From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:56:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50989131192 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rto5ng5LwidG for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x230.google.com (mail-it0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD13E130E35 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x230.google.com with SMTP id v83-v6so12624338itc.3 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 08:56:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4DF9mN6Dlriu0OlHxrMmy/maTTDa9Wn/cnC42aYAhiI=; b=ARFRKHfUlTXWeHwi3OUgoVoDNIIH3Z+W7XICzmyYiiH3hKaBKL20nLu7OJMghyqstB E20gYLskGJVBwQJcOTBBdfREb8zz48o975mDX5Vgg6yCwbVnnn2g1viexb4/JVOnKhZd 7Ket3w72QKbq+n5xw9y/M0LZVwvizNQLoyQQxvjpWM8ZiJeMQvnuFlsjm/qEH4D2OfIi 5xafkbnEPeeCqP87OdYJEgwnTVg+LC2x6xp8UhkEbHr1L1tmUHlshafh5meSHkRm7Ox4 JbqZhEiGPBCj6+8Y3tY9SwDGi4QylPgR0r36hzXshZc1qmPq3eYQB3nPzvP9qthayq+R Wz0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4DF9mN6Dlriu0OlHxrMmy/maTTDa9Wn/cnC42aYAhiI=; b=Ve/2oVLNhV+HFUkXYeDLbdFWq2OSOBBaZI+G9fAfH9ZMmEt/wDf3+ug0iqiPrKGxg7 ty4R+AIvxPwv1pxDcK5ReafT46wUj3mDeWVgtfQvnKZDLBozJ1B+HVf0QIsDTR9NcPXL i2kWFVC9aZPqE50LN+0+4cIjOyZ9AEUEDnYFL8nk4JG6gEvs1YJMfTwAy+hX6jRW3ue/ WMYUQrUUZptVoHKY3PfdSYKHIQikHBUOLg7DshFMKU9L82mtPIsDMgp8KtsvQTTbm5Oc zEBVn87KWXUAo+oI4Han/Hil1bpl0HJETnCTg3R5ZT31KApQlwZ6aWWHxYYZZBd/2waN NO+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E2JDcMcCrKFI6f1+XW7+2iyM+q6hXkpmBSlYhjmwltE9P2F3+c0 uSP+NDu99bxs1tkUhEdM++JFnH+N4UA4XBKcNG0ZqKhpENw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfO9qEvXUBKpP4JLGnHoJ/A37z1NvdhhnHRRy3NSzwjcQ335rml5VJ2eBlkIg25sISiCqWAFlY26wOXTrFNUR4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:88f6:: with SMTP id b51-v6mr21861986jak.64.1530546967659; Mon, 02 Jul 2018 08:56:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17e72fce-ba3a-5832-5568-fff3b4330dc2@KingsMountain.com> In-Reply-To: <17e72fce-ba3a-5832-5568-fff3b4330dc2@KingsMountain.com> From: Ben Laurie Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:55:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: "=JeffH" Cc: trans@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005241a10570063c62" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] fyi: Bandwidth-efficient Transparency Logs via Append-only Authenticated Dictionaries (AAD) X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:56:12 -0000 --0000000000005241a10570063c62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Someone should ask him: https://people.csail.mit.edu/alinush/. On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 16:07, =JeffH wrote: > of possible topical interest. I could not find the paper, perhaps it is > not published as yet... > > From: security-seminar > Date: Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 9:16 PM > To: > Subject: Tuesday, June 26 -- Aline Tomescu: Bandwidth-efficient > Transparency Logs via Append-only Authenticated Dictionaries > > > > Bandwidth-efficient Transparency Logs via Append-only > Authenticated Dictionaries > > Alin Tomescu > > Tuesday, June 26, 2018 > Talk at 4:15pm > Gates 463A, Stanford, CA > > Abstract: > > Transparency logs enable anyone to audit a potentially malicious > service, paving the way towards a more ac- countable Internet. For > example, Certificate Transparency (CT) enables domain owners to > audit Certificate Authorities (CAs) and detect impersonation. Yet > to achieve their full potential, transparency logs must be easily > auditable by everyone. Specifically, everyone should be able to > verify both (non)membership of log entries and that the log remains > append-only. Unfortunately, current transparency logs either provide > small-sized (non)membership proofs or small-sized append-only proofs, > but never both. In this paper, we formalize and instantiate a new > primitive called an append-only authenticated dictionary (AAD) that > addresses this gap. Our construction provides succinct proofs for both > (non)membership and append-only checks, solving an open problem in > the authenticated data structures literature. We believe AADs can > help scale transparency logs and add more accountability to today?s > Internet. > > Bio: > > Alin is a PhD candidate at MIT focusing on public-key distribution > for HTTPS and secure messaging. His interests lie at the intersection > of theory and practice: he enjoys applied cryptography and building > systems.Recently, Alin worked on Catena, a system that leverages > the Bitcoin blockchain to prevent equivocation attacks on public-key > directories. In the past, Alin has worked on privacy-preserving file > systems, private social networking and secure email. Alin's other > interests include cryptocurrencies, anonymous networks and distributed > systems in general. > > _______________________________________________ > Trans mailing list > Trans@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans > --0000000000005241a10570063c62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Someone should ask him:=C2=A0https://people.csail.mit.edu/alinush/.
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 16:07,= =3DJeffH <Jeff.Hodges@= kingsmountain.com> wrote:
of= possible topical interest. I could not find the paper, perhaps it is
not published as yet...

From: security-seminar <security-seminar-bounces@lists.stanford.ed= u>
Date: Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 9:16 PM
To: <security-seminar@lists.stanford.edu>
Subject: Tuesday, June 26 -- Aline Tomescu: Bandwidth-efficient
Transparency Logs via Append-only Authenticated Dictionaries



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bandwidth-efficient Transparency Logs via Append-only
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authenticate= d Dictionaries

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Alin Tomescu

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tuesd= ay, June 26, 2018
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Talk at 4:15pm
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gates 463A, Stanford, CA

Abstract:

Transparency logs enable anyone to audit a potentially malicious
service, paving the way towards a more ac- countable Internet. For
example, Certificate Transparency (CT) enables domain owners to
audit Certificate Authorities (CAs) and detect impersonation. Yet
to achieve their full potential, transparency logs must be easily
auditable by everyone. Specifically, everyone should be able to
verify both (non)membership of log entries and that the log remains
append-only. Unfortunately, current transparency logs either provide
small-sized (non)membership proofs or small-sized append-only proofs,
but never both. In this paper, we formalize and instantiate a new
primitive called an append-only authenticated dictionary (AAD) that
addresses this gap. Our construction provides succinct proofs for both
(non)membership and append-only checks, solving an open problem in
the authenticated data structures literature. We believe AADs can
help scale transparency logs and add more accountability to today?s
Internet.

Bio:

Alin is a PhD candidate at MIT focusing on public-key distribution
for HTTPS and secure messaging. His interests lie at the intersection
of theory and practice: he enjoys applied cryptography and building
systems.Recently, Alin worked on Catena, a system that leverages
the Bitcoin blockchain to prevent equivocation attacks on public-key
directories. In the past, Alin has worked on privacy-preserving file
systems, private social networking and secure email. Alin's other
interests include cryptocurrencies, anonymous networks and distributed
systems in general.

