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Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:03:30 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "petithug@acm.org" , "danwing@gmail.com" CC: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud Thread-Index: AQHV/qEUazBlC9kCmUKS31LQB6zF86hRnXaAgACL1gCAAQ+mAIADHIoAgArQcICAAwcrgA== Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:03:30 +0000 Message-ID: <458f3f896e7f8a913aaa09ba3be63b6a71e1b3e8.camel@ericsson.com> References: <4fe71c73687e94e7256b8b5a311dd82c65df6be0.camel@ericsson.com> <0835E458-538D-4713-9238-7F2A241FAE1C@gmail.com> <55b50d50-472a-ab1b-4b71-3801d84ab23e@acm.org> <2dac6e94-3e49-2ed3-c777-3cb3ca159d93@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <2dac6e94-3e49-2ed3-c777-3cb3ca159d93@acm.org> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Evolution 3.28.5-0ubuntu0.18.04.1 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.118.23] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1aed6261-8e2a-48d7-7d47-08d7d62c5023 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VI1PR0702MB3840: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-NziVBeffh4UV9n0v5MNT" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1aed6261-8e2a-48d7-7d47-08d7d62c5023 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Apr 2020 11:03:30.6683 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 9ial5ywHFH/XfsA3NhXAfz+3cGu+IVSnAuKnuXrCc20/rtzexm1TQfNg32rMm1dwoZWba6vYiFROeBFXiQ+WOXUz2jyfuYjAU5IpQ/aq1dg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0702MB3840 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 11:03:35 -0000 --=-NziVBeffh4UV9n0v5MNT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 05:49 -0700, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > Hi Magnus, >=20 > On 3/23/20 8:40 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > Hi Marc, > >=20 > > Yes, you are correct that draft-ietf-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud has a speci= fic > > scope. It is targeting a single path used by the transport protocol bet= ween > > two > > peers. When you go beyond that use case the document may not give you > > answers. > > The TSVWG needs to discuss your last call comments.=20 > >=20 > > If the goal of the usage is different than finding the actual working P= MTU > > for > > the current packet flow then other considerations come into play. And y= es, > > the > > protocol definitions in the stun-pmtud document could be used for a > > different > > purpose. I think you even can implement the tie in without really makin= g it > > more > > complicated for another document to use the STUN-PMTUD mechanism.=20 >=20 > I think that the reasonable thing to do in stun-pmtud is to consider tsvw= g- > datagram-plpmtud as just one algorithm of what RFC 4821 permits. We need= to > add how stun-pmtud is answering the points in 6.1, probably in a new sect= ion > by itself. I think that is fine. What I am really where asking for was to ensure that = it is clear how one use stun-pmtud as a packetization layer for the algorithm int= svwg-datagram-plpmtud.=20 >=20 > >=20 > > Marc, can you uplevel the below desription from mechanisms to what you = see > > as > > goals with the proposal. Soley as a tool for investigation, or as mech= anism > > for > > diagnostics, measurements or probing what capabilities exists prior to > > actual > > demand for its usage?=20 >=20 > That proposal is purely for collecting results on various PLPMTUD algorit= hms > for UDP protocols, to be able to make informed decisions in a future vers= ion > of RFC 4821. Another questions I could not find answers to is how often = does > a PMTU change in the network. A tool based on that proposal would help > collect answers for that too. >=20 > A tool implemented on top of that proposal would: >=20 > - Implement the protocol in the proposal itself, to allocate a port and > collect reports. > - Implement as many PLPMTUD algorithms as possible on the client side. > - Implement as many UDP protocol behaviors as possible on the client side= (on > the server side, the UDP packets are simply dropped). By behavior, I mea= n how > regular packets are generated and sent to the other side (basically > establishing size and timing patterns). >=20 > Then the client can continuously try the cartesian product of the PLPMTUD > algorithms and the UDP protocol patterns on a set of servers that impleme= nt > the protocol proposed. With enough clients and servers we could get some= hard > numbers on the reality of PLPMTUD. I think this is an interesting research question that can greatly benefit f= uture evolution of the IETF recommendations. However, I don't see a need for publication in an standards track document to document more then the basic building blocks. And are you actually proposing any changes to the current document that relates to the above?