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Tue, 4 Jun 2019 03:46:11 -0600 Received: from DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (10.172.44.147) by DM5PR16MB2294.namprd16.prod.outlook.com (52.132.142.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1943.22; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 09:46:09 +0000 Received: from DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3d0a:95ec:9842:68f7]) by DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3d0a:95ec:9842:68f7%9]) with mapi id 15.20.1943.018; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 09:46:09 +0000 From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" To: Vijay Gurbani , "gen-art@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 Thread-Index: AQHVF8AO1lDWTpR4KEeu7XcJ/Za4SaaJ4XTw Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 09:46:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155931411903.6360.15337432658764941505@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <155931411903.6360.15337432658764941505@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.3.0.8 dlp-reaction: no-action authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM5PR16MB2294; H:DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: McAfee.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 4L8OUyUmWZD+zOVNaq5yhS3V/gtll9+05aMRDbnfjzwHUj8uA/YK42rApoeh91KmzUgT8re6CE0n2DFBbzlmESqGQbIu1VgTGw2MQ19dCMilzsCvHUg8aI6YFlOW2DiVdBqJxbigaG/HTEwPmFdZAbeEnqulhLdm3pGn4rU2qp++mggHtSaNb0uxfxLU9nC4ap83/eZuyBa1wt5YH8k1gJgwRAJ6VuuSco0XBUVYsTHdMyD3CVCSu9vyqGrBfVZ32QW8k6TPgFIt5vjRD7rzI8rTBjCtsHtpSycqYvW6U/NzShKP4dDZTAfRe6ZAUHBMFEEJjONVQhKLpZtM4jcMb5E9zLH10u+RgKINywaFAzGwM+ENMfcOY3CwZ4U1MX4Xq3IXHsSqj3++yJi1AfpcWk+kzxyOpILlvO7EmtDVpI8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 717f19c8-8a19-4f06-1b5f-08d6e8d17931 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jun 2019 09:46:09.6692 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB2294 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6560> : inlines <7096> : streams <1823496> : uri <2852536> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 09:46:27 -0000 Hi Vijay, Thanks for the review, Please see inline. > -----Original Message----- > From: tram On Behalf Of Vijay Gurbani via > Datatracker > Sent: Friday, May 31, 2019 8:19 PM > To: gen-art@ietf.org > Cc: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org > Subject: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 >=20 > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link= s or > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is > safe. >=20 > Reviewer: Vijay Gurbani > Review result: Ready with Issues >=20 > I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Revie= w > Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for > the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last cal= l > comments. >=20 > For more information, please see the FAQ at >=20 > . >=20 > Document: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 > Reviewer: Vijay K. Gurbani > Review Date: 2019-05-31 > IETF LC End Date: 2019-05-28 > IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat >=20 > Summary: Ready but has some issues that need to be looked at as described > below. >=20 > Major: >=20 > - My advice would be to put S3 (Terminology) before S2. There are a lot = of > terms defined in S3 that S2 simply uses; it will serve the reader well if= they > already knew these terms by the time the encountered them. Works for me, moved Terminology Section. >=20 > Minor: > - S1, paragraph 2: "...NATs that are well behaved." Here, what is the > definition of a "well behaved" NAT? Is there a RFC that encodes expected > behaviour? If so, please provide a reference. If not, then some resourc= e > should be made available (a paragraph or some reference) where the > expected behaviour of NATs is codified to some extent. Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mappings are not well behav= ed NATs, this paragraph refers to RFC4787 (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/= rfc4787#section-4.1 ) and says hole-punching technique will not work with NATs having Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mapping be= havior.=20 NEW: As described in [RFC5128] and [RFC4787], hole punching techniques will fail if both hosts are behind NATs that are not well behaved. For example, if both hosts are behind NATs that have a mapping behavior of "address-dependent mapping" or "address- and port- dependent mapping" (Section 4.1 in RFC4787), then hole punching techniqu= es generally fail. >=20 > - S 2.4, Figure 3: "To partly mitigate this attack ...", just to be expli= cit, this is > partial mitigation because an attacker, observing the CreatePermission > request and response can masquerade as the client and immediately send a > Send indication to the peer address observed in the CreatePermission > request. Is this correct? =20 >If so, I think it is worth documenting in the draft. If > not, some idea on the origins of the "partial mitigation" will be good t= o know > for the implementors of the specification for the sake of completeness. If the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send indi= cation to the server to a peer based on the permission installed by the TUR= N client to the peer, this attack cannot be mitigated the server unless (D)= TLS is used. However, if the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and= sends bogus Send indication to the server to peer but the client has not i= nstalled permission to the peer, this attack can be mitigated by the server= . The above points are covered in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-t= ram-turnbis-25#section-20.1.4.=20 >=20 > - S2.7, first paragraph: s/try hard to avoid/avoid/ (What does it for a = program > compliant to this specification to "try hard"? > Either the author of the program knows fragmentation is not desirable or > they don't and the packet is fragmented.) Done. >=20 > - S5, second to last paragraph: "When TCP transport is used ..." Here, > wouldn't TCP detect the bit flip? What am I missing here? TCP is > transporting TURN packets, if one of the bits in the TURN packet flips, = won't > the TCP checksum become invalid? Please see the discussion in BEHAVE WG mailing list https://mailarchive.iet= f.org/arch/msg/behave/O7A7vTihIBJ-uKmJT_bSea13wIA=20 >=20 > - S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long sequence of invalid..." Here,= how > long is "long"? 2 messages? 3 messages? 4 messages? I think an expl= icit > guideline may help make the error handling more robust. The threshold for long sequence of invalid TURN messages looks implementati= on specific to me, it was not specified in the base TURN spec (see https://= tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-4). =20 >=20 > - S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying to request any more ..." Here= , how > many times should a client retry the request upon the receipt of a 508? > Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; otherwise, som= e > clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so on. The number of attempts the client would retry is implementation specific. F= or example, if other TURN servers are available, the client can try to get = the relayed transport address from the other TURN servers and need not retr= y the request (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#section-5.1.1.2).=20 >=20 > - S12: Please label the figure that appears in this section, especially s= ince it > will be nice to refer to it explicitly, as is required in S12.6. (Ther= e, the > text simply says "...as described above.", where "above" probably impli= es > the > table in S12.) Sure, added label and referred to it explicitly. ,=20 >=20 > - S13: s/runs in userland/runs in user space/ ("userland" is colloquial = usage, > better to use "user space".) Updated. >=20 > Nits: >=20 > - Abstract: s/from some other/from other/ Fixed. Cheers, -Tiru >=20 > That's it! Thanks. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > tram mailing list > tram@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram From nobody Tue Jun 4 07:15:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A5F120019; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 07:14:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptKl0HcAdXvA; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it1-x135.google.com (mail-it1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57DB912000E; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it1-x135.google.com with SMTP id m187so345497ite.3; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6aYC+/Pdmt3o3va1MOhudzK7+DqOEfQhUdBpT27S2sA=; b=upGSms81NP1h7vYxF8TtFem8IaR7nZXEejKqh+ozokBZVBS1CXF/1pWcfOziuGCMuh 5Lh97UgGaG3aTRTotfJeCDaWl5nBprOqf32VG6vHurbqDRWXD2lsS41LarDVAWlqjtqh BpU2mO+nuKO5ZuqbhY7iihzqMF2Ya012Y32GXzxvWNRR4gNk7D9n2IQmklGwKmux15To dC3dE8Z90GBmfOs1daPmBcKd20nzzgm338HTW8afBsEzyN1UGhuHEakXpVNLfsxypcHQ T2FwkRsh/+xL61NceGjGYsAACGO5kORcnSIEb7G/G+uOsSJpmV9Ibf7flLi0OUrQUqOM pFDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6aYC+/Pdmt3o3va1MOhudzK7+DqOEfQhUdBpT27S2sA=; b=hl2aPms39rBRIf6ulQi0HoIbz9B/mBylE8M0PNBVjxZLoFKka5T8DE0tN0Gtx2Y/Xi T0qNDa+FV0dOwREEf5gu/H8JTCUgfYPw9G6PNiTZio05w/0RRkEgaKR04CeprAHRkmPM vk53hkwC2F5fy/+9veCd0MHC3SzZJ4RHaVB492F5OXgx133NbBPhIJW3cNjNKVbrNa2e FlsrPmvnF6WLatnCg61C5Yqz36gNE8bb3xAHOPL+h/vk2cAJ8g68QqOITdzyN6/KGdml 5rNCvb1PF81SICnRRcaImvs0BzdQ01JrPS1flIxSlr9qaX/AqxPZT71t94DtQoIWChEi 07ug== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+I90OZkY/FANm9+QNuI0alnwCo0cCWUtzUWr50DFev/ZQFmKy IBtBczvCzZ7eIZ4RVhGUl4au9a4jO8jDiLIy5hM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyadawyAJW5qe82/6YoJdGjh/GP4i1DFBHyTpoEMv6ncHg5t1ZePYb7kuZYMuBTvO0x4fC3Wbh0/VvDuy2rpWE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:660c:352:: with SMTP id b18mr20457882itl.20.1559657688493; Tue, 04 Jun 2019 07:14:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155931411903.6360.15337432658764941505@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Vijay Gurbani Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 09:15:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" Cc: "gen-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007e715a058a801a18" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 14:14:52 -0000 --0000000000007e715a058a801a18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Tiru: Thank you for attending to my comments. Please see inline for some more questions based on your comments. Thank you for your time! On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 4:46 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy < TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote: > > Major: > > > > - My advice would be to put S3 (Terminology) before S2. There are a lot > of > > terms defined in S3 that S2 simply uses; it will serve the reader well > if they > > already knew these terms by the time the encountered them. > > Works for me, moved Terminology Section. > Great; thanks. > > > > Minor: > > - S1, paragraph 2: "...NATs that are well behaved." Here, what is the > > definition of a "well behaved" NAT? Is there a RFC that encodes expected > > behaviour? If so, please provide a reference. If not, then some > resource > > should be made available (a paragraph or some reference) where the > > expected behaviour of NATs is codified to some extent. > > Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mappings are not well > behaved NATs, this paragraph refers to RFC4787 (see > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4787#section-4.1 ) and says hole-punching > technique will not work > with NATs having Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mapping > behavior. > > NEW: > As described in [RFC5128] and [RFC4787], hole punching techniques [...] > The new text is a great addition. Thanks. > > - S 2.4, Figure 3: "To partly mitigate this attack ...", just to be > explicit, [...] > > If the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send > indication to the server to a peer based on the permission installed by the > TURN client to the peer, this attack cannot be mitigated the server unless > (D)TLS is used. However, if the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address > and sends bogus Send indication to the server to peer but the client has > not installed permission to the peer, this attack can be mitigated by the > server. The above points are covered in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-20.1.4. > I think a forward reference to Section 20.1.4 can easily be made in Section 2.4 so the reader is aware of the what mitigation properties are being provided by S2.4 and which section is providing the remaining properties. It will make your document much more complete. > > - S5, second to last paragraph: "When TCP transport is used ..." Here, > [...] > > Please see the discussion in BEHAVE WG mailing list > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/behave/O7A7vTihIBJ-uKmJT_bSea13wIA > Hmm ... so according to the above link, the bit flip has to get through the TCP checksum *AND* hit the length field of the TURN packet. Given today's networks, such an event has a very low probability, but in the interest of specifying protocols to handle all kinds of errors, it makes sense to address this. Of course, this is not a problem endemic to TURN, it is a problem inherent any time TCP is used. I do not know what mitigation strategies are used across IETF for an event like this. Perhaps the TSV area directorate can help. In any case, I am fine with leaving the text as-is, although it may make sense to talk to some of the folks in TSV to see how other protocols that ride in TCP handle such cases. (For curiosity's sake, ff not for anything else.) > - S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long sequence of invalid..." Here, > how > > long is "long"? 2 messages? 3 messages? 4 messages? I think an > explicit > > guideline may help make the error handling more robust. > > The threshold for long sequence of invalid TURN messages looks > implementation specific to me, it was not specified in the base TURN spec > (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-4). > If it was not specified in the base TURN specification, then it may make sense to tighten up the behaviour in the bis specification, no? This would be our chance to add a behaviour that can be measured and test cases created against it for protocol resiliency, no? Or am I missing something on why the bis specification does not want to tighten this behaviour? > > - S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying to request any more ..." > Here, how > > many times should a client retry the request upon the receipt of a 508? > > Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; otherwise, > some > > clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so on. > > The number of attempts the client would retry is implementation specific. > For example, if other TURN servers are available, the client can try to get > the relayed transport address from the other TURN servers and need not > retry the request (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#section-5.1.1.2). > > Same feedback as above; if the number of attempts were not specified in rfc5766, could we not do better now? Any reason not to? Thanks. - vijay --0000000000007e715a058a801a18 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tiru: Thank you for attending to my = comments. Please see inline for some more questions based on your comments.= =C2=A0 Thank you for your time!

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 4:46 AM Kon= da, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:
> Major:
>
> - My advice would be to put S3 (Terminology) before S2.=C2=A0 There ar= e a lot of
> terms defined in S3 that S2 simply uses; it will serve the reader well= if they
> already knew these terms by the time the encountered them.

Works for me, moved Terminology Section.

Great; thanks.
=C2=A0
>
> Minor:
> - S1, paragraph 2: "...NATs that are well behaved."=C2=A0 He= re, what is the
> definition of a "well behaved" NAT?=C2=A0 Is there a RFC tha= t encodes expected
> behaviour?=C2=A0 If so, please provide a reference.=C2=A0 If not, then= some resource
> should be made available (a paragraph or some reference) where the
> expected=C2=A0 behaviour of NATs is codified to some extent.

Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mappings are not well behav= ed NATs, this paragraph refers to RFC4787 (see https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4787#section-4.1 ) and says hole-punching tech= nique will not work
with NATs having Address-dependent or Address-and port-dependent mapping be= havior.

NEW:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As described in [RFC5128] and [RFC4787], hole punching techniq= ues [...]

The new text is a great addit= ion.=C2=A0 Thanks.
=C2=A0
> - S 2.4, Figure 3: "To partly mitigate this a= ttack ...", just to be explicit,=C2=A0 [...]

If the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send indi= cation to the server to a peer based on the permission installed by the TUR= N client to the peer, this attack cannot be mitigated the server unless (D)= TLS is used. However, if the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and= sends bogus Send indication to the server to peer but the client has not i= nstalled permission to the peer, this attack can be mitigated by the server= .=C2=A0 The above points are covered in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-20.= 1.4.

I think a forward reference to Section 20.= 1.4 can easily be made in Section 2.4 so the reader is aware of the what mi= tigation properties are being provided by S2.4 and which section is providi= ng the remaining properties.=C2=A0 It will make your document much more com= plete.
=C2=A0
> - S5, second to last paragraph: "When TCP transport is used ...&q= uot;=C2=A0 Here, [...]

Please see the discussion in BEHAVE WG mailing list https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/behave/O7A7vT= ihIBJ-uKmJT_bSea13wIA

Hmm ... so a= ccording to the above link, the bit flip has to get through the TCP checksu= m AND hit the length field of the TURN packet.=C2=A0 Given today'= ;s networks, such an event has a very low probability, but in the interest = of specifying protocols to handle all kinds of errors, it makes sense to ad= dress this.=C2=A0 Of course, this is not a problem endemic to TURN, it is a= problem inherent any time TCP is used.=C2=A0 I do not know what mitigation= strategies are used across IETF for an event like this.=C2=A0 Perhaps the = TSV area directorate can help.=C2=A0 In any case, I am fine with leaving th= e text as-is, although it may make sense to talk to some of the folks in TS= V to see how other protocols that ride in TCP handle such cases.=C2=A0 (For= curiosity's sake, ff not for anything else.)

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > - S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long sequence of invalid...= "=C2=A0 Here, how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0long is "long"?=C2=A0 2 messages?=C2=A0 3 messag= es?=C2=A0 4 messages?=C2=A0 I think an explicit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0guideline may help make the error handling more robust.
The threshold for long sequence of invalid TURN messages looks implementati= on specific to me, it was not specified in the base TURN spec (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-4).=C2=A0
=

If it was not specified in the base TURN s= pecification, then it may make sense to tighten up the behaviour in the bis= specification, no?=C2=A0 This would be our chance to add a behaviour that = can be measured and test cases created against it for protocol resiliency, = no?=C2=A0 Or am I missing something on why the bis specification does not w= ant to tighten this behaviour?
=C2=A0
> - S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying to request any more ..= ."=C2=A0 Here, how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0many times should a client retry the request upon the rece= ipt of a 508?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; o= therwise, some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so= on.

The number of attempts the client would retry is implementation specific. F= or example, if other TURN servers are available, the client can try to get = the relayed transport address from the other TURN servers and need not retr= y the request (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rf= c8445#section-5.1.1.2).

Same feedb= ack as above; if the number of attempts were not specified in rfc5766, coul= d we not do better now?=C2=A0 Any reason not to?
=C2=A0
Thanks.

- vijay
--0000000000007e715a058a801a18-- From nobody Tue Jun 4 23:04:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietf.org Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF25B12003E; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 23:04:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Joseph Touch via Datatracker To: Cc: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.97.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Joseph Touch Message-ID: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 23:04:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2019 06:04:04 -0000 Reviewer: Joseph Touch Review result: Ready with Issues This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. As a preface, this review is performed focusing on the changes since RFC 5766, as this document appears to be a fairly direct update of that content. Transport issues: Although this document has substantial implications for transport protocols, it does not significantly alter the content of RFC5766 in this regard. However, there is a significant gap as follows: - The direct translation of TCP into UDP or UDP into TCP is arguably a host endpoint emulation function, which strongly suggests that this document needs to explicitly address both receiving and transmitting transport options. Even if all received options are ignored and no options are used on transmission, that should be more directly stated – as well as the impact of that decision, both on functionality and security. Sec 2.7 might also note that the support for UDP fragmentation and reassembly could be of benefit here in avoiding IP fragmentation, but that would be contingent on the previous note – i.e., being able to use and react to UDP options in the translation process. Non-transport issues: Like RFC 5766, this doc continues to cite I-D.rosenberg-mmusic-ice-nonsip as guidance, even using a gentle version of “must”, but this no longer seems appropriate because that document has expired over a decade ago. Either the guidance should be summarized in this document or the recommendation should be removed. Section 2.7 is incorrect in its claim of 576 for IPv4; it confuses the receiver reassembly minimum (EMTU_R, 576) for the link MTU (EMTU_S, 68). See draft-ietf-tunnels for details. If 576 is the focus, at best it could be claimed that 576 is the “de-facto” EMTU_S for IPv4. Other nits: Sec 23 indicates the changes since RFC5766; a similar section addressing changes since RFC6156 would be useful to add. 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by mail-it1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id l21so2890536ita.2; Thu, 06 Jun 2019 05:39:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4OqFoZVrbS9XBtGzWS/R7hv3iamQYzx7kTbK+Ni8OZo=; b=djhwQLm0nC4nNuhzXIGrM9KmY1dyt2YlO2JIao4cBa+8iWMS+6zAWSMpgKk5TP9e6w ZhkfisHCt/OLZd2nhQBvcZMjmLFP2gf8F+CY4s8sy6KrDWlWJNP4k4p62EFrGfA+2U+B Vqv3FUDn4fSO/QNjOv1WBXtMB99sTribNxIWiLpXOgB7wvIDsW8BJIqhR5Mlr3Ueqdfn 5gnA52qWhsBLxCk2w2Eid7bqO8IbqfHuX5jJp9/uM/dOpiNyJaivFPVU6VIOYl0E2Wvw aNuVaqmVM7/+jnL7T/ZPq6bJH4hkcQ+0nfqpsiGq/4LfQxstMhDiXRWgUHgTT0g5Qeve 3kiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4OqFoZVrbS9XBtGzWS/R7hv3iamQYzx7kTbK+Ni8OZo=; b=GMnd2vt8JvCschoVa5mswRPK9uibJguapYIDcGfZCdB/Y6prKv9sAgTgyTUYZ0AisO 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boundary="000000000000a1173d058aa701ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 12:39:39 -0000 --000000000000a1173d058aa701ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tiru, thank you for your response. Please see inline. On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:21 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy < TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote: > > - S 2.4, Figure 3: "To partly mitigate this attack ...", just to be > explicit, [...] > > > If the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send > indication to the server to a peer based on the permission installed by t= he > TURN client to the peer, this attack cannot be mitigated the server unles= s > (D)TLS is used. However, if the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP addres= s > and sends bogus Send indication to the server to peer but the client has > not installed permission to the peer, this attack can be mitigated by the > server. The above points are covered in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-20.1.4. > > > > I think a forward reference to Section 20.1.4 can easily be made in > Section 2.4 so the reader is aware of the what mitigation properties are > being provided by S2.4 and which section is providing the remaining > properties. It will make your document much more complete. > > > > [TR] Okay, added the following line: > > The techniques to fully mitigate the attack are discussed in Section > 20.1.4. > > Great, thanks. > > - S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long sequence of invalid..." > Here, how > > long is "long"? 2 messages? 3 messages? 4 messages? I think an > explicit > > guideline may help make the error handling more robust. > > The threshold for long sequence of invalid TURN messages looks > implementation specific to me, it was not specified in the base TURN spec > (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-4). > > > > If it was not specified in the base TURN specification, then it may make > sense to tighten up the behaviour in the bis specification, no? This wou= ld > be our chance to add a behaviour that can be measured and test cases > created against it for protocol resiliency, no? Or am I missing somethin= g > on why the bis specification does not want to tighten this behaviour? > > > > [TR] The threshold values for long sequence of invalid TURN messages is > not discussed in the TRAM WG, and I don=E2=80=99t have information on the= typical > values used in the field. Anyways, not documenting the threshold values > would not cause any interoperable issues for a really low probability > scenario. > > Since the WG has not addressed a threshold for invalid TURN messages, I suspect that there is nothing more to be done here from a process point of view. However, despite this being a low probability scenario, it will be encountered and I suspect that it has been already but just not documented. So from a completeness point of view, it may make sense to bring this to the attention of the TRAM WG and if they have decided, for good reasons, to punt on this, then the issue is closed. I can send an email to the TRAM WG chairs, just to close the loop. > > - S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying to request any more ..." > Here, how > > many times should a client retry the request upon the receipt of a 50= 8? > > Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; otherwise, > some > > clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so on. > > The number of attempts the client would retry is implementation specific. > For example, if other TURN servers are available, the client can try to g= et > the relayed transport address from the other TURN servers and need not > retry the request (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#section-5.1.1.= 2). > > > Same feedback as above; if the number of attempts were not specified in > rfc5766, could we not do better now? Any reason not to? > > > > [TR] The number of attempts depends on the context, For instance (1) If > other TURN servers are available, and the client gets the relayed transpo= rt > address from at least one other TURN server, the client need not retry th= e > request (2) if the client is using ICE ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445), the client can keep retrying till > the candidate gathering phase expires (please note ICE specification does > not specify the candidate gathering phase timeout). > Okay, sounds good. Thank you for attending to my comments. I appreciate it. - vijay > --000000000000a1173d058aa701ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tiru, thank you for your response.=C2=A0 Please = see inline.

