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From: Vladimir Olteanu <vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro>
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Subject: [tsvwg] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt
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Hi,

We've updated out SOCKS 6 draft. Most notably, version -01 adds a 
mechanism that mitigates replay attacks when running over TLS1.3. 
(Cheers to Christian Huitema for bringing up the issue at IETF99!)

Best,
Vlad


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt
Date: 	Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:14:07 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	Vladimir Olteanu <vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro>, Dragos Niculescu 
<dragos.niculescu@cs.pub.ro>



A new version of I-D, draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Vladimir Olteanu and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6
Revision:	01
Title:		SOCKS Protocol Version 6
Document date:	2017-10-30
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		18
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01

Abstract:
    The SOCKS protocol is used primarily to proxy TCP connections to
    arbitrary destinations via the use of a proxy server.  Under the
    latest version of the protocol (version 5), it takes 2 RTTs (or 3, if
    authentication is used) before data can flow between the client and
    the server.

    This memo proposes SOCKS version 6, which reduces the number of RTTs
    used, takes full advantage of TCP Fast Open, and adds support for
    0-RTT authentication.

                                                                                   


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--------------AEB0048D574104F6F80C5D31
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Hi,<br>
      <br>
      We've updated out SOCKS 6 draft. Most notably, version -01 adds a
      mechanism that mitigates replay attacks when running over TLS1.3.
      (Cheers to Christian Huitema for bringing up the issue at IETF99!)<br>
      <br>
      Best,<br>
      Vlad<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellspacing="0"
        cellpadding="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>New Version Notification for
              draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
            <td>Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:14:07 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
            <td>Vladimir Olteanu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro">&lt;vladimir.olteanu@cs.pub.ro&gt;</a>,
              Dragos Niculescu <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dragos.niculescu@cs.pub.ro">&lt;dragos.niculescu@cs.pub.ro&gt;</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>A new version of I-D, draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Vladimir Olteanu and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6
Revision:	01
Title:		SOCKS Protocol Version 6
Document date:	2017-10-30
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		18
URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01</a>
Diff:           <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-olteanu-intarea-socks-6-01</a>

Abstract:
   The SOCKS protocol is used primarily to proxy TCP connections to
   arbitrary destinations via the use of a proxy server.  Under the
   latest version of the protocol (version 5), it takes 2 RTTs (or 3, if
   authentication is used) before data can flow between the client and
   the server.

   This memo proposes SOCKS version 6, which reduces the number of RTTs
   used, takes full advantage of TCP Fast Open, and adds support for
   0-RTT authentication.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

</pre>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

--------------AEB0048D574104F6F80C5D31--


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 09:02:23 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-crXDnP4Oo-icAvCbUub8-Pw2FAwZ29E7my5jRtqqjiHQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
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Dear Both,

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:

> Hi Spencer,
>
>
>
> Well, I=E2=80=99m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss wi=
th a
> simple note of thanks and no further text change requests.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me, and I=
 concur
> with your assumption that the RFC Editor will fix the =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=
=80=9D ->
> =E2=80=9Cprimarily=E2=80=9D problem.
>
>
>
> I believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this -07 version, bu=
t
> I suggest giving him an opportunity to double-check before pushing the
> approve-for-publication button.
>

Gorry, I'll add the RFC Editor Note for this, and await your confirmation.

Thanks,

Spencer


> And yes =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m definitely pleased to have reached this sta=
ge in the process.
>
>
>
> Thanks, --David
>
>
>
> *From:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM
> *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
> *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
> experimentation-07.txt
>
>
>
> Hi, David,
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com>
> wrote:
>
> This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.
>
> See the change history for a summary of what's been done, including the
> addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the
> requirement for effective congestion control to section 2.1
>
> Thanks, --David
>
>
>
> Hi, David,
>
>
>
> I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, but remember that
> you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be required, just based on
> the amount of new text that was added in -07.
>
>
>
> Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to your document
> shepherd)?
>
>
>
> I did see one typo in the new text,
>
>
>
> "transition from current ECN functionality falls primary upon" should
> probably be
>
>
>
> "transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon"
>
>
>
> but that's easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need to submi=
t
> an updated draft.
>
>
>
> Just let me know!
>
>
>
> And thanks for horsing that through.
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> > internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM
> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
> > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
> >
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the
> > IETF.
> >
> >         Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion
> Notification (ECN)
> > Experimentation
> >         Author          : David Black
> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
> >       Pages           : 21
> >       Date            : 2017-10-20
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion
> >    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating
> >    network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions in RFC 316=
8
> >    that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of
> >    loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation
> >    and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas.  An
> >    Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take
> >    advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In addition, this memo
> >    makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679
> >    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  This memo also
> >    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and
> >    provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic;
> >    this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1)
> >    codepoint.
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
> >
> > There are also htmlized versions available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
> > experimentation-07
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
> experimentation-07
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > I-D-Announce mailing list
> > I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
>

--94eb2c197f86028b29055d007048
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Both,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Black, David <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Black@dell.com" target=3D"_blank">David.Black@del=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_7496285493541287067WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_7496285493541287067__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;co=
lor:#1f497d">Hi Spencer,<u></u><u></u></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Well, I=E2=80=99m pleasantly surprise=
d that Benoit cleared his Discuss with a simple note of thanks and no furth=
er text change requests.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I=E2=80=99ve checked the -07 vs. -06 =
diff, and it looks good to me, and I concur with your assumption that the R=
FC Editor will fix the =E2=80=9Cprimary=E2=80=9D -&gt; =E2=80=9Cprimarily=
=E2=80=9D problem.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is=
 also fine with this -07 version, but I suggest giving him an opportunity t=
o double-check before pushing the approve-for-publication
 button.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Gorry, I&#3=
9;ll add the RFC Editor Note for this, and await your confirmation.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue=
" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_7496285493541287067WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">And yes =E2=80=A6 I=E2=80=99m definitely ple=
ased to have reached this stage in the process.</span><br></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thanks, --David<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spence=
rdawkins.ietf@<wbr>gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Black, David &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.black@emc.com" target=
=3D"_blank">david.black@emc.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tsvwg@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experimen=
tation-07.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, David,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:David.Black@dell.com" target=3D"_blank">David.Black@dell.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Eval=
uation.<br>
<br>
See the change history for a summary of what&#39;s been done, including the=
 addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the requir=
ement for effective congestion control to section 2.1<br>
<br>
Thanks, --David<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, David,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -=
07, but remember that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be req=
uired, just based on the amount of new text that was added in -07.=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, =
to your document shepherd)?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I did see one typo in the new text,=C2=A0<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;transition from current ECN functionality fall=
s primary upon&quot; should probably be<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&quot;transition from current ECN functionality fall=
s primarily upon&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but that&#39;s easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, i=
f you don&#39;t need to submit an updated draft.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just let me know!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And thanks for horsing that through.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spencer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: I-D-Announce [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce-bounces@<wbr>ietf.org</a>] On Behalf O=
f<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet=
-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-ann=
ounce@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tsvwg@ietf.org=
</a><br>
&gt; Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experimentation-07.txt<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of th=
e<br>
&gt; IETF.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)=
<br>
&gt; Experimentation<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : David Black<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-=
ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experimentation-07.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0: 21<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : 2017-10-20<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Cong=
estion<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for =
indicating<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network congestion to endpoints.=C2=A0 It relaxes restric=
tions in RFC 3168<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just =
removal of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 loss.=C2=A0 This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of=
 experimentation<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these a=
reas.=C2=A0 An<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required =
to take<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 advantage of any of these enabling updates.=C2=A0 In addi=
tion, this memo<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP i=
n RFC 6679<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.=C2=A0 Th=
is memo also<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC=
 3540, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 a=
s Historic;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this reclassification enables new experimental use of the=
 ECT(1)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 codepoint.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-exper=
imentation/" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experimenta=
tion/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experiment=
ation-07" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experimentation-=
07</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-=
" target=3D"_blank">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/<wbr>doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-</a><br>
&gt; experimentation-07<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-ex=
perimentation-07" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?<wbr>url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-<wbr>experime=
ntation-07</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm=
ission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp:=
//ftp.ietf.org/internet-<wbr>drafts/</a><br>
&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; ________________=
______________<wbr>_________________<br>
&gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">I-D-Announc=
e@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>
&gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=
" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.<wbr>html</a><br>
&gt; or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/<wbr>1shadow-sites.txt</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c197f86028b29055d007048--


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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
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David,

Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the hurdles necessary to 
get this through the IESG.

As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text changes that this 
needs another sanity review.
I have checked through the diff and noticed the following.

Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are editorial nits.
Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant changes, but they are 
still not changing the intent of what you typed.


*2. ECN Experimentation: Overview**
*
*Congestion Response Differences:**
*CURRENT

       the proposal in the latter draft
       couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
       Marking Differences changes

SUGGESTED:

       the proposal in the latter draft
       couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion
       marking in the network

RATIONALE:
I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found hard parse 
because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a heading verbatim.

Current:
     This is at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
SUGGESTED:
     These are at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
Rationale: There are 2 changes.

*Congestion Marking Differences:**
*CURRENT:
     is required for any sender congestion response used in this area of 
experimentation
SUGGESTED:
     is required for any differences in congestion marking or response 
used in this area of experimentation

*2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols**
*
This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be clearer though, 
perhaps:
     "Considerations for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"

The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of the context of the 
rest of the doc. So I suggest that each bullet reminds the reader that 
the subject is "implementations not involved in experiments". Also some 
bullets are in the passive without a clear statement of what type of 
node the bullet applies to, which makes this problem worse.

Items #2 & #3 are troubling for three further reasons:
a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not cause ECN and 
drop to no longer be equivalent.
b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it uses ECT(0).
c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate ECT(1).

Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1), contradicts item #3. 
So I've suggested you reverse the order and edit as follows:

CURRENT:

    2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the
        packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
        not the case for either Congestion Response Differences
        experiments (seeSection 4.1 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1>  below) or Congestion Marking
        Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
    3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified
        inSection 4.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below.

SUGGESTED:

    2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate
        traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified
        in Section 4.2 below.
    3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the
        packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
        not the case for Congestion Marking
        Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).


Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running experiments, but 
without saying so...

CURRENT:

    4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used
        previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
        seeSection 4.3 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
        middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
        inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
        encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not
        use ECN.

SUGGESTED:

    4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used
        previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
        seeSection 4.3 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
        middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
        inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
        encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.


Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change (or not) about 
tunnelling.

CURRENT:

    5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel
        encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>].
        Additional related guidance can be found in
        [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>] and
        [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].

SUGGESTED:

    5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes
        encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>],
        which is in the process of being updated by
        [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].
        Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in
        [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>].
        It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without
        changing these existing encapsulation behaviors.


*2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations**
*
I like this a lot too. But a nit:

CURRENT:

the questions inAppendix A 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>

SUGGESTED:

the questions inAppendix A 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>  of RFC 5706


2.4

CURRENT:

    The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce
    functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to

SUGGESTED:

    RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce
    functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to

RATIONALE:
Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's confusing here to say 
it is used.

CURRENT:

    4.  Remove the first two paragraphs ofSection 20.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
        the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
        ofSection 20.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth
        ECN codepoint.

SUGGESTED:

    4.  Remove the first paragraph ofSection 20.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
        the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
        ofSection 20.2 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth
        ECN codepoint.

RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of S.20.2, which is a good 
alternative to the ECN nonce.
In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from Appendix C.1 
of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
instead of using the expired individual draft draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat

(Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).

*4.1 Congestion Response Differences**
*
CURRENT:

      Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a
    higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network
    bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates
    congestion [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>].

SUGGESTED:

      Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that
    there will not be an excessively long queue at the network
    bottleneck node, [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>]
    whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of
    a queue.

RATIONALE:
A drop could be from:
* an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs do not 
define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same length as if a CE 
mark had been emitted (ABE works with equivalence of CE and drop).
* a rate policer that has no queue at all.


*4.2 Congestion Marking Differences**
*
CURRENT:

    Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
    identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
    this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
    codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
    that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-
    approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as
    proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].

SUGGESTED:

    Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
    identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
    this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
    codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
    that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by
    use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks
    at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].

RATIONALE:
Splits v long sentence.




Bob


On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David wrote:
>
> Hi Spencer,
>
> Well, I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss with a 
> simple note of thanks and no further text change requests.
>
> I’ve checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me, and I 
> concur with your assumption that the RFC Editor will fix the “primary” 
> -> “primarily” problem.
>
> I believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this -07 version, 
> but I suggest giving him an opportunity to double-check before pushing 
> the approve-for-publication button.
>
> And yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this stage in the 
> process.
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> *From:*Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM
> *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
> *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: 
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
> Hi, David,
>
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com 
> <mailto:David.Black@dell.com>> wrote:
>
>     This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.
>
>     See the change history for a summary of what's been done,
>     including the addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of
>     section 4.4 on the requirement for effective congestion control to
>     section 2.1
>
>     Thanks, --David
>
> Hi, David,
>
> I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, but remember 
> that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be required, just 
> based on the amount of new text that was added in -07.
>
> Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to your document 
> shepherd)?
>
> I did see one typo in the new text,
>
> "transition from current ECN functionality falls primary upon" should 
> probably be
>
> "transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon"
>
> but that's easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need to 
> submit an updated draft.
>
> Just let me know!
>
> And thanks for horsing that through.
>
> Spencer
>
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
>     > internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>     > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM
>     > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>     > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>     > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>     >
>     >
>     > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>     Internet-Drafts directories.
>     > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG
>     of the
>     > IETF.
>     >
>     >         Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit
>     Congestion Notification (ECN)
>     > Experimentation
>     >         Author          : David Black
>     >       Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>     >       Pages           : 21
>     >       Date            : 2017-10-20
>     >
>     > Abstract:
>     >    This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion
>     >    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for
>     indicating
>     >    network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions in
>     RFC 3168
>     >    that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just
>     removal of
>     >    loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of
>     experimentation
>     >    and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these
>     areas.  An
>     >    Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take
>     >    advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In addition,
>     this memo
>     >    makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in
>     RFC 6679
>     >    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  This memo also
>     >    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC
>     3540, and
>     >    provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as
>     Historic;
>     >    this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1)
>     >    codepoint.
>     >
>     >
>     > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>     >
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
>     >
>     > There are also htmlized versions available at:
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>     > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
>     > experimentation-07
>     >
>     > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>     >
>     https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
>     >
>     >
>     > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time
>     of submission
>     > until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>     tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>     >
>     > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>     > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>     >
>
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    David,<br>
    <br>
    Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the hurdles necessary
    to get this through the IESG.<br>
    <br>
    As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text changes that
    this needs another sanity review.<br>
    I have checked through the diff and noticed the following. <br>
    <br>
    Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are editorial nits. <br>
    Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant changes, but they
    are still not changing the intent of what you typed.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <b>2. ECN Experimentation: Overview</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    <b>Congestion Response Differences:</b><b><br>
    </b>CURRENT<br>
    <pre class="newpage">      the proposal in the latter draft
      couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
      Marking Differences changes</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">      the proposal in the latter draft
      couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion
      marking in the network</pre>
    RATIONALE:<br>
    I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found hard
    parse because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a heading
    verbatim.<br>
    <br>
    Current:<br>
    <tt>    This is at variance with RFC 3168's requirement</tt><tt><br>
    </tt>SUGGESTED:<br>
    <tt>    These are at variance with RFC 3168's requirement</tt><tt><br>
    </tt>Rationale: There are 2 changes.<br>
    <br>
    <b>Congestion Marking Differences:</b><b><br>
    </b>CURRENT:<br>
    <tt><span class="insert">    is required for any sender congestion </span></tt><tt><span
        class="insert">response </span></tt><tt><span class="insert">used
        in this area of experimentation</span></tt><tt><br>
    </tt>SUGGESTED:<br>
    <tt><span class="insert">    is required for any differences in
        congestion marking or response </span></tt><tt><span
        class="insert">used in this area of experimentation</span></tt><br>
    <br>
    <b>2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be clearer
    though, perhaps:<br>
    <tt>    "Considerations for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments</tt><tt>"<br>
    </tt><br>
    The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of the context of
    the rest of the doc. So I suggest that each bullet reminds the
    reader that the subject is "implementations not involved in
    experiments". Also some bullets are in the passive without a clear
    statement of what type of node the bullet applies to, which makes
    this problem worse.<br>
    <br>
    Items #2 &amp; #3 are troubling for three further reasons:<br>
    a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not cause ECN
    and drop to no longer be equivalent.<br>
    b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it uses ECT(0).<br>
    c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate ECT(1).<br>
    <br>
    Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1), contradicts item
    #3. So I've suggested you reverse the order and edit as follows:<br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the
       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
       not the case for either Congestion Response Differences
       experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1">Section 4.1</a> below) or Congestion Marking
       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2">Section 4.2</a> below).
   3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified
       in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2">Section 4.2</a> below.</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate
       traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified
       in Section 4.2 below.
   3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the
       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
       not the case for Congestion Marking
       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2">Section 4.2</a> below).</pre>
    <br>
    Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running experiments,
    but without saying so...<br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used
       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for
       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
       encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not
       use ECN.</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used
       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for
       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
       encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.</pre>
    <br>
    Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change (or not) about
    tunnelling.<br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel
       encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;">RFC6040</a>].
       Additional related guidance can be found in
       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>] and
       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes 
       encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;">RFC6040</a>],
       which is in the process of being updated by 
       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].
       Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in
       [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>].
       It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without 
       changing these existing encapsulation behaviors. 
</pre>
    <br>
    <b>2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    I like this a lot too. But a nit:<br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A">Appendix A</a></pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A">Appendix A</a> of RFC 5706</pre>
    <br>
    2.4 <br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce
   functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce
   functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to</pre>
    RATIONALE:<br>
    Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's confusing here to
    say it is used.<br>
    <br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   4.  Remove the first two paragraphs of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss
       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth
       ECN codepoint.</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   4.  Remove the first paragraph of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss
       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth
       ECN codepoint.</pre>
    RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of S.20.2, which is a good
    alternative to the ECN nonce. <br>
    In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from Appendix
    C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id<br>
    instead of using the expired individual draft
    draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat<br>
    <br>
    (Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).<br>
    <br>
    <b>4.1 Congestion Response Differences</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a
   higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network
   bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates
   congestion [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>].</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that
   there will not be an excessively long queue at the network
   bottleneck node, [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>]
   whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of
   a queue.</pre>
    RATIONALE:<br>
    A drop could be from:<br>
    * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs do not
    define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same length as if a
    CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with equivalence of CE and
    drop). <br>
    * a rate policer that has no queue at all.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <b>4.2 Congestion Marking Differences</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    CURRENT:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
   that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-
   approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as
   proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].</pre>
    SUGGESTED:<br>
    <pre class="newpage">   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
   that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by 
   use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks 
   at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].</pre>
    RATIONALE:<br>
    Splits v long sentence.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"
            moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
              Spencer,<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Well,
            I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss
            with a simple note of thanks and no further text change
            requests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ve
            checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me, and I
            concur with your assumption that the RFC Editor will fix the
            “primary” -&gt; “primarily” problem.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
            believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this -07
            version, but I suggest giving him an opportunity to
            double-check before pushing the approve-for-publication
            button.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">And
            yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this stage in
            the process.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,
            --David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                  Spencer Dawkins at IETF
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com">mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Black, David <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM,
                  Black, David &lt;<a href="mailto:David.Black@dell.com"
                    target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">David.Black@dell.com</a>&gt;
                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                  6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal">This draft contains changes
                    resulting from IESG Evaluation.<br>
                    <br>
                    See the change history for a summary of what's been
                    done, including the addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3
                    and movement of section 4.4 on the requirement for
                    effective congestion control to section 2.1<br>
                    <br>
                    Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></p>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">I see that Benoit has cleared
                      his Discuss based on -07, but remember that you
                      mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be
                      required, just based on the amount of new text
                      that was added in -07. <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Does it still seem that way to
                      you (and, of course, to your document shepherd)?<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">I did see one typo in the new
                      text, <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from current ECN
                      functionality falls primary upon" should probably
                      be<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from current ECN
                      functionality falls primarily upon"<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">but that's easily fixed in an
                      RFC Editor Note, if you don't need to submit an
                      updated draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Just let me know!<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">And thanks for horsing that
                      through.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Spencer<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                  1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                  6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">&gt; -----Original
                        Message-----<br>
                        &gt; From: I-D-Announce [mailto:<a
                          href="mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                        On Behalf Of<br>
                        &gt; <a href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
                        &gt; Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM<br>
                        &gt; To: <a href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
                        &gt; Cc: <a href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br>
                        &gt; Subject: I-D Action:
                        draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the
                        on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br>
                        &gt; This draft is a work item of the Transport
                        Area Working Group WG of the<br>
                        &gt; IETF.<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt;         Title           : Relaxing
                        Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification
                        (ECN)<br>
                        &gt; Experimentation<br>
                        &gt;         Author          : David Black<br>
                        &gt;       Filename        :
                        draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                        &gt;       Pages           : 21<br>
                        &gt;       Date            : 2017-10-20<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; Abstract:<br>
                        &gt;    This memo updates RFC 3168, which
                        specifies Explicit Congestion<br>
                        &gt;    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to
                        packet drops for indicating<br>
                        &gt;    network congestion to endpoints.  It
                        relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168<br>
                        &gt;    that hinder experimentation towards
                        benefits beyond just removal of<br>
                        &gt;    loss.  This memo summarizes the
                        anticipated areas of experimentation<br>
                        &gt;    and updates RFC 3168 to enable
                        experimentation in these areas.  An<br>
                        &gt;    Experimental RFC in the IETF document
                        stream is required to take<br>
                        &gt;    advantage of any of these enabling
                        updates.  In addition, this memo<br>
                        &gt;    makes related updates to the ECN
                        specifications for RTP in RFC 6679<br>
                        &gt;    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and
                        RFC 5622.  This memo also<br>
                        &gt;    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce
                        experiment in RFC 3540, and<br>
                        &gt;    provides the rationale for
                        reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic;<br>
                        &gt;    this reclassification enables new
                        experimental use of the ECT(1)<br>
                        &gt;    codepoint.<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this
                        draft is:<br>
                        &gt; <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/</a><br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; There are also htmlized versions available
                        at:<br>
                        &gt; <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                        &gt; <a
                          href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-</a><br>
                        &gt; experimentation-07<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; A diff from the previous version is
                        available at:<br>
                        &gt; <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; Please note that it may take a couple of
                        minutes from the time of submission<br>
                        &gt; until the htmlized version and diff are
                        available at <a href="http://tools.ietf.org"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                          tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
                        &gt;<br>
                        &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by
                        anonymous FTP at:<br>
                        &gt; <a
                          href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
                        &gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt;
                    _______________________________________________<br>
                    &gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
                    &gt; <a href="mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br>
                    &gt; <a
                      href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>
                    &gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a
                      href="http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                      http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><br>
                    &gt; or <a
                      href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

--------------6F3792D4EC0D048A9CE8012E--


From nobody Fri Nov  3 06:24:54 2017
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Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 13:24:03 +0000
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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Subject: [tsvwg] Draft agenda for TSV WG at IET-100.
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Here is the draft agenda for the next meeting. The latest version of the agenda may be found in the proceedings, here:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-tsvwg/

Best wishes,

Gorry, David and Wes.

