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Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 14:05:53 +0200
From: Mykyta Yevstifeyev <evnikita2@gmail.com>
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Hello all,

WG documents 2141bis, 3406bis and others haven't been updated for, at 
the moment, nearly 3 months.  Moreover, there are no discussions on the 
WG mailing list, and they haven;t occurred for nearly 1.5 months.  My 
question is - what is going to be done in th near future?  WG was 
chartered to:

> Feb 2011 WGLC on rfc2141bis, rfc3406bis, rfc3187bis-isbn-urn and 
> rfc3188bis-nbn-urn 

And nothing like this occurred.

Mykyta Yevstifeyev

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    <font size="-1"><big>Hello all,<br>
        <br>
        WG documents 2141bis, 3406bis and others haven't been updated
        for, at the moment, nearly 3 months.  Moreover, there are no
        discussions on the WG mailing list, and they haven;t occurred
        for nearly 1.5 months.  My question is - what is going to be
        done in th near future?  WG was chartered to:<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">Feb 2011 WGLC on rfc2141bis, rfc3406bis,
          rfc3187bis-isbn-urn and rfc3188bis-nbn-urn </blockquote>
        <br>
        And nothing like this occurred.<br>
        <br>
        Mykyta Yevstifeyev<br>
      </big></font>
  </body>
</html>

--------------040404050404000401070304--

From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Sun Mar  6 23:00:20 2011
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Hello Mykyta,

2141bis and 3406bis were written by Alfred Hönes who has been very busy 
lately and unable to invest time on producing 01 versions of these 
drafts. This task, however, has not been passed to somebody else, since 
I have understood that Alfred will be able to continue editing these 
texts in the future.

As regards the URN syntax, the key issue - at least from my point of 
view - that should be discussed more widely is the usage of <fragment> 
and <query> in the way suggested in RFC2141bis. The reason why it is 
vital to make firm decisions concerning these features is that there are 
projects that intend to use both of them, and must have explicit 
permission and guidelines for doing that.

I have been responsible of the I-Ds RFC3187bis and RFC3188bis. Both of 
these texts were released originally as individual contributions prior 
to publication as a WG contribution. There is a need for further 
revisions, but as far as I am concerned only after there is an agreement 
on the content of 2141bis and 3406bis. For instance, it is likely that 
the NBN namespace will support fragment identifiers (if fragments are 
allowed), while no such need exists for ISBN namespace.

The ISSN (International Standard Serial Number) International Centre 
(http://www.issn.org/) is working on RFC3044bis. I do not know when they 
will be able to publish I-D version 0; the ISSN standard was revised a 
few years ago in such a way that major revision of RFC 3044 is necessary.

In the current situation it is not possible to extend the charter of the 
URNBIS WG; the existing drafts must reach the WGLC status first. 
Nevertheless I have asked Andrew Newton if it were a good idea to 
prepare and send to the list a memo on the need to revise RFC 2483, URI 
resolution services necessary for URN resolution. Andrew said that 
others may find such a document helpful too, so I will proceed with this.

The problem in a nutshell is that RFC 2483 is experimental and based on 
the best understanding the community had in the late 90s. Since then we 
have built functional URN resolution services, digital asset management 
systems have matured and digital preservation systems have emerged. 
There are also other persistent identifier systems which provide 
services that are beyond the scope of RFC 2483. Given this background, 
it is not suprising that some URN-based projects such as PersID have 
identified additional services that could / should be supported by the 
URN system.

Since we know now that the list of services that can / should be 
supported will change over time when the technology changes, I believe 
that a less rigid system than specifying the services in a standards 
track RFC is needed. IANA registry of resolution formal / informal / 
experimental URN resolution services is one option.

More about this later this week.

Best regards,

Juha Hakala

Mykyta Yevstifeyev wrote:
>    Hello all,
> 
> WG documents 2141bis, 3406bis and others haven't been updated for, at 
> the moment, nearly 3 months.  Moreover, there are no discussions on the 
> WG mailing list, and they haven;t occurred for nearly 1.5 months.  My 
> question is - what is going to be done in th near future?  WG was 
> chartered to:
> 
>> Feb 2011 WGLC on rfc2141bis, rfc3406bis, rfc3187bis-isbn-urn and 
>> rfc3188bis-nbn-urn 
> 
> And nothing like this occurred.
> 
> Mykyta Yevstifeyev
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From andy@hxr.us  Tue Mar  8 16:51:35 2011
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All,

Our session for IETF 80 will be on Thursday, 31 March from 1300-1500
(Afternoon Session I).

I will be putting together an agenda for our session soon. If you have
any requests for agenda time, please send me a message. My inclination
is to structure our session for as much high-bandwidth, face-to-face
discussion as possible and save consensus calls and as much
administrative work as possible strictly for the mailing list.

-andy

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Tue Mar  8 20:49:52 2011
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<hat type=3D'individual'/>

On 3/8/11 5:52 PM, Andrew Newton wrote:
> All,
>=20
> Our session for IETF 80 will be on Thursday, 31 March from 1300-1500
> (Afternoon Session I).
>=20
> I will be putting together an agenda for our session soon. If you have
> any requests for agenda time, please send me a message. My inclination
> is to structure our session for as much high-bandwidth, face-to-face
> discussion as possible and save consensus calls and as much
> administrative work as possible strictly for the mailing list.

Always a good policy. :)

It seems to me that we could spend quite a bit of time on the issues the
big issues that Juha mentioned the other day:

   As regards the URN syntax, the key issue - at least from my point of
   view - that should be discussed more widely is the usage of
   <fragment> and <query> in the way suggested in RFC2141bis. The
   reason why it is vital to make firm decisions concerning these
   features is that there are projects that intend to use both of them,
   and must have explicit permission and guidelines for doing that.

But his entire message is worth pondering:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/urn/current/msg01507.html

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Wed Mar  9 01:10:32 2011
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Subject: Re: [urn] Meeting in Prague for IETF 80
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On 2011/03/09 13:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> <hat type='individual'/>
>
> On 3/8/11 5:52 PM, Andrew Newton wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> Our session for IETF 80 will be on Thursday, 31 March from 1300-1500
>> (Afternoon Session I).
>>
>> I will be putting together an agenda for our session soon. If you have
>> any requests for agenda time, please send me a message. My inclination
>> is to structure our session for as much high-bandwidth, face-to-face
>> discussion as possible and save consensus calls and as much
>> administrative work as possible strictly for the mailing list.
>
> Always a good policy. :)
>
> It seems to me that we could spend quite a bit of time on the issues the
> big issues that Juha mentioned the other day:
>
>     As regards the URN syntax, the key issue - at least from my point of
>     view - that should be discussed more widely is the usage of
>     <fragment>  and<query>  in the way suggested in RFC2141bis.

I haven't exactly been able to figure out what RFC2141bis is proposing 
for fragment identifiers. One reason is that as it is currently written, 
it contains way too much meta stuff explicitly discussing changes to its 
predecessor, rather than just new stuff. Noting issues in an ID can 
sometimes be extremely helpful, but going as far as to point out 
explicit and obvious clerical errors in the previous version rather than 
just fix them seems overkill.

Anyway, from a higher-up view, RFC2141bis is defining the "urn:" URI 
scheme, and URI scheme definitions in general are supposed to say 
nothing (or just a little in some exceptional cases) on fragment 
identifiers. The reason for this is that fragment identifiers are 
defined per MIME Media Type, not per URI scheme.

So if I have something like "urn:foo:bar:baz#here", then the urn spec 
only has to say what "urn:foo:bar:baz" is supposed to mean, the meaning 
of "here" is defined by whatever format I might get back when resolving 
"urn:foo:bar:baz". If I have a browser that resolves (some) urns (I 
don't know one, but there should be some), this is what already happens, 
and it shouldn't and won't change. RFC2141bis doesn't have to say 
anything for this to work.

In case RFC2141bis tries to do anything else than the above, that would 
be a very bad idea, and should be fixed quickly.

That's quite different from the query part; if the urn spec wants to 
allow a "?" and some following stuff, it can do so, and it can put on 
the syntactic restrictions (as long as they are within the bounds of the 
URI spec) and semantic restrictions the WG deems appropriate.

Regards,   Martin.


>     The
>     reason why it is vital to make firm decisions concerning these
>     features is that there are projects that intend to use both of them,
>     and must have explicit permission and guidelines for doing that.
>
> But his entire message is worth pondering:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/urn/current/msg01507.html
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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URN guys,

=20

To support a new proposal for the PKIX working group, it would be useful
to have a standard syntax for unique identifiers based on cryptographic
hashes.  An Internet Draft was published in 2003 defining a suitable URN
namespace (http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thiemann-hash-urn-01.txt), but
it was never published as an RFC.

=20

Does anyone remember this draft, or know the reasons for its failure to
progress (issues to be resolved, or simple lack of follow-up)?   If it
were submitted today, I'd suggest using base64 encoding instead of
base32, but otherwise it appears to perfectly fit a need.

