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From: Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
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Folks,

The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
of weeks now. Please review!

	Cheers Leif


From nobody Sat Apr 18 08:16:20 2015
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<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>Sorry,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>but like a lot of people we are all busy,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>can you repeat the links,</div>

<div>without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have time,</div>

<div>possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div name="quote" style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;leifj@sunet.se&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;unbearable@ietf.org&quot; &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

<div name="quoted-content"><br/>
Folks,<br/>
<br/>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br/>
of weeks now. Please review!<br/>
<br/>
Cheers Leif<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
Unbearable mailing list<br/>
Unbearable@ietf.org<br/>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></div>
</div>
</div>
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--001a113f19e2f5c4b8051401422b
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Some links:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00

https://github.com/TokenBinding/

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, <D.Rogers@gmx.net> wrote:

> Sorry,
>
> but like a lot of people we are all busy,
>
> can you repeat the links,
> without wishing to sound like Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have
> time,
> possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them
> would be most useful brigadier :-)
>
> best
> Dean
>  *Gesendet:* Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr
> *Von:* "Leif Johansson" <leifj@sunet.se>
> *An:* "unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
> *Betreff:* [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
>
> Folks,
>
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
> of weeks now. Please review!
>
> Cheers Leif
>
> _______________________________________________
> Unbearable mailing list
> Unbearable@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
>
> _______________________________________________
> Unbearable mailing list
> Unbearable@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
>
>

--001a113f19e2f5c4b8051401422b
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Some links:<br><br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbin=
d-protocol-00</a><br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbi=
nd-https-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbin=
d-https-00</a><br><br><a href=3D"https://github.com/TokenBinding/">https://=
github.com/TokenBinding/</a><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:D.Rogers@gmx.net" target=3D"_blank">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Verdana;font-size:12.0px"><div>
<div>Sorry,</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div>

<div>but like a lot of people we are all busy,</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div>

<div>can you repeat the links,</div>

<div>without wishing to sound like=C2=A0Dr Who, you catch me at a time when=
 I have time,</div>

<div>possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine t=
hem would be most useful brigadier :-)</div>

<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>

<div>best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div name=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px 0px 10px=
 10px;border-left-color:rgb(195,217,229);border-left-width:2px;border-left-=
style:solid">
<div style=3D"margin:0px 0px 10px"><b>Gesendet:</b>=C2=A0Samstag, 18. April=
 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br>
<b>Von:</b>=C2=A0&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leifj@sun=
et.se" target=3D"_blank">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br>
<b>An:</b>=C2=A0&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:unbearable@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unbearable@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Betreff:</b>=C2=A0[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5">

<div name=3D"quoted-content"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br=
>
of weeks now. Please review!<br>
<br>
Cheers Leif<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Unbearable mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Unbearable@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Unbearable@ietf.or=
g</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Unbearable mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Unbearable@ietf.org">Unbearable@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 03:33:16PM +0200, Leif Johansson wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
> of weeks now. Please review!

Some points:

1) ALPN does not scale. Sadly, HTTP/2 has no way to perform server 
0RTT capability advertisment without TLS 1.3 (and even there,
it might not work with client certs) otherwise.

2) Following CFRG on signatures would be useful. They have
completed ECDH work and moved to signatures (which shouldn't
take too long to complete).

3) I expect somebody to complain about inventing a new key/
signature format instead of using existing ones (e.g. JOSE
or whatever TLS RPK uses). :-)

4) TLS-unique can't be synchronized without resumption (or
insecure renegotiation), even without EMS.

5) If one does not have HSM available, one should handle the
keys in dedicated process. Makes grabbing those keys more
annoying, to the point when the attacker can grab those,
you are likely toast anyway.

6) Why is referred binding restricted to 301 and 302? I can't
come up with a sensible category that only has 301 and 302.



-Ilari





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<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>Dear all,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div><a href="https://3c.gmx.net/mail/client/dereferrer?redirectUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00" target="_blank"><font color="#0066cc">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</font></a></div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>nit:</div>

<div>&quot;The Token Binding protocol allows client/server applications to&nbsp;create long-lived,&quot;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>just a semantic point but this is not yet proven so</div>

<div>&quot;The Token Binding protocol aims to allow client/server applications to create long-lived&quot; is better.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>purly semantic</div>

<div>&quot;The idea of Token Binding is to prevent such attacks by cryptographically binding security tokens to the TLS layer.&quot;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>shoud be</div>

<div>&quot;The idea of Token Binding is to prevent such attacks by cryptographically binding security tokens&nbsp;at the TLS layer.&quot;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Introduction:</div>

<div>&quot;Token Binding identifiers are never transmitted in clear text and can be reset by the user at any time, e.g. when clearing browser cookies.&quot;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>This sounds alarmist to most readers, meaning this should not be stated without further explanation, but the introduction is not the right place, so defer this&nbsp;until later.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>2. Token Binding Protocol Overview</div>

<div>&quot;This message is only sent if the client and server agree on the use of the Token Binding protocol.&quot;</div>

<div>Be specific on what happens when they do not agree. This is detailed later, but a re-wright for clarity would be benificial.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&quot;If the bound token came from a TLS connection without a Token Binding, or if the IDs don&#39;t match, the token is discarded.&quot;<br/>
<br/>
should be appended &quot;.. and the connection dropped.&quot; This is stated later, but to avoid confusion it should also be&nbsp;mentioned briefly&nbsp;at this point.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>
<div name="quote" style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:21 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Brian Campbell&quot; &lt;bcampbell@pingidentity.com&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;D.Rogers@gmx.net<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;unbearable@ietf.org&quot; &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

<div name="quoted-content">
<div>Some links:<br/>
<br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</a><br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a><br/>
<br/>
<a href="https://github.com/TokenBinding/" target="_blank">https://github.com/TokenBinding/</a></div>

<div class="gmail_extra">&nbsp;
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, <span>&lt;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px;">
<div>
<div>Sorry,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>but like a lot of people we are all busy,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>can you repeat the links,</div>

<div>without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have time,</div>

<div>possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;<a href="leifj@sunet.se" target="_parent">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br/>
Folks,<br/>
<br/>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br/>
of weeks now. Please review!<br/>
<br/>
Cheers Leif<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
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</div>
</div>
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</div>
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<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>Dear All,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div><a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a></div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>perhaps its a bit late to be raising this point but:</div>