--------

IETF-100 TSVWG Meeting
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 17:40-18:40 Monday Afternoon session III

Chairs: (15 min, incl. chairs slides, completed RFCs, milestones, etc.)
RFC's completed:
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps
draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-ndata (I-data)
Other IDs:
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation (post IESG, will be at RFC Editor soon)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11
draft-ietf-tsvwg-tunnel-congestion-feedback
draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options
Note detnet WG discussion of draft-thubert-tsvwg-detnet-transport (in detnet WG)

ECN encapsulation (Bob Briscoe) (10 min)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines

LE PHB, round 1 (Roland Bless) (15 min)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb

Individual ID (Colin Perkins) (20 min)
draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 9:30-11:30 Friday Morning session

SCTP (Michael Tuexen: at al) (15 min)
draft-tuexen-tsvwg-sctp-udp-encaps-cons
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata
draft-ietf-tsvwg-natsupp

L4S (Bob Briscoe et al) (10 min)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch

LE PHB, round 2 (Roland Bless) (20 min)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb

FECFRAME (Vincent Rocca) (15 min)
draft-ietf-tsvwg-fecframe-ext
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme

NEW DRAFTS
Michael Tuexen: draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-datagram-plpmtud (20 mins)
Lin Han: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos (20 mins)
Anais Finzi: draft-finzi-priority-switching-scheduler (20 mins)


From nobody Fri Nov  3 06:43:55 2017
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
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David,

No comment = agreement.
Otherwise, see responses inline...

And you have my continuing gratitude that you're in the firing line on 
this one, not me.


On 03/11/17 13:43, Black, David wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Many thanks for giving this a careful review.  A -08 version is now 
> needed – expect that to be posted sometime during the Singapore 
> meeting week.
>
> Comments inline …
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> *From:*Bob Briscoe [mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:36 PM
> *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
> *Cc:* tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: 
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
> David,
>
> Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the hurdles necessary 
> to get this through the IESG.
>
> As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text changes that this 
> needs another sanity review.
> I have checked through the diff and noticed the following.
>
> Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are editorial nits.
> Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant changes, but they 
> are still not changing the intent of what you typed.
>
>
> *2. ECN Experimentation: Overview
> *
> *Congestion Response Differences:
> *CURRENT
>
>        the proposal in the latter draft
>        couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
>        Marking Differences changes
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>        the proposal in the latter draft
>        couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion
>        marking in the network
>
> RATIONALE:
> I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found hard 
> parse because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a heading verbatim.
>
> */[David>I see the concern: “changes” -> “functionality” should better 
> disambiguate this./*
>
[BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What about just deleting "changes"?

>
> Current:
>     This is at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
> SUGGESTED:
>     These are at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
> Rationale: There are 2 changes.
>
> */[David>] ACK: “This” -> “These changes”/*
>
>
> *Congestion Marking Differences:
> *CURRENT:
>     is required for any sender congestion response used in this area 
> of experimentation
> SUGGESTED:
>     is required for any differences in congestion marking or response 
> used in this area of experimentation
>
> */[David>] Ok, original text was courtesy of sender congestion 
> response being the focus in discussion./*
>
>
> *2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols
> *
> This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be clearer 
> though, perhaps:
>     "Considerations for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"
>
> */[David>] This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network Considerations for 
> ECN Experimentation” and then make “not involved” clearer in the body 
> of the section./*
>
[BB] Having read your responses below about each guideline in this 
section, I now remember that, as a convenience to developers of network 
equipment, you intended to collect together those aspects that affect them.

The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So if that's 
what you intend, they need to say that.

I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue Hares's | 
your} concern that trill-ecn-support required expertise to write in a 
way that navigated around the experiments. That led to the idea that we 
should codify that expertise into this process draft in case someone 
wants to introduce another new protocol that interacts with ECN while 
the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol design guidance is 
only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped.

Whatever, I don't want to hold up this draft, so pls go ahead. We just 
have to tick the boxes...


>
> The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of the context of 
> the rest of the doc. So I suggest that each bullet reminds the reader 
> that the subject is "implementations not involved in experiments". 
> Also some bullets are in the passive without a clear statement of what 
> type of node the bullet applies to, which makes this problem worse.
>
> */[David>] Taking a fresh look at the list, bullets #4 and #5 seem to 
> be different in scope and level of emphasis from the first 3.   I’ll 
> move #4 and #5 to stand-alone paragraphs, so that “not involved in 
> experiments” can then be in the lead-in text that covers the first 3 
> bullets./*
>
[BB] OK

>
> Items #2 & #3 are troubling for three further reasons:
> a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not cause ECN and 
> drop to no longer be equivalent.
> b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it uses ECT(0).
> c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate ECT(1).
>
> Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1), contradicts item 
> #3. So I've suggested you reverse the order and edit as follows:
>
> CURRENT:*//*
>
>     2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the
>         packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
>         not the case for either Congestion Response Differences
>         experiments (seeSection 4.1 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1>  below) or Congestion Marking
>         Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
>     3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified
>         inSection 4.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below.
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate
>         traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified
>         in Section 4.2 below.
> */[David>] It’s more than hosts, as routers can originate traffic for 
> purposes such as control and management./*
[BB] 'A node not involved in experiments' would be fine. My main concern 
was to add the 'not involved in experiments' phrase.


>     3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the
>         packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
>         not the case for Congestion Marking
>         Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
> */[David>] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the scope 
> to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the network 
> that forward CE packets. /*
> */RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are 
> drop-equivalent implies and hence are ok to drop in the network if it 
> would be inconvenient to forward them. /*
> *//**/That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward” as 
> justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement./*
[BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd written any implication that it's 
more OK to drop CE packets than others. Where does any RFC say that? 
This is not written in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares this 
presumption.

If I am right that dropping CE packets is not a valid case, is there any 
other action of a network node for which Guideline #2 is correct?

It's not true for marking. Because network nodes not involved in an 
experiment mark ECT(0) and ECT(1) as equivalent to drop (as per Section 
4.2).

it /is/ true wrt the congestion response to markings of a sender 
involved in experiments. But you want this section to be about network 
nodes. So I cannot think of another network-based action for which 
guideline#2 is applicable.


>
> Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running experiments, 
> but without saying so...
>
> */[David>] Not exactly, this is more about middleboxes that believe 
> they are all-knowing about what protocols like TCP and RTP do, and 
> hence drop packets that use ECN where it’s not supposed to be used. 
> Complaints about bad middlebox behavior should be sent to /dev/null, 
> please.  However …/*
>
> CURRENT:
>
>     4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used
>         previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
>         seeSection 4.3 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
>         middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
>         inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
>         encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not
>         use ECN.
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used
>         previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
>         seeSection 4.3 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
>         middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
>         inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
>         encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.
> */[David>] That helps, I will make that change./*
>
>
> Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change (or not) about 
> tunnelling.
>
> CURRENT:
>
>     5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel
>         encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>].
>         Additional related guidance can be found in
>         [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>] and
>         [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes
>         encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>],
>         which is in the process of being updated by
>         [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].
>         Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in
>         [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>].
>         It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without
>         changing these existing encapsulation behaviors.
> */[David>] Yes, and in particular, the last sentence is definitely a 
> useful addition.  I will pick this up, with some editing./*
>
>
> *2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations
> *
> I like this a lot too. But a nit:
>
> CURRENT:
>
> the questions inAppendix A 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
> the questions inAppendix A 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>  of RFC 5706*//*
> */[David>] ACK, will do./*
>
>
> 2.4
>
> CURRENT:
>
>     The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce
>     functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce
>     functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to
>
> RATIONALE:
> Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's confusing here to say 
> it is used.
>
> */[David>] Will do, with “assigns” -> “assigned”/*
>
>
>
> CURRENT:
>
>     4.  Remove the first two paragraphs ofSection 20.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
>         the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
>         ofSection 20.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth
>         ECN codepoint.
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     4.  Remove the first paragraph ofSection 20.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
>         the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
>         ofSection 20.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth
>         ECN codepoint.
>
> RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of S.20.2, which is a good 
> alternative to the ECN nonce.
> In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from Appendix 
> C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
> instead of using the expired individual draft 
> draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat
>
> */[David>] Hmm – I think that 2^nd paragraph does have to come out.   
> I suggest either referencing RFC 3168 as originally published, and/or 
> copying that text into the l4s-id draft with attribution of source./*
>
[BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para is about the sender introducing 
CE randomly as an alternative to the nonce. We want to keep that 
approach - it's useful.

Perhaps you are concerned that the last sentence says random CE would be 
less effective than the nonce.

But it's OK to say that; it's actually true. Saying that doesn't 
undermine our decision to obsolete the nonce, which we justified on 
wider considerations than just effectiveness:
a) burning a codepoint for improved effectiveness isn't considered 
worthwhile any more
b) particularly because the nonce wasn't deployed.


> *//*
>
>
> (Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).
>
> */[David>] ACK/*
>
>
>
> *4.1 Congestion Response Differences
> *
> CURRENT:
>
>       Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a
>     higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network
>     bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates
>     congestion [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>].
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>       Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that
>     there will not be an excessively long queue at the network
>     bottleneck node, [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>]
>     whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of
>     a queue.
>
> RATIONALE:
> A drop could be from:
> * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs do not 
> define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same length as if a 
> CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with equivalence of CE and drop).
> * a rate policer that has no queue at all.
>
> */[David>] That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood” language.  No 
> change needed here./*
>

[BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.
I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is it a high chance of shorter 
queue, or higher chance of a short queue?"
It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not necessarily a 
short*er* queue.

Firstly a picky point; ABE doesn't know if it's "a packet drop that 
indicates congestion".
But my argument is much bigger than that. I'll state it more precisely...

Consider ABE experiences an ECN-mark, which must be from an ECN-capable 
AQM.
I'll define the queue length in this case as Qe

Now compare with the queue lengths in these 4 cases where the same 
ECN-capable packet from ABE experiences a drop instead:
Qe = Qa : drop from non-ECN AQM
Qe < Qb : tail drop
Qe > Qc : drop from a rate policer
Qe >or< Qd : drop due to corruption

So, in no way does CE communicate that there is a higher likelihood that 
Qe is shorter in comparison to the queue had the ECN-mark been a drop 
(Qa, Qb, Qc or Qd).

Something along the lines of the alternative phrasing I suggested 
previously would be sufficient to justify ABE, without being incorrect.

> *//*
>
>
>
> *4.2 Congestion Marking Differences
> *
> CURRENT:
>
>     Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
>     identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
>     this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
>     codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
>     that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-
>     approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as
>     proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>     Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
>     identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
>     this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
>     codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
>     that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by
>     use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks
>     at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].
>
> RATIONALE:
> Splits v long sentence.
>
> */[David>] Ok, but use of “would” is too weak – I will split sentence 
> and make it clear that the different congestion response is necessary./*
>
[BB] Fine.

Cheers




Bob
>
> *//*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
> On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David wrote:
>
>     Hi Spencer,
>
>     Well, I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss
>     with a simple note of thanks and no further text change requests.
>
>     I’ve checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me, and I
>     concur with your assumption that the RFC Editor will fix the
>     “primary” -> “primarily” problem.
>
>     I believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this -07
>     version, but I suggest giving him an opportunity to double-check
>     before pushing the approve-for-publication button.
>
>     And yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this stage in the
>     process.
>
>     Thanks, --David
>
>     *From:*Spencer Dawkins at IETF [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM
>     *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com> <mailto:david.black@emc.com>
>     *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
>     draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
>     Hi, David,
>
>     On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David
>     <David.Black@dell.com <mailto:David.Black@dell.com>> wrote:
>
>         This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.
>
>         See the change history for a summary of what's been done,
>         including the addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of
>         section 4.4 on the requirement for effective congestion
>         control to section 2.1
>
>         Thanks, --David
>
>     Hi, David,
>
>     I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, but
>     remember that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might be
>     required, just based on the amount of new text that was added in -07.
>
>     Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to your
>     document shepherd)?
>
>     I did see one typo in the new text,
>
>     "transition from current ECN functionality falls primary upon"
>     should probably be
>
>     "transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon"
>
>     but that's easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need
>     to submit an updated draft.
>
>     Just let me know!
>
>     And thanks for horsing that through.
>
>     Spencer
>
>         > -----Original Message-----
>         > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org
>         <mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
>         > internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>         > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM
>         > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>         > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>         > Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>         >
>         >
>         > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>         Internet-Drafts directories.
>         > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working
>         Group WG of the
>         > IETF.
>         >
>         >         Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit
>         Congestion Notification (ECN)
>         > Experimentation
>         >         Author          : David Black
>         >       Filename        :
>         draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>         >       Pages           : 21
>         >       Date            : 2017-10-20
>         >
>         > Abstract:
>         >    This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit
>         Congestion
>         >    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for
>         indicating
>         >    network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions
>         in RFC 3168
>         >    that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just
>         removal of
>         >    loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of
>         experimentation
>         >    and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these
>         areas.  An
>         >    Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required
>         to take
>         >    advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In addition,
>         this memo
>         >    makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP
>         in RFC 6679
>         >    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  This
>         memo also
>         >    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC
>         3540, and
>         >    provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540
>         as Historic;
>         >    this reclassification enables new experimental use of the
>         ECT(1)
>         >    codepoint.
>         >
>         >
>         > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>         >
>         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
>         >
>         > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>         >
>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
>         > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
>         > experimentation-07
>         >
>         > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>         >
>         https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
>         >
>         >
>         > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the
>         time of submission
>         > until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>         tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>         >
>         > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>         > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>         >
>
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > I-D-Announce mailing list
>         > I-D-Announce@ietf.org <mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org>
>         > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>         > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>         <http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html>
>         > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>