=20

Thanks,

Dave Kemp


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xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
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xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>URN =
guys,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>To support a new proposal for the PKIX working group, =
it would be useful to have a standard syntax for unique identifiers =
based on cryptographic hashes.&nbsp; An Internet Draft was published in =
2003 defining a suitable URN namespace =
(http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thiemann-hash-urn-01.txt), but it was =
never published as an RFC.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Does anyone =
remember this draft, or know the reasons for its failure to progress =
(issues to be resolved, or simple lack of follow-up)?&nbsp;&nbsp; If it =
were submitted today, I&#8217;d suggest using base64 encoding instead of =
base32, but otherwise it appears to perfectly fit a =
need.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dave =
Kemp<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:44:33 -0700
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Cc: info@cbuid.org, urn@ietf.org, "MILLER, TIMOTHY J CTR USAF AFMC ESC/HNCDP" <timothy.miller.27.ctr@us.af.mil>
Subject: Re: [urn] URN for hash namespaces
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On 3/9/11 8:05 AM, Kemp, David P. wrote:
> URN guys,
>=20
> To support a new proposal for the PKIX working group, it would be usefu=
l
> to have a standard syntax for unique identifiers based on cryptographic=

> hashes.  An Internet Draft was published in 2003 defining a suitable UR=
N
> namespace (http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thiemann-hash-urn-01.txt), bu=
t
> it was never published as an RFC.
>=20
> Does anyone remember this draft, or know the reasons for its failure to=

> progress (issues to be resolved, or simple lack of follow-up)?   If it
> were submitted today, I=E2=80=99d suggest using base64 encoding instead=
 of
> base32, but otherwise it appears to perfectly fit a need.

I don't know the history, but feel free to resurrect it. :)

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From prvs=104268806f=timothy.miller.27.ctr@us.af.mil  Wed Mar  9 08:20:29 2011
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From: "MILLER, TIMOTHY J CTR USAF AFMC ESC/HNCDP" <timothy.miller.27.ctr@us.af.mil>
To: "Kemp, David P." <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil>, "urn@ietf.org" <urn@ietf.org>, "info@cbuid.org" <info@cbuid.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:21:36 -0600
Thread-Topic: URN for hash namespaces
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Subject: Re: [urn] URN for hash namespaces
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Personally I think UUID version 5 suffices, for which there is already an R=
FC defining URN syntax, but it would be nice to extend it for hash agility.=
  I did once track down an ITU-T area representative to discuss the idea, b=
ut I got the impression it would be more work than it was probably worth.

//SIGNED//=20

Timothy J. Miller, FFRDC, ESC/HNCDP=20
(The MITRE Corporation)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kemp, David P. [mailto:DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 9:06 AM
> To: urn@ietf.org; info@cbuid.org
> Cc: Kemp, David P.; MILLER, TIMOTHY J CTR USAF AFMC ESC/HNCDP
> Subject: URN for hash namespaces
>=20
> URN guys,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> To support a new proposal for the PKIX working group, it would be useful =
to have a standard syntax for unique
> identifiers based on cryptographic hashes.  An Internet Draft was publish=
ed in 2003 defining a suitable URN
> namespace (http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-thiemann-hash-urn-01.txt), but =
it was never published as an RFC.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Does anyone remember this draft, or know the reasons for its failure to p=
rogress (issues to be resolved, or
> simple lack of follow-up)?   If it were submitted today, I'd suggest usin=
g base64 encoding instead of base32,
> but otherwise it appears to perfectly fit a need.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> Dave Kemp


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--------------ms050709060004040107050303
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On 3/9/11 9:21 AM, MILLER, TIMOTHY J CTR USAF AFMC ESC/HNCDP wrote:

> Personally I think UUID version 5 suffices, for which there is
> already an RFC defining URN syntax, but it would be nice to extend it
> for hash agility.  I did once track down an ITU-T area representative
> to discuss the idea, but I got the impression it would be more work
> than it was probably worth.

You mean RFC 4122? Yes, that would serve the same purpose.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:30:25 -0700
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Subject: [urn] fragment identifiers (was: Re: Meeting in Prague for IETF 80)
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<hat type=3D'individual'/>

On 3/9/11 2:11 AM, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote:
>=20
> On 2011/03/09 13:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>> It seems to me that we could spend quite a bit of time on the issues t=
he
>> big issues that Juha mentioned the other day:
>>
>>     As regards the URN syntax, the key issue - at least from my point =
of
>>     view - that should be discussed more widely is the usage of
>>     <fragment>  and<query>  in the way suggested in RFC2141bis.
>=20
> I haven't exactly been able to figure out what RFC2141bis is proposing
> for fragment identifiers. One reason is that as it is currently written=
,
> it contains way too much meta stuff explicitly discussing changes to it=
s
> predecessor, rather than just new stuff. Noting issues in an ID can
> sometimes be extremely helpful, but going as far as to point out
> explicit and obvious clerical errors in the previous version rather tha=
n
> just fix them seems overkill.
>=20
> Anyway, from a higher-up view, RFC2141bis is defining the "urn:" URI
> scheme, and URI scheme definitions in general are supposed to say
> nothing (or just a little in some exceptional cases) on fragment
> identifiers. The reason for this is that fragment identifiers are
> defined per MIME Media Type, not per URI scheme.
>=20
> So if I have something like "urn:foo:bar:baz#here", then the urn spec
> only has to say what "urn:foo:bar:baz" is supposed to mean, the meaning=

> of "here" is defined by whatever format I might get back when resolving=

> "urn:foo:bar:baz". If I have a browser that resolves (some) urns (I
> don't know one, but there should be some), this is what already happens=
,
> and it shouldn't and won't change. RFC2141bis doesn't have to say
> anything for this to work.
>=20
> In case RFC2141bis tries to do anything else than the above, that would=

> be a very bad idea, and should be fixed quickly.

Here is what RFC 3986 says:

   The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
   representations that might result from a retrieval action on the
   primary resource.  The fragment's format and resolution is therefore
   dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved
   representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the
   URI is dereferenced.  If no such representation exists, then the
   semantics of the fragment are considered unknown and are effectively
   unconstrained.  Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the
   URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications.

As far as I can see, the semantics of fragment identifiers in URNs would
not be defined by media types because URNs are not generally resolved
for the purpose of retrieving a representation. Therefore, in the
context of URNs, the semantics of the fragment would be considered
unknown and would be effectively unconstrained (at least from the
perspective of the 'urn:' URI scheme).

2141bis seems to imply that the semantics of the fragment identifier
could be constrained by the definition of a particular URN namespace
(despite the fact that they are not constrained by the 'urn:' URI scheme
itself). I'm not sure what the use cases are here, but perhaps folks on
the list could explain a bit more what they mean by reusing an
identifier scheme that designates objects of such complexity that it is
necessary to reference parts of the objects via fragment identifiers.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Thu Mar 10 02:13:31 2011
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Subject: Re: [urn] fragment identifiers
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Hello Peter,

I have cross-posted to the URI list, because I think it's important to 
get input from more experts. People on the URI list, this is about what 
to do (or not to do) about fragment identifiers in URNs, raised in the 
context of an update of RFC 2141.

On 2011/03/10 13:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> <hat type='individual'/>
>
> On 3/9/11 2:11 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote:
>>
>> On 2011/03/09 13:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>> Anyway, from a higher-up view, RFC2141bis is defining the "urn:" URI
>> scheme, and URI scheme definitions in general are supposed to say
>> nothing (or just a little in some exceptional cases) on fragment
>> identifiers. The reason for this is that fragment identifiers are
>> defined per MIME Media Type, not per URI scheme.
>>
>> So if I have something like "urn:foo:bar:baz#here", then the urn spec
>> only has to say what "urn:foo:bar:baz" is supposed to mean, the meaning
>> of "here" is defined by whatever format I might get back when resolving
>> "urn:foo:bar:baz". If I have a browser that resolves (some) urns (I
>> don't know one, but there should be some), this is what already happens,
>> and it shouldn't and won't change. RFC2141bis doesn't have to say
>> anything for this to work.
>>
>> In case RFC2141bis tries to do anything else than the above, that would
>> be a very bad idea, and should be fixed quickly.
>
> Here is what RFC 3986 says:
>
>     The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
>     representations that might result from a retrieval action on the
>     primary resource.  The fragment's format and resolution is therefore
>     dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved
>     representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the
>     URI is dereferenced.  If no such representation exists, then the
>     semantics of the fragment are considered unknown and are effectively
>     unconstrained.  Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the
>     URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications.
>
> As far as I can see, the semantics of fragment identifiers in URNs would
> not be defined by media types because URNs are not generally resolved
> for the purpose of retrieving a representation.

"not generally" and "not" are not the same. Even for http: URIs, it's 
true that they are not always resolved. So in that sense, if I use
http://never_any_server_here.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp/one/two/three
with some fragment identifier (I'm in control of sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp and 
make sure that there never is a server at 
never_any_server_here.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp), then I'm indeed unconstrained.

On the other hand, for quite a few URNs, it would make a lot of sense to 
resolve them. Let's say I have set up some proxy or use some dedicated 
browser that helps me resolve some URNs. Then the paragraph from RFC 
3986 that you cite above clearly applies.

> Therefore, in the
> context of URNs, the semantics of the fragment would be considered
> unknown and would be effectively unconstrained (at least from the
> perspective of the 'urn:' URI scheme).

Non sequitur.

> 2141bis seems to imply that the semantics of the fragment identifier
> could be constrained by the definition of a particular URN namespace
> (despite the fact that they are not constrained by the 'urn:' URI scheme
> itself).

That would make at least some limited sense, if we could sort namespaces 
by whether they (maybe only occasionally) allow resolution, or whether 
they are absolutely and terminally never ever going to be used for 
resolution. But the last sentence from the paragraph you cite says:

                    Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the
    URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications.

This not only means that the URN spec (which is just the definition of 
the 'urn:' URI scheme) cannot redefine fragment identifier semantics, it 
also seems to imply that scheme specifications (including the URN spec) 
cannot delegate such semantics to some subspaces of the scheme.

> I'm not sure what the use cases are here, but perhaps folks on
> the list could explain a bit more what they mean by reusing an
> identifier scheme that designates objects of such complexity that it is
> necessary to reference parts of the objects via fragment identifiers.

I'm looking forward to hear from other people on this list, but 
essentially even if there are very complex objects, there are always 
different ways to identify components than using a '#'.

Regards,   Martin.

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Thu Mar 10 04:27:39 2011
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Hello Martin; all,

A few comments below.