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:2= 1 AM Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:
> - S 2.4, Figure= 3: "To partly mitigate this attack ...", just to be explicit,=C2= =A0 [...]


If the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send indi= cation to the server to a peer based on the permission installed by the TUR= N client to the peer, this attack cannot be mitigated the server unless (D)= TLS is used. However, if the attacker spoofs the TURN client IP address and sends bogus Send indication to the s= erver to peer but the client has not installed permission to the peer, this= attack can be mitigated by the server.=C2=A0 The above points are covered = in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-20.1.4. =

=C2=A0

I think a forward reference to Section 20.1.4 can ea= sily be made in Section 2.4 so the reader is aware of the what mitigation p= roperties are being provided by S2.4 and which section is providing the rem= aining properties.=C2=A0 It will make your document much more complete.

=C2=A0

[TR] Okay, added the following line:

The techniques to fully mitigate the attack are disc= ussed in Section 20.1.4.


Great, thanks.
=C2=A0

> - S5, second to last paragraph: "...a long= sequence of invalid..."=C2=A0 Here, how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0long is "long"?=C2=A0 2 messages?=C2=A0 3 messag= es?=C2=A0 4 messages?=C2=A0 I think an explicit
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0guideline may help make the error handling more robust.
The threshold for long sequence of invalid TURN messages looks implementati= on specific to me, it was not specified in the base TURN spec (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766#section-4).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If it was not specified in the base TURN specificati= on, then it may make sense to tighten up the behaviour in the bis specifica= tion, no?=C2=A0 This would be our chance to add a behaviour that can be mea= sured and test cases created against it for protocol resiliency, no?=C2=A0 Or am I missing something on why the bi= s specification does not want to tighten this behaviour?

=C2=A0

[TR] The threshold values for long sequence of inval= id TURN messages is not discussed in the TRAM WG, and I don=E2=80=99t have = information on the typical values used in the field. Anyways, not documenti= ng the threshold values would not cause any interoperable issues for a really low probability scenario.<= /p>


Since the WG has not addressed a threshold for invalid= TURN messages, I suspect that there is nothing more to be done here from a= process point of view.=C2=A0 However, despite this being a low probability= scenario, it will be encountered and I suspect that it has been already bu= t just not documented.=C2=A0 So from a completeness point of view, it may m= ake sense to bring this to the attention of the TRAM WG and if they have de= cided, for good reasons, to punt on this, then the issue is closed.=C2=A0 I= can send an email to the TRAM WG chairs, just to close the loop.
=
=C2=A0

> - S7.3, third paragraph: "...before trying= to request any more ..."=C2=A0 Here, how
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0many times should a client retry the request upon the rece= ipt of a 508?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Again, an explicit guideline will help interoperability; o= therwise, some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0clients will retry only once, other more than once, and so= on.

The number of attempts the client would retry is implementation specific. F= or example, if other TURN servers are available, the client can try to get = the relayed transport address from the other TURN servers and need not retr= y the request (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445#section-5.1.1.2).

Same feedback as above; if the number of attempts we= re not specified in rfc5766, could we not do better now?=C2=A0 Any reason n= ot to?

=C2=A0

[TR] The number of attempts depends on the context, = For instance (1) If other TURN servers are available, and the client gets t= he relayed transport address from at least one other TURN server, the clien= t need not retry the request (2) if the client is using ICE (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445), the client can k= eep retrying till the candidate gathering phase expires (please note ICE sp= ecification does not specify the candidate gathering phase timeout).

=
Okay, sounds good.

Thank you for at= tending to my comments.=C2=A0 I appreciate it.

- v= ijay
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16F156) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:48:18 -0400 Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 13:48:28 -0000 > On Jun 6, 2019, at 9:12 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: >=20 > Hi Joseph, >=20 > Thanks for the review, Please see inline >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tram On Behalf Of Joseph Touch via >> Datatracker >> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 11:34 AM >> To: tsv-art@ietf.org >> Cc: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org >> Subject: [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 >>=20 >> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link= s or >> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is >> safe. >>=20 >> Reviewer: Joseph Touch >> Review result: Ready with Issues >>=20 >> This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review >> team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were >> written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the= >> document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and >> also to the IETF discussion list for information. >>=20 >> When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this= >> review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC t= sv- >> art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. >>=20 >> As a preface, this review is performed focusing on the changes since RFC >> 5766, as this document appears to be a fairly direct update of that conte= nt. >=20 > Yes. >=20 >>=20 >> Transport issues: >>=20 >> Although this document has substantial implications for transport protoco= ls, >> it does not significantly alter the content of RFC5766 in this regard. Ho= wever, >> there is a significant gap as follows: >>=20 >> - The direct translation of TCP into UDP or UDP into TCP is arguably a ho= st >> endpoint emulation function, which strongly suggests that this document >> needs to explicitly address both receiving and transmitting transport opt= ions. >> Even if all received options are ignored and no options are used on >> transmission, that should be more directly stated =E2=80=93 as well as th= e impact of >> that decision, both on functionality and security. >=20 > The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for UDP-to-= UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to discuss d= irect translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only covered UDP-to-= UDP translation in Section 12.=20 Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both current= for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when packets with such t= ransport options are received (the input packet to the translation) and whet= her / how they are used on transmit (the output packet) >=20 >>=20 >> Sec 2.7 might also note that the support for UDP fragmentation and >> reassembly could be of benefit here in avoiding IP fragmentation, but tha= t >> would be contingent on the previous note =E2=80=93 i.e., being able to us= e and react >> to UDP options in the translation process. >=20 > I don't get the comment, what specific change are you looking in the docum= ent ? The doc currently indicates that UDP relies only on IP fragmentation, but th= is isn=E2=80=99t the case with UDP options (there is a UDP-level frag and re= assembly that preserves port numbers on each fragment and would thus be TURN= -compatible). >=20 >>=20 >> Non-transport issues: >>=20 >> Like RFC 5766, this doc continues to cite I-D.rosenberg-mmusic-ice-nonsip= as >> guidance, even using a gentle version of =E2=80=9Cmust=E2=80=9D, but this= no longer seems >> appropriate because that document has expired over a decade ago. Either >> the guidance should be summarized in this document or the >> recommendation should be removed. >=20 > Good point, Revised ICE specification (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8445= ) has been updated to make the procedures independent of the signaling proto= col by removing the SIP and SDP procedures. >=20 > I have updated the text as follows: >=20 > For example, if TURN and ICE are used as part of a multimedia > solution using SIP [RFC3261], then SIP serves the role of the > rendezvous protocol, carrying the ICE candidate information inside > the body of SIP messages [I-D.ietf-mmusic-ice-sip-sdp]. If TURN and > ICE are used with some other rendezvous protocol, then ICE provides > guidance on the services the rendezvous protocol must perform. >=20 >>=20 >> Section 2.7 is incorrect in its claim of 576 for IPv4; it confuses the re= ceiver >> reassembly minimum (EMTU_R, 576) for the link MTU (EMTU_S, 68). See >> draft-ietf-tunnels for details. If 576 is the focus, at best it could be c= laimed >> that 576 is the =E2=80=9Cde-facto=E2=80=9D EMTU_S for IPv4. Other nits: >=20 > Section 2.7 says IPv4 host must be capable of receiving a packet whose len= gth is equal to 576 bytes (EMTU_R, 576). =20 > Why do you say the text is incorrect ? 576 is the reassembly MTU, but is also referred as the PMTU. The PMTU is EMT= U_S and is strictly only 68. >>=20 >> Sec 23 indicates the changes since RFC5766; a similar section addressing >> changes since RFC6156 would be useful to add. >=20 > Okay, added another Section (updates to RFC6156). >=20 > Cheers, > -Tiru >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> tram mailing list >> tram@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram > _______________________________________________ > Tsv-art mailing list > Tsv-art@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art From nobody Fri Jun 7 01:40:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E1112010D; Fri, 7 Jun 2019 01:40:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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MTEyMl0uDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCi1UaXJ1DQoNCg0KPiANCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gU2VjIDIzIGluZGlj YXRlcyB0aGUgY2hhbmdlcyBzaW5jZSBSRkM1NzY2OyBhIHNpbWlsYXIgc2VjdGlvbg0KPiA+PiBh ZGRyZXNzaW5nIGNoYW5nZXMgc2luY2UgUkZDNjE1NiB3b3VsZCBiZSB1c2VmdWwgdG8gYWRkLg0K PiA+DQo+ID4gT2theSwgYWRkZWQgYW5vdGhlciBTZWN0aW9uICh1cGRhdGVzIHRvIFJGQzYxNTYp Lg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQ2hlZXJzLA0KPiA+IC1UaXJ1DQo+ID4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPj4gdHJhbSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPj4gdHJhbUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3RyYW0NCj4gPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+IFRzdi1hcnQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gVHN2LWFy dEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdHN2 LWFydA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jun 7 02:22:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wR4AAKBEsN0ZedRNvRaf7MRGRq0wWjB/XU7G/9JE/tM=; b=fHg8K3MZWnAv8KzkdIcxskLMp Xo2+6kkW8AY6kllQyACgPKLMD7hDUhfMTfqnTh5+FlO9xv4paY3gpOn6zPRqpWBKNt3aQwh4lPhu+ uhbuAK5VthPKxg8d5UvfSrkChy+E2e4ef7AnFtBYWZeSiZu2oY0h1wqbIf3Ecf57nafeKe7CVa8zU DxGfl0512418m+NdNUH3LJSE1YeVIz5Au0/vGLeiMV4fNa8V7FP9rox1f7A6BhQdVXwi/BxcQVjMJ gaAE9LRUoY96U0431LTm5Gig1lAOlf3gcHYY7o71iLYNA3Ky9kL7ZR/kvJsNdDBJbqs3xwCZXMBTc U60dLwZOw==; Received: from 50-207-123-174-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net ([50.207.123.174]:62922 helo=[172.20.14.223]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1hZB4i-0000t0-1d; Fri, 07 Jun 2019 05:22:21 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16F156) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 05:22:15 -0400 Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F2F8A3B-2887-4107-81E2-B4E222A4044E@strayalpha.com> References: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 09:22:24 -0000 On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: >>> The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for UDP-t= o- >> UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to discu= ss >> direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only covered UDP= -to- >> UDP translation in Section 12. >>=20 >> Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both curr= ent >> for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when packets with >> such transport options are received (the input packet to the translation)= and >> whether / how they are used on transmit (the output packet) >=20 > TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams) and th= e approach taken by VOIP related specifications=20 > is to avoid fragmentation for RTP packets Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, it=E2=80=99d= be fair to ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true)= . But it isn=E2=80=99t indicated as the only use case.=20 Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern raised above. RT= P could still employ transport options.=20 And my concern on this point goes beyond the issue of fragmentation. It appl= ies to any transport option that might be received and any that might be add= ed in the converted transmission. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DM5PR16MB1628; H:DM5PR16MB1705.namprd16.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: McAfee.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: R4NMoOhH+hiMW5kF2VOnz29bTu01lt0S2F+kmTy+xo81VpYdB995tryv3MWCPJshHHBMS1PXrnlYwOLx6Ljc2HQ418YvxfV8Ht+fRZT+1rFDL1szV/WpZOsy21ezHzrjpYykPXkqbybE2yHuA8Pdyz4Xgz6N1MXThpECOi4oMf6lycZLTH4P0YNtQxkWmGeYX1whjaGAYarE1bOwEdfSifHdmXDAEnAZA6XfFzuiQIRqiJ1UQxSexSFUuNeQ9i+slOu48OV9mOVXU6clXZRrkHDj5Wue5bevb8SXjgLLF6SvvO6SEKGxJz+0AfeGxNTew+JfIG8YmYFJ+7OCMDwBsHmcI1y24eM97SWyo3oEw7f0EOlhoOhIV6rAdadfMhq42xlad83Z5UA8muyeQK87BnvTlwUyvp5J39zKAHHzxo8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 63e4cd42-5412-4550-28b9-08d6ed6ef1f0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jun 2019 06:43:27.9816 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4943e38c-6dd4-428c-886d-24932bc2d5de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR16MB1628 X-OriginatorOrg: mcafee.com X-NAI-Spam-Flag: NO X-NAI-Spam-Level: X-NAI-Spam-Threshold: 15 X-NAI-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-NAI-Spam-Version: 2.3.0.9418 : core <6564> : inlines <7098> : streams <1824057> : uri <2854497> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 06:44:14 -0000 SGkgSm9lLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZQ0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0t LS0tDQo+IEZyb206IEpvZSBUb3VjaCA8dG91Y2hAc3RyYXlhbHBoYS5jb20+DQo+IFNlbnQ6IEZy aWRheSwgSnVuZSA3LCAyMDE5IDI6NTIgUE0NCj4gVG86IEtvbmRhLCBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3YXIgUmVk ZHkgPFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhclJlZGR5X0tvbmRhQE1jQWZlZS5jb20+DQo+IENjOiB0c3YtYXJ0QGll dGYub3JnOyBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXRyYW0tdHVybmJpcy5hbGxAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IGlldGZAaWV0Zi5v cmc7DQo+IHRyYW1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtUc3YtYXJ0XSBbdHJhbV0gVHN2 YXJ0IGxhc3QgY2FsbCByZXZpZXcgb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi10cmFtLXR1cm5iaXMtDQo+IDI1DQo+ IA0KPiBUaGlzIGVtYWlsIG9yaWdpbmF0ZWQgZnJvbSBvdXRzaWRlIG9mIHRoZSBvcmdhbml6YXRp b24uIERvIG5vdCBjbGljayBsaW5rcyBvcg0KPiBvcGVuIGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIHVubGVzcyB5b3Ug cmVjb2duaXplIHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgYW5kIGtub3cgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgaXMNCj4gc2FmZS4NCj4g DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gT24gSnVuIDcsIDIwMTksIGF0IDQ6MzkgQU0sIEtvbmRhLCBUaXJ1bWFsZXN3 YXIgUmVkZHkNCj4gPFRpcnVtYWxlc3dhclJlZGR5X0tvbmRhQG1jYWZlZS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0K PiANCj4gPj4+IFRoZSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGhhcyB0d28gc2VjdGlvbnMgMTQgYW5kIDE1IChJ UCBIZWFkZXIgRmllbGRzIGZvcg0KPiA+Pj4gVURQLXRvLQ0KPiA+PiBVRFAgdHJhbnNsYXRpb24g YW5kIElQIEhlYWRlciBGaWVsZHMgZm9yIFRDUC10by1VRFAgdHJhbnNsYXRpb24pIHRvDQo+ID4+ IGRpc2N1c3MgZGlyZWN0IHRyYW5zbGF0aW9ucy4gaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1s L3JmYzU3NjYgb25seQ0KPiA+PiBjb3ZlcmVkIFVEUC10by0gVURQIHRyYW5zbGF0aW9uIGluIFNl Y3Rpb24gMTIuDQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+IFllcywgYnV0IGJvdGggc2VjdGlvbnMgaWdub3JlIHRoZSBp bXBhY3Qgb2YgdHJhbnNwb3J0IG9wdGlvbnMgLSBib3RoDQo+ID4+IGN1cnJlbnQgZm9yIFRDUCBh bmQgcGVuZGluZyBmb3IgVURQLiBUaGVzZSBhcmUgaWdub3JlZCBib3RoIHdoZW4NCj4gPj4gcGFj a2V0cyB3aXRoIHN1Y2ggdHJhbnNwb3J0IG9wdGlvbnMgYXJlIHJlY2VpdmVkICh0aGUgaW5wdXQg cGFja2V0IHRvDQo+ID4+IHRoZSB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbikgYW5kIHdoZXRoZXIgLyBob3cgdGhleSBh cmUgdXNlZCBvbiB0cmFuc21pdCAodGhlDQo+ID4+IG91dHB1dCBwYWNrZXQpDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBU VVJOIGlzIHVzZWQgdG8gcmVsYXkgcmVhbC10aW1lIGRhdGEgKGUuZy4gYXVkaW8gYW5kIHZpZGVv IHN0cmVhbXMpDQo+ID4gYW5kIHRoZSBhcHByb2FjaCB0YWtlbiBieSBWT0lQIHJlbGF0ZWQgc3Bl Y2lmaWNhdGlvbnMgaXMgdG8gYXZvaWQNCj4gPiBmcmFnbWVudGF0aW9uIGZvciBSVFAgcGFja2V0 cw0KPiANCj4gU2VjIDIuOCBtZW50aW9ucyBSVFAgYXMgb25lIHVzZSBjYXNlIGVudmlzaW9uZWQg KGF0IHRoaXMgcG9pbnQsIGl04oCZZCBiZSBmYWlyIHRvDQo+IGFzayB0aGlzIHJldmlzaW9uIHRv IGNsYXJpZnkgd2hldGhlciB0aGF0IHR1cm5lZCBvdXQgdG8gYmUgdHJ1ZSkuIEJ1dCBpdCBpc27i gJl0DQo+IGluZGljYXRlZCBhcyB0aGUgb25seSB1c2UgY2FzZS4NCg0KVGhlIGRyYWZ0IHNheXMg VFVSTiBpcyBpbnZlbnRlZCB0byBzdXBwb3J0IG11bHRpbWVkaWEgc2Vzc2lvbnMgc2lnbmFsZWQg dXNpbmcgU0lQIGFuZCBpcyB0eXBpY2FsbHkgdXNlZCB3aXRoIElDRS4gVFVSTiBpcyBhbHNvIHVz ZWQgd2l0aCBXZWJSVEMsIGFuZCBXZWJSVEMgZGF0YSBjaGFubmVscyBhbHNvIA0KYXZvaWQgSVAg ZnJhZ21lbnRhdGlvbiAoc2VlIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pZXRm LXJ0Y3dlYi1kYXRhLWNoYW5uZWwtMTMpLiANCg0KPiANCj4gUmVnYXJkbGVzcywgdGhvdWdoLCB0 aGlzIGRvZXNu4oCZdCBpbXBhY3QgdGhlIGNvbmNlcm4gcmFpc2VkIGFib3ZlLiBSVFAgY291bGQN Cj4gc3RpbGwgZW1wbG95IHRyYW5zcG9ydCBvcHRpb25zLg0KDQpJIGNoZWNrZWQgYWdhaW4gYW5k IGRvbid0IHNlZSBhbnkgUlRQLCBCYWNrLXRvLUJhY2sgVXNlciBBZ2VudHMgKEIyQlVBcyksIFNJ UCBwcm94aWVzIGFuZCBXZWJSVEMgZ2F0ZXdheSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9ucyBkaXNjdXNzaW5nIHRy YW5zcG9ydCBvcHRpb25zIGZvciB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbnMuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCi1UaXJ1DQoNCj4g DQo+IEFuZCBteSBjb25jZXJuIG9uIHRoaXMgcG9pbnQgZ29lcyBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIGlzc3VlIG9m IGZyYWdtZW50YXRpb24uIEl0DQo+IGFwcGxpZXMgdG8gYW55IHRyYW5zcG9ydCBvcHRpb24gdGhh dCBtaWdodCBiZSByZWNlaXZlZCBhbmQgYW55IHRoYXQgbWlnaHQgYmUNCj4gYWRkZWQgaW4gdGhl IGNvbnZlcnRlZCB0cmFuc21pc3Npb24uDQo+IA0KPiBKb2UNCg== From nobody Mon Jun 10 05:29:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98AA120181 for ; 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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:29:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: "tram@ietf.org" References: <12edea4c-b376-f6f6-30c0-ee8670ee4bed@acm.org> <8A91D4E6-1507-46E9-97B7-919CD534372A@vidyo.com> <935c3056-e975-27aa-10b3-4a5673865913@acm.org> <11879b35-f751-9183-b1df-f9f14e35d5e4@acm.org> Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=petithug@acm.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE6Mh9wBEADrUEDZChteJbQtsHwZITZExr7TAqT7pniNwhBX3nFgd+FrV3lsLKJ1rym2 52MAYpubXEJZGzMp6uCCAnROWbtmQbOm8z/jHnjxHhPqfuYCYPpAQqu8K/Sc194Rp37krMwB jz32yr7+gvWLzRgQGKIh9d2mzy8QLMETVWWQWGb6fEfpOxXo0wumN1rc/275kZwOu44JIPGg zbgwZdnEqYOUUa18K9MXeRDoWbwDISP30CvKuZDwD14lbBE3o7tBQrU9uoMhE7eFlTjbsCox qoubI2tZSuOTF8mRXjPmNrRGtf9mYkQnOB7y6qy/QxmOVMq4IRtHzOYIm/EZ6NTodcpZQHOM 2v6B6YK9uKrYrapSpJzn4f9oU7alT31Y3o2hOlxAWDQ16+Dd1MOPYsKQXOwY1/ihm4PTjiJ8 ud8yPzy7c+BSVs5wkBU6QuLNIgZHrrxdn+KxM+F/oAVtfzO7XzVoeOcXyWi3/CHL5pgoBruY enIF/RrRuplpy09pvZjmFPNfqKBYJGnqpQuqsQwO7LsFqDqfY2EuHg+KsGN1XuN+jxXc48/1 gCnKw7ALSPWEb7g25wD6KfiZTAcyRTG8LePNFQKhw61LbIWmkw9EaVLyXvwPTc1iCSc0dDT/ pcT/z+8xrWOyWGZNZAjR584NlDpKollbItcxYtFcYZkvTCmOVwARAQABtCZNYXJjIFBldGl0 LUh1Z3VlbmluIDxwZXRpdGh1Z0BhY20ub3JnPokCOAQTAQgAIgIbIwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsRWqBAAu/61DGo+j38UefTKnEse0mftPBXa S4lre7vknn33MI0L5QXmiM8zRs9FOKSuXPx0EV+JhI4pWZGW/2MJPuyifXHvnIChcdGInN8J GBdTLZSOgdDFZL9msO+QUsvMA8ZUsqlKOEcVL1NyoLupblCWNq4fYhBCx1zDwX9LZSuGn8lZ Mk8a4QFGoR6dWKaOxeCwnoquW5IK1CfRIhYjHfQMjA5gY0H46F0iCqBaFF/S7krQwIJd0XN4 YbSL4KOrWuxtgQ+iH/iaxxBXgJ1blBNRzXaWJBF4PHv23nSnEzWO17j+uVMaHJu7ycYEf8T9 pVc0xcok1BM2rCrNE5FUFAzsUtAtBZEEK6sSIeOhRG93uD/Hv1hrWzEwf+Z7B1tVQLCQQ4kL 7wyS7SXI/JTuW2xTEGCmwMeWYGERdkgsatmx4zi5nVHDjt3/mlPMj4L+u05SkI2iV4W6xxU1 jHlBIJDs7AVM0dsxzTyIPf2Sz843WyHuBgkoCskxGfOwlkZzDX9rwcWRKal1wjy1w/25LsBY U50INandw3UbrS2I73VX8ARI8uOWZrW7uzRLf8EmuPhtSQ35ThmdoNSgGMP9EXwNgzi/i+5G hbX5KbrSLG9SITFJEcJA4tnwu3nqmBh7D7vbd5ln5X7rmqPdyjidt0zcSjvuaBA+nkmakA4A O+choWy5Ag0EToyH3AEQAL+LguHhcSDCL/IevdcvH/5/fzO2fmuuTxdGwrZZSm7l6/HD2Ira h6Wpa1LvVeRbnsRq8k6O8/i3wVapEoQPmNY3vjWfXaJb8R4vHcqgcxw9N9jhZa+mvGJk9+cI ilDyPzHRBBID4d/3oFKQCQ4Y2SIkO66znPhfBOS2f2AU7AtXHhVEyj6WsLK6boEMcj7j+w5a es2nZam0jhgoz+4DQem4uk8outrRlboGnZN7A2kCNuy39UeOp7BpvQ95IKcJCIeSoiJt2A4B NPQroqhW0zGn9Y9FJ9UiZ9YIeNPYbscUxxvrD+OU9Jv67hW0v3KfvoIKDwVKpO3MW6o+1teS Gt1KCSz+CvGJCvIxfCk7S5K5SBne7ZNKz7rkGXYIzlyr7ZoEgRHmqGmcK/sHTS4e6g2pQQrR USkspyqLZl5Uzmg7yI5oGBL0aHTzYdDkkOKMRXYnl7ivBeNtGcniGqlONLJxpbwec8j7hLRq pXFuepbtPqX/GefuK8rdo+ppEqpRJ50cJTegchTfWfSjn5/mG1B4Oz9OnOcBEeTLO729n0K9 BeTx1pmisD6P/fyrqZZTozDwVEi7Wo9AOaqWOhuTe8L0FlFIk6fc/yM0wzvDWP7sNrevEYHK V9rd+Yc/Jjt293J4uayrt6DNMmSkAw3nlBq3uK5d54J0FAsAUcsE/W2/ABEBAAGJAh8EGAEI AAkCGwwFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsSQyA/+Kx3eWtKyb/y35TjgtjT/Hrtw+aIpr1uK97LA ln1j5m7+lQ/jh0/rvSZjs+YQMYLqVGI8oaaF/u+qrokkU6pfrhVZ49D1BmmSTMBSYgnBDYqZ yZ+uzQnnDYt/mpo2OLbl9BhuifR5QXLp43cE1FIhyDT46wfse5tNZ+ll4m4HtXuTw4W3b4cP Hto10260Mki7hXbkDMZ+icBFDMkrrZyYHSnBhelzIM7XnY7A/XZdulfFcDXEcZhAFEv3ylJs xTnGwzDyP1VAdBFL3hpP1CqfP1Kti4hKcxXZYbIgTSsBjcYbPchw3ktUTU29I/nWKH5gmD+q wFizyhtt8Qhl6U67OdZ/XbRGBXs/7tlYJIGiGZyG7IQtDOX0PsVd+6WRcDdFqkpBwYkxU8gd iCeW+YTQ5d8mXXPT2dhFAeK2hCFa2+IdaXvH8ovjZpTMeKstHrWJUDaSqQ4GFT676DbDyqtm P6Ul9cjGVtXIs64FWqR9wrbwBH1GuIHhDmG9sN5AkyB9mxXaEG3uG4E6qQeedtIKC6p+ebAs aTGgztFWMJDC8LUznu7B0oyWxNVoE/RGt5mesOeAtqYr6Jtdh7unyk8BYP1y4e+SSMwvtwh+ 69tJwNhGYbOJrdX34tXNAKb6r/rFRjVJm+sPPs5ok7LddvV35o+Fho0LRNDsioDV3HytlhA= Message-ID: <6cfa2270-1ebc-3e60-b879-c561b7f3d8c4@acm.org> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 05:29:04 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <11879b35-f751-9183-b1df-f9f14e35d5e4@acm.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xRoEcXDNzbiHrWPYaCvDUV2XF93HdddeP" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] New test vector for stunbis X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:29:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --xRoEcXDNzbiHrWPYaCvDUV2XF93HdddeP Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Nn6lOPsRM7lWavuyDTGOGEFyfDVl8jyzo"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: "tram@ietf.org" Message-ID: <6cfa2270-1ebc-3e60-b879-c561b7f3d8c4@acm.org> Subject: Re: [tram] New test vector for stunbis References: <12edea4c-b376-f6f6-30c0-ee8670ee4bed@acm.org> <8A91D4E6-1507-46E9-97B7-919CD534372A@vidyo.com> <935c3056-e975-27aa-10b3-4a5673865913@acm.org> <11879b35-f751-9183-b1df-f9f14e35d5e4@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <11879b35-f751-9183-b1df-f9f14e35d5e4@acm.org> --Nn6lOPsRM7lWavuyDTGOGEFyfDVl8jyzo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another call for a verification on that test vector. Thanks. On 5/20/19 3:55 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > The username in the test vector below is the same before and after appl= ying UsernameCasePreserved, so it does not permit to detect some potentia= l bugs. Can someone verify the following? Thanks. >=20 >=20 > Username: "" and "MATRI= X" (without quote) respectively before and after UsernameCasePreserved [R= FC8265] processing >=20 > Password: "TheMtr" and "TheMatrIX" (without quo= tes) respectively before and after OpaqueString [RFC8265] processing >=20 > Nonce: "bMatJos2AAACf//499k954d6OL34oL9FSTvy64sA" (without quotes) >=20 > Realm: "example.org" (without quotes) >=20 >=20 > 00 01 00 9c Request type and message length > 21 12 a4 42 Magic cookie > 78 ad 34 33 } > c6 ad 72 c0 } Transaction ID > 29 da 41 2e } > 00 1e 00 20 USERHASH attribute header > 5c a4 f8 88 } > 36 8e 0d d9 } > 4b 26 c4 40 } > 8c b0 12 23 } Userhash value (32 bytes) > 85 34 b5 58 } > 99 5c 44 01 } > c1 7c 71 f6 } > 5f 68 f6 20 } > 00 15 00 29 NONCE attribute header > 6f 62 4d 61 } > 74 4a 6f 73 } > 32 41 41 41 } > 43 66 2f 2f } > 34 39 39 6b } Nonce value and padding (3 bytes) > 39 35 34 64 } > 36 4f 4c 33 } > 34 6f 4c 39 } > 46 53 54 76 } > 79 36 34 73 } > 41 00 00 00 } > 00 14 00 0b REALM attribute header > 65 78 61 6d } > 70 6c 65 2e } Realm value (11 bytes) and padding (1 byte) > 6f 72 67 00 } > 00 1c 00 20 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute header > bd 26 1e 38 } > 6e 83 7d 38 } > 3d 9f 43 91 } > 78 cf 16 36 } HMAC-SHA256 value > f5 71 9c 45 } > a7 2f 0f e6 } > 4b 8b d6 1b } > f9 08 79 99 } >=20 >=20 > On 4/11/19 6:02 AM, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> Thank you. >> >> On 4/10/19 9:33 AM, Jonathan Lennox wrote: >>> My unit test agrees. >>> >>>> On Apr 7, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Marc Petit-Huguenin = wrote: >>>> >>>> Now that IANA has allocated codepoints for stunbis, it is time to ca= lculate the final test vector in section B.1. It would be great is someo= ne could redo the calculations and assert that my results are correct. T= hanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> .... >>>> Username: "" and=20 >>>> "\xe3\x83\x9e\xe3\x83\x88\xe3\x83\xaa\xe3\x83\x83\xe3\x82\xaf\xe3\x8= 2\xb9" >>>> (without quote) respectively before and after UsernameCasePreserved >>>> [RFC8265] processing >>>> >>>> Password: "TheMtr" and "TheMatrIX" (without >>>> quotes) respectively before and after OpaqueString [RFC8265] process= ing >>>> >>>> Nonce: "bMatJos2AAACf//499k954d6OL34oL9FSTvy64sA" (without quotes) >>>> >>>> Realm: "example.org" (without quotes) >>>> >>>> 00 01 00 9c Request type and message length >>>> 21 12 a4 42 Magic cookie >>>> 78 ad 34 33 } >>>> c6 ad 72 c0 } Transaction ID >>>> 29 da 41 2e } >>>> 00 1e 00 20 USERHASH attribute header >>>> 4a 3c f3 8f } >>>> ef 69 92 bd } >>>> a9 52 c6 78 } >>>> 04 17 da 0f } Userhash value (32 bytes) >>>> 24 81 94 15 } >>>> 56 9e 60 b2 } >>>> 05 c4 6e 41 } >>>> 40 7f 17 04 } >>>> 00 15 00 29 NONCE attribute header >>>> 6f 62 4d 61 } >>>> 74 4a 6f 73 } >>>> 32 41 41 41 } >>>> 43 66 2f 2f } >>>> 34 39 39 6b } Nonce value and padding (3 bytes) >>>> 39 35 34 64 } >>>> 36 4f 4c 33 } >>>> 34 6f 4c 39 } >>>> 46 53 54 76 } >>>> 79 36 34 73 } >>>> 41 00 00 00 } >>>> 00 14 00 0b REALM attribute header >>>> 65 78 61 6d } >>>> 70 6c 65 2e } Realm value (11 bytes) and padding (1 byte) >>>> 6f 72 67 00 } >>>> 00 1c 00 20 MESSAGE-INTEGRITY-SHA256 attribute header >>>> e4 68 6c 8f } >>>> 0e de b5 90 } >>>> 13 e0 70 90 } >>>> 01 0a 93 ef } HMAC-SHA256 value >>>> cc bc cc 54 } >>>> 4c 0a 45 d9 } >>>> f8 30 aa 6d } >>>> 6f 73 5a 01 } >>>> .... >>>> >> >=20 --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --Nn6lOPsRM7lWavuyDTGOGEFyfDVl8jyzo-- --xRoEcXDNzbiHrWPYaCvDUV2XF93HdddeP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAlz+TRAACgkQKcRFldZq fsTG0A/+M7Jf4l2RLgZypCpcf20o7TjNL+EQB5Q7SjVMqoeMtWGttBb3TaTI5pov mJf8ROEqK1XByppzwNKjRTCcswYLI37iIWhJRsheAmJbCuXfRjd/hAi7OSXGBDbx DO/rrjICTz5e+jdyXmyr7nOWNY/NEQ+9CxKCcbjBHmBAz26eGVP2UAQwjo9amtv2 RhoflovCywbqddXpuhC6AIS4jxDFQ7OrAatixk4NGHfhYKjW0kVArWLdmKwa0H14 QrPhD/qcf7C+QgYJBln/m66rOsvDTD6LytH9kQ/nDIMek879xxGYtxrvsZN8dF9q dsofzEt8qK00ENn0huw3M4a8lJIlrd2In9Vz9yBQnrKcRLbQxSfPVALHfSub0PsH GxRJooWXb71xHjA0hwdivkQ50NwSNJeYIjUElOVqxJ7uwbirhTCV2fIjHTecvr0D 8bZAp49CZAyo6qDy/aFoZBssJuHOE7YoMbWIOeiS6BnNI3wcca2JB3amTCuoNgiH wDjVfnEGKJs7JyAuwTOoox8jJSuzsF0xsXryMRhPIXIFMNOsDFZKrSmFasj0qZg6 n0y+biJ6yWJ/cPoS7KnCLeJpvh7IvthHRm4Ydoz4dwAGgJT+OeA0bPXWSOiRznN/ MaGEysQ1oNi5h47UN7vLeuRwlu6TL51tykPUMZwC29c0bBgWOSI= =UmJ8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xRoEcXDNzbiHrWPYaCvDUV2XF93HdddeP-- From nobody Mon Jun 10 07:29:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01A2120020; 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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 10:29:00 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6A7BBCB4-76A9-44C5-99B3-CB2F94888D0F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 07:28:54 -0700 Cc: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Message-Id: <2C6B5776-CB95-4607-8D0C-07FDE2F6D515@strayalpha.com> References: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F2F8A3B-2887-4107-81E2-B4E222A4044E@strayalpha.com> To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:29:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6A7BBCB4-76A9-44C5-99B3-CB2F94888D0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Tiru, > On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy = wrote: >=20 >> On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >> wrote: >>=20 >>>>> The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for >>>>> UDP-to- >>>> UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to >>>> discuss direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 = only >>>> covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - = both >>>> current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when >>>> packets with such transport options are received (the input packet = to >>>> the translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the >>>> output packet) >>>=20 >>> TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams) >>> and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to avoid >>> fragmentation for RTP packets >>=20 >> Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, = it=E2=80=99d be fair to >> ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But = it isn=E2=80=99t >> indicated as the only use case. >=20 > The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions = signaled using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also used = with WebRTC, and WebRTC data channels also=20 > avoid IP fragmentation (see = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 = ).=20 The application protocols TURN is designed for or typically used for is = not relevant to my point above, unless you=E2=80=99re claiming that = these uses never use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, for = which some transport options are pervasively used by default). >=20 >>=20 >> Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern raised = above. RTP could >> still employ transport options. >=20 > I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents = (B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications discussing = transport options for translations. The fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to fail = to address it in this document. If anything, it makes it that much more = important to address. Joe= --Apple-Mail=_6A7BBCB4-76A9-44C5-99B3-CB2F94888D0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi, = Tiru,

