From nobody Thu Oct 5 13:32:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD3713431D; Thu, 5 Oct 2017 13:32:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Roni Even To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150723555019.6082.7533786793027090993@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:32:30 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2017 20:32:30 -0000 Reviewer: Roni Even Review result: Ready I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed by the IESG for the IETF Chair. Please treat these comments just like any other last call comments. For more information, please see the FAQ at . Document: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-?? Reviewer: Roni Even Review Date: 2017-10-05 IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-09 IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat Summary: The document is ready for publication as a standard track RFC Major issues: Minor issues: Nits/editorial comments: From nobody Tue Oct 10 17:24:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E4FF1346DA; Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:23:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sarah Banks To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150768143614.24836.9833010909595161108@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 17:23:56 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 00:23:56 -0000 Reviewer: Sarah Banks Review result: Ready I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included in AD reviews during the IESG review. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. Status: Ready Overall, this is a well written document, explaining the problem, discussing the concerns, and makes proposals. As a reader, I appreciated the discussion around the IEEE/IETF issues, for lack of a better term, and the discussion around the existing RFCs, leading to a clear explanation of the task at hand, even though it's pretty lengthy. Kudos to the authors (or WG?) for considering an applicability statement. Extra kudos to the authors for Section 1.4 (I might have to steal this idea too). Overall, I thought it was clear, reads well, and is ready to go. A small note; nits is not clean, and I'd like to see us get into a habit of sending clean nits drafts into the queue. Please resolve your open nits issues. Thanks Sarah From nobody Wed Oct 11 15:55:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7E01321A2 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 15:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wcet0FY8YrG8 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu [18.9.25.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2E2C1241F3 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1209190c-873ff70000001ed1-81-59dea16ebce1 Received: from mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu ( [18.9.21.43]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by dmz-mailsec-scanner-1.mit.edu (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id C3.D3.07889.E61AED95; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from outgoing-exchange-3.mit.edu (OUTGOING-EXCHANGE-3.MIT.EDU [18.9.28.13]) by mailhub-auth-3.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.9.2) with ESMTP id v9BMtf9F027094 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:55:41 -0400 Received: from OC11EXEDGE4.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU (OC11EXEDGE4.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU [18.9.3.27]) by outgoing-exchange-3.mit.edu (8.13.8/8.12.4) with ESMTP id v9BMtbXh015262 for ; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:55:40 -0400 Received: from OC11EXHUB11.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.3.25) by OC11EXEDGE4.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU (18.9.3.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:55:21 -0400 Received: from OC11EXPO33.exchange.mit.edu ([169.254.1.214]) by OC11EXHUB11.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.3.25]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:55:38 -0400 From: Samuel DeLaughter To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: SCTP INIT Parameters Thread-Index: AQHTQuQOIlHZ8noBtkOiPishT0yDKQ== Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:55:38 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [128.30.9.96] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BCEE499B-4762-417D-AF83-C6E0864F4376"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrFKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUixCmqrZu38F6kQeMRMYtjb+6yOTB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEr4+HvsywFJ4Qq3q1cx9jAuEagi5GTQ0LARGLKo2mMXYxcHEIC i5kkpu3bCOVcZZR48nMRlHOHUeLiicdQznZGibbjd6Cc1YwSe+YfZepi5OBgE1CTuL+uAmSu iICqxOWOtUwgtrCArMSXw1vYIeJKEs9n7GaCsPUkJt1sZgaxWYDqf96czgpi8wpYSby7OJ8N xGYUEJP4fmoNWD2zgLjErSfzmSDuFpF4ePE0G4QtJvFv10MoW16i4/ImVpDbmAVmMEpMv7eC DWKooMTJmU9YJjCKzEIyaxayullI6iCKtCWWLXzNDGFrSuzvXg4Vl5fY/nYOVNxSYv2OT+wQ tq3EunXvoWoMJOY0T2ZawMi5ilE2JbdKNzcxM6c4NVm3ODkxLy+1SNdQLzezRC81pXQTIzga JXl2MJ5543WIUYCDUYmH94XWvUgh1sSy4srcQ4ySHExKorwPY4BCfEn5KZUZicUZ8UWlOanF hxhVgHY92rD6AqMUS15+XqqSCO+3LKA63pTEyqrUonyYMmkOFiVx3m1BuyKFBNITS1KzU1ML UotgsjIcHEoSvA0LgBoFi1LTUyvSMnNKENJMHJyHGCU4eICGB4PU8BYXJOYWZ6ZD5E8xKkqJ 8xaDJARAEhmleXC9kCTKLP2KURzoLWFeEZAqHmAChut+BTSYCWiwaNodkMEliQgpqQZG81NH +pmc7j5gWJ3hxnDFbJ3z0qM/W1uiba5UevAJPg/mVPLebnH5pu1UiZ49ge15WayPzTT1i00P b+cqdI1yfH/bU/lMKGvatZPM21b6/DXrPO/+p+cv67fO1J19z7n0c6sPb5z1ZQGH/Y94caEL iQXC+WJaGbJzeQ1PHtpYemxZt+j08r9KLMUZiYZazEXFiQAIOG3gfQMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] SCTP INIT Parameters X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:55:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BCEE499B-4762-417D-AF83-C6E0864F4376 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi All, I=E2=80=99m a doctoral student researching Denial of Service = vulnerabilities in SCTP, and am hoping someone here might be able to = answer some questions about the optional parameters in INIT chunks. = Specifically, I=E2=80=99m curious why the IPv4 Address and IPv6 Address = parameters would be included in the INIT rather than the COOKIE ECHO. = My understanding is that the receiver of an INIT should maintain no = state about the sender after sending the INIT ACK =E2=80=94 does the = receiver actually do anything with the addresses provided in optional = parameters before the COOKIE ECHO is received, or is there some reason = that the COOKIE ECHO chunk needs to be kept short? Was there ever a = discussion about the best place to put these parameters during the early = days of SCTP? Any insight you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Sam -- -- Samuel DeLaughter Doctoral Student / Research Assistant Advanced Network Architecture Group Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Massachusetts Institute of Technology --Apple-Mail=_BCEE499B-4762-417D-AF83-C6E0864F4376 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJZ3qFnAAoJECFOwOotDjpYVQ8QAKpdma2dcQDIs7GMIsE+reM0 giqYTF9D7jVIuQK2v2/Nsul9asETc1xREmNMwctoYoJ5Ax77cuk70AKP1GoWjGLW qunT1DkRswwYJkcj3lT7NmekWfqvbMS8DIAoRdUqIqB3b95AdE/vY++cuLzHCHkF qGV9hZe4ohkC1qtYc2H+8y4li/iwn9+mhaZKFIrdbJcwQ4EJbakuy3/59IK/h3BR 2Pu0vMMRu1LQ2D7ZhDHCuyhghhBvGLCxHejaOgpSYQZJP/yuNvTR9z51oBavvbZg U4MohH6HSV3zr8i3/Xk8JCRNTmB7P5ttUGftj6dmrhytV58c8MZ6CbgBVaXrDXey ec/YD4X51cPS3ytvVwjvJrXojisnh18pQzipJsdNhGH51OTJDtkpyBnG4Yhh9Cl3 NunHV175hS9UxLtXOMPUlBnYjHS23FXcfzMtXs37qbkRVIevYk3EGT2rpsRmB7ez dnrQM9gjJC2N7WGRcn0sfNrkHqe8E9vhk1FSDier1ZErat4gE3y7771vamXBI9aA Wi9UK1iyvgzJYyx5CR07Ewa25p7nS3VorcSr6nBNiizMknxFm3yVhjfn9/MK3jPa udixVZGjlao7CCZTFc/53drLJQD5ldqf5QfqliCgbOQYkFMhvvmEzOUXq9tbXxpb aTzEZM9DdXSf6EsRNdnF =HvvO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BCEE499B-4762-417D-AF83-C6E0864F4376-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 11:51:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0407C132193 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6wep6GRzq7m3 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:241:204::f0f0]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E605126B6E for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Gs-MacBook-Pro.local (fgrpf.plus.com [212.159.18.54]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D3DE41B0009E for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:51:36 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <59E65137.5060605@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:51:35 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Organization: University of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tsvwg@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] TSV WG Scheduling at IETF-100 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 18:51:45 -0000 Please note the two provisionally allocated timetable slots for this coming meeting are: -- 17:40-18:40 Monday Afternoon session III -- 9:30-11:30 Friday Morning session I The longer, being on Friday morning. If you desire time to present your draft - or results relevant to tsvwg, please let the chairs know, and we shall start to build a draft timetable for the meeting! Gorry, David and Wes. 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(mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.19]) by maildlpprd56.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:08:43 -0400 Received: from MXHUB312.corp.emc.com (MXHUB312.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.90]) by mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9HJ8uW3017354 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:08:57 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB312.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.90]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:08:56 -0400 To: Eric Rescorla , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , Gorry Fairhurst , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTNZACfaEa6OtM0Ey/yqnUy/PnFKLohpjA Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:08:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150629707140.4996.1867978439109440854.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150629707140.4996.1867978439109440854.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd54.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Eric Rescorla's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:09:26 -0000 RWtyLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBjYXJlZnVsIHJldmlldy4gIEVkaXRzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBp bmxpbmUgYmVsb3cgYXJlIGluIGEgd29ya2luZyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIHdoYXQgd2lsbCBiZWNvbWUg 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"draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3RzdndnXSBNaXJqYSBLw7xobGV3aW5kJ3MgTm8gT2JqZWN0aW9uIG9uIGRy?= =?utf-8?B?YWZ0LWlldGYtdHN2d2ctZWNuLWV4cGVyaW1lbnRhdGlvbi0wNjogKHdpdGgg?= =?utf-8?Q?COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHTNv+ClzCns5pHU0+Prp6t5dTWpqLIlVkAgB/0nfA= Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:44:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150645491115.20804.4979473918843941790.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd52.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft?= =?utf-8?q?-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list 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(mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.18]) by maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:55:57 -0400 Received: from MXHUB316.corp.emc.com (MXHUB316.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.94]) by mailusrhubprd53.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9HJu06i013154 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:56:01 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB316.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.94]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:56:00 -0400 To: Adam Roach , The IESG CC: "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , Gorry Fairhurst , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTN0aTPHXzspp/UkGSEnZLAN1SUKLokkiw Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:56:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 17 Oct 2017 16:49:52 -0500 From: "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwhop.emc.com ([168.159.213.141]) by esa5.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Oct 2017 03:43:18 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.37]) by mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9HLo9Hi024345 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:50:10 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com v9HLo9Hi024345 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1508277011; bh=+rGAAHk5s9mkYDPEdV8jAK39RuI=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=bbhqns6KBuFjnOkubyXdnDf3BCmyiErL7NHzUxv6C9BIhsZRdPpSLeJShAa4Ztss7 tOYYu1VKi2W4/uEfCe7TJTRCmB8NyhW85VGbw7ZuQH/ipxbYe/KmWbr3KzG20cSIw8 hsKlW7PrHY9pw4xM2SOU3mtTkV8FZaGYH8ZoA+d4= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd02.lss.emc.com v9HLo9Hi024345 Received: from mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.20]) by maildlpprd05.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:48:49 -0400 Received: from MXHUB301.corp.emc.com (MXHUB301.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.27]) by mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9HLnmuN014818 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:49:49 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB301.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 17:49:48 -0400 To: Ben Campbell , The IESG CC: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTN/RfLAmKwKaDGEeo+i+hL7FAtaLoqZrw Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 21:49:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 21:50:15 -0000 QmVuLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBjYXJlZnVsIHJldmlldywgY29tbWVudHMgaW5saW5lIC4u 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(envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.82] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.0 \(3445.1.7\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:14:48 -0500 Cc: The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:15:01 -0000 > On Oct 17, 2017, at 4:49 PM, Black, David = wrote: >=20 > Ben, >=20 > Thanks for the careful review, comments inline ... text changes are in = my working version of what will become the -07 version of this draft. >=20 > I'll start a separate thread to follow up on the RTP requirement = change concern. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell >> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:54 PM >> To: The IESG >> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; >> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>=20 >> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: No Objection >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Substantive: >>=20 >> General: >>=20 >> I agree with Ekr's comment specifying RFC updates as text"patches" is >> confusing and unfriendly to the reader. While I don't necessarily = agree that >> we should do bis drafts instead, I hope people will remember that we = never >> actually render an "updated" RFC with the patches applied. I think = this sort >> of thing would be easier to understand if we just spoke of the = changes at a >> conceptual level and avoid getting wrapped around changing specific = words to >> other specific words. I don't expect that to change with this = particular >> draft, but I think the IESG should consider some guidance here. (And = I fully >> recognize that a lot of update drafts in ART do the same thing.) >>=20 > [David>] Been there, tried that in earlier versions of the draft, = received clear direction to spell out the details =E2=80=A6 Yeah, that comment wasn=E2=80=99t really for you :-) >>=20 >> -1, first paragraph: "An Experimental RFC MUST be published for any = protocol >> or mechanism that takes advantage of any of these enabling = updates." >>=20 >> This seems like an odd use of 2119 language, at least for something = other than >> a BCP. Furthermore, I don't think this paragraph is the real = authority on the >> matter, since there is much more precise text scattered through the = draft about >> this particular requirement. Therefore, I suggest removing the 2119 = language >> and stating this descriptively. (e.g. "Mechanisms that take advantage = of these >> updates are to be specified in experimental RFCs.") >>=20 > [David>] Copied sentence from Abstract: " An Experimental RFC is = required to take advantage of any of these enabling updates.=E2=80=9D WFM >=20 >> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring = experimental RFCs. >> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>=20 > [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are = Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. Right. Of course. >>=20 >> -5, first "patch": >> Are there existing implementations that would become noncompliant = with the new text? >>=20 > [David>] I don't think so, but I will double check w/an RTP expert and = back off MUST/MUST NOT to SHOULD/SHOULD NOT if there's any doubt. As = indicated in one of Mirja's comments, we (Transport folks) would prefer = to prohibit this behavior. That seem like a reasonable approach. >=20 >> -9, 1st paragraph: "As a process memo that only removes limitations = on proposed >> experiments, there are no protocol security considerations." >> I am skeptical that removing limitations from experiments can be = assumed to be >> security neutral on its face. Please consider documenting the thought = process >> that led to that conclusion. >>=20 > [David>] It's actually spelled out in the very next sentence: = "Security considerations for the proposed experiments are discussed in = the Internet-Drafts that propose them." > Should that be strengthened? If so, please suggest text. (disclaimer: I don=E2=80=99t have the text in front of me right this = moment): Would it be worth saying something to the effect that any = future experiments need to do the same? [Responses to my editorial comments all look fine.} Thanks! Ben.= From nobody Wed Oct 18 11:15:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FB213293A; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=gYpQeO9V; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=TpE/Twak Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IPIVG1qopnjd; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0D781321C7; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 11:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01BA22096D; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:15:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=MsIPmtc5F88sFpR+uy6wIXIrUMYzU t32YGf7CFEaXfA=; b=gYpQeO9VH/SdaCQwqzBOpe8I46h1Bsdogt2cmeRxWsJqo 2XcxqrctrXHyKjvDmkE+WpP7NkkFCoPpTLIkBtGQswYHOGWHuTXTV5w4WdZX0K27 gxqHzb/Y0GMYthjo5Qryo7mwgvMwXjGfKitafPm88VuEIRICyObntZR5BhIrL+Lp eSf7LCIKS+4rUKb/0MwNR4BuG1WUUJSaSldMp/+74dpUv7INX1TYFVw8c37iwzuZ OA/C1MTzuC12V5ZWft+Qz78p/XsHldFL0xVC1264Mpqda9nzgldM7pf8G3M+cFr+ dIF6URnrU4rPSuzqr6KeqRn67iSuABc3reS9E5KXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=MsIPmt c5F88sFpR+uy6wIXIrUMYzUt32YGf7CFEaXfA=; b=TpE/TwakOPPuEFEONztpDz z/sVzhQW+5MpMIeywmCFItcAMr4U2oyjuzUlXGiup9S+ScryclCWTaQmcYFTozcH ve4Xlt3YkbThckUB6oUumhZCtPoHaFzl72r3KMFVf5pbYVwRmjbBIzABYHtqD2AB fTsnuJvbh5IHuzexg95ZkU9IfDbVG5ZU62MGdKvx/odsIL+fo0+Fjzr9ofuWvhux +22gvn/M/j7kOingOBLl+pupSZOk0ZDf7Ln3S0cQUHeV3YCufpOPpWiFGW0VQAz1 p4LwqAHSWO2WSCksJ4U695eJbHGGGXUrOGnCOY0rolR5efo7a5PhYKkL2lPgeE4Q == X-ME-Sender: Received: from [10.7.118.167] (unknown [85.255.236.162]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8F7907F961; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13G35) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:20:44 +0100 Cc: Ben Campbell , The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Black, David" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:15:34 -0000 On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David wrote: >> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring experimental= RFCs. >> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? > [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are Informational,= and cannot be published as Experimental. Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. From nobody Wed Oct 18 14:39:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C0C1320DC; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=P0nwRLPU; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=emc.com header.b=m4OM20uL Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uSGLWHylJjoU; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa3.dell-outbound.iphmx.com (esa3.dell-outbound.iphmx.com [68.232.153.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17B3613292A; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 14:39:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dell.com; i=@dell.com; q=dns/txt; s=smtpout; t=1508362610; x=1539898610; h=from:cc:to:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=K7LysDjbPF4Kh5iuzY+tmoY4pe9JnSvtxrKmsMlBvDw=; b=P0nwRLPUW/W/Eu/a6UWqZ3Nv9uMG0GMo78jBOYiUXNRLdsv9jMWzLa+s El6H5z8+SW7VpRI9GrUJaVNwfEbUTEmXfmw3AJwJYLMo4f5S6hjM4r5VM wKZ9K87BbS2vJ/OnHAA+Rw3IamtEyqOrn5UUrv3Zd4CchOVd4IIdEXWzY A=; Received: from esa2.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com ([68.232.153.202]) by esa3.dell-outbound.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Oct 2017 16:36:49 -0500 From: "Black, David" Cc: Ben Campbell , The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com ([128.221.224.79]) by esa2.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Oct 2017 03:36:56 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com [10.106.48.157]) by mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9ILd94M023370 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:39:10 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com v9ILd94M023370 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1508362751; bh=20HALayEvY9kDhrQakeSpqpbnGg=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=m4OM20uLuRgcwSwHm+78DxCEV1u6gyg8giJ6v2PSlDHJdHdW+adS/Cp2OIXJpN2YJ jyGd1h0zLdkYquEEEFGqGi54Q3vPjbIyD0yTVTaJGf4LxOExalQtzKbqpJogSS5mvZ 2fhqACRyLjO6GZZl4nSJqTYlZbR4ic5/Wwcr46I0= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd52.lss.emc.com v9ILd94M023370 Received: from mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.19]) by maildlpprd53.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:38:45 -0400 Received: from MXHUB319.corp.emc.com (MXHUB319.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.97]) by mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9ILcnd2004840 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:38:50 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB319.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.97]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:38:49 -0400 To: Alexey Melnikov Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTN/RfLAmKwKaDGEeo+i+hL7FAtaLoqZrwgAGlKgD//+/ZEA== Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:38:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> In-Reply-To: <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd01.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:39:22 -0000 That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we don't wa= nt to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:aamelnikov@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:21 PM > To: Black, David > Cc: Ben Campbell ; The IESG ; > gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; > tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >=20 > On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David wrote: >=20 > >> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring experimen= tal > RFCs. > >> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? > > [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are > Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >=20 > Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. >=20 From nobody Wed Oct 18 15:12:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E69C0134338; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:12:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dell.com; i=@dell.com; q=dns/txt; s=smtpout; t=1508364726; x=1539900726; h=from:cc:to:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=UiGcdEbv54jiIsHWtGF7wnEoNktmPntSiY+yBSa3AyQ=; b=Uwxcy79j0LEZsnaLfBxoJx4SgMmJNxVHqc85l8OtC+wH2YVC+azhOG47 aFGMEgbZvVKMqqFGiCPqj7/PCKTa9R9DBH7wVY37WyFzoQrCkftEQVTQc 0BDc3szCOeaivNmpazuh13BzlPOF+xjlyEoHe20Ktjq+w4HPXkBg96kf6 Q=; Received: from esa6.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com ([68.232.154.99]) by esa4.dell-outbound.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Oct 2017 17:12:06 -0500 From: "Black, David" Cc: The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwdur.emc.com ([128.221.224.79]) by 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(port=25089 helo=[172.26.10.124]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e4wrC-0003oB-OZ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:30:35 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15A432) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:30:31 -0700 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , The IESG , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <656E48D0-B279-490C-8778-897CD1913320@strayalpha.com> References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> To: "Black, David" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 22:30:41 -0000 > On Oct 18, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Black, David wrote: >=20 > That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we don't w= ant to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. Perhaps, but there are other valid experiments, eg using experimental code p= oints.=20 See www.ietf.org/iesg/informational-vs-experimental.html sec 4.2.1 Joe= From nobody Wed Oct 18 15:53:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A354D1320B5; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:53:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=yDZW5p4+; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=emc.com header.b=UXhRpTfd Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bVPEoTZI8alc; 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Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:43 -0400 Received: from MXHUB306.corp.emc.com (MXHUB306.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.32]) by mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9IMqlFH032478 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:47 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB306.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:47 -0400 To: Joe Touch Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTN/RfLAmKwKaDGEeo+i+hL7FAtaLoqZrwgAGlKgD//+/ZEIAAVfGA///AVrA= Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 22:52:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> <656E48D0-B279-490C-8778-897CD1913320@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <656E48D0-B279-490C-8778-897CD1913320@strayalpha.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd03.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 22:53:02 -0000 > Perhaps, but there are other valid experiments, eg using experimental cod= e points. Well, if there were any unallocated ECN codepoints, assigning one for exper= imentation would be a fine move, IMHO. Needless to say, there aren't ;-) -= all four ECN codepoints are allocated, and this draft goes to considerable= length to pry one of them, ECT(1), loose enough to be used for at least th= e L4S experiment. Permanently designating ECT(1) for experimental usage seems like a bad idea= , as there are no other codepoints available for successful experiments to = employ when standardized. > See www.ietf.org/iesg/informational-vs-experimental.html sec 4.2.1 Well, point 4 in sec 3 (Guidelines) of that document seems determinative he= re, as it describes what is going on with the experiments noted in this dra= ft: 4. If the IETF may publish something based on this on the standards track o= nce we know how well this one works, it's Experimental. This is the typical= case of not being able to decide which protocol is "better" before we have= experience of dealing with them from a stable specification. Case in point= : "PGM Reliable Transport Protocol Specification" (RFC 3208) Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Touch [mailto:touch@strayalpha.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 6:31 PM > To: Black, David > Cc: Alexey Melnikov ; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; > tsvwg@ietf.org; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; The IESG > ; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Oct 18, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Black, David wrote: > > > > That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we don'= t want > to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. >=20 > Perhaps, but there are other valid experiments, eg using experimental cod= e > points. >=20 > See www.ietf.org/iesg/informational-vs-experimental.html sec 4.2.1 >=20 > Joe From nobody Wed Oct 18 16:42:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: 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Oct 2017 16:56:40 -0700 Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> <656E48D0-B279-490C-8778-897CD1913320@strayalpha.com> To: "Black, David" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 23:56:50 -0000 > On Oct 18, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Black, David wrote: >=20 > Permanently designating ECT(1) for experimental usage seems like a bad ide= a, as there are no other codepoints available for successful experiments to e= mploy when standardized. Agreed. I was giving an example, not related to this doc, of a valid individ= ual experimental RFC.