Martin J. Dürst wrote:
> Hello Peter,
> 
> I have cross-posted to the URI list, because I think it's important to 
> get input from more experts. People on the URI list, this is about what 
> to do (or not to do) about fragment identifiers in URNs, raised in the 
> context of an update of RFC 2141.

For the URN community this issue is important because there are 
initiatives which are eager to use fragment identifiers. I have heard 
rumours that some are already using them. A typical use case would be a 
very complex data such as structured research data set within which many 
kinds of data should be separately described, identified and retrieved.
> 
> On 2011/03/10 13:30, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> <hat type='individual'/>
>>
>> On 3/9/11 2:11 AM, "Martin J. Dürst" wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2011/03/09 13:51, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> 
>>> Anyway, from a higher-up view, RFC2141bis is defining the "urn:" URI
>>> scheme, and URI scheme definitions in general are supposed to say
>>> nothing (or just a little in some exceptional cases) on fragment
>>> identifiers. The reason for this is that fragment identifiers are
>>> defined per MIME Media Type, not per URI scheme.
>>>
>>> So if I have something like "urn:foo:bar:baz#here", then the urn spec
>>> only has to say what "urn:foo:bar:baz" is supposed to mean, the meaning
>>> of "here" is defined by whatever format I might get back when resolving
>>> "urn:foo:bar:baz". If I have a browser that resolves (some) urns (I
>>> don't know one, but there should be some), this is what already happens,
>>> and it shouldn't and won't change. RFC2141bis doesn't have to say
>>> anything for this to work.
>>>
>>> In case RFC2141bis tries to do anything else than the above, that would
>>> be a very bad idea, and should be fixed quickly.
>>
>> Here is what RFC 3986 says:
>>
>>     The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
>>     representations that might result from a retrieval action on the
>>     primary resource.  The fragment's format and resolution is therefore
>>     dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved
>>     representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the
>>     URI is dereferenced.  If no such representation exists, then the
>>     semantics of the fragment are considered unknown and are effectively
>>     unconstrained.  Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the
>>     URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications.
>>
>> As far as I can see, the semantics of fragment identifiers in URNs would
>> not be defined by media types because URNs are not generally resolved
>> for the purpose of retrieving a representation.
> 
> "not generally" and "not" are not the same. Even for http: URIs, it's 
> true that they are not always resolved. So in that sense, if I use
> http://never_any_server_here.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp/one/two/three
> with some fragment identifier (I'm in control of sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp and 
> make sure that there never is a server at 
> never_any_server_here.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp), then I'm indeed unconstrained.
> 
> On the other hand, for quite a few URNs, it would make a lot of sense to 
> resolve them. Let's say I have set up some proxy or use some dedicated 
> browser that helps me resolve some URNs. Then the paragraph from RFC 
> 3986 that you cite above clearly applies.

Persistent identifiers will be used for multiple purposes, and by the 
time we assign e.g. a URN to a resource, we have no idea which 
resolution  services will be needed in the (distant) future. Lifetime of 
a PID may be centuries; applications and the functionality they offer 
will change many times during such a period. And eventually even the 
copyright protection of a document will expire ;-).

Retrieving a representation is one the key resolution services supplied 
already. But there does not need to be a 1:1 relation between a URN (or 
any other persistent identifier) and the URI (URL/URLs) it maps to via a 
resolution service.

For example, consider:

DOI: 10.1016/B978-0-240-81330-1.00007-5

This is a real Digital Object Identifier based on ISBN of Tomlinson 
Holman's Sound for film and television (3rd ed.), but please note that 
this DOI does not identify the entire book, but just a chapter within 
it. The final section of the DOI suffix (00007-5) signifies the second 
chapter of the book. Each chapter has its own DOI, and they will most 
likely be available for purchase as individual files, so the URIs these 
DOIs resolve to will not have <fragment>s in them. But if the above 
"extended ISBN" were expressed as URN, we might come up with something like:

URN:ISBN:978-0-240-81330-1#00007-5

if this were the way in which identifiers for book chapters were 
expressed according to the ISBN standard and in the ISBN namespace. This 
URN would then resolve to the same PDF file as the DOI above, either in 
the same digital library or in some other digital asset management 
system.

>> Therefore, in the
>> context of URNs, the semantics of the fragment would be considered
>> unknown and would be effectively unconstrained (at least from the
>> perspective of the 'urn:' URI scheme).
> 
> Non sequitur.
> 
>> 2141bis seems to imply that the semantics of the fragment identifier
>> could be constrained by the definition of a particular URN namespace
>> (despite the fact that they are not constrained by the 'urn:' URI scheme
>> itself).

Yes; some namespaces / identifier systems will not allow usage of 
<fragment> since the syntax of the identifier does not support such a 
thing. For instance, the example shown above

URN:ISBN:978-0-240-81330-1#00007-5, or ISBN string

ISBN 978-0-240-81330-1#00007-5

is imaginary, since ISBN standard does not actually support this. DOI 
does, and one might also construct national bibliography numbers (NBNs) 
and consequently URNs which consist of ISBN and fragment identifier. 
Thus DOI namespace (if one is registered in the future) and NBN 
namespace should support <fragment>, if we are to give free hands to 
people using these identifiers in the URN context.

> That would make at least some limited sense, if we could sort namespaces 
> by whether they (maybe only occasionally) allow resolution, or whether 
> they are absolutely and terminally never ever going to be used for 
> resolution. 

Based on what I have said before, I don't think that resolution is the 
crucial factor here. And if I am wrong and it is, then any namespace may 
allow resolution at some point in the future when the requirements of 
the user community change.

But the last sentence from the paragraph you cite says:
> 
>                    Fragment identifier semantics are independent of the
>    URI scheme and thus cannot be redefined by scheme specifications.
> 
> This not only means that the URN spec (which is just the definition of 
> the 'urn:' URI scheme) cannot redefine fragment identifier semantics, it 
> also seems to imply that scheme specifications (including the URN spec) 
> cannot delegate such semantics to some subspaces of the scheme.

Yes.
> 
>> I'm not sure what the use cases are here, but perhaps folks on
>> the list could explain a bit more what they mean by reusing an
>> identifier scheme that designates objects of such complexity that it is
>> necessary to reference parts of the objects via fragment identifiers.

I can give one practical example from my own library.

Like many other national libraries, we digitise old books. The outcome 
of the process is a METS container, within which the full text of the 
book is stored in structured XML (METS/ALTO). The structure expresses 
chapters, and some information objects such as images.

Each chapter has currently its own URN:NBN, so in addition to being able 
to provide a persistent link to the title page of the book, such links 
can also be made to the chapters and other component parts of the book. 
We believe that some users will find such functionality useful (and they 
will also be happy when the URNs will still be functional many years 
from now, unlike many URIs that were thought to be cool).

If usage of <fragment> is allowed in RFC2141bis and within the NBN 
namespace, we might change the current policy and assign just one 
URN:NBN to the book itself, and then fragment identifiers based on the 
NBN to the chapters and other component parts of the book. Our URN 
resolver would be able to map these URN:NBNs to the correct component 
parts within the METS container (or any other container standard we will 
rely on in the future.

> I'm looking forward to hear from other people on this list, but 
> essentially even if there are very complex objects, there are always 
> different ways to identify components than using a '#'.

True - in our case, the national library of Finland can continue the 
current policy and assign an NBN to each component part. Nevertheless, 
it may be a good idea to allow choice between two different approaches. 
In some cases, using <fragment> can be more convenient than assigning 
individual identifiers. Research data sets come to mind; perhaps 
somebody from that community can describe the requirements?

Best regards,

Juha
> 
> Regards,   Martin.
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Mar 10 04:42:07 2011
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On 10.03.2011 13:28, Juha Hakala wrote:
> ...
> Persistent identifiers will be used for multiple purposes, and by the
> time we assign e.g. a URN to a resource, we have no idea which
> resolution services will be needed in the (distant) future. Lifetime of
> a PID may be centuries; applications and the functionality they offer
> will change many times during such a period. And eventually even the
> copyright protection of a document will expire ;-).
> ...

I think that statement in itself rules out use of fragment identifiers. 
At least if you want to stay in sync with the URI spec (RFC 3986).

> Retrieving a representation is one the key resolution services supplied
> already. But there does not need to be a 1:1 relation between a URN (or
> any other persistent identifier) and the URI (URL/URLs) it maps to via a
> resolution service.
> ...

Even if there *was* a one-to-one mapping, the representation could still 
vary based on request header fields (content negotiation), and also over 
time.

Best regards, Julian

From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Thu Mar 10 06:02:55 2011
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Hello,

Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 10.03.2011 13:28, Juha Hakala wrote:
>> ...
>> Persistent identifiers will be used for multiple purposes, and by the
>> time we assign e.g. a URN to a resource, we have no idea which
>> resolution services will be needed in the (distant) future. Lifetime of
>> a PID may be centuries; applications and the functionality they offer
>> will change many times during such a period. And eventually even the
>> copyright protection of a document will expire ;-).
>> ...
> 
> I think that statement in itself rules out use of fragment identifiers. 
> At least if you want to stay in sync with the URI spec (RFC 3986).

Can you explain why this would be the case? Please see below why I find 
it difficult to agree.

>> Retrieving a representation is one the key resolution services supplied
>> already. But there does not need to be a 1:1 relation between a URN (or
>> any other persistent identifier) and the URI (URL/URLs) it maps to via a
>> resolution service.
>> ...
> 
> Even if there *was* a one-to-one mapping, the representation could still 
> vary based on request header fields (content negotiation), and also over 
> time.

In the future, the applications preserving and delivering past digital 
resources will usually be a long term preservation systems (such as Ex 
Libris' Rosetta), hosted by national libraries / national archives or 
other organisations which are legally obliged to store certain types 
documents (publications, radio and tv programs, government publications) 
for future generations.