_______________________________________________
Trans mailing list
Trans@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans
--0000000000005241a10570063c62-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 09:11:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B594130FCE for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:11:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=andrewayer.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pbYEpkZSon92 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomson.beanwood.com (thomson.beanwood.com [18.220.42.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36E2E130ECA for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:11:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=andrewayer.name; s=beanwood20160511; t=1530547899; bh=1KwMgn4CEusWSonqOkDgLn/qiQcbNPap2s+Q6WmDG+4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=jL0ZsizR9d4IqxNh0ovYZZoFfHCmwxIshJwxDLaiX0SAINXRPNYs/HQXMeWRsuvt9 MNNusNxK1Mfty5L0qKd1CWxoYO9r82Fr+5VKPPX+kkSBQOQxpekPCyaxbKbAyHLNiL baGoXpJBwK0w46cI3Y7pfAgTypbChUZ9PeHKxCOZbjNAmnbE8wk+5Z8F16ITnhpJKa zxafJ319g9FwRoM8A0nQm3Ic4UHg2dFu1IhE9D0S9p1qtiZKqyslN0+jyU7mQ6vxXv GijE/rgaK5XHKn4jR+gi9Ry4b9wo+g9jP1eVTj7MfIQvMRjLJDj8pxfSSpmnfZRTh5 j9kLPYZvR/MMA== Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:11:38 -0700 From: Andrew Ayer To: Ben Laurie Cc: "=JeffH" , trans@ietf.org Message-Id: <20180702091138.bd68ac5fbd8c703e6e3ddc07@andrewayer.name> In-Reply-To: References: <17e72fce-ba3a-5832-5568-fff3b4330dc2@KingsMountain.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] fyi: Bandwidth-efficient Transparency Logs via Append-only Authenticated Dictionaries (AAD) X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 16:11:43 -0000 Thanks, Jeff, for forwarding this. I was able to attend. The paper is isn't published yet, but they're looking to publish soon. Regards, Andrew On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:55:55 +0100 Ben Laurie wrote: > Someone should ask him: https://people.csail.mit.edu/alinush/. > > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 at 16:07, =JeffH > wrote: > > > of possible topical interest. I could not find the paper, perhaps > > it is not published as yet... > > > > From: security-seminar > > Date: Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 9:16 PM > > To: > > Subject: Tuesday, June 26 -- Aline Tomescu: Bandwidth-efficient > > Transparency Logs via Append-only Authenticated Dictionaries > > > > > > > > Bandwidth-efficient Transparency Logs via Append-only > > Authenticated Dictionaries > > > > Alin Tomescu > > > > Tuesday, June 26, 2018 > > Talk at 4:15pm > > Gates 463A, Stanford, CA > > > > Abstract: > > > > Transparency logs enable anyone to audit a potentially malicious > > service, paving the way towards a more ac- countable Internet. For > > example, Certificate Transparency (CT) enables domain owners to > > audit Certificate Authorities (CAs) and detect impersonation. Yet > > to achieve their full potential, transparency logs must be easily > > auditable by everyone. Specifically, everyone should be able to > > verify both (non)membership of log entries and that the log remains > > append-only. Unfortunately, current transparency logs either provide > > small-sized (non)membership proofs or small-sized append-only > > proofs, but never both. In this paper, we formalize and instantiate > > a new primitive called an append-only authenticated dictionary > > (AAD) that addresses this gap. Our construction provides succinct > > proofs for both (non)membership and append-only checks, solving an > > open problem in the authenticated data structures literature. We > > believe AADs can help scale transparency logs and add more > > accountability to today?s Internet. > > > > Bio: > > > > Alin is a PhD candidate at MIT focusing on public-key distribution > > for HTTPS and secure messaging. His interests lie at the > > intersection of theory and practice: he enjoys applied cryptography > > and building systems.Recently, Alin worked on Catena, a system that > > leverages the Bitcoin blockchain to prevent equivocation attacks on > > public-key directories. In the past, Alin has worked on > > privacy-preserving file systems, private social networking and > > secure email. Alin's other interests include cryptocurrencies, > > anonymous networks and distributed systems in general. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trans mailing list > > Trans@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans > > From nobody Tue Jul 3 09:07:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietf.org Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E81131011; Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:00:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: ekr@rtfm.com, trans@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153063362773.4893.9719074311402847369.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:00:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Trans] trans - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:00:39 -0000 Dear Melinda Shore, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. trans Session 1 (1:00 requested) Thursday, 19 July 2018, Morning Session I 0930-1200 Room Name: Van Horne size: 130 --------------------------------------------- Special Note: 1100 - 1200 iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/trans.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Public Notary Transparency Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Melinda Shore Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 50 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: irtfopen ipsecme dnsop saag tls Second Priority: lamps cfrg People who must be present: Eric Rescorla Melinda Shore Paul Wouters Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please avoid scheduling us on Monday --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Jul 14 09:16:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285E01310DE for ; 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Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:16:40 +0000 From: Tim Hollebeek To: "Salz, Rich" , Paul Wouters , Trans Thread-Topic: [Trans] Next steps for 6962-bis Thread-Index: AQHUCLpprygBBPE9nUWj9NsXJBMyzKRrfAcAgCONzFA= Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4260F3FB-2919-4137-AB5A-506666E3D16D@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <4260F3FB-2919-4137-AB5A-506666E3D16D@akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [31.133.155.236] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN6PR14MB1585; 7:sT51DC8O8TVFI5o4PbygMUnGE5iZWEGbkfM+o38hTEe2Dv3+6KxREHEFODVl0Jex2CMAJVRok4AOLf2v45+d9GBgFshl8XSSVAV2bKsUj8zttjHuo4OALbRoWmjZQUdClxRUGlnGUx0Rx2DdgPdnL9dabpEEJqp8f6bPo13sagzmos/4jRbTUuwXUrfGE1snvWV6wxGpY4RndMsi08ClSVKOOKPYBmeAb6nFmLRQ8GWUowba8ntAtnTVFZVcg78g x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0f4e3974-6ec4-4ac2-a6c0-08d5e9a52ec9 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We continue to discuss and work with Google on what sorts of improvements to CT should be standardized in the next "experiment", and our implementation will continue to evolve in those directions. -Tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Trans [mailto:trans-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Salz, Rich > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 9:17 PM > To: Paul Wouters ; Trans > Subject: Re: [Trans] Next steps for 6962-bis > > There has been a discussion about the document status, which was set to > Proposed Standard. RFC 6962 itself is Experimental. After some discussion > between authors, AD and chairs, we agreed that since the changes between > 6962 and 6962bis are not trivial, and that we have no implementations > yet that validate that there are no implementation issues, that we should > change the document status to Experimental. Please