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    David,<br>
    <br>
    No comment = agreement.<br>
    Otherwise, see responses inline...<br>
    <br>
    And you have my continuing gratitude that you're in the firing line
    on this one, not me.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 03/11/17 13:43, Black, David wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"
            moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Many
            thanks for giving this a careful review.  A -08 version is
            now needed – expect that to be posted sometime during the
            Singapore meeting week.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Comments
            inline …<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Thanks,
              --David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
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              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                  Bob Briscoe
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com">mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:36 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Black, David <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> tsvwg IETF list <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org">&lt;tsvwg@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">David,<br>
            <br>
            Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the hurdles
            necessary to get this through the IESG.<br>
            <br>
            As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text changes
            that this needs another sanity review.<br>
            I have checked through the diff and noticed the following. <br>
            <br>
            Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are editorial
            nits. <br>
            Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant changes,
            but they are still not changing the intent of what you
            typed.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <b>2. ECN Experimentation: Overview<br>
            </b><br>
            <b>Congestion Response Differences:<br>
            </b>CURRENT<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>      couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>      Marking Differences changes<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>      couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>      marking in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
            I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG
            found hard parse because it is a tautology resulting from
            quoting a heading verbatim.<span style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;I
                  see the concern: “changes” -&gt; “functionality”
                  should better disambiguate this.</span></i></b><br>
          </p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What about just deleting
    "changes"?<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal">
            <br>
            Current:<br>
            <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    This is at variance
                with RFC 3168's requirement</span></tt><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;"><br>
            </span>SUGGESTED:<br>
            <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    These are at variance
                with RFC 3168's requirement</span></tt><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;"><br>
            </span>Rationale: There are 2 changes.<span
              style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  ACK: “This” -&gt; “These changes”<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <b>Congestion Marking Differences:<br>
            </b>CURRENT:<br>
            <span class="insert"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;">    is required for any sender congestion
                response used in this area of experimentation</span></span><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;"><br>
            </span>SUGGESTED:<br>
            <span class="insert"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;">    is required for any differences in
                congestion marking or response used in this area of
                experimentation</span></span><span class="insert"><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Ok, original text was courtesy of sender congestion
                  response being the focus in discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <b>2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols<br>
            </b><br>
            This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be
            clearer though, perhaps:<br>
            <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    "Considerations for
                Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"</span></tt><tt><span
                style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></tt></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network
                  Considerations for ECN Experimentation” and then make
                  “not involved” clearer in the body of the section.</span></i></b><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;"><br>
            </span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] Having read your responses below about each guideline in this
    section, I now remember that, as a convenience to developers of
    network equipment, you intended to collect together those aspects
    that affect them.<br>
    <br>
    The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So if
    that's what you intend, they need to say that.<br>
    <br>
    I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue Hares's |
    your} concern that trill-ecn-support required expertise to write in
    a way that navigated around the experiments. That led to the idea
    that we should codify that expertise into this process draft in case
    someone wants to introduce another new protocol that interacts with
    ECN while the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol
    design guidance is only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped. <br>
    <br>
    Whatever, I don't want to hold up this draft, so pls go ahead. We
    just have to tick the boxes...<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
              style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;">
            </span><br>
            The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of the
            context of the rest of the doc. So I suggest that each
            bullet reminds the reader that the subject is
            "implementations not involved in experiments". Also some
            bullets are in the passive without a clear statement of what
            type of node the bullet applies to, which makes this problem
            worse.<span style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Taking a fresh look at the list, bullets #4 and #5
                  seem to be different in scope and level of emphasis
                  from the first 3.   I’ll move #4 and #5 to stand-alone
                  paragraphs, so that “not involved in experiments” can
                  then be in the lead-in text that covers the first 3
                  bullets.</span></i></b><br>
          </p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] OK<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal">
            <br>
            Items #2 &amp; #3 are troubling for three further reasons:<br>
            a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not
            cause ECN and drop to no longer be equivalent.<br>
            b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it uses
            ECT(0).<br>
            c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate ECT(1).<br>
            <br>
            Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1),
            contradicts item #3. So I've suggested you reverse the order
            and edit as follows:<br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <pre>   2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       not the case for either Congestion Response Differences<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.1</a> below) or Congestion Marking<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       in Section 4.2 below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] It’s more than hosts, as routers can originate traffic for purposes such as control and management.</span></i></b></pre>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] 'A node not involved in experiments' would be fine. My main
    concern was to add the 'not involved in experiments' phrase.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <pre><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <pre>   3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       not the case for Congestion Marking<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the scope to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the network that forward CE packets.  </span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are drop-equivalent implies and hence are ok to drop in the network if it would be inconvenient to forward them.  </span></i></b>
<b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"></span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward” as justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd written any implication that
    it's more OK to drop CE packets than others. Where does any RFC say
    that? This is not written in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares
    this presumption. <br>
    <br>
    If I am right that dropping CE packets is not a valid case, is there
    any other action of a network node for which Guideline #2 is
    correct?<br>
    <br>
    It's not true for marking. Because network nodes not involved in an
    experiment mark ECT(0) and ECT(1) as equivalent to drop (as per
    Section 4.2). <br>
    <br>
    it /is/ true wrt the congestion response to markings of a sender
    involved in experiments. But you want this section to be about
    network nodes. So I cannot think of another network-based action for
    which guideline#2 is applicable.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running
            experiments, but without saying so...<span
              style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Not exactly, this is more about middleboxes that
                  believe they are all-knowing about what protocols like
                  TCP and RTP do, and hence drop packets that use ECN
                  where it’s not supposed to be used. Complaints about
                  bad middlebox behavior should be sent to /dev/null,
                  please.  However …</span></i></b><br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       use ECN.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] That helps, I will make that change.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change (or
            not) about tunnelling.<br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;" moz-do-not-send="true">RFC6040</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       Additional related guidance can be found in<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>] and<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;" moz-do-not-send="true">RFC6040</a>],<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       which is in the process of being updated by <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       changing these existing encapsulation behaviors. <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] Yes, and in particular, the last sentence is definitely a useful addition.  I will pick this up, with some editing.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <b>2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations<br>
            </b><br>
            I like this a lot too. But a nit:<br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A" moz-do-not-send="true">Appendix A</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A" moz-do-not-send="true">Appendix A</a> of RFC 5706<b><i><o:p></o:p></i></b></pre>
          <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] ACK, will do.</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            2.4 <br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
            Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's confusing
            here to say it is used.<span style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Will do, with “assigns” -&gt; “assigned”<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   4.  Remove the first two paragraphs of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       ECN codepoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   4.  Remove the first paragraph of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>       ECN codepoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para
            of S.20.2, which is a good alternative to the ECN nonce.
            <br>
            In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from
            Appendix C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id<br>
            instead of using the expired individual draft
            draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat<span style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Hmm – I think that 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph does have
                  to come out.   I suggest either referencing RFC 3168
                  as originally published, and/or copying that text into
                  the l4s-id draft with attribution of source.</span></i></b></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para is about the sender
    introducing CE randomly as an alternative to the nonce. We want to
    keep that approach - it's useful.<br>
    <br>
    Perhaps you are concerned that the last sentence says random CE
    would be less effective than the nonce. <br>
    <br>
    But it's OK to say that; it's actually true. Saying that doesn't
    undermine our decision to obsolete the nonce, which we justified on
    wider considerations than just effectiveness:<br>
    a) burning a codepoint for improved effectiveness isn't considered
    worthwhile any more<br>
    b) particularly because the nonce wasn't deployed.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            (Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).<span
              style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  ACK<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <b>4.1 Congestion Response Differences<br>
            </b><br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   congestion [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   there will not be an excessively long queue at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   bottleneck node, [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   a queue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
            A drop could be from:<br>
            * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs
            do not define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same
            length as if a CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with
            equivalence of CE and drop).
            <br>
            * a rate policer that has no queue at all.<span
              style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood”
                  language.  No change needed here.</span></i></b></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    [BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.<br>
    I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is it a high chance of
    shorter queue, or higher chance of a short queue?"<br>
    It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not necessarily
    a short*er* queue.<br>
    <br>
    Firstly a picky point; ABE doesn't know if it's "a packet drop that
    indicates congestion".  <br>
    But my argument is much bigger than that. I'll state it more
    precisely...<br>
    <br>
    Consider ABE experiences an ECN-mark, which must be from an
    ECN-capable AQM. <br>
    I'll define the queue length in this case as Qe<br>
    <br>
    Now compare with the queue lengths in these 4 cases where the same
    ECN-capable packet from ABE experiences a drop instead:<br>
    Qe = Qa : drop from non-ECN AQM<br>
    Qe &lt; Qb : tail drop<br>
    Qe &gt; Qc : drop from a rate policer<br>
    Qe &gt;or&lt; Qd : drop due to corruption<br>
    <br>
    So, in no way does CE communicate that there is a higher likelihood
    that Qe is shorter in comparison to the queue had the ECN-mark been
    a drop (Qa, Qb, Qc or Qd).<br>
    <br>
    Something along the lines of the alternative phrasing I suggested
    previously would be sufficient to justify ABE, without being
    incorrect.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <b>4.2 Congestion Marking Differences<br>
            </b><br>
            CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>   at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">RATIONALE:<br>
            Splits v long sentence.<span style="color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                  Ok, but use of “would” is too weak – I will split
                  sentence and make it clear that the different
                  congestion response is necessary.</span></i></b></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] Fine.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD2C77A@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Bob<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
                Spencer,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Well,
                I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss
                with a simple note of thanks and no further text change
                requests.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ve
                checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me,
                and I concur with your assumption that the RFC Editor
                will fix the “primary” -&gt; “primarily” problem.
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
                believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this
                -07 version, but I suggest giving him an opportunity to
                double-check before pushing the approve-for-publication
                button.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">And
                yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this stage
                in the process.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,
                --David</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                      Spencer Dawkins at IETF [<a
                        href="mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Black, David <a
                        href="mailto:david.black@emc.com"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</a><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                      draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37
                      PM, Black, David &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:David.Black@dell.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">David.Black@dell.com</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                      #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <p class="MsoNormal">This draft contains changes
                        resulting from IESG Evaluation.<br>
                        <br>
                        See the change history for a summary of what's
                        been done, including the addition of sections
                        2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section 4.4 on the
                        requirement for effective congestion control to
                        section 2.1<br>
                        <br>
                        Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">I see that Benoit has
                          cleared his Discuss based on -07, but remember
                          that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08
                          might be required, just based on the amount of
                          new text that was added in -07. <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Does it still seem that way
                          to you (and, of course, to your document
                          shepherd)?<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">I did see one typo in the
                          new text, <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from current
                          ECN functionality falls primary upon" should
                          probably be<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from current
                          ECN functionality falls primarily upon"<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">but that's easily fixed in
                          an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need to
                          submit an updated draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Just let me know!<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">And thanks for horsing that
                          through.<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Spencer<o:p></o:p></p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                      #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">&gt; -----Original
                            Message-----<br>
                            &gt; From: I-D-Announce [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                            On Behalf Of<br>
                            &gt; <a
                              href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
                            &gt; Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM<br>
                            &gt; To: <a
                              href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
                            &gt; Cc: <a href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br>
                            &gt; Subject: I-D Action:
                            draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from
                            the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br>
                            &gt; This draft is a work item of the
                            Transport Area Working Group WG of the<br>
                            &gt; IETF.<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt;         Title           : Relaxing
                            Restrictions on Explicit Congestion
                            Notification (ECN)<br>
                            &gt; Experimentation<br>
                            &gt;         Author          : David Black<br>
                            &gt;       Filename        :
                            draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                            &gt;       Pages           : 21<br>
                            &gt;       Date            : 2017-10-20<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; Abstract:<br>
                            &gt;    This memo updates RFC 3168, which
                            specifies Explicit Congestion<br>
                            &gt;    Notification (ECN) as an alternative
                            to packet drops for indicating<br>
                            &gt;    network congestion to endpoints.  It
                            relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168<br>
                            &gt;    that hinder experimentation towards
                            benefits beyond just removal of<br>
                            &gt;    loss.  This memo summarizes the
                            anticipated areas of experimentation<br>
                            &gt;    and updates RFC 3168 to enable
                            experimentation in these areas.  An<br>
                            &gt;    Experimental RFC in the IETF
                            document stream is required to take<br>
                            &gt;    advantage of any of these enabling
                            updates.  In addition, this memo<br>
                            &gt;    makes related updates to the ECN
                            specifications for RTP in RFC 6679<br>
                            &gt;    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342
                            and RFC 5622.  This memo also<br>
                            &gt;    records the conclusion of the ECN
                            nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and<br>
                            &gt;    provides the rationale for
                            reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic;<br>
                            &gt;    this reclassification enables new
                            experimental use of the ECT(1)<br>
                            &gt;    codepoint.<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; The IETF datatracker status page for
                            this draft is:<br>
                            &gt; <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/</a><br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; There are also htmlized versions
                            available at:<br>
                            &gt; <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                            &gt; <a
                              href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-</a><br>
                            &gt; experimentation-07<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; A diff from the previous version is
                            available at:<br>
                            &gt; <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; Please note that it may take a couple
                            of minutes from the time of submission<br>
                            &gt; until the htmlized version and diff are
                            available at <a
                              href="http://tools.ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
                            &gt;<br>
                            &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by
                            anonymous FTP at:<br>
                            &gt; <a
                              href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
                            &gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt;
                        _______________________________________________<br>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments about draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-01.txt
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Sowmini and list,

A week ago we posted a major revision: 
draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02

It includes all the offline advice you (Sowmini) said would be good to 
have in the doc itself.
Apologies for the long delay replying, I started a couple of month's 
break between jobs just as we started talking.

[Actually I just noticed the way you quoted it in your email is clearer 
than how we wrote it in the draft, so I have just updated our local copy 
again (will appear on IETF servers in the next rev).]

There's also 2 whole new sections:
* DualQ Coupled AQM structure (2pp)
* Management Requirements (Normative) (1p)

The cleaner structure mainly affects the management requirements (config 
and statistics monitoring), which we will present in Singapore.
We now have a modular separation between the three main pluggable 
components:
* the Base AQM
* the L4S AQM
* the framework (classifier, coupling, and conditional priority 
scheduler) [+ policing (TBA)]
(plus of course the sender CC algorithm is also pluggable)

This structure has been reflected in the Linux implementation (these 
updates are still in the private development version). Thanks to Henrik 
Steen this now makes the 2 queues within the qdisc classful, so they 
inherit all their config and statistics monitoring from the qdisc class. 
This gives operators a regular hierarchical queuing structure. Whereas 
before the dualQ was a monolithic blob that didn't fit well within any 
larger queuing hierarchy.

We also clarified numerous technical aspects that have changed over the 
last year, where the pseudocode has changed, but the text hasn't kept up.
Particular thanks to you (Sowmini) & Gabi Bracha off-list, who were 
trying to understand it and gave useful review comments.

Main changes:
* Added diagram and description of structure of AQM framework.
* Supports a pair of AQMs 'native' to each queue, both time-based.
Examples (in the order: native Classic + native L4S):
* DualPI2 = PI2 + shallow step
* DualCurvyRED = Curvy RED + shallow step
Explained distinction between DualPI2 and PI2 (and PIE).

Added Management Requirements:
* Configuration
* Monitoring

Explained pseudocode much more clearly.
* Removed implementation tricks to focus on how it is meant to work.

Curvy RED pseudocode is not as well-maintained.
However, we have provided a clear list of all the peripheral aspects 
that would have to be added (all can be translated from DualPI2).


Finally, a note about the command line API for DualPI2 (documented in 
the code, not the draft, but we've changed the draft to be consistent):
We decided we had to break backward compatibility with the PIE AP:
   - So that parameters could be changed independently
     (when you changed one PIE parameter, you sometimes had to change 
another to keep it unchanged underneath)
   - Some PIE parameters had to be entered in obscure units like 1/16 of 
1 Hz


Extra responses inline...

On 08/08/17 20:34, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> Speaking as an individual, but as an individual who needs to 
> understand what's going on at PubReq time :-) ...
>
> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Sowmini Varadhan 
> <sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com <mailto:sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
>     I had some questions as I was going over this document and
>     Bob Briscoe suggested that this might be a useful discussion to
>     share with a list, so here's a current summary, including
>     clarifications that Bob provided for me offline
>
>     In general, I liked the fact that the Appendix starts off by first
>     discussing core concepts and then gets into the more complex overload
>     case- this makes it easy to understand how the various blocks build on
>     each other.
>
>     In keeping with that same core -> complex flow, it might be easier to
>     refactor Appendix A.1 a bit, so that it first goes over the
>     enque/dequeue
>     logic and then gets into the more complex PI-update Pseudo-code.
>
[BB] We've sort-of done that. Except I wanted to start by highlighting 
that maintaining and applying p is the ultimate point of all this.


>
>     I realize the document *is* trying to do that, but it took
>     me some time to figure out the semantics of alpha/beta/alpha_U/beta_U
>     (these get defined in Figure 1, but a detailed description
>     is only available at the bottom Page 17..)
>
>     What eventally helped me put things in place was the brief background
>     that Bob offered (in the offline thread)
>
>     Bob> A Proportional Integral (PI) algorithm changes the controlled
>     variable (the
>     Bob> loss probability p) dependent on how fast the queue is
>     increasing (which is
>     Bob> Proportional to excess load) and how far any standing queue is
>     Bob> from its target (which represents the Integral of load). Two
>     "gain
>     Bob> factors", beta and alpha, respectively weight how strongly
>     each of
>     Bob> these elements alters p.
>
>     Bob> The stability analysis in [PI216] recommends the values of alpha
>     Bob> and beta (in the header file in Fig 1) on the basis that these
>     Bob> cause the AQM to change p (loss prob) as fast as poss in response
>     Bob> to changes in load without over-compensating and therefore
>     causing
>     Bob> oscillations in the queue.
>
>     Bob> The recommended values of alpha and beta determine how much p
>     ought
>     Bob> to change if it was updated every second. It is best to update p
>     Bob> as frequently as possible, but the actual update interval
>     (Tupdate)
>     Bob> is constrained by hardware performance. For link rates from 4 -
>     Bob> 200 Mb/s, we found Tupdate=16ms is sufficient. Whatever value of
>     Bob> Tupdate is chosen, p should change by the same amount per second,
>     Bob> but in more smaller steps. So the gain factors used need to
>     Bob> be scaled by (Tupdate/1s). This is why alpha_U and beta_U are
>     Bob> used for updating p in Fig 4, where alpha_U= alpha*Tupdate and
>     Bob> beta_U=beta*Tupdate.
>
>     Some/all of this information would be useful to have in the doc, since
>     it provides the needed brief background for dualpi2_update, within
>     the draft itself.
>
>
> I found Bob's note to be very helpful to me. It might be helpful to 
> include something like that text in the document itself.
>
> Do the right thing, of course.
>
> Spencer
>
>     One follow-up question (I've not read all of [PI216] yet, it's on my
>     reading list) - what is the general trend of Tupdate for faster
>     link-rates? E.g., what is the expected Tupdate at 1Gb/s?
>
[BB] Tupdate doesn't depend on the link rate per se {Note 1}.
Tupdate depends on your target Qdelay, which depends on the max e2e RTT.

You want to have a reasonable number of updates (ideally >= 2) in the 
time the queue drains naturally from target to zero. So,
     Tupdate <= target/2
would be a good rule of thumb. But so far we've used Tupdate (16 ms) ~= 
target (15 ms) so I'll continue like that.

So, if your link is in a DC with 100x lower max RTT than the public 
Internet, you might have target = 150 µs
Then Tupdate = 160 µs

If max RTT is 100x smaller, alpha and beta need to be 100x larger; i.e. 
1000 Hz^2 and 10,000 Hz^2 respectively.

Nonetheless, the gain factors actually used internally are:
     alpha_U = alpha * Tupdate
     beta_U  = beta  * Tupdate
So, because Tupdate is 100x smaller, alpha_U and beta_U will be the same 
as before.

Of course, if Tupdate is 100x larger, p is calculated 100x more often.

You might notice that, in a DC where you have say 100x lower RTT and 
100x higher bit-rate than the public Internet, even tho the 
bandwidth-delay product is roughly the same as on the public Internet, 
the switch is forwarding 100x faster and calculating p 100x more often. 
Superficially this looks like 10,000x more processing, but at least the 
process to update p is decoupled from packet forwarding.

We'll write a new scaling section into the next rev of the draft. But 
first I'll check that I'm correct with my co-authors tho.


{Note 1} The Qdelay target depends on the degree of flow multiplexing. 
All the above assumes the low degree of flow multiplexing typical both 
in a public Internet per-customer access link and in 'typical' DCs (i.e. 
1-10 flows). Then you have to configure the AQM for the "typical 
worst-case" when you have 1 TCP flow. For high levels of flow 
multiplexing, target Qdelay can be 1/sqrt(N) smaller, where N is the 
"typical minimum" no. of flows on the link. E.g. for N=100 flows, target 
Qdelay can be 1/10 of the figures above.

"Typical minimum" is deliberately arm-wavey. It might be the 10%-ile or 
something. The implication of setting target too low would be slight 
under-utilization when the number of flows is less than the N you've 
guessed, so it's not critical to be precise.

BTW, this sqrt() is nothing to do with the sqrt() in the TCP equation. 
It comes from the Central Limit Theorem.

BTW2, this 1/sqrt(N) rule doesn't continue indefinitely. The Qdelay 
flattens out for really high N. From memory there's something about a 6 
packet limit, but I'd have to re-read the relevant (very short) paper 
below.
Ganjali, Y. & McKeown, N., "Update on Buffer Sizing in Internet 
Routers," ACM SIGCOMM Computer Communication Review 36 ACM (October 2006)


>
>     It would also be helpful to define the high-level semantics
>     of cq.time(), cq.len(), lq.len() etc. E.g. the description that Bob
>     offered in the offline mail (below) could be added in the preamble
>     to enque/dequeue, to improve readability (and also help an implementor
>     quickly see what the function indirections are supposed to do).
>
>     Bob> cq.time() is a function that returns the time that the head
>     packet
>     Bob> has been in the classic queue (cq), which is called the "service
>     Bob> time" of the queue, or sometimes the "sojourn time".
>
>     Bob> Similarly for lq.time(), cq.len() and lq.len(), where lq is the
>     Bob> L4S queue and len() is the length in bytes.
>
Done.

And thx again for your patience trying to understand this.



Bob


>
>     I'm still working through the doc, will get back here with additional
>     questions/comments.
>
>     Thanks
>     --Sowmini
>
>