Eventually, these systems will contain multiple versions of a resource, 
produced via migrations of successive versions of resource. Each version 
(or manifestation, as we call them) must be kept to make roll-back 
possible, and will have its own identifier that will never change. When 
a new version is made, it will get a new identifier, even if the new and 
old document have the same look and feel.

If a certain version of a resource has an internal structure, and the 
component parts have fragment level persistent identifiers, then those 
identifiers will remain functional for this particular version of the 
resource. Earlier and later versions may not have a similar structure, 
but if so, they will not have similar identifier architecture.

 From the national library's point of view I do accept the view that 
manifestations of works will change over time, but identifier - 
manifestation -links will not, at least in well managed digital archives 
and URN namespaces. A URN given to PDF version of Mr. Teppo Sarkamo's 
dissertation (http://urn.fi/URN:ISBN:978-952-10-6832-4) will never 
change. When a new version of the book is produced, it will get 
different URN:ISBN.

One may of course argue that most systems in which URNs are to be used 
will not be built in this manner and that therefore most identified 
resources will change in more or less subtle manner over time. My take 
on this is that different URN namespaces may / will have different 
policies, and this may have an impact on many things, including the 
usage of fragments. But there are namespaces where identifying fragments 
may make sense, also when done using the URI <fragment> functionality.

Juha
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From julian.reschke@gmx.de  Thu Mar 10 06:11:50 2011
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On 10.03.2011 15:04, Juha Hakala wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 10.03.2011 13:28, Juha Hakala wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Persistent identifiers will be used for multiple purposes, and by the
>>> time we assign e.g. a URN to a resource, we have no idea which
>>> resolution services will be needed in the (distant) future. Lifetime of
>>> a PID may be centuries; applications and the functionality they offer
>>> will change many times during such a period. And eventually even the
>>> copyright protection of a document will expire ;-).
>>> ...
>>
>> I think that statement in itself rules out use of fragment
>> identifiers. At least if you want to stay in sync with the URI spec
>> (RFC 3986).
>
> Can you explain why this would be the case? Please see below why I find
> it difficult to agree.
> ...

<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.html#rfc.section.3.5>:

"The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of 
representations that might result from a retrieval action on the primary 
resource. The fragment's format and resolution is therefore dependent on 
the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved representation, even 
though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced. If 
no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are 
considered unknown and are effectively unconstrained. Fragment 
identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus cannot 
be redefined by scheme specifications."

I think this is pretty clear -- if you *can* have representations, 
you're constrained by the media types that are used as representations. 
There's no way avoiding that if you want to stay aligned with the URI spec.

Best regards, Julian

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Mar 10 06:36:13 2011
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On 3/10/11 7:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 10.03.2011 15:04, Juha Hakala wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 10.03.2011 13:28, Juha Hakala wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>> Persistent identifiers will be used for multiple purposes, and by th=
e
>>>> time we assign e.g. a URN to a resource, we have no idea which
>>>> resolution services will be needed in the (distant) future. Lifetime=
 of
>>>> a PID may be centuries; applications and the functionality they offe=
r
>>>> will change many times during such a period. And eventually even the=

>>>> copyright protection of a document will expire ;-).
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> I think that statement in itself rules out use of fragment
>>> identifiers. At least if you want to stay in sync with the URI spec
>>> (RFC 3986).
>>
>> Can you explain why this would be the case? Please see below why I fin=
d
>> it difficult to agree.
>> ...
>=20
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.html#rfc.section.3.5>:
>=20
> "The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
> representations that might result from a retrieval action on the primar=
y
> resource. The fragment's format and resolution is therefore dependent o=
n
> the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved representation, eve=
n
> though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced. I=
f
> no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are
> considered unknown and are effectively unconstrained. Fragment
> identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus cannot
> be redefined by scheme specifications."
>=20
> I think this is pretty clear -- if you *can* have representations,
> you're constrained by the media types that are used as representations.=

> There's no way avoiding that if you want to stay aligned with the URI s=
pec.

Another way to put it is that you can have representations or free-form
semantics, but not both (because along with representations come the
constraints of media types, according to RFC 3986).

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From: "Evain, Jean-Pierre" <evain@ebu.ch>
To: 'Juha Hakala' <juha.hakala@helsinki.fi>, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:34:26 +0100
Thread-Topic: [urn] fragment identifiers
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Subject: Re: [urn] fragment identifiers
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From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Thu Mar 10 22:51:28 2011
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Subject: Re: [urn] fragment identifiers
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Hello,

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 3/10/11 7:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 10.03.2011 15:04, Juha Hakala wrote:

>>> ...
>> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc3986.html#rfc.section.3.5>:
>>
>> "The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
>> representations that might result from a retrieval action on the primary
>> resource. The fragment's format and resolution is therefore dependent on
>> the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved representation, even
>> though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced. If
>> no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are
>> considered unknown and are effectively unconstrained. Fragment
>> identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus cannot
>> be redefined by scheme specifications."
>>
>> I think this is pretty clear -- if you *can* have representations,
>> you're constrained by the media types that are used as representations.
>> There's no way avoiding that if you want to stay aligned with the URI spec.
> 
> Another way to put it is that you can have representations or free-form
> semantics, but not both (because along with representations come the
> constraints of media types, according to RFC 3986).

I see now where the problem lies. But it is necessary to consider the 
additional complexity that URN resolution brings in.

Depending on the namespace, the relation between an identifier and a 
representation can be complex. For instance, a manifestation of an 
e-book with a single identifier can consist of multiple files (each 
representing a chapter), each file having its own URL. Or, an identifier 
may be assigned to a resource which is just a component part within a 
larger structured resource (for instance, a metadata record within JPEG 
2000 file).

What are the options RFC 3986 allows in such a case? It is OK if the URN 
resolves to list of URLs (those of the files from which the resource 
consists of). But it seems that adding <fragment> to the e-book NBN to 
enable retrieval of individual chapters (files) is against the spirit of 
RFC 3986. Resolving a URN with no <fragment> into a component part of a 
resource such as embedded metadata within an XML file may or may not be 
a philosophical problem (technical implementation is possible).

Anyway, it seems that there is a mismatch between the requirements of 
the RFC 3986and the way in which some identifier systems are (will be) 
used as URNs, because RFC 3986 does not take into account the 
functionality embedded into URN resolution services.

After URN has been resolved to one or more URLs, there is no longer a 
conflict with the stipulations of RFC 3986; these URLs must be aligned 
with the data types of the files retrieved. Such alignment may also 
exist between a URN and the thing it resolves to, but to require that 
this should always be the case may put some counterproductive 
constraints on the usage of standard identifiers as URNs.

Best regards,

Juha


> 
> Peter
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From GK-lists@ninebynine.org  Fri Mar 11 06:19:11 2011
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Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> "The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
>> representations that might result from a retrieval action on the primary
>> resource. The fragment's format and resolution is therefore dependent on
>> the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved representation, even
>> though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced. If
>> no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are
>> considered unknown and are effectively unconstrained. Fragment
>> identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus cannot
>> be redefined by scheme specifications."
>>
>> I think this is pretty clear -- if you *can* have representations,
>> you're constrained by the media types that are used as representations.
>> There's no way avoiding that if you want to stay aligned with the URI spec.
> 
> Another way to put it is that you can have representations or free-form
> semantics, but not both (because along with representations come the
> constraints of media types, according to RFC 3986).

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "free-form semantics".  For RDF, we 
weasel-worded our way out of this by linking the semantics of the 
URI-with-fragment to the RDF representation associated with the URI.

-- http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-fragID

So this is a form of semantics that is quite generic in its applicability, but 
it may not be what you mean by "free form", since it is bound to the semantics 
of RDF (http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/).

There's also some interesting W3C TAG discussion nearby...

http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#fragid
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/abstractComponentRefs
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Nov/0000.html
... etc.

#g



From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Mon Mar 14 02:45:55 2011
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Subject: [urn] Revision of URI resolution services
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Hello all,

Revision of RFC 2483 (URI resolution services necessary for URN 
resolution) is not included in the charter of URNBIS WG at the moment. 
The purpose of this message is to explain why the revision of this 
(experimental) RFC might be a good idea. Comments are welcome!

Best regards,

Juha Hakala

------------------

Revision of URI resolution services

Many operations can be performed on a URI. For URNs, services that can 
be provided have been specified in experimental RFC 2483. These services 
are:

I2L 	URI to URL
I2Ls 	URI to URLs
I2R	URI to resource
I2Rs	URI to resources
I2C	URI to URC, metadata about the resource)
I2Cs	URI to URCs
I2N	URI to URN
I2Ns	URI to URNs
I=I	Is URI equal to URI)

This list represents the very best understanding and the expertise the 
URN community (including myself as a lurker) had in late 90s. Since 
then, the technological environment in which persistent identifiers are 
or can be used has changed drastically. Long term preservation systems 
such as Tessella’s Safety Deposit Box and Ex Libris’ Rosetta are among 
the key applications that require persistent identification of archived 
resources and resource-related metadata. Compared with "traditional" 
digital asset management systems, they require a extended set of 
resolution services.

On the other hand, various persistent identifier systems such as ARK, 
DOI, Handle alongside URN) have been in production since late 90s, and 
millions of PIDs have been assigned. Our understanding of technical 
issues and solutions related to the resolution of persistent identifiers 
has increased. There is no agreement, though: some persistent 
identifiers enable services not included in RFC 2483; for instance, with 
ARK it is possible to make a permanence policy request concerning the 
identified resource.

A few URN-related conclusions can be drawn from the developments of the 
last decade:

1. The services listed in RFC 2483 are no longer sufficient

2. Given the continuous technical change, it is unlikely that anyone can 
produce a list of resolution services that would remain valid for long

3. Therefore the mechanism for specifying new URN resolution services 
should be flexible, and allow services on different levels of maturity 
or applicability

These conclusions apply to basically every persistent identifier system.