<div>Abstract:</div>

<div>&quot;an HTTP server issues a security token (such as a cookie) to a client, and expects the client to send the security&nbsp;token back to the server at a later time in order to authenticate.&quot;</div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</div>

<div>Something in the challenge-response mechanism&nbsp;is missing here. Why does the HTTP Server issue the token, at this point there is no mention of a challenge prompting this response. What should the challenge look like? Basically this does not belong in the abstract.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&quot;Binding the token to the TLS connection between client and server protects the security token from theft, and ensures that the security&nbsp;token can only be used by the client that it was issued to.&quot;</div>

<div>This binding is not yet established, so ... &quot;and would ensure that the security&nbsp;token...&quot;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Please, I may have misunderstood something, but are we saying that a token issued by server A to client X may possibly be accepted by server B, surely this can only be the case on implicit trust between servers A and B?</div>

<div>Further, &quot;the client proves possession of (private key)&nbsp;to the server, and is long-lived (i.e.,&nbsp;subsequent TLS connections between the same client and server have&nbsp;the same Token Binding ID.&quot;</div>

<div>I still have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol. Where this is still the same client only time is lost. but I am afraid that&nbsp;should an attacker be able to generate such a failure they may be able to hijack the session.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Section 3.1 suggests that each client operate a large scale Key-management system, &quot;clients use different private keys to establish Provided Token Binding IDs with different servers&quot;.</div>

<div>Clients are clients and this should not be thier business.</div>

<div>It was with this, to my mind, major architectural conceptual misdiection&nbsp;that stoped my&nbsp;reading further.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>Salutem</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div name="quote" style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:21 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Brian Campbell&quot; &lt;bcampbell@pingidentity.com&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;D.Rogers@gmx.net<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;unbearable@ietf.org&quot; &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

<div name="quoted-content">
<div>Some links:<br/>
<br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</a><br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a><br/>
<br/>
<a href="https://github.com/TokenBinding/" target="_blank">https://github.com/TokenBinding/</a></div>

<div class="gmail_extra">&nbsp;
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, <span>&lt;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div>
<div style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px;">
<div>
<div>Sorry,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>but like a lot of people we are all busy,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>can you repeat the links,</div>

<div>without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have time,</div>

<div>possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;<a href="leifj@sunet.se" target="_parent">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br/>
Folks,<br/>
<br/>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br/>
of weeks now. Please review!<br/>
<br/>
Cheers Leif<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br/>
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&nbsp;</blockquote>
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From: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 11:19:06 -0600
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Not sure if this list or the github issue tracker is the right place for
review feedback so I'm gonna go with a bit of a hybrid model by sending
this link https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/10 to this
list.



On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:

>
> Folks,
>
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
> of weeks now. Please review!
>
>         Cheers Leif
>
> _______________________________________________
> Unbearable mailing list
> Unbearable@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Not sure if this list or the github issue tracker is the r=
ight place for review feedback so I&#39;m gonna go with a bit of a hybrid m=
odel by sending this link <a href=3D"https://github.com/TokenBinding/Intern=
et-Drafts/issues/10">https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues=
/10</a> to this list. <br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Leif Johansson <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leifj@sunet.se" target=3D"_blank">leifj=
@sunet.se</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br=
>
of weeks now. Please review!<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers Leif<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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issues on github, discussions of those issues here!

> 20 apr 2015 kl. 19:19 skrev Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>:
>=20
> Not sure if this list or the github issue tracker is the right place for r=
eview feedback so I'm gonna go with a bit of a hybrid model by sending this l=
ink https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/10 to this list.=20=

>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:
>>=20
>> Folks,
>>=20
>> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
>> of weeks now. Please review!
>>=20
>>         Cheers Leif
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Unbearable mailing list
>> Unbearable@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Unbearable mailing list
> Unbearable@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div>issues on github, discussio=
ns of those issues here!</div><div><br>20 apr 2015 kl. 19:19 skrev Brian Cam=
pbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com">bcampbell@pingidenti=
ty.com</a>&gt;:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Not sure if this list or the github issue tracker is the right place for re=
view feedback so I'm gonna go with a bit of a hybrid model by sending this l=
ink <a href=3D"https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/10">ht=
tps://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/10</a> to this list. <b=
r><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Leif Johansson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:leifj@sunet.se" target=3D"_blank">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Folks,<br>
<br>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br>=

of weeks now. Please review!<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Cheers Leif<br>
<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Unbearable@ietf.org">Unbearable@ietf.org</a><br>
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k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Unbearable mailing list</span><b=
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On 18 April 2015 at 06:33, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
> of weeks now. Please review!

I think that this should be one spec:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11

I think that this should not use ALPN:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/3

And though I still prefer it if everything were native to HTTP, I
believe that Dirk and Andrei believe the performance characteristics
of such a solution to be disastrously bad.  An TLS extension does at
least solve that problem, even if it is architecturally distasteful:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/4

No doubt there will be more once those have been sorted out, but
that's probably more than enough for now.


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From: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
To: Ilari Liusvaara <ilari.liusvaara@elisanet.fi>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, "Dirk Balfanz (balfanz@google.com)" <balfanz@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Hi Ilari,

1) Agreement has been reached in Dallas that we will define a new TLS exten=
sion to negotiate Token Binding key parameters, instead of using ALPN. I ho=
pe to publish a new I-D for the TLS extension, and update  draft-ietf-tokbi=
nd-protocol in the next 2-3 weeks.

2) We should certainly consider CFRG recommendation, once it's available.

3) The intent was to make this as straightforward as possible, and to reuse=
 TLS registries and structures.

4) But resumption and renegotiation do exist.

5) There are several ways to protect keys in SW; I'd rather not prescribe o=
ne of the possible solutions.

6) I believe this is because 301 and 302 are common ways to perform URL red=
irection, but Dirk may have a better justification.

Thanks,

Andrei

-----Original Message-----
From: Unbearable [mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ilari Li=
usvaara
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 9:58 AM
To: Leif Johansson
Cc: unbearable@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 03:33:16PM +0200, Leif Johansson wrote:
>=20
> Folks,
>=20
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a=20
> couple of weeks now. Please review!

Some points:

1) ALPN does not scale. Sadly, HTTP/2 has no way to perform server 0RTT cap=
ability advertisment without TLS 1.3 (and even there, it might not work wit=
h client certs) otherwise.

2) Following CFRG on signatures would be useful. They have completed ECDH w=
ork and moved to signatures (which shouldn't take too long to complete).

