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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tram/1hwBec7KKD18AtwNFJNVcrfYsiI>
Subject: Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Hi,

I think we are getting close to resolve all issues. Removed the parts where=
 there are conclusion since earlier.

On 2019-04-28 11:47, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
Hi Magnus,

Please see inline [TR]

From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com><mailto:magnus.west=
erlund@ericsson.com>
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 5:07 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com><mailto:T=
irumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tram@ietf.org<mailto:tram@ietf.org>; dr=
aft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23


CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you =
recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


________________________________
Hi,

Cutting away what appear settled.

On 2019-04-18 10:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:



H. Section 5:

   If the server requires requests to be

   authenticated, then the server's administrator MUST choose a realm

   value that will uniquely identify the username and password

   combination that the client must use, even if the client uses

   multiple servers under different administrations.



Just to verify, TURN does not allow a single server address to host

multiple realms do it? Each Realm needs its own unique server transport

address?

No, I don't see any such restriction in TURN.  For example, in an Enterpris=
e

network with multiple realms, the TURN server based on the client subnet ca=
n

choose the realm.



I think this is a not expressed assumption, that realm determination may be

done based on source IP address of the client's request. That is an assumpt=
ion

that is not generally applicable, but can work for some combinations of rea=
lms.

For example an server that has a REALM for an WebRTC service that is

intended to have no restrictions can't be co-located with anything that has=
 a

small scope as that can lead to selection of the wrong realm.

Yes, both assumptions are deployment specific.  Enterprise TURN servers are=
 discussed in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7478.

Username and password is not the only way to perform mutual authentication =
b/w the TURN client and server, https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7635 discuss=
es using OAuth and is used by WebRTC (see https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-pc/)=
.



What do you think is the best option here. Simple document that there are n=
o

mechanism in the protocol for the client to indicate which REALM it thinks =
it

belongs to and state that the basic mechanism is using different server por=
ts

for different realms. Or to write even more where the possibility in source=
 IP

address identification of realm is described but also its limitations?

If different server ports are used for different realms, the client needs t=
o learn the server ports and manual configuration may not be a suitable opt=
ion. The public TURN server could have different domain names for different=
 realms, and the client can discover the server port for the TURN server do=
main using S-NAPTR.  I don't think the draft should discuss deployment spec=
ific solutions.

So if I understand this correctly your stating that it is up to the server =
implementation to figure out what the realm on what ever information is get=
s based on the request. From a client implementation perspective it appears=
 less clear if anything the client will affect the realm response it will r=
eceive.

[TR] The client cannot affect the realm response from the server, similar t=
o HTTP authentication using realm (please see https://tools.ietf.org/html/r=
fc7235).

Ok. lets end the discussion of this without any change.


I don't think this Section 18 quote is not clear either.

   Following the procedures of the long-term credential mechanism of
   STUN [I-D.ietf-tram-stunbis], the server includes an ERROR-CODE
   attribute with a value of 401 (Unauthorized), a REALM attribute that
   specifies the authentication realm used by the server (in this case,
   the server's domain "example.com"), and a nonce value in a NONCE
   attribute.

So I will not persist on this, but I would appreciate some indications on t=
hat the server may do more than simply have a single realm for a given serv=
er transport address.











X. Section 14:



How are these IP level fields handled when the transport is TCP or TLS/TCP?

There there are not necessary a one to one mapping between datagrams

and TCP packets. And if there are no support then there are need for

clarification of behaviors when using TCP based transport.

Section 14 already clarifies that the descriptions in this section do not a=
pply to

TURN messages sent over TCP or TLS transport from the server to the client.



Yes you are right. What are the recommendations for how to set the fields

when the Channel message or Send Indication arrives over

TCP/(TLS) to the server? To me the basis is the alternative behavior with t=
he

exception for the DF bit. However, behaviors for datagrams orignated by the

server and delivered to the server over non datagram transport will need to

have recommendations also for IPv6.

I am not aware of any standard 1:1 mapping of IP level fields between UDP a=
nd TCP,  https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-12 does not define the=
 behavior to set the fields, the topic was discussed in BEHAVE WG https://m=
ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/behave/QBZaYgk-x5lZNFpE4qCLiztcg8Y and the dec=
ision was to focus only on UDP to UDP case.  What specific change are you p=
roposing in this Section ?

So I am not asking for a 1:1 mapping. What I see as missing is the definiti=
on of how shall be set in UDP packets sent out from the TURN server, and ho=
w to deal with any information in the incoming packets. I think this is som=
ething that should have recommendations as not being obvious for everyone, =
but at the same time such a description is not a huge task to define.

[TR] Okay, will add a new section (IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translat=
ion).

For UDP packets generated based on Channel or Send Indications arriving at =
the TURN server over a TCP Transport I think the following should be done. =
 Note, this a rough sketch, some adjustment of the language should be done =
and formatted like the other options.

TTL: Set to default outgoing value.

DSCP: Set to value used by TCP connection, unless the server implements a r=
emarker. Note, the TCP connection can only use a single DSCP code point so =
inter flow differentiation is not possible, see Section 5.1 of RFC 7657.

[TR] TTL and DSCP explanation looks good, will update draft.

ECN: No mechanism is defined to indicate what ECN value should be used for =
outgoing UDP packets for an allocations, therefore the ECN field shall be s=
et to Not ECT (=3D0b00).

[TR] I think you mean the following:

Due to the lack of feedback mechanisms in UDP, Set the outgoing value to No=
t-ECT (=3D0b00).