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    Sowmini and list,<br>
    <br>
    A week ago we posted a major revision:
    draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02
<br>
    <br>
    It includes all the offline advice you (Sowmini) said would be good
    to have in the doc itself. <br>
    Apologies for the long delay replying, I started a couple of month's
    break between jobs just as we started talking.<br>
    <br>
    [Actually I just noticed the way you quoted it in your email is
    clearer than how we wrote it in the draft, so I have just updated
    our local copy again (will appear on IETF servers in the next rev).]<br>
    <br>
    There's also 2 whole new sections:<br>
    * DualQ Coupled AQM structure (2pp)<br>
    * Management Requirements (Normative) (1p)<br>
    <br>
    The cleaner structure mainly affects the management requirements
    (config and statistics monitoring), which we will present in
    Singapore. <br>
    We now have a modular separation between the three main pluggable
    components:<br>
    * the Base AQM<br>
    * the L4S AQM<br>
    * the framework (classifier, coupling, and conditional priority
    scheduler) [+ policing (TBA)]<br>
    (plus of course the sender CC algorithm is also pluggable)<br>
    <br>
    This structure has been reflected in the Linux implementation (these
    updates are still in the private development version). Thanks to
    Henrik Steen this now makes the 2 queues within the qdisc classful,
    so they inherit all their config and statistics monitoring from the
    qdisc class. This gives operators a regular hierarchical queuing
    structure. Whereas before the dualQ was a monolithic blob that
    didn't fit well within any larger queuing hierarchy.<br>
    <br>
    We also clarified numerous technical aspects that have changed over
    the last year, where the pseudocode has changed, but the text hasn't
    kept up.
<br>
    Particular thanks to you (Sowmini) &amp; Gabi Bracha off-list, who
    were trying to understand it and gave useful review comments.
<br>
    <br>
    Main changes:
<br>
    * Added diagram and description of structure of AQM framework.
<br>
    * Supports a pair of AQMs 'native' to each queue, both time-based. 
<br>
    Examples (in the order: native Classic + native L4S):
<br>
    * DualPI2 = PI2 + shallow step
<br>
    * DualCurvyRED = Curvy RED + shallow step
<br>
    Explained distinction between DualPI2 and PI2 (and PIE).
<br>
     <br>
    Added Management Requirements:
<br>
    * Configuration
<br>
    * Monitoring
<br>
     <br>
    Explained pseudocode much more clearly.
<br>
    * Removed implementation tricks to focus on how it is meant to
    work.
<br>
     <br>
    Curvy RED pseudocode is not as well-maintained.
<br>
    However, we have provided a clear list of all the peripheral aspects
    that would have to be added (all can be translated from DualPI2).
<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Finally, a note about the command line API for DualPI2 (documented
    in the code, not the draft, but we've changed the draft to be
    consistent): <br>
    We decided we had to break backward compatibility with the PIE AP:
    <br>
      - So that parameters could be changed independently <br>
        (when you changed one PIE parameter, you sometimes had to change
    another to keep it unchanged underneath)<br>
      - Some PIE parameters had to be entered in obscure units like 1/16
    of 1 Hz
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Extra responses inline...<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08/08/17 20:34, Spencer Dawkins at
      IETF wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-eZ2jVy_FyUi9NgnEXqNxmgtE2Vjj1+VnT4mtEJ12ynjA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">Speaking as an individual, but as an individual who
        needs to understand what's going on at PubReq time :-) ...
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 9:31 AM,
            Sowmini Varadhan <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I had
              some questions as I was going over this document and<br>
              Bob Briscoe suggested that this might be a useful
              discussion to<br>
              share with a list, so here's a current summary, including<br>
              clarifications that Bob provided for me offline<br>
              <br>
              In general, I liked the fact that the Appendix starts off
              by first<br>
              discussing core concepts and then gets into the more
              complex overload<br>
              case- this makes it easy to understand how the various
              blocks build on<br>
              each other.<br>
              <br>
              In keeping with that same core -&gt; complex flow, it
              might be easier to<br>
              refactor Appendix A.1 a bit, so that it first goes over
              the enque/dequeue<br>
              logic and then gets into the more complex PI-update
              Pseudo-code.<br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] We've sort-of done that. Except I wanted to start by
    highlighting that maintaining and applying p is the ultimate point
    of all this.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-eZ2jVy_FyUi9NgnEXqNxmgtE2Vjj1+VnT4mtEJ12ynjA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              I realize the document *is* trying to do that, but it took<br>
              me some time to figure out the semantics of
              alpha/beta/alpha_U/beta_U<br>
              (these get defined in Figure 1, but a detailed description<br>
              is only available at the bottom Page 17..)<br>
              <br>
              What eventally helped me put things in place was the brief
              background<br>
              that Bob offered (in the offline thread)<br>
              <br>
              Bob&gt; A Proportional Integral (PI) algorithm changes the
              controlled variable (the<br>
              Bob&gt; loss probability p) dependent on how fast the
              queue is increasing (which is<br>
              Bob&gt; Proportional to excess load) and how far any
              standing queue is<br>
              Bob&gt; from its target (which represents the Integral of
              load). Two "gain<br>
              Bob&gt; factors", beta and alpha, respectively weight how
              strongly each of<br>
              Bob&gt; these elements alters p.<br>
              <br>
              Bob&gt; The stability analysis in [PI216] recommends the
              values of alpha<br>
              Bob&gt; and beta (in the header file in Fig 1) on the
              basis that these<br>
              Bob&gt; cause the AQM to change p (loss prob) as fast as
              poss in response<br>
              Bob&gt; to changes in load without over-compensating and
              therefore causing<br>
              Bob&gt; oscillations in the queue.<br>
              <br>
              Bob&gt; The recommended values of alpha and beta determine
              how much p ought<br>
              Bob&gt; to change if it was updated every second. It is
              best to update p<br>
              Bob&gt; as frequently as possible, but the actual update
              interval (Tupdate)<br>
              Bob&gt; is constrained by hardware performance. For link
              rates from 4 -<br>
              Bob&gt; 200 Mb/s, we found Tupdate=16ms is sufficient.
              Whatever value of<br>
              Bob&gt; Tupdate is chosen, p should change by the same
              amount per second,<br>
              Bob&gt; but in more smaller steps. So the gain factors
              used need to<br>
              Bob&gt; be scaled by (Tupdate/1s). This is why alpha_U and
              beta_U are<br>
              Bob&gt; used for updating p in Fig 4, where alpha_U=
              alpha*Tupdate and<br>
              Bob&gt; beta_U=beta*Tupdate.<br>
              <br>
              Some/all of this information would be useful to have in
              the doc, since<br>
              it provides the needed brief background for
              dualpi2_update, within<br>
              the draft itself.<br>
            </blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I found Bob's note to be very helpful to me. It might
              be helpful to include something like that text in the
              document itself.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Do the right thing, of course.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Spencer</div>
            <div> </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">One
              follow-up question (I've not read all of [PI216] yet, it's
              on my<br>
              reading list) - what is the general trend of Tupdate for
              faster<br>
              link-rates? E.g., what is the expected Tupdate at 1Gb/s?<br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] Tupdate doesn't depend on the link rate per se {Note 1}. <br>
    Tupdate depends on your target Qdelay, which depends on the max e2e
    RTT.<br>
    <br>
    You want to have a reasonable number of updates (ideally &gt;= 2) in
    the time the queue drains naturally from target to zero. So,<br>
        Tupdate &lt;= target/2<br>
    would be a good rule of thumb. But so far we've used Tupdate (16 ms)
    ~= target (15 ms) so I'll continue like that.<br>
    <br>
    So, if your link is in a DC with 100x lower max RTT than the public
    Internet, you might have target = 150 µs<br>
    Then Tupdate = 160 µs<br>
    <br>
    If max RTT is 100x smaller, alpha and beta need to be 100x larger;
    i.e. 1000 Hz^2 and 10,000 Hz^2 respectively.<br>
    <br>
    Nonetheless, the gain factors actually used internally are:<br>
        alpha_U = alpha * Tupdate<br>
        beta_U  = beta  * Tupdate<br>
    So, because Tupdate is 100x smaller, alpha_U and beta_U will be the
    same as before.<br>
    <br>
    Of course, if Tupdate is 100x larger, p is calculated 100x more
    often.<br>
    <br>
    You might notice that, in a DC where you have say 100x lower RTT and
    100x higher bit-rate than the public Internet, even tho the
    bandwidth-delay product is roughly the same as on the public
    Internet, the switch is forwarding 100x faster and calculating p
    100x more often. Superficially this looks like 10,000x more
    processing, but at least the process to update p is decoupled from
    packet forwarding.<br>
    <br>
    We'll write a new scaling section into the next rev of the draft.
    But first I'll check that I'm correct with my co-authors tho.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    {Note 1} The Qdelay target depends on the degree of flow
    multiplexing. All the above assumes the low degree of flow
    multiplexing typical both in a public Internet per-customer access
    link and in 'typical' DCs (i.e. 1-10 flows). Then you have to
    configure the AQM for the "typical worst-case" when you have 1 TCP
    flow. For high levels of flow multiplexing, target Qdelay can be
    1/sqrt(N) smaller, where N is the "typical minimum" no. of flows on
    the link. E.g. for N=100 flows, target Qdelay can be 1/10 of the
    figures above. <br>
    <br>
    "Typical minimum" is deliberately arm-wavey. It might be the 10%-ile
    or something. The implication of setting target too low would be
    slight under-utilization when the number of flows is less than the N
    you've guessed, so it's not critical to be precise.<br>
    <br>
    BTW, this sqrt() is nothing to do with the sqrt() in the TCP
    equation. It comes from the Central Limit Theorem. <br>
    <br>
    BTW2, this 1/sqrt(N) rule doesn't continue indefinitely. The Qdelay
    flattens out for really high N. From memory there's something about
    a 6 packet limit, but I'd have to re-read the relevant (very short)
    paper below. <br>
    Ganjali, Y. &amp; McKeown, N., "Update on Buffer Sizing in Internet
    Routers," ACM SIGCOMM Computer Communication Review 36 ACM (October
    2006)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-eZ2jVy_FyUi9NgnEXqNxmgtE2Vjj1+VnT4mtEJ12ynjA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              It would also be helpful to define the high-level
              semantics<br>
              of cq.time(), cq.len(), lq.len() etc. E.g. the description
              that Bob<br>
              offered in the offline mail (below) could be added in the
              preamble<br>
              to enque/dequeue, to improve readability (and also help an
              implementor<br>
              quickly see what the function indirections are supposed to
              do).<br>
              <br>
              Bob&gt; cq.time() is a function that returns the time that
              the head packet<br>
              Bob&gt; has been in the classic queue (cq), which is
              called the "service<br>
              Bob&gt; time" of the queue, or sometimes the "sojourn
              time".<br>
              <br>
              Bob&gt; Similarly for lq.time(), cq.len() and lq.len(),
              where lq is the<br>
              Bob&gt; L4S queue and len() is the length in bytes.<br>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Done.<br>
    <br>
    And thx again for your patience trying to understand this.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-eZ2jVy_FyUi9NgnEXqNxmgtE2Vjj1+VnT4mtEJ12ynjA@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <br>
              I'm still working through the doc, will get back here with
              additional<br>
              questions/comments.<br>
              <br>
              Thanks<br>
              <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">--Sowmini<br>
                  <br>
                </font></span></blockquote>
          </div>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/kE7q115fU3Iv0lNal7391peJP-0>
Subject: [tsvwg] L4S drafts updated: ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch & ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
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tsvwg,

We have updated these to:
draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01 & draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01

As explained in Jul'17, these are both in a holding pattern, waiting for 
implementation experience and review.

*Deltas**
*
Refreshed to keep them live.
Minor improvements, and updates.

*Plans
*(my personal thoughts, without having waited for co-authors' views)

l4s-arch:
* explain how L4S and Diffserv fit together.
* add policing details

l4s-id:
* Add guidance on running an L4S experiment, e.g.:
   - management requirements (config, stats gathering)
   - both for network and end-hosts
   - perhaps instrumentation both on participating and non-participating 
nodes

Cheers


Bob

--------------C5B8750AE3F4D0B4E4E1A5F7
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    tsvwg,<br>
    <br>
    We have updated these to:<br>
    draft-ietf-tsvwg-l4s-arch-01 &amp; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-01 <br>
     <br>
    As explained in Jul'17, these are both in a holding pattern, waiting
    for implementation experience and review. <br>
    <br>
    <b>Deltas</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    Refreshed to keep them live. <br>
    Minor improvements, and updates. <br>
    <br>
    <b>Plans<br>
    </b>(my personal thoughts, without having waited for co-authors'
    views)<br>
    <br>
    l4s-arch: <br>
    * explain how L4S and Diffserv fit together.<br>
    * add policing details<br>
    <br>
    l4s-id:<br>
    * Add guidance on running an L4S experiment, e.g.: <br>
      - management requirements (config, stats gathering)<br>
      - both for network and end-hosts<br>
      - perhaps instrumentation both on participating and
    non-participating nodes<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
  </body>
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--------------C5B8750AE3F4D0B4E4E1A5F7--


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To: Bob Briscoe <B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com>
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From nobody Tue Nov  7 08:30:47 2017
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From: Sowmini Varadhan <sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com>
To: Bob Briscoe <B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com>
Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, Spencer DAWKINS <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments about draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-01.txt
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On (11/04/17 17:02), Bob Briscoe wrote:
>    Sowmini and list,
> 
>    A week ago we posted a major revision:
>    draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-02
> 

Thanks for incorporating the suggestions- I'm happy with the new
version. I esp like the new format of Section 2.4 and Figure 1.

--Sowmini


From nobody Tue Nov  7 10:38:27 2017
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] M.RE: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
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David,

On 07/11/17 02:56, Black, David wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> First of all, thanks for the response, as it represents visible 
> progress.  I’m copying message thread text for only the 5 topics where 
> we have a disagreement. TL;DR summary:
>
> [A] This is an editorial nit – I suggest letting this one go.
>
[BB] OK
>
> [B] It looks like we mostly agree on the goal – I need to send you 
> some detailed text to capture that offline.
>
[BB] The intended scope of this new section is still stated in 2 
contradictory ways. We're resolving that offlist.
>
> [C] Open issue, but seems relatively minor – let’s continue discussion 
> here towards resolving this.
>
[BB] My concern with this bullet is that it tries to stop a behaviour 
that you think people might believe was implied by RFC3168, without 
describing this hypothetical behaviour that probably no-one had thought 
of doing anyway.

> [D] I’m ok with the request (don’t delete a paragraph from RFC 3168), 
> but to balance out [B] ;-), you need to send me some detailed text, as 
> the paragraph cannot remain as-is.
>
[BB] OK, I see now that para 2 doesn't stand alone if solely para 1 is 
deleted. I'll provide suggested text (initially off list).

> [E] There’s a small word change that might resolve this issue, 
> otherwise, the underlying concern with the ABE draft will need to be 
> worked out at the TCPM meeting in Singapore.
>
[BB] I'm OK with the small word change, which I thought had been 
requested during the IESG review anyway. But once you make the small 
word change, the rest of the sentence doesn't make sense, which is what 
I was trying to fix.

> Spencer – item [E] suggests that there may not be a revised -08 
> version of this draft until after TCPM meeting in Singapore.
>
Like you, I'm travelling on Thu. So I think we should be able to get 
this fixed so you can post -08 before/during Singapore.

