39;ll work on that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Four to eight months h=
as passed.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. ANOTHER MEETING R=
OOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The same co-editor of =
STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added a nice mechanism to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0prevent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacks on passwords.=C2=A0 Any<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0comments?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0THE ROOM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(silence)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Moving on...<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see how any of=
 this is relevant to my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0technical=
 points<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My point was that we, the co-e=
ditors, did not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0decide on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection, someone asked us t=
o do so and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no-one in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG saw<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any problem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with that.=C2=A0 The reasons t=
hat person wanted that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0known to<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 us but, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you insist, here&#39;s one rea=
son I can think of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is a fact that, for operati=
onal reasons, a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0database<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cannot be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; re-encrypted at once.=C2=A0 Al=
so for operational<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MD5 p=
assword<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cannot be immediately removed =
from the database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as soon<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the user<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 submitted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a new one.=C2=A0 In fact, and =
for quite some time, both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encrypted=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 variants of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the same password may have to =
be kept in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0database,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; user may use a mix of devices,=
 some of them<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that use an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 client,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some that use a STUNbis client=
.=C2=A0 It is up to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server ow=
ner to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; decide how long the migration =
to STUNbis will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0take and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when it<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; acceptable to reject all RFC 5=
389 (i.e. MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients (that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 migration time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be purposely reduced to 0 =
seconds but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that&#39;s the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0choice an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; responsibility of the owner of=
 the server).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Meanwhile we still need to be =
sure that if the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client is=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis it unconditionally get=
s the additional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protectio=
n of the new<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password encryption algorithm.=
=C2=A0 That&#39;s where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection kicks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in, by preventing an online at=
tacker to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 misidentifying a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 =
client, by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0preventing an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0online<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacker to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have the client misidentifying=
 a STUNbis server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; having both them use the MD5 e=
ncrypted password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0instead<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SHA-256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encrypted password, all of tha=
t easily done by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 unprotected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 401 response of the new STUNbi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second topic i=
s the hash used to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC. Howe=
ver,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this gives you sen=
sible biddown protection<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that hash=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC over the negot=
iation: an attacker who has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compromis=
ed a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supports will quit=
e likely be able to forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transcript<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well. This is,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose, potenti=
ally useful as a defense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0some othe=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 weakness<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; version #), but I =
don&#39;t really see how the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0current<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 helps against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no biddown at=
tack protection for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stated in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16.3:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The bid-down pro=
tection mechanism described<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is new,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and thus cannot curren=
tly protect against a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attack th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lowers the strength of=
 the hash algorithm to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0HMAC-SHA1.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What we put in place i=
s a plan for *future*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0versions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of STUN t=
o get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown protection for=
 the MAC.=C2=A0 That&#39;s it,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no more,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0no less.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, but I don&#39;t belie=
ve that this will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0provide bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC in the future for the =
reasons I indicate<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If you think this does som=
ething useful,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0please show me an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 example attack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and how this fixes it. Not=
e that it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0generally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 just bid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the MAC itself unless the =
MAC you bid down to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0is weak<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enough to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some other way.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I do not know what weaknesses =
will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0discovered in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0future.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I am also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pretty sure that the cost of n=
ot using that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is very<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 close to 0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What I am sure of is that the =
cost of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reengineering a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0new biddo=
wn<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection mechanism if we eve=
r need it will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0high.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We alread=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; through the pains of designing=
 one for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 why not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; extend it so it can be used in=
 the aftermath of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0next Snow=
den<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 facepalm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; moment?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, happy to have a cal=
l to walk though<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0this if that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; helps.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You might think th=
at there was a MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0was easier to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reverse to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; find<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the original<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password, but the =
defense you have here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t help<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with that=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on-path attacker c=
an do a bid-down and use the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client as=
 a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 oracle<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any MAC the client=
 supports.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So, I still don&#3=
9;t understand what this is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to do. Ha=
ppy to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; call if you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; think that helps<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 18, 20=
18 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:=
Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">
Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@eri=
csson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Marc, Eric,<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the st=
atus of this discussion?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/05/2=
018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Ap=
r 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:peti=
thug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun=
, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For a request or indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0message,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at=
tributes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the message unless the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0knows fro=
m an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which message integrity<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supported=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agents.=C2=A0 =
In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this case either<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGR=
ITY-SHA256 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be included in addition to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME.=
=C2=A0 The HMAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; This text appears to conflict with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0S 7.3 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5245-bis, which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [t=
ext missing]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hm=
m, no, RFC245bis is still<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; referencing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC5389, =
so the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; st=
unbis does not apply.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I hear=
 what you&#39;re saying, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0publishing two<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; same time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; make c=
ontrary recommendations about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the same<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0basic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; un-good.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Sure, but wouldn&#39;t it be simpler to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rfc5245bi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 using stunbis<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 and have them updating their text,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0more than<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding so=
me<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tortuous<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 text in stunbis?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The STUN usage must specify<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ho=
w<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent determines the IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0address<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; recipient.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 8 describes a DNS-based<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 determining<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ad=
dress<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port of a server that a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0usage<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0may elect=
 to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; may be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; us=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with anycast addresses, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; only<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with UDP =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in usages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication is not used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Why this restriction? You should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0be able<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to use<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anycast with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; long-term<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; AUTH for (say) TURN.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/<=
/a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/curren=
t/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I =
think that the decision of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0permitting Anycast<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be left<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ST=
UN Usage.=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0not use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on=
e round trip for the Binding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unicast can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OT=
OH, TURN and ICE should probably say<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 about that,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; added a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ne=
w bullet point in Section 13:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0used for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in case<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Are yo=
u leaving this text in? That<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very conf=
using.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 In isolation yes, but I think it makes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0sense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which the=
 text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; before<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 the bullet points:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A STUN usage defines how STUN is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0actually<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0utilized =
--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requests, what to do with the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0responses,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and which=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures defined here (or in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to STUN)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A usage also defines:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 [...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or authentication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is th=
e need for the restriction at all<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000008e8fc905849f5140--


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To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
CC: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Simon Perreault <Simon.Perreault@logmein.com>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org>, "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>
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From: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
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Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:52:33 +0200
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Subject: Re: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Gonzalo S,

could you please give me a status update on this?