speak up if you > disagree with this decision. > > This needs to have consensus from the WG. It should not be a private decision > among the AD and chairs. The author is not the owner of the document, it is > not his to change. Are you doing a formal consensus call? So far only Google > has said they will strongly support 6292-bis experiments. I would like to hear > from others, especially those who are participating in the current '6292 > experiment' community -- log operators, for example. > > In my limited experience, "speak up if you disagree" is used after there's been > discussion and it seems that a WG consensus is emerging. Discussing a change > > I want this discussed in Montreal and then have consensus confirmed on the > list. > > > _______________________________________________ > Trans mailing list > Trans@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans ------=_NextPart_000_0CD7_01D41B6C.78FC8520 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCD0sw ggO3MIICn6ADAgECAhAM5+DlF9hG/o/lYPwb8DA5MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTAeFw0wNjExMTAwMDAwMDBaFw0zMTEx MTAwMDAwMDBaMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsT EHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAiBgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBDQTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAK0OFc7kQ4BcsYfzt2D5cRKlrtwmlIiq9M71 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-0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59CAB130E7D for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41SjXc732vzKBH for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:31:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1531603873; bh=5h1R/9Fmot6nbfCDYJfmyK0aIdyf5UcOPDulG2UIZh8=; h=Date:From:To:Subject; b=g3wbsttMI2rSYP8gtY7B0/UYU/11ugWG4m9315pWXUrC4CWMuOB2z2FvdmULAJtzD MhoWtuPy/3mJoQfPHbxp7kNFYNtpn7SAz5W6/9HbXxP1w+XuVhjbIWzHD4rmmXh/pm hudWHqi/BjihsiQtuzd/b/EmIAlPvqDw5YqSAjKk= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ZleVbKF62Ep for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:31:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:31:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A82339E1; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:31:08 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca A82339E1 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB534009E60 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:31:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Trans Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (LRH 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [Trans] Agenda uploaded for IETF#102 X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:31:18 -0000 See https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-trans-00 Feel free to discuss any of the items mentioned on the agenda on the list before the meeting, especially for the 6962is items, so we can talk that into account during the meeting. Paul & Melinda From nobody Thu Jul 19 06:05:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DE51277CC for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 06:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nohats.ca Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5UfdvGRJ395 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 06:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.nohats.ca (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:2a03:6000:1004:1::68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01B7E1277C8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 06:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41WZ4l43c4z1HC for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:05:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nohats.ca; s=default; t=1532005527; bh=fTF1S5/ygJQ+FsOgF2VNIwwtu/YpF0Gi+S559VBleeI=; h=From:Date:Subject:To; b=Z2+gcG3OdAjgB234nzv3yzSKsO3fYKM9sxnNA0Bo+6UteRZXKA/KTROS92CnR7QzZ f9HE0OLgCLzPou5N5rpZzM370wr/rPsku0muxOp0j1DN/3sWhMVtipSIldS0hPyXFD UV39T7ERn3lh1P26yaHC1tD187RoStyrCZbprY2Y= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mx.nohats.ca Received: from mx.nohats.ca ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mx.nohats.ca [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtFDYcIDbfiF for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:05:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bofh.nohats.ca (bofh.nohats.ca [76.10.157.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:05:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [31.133.153.210] (dhcp-99d2.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.153.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by bofh.nohats.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A125D288A6 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:05:25 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 bofh.nohats.ca A125D288A6 From: Paul Wouters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:05:25 -0400 Message-Id: <1E921DA1-D630-4DEE-B382-25AEB28BB257@nohats.ca> To: trans@ietf.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77) Archived-At: Subject: [Trans] Meeting today is 11am - 12am in van Horne X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 13:05:35 -0000 Note that the schedule has us shared with another working group. We actually= start at 11am in the van Horne room Paul Sent from my phone=20= From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:48:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F7A130EFA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQOgiNLbkkxE for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 393F6131095 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id q9-v6so10695651ioj.8 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nomountain-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4SMyfXPAlGOLRCSayw0eRFhcguFlsSafOe7qifZwb6I=; b=YfJZRkBzRBPzO4IDBxuW8mGB+uw6ojuo1lsiEYYFAbUzOedOy9fH9l2foSmustmNJR q5uyVLGvD4L4Ni6UiO8a+yJJKfM/9debPep1rLVnoZxtZd9Fu64sYI6oQgnNpjC9VlZx Z4/yePlAV2F9/WrQIghbe5TA0qOzndguh8Lp5qkXTa/EUn66BvzxtGoAeDNYCHxRqYt2 ko1xSPZ7p0Sz9cWxXCLSU4ETJxsDhDmFTNvCuahIjIxM2HqTHhkiXZ2A4FCKcAjRlG5d kknjQOfmXimMjbO8E2ZDPRjQoplNtNidcI4rDsKVHotxwnMQah+Jhqdj5+3SE82xp15c kztw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4SMyfXPAlGOLRCSayw0eRFhcguFlsSafOe7qifZwb6I=; b=asGnrcOv2WrB6x5Dp9AjwaShw7Zp4NwLjY/Ez+ZjT7catBdgGGXXtpy3jWwL7MsTUT l701wkfvKI4XAE6njkd+6MZt2qSNJ1r7a61KIGPBFY3nby5yb6XoaxDjRu96rG26SPKy yb+gNaTzmbs9sWeQSavpU0JKMj5BS8/oNIp8RXduq3m0aVUMk3IgvWOvJuAYMXkTB+mz nNWJLFFm3euYK0JNn/tN8TOs8zjm/MsKXfM4LbHpy8gWllBcAIWfJhYZFDV6HmeqoZAW 3X3hUT3OKqSbhgT675UQFqUZOHLldSN66pwnQlp2PGF161iToK4admp0bdAlJI3Bpzl6 7bgA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHUoFywuQpuKBLOr1GSRxAKo5YzxuhUCgAPq5OECejPX8imZzdG ZBWBJ8mWgd/zkNx0Md0K5B6ni7ZEVbZU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfbSouK1/LvMCzlAVDw7UQi3CPINmlrIb3KWeP9exwkDiQVQiiRoc39spIsWLmpsw3rMo2a+Q== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:f10f:: with SMTP id e15-v6mr2334971iog.271.1532112497403; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-8c77.meeting.ietf.org ([2001:67c:370:128:795d:e07a:8864:e793]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f18-v6sm1648277itc.44.2018.07.20.11.48.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT) To: "trans@ietf.org" From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:48:16 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Trans] Draft minutes X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:48:21 -0000 Hi, all: Thanks for an excellent meeting yesterday. There are a few questions coming out of it that we'll be bringing to the mailing list next week, once most people are home. The draft minutes have been posted at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-trans-00. Please send comments, corrections, etc. to the mailing list. Melinda -- Software longa, hardware brevis PGP key fingerprint 4F68 2D93 2A17 96F8 20F2 34C0 DFB8 9172 9A76 DB8F From nobody Wed Jul 25 13:52:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CEC3130EFF for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:52:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQul2ordvLUJ for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu [18.9.25.