Cheers



Bob


> --[A]--
>
> *2. ECN Experimentation: Overview*
>
> *Congestion Response Differences:
> *CURRENT
>
>        the proposal in the latter draft
>        couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
>        Marking Differences changes
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>        the proposal in the latter draft
>        couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion
>        marking in the network
>
> RATIONALE:
> I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found hard 
> parse because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a heading verbatim.
>
> */[David>I see the concern: “changes” -> “functionality” should better 
> disambiguate this./*
>
> [BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What about just deleting "changes"?
>
> David> I think the capitalization sorts out this entirely editorial 
> concern.
>
> --[B]--
>
> *2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols
> *
> This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be clearer 
> though, perhaps:
>     "Considerations for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"
>
> */[David>] This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network Considerations for 
> ECN Experimentation” and then make “not involved” clearer in the body 
> of the section./*
>
> [BB] Having read your responses below about each guideline in this 
> section, I now remember that, as a convenience to developers of 
> network equipment, you intended to collect together those aspects that 
> affect them.
>
> The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So if that's 
> what you intend, they need to say that.
>
> I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue Hares's | 
> your} concern that trill-ecn-support required expertise to write in a 
> way that navigated around the experiments. That led to the idea that 
> we should codify that expertise into this process draft in case 
> someone wants to introduce another new protocol that interacts with 
> ECN while the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol design 
> guidance is only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped.
>
> David> The motivation is more about protocol design guidance, e.g., 
> for the trill-ecn-support draft, than about network equipment 
> implementation guidance.   I think we’re mostly aligned, as I agree in 
> principle with the final paragraph quoted above.  Let me see if I can 
> work out some text off-line directly with you.
>
> --[C]--
>
>     3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the
>         packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
>         not the case for Congestion Marking
>         Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
> */[David>] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the scope 
> to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the network 
> that forward CE packets. /*
> */RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are 
> drop-equivalent and hence are ok to drop in the network if it would be 
> inconvenient to forward them. /*
> */That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward” as 
> justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement./*
>
> [BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd written any implication that 
> it's more OK to drop CE packets than others. Where does any RFC say 
> that? This is not written in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares 
> this presumption.
>
> David> Well, here’s RFC 3168, section 6.1.2 on TCP Sender behavior: 
> “The indication of congestion should be treated just as a congestion 
> loss in non-ECN-Capable TCP.”  While that was written as a lower-case 
> “should” in RFC 3168, in practice, it was treated as an upper case 
> “MUST” in implementations at the time.  My concern that it’s a short 
> mental distance from there to thinking that it’s ok to drop CE packets 
> because the transport protocol reaction will be the same.  The warning 
> that CE is not drop equivalent is intended to stop that sort of 
> “slippery slope” thinking.
>
> --[D] --
>
> 2.4
>
> David> This is actually in Section 3, not 2.4.
>
> RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of S.20.2, which is a good 
> alternative to the ECN nonce.
> In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from Appendix 
> C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
> instead of using the expired individual draft 
> draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat
>
> */[David>] Hmm – I think that 2^nd paragraph does have to come out.   
> I suggest either referencing RFC 3168 as originally published, and/or 
> copying that text into the l4s-id draft with attribution of source./*
>
> [BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para is about the sender 
> introducing CE randomly as an alternative to the nonce. We want to 
> keep that approach - it's useful.
>
> David> I’m willing to keep some form of the text, but the paragraph in 
> its current form refers to the ECN nonce, all mention of which is 
> being removed from RFC 3168.
>
> **Please send me (off-list) the **precise** text that you want to use 
> to turn this into a stand-alone paragraph that does not refer to the 
> ECN nonce.**
>
> --[E] --
>
> *4.1 Congestion Response Differences*
>
> CURRENT:
>
>       Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a
>     higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network
>     bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates
>     congestion [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>].
>
> SUGGESTED:
>
>       Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that
>     there will not be an excessively long queue at the network
>     bottleneck node, [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>]
>     whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of
>     a queue.
>
> RATIONALE:
> A drop could be from:
> * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs do not 
> define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same length as if a 
> CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with equivalence of CE and drop).
> * a rate policer that has no queue at all.
>
> */[David>] That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood” language. No 
> change needed here./*
>
>
> [BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.
>
> I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is it a high chance of 
> shorter queue, or higher chance of a short queue?"
> It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not necessarily a 
> short*er* queue.
>
> David>  I’m willing to change “shorter” to “short” if that resolves 
> this issue.
>
> David> Otherwise, we have a problem with this text in the abstract of 
> the TCPM ABE draft (draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03):
>
>    An Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
>
>    signal indicates that an AQM mechanism is used at the bottleneck, and
>
>    therefore the bottleneck network queue is likely to be short.
>
> David> See the last paragraph in section 2 of that draft for 
> supporting discussion.
>
> David> I also see a number of problems with the attempt to prove 
> “certainty” of a short queue but I’ll save them for the TCPM meeting 
> in Singapore, which is where this issue should be dealt with if the 
> assertion is that the above statement from the AQM draft is erroneous.
>
> Thanks, --David
>
> *From:*Bob Briscoe [mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 3, 2017 8:38 PM
> *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
> *Cc:* tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: 
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
> David,
>
> No comment = agreement.
> Otherwise, see responses inline...
>
> And you have my continuing gratitude that you're in the firing line on 
> this one, not me.
>
> On 03/11/17 13:43, Black, David wrote:
>
>     Bob,
>
>     Many thanks for giving this a careful review.  A -08 version is
>     now needed – expect that to be posted sometime during the
>     Singapore meeting week.
>
>     Comments inline …
>
>     Thanks, --David
>
>     *From:*Bob Briscoe [mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com]
>     *Sent:* Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:36 PM
>     *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com> <mailto:david.black@emc.com>
>     *Cc:* tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org> <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
>     draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
>     David,
>
>     Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the hurdles
>     necessary to get this through the IESG.
>
>     As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text changes that
>     this needs another sanity review.
>     I have checked through the diff and noticed the following.
>
>     Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are editorial nits.
>     Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant changes, but
>     they are still not changing the intent of what you typed.
>
>
>     *2. ECN Experimentation: Overview
>     *
>     *Congestion Response Differences:
>     *CURRENT
>
>            the proposal in the latter draft
>
>            couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
>
>            Marking Differences changes
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>            the proposal in the latter draft
>
>            couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion
>
>            marking in the network
>
>     RATIONALE:
>     I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found hard
>     parse because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a heading
>     verbatim.
>
>     */[David>I see the concern: “changes” -> “functionality” should
>     better disambiguate this./*
>
> [BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What about just deleting "changes"?
>
>
>
>     Current:
>         This is at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
>     SUGGESTED:
>         These are at variance with RFC 3168's requirement
>     Rationale: There are 2 changes.
>
>     */[David>] ACK: “This” -> “These changes”/*
>
>
>     *Congestion Marking Differences:
>     *CURRENT:
>         is required for any sender congestion response used in this
>     area of experimentation
>     SUGGESTED:
>         is required for any differences in congestion marking or
>     response used in this area of experimentation
>
>     */[David>] Ok, original text was courtesy of sender congestion
>     response being the focus in discussion./*
>
>
>     *2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols
>     *
>     This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be clearer
>     though, perhaps:
>         "Considerations for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"
>
>     */[David>] This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network Considerations
>     for ECN Experimentation” and then make “not involved” clearer in
>     the body of the section./*
>
> [BB] Having read your responses below about each guideline in this 
> section, I now remember that, as a convenience to developers of 
> network equipment, you intended to collect together those aspects that 
> affect them.
>
> The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So if that's 
> what you intend, they need to say that.
>
> I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue Hares's | 
> your} concern that trill-ecn-support required expertise to write in a 
> way that navigated around the experiments. That led to the idea that 
> we should codify that expertise into this process draft in case 
> someone wants to introduce another new protocol that interacts with 
> ECN while the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol design 
> guidance is only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped.
>
> Whatever, I don't want to hold up this draft, so pls go ahead. We just 
> have to tick the boxes...
>
>
>
>
>     The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of the context
>     of the rest of the doc. So I suggest that each bullet reminds the
>     reader that the subject is "implementations not involved in
>     experiments". Also some bullets are in the passive without a clear
>     statement of what type of node the bullet applies to, which makes
>     this problem worse.
>
>     */[David>] Taking a fresh look at the list, bullets #4 and #5 seem
>     to be different in scope and level of emphasis from the first 3.  
>     I’ll move #4 and #5 to stand-alone paragraphs, so that “not
>     involved in experiments” can then be in the lead-in text that
>     covers the first 3 bullets./*
>
> [BB] OK
>
>
>
>     Items #2 & #3 are troubling for three further reasons:
>     a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not cause ECN
>     and drop to no longer be equivalent.
>     b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it uses ECT(0).
>     c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate ECT(1).
>
>     Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1), contradicts
>     item #3. So I've suggested you reverse the order and edit as follows:
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>         2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the
>
>             packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
>
>             not the case for either Congestion Response Differences
>
>             experiments (seeSection 4.1
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1>  below) or Congestion Marking
>
>             Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
>
>         3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified
>
>             inSection 4.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below.
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate
>
>             traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified
>
>             in Section 4.2 below.
>
>     */[David>] It’s more than hosts, as routers can originate traffic
>     for purposes such as control and management./*
>
> [BB] 'A node not involved in experiments' would be fine. My main 
> concern was to add the 'not involved in experiments' phrase.
>
>
>
>         3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the
>
>             packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is
>
>             not the case for Congestion Marking
>
>             Differences experiments (seeSection 4.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2>  below).
>
>     */[David>] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the
>     scope to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the
>     network that forward CE packets. /*
>
>     */RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are
>     drop-equivalent implies and hence are ok to drop in the network if
>     it would be inconvenient to forward them. /*
>
>     */That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward”
>     as justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement./*
>
> [BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd written any implication that 
> it's more OK to drop CE packets than others. Where does any RFC say 
> that? This is not written in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares 
> this presumption.
>
> If I am right that dropping CE packets is not a valid case, is there 
> any other action of a network node for which Guideline #2 is correct?
>
> It's not true for marking. Because network nodes not involved in an 
> experiment mark ECT(0) and ECT(1) as equivalent to drop (as per 
> Section 4.2).
>
> it /is/ true wrt the congestion response to markings of a sender 
> involved in experiments. But you want this section to be about network 
> nodes. So I cannot think of another network-based action for which 
> guideline#2 is applicable.
>
>
>
>
>     Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running
>     experiments, but without saying so...
>
>     */[David>] Not exactly, this is more about middleboxes that
>     believe they are all-knowing about what protocols like TCP and RTP
>     do, and hence drop packets that use ECN where it’s not supposed to
>     be used. Complaints about bad middlebox behavior should be sent to
>     /dev/null, please.  However …/*
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>         4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used
>
>             previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
>
>             seeSection 4.3
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
>
>             middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
>
>             inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
>
>             encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not
>
>             use ECN.
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used
>
>             previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,
>
>             seeSection 4.3
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3>  below, and in particular its new requirements for
>
>             middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that
>
>             inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to
>
>             encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.
>
>     */[David>] That helps, I will make that change./*
>
>
>     Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change (or not)
>     about tunnelling.
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>         5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel
>
>             encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>].
>
>             Additional related guidance can be found in
>
>             [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>] and
>
>             [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes
>
>             encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [RFC6040 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040>],
>
>             which is in the process of being updated by
>
>             [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim>].
>
>             Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in
>
>             [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines>].
>
>             It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without
>
>             changing these existing encapsulation behaviors.
>
>     */[David>] Yes, and in particular, the last sentence is definitely
>     a useful addition.  I will pick this up, with some editing./*
>
>
>     *2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations
>     *
>     I like this a lot too. But a nit:
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>     the questions inAppendix A
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>     the questions inAppendix A
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A>  of RFC 5706
>
>     */[David>] ACK, will do./*
>
>
>     2.4
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>         The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce
>
>         functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce
>
>         functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to
>
>     RATIONALE:
>     Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's confusing here to
>     say it is used.
>
>     */[David>] Will do, with “assigns” -> “assigned”/*
>
>
>
>     CURRENT:
>
>         4.  Remove the first two paragraphs ofSection 20.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
>
>             the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
>
>             ofSection 20.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth
>
>             ECN codepoint.
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         4.  Remove the first paragraph ofSection 20.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discuss
>
>             the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest
>
>             ofSection 20.2
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth
>
>             ECN codepoint.
>
>     RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of S.20.2, which is a
>     good alternative to the ECN nonce.
>     In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from
>     Appendix C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
>     instead of using the expired individual draft
>     draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat
>
>     */[David>] Hmm – I think that 2^nd paragraph does have to come
>     out.   I suggest either referencing RFC 3168 as originally
>     published, and/or copying that text into the l4s-id draft with
>     attribution of source./*
>
> [BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para is about the sender 
> introducing CE randomly as an alternative to the nonce. We want to 
> keep that approach - it's useful.
>
> Perhaps you are concerned that the last sentence says random CE would 
> be less effective than the nonce.
>
> But it's OK to say that; it's actually true. Saying that doesn't 
> undermine our decision to obsolete the nonce, which we justified on 
> wider considerations than just effectiveness:
> a) burning a codepoint for improved effectiveness isn't considered 
> worthwhile any more
> b) particularly because the nonce wasn't deployed.
>
>
>
>
>     (Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).
>
>     */[David>] ACK/*
>
>
>
>     *4.1 Congestion Response Differences
>     *
>     CURRENT:
>
>           Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a
>
>         higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network
>
>         bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates
>
>         congestion [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>].
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>           Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that
>
>         there will not be an excessively long queue at the network
>
>         bottleneck node, [I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn>]
>
>         whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of
>
>         a queue.
>
>     RATIONALE:
>     A drop could be from:
>     * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs do
>     not define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same length
>     as if a CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with equivalence of CE
>     and drop).
>     * a rate policer that has no queue at all.
>
>     */[David>] That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood” language. 
>     No change needed here./*
>
>
> [BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.
> I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is it a high chance of 
> shorter queue, or higher chance of a short queue?"
> It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not necessarily a 
> short*er* queue.
>
> Firstly a picky point; ABE doesn't know if it's "a packet drop that 
> indicates congestion".
> But my argument is much bigger than that. I'll state it more precisely...
>
> Consider ABE experiences an ECN-mark, which must be from an 
> ECN-capable AQM.
> I'll define the queue length in this case as Qe
>
> Now compare with the queue lengths in these 4 cases where the same 
> ECN-capable packet from ABE experiences a drop instead:
> Qe = Qa : drop from non-ECN AQM
> Qe < Qb : tail drop
> Qe > Qc : drop from a rate policer
> Qe >or< Qd : drop due to corruption
>
> So, in no way does CE communicate that there is a higher likelihood 
> that Qe is shorter in comparison to the queue had the ECN-mark been a 
> drop (Qa, Qb, Qc or Qd).
>
> Something along the lines of the alternative phrasing I suggested 
> previously would be sufficient to justify ABE, without being incorrect.
>
>
>
>
>     *4.2 Congestion Marking Differences
>     *
>     CURRENT:
>
>         Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
>
>         identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
>
>         this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
>
>         codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
>
>         that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-
>
>         approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as
>
>         proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].
>
>     SUGGESTED:
>
>         Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of
>
>         identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence
>
>         this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)
>
>         codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network
>
>         that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by
>
>         use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks
>
>         at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id>].
>
>     RATIONALE:
>     Splits v long sentence.
>
>     */[David>] Ok, but use of “would” is too weak – I will split
>     sentence and make it clear that the different congestion response
>     is necessary./*
>
> [BB] Fine.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     Bob
>
>
>     On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David wrote:
>
>         Hi Spencer,
>
>         Well, I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his Discuss
>         with a simple note of thanks and no further text change requests.
>
>         I’ve checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to me,
>         and I concur with your assumption that the RFC Editor will fix
>         the “primary” -> “primarily” problem.
>
>         I believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with this -07
>         version, but I suggest giving him an opportunity to
>         double-check before pushing the approve-for-publication button.
>
>         And yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this stage in
>         the process.
>
>         Thanks, --David
>
>         *From:*Spencer Dawkins at IETF
>         [mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com]
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM
>         *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
>         <mailto:david.black@emc.com>
>         *Cc:* tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>         *Subject:* Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
>         draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>
>         Hi, David,
>
>         On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Black, David
>         <David.Black@dell.com <mailto:David.Black@dell.com>> wrote:
>
>             This draft contains changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.
>
>             See the change history for a summary of what's been done,
>             including the addition of sections 2.2 and 2.3 and
>             movement of section 4.4 on the requirement for effective
>             congestion control to section 2.1
>
>             Thanks, --David
>
>         Hi, David,
>
>         I see that Benoit has cleared his Discuss based on -07, but
>         remember that you mentioned kinda expecting that a -08 might
>         be required, just based on the amount of new text that was
>         added in -07.
>
>         Does it still seem that way to you (and, of course, to your
>         document shepherd)?
>
>         I did see one typo in the new text,
>
>         "transition from current ECN functionality falls primary upon"
>         should probably be
>
>         "transition from current ECN functionality falls primarily upon"
>
>         but that's easily fixed in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't
>         need to submit an updated draft.
>
>         Just let me know!
>
>         And thanks for horsing that through.
>
>         Spencer
>
>             > -----Original Message-----
>             > From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org
>             <mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of
>             > internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>             > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46 PM
>             > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>             > Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
>             > Subject: I-D Action:
>             draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>             >
>             >
>             > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
>             Internet-Drafts directories.
>             > This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working
>             Group WG of the
>             > IETF.
>             >
>             >         Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on
>             Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
>             > Experimentation
>             >         Author          : David Black
>             >       Filename        :
>             draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt
>             >       Pages           : 21
>             >       Date            : 2017-10-20
>             >
>             > Abstract:
>             >    This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit
>             Congestion
>             >    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops
>             for indicating
>             >    network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes
>             restrictions in RFC 3168
>             >    that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond
>             just removal of
>             >    loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of
>             experimentation
>             >    and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in
>             these areas.  An
>             >    Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is
>             required to take
>             >    advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In
>             addition, this memo
>             >    makes related updates to the ECN specifications for
>             RTP in RFC 6679
>             >    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622. 
>             This memo also
>             >    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in
>             RFC 3540, and
>             >    provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC
>             3540 as Historic;
>             >    this reclassification enables new experimental use of
>             the ECT(1)
>             >    codepoint.
>             >
>             >
>             > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>             >
>             https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
>             >
>             > There are also htmlized versions available at:
>             >
>             https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07
>             > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-
>             > experimentation-07
>             >
>             > A diff from the previous version is available at:
>             >
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>             >
>             >
>             > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from
>             the time of submission
>             > until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>             tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.
>             >
>             > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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    David,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/11/17 02:56, Black, David wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"
            moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">Bob,<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">First
            of all, thanks for the response, as it represents visible
            progress.  I’m copying message thread text for only the 5
            topics where we have a disagreement. TL;DR summary:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">[A]
            This is an editorial nit – I suggest letting this one go.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] OK<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">[B]
            It looks like we mostly agree on the goal – I need to send
            you some detailed text to capture that offline.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] The intended scope of this new section is still stated in 2
    contradictory ways. We're resolving that offlist.<br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">[C]
            Open issue, but seems relatively minor – let’s continue
            discussion here towards resolving this.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] My concern with this bullet is that it tries to stop a
    behaviour that you think people might believe was implied by
    RFC3168, without describing this hypothetical behaviour that
    probably no-one had thought of doing anyway.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">[D]
            I’m ok with the request (don’t delete a paragraph from RFC
            3168), but to balance out [B] ;-), you need to send me some
            detailed text, as the paragraph cannot remain as-is.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] OK, I see now that para 2 doesn't stand alone if solely para 1
    is deleted. I'll provide suggested text (initially off list).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">[E]
            There’s a small word change that might resolve this issue,
            otherwise, the underlying concern with the ABE draft will
            need to be worked out at the TCPM meeting in Singapore.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    [BB] I'm OK with the small word change, which I thought had been
    requested during the IESG review anyway. But once you make the small
    word change, the rest of the sentence doesn't make sense, which is
    what I was trying to fix.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">Spencer
            – item [E] suggests that there may not be a revised -08
            version of this draft until after TCPM meeting in Singapore.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Like you, I'm travelling on Thu. So I think we should be able to get
    this fixed so you can post -08 before/during Singapore.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3CB42@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">--[A]--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b>2. ECN Experimentation: Overview</b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Congestion Response Differences:<br>
          </b>CURRENT<o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>      couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>      Marking Differences changes<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>      couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>      marking in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
          I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG found
          hard parse because it is a tautology resulting from quoting a
          heading verbatim.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;I
                see the concern: “changes” -&gt; “functionality” should
                better disambiguate this.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What
          about just deleting "changes"?<br>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            I think the capitalization sorts out this entirely editorial
            concern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">--[B]--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b>2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols<br>
          </b><br>
          This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be
          clearer though, perhaps:<br>
          <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    "Considerations for
              Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"</span></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network Considerations
                for ECN Experimentation” and then make “not involved”
                clearer in the body of the section.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Having read your responses below about
          each guideline in this section, I now remember that, as a
          convenience to developers of network equipment, you intended
          to collect together those aspects that affect them.<br>
          <br>
          The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So
          if that's what you intend, they need to say that.<br>
          <br>
          I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue
          Hares's | your} concern that trill-ecn-support required
          expertise to write in a way that navigated around the
          experiments. That led to the idea that we should codify that
          expertise into this process draft in case someone wants to
          introduce another new protocol that interacts with ECN while
          the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol design
          guidance is only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            The motivation is more about protocol design guidance, e.g.,
            for the trill-ecn-support draft, than about network
            equipment implementation guidance.   I think we’re mostly
            aligned, as I agree in principle with the final paragraph
            quoted above.  Let me see if I can work out some text
            off-line directly with you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">--[C]--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <pre>   3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>       not the case for Congestion Marking<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below).<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the scope to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the network that forward CE packets.  </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are drop-equivalent and hence are ok to drop in the network if it would be inconvenient to forward them.  </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward” as justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd
          written any implication that it's more OK to drop CE packets
          than others. Where does any RFC say that? This is not written
          in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares this presumption.
          <br>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            Well, here’s RFC 3168, section 6.1.2 on TCP Sender behavior:
            “The indication of congestion should be treated just as a
            congestion loss in non-ECN-Capable TCP.”  While that was
            written as a lower-case “should” in RFC 3168, in practice,
            it was treated as an upper case “MUST” in implementations at
            the time.  My concern that it’s a short mental distance from
            there to thinking that it’s ok to drop CE packets because
            the transport protocol reaction will be the same.  The
            warning that CE is not drop equivalent is intended to stop
            that sort of “slippery slope” thinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">--[D]
            --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">2.4
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            This is actually in Section 3, not 2.4.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd para of
          S.20.2, which is a good alternative to the ECN nonce.
          <br>
          In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it from
          Appendix C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id<br>
          instead of using the expired individual draft
          draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                Hmm – I think that 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph does have to
                come out.   I suggest either referencing RFC 3168 as
                originally published, and/or copying that text into the
                l4s-id draft with attribution of source.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para is
          about the sender introducing CE randomly as an alternative to
          the nonce. We want to keep that approach - it's useful.<br>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            I’m willing to keep some form of the text, but the paragraph
            in its current form refers to the ECN nonce, all mention of
            which is being removed from RFC 3168. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">**Please
            send me (off-list) the *<b>precise</b>* text that you want
            to use to turn this into a stand-alone paragraph that does
            not refer to the ECN nonce.**<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">--[E] --<br>
          <br>
          <b>4.1 Congestion Response Differences<o:p></o:p></b></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   congestion [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   there will not be an excessively long queue at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   bottleneck node, [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <pre>   a queue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
          A drop could be from:<br>
          * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS AQMs
          do not define ECN support). Then the queue would be the same
          length as if a CE mark had been emitted (ABE works with
          equivalence of CE and drop).
          <br>
          * a rate policer that has no queue at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood” language. 
                No change needed here.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          [BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is
          it a high chance of shorter queue, or higher chance of a short
          queue?"<br>
          It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not
          necessarily a short*er* queue.<br>
          <br>
          <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
             I’m willing to change “shorter” to “short” if that resolves
            this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            Otherwise, we have a problem with this text in the abstract
            of the TCPM ABE draft
            (draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">   An Explicit Congestion
            Notification (ECN)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">   signal indicates that an AQM
            mechanism is used at the bottleneck, and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext">   therefore the bottleneck
            network queue is likely to be short.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            See the last paragraph in section 2 of that draft for
            supporting discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">David&gt;
            I also see a number of problems with the attempt to prove
            “certainty” of a short queue but I’ll save them for the TCPM
            meeting in Singapore, which is where this issue should be
            dealt with if the assertion is that the above statement from
            the AQM draft is erroneous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300">Thanks,
              --David<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#003300"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                  Bob Briscoe
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com">mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com</a>]
                  <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 3, 2017 8:38 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Black, David <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> tsvwg IETF list <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org">&lt;tsvwg@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">David,<br>
            <br>
            No comment = agreement.<br>
            Otherwise, see responses inline...<br>
            <br>
            And you have my continuing gratitude that you're in the
            firing line on this one, not me.<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 03/11/17 13:43, Black, David wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Bob,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Many
                thanks for giving this a careful review.  A -08 version
                is now needed – expect that to be posted sometime during
                the Singapore meeting week.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Comments
                inline …</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">Thanks,
                  --David</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <div>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                      Bob Briscoe [</span><a
                      href="mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 2, 2017 1:36 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Black, David </span><a
                      href="mailto:david.black@emc.com"
                      moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> tsvwg IETF list </span><a
                      href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                        style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;tsvwg@ietf.org&gt;</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                      draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">David,<br>
                <br>
                Thank you very much for continuing to jump all the
                hurdles necessary to get this through the IESG.<br>
                <br>
                As Spencer suggests, there have been sufficient text
                changes that this needs another sanity review.<br>
                I have checked through the diff and noticed the
                following. <br>
                <br>
                Outside the new section 2.2, all the changes are
                editorial nits. <br>
                Within S.2.2, I've suggested some more significant
                changes, but they are still not changing the intent of
                what you typed.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <b>2. ECN Experimentation: Overview<br>
                </b><br>
                <b>Congestion Response Differences:<br>
                </b>CURRENT<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>      couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>      Marking Differences changes<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>      the proposal in the latter draft<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>      couples the difference in congestion response at the sender to different congestion<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>      marking in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
                I believe "...Differences changes..." was what the IESG
                found hard parse because it is a tautology resulting
                from quoting a heading verbatim.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;I
                      see the concern: “changes” -&gt; “functionality”
                      should better disambiguate this.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Nah, still as hard to parse. What
            about just deleting "changes"?<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                Current:<br>
                <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    This is at
                    variance with RFC 3168's requirement</span></tt><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                  New&quot;"><br>
                </span>SUGGESTED:<br>
                <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    These are at
                    variance with RFC 3168's requirement</span></tt><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                  New&quot;"><br>
                </span>Rationale: There are 2 changes.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      ACK: “This” -&gt; “These changes”</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <b>Congestion Marking Differences:<br>
                </b>CURRENT:<br>
                <span class="insert"><span
                    style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;">    is required for any sender congestion
                    response used in this area of experimentation</span></span><span
                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                  New&quot;"><br>
                </span>SUGGESTED:<br>
                <span class="insert"><span
                    style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;">    is required for any differences in
                    congestion marking or response used in this area of
                    experimentation</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Ok, original text was courtesy of sender
                      congestion response being the focus in discussion.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <b>2.2.  Considerations for Other Protocols<br>
                </b><br>
                This new section is /very/ useful. The heading could be
                clearer though, perhaps:<br>
                <tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt">    "Considerations
                    for Nodes Not Involved in ECN Experiments"</span></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      This is getting wordy.  Perhaps “Network
                      Considerations for ECN Experimentation” and then
                      make “not involved” clearer in the body of the
                      section.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Having read your responses below
            about each guideline in this section, I now remember that,
            as a convenience to developers of network equipment, you
            intended to collect together those aspects that affect them.<br>
            <br>
            The section heading and introductory para don't say that. So
            if that's what you intend, they need to say that.<br>
            <br>
            I think the desire for this section was triggered by {Sue
            Hares's | your} concern that trill-ecn-support required
            expertise to write in a way that navigated around the
            experiments. That led to the idea that we should codify that
            expertise into this process draft in case someone wants to
            introduce another new protocol that interacts with ECN while
            the experiments are in progress. Hmmm. IMO, protocol design
            guidance is only worthwhile when it's very narrowly scoped.
            <br>
            <br>
            Whatever, I don't want to hold up this draft, so pls go
            ahead. We just have to tick the boxes...<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                The context of the first 3 bullets is the opposite of
                the context of the rest of the doc. So I suggest that
                each bullet reminds the reader that the subject is
                "implementations not involved in experiments". Also some
                bullets are in the passive without a clear statement of
                what type of node the bullet applies to, which makes
                this problem worse.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Taking a fresh look at the list, bullets #4 and #5
                      seem to be different in scope and level of
                      emphasis from the first 3.   I’ll move #4 and #5
                      to stand-alone paragraphs, so that “not involved
                      in experiments” can then be in the lead-in text
                      that covers the first 3 bullets.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] OK<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                Items #2 &amp; #3 are troubling for three further
                reasons:<br>
                a) Congestion Response Differences experiments will not
                cause ECN and drop to no longer be equivalent.<br>
                b) The sender can still rely on this equivalence if it
                uses ECT(0).<br>
                c) Item #3 reads like nothing at all MUST originate
                ECT(1).<br>
                <br>
                Any simple attempt to focus item #2 only on ECT(1),
                contradicts item #3. So I've suggested you reverse the
                order and edit as follows:<br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   2.  The ECN CE codepoint SHOULD NOT be assumed to indicate that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       not the case for either Congestion Response Differences<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.1" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.1</a> below) or Congestion Marking<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below).<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   3.  Traffic marked with ECT(1) MUST NOT be originated, as specified<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   2.  A host not involved in experiments MUST NOT originate<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       traffic marked with ECT(1), as specified<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       in Section 4.2 below.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] It’s more than hosts, as routers can originate traffic for purposes such as control and management.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] 'A node not involved in experiments'
            would be fine. My main concern was to add the 'not involved
            in experiments' phrase.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <pre>   3.  If a host does send packets as ECT(1), it SHOULD NOT assume that the ECN CE codepoint indicates that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       packet would have been dropped if ECN were not in use, as that is<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       not the case for Congestion Marking<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       Differences experiments (see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.2</a> below).<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] This proposed change is actually wrong in limiting the scope to hosts, as the more valuable guidance is to nodes in the network that forward CE packets.  </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">RFC 3168 encourages the presumption that CE packets are drop-equivalent implies and hence are ok to drop in the network if it would be inconvenient to forward them.  </span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">That’s now a bad idea (need more than “inconvenient to forward” as justification for dropping), hence the “SHOULD NOT” statement.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Oh. I didn't read into what you'd
            written any implication that it's more OK to drop CE packets
            than others. Where does any RFC say that? This is not
            written in RFC3168, and I'm not sure anyone shares this
            presumption.
            <br>
            <br>
            If I am right that dropping CE packets is not a valid case,
            is there any other action of a network node for which
            Guideline #2 is correct?<br>
            <br>
            It's not true for marking. Because network nodes not
            involved in an experiment mark ECT(0) and ECT(1) as
            equivalent to drop (as per Section 4.2).
            <br>
            <br>
            it /is/ true wrt the congestion response to markings of a
            sender involved in experiments. But you want this section to
            be about network nodes. So I cannot think of another
            network-based action for which guideline#2 is applicable.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                Next, the subject of item #4 switches to nodes running
                experiments, but without saying so...<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Not exactly, this is more about middleboxes that
                      believe they are all-knowing about what protocols
                      like TCP and RTP do, and hence drop packets that
                      use ECN where it’s not supposed to be used.
                      Complaints about bad middlebox behavior should be
                      sent to /dev/null, please.  However …</span></i></b><br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   4.  ECN may now be used on packets where it has not been used<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       encounter ECN usage on packets and traffic that currently do not<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       use ECN.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   4.  ECN experiments may use ECN on packets where it has not been used<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       previously, specifically TCP control packets and retransmissions,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       see <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-4.3" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 4.3</a> below, and in particular its new requirements for<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       middlebox behavior.  In general, any system or protocol that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       inspects or monitors network traffic SHOULD be prepared to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       encounter ECN usage on packets that currently do not use ECN.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] That helps, I will make that change.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                Item #5 doesn't say what the experiments might change
                (or not) about tunnelling.<br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       encapsulation and decapsulation are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;" moz-do-not-send="true">RFC6040</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       Additional related guidance can be found in<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>] and<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   5.  Requirements for handling of the ECN field by nodes <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       encapsulatng or decapsulating outer IP headers are specified in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6040" title="&quot;Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification&quot;" moz-do-not-send="true">RFC6040</a>],<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       which is in the process of being updated by <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       Related guidance for encapsulations with non-IP outer headers can be found in<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       [RFC5129], [I-D.ietf.trill-ecn-support], [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-encap-guidelines</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       It is intended that ECN experiments will have to to work without <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       changing these existing encapsulation behaviors. <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] Yes, and in particular, the last sentence is definitely a useful addition.  I will pick this up, with some editing.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <b>2.3.  Operational and Management Considerations<br>
                </b><br>
                I like this a lot too. But a nit:<br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A" moz-do-not-send="true">Appendix A</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>the questions in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#appendix-A" moz-do-not-send="true">Appendix A</a> of RFC 5706<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre><b><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;] ACK, will do.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                2.4 <br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   The second codepoint, ECT(1), is used to support ECN nonce<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   functionality that discourages receivers from exploiting ECN to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   RFC 3168 assigns the second codepoint, ECT(1), to support ECN nonce<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   functionality to discourage receivers from exploiting ECN to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
                Next sentence says the nonce isn't used, so it's
                confusing here to say it is used.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Will do, with “assigns” -&gt; “assigned”</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   4.  Remove the first two paragraphs of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternate uses for the fourth<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       ECN codepoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   4.  Remove the first paragraph of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discuss<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       the ECN nonce and alternatives.  No changes are made to the rest<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       of <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#section-20.2" moz-do-not-send="true">Section 20.2</a>, which discusses alternative uses for the fourth<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>       ECN codepoint.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE: Pls don't remove the 2nd
                para of S.20.2, which is a good alternative to the ECN
                nonce.
                <br>
                In fact, we need this 2nd para, so we can refer to it
                from Appendix C.1 of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id<br>
                instead of using the expired individual draft
                draft-moncaster-tcpm-rcv-cheat<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Hmm – I think that 2<sup>nd</sup> paragraph does
                      have to come out.   I suggest either referencing
                      RFC 3168 as originally published, and/or copying
                      that text into the l4s-id draft with attribution
                      of source.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] I disagree (strongly). The 2nd para
            is about the sender introducing CE randomly as an
            alternative to the nonce. We want to keep that approach -
            it's useful.<br>
            <br>
            Perhaps you are concerned that the last sentence says random
            CE would be less effective than the nonce.
            <br>
            <br>
            But it's OK to say that; it's actually true. Saying that
            doesn't undermine our decision to obsolete the nonce, which
            we justified on wider considerations than just
            effectiveness:<br>
            a) burning a codepoint for improved effectiveness isn't
            considered worthwhile any more<br>
            b) particularly because the nonce wasn't deployed.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                (Also note the nit: alternate means alternating).<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      ACK</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <b>4.1 Congestion Response Differences<br>
                </b><br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   higher likelihood that a shorter queue exists at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   bottleneck node by comparison to a packet drop that indicates<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   congestion [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>     Hence an ECN congestion indication communicates that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   there will not be an excessively long queue at the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   bottleneck node, [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn</a>]<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   whereas a packet drop communicates nothing about the length of<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   a queue.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">RATIONALE:<br>
                A drop could be from:<br>
                * an AQM that does not support ECN (for instance DOCSIS
                AQMs do not define ECN support). Then the queue would be
                the same length as if a CE mark had been emitted (ABE
                works with equivalence of CE and drop).
                <br>
                * a rate policer that has no queue at all.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      That doesn’t vitiate the “higher likelihood”
                      language.  No change needed here.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            [BB] No. The higher likelihood phrasing is incorrect.<br>
            I realized this when Ben Campbell asked "Is it a high chance
            of shorter queue, or higher chance of a short queue?"<br>
            It's neither. It's *certainty* of a short queue, but not
            necessarily a short*er* queue.<br>
            <br>
            Firstly a picky point; ABE doesn't know if it's "a packet
            drop that indicates congestion". 
            <br>
            But my argument is much bigger than that. I'll state it more
            precisely...<br>
            <br>
            Consider ABE experiences an ECN-mark, which must be from an
            ECN-capable AQM. <br>
            I'll define the queue length in this case as Qe<br>
            <br>
            Now compare with the queue lengths in these 4 cases where
            the same ECN-capable packet from ABE experiences a drop
            instead:<br>
            Qe = Qa : drop from non-ECN AQM<br>
            Qe &lt; Qb : tail drop<br>
            Qe &gt; Qc : drop from a rate policer<br>
            Qe &gt;or&lt; Qd : drop due to corruption<br>
            <br>
            So, in no way does CE communicate that there is a higher
            likelihood that Qe is shorter in comparison to the queue had
            the ECN-mark been a drop (Qa, Qb, Qc or Qd).<br>
            <br>
            Something along the lines of the alternative phrasing I
            suggested previously would be sufficient to justify ABE,
            without being incorrect.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <b>4.2 Congestion Marking Differences<br>
                </b><br>
                CURRENT:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   that differs from ECT(0) counterbalanced by use of a different IETF-<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   approved congestion response to CE marks at the sender, e.g., as<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">SUGGESTED:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>   Use of different ECN codepoints is a promising means of<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   identifying these two classes of traffic to network nodes, and hence<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   this area of experimentation is based on the use of the ECT(1)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   codepoint to request ECN congestion marking behavior in the network<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   that differs from ECT(0). This would need to be counterbalanced by <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   use of a different IETF-approved congestion response to CE marks <o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>   at the sender, e.g., as proposed in [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07#ref-I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id" moz-do-not-send="true">I-D.ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">RATIONALE:<br>
                Splits v long sentence.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#993366">[David&gt;]
                      Ok, but use of “would” is too weak – I will split
                      sentence and make it clear that the different
                      congestion response is necessary.</span></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal">[BB] Fine.<br>
            <br>
            Cheers<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Bob<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
              1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                Bob<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On 01/11/17 18:08, Black, David
                  wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi
                    Spencer,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Well,
                    I’m pleasantly surprised that Benoit cleared his
                    Discuss with a simple note of thanks and no further
                    text change requests.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I’ve
                    checked the -07 vs. -06 diff, and it looks good to
                    me, and I concur with your assumption that the RFC
                    Editor will fix the “primary” -&gt; “primarily”
                    problem.
                  </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
                    believe that Gorry (as shepherd) is also fine with
                    this -07 version, but I suggest giving him an
                    opportunity to double-check before pushing the
                    approve-for-publication button.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">And
                    yes … I’m definitely pleased to have reached this
                    stage in the process.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,
                    --David</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                  1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                      1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">
                          Spencer Dawkins at IETF [</span><a
                          href="mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">]
                          <br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:11 PM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> Black, David </span><a
                          href="mailto:david.black@emc.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
                          <b>Cc:</b> </span><a
                          href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">tsvwg@ietf.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action:
                          draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at
                          12:37 PM, Black, David &lt;<a
                            href="mailto:David.Black@dell.com"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">David.Black@dell.com</a>&gt;
                          wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                          #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <p class="MsoNormal">This draft contains
                            changes resulting from IESG Evaluation.<br>
                            <br>
                            See the change history for a summary of
                            what's been done, including the addition of
                            sections 2.2 and 2.3 and movement of section
                            4.4 on the requirement for effective
                            congestion control to section 2.1<br>
                            <br>
                            Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, David,<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">I see that Benoit has
                              cleared his Discuss based on -07, but
                              remember that you mentioned kinda
                              expecting that a -08 might be required,
                              just based on the amount of new text that
                              was added in -07. <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Does it still seem that
                              way to you (and, of course, to your
                              document shepherd)?<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">I did see one typo in
                              the new text, <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from
                              current ECN functionality falls primary
                              upon" should probably be<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">"transition from
                              current ECN functionality falls primarily
                              upon"<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">but that's easily fixed
                              in an RFC Editor Note, if you don't need
                              to submit an updated draft.<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Just let me know!<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">And thanks for horsing
                              that through.<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">Spencer<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                          #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">&gt; -----Original
                                Message-----<br>
                                &gt; From: I-D-Announce [mailto:<a
                                  href="mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                                On Behalf Of<br>
                                &gt; <a
                                  href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br>
                                &gt; Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 5:46
                                PM<br>
                                &gt; To: <a
                                  href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>
                                &gt; Cc: <a
                                  href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org"
                                  moz-do-not-send="true">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br>
                                &gt; Subject: I-D Action:
                                draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; A New Internet-Draft is available
                                from the on-line Internet-Drafts
                                directories.<br>
                                &gt; This draft is a work item of the
                                Transport Area Working Group WG of the<br>
                                &gt; IETF.<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt;         Title           : Relaxing
                                Restrictions on Explicit Congestion
                                Notification (ECN)<br>
                                &gt; Experimentation<br>
                                &gt;         Author          : David
                                Black<br>
                                &gt;       Filename        :
                                draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07.txt<br>
                                &gt;       Pages           : 21<br>
                                &gt;       Date            : 2017-10-20<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; Abstract:<br>
                                &gt;    This memo updates RFC 3168,
                                which specifies Explicit Congestion<br>
                                &gt;    Notification (ECN) as an
                                alternative to packet drops for
                                indicating<br>
                                &gt;    network congestion to
                                endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions in
                                RFC 3168<br>
                                &gt;    that hinder experimentation
                                towards benefits beyond just removal of<br>
                                &gt;    loss.  This memo summarizes the
                                anticipated areas of experimentation<br>
                                &gt;    and updates RFC 3168 to enable
                                experimentation in these areas.  An<br>
                                &gt;    Experimental RFC in the IETF
                                document stream is required to take<br>
                                &gt;    advantage of any of these
                                enabling updates.  In addition, this
                                memo<br>
                                &gt;    makes related updates to the ECN
                                specifications for RTP in RFC 6679<br>
                                &gt;    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC
                                4342 and RFC 5622.  This memo also<br>
                                &gt;    records the conclusion of the
                                ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and<br>
                                &gt;    provides the rationale for
                                reclassification of RFC 3540 as
                                Historic;<br>
                                &gt;    this reclassification enables
                                new experimental use of the ECT(1)<br>
                                &gt;    codepoint.<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; The IETF datatracker status page
                                for this draft is:<br>
                                &gt; <a
href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/</a><br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; There are also htmlized versions
                                available at:<br>
                                &gt; <a
href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                                &gt; <a
                                  href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-</a><br>
                                &gt; experimentation-07<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; A diff from the previous version is
                                available at:<br>
                                &gt; <a
href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-07</a><br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; Please note that it may take a
                                couple of minutes from the time of
                                submission<br>
                                &gt; until the htmlized version and diff
                                are available at <a
                                  href="http://tools.ietf.org"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                                  tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
                                &gt;<br>
                                &gt; Internet-Drafts are also available
                                by anonymous FTP at:<br>
                                &gt; <a
                                  href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/"
                                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
                                &gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"
                            style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt;
                            _______________________________________________<br>
                            &gt; I-D-Announce mailing list<br>
                            &gt; <a href="mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br>
                            &gt; <a
                              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>
                            &gt; Internet-Draft directories: <a
                              href="http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">
                              http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a><br>
                            &gt; or <a
                              href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------3770750DC507808DAAFCFD9F--