Thanks,

Gonzalo

On 19-Feb-19 20:13, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> Hi Gonzalo - 
> 
> We have made a decision on the PADDING but are still working through some of the comments raised in DISCUSS.  We hope to have this finished after finalizing STUN, which should be very close.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gonzalo
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Gonzalo S,
>>
>> what is the current status of this?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Gonzalo
>>
>> On 18-Jan-19 20:12, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
>>> Thanks, Spencer.  We will proceed with bringing the definition of
>>> PADDING into the current draft.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Gonzalo
>>>
>>>> On Jan 14, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>>>> <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 8:05 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
>>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    What is the next step here?
>>>>
>>>>    Gonzalo
>>>>
>>>>    On 13-Dec-18 16:27, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
>>>>> Hi, Simon, 
>>>>>  
>>>>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 7:12 AM Simon Perreault
>>>>> <Simon.Perreault@logmein.com
>>>>    <mailto:Simon.Perreault@logmein.com> <mailto:Simon.Perreault@logmein.com
>>>>    <mailto:Simon.Perreault@logmein.com>>> wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>      - Pull the definition of PADDING into this document. Declare
>>>>    that
>>>>>      we've gathered sufficient experience with PADDING that it now
>>>>>      warrants being elevated to Standards Track. That is, it's been
>>>>>      proven to work.____
>>>>>  
>>>>>      __ __
>>>>>  
>>>>>      This is plausible. It solves the first-order problem. ____
>>>>>  
>>>>>      __ __
>>>>>  
>>>>>      I note that RFC 5780 defined a number of new attributes. Is
>>>>    pulling
>>>>>      PADDING forward the right thing to do, or are there others that
>>>>>      would also qualify (so, perhaps a status change for RFC
>>>>    5780)? ____
>>>>>  
>>>>>      __ __
>>>>>  
>>>>>      I don’t think the others have been implemented much, so
>>>>    that’s why I
>>>>>      think only pulling PADDING makes sense. If I remember
>>>>    correctly, I
>>>>>      only implemented PADDING in Numb (I don’t have access to the
>>>>    source
>>>>>      code anymore so can’t be sure).____
>>>>>  
>>>>>      __ __
>>>>>  
>>>>>      Anyone else with an opinion?
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> That's helpful information. 
>>>>>  
>>>>> We should wait for anyone else with information to weigh in, but
>>>>    if it's
>>>>> correct that the other experimental attributes haven't been
>>>>    implemented
>>>>> and deployed in a way that would provide guidance for
>>>>    standards-track
>>>>> use, I think defining PADDING in this document makes more sense
>>>>    to me
>>>>> than adding a downref to an experimental RFC that we wouldn't
>>>>    consider
>>>>> if the reference was using anything except PADDING.  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No one has objected in the past month (which included holidays, but I
>>>> would have asked this question with a week or two timeout, if the
>>>> holidays had not been coming up). 
>>>>
>>>> I think bringing the definition of PADDING into the current draft is
>>>> the right thing to do. 
>>>>
>>>> If TRAM people thought that the other experimental attributes in RFC
>>>> 5780 don't have enough implementation experience to justify moving
>>>> them past Experimental status, changing the status of RFC 5780 to
>>>> Historic might be appropriate at some point, but that's not related to
>>>> the conversation we're having now, and I haven't asked a question
>>>> about that, so I'll ignore that for now.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help with this.
>>>>
>>>> Spencer
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>  
>>>>> Spencer
>>>>>  
>>>>>      ____
>>>>>  
>>>>>      __ __
>>>>>  
>>>>>      Simon____
>>>>>  
>>>>
>>>
> 


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 16:10:28 +0100
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To: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>,  "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>
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Dear IESG Secretary (bcc),

Please post this draft during the blackout period - we're trying to clear
The Last Discuss on a document in IESG Evaluation before I step down, so
want to give people time to look at the official -21 version rather than
clear based on e-mail.

Thanks!