I actually mean that there are no mechanism for negotiating and have alloca=
tions set the ECT value in outgoing and propagate the received ECN in Data =
indication to the TURN client. The application on top of the UDP may actual=
ly implement an ECN feedback scheme. These exist for both QUIC and RTP for =
example.

I


Flow Label:

     [As discussed earlier based on the resulting UDP flow].

[TR] Flow Label is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to-IPv6 trans=
lations (sections 13. 1 and 13.2), and not specific to TCP-to-UDP translati=
on. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14 (IP h=
eader fields) does not discuss Flow label.

IPv4 Fragmentation:

      When the server sends a packet to a peer in

      response to a Send indication containing the DONT-FRAGMENT

      attribute, then set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1.  In

      all other cases when sending an outgoing packet containing

      application data (e.g., Data indication, ChannelData message, or

      DONT-FRAGMENT attribute not included in the Send indication), set the=
 DF bit

      in the outgoing IP header to 0.



[TR] Why not use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 fragm=
entation ?



We can re-use the following text:

   IPv4 Fragmentation fields

      Preferred Behavior: When the server sends a packet to a peer in
      response to a Send indication containing the DONT-FRAGMENT
      attribute, then set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1.  In
      all other cases when sending an outgoing packet containing
      application data (e.g., Data indication, ChannelData message, or
      DONT-FRAGMENT attribute not included in the Send indication), copy
      the DF bit from the DF bit of the incoming packet that contained
      the application data.

      Set the other fragmentation fields (Identification, More
      Fragments, Fragment Offset) as appropriate for a packet
      originating from the server.

      Alternate Behavior: As described in the Preferred Behavior, except
      always assume the incoming DF bit is 0.

      In both the Preferred and Alternate Behaviors, the resulting
      packet may be too large for the outgoing link.  If this is the
      case, then the normal fragmentation rules apply [RFC1122].

Because you can't copy the DF bit from the incoming packet. There are no 1-=
to-1 correspondence here. With TCP to UDP I can easily generate a SEND indi=
cation requesting that a oversized packet be sent.  That send indication wi=
ll be fragmented after all by TCP over multiple packets. So it becomes the =
TURN server to determine if the packet can be sent at all due to interface =
limitations. For this case I think the most straight forward solution is si=
mply to have the client indicate when it want the DF set.




IPv6 Fragmentation:

           Independent if the TCP traffic arrives over IPv4 or IPv6 the fra=
gmentation settings for outgoing  IPv6 UDP packets will have to follow what=
 is defined for IPv4 to IPv6 translation and ignore the DF bit in incoming =
packets, and interpret the presence of the DONT-FRAGMENT attribute as DF=3D=
1 in incoming packet, and for all other cases consider DF=3D0 to apply.

 [TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to-IPv6 tr=
anslations in the draft. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbi=
s-24#section-14 (IP header fields) section does not discuss IPv6 fragmentat=
ion.

Well, in this case the TURN server is originating a packet, which is why se=
ction 14 applies to these outgoing packets to the peer. And as you note it =
doesn't discuss IPv6 fragmentation. Thus, I think there need to be a defini=
tion. That can either be specified in this section or by reference. The tra=
nslation scenarios don't apply.


 IPv4 Options



      Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4

      options.



 [TR] I will add IPv4 options.



IPv6 Extensions Headers:



      Set per default for originated IPv6 packets.



[TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 translations, https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14 (IP header fiel=
ds)section does not discuss extension headers.

Like before this is section 14 text, and not a translation scenario.








On Reception of UDP Packets



If TTL=3D0 then drop packet, else ignore.



DSCP: Ignore, the DSCP value for the Server to Client direction of the TCP =
connection should be based on the value

used for the client to server.



[TR] Both TTL and DSCP explanation looks good, will update draft.



ECN: Ignore. Higher layer protocols attempting to use ECN will not receive =
any ECN signal and thus sender

should stop sending ECT packets if sent.



[TR] I think you mean =93Set the outgoing value to Not-ECT (=3D0b00).=94

No, this is incoming. I just wanted to note that the ECN signal is dropped =
in the TURN server for incoming packets.




Flow Label: Ignore, the TCP connection has its own that is related to peer =
to server flow.

[TR] Flow Label is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to-IPv6 trans=
lations (sections 13. 1 and 13.2), and not specific to UDP-to-TCP translati=
on between the peer and the client.

This is not a translation scenario, but it is irrelevant. So if you simply =
want to say "Ignore" or not discuss it at all doesn't matter to me.


Fragmentation:



Any fragmented packets are reassembled in server and then forwarded to the =
client over the TCP connection.

ICMP messages resulting from sent UDP packets, MUST be forward to client us=
ing TURN's mechanism for relevant ICMP types.



IPv4 Options are processed by server if possible, else ignored



[TR] Let=92s use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 optio=
ns.

I can't find that there are anything at all written about this, and that is=
 likely fine. Or did you have any particular text in mind? In that case ple=
ase quote.




IPv6 Extension headers are processed by server if possible as intended endp=
oint, else ignored.



[TR] The IPv6 Extension behavior is already discussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 trans=
lation.

Sure.








Y. Section 16.4.  DATA



   The DATA attribute is present in all Send and Data indications.  The

   value portion of this attribute is variable length and consists of

   the application data (that is, the data that would immediately follow

   the UDP header if the data was been sent directly between the client

   and the peer).  If the length of this attribute is not a multiple of

   4, then padding must be added after this attribute.