3) I expect somebody to complain about inventing a new key/ signature forma=
t instead of using existing ones (e.g. JOSE or whatever TLS RPK uses). :-)

4) TLS-unique can't be synchronized without resumption (or insecure renegot=
iation), even without EMS.

5) If one does not have HSM available, one should handle the keys in dedica=
ted process. Makes grabbing those keys more annoying, to the point when the=
 attacker can grab those, you are likely toast anyway.

6) Why is referred binding restricted to 301 and 302? I can't come up with =
a sensible category that only has 301 and 302.



-Ilari




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From: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>
Thread-Topic: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 22:35:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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> I think that this should be one spec:
It is very likely that we'll want to use Token Binding with protocols other=
 than HTTPS. Token Binding protocol message formats, key parameter negotiat=
ion, etc. are likely to be the same regardless of the application protocol,=
 but the encapsulation of Token Binding messages in the application protoco=
l will look different in each application protocol.

This is why I believe that keeping Token Binding protocol basics in a separ=
ate I-D is beneficial. In terms of presentation, we can certainly make impr=
ovements so that the two documents are more readable.

> I think that this should not use ALPN:
Yes, we've agreed on this in Dallas; I'll publish a new I-D for the TLS ext=
ension, and update  draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol in the next 2-3 weeks.

Cheers,

Andrei

-----Original Message-----
From: Unbearable [mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin T=
homson
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:10 AM
To: Leif Johansson
Cc: unbearable@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's

On 18 April 2015 at 06:33, Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se> wrote:
> The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a=20
> couple of weeks now. Please review!

I think that this should be one spec:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11

I think that this should not use ALPN:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/3

And though I still prefer it if everything were native to HTTP, I believe t=
hat Dirk and Andrei believe the performance characteristics of such a solut=
ion to be disastrously bad.  An TLS extension does at least solve that prob=
lem, even if it is architecturally distasteful:

https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/4

No doubt there will be more once those have been sorted out, but that's pro=
bably more than enough for now.

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From: Tony Arcieri <bascule@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2015 15:47:55 -0700
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To: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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--047d7b33cb18b95d4705142fb983
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On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> 1) Agreement has been reached in Dallas that we will define a new TLS
> extension to negotiate Token Binding key parameters, instead of using ALPN.
> I hope to publish a new I-D for the TLS extension, and update
> draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol in the next 2-3 weeks.


This is sounding better already...

-- 
Tony Arcieri

--047d7b33cb18b95d4705142fb983
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Apr 20, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Andrei Popov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">Andrei.Popov@microsoft=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">1) Agreement h=
as been reached in Dallas that we will define a new TLS extension to negoti=
ate Token Binding key parameters, instead of using ALPN. I hope to publish =
a new I-D for the TLS extension, and update=C2=A0 draft-ietf-tokbind-protoc=
ol in the next 2-3 weeks.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is sounding =
better already...</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_si=
gnature">Tony Arcieri<br></div>
</div></div>

--047d7b33cb18b95d4705142fb983--


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On 04/20/2015 11:54 PM, Andrei Popov wrote:
> Hi Ilari,
> 
> 1) Agreement has been reached in Dallas that we will define a new TLS extension to negotiate Token Binding key parameters, instead of using ALPN. I hope to publish a new I-D for the TLS extension, and update  draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol in the next 2-3 weeks.
> 

Why don't you make a note in the appropriate issue to this fact so we
don't have to revisit.




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From: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
To: Leif Johansson <leifj@sunet.se>, "unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Done. I've also added issue 12, based on implementation experience:

Token Binding ID includes tokenbinding_type field to indicate whether this =
is a Provided or Referred binding.

In the federation scenario, the client proves possession of the same Krp to=
 the RP (as Provided binding) and to the IDP (as Referred binding). If the =
IDP includes the Referred Token Binding ID in the token, the RP cannot dire=
ctly compare it with the Provided Token Binding ID established with the cli=
ent, because the first byte of the ID (tokenbinding_type) will be different=
.

We should provide guidance on this in draft-ietf-tokbind-https to avoid con=
fusion. The easiest thing to do is probably to exclude tokenbinding_type wh=
en comparing Token Binding IDs.

Cheers,

Andrei

-----Original Message-----
From: Unbearable [mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Leif Joh=
ansson
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 11:56 PM
To: unbearable@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's

On 04/20/2015 11:54 PM, Andrei Popov wrote:
> Hi Ilari,
>=20
> 1) Agreement has been reached in Dallas that we will define a new TLS ext=
ension to negotiate Token Binding key parameters, instead of using ALPN. I =
hope to publish a new I-D for the TLS extension, and update  draft-ietf-tok=
bind-protocol in the next 2-3 weeks.
>=20

Why don't you make a note in the appropriate issue to this fact so we don't=
 have to revisit.



_______________________________________________
Unbearable mailing list
Unbearable@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable


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From: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
In-Reply-To: <TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11/94863704@github.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:55:00 -0300
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References: <TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11@github.com> <TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11/94863704@github.com>
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] [Internet-Drafts] One spec (#11)
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If later on it makes sense to combine them the WG can decide that.

For the moment I personally agree with Andrel that keeping the bindings =
separate makes sense.

The conversations should probably be on the WG unbearable@ietf.org list =
or copied to it so that everyone sees them.