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 551EA130FCD for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1209190c-633ff7000000583c-e3-5b58e310ea54 Received: from mailhub-auth-4.mit.edu ( [18.7.62.39]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 77.F6.22588.113E85B5; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH-1.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-4.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id w6PKqQGx021777; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:52:27 -0400 Received: from kduck.kaduk.org (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w6PKqMUg024067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:52:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:52:22 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Melinda Shore Cc: "trans@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixG6nriv4OCLa4EYDl8X7RUsYLdY+vsji wOSxZMlPJo93c6ayBzBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGV07VzEXjCFv2LZjHa2Bsaf3F2MHBwSAiYS e1/kdDFycggJLGaS2PihqIuRC8jeyCjxZ2oLO4RzlUniSd9TRpAqFgFViU+314DZbAIqEg3d l5lBbBEBA4lPT5rZQWxmoJoN/V0sILawgJJE898WNhCbF2jZtB+NTBDbHCWaX15jgYgLSpyc +YQFoldL4sa/l0wgxzELSEss/8cBEuYUcJJYMOM2WImogLLE3r5D7BMYBWYh6Z6FpHsWQvcC RuZVjLIpuVW6uYmZOcWpybrFyYl5ealFuoZ6uZkleqkppZsYQSHKKcmzg/HMG69DjAIcjEo8 vBdmRkQLsSaWFVfmHmKU5GBSEuUN8gQK8SXlp1RmJBZnxBeV5qQWH2KU4GBWEuF1ORweLcSb klhZlVqUD5OS5mBREue9WwOUEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CycpwcChJ8Ao9AhoqWJSanlqRlplTgpBm 4uAEGc4DNJwBpIa3uCAxtzgzHSJ/ilGX48/7qZOYhVjy8vNSpcR55z4EKhIAKcoozYObA0ot Etn7a14xigO9Jcx7FaSKB5iW4Ca9AlrCBLRENDkUZElJIkJKqoFRee57lrQ03RfP/3dzKDFe zcy6tvy8qpLYrhvSH5qqK2y279oil/6gY4Vn21859eUuVlzGyx7XbwoJLb/DmCQ1+fDjeban xFPFDwnfeeVy+afU0+ZXYbn3DCLmmc99zjqN7/7Z4wF3tZW6b/xzejEnxaKS9XnENd4XxwpS 5Na7FZodWbzfqEpKiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAZAiPuggDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] Draft minutes X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:52:37 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 02:48:16PM -0400, Melinda Shore wrote: > Hi, all: > > Thanks for an excellent meeting yesterday. There are a few > questions coming out of it that we'll be bringing to the mailing > list next week, once most people are home. > > The draft minutes have been posted at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-trans-00. > Please send comments, corrections, etc. to the mailing list. % 4) Fotis Loukos requested that we clarify what we mean by % "current NTP time." There is no proposed text. Given % how late this is in the process, if someone doesn't give % us text there's nothing to talk about, so if someone % feels strongly about this they should contribute text. % Nobody expressed concern. Fotis should produce text, or % we'll drop it. ("NTP Time" appears twice in the document.) It seems like the concern here is that NTP is a protocol for conveying time information from one location/system to another, but there is not necessarily a single universal/global consensus "NTP Time". That is, I can run a clock over here with free-running quartz and use NTP to synchronize a different machine with it, but it will be quite disjoint from "reality". So it seems like we need to indicate what pool(s) of servers are authoritative for the time that we want to be using, or just say it's UTC or GPS or whatever. % Trans threat analysis % --------------------- % % There hasn't been much progress and we don't want to keep % the working group open for just this document. There % doesn't seem to be much interest among working group % participants. Rich Salz thinks we should flip a coin to % settle the difference - he thinks the document has value. % Paul and Melinda will discuss it after the meeting and take % it back out to the mailing list. Is there an outcome of the discussion to report yet? Thanks, Ben From nobody Wed Jul 25 17:49:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6778130DC1 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YYdpIJ-bf5rG for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x231.google.com (mail-pl0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D947F130F07 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x231.google.com with SMTP id w3-v6so1124plq.2 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F/jRrR50CM23hEAuTpjunH2EcayXgQmtCVSvrfzWk9U=; b=ZH6Z5VdOQV1NooClNodYwLTb+WKOzWZqtIpoSwdN3b7xGpeRkbs/Hv51uhp5WKS670 knwoF/3RSkvPQZOA6t60I8hO3aDr5xW9TLva8c+UY35EFl9EaRwzmuXLiouY34ZTEKb/ kBEZHZLGUvYTxaXG1MfD2ewUsLx98t9AWP9SsJRRu7WF5JJ4EuB1XyxJdXlP1jXhHSgs xPIueHj52v1MIk189YY1TCgIVD65BFmNiUrM37dKSGV4xonApqSF6oDXP5p9rtciqyzx z/3bemJ8Clv3fFrxOdWrjI2gl14rV+QFyFKK4/cW5C0kNXpPc8T9WGdm9yZfoCejxzKr vCtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=F/jRrR50CM23hEAuTpjunH2EcayXgQmtCVSvrfzWk9U=; b=DcMJc9mAFnfzvIqSEcE7dOCkt7vDgtWzLMfoA99SH/iJcBoYTncrJCXdTMTpBazZd+ 7yJWybGfPkYhTZEImwAPYZ7t7VHMu959Zk3XeC5e/1GU4zHei4fKTK1Gv275oQqIXGgg 7tD6ok4HkiRDGtM7mn1JkCoFAEsn75ynXQadQX+vZRzlzttKKgBppxFXydohNyBVpkjl MSkLDufVlZjy3MuIiO2SEYC4ekXG9RAvUBh5w6Qj4QReD2Ls9gHNXbXt1Kke07p6J+xC 39mp63ji77+kMQ/0CAO+JfIHbbjVcEXRuikBn2zyEKmfFSg8cKbYjcTL6s8X9KQ8u5Hk N+Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHHSsVhdgyZsbNQH1WEaPRdRFyQ2zhsOw24nuwsdUHwbbTyF95b U8yAbXxM5a0+w5Lj74dXh5GmWRjA+wA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdgtZ4GG3W47YTmDx7SRHNDD8rymotqz6p/Ib0ldIcu6cvFm6NDVfz/WQ8BUQbwuvwl/dkjEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e3:: with SMTP id a90-v6mr23402348pla.227.1532566142130; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Melindas-MacBook-Pro.local (ip-64-134-140-72.public.wayport.net. [64.134.140.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5-v6sm11174572pff.139.2018.07.25.17.49.01 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:49:01 -0700 (PDT) To: trans@ietf.org References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 20:49:00 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] Draft minutes X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:49:05 -0000 On 7/25/18 4:52 PM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > % There hasn't been much progress and we don't want to keep > % the working group open for just this document. There > % doesn't seem to be much interest among working group > % participants. Rich Salz thinks we should flip a coin to > % settle the difference - he thinks the document has value. > % Paul and Melinda will discuss it after the meeting and take > % it back out to the mailing list. > > Is there an outcome of the discussion to report yet? No - I'm just heading home right now after a short post-meeting visit with family. In the interest of transparency, I do feel pretty strongly that documents need to reflect working group consensus, and that moving them forward without that consensus tends not to discourage the kind of behavior that got us here in the first place. But Paul and I will discuss next steps and let you all know where we are. Melinda From nobody Wed Jul 25 18:01:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA36B130F1F for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1Pf8a0XA9l5 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBD84130E67 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9A2BE55; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:01:01 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rd1cf-QtgIsH; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:01:00 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43A08BE53; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 