On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, = Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

On = Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:

The = specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for
UDP-to-
UDP translation and IP = Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to
discuss = direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only
covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.

Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of = transport options - both
current for TCP and pending for = UDP. These are ignored both when
packets with such = transport options are received (the input packet to
the = translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the
output packet)

TURN = is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams)
and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to = avoid
fragmentation for RTP packets

Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use = case envisioned (at this point, it=E2=80=99d be fair to
ask = this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But it = isn=E2=80=99t
indicated as the only use case.

The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia = sessions signaled using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also = used with WebRTC, and WebRTC data channels also 
avoid IP fragmentation (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13). 




Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern = raised above. RTP could
still employ transport options.

I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User = Agents (B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications = discussing transport options for = translations.

The= fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to fail to = address it in this document. If anything, it makes it that much more = important to address.

Joe
= --Apple-Mail=_6A7BBCB4-76A9-44C5-99B3-CB2F94888D0F-- From nobody Mon Jun 10 22:19:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tram@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3454D120114; Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mcafee.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uI3C0McAL3Bt; Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DNVWSMAILOUT1.mcafee.com (dnvwsmailout1.mcafee.com [161.69.31.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDDBC120104; 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with mapi id 15.20.1987.010; Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:28:58 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Joe Touch CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 Thread-Index: AQHVG2SAeLoC/EGTikuPpeLam3Ivrw== Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:28:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com> <5F2F8A3B-2887-4107-81E2-B4E222A4044E@strayalpha.com> <2C6B5776-CB95-4607-8D0C-07FDE2F6D515@strayalpha.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.82] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6ceb8e80-07a3-4267-1014-08d6ee46d99f x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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Rml/rh7h/F+vvb/+HMC0FYLKjOVbXTFoyj6EYeSO5Dg0Wl5vVvRUf2dbPFuJDgHo/csY7eKvV7seI2RB5AAjp6mA70BRuShFvleiiHCvizv+UYQfxiYX8a2OJWKP0lvRxaxqfNTs1OU9CDrRaos0hWLFwP2S24hfEJePBS5hp3zA6BJ/IntBLuA8cxvHMnDcFKflgfa7ISiHefaCtpy7yYNYbXoErYA+ykiem77b6iafKFT2UzE8sa8mujVbu1kKpqtpMjfKYnrA5W8IfWnIZ2hSNT3Ax5Xj1MclpeAcvSCScaF+ic0dChTr1lJylC4OaC+SQEqXsbOAMwETcmz/kRrosgrFeKImHiehn/pikGG3Z8DPvOwXPgdPPQde8EGkLgaJx49S2jKrgsVcwTGnpC+QJj+Xd05z13Vd1NafRP8= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR0701MB252250AE4E7C158F985B0CC895ED0HE1PR0701MB2522_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6ceb8e80-07a3-4267-1014-08d6ee46d99f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Jun 2019 08:28:58.3193 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2921 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25 X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 08:29:06 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0701MB252250AE4E7C158F985B0CC895ED0HE1PR0701MB2522_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Joe and Tiru, May I hazard a guess why this have not arisen is that there are no transpor= t protocol options that makes sense to use end-to-end and are not protocol = specific. Thus, in UDP <-> TCP translations by TURN server there has so far= not been a need to carry any of them over. Joe, can you think of any that = would make sense? For UDP <-> UDP the experimental proposal for UDP options I don't see that = we can require this specification to have to specify that. I do think it is= an interesting question for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ts= vwg-udp-options/ if that should write more about what to do with the option= s when performing translation operations? When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is widely used over TURN relays when tho= se applications need extended functionality they have gone ahead and extend= ed RTP/RTCP rather than attempting to affect lower layers where other entit= ies than the end-points are required to be upgraded. Cheers Magnus On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote: Hi Joe, I meant the specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP and WebRTC) do not discu= ss setting any TCP option for application data (RTP, RTCP and WebRTC data c= hannels). Please note TCP is only used as fallback transport only if UDP t= raffic is blocked to the TURN server. TURN has been widely deployed in the field, and there was no discussion in = the WG to explicitly handle TCP options. Cheers, -Tiru From: Joe Touch Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@= ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-tu= rnbis-25 CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you = recognize the sender and know the content is safe. ________________________________ Hi, Tiru, On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > wrote: On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy > wrote: The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for UDP-to- UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to discuss direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12. Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when packets with such transport options are received (the input packet to the translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the output packet) TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams) and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to avoid fragmentation for RTP packets Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, it=92d be f= air to ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But it is= n=92t indicated as the only use case. The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions signaled usi= ng SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also used with WebRTC, and W= ebRTC data channels also avoid IP fragmentation (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-d= ata-channel-13). The application protocols TURN is designed for or typically used for is not= relevant to my point above, unless you=92re claiming that these uses never= use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, for which some transport= options are pervasively used by default). Regardless, though, this doesn=92t impact the concern raised above. RTP cou= ld still employ transport options. I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents (B2BUAs), S= IP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications discussing transport options f= or translations. The fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to fail to a= ddress it in this document. If anything, it makes it that much more importa= nt to address. Joe -- Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_HE1PR0701MB252250AE4E7C158F985B0CC895ED0HE1PR0701MB2522_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Joe and Tiru,

May I hazard a guess why this have not arise= n is that there are no transport protocol options that makes sense to use e= nd-to-end and are not protocol specific. Thus, in UDP <-> TCP transla= tions by TURN server there has so far not been a need to carry any of them over. Joe, can you think of any that woul= d make sense?

For UDP <-> UDP the experimental propo= sal for UDP options I don't see that we can require this specification to h= ave to specify that. I do think it is an interesting question for https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ if that = should write more about what to do with the options when performing transla= tion operations?

When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is widely= used over TURN relays when those applications need extended functionality = they have gone ahead and extended RTP/RTCP rather than attempting to affect= lower layers where other entities than the end-points are required to be upgraded.

Cheers

Magnus




On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red= dy wrote:

Hi Joe,

 

I meant the specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP a= nd WebRTC) do not discuss setting any TCP option for application data (RTP,= RTCP and WebRTC data channels).  Please note TCP is only used as fall= back transport only if UDP traffic is blocked to the TURN server.

TURN has been widely deployed in the field, and ther= e was no discussion in the WG to explicitly handle TCP options.

 

Cheers,

-Tiru

 

From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-= tram-turnbis-25

 

CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.<= /span><= /span>

Hi, Tiru,



On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red= dy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

 

On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Re= ddy
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:


The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP H= eader Fields for
UDP-to-

UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UD= P translation) to
discuss direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only
covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.

Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both
current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when
packets with such transport options are received (the input packet to
the translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the
output packet)


TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams)
and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to avoid
fragmentation for RTP packets


Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, it=92d be f= air to
ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But it is= n=92t
indicated as the only use case.


The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions signaled usi= ng SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also used with WebRTC, and W= ebRTC data channels also =
avoid IP fragmentation (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-= rtcweb-data-channel-13).=  

 

The application protocols TURN is designed for or ty= pically used for is not relevant to my point above, unless you=92re claimin= g that these uses never use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, f= or which some transport options are pervasively used by default).






Regardless, though, this doesn=92t impact the concern raised above. RTP cou= ld
still employ transport options.


I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents (B2BUAs), S= IP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications discussing transport options f= or translations.

 

The fact that others have this gap does not justify = continuing to fail to address it in this document. If anything, it makes it= that much more important to address.

 

Joe


-- =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------



--_000_HE1PR0701MB252250AE4E7C158F985B0CC895ED0HE1PR0701MB2522_--


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From: Joe Touch 
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Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi, all,

Here are my key points:

- whether you deal with TCP options or simply ignore those on incoming =
connections and use defaults on outgoing, the issue needs to be =
addressed - as well as its impact on your use.
- UDP options are not experimental; they=E2=80=99re standards-track; it =
could be mentioned here non-normatively as a possible workaround to the =
IP fragmentation issue.

Finally, IMO, assuming that RTP/RTCP can or should provide extended =
functions that might already be provided by existing TCP options or =
emerging UDP options seems like both wasted effort and a failed =
opportunity to tune the transport as it was intended.

Overall, the point is that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient - =
at a minimum, this doc needs to clearly state that this issue is being =
ignored and why, as well as addressing that issue in the security =
sections.

Finally, I=E2=80=99m quite bothered by the glib idea that transport =
packets can simply be translated into each other either between two TCP =
connections or between TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP =
doesn=E2=80=99t preserve message boundaries and TCP segments are not =
guaranteed to match application message boundaries.=20

I.e., the transport implications of this =E2=80=9Chack=E2=80=9D are =
inadequately addressed.

