From nobody Sat Apr 1 07:15:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8E21294A3 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Do8dA1naTMTo for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 581171294A2 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id b187so87707938oif.0 for ; Sat, 01 Apr 2017 07:15:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=GLDaiKcK53mLPi7HBoQstiZJpAxzHOHzmXDtVlQcvyI=; b=Nxo0q+BW+HOzaVr7IIBX7ikJK7CweTzWt0nTrFJUL1ie1EbjRqkATt26ue1CfXNaym Ydp8Z0Z+ie+kBRS3hyeCYs4lXxRazd8jFIdTnXNjHf011q3/HJrqVp8PQ0E1MmJRVi7J 0wHkcDjkr1S1i5J1Q2PkTk6W3DnSoN35FsLmzPLqiWvFah84AJPrPi59wRPxJlNYaunj VQ/gCO+5oFhGoOnFVZWGmL401TXT0bdhAu43tHacaCoSdJ/RAhVGqJjpvcssyv7Qw0JU wUsLrnjx7G/h/3G4P9sILfez41hCC8M1V+sF/u0DanWlebFIva5JLoWC6IFx4r7T0VKt BLcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GLDaiKcK53mLPi7HBoQstiZJpAxzHOHzmXDtVlQcvyI=; b=I1lrb45cpkVA+m+FduAzb5XtY4IIgtFK5u0GZSc5AK5ODaStnmwYY86vQ6ofd9fHsW XHNVaWmM3gh6G9oejJaNaQZ6r8Wb43NgUXm9s0iqbHQXf1bJZu5GAzdRy7TNjMtVlg0d rdJ1QsyuUJ21GgxBfFS3YDWYZOFP6PEvIcc3um3iLywzNbYT6y1K9boj1lnTUYkgUXQD zRWZXYhh8vWBnMz/9caLTtALiGEmsqW+8wsVs04tkgWQ+u1IjvgbdFKtPXXxPdSjom6L sffZMKsvKOyOh0rcLnUN2FgT23mzD3tl3dUkFvQdUdzjf4YOxsrlR+jqlmZ1ZHcOQ+Bv AikQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1DuKY1FZK09thxVYPV/aQcMZk1uAY3aCPz5YMD4hG4dprY3qi10aMGDn45h8D3EK0jZ+DGY5JXiKf7Sw== X-Received: by 10.157.10.197 with SMTP id 63mr5099215otq.211.1491056117597; Sat, 01 Apr 2017 07:15:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: gettysjim@gmail.com Received: by 10.74.142.129 with HTTP; Sat, 1 Apr 2017 07:15:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> <35bca3fc-a7ca-dfe3-6b1f-fb13a02e6a86@isi.edu> From: Jim Gettys Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:15:17 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vlYwgIPBBmEs1oFxjwD8kLU2TOw Message-ID: Subject: Re: [iccrg] Bufferbloat and Congestion Control To: Joe Touch Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org" , "iccrg@irtf.org" , Neal Cardwell Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c033a3e3acc83054c1b8ec1 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 14:15:24 -0000 --94eb2c033a3e3acc83054c1b8ec1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 10:51 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 3/31/2017 4:30 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > >> >> >> On 3/31/2017 7:47 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: >> > One full size packet @ 1mbps =3D=3D 13 milliseconds. >> That sort of blocking is its own problem and the only solution is to use >> smaller packets. >> >> It can be solved at TCP by pushing the MSS down, but for UDP that's >> another good reason for considering UDP options as a TSVWG WG item! >> > > =E2=80=8BYes, but without better packet scheduling such as fq_codel at th= e > bottleneck, it won't help. But I'm decently optimistic that =E2=80=8Btha= t > fq_codel/cake/other things will be deploying widely, since we're seeing > fq_codel appear in commercial products at this date. > > > No amount of scheduling overcomes a limit on the unit of scheduling - the > packet size, which has increasing impact as link bandwidth decreases. > > Better scheduling is important necessary too, but by itself insufficient. > =E2=80=8BAgree entirely. Both are necessary, and either by itself insuffici= ent. - Jim =E2=80=8B > > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > iccrg mailing list > iccrg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/iccrg > > --94eb2c033a3e3acc83054c1b8ec1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Ma= r 31, 2017 at 10:51 PM, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> wrote:
=20 =20 =20



On 3/31/2017 4:30 = PM, Jim Gettys wrote:


On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu> wrote:


On 3/31/2017 7:47 AM, Jim Gettys wrote:
> One full size packet @ 1mbps =3D=3D 13 milliseconds. That sort of blocking is its own problem and the only solution is to use
smaller packets.