Can you please clarify if one would get all the remaining bytes of

the IP packet payload or only the number of bytes the UDP length field

indicates ?

The reason I ask is that there is possibility that there are a

discrepancy between these fields, something the proposal for an

experimental specification for UDP options attempt to utilize.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/



Note, I only want you to clarify what is actually included. I would

assume using the UDP length field makes sense in this case.

The application data does not include the options discussed in draft-ietf-

tsvwg-udp-options.

Please clarify the specific update you are looking in this section.

My intention here was not to bring in UDP options, only to ensure that the

specification text is clear. As UDP options draft points out there could be=
 a

discrepancy between the UDP length and IP length. Thus, I think there is a =
point

to make it clear that the data includes UDP length -8 bytes of UDP payload.

Possible include a informative reference for why there might be a discrepan=
cy.

The data only includes the application data, and the length of the attribut=
e is also based on the application data, and I don't see any discrepancy in=
 the client to determine the length of the application data.

To avoid any future confusion if UDP options gets deployed I think this doc=
ument can clarify that the DATA part is what is defined as UDP user data in=
 the below figure, i.e. the UDP length field - UDP header length amount of =
data after the UDP header in the IP packet such that the surplus area never=
 is included.

                             IP transport payload

                <------------------------------------------------->

      +--------+---------+----------------------+------------------+

      | IP Hdr | UDP Hdr |     UDP user data    |   surplus area   |

      +--------+---------+----------------------+------------------+

                <------------------------------>

                           UDP Length



               Figure 3 IP transport payload vs. UDP Length

Note, this is to my understanding what is called UDP user data is what the =
current OS implementations will give you if you use their interfaces, but i=
f the TURN Server is implemented using RAW IP packets this nuance may be mi=
ssed.

[TR] Thanks for the explanation, I will add the following the line to avoid=
 future confusion:

The application data is equivalent to the "UDP user data" and does not incl=
ude the "surplus area" defined in Section 4 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options=
.

Good.