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--_000_CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362FD3E8FCMX307CL04corpem_--


From nobody Tue Nov  7 14:49:37 2017
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From: Sowmini Varadhan <sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com>
To: Bob Briscoe <B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com>
Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments about draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-01.txt
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One possible typo: 

Section A.1, page 21 of draft*02, 
  "... However, on
      slow links the packet serialization time can approach the
      threshold T_time, so line 6 sets a floor of 2 MTU to the
      threshold."

should refer to line 19 (not line 6) of initialization code (Figure 2)?

--Sowmini


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/pKVlkXLILU-Pxgzr-0LutMeLgwQ>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments about draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-01.txt
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Sowmini,

No, that's line 6 of the dequeue code, not the initialization code. I 
think that's clear from the context which is walking through the dequeue 
code (the para that introduces the bullets says they're about the 
dequeue code and the previous sentence within the bullet says we're at 
lines 5 to 8).

Nonetheless, I will change it to
     "so line 6 sets a floor of T_len (=2 MTU) to the threshold"

Is that OK?


Bob

On 07/11/17 22:49, Sowmini Varadhan wrote:
> One possible typo:
>
> Section A.1, page 21 of draft*02,
>    "... However, on
>        slow links the packet serialization time can approach the
>        threshold T_time, so line 6 sets a floor of 2 MTU to the
>        threshold."
>
> should refer to line 19 (not line 6) of initialization code (Figure 2)?
>
> --Sowmini
>


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From: Sowmini Varadhan <sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com>
To: Bob Briscoe <B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] comments about draft-ietf-tsvwg-aqm-dualq-coupled-01.txt
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On (11/07/17 23:11), Bob Briscoe wrote:
> Sowmini,
> 
> No, that's line 6 of the dequeue code, not the initialization code. I think
> that's clear from the context which is walking through the dequeue code (the
> para that introduces the bullets says they're about the dequeue code and the
> previous sentence within the bullet says we're at lines 5 to 8).
> 
> Nonetheless, I will change it to
> ?????? "so line 6 sets a floor of T_len (=2 MTU) to the threshold"
> 
> Is that OK?

yes that helps, thanks

--Sowmini


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Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] UDP/IP outer as an IP-shim-IP tunnel and AMT as an example
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Propagating Explicit Congestion Notification Across IP Tunnel Headers Separated by a Shim
        Author          : Bob Briscoe
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2017-11-12

Abstract:
   RFC 6040 on "Tunnelling of Explicit Congestion Notification" made the
   rules for propagation of ECN consistent for all forms of IP in IP
   tunnel.  This specification updates RFC 6040 to clarify that its
   scope includes tunnels where two IP headers are separated by at least
   one shim header that is not sufficient on its own for wide area
   packet forwarding.  It surveys widely deployed IP tunnelling
   protocols separated by such shim header(s) and updates the
   specifications of those that do not mention ECN propagation (L2TPv2,
   L2TPv3, GRE, Teredo and AMT).  This specification also updates RFC
   6040 with configuration requirements needed to make any legacy tunnel
   ingress safe.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [tsvwg] draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt: MSS adjustment / clamping
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Just a small node while I parse draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt:

I think that a discussion of the TCP MSS "clamping" or TCP MSS "adjustment"=
 is missing in this (useful) document.

As far as I know that functionality is widely supported in sub-TCP devices =
and well documented (check the Web).
Michael

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just a small node while I parse draft-fairhurst-tsvw=
g-transport-encrypt:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that a discussion of the TCP MSS <span style=
=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">
&#8220;</span>clamping<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot=
;,serif">&#8221;</span> or TCP MSS
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&#8220;</span=
>adjustment<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&#=
8221;</span> is missing in this (useful) document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I know that functionality is widely suppor=
ted in sub-TCP devices and well documented (check the Web).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 06:22:34 2017
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:20:41 +0800
Cc: "draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt@ietf.org" <draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt@ietf.org>,  "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt: MSS adjustment / clamping
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I think it is fine that we add some text about this.=20

I would like, But I don=E2=80=99t have, measurement data that would tell me w=
hether plpmtud or mss-clamping is actually the main way that TCP finds the p=
mtu.

However, I think this method may only work for TCP, where the receiver MSS i=
s known in the header, and not for a range of other transports.=20

Gorry

> On 13 Nov 2017, at 17:20, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) <michael.=
scharf@nokia.com> wrote:
>=20
> Just a small node while I parse draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt:
> =20
> I think that a discussion of the TCP MSS =E2=80=9Cclamping=E2=80=9D or TCP=
 MSS =E2=80=9Cadjustment=E2=80=9D is missing in this (useful) document.
> =20
> As far as I know that functionality is widely supported in sub-TCP devices=
 and well documented (check the Web).
> Michael

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div>I think it is fine that we a=
dd some text about this.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I would like, But I d=
on=E2=80=99t have, measurement data that would tell me whether plpmtud or ms=
s-clamping is actually the main way that TCP finds the pmtu.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>However, I think this method may only work for TCP, where the rece=
iver MSS is known in the header, and not for a range of other transports.&nb=
sp;</div><div><br></div><div>Gorry</div><div><br>On 13 Nov 2017, at 17:20, S=
charf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.scharf@n=
okia.com">michael.scharf@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">=

<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Just a small node while I parse draft-fairhurst-tsvwg=
-transport-encrypt:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that a discussion of the TCP MSS <span style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">
=E2=80=9C</span>clamping<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;,serif">=E2=80=9D</span> or TCP MSS
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=E2=80=9C</spa=
n>adjustment<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=E2=
=80=9D</span> is missing in this (useful) document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As far as I know that functionality is widely support=
ed in sub-TCP devices and well documented (check the Web).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-FCC65742-9753-484E-AD02-7ACDE1B4DA92--


From nobody Mon Nov 13 19:33:47 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Experimentation
        Author          : David Black
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2017-11-13

Abstract:
   This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion
   Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating
   network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168
   that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of
   loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation
   and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas.  An
   Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take
   advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In addition, this memo
   makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679
   and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  This memo also
   records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and
   provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic;
   this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1)
   codepoint.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt
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This is the result of Bob and I getting to agreement on all five remaining =
issues.  The major changes are to section 2.2, where the resolutions to iss=
ues [B]and [C] can be found in items 2 and 3, as well as in the new name of=
 the section.  I encourage people to read and review section 2.2 in its ent=
irety.  As for the other three issues ...

Issue [A] was an editorial change in the Section 2 description of Congestio=
n Response Differences experimentation - the new (-08) text is:

      the proposal in the latter draft
      couples the sender congestion response change to Congestion
      Marking Differences functionality (see next paragraph).

The old (-07) text used "changes" instead of "functionality."

Issue [D] concerned whether to retain an ECN-nonce-related non-normative pa=
ragraph in RFC 3168.  This will be handled by copying the RFC 3168 text tha=
t is desired (it turns out that more than one paragraph is involved) into t=
he L4S ID draft and editing from there.

Issue [E] was resolved by basing this sentence (in Section 2 and Section 4.=
1) closely on the ECN alternative backoff draft in TCPM:

      An ECN congestion indication communicates a higher likelihood than a =
dropped packet that a short queue exists at the network bottleneck node.

In particular, I don't care to admit how much time and email bandwidth was =
spent on the difference between "short" and "shorter" in this sentence ;-).

Spencer will hold off on sending this -08 version to the RFC Editor so that=
 people have time to look at what's changed from -07.

Thanks, --David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 10:34 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct=
ories.
> This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the I=
ETF.
>=20
>         Title           : Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion No=
tification (ECN)
> Experimentation
>         Author          : David Black
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 21
> 	Date            : 2017-11-13
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion
>    Notification (ECN) as an alternative to packet drops for indicating
>    network congestion to endpoints.  It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168
>    that hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal of
>    loss.  This memo summarizes the anticipated areas of experimentation
>    and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in these areas.  An
>    Experimental RFC in the IETF document stream is required to take
>    advantage of any of these enabling updates.  In addition, this memo
>    makes related updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679
>    and for DCCP in RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  This memo also
>    records the conclusion of the ECN nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and
>    provides the rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic;
>    this reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1)
>    codepoint.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentatio=
n-
> 08
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-=
08
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


From nobody Mon Nov 13 23:03:19 2017
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the IETF.