=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-NziVBeffh4UV9n0v5MNT Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD QSB2MzAeFw0xNzEyMTUwNzIyMjNaFw0yMDEyMTUwNzIyMjJaMHAxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNzc29u 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Received: from implementers.org (unknown [92.243.22.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 985A83A094B; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 04:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:842b:f0ce:5d32:93a] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:842b:f0ce:5d32:93a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 013DEAE00A; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 13:19:19 +0200 (CEST) To: Magnus Westerlund , "danwing@gmail.com" Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" References: <4fe71c73687e94e7256b8b5a311dd82c65df6be0.camel@ericsson.com> <0835E458-538D-4713-9238-7F2A241FAE1C@gmail.com> <55b50d50-472a-ab1b-4b71-3801d84ab23e@acm.org> <2dac6e94-3e49-2ed3-c777-3cb3ca159d93@acm.org> <458f3f896e7f8a913aaa09ba3be63b6a71e1b3e8.camel@ericsson.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Autocrypt: addr=petithug@acm.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE6Mh9wBEADrUEDZChteJbQtsHwZITZExr7TAqT7pniNwhBX3nFgd+FrV3lsLKJ1rym2 52MAYpubXEJZGzMp6uCCAnROWbtmQbOm8z/jHnjxHhPqfuYCYPpAQqu8K/Sc194Rp37krMwB jz32yr7+gvWLzRgQGKIh9d2mzy8QLMETVWWQWGb6fEfpOxXo0wumN1rc/275kZwOu44JIPGg zbgwZdnEqYOUUa18K9MXeRDoWbwDISP30CvKuZDwD14lbBE3o7tBQrU9uoMhE7eFlTjbsCox qoubI2tZSuOTF8mRXjPmNrRGtf9mYkQnOB7y6qy/QxmOVMq4IRtHzOYIm/EZ6NTodcpZQHOM 2v6B6YK9uKrYrapSpJzn4f9oU7alT31Y3o2hOlxAWDQ16+Dd1MOPYsKQXOwY1/ihm4PTjiJ8 ud8yPzy7c+BSVs5wkBU6QuLNIgZHrrxdn+KxM+F/oAVtfzO7XzVoeOcXyWi3/CHL5pgoBruY enIF/RrRuplpy09pvZjmFPNfqKBYJGnqpQuqsQwO7LsFqDqfY2EuHg+KsGN1XuN+jxXc48/1 gCnKw7ALSPWEb7g25wD6KfiZTAcyRTG8LePNFQKhw61LbIWmkw9EaVLyXvwPTc1iCSc0dDT/ pcT/z+8xrWOyWGZNZAjR584NlDpKollbItcxYtFcYZkvTCmOVwARAQABtCZNYXJjIFBldGl0 LUh1Z3VlbmluIDxwZXRpdGh1Z0BhY20ub3JnPokCOAQTAQgAIgIbIwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsRWqBAAu/61DGo+j38UefTKnEse0mftPBXa 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P6Ul9cjGVtXIs64FWqR9wrbwBH1GuIHhDmG9sN5AkyB9mxXaEG3uG4E6qQeedtIKC6p+ebAs aTGgztFWMJDC8LUznu7B0oyWxNVoE/RGt5mesOeAtqYr6Jtdh7unyk8BYP1y4e+SSMwvtwh+ 69tJwNhGYbOJrdX34tXNAKb6r/rFRjVJm+sPPs5ok7LddvV35o+Fho0LRNDsioDV3HytlhA= Message-ID: <43035d40-05ce-693c-eb88-04bf1f9617b2@acm.org> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 04:19:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <458f3f896e7f8a913aaa09ba3be63b6a71e1b3e8.camel@ericsson.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="SByMSLpNkAP8Ccniu9oAAQIH12cr5RGzG" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud X-BeenThere: tram@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussing the creation of a Turn Revised And Modernized \(TRAM\) WG, which goal is to consolidate the various initiatives to update TURN and STUN." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 11:19:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --SByMSLpNkAP8Ccniu9oAAQIH12cr5RGzG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="fApWk5bNYz3t6efHSMwseSOzTm05iuatf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Magnus Westerlund , "danwing@gmail.com" Cc: "draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud@ietf.org" , "tram@ietf.org" Message-ID: <43035d40-05ce-693c-eb88-04bf1f9617b2@acm.org> Subject: Re: [tram] The way forward for draft-ietf-tram-stun-pmtud References: <4fe71c73687e94e7256b8b5a311dd82c65df6be0.camel@ericsson.com> <0835E458-538D-4713-9238-7F2A241FAE1C@gmail.com> <55b50d50-472a-ab1b-4b71-3801d84ab23e@acm.org> <2dac6e94-3e49-2ed3-c777-3cb3ca159d93@acm.org> <458f3f896e7f8a913aaa09ba3be63b6a71e1b3e8.