Spencer, who is kind of hoping that someone on the next IESG asks why we
have a blackout posting period for drafts in IESG Evaluation - but I'm sure
you'll all do the right thing.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 7:22 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) <
gsalguei@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric -
>
> I=E2=80=99m attaching the -21 that will be published once the I-D submiss=
ion tool
> opens up (or Spencer can override and it published before then).  It uses
> your proposed bid down protection disclaimer text (save for minor nits I
> cleaned up).
>
> If this looks good then from my perspective we are done and your DISCUSS
> can be cleared and we can proceed with publication.
>
> Thanks for all your help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:57 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
> Gonzalo,
>
> This text still seems to me to need some work. Here is a revised version.
>
> SHA-256 was chosen as the new default for password
> hashing for its compability with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like
> MD5) is a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter
> brute force attacks. Specifically, this means that if the
> user has a weak password:
>
> * An attacker who captures the server's password file can often
>   determine the user's password and thus impersonate the user
>   to other servers where they have used that password. Note that
>   such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself
>   without any brute force attack.
>
> * An attacker who captures a single exchange can brute force
>   the user's password and thus potentially impersonate the
>   user to the server and other servers where they have used
>   the same pasword.
>
> A stronger (which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2
> [I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], would help both of these cases, but in the
> case of the first attack, only after until the database entry for this
> user is updated to exclusively use that stronger mechanism.
>
> The bid-down defenses in this protocol prevent an attacker from
> forcing the client and server to complete a handshake using weaker
> algorithms than they jointly support, but only if the weakest joint
> algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-forced. However,
> this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithms;
> specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on a
> client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing
> and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses
> for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the
> server receives the second request, but that does not prevent the
> attacker from obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.
>
> Similarly, an attack against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed
> in establishing a session as the server will detect that the feature
> was discarded on-path, but the client would still have been convinced
> to send its username in clear in the USERNAME attribute, thus
> disclosing it to the attacker.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) <
> gsalguei@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Spencer.  In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emailed=
 Eric to
> review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCUSS points.
> Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gonzalo
>
>
>
> > On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> >> On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for the call yesterday.
> >>
> >
> > Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.
> >
> > If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before
> next
> > Wednesday, I'm happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears his
> > Discuss.
> >
> > If I can help in any way, please let me know.
> >
> > Spencer
> >
> >
> >>
> >> First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for passwo=
rd
> >> hashing:
> >>
> >>  Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet modern
> >>  standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive password search
> >>  by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the
> >>  hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2
> >>  [https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/] are
> >>  available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here's a stylized version
> >> of the protocol:
> >>
> >> Client                                                  Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                                          <- Nonce, Algorithms
> >> HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) ->
> >>                                 <- HMAC-H1(H2(Password), ...)
> >>
> >> Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashing
> >> function respectively.
> >>
> >> Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and that
> >> both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacker to
> >> complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, if
> >> the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still strong,
> >> then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. This
> >> property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.
> >>
> >> However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.
> >>
> >> First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly support
> >> one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they support
> >> SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows
> >> an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follows.
> >>
> >>
> >> Client                      Attacker                   Server
> >>
> >> Hello ->
> >>                            Hello ->
> >>                                      <- Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z
> >>                <- Nonce, Alg=3DZ
> >> Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) ->
> >>                        Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))
> >>
> >> The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is
> >> authenticating the transaction, and if you can't trust it to do that,
> >> you can't trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either.
> >>
> >>
> >> During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful to
> >> have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don't think
> >> that that's true either. First, remember that the purpose of H2 is to
> >> prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learning
> >> the user's true password. This is not about defending the server from
> >> attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but about
> >> preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have been
> >> reused on another site.
> >>
> >> Now, it's also possible to brute-force the user's password just from
> >> the protocol transcript: if you capture the client's first message
> >> with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just keep
> >> trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a
> >> passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 are
> >> fast.
> >>
> >> A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the
> >> problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA-256=
)
> >> and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a
> >> bid-down defense in which it modifies the server's first message to
> >> just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable
> >> message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication
> >> transaction from completing, but that's not necessary for this
> >> attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from
> >> the message it has. To make this work, you would need something
> >> like a PAKE, which this is not.
> >>
> >> Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one
> >> which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually
> >> phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticates
> >> with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort
> >> of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be
> >> active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about
> >> the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just
> >> get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a
> >> not very useful defense.
> >>
> >> I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defense
> >> isn't useful except in the formal "attacker cannot influence
> >> negotiation" sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting this done=
,
> I
> >> guess
> >> I'm willing to let this go if the security considerations make clear
> >> that it is only a very limited mechanism.
> >>
> >> -Ekr
> >>
> >>
> >> [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately
> >> evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic
> >> strength is not important for this question. For instance, you
> >> could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a
> >> secure protocol.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >> gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward once you
> >>> have the call.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>> Gonzalo
> >>>
> >>>> On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>> Hi Gonzalo -
> >>>>
> >>>> We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc and myself
> on
> >>> March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.  Will update with
> >>> resolutions once this has occurred.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>>
> >>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo <
> >>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Gonzalo S,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> what is the status of this one?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:
> >>>>>> Totally agree, Ekr.  Marc and I are meeting to come up with a
> proposal
> >>>>>> but I do agree we need to have a call to get this put to bed once
> and
> >>>>>> for all.  We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential dates in the next 2-3=
 weeks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We really need to bring this to a close before both Spencer and I
> >>> step
> >>>>>>> down, I should think.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>> <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>> <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Eric, Spencer, thanks for the status update!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Authors, could you please let us know when you plan to get to
> >>> this?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>   Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>   On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hi, Gonzalo,
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>
> >>>>>>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     Not really. I have not received any response to my mail of
> >>>>>>>   Oct 23.
> >>>>>>>>     As before, I'm happy to have a call, but I believe we're
> >>>>>>>   reaching
> >>>>>>>>     the limits of what can be accomplished by email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Eric would know best (it being his Discuss), but this is also my
> >>>>>>>> understanding.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I can add this to the agenda of the IESG informal telechat on
> >>>>>>>   November
> >>>>>>>> 29, if there hasn't been a call before then, but I don't have a
> >>>>>>>   reason
> >>>>>>>> to wait until then, if it's possible to talk sooner.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>     On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo
> >>>>>>>>     <gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>     <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         what is the status of this? Are the authors and the
> >>> document
> >>>>>>>>         shepherd
> >>>>>>>>         working with the relevant ADs on the discusses?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>         On 24-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>         <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    Hi Spencer,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    I sent my answers to Eric Rescorla questions on
> >>>>>>>   2018-10-07
> >>>>>>>>         following
> >>>>>>>>>    an in-person meeting with my co-author, but never
> >>>>>>>   got a
> >>>>>>>>         response
> >>>>>>>>>    back.  Because there was no change proposed by
> >>>>>>>   Eric I went
> >>>>>>>>         ahead and
> >>>>>>>>>    published -19 a couple of weeks after that, with
> >>>>>>>   the text
> >>>>>>>>         agreed in
> >>>>>>>>>    response to Adam's and Benjamin's comments.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ah - I wonder if that was what had happened.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> It sounds like you did the right thing, and that Eric
> >>>>>>>   has now
> >>>>>>>>         responded,
> >>>>>>>>> which is also the right thing to do.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for helping me understand.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>    On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi, Marc,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I see that a -19 has been submitted, but didn't
> >>>>>>>   see a
> >>>>>>>>         reply from
> >>>>>>>>>    Eric in
> >>>>>>>>>> this thread. Do you think that you've converged?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> (I saw an offer of a conference call, so thought an
> >>>>>>>>         out-of-band
> >>>>>>>>>> conversation might have happened)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Spencer
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Marc Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>   Petit-Huguenin
> >>>>>>>>>    <petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Apologies for the delay in getting back to that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that there is some misunderstanding
> >>>>>>>   in what
> >>>>>>>>         STUNbis is
> >>>>>>>>>    trying to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> do, so please see my comments inline.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2018 10:43 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've reviewed the new version, but I don't
> >>> think
> >>>>>>>>         that the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion makes much sense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To recap, there are two hashes here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash which you use to store the
> >>>>>>>   password with
> >>>>>>>>         (currently
> >>>>>>>>>    mostly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> MD5)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The hash you use to compute the MAC
> >>>>>>>   (currently SHA-1).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, let's stipulate that MD5 isn't a
> >>>>>>>   great choice
> >>>>>>>>         here,
> >>>>>>>>>    though SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't a great choice
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either for pwd hashing You want Argon or the
> >>>>>>>   like.
> >>>>>>>>         With that said,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> there's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> no sensible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown attack on that hash because it's a
> >>>>>>>>         per-server feature,
> >>>>>>>>>    not a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> per-transaction
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feature. So, as long as the server has
> >>>>>>>   MD5-hashed
> >>>>>>>>         passwords, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is bad.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In no place in STUNbis we are proposing to
> >>>>>>>   use SHA-1
> >>>>>>>>         for password
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> encryption, so I am not sure where that come
> >>>>>>>   from.
> >>>>>>>>         What we
> >>>>>>>>>    propose is:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You're right, it's SHA-256, but my criticisms
> >>>>>>>   apply
> >>>>>>>>         equally there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> SHA-256 was what the WG adopted.  Our attempts
> >>>>>>>   to add
> >>>>>>>>         other passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>> encryption mechanisms were denied.  It is true
> >>> that
> >>>>>>>>         Argon2 was
> >>>>>>>>>    not in that
> >>>>>>>>>>> list (in our defense Argon2 was not known
> >>>>>>>   before July
> >>>>>>>>         2015), but
> >>>>>>>>>    I do not
> >>>>>>>>>>> see why the WG would have accepted that one
> >>>>>>>   over the
> >>>>>>>>         others.
> >>>>>>>>>    Anyway it is
> >>>>>>>>>>> too late to fix this, as it is my understanding
> >>>>>>>   that
> >>>>>>>>         the WG does
> >>>>>>>>>    not have
> >>>>>>>>>>> enough energy to reach consensus on a new password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm.
> >>>>>>>>>    Someone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> just write a draft adding Argon2 as password
> >>>>>>>>         encryption, as we
> >>>>>>>>>    will have a
> >>>>>>>>>>> IANA registry for that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Establish a registry for new password
> >>>>>>>   algorithms
> >>>>>>>>         (section
> >>>>>>>>>    18.5), so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> algorithms like Argon2 could be added later
> >>>>>>>   (but note
> >>>>>>>>         that our own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> proposals to add more password algorithms were
> >>>>>>>>         rejected by the