It can be solved at TCP by pushing the MSS down, but for UDP that's
another good reason for considering UDP options as a TSVWG WG item!

=E2=80=8BYes, but without better packet scheduling such as fq_codel at the bottleneck, it won't help.=C2=A0 But I'm decently opt= imistic that =E2=80=8Bthat fq_codel/cake/other things will be deployi= ng widely, since we're seeing fq_codel appear in commercial products at this date.

 No amount of scheduling overcomes a limit on the unit of scheduling - the packet size, which has increasing impact as link bandwidth decreases.

Better scheduling is important necessary too, but by itself insufficient.

=E2=80=8BAgree entirely. Both are necessary,= and either by itself insufficient.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -= Jim

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=8B
<= font color=3D"#888888">

Joe

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--94eb2c033a3e3acc83054c1b8ec1-- From nobody Tue Apr 4 08:32:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067211296D8 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8OWWzkd7pH38 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C39B71296EA for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id g195so72717077qke.2 for ; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:32:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=W08dySfzJzpW8ZyW5Ya0iaXw2YlzLXUMi4KCVUHuJjc=; b=Mj4ei1GlzTwVjhxFpmEXRVUgk3oiyV3kyrxNNbmeYFyUijw0cY5SVx9Nawu6MGJiFV 61FrqEZHunMHO1LiP2z20UFZVp1olQbyTDpczzPl36i/G6lWpiCy+vtaR4l1gcMl38eF ilPb1v+seWzuM8d/u+PXJSvgBkmhP39H0x6OeWMKOsYa1hJp9CP/od4527ciyYe4qUvN XIiJaA11fNvcw+/BfytyKPFSW49iZZhe4wjYsNWAOl7swG/XYwjv+w62BttrXsrA6lhU 3/mRa6HAWP7Rk5W4qZkmmoFhL7r7JyE6pLLCcyzDtfrehncCVaWq5ctiL3YOOfvd1h1F lzdw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=W08dySfzJzpW8ZyW5Ya0iaXw2YlzLXUMi4KCVUHuJjc=; b=mTDnYRm1R61ha0Rj/otWUE2HotDAihAVTMrxCshMHzPtyN4UjhK5Qd2dl5R8fkv5Ux xOJGJGCNBcXb/dIE2hWBHoc5JoE6UXIA0bK2ba45u0MvuKYiJC+H8+h+Mpu4iSDkBWOv La+1P1KBXeUJZP2HLZ3BdKrwDPRP6NOtaTEj/RGdRC+/NFXaui2FzAwpGD2+ycCV1dpQ uoYUra2Rv+LddFuea1xmGkhUeDhn5ELdGU1NAKeMEcza6tyIwpH3FGx/bUZ2yXgJxpdY cmSoyK2SIubcRjZjl678BXWeEl1sflO9uaPyufq/Sas4EAnysuDxdK9Urhkt7UyAloKe DHjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3MGxSOQCh6aReydubptA+m1Z4bkbbXI3FyPJ4RGptHbrhhObZZ+tsjKprKxOGBSqMlRvhn78/2BcQwjQ== X-Received: by 10.233.237.194 with SMTP id c185mr12283576qkg.177.1491319942829; Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.94.113 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:32:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <35bca3fc-a7ca-dfe3-6b1f-fb13a02e6a86@isi.edu> References: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> <35bca3fc-a7ca-dfe3-6b1f-fb13a02e6a86@isi.edu> From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2017 08:32:22 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [iccrg] Bufferbloat and Congestion Control To: Joe Touch Cc: Jim Gettys , Neal Cardwell , "iccrg@irtf.org" , "tsv-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2017 15:32:26 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 3/31/2017 7:47 AM, Jim Gettys wrote: >> One full size packet @ 1mbps == 13 milliseconds. > That sort of blocking is its own problem and the only solution is to use > smaller packets. > > It can be solved at TCP by pushing the MSS down, but for UDP that's > another good reason for considering UDP options as a TSVWG WG item! > I'm not sure how much having MSS for UDP solves. MSS doesn't give us path MTU, we still need some PMTU discovery in TCP and presumably need this for connected UDP. Tom > Joe > From nobody Tue Apr 11 14:05:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D394126D73 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netapp.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hCtp7J_j-Sps for ; Tue, 11 Apr 2017 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx144.netapp.com (mx144.netapp.com [216.240.21.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5791129AC5 for ; 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charset=us-ascii On 2017-3-31, at 6:41, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: > Lars Eggert said something like: > "Bufferbloat is something that a congestion controller > can't really do anything about anyway... > it's not necessarily a congestion control problem." So just for the record, I don't think that was me, because I missed that = session. Lars --Apple-Mail=_0B2460E4-415F-482B-9715-16B46E950687 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAljtRLQACgkQVLXDCb9w wVeYbBAAnFGdXjSYJvnn3v//E3mJ7H/20qseRUDcsiSXcC6ptf3x9vqxpLl+qLsb zG3bWT9eYTeViduUf7MUjWDpF923cyKy+a7mclPbSOkToHk5/e3XqAYGEXn7U8bb /RPcnxxOEtgfxTTT1DOUb0SecNZviCD3txZrzqFcNsUcq9ciJUbd70A75kciNr0d Je2ARuwZanFpvqotVWdFjJEmKrgzqBLFuz1X26hS1t5cvRSX3rxoEYQu5Vo5h3IV nAFgN9NKCQXwYCflSUsX3/7LAsb32ROMq7lRXjcd+z3hISxGM1A5eBzbmdM6iM8Y HCSSKp95u4/R1jAJ26mvZKZQjEQAhu5dt6iasoCD/iXkdysDDQdlVOxjhXLtvhWu 3W3HshpflP0/BBDMFGFEGSo1x81M1cwN8hr49jg1MCZxn98cqErN9qAy3rzoES2X qygFihIfFIxtI9RxDl5lcmR+/HODXt7462DfD+wBJh4AM3ASKuPXHXmeGCRAwsCH Jf0pqpTLFBAJJpVEOOl+qB2kUbl5kyK8yPtwI9eSG+5m3OMU8BlHvtr18BJPy4wC PjdJTNSUVIe3jdm/f6BPKgHBfoTrsjURXMP/l81tp/1ytRAc6cFwD/sgO76vlpUj