John B.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Andrei-Popov <notifications@github.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> It is very likely that we'll want to use Token Binding with protocols =
other than HTTPS. Token Binding protocol message formats, key parameter =
negotiation, etc. are likely to be the same regardless of the =
application protocol, but the encapsulation of Token Binding messages in =
the application protocol will look different in each application =
protocol.
>=20
> This is why I believe that keeping Token Binding protocol basics in a =
separate I-D is beneficial. In terms of presentation, we can certainly =
make improvements so that the two documents are more readable.
>=20
> =E2=80=94
> Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub =
<https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11#issuecomment-94=
863704>.
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">If later on it makes sense to combine them the WG can decide =
that.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For the moment =
I personally agree with Andrel that keeping the bindings separate makes =
sense.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
conversations should probably be on the WG <a =
href=3D"mailto:unbearable@ietf.org" class=3D"">unbearable@ietf.org</a> =
list or copied to it so that everyone sees them.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">John B.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Apr 21, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Andrei-Popov &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:notifications@github.com" =
class=3D"">notifications@github.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"">It is =
very likely that we'll want to use Token Binding with protocols other =
than HTTPS. Token Binding protocol message formats, key parameter =
negotiation, etc. are likely to be the same regardless of the =
application protocol, but the encapsulation of Token Binding messages in =
the application protocol will look different in each application =
protocol.</p><p class=3D"">This is why I believe that keeping Token =
Binding protocol basics in a separate I-D is beneficial. In terms of =
presentation, we can certainly make improvements so that the two =
documents are more readable.</p><p =
style=3D"font-size:small;-webkit-text-size-adjust:none;color:#666;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94<br class=3D"">Reply to this email directly or <a =
href=3D"https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11#issuecom=
ment-94863704" class=3D"">view it on GitHub</a>.<img alt=3D"" height=3D"1"=
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src=3D"https://github.com/notifications/beacon/AAD4J97FkqC5pIi6WMF7C2fFxL7=
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href=3D"https://github.com/TokenBinding/Internet-Drafts/issues/11#issuecom=
ment-94863704" class=3D"">
    <meta itemprop=3D"name" content=3D"View Issue" class=3D"">
  </div>
  <meta itemprop=3D"description" content=3D"View this Issue on GitHub" =
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</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>Hi Andrea,</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>yes, quite right, and of course if they perviously had the relevant cookie, resetablishing it is trivial. And someone not accepting cookies on principle would not have been authenticated in the first place. Bu this is more or less what I wrote previously. Which mechanism are we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>But I was more concerned with the&nbsp;key-management client-side issue. I have no&nbsp;proposed solution up my sleave, but&nbsp;it concerns me that like many others very often&nbsp;I am in hundreds of web-sites per day.</div>

<div>Added to this during any particular&nbsp;day I am using a Win-8 desktop, a Win-7 laptop, and an Android based Tablet. I am just thinking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an early stage.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>best,</div>

<div>Dean&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>

<div>&nbsp;
<div name="quote" style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Dienstag, 21. April 2015 um 00:03 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Andrei Popov&quot; &lt;Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;D.Rogers@gmx.net&quot; &lt;D.Rogers@gmx.net&gt;<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;unbearable@ietf.org&quot; &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Hi Dean,</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Thanks for the editorial comments; will rephrase in the next revision.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;"><span>&Oslash;<span style="font: 7pt/normal &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;"><span>&Oslash;<span style="font: 7pt/normal &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">I still have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">If the cookie is gone, the server will have to authenticate this client again. This is the case today; I don&rsquo;t think Token Binding is changing anything WRT this case.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Cheers,</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Andrei</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(225, 225, 225) currentColor currentColor; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; border-image: none;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> Unbearable [mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>D.Rogers@gmx.net<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 18, 2015 1:11 PM<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> unbearable@ietf.org<br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dear All,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;"><a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a></span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">perhaps its a bit late to be raising this point but:</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Abstract:</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&quot;an HTTP server issues a security token (such as a cookie) to a client, and expects the client to send the security&nbsp;token back to the server at a later time in order to authenticate.&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Something in the challenge-response mechanism&nbsp;is missing here. Why does the HTTP Server issue the token, at this point there is no mention of a challenge prompting this response. What should the challenge look like? Basically this does not belong in the abstract.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&quot;Binding the token to the TLS connection between client and server protects the security token from theft, and ensures that the security&nbsp;token can only be used by the client that it was issued to.&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">This binding is not yet established, so ... &quot;and would ensure that the security&nbsp;token...&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Please, I may have misunderstood something, but are we saying that a token issued by server A to client X may possibly be accepted by server B, surely this can only be the case on implicit trust between servers A and B?</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Further, &quot;the client proves possession of (private key)&nbsp;to the server, and is long-lived (i.e.,&nbsp;subsequent TLS connections between the same client and server have&nbsp;the same Token Binding ID.&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">I still have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol. Where this is still the same client only time is lost. but I am afraid that&nbsp;should an attacker be able to generate such a failure they may be able to hijack the session.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Section 3.1 suggests that each client operate a large scale Key-management system, &quot;clients use different private keys to establish Provided Token Binding IDs with different servers&quot;.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Clients are clients and this should not be thier business.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">It was with this, to my mind, major architectural conceptual misdiection&nbsp;that stoped my&nbsp;reading further.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Salutem</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dean</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(195, 217, 229); margin: 7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 8pt; border-image: none;">
<div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:21 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Brian Campbell&quot; &lt;<a href="bcampbell@pingidentity.com" target="_parent">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Some links:<br/>
<br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</a><br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a><br/>
<br/>
<a href="https://github.com/TokenBinding/" target="_blank">https://github.com/TokenBinding/</a></span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp; </span></p>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, &lt;<a>D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote: </span></p>

<blockquote style="border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; border-image: none; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 4.8pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Sorry,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">but like a lot of people we are all busy,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">can you repeat the links,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have time,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">best</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dean</span></p>
</div>

<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(195, 217, 229); margin: 7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 8pt; border-image: none;">
<div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;<a>leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a>unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a>unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br/>
<span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Folks,<br/>
<br/>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br/>
of weeks now. Please review!<br/>
<br/>
Cheers Leif<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
Unbearable mailing list<br/>
<a>Unbearable@ietf.org</a><br/>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><br/>
<span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">_______________________________________________<br/>
Unbearable mailing list<br/>
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&nbsp;</span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">_______________________________________________ Unbearable mailing list <a href="Unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">Unbearable@ietf.org</a> <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target="_blank"> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></span></p>
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From: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
To: "D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.net>
Thread-Topic: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family: Verdana;font-size: 12.0px;"><div>
<div>I just found a presentation of yours written together with Vinod &quot;The Token Binding Protocol.&quot; This is most useful.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&quot;<font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="3">In this case, the new cookie will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming the client and server have negotiated the use of Token Binding).&quot;</font></div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>This&nbsp;is now diagressing too far, but what I meant was that TLS relying on certs in a controlled environment may be fine, but I am not so happy about it in the wilder Internet. But I think I have answered my own question, which was that combining this with say&nbsp;HIP&nbsp;would not get us any further.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>&quot;<font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="3">Can you elaborate on the specific client-side scalability concerns?&quot;</font></div>

<div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri" size="3">&nbsp;</font></div>