> >>>>>>>>>    working
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> group).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Add a new password algorithm to that registry,
> >>>>>>>>         namely SHA-256.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Register MD5 as an initial password
> >>>>>>>   algorithm for
> >>>>>>>>         backward
> >>>>>>>>>>> compatibility
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As for the biddown protection itself, it is my
> >>>>>>>>         recollection that it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> happened more or less like that:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the co-editors of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>>         microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added SHA-256 protection for
> >>>>>>>>         passwords
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 in STUNBis.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           SOMEONE (V.O.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 As MD5 still need to be
> >>>>>>>   supported,
> >>>>>>>>         you need to add
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 protection for bid-down
> >>> attacks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR ROLLING HIS EYES
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 OK, I'll work on that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Four to eight months has passed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> INT. ANOTHER MEETING ROOM - DAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The same co-editor of STUNBis stands at the
> >>>>>>>   microphone:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 We added a nice mechanism to
> >>>>>>>   prevent
> >>>>>>>>         bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 attacks on passwords.  Any
> >>>>>>>   comments?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           THE ROOM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 (silence)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                           CO-EDITOR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>                 Moving on...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see how any of this is relevant to my
> >>>>>>>>         technical points
> >>>>>>>>>    above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My point was that we, the co-editors, did not
> >>>>>>>   decide on
> >>>>>>>>         adding
> >>>>>>>>>    bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection, someone asked us to do so and
> >>>>>>>   no-one in the
> >>>>>>>>         WG saw
> >>>>>>>>>    any problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> with that.  The reasons that person wanted that
> >>>>>>>   are not
> >>>>>>>>         known to
> >>>>>>>>>    us but, as
> >>>>>>>>>>> you insist, here's one reason I can think of:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is a fact that, for operational reasons, a
> >>>>>>>   password
> >>>>>>>>         database
> >>>>>>>>>    cannot be
> >>>>>>>>>>> re-encrypted at once.  Also for operational
> >>>>>>>   reasons,
> >>>>>>>>         the MD5 password
> >>>>>>>>>>> cannot be immediately removed from the database
> >>>>>>>   as soon
> >>>>>>>>         the user
> >>>>>>>>>    submitted
> >>>>>>>>>>> a new one.  In fact, and for quite some time, both
> >>>>>>>>         encrypted
> >>>>>>>>>    variants of
> >>>>>>>>>>> the same password may have to be kept in that
> >>>>>>>   database,
> >>>>>>>>         because a
> >>>>>>>>>    single
> >>>>>>>>>>> user may use a mix of devices, some of them
> >>>>>>>   that use an
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    client,
> >>>>>>>>>>> some that use a STUNbis client.  It is up to
> >>>>>>>   the STUN
> >>>>>>>>         server owner to
> >>>>>>>>>>> decide how long the migration to STUNbis will
> >>>>>>>   take and
> >>>>>>>>         when it
> >>>>>>>>>    will be
> >>>>>>>>>>> acceptable to reject all RFC 5389 (i.e. MD5)
> >>>>>>>   clients (that
> >>>>>>>>>    migration time
> >>>>>>>>>>> can be purposely reduced to 0 seconds but
> >>>>>>>   that's the
> >>>>>>>>         choice and
> >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility of the owner of the server).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Meanwhile we still need to be sure that if the
> >>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>         client is
> >>>>>>>>>    implementing
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis it unconditionally gets the additional
> >>>>>>>>         protection of the new
> >>>>>>>>>>> password encryption algorithm.  That's where
> >>>>>>>   the biddown
> >>>>>>>>>    protection kicks
> >>>>>>>>>>> in, by preventing an online attacker to have
> >>>>>>>   the server
> >>>>>>>>>    misidentifying a
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 client, by
> >>>>>>>   preventing an
> >>>>>>>>         online
> >>>>>>>>>    attacker to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have the client misidentifying a STUNbis server
> >>>>>>>   as a
> >>>>>>>>         RFC 5389
> >>>>>>>>>    server, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> having both them use the MD5 encrypted password
> >>>>>>>   instead
> >>>>>>>>         of the
> >>>>>>>>>    SHA-256
> >>>>>>>>>>> encrypted password, all of that easily done by
> >>>>>>>>         stripping the
> >>>>>>>>>    unprotected
> >>>>>>>>>>> 401 response of the new STUNbis
> >>> PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS
> >>>>>>>>         attribute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second topic is the hash used to compute
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         MAC. However,
> >>>>>>>>>    I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> see
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this gives you sensible biddown protection
> >>>>>>>   because
> >>>>>>>>         that hash
> >>>>>>>>>    is also
> >>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to compute
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC over the negotiation: an attacker who has
> >>>>>>>>         compromised a
> >>>>>>>>>    MAC which
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> server
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> supports will quite likely be able to forge
> >>>>>>>   a MAC
> >>>>>>>>         over the
> >>>>>>>>>    transcript
> >>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> well. This is,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose, potentially useful as a defense
> >>>>>>>   against
> >>>>>>>>         some other
> >>>>>>>>>    weakness
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (e.g.,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version #), but I don't really see how the
> >>>>>>>   current
> >>>>>>>>         design
> >>>>>>>>>    helps against
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacks on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no biddown attack protection for the
> >>>>>>>   MAC, as
> >>>>>>>>         stated in
> >>>>>>>>>    Section
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 16.3:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The bid-down protection mechanism described
> >>>>>>>   in this
> >>>>>>>>         document
> >>>>>>>>>    is new,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and thus cannot currently protect against a
> >>>>>>>   bid-down
> >>>>>>>>         attack that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> lowers the strength of the hash algorithm to
> >>>>>>>   HMAC-SHA1."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What we put in place is a plan for *future*
> >>>>>>>   versions
> >>>>>>>>         of STUN to get
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> biddown protection for the MAC.  That's it,
> >>>>>>>   no more,
> >>>>>>>>         no less.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but I don't believe that this will
> >>>>>>>   provide bid-down
> >>>>>>>>>    protection for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> MAC in the future for the reasons I indicate
> >>>>>>>   above.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you think this does something useful,
> >>>>>>>   please show me an
> >>>>>>>>>    example attack
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and how this fixes it. Note that it's not
> >>>>>>>   generally
> >>>>>>>>         useful to
> >>>>>>>>>    just bid
> >>>>>>>>>>> down
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the MAC itself unless the MAC you bid down to
> >>>>>>>   is weak
> >>>>>>>>         enough to
> >>>>>>>>>    exploit
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> some other way.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I do not know what weaknesses will be
> >>>>>>>   discovered in the
> >>>>>>>>         future.
> >>>>>>>>>    I am also
> >>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure that the cost of not using that
> >>>>>>>   mechanism
> >>>>>>>>         is very
> >>>>>>>>>    close to 0.
> >>>>>>>>>>> What I am sure of is that the cost of
> >>>>>>>   reengineering a
> >>>>>>>>         new biddown
> >>>>>>>>>>> protection mechanism if we ever need it will be
> >>>>>>>   high.
> >>>>>>>>         We already
> >>>>>>>>>    went
> >>>>>>>>>>> through the pains of designing one for the
> >>> password
> >>>>>>>>         algorithm, so
> >>>>>>>>>    why not
> >>>>>>>>>>> extend it so it can be used in the aftermath of
> >>> the
> >>>>>>>>         next Snowden
> >>>>>>>>>    facepalm
> >>>>>>>>>>> moment?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, happy to have a call to walk though
> >>>>>>>   this if that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> helps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You might think that there was a MAC which
> >>>>>>>   was easier to
> >>>>>>>>>    reverse to
> >>>>>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the original
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> password, but the defense you have here
> >>>>>>>   doesn't help
> >>>>>>>>         with that
> >>>>>>>>>    because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> on-path attacker can do a bid-down and use the
> >>>>>>>>         client as a MAC
> >>>>>>>>>    oracle
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any MAC the client supports.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, I still don't understand what this is
> >>>>>>>   supposed
> >>>>>>>>         to do. Happy to
> >>>>>>>>>>> have a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> call if you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that helps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Ekr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>   Camarillo <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marc, Eric,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is the status of this discussion?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gonzalo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 04/05/2018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org> <mailto:petithug@acm.org
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla
> >>>>>>>   wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc
> >>>>>>>>         Petit-Huguenin <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>
> >>>>>>>>>    <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>
> >>>>>>>>         <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>
> >>>>>>>   <mailto:petithug@acm.org <mailto:petithug@acm.org>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     For a request or indication
> >>>>>>>   message,
> >>>>>>>>         the agent
> >>>>>>>>>    MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> include the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     USERNAME,
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attributes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     in the message unless the agent
> >>>>>>>>         knows from an
> >>>>>>>>>    external
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indication
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     which message integrity
> >>>>>>>   algorithm is
> >>>>>>>>         supported
> >>>>>>>>>    by both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> agents.  In
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     this case either
> >>>>>>>   MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 MUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     be included in addition to
> >>>>>>>>         USERNAME.  The HMAC
> >>>>>>>>>    for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MESSAGE-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This text appears to conflict with
> >>>>>>>   S 7.3 of
> >>>>>>>>>    5245-bis, which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> says:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [text missing]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, no, RFC245bis is still
> >>> referencing
> >>>>>>>>         RFC5389, so the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> procedure
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stunbis does not apply.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hear what you're saying, but
> >>>>>>>   publishing two
> >>>>>>>>>    documents at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make contrary recommendations about
> >>>>>>>   the same
> >>>>>>>>         basic
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> un-good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    Sure, but wouldn't it be simpler to have
> >>>>>>>>         rfc5245bis
> >>>>>>>>>    using stunbis
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    and have them updating their text,
> >>>>>>>   more than
> >>>>>>>>         adding some
> >>>>>>>>>    tortuous
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    text in stunbis?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     The STUN usage must specify
> >>> which
> >>>>>>>>         transport
> >>>>>>>>>    protocol is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     the agent determines the IP
> >>>>>>>   address
> >>>>>>>>         and port
> >>>>>>>>>    of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recipient.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     Section 8 describes a DNS-based
> >>>>>>>>         method of
> >>>>>>>>>    determining
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> address
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     and port of a server that a
> >>>>>>>   usage
> >>>>>>>>         may elect to
> >>>>>>>>>    use.
> >>>>>>>>>>> STUN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     with anycast addresses, but
> >>> only
> >>>>>>>>         with UDP and
> >>>>>>>>>    in usages
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>     authentication is not used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why this restriction? You should
> >>>>>>>   be able
> >>>>>>>>         to use
> >>>>>>>>>    anycast with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> long-term
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTH for (say) TURN.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>         https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>          <https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> msg03582.html>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that the decision of
> >>>>>>>   permitting Anycast
> >>>>>>>>>    should be left
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> STUN Usage.  Basic STUN Usage does
> >>>>>>>   not use
> >>>>>>>>>    authentication and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one round trip for the Binding
> >>>>>>>   transaction, so
> >>>>>>>>>    Unicast can be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH, TURN and ICE should probably say
> >>>>>>>>         something
> >>>>>>>>>    about that,
> >>>>>>>>>>> so
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> added a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new bullet point in Section 13:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   o  If Anycast addresses can be
> >>>>>>>   used for
> >>>>>>>>         the server
> >>>>>>>>>    in case
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>      TLS-over-TCP, or
> >>>>>>>   authentication are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you leaving this text in? That
> >>> seems
> >>>>>>>>         very confusing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    In isolation yes, but I think it makes
> >>>>>>>   sense
> >>>>>>>>         which the text
> >>>>>>>>>>> before
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    the bullet points:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A STUN usage defines how STUN is
> >>>>>>>   actually
> >>>>>>>>         utilized --
> >>>>>>>>>    when to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> send
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       requests, what to do with the
> >>>>>>>   responses,
> >>>>>>>>         and which
> >>>>>>>>>    optional
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       procedures defined here (or in an
> >>>>>>>   extension
> >>>>>>>>         to STUN)
> >>>>>>>>>    are to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       A usage also defines:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    [...]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>       o  If Anycast addresses can be used
> >>>>>>>   for the
> >>>>>>>>         server in
> >>>>>>>>>    case TCP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          TLS-over-TCP, or authentication
> >>>>>>>   are used.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is the need for the restriction at all
>
>
>