ZItWcNrZ3BBZvm8Xg2JNt54B2HIvgftgTH6+pRnWY6/ah1jRBEw= =X5FY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0B2460E4-415F-482B-9715-16B46E950687-- From nobody Wed Apr 12 02:02:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392B51314B5; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:02:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gCexDUeu76Cp; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C8F51314A6; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 02:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1cyE9w-0000l2-8f; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:01:52 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E120B0050F; Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:01:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [iccrg] Bufferbloat and Congestion Control To: "Eggert, Lars" References: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> Cc: "iccrg@irtf.org" , "tsv-area@ietf.org" From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:01:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1491987712.318449048 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 09:02:13 -0000 Hi Lars, Am 11.04.2017 um 23:03 schrieb Eggert, Lars: > On 2017-3-31, at 6:41, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: >> Lars Eggert said something like: >> "Bufferbloat is something that a congestion controller >> can't really do anything about anyway... >> it's not necessarily a congestion control problem." > > So just for the record, I don't think that was me, because I missed that session. It seemed to be in tsvarea II session and I thought you made that comment roughly at 01:25:00: https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=IETF98-TSVAREA-20170327-1520 If it wasn't you, I'm sorry for wrongly stating that. Best regards, Roland From nobody Fri Apr 14 11:15:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476931294FE; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:15:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHruM0tI8xki; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FB0F1294CF; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v3EIEruH012208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Bufferbloat and Congestion Control To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" , tsv-area@ietf.org, "iccrg@irtf.org" References: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 11:14:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: v3EIEruH012208 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:15:18 -0000 On 3/31/2017 6:41 AM, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: > Lars Eggert said something like: > "Bufferbloat is something that a congestion controller > can't really do anything about anyway... > it's not necessarily a congestion control problem." > > I believe that this statement is not correct. FWIW, I can see both sides. I agree with Roland that a single endpoint *can* avoid the impact of bufferbloat *on its individual connection*, e.g., using delay-based feedback. However, having listened again to Lars's comments at the mic, I infer that he's right too - no amount of pairwise congestion control can avoid the aggregate effects of bufferbloat on a path. If others are creating the bloat - individually or by aggregation - then nothing you can do will avoid it. I.e., a solution to bufferbloat always requires fixing the queuing in the buffers that bloat. It's critical to ensure that flows don't create bloated delays for each other, but much less critical that they necessarily correct for the mistakes of a single endpoint pair (unless that's part of fixing the former). Joe From nobody Fri Apr 14 13:55:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256DC1294EC; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u1379eZ_SFi4; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 274A712952C; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 13:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1cz8FT-0000QT-Lj; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:55:19 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A0E7B0039A; Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:55:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Bufferbloat and Congestion Control To: Joe Touch , tsv-area@ietf.org, "iccrg@irtf.org" References: <20510c04-ec82-9c2f-8900-c99ec5abcecb@kit.edu> From: Roland Bless Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:55:19 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1492203319.740224642 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2017 20:55:28 -0000 Hi Joe, On 14.04.2017 at 20:14 Joe Touch wrote: > On 3/31/2017 6:41 AM, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: >> Lars Eggert said something like: >> "Bufferbloat is something that a congestion controller >> can't really do anything about anyway... >> it's not necessarily a congestion control problem." >> >> I believe that this statement is not correct. > FWIW, I can see both sides. > > I agree with Roland that a single endpoint *can* avoid the impact of > bufferbloat *on its individual connection*, e.g., using delay-based > feedback. > However, having listened again to Lars's comments at the mic, I infer > that he's right too - no amount of pairwise congestion control can avoid > the aggregate effects of bufferbloat on a path. If others are creating > the bloat - individually or by aggregation - then nothing you can do > will avoid it. I tried to give a counter example that congestion control could avoid bufferbloat, however, under the assumption that _everyone_ uses the same delay-based congestion control. Since one can't exclude misbehaving flows, an AQM is a good safe guard, that also enables the use of ECN. So yes, we better use both mechanisms. 