=20 Joe= From nobody Wed Oct 18 17:48:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32CD6126B6E for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D5GhWl05jusk for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x236.google.com (mail-pg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53F4D13314B for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x236.google.com with SMTP id s2so5658070pge.10 for ; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UZt3eMelQaJ651U90QzRkjUHkAh1slbXwmbgRoZwII0=; b=JkvaT7c4keJozhjSZH0HIC8koHnFtUyqf01EC7yMZyAzCy8fhhseuztICBIpcEUJ/a N6tzuoJoyZWywkHR+ET7QSvZw5z1Bc3JKZ8pvIyO164DB7db4AJIuk+60YknXEBcULAS 6ivtzN6P66R/Tmy+m9cWllKECAbJRzpkibzzvO4jkwgbUgKwglRG/oYvPjVe6e+p3IA6 w+Q8oeB2+BAjavyRV3/8YarqDrx7Ojtkqs4pu8HuwyNM++JaO4maVoUgFpxLj55wCycn VlbLjI7GGLfY+zEU5rSD0P3jP4XhebbWYaLWCbMVmScwQ6U/ZvsDKpXf5prfn8cr3AKq o+BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UZt3eMelQaJ651U90QzRkjUHkAh1slbXwmbgRoZwII0=; b=UcUdLp1YyY04kzJ9ixmsSuMU2szk6a1Z9XM7xRA0xnCVwuSCYgTp5gw7LeL8KMHTGx swq+IBHJd8EcNhbKqGu05m15Y3kvXXKm3kF3O+jKmq+n0Aab6zHBoB50eWVLGslWJPgw CwifYtxUH22R9e1hq0Bq9CIgsPSlh7fjrL2/aLAqaCF5Ruu1YzYKmJjcLBC03WYNnSy5 MGcWGDh57/4T7Qa2Gri1cRL4tCrCPUI1sOa5+flDcSQMf9+iKW/YJl1GQz/tD2WfAKu6 ipLE7wRxCOaatNrVr+5qJcJjMZUGAGMU/fdjiM/Cd7j8Actal3oOWHWXqxCzl/Sr9xNr /Y4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXw2d8sRM1Y38D82esNsapAY90tLI/CY3TvHXZnnMmCKcidghEc Igrit9920DB+izUb5Hh7RKHNdA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QC3jdsO0W4M57NG83gFmGqQy6dBAa85SpVHnNfKElCBE13gSFOvBhRfLD3aQ1aQ7J3h7l8NOA== X-Received: by 10.98.8.88 with SMTP id c85mr16107207pfd.330.1508374093636; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m9sm23485151pff.26.2017.10.18.17.48.11 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:48:12 -0700 (PDT) To: tsvwg@ietf.org References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:48:17 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:48:16 -0000 On 19/10/2017 10:38, Black, David wrote: > That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we don't want to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. Ah, but that's why it's called the "independent" stream. It's rarely used that way, but if there's a strong case that the IETF side of the house is being unreasonably obstructive, the Independent stream is there as a safety valve. The IRTF stream can also approve Experimental RFCs, iirc. However, none of this can bypass BCP 26, so the applicable IANA policy can trump the Independent and IRTF stream, if IANA registration is needed. Brian > > Thanks, --David > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:aamelnikov@fastmail.fm] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:21 PM >> To: Black, David >> Cc: Ben Campbell ; The IESG ; >> gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; >> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >> >> On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David wrote: >> >>>> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring experimental >> RFCs. >>>> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>> [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are >> Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >> >> Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. >> > > From nobody Wed Oct 18 17:52:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A1B132351; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zCtiJCabXUO7; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 482F5126B6E; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.82] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v9J0qL7w004743 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:52:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.82] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.0 \(3445.1.7\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:52:03 -0500 Cc: The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <998D9ABA-92AD-458D-AB0C-CCEBB1DDBDA8@nostrum.com> References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:52:31 -0000 > On Oct 18, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Black, David = wrote: >=20 >>>> -9, 1st paragraph: "As a process memo that only removes limitations = on proposed >>>> experiments, there are no protocol security considerations." >>>> I am skeptical that removing limitations from experiments can be = assumed to be >>>> security neutral on its face. Please consider documenting the = thought process >>>> that led to that conclusion. >>>>=20 >>> [David>] It's actually spelled out in the very next sentence: = "Security >> considerations for the proposed experiments are discussed in the = Internet- >> Drafts that propose them." >>> Should that be strengthened? If so, please suggest text. >>=20 >> (disclaimer: I don=E2=80=99t have the text in front of me right this = moment): Would it >> be worth saying something to the effect that any future experiments = need >> to do the same? >=20 > Ok, I generalized the second sentence and ran the two sentences = together to connect the concepts - paragraph now reads as follows in my = working copy (NB: Draft title is being changed to "Relaxing Restrictions = on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Experimentation" as part of = dealing with Benoit's Discuss): >=20 > As a process memo that only relaxes restrictions on experimentation, = there are no protocol security considerations, as security = considerations for any experiments that take advantage of the relaxed = restrictions are discussed in the Internet-Drafts that propose the = experiments. That WFM. Thanks! Ben. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ben Campbell [mailto:ben@nostrum.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 12:15 PM >> To: Black, David >> Cc: The IESG ; gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation@ietf.org; tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Oct 17, 2017, at 4:49 PM, Black, David = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Ben, >>>=20 >>> Thanks for the careful review, comments inline ... text changes are = in my >> working version of what will become the -07 version of this draft. >>>=20 >>> I'll start a separate thread to follow up on the RTP requirement = change >> concern. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, --David >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben = Campbell >>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2017 8:54 PM >>>> To: The IESG >>>> Cc: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation@ietf.org; >>>> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >>>> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for >>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: No Objection >>>>=20 >>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >>>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> COMMENT: >>>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>=20 >>>> Substantive: >>>>=20 >>>> General: >>>>=20 >>>> I agree with Ekr's comment specifying RFC updates as text"patches" = is >>>> confusing and unfriendly to the reader. While I don't necessarily = agree >> that >>>> we should do bis drafts instead, I hope people will remember that = we >> never >>>> actually render an "updated" RFC with the patches applied. I think = this >> sort >>>> of thing would be easier to understand if we just spoke of the = changes at >> a >>>> conceptual level and avoid getting wrapped around changing specific >> words to >>>> other specific words. I don't expect that to change with this = particular >>>> draft, but I think the IESG should consider some guidance here. = (And I >> fully >>>> recognize that a lot of update drafts in ART do the same thing.) >>>>=20 >>> [David>] Been there, tried that in earlier versions of the draft, = received >> clear direction to spell out the details =E2=80=A6 >>=20 >> Yeah, that comment wasn=E2=80=99t really for you :-) >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -1, first paragraph: "An Experimental RFC MUST be published for any >> protocol >>>> or mechanism that takes advantage of any of these enabling = updates." >>>>=20 >>>> This seems like an odd use of 2119 language, at least for something = other >> than >>>> a BCP. Furthermore, I don't think this paragraph is the real = authority on >> the >>>> matter, since there is much more precise text scattered through the = draft >> about >>>> this particular requirement. Therefore, I suggest removing the 2119 >> language >>>> and stating this descriptively. (e.g. "Mechanisms that take = advantage of >> these >>>> updates are to be specified in experimental RFCs.") >>>>=20 >>> [David>] Copied sentence from Abstract: " An Experimental RFC is = required >> to take advantage of any of these enabling updates.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> WFM >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring = experimental >> RFCs. >>>> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>>>=20 >>> [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are >> Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >>=20 >> Right. Of course. >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> -5, first "patch": >>>> Are there existing implementations that would become noncompliant >> with the new text? >>>>=20 >>> [David>] I don't think so, but I will double check w/an RTP expert = and back >> off MUST/MUST NOT to SHOULD/SHOULD NOT if there's any doubt. As >> indicated in one of Mirja's comments, we (Transport folks) would = prefer to >> prohibit this behavior. >>=20 >> That seem like a reasonable approach. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -9, 1st paragraph: "As a process memo that only removes limitations = on >> proposed >>>> experiments, there are no protocol security considerations." >>>> I am skeptical that removing limitations from experiments can be >> assumed to be >>>> security neutral on its face. Please consider documenting the = thought >> process >>>> that led to that conclusion. >>>>=20 >>> [David>] It's actually spelled out in the very next sentence: = "Security >> considerations for the proposed experiments are discussed in the = Internet- >> Drafts that propose them." >>> Should that be strengthened? If so, please suggest text. >>=20 >> (disclaimer: I don=E2=80=99t have the text in front of me right this = moment): Would it >> be worth saying something to the effect that any future experiments = need >> to do the same? >>=20 >> [Responses to my editorial comments all look fine.} >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. From nobody Wed Oct 18 17:55:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7130C133528; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ESUkLNNKMs8U; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F1AA126B6E; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 17:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.82] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v9J0tLfX005332 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:55:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.82] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.0 \(3445.1.7\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:55:03 -0500 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , The IESG , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1BFC585F-914E-423B-BA14-DF3D930AEB3B@nostrum.com> References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> To: "Black, David" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:55:31 -0000 https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/independent/ confirms Alexey=E2=80=99s = comment. Does that mean this draft should explicitly require IETF stream = experimental RFCs?=20 Thanks! Ben. > On Oct 18, 2017, at 4:38 PM, Black, David = wrote: >=20 > That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we = don't want to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. >=20 > Thanks, --David >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:aamelnikov@fastmail.fm] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:21 PM >> To: Black, David >> Cc: Ben Campbell ; The IESG ; >> gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; >> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>=20 >> On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David wrote: >>=20 >>>> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring = experimental >> RFCs. >>>> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>> [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are >> Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >>=20 >> Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. >>=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Oct 18 18:52:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C59813301C; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 526HyMd00BP1; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x233.google.com (mail-pg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E01DA12EC30; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id p9so5777293pgc.8; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=66wEnZFkee1zKr2PplhQDMlmwOdL3EJcGksaa4YJyHk=; b=GXWa6OoohHq0vB6xLKwUWzLlESQZ6+3WxBxhg5SBaSyircWg7QJE/57/KJKh5QNnVn 3+x274WmMcAmFyQ3OUnJf/23V8P3O7/8J7OikUdBt785LdSF0Rt7JFzsL+etOHAqx5gO RqUjrOQDli9U3D9G6mGe9bUjqzpdT2TO6CjjnxwSe497eK0FUfKRFiOfGZiFtR55IZLP HTAlnplJpQ8LmEwxgb5E9o9jg6U18O9Bil8iZVQK7hjz7H28mC+aX44kE1ZQLKcBPWuE X9AZAGVsU82Fm69jbMEKGeOzcxFBEyQ3OoxvZsKvaCOxIpJvjpSeflzJjMO7Em7RAalQ AuBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=66wEnZFkee1zKr2PplhQDMlmwOdL3EJcGksaa4YJyHk=; b=ozx0DABOi3iMDHvSWDns3FeXaltJ1894sf64Rt7J81/31npUX4sUUWpsCbh1rAD36R CaqJBTaCTv/Hr1WlxiFLCyZW8UnJXZp4bRbNqcJgF/Sk6ZqO2pXcjMnkQ1+i7vlpI/dF TmkbH0vRmT84SS7Y17/pt5SKlICj11AKJw0zE+DJYo+49i0X7vjS34dXA000LYO+TqOV 3pzyZicmAgi6/S7pWGN+p5uEel+bq8SVZijN646f7h2HXR0/GE0p/H4VnFa60Xf4kgJo AFB0dmqv067S7HMzLDTG1+yW7fMuX1EaythDKlTV8W2LMaKMW0Zf2gEfBdE1XYnyHU3F av4w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUKuWPvbnYqXOOCHhj/VBZVTevRVpZ3uBdhfE6T2WF6NYW0X8Y6 CPVkCzVic5WDP52gTY74/+bVEQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Tn6ckaz3oiEMJz9n94eRo0AYM4x9TJeWR6y/cDM+4xgOGv7R2pwdDbH2eq0gd24O5n0Kf/6Q== X-Received: by 10.84.234.197 with SMTP id i5mr37704plt.316.1508377952187; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q7sm21520470pgn.56.2017.10.18.18.52.