--0000000000000a2e0f0584b04252
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear IESG Secretary (bcc),=C2=A0<div><br>=
</div><div>Please post this draft during the blackout period - we&#39;re tr=
ying to clear The Last Discuss on a document in IESG Evaluation before I st=
ep down, so want to give people time to look at the official -21 version ra=
ther than clear based on e-mail.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Spencer, who is kind of hoping that someone on the ne=
xt IESG asks why we have a blackout posting period for drafts in IESG Evalu=
ation - but I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll all do the right thing.</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Ma=
r 21, 2019 at 7:22 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gs=
alguei@cisco.com">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hi Eric -=C2=A0
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m attaching the -21 that will be published once the I-D subm=
ission tool opens up (or Spencer can override and it published before then)=
.=C2=A0 It uses your proposed bid down protection disclaimer text (save for=
 minor nits I cleaned up). =C2=A0</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If this looks good then from my perspective we are done and your DISCU=
SS can be cleared and we can proceed with publication.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for all your help.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Gonzalo</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Mar 20, 2019, at 3:57 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_1295393733669063460x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>

<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Gonzalo,<br>
<br>
This text still seems to me to need some work. Here is a revised version.<b=
r>
<br>
SHA-256 was chosen as the new default for password=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
hashing for its compability with RFC 7616 but because SHA-256 (like=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
MD5) is a comparatively fast algorithm, it does little to deter<br>
brute force attacks. Specifically, this means that if the<br>
user has a weak password:<br>
<br>
* An attacker who captures the server&#39;s password file can often<br>
=C2=A0 determine the user&#39;s password and thus impersonate the user<br>
=C2=A0 to other servers where they have used that password. Note that<br>
=C2=A0 such an attacker can impersonate the user to the server itself<br>
=C2=A0 without any brute force attack.<br>
<br>
* An attacker who captures a single exchange can brute force<br>
=C2=A0 the user&#39;s password and thus potentially impersonate the<br>
=C2=A0 user to the server and other servers where they have used<br>
=C2=A0 the same pasword.<br>
=C2=A0 <br>
A stronger (which is to say slower) algorithm, like Argon2<br>
[I-D.irtf-cfrg-argon2], would help both of these cases, but in the<br>
case of the first attack, only after until the database entry for this<br>
user is updated to exclusively use that stronger mechanism.<br>
<br>
The bid-down defenses in this protocol prevent an attacker from<br>
forcing the client and server to complete a handshake using weaker<br>
algorithms than they jointly support, but only if the weakest joint<br>
algorithm is strong enough that it cannot be brute-forced. However,<br>
this does not defend against many attacks on those algorithms;<br>
specifically, an on-path attacker might perform a bid-down attack on a<br>
client which supported both Argon2 and SHA-256 for password hashing<br>
and use that to collect a MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value which it uses<br>
for an offline brute-force attack. This would be detected when the<br>
server receives the second request, but that does not prevent the<br>
attacker from obtaining the MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 value.<br>
<br>
Similarly, an attack against the USERHASH mechanism will not succeed<br>
in establishing a session as the server will detect that the feature<br>
was discarded on-path, but the client would still have been convinced<br>
to send its username in clear in the USERNAME attribute, thus<br>
disclosing it to the attacker.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail-m_1295393733669063460x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_1295393733669063460x_gmail_attr">On Mon, =
Mar 18, 2019 at 6:37 PM Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gsalguei@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail-m_1295393733669063460x_gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
Thanks, Spencer.=C2=A0 In the interest of expeditiousness I=E2=80=99ve emai=
led Eric to review the newly published -20 to ensure it addresses his DISCU=
SS points. Hoping to get this done before Eric steps down as AD.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Gonzalo <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On Mar 18, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Dear All,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Fri, Mar 8, 2019 at 8:10 PM Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for the call yesterday.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks to all for moving this specification forward.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If the current conversation turns out to converge on this topic before=
 next<br>
&gt; Wednesday, I&#39;m happy to approve a revised draft after Eric clears =
his<br>
&gt; Discuss.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; If I can help in any way, please let me know.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, here is what I recommend for the question of SHA-256 for pa=
ssword<br>
&gt;&gt; hashing:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 Note: the use of SHA-256 for password hashing does not meet =
modern<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 standards, which are aimed at slowing down exhaustive passwo=
rd search<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 by providing a relatively slow minimum time to compute the<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 hash. Although better algorithms such as Argon2<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 [<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg=
-argon2/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-argon2/</a>] are<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 available, SHA-256 was chosen for consistency with RFC 7616.=
<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, WRT to the anti-downgrade situation. Here&#39;s a stylized ve=
rsion<br>
&gt;&gt; of the protocol:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce, Algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt; HMAC-H1(H2(Password), Nonce, Algorithms, Msg) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;- HMAC-H1(H2(Passwo=
rd), ...)<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Where H1 and H2 are the HMAC hash functions and the password hashi=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; function respectively.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, if we assume that the attacker does not know Password and tha=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; both H1 and H2 are secure, then it is not possible for the attacke=
r to<br>
&gt;&gt; complete the transaction or modify any of the messages. Further, i=
f<br>
&gt;&gt; the weakest joint algorithm that both sides support is still stron=
g,<br>
&gt;&gt; then an attacker cannot influence the algorithm negotiation [0]. T=
his<br>
&gt;&gt; property is provided by covering the algorithms under the MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; However, my point is that this is not a very useful property.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; First, consider the case in which the implementations jointly supp=
ort<br>
&gt;&gt; one strong algorithm and one weak algorithm. E.g., for H1 they sup=
port<br>
&gt;&gt; SHA-256 and the function Z(x) which always emits 0s. This allows<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; an attacker to force the client and server into using Z, as follow=
s.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Attacker=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hello -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- No=
nce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;- Nonce=
, Alg=3DZ<br>
&gt;&gt; Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DZ)) -&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Z(H2(Password), Nonce, Alg=3DSHA256, Z))<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; The issue here is that the only thing that the MAC is doing is<br>
&gt;&gt; authenticating the transaction, and if you can&#39;t trust it to d=
o that,<br>
&gt;&gt; you can&#39;t trust it to authenticate the bid-down defense either=
.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; During our discussion, there was a suggestion that it was useful t=
o<br>
&gt;&gt; have biddown defense to defend against weaknesses in H2. I don&#39=
;t think<br>
&gt;&gt; that that&#39;s true either. First, remember that the purpose of H=
2 is to<br>
&gt;&gt; prevent an attacker who recovers the password database from learni=
ng<br>
&gt;&gt; the user&#39;s true password. This is not about defending the serv=
er from<br>
&gt;&gt; attack (because knowing A1 is enough to attack the server) but abo=
ut<br>
&gt;&gt; preventing the attacker from learning a password which might have =
been<br>
&gt;&gt; reused on another site.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Now, it&#39;s also possible to brute-force the user&#39;s password=
 just from<br>
&gt;&gt; the protocol transcript: if you capture the client&#39;s first mes=
sage<br>
&gt;&gt; with MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, you can just k=
eep<br>
&gt;&gt; trying passwords until you get the right MAC. Note that this is a<=
br>
&gt;&gt; passive attack. This is comparatively fast because SHA256 and MD5 =
are<br>
&gt;&gt; fast.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; A much stronger H2 (e.g., Argon) would help against this, but the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; problem now becomes that the client supports H2 =3D=3D MD5 (or SHA=
-256)<br>
&gt;&gt; and so even if the server supports Argon, the attacker can mount a=
<br>
&gt;&gt; bid-down defense in which it modifies the server&#39;s first messa=
ge to<br>
&gt;&gt; just advertise MD5 and thus get the client to provide a suitable<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; message. The bid-down defense would prevent the authentication<br>
&gt;&gt; transaction from completing, but that&#39;s not necessary for this=
<br>
&gt;&gt; attack because the attacker can just brute-force the password from=
<br>
&gt;&gt; the message it has. To make this work, you would need something<br=
>
&gt;&gt; like a PAKE, which this is not.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Finally, you might think that the server has two databases, one<br=
>
&gt;&gt; which uses Argon and one which uses MD5 and it wants to gradually<=
br>
&gt;&gt; phase out the MD5 one, which it will do when no client authenticat=
es<br>
&gt;&gt; with MD5 for a very long time. An anti-biddown defense would sort<=
br>
&gt;&gt; of work here, but the fact that the attacker would have to be<br>
&gt;&gt; active essentially indefinitely to keep the server confused about<=
br>
&gt;&gt; the state of clients -- and that the attacker can likely just<br>
&gt;&gt; get a valid account and then insist on using MD5 -- makes this a<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; not very useful defense.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I think this makes a pretty persuasive case that the bid-down defe=
nse<br>
&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t useful except in the formal &quot;attacker cannot influe=
nce<br>
&gt;&gt; negotiation&quot; sense. With that said, in the spirit of getting =
this done, I<br>
&gt;&gt; guess<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m willing to let this go if the security considerations make=
 clear<br>
&gt;&gt; that it is only a very limited mechanism.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; [0] This is principally about H1. As long as the H2 approximately<=
br>
&gt;&gt; evenly distributes the password over its range, then cryptographic=
<br>
&gt;&gt; strength is not important for this question. For instance, you<br>
&gt;&gt; could replace H2 with an identity function and still have a<br>
&gt;&gt; secure protocol.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 20, 2019 at 4:03 AM Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank=
">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks, Gonzalo! Please, let us know the agreed way forward on=
ce you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; have the call.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 19-Feb-19 20:05, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) wrote:<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo -<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We have scheduled a conference call with Ekr, Simon, Marc =
and myself on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; March 7th to discuss the last two remaining issues.=C2=A0 Will=
 update with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; resolutions once this has occurred.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Gonzalo Camarillo &lt;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Gonzalo S,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the status of this one?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18-Jan-19 20:16, Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei) w=
rote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Totally agree, Ekr.=C2=A0 Marc and I are meeting t=
o come up with a proposal<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; but I do agree we need to have a call to get this =
put to bed once and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for all.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll offer some potential =
dates in the next 2-3 weeks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Dec 26, 2018, at 8:05 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We really need to bring this to a close before=
 both Spencer and I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; step<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down, I should think.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 4:30 AM Gonzalo Camari=
llo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericss=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonzalo.camarillo=
@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com</a>&gt;&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric, Spencer, thanks for the stat=
us update!<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors, could you please let us k=
now when you plan to get to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; this?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0On 19-Nov-18 23:04, Spencer Da=
wkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Gonzalo,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 9:06 AM Eric Resco=
rla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a><=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Not really. I have not =
received any response to my mail of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Oct 23.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As before, I&#39;m happ=
y to have a call, but I believe we&#39;re<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reaching<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the limits of what can =
be accomplished by email.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Eric would know best (it being his Discuss=
), but this is also my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; understanding.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I can add this to the agenda of the IESG i=
nformal telechat on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0November<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 29, if there hasn&#39;t been a call before=
 then, but I don&#39;t have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reason<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to wait until then, if it&#39;s possible t=
o talk sooner.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at=
 6:35 AM Gonzalo Camarillo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
onzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson=
.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@e=
ricsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:gonza=
lo.camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Spence=
r,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what is t=
he status of this? Are the authors and the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0shepherd<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0working w=
ith the relevant ADs on the discusses?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-st=