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x-forefront-prvs: 02788FF38E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(39410400002)(39450400003)(39400400002)(39840400002)(377424004)(24454002)(25786009)(122556002)(53546009)(3280700002)(6916009)(8936002)(2950100002)(50226002)(50986999)(4001150100001)(5660300001)(76176999)(2906002)(189998001)(305945005)(7736002)(81166006)(2900100001)(8676002)(229853002)(54906002)(6306002)(6512007)(2171002)(36756003)(6246003)(110136004)(38730400002)(6436002)(53936002)(86362001)(3660700001)(33656002)(6486002)(6506006)(102836003)(6116002)(77096006)(57306001)(4326008); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0601MB1155; H:BN3PR0601MB1153.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <592C56D79272FD4F9D8499E3F8D8095A@namprd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Apr 2017 10:18:58.7612 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4b0911a0-929b-4715-944b-c03745165b3a X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0601MB1155 X-OriginatorOrg: netapp.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:19:21 -0000 On 2017-4-12, at 11:01, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: > Am 11.04.2017 um 23:03 schrieb Eggert, Lars: >> On 2017-3-31, at 6:41, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote: >>> Lars Eggert said something like: >>> "Bufferbloat is something that a congestion controller >>> can't really do anything about anyway... >>> it's not necessarily a congestion control problem." >>=20 >> So just for the record, I don't think that was me, because I missed that= session. >=20 > It seemed to be in tsvarea II session and I thought you made that > comment roughly at 01:25:00: >=20 > https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=3DIETF98-TSVAREA-20170327= -1520 >=20 > If it wasn't you, I'm sorry for wrongly stating that. Ah, sorry - I got this via the ICCRG list, and thought you referred to that= session. Lars= From nobody Tue Apr 25 14:17:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16A4129353 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OUe1bCkxx7Xf for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 133EE1252BA for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l18so42800912ywh.3 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OuNbsGVZGrxSLeZdu3lRsubsUQw89xpHCsznFWtQXAY=; b=FLizX4oOvEfSik7xCX1F6DTkOd0enX2iAnzhEp5e8gJd4QUKi+aLXPY77n//kNq4wL 6ORLEbrJAyuSWCJDge36r3iDSGF8+Flld3ldrAI6CFi9pa29ejHFMzJk8HrHZDXzLfmW z9xrkZgVh3OBFDg9b8Jl4cSbmS8vcqQBvIuNXOIAg1XoBZgccv7TLDZOq8hotGuzSRSc zOTani8KVJuWckcN8AvocpyGLArDpnIz5uA2mceryFz4x+LU58sDv0knRdi+vP+IWl3r +LtCVk5QzumUibjxc/dK2E0A2J4FItfR+2Mun5JahKLmqGeKoY7ujFhK7G5FYzCNMlki +3sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OuNbsGVZGrxSLeZdu3lRsubsUQw89xpHCsznFWtQXAY=; b=KbkzckKZboIT2WYzhwr7deWQoyxmtLCyohHboRYeQO2ERxNDJf55Rwr5t9PPFU5v3s ST626KHRnyKIuwp4Zz8ptDXDMFnupd9j3UrQn83n8lPLF3IEwbxyTvmeDzKg7ajWu7If PNm15YSE1SffLDkQa3aOSr6pWUBsdWrVj4riRcb0BpdsagddTNnpUx/DHX9Hy1PIzkLQ TylMTbulkx/PhMFZhha3UIUtz7uHwQBoOnMAMAl5rxCPEc3GiYCaWRmw1Wwpr/PP6QjM 3yTs8N5g4cq6As42vWtA53ISi+dWxoy00ENvU5CGyZY+vy7KLTiH8SfxtZTtZAlMQb2y OYcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/7RRRwLjSOIhYtgqWoiCnqMZ/mF/4jLLSr4CCN3onbb+tp1IWNn ZsR8W+2VFrXCREoBpug1gilD2bLAzCme X-Received: by 10.129.128.198 with SMTP id q189mr11940065ywf.348.1493155073166; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.73.129 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Apr 2017 14:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:17:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: PRELIMINARY Minutes for TSVAREA at IETF 98 To: "tsv-area@ietf.org >> tsv-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c030c18bb195d054e0441f3 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:17:56 -0000 --94eb2c030c18bb195d054e0441f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 These are a couple of days overdue - my apologies. You can retrieve them at https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/minutes/minutes-98-tsvarea-00. I especially want to thank the note-takers this time. If I missed your name in the credits, please let me know, and I'll add it before the minutes are final. Please let me know if I got anything fabulously wrong, of course! Spencer, as AD --94eb2c030c18bb195d054e0441f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
These are a couple of days overdue - my apologies.
You can retrieve them at=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/proceedin= gs/98/minutes/minutes-98-tsvarea-00.