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 18:52:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Ben Campbell , "Black, David" Cc: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> <1BFC585F-914E-423B-BA14-DF3D930AEB3B@nostrum.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5abed2be-bdd6-9f6b-a1b6-a4032c2846e5@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 14:52:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1BFC585F-914E-423B-BA14-DF3D930AEB3B@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 01:52:35 -0000 On 19/10/2017 13:55, Ben Campbell wrote: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/independent/ confirms Alexey=E2=80=99s= comment. >=20 > Does that mean this draft should explicitly require IETF stream experim= ental RFCs?=20 You could write that down, but the independent stream is, er, independent= , i.e. intentionally not controlled by the IETF. I am not in the least arguing for doing any such experiments outside the scope of the IETF. I expect that if such a draft came up in the Independe= nt stream, the IESG would advise the ISE that it should not be published. Bu= t the ISE is intentionally entitled to ignore the IESG's advice. ISEs I have known would undoubtedly have exercised common sense in such a case, and told the author(s) to take the work to the IETF, *unless* there was overwhelming evidence that the IETF was acting unreasonably or unfairly. That's why we have the safety valve. Brian (speaking for myself, but I am a member of the Independent Series Advisory Board, https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/ISEB/) >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Oct 18, 2017, at 4:38 PM, Black, David wrote= : >> >> That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we don= 't want to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. >> >> Thanks, --David >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:aamelnikov@fastmail.fm] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:21 PM >>> To: Black, David >>> Cc: Ben Campbell ; The IESG ; >>> gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; >>> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-= ecn- >>> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>> >>> On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David wrote: >>> >>>>> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring experi= mental >>> RFCs. >>>>> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>>> [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are >>> Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >>> >>> Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. >>> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Oct 18 19:40:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30FA8132198; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.88 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.88 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcxCIVPMoI5W; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA293132076; Wed, 18 Oct 2017 19:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.82] (cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v9J2dsW2022975 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:39:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-66-25-7-22.tx.res.rr.com [66.25.7.22] claimed to be [10.0.1.82] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.0 \(3445.1.7\)) From: Ben Campbell In-Reply-To: <5abed2be-bdd6-9f6b-a1b6-a4032c2846e5@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:39:53 -0500 Cc: "Black, David" , "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , "draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org" , "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" , The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> <1BFC585F-914E-423B-BA14-DF3D930AEB3B@nostrum.com> <5abed2be-bdd6-9f6b-a1b6-a4032c2846e5@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.1.7) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 02:40:08 -0000 > On Oct 18, 2017, at 8:52 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 19/10/2017 13:55, Ben Campbell wrote: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/independent/ confirms Alexey=E2=80=99s= comment. >>=20 >> Does that mean this draft should explicitly require IETF stream = experimental RFCs?=20 >=20 > You could write that down, but the independent stream is, er, = independent, > i.e. intentionally not controlled by the IETF. >=20 > I am not in the least arguing for doing any such experiments outside = the > scope of the IETF. I expect that if such a draft came up in the = Independent > stream, the IESG would advise the ISE that it should not be published. = But > the ISE is intentionally entitled to ignore the IESG's advice. >=20 > ISEs I have known would undoubtedly have exercised common sense in = such > a case, and told the author(s) to take the work to the IETF, *unless* > there was overwhelming evidence that the IETF was acting unreasonably > or unfairly. That's why we have the safety valve. I agree with all of that. Maybe the word =E2=80=9Crequire=E2=80=9D was = badly chosen. But it=E2=80=99s worth considering that we can=E2=80=99t really enforce = any part of the =E2=80=9Cyou must document any use of this experimental = code point in an experimental RFC=E2=80=9D bit. People can run = experiments without telling us. The best we can do is document the = intent of the working group. (IIUC, the David plans to remove the 2119 = language around this.) If the ISE decides to publish such a document = anyway, so be it=E2=80=94but maybe writing down the intent will help = inform that decision. Ben. >=20 > Brian > (speaking for myself, but I am a member of the Independent Series > Advisory Board, https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/ISEB/) >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 >>> On Oct 18, 2017, at 4:38 PM, Black, David = wrote: >>>=20 >>> That's a surprise, at least to me - I'm reasonably certain that we = don't want to see this sort of experimentation done via ISE stream RFCs. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, --David >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:aamelnikov@fastmail.fm] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 2:21 PM >>>> To: Black, David >>>> Cc: Ben Campbell ; The IESG ; >>>> gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk; = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org; >>>> tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on = draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- >>>> experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) >>>>=20 >>>> On 17 Oct 2017, at 22:49, Black, David = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>>> Speaking of which, there are several references to requiring = experimental >>>> RFCs. >>>>>> Are those expected to be IETF stream RFCs? >>>>> [David>] Yes, independent submissions (ISE stream) RFCs are >>>> Informational, and cannot be published as Experimental. >>>>=20 >>>> Independent Stream RFCs can be Informational or Experimental. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Oct 19 08:04:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DC5134939; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.721 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.721 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit 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MXHUB318.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.96]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 11:03:13 -0400 To: Ben Campbell , Brian E Carpenter Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHTN/RfLAmKwKaDGEeo+i+hL7FAtaLoqZrwgAGlKgD//+/ZEIAAflOAgAAQEYCAAA05gIAAh5OA Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:03:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150656006611.13804.15109883563794101461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5528580C-EBDD-4EE9-9F3E-BFAF51F617AA@fastmail.fm> <1BFC585F-914E-423B-BA14-DF3D930AEB3B@nostrum.com> <5abed2be-bdd6-9f6b-a1b6-a4032c2846e5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.238.44.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Ben Campbell's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:04:00 -0000 PiBCdXQgaXTigJlzIHdvcnRoIGNvbnNpZGVyaW5nIHRoYXQgd2UgY2Fu4oCZdCByZWFsbHkgZW5m b3JjZSBhbnkgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUg4oCceW91DQo+IG11c3QgZG9jdW1lbnQgYW55IHVzZSBvZiB0 aGlzIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBjb2RlIHBvaW50IGluIGFuIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbA0KPiBSRkPigJ0g Yml0LiBQZW9wbGUgY2FuIHJ1biBleHBlcmltZW50cyB3aXRob3V0IHRlbGxpbmcgdXMuIFRoZSBi ZXN0IHdlIGNhbiBkbw0KPiBpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGUgaW50ZW50IG9mIHRoZSB3b3JraW5nIGdy b3VwLiAoSUlVQywgdGhlIERhdmlkIHBsYW5zIHRvDQo+IHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgMjExOSBsYW5ndWFn ZSBhcm91bmQgdGhpcy4pIElmIHRoZSBJU0UgZGVjaWRlcyB0byBwdWJsaXNoIHN1Y2ggYQ0KPiBk b2N1bWVudCBhbnl3YXksIHNvIGJlIGl04oCUYnV0IG1heWJlIHdyaXRpbmcgZG93biB0aGUgaW50 ZW50IHdpbGwgaGVscA0KPiBpbmZvcm0gdGhhdCBkZWNpc2lvbi4NCg0KSW5kZWVkLCBJJ3ZlIHJl 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aG9zZSBleHBlY3RlZCB0byBiZSBJRVRGIHN0cmVhbSBSRkNzPw0KPiA+Pj4+PiBbRGF2aWQ+XSBZ ZXMsIGluZGVwZW5kZW50IHN1Ym1pc3Npb25zIChJU0Ugc3RyZWFtKSBSRkNzIGFyZQ0KPiA+Pj4+ IEluZm9ybWF0aW9uYWwsIGFuZCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgcHVibGlzaGVkIGFzIEV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbC4N Cj4gPj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4+IEluZGVwZW5kZW50IFN0cmVhbSBSRkNzIGNhbiBiZSBJbmZvcm1hdGlv bmFsIG9yIEV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbC4NCj4gPj4+Pg0KPiA+Pj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Oct 19 09:45:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3284713301E for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:45:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VGwCCXPgTe-R for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.openss7.com (gw.openss7.com [142.59.210.7]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75681132CE7 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wilbur.pigworks.openss7.net (ns5.evil.openss7.net [192.168.9.5]) by gw.openss7.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id v9JGjg0D008948; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:45:42 -0600 Received: from wilbur.pigworks.openss7.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wilbur.pigworks.openss7.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5+lenny1) with ESMTP id v9J6U0PF011716; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:30:00 -0600 Received: (from brian@localhost) by wilbur.pigworks.openss7.net (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id v9J6U07L011715; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:30:00 -0600 Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 00:30:00 -0600 From: "Brian F. G. Bidulock" To: Samuel DeLaughter Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171019063000.GA11412@openss7.org> Reply-To: bidulock@openss7.com Mail-Followup-To: Samuel DeLaughter , "tsvwg@ietf.org" References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: Organization: http://www.openss7.org/ Dsn-Notification-To: X-Spam-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] SCTP INIT Parameters X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:45:46 -0000 Samuel, Please see comments below. Samuel DeLaughter wrote: (Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:55:38) > Hi All, >=20 > I=E2=80=99m a doctoral student researching Denial of Service vulnerabilit= ies > in SCTP, and am hoping someone here might be able to answer some > questions about the optional parameters in INIT chunks. Specifically, > I=E2=80=99m curious why the IPv4 Address and IPv6 Address parameters woul= d be > included in the INIT rather than the COOKIE ECHO. My understanding is > that the receiver of an INIT should maintain no state about the sender > after sending the INIT ACK =E2=80=94 does the receiver actually do anythi= ng > with the addresses provided in optional parameters before the COOKIE > ECHO is received, or is there some reason that the COOKIE ECHO chunk > needs to be kept short? Was there ever a discussion about the best > place to put these parameters during the early days of SCTP? Any > insight you can offer would be greatly appreciated. The SCTP receiving the INIT must determine whether it is possible to form an association with the peer. If it cannot, it will be possibly returning an ABORT, not an INIT-ACK. Also, it must determine whether it has an existing association. To do either of these, it must know all of the transport endpoints with which the association must form before it generates a cookie. Therefore the transport addresses must be sent with the INIT. Brian --=20 Brian F. G. Bidulock bidulock@openss7.com http://www.openss7.com/ From nobody Thu Oct 19 15:38:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2A4132355; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c5wT95K2Gcmh; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAB6E13308D; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id i5so8082145pfe.6; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2cKaTTr7XZ82Znp26cJPO34laTTBTd4Cd7jdceQM8PY=; b=YRbBClpE0L4ybJFqyYNnoA3tuoKf5pfE553Ap8arP55YxwZFLUnMTTpD4Kpfj7jKQ+ W3wgmqYZ75QgvCm2LMbhXCpRUkv9mHLcCmaEsBVTU7cLMlL+hM9+D+HwL622F4KJqy4i t5ik9v3wXLpiUPT0GLaVMSRDBB9qgj0+6YMXxWe0V18OoXHZlUL5ngpWb7rEHy7H4RdD IFLV1Qjthdi7AJwnAojkPXDOAD3xZ3xG5A0f2jYAA3xcyfR/gxq4qoiNFsoHQJvG1uIx gWTvIuXKq7xBuh/J3eFgF8OXle4Z6lXOmFb4iWy/zqqsiUgi84LdrA5IVjMSL10Nu3yR 9+Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2cKaTTr7XZ82Znp26cJPO34laTTBTd4Cd7jdceQM8PY=; b=LnzpAiMzlv/G8slBG/UgM9qbrxgcPfhF2a/SQ0AwXEzXLKJpHNtG2lXePDgS3+hvg4 qqh0l40uk7TFcdVc5Y5Ta+pUNJjPycCNnv1o+eRhEyuZ8bgBe6DPpGcWU2OGiC0KaCGG J92YqRVk5M5K3VKQZXXJ6P7veLUEbHQKKjIAobB5+0/rz2Oa0vEAvWSHfkpAKIaJ4L2W 58wfNrmOLm8eLMBtjcINWlQgQc3+Ds1PLyLkevu2rBo5FjbVD42/FkDgPnnq2GSMd2g2 GO0g2+wmdhQeTi9vsow7KjPOlJ0xX21me8gdVlvsbVcM9fF149mZ6sWwKotmkp6mqA0b uIgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUjC9f3qpTEVjupCl8SHgb3IKrZvojdtA5t9JNeyKiSd5nu/RnB +yeTLLrdMS2VlmzirD5FQLzGBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RFtYJsLP6ZdpCbJC57QvaZ2Z3g9dbU1L2dqCxTXFVjcYMIgstZeKAWnXLVI542sEqgMKHErQ== X-Received: by 10.84.129.4 with SMTP id 4mr2564159plb.320.1508452734971; Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6d3c:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p14sm25109982pgr.51.2017.10.19.15.38.