un-pmtud/ballot/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/ballot/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gonzalo<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 24=
-Oct-18 16:40, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 3:44 AM Marc P=
etit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@=
acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Spencer,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I sent my answers to Eric=
 Rescorla questions on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A02018-10-07<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0following=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 an in-person meeting with=
 my co-author, but never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0got a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0response<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 back.=C2=A0 Because there=
 was no change proposed by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Eric I went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ahead and=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 published -19 a couple of=
 weeks after that, with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agreed in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 response to Adam&#39;s an=
d Benjamin&#39;s comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/=
msg02635.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg02635.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ah - I wonder if that was what had hap=
pened.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It sounds like you did the right thing=
, and that Eric<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0has now<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0responded=
,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which is also the right thing to do.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks for helping me understand.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 10/23/18 7:28 PM, =
Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi, Marc,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I see that a -19 has been submitte=
d, but didn&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0see a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reply fro=
m<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Eric in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this thread. Do you think that you=
&#39;ve converged?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (I saw an offer of a conference ca=
ll, so thought an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0out-of-ba=
nd<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; conversation might have happened)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Spencer<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 9:35 AM Mar=
c Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Please see inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 09/10/2018 03:25 AM, Er=
ic Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:3=
1 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Huguenin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pet=
ithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Eric,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Apologies for the dela=
y in getting back to that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think that there is =
some misunderstanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0STUNbis i=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 trying to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; do, so please see my c=
omments inline.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 06/18/2018 10:4=
3 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi folks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve reviewed =
the new version, but I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that the =
biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; discussion makes m=
uch sense.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; To recap, there ar=
e two hashes here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash which y=
ou use to store the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(currentl=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mostly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - The hash you use=
 to compute the MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(currently SHA-1).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; First, let&#39;s s=
tipulate that MD5 isn&#39;t a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0great choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 though SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; isn&#39;t a great =
choice<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either for pwd has=
hing You want Argon or the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0like.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0With that=
 said,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; there&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; no sensible<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown attack on =
that hash because it&#39;s a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0per-serve=
r feature,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; per-transaction<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; feature. So, as lo=
ng as the server has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MD5-hashed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
, the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; situation<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is bad.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In no place in STUNbis=
 we are proposing to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0use SHA-1<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for passw=
ord<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption, so I am no=
t sure where that come<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0from.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What we<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose is:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You&#39;re right, it&#39;s=
 SHA-256, but my criticisms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0apply<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equally t=
here.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; SHA-256 was what the WG adopte=
d.=C2=A0 Our attempts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other pas=
swords<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encryption mechanisms were den=
ied.=C2=A0 It is true<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Argon2 wa=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; list (in our defense Argon2 wa=
s not known<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0before July<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02015), bu=
t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I do not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see why the WG would have acce=
pted that one<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0others.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyway it is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; too late to fix this, as it is=
 my understanding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG do=
es<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 not have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; enough energy to reach consens=
us on a new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Someone can<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; just write a draft adding Argo=
n2 as password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encryptio=
n, as we<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IANA registry for that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Establish a registry=
 for new password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithms<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(section<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 18.5), so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; algorithms like Argon2=
 could be added later<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0(but note<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that our =
own<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proposals to add more =
password algorithms were<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rejected =
by the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 working<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; group).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Add a new password a=
lgorithm to that registry,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0namely SH=
A-256.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Register MD5 as an i=
nitial password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0backward<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; purpose.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for the biddown pro=
tection itself, it is my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0recollect=
ion that it<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; happened more or less =
like that:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. MEETING ROOM - DA=
Y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; One of the co-editors =
of STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0microphon=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added SHA-256 protection for<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passwords=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in STUNBis.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0SOMEONE (V.O.)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As MD5 still need to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supported,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you need =
to add<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protection for bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CLOSE-UP on CO-EDITOR =
ROLLING HIS EYES<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OK, I&#39;ll work on that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Four to eight months h=
as passed.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; INT. ANOTHER MEETING R=
OOM - DAY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The same co-editor of =
STUNBis stands at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0microphone:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We added a nice mechanism to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0prevent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacks on passwords.=C2=A0 Any<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0comments?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0THE ROOM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(silence)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0CO-EDITOR<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Moving on...<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see how any of=
 this is relevant to my<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0technical=
 points<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; My point was that we, the co-e=
ditors, did not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0decide on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection, someone asked us t=
o do so and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no-one in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0WG saw<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any problem<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; with that.=C2=A0 The reasons t=
hat person wanted that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0known to<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 us but, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; you insist, here&#39;s one rea=
son I can think of:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is a fact that, for operati=
onal reasons, a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0database<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 cannot be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; re-encrypted at once.=C2=A0 Al=
so for operational<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reasons,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MD5 p=
assword<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; cannot be immediately removed =
from the database<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as soon<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the user<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 submitted<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; a new one.=C2=A0 In fact, and =
for quite some time, both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encrypted=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 variants of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the same password may have to =
be kept in that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0database,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0because a=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 single<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; user may use a mix of devices,=
 some of them<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that use an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 client,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some that use a STUNbis client=
.=C2=A0 It is up to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server ow=
ner to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; decide how long the migration =
to STUNbis will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0take and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when it<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; acceptable to reject all RFC 5=
389 (i.e. MD5)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients (that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 migration time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; can be purposely reduced to 0 =
seconds but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0that&#39;s the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0choice an=
d<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; responsibility of the owner of=
 the server).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Meanwhile we still need to be =
sure that if the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client is=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis it unconditionally get=
s the additional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protectio=
n of the new<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password encryption algorithm.=
=C2=A0 That&#39;s where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the biddown<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection kicks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in, by preventing an online at=
tacker to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 misidentifying a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUNbis client as an RFC 5389 =
client, by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0preventing an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0online<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacker to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have the client misidentifying=
 a STUNbis server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC 5389<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; having both them use the MD5 e=
ncrypted password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0instead<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SHA-256<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encrypted password, all of tha=
t easily done by<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stripping=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 unprotected<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 401 response of the new STUNbi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; PASSWORD-ALGORITHMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attribute=
.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The second topic i=
s the hash used to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC. Howe=
ver,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don&#39;t<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; see<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; how<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this gives you sen=
sible biddown protection<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that hash=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to compute<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC over the negot=
iation: an attacker who has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compromis=