02:01:00 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1532566860; bh=9It5XyEl+2tUkKgcd4lzG8GdcdWzn02Ixy5rMfGN3Ag=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ojD56XIE+evmyd1iXlS+STQkWuRYnWllJekKu5+2huc5sY7veEvqP70JaCTps+7+2 aQA9rYIgllX2f3iOxuYttdldZqh9b7Vf8DdLaSzdC+408FBs2rZb5BIxX7A0jiuPG9 PGnGXtBzg2UKKwge39M4VtwxZuSeusLJKPm/d9Pw= To: Melinda Shore , trans@ietf.org References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iGq1hb3x0sD3WbirriuuVsAnD7PrkYlIT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] Draft minutes X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:01:08 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --iGq1hb3x0sD3WbirriuuVsAnD7PrkYlIT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="6wMJvvsgR5RYpigJj3nMU7PxaAKYe8jAS"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Melinda Shore , trans@ietf.org Message-ID: <83c25e34-a660-43ba-ee53-e1aa1aa0947a@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Trans] Draft minutes References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> In-Reply-To: --6wMJvvsgR5RYpigJj3nMU7PxaAKYe8jAS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------582F2EB73F7486D951631AEB" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------582F2EB73F7486D951631AEB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 26/07/18 01:49, Melinda Shore wrote: > In the interest of transparency, I do feel pretty strongly > that documents need to reflect working group consensus, and > that moving them forward without that consensus tends not > to discourage the kind of behavior that got us here in the > first place.=20 Well said. That, plus the improbability that the sky will fall if the draft is question is not published, convinces me that just letting it linger as an I-D is fine. The text and analysis is not lost, the RFC number is not needed, so don't we have to let it linger? 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aV3LPvpt6xodL/yS08xv6n0z33unPwYicSZMCS/5T4EMH53Vm4HszIqespCJIuIw6Rqwk8onXhH8Cwbc2IbEhW7tzP0SaT1Q+jva0r9oUg3v1zKdEOE3MuiJyYh9JAWIJt6CPUp/S+7coT695eU/roM2t1MYX43BfQ7gwjIh7ZieuqyMtnmqhaakOnwbzcQIxSjfobr33C3AAca4aQYRVAulMPG9ELbRePu9kT3WSwhZkQdAfsz+JoDqo8HFq9AVCvwMFmJtv8B8pbBw5AhGqqr521KAwZz4zxjwMDAAbozLv/eERMtEZQsazIWNWgec4k0oYbRBNkyJqmKerg+oP3TfJw4wisOJ1R30reMn46U= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9d612332-197b-4851-e789-08d5f2e7a0ed X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Jul 2018 11:04:59.3595 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4179 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:05:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 25 Jul 2018, at 21:52, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 02:48:16PM -0400, Melinda Shore wrote: >> Hi, all: >>=20 >> Thanks for an excellent meeting yesterday. There are a few >> questions coming out of it that we'll be bringing to the mailing >> list next week, once most people are home. >>=20 >> The draft minutes have been posted at >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-trans-00. >> Please send comments, corrections, etc. to the mailing list. >=20 > % 4) Fotis Loukos requested that we clarify what we mean by > % "current NTP time." There is no proposed text. Given > % how late this is in the process, if someone doesn't give > % us text there's nothing to talk about, so if someone > % feels strongly about this they should contribute text. > % Nobody expressed concern. Fotis should produce text, or > % we'll drop it. >=20 > ("NTP Time" appears twice in the document.) >=20 > It seems like the concern here is that NTP is a protocol for conveying = time > information from one location/system to another, but there is not > necessarily a single universal/global consensus "NTP Time". That is, = I can > run a clock over here with free-running quartz and use NTP to = synchronize a > different machine with it, but it will be quite disjoint from = "reality". > So it seems like we need to indicate what pool(s) of servers are > authoritative for the time that we want to be using, or just say it's = UTC > or GPS or whatever. Isn=E2=80=99t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice = about a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? Yrs., Robin --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iHUEAREKAB0WIQS03Q0BX5DT/2+Eft/rjpnzLLbATAUCW1mq2gAKCRDrjpnzLLbA THqyAPwJrZVMXjDsPJ6Xmop/o5R5dNPypjptmpgrh7QWzcPdHwD/ew65/7EU7i82 f46E0BIACEMtwvkJcO354Gm+na76UjA= =S/+4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7-- From nobody Thu Jul 26 04:31:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8B5130F96 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 04:31:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BL0PR06MB4466; H:BL0PR06MB4772.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: isoc.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 1DUDnFDKde+Vb4OjTufueaQzkCummPlr9fVKxjnjv1aEjPvUflHOs/z/LUNQ0gRvnNAS/C1EX5oAfg/uBmzed//JtgbuhMZhVt/0G0bvUZyw2dg0YQZPphOuHlGY6pONfse3omE9cCM9agAj2xrRtqmIGb0l6+SOkBksa70maj6oyj/5+bMjxzapRvhHfWKp2c3ZVwO2Jmvl1mysgO0aXip6FOBC+3WDQESOP7oeJr2ksEFFc8fec/UMUa58stHOJ0tVBd+VfhPJtjNqR6cDTZNh6C4r6CNYEB4yDd+W83lc+B8IJ73PU+lQwN7YSbywjrtk5gmS4MGXZGP55WrFd4iuyE/aBlW+DFamyGC0QfQ= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2204e0ae-4093-4853-4087-08d5f2eb4c06 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Jul 2018 11:31:13.9140 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 89f84dfb-7285-4810-bc4d-8b9b5794554f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR06MB4466 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:31:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 25 Jul 2018, at 21:52, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 02:48:16PM -0400, Melinda Shore wrote: >> Hi, all: >>=20 >> Thanks for an excellent meeting yesterday. There are a few >> questions coming out of it that we'll be bringing to the mailing >> list next week, once most people are home. >>=20 >> The draft minutes have been posted at >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-trans-00. >> Please send comments, corrections, etc. to the mailing list. >=20 > % 4) Fotis Loukos requested that we clarify what we mean by > % "current NTP time." There is no proposed text. Given > % how late this is in the process, if someone doesn't give > % us text there's nothing to talk about, so if someone > % feels strongly about this they should contribute text. > % Nobody expressed concern. Fotis should produce text, or > % we'll drop it. >=20 > ("NTP Time" appears twice in the document.) >=20 > It seems like the concern here is that NTP is a protocol for conveying = time > information from one location/system to another, but there is not > necessarily a single universal/global consensus "NTP Time". That is, = I can > run a clock over here with free-running quartz and use NTP to = synchronize a > different machine with it, but it will be quite disjoint from = "reality". > So it seems like we need to indicate what pool(s) of servers are > authoritative for the time that we want to be using, or just say it's = UTC > or GPS or whatever. Isn=E2=80=99t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice = about a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? Yrs., Robin --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iHUEAREKAB0WIQS03Q0BX5DT/2+Eft/rjpnzLLbATAUCW1mq2gAKCRDrjpnzLLbA THqyAPwJrZVMXjDsPJ6Xmop/o5R5dNPypjptmpgrh7QWzcPdHwD/ew65/7EU7i82 f46E0BIACEMtwvkJcO354Gm+na76UjA= =S/+4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9D34899E-E201-458D-854F-4CDF713045C7-- From nobody Thu Jul 26 06:50:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BFE13101F for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9DQ-x96tTcch for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu [18.9.25.