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <458f3f896e7f8a913aaa09ba3be63b6a71e1b3e8.camel@ericsson.com> --fApWk5bNYz3t6efHSMwseSOzTm05iuatf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Magnus, On 4/1/20 4:03 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 05:49 -0700, Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> Hi Magnus, >> >> On 3/23/20 8:40 AM, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Hi Marc, >>> >>> Yes, you are correct that draft-ietf-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud has a spe= cific >>> scope. It is targeting a single path used by the transport protocol b= etween >>> two >>> peers. When you go beyond that use case the document may not give you= >>> answers. >>> The TSVWG needs to discuss your last call comments.=20 >>> >>> If the goal of the usage is different than finding the actual working= PMTU >>> for >>> the current packet flow then other considerations come into play. And= yes, >>> the >>> protocol definitions in the stun-pmtud document could be used for a >>> different >>> purpose. I think you even can implement the tie in without really mak= ing it >>> more >>> complicated for another document to use the STUN-PMTUD mechanism.=20 >> >> I think that the reasonable thing to do in stun-pmtud is to consider t= svwg- >> datagram-plpmtud as just one algorithm of what RFC 4821 permits. We n= eed to >> add how stun-pmtud is answering the points in 6.1, probably in a new s= ection >> by itself. >=20 > I think that is fine. What I am really where asking for was to ensure t= hat it is > clear how one use stun-pmtud as a packetization layer for the algorithm= intsvwg-datagram-plpmtud.=20 That's definitively the plan we put together in our recurrent authors cal= l last Monday. Expect a new version of stun-pmtud soon. >=20 >> >>> >>> Marc, can you uplevel the below desription from mechanisms to what yo= u see >>> as >>> goals with the proposal. Soley as a tool for investigation, or as me= chanism >>> for >>> diagnostics, measurements or probing what capabilities exists prior t= o >>> actual >>> demand for its usage?=20 >> >> That proposal is purely for collecting results on various PLPMTUD algo= rithms >> for UDP protocols, to be able to make informed decisions in a future v= ersion >> of RFC 4821. Another questions I could not find answers to is how oft= en does >> a PMTU change in the network. A tool based on that proposal would hel= p >> collect answers for that too. >> >> A tool implemented on top of that proposal would: >> >> - Implement the protocol in the proposal itself, to allocate a port an= d >> collect reports. >> - Implement as many PLPMTUD algorithms as possible on the client side.= >> - Implement as many UDP protocol behaviors as possible on the client s= ide (on >> the server side, the UDP packets are simply dropped). By behavior, I = mean how >> regular packets are generated and sent to the other side (basically >> establishing size and timing patterns). >> >> Then the client can continuously try the cartesian product of the PLPM= TUD >> algorithms and the UDP protocol patterns on a set of servers that impl= ement >> the protocol proposed. With enough clients and servers we could get s= ome hard >> numbers on the reality of PLPMTUD. >=20 > I think this is an interesting research question that can greatly benef= it future > evolution of the IETF recommendations. However, I don't see a need for > publication in an standards track document to document more then the ba= sic > building blocks. And are you actually proposing any changes to the curr= ent > document that relates to the above?=20 No, if I see some interest in that proposal (which is not the case curren= tly) I'll write a separate draft. Thanks. --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --fApWk5bNYz3t6efHSMwseSOzTm05iuatf-- --SByMSLpNkAP8Ccniu9oAAQIH12cr5RGzG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAl6EeLUACgkQKcRFldZq fsQRIg//deOAMb3kpf09fNR5SAoouijy3WX/Dy4+CH1tcayhyETBoRhtTdwhBbCU x5FodylMP2Be+yK0nUzGD/Qe1WIJbHaIhrRurCgJiDwVpL+7oKeGebvg8vYFm0AN 4YrCPDPUIU/5Jn5FyzFFqWJw44FTcNmWOxT3YZziBdvpTyv9XhyVlrqdVua+8AtD VnRBahRRu/L1+JtEa5bIkQCAYnI8ZzBhTMNJrE7oFts1dITyGamRqviYZ1HnhZYa jHouU3xliD4BcbHF4+6VDGlIcPAA2eeWvelEith/+ac3GLKQbeso5nb45Ng44bA/ ++8fNP1goCbD0sJauxAI2Sl2id/LB+ok+2VVLxAHpmjz3vTqeYEk3ezaCZ8SYpIZ WjF23LDkhetwkzr1FVCB+wLJ41/ynTNot5MgAwDGkaDCTV0hAM9O9lVmA7qVe2uN PQuBKPrD4iE36/HP45PIDMJaOjPcBK+kKHaf+2x0g4VRVxe+ZkbuLTvIzg+ZRHXg qPZkRzS4K/81/PU2wHD1mqg1lSdoWZsz/KH2kwMJ/lEZH+EWZxN88n6j10lTMQJM 0gx3KgRc07hYxvug2bumdjdpf5EX8of3OPmY6q4VAlzuLwer/Q7o/VaZf9vnrA1E ZESpMps6/bBB/BcXpyBvRa58O3PNcuhfCzOXWt0o/N4o6IW0Iys= =U8R4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SByMSLpNkAP8Ccniu9oAAQIH12cr5RGzG--