        Title           : RFC 4960 Errata and Issues
        Authors         : Randall R. Stewart
                          Michael Tuexen
                          Maksim Proshin
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt
	Pages           : 87
	Date            : 2017-11-13

Abstract:
   This document is a compilation of issues found since the publication
   of RFC4960 in September 2007 based on experience with implementing,
   testing, and using SCTP along with the suggested fixes.  This
   document provides deltas to RFC4960 and is organized in a time based
   way.  The issues are listed in the order they were brought up.
   Because some text is changed several times the last delta in the text
   is the one which should be applied.  In addition to the delta a
   description of the problem and the details of the solution are also
   provided.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Tue Nov 14 01:36:50 2017
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Two (important) high level comments:

1) I really think this doc should not redefine normative mapping that are
already defined in RFC4594. I would srongly recomend to repharse without using
normative language and just refer to RFC4594. One example:

OLD
"The RECOMMENDED DSCP marking for Network Control is CS6, per
   [RFC4594] Section 3.2;"
NEW
"The recommended DSCP marking for Network Control is CS6, per
   [RFC4594] Section 3.2;"
OR (you can use a literal citation):
"As stated in [RFC4594], Section 3.2: "The RECOMMENDED DSCP marking [for
Network Control] is CS6"."

2) Further, I’m wondering if this document should be rather BCP than Standards
Track as it does not define a protocol but gives normative recommendations?

----
Other comments:

1) EIFS is not defined/extended

2)  in sec 4.2.2:
„(as recommended above and following the EDCAF treatment logic described in
Section 4.“ maybe s/described in Section 4/described at the beginning of this
Section/ I was a bit confused where in section 4 given this text is in section
for.

However, maybe it might be good to actually move that paragraph at the
beginning of section 4 explaining implementations of UP differentiation
somewhere to section 1 or in an own section, as it rather provides background
info than making any recommendations.

3) in sec 4.2.5:
„The Multimedia Streaming service class is RECOMMENDED for
   applications that require near-real-time packet forwarding of
   variable rate elastic traffic sources.  Typically these flows are
   unidirectional.“
Not sure if streaming is typically unidirectional, but why is this important
here?

4) Sec 5:
„This is RECOMMENDED whenever supported.“
Actually not sure what this means or why it is necessary to say this
(normatively).

5) Sec 5.2:
„Therefore, it is NOT RECOMMENDED that wireless access points leverage Layer 2
   [IEEE.802.11-2016] UP markings as set by wireless hosts…“
I think this could be made even stronger and say MUST NOT instead (where NOT
RECOMMENDED is a SHOULD NOT)

6) sec 5.3:
 „CS6 and CS7 SHOULD NOT be passed through to the wired network in the upstream
 direction unless…“
Should this maybe also be a „MUST NOT“?

7) Section 6:
I would recommend to actually move the background described here (mainly
section 6.1) to an appendix at the end of the doc, given the intro says that.
Further, section 6.3 should be moved to an own section (that stays in the body
of the document) as it actually provides normative recommendations. I would
further recommend to keep section 6.2 also in the body but move it before
section 2 as this is the needed background to understand the terminology in
this doc. Respectively terminology that is only used (and explained) in section
6.1 could be removed from section 1.6.

8) Section 8.1
„Policing EF marked packet flows, as detailed in [RFC2474] Section 7 and
[RFC3246] Section 3.“ This doesn’t appear to be full sentence.

9) Also section 8.1:
 „This is especially relevant for IoT deployments, where tens-of-billions of
      devices that may have little or no security are being connected to IP
      networks.“
I really don’t see why this is more relevant for IoT than other devices that
connected to a wifi network. Is this sentence actually needed here?

Also, this document, recommends bleaching, however, isn’t there another
DiffServ RFC that discusses forwarding policies that should be references
(maybe even instead of making an explicit normative recommendation in this
doc)? Maybe RFC8100 (didn’t look it up…)?

10) Also section 8.2:
„… it is RECOMMENDED that all packets marked to Diffserv Codepoints not in use
over the wireless network be mapped to UP 0…“ I’m actually not certain what
„not in use over the wireless network“ means here. Can you please further
specify this!

11) Question regarding section 5.1 and 8.2 respectively:  I assume e.g. DHCP
traffic is not considered as control traffic then? Might be good to state this
explicitly… Or should it?



From nobody Tue Nov 14 23:32:21 2017
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From: joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
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Hello, I agreed to review  draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05 during
the tsvwg meeting on Monday 11/13.

Section 5 details the various encapsulations to  to which the behavior
described in the update is inteded to apply which 5.1 outlines the
specfic changes to be made.

As far as I can tell this normatively updates  the following (and the
draft agrees) which is a fair number of communities to reach out to.

[RFC6040]

[RFC2661] [RFC3931]

gre - [RFC2784]

teredo - [RFC4380]

AMT [RFC7450]

Looking more closely at AMT, with respect to rfc7450 4.1.4.2. As far as
I can tell, no meaningful action can be taken with respect to an ECN
signal can undertaken by an AMT receiver WRT to an individual flow. 7450
is  clear on the mechanisms AMT receivers have available to them. ECN is
not a circuit breaker nor is it conceivably expressive enough to be used
as one. it's possible that some potential uses of AMT could make use of
ECN signals across multiple flows.

I have solicited feedback from Mboned participants on the proposed
negotiation changes, to me they seem feasible.

---

minor semantic quible.

section 3.0 scope

	There is only one safe value a
   	tunnel ingress can use if it does not know whether the egress
   	supports propagation of the ECN field; it has to clear the ECN field
   	in any outer IP header to 0b00.

The outer header is being created by the encapsulating device. It sets
the ECN field to 00 when creating it rather than removing any value.

section 3.0 paragraph

   However, an RFC has no jurisdiction over implementations that choose
   not to comply with it or cannot comply with it, including all those
   implementations that pre-dated the RFC.  Therefore it would have been
   unreasonable to add such a requirement to RFC 6040.  Nonetheless, to
   ensure safe propagation of the ECN field over tunnels, it is
   reasonable to add requirements on operators, to ensure they configure
   their tunnels safely (where possible).  Before stating these
   configuration requirements in Section 4, the factors that determine
   whether propagating ECN is feasible or desirable will be briefly
   introduced.

could be more compactly writen as

An RFC cannot impose behavior on implementations that choose
not to or which cannot comply with it, inclusive of implementations
that pre-dated the RFC. To encourage safe propagation
of the ECN field over tunnels, it is reasonable to require operators
to configure their tunnels safely (where possible).  The
factors that determine whether propagating ECN to the outer
header is feasible or  desirable will be briefly introduced.

Thanks, I hope this helps.
Joel


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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8260

        Title:      Stream Schedulers and User Message 
                    Interleaving for the Stream Control Transmission 
                    Protocol 
        Author:     R. Stewart, 
                    M. Tuexen,
                    S. Loreto, 
                    R. Seggelmann
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       November 2017
        Mailbox:    randall@lakerest.net, 
                    tuexen@fh-muenster.de, 
                    Salvatore.Loreto@ericsson.com,  
                    rfc@robin-seggelmann.com
        Pages:      23
        Characters: 50887
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-ndata-13.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8260

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8260

The Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is a message-oriented
transport protocol supporting arbitrarily large user messages.  This
document adds a new chunk to SCTP for carrying payload data.  This
allows a sender to interleave different user messages that would
otherwise result in head-of-line blocking at the sender.  The
interleaving of user messages is required for WebRTC data channels.

Whenever an SCTP sender is allowed to send user data, it may choose
from multiple outgoing SCTP streams.  Multiple ways for performing
this selection, called stream schedulers, are defined in this
document.  A stream scheduler can choose to either implement, or not
implement, user message interleaving.

This document is a product of the Transport Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track
protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements.  Please refer to the current edition of the Official
Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the 
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 8261

        Title:      Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) 
                    Encapsulation of SCTP Packets 
        Author:     M. Tuexen, 
                    R. Stewart,
                    R. Jesup, 
                    S. Loreto
        Status:     Standards Track
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       November 2017
        Mailbox:    tuexen@fh-muenster.de, 
                    randall@lakerest.net, 
                    randell-ietf@jesup.org,  
                    Salvatore.Loreto@ericsson.com
        Pages:      10
        Characters: 21035
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctp-dtls-encaps-09.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8261

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC8261

The Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) is a transport
protocol originally defined to run on top of the network protocols
IPv4 or IPv6.  This document specifies how SCTP can be used on top of
the Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) protocol.  Using the
encapsulation method described in this document, SCTP is unaware of
the protocols being used below DTLS; hence, explicit IP addresses
cannot be used in the SCTP control chunks.  As a consequence, the
SCTP associations carried over DTLS can only be single-homed.

This document is a product of the Transport Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard.

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From nobody Thu Nov 16 03:37:28 2017
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To: joel jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>, draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim@ietf.org
Cc: "Shepherd, Greg -- Greg Shepherd" <gjshep@gmail.com>, tsvwg@ietf.org
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From: Bob Briscoe <in@bobbriscoe.net>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05
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Thx Joel for rapid turn round, inline..

On 15/11/2017 15:31, joel jaeggli wrote:
> Hello, I agreed to review  draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc6040update-shim-05 during
> the tsvwg meeting on Monday 11/13.
>
> Section 5 details the various encapsulations to  to which the behavior
> described in the update is inteded to apply which 5.1 outlines the
> specfic changes to be made.
>
> As far as I can tell this normatively updates  the following (and the
> draft agrees) which is a fair number of communities to reach out to.
>
> [RFC6040]
>
> [RFC2661] [RFC3931]
>
> gre - [RFC2784]
>
> teredo - [RFC4380]
>
> AMT [RFC7450]
Yeah, it hasn't been easy. But it would have been even harder to get 
each community to write one RFC each.
>
> Looking more closely at AMT, with respect to rfc7450 4.1.4.2. As far as
> I can tell, no meaningful action can be taken with respect to an ECN
> signal can undertaken by an AMT receiver WRT to an individual flow. 7450
> is  clear on the mechanisms AMT receivers have available to them. ECN is
> not a circuit breaker nor is it conceivably expressive enough to be used
> as one. it's possible that some potential uses of AMT could make use of
> ECN signals across multiple flows.
No judgement on how the signal might be used was intended, but you're 
right that to be worthwhile at least there would have to be /a/ way. 
However, a CC mechanism can't be built at all without the signals from 
the network and I would assert that ECN is more expressive (or at least 
less ambiguous) than loss.

This AMT mechanism was largely added to the doc cos Jake Holland proved 
to me that it was no less worthy a candidate than the other ones in the 
doc. I proposed a design and he altered it:
* from Relay discovery messages (which might get intercepted by an 
intermediary)
* to IGMP Query Request messages,

> I have solicited feedback from Mboned participants on the proposed
> negotiation changes, to me they seem feasible.
To be precise it's a declaration rather than a negotiation.
Whatever, thx for checking it out.

>
> ---
>
> minor semantic quible.
>
> section 3.0 scope
>
> 	There is only one safe value a
>     	tunnel ingress can use if it does not know whether the egress
>     	supports propagation of the ECN field; it has to clear the ECN field
>     	in any outer IP header to 0b00.
>
> The outer header is being created by the encapsulating device. It sets
> the ECN field to 00 when creating it rather than removing any value.
I'll leave it - it's clear (pun intended).
I generally copy-pasted that phrasing cos most tunnelling is done in 
hardware, and I'm told that copy from inner to outer then change certain 
fields is more likely in h/w. I accept that AMT is most likely to be 
software-based tho.

>
> section 3.0 paragraph
>
>     However, an RFC has no jurisdiction over implementations that choose
>     not to comply with it or cannot comply with it, including all those
>     implementations that pre-dated the RFC.  Therefore it would have been
>     unreasonable to add such a requirement to RFC 6040.  Nonetheless, to
>     ensure safe propagation of the ECN field over tunnels, it is
>     reasonable to add requirements on operators, to ensure they configure
>     their tunnels safely (where possible).  Before stating these
>     configuration requirements in Section 4, the factors that determine
>     whether propagating ECN is feasible or desirable will be briefly
>     introduced.
>
> could be more compactly writen as
>
> An RFC cannot impose behavior on implementations that choose
> not to or which cannot comply with it, inclusive of implementations
> that pre-dated the RFC. To encourage safe propagation
> of the ECN field over tunnels, it is reasonable to require operators
> to configure their tunnels safely (where possible).  The
> factors that determine whether propagating ECN to the outer
> header is feasible or  desirable will be briefly introduced.
Thanks. I'll use this, with some further 'improvement':

An RFC cannot impose behavior on implementations that cannot or
choose not to comply with it, including implementations
that pre-dated the RFC. Nonetheless, to encourage safe propagation
of the ECN field over tunnels, it is reasonable to require operators
to configure their tunnels safely (where possible).  The
factors that determine whether propagating ECN to the outer
header is feasible or desirable will be briefly introduced.


>
> Thanks, I hope this helps.
Certainly does. Thx.

I have yet another mtg tonight so I'll do the edits next week, along 
with those Sri would now like to add regarding Mobile IP (sry, that 
changes the draft following your edit, but I didn't want to turn down 
the offer).


Bob
> Joel


From nobody Thu Nov 16 19:04:43 2017
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From: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT)
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Subject: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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Hi,

as just stated in the session, I plan to update draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
to version 3 with at least the following changes:

- Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
  either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).

- Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
  proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
   +---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
  mapping or to add it.
- remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
  recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
  LE-strict semantics.

Regards,
 Roland


From nobody Thu Nov 16 22:18:45 2017
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Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
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Dear TSVWG WG,

As we discussed during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 
Errata and Issues", is thought ready for publication and now ready for 
feedback. The latest version of the draft is available here:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04

This email starts a 3 week WGLC to allow time for folks to provide 
feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec 2017. Please send comments 
indicating the usefulness of the draft, noting issues, or simply asking 
for clariification to this list (or to the WG Dhairs).

Best Regards,

Gorry, David and Wes
(TSVWG co-Chairs)

The following people have agreed to also submit a review during the WGLC 
period:
Kacheong
Peter Lei
Irene Rungeler
Qiaobing Xie




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To: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>, tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:40:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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To: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/lIpMg7cmW5PS10jP32RyOR7XBkI>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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+1

I think it can update, but needs to ADD a DSCP mapping. However, the current=
 use of CS1 needs to also be retained in the mapping, although we recommend t=
he new codepoint.

Gorry

> On 17 Nov 2017, at 15:40, Black, David <David.Black@dell.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Roland,
>=20
>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>>  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>>  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>>  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>>  proceed to RFC as is.  draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>>  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>>   +---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>>   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
>>   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
>>   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>>  mapping or to add it.
>=20
> There's enough "running code" for CS1 that this should be an additional ma=
pping, and should not replace the existing one.  That'll create a need for s=
ome text advising which DSCP to choose for Background traffic in the wireles=
s -> wired direction.
>=20
> We (chairs) will also ask Spencer to add an RFC Editor note to draft-ietf-=
tsvwg-ieee-802-11 to add text indicating that this LE PHB draft will be maki=
ng changes, including adding a DSCP (specific text will be posted to list, o=
nce it's crafted ...)
>=20
> Thanks, --David
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roland Bless
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:04 PM
>> To: tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> as just stated in the session, I plan to update draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
>> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
>>=20
>> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
>>  either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).
>>=20
>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>>  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>>  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>>  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>>  proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>>  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>>   +---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>>   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
>>   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
>>   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>>  mapping or to add it.
>> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
>>  recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
>>  LE-strict semantics.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Roland
>=20


From nobody Tue Nov 21 04:27:44 2017
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From: =?utf-8?Q?Irene_R=C3=BCngeler?= <i.ruengeler@fh-muenster.de>
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Cc: Kacheong Poon <ka-cheong.poon@oracle.com>, Qiaobing Xie <qxie@netflix.com>, peterlei@netflix.com, tsvwg@ietf.org
To: Michael Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
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I reviewed this draft and found some typos which I mentioned to Michael =
directly. Otherwise, I have no comments concerning functional topics and =
support the progression of this draft to RFC.

Best regards

Irene

> Am 17.11.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Michael Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de>:
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> thank you very much for agreeing to review the ID during WG LC.
>=20
> The WGLC has just started. I'm sending this mail since I'm not sure
> you are following the tsvwg mailing list.
>=20
> Please send your comments to the mailing list. In the unlikely event =
that
> you don't have any comments, please state that in a short mail, too.
>=20
> Thank you very much for your support!
>=20
> Best regards
> Michael
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
>> Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for =
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
>> Date: 17. November 2017 at 07:18:35 CET
>> To: tsvwg@ietf.org
>> Cc: tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org
>> Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk
>>=20
>>=20
>> Dear TSVWG WG,
>>=20
>> As we discussed during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 =
Errata and Issues", is thought ready for publication and now ready for =
feedback. The latest version of the draft is available here:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04
>>=20
>> This email starts a 3 week WGLC to allow time for folks to provide =
feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec 2017. Please send comments =
indicating the usefulness of the draft, noting issues, or simply asking =
for clariification to this list (or to the WG Dhairs).
>>=20
>> Best Regards,
>>=20
>> Gorry, David and Wes
>> (TSVWG co-Chairs)
>>=20
>> The following people have agreed to also submit a review during the =
WGLC period:
>> Kacheong
>> Peter Lei
>> Irene Rungeler
>> Qiaobing Xie
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20

*****************************************

Dr. Irene R=C3=BCngeler
Fachbereich Elektrotechnik und Informatik
Labor f=C3=BCr Netzwerkprogrammierung, Datenbanklabor

Fachhochschule M=C3=BCnster
- University of Applied Sciences -=20
Stegerwaldstra=C3=9Fe 39, Raum E130a
48565 Steinfurt

Tel: +49 2551 962-561=20
Fax: +49 2551 962-563=20
EMail: I.Ruengeler@fh-muenster.de








--Apple-Mail=_1A027088-602F-4701-8954-CE2012CA44B5
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I reviewed this draft and found some typos which I mentioned =
to Michael directly. Otherwise, I have no comments concerning functional =
topics and support the progression of this draft to RFC.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best regards</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Irene</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Am 17.11.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Michael Tuexen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tuexen@fh-muenster.de" =
class=3D"">tuexen@fh-muenster.de</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Dear =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">thank you very much for agreeing to =
review the ID during WG LC.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The WGLC has =
just started. I'm sending this mail since I'm not sure<br class=3D"">you =
are following the tsvwg mailing list.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please =
send your comments to the mailing list. In the unlikely event that<br =
class=3D"">you don't have any comments, please state that in a short =
mail, too.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thank you very much for your =
support!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Best regards<br =
class=3D"">Michael<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">From: =
Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" =
class=3D"">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Subject: [tsvwg] =
WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to =
end Fri 8th Dec 2017<br class=3D"">Date: 17. November 2017 at 07:18:35 =
CET<br class=3D"">To: <a href=3D"mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tsvwg@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">Reply-To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" =
class=3D"">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dear TSVWG WG,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">As we discussed =
during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 Errata and Issues", =
is thought ready for publication and now ready for feedback. The latest =
version of the draft is available here:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04<=
/a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This email starts a 3 week WGLC to =
allow time for folks to provide feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec =
2017. Please send comments indicating the usefulness of the draft, =
noting issues, or simply asking for clariification to this list (or to =
the WG Dhairs).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Best Regards,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Gorry, David and Wes<br class=3D"">(TSVWG =
co-Chairs)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The following people have agreed =
to also submit a review during the WGLC period:<br class=3D"">Kacheong<br =
class=3D"">Peter Lei<br class=3D"">Irene Rungeler<br class=3D"">Qiaobing =
Xie<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">*****************************************<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dr. Irene R=C3=BCngeler<br class=3D"">Fachbereich =
Elektrotechnik und&nbsp;Informatik<br class=3D"">Labor f=C3=BCr =
Netzwerkprogrammierung,&nbsp;Datenbanklabor<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Fachhochschule M=C3=BCnster<br class=3D"">- University of =
Applied Sciences -&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Stegerwaldstra=C3=9Fe 39, Raum =
E130a<br class=3D"">48565 Steinfurt<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Tel: =
+49 2551 962-561&nbsp;<br class=3D"">Fax: +49 2551 962-563&nbsp;<br =
class=3D"">EMail: <a href=3D"mailto:I.Ruengeler@fh-muenster.de" =
class=3D"">I.Ruengeler@fh-muenster.de</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>
</div>
<br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Nov 21 04:48:01 2017
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From: Michael Tuexen <tuexen@fh-muenster.de>
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Irene_R=C3=BCngeler?= <i.ruengeler@fh-muenster.de>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
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> On 21. Nov 2017, at 13:27, Irene R=C3=BCngeler =
<i.ruengeler@fh-muenster.de> wrote:
>=20
> I reviewed this draft and found some typos which I mentioned to =
Michael directly. Otherwise, I have no comments concerning functional =
topics and support the progression of this draft to RFC.
Hi Irene,

thanks for the review.