Joe

> On Jun 11, 2019, at 1:28 AM, Magnus Westerlund =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe and Tiru,=20
>=20
> May I hazard a guess why this have not arisen is that there are no =
transport protocol options that makes sense to use end-to-end and are =
not protocol specific. Thus, in UDP <-> TCP translations by TURN server =
there has so far not been a need to carry any of them over. Joe, can you =
think of any that would make sense?=20
>=20
> For UDP <-> UDP the experimental proposal for UDP options I don't see =
that we can require this specification to have to specify that. I do =
think it is an interesting question for =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ =
 if that =
should write more about what to do with the options when performing =
translation operations?=20
>=20
> When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is widely used over TURN relays =
when those applications need extended functionality they have gone ahead =
and extended RTP/RTCP rather than attempting to affect lower layers =
where other entities than the end-points are required to be upgraded.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
> Magnus
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
>> Hi Joe,
>> =20
>> I meant the specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP and WebRTC) do not =
discuss setting any TCP option for application data (RTP, RTCP and =
WebRTC data channels).  Please note TCP is only used as fallback =
transport only if UDP traffic is blocked to the TURN server.
>> TURN has been widely deployed in the field, and there was no =
discussion in the WG to explicitly handle TCP options.
>> =20
>> Cheers,
>> -Tiru
>> =20
>> From: Joe Touch  =20=

>> Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM
>> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy  =

>> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org ; =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org =
; ietf@ietf.org =
; tram@ietf.org 
>> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>> =20
>> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments =
unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>>=20
>> Hi, Tiru,
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
>> =20
>> On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>> > wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header Fields for
>> UDP-to-
>> UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP translation) to
>> discuss direct translations. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 =
 only
>> covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.
>>=20
>> Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both
>> current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when
>> packets with such transport options are received (the input packet to
>> the translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the
>> output packet)
>>=20
>> TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams)
>> and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to avoid
>> fragmentation for RTP packets
>>=20
>> Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, =
it=E2=80=99d be fair to
>> ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But =
it isn=E2=80=99t
>> indicated as the only use case.
>>=20
>> The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions =
signaled using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also used =
with WebRTC, and WebRTC data channels also=20
>> avoid IP fragmentation (see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 =
).=20
>> =20
>> The application protocols TURN is designed for or typically used for =
is not relevant to my point above, unless you=E2=80=99re claiming that =
these uses never use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, for =
which some transport options are pervasively used by default).
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern raised =
above. RTP could
>> still employ transport options.
>>=20
>> I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents =
(B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications discussing =
transport options for translations.
>> =20
>> The fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to =
fail to address it in this document. If anything, it makes it that much =
more important to address.
>> =20
>> Joe
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Magnus Westerlund=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com =

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art


--Apple-Mail=_DFB79A66-E38A-4159-BE57-239F251C9D53
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Hi, =
all,

Here are my key =
points:

- =
whether you deal with TCP options or simply ignore those on incoming =
connections and use defaults on outgoing, the issue needs to be =
addressed - as well as its impact on your use.
- =
UDP options are not experimental; they=E2=80=99re standards-track; it =
could be mentioned here non-normatively as a possible workaround to the =
IP fragmentation issue.

Finally, IMO, assuming that RTP/RTCP can or should provide =
extended functions that might already be provided by existing TCP =
options or emerging UDP options seems like both wasted effort and a =
failed opportunity to tune the transport as it was intended.

Overall, the point is =
that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient - at a minimum, this doc =
needs to clearly state that this issue is being ignored and why, as well =
as addressing that issue in the security sections.

Finally, I=E2=80=99m =
quite bothered by the glib idea that transport packets can simply be =
translated into each other either between two TCP connections or between =
TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP doesn=E2=80=99t preserve =
message boundaries and TCP segments are not guaranteed to match =
application message boundaries. 

I.e., the transport implications of =
this =E2=80=9Chack=E2=80=9D are inadequately addressed.

Joe

On Jun 11, 2019, at 1:28 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:








Hi Joe and Tiru, 









May I hazard a guess why this have not =
arisen is that there are no transport protocol options that makes sense =
to use end-to-end and are not protocol specific. Thus, in UDP <-> =
TCP translations by TURN server there has so far not
 been a need to carry any of them over. Joe, can you think of any that =
would make sense?










For UDP <-> UDP the experimental =
proposal for UDP options I don't see that we can require this =
specification to have to specify that. I do think it is an interesting =
question for

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ if =
that should write more about what to do with the options when performing =
translation operations?










When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is =
widely used over TURN relays when those applications need extended =
functionality they have gone ahead and extended RTP/RTCP rather than =
attempting to affect lower layers where other entities
 than the end-points are required to be upgraded.







Cheers







Magnus
























On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar =
Reddy wrote:








Hi Joe,
 
I meant the =
specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP and WebRTC) do not discuss =
setting any TCP option for application data (RTP, RTCP and WebRTC data =
channels).  Please note TCP is only used as fallback transport only =
if UDP traffic is blocked
 to the TURN server. 
TURN=
 has been widely deployed in the field, and there was no discussion in =
the WG to explicitly handle TCP options.

 
Cheers,
-Tiru
 






From: Joe Touch 
<touch@strayalpha.com> 

Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM

To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>

Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org;

draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; 
ietf@ietf.org; 
tram@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review =
of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25




 









CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open
 attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is =
safe.














Hi, Tiru,











On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, =
Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:


 






On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy

<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com> wrote:












The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP Header =
Fields for

UDP-to-


UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP =
translation) to

discuss direct translations. 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766 only

covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.



Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport options - both

current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are ignored both when

packets with such transport options are received (the input packet to

the translation) and whether / how they are used on transmit (the

output packet)




TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and video streams)

and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is to avoid

fragmentation for RTP packets




Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this point, it=E2=80=99=
d be fair to

ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be true). But it =
isn=E2=80=99t

indicated as the only use case.




The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions signaled =
using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also used with WebRTC, =
and WebRTC data channels also 

avoid IP fragmentation (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13). 








 




The application protocols TURN is =
designed for or typically used for is not relevant to my point above, =
unless you=E2=80=99re claiming that these uses never use transport =
options (which is doubtful for TCP, for which some transport options are
 pervasively used by default).






















Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern raised =
above. RTP could

still employ transport options.




I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents =
(B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications discussing =
transport options for translations.






 




The fact that others have this =
gap does not justify continuing to fail to address it in this document. =
If anything, it makes it that much more important to address.




 




Joe













--=20

Magnus Westerlund=20

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com
=
----------------------------------------------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Tsv-art =
mailing list
Tsv-art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art

=

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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi Joe,

First, some clarification ... You stated.

> Finally, I’m quite bothered by the glib idea that transport packets
> simply be translated into each other either between two TCP
> connections or between TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP
> doesn’t preserve message boundaries and TCP segments are not
> guaranteed to match application message boundaries.

There is no TCP-to-TCP relay case here. The side opposite the TURN
client is always UDP, even if the remote client is also connected to a
TURN server. The two TURN servers would use UDP in between, and the two
TURN servers would not even know that the other one is there.

Also, the spec does not relay "packets" between TCP and UDP. TURN does
not rely on TCP to maintain message boundaries. Instead, a TURN TCP
connection frames messages within the stream and that message framing
allows the TURN server to maintain message boundaries when sending the
messages within UDP datagrams.

> Overall, the point is that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient
> - at a minimum, this doc needs to clearly state that this issue is
> being ignored and why, as well as addressing that issue in the
> security sections.

Acknowledging that TCP options are being ignored when messages are
relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain what you're suggesting
relative to the security considerations though. Are you just pointing to
the fact that security built into TCP (e.g., tcp-ao, tcp-eno, tcp-crypt)
cannot be used to provide end-to-end security? In the same way that
(D)TLS cannot be used for this purpose either? If not that, what else do
you have in mind?

Regarding UDP options, I agree with Magnus that it's probably better to
rely on tsvwg to state something about UDP option relay makes more
sense, considering that the UDP options draft isn't published yet. It's
unclear what could be said meaningfully in the TURN draft. If you have a
suggestion that might help.

Thanks,
--Brandon


On 6/11/19 2:03 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
> Hi, all,
> 
> Here are my key points:
> 
> - whether you deal with TCP options or simply ignore those on incoming
> connections and use defaults on outgoing, the issue needs to be
> addressed - as well as its impact on your use.
> - UDP options are not experimental; they’re standards-track; it could be
> mentioned here non-normatively as a possible workaround to the IP
> fragmentation issue.
> 
> Finally, IMO, assuming that RTP/RTCP can or should provide extended
> functions that might already be provided by existing TCP options or
> emerging UDP options seems like both wasted effort and a failed
> opportunity to tune the transport as it was intended.
> 
> Overall, the point is that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient -
> at a minimum, this doc needs to clearly state that this issue is being
> ignored and why, as well as addressing that issue in the security sections.
> 
> Finally, I’m quite bothered by the glib idea that transport packets can
> simply be translated into each other either between two TCP connections
> or between TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP doesn’t preserve
> message boundaries and TCP segments are not guaranteed to match
> application message boundaries. 
> 
> I.e., the transport implications of this “hack” are inadequately addressed.
> 
> Joe
> 
>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 1:28 AM, Magnus Westerlund
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Joe and Tiru,
>>
>> May I hazard a guess why this have not arisen is that there are no
>> transport protocol options that makes sense to use end-to-end and are
>> not protocol specific. Thus, in UDP <-> TCP translations by TURN
>> server there has so far not been a need to carry any of them over.
>> Joe, can you think of any that would make sense?
>>
>> For UDP <-> UDP the experimental proposal for UDP options I don't see
>> that we can require this specification to have to specify that. I do
>> think it is an interesting question for
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ if that
>> should write more about what to do with the options when performing
>> translation operations?
>>
>> When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is widely used over TURN relays
>> when those applications need extended functionality they have gone
>> ahead and extended RTP/RTCP rather than attempting to affect lower
>> layers where other entities than the end-points are required to be
>> upgraded.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Joe,
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> I meant the specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP and WebRTC) do not
>>> discuss setting any TCP option for application data (RTP, RTCP and
>>> WebRTC data channels).  Please note TCP is only used as fallback
>>> transport only if UDP traffic is blocked to the TURN server.
>>>
>>> TURN has been widely deployed in the field, and there was no
>>> discussion in the WG to explicitly handle TCP options.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -Tiru
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> *From:* Joe Touch 
>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM
>>> *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
>>> *Cc:* tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org;
>>> ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of
>>> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments
>>> unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Hi, Tiru,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>>>     >>     > wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>         On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>>>         >>         > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>                     The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP
>>>                     Header Fields for
>>>                     UDP-to-
>>>
>>>                 UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP
>>>                 translation) to
>>>                 discuss direct translations.
>>>                 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766
>>>                 
>>>                 only
>>>                 covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.
>>>
>>>                 Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of transport
>>>                 options - both
>>>                 current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are
>>>                 ignored both when
>>>                 packets with such transport options are received (the
>>>                 input packet to
>>>                 the translation) and whether / how they are used on
>>>                 transmit (the
>>>                 output packet)
>>>
>>>
>>>             TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and
>>>             video streams)
>>>             and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is
>>>             to avoid
>>>             fragmentation for RTP packets
>>>
>>>
>>>         Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this
>>>         point, it’d be fair to
>>>         ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be
>>>         true). But it isn’t
>>>         indicated as the only use case.
>>>
>>>
>>>     The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions
>>>     signaled using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also
>>>     used with WebRTC, and WebRTC data channels also 
>>>     avoid IP fragmentation
>>>     (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 ). 
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> The application protocols TURN is designed for or typically used for
>>> is not relevant to my point above, unless you’re claiming that these
>>> uses never use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, for
>>> which some transport options are pervasively used by default).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Regardless, though, this doesn’t impact the concern raised
>>>         above. RTP could
>>>         still employ transport options.
>>>
>>>
>>>     I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents
>>>     (B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications
>>>     discussing transport options for translations.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> The fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to
>>> fail to address it in this document. If anything, it makes it that
>>> much more important to address.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Magnus Westerlund 
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tsv-art mailing list
>> Tsv-art@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> tram mailing list
> tram@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram
> 

-- 
Brandon Williams
Platform Engineering
Akamai Technologies Inc.


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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 15:04:52 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tram@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi, Brandon,

> On Jun 11, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Brandon Williams =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
>=20
> First, some clarification ... You stated.
>=20
>> Finally, I=E2=80=99m quite bothered by the glib idea that transport =
packets
>> simply be translated into each other either between two TCP
>> connections or between TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP
>> doesn=E2=80=99t preserve message boundaries and TCP segments are not
>> guaranteed to match application message boundaries.
>=20
> There is no TCP-to-TCP relay case here. The side opposite the TURN
> client is always UDP, even if the remote client is also connected to a
> TURN server. The two TURN servers would use UDP in between, and the =
two
> TURN servers would not even know that the other one is there.
>=20
> Also, the spec does not relay "packets" between TCP and UDP. TURN does
> not rely on TCP to maintain message boundaries. Instead, a TURN TCP
> connection frames messages within the stream and that message framing
> allows the TURN server to maintain message boundaries when sending the
> messages within UDP datagrams.

The description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which seems dangerous (even as a description). This is especially true =
for the notion that each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP =
frame directly.

The description above in this email implies you=E2=80=99re just =
receiving =E2=80=9Capplication=E2=80=9D messages on one transport and =
emitting them on another. That makes a lot more sense, but it=E2=80=99s =
inconsistent with the description in this doc.

>=20
>> Overall, the point is that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient
>> - at a minimum, this doc needs to clearly state that this issue is
>> being ignored and why, as well as addressing that issue in the
>> security sections.
>=20
> Acknowledging that TCP options are being ignored when messages are
> relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain what you're suggesting
> relative to the security considerations though. Are you just pointing =
to
> the fact that security built into TCP (e.g., tcp-ao, tcp-eno, =
tcp-crypt)
> cannot be used to provide end-to-end security? In the same way that
> (D)TLS cannot be used for this purpose either? If not that, what else =
do
> you have in mind?

OK, so given you=E2=80=99re just terminating the connection, you need to =
talk about the implications of doing so, and yes, the kinds of issues =
above are relevant. If you were opening your own TCP connection, it =
would be relevant to discuss how you decide what options to enable as =
well and whether those options are determined based on the options of =
the other TCP connection (but you=E2=80=99re not doing that).

I.e., my suggestion would be to make the description of the conversion =
process match this email=E2=80=99s explanation, i.e., as an application =
relay rather than as direct packet-to-packet conversion, including:

- adjust your description of how you relay messages to talk about things =
at the =E2=80=9Capplication=E2=80=9D layer
	when you talk about IPv4 or IPv6 properties, the issue is about =
how you configure those as endpoints on the translator, not how *each =
packet* is translated
	NOTE - your document is incorrect regarding TTL; only routers =
drop packets with hopcounts/TTLs of zero. A host MUST NOT (per RFC =
1122/8200)

- address how your endpoint deals with TCP options that might have =
impact, including TCP multiparty, AO, ENO, MD5, fastopen, and user =
timeout

>=20
> Regarding UDP options, I agree with Magnus that it's probably better =
to
> rely on tsvwg to state something about UDP option relay makes more
> sense, considering that the UDP options draft isn't published yet. =
It's
> unclear what could be said meaningfully in the TURN draft. If you have =
a
> suggestion that might help.

The intro to Sec 2.7 could be as follows (clarifying the way in which =
the IP frag avoidance is introduced as well):

   For reasons described in [Frag-Harmful], applications, especially
   those sending large volumes of data, should try hard to avoid having
   their packets fragmented.  Applications using TCP can more or less
   ignore this issue because fragmentation avoidance is now a standard
   part of TCP, but applications using UDP (and thus any application
   using this version of TURN) need to avoid IP fragmentation by sending
   sufficiently small messages or use UDP fragmentation =
[draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options].

   The application running on the client and the peer can take one of
   two approaches to avoid IP fragmentation until UDP fragmentation =
support is available. The first
   uses messages that are limited to a predetermined fixed maximum and =
the second
   relies on network feedback to adapt that maximum.

>=20
> Thanks,
> --Brandon
>=20
>=20
> On 6/11/19 2:03 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>> Hi, all,
>>=20
>> Here are my key points:
>>=20
>> - whether you deal with TCP options or simply ignore those on =
incoming
>> connections and use defaults on outgoing, the issue needs to be
>> addressed - as well as its impact on your use.
>> - UDP options are not experimental; they=E2=80=99re standards-track; =
it could be
>> mentioned here non-normatively as a possible workaround to the IP
>> fragmentation issue.
>>=20
>> Finally, IMO, assuming that RTP/RTCP can or should provide extended
>> functions that might already be provided by existing TCP options or
>> emerging UDP options seems like both wasted effort and a failed
>> opportunity to tune the transport as it was intended.
>>=20
>> Overall, the point is that simply ignoring this issue is insufficient =
-
>> at a minimum, this doc needs to clearly state that this issue is =
being
>> ignored and why, as well as addressing that issue in the security =
sections.
>>=20
>> Finally, I=E2=80=99m quite bothered by the glib idea that transport =
packets can
>> simply be translated into each other either between two TCP =
connections
>> or between TCP and UDP. The notion is simply false; TCP doesn=E2=80=99t=
 preserve
>> message boundaries and TCP segments are not guaranteed to match
>> application message boundaries.=20
>>=20
>> I.e., the transport implications of this =E2=80=9Chack=E2=80=9D are =
inadequately addressed.
>>=20
>> Joe
>>=20
>>> On Jun 11, 2019, at 1:28 AM, Magnus Westerlund
>>> >> > wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Joe and Tiru,
>>>=20
>>> May I hazard a guess why this have not arisen is that there are no
>>> transport protocol options that makes sense to use end-to-end and =
are
>>> not protocol specific. Thus, in UDP <-> TCP translations by TURN
>>> server there has so far not been a need to carry any of them over.
>>> Joe, can you think of any that would make sense?
>>>=20
>>> For UDP <-> UDP the experimental proposal for UDP options I don't =
see
>>> that we can require this specification to have to specify that. I do
>>> think it is an interesting question for
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options/ if =
that
>>> should write more about what to do with the options when performing
>>> translation operations?
>>>=20
>>> When it comes to RTP and RTCP that is widely used over TURN relays
>>> when those applications need extended functionality they have gone
>>> ahead and extended RTP/RTCP rather than attempting to affect lower
>>> layers where other entities than the end-points are required to be
>>> upgraded.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>>=20
>>> Magnus
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 2019-06-11 07:20, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I meant the specifications that use TURN (ICE, SIP and WebRTC) do =
not
>>>> discuss setting any TCP option for application data (RTP, RTCP and
>>>> WebRTC data channels).  Please note TCP is only used as fallback
>>>> transport only if UDP traffic is blocked to the TURN server.
>>>>=20
>>>> TURN has been widely deployed in the field, and there was no
>>>> discussion in the WG to explicitly handle TCP options.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>=20
>>>> -Tiru
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> *From:* Joe Touch 
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, June 10, 2019 7:59 PM
>>>> *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =

>>>> *Cc:* tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org;
>>>> ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of
>>>> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments
>>>> unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>>>>=20
>>>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi, Tiru,
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>    On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>>>>    >>>    > wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>    =20
>>>>=20
>>>>        On Jun 7, 2019, at 4:39 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>>>>        >>>        > wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>                    The specification has two sections 14 and 15 (IP
>>>>                    Header Fields for
>>>>                    UDP-to-
>>>>=20
>>>>                UDP translation and IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP
>>>>                translation) to
>>>>                discuss direct translations.
>>>>                https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5766
>>>>                =

>>>>                only
>>>>                covered UDP-to- UDP translation in Section 12.
>>>>=20
>>>>                Yes, but both sections ignore the impact of =
transport
>>>>                options - both
>>>>                current for TCP and pending for UDP. These are
>>>>                ignored both when
>>>>                packets with such transport options are received =
(the
>>>>                input packet to
>>>>                the translation) and whether / how they are used on
>>>>                transmit (the
>>>>                output packet)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>            TURN is used to relay real-time data (e.g. audio and
>>>>            video streams)
>>>>            and the approach taken by VOIP related specifications is
>>>>            to avoid
>>>>            fragmentation for RTP packets
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>        Sec 2.8 mentions RTP as one use case envisioned (at this
>>>>        point, it=E2=80=99d be fair to
>>>>        ask this revision to clarify whether that turned out to be
>>>>        true). But it isn=E2=80=99t
>>>>        indicated as the only use case.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>    The draft says TURN is invented to support multimedia sessions
>>>>    signaled using SIP and is typically used with ICE. TURN is also
>>>>    used with WebRTC, and WebRTC data channels also=20
>>>>    avoid IP fragmentation
>>>>    (see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13 =
).=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The application protocols TURN is designed for or typically used =
for
>>>> is not relevant to my point above, unless you=E2=80=99re claiming =
that these
>>>> uses never use transport options (which is doubtful for TCP, for
>>>> which some transport options are pervasively used by default).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>        Regardless, though, this doesn=E2=80=99t impact the concern =
raised
>>>>        above. RTP could
>>>>        still employ transport options.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>    I checked again and don't see any RTP, Back-to-Back User Agents
>>>>    (B2BUAs), SIP proxies and WebRTC gateway specifications
>>>>    discussing transport options for translations.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The fact that others have this gap does not justify continuing to
>>>> fail to address it in this document. If anything, it makes it that
>>>> much more important to address.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Joe
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>>=20
>>> Magnus Westerlund=20
>>>=20
>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
>>> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
>>> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tsv-art mailing list
>>> Tsv-art@ietf.org 
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> tram mailing list
>> tram@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Brandon Williams
> Platform Engineering
> Akamai Technologies Inc.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art


From nobody Thu Jun 13 01:43:56 2019
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch , Brandon Williams 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 07:17:02 -0700
Cc: Brandon Williams , Magnus Westerlund , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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--Apple-Mail=_E1F97CEF-2D4D-483D-A730-258717B3D768
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Hi, Tiru,

> On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
>> ...
>> The description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which
>> seems dangerous (even as a description). This is especially true for =
the
>> notion that each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP frame =
directly.
>=20
> The TURN specification only discusses packet-to-packet translation for =
UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.

Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the received =
messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can you =
explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection, not on a =
per packet basis

=E2=80=A6.
>>> Acknowledging that TCP options are being ignored when messages are
>>> relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain what you're suggesting
>>> relative to the security considerations though. Are you just =
pointing
>>> to the fact that security built into TCP (e.g., tcp-ao, tcp-eno,
>>> tcp-crypt) cannot be used to provide end-to-end security? In the =
same
>>> way that (D)TLS cannot be used for this purpose either? If not that,
>>> what else do you have in mind?
>>=20
>> OK, so given you=E2=80=99re just terminating the connection, you need =
to talk about
>> the implications of doing so, and yes, the kinds of issues above are =
relevant.
>> If you were opening your own TCP connection, it would be relevant to
>> discuss how you decide what options to enable as well and whether =
those
>> options are determined based on the options of the other TCP =
connection
>> (but you=E2=80=99re not doing that).
>=20
> No, TURN server does not establish TCP connection to the peer. TURN =
only supports UDP between the server and the peer.=20
> Please see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-2.1 =
. =20=


Yes, we agree (as I said, =E2=80=9Cif you were=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Cb..ut you=E2=80=99re not.=E2=80=9D).