As regards the URN system, the following recommendations can be made:

1. Add revision of RFC 2483 to the charter of URNBIS WG (once the WG has 
completed its current tasks)

2. Instead of trying to update the list of URN resolution services in 
RFC 2483, the WG should produce RFC 2483bis which defines a mechanism 
for specification of formal, informal and experimental URI resolution 
services. An IANA registry, similar to the registry for URN namespaces, 
is one option.

3. Using the mechanism outlined in RFC2483bis,the URNBIS working group 
and (later) URN implementers should create an extended set of resolution 
services based on & compliant with those listed in RFC 2483.

4. Propose and agree upon a mechanism for the long term maintenance of 
the service list

5. Establish a mechanism via which the information about new or changed 
services is communicated to the organisations / people maintaining other 
persistent identifier systems.

URN-related projects such as PersID have identified potential new 
resolution services; some of them can be vital to the success of these 
initiatives. If these novel services are implemented in the project 
level only without broader recognition there may be a danger that the 
co-ordination of the URN system will suffer.
-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From andy@hxr.us  Wed Mar 16 11:10:12 2011
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This has been uploaded to the datatracker tool, but I'm unsure how
long it will take to be reflected on the IETF meeting page. So here it
is.

-andy

Draft URNBIS Working Agenda for IETF 80

1. Note Well
2. Agenda Bashing
    4 minutes 32.9 seconds
3. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn-00
    20 minutes
    Andy Newton (tentative)
4. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-urn-ns-reg-00
    20 minutes
    Andy Newton (tentative)
5. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3187bis-isbn-urn-00
    20 mintues
    Juha Hakala
6. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3188bis-isbn-urn-00
    20 mintues
    Juha Hakala
7. Presentation on URN extension for media content naming
    10 minutes
    Feng Cao
8. Charter Discussion
    Andy Newton
    10 minutes
9. Any Other Business

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Mar 17 10:30:34 2011
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:31:59 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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On 3/16/11 12:11 PM, Andrew Newton wrote:
> This has been uploaded to the datatracker tool, but I'm unsure how
> long it will take to be reflected on the IETF meeting page. So here it
> is.
>=20
> -andy
>=20
> Draft URNBIS Working Agenda for IETF 80
>=20
> 1. Note Well
> 2. Agenda Bashing
>     4 minutes 32.9 seconds

I think that should be 3 minutes 14.159 seconds. ;-)

> 3. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn-00
>     20 minutes

Based on list discussion, it seems that we could use quite a bit of time
on fragment identifiers. 20 minutes might not be enough...

Peter

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Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:50:03 -0400
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From: Andrew Newton <andy@hxr.us>
To: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > Based on list
discussion, it seems that we could use quite a bit of time
> on fragment identifiers. 20 minutes might not be enough...

I can increase the time limit as there is play in the agenda.

It would be nice if participants can think of solutions to the
problem. The simple restating of opposing requirements will not lead
to much forward progress.

-andy

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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:53:48 -0600
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Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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On 3/17/11 11:50 AM, Andrew Newton wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > Based on list
> discussion, it seems that we could use quite a bit of time
>> on fragment identifiers. 20 minutes might not be enough...
>=20
> I can increase the time limit as there is play in the agenda.
>=20
> It would be nice if participants can think of solutions to the
> problem. The simple restating of opposing requirements will not lead
> to much forward progress.

I completely agree. So let's keep discussing it on the list here before
the Prague meeting. :)

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From stpeter@stpeter.im  Thu Mar 17 12:03:16 2011
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:04:41 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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To: Graham Klyne <GK-lists@ninebynine.org>
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Subject: Re: [urn] fragment identifiers
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On 3/11/11 3:40 AM, Graham Klyne wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> "The semantics of a fragment identifier are defined by the set of
>>> representations that might result from a retrieval action on the prim=
ary
>>> resource. The fragment's format and resolution is therefore dependent=
 on
>>> the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved representation, e=
ven
>>> though such a retrieval is only performed if the URI is dereferenced.=
 If
>>> no such representation exists, then the semantics of the fragment are=

>>> considered unknown and are effectively unconstrained. Fragment
>>> identifier semantics are independent of the URI scheme and thus canno=
t
>>> be redefined by scheme specifications."
>>>
>>> I think this is pretty clear -- if you *can* have representations,
>>> you're constrained by the media types that are used as representation=
s.
>>> There's no way avoiding that if you want to stay aligned with the URI=

>>> spec.
>>
>> Another way to put it is that you can have representations or free-for=
m
>> semantics, but not both (because along with representations come the
>> constraints of media types, according to RFC 3986).
>=20
> I suppose it depends on what you mean by "free-form semantics".  For
> RDF, we weasel-worded our way out of this by linking the semantics of
> the URI-with-fragment to the RDF representation associated with the URI=
=2E
>=20
> -- http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-fragID
>=20
> So this is a form of semantics that is quite generic in its
> applicability, but it may not be what you mean by "free form", since it=

> is bound to the semantics of RDF (http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/).

Yes, that makes sense. And clearly the semantics of fragment identifiers
in other technologies (e.g., HTML) are rather loose.

So perhaps one question to ask of the folks working in the URN space is:
what are the semantics of your manifest files (or whatever else might be
returned upon resolution of your URNs)?

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:19:33 +0200
From: Juha Hakala <juha.hakala@helsinki.fi>
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Cc: Marjan Grootveld <marjan.grootveld@dans.knaw.nl>, "urn@ietf.org" <urn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hello,

Andrew Newton wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > Based on list
> discussion, it seems that we could use quite a bit of time
>> on fragment identifiers. 20 minutes might not be enough...
> 
> I can increase the time limit as there is play in the agenda.
> 
> It would be nice if participants can think of solutions to the
> problem. The simple restating of opposing requirements will not lead
> to much forward progress.

I have asked Dutch colleagues in the PersID initiative - who first told 
me that they need fragment identifiers - to specify their use case. 
Marjan Grootveld from DANS wrote the following clarification:

> Persistent Identifiers for fragments
> 
> DANS (Data Archiving and Networked Services, www.dans.knaw.nl) is the Dutch digital archive for research data from the social sciences andhumanities. DANS is also a member of the European PersID initiative concerning the use of URN:NBN for long-term preservation.
> 
> DANS notices a growing demand from researchers to persistently identify fragments of larger units. Two examples from research projects may illustrate this.
> 
> DANS collaborates with the Veteran Institute (NL) and the Radboud University (NL) on providing permanent access to interviews with Dutch veteran military staff who have carried out missions in the last six decades. These audiovisual interviews are being re-used by researchers studying for instance the use of metaphors in the way the interviewees talk about violence, or their mental images of friend and foe. In a so-called EnrichedPublication the researchers illustrate their findings with links to relevant fragments of the interviews. To preserve Enriched Publications for the longterm, not only the underlying publication, but also these fragments need persistent identification.
> 
> Another project will provide digital means to answer the historical research question How do parliamentarians use references to World War II in parliamentary discourse? The University of Amsterdam, NIOD/ Institute for War, Holocaust and Genocide studies (NL) and DANS join forces to find out. The basis for automatic linguistic and statistical analysis is the Dutch Hansard (curated in XML format). The answer to the research question consists of references to specific parts of large documents. Here again, persistent identification fragments is required to properly preserve research outcomes.
> 
> Currently URN:NBN does not provide a way to persistently identify fragments. We ask the committee to change this and extend the standard, because there is a real need for it in the research community.

So, if I have understood the first example correctly, the preference of 
the DANS colleagues is to have a single URN identifying the entire 
interview (in this case, an audiovisual file), but there is a need to 
provide multiple persistent access points to the interview. The 
preferred choice for this is a fragment identifier which encompasses the 
relevant segment of the interview. DANS will see to it that the 
applications facilitating access to this research data will be able to 
resolve these URNs correctly, using the links the researchers embed into 
the data.

I am not entirely sure what the constraints set by the media type are in 
this particular case. But I hope that it is possible to use <fragment> 
in this manner and stay aligned with the RFC 3986.

Without taking a closer look I can not say if the Dutch colleagues 
should utilise the W3C effort (see 
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/) Jean-Pierre Evain mentioned 
in his message to this list. Will check this before the URNBIS WG meeting.