I especiall= y want to thank the note-takers this time. If I missed your name in the cre= dits, please let me know, and I'll add it before the minutes are final.=

Please let me know if I got anything fabulously w= rong, of course!

Spencer, as AD
--94eb2c030c18bb195d054e0441f3-- From nobody Wed Apr 26 02:10:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E29131A50 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2017 02:10:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qcFnHN-Vv2i0 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2017 02:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A571131A59 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2017 02:10:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type: In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6Hi/HKPobnYH53Q2YFZerz2/DPSLVmB1g2j70hxAOvo=; b=bfdJ/Q16A7UI8v88qI8dJtcX3y oSFMS0ijO2vUqdli1qxImJj3Ie5PqidIxpMGWuL5W8PYKcsRoA+fWdiAZTeozZMJN969o2tBOEN58 PS57xKkDSl9VbiAvhOT3GTrafdXf0oWzylGvulIs/igXEG+RB2MFekLXACb2UvbmRz/nmbdJfLu+8 holnTJLExFRoIw9uIwxbOMEXOGZ/aF7v3X6Q6S6xDhaJUcQleG7a40O1ZVnUwIK2fwakv7cbbuEdA 1xO1nuI2JlKp1vcIbWXmpqIz+fTFiazzza5T1Po/4nwKxqhPD8xmnwJlhhX8BlU4PhKhsQh2Z51do /JQ6r3wQ==; Received: from 188.6.208.46.dyn.plus.net ([46.208.6.188]:59338 helo=[192.168.0.2]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1d3IyG-0008OS-Oh; Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:10:48 +0100 Subject: Re: PRELIMINARY Minutes for TSVAREA at IETF 98 To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "EARDLEY, Phil" , Dave Dolson References: Cc: "tsv-area@ietf.org >> tsv-area@ietf.org" From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: <83309abe-4acb-6a46-0b0f-2a2582f3d848@bobbriscoe.net> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 10:10:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:10:53 -0000 Spencer, Phil, Dave, and anonymous etherpad contributors, Thx so much for these excellent comprehensive notes. I was attending remotely and I gave up halfway thru partly cos I was having meetecho timeout problems, and partly cos I forgot the CC discussion had been bumped from ICCRG to TSVAREA. So these notes have really helped me catch up. I don't see anything wrong or missing from the notes of sessions I did attend. Cheers Bob On 25/04/17 22:17, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > These are a couple of days overdue - my apologies. > > You can retrieve them at > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98/minutes/minutes-98-tsvarea-00. > > I especially want to thank the note-takers this time. If I missed your > name in the credits, please let me know, and I'll add it before the > minutes are final. > > Please let me know if I got anything fabulously wrong, of course! > > Spencer, as AD -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/