>=20
>>=20
>> I.e., my suggestion would be to make the description of the =
conversion
>> process match this email=E2=80=99s explanation, i.e., as an =
application relay rather
>> than as direct packet-to-packet conversion, including:
>>=20
>> - adjust your description of how you relay messages to talk about =
things at
>> the =E2=80=9Capplication=E2=80=9D layer
>> 	when you talk about IPv4 or IPv6 properties, the issue is about =
how
>> you configure those as endpoints on the translator, not how *each =
packet* is
>> translated
>> 	NOTE - your document is incorrect regarding TTL; only routers =
drop
>> packets with hopcounts/TTLs of zero. A host MUST NOT (per RFC =
1122/8200)
>=20
> You are right will remove TTL text for TCP-to-UDP relay but not for =
UDP-to-UDP relay. RFC1122 says, the intent is that TTL expiration will =
cause a datagram
> to be discarded by a gateway but not by the destination
> host; however, hosts that act as gateways by forwarding
> datagrams must follow the gateway rules for TTL.

This is correct behavior for IP-to-IP translation (sec 13), but not =
UDP-to-UDP (sec 14). The latter is not the function of a gateway, but =
rather the function of an app-layer proxy.

>=20
>>=20
>> - address how your endpoint deals with TCP options that might have =
impact,
>> including TCP multiparty, AO, ENO, MD5, fastopen, and user timeout
>=20
> The TURN server is not acting as a TCP-to-TCP relay and I don't =
understand the need to discuss these options.

You need to explain the impact of not being able to carry these options =
or their behavior across the UDP part of a TCP-to-UDP relay.

Joe=

--Apple-Mail=_E1F97CEF-2D4D-483D-A730-258717B3D768
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Hi, =
Tiru,

On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, =
Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

...
The description in the document implies packet-to-packet =
translation, which
seems dangerous (even as a =
description). This is especially true for the
notion that =
each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP frame directly.

The TURN specification only discusses packet-to-packet =
translation for UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.

Sec 15 =
talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the received messages. If =
this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can you explain how =
this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection, not on a per packet =
basis

=E2=80=A6.
Acknowledging that TCP options are being ignored when =
messages are
relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain =
what you're suggesting
relative to the security =
considerations though. Are you just pointing
to the fact =
that security built into TCP (e.g., tcp-ao, tcp-eno,
tcp-crypt) cannot be used to provide end-to-end security? In =
the same
way that (D)TLS cannot be used for this purpose =
either? If not that,
what else do you have in mind?

OK, so given you=E2=80=99re just =
terminating the connection, you need to talk about
the =
implications of doing so, and yes, the kinds of issues above are =
relevant.
If you were opening your own TCP connection, it =
would be relevant to
discuss how you decide what options =
to enable as well and whether those
options are determined =
based on the options of the other TCP connection
(but =
you=E2=80=99re not doing that).

No, TURN server does not =
establish TCP connection to the peer. TURN only supports UDP between the =
server and the peer. 
Please see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-=
2.1. =
 

Yes, =
we agree (as I said, =E2=80=9Cif you were=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cb=
..ut you=E2=80=99re not.=E2=80=9D).



I.e., my suggestion =
would be to make the description of the conversion
process =
match this email=E2=80=99s explanation, i.e., as an application relay =
rather
than as direct packet-to-packet conversion, =
including:

- adjust your description of how =
you relay messages to talk about things at
the =
=E2=80=9Capplication=E2=80=9D layer
	when you =
talk about IPv4 or IPv6 properties, the issue is about how
you configure those as endpoints on the translator, not how =
*each packet* is
translated
	NOTE - =
your document is incorrect regarding TTL; only routers drop
packets with hopcounts/TTLs of zero. A host MUST NOT (per RFC =
1122/8200)

You are right will remove TTL text for TCP-to-UDP relay but =
not for UDP-to-UDP relay. RFC1122 says, the intent is that TTL =
expiration will cause a datagram
to be discarded by a gateway but not by the =
destination
host; =
however, hosts that act as gateways by forwarding
datagrams must follow the =
gateway rules for TTL.

This is correct behavior for IP-to-IP translation =
(sec 13), but not UDP-to-UDP (sec 14). The latter is not the function of =
a gateway, but rather the function of an app-layer proxy.



- address how your endpoint deals with TCP options that might =
have impact,
including TCP multiparty, AO, ENO, MD5, =
fastopen, and user timeout

The TURN server is not acting as =
a TCP-to-TCP relay and I don't understand the need to discuss these =
options.

You =
need to explain the impact of not being able to carry these options or =
their behavior across the UDP part of a TCP-to-UDP =
relay.

Joe
=

--Apple-Mail=_E1F97CEF-2D4D-483D-A730-258717B3D768--


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Brandon Williams , Magnus Westerlund , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From nobody Sat Jun 15 11:52:25 2019
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To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
Cc: Brandon Williams , Magnus Westerlund , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" 
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 11:52:11 -0700
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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On 6/14/2019 12:49 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
>
> Hi Jon,
>
>  
>
> Please see inline [TR]
>
>  
>
> *From:* Joe Touch 
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:47 PM
> *To:* Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
> *Cc:* Brandon Williams ; Magnus
> Westerlund ;
> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org;
> tsv-art@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of
> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
>
>  
>
> *CAUTION*:External email. Do not click links or open attachments
> unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi, Tiru,
>
>
>
>     On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
>          > wrote:
>
>      
>
>         ...
>         The description in the document implies packet-to-packet
>         translation, which
>         seems dangerous (even as a description). This is especially
>         true for the
>         notion that each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP
>         frame directly.
>
>
>     The TURN specification only discusses packet-to-packet translation
>     for UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.
>
>  
>
> Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the received
> messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can
> you explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection,
> not on a per packet basis
>
>  
>
> [TR] It is not based on packet-to-packet translation. TURN client can
> set the DON’T-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message to tell the TURN
> server to set the DF bit in the resulting UDP datagram sent to the
> peer. Please see
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15
>
The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a TCP
connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of IP
fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a per-message
basis for UDP, but not for TCP.



>  
>
> ….
>
>             Acknowledging that TCP options are being ignored when
>             messages are
>             relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain what you're
>             suggesting
>             relative to the security considerations though. Are you
>             just pointing
>             to the fact that security built into TCP (e.g., tcp-ao,
>             tcp-eno,
>             tcp-crypt) cannot be used to provide end-to-end security?
>             In the same
>             way that (D)TLS cannot be used for this purpose either? If
>             not that,
>             what else do you have in mind?
>
>
>         OK, so given you’re just terminating the connection, you need
>         to talk about
>         the implications of doing so, and yes, the kinds of issues
>         above are relevant.
>         If you were opening your own TCP connection, it would be
>         relevant to
>         discuss how you decide what options to enable as well and
>         whether those
>         options are determined based on the options of the other TCP
>         connection
>         (but you’re not doing that).
>
>
>     No, TURN server does not establish TCP connection to the peer.
>     TURN only supports UDP between the server and the peer. 
>     Please
>     see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-2.1.
>      
>
>  
>
> Yes, we agree (as I said, “if you were…” and “b..ut you’re not.”).
>
>  
>
> [TR] Glad to see we are making progress J
>
>
>
>         I.e., my suggestion would be to make the description of the
>         conversion
>         process match this email’s explanation, i.e., as an
>         application relay rather
>         than as direct packet-to-packet conversion, including:
>
>         - adjust your description of how you relay messages to talk
>         about things at
>         the “application” layer
>                       when you talk about IPv4 or IPv6 properties, the
>         issue is about how
>         you configure those as endpoints on the translator, not how
>         *each packet* is
>         translated
>                       NOTE - your document is incorrect regarding TTL;
>         only routers drop
>         packets with hopcounts/TTLs of zero. A host MUST NOT (per RFC
>         1122/8200)
>
>
>     You are right will remove TTL text for TCP-to-UDP relay but not
>     for UDP-to-UDP relay. RFC1122 says, the intent is that TTL
>     expiration will cause a datagram
>     to be discarded by a gateway but not by the destination
>     host; however, hosts that act as gateways by forwarding
>     datagrams must follow the gateway rules for TTL.
>
>  
>
> This is correct behavior for IP-to-IP translation (sec 13), but not
> UDP-to-UDP (sec 14). The latter is not the function of a gateway, but
> rather the function of an app-layer proxy.
>
>  
>
> [TR] Got it, will update draft.
>
>
>         - address how your endpoint deals with TCP options that might
>         have impact,
>         including TCP multiparty, AO, ENO, MD5, fastopen, and user timeout
>
>
>     The TURN server is not acting as a TCP-to-TCP relay and I don't
>     understand the need to discuss these options.
>
>  
>
> You need to explain the impact of not being able to carry these
> options or their behavior across the UDP part of a TCP-to-UDP relay.
>
>  
>
> [TR] TCP multi-path is not supported by this specification because TCP
> multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols for media and
> non-media data. If the TCP connection uses TCP-AO, the client should
> secure application data (e.g. SRTP) to provide confidentially, message
> authentication and replay protection to protect the application data
> relayed from the server to the peer (Fake data is already discussed in
> Section 20.1.3).  I don’t see a need to discuss TCP fast open (UDP is
> 0-RTT), and MD5 is replaced by TCP-AO. TCP user-timeout equivalent for
> application data (RTP) is RTCP.
>
You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response above.

Joe


>  
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Tiru
>
>  
>
> Joe
>

--------------3686C164AD5DD70CCA2A7431
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    


    

    
On 6/14/2019 12:49 AM, Konda,
      Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

    

    

      
      
      
      
      

        
Hi Jon,

        
 

        
Please see inline [TR]

        
 

        

          

            

              
From: Joe Touch
                <touch@strayalpha.com> 

                Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 7:47 PM

                To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
                <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>

                Cc: Brandon Williams
                <brandon.williams@akamai.com>; Magnus Westerlund
                <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>;
                draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org;
                tram@ietf.org; tsv-art@ietf.org

                Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call
                review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25

            

          

          
 

          

            

              
                

                  
                    
CAUTION: External
                        email. Do not click links or open attachments
                        unless you recognize the sender and know the
                        content is safe.

                  		
                

              
            

            

              

            

          

          
Hi, Tiru,

          

            

              


                

                

              

                

                  
On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM,
                    Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
                    wrote:

                

                
 

                

                  

                    
...

                        The description in the document implies
                        packet-to-packet translation, which

                        seems dangerous (even as a description). This is
                        especially true for the

                        notion that each UDP packet is translated into
                        exactly one TCP frame directly.

                  

                  


                      The TURN specification only discusses
                      packet-to-packet translation for UDP-to-UDP relay
                      and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.

                

              

              

                
 

              

              

                
Sec 15 talks about setting IP
                  fragmentation based on the received messages. If this
                  is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can you
                  explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a
                  connection, not on a per packet basis

                
 

                
[TR] It is not based on
                  packet-to-packet translation. TURN client can set the
                  DON’T-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message to tell
                  the TURN server to set the DF bit in the resulting UDP
                  datagram sent to the peer. Please see
                  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15

              

            

          

        

      

    

    
The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a TCP
      connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of
      IP fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a
      per-message basis for UDP, but not for TCP. 

    

    


    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            

              

                

                  

              

              

                
 

              

              

                
….

              

              

                

                  

                    

                      
Acknowledging
                          that TCP options are being ignored when
                          messages are

                          relayed could be OK. I'm not entirely certain
                          what you're suggesting

                          relative to the security considerations
                          though. Are you just pointing

                          to the fact that security built into TCP
                          (e.g., tcp-ao, tcp-eno,

                          tcp-crypt) cannot be used to provide
                          end-to-end security? In the same

                          way that (D)TLS cannot be used for this
                          purpose either? If not that,

                          what else do you have in mind?

                    

                    


                        OK, so given you’re just terminating the
                        connection, you need to talk about

                        the implications of doing so, and yes, the kinds
                        of issues above are relevant.

                        If you were opening your own TCP connection, it
                        would be relevant to

                        discuss how you decide what options to enable as
                        well and whether those

                        options are determined based on the options of
                        the other TCP connection

                        (but you’re not doing that).

                  

                  


                      No, TURN server does not establish TCP connection
                      to the peer. TURN only supports UDP between the
                      server and the peer. 

                      Please see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-2.1.  

                

              

              

                
 

              

              

                
Yes, we agree (as I said, “if you
                  were…” and “b..ut you’re not.”).

                
 

                
[TR] Glad to see we are making
                  progress 
                    J

              

              

                

                  

                    


                      

                        I.e., my suggestion would be to make the
                        description of the conversion

                        process match this email’s explanation, i.e., as
                        an application relay rather

                        than as direct packet-to-packet conversion,
                        including:

                        

                        - adjust your description of how you relay
                        messages to talk about things at

                        the “application” layer

                                      when
                        you talk about IPv4 or IPv6 properties, the
                        issue is about how

                        you configure those as endpoints on the
                        translator, not how *each packet* is

                        translated

                                      NOTE
                        - your document is incorrect regarding TTL; only
                        routers drop

                        packets with hopcounts/TTLs of zero. A host MUST
                        NOT (per RFC 1122/8200)

                  

                  


                      You are right will remove TTL text for TCP-to-UDP
                      relay but not for UDP-to-UDP relay. RFC1122 says,
                      the intent is that TTL expiration will cause a
                      datagram

                      to be discarded by a gateway but not by the
                      destination

                      host; however, hosts that act as gateways by
                      forwarding

                      datagrams must follow the gateway rules for TTL.

                

              

              

                
 

              

              

                
This is correct behavior for
                  IP-to-IP translation (sec 13), but not UDP-to-UDP (sec
                  14). The latter is not the function of a gateway, but
                  rather the function of an app-layer proxy.

              

              
 

              
[TR] Got it, will update draft.

              

                

                  

                    


                        - address how your endpoint deals with TCP
                        options that might have impact,

                        including TCP multiparty, AO, ENO, MD5,
                        fastopen, and user timeout

                  

                  


                      The TURN server is not acting as a TCP-to-TCP
                      relay and I don't understand the need to discuss
                      these options.

                

              

              

                
 

              

              

                
You need to explain the impact of
                  not being able to carry these options or their
                  behavior across the UDP part of a TCP-to-UDP relay.

                
 

                
[TR] TCP multi-path is not
                  supported by this specification because TCP multi-path
                  is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols for media
                  and non-media data. If the TCP connection uses TCP-AO,
                  the client should secure application data (e.g. SRTP)
                  to provide confidentially, message authentication and
                  replay protection to protect the application data
                  relayed from the server to the peer (Fake data is
                  already discussed in Section 20.1.3).  I don’t see a
                  need to discuss TCP fast open (UDP is 0-RTT), and MD5
                  is replaced by TCP-AO. TCP user-timeout equivalent for
                  application data (RTP) is RTCP.
                

              

            

          

        

      

    

    
You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the
      response above.

    
Joe

    

    


    

    

      

        

          

            

              

                

                
 

                
Cheers,

                
-Tiru

              

            

            

              
 

            

            
Joe

          

        

      

    

  


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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 07:18:11 -0700
Cc: Brandon Williams , Magnus Westerlund , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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> On Jun 17, 2019, at 3:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> Please see inline [TR1]
>  =E2=80=A6

> On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
> =20
> ...
> The description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which
> seems dangerous (even as a description). This is especially true for =
the
> notion that each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP frame =
directly.
>=20
> The TURN specification only discusses packet-to-packet translation for =
UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.
> =20
> Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the received =
messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can you =
explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection, not on a =
per packet basis
> =20
> [TR] It is not based on packet-to-packet translation. TURN client can =
set the DON=E2=80=99T-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message to tell the =
TURN server to set the DF bit in the resulting UDP datagram sent to the =
peer. Please =
seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15 =

> The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a TCP =
connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of IP =
fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a per-message =
basis for UDP, but not for TCP.
>=20
> [TR1] Section 15 discusses both IP fragmentation and IP options, see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15 =
It =
does, but incorrectly implies these are per packet decisions. As with =
that section=E2=80=99s description of DSCP, the descriptions of IP =
fragmentation and IP options need to indicate these are either not under =
user control (IP fragmentation) or per-connection (IP options) for TCP.

Again, despite claims of intent, this document=E2=80=99s description of =
all these translations inappropriately implies they are per-packet =
decisions throughout. This should further be corrected with some =
explicit text indicating otherwise - as has been noted throughout this =
thread.

Joe


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On Jun 17, 2019, at 3:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi Joe,
 
Please see =
inline [TR1]
 =E2=80=A6

On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:
 
...
The =
description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which
seems dangerous (even as a description). This is =
especially true for the
notion that each UDP packet is =
translated into exactly one TCP frame directly.

The TURN specification only =
discusses packet-to-packet translation for UDP-to-UDP relay and not for =
TCP-to-UDP relay.
 
Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the =
received messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, =
can you explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection, =
not on a per packet basis
 
[TR] It is not based on packet-to-packet translation. TURN =
client can set the DON=E2=80=99T-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message =
to tell the TURN server to set the DF bit in the resulting UDP datagram =
sent to the peer. Please seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-=
15
The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a =
TCP connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of =
IP fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a =
per-message basis for UDP, but not for TCP.
[TR1] Section 15 discusses both IP fragmentation and IP =
options, see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-=
15
It does, but incorrectly =
implies these are per packet decisions. As with that section=E2=80=99s =
description of DSCP, the descriptions of IP fragmentation and IP options =
need to indicate these are either not under user control (IP =
fragmentation) or per-connection (IP options) for TCP.

Again, despite claims of intent, this document=E2=80=
=99s description of all these translations inappropriately implies they =
are per-packet decisions throughout. This should further be corrected =
with some explicit text indicating otherwise - as has been noted =
throughout this thread.

Joe

=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Joe Touch 
CC: "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 11:27:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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--_000_HE1PR0701MB2522DCB2459055A6319C439B95EA0HE1PR0701MB2522_
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On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response above=
.

[TR1] Okay, will add the following lines:

TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN because T=
CP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols [RFC7478] for me=
dia and non-media data. If the TCP connection between the TURN client and s=
erver uses TCP-AO [RFC5925], the client must secure application data (e.g. =
using SRTP) to provide confidentially, message authentication and replay pr=
otection to protect the application data relayed from the server to the pee=
r using UDP.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.  Unlike UDP=
, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does not support 0-RTT =
session resumption. The TCP user timeout [RFC5482] equivalent for applicati=
on data relayed by TURN is the use of RTP control protocol (RTCP). As a rem=
inder,  RTCP is a fundamental and integral part of RTP.


Sorry, I find this very confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if that=
 is using a TCP connection, then there are no issues with using either TCP-=
MP or TCP-AO options on that leg. They will have no impact on the TURN mess=
ages carried inside the TCP connection or how its outgoing IP/UDP packet. S=
o from my perspective there are no necessity to discuss these as not suppor=
ted.

What is discussed in this document are the options for the IP/UDP packet be=
ing sent or received by the turn server to the peer. Those IP/UDP Fields th=
at can be controlled and have meaning are discussed here. Like the DSCP, wh=
ere TCP will force the use of a single one, when UDP to UDP can support man=
y as the field value is taken from the packet on the client to server leg, =
rather than an internal TURN message field.

I guess the issue here is that there is a lack of requirement making clear =
that for a number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the server to peer=
 leg that needs to handling rules for the client to server transport.

I think what Section 14 and 15 talks about should be labeled relaying and n=
ot translation. And thus focus on how one avoid information or intent loss =
in the relay process. I understand why section 13 is called translation, bu=
t when we get down to it, it is the same here, but a focus on how the relay=
 process maintain information of the IP layer, especially in the face of ad=
dress family differences.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--_000_HE1PR0701MB2522DCB2459055A6319C439B95EA0HE1PR0701MB2522_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red=
dy wrote:






























You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response ab=
ove.


[TR1] Okay, will add the following lines:


TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN becaus=
e TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols [RFC7478] for=
 media and non-media data. If the TCP connection between the TURN client an=
d server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925],
 the client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide confi=
dentially, message authentication and replay protection to protect the appl=
ication data relayed from the server to the peer using UDP.  Note that=
 TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option. 
 Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does not sup=
port 0-RTT session resumption. The TCP user timeout [RFC5482] equivalent fo=
r application data relayed by TURN is the use of RTP control protocol (RTCP=
). As a reminder,  RTCP is a fundamental
 and integral part of RTP.













Sorry, I find this very confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if t=
hat is using a TCP connection, then there are no issues with using either T=
CP-MP or TCP-AO options on that leg. They will have no impact on the TURN m=
essages carried inside the TCP connection
 or how its outgoing IP/UDP packet. So from my perspective there are no nec=
essity to discuss these as not supported.


What is discussed in this document are the options for the IP/UDP packet=
 being sent or received by the turn server to the peer. Those IP/UDP Fields=
 that can be controlled and have meaning are discussed here. Like the DSCP,=
 where TCP will force the use of
 a single one, when UDP to UDP can support many as the field value is taken=
 from the packet on the client to server leg, rather than an internal TURN =
message field.





I guess the issue here is that there is a lack of requirement making cle=
ar that for a number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the server to p=
eer leg that needs to handling rules for the client to server transport.





I think what Section 14 and 15 talks about should be labeled relaying an=
d not translation. And thus focus on how one avoid information or intent lo=
ss in the relay process. I understand why section 13 is called translation,=
 but when we get down to it, it
 is the same here, but a focus on how the relay process maintain informatio=
n of the IP layer, especially in the face of address family differences.

Cheers =0A=
=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------



--_000_HE1PR0701MB2522DCB2459055A6319C439B95EA0HE1PR0701MB2522_--


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Magnus Westerlund , Joe Touch 
CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Joe Touch 
CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
Thread-Index: AQHVJPmivfu5kKE4H0+1r830fhzriA==
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 13:47:40 +0000
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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On 2019-06-18 15:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
HI Magnus,

Please see inline [TR]

From: tram  On Behalf =
Of Magnus Westerlund
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 4:57 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ; Joe Touch 
Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@=
ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams ; tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-tu=
rnbis-25


CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you =
recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

________________________________
On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:

You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response above=
.