Cheers,

-Tiru


Cheers


Magnus Westerlund

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Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
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<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">I think we are getting close to resolve all =
issues. Removed the parts where there are conclusion since earlier.
<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-04-28 11:47, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red=
dy wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Hi Magnus,<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Please see inline [=
TR]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1=0A=
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> Magnus Westerlund
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsso=
n.com">&lt;magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com&gt;</a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 26, 2019 5:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" hre=
f=3D"mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com">
&lt;TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com&gt;</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-ab=
breviated" href=3D"mailto:tram@ietf.org">
tram@ietf.org</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:dra=
ft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org">
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" style=3D"background:#F3FF33;border:solid #9=
B9A87 1.5pt" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"border:none;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt=0A=
                    .75pt">
<p><strong><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sa=
ns-serif;color:#9B8B3E">CAUTION</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#9B8B3E">:</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">
 External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recogniz=
e the sender and know the content is safe.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center">
<hr width=3D"100%" size=3D"2" align=3D"center">
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cutting away what appear settled. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2019-04-18 10:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<o:p><br>
</o:p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">H. Section 5: <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If the server requires requests to be<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; authenticated, then the server's administrator MUST choos=
e a realm<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; value that will uniquely identify the username and passwo=
rd<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; combination that the client must use, even if the client =
uses<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; multiple servers under different administrations.<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Just to verify, TURN does not allow a single server address to host<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>multiple realms do it? Each Realm needs its own unique server transpor=
t<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>address?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>No, I don't see any such restriction in TURN.&nbsp; For example, in an=
 Enterprise<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>network with multiple realms, the TURN server based on the client subn=
et can<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>choose the realm.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I think this is a not expressed assumption, that realm determination m=
ay be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>done based on source IP address of the client's request. That is an as=
sumption<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>that is not generally applicable, but can work for some combinations o=
f realms.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>For example an server that has a REALM for an WebRTC service that is<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>intended to have no restrictions can't be co-located with anything tha=
t has a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>small scope as that can lead to selection of the wrong realm.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Yes, both assumptions are deployment specific.&nbsp; Enterprise TURN s=
ervers are discussed in <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7478" moz=
-do-not-send=3D"true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7478</a>. <o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre>Username and password is not the only way to perform mutual authentica=
tion b/w the TURN client and server, <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/rfc7635" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7635</a> =
discusses using OAuth and is used by WebRTC (see <a href=3D"https://w3c.git=
hub.io/webrtc-pc/" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://w3c.github.io/webrtc-pc=
/</a>). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>What do you think is the best option here. Simple document that there =
are no<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>mechanism in the protocol for the client to indicate which REALM it th=
inks it<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>belongs to and state that the basic mechanism is using different serve=
r ports<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>for different realms. Or to write even more where the possibility in s=
ource IP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>address identification of realm is described but also its limitations?=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>If different server ports are used for different realms, the client ne=
eds to learn the server ports and manual configuration may not be a suitabl=
e option. The public TURN server could have different domain names for diff=
erent realms, and the client can discover the server port for the TURN serv=
er domain using S-NAPTR.&nbsp; I don't think the draft should discuss deplo=
yment specific solutions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>So if I understand this correctly your stating that it is up to the serv=
er implementation to figure out what the realm on what ever information is =
gets based on the request. From a client implementation perspective it appe=
ars less clear if anything the client
 will affect the realm response it will receive. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] The client cannot affect the realm response from the server, simila=
r to HTTP authentication using realm (please see
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7235" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7235</a>).</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Ok. lets end the discussion of this without any change. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't think this Section 18 quote is not clear either. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp; Following the procedures of the long-term credential mechan=
ism of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; STUN [I-D.ietf-tram-stunbis], the server includes an ERROR-COD=
E<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; attribute with a value of 401 (Unauthorized), a REALM attribut=
e that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; specifies the authentication realm used by the server (in this=
 case,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; the server's domain &quot;example.com&quot;), and a nonce valu=
e in a NONCE<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; attribute.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So I will not persist on this, but I would appreciate some indications o=
n that the server may do more than simply have a single realm for a given s=
erver transport address.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<o:p></o:p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><br>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>X. Section 14:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>How are these IP level fields handled when the transport is TCP or TLS=
/TCP?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>There there are not necessary a one to one mapping between datagrams<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and TCP packets. And if there are no support then there are need for<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>clarification of behaviors when using TCP based transport.<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>Section 14 already clarifies that the descriptions in this section do =
not apply to<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>TURN messages sent over TCP or TLS transport from the server to the cl=
ient.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Yes you are right. What are the recommendations for how to set the fie=
lds<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>when the Channel message or Send Indication arrives over<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre>TCP/(TLS) to the server? To me the basis is the alternative behavior w=
ith the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>exception for the DF bit. However, behaviors for datagrams orignated b=
y the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>server and delivered to the server over non datagram transport will ne=
ed to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>have recommendations also for IPv6.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>I am not aware of any standard 1:1 mapping of IP level fields between =
UDP and TCP, &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-1=
2" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-12<=
/a> does not define the behavior to set the fields, the topic was discussed=
 in BEHAVE WG <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/behave/QBZaY=
gk-x5lZNFpE4qCLiztcg8Y" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://mailarchive.ietf.o=
rg/arch/msg/behave/QBZaYgk-x5lZNFpE4qCLiztcg8Y</a> and the decision was to =
focus only on UDP to UDP case.&nbsp; What specific change are you proposing=
 in this Section ?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>So I am not asking for a 1:1 mapping. What I see as missing is the defin=
ition of how shall be set in UDP packets sent out from the TURN server, and=
 how to deal with any information in the incoming packets. I think this is =
something that should have recommendations
 as not being obvious for everyone, but at the same time such a description=
 is not a huge task to define.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] Okay, will add a new section (IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP trans=
lation).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>For UDP packets generated based on Channel or Send Indications arriving =
at the TURN server over a TCP Transport I think the following should be don=
e.&nbsp; Note, this a rough sketch, some adjustment of the language should =
be done and formatted like the other
 options. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>TTL: Set to default outgoing value. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>DSCP: Set to value used by TCP connection, unless the server implements =
a remarker. Note, the TCP connection can only use a single DSCP code point =
so inter flow differentiation is not possible, see Section 5.1 of RFC 7657.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] TTL and DSCP explanation looks good, will update draft.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p>ECN: No mechanism is defined to indicate what ECN value should be used f=
or outgoing UDP packets for an allocations, therefore the ECN field shall b=
e set to Not ECT (=3D0b00).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] I think you mean the following:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Due to the lack of feedback mechanisms in UDP, Set the outgoing value to=
 Not-ECT (=3D0b00).</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I actually mean that there are no mechanism for negotiating and have all=
ocations set the ECT value in outgoing and propagate the received ECN in Da=
ta indication to the TURN client. The application on top of the UDP may act=
ually implement an ECN feedback
 scheme. These exist for both QUIC and RTP for example. <br>
</p>
<p>I<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Flow Label:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [As discussed earlier based on the resulting UD=
P flow]. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] Flow Label is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to-IPv6 tr=
anslations (sections 13. 1 and 13.2), and not specific to TCP-to-UDP transl=
ation.
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-1=
4" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14</a> (IP h=
eader fields) does not discuss Flow label.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>IPv4 Fragmentation: <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;When the server sends a packet to =
a peer in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; response to a Send indication containin=
g the DONT-FRAGMENT<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attribute, then set the DF bit in the o=
utgoing IP header to 1.&nbsp; In<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; all other cases when sending an outgoin=
g packet containing<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; application data (e.g., Data indication=
, ChannelData message, or<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DONT-FRAGMENT attribute not included in=