ed a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; server<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; supports will quit=
e likely be able to forge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 transcript<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; well. This is,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I suppose, potenti=
ally useful as a defense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0some othe=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 weakness<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; version #), but I =
don&#39;t really see how the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0current<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0design<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 helps against<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; attacks on the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no biddown at=
tack protection for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MAC, as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stated in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Section<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 16.3:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;The bid-down pro=
tection mechanism described<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0in this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 is new,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and thus cannot curren=
tly protect against a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attack th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; lowers the strength of=
 the hash algorithm to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0HMAC-SHA1.&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What we put in place i=
s a plan for *future*<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0versions<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of STUN t=
o get<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; biddown protection for=
 the MAC.=C2=A0 That&#39;s it,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0no more,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0no less.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, but I don&#39;t belie=
ve that this will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0provide bid-down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protection for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MAC in the future for the =
reasons I indicate<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0above.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If you think this does som=
ething useful,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0please show me an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 example attack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; and how this fixes it. Not=
e that it&#39;s not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0generally<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 just bid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; down<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the MAC itself unless the =
MAC you bid down to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0is weak<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enough to=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; some other way.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I do not know what weaknesses =
will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0discovered in the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0future.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I am also<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pretty sure that the cost of n=
ot using that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanism<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is very<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 close to 0.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What I am sure of is that the =
cost of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reengineering a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0new biddo=
wn<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; protection mechanism if we eve=
r need it will be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0high.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0We alread=
y<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 went<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; through the pains of designing=
 one for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; password<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm=
, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 why not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; extend it so it can be used in=
 the aftermath of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0next Snow=
den<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 facepalm<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; moment?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Again, happy to have a cal=
l to walk though<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0this if that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; helps.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You might think th=
at there was a MAC which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0was easier to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reverse to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; find<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the original<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; password, but the =
defense you have here<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t help<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with that=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 because<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on-path attacker c=
an do a bid-down and use the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0client as=
 a MAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 oracle<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any MAC the client=
 supports.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; So, I still don&#3=
9;t understand what this is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to do. Ha=
ppy to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; have a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; call if you<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; think that helps<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ekr<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 18, 20=
18 at 3:40 AM, Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Camarillo &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:=
Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">
Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@eri=
csson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Gonza=
lo.Camarillo@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com=
</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Marc, Eric,<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; what is the st=
atus of this discussion?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Gonzalo<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/05/2=
018 2:35 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Mon, Ap=
r 23, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:peti=
thug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 On 04/22/2018 05:22 PM, Eric Rescorla<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Sun=
, Apr 22, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Marc<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Petit-Hug=
uenin &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug=
@acm.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:petit=
hug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:petithug@acm.org" target=3D"_blank">petithug@acm.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For a request or indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0message,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; include the<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGRITY<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; at=
tributes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the message unless the agent<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0knows fro=
m an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 external<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; indication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which message integrity<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supported=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by both<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; agents.=C2=A0 =
In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this case either<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0MESSAGE-INTEGRITY or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-INTEGR=
ITY-SHA256 MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be included in addition to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USERNAME.=
=C2=A0 The HMAC<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; MESSAGE-<br>
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; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
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&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0S 7.3 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5245-bis, which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; says:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; [t=
ext missing]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hm=
m, no, RFC245bis is still<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; referencing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC5389, =
so the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; procedure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; st=
unbis does not apply.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I hear=
 what you&#39;re saying, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0publishing two<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 documents at the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; same time<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; which<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; make c=
ontrary recommendations about<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0the same<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0basic<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; un-good.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Sure, but wouldn&#39;t it be simpler to have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rfc5245bi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 using stunbis<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 and have them updating their text,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0more than<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adding so=
me<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tortuous<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 text in stunbis?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The STUN usage must specify<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; which<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transport=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used, and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ho=
w<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the agent determines the IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0address<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; recipient.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 8 describes a DNS-based<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method of=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 determining<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ad=
dress<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and port of a server that a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0usage<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0may elect=
 to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; STUN<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; may be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; us=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with anycast addresses, but<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; only<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with UDP =
and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in usages<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; where<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication is not used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; Why this restriction? You should<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0be able<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to use<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 anycast with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; long-term<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt=
; AUTH for (say) TURN.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/<=
/a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/curren=
t/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; msg03582.html&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I =
think that the decision of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0permitting Anycast<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be left<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; each<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ST=
UN Usage.=C2=A0 Basic STUN Usage does<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0not use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authentication and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; use<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; only a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on=
e round trip for the Binding<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction, so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Unicast can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; OT=
OH, TURN and ICE should probably say<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 about that,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; so<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; added a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ne=
w bullet point in Section 13:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0used for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the serve=
r<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in case<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Are yo=
u leaving this text in? That<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; seems<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very conf=
using.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 In isolation yes, but I think it makes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0sense<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which the=
 text<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; before<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 the bullet points:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A STUN usage defines how STUN is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0actually<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0utilized =
--<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; send<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requests, what to do with the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0responses,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and which=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures defined here (or in an<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0extension<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to STUN)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are to be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A usage also defines:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 [...]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 If Anycast addresses can be used<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server in=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case TCP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLS-over-TCP, or authentication<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0are used.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What is th=
e need for the restriction at all<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--0000000000000a2e0f0584b04252--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
        Authors         : Marc Petit-Huguenin
                          Gonzalo Salgueiro
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
                          Dan Wing
                          Rohan Mahy
                          Philip Matthews
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21.txt
	Pages           : 74
	Date            : 2019-03-22