[TR1] Okay, will add the following lines:

TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN because T=
CP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols [RFC7478] for me=
dia and non-media data. If the TCP connection between the TURN client and s=
erver uses TCP-AO [RFC5925], the client must secure application data (e.g. =
using SRTP) to provide confidentially, message authentication and replay pr=
otection to protect the application data relayed from the server to the pee=
r using UDP.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.  Unlike UDP=
, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does not support 0-RTT =
session resumption. The TCP user timeout [RFC5482] equivalent for applicati=
on data relayed by TURN is the use of RTP control protocol (RTCP). As a rem=
inder,  RTCP is a fundamental and integral part of RTP.



Sorry, I find this very confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if that=
 is using a TCP connection, then there are no issues with using either TCP-=
MP or TCP-AO options on that leg. They will have no impact on the TURN mess=
ages carried inside the TCP connection or how its outgoing IP/UDP packet. S=
o from my perspective there are no necessity to discuss these as not suppor=
ted.

[TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application data is authe=
nticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when relayed from the ser=
ver to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this comment by saying if sec=
ure application data (SRTP) is used message authentication is available at =
the application layer even if UDP does not support authentication option.

Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN over TCP/TLS that also onl=
y have the security model to the middle. So pointing that aspect out is fin=
e, but I think TURN is quite clear on that client to peer security are the =
responsibility of the end-to-end application using TURN. Like the statement=
 in the Third paragraph of 20.1.4:

   These attacks are more properly mitigated by application-layer
   authentication techniques.  In the case of real-time traffic, usage
   of SRTP [RFC3711] prevents these attacks.



What is discussed in this document are the options for the IP/UDP packet be=
ing sent or received by the turn server to the peer. Those IP/UDP Fields th=
at can be controlled and have meaning are discussed here. Like the DSCP, wh=
ere TCP will force the use of a single one, when UDP to UDP can support man=
y as the field value is taken from the packet on the client to server leg, =
rather than an internal TURN message field.

I guess the issue here is that there is a lack of requirement making clear =
that for a number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the server to peer=
 leg that needs to handling rules for the client to server transport.

I think what Section 14 and 15 talks about should be labeled relaying and n=
ot translation. And thus focus on how one avoid information or intent loss =
in the relay process. I understand why section 13 is called translation, bu=
t when we get down to it, it is the same here, but a focus on how the relay=
 process maintain information of the IP layer, especially in the face of ad=
dress family differences.

[TR] Agreed, replaced translation with relaying in both sections 14 and 15.


If I understand Joe's comments, I think a core part of this discussion is t=
hat the introduction to section 14 and 15 don't make it clear the purpose o=
f these section is to define which information that needs to be preserved i=
n the relay, and which doesn't not and in that case what are appropriate be=
haviors.

Cheers



Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--_000_HE1PR0701MB2522C0A1063877D45985619795EA0HE1PR0701MB2522_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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On 2019-06-18 15:11, Konda, Tirumaleswar Red=
dy wrote:










HI Magnus,


 


Please see inline [=
TR]


 








From:=
 tram
&l=
t;tram-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 4:57 PM

To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Joe Touch 
<touch@strayalpha.com>

Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org;

draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; 
ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams 
<brandon.williams@akamai.com>; 
tram@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-=
tram-turnbis-25






 










CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments
 unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


















On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote=
:








You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response ab=
ove.


[TR1] Okay, will add the following lines:


TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN becaus=
e TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols [RFC7478] for=
 media and non-media data. If the TCP connection between the TURN client an=
d server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925],
 the client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide confi=
dentially, message authentication and replay protection to protect the appl=
ication data relayed from the server to the peer using UDP.  Note that=
 TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option. 
 Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does not sup=
port 0-RTT session resumption. The TCP user timeout [RFC5482] equivalent fo=
r application data relayed by TURN is the use of RTP control protocol (RTCP=
). As a reminder,  RTCP is a fundamental
 and integral part of RTP.






 


Sorry, I find this very confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if t=
hat is using a TCP connection, then there are no issues with using either T=
CP-MP or TCP-AO options on that leg. They will have no impact on the TURN m=
essages carried inside the TCP connection
 or how its outgoing IP/UDP packet. So from my perspective there are no nec=
essity to discuss these as not supported.


[TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-A=
O is used, application data is authenticated in the TCP leg but the data ca=
n be faked when relayed from the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to a=
ddress this comment by saying if secure
 application data (SRTP) is used message authentication is available at the=
 application layer even if UDP does not support authentication option.









Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN over TCP/TLS that also =
only have the security model to the middle. So pointing that aspect out is =
fine, but I think TURN is quite clear on that client to peer security are t=
he responsibility of the end-to-end
 application using TURN. Like the statement in the Third paragraph of 20.1.=
4:


   These attacks are more properly mitigated by application-layer=0A=
   authentication techniques.  In the case of real-time traffic, usage=0A=
   of SRTP [RFC3711] prevents these attacks.=0A=
=0A=











What is discussed in this document are the options for the IP/UDP packet=
 being sent or received by the turn server to the peer. Those IP/UDP Fields=
 that can be controlled and have meaning are discussed here. Like the DSCP,=
 where TCP will force the use of
 a single one, when UDP to UDP can support many as the field value is taken=
 from the packet on the client to server leg, rather than an internal TURN =
message field.



I guess the issue here is that there is a lack of requirement making cle=
ar that for a number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the server to p=
eer leg that needs to handling rules for the client to server transport.



I think what Section 14 and 15 talks about should be labeled relaying an=
d not translation. And thus focus on how one avoid information or intent lo=
ss in the relay process. I understand why section 13 is called translation,=
 but when we get down to it, it
 is the same here, but a focus on how the relay process maintain informatio=
n of the IP layer, especially in the face of address family differences.


[TR] Agreed, replaced translation with =
relaying in both sections 14 and 15.













If I understand Joe's comments, I think a core part of this discussion i=
s that the introduction to section 14 and 15 don't make it clear the purpos=
e of these section is to define which information that needs to be preserve=
d in the relay, and which doesn't
 not and in that case what are appropriate behaviors. 




Cheers







=0A=
Magnus Westerlund =0A=
=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287=0A=
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A=
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com=0A=
----------------------------------------------------------------------



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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Notes below.

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:03 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> HI Magnus,
> =20
> Please see inline [TR]
> =20
> From: tram > On =
Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund
> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 4:57 PM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >; Joe Touch =
>
> Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org ; =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org =
; ietf@ietf.org =
; Brandon Williams >; tram@ietf.org =

> Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
> =20
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless =
you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>=20
> On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> You need to address these issues - e.g., by a version of the response =
above.
>=20
> [TR1] Okay, will add the following lines:
>=20
> TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN =
because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols =
[RFC7478] for media and non-media data. If the TCP connection between =
the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925], the client must secure =
application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide confidentially, message =
authentication and replay protection to protect the application data =
relayed from the server to the peer using UDP.  Note that TCP-AO option =
obsoletes TCP MD5 option.  Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open =
extension [RFC7413] does not support 0-RTT session resumption. The TCP =
user timeout [RFC5482] equivalent for application data relayed by TURN =
is the use of RTP control protocol (RTCP). As a reminder,  RTCP is a =
fundamental and integral part of RTP.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Sorry, I find this very confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if =
that is using a TCP connection, then there are no issues with using =
either TCP-MP or TCP-AO options on that leg. They will have no impact on =
the TURN messages carried inside the TCP connection or how its outgoing =
IP/UDP packet. So from my perspective there are no necessity to discuss =
these as not supported.
>=20
I=E2=80=99m not weighing in on whether they=E2=80=99re supported or not, =
but support needs to be discussed one way or the other.
> [TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application data is =
authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when relayed from =
the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this comment by =
saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used message authentication =
is available at the application layer even if UDP does not support =
authentication option.
>=20
> What is discussed in this document are the options for the IP/UDP =
packet being sent or received by the turn server to the peer. Those =
IP/UDP Fields that can be controlled and have meaning are discussed =
here. Like the DSCP, where TCP will force the use of a single one, when =
UDP to UDP can support many as the field value is taken from the packet =
on the client to server leg, rather than an internal TURN message field.
>=20
> I guess the issue here is that there is a lack of requirement making =
clear that for a number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the =
server to peer leg that needs to handling rules for the client to server =
transport.
>=20
> I think what Section 14 and 15 talks about should be labeled relaying =
and not translation. And thus focus on how one avoid information or =
intent loss in the relay process. I understand why section 13 is called =
translation, but when we get down to it, it is the same here, but a =
focus on how the relay process maintain information of the IP layer, =
especially in the face of address family differences.
>=20
> [TR] Agreed, replaced translation with relaying in both sections 14 =
and 15.
>=20
That would help, but it=E2=80=99s more than just replacing a single =
word.

The way in which those sections discuss IP options is misleading. It =
should talk about them more clearly in terms of individual UDP messages =
and TCP connections, not in terms of =E2=80=98 when you get this TURN =
message, here=E2=80=99s how to set these values in IP packets=E2=80=9D - =
because the latter (even if not a direct quote) is misleading in =
implying these settings can change throughout a TCP connection.

I agree that presenting this as relaying would be much more clear, but =
it affects more than a simple word change.

Joe=

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Notes=
 below.

On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:03 AM, Konda, =
Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

HI Magnus,
 
Please see =
inline [TR]
 
From: tram <tram-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf =
Of Magnus =
Westerlund
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 4:57 =
PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>; tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart =
last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
 
CAUTION: External =
email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the =
sender and know the content is safe.
On 2019-06-17 12:44, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
You need to address these =
issues - e.g., by a version of the response above.
[TR1] Okay, will add the following =
lines:
TCP multi-path [RFC6824] =
is not supported by this version of TURN because TCP multi-path is not =
used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols [RFC7478] for media and non-media =
data. If the TCP connection between the TURN client and server uses =
TCP-AO [RFC5925], the client must secure application data (e.g. using =
SRTP) to provide confidentially, message authentication and replay =
protection to protect the application data relayed from the server to =
the peer using UDP.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 =
option.  Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension =
[RFC7413] does not support 0-RTT session resumption. The TCP user =
timeout [RFC5482] equivalent for application data relayed by TURN is the =
use of RTP control protocol (RTCP). As a reminder,  RTCP is a =
fundamental and integral part of RTP.
 
Sorry, I find this very =
confusing. On the Client to TURN Server leg if that is using a TCP =
connection, then there are no issues with using either TCP-MP or TCP-AO =
options on that leg. They will have no impact on the TURN messages =
carried inside the TCP connection or how its outgoing IP/UDP packet. So =
from my perspective there are no necessity to discuss these as not =
supported.
I=E2=80=99m not =
weighing in on whether they=E2=80=99re supported or not, but support =
needs to be discussed one way or the other.
[TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application =
data is authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when =
relayed from the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this =
comment by saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used message =
authentication is available at the application layer even if UDP does =
not support authentication option.
What is discussed in this document are the options for the =
IP/UDP packet being sent or received by the turn server to the peer. =
Those IP/UDP Fields that can be controlled and have meaning are =
discussed here. Like the DSCP, where TCP will force the use of a single =
one, when UDP to UDP can support many as the field value is taken from =
the packet on the client to server leg, rather than an internal TURN =
message field.
I guess the issue =
here is that there is a lack of requirement making clear that for a =
number of the fields in the IP/UDP handled on the server to peer leg =
that needs to handling rules for the client to server transport.
I think what Section 14 and 15 talks =
about should be labeled relaying and not translation. And thus focus on =
how one avoid information or intent loss in the relay process. I =
understand why section 13 is called translation, but when we get down to =
it, it is the same here, but a focus on how the relay process maintain =
information of the IP layer, especially in the face of address family =
differences.
[TR] Agreed, replaced translation with relaying =
in both sections 14 and 15.
That would help, but =
it=E2=80=99s more than just replacing a single word.

The way in which those sections discuss IP options =
is misleading. It should talk about them more clearly in terms of =
individual UDP messages and TCP connections, not in terms of =E2=80=98 =
when you get this TURN message, here=E2=80=99s how to set these values =
in IP packets=E2=80=9D - because the latter (even if not a direct quote) =
is misleading in implying these settings can change throughout a TCP =
connection.

I agree that presenting =
this as relaying would be much more clear, but it affects more than a =
simple word change.

Joe
=

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From: Joe Touch 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 07:30:25 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
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To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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See end...

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 1:31 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> Please see inline [TR2]
> =20
> From: tram > On =
Behalf Of Joe Touch
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 7:48 PM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >
> Cc: Magnus Westerlund >; ietf@ietf.org =
; Brandon Williams >; =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org =
; tsv-art@ietf.org =
; tram@ietf.org 
> Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
> =20
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless =
you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 17, 2019, at 3:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> Please see inline [TR1]
>  =E2=80=A6
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 13, 2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
> =20
> ...
> The description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which
> seems dangerous (even as a description). This is especially true for =
the
> notion that each UDP packet is translated into exactly one TCP frame =
directly.
>=20
> The TURN specification only discusses packet-to-packet translation for =
UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP relay.
> =20
> Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on the received =
messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet translation, can you =
explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a connection, not on a =
per packet basis
> =20
> [TR] It is not based on packet-to-packet translation. TURN client can =
set the DON=E2=80=99T-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message to tell the =
TURN server to set the DF bit in the resulting UDP datagram sent to the =
peer. Please =
seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15 =

> The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a TCP =
connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of IP =
fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a per-message =
basis for UDP, but not for TCP.
> [TR1] Section 15 discusses both IP fragmentation and IP options, see =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-15 =

> It does, but incorrectly implies these are per packet decisions. As =
with that section=E2=80=99s description of DSCP, the descriptions of IP =
fragmentation and IP options need to indicate these are either not under =
user control (IP fragmentation) or per-connection (IP options) for TCP.
> =20
> [TR2] No, the section does not say per-packet translations. Please see =
the below snip from Section 15
> 
>       Preferred Behavior: When the server sends a packet to a peer in
>       response to a Send indication containing the DONT-FRAGMENT
>       attribute, then set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1.  =
In
>       all other cases when sending an outgoing packet containing
>       application data (e.g., Data indication, ChannelData message, or
>       DONT-FRAGMENT attribute not included in the Send indication), =
set
>       the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 0.
> 

Loosely restated, this says:
=09
	when you get TURN message X, set the IP header as follows

That implies that each TURN message affects a single IP header. That =
implies packet translation, not content relay - especially because it =
cannot work for TCP content relay, where IP options cannot be controlled =
 mid-connection on a per-user-message basis....

> Again, despite claims of intent, this document=E2=80=99s description =
of all these translations inappropriately implies they are per-packet =
decisions throughout. This should further be corrected with some =
explicit text indicating otherwise - as has been noted throughout this =
thread.
> =20
> [TR2] I will add the following line to avoid confusion:
> =20
> Note that the server does not preform per-packet translation for =
TCP-to-UDP translation and vice-versa.

That seems reasonable, but=E2=80=A6.

> The TURN server sets various fields in the IP header based on the =
DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message and on a per-connection =
basis for the TCP connection.

That=E2=80=99s still confusing.

You=E2=80=99re not setting IP header values; you=E2=80=99re setting TCP =
or UDP parameters (which you hope will affect IP values).

Is this also based on the DF attribute in the TURN message, or would it =
be equally valid (and much more clear) to say that it is based on the DF =
value of a **TURN session***? I.e., what happens if you receive more =
than one TURN message with different DF parameters (itor if this is =
strictly prohibited, please cite where that is mandated).

Joe



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

See =
end...

On Jun 18, 2019, at 1:31 AM, Konda, =
Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
Please =
see inline [TR2]
 
From: tram <tram-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf =
Of Joe Touch
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2019 7:48 =
PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Cc: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; tsv-art@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart =
last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
 
CAUTION: External email. Do not =
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know =
the content is safe.
 


On Jun 17, 2019, at 3:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:
 
Hi Joe,
 
Please see inline [TR1]
 =E2=80=A6


On Jun 13, =
2019, at 1:42 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> =
wrote:
 
...
The =
description in the document implies packet-to-packet translation, =
which
seems dangerous (even as a description). This is =
especially true for the
notion that each UDP packet is =
translated into exactly one TCP frame directly.

The TURN specification only discusses =
packet-to-packet translation for UDP-to-UDP relay and not for TCP-to-UDP =
relay.
 
Sec 15 talks about setting IP fragmentation based on =
the received messages. If this is not based on packet-to-packet =
translation, can you explain how this can be achieved? TCP sets DF for a =
connection, not on a per packet basis
 
[TR] It is not based on =
packet-to-packet translation. TURN client can set the DON=E2=80=99T-FRAGME=
NT attribute in the TURN message to tell the TURN server to set the DF =
bit in the resulting UDP datagram sent to the peer. Please seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-=
15
The section notes that only a single DSCP can be set for a =
TCP connection. A similar note should be included in the discussion of =
IP fragmentation and IP options  - these too can be set on a =
per-message basis for UDP, but not for TCP.
[TR1] Section 15 discusses both IP =
fragmentation and IP options, see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25#section-=
15
It does, but incorrectly =
implies these are per packet decisions. As with that section=E2=80=99s =
description of DSCP, the descriptions of IP fragmentation and IP options =
need to indicate these are either not under user control (IP =
fragmentation) or per-connection (IP options) for TCP.
 
[TR2] No, =
the section does not say per-packet translations. Please see the below =
snip from Section 15
<snip>
      Preferred =
Behavior: When the server sends a packet to a peer in
      response to a Send indication =
containing the DONT-FRAGMENT
      attribute, then set the DF bit =
in the outgoing IP header to 1.  In
      all other cases when sending =
an outgoing packet containing
      application data (e.g., Data =
indication, ChannelData message, or
      DONT-FRAGMENT attribute not =
included in the Send indication), set
      the DF bit in the outgoing IP =
header to 0.
</snip>
<=
div>
Loosely restated, this =
says:
	=

	when you get TURN message X, set =
the IP header as follows

That =
implies that each TURN message affects a single IP header. That implies =
packet translation, not content relay - especially because it cannot =
work for TCP content relay, where IP options cannot be controlled =
 mid-connection on a per-user-message basis....

Again, despite claims of intent, this document=E2=80=99s =
description of all these translations inappropriately implies they are =
per-packet decisions throughout. This should further be corrected with =
some explicit text indicating otherwise - as has been noted throughout =
this thread.
 
[TR2] I will add the following line to avoid confusion:
 
Note that =
the server does not preform per-packet translation for TCP-to-UDP =
translation and =
vice-versa.

That seems reasonable, but=E2=80=A6.

 The TURN server sets various fields in =
the IP header based on the DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message =
and on a per-connection basis for the TCP =
connection.

That=E2=80=99s still confusing.

You=E2=80=99re not setting IP header values; =
you=E2=80=99re setting TCP or UDP parameters (which you hope will affect =
IP values).

Is this also based on =
the DF attribute in the TURN message, or would it be equally valid (and =
much more clear) to say that it is based on the DF value of a **TURN =
session***? I.e., what happens if you receive more than one TURN message =
with different DF parameters (itor if this is strictly prohibited, =
please cite where that is mandated).

Joe


=

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Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
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> On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:47 AM, Magnus Westerlund =
 wrote:
>=20
>> [TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application data is =
authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when relayed from =
the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this comment by =
saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used message authentication =
is available at the application layer even if UDP does not support =
authentication option.
>>=20
> Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN over TCP/TLS that =
also only have the security model to the middle. So pointing that aspect =
out is fine, but I think TURN is quite clear on that client to peer =
security are the responsibility of the end-to-end application using =
TURN. Like the statement in the Third paragraph of 20.1.4:
>=20
>    These attacks are more properly mitigated by application-layer
>    authentication techniques.  In the case of real-time traffic, usage
>    of SRTP [RFC3711] prevents these attacks.

FWIW, even with this statement, if you=E2=80=99re going to talk about =
preserving IP options and settings then it=E2=80=99s equally important =
to discuss how you preserve or interfere with TCP options and settings - =
and maybe other layers like TLS too - in the same place in the document.

It=E2=80=99s not just whether this is a security issue; it=E2=80=99s =
that the semantics are broken in half.

Joe


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On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:47 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

[TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is =
used, application data is authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can =
be faked when relayed from the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to =
address this comment by saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used =
message authentication is available at the application layer even if UDP =
does not support authentication =
option.
Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN over TCP/TLS =
that also only have the security model to the middle. So pointing that =
aspect out is fine, but I think TURN is quite clear on that client to =
peer security are the responsibility of the end-to-end application using =
TURN. Like the statement in the Third paragraph of 20.1.4:
   These attacks are more =
properly mitigated by application-layer
   authentication techniques.  In the case of real-time traffic, usage
   of SRTP [RFC3711] prevents these =
attacks.

FWIW, =
even with this statement, if you=E2=80=99re going to talk about =
preserving IP options and settings then it=E2=80=99s equally important =
to discuss how you preserve or interfere with TCP options and settings - =
and maybe other layers like TLS too - in the same place in the =
document.

It=E2=80=99s not just =
whether this is a security issue; it=E2=80=99s that the semantics are =
broken in half.

Joe

=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch , Magnus Westerlund 
CC: "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:20:34 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi, Tiru,

You still appear to be ignoring the issue about implying per-packet =
adjustment of IP options and parameters during a TCP connection, in =
specific.

Joe

> On Jun 19, 2019, at 6:24 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> I have added the following lines to address your comment:
> =20
>    TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN
>    because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols
>    [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If the TCP connection
>    between the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, =
the
>    client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
>    confidentially, message authentication and replay protection to
>    protect the application data relayed from the server to the peer
>    using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed =
in
>    Section 20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
>    Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does
>    not support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout =
[RFC5482]
>    equivalent for application data relayed by the TURN is the use of =
RTP
>    control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, RTCP is a fundamental and
>    integral part of RTP.
> =20
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
> =20
> From: Joe Touch >=20=

> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:03 PM
> To: Magnus Westerlund >
> Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >; tsv-art@ietf.org =
; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org =
; ietf@ietf.org =
; Brandon Williams >; tram@ietf.org =

> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
> =20
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless =
you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:47 AM, Magnus Westerlund =
> =
wrote:
> =20
> [TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application data is =
authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when relayed from =
the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this comment by =
saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used message authentication =
is available at the application layer even if UDP does not support =
authentication option.
> Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN over TCP/TLS that =
also only have the security model to the middle. So pointing that aspect =
out is fine, but I think TURN is quite clear on that client to peer =
security are the responsibility of the end-to-end application using =
TURN. Like the statement in the Third paragraph of 20.1.4:
>    These attacks are more properly mitigated by application-layer
>    authentication techniques.  In the case of real-time traffic, usage
>    of SRTP [RFC3711] prevents these attacks.
> =20
> FWIW, even with this statement, if you=E2=80=99re going to talk about =
preserving IP options and settings then it=E2=80=99s equally important =
to discuss how you preserve or interfere with TCP options and settings - =
and maybe other layers like TLS too - in the same place in the document.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s not just whether this is a security issue; it=E2=80=99s =
that the semantics are broken in half.
> =20
> Joe


--Apple-Mail=_62BA830A-9440-4A70-BEA8-66A5B7923F7C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Hi, =
Tiru,

You still =
appear to be ignoring the issue about implying per-packet adjustment of =
IP options and parameters during a TCP connection, in =
specific.