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8D15130E25 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:50:18 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1209190d-eadff700000048be-7a-5b59d19916dc Received: from mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.35]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-2.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id A3.A6.18622.991D95B5; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH-1.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-1.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id w6QDoFAv025350; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:50:16 -0400 Received: from kduck.kaduk.org (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w6QDoB7F015046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:50:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:50:12 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Robin Wilton Cc: Melinda Shore , "trans@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Wtrm9ATX0sn6fFKv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrOKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixCmqrDvzYmS0wfw7BhbvFy1htFj7+CKL xeNb79gcmD2WLPnJ5PFqWiOrx7s5U9kDmKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mj6f28ResECsYv+FT8wN jDuFuhg5OSQETCSm3ulgB7GFBBYzSfTtAopzAdkbGSU+Xz/ADuFcZZL4dW0vkMPBwSKgKnG4 Sx6kgU1ARaKh+zJzFyM7h4iAksSpEpAos0CMRNO/3YwgtrCAusSPW19ZQGxeoFUbTz5lhJg4 j1Hi4paXjBAJQYmTM5+wgExnFiiTuD7bBcKUllj+jwOkglPARqK1+w7YGFEBZYm9fYfYJzAK zELSPAuheRZC8yywe9Ql/sy7xIwhrC2xbOFrZgjbVmLduvcsCxjZVzHKpuRW6eYmZuYUpybr Ficn5uWlFuka6eVmluilppRuYgTHgyTvDsZ/d70OMQpwMCrx8ArIRkYLsSaWFVfmHmKU5GBS EuVNWw8U4kvKT6nMSCzOiC8qzUktPsSoArTr0YbVFxilWPLy81KVRHj1twDV8aYkVlalFuXD lElzsCiJ896rCY8WEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2CycpwcChJ8KZfAGoULEpNT61Iy8wpQUgzcXAeYpTg 4AEa3gxSw1tckJhbnJkOkT/FqMvx5/3UScxCYBdIifPuOg9UJABSlFGaBzcHlN4ksvfXvGIU B3pRmHcvyCgeYGqEm/QKaAkT0JLjcWBLShIRUlINjFc4UhRUZRf57GueeJo1Z//MC1ftQ1Wu artYcObd2Vkfe8TN6LWBy1bzPtOEqUvqzmW8mrzr9oxDnXsiav9sUO0XYJ5/qLjWOiW2Pygm MOGnYa2mJ6PvhP1XmKL7fTf+eyhQ/9t9hqEao6aL1RG5f9u5e9aGv3MrC4kNrdq/8+h+u/yc Ex8/KbEUZyQaajEXFScCABfUbWdKAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:50:23 -0000 --Wtrm9ATX0sn6fFKv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:31:13AM +0000, Robin Wilton wrote: >=20 > > On 25 Jul 2018, at 21:52, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > >=20 > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 02:48:16PM -0400, Melinda Shore wrote: > >> Hi, all: > >>=20 > >> Thanks for an excellent meeting yesterday. There are a few > >> questions coming out of it that we'll be bringing to the mailing > >> list next week, once most people are home. > >>=20 > >> The draft minutes have been posted at > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-trans-0= 0. > >> Please send comments, corrections, etc. to the mailing list. > >=20 > > % 4) Fotis Loukos requested that we clarify what we mean by > > % "current NTP time." There is no proposed text. Given > > % how late this is in the process, if someone doesn't give > > % us text there's nothing to talk about, so if someone > > % feels strongly about this they should contribute text. > > % Nobody expressed concern. Fotis should produce text, or > > % we'll drop it. > >=20 > > ("NTP Time" appears twice in the document.) > >=20 > > It seems like the concern here is that NTP is a protocol for conveying = time > > information from one location/system to another, but there is not > > necessarily a single universal/global consensus "NTP Time". That is, I= can > > run a clock over here with free-running quartz and use NTP to synchroni= ze a > > different machine with it, but it will be quite disjoint from "reality". > > So it seems like we need to indicate what pool(s) of servers are > > authoritative for the time that we want to be using, or just say it's U= TC > > or GPS or whatever. >=20 > Isn=E2=80=99t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice abo= ut a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? Seems likely. Are the chairs interested in making such a request? -Ben --Wtrm9ATX0sn6fFKv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQG3BAABCgAdFiEE2WGV4E2ARf9BYP0XKNmm82TrdRIFAltZ0Y4ACgkQKNmm82Tr dRLUFQweID+mLyIRlDT2tjIqHbgR372dQDmv3cO0LLg4Diu17hjDkz43MUhOgyT3 hZ9n76ZYulWl2MfMwQkO4tvtQOfssqLCk/d59ZJVMT19TfkSrWFMW+fKE2mIta3o DVhSurtkb5/VaIZDPwoUgsELMT/9OrPKd6Lgqu6BZQMMXvTELcTBySB69tEVM5sa XcZLLI56OsgJnAqIbiZ3Yz42A59PYdcp6qmCO5bQnBFK/iUTTHd7VqXTkCMnL5ZY 88uAohiacjcriYSe2dEA4XfyO+RS2M1bOcxU2qqw3boIf/oBvU58j0uF9zmpryjq dGUWDsxCEbITHbYZNBrEpM6tJtPN2zKk/rlXOGM3QRYZCObD9Z2FwojnbyF2Semw 1IO7KG07xp+OM63ZyiTt+gU7vqf7mCKTZG0JOcoDrUHEup0jpTcVA7gKliMPaLwj LdeBtUn3GtrDc5u26T9kzGbJg3QSM+d1ylaF5p22613OSNt0T2G5Dnxf0vymeI3s MRu3yTpHYPxUzA== =44i4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Wtrm9ATX0sn6fFKv-- From nobody Thu Jul 26 23:19:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02400130E3C for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fce5ktjB20jK for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 595B6130E1C for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id x5-v6so2609977pgp.7 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3sqdp8idBzVXsLn43ascKWerOw82ySvnkxxZE/1Ab0c=; b=cfofrdv21hvHJ7P+65uK9o1ChmLdBrhV3VA7B6w23CSzLOA3ZS6zHDd8XcvKPWuEKW H5YpLkgAWhekrxcnfyAOSG0OGwUPbOeyy/yVQA5UvhCShEU3+C3gjCViGPDm/yfN4AKh ScyyLuoKJ2mhj50fpR1GDd2rWxjSUOPi09IdfGAsZ2J8QSyAT+bAMlF3S0FEC/vnXcWh jod9R0I5kzJckTMr3o22n+uBvn4j9qML2xyVAU5fphy741NnFUwxnNVR/ysAH7IjoPsM 0YMsMILPWEcrj11/QSOAS0o9kM+BdXLrHXv2+ezQ2//OiaXx6GUJ3tKf6x4x0KdRozxh yubw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3sqdp8idBzVXsLn43ascKWerOw82ySvnkxxZE/1Ab0c=; b=s1zdDRXBp1xDGmYDV/Fd87W/ryBLNsx9zwzUfi7PQWuyzNsIwsPPGrIgfxM4r6GZie 7DxUmgbHZnH4G8LUKp6R09x8LsJO5Mw4HgNzRwCkWeefdF5kg7IXKTK36ZfMTcb6hwml 4OJkFsq7ueUJ7vaami4u7UxQOwzzxFg7mVre4dRwNXktUPONcZnR8xB6rGlHwrt9ot5F mw41jS8XfKnmiebuAbLojs8HaxFmMvsXDy9gglITqdyBGvkxEvYMAcRuNIt6sITrpOsC uN764V5wnyuW86AhKvexN4zsAeZVvq6YyAQc8L+QXCyjbkw2yitmAhnY/2i6T6t11YFj tCGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGyoKJaYyYRA4jIaWXvduShz9axBp27L/hRViEwz0LVrfGNztbm IACUuswDoDE20DuCNmV2aLapS68y X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc9FLTKgJ3YkSFPX2wKu+t0wLo/25VQvcy3PLyblYxqxZGjbJ3PvqD/bgfpwXmU3kyhMbjOSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:941a:: with SMTP id m26-v6mr4714057pge.82.1532672363672; Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-116-106-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.116.106]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v17-v6sm4426922pfn.177.2018.07.26.23.19.22 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:19:22 -0700 (PDT) To: trans@ietf.org References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <7cd881d9-de7b-10a2-fed6-d933be3bb867@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:19:20 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 06:19:27 -0000 On 7/26/18 5:50 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:31:13AM +0000, Robin Wilton wrote: >> Isn’t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice about >> a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? > Seems likely. Are the chairs interested in making such a request? Sure, although I'd like to hear from the authors and/or from implementers, first. My understanding is that that piece of data is used to provide a sanity check (i.e. an STH cannot have a timestamp earlier than that of any SCT in the tree) and it seems to me that the level of rigor being expected of the timestamp should probably align with its actual application. So, let's make sure we agree on what we're asking for before making a request. Melinda From nobody Fri Jul 27 20:25:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9006A130DFA for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sleevi.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0n74073sFJLg for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a1.g.dreamhost.com (smtp4.