 the Send indication), set the DF bit<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the outgoing IP header to 0. <o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] Why not use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 =
fragmentation ? <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We can re-use the following text:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv4 Fragmentation f=
ields<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pr=
eferred Behavior: When the server sends a packet to a peer in<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; re=
sponse to a Send indication containing the DONT-FRAGMENT<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; at=
tribute, then set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1.&nbsp; In<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; al=
l other cases when sending an outgoing packet containing<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ap=
plication data (e.g., Data indication, ChannelData message, or<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DO=
NT-FRAGMENT attribute not included in the Send indication), copy<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; th=
e DF bit from the DF bit of the incoming packet that contained<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; th=
e application data.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Se=
t the other fragmentation fields (Identification, More<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fr=
agments, Fragment Offset) as appropriate for a packet<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or=
iginating from the server.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Al=
ternate Behavior: As described in the Preferred Behavior, except<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; al=
ways assume the incoming DF bit is 0.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In=
 both the Preferred and Alternate Behaviors, the resulting<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pa=
cket may be too large for the outgoing link.&nbsp; If this is the<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ca=
se, then the normal fragmentation rules apply [RFC1122].</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Because you can't copy the DF bit from the incoming packet. There are no=
 1-to-1 correspondence here. With TCP to UDP I can easily generate a SEND i=
ndication requesting that a oversized packet be sent.&nbsp; That send indic=
ation will be fragmented after all by
 TCP over multiple packets. So it becomes the TURN server to determine if t=
he packet can be sent at all due to interface limitations. For this case I =
think the most straight forward solution is simply to have the client indic=
ate when it want the DF set.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<p>IPv6 Fragmentation:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Independent=
 if the TCP traffic arrives over IPv4 or IPv6 the fragmentation settings fo=
r outgoing&nbsp; IPv6 UDP packets will have to follow what is defined for I=
Pv4 to IPv6 translation and ignore the DF bit in incoming packets, and inte=
rpret the presence
 of the DONT-FRAGMENT attribute as DF=3D1 in incoming packet, and for all o=
ther cases consider DF=3D0 to apply.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>&nbsp;[TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to=
-IPv6 translations in the draft.
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-1=
4" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14</a> (IP h=
eader fields) section does not discuss IPv6 fragmentation.
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Well, in this case the TURN server is originating a packet, which is why=
 section 14 applies to these outgoing packets to the peer. And as you note =
it doesn't discuss IPv6 fragmentation. Thus, I think there need to be a def=
inition. That can either be specified
 in this section or by reference. The translation scenarios don't apply. <b=
r>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;IPv4 Options<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet=
 is sent without any IPv4<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; options.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<p>&nbsp;[TR] I will add IPv4 options. <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>IPv6 Extensions Headers:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Set per default for originated IPv6 pac=
kets. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 translations, <=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14=
" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn=
bis-24#section-14</a> (IP header fields)section does not discuss extension =
headers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Like before this is section 14 text, and not a translation scenario. <br=
>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>On Reception of UDP Packets<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>If TTL=3D0 then drop packet, else ignore. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>DSCP: Ignore, the DSCP value for the Server to Client direction of the=
 TCP connection should be based on the value <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>used for the client to server. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] Both TTL and DSCP explanation looks good, will update draft.<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>ECN: Ignore. Higher layer protocols attempting to use ECN will not rec=
eive any ECN signal and thus sender <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>should stop sending ECT packets if sent. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] I think you mean =93Set the outgoing value to Not-ECT (=3D0b00).=
=94</pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>No, this is incoming. I just wanted to note that the ECN signal is dropp=
ed in the TURN server for incoming packets.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Flow Label: Ignore, the TCP connection has its own that is related to =
peer to server flow. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p>[TR] Flow Label is already discussed in IPv4-to-IPv6 and IPv6-to-IPv6 tr=
anslations (sections 13. 1 and 13.2), and not specific to UDP-to-TCP transl=
ation between the peer and the client.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This is not a translation scenario, but it is irrelevant. So if you simp=
ly want to say &quot;Ignore&quot; or not discuss it at all doesn't matter t=
o me.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>Fragmentation: <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Any fragmented packets are reassembled in server and then forwarded to=
 the client over the TCP connection. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>ICMP messages resulting from sent UDP packets, MUST be forward to clie=
nt using TURN's mechanism for relevant ICMP types.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>IPv4 Options are processed by server if possible, else ignored<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] Let=92s use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 =
options.</pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I can't find that there are anything at all written about this, and that=
 is likely fine. Or did you have any particular text in mind? In that case =
please quote.
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>IPv6 Extension headers are processed by server if possible as intended=
 endpoint, else ignored. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:windowtext">[TR] </span>The IPv6 Extension behavior is already d=
iscussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 translation.</pre>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Sure. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-s=
erif;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Y. Section 16.4.&nbsp; DATA<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The DATA attribute is present in all Send and Data indica=
tions.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; value portion of this attribute is variable length and co=
nsists of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the application data (that is, the data that would immedi=
ately follow<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the UDP header if the data was been sent directly between=
 the client<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; and the peer).&nbsp; If the length of this attribute is n=
ot a multiple of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; 4, then padding must be added after this attribute.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Can you please clarify if one would get all the remaining bytes of<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>the IP packet payload or only the number of bytes the UDP length field=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre>indicates ?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>The reason I ask is that there is possibility that there are a<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>discrepancy between these fields, something the proposal for an<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>experimental specification for UDP options attempt to utilize.<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-optio=
ns/" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-t=
svwg-udp-options/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Note, I only want you to clarify what is actually included. I would<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>assume using the UDP length field makes sense in this case.<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>The application data does not include the options discussed in draft-i=
etf-<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>tsvwg-udp-options.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Please clarify the specific update you are looking in this section.<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>My intention here was not to bring in UDP options, only to ensure that=
 the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>specification text is clear. As UDP options draft points out there cou=
ld be a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>discrepancy between the UDP length and IP length. Thus, I think there =
is a point<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to make it clear that the data includes UDP length -8 bytes of UDP pay=
load.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Possible include a informative reference for why there might be a disc=
repancy.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre>The data only includes the application data, and the length of the att=
ribute is also based on the application data, and I don't see any discrepan=
cy in the client to determine the length of the application data. <o:p></o:=
p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>To avoid any future confusion if UDP options gets deployed I think this =
document can clarify that the DATA part is what is defined as UDP user data=
 in the below figure, i.e. the UDP length field - UDP header length amount =
of data after the UDP header in
 the IP packet such that the surplus area never is included. <o:p></o:p></p=
>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IP transport payload<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;-------------------------------------------------&=
gt;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--------&#43;---------&#43;-------=
---------------&#43;------------------&#43;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | IP Hdr | UDP Hdr |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; UDP user data&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; surplus area&nbsp;&nbsp=
; |<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;--------&#43;---------&#43;-------=
---------------&#43;------------------&#43;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;------------------------------&gt;<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; UDP Length<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; Figure 3 IP transport payload vs. UDP Length<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<p>Note, this is to my understanding what is called UDP user data is what t=
he current OS implementations will give you if you use their interfaces, bu=
t if the TURN Server is implemented using RAW IP packets this nuance may be=
 missed.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR] Thanks for the explanation, I will add the following the line to av=
oid future confusion:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The application data is equivalent to the &quot;UDP user data&quot; and =
does not include the &quot;surplus area&quot; defined in Section 4 of draft=
-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options.<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Good. <br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB2790F74A7D46937AD59A0363EA38=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>-Tiru<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Cheers<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  &#43;46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile &#43;46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated"=
 href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com</a>=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------</pre=
>
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Subject: Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 15:45:30 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tram/-UVuKQWJmAjpFo_JpIw5wBD1QgI>
Subject: Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Hi,