Joe

On Jun 19, 2019, at 6:24 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
I have =
added the following lines to address your comment:
 
   TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by =
this version of TURN
   because =
TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols
   [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If =
the TCP connection
   between the TURN client and server =
uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, the
   client =
must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
   confidentially, message authentication and =
replay protection to
   protect =
the application data relayed from the server to the peer
   using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in =
fake data is discussed in
   Section =
20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
   Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open =
extension [RFC7413] does
   not =
support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout =
[RFC5482]
   equivalent for application data =
relayed by the TURN is the use of RTP
   control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, =
RTCP is a fundamental and
   integral =
part of RTP.
 
Cheers,
-Tiru
 
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2019 8:03 =
PM
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>; tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>; tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart =
last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
 
CAUTION: External =
email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the =
sender and know the content is safe.
 


On Jun 18, 2019, at 6:47 AM, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
 
[TR] The comment from Joe is : if TCP-AO is used, application =
data is authenticated in the TCP leg but the data can be faked when =
relayed from the server to the peer using UDP. I tried to address this =
comment by saying if secure application data (SRTP) is used message =
authentication is available at the application layer even if UDP does =
not support authentication option.
Sure, but this is equivalent to the case of TURN =
over TCP/TLS that also only have the security model to the middle. So =
pointing that aspect out is fine, but I think TURN is quite clear on =
that client to peer security are the responsibility of the end-to-end =
application using TURN. Like the statement in the Third paragraph of =
20.1.4:
   These attacks are more properly =
mitigated by application-layer
   authentication techniques.  In the case of =
real-time traffic, usage
   of SRTP =
[RFC3711] prevents these attacks.
 
FWIW, even with this statement, if =
you=E2=80=99re going to talk about preserving IP options and settings =
then it=E2=80=99s equally important to discuss how you preserve or =
interfere with TCP options and settings - and maybe other layers like =
TLS too - in the same place in the document.
 
It=E2=80=99s not just whether this is a =
security issue; it=E2=80=99s that the semantics are broken in half.
 
Joe

=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
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From nobody Wed Jun 19 07:43:17 2019
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:42:58 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
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References: <155971464360.28104.6837263931145163343@ietfa.amsl.com>   <5F2F8A3B-2887-4107-81E2-B4E222A4044E@strayalpha.com>  <2C6B5776-CB95-4607-8D0C-07FDE2F6D515@strayalpha.com>       <4C41A2BC-0CBC-42D5-B313-22F9A9D51F6E@strayalpha.com>          
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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That text remains insufficient, e.g.:

> On Jun 19, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> I have added the following line to address your other comment:
> =20
> Note that the server does not perform per-packet translation for =
TCP-to-UDP relaying and vice-versa. For TCP-to-UDP relaying from client =
to peer, the TURN server sets the DF field in the outgoing UDP packet =
based on the presence of DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message. =
For UDP-to-TCP relaying from peer to client, the TURN server sets IP =
header fields in the TCP packets on a per-connection basis for the TCP =
connection.

Which parameters? Based on what?

In addition, a mere note does not undo the implication of indicating =
each IP parameter (option, DF) separately as if there are always =
configurable per-TURN message.

Joe=

--Apple-Mail=_16AC9096-AE99-47E7-831F-2150E7CEAE5C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

That =
text remains insufficient, e.g.:

On Jun =
19, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
I have =
added the following line to address your other comment:
 
Note that =
the server does not perform per-packet translation for TCP-to-UDP =
relaying and vice-versa. For TCP-to-UDP relaying from client to peer, =
the TURN server sets the DF field in the outgoing UDP packet based on =
the presence of DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message. For =
UDP-to-TCP relaying from peer to client, the TURN server sets IP header =
fields in the TCP packets on a per-connection basis for the TCP =
connection.

Which parameters? Based on what?

In addition, a mere note does not undo the =
implication of indicating each IP parameter (option, DF) separately as =
if there are always configurable per-TURN message.

Joe
=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 07:59:24 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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That fragmentation text is fine; the text on IPv4 and IPv6 fragmentation =
that appears earlier in Sec 15 is the issue.

Can you just drop that earlier text?

Joe

> On Jun 19, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> Please see inline
> =20
> From: Joe Touch >=20=

> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 8:13 PM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy >
> Cc: Magnus Westerlund >; tram@ietf.org =
; Brandon Williams >; =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org =
; tsv-art@ietf.org =
; ietf@ietf.org 
> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of =
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
> =20
> CAUTION: External email. Do not click links or open attachments unless =
you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>=20
> That text remains insufficient, e.g.:
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 19, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> I have added the following line to address your other comment:
> =20
> Note that the server does not perform per-packet translation for =
TCP-to-UDP relaying and vice-versa. For TCP-to-UDP relaying from client =
to peer, the TURN server sets the DF field in the outgoing UDP packet =
based on the presence of DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message. =
For UDP-to-TCP relaying from peer to client, the TURN server sets IP =
header fields in the TCP packets on a per-connection basis for the TCP =
connection.
> =20
> Which parameters? Based on what?
> =20
> [TR] It is already discussed in section 15.
> =20
> 
> =20
>    Differentiated Services Code Point (DSCP) field [RFC2474 =
]
> =20
>       Preferred Behavior: Set the outgoing value to the incoming =
value,
>       unless the server includes a differentiated services classifier
>       and marker [RFC2474 ].  =
Note, the TCP connection can only use a
>       single DSCP code point so inter flow differentiation is not
>       possible, see Section=C2=A05.1 of [RFC7657] =
.
> =20
>    Fragmentation
> =20
>       Preferred Behavior: Any fragmented packets are reassembled in =
the
>       server and then forwarded to the client over the TCP connection.
>       ICMP messages resulting from the UDP datagrams sent to the peer
>       MUST be forwarded to the client using TURN's mechanism for
>       relevant ICMP types and codes.
> =20
>    IPv4 Options
> =20
>       Preferred Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4
>       options.
> =20
> 
> =20
> -Tiru
> =20
> In addition, a mere note does not undo the implication of indicating =
each IP parameter (option, DF) separately as if there are always =
configurable per-TURN message.
> =20
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art =


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That =
fragmentation text is fine; the text on IPv4 and IPv6 fragmentation that =
appears earlier in Sec 15 is the issue.

Can you just drop that earlier =
text?

Joe

On Jun 19, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
Please =
see inline
 
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 =
8:13 PM
To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
<TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
Cc: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>; tram@ietf.org; Brandon Williams <brandon.williams@akamai.com>; draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; tsv-art@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart =
last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
 
CAUTION: External =
email. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the =
sender and know the content is safe.
That text =
remains insufficient, e.g.:


On Jun 19, 2019, at 7:30 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:
 
Hi Joe,
 
I have added the following line to =
address your other comment:
 
Note that the server does not perform per-packet translation =
for TCP-to-UDP relaying and vice-versa. For TCP-to-UDP relaying from =
client to peer, the TURN server sets the DF field in the outgoing UDP =
packet based on the presence of DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN =
message. For UDP-to-TCP relaying from peer to client, the TURN server =
sets IP header fields in the TCP packets on a per-connection basis for =
the TCP connection.
 
Which parameters? Based on what?
 
[TR] It =
is already discussed in section 15.
 
<snip>
 
   Differentiated Services Code Point (DSCP) field =
[RFC2474]
 
      Preferred =
Behavior: Set the outgoing value to the incoming value,
      unless the server includes a =
differentiated services classifier
      and marker [RFC2474].  Note, the TCP connection can only use =
a
      single DSCP code =
point so inter flow differentiation is not
      possible, see Section 5.1 of =
[RFC7657].
 
   Fragmentation
 
      Preferred Behavior: Any =
fragmented packets are reassembled in the
      =
server and then forwarded to the client over the TCP connection.
      ICMP messages resulting from =
the UDP datagrams sent to the peer
      MUST =
be forwarded to the client using TURN's mechanism for
      relevant ICMP types and codes.
 
   IPv4 Options
 
      Preferred =
Behavior: The outgoing packet is sent without any IPv4
      options.
 
</snip>
 
-Tiru
 
In addition, a mere note does not undo =
the implication of indicating each IP parameter (option, DF) separately =
as if there are always configurable per-TURN message.
 
Joe
_______________________________________________
Tsv-art mailing list
Tsv-art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art

=

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Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt"
Content-Description: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt";
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--_004_DM5PR16MB1705D7AB3DB31338F0905D87EAE50DM5PR16MB1705namp_--


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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 17:29:34 -0700
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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--Apple-Mail=_C043F442-3E36-4B09-816C-1C1D7624A06E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=utf-8

Tiru,

This sort of patch isn=E2=80=99t sufficient. It doesn=E2=80=99t address =
the confusion throughout section 15 as to what=E2=80=99s actually =
happening.

Sec 15 shouldn=E2=80=99t talk about =E2=80=9Csetting=E2=80=9D IP header =
values at all; it should refer to =E2=80=9Cconfiguring transport =
sessions=E2=80=9D in the desired ways. Otherwise you=E2=80=99re implying =
direct packet-level conversion. Even the title of that section is a =
problem in this regard.

Tthe sections themselves should be revised to similarly refer to =
transport-level actions, not packet level, e.g.:
15.1 TCP to UDP
	- because DSCP should not vary within a TCP session, there is no =
packet-level tracking of copying DSCP from TCP to UDP; instead, DSCP =
would be a property of the TCP session that would be used to configure =
the UDP socket pair.
	- IP fragmentation control needs to be explained in terms of UDP =
interactions
	- IPv6 fragmentation has nothing to do with the received packet =
(which is TCP
	- IP options are *as default*; it=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t correct =
that you never use IP options (or are you actively disabling them?)
		NOTE: that goes for the direct IPv4 to IPv6 translation =
in section 4 (which is similarly problematic)

15.2 UDP to TCP
	- the last sentence of the second paragraph seems at odds with =
the first; the first says =E2=80=9Cset these once per connection=E2=80=9D,=
 it is sufficient IMO.
	-TCP DSCP should be based on the *first* UDP value seen (it =
could vary)
	- same issue with IP extension headers and options (presumably =
you use the default

Joe

> On Jun 19, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> The IPv4 and IPv6 fragmentation description is specific to TCP-to-UDP =
relaying between the client and the peer (only for TCP-to-UDP relay, the =
DF attribute in the TURN message will be used to set the DF bit in the =
outgoing UDP packet to the peer). To avoid confusion, I have added two =
new sub-sections:
> 15.1.  IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP relaying and 15.2 IP Header =
Fields for UDP-to-TCP relaying
> =20
> Please see the attached updated draft.
> =20
> Cheers,
> -Tiru

--Apple-Mail=_C043F442-3E36-4B09-816C-1C1D7624A06E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

Tiru,

This =
sort of patch isn=E2=80=99t sufficient. It doesn=E2=80=99t address the =
confusion throughout section 15 as to what=E2=80=99s actually =
happening.

Sec =
15 shouldn=E2=80=99t talk about =E2=80=9Csetting=E2=80=9D IP header =
values at all; it should refer to =E2=80=9Cconfiguring transport =
sessions=E2=80=9D in the desired ways. Otherwise you=E2=80=99re implying =
direct packet-level conversion. Even the title of that section is a =
problem in this regard.

Tthe sections themselves should be revised to similarly refer =
to transport-level actions, not packet level, e.g.:
15.1 TCP to UDP
	- because =
DSCP should not vary within a TCP session, there is no packet-level =
tracking of copying DSCP from TCP to UDP; instead, DSCP would be a =
property of the TCP session that would be used to configure the UDP =
socket pair.
	- IP fragmentation control needs =
to be explained in terms of UDP interactions
	- IPv6 =
fragmentation has nothing to do with the received packet (which is =
TCP
	- IP options are *as default*; =
it=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t correct that you never use IP options (or are =
you actively disabling them?)
		=
NOTE: that goes for the direct IPv4 to IPv6 translation in =
section 4 (which is similarly problematic)

15.2 UDP to TCP
	=
- the last sentence of the second paragraph seems at odds with =
the first; the first says =E2=80=9Cset these once per connection=E2=80=9D,=
 it is sufficient IMO.
	-TCP DSCP should be based on the =
*first* UDP value seen (it could vary)
	- same =
issue with IP extension headers and options (presumably you use the =
default

Joe

On Jun 19, 2019, at 8:14 AM, =
Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
The IPv4 =
and IPv6 fragmentation description is specific to TCP-to-UDP relaying =
between the client and the peer (only for TCP-to-UDP relay, the DF =
attribute in the TURN message will be used to set the DF bit in the =
outgoing UDP packet to the peer). To avoid confusion, I have added two =
new sub-sections:
15.1.  IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP relaying and 15.2 =
IP Header Fields for UDP-to-TCP relaying
 
Please see the attached updated =
draft.
 
Cheers,
-Tiru
=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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From: Joe Touch 
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Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "tram@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi, Tiru,

> On Jun 20, 2019, at 3:46 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> Please see inline [TR]
> ...
> This sort of patch isn=E2=80=99t sufficient. It doesn=E2=80=99t =
address the confusion throughout section 15 as to what=E2=80=99s =
actually happening.
> =20
> Sec 15 shouldn=E2=80=99t talk about =E2=80=9Csetting=E2=80=9D IP =
header values at all; it should refer to =E2=80=9Cconfiguring transport =
sessions=E2=80=9D in the desired ways. Otherwise you=E2=80=99re implying =
direct packet-level conversion. Even the title of that section is a =
problem in this regard.
> =20
> [TR] What title do you want me to use for Section 15 ?

Sec 14 could be =E2=80=9CUDP relay=E2=80=9D

Sec 15 could be =E2=80=9CMixed transport relay=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CTCP/UD=
P and UDP/TCP relay=E2=80=9D

In both cases, the issue isn=E2=80=99t to focus on the IP header fields.

> Tthe sections themselves should be revised to similarly refer to =
transport-level actions, not packet level, e.g.:
> 15.1 TCP to UDP
>               - because DSCP should not vary within a TCP session, =
there is no packet-level tracking of copying DSCP from TCP to UDP; =
instead, DSCP would be a property of the TCP session that would be used =
to configure the UDP socket pair.
> =20
> [TR] Agreed, but the text looks correct to me. It says =E2=80=9CNote, =
the TCP connection can only use a single DSCP code point so inter flow =
differentiation is not possible=E2=80=9D.  =20

It=E2=80=99s not a note. It=E2=80=99s the point. You don=E2=80=99t set =
the outgoing to the incoming per se; you set the *TCP connection* to use =
the DSCP of the first UDP packet.

>               - IP fragmentation control needs to be explained in =
terms of UDP interactions
> =20
> [TR] Yes, DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message is used to set =
the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1. What specific change are you =
expecting ?

Again, you=E2=80=99re talking about building a network layer packet =
header. The point is that you should be describing this in terms of =
=E2=80=9Csetting the UDP packet to not fragment=E2=80=9D. That is NOT =
merely IP DF=3D1; that would only prevent *in-network* fragmentation. =
You need to tell UDP not to source fragment too.

And all of this should be described in a way that doesn=E2=80=99t imply =
that the only approach is to have the user build the packet all the way =
to the IP headers.

Here=E2=80=99s why it matters - an IPv4 packet can *already be source =
fragmented* and still have the individual fragments set DF=3D0. DF=3D0 =
just means the *network* should not sub-fragment what it receives, not =
that the packet is =E2=80=9Catomic=E2=80=9D (not fragmented a the source =
AND not fragmentable by the network)

>               - IPv6 fragmentation has nothing to do with the received =
packet (which is TCP
> =20
> [TR] Same as above,  DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message is =
used to set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to 1.

The server doesn=E2=80=99t ignore the the fragment fields of the =
received packets; it uses them to reassemble (by the IP stack). They are =
ignored in terms of whether to set the *transport* to avoid UDP using =
source fragmentation. Again, though, this isn=E2=80=99t about setting IP =
header fields.


>               - IP options are *as default*; it=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t =
correct that you never use IP options (or are you actively disabling =
them?)
>                               NOTE: that goes for the direct IPv4 to =
IPv6 translation in section 4 (which is similarly problematic)
> =20
> [TR]   I am not aware of default IPv4 options and extension headers, =
and I don=E2=80=99t see any default IPv4 options discussed =
inhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6274 =
. What IP4 options and IPv6 =
extension headers are default ?

By =E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m referring to system-wide =
configurations to use particular IP options. Your description appears to =
prevent their use; are you actively prohibiting all IP options? Even =
system-wide defaults, if so configured?

>           RTP/RTCP do not use any IPv4 options and IPv6 extension =
headers. What is the loss of functionality if IP options and extension =
headers are not set by the TURN server for outgoing UDP packets to the =
peer ?

You would be expecting the transport to override a system-wide network =
default, which may not be possible on some systems.

You can probably just say =E2=80=9Cuse system defaults=E2=80=9D.

> 15.2 UDP to TCP
>               - the last sentence of the second paragraph seems at =
odds with the first; the first says =E2=80=9Cset these once per =
connection=E2=80=9D, it is sufficient IMO.
> =20
> [TR] Okay, removed the last sentence of the second paragraph.
> =20
>               -TCP DSCP should be based on the *first* UDP value seen =
(it could vary)
> =20
> [TR] No, the client first establishes TCP connection with the server =
and exchanges TURN messages for allocation and permission, UDP packets =
can only be sent by the peer after permission is created. Please =
seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.3 =

OK, but then you need to say *in this section* how you expect to set the =
TCP DSCP. The text is confusing - it talks about =E2=80=9Cserver-to-client=
=E2=80=9D matching =E2=80=9Cclient-to-server=E2=80=9D - that=E2=80=99s =
just the other direction of the same TCP connection. If you are =
referring to other endpoints or transport protocols, be specific and =
clear.=20

> =20
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
> =20
>               - same issue with IP extension headers and options =
(presumably you use the default
> =20
> Joe
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 19, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Joe,
> =20
> The IPv4 and IPv6 fragmentation description is specific to TCP-to-UDP =
relaying between the client and the peer (only for TCP-to-UDP relay, the =
DF attribute in the TURN message will be used to set the DF bit in the =
outgoing UDP packet to the peer). To avoid confusion, I have added two =
new sub-sections:
> 15.1.  IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP relaying and 15.2 IP Header =
Fields for UDP-to-TCP relaying
> =20
> Please see the attached updated draft.
> =20
> Cheers,
> -Tiru
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art =


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

Hi, =
Tiru,

On Jun 20, 2019, at 3:46 AM, Konda, =
Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:

Hi =
Joe,
 
Please =
see inline [TR]
...
This sort =
of patch isn=E2=80=99t sufficient. It doesn=E2=80=99t address the =
confusion throughout section 15 as to what=E2=80=99s actually =
happening.
 
Sec 15 shouldn=E2=80=99t talk about =E2=80=9Csetting=E2=80=9D =
IP header values at all; it should refer to =E2=80=9Cconfiguring =
transport sessions=E2=80=9D in the desired ways. Otherwise you=E2=80=99re =
implying direct packet-level conversion. Even the title of that section =
is a problem in this regard.
 
[TR] What title do you want me to use =
for Section 15 ?

Sec 14 could be =E2=80=9CUDP =
relay=E2=80=9D

Sec 15 could be =
=E2=80=9CMixed transport relay=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CTCP/UDP and UDP/TCP =
relay=E2=80=9D

In both cases, the =
issue isn=E2=80=99t to focus on the IP header fields.

Tthe sections themselves should be =
revised to similarly refer to transport-level actions, not packet level, =
e.g.:
15.1 TCP to UDP
        &=
nbsp;     - because DSCP =
should not vary within a TCP session, there is no packet-level tracking =
of copying DSCP from TCP to UDP; instead, DSCP would be a property of =
the TCP session that would be used to configure the UDP socket pair.
 
[TR] =
Agreed, but the text looks correct to me. It says =E2=80=9CNote, the TCP =
connection can only use a single DSCP code point so inter flow =
differentiation is not possible=E2=80=9D. =
  

It=E2=80=99s not a note. It=E2=80=99s the point. =
You don=E2=80=99t set the outgoing to the incoming per se; you set the =
*TCP connection* to use the DSCP of the first UDP packet.

        &=
nbsp;     - IP fragmentation =
control needs to be explained in terms of UDP interactions
 
[TR] Yes, =
DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message is used to set the DF bit in =
the outgoing IP header to 1. What specific change are you expecting =
?

Again, you=E2=80=99re talking about building a =
network layer packet header. The point is that you should be describing =
this in terms of =E2=80=9Csetting the UDP packet to not fragment=E2=80=9D.=
 That is NOT merely IP DF=3D1; that would only prevent *in-network* =
fragmentation. You need to tell UDP not to source fragment =
too.

And all of this should be =
described in a way that doesn=E2=80=99t imply that the only approach is =
to have the user build the packet all the way to the IP =
headers.

Here=E2=80=99s why it =
matters - an IPv4 packet can *already be source fragmented* and still =
have the individual fragments set DF=3D0. DF=3D0 just means the =
*network* should not sub-fragment what it receives, not that the packet =
is =E2=80=9Catomic=E2=80=9D (not fragmented a the source AND not =
fragmentable by the network)

        &=
nbsp;     - IPv6 fragmentation =
has nothing to do with the received packet (which is TCP
 
[TR] Same =
as above,  DONT-FRAGMENT attribute in the TURN message is used to =
set the DF bit in the outgoing IP header to =
1.

The =
server doesn=E2=80=99t ignore the the fragment fields of the received =
packets; it uses them to reassemble (by the IP stack). They are ignored =
in terms of whether to set the *transport* to avoid UDP using source =
fragmentation. Again, though, this isn=E2=80=99t about setting IP header =
fields.


        &=
nbsp;     - IP options are *as =
default*; it=E2=80=99 isn=E2=80=99t correct that you never use IP =
options (or are you actively disabling them?)
        &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;         NOTE: that goes for =
the direct IPv4 to IPv6 translation in section 4 (which is similarly =
problematic)
 
[TR]   I am not aware of default IPv4 options and =
extension headers, and I don=E2=80=99t see any default IPv4 options =
discussed inhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6274. What IP4 options and =
IPv6 extension headers are default =
?

By =
=E2=80=9Cdefault=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m referring to system-wide =
configurations to use particular IP options. Your description appears to =
prevent their use; are you actively prohibiting all IP options? Even =
system-wide defaults, if so configured?

          =
RTP/RTCP do not use any IPv4 options and IPv6 extension headers. What is =
the loss of functionality if IP options and extension headers are not =
set by the TURN server for outgoing UDP packets to the peer =
?