Best regards,

Juha

> 
> -andy
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From ted.ietf@gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 08:03:49 2011
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Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hi Juha,

Thanks for providing the use case.  What is not clear (to me, at
least) is why they cannot provide identifiers for structured portions
of larger resources without re-using the fragment identifier syntax.

urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:contained-resource-id

seems to cover this ground; you can even elaborate it to:

urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:container-type:contained-resource-id

No one objects to identifying resources  contained within other
resources, at least  as far as I know.  The problem is the syntax
re-use with the fragment identifier in URIs, which is understood in
relation to the media type, rather than more generally.

regards,

Ted

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Juha Hakala <juha.hakala@helsinki.fi> wrot=
e:
> Hello,
>
> Andrew Newton wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Peter Saint-Andre > Based on list
>> discussion, it seems that we could use quite a bit of time
>>>
>>> on fragment identifiers. 20 minutes might not be enough...
>>
>> I can increase the time limit as there is play in the agenda.
>>
>> It would be nice if participants can think of solutions to the
>> problem. The simple restating of opposing requirements will not lead
>> to much forward progress.
>
> I have asked Dutch colleagues in the PersID initiative - who first told m=
e
> that they need fragment identifiers - to specify their use case. Marjan
> Grootveld from DANS wrote the following clarification:
>
>> Persistent Identifiers for fragments
>>
>> DANS (Data Archiving and Networked Services, www.dans.knaw.nl) is the
>> Dutch digital archive for research data from the social sciences
>> andhumanities. DANS is also a member of the European PersID initiative
>> concerning the use of URN:NBN for long-term preservation.
>>
>> DANS notices a growing demand from researchers to persistently identify
>> fragments of larger units. Two examples from research projects may
>> illustrate this.
>>
>> DANS collaborates with the Veteran Institute (NL) and the Radboud
>> University (NL) on providing permanent access to interviews with Dutch
>> veteran military staff who have carried out missions in the last six
>> decades. These audiovisual interviews are being re-used by researchers
>> studying for instance the use of metaphors in the way the interviewees t=
alk
>> about violence, or their mental images of friend and foe. In a so-called
>> EnrichedPublication the researchers illustrate their findings with links=
 to
>> relevant fragments of the interviews. To preserve Enriched Publications =
for
>> the longterm, not only the underlying publication, but also these fragme=
nts
>> need persistent identification.
>>
>> Another project will provide digital means to answer the historical
>> research question How do parliamentarians use references to World War II=
 in
>> parliamentary discourse? The University of Amsterdam, NIOD/ Institute fo=
r
>> War, Holocaust and Genocide studies (NL) and DANS join forces to find ou=
t.
>> The basis for automatic linguistic and statistical analysis is the Dutch
>> Hansard (curated in XML format). The answer to the research question
>> consists of references to specific parts of large documents. Here again,
>> persistent identification fragments is required to properly preserve
>> research outcomes.
>>
>> Currently URN:NBN does not provide a way to persistently identify
>> fragments. We ask the committee to change this and extend the standard,
>> because there is a real need for it in the research community.
>
> So, if I have understood the first example correctly, the preference of t=
he
> DANS colleagues is to have a single URN identifying the entire interview =
(in
> this case, an audiovisual file), but there is a need to provide multiple
> persistent access points to the interview. The preferred choice for this =
is
> a fragment identifier which encompasses the relevant segment of the
> interview. DANS will see to it that the applications facilitating access =
to
> this research data will be able to resolve these URNs correctly, using th=
e
> links the researchers embed into the data.
>
> I am not entirely sure what the constraints set by the media type are in
> this particular case. But I hope that it is possible to use <fragment> in
> this manner and stay aligned with the RFC 3986.
>
> Without taking a closer look I can not say if the Dutch colleagues should
> utilise the W3C effort (see http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/)
> Jean-Pierre Evain mentioned in his message to this list. Will check this
> before the URNBIS WG meeting.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Juha
>
>>
>> -andy
>> _______________________________________________
>> urn mailing list
>> urn@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
>>
>
> --
>
> =A0Juha Hakala
> =A0Senior advisor, standardisation and IT
>
> =A0The National Library of Finland
> =A0P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
> =A0Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
>

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<hat type=3D'individual'/>

On 3/23/11 9:05 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
> Hi Juha,
>=20
> Thanks for providing the use case.  What is not clear (to me, at
> least) is why they cannot provide identifiers for structured portions
> of larger resources without re-using the fragment identifier syntax.
>=20
> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:contained-resource-id
>=20
> seems to cover this ground; you can even elaborate it to:
>=20
> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:container-type:contained-resource-id
>=20
> No one objects to identifying resources  contained within other
> resources, at least  as far as I know.  The problem is the syntax
> re-use with the fragment identifier in URIs, which is understood in
> relation to the media type, rather than more generally.

Yes, that seems like a reasonable approach. I'm still not quite sure why
folks think they need to use the fragment identifier syntax here.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Wed Mar 23 23:54:40 2011
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From: Juha Hakala <juha.hakala@helsinki.fi>
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Cc: Marjan Grootveld <marjan.grootveld@dans.knaw.nl>, "urn@ietf.org" <urn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hello,

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> <hat type='individual'/>
> 
> On 3/23/11 9:05 AM, Ted Hardie wrote:
>> Hi Juha,
>>
>> Thanks for providing the use case.  What is not clear (to me, at
>> least) is why they cannot provide identifiers for structured portions
>> of larger resources without re-using the fragment identifier syntax.
>>
>> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:contained-resource-id
>>
>> seems to cover this ground; you can even elaborate it to:
>>
>> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:container-type:contained-resource-id
>>
>> No one objects to identifying resources  contained within other
>> resources, at least  as far as I know.  The problem is the syntax
>> re-use with the fragment identifier in URIs, which is understood in
>> relation to the media type, rather than more generally.
> 
> Yes, that seems like a reasonable approach. I'm still not quite sure why
> folks think they need to use the fragment identifier syntax here.

I hope Marjan or other Dutch colleagues can explain their situation in 
more details.

Generally, there seems to be at least three approaches:

1. <fragment> is used according to the requirements of URI syntax

2. URNs with no implicit or explicit (URI syntax-based) fragment 
specification are given to component parts of a resource. This is the 
approach chosen by my library when we give identify for instance images 
or chapters within a book using URN:NBN. One (the only?) caveat with 
this is that some standard-based namespaces such as URN:ISBN may not 
allow assignment of identifiers to fragments.

3. URNs with implicit (namespace-based) fragment specification are used. 
The syntax and semantics of this activity should be detailed in the 
namespace registration and based on the identifier standard used. An 
example of this is SICI which identifies e.g. issues and articles in 
journals (see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Item_and_Contribution_Identifier).

SICI is based on ISSN 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standard_Serial_Number) but 
but its syntax is a lot more complex since it covers serial "fragments". 
  However, usage of URI syntax <fragment> is not needed and might even 
be counterproductive.

Depending on how the system holding these resources have been built, 
journal articles and issues may or may not be fragments in the URI 
syntax sense of the word. Mapping from URN:SICI to URLs would deal with 
this.

If this approach is acceptable, then RFC2141bis may incorporate 
<fragment> but the RFC should make it clear that a) <fragment> should be 
used only when the media type allows it, b) depending on the URN 
namespace, there may be other approaches for identification of fragments 
which are not limited by the stipulations of the URI syntax.

Best regards,

Juha

> Peter
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From bengt.neiss@kb.se  Thu Mar 24 05:43:35 2011
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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:44:01 -0700
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDDu+WjTc3gusH=3yag=-+zw+Bpkc0c+phfSqE@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Kocer, Kadir Karaca" <K.Kocer@dnb.de>
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Cc: Marjan Grootveld <marjan.grootveld@dans.knaw.nl>, =?ISO-8859-1?B?S2V0dCwgSvxyZ2Vu?= <J.Kett@dnb.de>, urn@ietf.org, "Ackermann, Uta" <U.Ackermann@dnb.de>, "Altenhoener, Reinhard" <R.Altenhoener@dnb.de>
Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Howdy,

Some questions in-line.

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Kocer, Kadir Karaca <K.Kocer@dnb.de> wrote=
:
>>> Hi Juha,
>>>
>>> Thanks for providing the use case. =A0What is not clear (to me, at
>>> least) is why they cannot provide identifiers for structured portions
>>> of larger resources without re-using the fragment identifier syntax.
>>>
>>> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:contained-resource-id
>>>
>>> seems to cover this ground; you can even elaborate it to:
>>>
>>> urn:example-nid:large-resource-id:container-type:contained-resource-id
>>>
>>> No one objects to identifying resources =A0contained within other
>>> resources, at least =A0as far as I know. =A0The problem is the syntax
>>> re-use with the fragment identifier in URIs, which is understood in
>>> relation to the media type, rather than more generally.
>>
>>Yes, that seems like a reasonable approach. I'm still not quite sure why
>>folks think they need to use the fragment identifier syntax here.
>>
>>Peter
>
> Hallo Peter,
>
> let me try to explain why German National Library needs fragments.
>
> If you resolve those 4 URNs
>
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0005-9
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0013-3
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0415-6
>

Can you describe in more detail what you mean by "resolve" here?  Are
resources being returned, and do those resources have an assigned
media-type?  If so, what is the media-type?

> you will see that the first one represents the digitized book itself as a=
n intellectual work and the other ones take you directly to a specific scan=
ned page.
>
> This is our actual implementation in German National Library and its almo=
st the same logic you suggested
> large-resource-id:contained-resource-id (- instead of last : but that is =
just detail)
> You are right. It works so far.
>
I agree that the syntax is irrelevant here; the semantics look the same to =
me.

> First problem is a management problem:
> a) for this single book you need almost 420 URNs!

Is the paint point here minting the URNs?

> b) for each URN you have to manage 2 to 4 URLs (archive copies, front pag=
es)

Can you describe why you have to manage multiple URLs here?

> c) some kind you have to manage the relationship "this is a page of book =
X"
> d) each time the copyright owner "reorganizes" his system all 420 URNs mu=
st be updated
>
Obviously you are not re-assigned URNs, but I'm not sure what kind of
update you mean.  Are you talking about updates to the meta-data
associated with the book?  Surely it is a matter of system to design
to determine whether or not identifiers with a specific type (i.e.
contained identifiers within a larger work) have meta-data updates
applied, or simply have a pointer to the base metadata and so inherit
its updates.


> you may think "So what? It is not a big problem with a good database mana=
gement system"
> But the huge amount makes the difference.
>
> German National Library has about 15.000.000 printed documents itself.
> Not to mention its partners and future web harvesting activities.
>
> A big digitization project can not --or better should not-- produce over =
100.000.000 URNs just because the fragment identifiers are not standardized=
 and each book needs 420 URNs!
>
> Other problems are more philosophical nature:
> each scanned page is there because of the nature of original book. Not be=
cause it is an intellectual work itself. Most pages do not mean much withou=
t the previous and following pages.
> And many more or less similar questions ...
>
> This is why German National Library promotes the idea: URN just for the i=
ntellectual entity and fragments for all levels of granularity.
>

All levels of granularity is actually a big part of the problem.  A
fragment identifier associated with a page number makes sense relative
to a media-type composed of scanned pages.  It makes some sense,
though not as much, to a copy read aloud into an audio file; even
then, the reader must then read the page numbers for it to be useful.
But if you change copies of the book to one set with a different
typeface (as large print books are), the page numbers are no longer
the same.  And if the book is represented in an electronic format that
repaginates when the user shifts the font size, then the page
numbering may change even during a single reading session.