Regarding the two questions.


On 2019-05-05 08:08, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:



 IPv4 Options



      Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4

      options.



 [TR] I will add IPv4 options.



IPv6 Extensions Headers:



      Set per default for originated IPv6 packets.



[TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 translations, https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14 (IP header fiel=
ds)section does not discuss extension headers.

Like before this is section 14 text, and not a translation scenario.

[TR2] I meant section 14 (IP Header Fields) for UDP-to-UDP translation does=
 not discuss IPv6 extension header, any specific reason the new section (IP=
 Headers fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) should discuss IPv6 Extension h=
eaders (it is already covered in Sections 13.1 and 13.2) ?

So my reasoning is that Section 14 covers packets that are considered sourc=
ed by the TURN server, while 13.2 only covers translation scenarios where t=
here are a one-to-one correspondence and there are possible to do a informa=
tion transfer. As that isn't possible in the TCP <-> UDP context we are dis=
cussing I think you can either include it in Section 14. Alternatively expa=
nd section 13.1 and 13.2 to include this case also. But I think the later r=
equires more text to clarify which cases where there are no one-to-one corr=
espondence?



Fragmentation:



Any fragmented packets are reassembled in server and then forwarded to the =
client over the TCP connection.

ICMP messages resulting from sent UDP packets, MUST be forward to client us=
ing TURN's mechanism for relevant ICMP types.



IPv4 Options are processed by server if possible, else ignored



[TR] Let=92s use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 optio=
ns.

I can't find that there are anything at all written about this, and that is=
 likely fine. Or did you have any particular text in mind? In that case ple=
ase quote.

[TR2] I will add the following lines:
   IPv4 Options

      Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4
      options.

      Alternate Behavior: Same as preferred.


If the peer avoids UDP fragmentation, I don=92t get the use of the proposed=
 line =93Any fragmented packets are reassembled in server and then forwarde=
d to the client over the TCP connection.=94

I don't think the peer are mandated to set the DF bit, and thus fragmented =
packets could arrive at the TURN server from the peer. In that case re-asse=
mbly do need to happen at the TURN server. It is fairly obvious that this i=
s what should be happening. But this description is already at the level of=
 details that enables a IP packet level implementation  to not forget thing=
s, so why leave this out?


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com<mailto=
:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Hi,</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Regarding the two questions.</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-05-05 08:08, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red=
dy wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p><o:p></o:p></p>
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue=0A=
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre>&nbsp;IPv4 Options<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet=
 is sent without any IPv4<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; options.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p>&nbsp;[TR] I will add IPv4 options. <o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IPv6 Extensions Headers:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Set per default for originated IPv6 pac=
kets. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] The behavior is already discussed in IPv6-to-IPv6 translations, <=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-24#section-14=
" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turn=
bis-24#section-14</a> (IP header fields)section does not discuss extension =
headers.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Like before this is section 14 text, and not a translation scenario. <o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR2] I meant section 14 (IP Header Fields) for UDP-to-UDP translation d=
oes not discuss IPv6 extension header, any specific reason the new section =
(IP Headers fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) should discuss IPv6 Extensio=
n headers (it is already covered
 in Sections 13.1 and 13.2) ? </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>So my reasoning is that Section 14 covers packets that are considered so=
urced by the TURN server, while 13.2 only covers translation scenarios wher=
e there are a one-to-one correspondence and there are possible to do a info=
rmation transfer. As that isn't
 possible in the TCP &lt;-&gt; UDP context we are discussing I think you ca=
n either include it in Section 14. Alternatively expand section 13.1 and 13=
.2 to include this case also. But I think the later requires more text to c=
larify which cases where there are no
 one-to-one correspondence? <br>
</p>
<br>
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:BYAPR16MB27905EBA3D101996A86CE695EA37=
0@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in=0A=
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue=0A=
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<pre>Fragmentation: <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Any fragmented packets are reassembled in server and then forwarded to=
 the client over the TCP connection. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>ICMP messages resulting from sent UDP packets, MUST be forward to clie=
nt using TURN's mechanism for relevant ICMP types.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>IPv4 Options are processed by server if possible, else ignored<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[TR] Let=92s use the same behavior as UDP-to-UDP translation for IPv4 =
options.<o:p></o:p></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I can't find that there are anything at all written about this, and that=
 is likely fine. Or did you have any particular text in mind? In that case =
please quote.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>[TR2] I will add the following lines:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv4 Options<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pr=
eferred Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; op=
tions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Al=
ternate Behavior: Same as preferred.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier=0A=
              New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If the peer avoids UDP fragmentation, I don=92t get =
the use of the proposed line =93Any fragmented packets are reassembled in s=
erver and then forwarded to the client over the TCP connection.=94
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't think the peer are mandated to set the DF bit, and thus fragment=
ed packets could arrive at the TURN server from the peer. In that case re-a=
ssembly do need to happen at the TURN server. It is fairly obvious that thi=
s is what should be happening. But
 this description is already at the level of details that enables a IP pack=
et level implementation&nbsp; to not forget things, so why leave this out?<=
/p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">Cheers =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  &#43;46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile &#43;46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated"=
 href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com</a>=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------</pre=
>
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-turnbis@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Subject: Re: [tram] AD Evaluation of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-23
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Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
        Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Alan Johnston
                          Philip Matthews
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt
	Pages           : 89
	Date            : 2019-05-14