Abstract:
   Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) is a protocol that serves
   as a tool for other protocols in dealing with Network Address
   Translator (NAT) traversal.  It can be used by an endpoint to
   determine the IP address and port allocated to it by a NAT.  It can
   also be used to check connectivity between two endpoints, and as a
   keep-alive protocol to maintain NAT bindings.  STUN works with many
   existing NATs, and does not require any special behavior from them.

   STUN is not a NAT traversal solution by itself.  Rather, it is a tool
   to be used in the context of a NAT traversal solution.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5389.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Eric Rescorla via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
To: "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org, Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com, Tolga Asveren <tasveren@rbbn.com>, tram-chairs@ietf.org, tasveren@rbbn.com, tram@ietf.org
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Subject: [tram] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21: (with COMMENT)
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Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21: No Objection

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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for addressing my DISCUSS



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From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
To: Gonzalo Camarillo <Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com>
CC: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org>, "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [tram] Adam Roach's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From: "Gonzalo Salgueiro (gsalguei)" <gsalguei@cisco.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stunbis@ietf.org>, Tolga Asveren <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, tram mailing list <tram@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21: (with COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHU4NFBaN43ZUmDBESp2IZC3aHP8KYX/UyA
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 18:45:50 +0000
Message-ID: <D50F945A-8D37-4D44-B270-7918DFDA1D8B@cisco.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tram/lrn-NifzcMEfzAMuydhc6s4rtrM>
Subject: Re: [tram] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21: (with COMMENT)
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Thanks for clearing, Eric.

@Spencer - I think we can proceed with publication on this draft now that a=
ll DISCUSS and COMMENTs have been addressed.

Thanks,

Gonzalo



> On Mar 22, 2019, at 1:03 PM, Eric Rescorla via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.=
org> wrote:
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> Eric Rescorla has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-tram-stunbis-21: No Objection
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> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
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> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
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> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stunbis/
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Thank you for addressing my DISCUSS
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