A chapter reference, on the other hand, is useful no matter which copy
of the book is being reference.

On the urn space, what I've tended to assume from that is that
urn:example-nid:containing-resource:container-type:contained-resource
is stable across representations when the container-type is a
structured part of the representation (e.g. chapter).  If the
container-type is not stable across representations, then the
containing resource must be a specific representation of the resource.
 Let's take a specific edition of the Latin Bible as an example: it
has structured sub-containers (Old Testament, New Testatment,
Apocrapha as collections of books, the books therein contained, the
chapters with the books, the verses within the chapters).   If I want
to mint a URN for each specific verse, it is relatively trivial to do,
and it is valid across all representations.

But if I want to mint a URN for page 213, I have to limit myself to a
specific copy of the work.

When there is a digital representation, what that has tended to mean
is that folks use URLs, with their implication of a retrievable
resource of a specific media type, when they want to refer to specific
representations of a resource.  Fragment identifiers are easy to use
there, because they relate to the media type of the resource.  Note
that the resource doesn't actually have to be retrievable for this to
function--like XML namespaces, the URLs can be notional.

To return to the question above, a lot will end up depending on what
you mean by "resolution".

Thanks again for sharing the details of your use case,

regards,

Ted Hardie
> Our example above would turn to:
>
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295#p0001
> .
> .
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295#p0013
> .
> .
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295#p0415
>
> - just one URN to manage
> - just one URN to update
> - just one URN to resolve
> =A0 -> resolving of the fragments will be the responsibility of the docum=
ent owner
> - the relationship is clear
> =A0 -> no need to manage hierarchies
> - virtual intermediate levels can be defined
> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295#b3c07 (band 3, chapter 7)
>
> This allows also the document repository to organize its document managem=
ent more flexible.
>
> Hope this helps
> Karaca Ko=E7er
>
>
>
>
>

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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:06:47 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: Re: [urn] Revision of URI resolution services
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<hat type=3D'AD'/>

On 3/14/11 3:47 AM, Juha Hakala wrote:

> Revision of RFC 2483 (URI resolution services necessary for URN
> resolution) is not included in the charter of URNBIS WG at the moment.
> The purpose of this message is to explain why the revision of this
> (experimental) RFC might be a good idea. Comments are welcome!

The Working Group's contract with the IESG (a.k.a. "the charter") was
expressly negotiated based on the assumption that the URNBIS WG would
finish its work on revising RFC 2141 and RFC 3406 before moving on to
the more complicated and contentious topic of URN resolution. Let's
focus on the work described in the current charter. If folks really want
to start working on URN resolution, they should put some of their energy
into 2141bis and 3406bis (e.g., by providing document reviews or logging
issues in the tracker) so that we can finish those deliverables and then
talk about rechartering the WG to include work on resolution.

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Thread-Topic: Re: [urn] fragment identifiers
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From: "Vanderfeesten, Maurice" <Vanderfeesten@surf.nl>
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Dear IETF URN working group,

=20

The discussion arose if fragments for URN's are used in practise and
which form/syntax they should be.

=20

Syntax:

For the input of Fragments for identifiers depends on the content type.

These two links provide several known standards=20

http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Identifier

for pointing to fragments of content types: x/html, pdf, plain text, xml

http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Media=20

for pointing to fragments for content types like video, audio and
pictures (not exclusively); using spatial, time and named attributes.

=20

Used in practise:

The Open Annotation Collaboration project is expecting the fragments for
URI's also account for URN's!=20

 "... we assign a unique non-resolvable URI (called a URN) as the
identifier for the Body. It is suggested that an identifier in the
urn:UUID scheme be used, however any URN is possible."

From: http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_StringContent=20

People already think the realm of URI is extending into the realm or
URN. In my opinion the URN community should act similarly if it comes to
fragments.

=20

Broad Support:

The members and participants of the open annotation collaboration are
real and using fragments in practice
http://www.openannotation.org/WorkshopAttendeeList.html ,
http://www.openannotation.org/advisoryBoard.html=20

Tools using fragments
http://www.openannotation.org/wiki/index.php/Known_Annotation_Clients=20

=20

Remark:

I am not a member of the open annotation collaboration, but since this
issue arose in the IETF and I am following closely the developments of
collaborative annotation in the research perspective, I thought this
would be worthwhile mentioning.

=20

Best,

maurice

=20

| Project Coordinator Knowledge Infrastructure ICT&Research |
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=20


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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 =
(filtered medium)"><style><!--
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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DNL link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Dear IETF URN working group,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>The discussion arose if fragments =
for URN&#8217;s are used in practise and which form/syntax they should =
be.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Syntax:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>For the input of Fragments for identifiers depends on the =
content type.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>These two links provide several known standards =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Identifier">ht=
tp://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Identifier</a><o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>for pointing to =
fragments of content types: x/html, pdf, plain text, =
xml<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Media">http://=
www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_Frag_Media</a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>for =
pointing to fragments for content types like video, audio and pictures =
(not exclusively); using spatial, time and named =
attributes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Used in practise:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>The Open Annotation Collaboration =
project is expecting the fragments for URI&#8217;s also account for =
URN&#8217;s! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>&nbsp;&#8220;&#8230; we assign a unique non-resolvable URI =
(called a URN) as the identifier for the Body. It is suggested that an =
identifier in the urn:UUID scheme be used, however any URN is =
possible.&#8221;</span></i><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>From: <a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_StringContent">http=
://www.openannotation.org/spec/alpha3/#DM_StringContent</a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>People =
already think the realm of URI is extending into the realm or URN. In my =
opinion the URN community should act similarly if it comes to =
fragments.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Broad Support:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>The members and participants of the =
open annotation collaboration are real and using fragments in practice =
<a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/WorkshopAttendeeList.html">http://w=
ww.openannotation.org/WorkshopAttendeeList.html</a> , <a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/advisoryBoard.html">http://www.open=
annotation.org/advisoryBoard.html</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Tools using fragments <a =
href=3D"http://www.openannotation.org/wiki/index.php/Known_Annotation_Cli=
ents">http://www.openannotation.org/wiki/index.php/Known_Annotation_Clien=
ts</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>Remark:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-GB>I am not a member of the open annotation collaboration, but =
since this issue arose in the IETF and I am following closely the =
developments of collaborative annotation in the research perspective, I =
thought this would be worthwhile mentioning.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>maurice<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Segoe =
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From K.Kocer@dnb.de  Fri Mar 25 07:58:40 2011
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From: "Kocer, Kadir Karaca" <K.Kocer@dnb.de>
To: "Ted Hardie" <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Marjan Grootveld <marjan.grootveld@dans.knaw.nl>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kett=2C_J=FCrgen?= <J.Kett@dnb.de>, urn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hi Ted,

>> If you resolve those 4 URNs
>>
>> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295
>> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0005-9
>> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0013-3
>> urn:nbn:de:gbv:3:1-233295-p0415-6
>>
>
>Can you describe in more detail what you mean by "resolve" here?

Every Persistent Identifier is actually nothing more than a sequence of =
alphanumeric characters without a defined meaning.
It is the "Resolving" that takes the given identifier and delivers the =
user something he/she can start with.

Some possible options are listed in RFC
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2483
(which should be updated too IMHO)

I would suggest you go to our Resolver
http://nbn-resolving.org
and try the resolving yourself.

If you give all those 4 URNs above and analyze the Responses, I'm sure =
you will see my point of view.

Have a nice weekend.
Karaca


From fjscao@gmail.com  Fri Mar 25 13:49:48 2011
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From: Feng Cao <fjscao@gmail.com>
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Subject: [urn] a new draft on problem statement of URN name space for media content
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Hi all,

The URL for this new draft is
http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/wg/ppsp/trac/attachment/wiki/WikiStart/draft-cao-urn-media-content-naming-delivery-00.txt

Title: a URN namespace for media content naming and delivery: Problem Statement
Author(s): F. Cao, J. Peng, Y. Zhang
Abstract:
   Uniform Resource Names (URNs) have been used to serve as persistent
   resource identifiers in multiple scenarios.  There are some
   experimental informal namespaces proposed to extend URN to help the
   media content delivery and sharing, such as peer-to-peer networks.
   This document investigates the current efforts based on URN, analyzes
   the basic requirements for URN extensions to satisfy the content
   delivery, and outlines the options to provide more functions such as
   content search with the help of URN extensions.

Thanks,

--Feng

From juha.hakala@helsinki.fi  Mon Mar 28 03:45:53 2011
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Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hello,

I have a few comments to the agenda.

Andrew Newton wrote:
> This has been uploaded to the datatracker tool, but I'm unsure how
> long it will take to be reflected on the IETF meeting page. So here it
> is.
> 
> -andy
> 
> Draft URNBIS Working Agenda for IETF 80
> 
> 1. Note Well
> 2. Agenda Bashing
>     4 minutes 32.9 seconds
> 3. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn-00
>     20 minutes
>     Andy Newton (tentative)
> 4. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-urn-ns-reg-00
>     20 minutes
>     Andy Newton (tentative)

Alfred Hoenes will be able to attend the meeting, and I assume that he 
will be able to present both of these I-Ds.

If 40 minutes is all we have (see below), I would allocate 25 minutes to 
2141bis and 15 to 3406bis, since most of the discussion on the list has 
concentrated on the URN syntax. But this is a bit academic; we can be 
somewhat flexible with the timing.