<div>Sorry, no, no experimental data to share, just general concern. By scalability I dont just mean the volume of cookies on any one client machine, but also from home I use three different machines. different OS&#39;s, different browsers or versions, and add to that at work and at clients. I would like the servers I visit all to securely recognise me as the same person. Perhaps this was already addressed and I missed it.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>all the best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div name="quote" style="margin: 10px 5px 5px 10px; padding: 10px 0px 10px 10px; border-left-color: rgb(195, 217, 229); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; -ms-word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">
<div style="margin: 0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Mittwoch, 22. April 2015 um 19:29 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Andrei Popov&quot; &lt;Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;D.Rogers@gmx.net&quot; &lt;D.Rogers@gmx.net&gt;<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;unbearable@ietf.org&quot; &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</div>

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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;"><span>&Oslash;<span style="font: 7pt/normal &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Which mechanism are we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Are you talking about a scenario where the client deletes cookies (and token bindings), re-authenticates with the web site, and receives a new cookie? In this case, the new cookie will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming the client and server have negotiated the use of Token Binding).</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;"><span>&Oslash;<span style="font: 7pt/normal &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">But I was more concerned with the&nbsp;key-management client-side issue.</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in; margin-left: 0.5in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;"><span>&Oslash;<span style="font: 7pt/normal &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">I am just thinking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an early stage.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">If the client can manage cookies in a scalable manner, this client can probably be enhanced to also manage Token Binding keys in a scalable manner. Can you elaborate on the specific client-side scalability concerns?</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Cheers,</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Andrei</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> D.Rogers@gmx.net [mailto:D.Rogers@gmx.net]<br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:14 AM<br/>
<b>To:</b> Andrei Popov<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> unbearable@ietf.org<br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Aw: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<div>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Hi Andrea,</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">yes, quite right, and of course if they perviously had the relevant cookie, resetablishing it is trivial. And someone not accepting cookies on principle would not have been authenticated in the first place. Bu this is more or less what I wrote previously. Which mechanism are we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">But I was more concerned with the&nbsp;key-management client-side issue. I have no&nbsp;proposed solution up my sleave, but&nbsp;it concerns me that like many others very often&nbsp;I am in hundreds of web-sites per day.</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Added to this during any particular&nbsp;day I am using a Win-8 desktop, a Win-7 laptop, and an Android based Tablet. I am just thinking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an early stage.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">best,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dean&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp; </span></p>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;Dienstag, 21. April 2015 um 00:03 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Andrei Popov&quot; &lt;<a href="Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com" target="_parent">Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Hi Dean,</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Thanks for the editorial comments; will rephrase in the next revision.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;">&Oslash;</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 7pt;">&nbsp; </span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</span></p>

<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Wingdings; font-size: 11pt;">&Oslash;</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 7pt;">&nbsp; </span><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">I still have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">If the cookie is gone, the server will have to authenticate this client again. This is the case today; I don&rsquo;t think Token Binding is changing anything WRT this case.</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Cheers,</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Andrei</span></p>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>

<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri , sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"> Unbearable [<a href="unbearable-bounces@ietf.org" target="_parent">mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 18, 2015 1:11 PM<br/>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a><br/>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dear All,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;"><a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a></span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">perhaps its a bit late to be raising this point but:</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Abstract:</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&quot;an HTTP server issues a security token (such as a cookie) to a client, and expects the client to send the security&nbsp;token back to the server at a later time in order to authenticate.&quot;</span></p>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Something in the challenge-response mechanism&nbsp;is missing here. Why does the HTTP Server issue the token, at this point there is no mention of a challenge prompting this response. What should the challenge look like? Basically this does not belong in the abstract.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&quot;Binding the token to the TLS connection between client and server protects the security token from theft, and ensures that the security&nbsp;token can only be used by the client that it was issued to.&quot;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">This binding is not yet established, so ... &quot;and would ensure that the security&nbsp;token...&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Please, I may have misunderstood something, but are we saying that a token issued by server A to client X may possibly be accepted by server B, surely this can only be the case on implicit trust between servers A and B?</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Further, &quot;the client proves possession of (private key)&nbsp;to the server, and is long-lived (i.e.,&nbsp;subsequent TLS connections between the same client and server have&nbsp;the same Token Binding ID.&quot;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">I still have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol. Where this is still the same client only time is lost. but I am afraid that&nbsp;should an attacker be able to generate such a failure they may be able to hijack the session.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Section 3.1 suggests that each client operate a large scale Key-management system, &quot;clients use different private keys to establish Provided Token Binding IDs with different servers&quot;.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Clients are clients and this should not be thier business.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">It was with this, to my mind, major architectural conceptual misdiection&nbsp;that stoped my&nbsp;reading further.</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Salutem</span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dean</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor windowtext; margin: 7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 8pt; border-image: none;">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:21 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Brian Campbell&quot; &lt;<a>bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;<a>D.Rogers@gmx.net</a><br/>
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a>unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a>unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
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<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Some links:<br/>
<br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</a><br/>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a><br/>
<br/>
<a href="https://github.com/TokenBinding/" target="_blank">https://github.com/TokenBinding/</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp; </span></p>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, &lt;<a href="D.Rogers@gmx.net" target="_parent">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote: </span></p>

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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Sorry,</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">but like a lot of people we are all busy,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">can you repeat the links,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you catch me at a time when I have time,</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">possibly its the same for others, quick links without having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">best</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Dean</span></p>
</div>

<div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; border-style: none none none solid; border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor windowtext; margin: 7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 8pt; border-image: none;">
<div style="margin-bottom: 7.5pt;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr<br/>
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;&quot;Leif Johansson&quot; &lt;<a href="leifj@sunet.se" target="_parent">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;&quot;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href="unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">unbearable@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br/>
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00&#39;s</span></p>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br/>
<span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">Folks,<br/>
<br/>
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br/>
of weeks now. Please review!<br/>
<br/>
Cheers Leif<br/>
<br/>
_______________________________________________<br/>
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</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><br/>
<span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">_______________________________________________<br/>
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&nbsp;</span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">_______________________________________________ Unbearable mailing list <a>Unbearable@ietf.org</a> <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target="_blank"> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Verdana , sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">_______________________________________________ Unbearable mailing list <a href="Unbearable@ietf.org" target="_parent">Unbearable@ietf.org</a> <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable" target="_blank"> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></span></p>
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:20:49 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bill Mills <wmills_92105@yahoo.com>
To: "D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.net>,  Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
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"Sorry, no, no experimental data to share, just general concern. By scalabi=
lity I dont just mean the volume of cookies on any one client machine, but =
also from home I use three different machines. different OS's, different br=
owsers or versions, and add to that at work and at clients. I would like th=
e servers I visit all to securely recognise me as the same person. Perhaps =
this was already addressed and I missed it."=C2=A0That's outside the scope,=
 this isn't shared state/authentication across N browsers/devices. =C2=A0Th=
at is possible, but it would require an SSO solution on the device/box that=
 allows sharing of secrets and credentials across apps each of which could =
then use a bound token per these specs.=20