Abstract:
   If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
   be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
   (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
   the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
   relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
   Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
   operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
   the relay.  TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in
   that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a
   single relay address.

   The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
   (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
   though it also can be used without ICE.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt
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This revision addresses comments from our AD review. Added a new section ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15 to discuss =
how the server sets various fields in the IP header for TCP-to-UDP translat=
ion when relaying between the client and the peer,  and UDP-to-TCP translat=
ion when relaying between the peer and the client.=20

Cheers,
-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram <tram-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 3:52 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt
>=20
> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link=
s or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the
> IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay=
 Extensions
> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
>         Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Alan Johnston
>                           Philip Matthews
>                           Jonathan Rosenberg
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt
> 	Pages           : 89
> 	Date            : 2019-05-14
>=20
> Abstract:
>    If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
>    be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
>    (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
>    the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
>    relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
>    Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
>    operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
>    the relay.  TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in
>    that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a
>    single relay address.
>=20
>    The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
>    (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
>    though it also can be used without ICE.
>=20
>    This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram


From nobody Tue May 14 07:36:03 2019
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Subject: [tram] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt> (Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the TURN Revised and Modernized WG
(tram) to consider the following document: - 'Traversal Using Relays around
NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session
   Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)'
  <draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2019-05-28. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
   be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
   (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
   the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
   relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
   Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
   operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
   the relay.  TURN differs from some other relay control protocols in
   that it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a
   single relay address.

   The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
   (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
   though it also can be used without ICE.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.





From nobody Wed May 15 06:08:51 2019
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Subject: [tram] tram - Not having a session at IETF 105
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Simon Perreault, a chair of the tram working group, indicated that the tram working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 105.

This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool.



From nobody Mon May 20 03:55:35 2019
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Subject: Re: [tram] New test vector for stunbis
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Subject: Re: [tram] New test vector for stunbis
References: <12edea4c-b376-f6f6-30c0-ee8670ee4bed@acm.org>
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The username in the test vector below is the same before and after applyi=
ng UsernameCasePreserved, so it does not permit to detect some potential =
bugs.   Can someone verify the following?  Thanks.


Username: "<U+ff2d><U+ff21><U+ff34><U+ff32><U+ff29><U+ff38>" and "MATRIX"=
 (without quote) respectively before and after UsernameCasePreserved [RFC=
8265] processing

Password: "The<U+00AD>M<U+00AA>tr<U+2168>" and "TheMatrIX" (without quote=
s) respectively before and after OpaqueString [RFC8265] processing

Nonce: "bMatJos2AAACf//499k954d6OL34oL9FSTvy64sA" (without quotes)

Realm: "example.org" (without quotes)


      00 01 00 9c      Request type and message length
      21 12 a4 42      Magic cookie
      78 ad 34 33   }
      c6 ad 72 c0   }  Transaction ID
      29 da 41 2e   }
      00 1e 00 20      USERHASH attribute header
      5c a4 f8 88   }
      36 8e 0d d9   }
      4b 26 c4 40   }
      8c b0 12 23   }  Userhash value (32 bytes)
      85 34 b5 58   }
      99 5c 44 01   }
      c1 7c 71 f6   }
      5f 68 f6 20   }
      00 15 00 29      NONCE attribute header
      6f 62 4d 61   }
      74 4a 6f 73   }
      32 41 41 41   }
      43 66 2f 2f   }
      34 39 39 6b   }  Nonce value and padding (3 bytes)
      39 35 34 64   }
      36 4f 4c 33   }
      34 6f 4c 39   }
      46 53 54 76   }
      79 36 34 73   }
      41 00 00 00   }
      00 14 00 0b      REALM attribute header
      65 78 61 6d   }
      70 6c 65 2e   }  Realm value (11 bytes) and padding (1 byte)
      6f 72 67 00   }
      00 1c 00 20      MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute header
      bd 26 1e 38   }
      6e 83 7d 38   }
      3d 9f 43 91   }
      78 cf 16 36   }  HMAC-SHA256 value
      f5 71 9c 45   }
      a7 2f 0f e6   }
      4b 8b d6 1b   }
      f9 08 79 99   }