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:38:53 -0700 (PDT) To: tsvwg@ietf.org References: <150774513036.24791.2138264254901122467@ietfa.amsl.com> <1D30AF33624CDD4A99E8C395069A2A162CD734B2@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <4E40E3EF-B0E5-490E-BFF2-0511D97E9E80@employees.org> <17525287-DDA8-4930-B90B-F9228DF69A90@employees.org> <20171017181646.GD31973@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20171019211637.GB878@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <296dd642b31741cc8ec4aa4b52913037@XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <4845d544-7a54-4bba-9f6b-53f67c6e201b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:38:58 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos-00.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 22:38:57 -0000 Switching to tsvwg. 6man is Bcc'ed. Previous discussions followed on from https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/wb339ewBLP7Ijj2eCotCt-W_g8Y On 20/10/2017 11:00, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Manfredi, Albert E < > albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com> wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Toerless Eckert >> >>> Finally wrt. architectural cleanlyness: Per-flow service negotiation >>> IMHO is clearly a transport layer function, there is no concept of >>> 5-tuple flows at IP layer. >> >> I would agree I principle, although IPv6 does have that flow label that >> makes the 5-tuple less essential to identify an individual "flow," and it >> sits at layer 3. > > > Right. > > >> The problem remains, though: security mechanisms, which render the layer 4 >> QoS knobs unworkable. Everything outside the "security enclaves" at either >> end, and these security enclaves might just be inside the two end hosts >> themselves, will have to be delivered best effort. >> >> Bert, I don't follow. One of the big wins using the 3-tuple is that it can > still indicate a flow even if all the transport transport headers and > payload are encrypted. So this should allow specifying QoS without > revealing anything about the content except that the sender wants to group > certain packets together as a flow and apply QoS on them. Exactly. That's also why the flow label and traffic class are not covered by IPSec authentication, in case some mechanism changes them en route. Brian From nobody Fri Oct 20 14:45:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBCF129A89; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:45:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150853593958.15506.14902169829184940262@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:45:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:45:40 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Experimentation Author : David Black Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2017-10-20 Abstract: This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating network congestion to endpoints. It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168 that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of loss. This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas. An Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take advantage of any of these enabling updates. In addition, this memo makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679 and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622. This memo also records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic; this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1) codepoint. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Oct 20 17:32:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A20921344D6; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150854547265.20809.8349152488576086551.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 17:24:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] tsvwg - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 100 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 00:24:33 -0000 Dear Gorry Fairhurst, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. tsvwg Session 1 (1:00:00) Monday, Afternoon Session III 1740-1840 Room Name: Canning size: 250 --------------------------------------------- tsvwg Session 2 (2:00:00) Friday, Morning Session I 0930-1130 Room Name: Collyer size: 250 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Transport Area Working Group Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Gorry Fairhurst Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: intarea tsvarea iccrg aqm rmcat tcpm mptcp taps ippm quic tcpinc rtgwg opsarea Second Priority: dtn rtcweb v6ops tram dispatch Third Priority: artarea ccamp People who must be present: David L. Black Gorry Fairhurst Spencer Dawkins Wesley Eddy Mirja Kuehlewind Resources Requested: Special Requests: [If rtcweb has 2 sessions, 1 should not conflict] [Must not conflict with Transport Area BoFs] --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Oct 21 10:38:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83211270AE for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 10:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dell.com header.b=DlJ+sDQ5; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=emc.com header.b=ubkltPJA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N45sAz0Ry73L for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com (esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com [68.232.149.218]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CAE21241F3 for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dell.com; i=@dell.com; q=dns/txt; s=smtpout; t=1508607490; x=1540143490; h=from:cc:to:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=eeNR3g6NeVHfkBxIV69QfaA+16hihVwX/LucVA5TYoI=; b=DlJ+sDQ5q7PL/Ccon59505NZUoqdhJHlt0LjX3Xm8sGZxbBErM83r1XU dilFVVsju1jZ6MDDd6ytW7GBP5cj0f/OBHZt4wdOTgp2brYnnRA3CPsJu BsDfqPEW8xtP59SOeSV0fXFXamgnOO64Pi2cA/ynCOG4rTgS0K85KhQb9 s=; Received: from esa6.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com ([68.232.154.99]) by esa8.dell-outbound.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Oct 2017 12:38:09 -0500 From: "Black, David" Received: from mailuogwhop.emc.com ([168.159.213.141]) by esa6.dell-outbound2.iphmx.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Oct 2017 23:38:09 +0600 Received: from maildlpprd04.lss.emc.com (maildlpprd04.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.36]) by mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9LHc7g9018827 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:38:08 -0400 X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com v9LHc7g9018827 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emc.com; s=jan2013; t=1508607488; bh=hgvXsHEhWa7/9kpj02QQ+7m6q38=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; b=ubkltPJAY3muTKYl3uFuqm7XV7sZPiQkQCcFXe4vYtfmE6sP1Lp6c2taEuD4YGTMD oPJchIR3uUVSgmrfoDYgLrhF4BtxREU2+HSvvPdWFLnrbxGtyvkQ71rPq74yGLckwZ vPjR3uj17pKPhdvebM8lmVJjQnhA4BfKcmtzvH1s= X-DKIM: OpenDKIM Filter v2.4.3 mailuogwprd03.lss.emc.com v9LHc7g9018827 Received: from mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com [10.253.24.20]) by maildlpprd04.lss.emc.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:35:46 -0400 Received: from MXHUB315.corp.emc.com (MXHUB315.corp.emc.com [10.146.3.93]) by mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.0) with ESMTP id v9LHbqMp024692 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:37:53 -0400 Received: from MX307CL04.corp.emc.com ([fe80::849f:5da2:11b:4385]) by MXHUB315.corp.emc.com ([10.146.3.93]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Sat, 21 Oct 2017 13:37:52 -0400 To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHTSezL6cN/tpWurk2L0FUB9V0x/qLuj60g Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 17:37:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150853593958.15506.14902169829184940262@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150853593958.15506.14902169829184940262@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.97.27.122] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sentrion-Hostname: mailusrhubprd02.lss.emc.com X-RSA-Classifications: public, GIS Solicitation Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2017 17:38:12 -0000 This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation. See the change history for a summary of what's been done, including the add= ition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the requiremen= t for effective congestion control to section 2.1 Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the > IETF. >=20 > Title : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion No= tification (ECN) > Experimentation > Author : David Black > Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2017-10-20 >=20 > Abstract: > This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion > Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating > network congestion to endpoints. It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168 > that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of > loss. This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation > and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas. An > Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take > advantage of any of these enabling updates. In addition, this memo > makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679 > and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622. This memo also > records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and > provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic; > this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1) > codepoint. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation-07 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-= 07 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Tue Oct 24 05:53:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451C91384B5; 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24 Oct 2017 12:46:24 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9OCkOnl011427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:46:25 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:46:24 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 07:46:24 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: "detnet@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTTMS6TWYrBmtvxEKb6urha2/RO6Ly8A7g Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:46:03 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:45:45 +0000 Message-ID: <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.228.216.10] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJ4D2lpx1j0p; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com [67.231.144.242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D92139203; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045961.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9P4Q4bh008141; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:51 -0700 Received: from dlb-xchpw03.dolby.net (dcd-outbound.dolby.com [67.216.187.124]) by mx0a-000fd501.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dr1s2hwdd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:51 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net (10.233.7.3) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:49 -0700 Received: from DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) by DLB-XCHPW03.dolby.net ([10.103.9.186]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 24 Oct 2017 21:27:49 -0700 From: "Grossman, Ethan A." To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" CC: "detnet@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHTTMS6TWYrBmtvxEKb6urha2/RO6Ly8A7ggAEJQRQ= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 04:27:49 +0000 Message-ID: <1508905667030.49538@dolby.com> References: <150884859292.25166.14620043019596199994.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.233.7.60] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-25_02:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 04:27:55 -0000 Thanks Pascal for writing this draft, I found it very helpful to understand= this material, and I found your explanations to be lucid and possible to f= ollow on a single reading. Nice work. =0A= Ethan.=0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: detnet on behalf of Pascal Thubert (pthuber= t) =0A= Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 5:46 AM=0A= To: detnet@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [Detnet] FW: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detn= et-transport-00.txt=0A= =0A= Dear all:=0A= =0A= At the last DetNet meeting in Prague, Janos introduced the DetNet SLA, and = we discussed the need to adapt the application injection of data into packe= ts that match this SLA.=0A= To my best understanding of what happened then, the chairs then insisted th= at this was beyond the current scope and we discussed in-room and then outs= ide the room that there is a need for a component that relates to IETF tran= sport in order to achieve the functions required by the architecture at the= DetNet Service Layer.=0A= =0A= I put together the thoughts I gathered from those discussions in the form o= f an early draft and posted to TSVWG, which appeared to me as the natural p= lace to discuss the topic.=0A= Please find the references below, comments welcome!=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Pascal=0A= -----Original Message-----=0A= From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=0A= Sent: mardi 24 octobre 2017 14:37=0A= To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) =0A= Subject: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-= 00.txt=0A= =0A= =0A= A new version of I-D, draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt=0A= has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF re= pository.=0A= =0A= Name: draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport=0A= Revision: 00=0A= Title: A Transport Layer for Deterministic Networks=0A= Document date: 2017-10-24=0A= Group: Individual Submission=0A= Pages: 21=0A= URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thubert-tsvwg-de= tnet-transport-00.txt=0A= Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet= -transport/=0A= Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-tran= sport-00=0A= Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-d= etnet-transport-00=0A= =0A= =0A= Abstract:=0A= This document specifies the behavior of a Transport Layer operating=0A= over a Deterministic Network and implementing a DetNet Service Layer=0A= and a Northbound side of the DetNet User-to-Network Interface.