You =
would be expecting the transport to override a system-wide network =
default, which may not be possible on some systems.

You can probably just say =E2=80=9Cuse system =
defaults=E2=80=9D.

15.2 UDP to TCP
        &=
nbsp;     - the last sentence =
of the second paragraph seems at odds with the first; the first says =
=E2=80=9Cset these once per connection=E2=80=9D, it is sufficient =
IMO.
 
[TR] =
Okay, removed the last sentence of the second paragraph.
 
        &=
nbsp;     -TCP DSCP should be =
based on the *first* UDP value seen (it could vary)
 
[TR] No, =
the client first establishes TCP connection with the server and =
exchanges TURN messages for allocation and permission, UDP packets can =
only be sent by the peer after permission is created. Please seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7657#section-5.3<=
/div>

OK, =
but then you need to say *in this section* how you expect to set the TCP =
DSCP. The text is confusing - it talks about =E2=80=9Cserver-to-client=E2=80=
=9D matching =E2=80=9Cclient-to-server=E2=80=9D - that=E2=80=99s just =
the other direction of the same TCP connection. If you are referring to =
other endpoints or transport protocols, be specific and =
clear. 

 
Cheers,
-Tiru
 
        &=
nbsp;     - same issue with IP =
extension headers and options (presumably you use the default
 
Joe


On Jun 19, 2019, at 8:14 =
AM, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> wrote:
 
Hi Joe,
 
The IPv4 and IPv6 fragmentation =
description is specific to TCP-to-UDP relaying between the client and =
the peer (only for TCP-to-UDP relay, the DF attribute in the TURN =
message will be used to set the DF bit in the outgoing UDP packet to the =
peer). To avoid confusion, I have added two new sub-sections:
15.1.  IP Header Fields for TCP-to-UDP relaying and 15.2 =
IP Header Fields for UDP-to-TCP relaying
 
Please see the attached updated =
draft.
 
Cheers,
-Tiru
_______________________________________________
Tsv-art mailing list
Tsv-art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art<=
/div>
=

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch 
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
        Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Alan Johnston
                          Philip Matthews
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt
	Pages           : 90
	Date            : 2019-06-23

Abstract:
   If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
   be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
   (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
   the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
   relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
   Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
   operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
   the relay.  TURN differs from other relay control protocols in that
   it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single
   relay address.

   The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
   (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
   though it also can be used without ICE.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt
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This revision https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26 addres=
ses comments from Joe (Tsv-art) and Vijay (Gen-art review).

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram  On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2019 12:50 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the
> IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay=
 Extensions
> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
>         Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Alan Johnston
>                           Philip Matthews
>                           Jonathan Rosenberg
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26.txt
> 	Pages           : 90
> 	Date            : 2019-06-23
>=20
> Abstract:
>    If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
>    be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
>    (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
>    the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
>    relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
>    Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
>    operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
>    the relay.  TURN differs from other relay control protocols in that
>    it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single
>    relay address.
>=20
>    The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
>    (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
>    though it also can be used without ICE.
>=20
>    This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-26
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> tram@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tram


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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 18:36:38 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
Cc: Joe Touch , Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Sorry to jump in and hijack the middle of a different thread, but...

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 01:24:42PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> 
> I have added the following lines to address your comment:
> 
>    TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN
>    because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols
>    [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If the TCP connection
>    between the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, the
>    client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
>    confidentially, message authentication and replay protection to
>    protect the application data relayed from the server to the peer
>    using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed in

... this kind of cross-layer security requirement ("if you were using
TCP-layer protection, now you have to impose a requirement on the
application protocol (stack) at a higher layer") has been quite problematic
in the past when attempted for other protocols.  Consider this early
warning that it will get a careful security area review during IESG
evaluation, if not sooner.  Being very specific about which component of
the system has what requirements under which conditions would be helpful,
as a start.

-Ben

>    Section 20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
>    Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does
>    not support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout [RFC5482]
>    equivalent for application data relayed by the TURN is the use of RTP
>    control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, RTCP is a fundamental and
>    integral part of RTP.


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: Joe Touch , Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , Brandon Williams , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:07 AM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
> Cc: Joe Touch ; Magnus Westerlund
> ; tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-
> turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams
> ; tram@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-=
turnbis-
> 25
>=20
> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link=
s or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
>=20
> Sorry to jump in and hijack the middle of a different thread, but...
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 01:24:42PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > I have added the following lines to address your comment:
> >
> >    TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN
> >    because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols
> >    [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If the TCP connection
> >    between the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, the
> >    client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
> >    confidentially, message authentication and replay protection to
> >    protect the application data relayed from the server to the peer
> >    using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed
> > in
>=20
> ... this kind of cross-layer security requirement ("if you were using TCP=
-layer
> protection, now you have to impose a requirement on the application
> protocol (stack) at a higher layer") has been quite problematic in the pa=
st
> when attempted for other protocols.  Consider this early warning that it =
will
> get a careful security area review during IESG evaluation, if not sooner.=
  Being
> very specific about which component of the system has what requirements
> under which conditions would be helpful, as a start.

Good point. I did not think from that angle, will re-phrase the text as fol=
lows  :

TCP connection between the TURN client and server can use TCP-AO [RFC5925] =
but UDP does not provide a similar type of authentication until UDP support=
s authentication option. Regardless of whether TCP-AO is used or not, In or=
der to defend against various attacks against the application data (attacke=
r attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed Section 20.1.4) , the clien=
t must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP).=20

Cheers,
-Tiru

>=20
> -Ben
>=20
> >    Section 20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
> >    Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does
> >    not support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout [RFC5482=
]
> >    equivalent for application data relayed by the TURN is the use of RT=
P
> >    control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, RTCP is a fundamental and
> >    integral part of RTP.


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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: "kaduk@mit.edu" , "TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com" 
CC: "touch@strayalpha.com" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2019 12:27:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Hi,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> Sent: den 25 juni 2019 01:37
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy 
> Cc: Joe Touch ; Magnus Westerlund
> ; tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-
> turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams
> ; tram@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of
draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-
> 25
> 
> Sorry to jump in and hijack the middle of a different thread, but...
> 
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 01:24:42PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> wrote:
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > I have added the following lines to address your comment:
> >
> >    TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN
> >    because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocols
> >    [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If the TCP connection
> >    between the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, the
> >    client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
> >    confidentially, message authentication and replay protection to
> >    protect the application data relayed from the server to the peer
> >    using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed
> > in
> 
> ... this kind of cross-layer security requirement ("if you were using
TCP-layer
> protection, now you have to impose a requirement on the application
> protocol (stack) at a higher layer") has been quite problematic in the
past
> when attempted for other protocols.  Consider this early warning that it
will
> get a careful security area review during IESG evaluation, if not sooner.
Being
> very specific about which component of the system has what requirements
> under which conditions would be helpful, as a start.

And I think this requirement is backwards. Application of TCP-AO or TLS does
not result in an improved security property for the higher layer that
utilizes TURN. That is still regular IP/UDP datagram payloads in this
version. There is nothing in this specification that gives you anything
better on the server to peer leg. Thus, application of TLS/TCP or TCP-AO on
the client to server leg is only to mitigate some threats on this client to
server leg, potentially making it more robust. 

Thus, I would suggest that this requirement is removed. And instead it is
explained that the actual upper layer security properties are not improved
simply the client server leg is less vulnerable to certain attacks. 

/Magnus
> 
> -Ben
> 
> >    Section 20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
> >    Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does
> >    not support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout [RFC5482]
> >    equivalent for application data relayed by the TURN is the use of RTP
> >    control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, RTCP is a fundamental and
> >    integral part of RTP.

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--_000_060C02FE963646C9A4AAFCB65C35E8B5ciscocom_--


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Magnus Westerlund , "kaduk@mit.edu" 
CC: "touch@strayalpha.com" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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As per the suggestion from Magnus, modified text as follows:

TCP connection between the TURN client and server can use TCP-AO [RFC5925] =
but UDP does not provide a similar type of authentication until UDP support=
s
authentication option.  If TCP-AO would be used between TURN client and ser=
ver, it would not change the end-to-end security properties of
the UDP payload being relayed.  Therefore applications using TURN will need=
 to secure their application data end-to-end appropriately, e.g.  SRTP for =
RTP applications. =20

Cheers,
-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus Westerlund 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2019 5:58 PM
> To: kaduk@mit.edu; Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> 
> Cc: touch@strayalpha.com; tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-
> turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; brandon.williams@akamai.com;
> tram@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-=
turnbis-
> 25
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Benjamin Kaduk 
> > Sent: den 25 juni 2019 01:37
> > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> 
> > Cc: Joe Touch ; Magnus Westerlund
> > ; tsv-art@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tram-
> > turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org; Brandon Williams
> > ; tram@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of
> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-
> > 25
> >
> > Sorry to jump in and hijack the middle of a different thread, but...
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 01:24:42PM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Joe,
> > >
> > > I have added the following lines to address your comment:
> > >
> > >    TCP multi-path [RFC6824] is not supported by this version of TURN
> > >    because TCP multi-path is not used by both SIP and WebRTC protocol=
s
> > >    [RFC7478] for media and non-media data.  If the TCP connection
> > >    between the TURN client and server uses TCP-AO [RFC5925] or TLS, t=
he
> > >    client must secure application data (e.g. using SRTP) to provide
> > >    confidentially, message authentication and replay protection to
> > >    protect the application data relayed from the server to the peer
> > >    using UDP.  Attacker attempting to spoof in fake data is discussed
> > > in
> >
> > ... this kind of cross-layer security requirement ("if you were using
> TCP-layer
> > protection, now you have to impose a requirement on the application
> > protocol (stack) at a higher layer") has been quite problematic in the
> past
> > when attempted for other protocols.  Consider this early warning that i=
t
> will
> > get a careful security area review during IESG evaluation, if not soone=
r.
> Being
> > very specific about which component of the system has what requirements
> > under which conditions would be helpful, as a start.
>=20
> And I think this requirement is backwards. Application of TCP-AO or TLS d=
oes
> not result in an improved security property for the higher layer that
> utilizes TURN. That is still regular IP/UDP datagram payloads in this
> version. There is nothing in this specification that gives you anything
> better on the server to peer leg. Thus, application of TLS/TCP or TCP-AO =
on
> the client to server leg is only to mitigate some threats on this client =
to
> server leg, potentially making it more robust.
>=20
> Thus, I would suggest that this requirement is removed. And instead it is
> explained that the actual upper layer security properties are not improve=
d
> simply the client server leg is less vulnerable to certain attacks.
>=20
> /Magnus
> >
> > -Ben
> >
> > >    Section 20.1.4.  Note that TCP-AO option obsoletes TCP MD5 option.
> > >    Unlike UDP, TCP without the TCP Fast Open extension [RFC7413] does
> > >    not support 0-RTT session resumption.  The TCP user timeout [RFC54=
82]
> > >    equivalent for application data relayed by the TURN is the use of =
RTP
> > >    control protocol (RTCP).  As a reminder, RTCP is a fundamental and
> > >    integral part of RTP.


From nobody Wed Jun 26 06:37:56 2019
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:37:36 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "touch@strayalpha.com" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:32:48AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy wrote:
> As per the suggestion from Magnus, modified text as follows:
> 
> TCP connection between the TURN client and server can use TCP-AO [RFC5925] but UDP does not provide a similar type of authentication until UDP supports
> authentication option.  If TCP-AO would be used between TURN client and server, it would not change the end-to-end security properties of
> the UDP payload being relayed.  Therefore applications using TURN will need to secure their application data end-to-end appropriately, e.g.  SRTP for RTP applications.  

That looks better; thanks!  (And thanks to Magnus for noticing!)

-Ben


From nobody Wed Jun 26 08:26:05 2019
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From: Joe Touch 
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 08:25:27 -0700
Cc: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" , Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" ,  "ietf@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Minor suggestions:

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Benjamin Kaduk  wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:32:48AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy =
wrote:
>> As per the suggestion from Magnus, modified text as follows:
>>=20
>> TCP connection between the TURN client and server can use TCP-AO =
[RFC5925] but UDP does not provide a similar type of authentication =
until UDP supports
>> authentication option. =20

(an equivalent? a similar?) and cite draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options

>> If TCP-AO would be used between TURN client and server, it would not =
change the end-to-end security properties of

Even if both TCP-AO and UDP authentication were both used between...

>> the UDP payload being relayed.
>>  Therefore applications using TURN will need to secure their =
application data end-to-end appropriately, e.g.  SRTP for RTP =
applications.=20

Joe=


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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: Joe Touch , Benjamin Kaduk 
CC: Magnus Westerlund , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Thanks Jon, will update draft.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Touch 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2019 8:55 PM
> To: Benjamin Kaduk 
> Cc: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy ;
> Magnus Westerlund ; tsv-art@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org; ietf@ietf.org;
> brandon.williams@akamai.com; tram@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-=
turnbis-
> 25
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Minor suggestions:
>=20
> > On Jun 26, 2019, at 6:37 AM, Benjamin Kaduk  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 10:32:48AM +0000, Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> wrote:
> >> As per the suggestion from Magnus, modified text as follows:
> >>
> >> TCP connection between the TURN client and server can use TCP-AO
> >> [RFC5925] but UDP does not provide a similar type of authentication un=
til
> UDP supports authentication option.
>=20
> (an equivalent? a similar?) and cite draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options
>=20
> >> If TCP-AO would be used between TURN client and server, it would not
> >> change the end-to-end security properties of
>=20
> Even if both TCP-AO and UDP authentication were both used between...
>=20
> >> the UDP payload being relayed.
> >>  Therefore applications using TURN will need to secure their applicati=
on
> data end-to-end appropriately, e.g.  SRTP for RTP applications.
>=20
> Joe


From nobody Wed Jun 26 20:14:12 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay Extensions to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
        Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
                          Alan Johnston
                          Philip Matthews
                          Jonathan Rosenberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27.txt
	Pages           : 91
	Date            : 2019-06-26

Abstract:
   If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
   be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
   (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
   the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
   relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
   Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
   operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
   the relay.  TURN differs from other relay control protocols in that
   it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single
   relay address.

   The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
   (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
   though it also can be used without ICE.

   This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Jun 26 20:19:32 2019
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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" 
To: "tram@ietf.org" , Benjamin Kaduk , "Magnus Westerlund" , Joe Touch 
Thread-Topic: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27.txt
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Subject: Re: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27.txt
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This revision addresses comment from Ben.

-Tiru

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tram  On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2019 8:44 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: tram@ietf.org
> Subject: [tram] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27.txt
>=20
> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click link=
s or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the TURN Revised and Modernized WG of the
> IETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Traversal Using Relays around NAT (TURN): Relay=
 Extensions
> to Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN)
>         Authors         : Tirumaleswar Reddy
>                           Alan Johnston
>                           Philip Matthews
>                           Jonathan Rosenberg
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27.txt
> 	Pages           : 91
> 	Date            : 2019-06-26
>=20
> Abstract:
>    If a host is located behind a NAT, then in certain situations it can
>    be impossible for that host to communicate directly with other hosts
>    (peers).  In these situations, it is necessary for the host to use
>    the services of an intermediate node that acts as a communication
>    relay.  This specification defines a protocol, called TURN (Traversal
>    Using Relays around NAT), that allows the host to control the
>    operation of the relay and to exchange packets with its peers using
>    the relay.  TURN differs from other relay control protocols in that
>    it allows a client to communicate with multiple peers using a single
>    relay address.
>=20
>    The TURN protocol was designed to be used as part of the ICE
>    (Interactive Connectivity Establishment) approach to NAT traversal,
>    though it also can be used without ICE.
>=20
>    This document obsoletes RFC 5766 and RFC 6156.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tram-turnbis-27
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
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> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
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> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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> _______________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:00:12 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk 
To: "Felipe Garrido (fegarrid)" 
Cc: "iesg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "tasveren@rbbn.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [tram] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Felipe,

Thanks for following up -- it looks like I filed away the original mail
without responding to it, somehow(!)
The Discuss point's resolution is fine; I just have one more question
(inline).

-Ben

On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 04:01:58AM +0000, Felipe Garrido (fegarrid) wrote:
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> Just following up on my previous email. Let me know if the below response satisfies your comments.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Felipe
> 
> From: "Felipe Garrido (fegarrid)" 
> Date: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 11:59 AM
> To: "kaduk@mit.edu" , "iesg@ietf.org" 
> Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "tram-chairs@ietf.org" , "tasveren@rbbn.com" , "tram@ietf.org" 
> Subject: Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
> 
> Hi Benjamin,
> 
> Apologies for the delay in responding, the current authors are having scheduling conflicts and have added me to address the current concerns. Please see my responses inline.
> 
> thanks
> -Felipe
> 
> 
> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud-10: Discuss
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I was going to report the same thing as Adam, but will just say that I support his Discuss.
> [FG]: I’ll be addressing this Discuss in Adam’s feedback.
> 
> I also have one other (also minor and easy to resolve) Discuss point:  Section 4.2.6 needs
> to state what the Length field is measuring the length of.
> [FG]: Agree that this is required. Adding the following text to Section 4.2.6.
> “The Length field specifies the length in bytes of the sequence number and application data fields.”
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I understand that this document inherently has to be incomplete and "vague",
> since the procedure specified within is only meaningful in the context of a
> STUN usage or other protocol.  But in general it seems like there could be
> greater clarity even within the constraints that we must work under.  My
> points are probably less interesting than the ones Adam raised already, though.
> The only general observation in this space that I can offer is that some parts of
> the text read as if only the Probe packets are going to be monitored for the
> report (but this is clearly not the case given the document as a whole).
> 
> Section 4.2
> 
>   The Complete Probing mechanism is implemented by sending one or more
>   Probe Indications with a PADDING attribute over UDP with the DF bit
>   set in the IP header followed by a Report Request to the same server.
>   A router on the path to the server can reject this Indication with an
>   ICMP message or drop it.
> 
> nit: I don't think "this" is the right word; perhaps "each" would be
> better.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree, updates will be made.
> 
> Section 4.2.3
> 
>   A server supporting this specification will keep the identifiers of
>   all packets received in a chronologically ordered list.  The packets
>   that are to be associated to a list are selected according to
>   Section 5.2 of [RFC4821].  [...]
> 
> 4821 doesn't talk about "list"s at all, and in fact the indicated section
> seems to be talking more about where to store a PMTU value after it has
> been determined, rather than what packets to be considering for a report.
> So I'm pretty confused about what this sentence is trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree. Updated wording to make the statement easier to read.
> “The selection process specified in Section 5.2 of [RFC4821] is to be used to determine whether a packet is added with a list.”

I still don't understand what "the selection process specified in Section
5.2 of [RFC4821]" is -- can you point me to the text from RFC 4821
describing the process in question?

> Section 4.2.4
> 
> nit: I think that all instances of "the Probe Indication" should be
> replaced with "a Probe Indication", in this section.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree, updates will be made.
> 
> Section 4.2.5
> 
>   When using a checksum as a packet identifier, the client calculates
>   the checksum for each packet sent over UDP that is not a STUN Probe
>   Indication or Request and keeps this checksum in a chronologically
>   ordered list.  The client also keeps the checksum of the STUN Probe
>   Indication or Request sent in that same chronologically ordered list.
>   The algorithm used to calculate the checksum is similar to the
>   algorithm used for the FINGERPRINT attribute (i.e., the CRC-32 of the
>   payload XOR'ed with the 32-bit value 0x5354554e [ITU.V42.2002]).
> 
> (editorial) It's pretty confusing to start out with the split between STUN
> and non-STUN messages, only later to clarify that this is because the
> FINGERPRINT is used for STUN messages.  So maybe:
> 
>  When using a checksum as a packet identifier, the client keeps a
>  chronologically ordered list of the packets it transmits, along with an
>  associated checksum value.  For STUN Probe Indication or Request packets,
>  the associated checksum value is the FINGERPRINT value from the packet; for
>  other packets a checksum value is computed using a similar algorithm to the
>  FINGERPRINT calculation.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree with changing of the language. It doesn’t change the content and easier to read.
> 
> Section 4.2.6
> 
>   When using sequence numbers, a small header similar to the TURN
>   ChannelData header [...]
> 
> Probably want an informative reference for this header.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree, updates will be made to reference.
> Section 6.2
> 
> 6.2.  PMTUD-SUPPORTED
> 
>   The PMTUD-SUPPORTED attribute indicates that its sender supports this
>   specification.  This attribute has no value part and thus the
>   attribute length field is 0.
> 
> "this specification" is not sufficiently detailed to interoperate, so I
> think this needs to be qualified as more like "supports this mechanism, as
> incorporated into the STUN usage or protocol being used".
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree, updates will be made.
> 
> Section 7
> 
> The contents of the PADDING do not seem to be specified anywhere, so it
> could in theory be used as a side channel to convey other information,
> which has some potential privacy considerations.  Nowadays we tend to ask
> for the value of the padding bytes to be deterministic (but validation
> remains optional); I forget if there are STUN-specific considerations that
> would discourage just setting them all to zero.
> 
> 
> 
> [FG]: Agree.  Adding language to state contents of PADDING.
> “The padding bits MUST be set to zero on sending and MUST be ignored by the receiver.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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From: Magnus Westerlund 
To: "touch@strayalpha.com" , "kaduk@mit.edu" 
CC: "ietf@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" , "TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com" , "draft-ietf-tram-turnbis.all@ietf.org" , "brandon.williams@akamai.com" 
Thread-Topic: [Tsv-art] [tram] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
Thread-Index: AQHVJeK7XPnFjcA1ZUeEfurtBnFtm6ai+O8AgAiGoQCAANVtUIABdDwAgAAzogCAAB4igIAA97KA
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:40:22 +0000
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References:        <20190624233637.GF48838@kduck.mit.edu>   <20190626133736.GA18345@kduck.mit.edu> 
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Subject: Re: [tram] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-tram-turnbis-25
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Joe,

Are you satisfied with the changes in version -26 and -27 so that we
can proceed to IESG evaluation?=20

cheers

Magnus

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Yes.=20

Joe

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 12:40 AM, Magnus Westerlund  wrote:
>=20
> Joe,
>=20
> Are you satisfied with the changes in version -26 and -27 so that we
> can proceed to IESG evaluation?=20
>=20
> cheers
>=20
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art


From nobody Thu Jun 27 07:34:58 2019
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Yes.=20

Joe

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 12:40 AM, Magnus Westerlund  wrote:
>=20
> Joe,
>=20
> Are you satisfied with the changes in version -26 and -27 so that we
> can proceed to IESG evaluation?=20
>=20
> cheers
>=20
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> Tsv-art mailing list
> Tsv-art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art