     On Thursday, April 23, 2015 2:13 PM, "D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.=
net> wrote:
  =20

 I just found a presentation of yours written together with Vinod "The Toke=
n Binding Protocol." This is most useful.=C2=A0"In this case, the new cooki=
e will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming the client and serve=
r have negotiated the use of Token Binding)."=C2=A0This=C2=A0is now diagres=
sing too far, but what I meant was that TLS relying on certs in a controlle=
d environment may be fine, but I am not so happy about it in the wilder Int=
ernet. But I think I have answered my own question, which was that combinin=
g this with say=C2=A0HIP=C2=A0would not get us any further.=C2=A0"Can you e=
laborate on the specific client-side scalability concerns?"=C2=A0Sorry, no,=
 no experimental data to share, just general concern. By scalability I dont=
 just mean the volume of cookies on any one client machine, but also from h=
ome I use three different machines. different OS's, different browsers or v=
ersions, and add to that at work and at clients. I would like the servers I=
 visit all to securely recognise me as the same person. Perhaps this was al=
ready addressed and I missed it.=C2=A0all the bestDean=C2=A0Gesendet:=C2=A0=
Mittwoch, 22. April 2015 um 19:29 Uhr
Von:=C2=A0"Andrei Popov" <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
An:=C2=A0"D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.net>
Cc:=C2=A0"unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
Betreff:=C2=A0Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's=C3=98=C2=A0 Which mechani=
sm are we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?=C2=A0Are you=
 talking about a scenario where the client deletes cookies (and token bindi=
ngs), re-authenticates with the web site, and receives a new cookie? In thi=
s case, the new cookie will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming=
 the client and server have negotiated the use of Token Binding).=C3=98=C2=
=A0 But I was more concerned with the=C2=A0key-management client-side issue=
.=C3=98=C2=A0 I am just thinking that scaleability should be built into sol=
utions at an early stage.If the client can manage cookies in a scalable man=
ner, this client can probably be enhanced to also manage Token Binding keys=
 in a scalable manner. Can you elaborate on the specific client-side scalab=
ility concerns?=C2=A0Cheers,=C2=A0Andrei=C2=A0From: D.Rogers@gmx.net [mailt=
o:D.Rogers@gmx.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:14 AM
To: Andrei Popov
Cc: unbearable@ietf.org
Subject: Aw: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's=C2=A0Hi Andrea,=C2=A0yes, =
quite right, and of course if they perviously had the relevant cookie, rese=
tablishing it is trivial. And someone not accepting cookies on principle wo=
uld not have been authenticated in the first place. Bu this is more or less=
 what I wrote previously. Which mechanism are we relying on to prevent hyja=
cking the returned cookie?=C2=A0=C2=A0But I was more concerned with the=C2=
=A0key-management client-side issue. I have no=C2=A0proposed solution up my=
 sleave, but=C2=A0it concerns me that like many others very often=C2=A0I am=
 in hundreds of web-sites per day.Added to this during any particular=C2=A0=
day I am using a Win-8 desktop, a Win-7 laptop, and an Android based Tablet=
. I am just thinking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an=
 early stage.=C2=A0best,Dean=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Gesendet:=C2=A0Dienstag, 21.=
 April 2015 um 00:03 Uhr
Von:=C2=A0"Andrei Popov" <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
An:=C2=A0"D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.net>
Cc:=C2=A0"unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
Betreff:=C2=A0Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00'sHi Dean,=C2=A0Thanks for t=
he editorial comments; will rephrase in the next revision.=C2=A0=C3=98=C2=
=A0 What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier cach=
e after the token/cookie is received?=C3=98=C2=A0 I still have the same con=
ceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole proces=
s has to=C2=A0start from the beginning and the client has to prove they are=
 still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challe=
nge response protocol.If the cookie is gone, the server will have to authen=
ticate this client again. This is the case today; I don=E2=80=99t think Tok=
en Binding is changing anything WRT this case.=C2=A0Cheers,=C2=A0Andrei=C2=
=A0From: Unbearable [mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D.Rog=
ers@gmx.net
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 1:11 PM
Cc: unbearable@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's=C2=A0Dear All,=C2=A0http://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00=C2=A0perhaps its a bit late to=
 be raising this point but:Abstract:"an HTTP server issues a security token=
 (such as a cookie) to a client, and expects the client to send the securit=
y=C2=A0token back to the server at a later time in order to authenticate."=
=C2=A0What happens if exactly at that moment the the client clears thier ca=
che after the token/cookie is received?Something in the challenge-response =
mechanism=C2=A0is missing here. Why does the HTTP Server issue the token, a=
t this point there is no mention of a challenge prompting this response. Wh=
at should the challenge look like? Basically this does not belong in the ab=
stract.=C2=A0"Binding the token to the TLS connection between client and se=
rver protects the security token from theft, and ensures that the security=
=C2=A0token can only be used by the client that it was issued to."This bind=
ing is not yet established, so ... "and would ensure that the security=C2=
=A0token..."=C2=A0Please, I may have misunderstood something, but are we sa=
ying that a token issued by server A to client X may possibly be accepted b=
y server B, surely this can only be the case on implicit trust between serv=
ers A and B?Further, "the client proves possession of (private key)=C2=A0to=
 the server, and is long-lived (i.e.,=C2=A0subsequent TLS connections betwe=
en the same client and server have=C2=A0the same Token Binding ID."I still =
have the same conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone=
 the whole process has to=C2=A0start from the beginning and the client has =
to prove they are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3r=
d leg of a challenge response protocol. Where this is still the same client=
 only time is lost. but I am afraid that=C2=A0should an attacker be able to=
 generate such a failure they may be able to hijack the session.=C2=A0Secti=
on 3.1 suggests that each client operate a large scale Key-management syste=
m, "clients use different private keys to establish Provided Token Binding =
IDs with different servers".Clients are clients and this should not be thie=
r business.It was with this, to my mind, major architectural conceptual mis=
diection=C2=A0that stoped my=C2=A0reading further.=C2=A0SalutemDean=C2=A0Ge=
sendet:=C2=A0Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:21 Uhr
Von:=C2=A0"Brian Campbell" <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>
An:=C2=A0D.Rogers@gmx.net
Cc:=C2=A0"unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
Betreff:=C2=A0Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00'sSome links:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00

https://github.com/TokenBinding/=C2=A0 On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, <D.=
Rogers@gmx.net> wrote:=20
Sorry,=C2=A0but like a lot of people we are all busy,=C2=A0can you repeat t=
he links,without wishing to sound like=C2=A0Dr Who, you catch me at a time =
when I have time,possibly its the same for others, quick links without havi=
ng to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)=C2=A0bestDeanGesendet:=
=C2=A0Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:33 Uhr
Von:=C2=A0"Leif Johansson" <leifj@sunet.se>
An:=C2=A0"unbearable@ietf.org" <unbearable@ietf.org>
Betreff:=C2=A0[Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
Folks,