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A= =0A= The IETF Secretariat=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= detnet mailing list=0A= detnet@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/detnet=0A= From nobody Wed Oct 25 04:28:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2153413ACA2 for ; 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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:28:04 +0000 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00 Thread-Index: AdNNc50ZIatg5pnATd+qCWel38IAtA== Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:28:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.92] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB4PR07MB347; 6:hNCwDoCQ+Lkfp9M0NO1wrd6w2k9q6M7O0u2tvNwWmUfbYqcnOu8VrI++tFsDTqmcR1Lz9PMfbypIqlIji53rHZAv5Qd+12kP9xNZ7ZxcVKWNi0oTXIdr3bi0Gm0kStOlJNY3743X6o4ZHTyTTxBgebsq0JfJloSXMgw/0kahUvjJ10E2lTmoRf7MwN/0OZllELtE7j1DBwZsMNTp90cGRxtLoCdA/J2b6EA9x/vQaGCjpLhfSslfcmLnR8Hk4eZEP+pQVPQAEqRMAQ5V97PJyeDpNEfkbXZdauF3pUJ1WCrobDNveCqk0wZrUpGXwsABoLSM+ECDgluU5JbRYAUtjw==; 5:GKsZo1COnlD8ciaTP96u3HCjivTFAOV1yQNmaHVG7eqi6xsYLeBrPvLKBHiDKAo3w02QBrZV5Xu1T2P1N8EEh7hhCaQmZaZx2AdO6bjA2ZNNCfECa/80Wlfn6qcywHKHMKwREVElxkZtE4idWp+hIw==; 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SRVR:DB4PR07MB347; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095); SRVR:DB4PR07MB347; x-forefront-prvs: 0471B73328 received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 89f67e9d-e1d3-4040-8d62-08d51b9b7572 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Oct 2017 11:28:04.5396 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR07MB347 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrNIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7rm5s6YdIg1O7OSyOvbnL5sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujJ0H7rEWtKlXbDtymqWB8bd8FyMnh4SAicSSfY2MXYxcHEIC RxgllvR8YwJJCAmcYJS4d8kPxGYR6GWW6H9aCFE0jUni7q3/zBDOQ0aJpxN/MYNUsQnYSKw8 9J0RxBYRUJW43LEWbJIwUHxX0ySouKPEldWH2CFsPYn2dT/YITaoSpx9dRKsnlcgSuLemrts IDajgKzE/e/3WEBsZgFxiVtP5jNBnC0gsWTPeWYIW1Ti5eN/rBD1yRKfbvayQsQVJP5cesQG YctKXJrfDfamhEAru8SUGx0sEAljia4Je1ghEm1sEju3NEJN9ZX4++0cG0RiBqPE+y3dUGM1 Jbrv7YDq9pbonN8MFOcAsjMl/rSmQdRfYpVYdPgJ1CAZidUnzkMDNVVi+dpWRkiwSEncvdLJ OIFRexaS7yBsHYkFuz+xQdjaEssWvmaeBQ4ZQYmTM5+wLGBkWcUoWpxaXJybbmSkl1qUmVxc nJ+nl5dasokRmCQObvlttYPx4HPHQ4wCHIxKPLzuiR8ihVgTy4orcw8xSnAwK4nwcgBTjBBv SmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXFeh30XIoQE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MfuzVNw+zSIhb Cc5SefL8Es+mphbheqYIjR0xc+58fLOLoeRSadT2gBuH3nadzW4TnyDz58/bD803J/xRjkmX 9zb605OzfoGd6Lf1u64fim25K+J3brWt9DHdRD0jsfC5InNzYssbmjXcVi93Kqr2YRTRl3a/ zrmk3339tRXtnFEbstUlf6YrsRRnJBpqMRcVJwIA92PlJg4DAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2017 11:28:33 -0000 Hi And thanks for a nice overview, well worth the time spent. One thing that occurs to me is that we have (atleast?) two different techno= logies for low latency transport=20 1) L4S technology, for instance TCP HULL can reach very low (or zero) queue= delays, se e.g https://people.csail.mit.edu/alizadeh/papers/hull-nsdi12.pd= f . It is however not perfectly safe against jitter casued by e.g large amo= unts of incast traffic.=20 2) DetTrans/DetNet , can reach insanely (zero) queue delays and determinist= ic e2e delay if the packets are forwarded as they arrive at each node along= the path. These two technologies, can to some extent cover similar requirements. The = difference is that DetNet can cover very extreme requirements, whereas L4S = is likely more scalable. =20 These are just my observations, not necessarily something that should go in= to the draft. This work pinpoints a problem with the interaction with the application lay= er and that problem applies to both L4S and DetNet. While it is possible to= achieve a deterministic (or close to deterministic) delay on the packet le= vel, there will in both cases be necessary with a queue on the application = layer to absorb changes in application layer bitrate. Small message driven = traffic such as sensor data is perhaps not a big issue, especially if messa= ges can be discarded on the sender side without problems. What is worse is = for instance high bitrate real time compressed video where the bitrate can = change a lot and is not guaranteed to match a given target rate.=20 If one is to be able to fully use the potential of low latency transport it= becomes necessary to integrate the application layer (or video coders) tig= htly with the transport.=20 We already saw this challenge with commercial video coders in the developme= nt of the SCReAM congestion control in the RMCAT WG. This application layer interaction problem is not mainly an IETF matter, bu= t it is likely a headache for application developers later on. /Ingemar > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:46:03 +0000 > From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" > To: "detnet@ietf.org" , "tsvwg@ietf.org" > > Subject: [tsvwg] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt > Message-ID: <23ba09a493ec44ef8f37099afa00a78b@XCH-RCD- > 001.cisco.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >=20 > Dear all: >=20 > At the last DetNet meeting in Prague, Janos introduced the DetNet SLA, an= d > we discussed the need to adapt the application injection of data into pac= kets > that match this SLA. > To my best understanding of what happened then, the chairs then insisted > that this was beyond the current scope and we discussed in-room and then > outside the room that there is a need for a component that relates to IET= F > transport in order to achieve the functions required by the architecture = at > the DetNet Service Layer. >=20 > I put together the thoughts I gathered from those discussions in the form= of > an early draft and posted to TSVWG, which appeared to me as the natural > place to discuss the topic. > Please find the references below, comments welcome! >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Pascal > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: mardi 24 octobre 2017 14:37 > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transpor= t- > 00.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Pascal Thubert and posted to the IETF > repository. >=20 > Name: draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport > Revision: 00 > Title: A Transport Layer for Deterministic Networks > Document date: 2017-10-24 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 21 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thubert-tsvwg- > detnet-transport-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detn= et- > transport/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet- > transport-00 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-thubert-tsvwg= - > detnet-transport-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > This document specifies the behavior of a Transport Layer operating > over a Deterministic Network and implementing a DetNet Service Layer > and a Northbound side of the DetNet User-to-Network Interface. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > End of tsvwg Digest, Vol 162, Issue 9 > ************************************* From nobody Fri Oct 27 06:34:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1993013A292; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 06:34:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150911124305.22123.8461168767948543885@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 06:34:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme-01.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 13:34:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : Sliding Window Random Linear Code (RLC) Forward Erasure Correction (FEC) Schemes for FECFRAME Authors : Vincent Roca Belkacem Teibi Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme-01.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2017-10-27 Abstract: This document describes two fully-specified FEC Schemes for Sliding Window Random Linear Codes (RLC), one for RLC over GF(2) (binary case), a second one for RLC over GF(2^^8), both of them with the possibility of controlling the code density. They are meant to protect arbitrary media streams along the lines defined by FECFRAME extended to sliding window FEC codes. These sliding window FEC codes rely on an encoding window that slides over the source symbols, generating new repair symbols whenever needed. Compared to block FEC codes, these sliding window FEC codes offer key advantages with real- time flows in terms of reduced FEC-related latency while often providing improved erasure recovery capabilities. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 06:53:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1826013F9D8 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:53:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B4XwrkXV87rw for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.173]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A12813F9E1 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 06:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Gs-MacBook-Pro.local (at-zeroshell-1.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.217.68]) by pegasus.erg.abdn.ac.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9F5751B00221 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:46:41 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <59F72D41.7000403@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:46:41 +0000 From: Gorry Fairhurst Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk Organization: University of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120428 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tsvwg@ietf.org References: <150937054073.3417.534562733452030254.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150937054073.3417.534562733452030254.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <150937054073.3417.534562733452030254.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:53:39 -0000 Dear tsvwg, We have just submitted a major revision to our datagram PLPMTUD draft. We think this version provides a lot more detail about the mechanisms we propose and the requirements to implement this in a datagram transport. With that in mind, we would really like to receive comments on this list concerning the direction of the draft, the open issues, or the draft details. In particular, this draft provides quite a clear statememt about what we think this draft should say, and we would like to request agenda time at the next IETF to present this for consideration as a TSVWG work item. Best wishes, Gorry, Michael, Irene and Tom. ---- A new version of I-D, draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Godred Fairhurst and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud Revision: 01 Title: Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery for Datagram Transports Document date: 2017-10-30 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 23 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud-01 Abstract: This document describes a robust method for Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) for datagram packetization layers. It allows these layers to probe an Internet path with progressively larger packets to determine a maximum packet size This method is described as an extension to RFC 1191 and RFC 8201, which specify ICMP-based Path MTU Discovery for IP versions 4 and 6. The document provides functionally for datagram transports that is equivalent to the packetization layer PMTUD specification for TCP, specified in RFC4821. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Mon Oct 30 12:32:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67ADE13F3EF; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:32:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150939195235.7814.11812278928769522343@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 12:32:32 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-03.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:32:32 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : RFC 4960 Errata and Issues Authors : Randall R. Stewart Michael Tuexen Maksim Proshin Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-03.txt Pages : 82 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: This document is a compilation of issues found since the publication of RFC4960 in September 2007 based on experience with implementing, testing, and using SCTP along with the suggested fixes. This document provides deltas to RFC4960 and is organized in a time based way. The issues are listed in the order they were brought up. Because some text is changed several times the last delta in the text is the one which should be applied. In addition to the delta a description of the problem and the details of the solution are also provided. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 14:09:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFD413FB83; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:09:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150939778293.7732.11773068076183010919@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:09:42 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:09:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : Low Latency, Low Loss, Scalable Throughput (L4S) Internet Service: Architecture Authors : Bob Briscoe Koen De Schepper Marcelo Bagnulo Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: This document describes the L4S architecture for the provision of a new Internet service that could eventually replace best efforts for all traffic: Low Latency, Low Loss, Scalable throughput (L4S). It is becoming common for _all_ (or most) applications being run by a user at any one time to require low latency. However, the only solution the IETF can offer for ultra-low queuing delay is Diffserv, which only favours a minority of packets at the expense of others. In extensive testing the new L4S service keeps average queuing delay under a millisecond for _all_ applications even under very heavy load, without sacrificing utilization; and it keeps congestion loss to zero. It is becoming widely recognized that adding more access capacity gives diminishing returns, because latency is becoming the critical problem. Even with a high capacity broadband access, the reduced latency of L4S remarkably and consistently improves performance under load for applications such as interactive video, conversational video, voice, Web, gaming, instant messaging, remote desktop and cloud-based apps (even when all being used at once over the same access link). The insight is that the root cause of queuing delay is in TCP, not in the queue. By fixing the sending TCP (and other transports) queuing latency becomes so much better than today that operators will want to deploy the network part of L4S to enable new products and services. Further, the network part is simple to deploy - incrementally with zero-config. Both parts, sender and network, ensure coexistence with other legacy traffic. At the same time L4S solves the long-recognized problem with the future scalability of TCP throughput. This document describes the L4S architecture, briefly describing the different components and how the work together to provide the aforementioned enhanced Internet service. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 14:10:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB1913FB80; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150939781552.7736.8971386222242730122@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:10:15 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:10:16 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : Identifying Modified Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Semantics for Ultra-Low Queuing Delay Authors : Koen De Schepper Bob Briscoe Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: This specification defines the identifier to be used on IP packets for a new network service called low latency, low loss and scalable throughput (L4S). It is similar to the original (or 'Classic') Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN). 'Classic' ECN marking was required to be equivalent to a drop, both when applied in the network and when responded to by a transport. Unlike 'Classic' ECN marking, for packets carrying the L4S identifier, the network applies marking more immediately and more aggressively than drop, and the transport response to each mark is reduced and smoothed relative to that for drop. The two changes counterbalance each other so that the throughput of an L4S flow will be roughly the same as a 'Classic' flow under the same conditions. However, the much more frequent control signals and the finer responses to them result in ultra-low queuing delay without compromising link utilization, even during high load. Examples of new active queue management (AQM) marking algorithms and examples of new transports (whether TCP-like or real- time) are specified separately. The new L4S identifier is the key piece that enables them to interwork and distinguishes them from 'Classic' traffic. It gives an incremental migration path so that existing 'Classic' TCP traffic will be no worse off, but it can be prevented from degrading the ultra-low delay and loss of the new scalable transports. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 16:56:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E370F13F5E3; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:56:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150940777889.28388.6223899792583465369@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:56:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 23:56:19 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF. Title : DualQ Coupled AQMs for Low Latency, Low Loss and Scalable Throughput (L4S) Authors : Koen De Schepper Bob Briscoe Olga Bondarenko Ing-jyh Tsang Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2017-10-30 Abstract: Data Centre TCP (DCTCP) was designed to provide predictably low queuing latency, near-zero loss, and throughput scalability using explicit congestion notification (ECN) and an extremely simple marking behaviour on switches. However, DCTCP does not co-exist with existing TCP traffic---DCTCP is so aggressive that existing TCP algorithms approach starvation. So, until now, DCTCP could only be deployed where a clean-slate environment could be arranged, such as in private data centres. This specification defines `DualQ Coupled Active Queue Management (AQM)' to allow scalable congestion controls like DCTCP to safely co-exist with classic Internet traffic. The Coupled AQM ensures that a flow runs at about the same rate whether it uses DCTCP or TCP Reno/Cubic, but without inspecting transport layer flow identifiers. When tested in a residential broadband setting, DCTCP achieved sub-millisecond average queuing delay and zero congestion loss under a wide range of mixes of DCTCP and `Classic' broadband Internet traffic, without compromising the performance of the Classic traffic. The solution also reduces network complexity and eliminates network configuration. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Oct 30 17:02:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6D3CEEB for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bobbriscoe.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nmkD6XfQoTXA for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.dnsblock1.com (server.dnsblock1.com [85.13.236.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D9C5CEE7 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 17:01:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bobbriscoe.net; s=default; h=Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:From:References:Cc:To:Subject:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ExgGiz00xCuhaBFsD3FWCkL09A2sskAmB4PjbQDLMkk=; b=q8nEz1WEsNTPQSk0Pfn6EmSZU dBvIQlFtdvtsnrRmmbTD/nj73s+VVp4sphbbNHxIgQTo/dUk2OHQnlwKkIWGkcGYfz9/tfgCkrkdy zvmPKVFImYmyhisAmN7fSZw7bEn+Cnb7gWH5bN2WJl7nf4baSmp2enD1oYqc2IvXvGT0Z6NOcKz3L e5whcIxrpTfs+qjEXbCAAOkyXpgtu0qcQQnXLzIwBt5pw2Pa0JuZwZcT1+oQt49xhWhAgwWkuPs5A fXKRHoDeQDr0dYvAspsp0ERhA2t0j7oJqKMuKPqwT15sYzbEZLixZyohnbE7PhREHuZu9U3YO7DfO 3zXAdrPiw==; Received: from 152.63.112.87.dyn.plus.net ([87.112.63.152]:34336 helo=[192.168.0.2]) by server.dnsblock1.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1e9Jza-0008Ef-Am; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:01:18 +0000 To: "Holland, Jake" Cc: "Black, David" , tsvwg IETF list References: From: Bob Briscoe Message-ID: Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:01:16 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DD35A7585139F0D9439630FA" Content-Language: en-GB X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server.dnsblock1.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - bobbriscoe.net X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server.dnsblock1.com: authenticated_id: in@bobbriscoe.net X-Authenticated-Sender: server.dnsblock1.com: in@bobbriscoe.net Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] UDP/IP outer as an IP-shim-IP tunnel and AMT as an example X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 00:01:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------DD35A7585139F0D9439630FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jake, Sry, I just found your email from 02 Aug while checking for any correspondence I might have missed on draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim Responses inline... On 02/08/17 20:35, Holland, Jake wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Thanks for looking into my AMT question and following up. > > A few comments and questions: > > 1. I agree that your proposed addition covers a gap that was implied > but not stated by section 4.3 of RFC 6040. > > 2. I’m not understanding something: what is it about a protocol that > makes it a generic IP-inside-UDP encapsulation that doesn’t need to be > explicitly mentioned by the shim-update, vs. encapsulations that do > need an explicit update? > > Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but an AMT Data packet > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7450#section-5.1.6) > on the wire > looks like [L2]-IP-UDP-AMT-IP-..., and I think it’s correct that the > new ECN requirements in section 4 would apply in a way that I don’t > see how it’s different from GRE or Teredo. (Except maybe that it’s > unlikely ever to carry TCP in the inner IP; is that the distinguishing > factor?) > > draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-04 proposes to update Teredo and > GRE but not AMT, even though it seems from section 5.1 that both GRE > and Teredo also have the same kind of “probably existing > implementations are already compatible-mode in practice” status under > RFC 6040. But I’m not clear on why some of the protocols get an > explicit mention and others don’t. > [BB]: Sry, I didn't realize there was an AMT header in the IP-UDP-AMT-IP stack. I thought AMT relied only on the UDP header between IP headers. I should have read the RFC properly, shouldn't I? So, in answer to your question, AMT does need an explicit update. The only encapsulations that don't need an explicit update are those that use a simple IP:UDP:IP encap , because they are all covered by the fact that RFC8085 already refers to RFC6040. So, I have created a new section for AMT in my local copy of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim, which I intended to post before the deadline last night but I ran out of time. So I'll send to you before the end of the week. I believe we're going to have to create an ECN capability negotiation between the gateway and the relay. Because the relay should only use the normal tunnelling mode of RFC6040 if it has checked that the gateway has ECN decap logic. We'll probably need to use one of the reserved bits in the relay discovery and relay advertisement messages. This capability negotiation should broadly follow the pattern of the L2TP capability negotiation that's already in the shim draft, except it's simpler, cos data forwarding is all one-way. Once done, I'd appreciate if you could check that what I've written is correct. Thanks for questioning this - I've added you to the ACKs in my local copy. > 3. Related: What makes it impractical to update all the IP-inside-UDP > RFCs? > > It seems to me like it would be useful, because whether I’m an > implementer or a network operator, if I implement or deploy a protocol > such as AMT, today I get no hint from > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7450 or from the RFC index that I have > any responsibilities regarding ECN. > > But if the page for RFC 7450 had the “Updated by” link at the top > pointing to the new update-shim document, both these cases seem much > more likely to have their ECN behavior considered during a normal > round of due diligence. > [BB]: Indeed, ensuring the relevant RFCs have an "Updated by" tag is what I'm trying to do with this exercise. Now that I understand AMT's encap, I have added 7450 to the "Updates:" header of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim so, once it is published as RFCXXXX, the RFC index, IETF tools and datatracker will tag 7450 with "Updated by RFCXXXX". > It also seems justifiable to update all such protocols, because > section 4 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-04 does impose new > requirements, even if (as section 4 argues) the requirements are not > expected to change any existing implementation’s actual compliance > status, since it’s probably already doing compatible-mode. > [BB]: My goal is indeed to update "all such protocols", but I'm limiting the scope to those on the standards track or in widespread use. Otherwise I would have to cover loads of protocols that are long dead. Nonetheless, draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim says it applies to any tunnel protocol within its written scope, so it still covers any I have missed and have therefore not listed explicitly. A number of helpful people like you have pointed out ones I've missed, but the rate of discovery has reduced to a trickle. So altho the process could theoretically continue for ever, I think to all intents and purposes the output has halted. > Is there a good list of existing IP-shim-IP tunnel protocols that the > 6040 update-shim document applies to? Is it feasible to include one in > this document, whether or not this document will explicitly update them? > [BB]: If you know of any I've missed (after I post the lastest rev tonight), pls tell me. I bet you're now going to prove me wrong when I say the rate of discovery has reduced to a trickle, aren't you?! > Today that project seems to be left as an exercise for the network > operator, if RFC8085/BCP145 is the suggested answer. > [BB]: And apologies again for missing your email. Bob > > Kind regards, and thanks again. > > Jake > > On 7/20/17, 2:26 AM, "Bob Briscoe" > wrote: > > David (as doc shepherd), > > In the tsvwg mtg onTue, it was suggested that AMT ought to be included > in the list of RFCs that define a new IP-shim-IP tunnelling protocol. > > I said that I had actually looked at this and decided not to include > it. I now remember why. It was cos AMT is just using UDP-IP > encapsulation, not really defining a new encapsulation. > > Nonetheless thanks to the guy who came to the mic (sry I can't > remember the name - I think from Akamai) for making me revisit this. > It identifies a gap: rfc6040update-shim doesn't mention general use of > UDP-IP encapsulation. It only mentions the specific case of GUE > (generic UDP encapsulation). > > The way I propose to handle this is to add a bullet in 5.  IP-in-IP > Tunnels with Tightly Coupled Shim Headers > > for UDP tunnels. Then add the following covering general use of UDP-IP > encapsulation, giving AMT as one example of it: > >       5.1.x UDP Tunnels >       Section 3.1.11 of the UDP usage guidelines in RFC 8085 already >       explains that a tunnel that encapsulates an IP header within a >       UDP/IP datagram, e.g. Automatic Multicast Tunneling (AMT >       [RFC7450]), needs to follow RFC 6040 when propagating the ECN >       field between inner and outer IP headers. >       The requirements in Section 4 update RFC 6040, so they add >       the important, but previously unstated requirement that, if >       the UDP tunnel egress does not, or might not, support ECN >       propagation, a legacy UDP tunnel ingress has to zero the outer >       ECN field, e.g. by configuration. > > Do any RFC's need to be updated? No. > Given the UDP tunnelling section of RFC 8085 (UDP usage guidelines) > already refers to RFC 6040, I don't think we need to update every RFC > that uses UDP Tunnelling to refer to RFC 6040. > > It would be ideal, but perhaps impractical. > > > > Bob > > -- > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/ > -- ________________________________________________________________ Bob Briscoe http://bobbriscoe.net/ --------------DD35A7585139F0D9439630FA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jake,