> 5. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3187bis-isbn-urn-00
>     20 mintues
>     Juha Hakala
> 6. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3188bis-isbn-urn-00
>     20 mintues
>     Juha Hakala

The title of the latter presentation should be:

Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3188bis-nbn-urn-00

Not sure if 20 minutes is needed (including the presentation and 
discussion); methinks that 10-15 minutes will be sufficient, so that 
there is more time for those agenda items that are more challenging (or 
to the following topic). From the point of view of the namespace 
registrations, the key thing is to agree on URN syntax; after that it 
will be trivial to add the missing bits to rfcs 3187 and 3188.

Pierre Godefroy (from the ISSN International Centre) might want to say a 
few words about the revision of rfc3044, the namespace registration for 
issn. But AOB may be enough for this for now; as far as I am concerned 
it is up to Pierre to decide.

> 7. Presentation on URN extension for media content naming
>     10 minutes
>     Feng Cao
> 8. Charter Discussion
>     Andy Newton
>     10 minutes

10 minutes should be sufficient for this discussion. The issue I will 
bring up is not resolution as such, but resolution services (as defined 
in rfc2483) since there is a gap between what is available and what is 
needed by projects such as PersID, especially in the area of metadata 
exchange. But in IETF 80 the aim is just to introduce the problem, not 
to solve it. The first priority is to complete the chartered tasks.

See you in Prague,

Juha

> 9. Any Other Business
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
> 

-- 

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

From godefroy@issn.org  Mon Mar 28 03:52:08 2011
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From: "Pierre GODEFROY" <godefroy@issn.org>
To: "Juha Hakala" <juha.hakala@helsinki.fi>, "Andrew Newton" <andy@hxr.us>
Cc: urn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80
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Hello,

Thanks to Juha Hakala for proposing an item on the revision of rfc3044 =
(URN-ISSN). I do not know if this should/could be a formal point. In any =
case I would only need 5 minutes to describe the beginning of the =
process and its challenges; so I guess it could be under AOB, if AOB in =
itself has sufficient time in itself.

See you all in Prague,

Pierre Godefroy
Project Manager
ISSN International Centre
45 rue de Turbigo
75003 PARIS
FRANCE
+33 1 44 88 22 18

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Juha Hakala [mailto:juha.hakala@helsinki.fi]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 28 mars 2011 12:47
=C0=A0: Andrew Newton
Cc=A0: urn@ietf.org; Pierre GODEFROY
Objet=A0: Re: [urn] Draft Agenda for URNBIS session at IETF 80

Hello,

I have a few comments to the agenda.

Andrew Newton wrote:
> This has been uploaded to the datatracker tool, but I'm unsure how
> long it will take to be reflected on the IETF meeting page. So here it
> is.
>=20
> -andy
>=20
> Draft URNBIS Working Agenda for IETF 80
>=20
> 1. Note Well
> 2. Agenda Bashing
>     4 minutes 32.9 seconds
> 3. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc2141bis-urn-00
>     20 minutes
>     Andy Newton (tentative)
> 4. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3406bis-urn-ns-reg-00
>     20 minutes
>     Andy Newton (tentative)

Alfred Hoenes will be able to attend the meeting, and I assume that he=20
will be able to present both of these I-Ds.

If 40 minutes is all we have (see below), I would allocate 25 minutes to =

2141bis and 15 to 3406bis, since most of the discussion on the list has=20
concentrated on the URN syntax. But this is a bit academic; we can be=20
somewhat flexible with the timing.

> 5. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3187bis-isbn-urn-00
>     20 mintues
>     Juha Hakala
> 6. Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3188bis-isbn-urn-00
>     20 mintues
>     Juha Hakala

The title of the latter presentation should be:

Discussion of draft-ietf-urnbis-rfc3188bis-nbn-urn-00

Not sure if 20 minutes is needed (including the presentation and=20
discussion); methinks that 10-15 minutes will be sufficient, so that=20
there is more time for those agenda items that are more challenging (or=20
to the following topic). From the point of view of the namespace=20
registrations, the key thing is to agree on URN syntax; after that it=20
will be trivial to add the missing bits to rfcs 3187 and 3188.

Pierre Godefroy (from the ISSN International Centre) might want to say a =

few words about the revision of rfc3044, the namespace registration for=20
issn. But AOB may be enough for this for now; as far as I am concerned=20
it is up to Pierre to decide.

> 7. Presentation on URN extension for media content naming
>     10 minutes
>     Feng Cao
> 8. Charter Discussion
>     Andy Newton
>     10 minutes

10 minutes should be sufficient for this discussion. The issue I will=20
bring up is not resolution as such, but resolution services (as defined=20
in rfc2483) since there is a gap between what is available and what is=20
needed by projects such as PersID, especially in the area of metadata=20
exchange. But in IETF 80 the aim is just to introduce the problem, not=20
to solve it. The first priority is to complete the chartered tasks.

See you in Prague,

Juha

> 9. Any Other Business
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
>=20

--=20

  Juha Hakala
  Senior advisor, standardisation and IT

  The National Library of Finland
  P.O.Box 15 (Unioninkatu 36, room 503), FIN-00014 Helsinki University
  Email juha.hakala@helsinki.fi, tel +358 50 382 7678

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Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 13:59:49 +0200
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Subject: [urn] 3406bis: experimental namespaces
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<hat type=3D'individual'/>

Regarding the discussion just now in the IETF 80 session about
experimental namespaces ("X-<NID>"), I wonder if it would make sense to
register a formal namespace "example" so that people who want to
experiment can do so under "urn:example:*".

Peter

--=20
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/




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Subject: Re: [urn] 3406bis: experimental namespaces
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On 31.03.2011 13:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> <hat type='individual'/>
>
> Regarding the discussion just now in the IETF 80 session about
> experimental namespaces ("X-<NID>"), I wonder if it would make sense to
> register a formal namespace "example" so that people who want to
> experiment can do so under "urn:example:*".
> ...

Yes.

Or even reserve all NIDs starting with "example" (that's what Larry 
proposed).

BR, Julian

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On 3/31/2011 8:13 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 31.03.2011 13:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> <hat type='individual'/>
>>
>> Regarding the discussion just now in the IETF 80 session about
>> experimental namespaces ("X-<NID>"), I wonder if it would make sense to
>> register a formal namespace "example" so that people who want to
>> experiment can do so under "urn:example:*".
>> ...
>
> Yes.
>
> Or even reserve all NIDs starting with "example" (that's what Larry 
> proposed).

In domain names, "example" has different semantics: it is reserved for 
use in documentation and nothing else.

If you want to do paper experiments, that's fine, but I don't think it 
should be used for other purposes.

How about the prefix "provisional"? :-)

     Tony Hansen

From evnikita2@gmail.com  Thu Mar 31 06:59:46 2011
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31.03.2011 15:33, Tony Hansen wrote:
> On 3/31/2011 8:13 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 31.03.2011 13:59, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> <hat type='individual'/>
>>>
>>> Regarding the discussion just now in the IETF 80 session about
>>> experimental namespaces ("X-<NID>"), I wonder if it would make sense to
>>> register a formal namespace "example" so that people who want to
>>> experiment can do so under "urn:example:*".
>>> ...
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Or even reserve all NIDs starting with "example" (that's what Larry 
>> proposed).
>
> In domain names, "example" has different semantics: it is reserved for 
> use in documentation and nothing else.
>
> If you want to do paper experiments, that's fine, but I don't think it 
> should be used for other purposes.
>
> How about the prefix "provisional"? :-)
'provisional' can be confusing with the Provisional category of URIs.  
And it does not represent the purpose of such prefix.  IMO 'experiment' 
can be OK.

Mykyta
>
>     Tony Hansen
> _______________________________________________
> urn mailing list
> urn@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/urn
>


From borje.ohlman@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 31 09:59:47 2011
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As I mentioned at the WG meeting today we (people working on Information Ce=
ntric Networking) have done some work on how to name information objects. W=
e have noted that there are a number of working groups within the IETF that=
 , we think, could have use of such a common naming scheme, e.g. PPSP, DECA=
DE and CDNI. We think a common naming scheme within the IETF would be usefu=
l.

Below you find links to two drafts that we have submitted on this subject. =
It would be very valuable to have your comments on the ideas presented in t=
hose drafts. Also suggestions on which would be the best place within the I=
ETF to work on such a common naming scheme would be useful.

http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dannewitz-ppsp-secure-naming/
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrell-ni/

                             B=F6rje Ohlman



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=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US=
>As I mentioned at the WG meeting today we (people working on Information C=
entric Networking) have done some work on how to name information objects. =
We have noted that there are a number of working groups within the IETF tha=
t , we think, could have use of such a common naming scheme, e.g. PPSP, DEC=
ADE and CDNI. We think a common naming scheme within the IETF would be usef=
ul.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US>Below you find li=
nks to two drafts that we have submitted on this subject. It would be very =
valuable to have your comments on the ideas presented in those drafts. Also=
 suggestions on which would be the best place within the IETF to work on su=
ch a common naming scheme would be useful.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span lang=3DEN-US><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dann=
ewitz-ppsp-secure-naming/">http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dannewitz-=
ppsp-secure-naming/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lan=
g=3DEN-US><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrell-ni/">htt=
p://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-farrell-ni/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
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</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></bo=
dy></html>=

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Cc: urn@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [urn] 3406bis: experimental namespaces
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Hi Peter,
At 04:59 31-03-2011, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
><hat type='individual'/>
>
>Regarding the discussion just now in the IETF 80 session about
>experimental namespaces ("X-<NID>"), I wonder if it would make sense to
>register a formal namespace "example" so that people who want to
>experiment can do so under "urn:example:*".

See draft-saintandre-xdash-considered-harmful

Regards,
-sm