The changes  have been committed and the changes are available at:
=
https://github.com/sctplab/rfc4960bis/commit/77823a3d065c716c4257e65e65dae=
995ad47ee22

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> Best regards
>=20
> Irene
>=20
>> Am 17.11.2017 um 14:52 schrieb Michael Tuexen =
<tuexen@fh-muenster.de>:
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> thank you very much for agreeing to review the ID during WG LC.
>>=20
>> The WGLC has just started. I'm sending this mail since I'm not sure
>> you are following the tsvwg mailing list.
>>=20
>> Please send your comments to the mailing list. In the unlikely event =
that
>> you don't have any comments, please state that in a short mail, too.
>>=20
>> Thank you very much for your support!
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Michael
>>=20
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>=20
>>> From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
>>> Subject: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for =
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
>>> Date: 17. November 2017 at 07:18:35 CET
>>> To: tsvwg@ietf.org
>>> Cc: tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org
>>> Reply-To: gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Dear TSVWG WG,
>>>=20
>>> As we discussed during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 =
Errata and Issues", is thought ready for publication and now ready for =
feedback. The latest version of the draft is available here:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04
>>>=20
>>> This email starts a 3 week WGLC to allow time for folks to provide =
feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec 2017. Please send comments =
indicating the usefulness of the draft, noting issues, or simply asking =
for clariification to this list (or to the WG Dhairs).
>>>=20
>>> Best Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Gorry, David and Wes
>>> (TSVWG co-Chairs)
>>>=20
>>> The following people have agreed to also submit a review during the =
WGLC period:
>>> Kacheong
>>> Peter Lei
>>> Irene Rungeler
>>> Qiaobing Xie
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> *****************************************
>=20
> Dr. Irene R=C3=BCngeler
> Fachbereich Elektrotechnik und Informatik
> Labor f=C3=BCr Netzwerkprogrammierung, Datenbanklabor
>=20
> Fachhochschule M=C3=BCnster
> - University of Applied Sciences -=20
> Stegerwaldstra=C3=9Fe 39, Raum E130a
> 48565 Steinfurt
>=20
> Tel: +49 2551 962-561=20
> Fax: +49 2551 962-563=20
> EMail: I.Ruengeler@fh-muenster.de
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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> On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> as just stated in the session, I plan to update =
draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
>=20
> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
>  either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).

For what it's worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is running some =
measurements on this just now. I'm waiting for a more detailed report =
from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like methodology =
on ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets marked DSCP 46 =
are rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 on about 700 =
paths. So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a "not used in the =
Internet" sense, but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.

Cheers,

Brian

> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>  proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>   =
+---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) =
|
>   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    =
|
>   =
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>  mapping or to add it.
> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
>  recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
>  LE-strict semantics.
>=20
> Regards,
> Roland
>=20


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From nobody Tue Nov 21 10:33:42 2017
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From: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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Hi Brian,

On 21.11.2017 at 14:38 Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>> On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> as just stated in the session, I plan to update draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
>> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
>>
>> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
>>  either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).
> 
> For what it's worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is running some measurements on this just now. I'm waiting for a more detailed report from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like methodology on ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets marked DSCP 46 are rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 on about 700 paths. So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a "not used in the Internet" sense, but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.

Thanks for investigating this. DSCP 46 is EF and DSCP 1 and 5 are
local-use right now. So this is IMHO a weird behavior. Given the
small percentage, I don't see real problems here.

Regards,
 Roland


>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>>  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>>  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>>  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>>  proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>>  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>>   +---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>>   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
>>   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
>>   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>>  mapping or to add it.
>> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
>>  recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
>>  LE-strict semantics.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Roland
>>
> 


From nobody Tue Nov 21 10:41:40 2017
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Subject: [tsvwg] Reminder WG Review of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation and draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata
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The -08 revision of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation  (ECN 
Experimentation) was announced 2017-11-13. Please note that this version 
is now ready for publication, and includes all the changes introduced 
following IESG review. If you see anything amiss in the final revision, 
please let the chairs/list know by Thu 23rd Nov 2017.

Please also review and send comments concerning 
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata (SCTP Errata), currently in WGLC for 
comments before Fri 8th Dec 2017.

Best wishes,

Gorry, David and Wes
(TSVWG Co-Chairs)


From nobody Tue Nov 21 11:19:44 2017
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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On 22/11/2017 07:33, Roland Bless wrote:
> Hi Brian,
> 
> On 21.11.2017 at 14:38 Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>> On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> as just stated in the session, I plan to update draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
>>> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
>>>
>>> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
>>>  either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).
>>
>> For what it's worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is running some measurements on this just now. I'm waiting for a more detailed report from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like methodology on ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets marked DSCP 46 are rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 on about 700 paths. So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a "not used in the Internet" sense, but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.
> 
> Thanks for investigating this. DSCP 46 is EF and DSCP 1 and 5 are
> local-use right now. So this is IMHO a weird behavior. 

Yes. A charitable explanation is a site that maps on ingress
to a local use DSCP (or MPLS Traffic Class) but fails to remap 
correctly on egress. If there's one class that should be preserved
end to end, it's EF.

> Given the small percentage, I don't see real problems here.

Agreed.
   Brian

> 
> Regards,
>  Roland
> 
> 
>>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>>>  put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>>>  changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>>>  draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>>>  proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>>>  add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>>>   +---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>>>   | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
>>>   |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
>>>   +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>  It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>>>  mapping or to add it.
>>> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
>>>  recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
>>>  LE-strict semantics.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Roland
>>>
>>
> 
> 


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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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The measurement was on the forward path using a tracebox-like =
methodology. =46rom my recollection of a glance at the output of the =
analysis script, the three most prominent values at the next to last hop =
were, in order:

1. 6 (i.e., clear three MSB)
2. 46 (pass unchanged)
3. 0 (bleach)

Everything else was down in the noise, and I concur with Brian that most =
of that is probably local use without egress remapping.

I can send details to the list in a couple weeks when Michael has =
completed his analysis.

Cheers,

Brian

> On 21 Nov 2017, at 20:19, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 22/11/2017 07:33, Roland Bless wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>=20
>> On 21.11.2017 at 14:38 Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>>> On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> as just stated in the session, I plan to update =
draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
>>>> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 =
(XXXX01),
>>>> either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).
>>>=20
>>> For what it's worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is running =
some measurements on this just now. I'm waiting for a more detailed =
report from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like =
methodology on ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets =
marked DSCP 46 are rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 =
on about 700 paths. So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a "not used =
in the Internet" sense, but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.
>>=20
>> Thanks for investigating this. DSCP 46 is EF and DSCP 1 and 5 are
>> local-use right now. So this is IMHO a weird behavior.
>=20
> Yes. A charitable explanation is a site that maps on ingress
> to a local use DSCP (or MPLS Traffic Class) but fails to remap
> correctly on egress. If there's one class that should be preserved
> end to end, it's EF.
>=20
>> Given the small percentage, I don't see real problems here.
>=20
> Agreed.
>   Brian
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Roland
>>=20
>>=20
>>>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
>>>> put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
>>>> changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
>>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
>>>> proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
>>>> add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
>>>>  =
+---------------+------+---------+-------------+--------------------+
>>>>  | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK =
(Background) |
>>>>  |     Data      |      |         |             |                   =
 |
>>>>  =
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
>>>> It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
>>>> mapping or to add it.
>>>> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
>>>> recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
>>>> LE-strict semantics.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Roland


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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
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Hello,

I have no comments on it myself. Have used this Errata some time ago
(we had rwnd/cwnd handling fixes on Linux stack because of the errata), 
went over it again now, it LGTM and I don't think we (Linux stack) have 
(major) discrepancies due to it.

Thanks,
Marcelo

Em 17-11-2017 04:18, Gorry Fairhurst escreveu:
> 
> Dear TSVWG WG,
> 
> As we discussed during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 
> Errata and Issues", is thought ready for publication and now ready for 
> feedback. The latest version of the draft is available here:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04
> 
> This email starts a 3 week WGLC to allow time for folks to provide 
> feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec 2017. Please send comments 
> indicating the usefulness of the draft, noting issues, or simply asking 
> for clariification to this list (or to the WG Dhairs).
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Gorry, David and Wes
> (TSVWG co-Chairs)
> 
> The following people have agreed to also submit a review during the WGLC 
> period:
> Kacheong
> Peter Lei
> Irene Rungeler
> Qiaobing Xie
> 
> 
> 


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 07:08:12 +0800
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Planned update of draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
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Top-posting,

Can I just say that I love reality-based protocol engineering?

Brian, please thank your student on my behalf.

Spencer

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:38 AM, Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>
wrote:

> The measurement was on the forward path using a tracebox-like methodology.
> From my recollection of a glance at the output of the analysis script, the
> three most prominent values at the next to last hop were, in order:
>
> 1. 6 (i.e., clear three MSB)
> 2. 46 (pass unchanged)
> 3. 0 (bleach)
>
> Everything else was down in the noise, and I concur with Brian that most
> of that is probably local use without egress remapping.
>
> I can send details to the list in a couple weeks when Michael has
> completed his analysis.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
> > On 21 Nov 2017, at 20:19, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On 22/11/2017 07:33, Roland Bless wrote:
> >> Hi Brian,
> >>
> >> On 21.11.2017 at 14:38 Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
> >>>> On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>> as just stated in the session, I plan to update
> draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb
> >>>> to version 3 with at least the following changes:
> >>>>
> >>>> - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool 3 (XXXX01),
> >>>> either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).
> >>>
> >>> For what it's worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is running
> some measurements on this just now. I'm waiting for a more detailed report
> from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like methodology on
> ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets marked DSCP 46 are
> rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 on about 700 paths.
> So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a "not used in the Internet" sense,
> but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.
> >>
> >> Thanks for investigating this. DSCP 46 is EF and DSCP 1 and 5 are
> >> local-use right now. So this is IMHO a weird behavior.
> >
> > Yes. A charitable explanation is a site that maps on ingress
> > to a local use DSCP (or MPLS Traffic Class) but fails to remap
> > correctly on egress. If there's one class that should be preserved
> > end to end, it's EF.
> >
> >> Given the small percentage, I don't see real problems here.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >   Brian
> >
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Roland
> >>
> >>
> >>>> - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11):
> >>>> put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes
> >>>> changes to that RFC. To be clear here:
> >>>> draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it should
> >>>> proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, would
> >>>> add changes to that RFC, e.g.,
> >>>>  +---------------+------+---------+-------------+------------
> --------+
> >>>>  | Low-Priority  | LE   | RFC(LE) |     1       | AC_BK (Background) |
> >>>>  |     Data      |      |         |             |                    |
> >>>>  +-----------------------------------------------------------
> --------+
> >>>> It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the existing
> >>>> mapping or to add it.
> >>>> - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to be ok
> >>>> recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one wants
> >>>> LE-strict semantics.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Roland
>
>

--94eb2c0779eefb18d6055e864651
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Top-posting,<div><br></div><div>Can I just say that I love=
 reality-based protocol engineering?<div><br></div><div>Brian, please thank=
 your student on my behalf.</div><div><br></div><div>Spencer</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:=
38 AM, Brian Trammell (IETF) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@t=
rammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The measurement was on the forward path using a=
 tracebox-like methodology. From my recollection of a glance at the output =
of the analysis script, the three most prominent values at the next to last=
 hop were, in order:<br>
<br>
1. 6 (i.e., clear three MSB)<br>
2. 46 (pass unchanged)<br>
3. 0 (bleach)<br>
<br>
Everything else was down in the noise, and I concur with Brian that most of=
 that is probably local use without egress remapping.<br>
<br>
I can send details to the list in a couple weeks when Michael has completed=
 his analysis.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; On 21 Nov 2017, at 20:19, Brian E Carpenter &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bria=
n.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 22/11/2017 07:33, Roland Bless wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Brian,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 21.11.2017 at 14:38 Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 17 Nov 2017, at 04:04, Roland Bless &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:roland.bless@kit.edu">roland.bless@kit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as just stated in the session, I plan to update draft-ietf=
-tsvwg-le-phb<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; to version 3 with at least the following changes:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Update the DSCP recommendation to pick a DSCP from Pool =
3 (XXXX01),<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; either 1 or 5 (technical feedback on that appreciated).<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; For what it&#39;s worth, a student of ours, Michael Walter, is=
 running some measurements on this just now. I&#39;m waiting for a more det=
ailed report from him, but in preliminary results using a Tracebox-like met=
hodology on ~200k paths from a DigitalOcean node show that packets marked D=
SCP 46 are rewritten to DSCP 1 on about 300 paths, and to DSCP 5 on about 7=
00 paths. So DSCP 1 seems preferable to DSCP 5 on a &quot;not used in the I=
nternet&quot; sense, but both seem to be used on O(1e-3) paths.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for investigating this. DSCP 46 is EF and DSCP 1 and 5 are<=
br>
&gt;&gt; local-use right now. So this is IMHO a weird behavior.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes. A charitable explanation is a site that maps on ingress<br>
&gt; to a local use DSCP (or MPLS Traffic Class) but fails to remap<br>
&gt; correctly on egress. If there&#39;s one class that should be preserved=
<br>
&gt; end to end, it&#39;s EF.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Given the small percentage, I don&#39;t see real problems here.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Agreed.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Roland<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - Update to RFCXXXX (right now draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-1=
1):<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; put in a section (similar to section 6) that describes<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; changes to that RFC. To be clear here:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11 should not be updated, it sho=
uld<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; proceed to RFC as is. draft-ietf-tsvwg-le-phb, however, wo=
uld<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; add changes to that RFC, e.g.,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 +---------------+------+------<wbr>---+-------------=
+------------<wbr>--------+<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 | Low-Priority=C2=A0 | LE=C2=A0 =C2=A0| RFC(LE) |=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| AC_BK (Background) |<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Data=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 +-----------------------------<wbr>-----------------=
-------------<wbr>--------+<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It is, however, not clear to me whether to replace the exi=
sting<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; mapping or to add it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; - remove the LE-min, LE-strict discussion as it seems to b=
e ok<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; recommending a LE transport (e.g., LEDBAT++) on top if one=
 wants<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; LE-strict semantics.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Roland<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--94eb2c0779eefb18d6055e864651--


From nobody Tue Nov 21 22:34:44 2017
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] WGLC comments request for draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04.txt - to end Fri 8th Dec 2017
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Thank you Marcelo,

It is most helpful to have this info to know whether the document is 
ready to proceed.

Gorry


On 21/11/2017, 22:22, Marcelo Ricardo Leitner wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have no comments on it myself. Have used this Errata some time ago
> (we had rwnd/cwnd handling fixes on Linux stack because of the 
> errata), went over it again now, it LGTM and I don't think we (Linux 
> stack) have (major) discrepancies due to it.
>
> Thanks,
> Marcelo
>
> Em 17-11-2017 04:18, Gorry Fairhurst escreveu:
>>
>> Dear TSVWG WG,
>>
>> As we discussed during the TSVWG session today, the draft "RFC 4960 
>> Errata and Issues", is thought ready for publication and now ready 
>> for feedback. The latest version of the draft is available here:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc4960-errata-04
>>
>> This email starts a 3 week WGLC to allow time for folks to provide 
>> feedback, to conclude on Fri 8th Dec 2017. Please send comments 
>> indicating the usefulness of the draft, noting issues, or simply 
>> asking for clariification to this list (or to the WG Dhairs).
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Gorry, David and Wes
>> (TSVWG co-Chairs)
>>
>> The following people have agreed to also submit a review during the 
>> WGLC period:
>> Kacheong
>> Peter Lei
>> Irene Rungeler
>> Qiaobing Xie
>>
>>
>>


From nobody Mon Nov 27 15:52:42 2017
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Subject: [tsvwg] Protocol Action: 'Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Experimentation' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Relaxing Restrictions on Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
   Experimentation'
  (draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation-08.txt) as Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Transport Area Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Mirja Kühlewind and Spencer Dawkins.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-experimentation/





Technical Summary

   This memo updates RFC 3168, which specifies Explicit Congestion
   Notification (ECN) as a replacement for packet drops as indicators of
   network congestion.  It relaxes restrictions in RFC 3168 that would
   otherwise hinder experimentation towards benefits beyond just removal
   of loss.  The memo summarizes the anticipated areas of
   experimentation and updates RFC 3168 to enable experimentation in
   these areas.  An Experimental RFC is required to take advantage of
   any of these enabling updates.  In addition, this memo makes related
   updates to the ECN specifications for RTP in RFC 6679 and for DCCP in
   RFC 4341, RFC 4342 and RFC 5622.  The memo also records the
   conclusion of the ECN Nonce experiment in RFC 3540, and provides the
   rationale for reclassification of RFC 3540 as Historic; this
   reclassification enables new experimental use of the ECT(1)
   codepoint.

Working Group Summary

   The document was adopted by the working group to enable 
   two specific pieces of work - ABE (now in TCPM) and L4S 
   (now a working group item in TSVWG). Both these items of work 
   currently have experimental status, yet seek to modify the 
   ECN specification produced by TSVWG - specifically to obsolete 
   the ECN NONCE. This topic has been discussed in TSVWG 
   over many years and it is finally the consensus that the 
   experiment has concluded and that the ECN NONCE 
   specification is no longer recommended for deployment.

   Note that this specification is the supporting RFC for a 
   change of RFC 3540 (EXP) status to Historic. The actual
   status change document is 
   status-change-ecn-signaling-with-nonces-to-historic. 

Document Quality

   The document has received significant review by several people 
   in TSVWG - both as an individual submission and as as WG draft, 
   including detailed feedback from M Welzl and B Briscoe. 
   Minor updates were made in response to last call comments 
   and this document is therefore ready to proceed.

Personnel

   The Document Shepherd is  Gorry Fairhurst.
   The responsible Area Director is Spencer Dawkins.



From nobody Tue Nov 28 13:41:36 2017
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Warren Kumari has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: No Record

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly, I'd like to thank David Black for one of the best shepherd writeups
I've seen in a very long time. I'd also like to thank Sarah Banks for the nice
OpsDir writeup.

I had many of the same questions as Mirja - hopefully, they are being
addressed/answered.



From nobody Tue Nov 28 15:14:20 2017
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RFC 3540 has been reclassified as Historic.

        
        RFC 3540

        Title:      Robust Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) 
                    Signaling with Nonces 
        Author:     N. Spring,
                    D. Wetherall,
                    D. Ely
        Status:     Historic
        Stream:     IETF
        Date:       June 2003
        Pages:      13
        Characters: 30081
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-tsvwg-tcp-nonce-04.txt

        URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3540

        DOI:        10.17487/RFC3540

This note describes the Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)-nonce, an optional addition to ECN that protects against accidental or malicious concealment of marked packets from the TCP sender.  It improves the robustness of congestion control by preventing receivers from exploiting ECN to gain an unfair share of network bandwidth.  The ECN-nonce uses the two ECN-Capable Transport (ECT)codepoints in the ECN field of the IP header, and requires a flag in the TCP header.  It is computationally efficient for both routers and hosts. 

This document is a product of the Transport Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF.


HISTORIC: This memo defines a Historic Document for the Internet
community.  It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.
Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

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The RFC Editor Team
Association Management Solutions, LLC


From nobody Wed Nov 29 13:18:31 2017
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Roni, thanks for your review. I have entered a No Objection ballot.

Alissa

> On Oct 5, 2017, at 4:32 PM, Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review result: Ready
> 
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
> 
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
> 
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
> 
> Document: draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-??
> Reviewer: Roni Even
> Review Date: 2017-10-05
> IETF LC End Date: 2017-10-09
> IESG Telechat date: Not scheduled for a telechat
> 
> Summary:
> The document is ready for publication as a standard track RFC
> Major issues:
> 
> Minor issues:
> 
> Nits/editorial comments: 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Wed Nov 29 15:18:49 2017
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Editorial Comments:

- It might be helpful to make it clear early in the draft that "wireless" means
802.11, not LTE, etc. Section 1.2 sort of does that, but I think there's room
for stating it earlier and more strongly.

-1.5: There are a number of lower case instances of "must" and "should". If
that is intentional, please consider using the boilerplate from 8174 instead of
2119.



From nobody Wed Nov 29 15:41:16 2017
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Deborah Brungard has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: No Objection

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COMMENT:
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Agree with Mirja's comments, especially the category, I think this should be a BCP.
A BCP is a way to standardize practices and the results of community deliberations.
While the working group noted their desire for PS to "encourage consistent
implementation", this is the definition of a BCP.
A BCP "is designed to be a way to standardize practices" (RFC2026), it is not
informational.



From nobody Wed Nov 29 21:43:16 2017
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Subject: [tsvwg] Adam Roach's No Objection on draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: (with COMMENT)
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Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-tsvwg-ieee-802-11-09: No Objection

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COMMENT:
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Please expand the following acronyms upon first use; see
https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt for guidance.

 - RF - radio frequency
 - IPX - Internetwork Packet Exchange
 - GSMA-IPX
 - BSS
 - EIFS
 - NVO3