Sry, I just found your email from 02 Aug while checking for any correspondence I might have missed on draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim

Responses inline...

On 02/08/17 20:35, Holland, Jake wrote:

Hi Bob,

 

Thanks for looking into my AMT question and following up.

 

A few comments and questions:

1. I agree that your proposed addition covers a gap that was implied but not stated by section 4.3 of RFC 6040.

 

2. I’m not understanding something: what is it about a protocol that makes it a generic IP-inside-UDP encapsulation that doesn’t need to be explicitly mentioned by the shim-update, vs. encapsulations that do need an explicit update?

 

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but an AMT Data packet (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7450#section-5.1.6) on the wire looks like [L2]-IP-UDP-AMT-IP-..., and I think it’s correct that the new ECN requirements in section 4 would apply in a way that I don’t see how it’s different from GRE or Teredo. (Except maybe that it’s unlikely ever to carry TCP in the inner IP; is that the distinguishing factor?)

 

draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-04 proposes to update Teredo and GRE but not AMT, even though it seems from section 5.1 that both GRE and Teredo also have the same kind of “probably existing implementations are already compatible-mode in practice” status under RFC 6040. But I’m not clear on why some of the protocols get an explicit mention and others don’t.

[BB]: Sry, I didn't realize there was an AMT header in the IP-UDP-AMT-IP stack. I thought AMT relied only on the UDP header between IP headers. I should have read the RFC properly, shouldn't I?

So, in answer to your question, AMT does need an explicit update. The only encapsulations that don't need an explicit update are those that use a simple IP:UDP:IP encap , because they are all covered by the fact that RFC8085 already refers to RFC6040.

So, I have created a new section for AMT in my local copy of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim, which I intended to post before the deadline last night but I ran out of time. So I'll send to you before the end of the week.

I believe we're going to have to create an ECN capability negotiation between the gateway and the relay. Because the relay should only use the normal tunnelling mode of RFC6040 if it has checked that the gateway has ECN decap logic.

We'll probably need to use one of the reserved bits in the relay discovery and relay advertisement messages. This capability negotiation should broadly follow the pattern of the L2TP capability negotiation that's already in the shim draft, except it's simpler, cos data forwarding is all one-way.

Once done, I'd appreciate if you could check that what I've written is correct.

Thanks for questioning this - I've added you to the ACKs in my local copy.

 

3. Related: What makes it impractical to update all the IP-inside-UDP RFCs?

 

It seems to me like it would be useful, because whether I’m an implementer or a network operator, if I implement or deploy a protocol such as AMT, today I get no hint from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7450 or from the RFC index that I have any responsibilities regarding ECN.

 

But if the page for RFC 7450 had the “Updated by” link at the top pointing to the new update-shim document, both these cases seem much more likely to have their ECN behavior considered during a normal round of due diligence.

[BB]: Indeed, ensuring the relevant RFCs have an "Updated by" tag is what I'm trying to do with this exercise.

Now that I understand AMT's encap, I have added 7450 to the "Updates:" header of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim so, once it is published as RFCXXXX, the RFC index, IETF tools and datatracker will tag 7450 with "Updated by RFCXXXX".

 

It also seems justifiable to update all such protocols, because section 4 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-04 does impose new requirements, even if (as section 4 argues) the requirements are not expected to change any existing implementation’s actual compliance status, since it’s probably already doing compatible-mode.

[BB]: My goal is indeed to update "all such protocols", but I'm limiting the scope to those on the standards track or in widespread use. Otherwise I would have to cover loads of protocols that are long dead.

Nonetheless, draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim says it applies to any tunnel protocol within its written scope, so it still covers any I have missed and have therefore not listed explicitly.

A number of helpful people like you have pointed out ones I've missed, but the rate of discovery has reduced to a trickle. So altho the process could theoretically continue for ever, I think to all intents and purposes the output has halted.

 

Is there a good list of existing IP-shim-IP tunnel protocols that the 6040 update-shim document applies to? Is it feasible to include one in this document, whether or not this document will explicitly update them?

[BB]: If you know of any I've missed (after I post the lastest rev tonight), pls tell me.
I bet you're now going to prove me wrong when I say the rate of discovery has reduced to a trickle, aren't you?!

 

Today that project seems to be left as an exercise for the network operator, if RFC8085/BCP145 is the suggested answer.


[BB]: And apologies again for missing your email.



Bob

 

Kind regards, and thanks again.

 

Jake

 

 

On 7/20/17, 2:26 AM, "Bob Briscoe" <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:

 

David (as doc shepherd),

In the tsvwg mtg onTue, it was suggested that AMT ought to be included in the list of RFCs that define a new IP-shim-IP tunnelling protocol.

I said that I had actually looked at this and decided not to include it. I now remember why. It was cos AMT is just using UDP-IP encapsulation, not really defining a new encapsulation.

Nonetheless thanks to the guy who came to the mic (sry I can't remember the name - I think from Akamai) for making me revisit this. It identifies a gap: rfc6040update-shim doesn't mention general use of UDP-IP encapsulation. It only mentions the specific case of GUE (generic UDP encapsulation).

The way I propose to handle this is to add a bullet in 5.  IP-in-IP Tunnels with Tightly Coupled Shim Headers for UDP tunnels. Then add the following covering general use of UDP-IP encapsulation, giving AMT as one example of it:

      5.1.x UDP Tunnels
 
      Section 3.1.11 of the UDP usage guidelines in RFC 8085 already
      explains that a tunnel that encapsulates an IP header within a
      UDP/IP datagram, e.g. Automatic Multicast Tunneling (AMT 
      [RFC7450]), needs to follow RFC 6040 when propagating the ECN
      field between inner and outer IP headers.
 
      The requirements in Section 4 update RFC 6040, so they add
      the important, but previously unstated requirement that, if
      the UDP tunnel egress does not, or might not, support ECN 
      propagation, a legacy UDP tunnel ingress has to zero the outer 
      ECN field, e.g. by configuration.
 

Do any RFC's need to be updated? No.
Given the UDP tunnelling section of RFC 8085 (UDP usage guidelines) already refers to RFC 6040, I don't think we need to update every RFC that uses UDP Tunnelling to refer to RFC 6040.

It would be ideal, but perhaps impractical.



Bob

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/
--------------DD35A7585139F0D9439630FA-- From nobody Tue Oct 31 04:05:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietf.org Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EF713942F; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:05:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benoit Claise To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation@ietf.org, Gorry Fairhurst , tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org, gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk, tsvwg@ietf.org, shares@ndzh.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.63.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <150944791565.28230.12551450804707942069.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 04:05:15 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [tsvwg] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 11:05:16 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for solving the DISCUSS. From nobody Tue Oct 31 14:11:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76F7313F55F for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3BR-dlD75W6S for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x22b.google.com (mail-yw0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EE4113F6FA for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id z195so295933ywz.6 for ; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=n+o5/g3admVpvJUjwmoIczr/vbt7j3X05AzutFaVmcQ=; b=aXX2vdxTUS5D1D+RJBJGuElQ8qwmUY4kIKcq8Kefq7+kPVASB0kJwhTFHTn6JIwKbk Okrkn+Wvv75Ly1K7K6zfjTAZz9bu3Z1if6QJAhog1txLIvh5bJxVNz3rV/b9ziSc4Pbv SDkrmeBSrNX9x+1b04D5DPbpnLZopZxeqvL6JvFIiLExUy0Ad9cr7pifTzrzTm/lp1y1 5Bw022CSlE8H15hgCFhJzHWA7emqwZbUMHbjrexD2LcPwwHxssk4ZgYNqWqRF1d86spq PuGQziHjKaBoxfvi0ZP4PmuYiBdlI+IjFKwIW+fSj+CmWZv13BovXd+vu7vQh7c2/mtZ lvtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=n+o5/g3admVpvJUjwmoIczr/vbt7j3X05AzutFaVmcQ=; b=W4Iy49Eih60jEMYYi3UqkWfy0G1L7olQaFdHoZtQYmAFKAldskuXxyLYRXzfL1yg8F VS3VSp7bwWdPTgmD0wt04h2qTr5ixT248buXlzDt00pGTxN39/yn9eCyZ9ezlFNVv7pS cUHTJgeDsZULBQbp4Waln5prGn7tsvgvpAC/MqMvv2kRai5/vSmx8ZVhb4gZhnybuDSP H6thCsIqD+psROdDr8Qqqq8phwj36L2x+bCeek+1XmqOKZXBoXoNWIZfgOeEQmSu49bS OTiFnlj0rbtmySNoVYqRqFDnhbonSo10kk7srDCNMXioPsn4TkzmPpzx6S85dAa56Mj0 KMkg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXsThL/FO6vU04g+l80iYOEuixDz4Lxr7Tn2QrjpXrEKaaufR+i +hhzzTdU+vn7p99rgNsNCZM/jYu2dy3dhvA1jC3CPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QPIGYV2tegiUIEDtDGgHX4NImuUe9JPyl0MuEojGY1Nn9FQsEgiBC7fIgouZdT1qA7GgOfM+BTuBTFMTtLmDk= X-Received: by 10.129.91.84 with SMTP id p81mr2150052ywb.109.1509484287571; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.162.204 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <150853593958.15506.14902169829184940262@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 16:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Black, David" Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114c7b40c13bb6055cde3223" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 21:11:31 -0000 --001a114c7b40c13bb6055cde3223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, David, On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David wrote: > This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation. > > See the change history for a summary of what's been done, including the > addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the > requirement for effective congestion control to section 2.1 > > Thanks, --David > Hi, David, I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, but remember that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be required, just based on the amount of new text that was added in -07. Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to your document shepherd)? I did see one typo in the new text, "transition from current ECN functionality falls primary upon" should probably be "transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon" but that's easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need to submit an updated draft. Just let me know! And thanks for horsing that through. Spencer > > -----Original Message----- > > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > > internet-drafts@ietf.org > > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org > > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the > > IETF. > > > > Title : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion > Notification (ECN) > > Experimentation > > Author : David Black > > Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt > > Pages : 21 > > Date : 2017-10-20 > > > > Abstract: > > This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion > > Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating > > network congestion to endpoints. It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168 > > that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of > > loss. This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation > > and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas. An > > Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take > > advantage of any of these enabling updates. In addition, this memo > > makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679 > > and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622. This memo also > > records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and > > provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic; > > this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1) > > codepoint. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- > > experimentation-07 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn- > experimentation-07 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > I-D-Announce mailing list > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > --001a114c7b40c13bb6055cde3223 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, David,

On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David <David.Bla= ck@dell.com> wrote:
This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.

See the change history for a summary of what's been done, including the= addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the requir= ement for effective congestion control to section 2.1

Thanks, --David

Hi, David,

I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, b= ut remember that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be required= , just based on the amount of new text that was added in -07.=C2=A0

Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to yo= ur document shepherd)?

I did see one typo in the n= ew text,=C2=A0

"transition from current ECN f= unctionality falls primary upon" should probably be

"transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon= "

but that's easily fixed in an RFC Edito= r Note, if you don't need to submit an updated draft.

Just let me know!

And thanks for horsing t= hat through.

Spencer
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=
> Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<= br> >
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories.
> This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of th= e
> IETF.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0: Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)=
> Experimentation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : David Black
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 21
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2017-10-20
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Cong= estion
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for = indicating
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network congestion to endpoints.=C2=A0 It relaxes restric= tions in RFC 3168
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just = removal of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 loss.=C2=A0 This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of= experimentation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these a= reas.=C2=A0 An
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required = to take
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 advantage of any of these enabling updates.=C2=A0 In addi= tion, this memo
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP i= n RFC 6679
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.=C2=A0 Th= is memo also
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC= 3540, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 a= s Historic;
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this reclassification enables new experimental use of the= ECT(1)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 codepoint.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/= draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
> experimentation-07
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org= /rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-= d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<= br>

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