The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple
of weeks now. Please review!

Cheers Leif

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
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Unbearable@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________ Unbearable mailing list Unb=
earable@ietf.org  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable_________=
______________________________________ Unbearable mailing list Unbearable@i=
etf.org  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable__________________=
_____________________________ Unbearable mailing list Unbearable@ietf.org h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1429813882990_84539" style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Verdana;" class=3D"">"Sorry, no, no experimental data to share, just =
general concern. By scalability I dont just mean the volume of cookies on a=
ny one client machine, but also from home I use three different machines. d=
ifferent OS's, different browsers or versions, and add to that at work and =
at clients. I would like the servers I visit all to securely recognise me a=
s the same person. Perhaps this was already addressed and I missed it."</di=
v><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1429813882990_84545" style=3D"font-family: Verdan=
a;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1429813882990_84545" sty=
le=3D"font-family: Verdana;" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr">That's outside the scop=
e, this isn't shared state/authentication across N browsers/devices. &nbsp;=
That is possible, but it would require an SSO solution on the device/box th=
at allows sharing of secrets and credentials across apps each of which coul=
d then use a bound token per these specs.</div>  <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
" style=3D"" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1429813882990_86478"><br class=3D"" style=
=3D""></div><br><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"ya=
hoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica=
Neue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 12px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvet=
ica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr">=
 <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Thursday, April 23, 2015 2:13 PM, "D.R=
ogers@gmx.net" &lt;D.Rogers@gmx.net&gt; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br>=
 <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv4991872422"><div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Verdana;font-size:12.0px;"><div>
<div>I just found a presentation of yours written together with Vinod "The =
Token Binding Protocol." This is most useful.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>"<font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3">In this case, the=
 new cookie will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming the client=
 and server have negotiated the use of Token Binding)."</font></div>

<div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>This&nbsp;is now diagressing too far, but what I meant was that TLS re=
lying on certs in a controlled environment may be fine, but I am not so hap=
py about it in the wilder Internet. But I think I have answered my own ques=
tion, which was that combining this with say&nbsp;HIP&nbsp;would not get us=
 any further.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>"<font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3">Can you elaborate=
 on the specific client-side scalability concerns?"</font></div>

<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"3">&nbsp;</font></div=
>

<div>Sorry, no, no experimental data to share, just general concern. By sca=
lability I dont just mean the volume of cookies on any one client machine, =
but also from home I use three different machines. different OS's, differen=
t browsers or versions, and add to that at work and at clients. I would lik=
e the servers I visit all to securely recognise me as the same person. Perh=
aps this was already addressed and I missed it.</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div>all the best</div>

<div>Dean</div>

<div>&nbsp;</div>

<div style=3D"margin:10px 5px 5px 10px;padding:10px 0px 10px 10px;border-le=
ft-color:rgb(195, 217, 229);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;"=
>
<div style=3D"margin:0px 0px 10px;"><b>Gesendet:</b>&nbsp;Mittwoch, 22. Apr=
il 2015 um 19:29 Uhr<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;"Andrei Popov" &lt;Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;"D.Rogers@gmx.net" &lt;D.Rogers@gmx.net&gt;<br clear=3D"non=
e">
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;"unbearable@ietf.org" &lt;unbearable@ietf.org&gt;<br clear=
=3D"none">
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</div>

<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422yqt2884746371" id=3D"yiv4991872422yqt53735"><div=
 class=3D"yiv4991872422WordSection1">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt;"=
><span>=C3=98<span style=3D"font:7pt/normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Which mechan=
ism are we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?&nbsp;</span=
></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Are you talking about a =
scenario where the client deletes cookies (and token bindings), re-authenti=
cates with the web site, and receives a new cookie? In this case, the new c=
ookie will be bound to the new Token Binding Key (assuming the client and s=
erver have negotiated the use of Token Binding).</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt;"=
><span>=C3=98<span style=3D"font:7pt/normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">But I was mo=
re concerned with the&nbsp;key-management client-side issue.</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt;"=
><span>=C3=98<span style=3D"font:7pt/normal;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><=
span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">I am just th=
inking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an early stage.<=
/span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">If the client can manage=
 cookies in a scalable manner, this client can probably be enhanced to also=
 manage Token Binding keys in a scalable manner. Can you elaborate on the s=
pecific client-side scalability concerns?</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Cheers,</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Andrei</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(225, 225, 225) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0i=
n;">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=
 , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;"> D.Rogers@gmx.net [mailto:D.Rogers@gmx=
.net]<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:14 AM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>To:</b> Andrei Popov<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b> unbearable@ietf.org<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Aw: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</span></div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal">&nbsp;</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Hi Andrea,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">yes, quite right, and of course if they pervious=
ly had the relevant cookie, resetablishing it is trivial. And someone not a=
ccepting cookies on principle would not have been authenticated in the firs=
t place. Bu this is more or less what I wrote previously. Which mechanism a=
re we relying on to prevent hyjacking the returned cookie?&nbsp;</span></di=
v>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">But I was more concerned with the&nbsp;key-manag=
ement client-side issue. I have no&nbsp;proposed solution up my sleave, but=
&nbsp;it concerns me that like many others very often&nbsp;I am in hundreds=
 of web-sites per day.</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Added to this during any particular&nbsp;day I a=
m using a Win-8 desktop, a Win-7 laptop, and an Android based Tablet. I am =
just thinking that scaleability should be built into solutions at an early =
stage.</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">best,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Dean&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp; </span></div>