On 4/11/19 6:02 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote:
> Thank you.
>=20
> On 4/10/19 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lennox wrote:
>> My unit test agrees.
>>
>>> On Apr 7, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin <petithug@acm.org> w=
rote:
>>>
>>> Now that IANA has allocated codepoints for stunbis, it is time to cal=
culate the final test vector in section B.1.  It would be great is someon=
e could redo the calculations and assert that my results are correct.  Th=
anks.
>>>
>>>
>>> ....
>>> Username: "<U+30DE><U+30C8><U+30EA><U+30C3><U+30AF><U+30B9>" and=20
>>> "\xe3\x83\x9e\xe3\x83\x88\xe3\x83\xaa\xe3\x83\x83\xe3\x82\xaf\xe3\x82=
\xb9"
>>> (without quote) respectively before and after UsernameCasePreserved
>>> [RFC8265] processing
>>>
>>> Password: "The<U+00AD>M<U+00AA>tr<U+2168>" and "TheMatrIX" (without
>>> quotes) respectively before and after OpaqueString [RFC8265] processi=
ng
>>>
>>> Nonce: "bMatJos2AAACf//499k954d6OL34oL9FSTvy64sA" (without quotes)
>>>
>>> Realm: "example.org" (without quotes)
>>>
>>>      00 01 00 9c      Request type and message length
>>>      21 12 a4 42      Magic cookie
>>>      78 ad 34 33   }
>>>      c6 ad 72 c0   }  Transaction ID
>>>      29 da 41 2e   }
>>>      00 1e 00 20      USERHASH attribute header
>>>      4a 3c f3 8f   }
>>>      ef 69 92 bd   }
>>>      a9 52 c6 78   }
>>>      04 17 da 0f   }  Userhash value (32 bytes)
>>>      24 81 94 15   }
>>>      56 9e 60 b2   }
>>>      05 c4 6e 41   }
>>>      40 7f 17 04   }
>>>      00 15 00 29      NONCE attribute header
>>>      6f 62 4d 61   }
>>>      74 4a 6f 73   }
>>>      32 41 41 41   }
>>>      43 66 2f 2f   }
>>>      34 39 39 6b   }  Nonce value and padding (3 bytes)
>>>      39 35 34 64   }
>>>      36 4f 4c 33   }
>>>      34 6f 4c 39   }
>>>      46 53 54 76   }
>>>      79 36 34 73   }
>>>      41 00 00 00   }
>>>      00 14 00 0b      REALM attribute header
>>>      65 78 61 6d   }
>>>      70 6c 65 2e   }  Realm value (11 bytes) and padding (1 byte)
>>>      6f 72 67 00   }
>>>      00 1c 00 20      MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute header
>>>      e4 68 6c 8f   }
>>>      0e de b5 90   }
>>>      13 e0 70 90   }
>>>      01 0a 93 ef   }  HMAC-SHA256 value
>>>      cc bc cc 54   }
>>>      4c 0a 45 d9   }
>>>      f8 30 aa 6d   }
>>>      6f 73 5a 01   }
>>> ....
>>>
>=20


--=20
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org
Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug


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From: "Felipe Garrido (fegarrid)" <fegarrid@cisco.com>
To: "kaduk@mit.edu" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org>, "tram-chairs@ietf.org" <tram-chairs@ietf.org>, "tasveren@rbbn.com" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 07:48:39 -0700
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Subject: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Reviewer: Vijay Gurbani
Review result: Ready with Issues

I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
like any other last call comments.

For more information, please see the FAQ at

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.

Document: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
Reviewer: Vijay K. Gurbani
Review Date: 2019-05-31
IETF LC End Date: 2019-05-28
IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat

Summary: Ready but has some issues that need to be looked at as described below.

Major:

- My advice would be to put S3 (Terminology) before S2.  There are a lot of
 terms defined in S3 that S2 simply uses; it will serve the reader well if they
 already knew these terms by the time the encountered them.
 
Minor:
- S1, paragraph 2: "...NATs that are well behaved."  Here, what is the
 definition of a "well behaved" NAT?  Is there a RFC that encodes expected
 behaviour?  If so, please provide a reference.  If not, then some resource
 should be made available (a paragraph or some reference) where the expected
 behaviour of NATs is codified to some extent.

- S 2.4, Figure 3: "To partly mitigate this attack ...", just to be explicit,
 this is partial mitigation because an attacker, observing the CreatePermission
 request and response can masquerade as the client and immediately send a Send
 indication to the peer address observed in the CreatePermission request.  Is
 this correct?  If so, I think it is worth documenting in the draft.  If not,
 some idea on the origins of the "partial mitigation" will be good to know for
 the implementors of the specification for the sake of completeness.

- S2.7, first paragraph: s/try hard to avoid/avoid/
 (What does it for a program compliant to this specification to "try hard"?
 Either the author of the program knows fragmentation is not desirable or
 they don't and the packet is fragmented.)

- S5, second to last paragraph: "When TCP transport is used ..."  Here, wouldn't
 TCP detect the bit flip?  What am I missing here?  TCP is transporting TURN
 packets, if one of the bits in the TURN packet flips, won't the TCP checksum
 become invalid?

- S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long sequence of invalid..."  Here, how
  long is "long"?  2 messages?  3 messages?  4 messages?  I think an explicit
  guideline may help make the error handling more robust.

- S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying to request any more ..."  Here, how
  many times should a client retry the request upon the receipt of a 508?
  Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; otherwise, some
  clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so on.

- S12: Please label the figure that appears in this section, especially since it
  will be nice to refer to it explicitly, as is required in S12.6.  (There, the
  text simply says "...as described above.", where "above" probably implies the
  table in S12.)

- S13: s/runs in userland/runs in user space/
 ("userland" is colloquial usage, better to use "user space".)
 
Nits:

- Abstract: s/from some other/from other/

That's it!  Thanks.