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7D9812785F for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a1.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a1.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28057801B8 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=sleevi.com; h=mime-version :references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; s=sleevi.com; bh=S2/5Xo0c/7q1IItP6RIpXxSbGtk=; b= ANTV0invIKVFxWbZUqXpWZTshKab3X4PMB8/gYd3w1tLSHrPm841FPnIG80BtSvO 7u9RVCWIy+ybwQkXYY6402TIyWE0PdxD1K/bHHYq/5thZqTlbzeNC7cexRP4eYpF NEN2IcjC5Jxq/Y+lkqJ/0kDUSfptwBY+ToMAyvq0Jpk= Received: from mail-it0-f48.google.com (mail-it0-f48.google.com [209.85.214.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: ryan@sleevi.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a1.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 177DA7FED4 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f48.google.com with SMTP id h23-v6so10021511ita.5 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGgpKUWOaiN1G1M0T0quEUdqJgJSTqG6af8oGzV84jssSifsjqX oqkoEi3NsZXIPE7JU1mDYL8dtY3e9RKqDRhhaK8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfYIidx4xIiJF3o+yjuytwoFXKJxS5QRR4TsM+ktxQKfZZpSg23qEIgHrF0MX1RhKW5h2+AP0OjN91Dvh3AKok= X-Received: by 2002:a24:62d0:: with SMTP id d199-v6mr7241784itc.91.1532748321422; Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:25:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <7cd881d9-de7b-10a2-fed6-d933be3bb867@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7cd881d9-de7b-10a2-fed6-d933be3bb867@gmail.com> From: Ryan Sleevi Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 12:25:10 +0900 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Melinda Shore Cc: trans@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003a8763057206c7d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 03:25:25 -0000 --0000000000003a8763057206c7d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 3:19 PM Melinda Shore wrote: > On 7/26/18 5:50 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:31:13AM +0000, Robin Wilton wrote: > >> Isn=E2=80=99t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice = about > >> a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? > > Seems likely. Are the chairs interested in making such a request? > > Sure, although I'd like to hear from the authors and/or > from implementers, first. My understanding is that that > piece of data is used to provide a sanity check (i.e. an > STH cannot have a timestamp earlier than that of any SCT > in the tree) and it seems to me that the level of rigor > being expected of the timestamp should probably align > with its actual application. So, let's make sure we agree > on what we're asking for before making a request. > > Melinda > > _______________________________________________ > Trans mailing list > Trans@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans Just to make sure: We=E2=80=99re talking about the feedback on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/trans/current/msg03155.html , correct= ? I=E2=80=99m having trouble squaring that feedback with what=E2=80=99s being= discussed here, since it wasn=E2=80=99t a question about the rigor of a globally consistent= time, but rather a question about the encoding and wire format being left ambiguously unclear. That is, this is about format and not semantics, and proposed text to try to disambiguate a little more was included. --0000000000003a8763057206c7d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On= Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 3:19 PM Melinda Shore <melinda.shore@gmail.com> wrote:
On 7/26/18 5:50 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wr= ote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:31:13AM +0000, Robin Wilton wrote:
>> Isn=E2=80=99t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for adv= ice about
>> a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used?
> Seems likely.=C2=A0 Are the chairs interested in making such a request= ?

Sure, although I'd like to hear from the authors and/or
from implementers, first.=C2=A0 My understanding is that that
piece of data is used to provide a sanity check (i.e. an
STH cannot have a timestamp earlier than that of any SCT
in the tree) and it seems to me that the level of rigor
being expected of the timestamp should probably align
with its actual application.=C2=A0 So, let's make sure we agree
on what we're asking for before making a request.

Melinda

_______________________________________________
Trans mailing list
Trans@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans


<= div dir=3D"auto">Just to make sure: We=E2=80=99re talking about the feedbac= k on https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/trans/curre= nt/msg03155.html , correct?

I=E2=80=99m having trouble squaring that feedback with what=E2=80= =99s being discussed here, since it wasn=E2=80=99t a question about the rig= or of a globally consistent time, but rather a question about the encoding = and wire format being left ambiguously unclear. That is, this is about form= at and not semantics, and proposed text to try to disambiguate a little mor= e was included.
--0000000000003a8763057206c7d0-- From nobody Sat Jul 28 08:03:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88B3130F04 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wx7NJLlf6I31 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu [18.7.68.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85938130DC8 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 12074424-e5fff70000000838-ac-5b5c85a0d195 Received: from mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu ( [18.7.62.36]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-7.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 0A.EF.02104.1A58C5B5; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 11:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH-1.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.11]) by mailhub-auth-2.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id w6SF2tcG030356; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 11:02:56 -0400 Received: from kduck.kaduk.org (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id w6SF2qfM023191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Jul 2018 11:02:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 10:02:52 -0500 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Ryan Sleevi Cc: Melinda Shore , trans@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180728150251.GC25520@kduck.kaduk.org> References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <7cd881d9-de7b-10a2-fed6-d933be3bb867@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.1 (2017-09-22) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprFKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixG6noruwNSbaYEaTtkVb2ywWi0n35zJa rH18kcWB2WPnrLvsHkuW/GTyaN69myWAOYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4+6OXraCBoGKteePszcw PuHpYuTkkBAwkXj/ajFzFyMXh5DAYiaJ+R9+sEM4Gxkl9t1pYYRwrjJJrLj8gQWkhUVAVeLC g3vsIDabgIpEQ/dlZhBbREBN4uH0M6wgNrOAtcTWpc1gNcIC6hI/bn0F6+UFWrfn/xyooYeZ JN52PWCGSAhKnJz5hAWiWV3iz7xLQHEOIFtaYvk/DoiwvETz1tlg5ZwCgRL7371hArFFBZQl 9vYdYp/AKDgLyaRZSCbNQpg0C8mkBYwsqxhlU3KrdHMTM3OKU5N1i5MT8/JSi3TN9XIzS/RS U0o3MYKD3UVlB2N3j/chRgEORiUe3gs20dFCrIllxZW5hxglOZiURHlZcmOihfiS8lMqMxKL M+KLSnNSiw8xSnAwK4nwav0HKudNSaysSi3Kh0lJc7AoifPerQmPFhJITyxJzU5NLUgtgsnK cHAoSfDebQEaKliUmp5akZaZU4KQZuLgBBnOAzS8B6SGt7ggMbc4Mx0if4pRl+PP+6mTmIVY 8vLzUqXEebVBigRAijJK8+DmgJKURPb+mleM4kBvCfMyA1OWEA8wwcFNegW0hAloyfG4SJAl JYkIKakGRiNxjofrG59HG2poCf/OeFbbbat2wsrh1X3lvxY6pvP0Y1ebO7e+XFuvpvxhtfib 8q2ivy9Em6f3nvcP/mt1haVd4fR+N5u+x1oXZ29t+Jrwfu30rXezNr9wZq3TePL175zYiLYv jfXHz806dWwTV+US5U0FH7M1Ptk9slmXGFmTG/DpE++UGUosxRmJhlrMRcWJAKzIRe8tAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:03:03 -0000 Hi Ryan, On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 12:25:10PM +0900, Ryan Sleevi wrote: > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 3:19 PM Melinda Shore > wrote: > > > On 7/26/18 5:50 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:31:13AM +0000, Robin Wilton wrote: > > >> Isn’t there a case, here, for asking the tictoc WG for advice about > > >> a canonical reference or chunk of text that could be used? > > > Seems likely. Are the chairs interested in making such a request? > > > > Sure, although I'd like to hear from the authors and/or > > from implementers, first. My understanding is that that > > piece of data is used to provide a sanity check (i.e. an > > STH cannot have a timestamp earlier than that of any SCT > > in the tree) and it seems to me that the level of rigor > > being expected of the timestamp should probably align > > with its actual application. So, let's make sure we agree > > on what we're asking for before making a request. > > > > Melinda > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Trans mailing list > > Trans@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/trans > > > > > > Just to make sure: We’re talking about the feedback on > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/trans/current/msg03155.html , correct? > > I’m having trouble squaring that feedback with what’s being discussed here, > since it wasn’t a question about the rigor of a globally consistent time, > but rather a question about the encoding and wire format being left > ambiguously unclear. That is, this is about format and not semantics, and > proposed text to try to disambiguate a little more was included. Thanks for pulling up the primary source; I was just going on the chairs' summary of the issues and apparently only noticed an unrelated potential issue. Clarifying that the 64-bit timestamp format (with callout to Sectino 6 of RFC 5905) is the correct one sounds like a fine thing to do. -Ben From nobody Sat Jul 28 15:37:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3946131152 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ty1oDT8bgv7 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1B25130DD8 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id r5-v6so5194660pgv.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lMDSB2LgpTbOY8ItNELElVYKBXowHewNo7cvZNbSJCo=; b=FTjWReihUrlmb/RWw3XpM0dYBBlevHx0BcXINaoRhX8KVZAru76kvm0nxgPqWMJo+1 rVvrsvlan2EKex2DD3lQBct6DHyCiZf8RsulKoq/4L8WEtY4KiprV4pK9vGCTQVpjXAL QseANDYctKtBYMcB4KN6KpXMs8OYvsSvIkQxhEm2oRy+usEzXiv1dIrXhwKv9UEhr6UF x20yBCtOJOlxCld8dzJB4J2QFtVbfMeUMByT0kpA6FxRCS/+vmMTydbEmGMaPkW9a2do WwQoO+AttrUTKeNbxUWiguyVGtLidXchCU3+K6IBI706S86S6Tq/NK1oSWXHuzYAKbVP ldYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lMDSB2LgpTbOY8ItNELElVYKBXowHewNo7cvZNbSJCo=; b=JuO7+NK82QHydRRAmLTLpuYbuUfnWg619kHTB24zSb1zZdTJKSka9+OwqvgTh5Wk0f OqiPfF/OIJWMjCrgRLdZbcp3IFc1sUPPJwYOvaOpsUgk/HXcNOhgwd+QRBGjd/pZOSaK eUuQqG8o4J8GBB7+4naxF92Sa+XX5XqLfRjblhTpAEwLJMKhv/CTYliWGYaUrMDj15vK 3LOaqNy/CQBzE4PrrtPaTbo1Sft48duwz0zuO24uwovLmAciBUaK33ohNtSsMS26zIh8 AwioNrzKZA89d/DZStodImpATd3vOKlAosZXYalN5n/niW6kzIkjQbo3muYBVjrnbdJv /xBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlG5UdGDX41LKfKLIwnBhh3qVgUKms6xhRez6S17jN+JYYPmzUq7 HlmvmvboFesx4BMTCPExnTud4JFR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeQHePfnGLFxtOrsZwfhugtRfcR0Gq7mglTBmnpIq6c8Wk/U2bbjDsltJiIXCoE+dI3yR+MkA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:ba43:: with SMTP id l3-v6mr10632367pgu.295.1532817439287; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen.local (216-67-116-106-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net. [216.67.116.106]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j83-v6sm19277127pfj.71.2018.07.28.15.37.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Jul 2018 15:37:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Benjamin Kaduk , Ryan Sleevi Cc: trans@ietf.org References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <1E12735C-1C8F-4333-AC92-8D604D5A315E@isoc.org> <20180726135011.GJ92448@kduck.kaduk.org> <7cd881d9-de7b-10a2-fed6-d933be3bb867@gmail.com> <20180728150251.GC25520@kduck.kaduk.org> From: Melinda Shore Message-ID: <4d5ac6f9-2853-17cd-7115-64fe2f7786f9@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 14:37:16 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180728150251.GC25520@kduck.kaduk.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] "current NTP time" X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:37:22 -0000 On 7/28/18 7:02 AM, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Thanks for pulling up the primary source; I was just going on the chairs' > summary of the issues and apparently only noticed an unrelated potential issue. > Clarifying that the 64-bit timestamp format (with callout to Sectino 6 of > RFC 5905) is the correct one sounds like a fine thing to do. D'oh! But in fairness the what was under discussion was in response to the meeting minutes, which do accurately capture the discussion in Montreal. I'll bug the authors. Melinda From nobody Sat Jul 28 17:06:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: trans@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A65130D7A for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXr9XLYMmmqc for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (smtp11.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73118131184 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75B981158; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=fjfOOmQ/UjzhWa gFMfkr/DA2joA=; b=uzQqfXaPqNTtxc+CJTl2fG0s8rr6+D6TwS3l+6vSDkSAja Q07TNPlFUXVMdg1tLyyV4cFb7LZmXfrfHhLurbT6qe+1DfBPE1SK92iNp/RjXilX O+VRWGrCeDt/cZREdLcTjcikImxzsFVY2o0vldQTMEHBsx/701SdSKYCINs5M= Received: from localhost (cpe-70-123-158-140.austin.res.rr.com [70.123.158.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a13.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52A408102D; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:05:56 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Melinda Shore , "trans@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180729000554.GE5700@localhost> References: <96c35701-9a12-9272-0295-f66a1b6c2fa9@nomountain.net> <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180725205222.GA92448@kduck.kaduk.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Trans] Draft minutes X-BeenThere: trans@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Public Notary Transparency working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 00:06:06 -0000 On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 03:52:22PM -0500, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > % 4) Fotis Loukos requested that we clarify what we mean by > % "current NTP time." There is no proposed text. Given > % how late this is in the process, if someone doesn't give > % us text there's nothing to talk about, so if someone > % feels strongly about this they should contribute text. > % Nobody expressed concern. Fotis should produce text, or > % we'll drop it. > > ("NTP Time" appears twice in the document.) > > It seems like the concern here is that NTP is a protocol for conveying > time information from one location/system to another, but there is not > necessarily a single universal/global consensus "NTP Time". That is, > I can run a clock over here with free-running quartz and use NTP to > synchronize a different machine with it, but it will be quite disjoint > from "reality". So it seems like we need to indicate what pool(s) of > servers are authoritative for the time that we want to be using, or > just say it's UTC or GPS or whatever. My guess is the authors mean "current time" and "use NTP to get current time". If they mean anything else then that should be clarified for sure. Even if that's what they mean, it would be easy enough to make that change, even as late as AUTH48.