<div style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(195, 2=
17, 229);margin:7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;">
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt;">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana=
 , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;Dienstag, 21. April 2015 um 00=
:03 Uhr<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;"Andrei Popov" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=
=3D"">Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;"<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">D.Rogers@gmx.=
net</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">D.Rogers@gmx.net<=
/a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;"<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@ie=
tf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Hi Dean,</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Thanks for the editorial=
 comments; will rephrase in the next revision.</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoListParagraph" style=3D""><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt;">=C3=98</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:7pt;">&nbsp; </span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">What happens if exactl=
y at that moment the the client clears thier cache after the token/cookie i=
s received?</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoListParagraph" style=3D""><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-family:Wingdings;font-size:11pt;">=C3=98</span><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:7pt;">&nbsp; </span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">I still have the same =
conceptual problem with cache flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole pro=
cess has to&nbsp;start from the beginning and the client has to prove they =
are still the same client. In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a cha=
llenge response protocol.</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">If the cookie is gone, t=
he server will have to authenticate this client again. This is the case tod=
ay; I don=E2=80=99t think Token Binding is changing anything WRT this case.=
</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Cheers,</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">Andrei</span></div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31, 73, 125)=
;font-family:Calibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>

<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:windowtext currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0in 0in;">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=
 , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:C=
alibri , sans-serif;font-size:11pt;"> Unbearable [<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"">mailto:unbearable-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of=
 </b><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a><br c=
lear=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 18, 2015 1:11 PM<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@ietf.org=
</a><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</span></div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal">&nbsp;</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Dear All,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00</a></span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">perhaps its a bit late to be raising this point =
but:</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Abstract:</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">"an HTTP server issues a security token (such as=
 a cookie) to a client, and expects the client to send the security&nbsp;to=
ken back to the server at a later time in order to authenticate."</span></d=
iv>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">What happens if exactly at that moment the the c=
lient clears thier cache after the token/cookie is received?</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Something in the challenge-response mechanism&nb=
sp;is missing here. Why does the HTTP Server issue the token, at this point=
 there is no mention of a challenge prompting this response. What should th=
e challenge look like? Basically this does not belong in the abstract.</spa=
n></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">"Binding the token to the TLS connection between=
 client and server protects the security token from theft, and ensures that=
 the security&nbsp;token can only be used by the client that it was issued =
to."</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">This binding is not yet established, so ... "and=
 would ensure that the security&nbsp;token..."</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Please, I may have misunderstood something, but =
are we saying that a token issued by server A to client X may possibly be a=
ccepted by server B, surely this can only be the case on implicit trust bet=
ween servers A and B?</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Further, "the client proves possession of (priva=
te key)&nbsp;to the server, and is long-lived (i.e.,&nbsp;subsequent TLS co=
nnections between the same client and server have&nbsp;the same Token Bindi=
ng ID."</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">I still have the same conceptual problem with ca=
che flushing, if the cookie is gone the whole process has to&nbsp;start fro=
m the beginning and the client has to prove they are still the same client.=
 In other words re-establish the 3rd leg of a challenge response protocol. =
Where this is still the same client only time is lost. but I am afraid that=
&nbsp;should an attacker be able to generate such a failure they may be abl=
e to hijack the session.</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Section 3.1 suggests that each client operate a =
large scale Key-management system, "clients use different private keys to e=
stablish Provided Token Binding IDs with different servers".</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Clients are clients and this should not be thier=
 business.</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">It was with this, to my mind, major architectura=
l conceptual misdiection&nbsp;that stoped my&nbsp;reading further.</span></=
div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Salutem</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Dean</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor windowtext=
;margin:7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;">
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt;">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana=
 , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 17:=
21 Uhr<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;"Brian Campbell" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" hr=
ef=3D"">bcampbell@pingidentity.com</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">D.Rogers@gmx.n=
et</a><br clear=3D"none">
<b>Cc:</b>&nbsp;"<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@ie=
tf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Some links:<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-ietf-tokbind-protocol-00</a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-tokbind-https-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-tokbind-https-00</a><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://github=
.com/TokenBinding/">https://github.com/TokenBinding/</a></span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp; </span></div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 9:16 AM, &lt;<a rel=3D"n=
ofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">D.Rogers@gmx.net</a>&gt; wrote: </span></=
div>

<blockquote style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:non=
e none none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor windo=
wtext;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Sorry,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">but like a lot of people we are all busy,</span>=
</div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">can you repeat the links,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">without wishing to sound like&nbsp;Dr Who, you c=
atch me at a time when I have time,</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">possibly its the same for others, quick links wi=
thout having to mine them would be most useful brigadier :-)</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">best</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Dean</span></div>
</div>

<div style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none non=
e none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor windowtext=
;margin:7.5pt 3.75pt 3.75pt 7.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8pt;">
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:7.5pt;">
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana=
 , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Gesendet:</span></b><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">&nbsp;Samstag, 18. April 2015 um 15:=
33 Uhr<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Von:</b>&nbsp;"Leif Johansson" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" hr=
ef=3D"">leifj@sunet.se</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>An:</b>&nbsp;"<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@ie=
tf.org</a>" &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">unbearable@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none">
<b>Betreff:</b>&nbsp;[Unbearable] reviewing our 00's</span></div>
</div>

<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">Folks,<br c=
lear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
The core drafts have been out and published as WG documents for a couple<br=
 clear=3D"none">
of weeks now. Please review!<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
Cheers Leif<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
Unbearable mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">Unbearable@ietf.org</a><br cle=
ar=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/u=
nbearable</a></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"none">
<span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">___________=
____________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
Unbearable mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">Unbearable@ietf.org</a><br cle=
ar=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/unbearable">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/u=
nbearable</a><br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">_______________________________________________ =
Unbearable mailing list <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">Unbear=
able@ietf.org</a> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=
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/mailman/listinfo/unbearable</a></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

<div class=3D"yiv4991872422MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Verdana , =
sans-serif;font-size:9pt;">_______________________________________________ =
Unbearable mailing list <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"">Unbear=
able@ietf.org</a> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=
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</div></div>
_______________________________________________ Unbearable mailing list Unb=
earable@ietf.org <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=
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</div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"yqt2884746371" id=3D"yqt52320">__=
_____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Unbearable =
mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Unbearab=
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From: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
To: "D.Rogers@gmx.net" <D.Rogers@gmx.net>
Thread-Topic: Re: [Unbearable] reviewing our 00's
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