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Sun, 3 Jul 2016 02:08:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-it-aoyama-ac-jp; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Udazx1DwktGtIbYd9mrxqv6h5HXgtEG/bRpmHEB64AE=; b=aHe/jcRNnevir4g6dxZMRaru6UcAEvA1woTDYXn3YMMUNsMTI9mryF74QuQ8sr+lPgh5i8Ox17tfz71yQ4ctvk3NsCllqw4Eux42yXs7eyWlDLypk+0DI7yEublKBLM4ML+xCzveUOeY+2iD+7pE4BCtspb0nRRhGcl8X5FR3hU= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp; Received: from [192.168.1.2] (60.36.28.163) by TYXPR01MB0926.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (10.168.45.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.534.14; Sun, 3 Jul 2016 09:08:00 +0000 To: John C Klensin References: From: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J._D=c3=bcrst?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University Message-ID: <4b828c5e-e662-5451-e053-605fdb63c53f@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 18:07:50 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; 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Sorry to be late in responding. On 2016/06/30 01:00, John C Klensin wrote: > (sorry... wrong address) > > Sean, Martin, > > One pre-call observation (at this point, I'm not sure I'll > manage to make the call)... > > While we can debate how to fix semantics-clarif at length > (including nit-picking about "abstractly correct", which I will > happily change just to avoid spending time debating it), > > semantics-clarif _does not_ change, or try to change, 3986. That's good to hear. But then the "update 3986" piece wouldn't be necessary. Regards, Martin. > What it attempts to do is to establish some local context, > relationships, and terminology for URNs that conflict with some > people's reading of 3986. If that is still not clear to a > significant fraction of the WG, it is clear that a new editor is > needed because I can't stand looking at it any more. > > But the bottom line seems to me to be the comment in another > note that we should just make 2141bis conform to whatever 3986 > says about URIs. I believe that the WG has already concluded > that is impossible (at least as many participants in the WG > under 3986) and that we need to move past it. If that > discussion is going to be reopened, let's do it explicitly, > rather than trying to do it by debating the fine points of > either of these URNBIS documents. > > john From nobody Sun Jul 3 10:12:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE2C12B01D for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:12:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rjK_YtCQKN2E for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B97D128E19 for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2016 10:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=JcK-HP8200) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1bJkwg-0008LM-Hg; Sun, 03 Jul 2016 13:12:38 -0400 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2016 13:12:33 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Message-ID: <7A50CAD3988009BC38DE4CE7@JcK-HP8200> In-Reply-To: <4b828c5e-e662-5451-e053-605fdb63c53f@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <4b828c5e-e662-5451-e053-605fdb63c53f@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Cc: urn@ietf.org Subject: Re: [urn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-urnbis-semantics-clarif-04.txt X-BeenThere: urn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Revisions to URN RFCs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2016 17:12:43 -0000 --On Sunday, July 03, 2016 18:07 +0900 "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote: >> semantics-clarif _does not_ change, or try to change, 3986. >=20 > That's good to hear. But then the "update 3986" piece wouldn't > be necessary. Transcription error. Removed from the working draft of -05 a few days ago. Just to clarify in case it hasn't been clear from other notes, my plan is to make one more pass through semantics-clarif to fix that error and tidy up any typographical or editorial issues that I (or others) identify, get -05 posted, and then stop work on the document. If changes are wanted beyond -05, someone will have to convince the co-chairs that additional work on the document is worthwhile and find an editor because, unless something very significant happens, I'm through after -05 is posted. I do intend to take another look at the use of "believe" in the context of your remark about religion. I will see if the text can easily be clarified to make it clear that the issue is an honest difference of opinion among people who interpret 3986 differently and decisions that the WG is not going to try to deliver a definitive interpretation (which would imply updating 3986), not, e.g., religious belief. However, I'm not going to spend a lot of time and energy on it. While I would welcome suggested textual changes, I'm not going to spend time on-list debating them or refining language in ways that would be more appropriate if we were headed for RFC publication. Again, I can be persuaded otherwise, but my most likely response would be "find another editor". While I could (and would) change my mind (particularly if I get instructions from the co-chairs to the contrary), my current plan is to not issue -05 until we are close to IETF LC on 2141bis. I don't need the distraction of having the fuss with this document and don't believe anyone else does either. best, john From nobody Fri Jul 8 08:12:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: urn@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1CD12B047 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGLajeCZskLk for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x242.google.com (mail-yw0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5360E12D0CF for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x242.google.com with SMTP id l125so8633395ywb.1 for ; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:12:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GyCz7Q+R6sU5pRolp0jng3u9fYWO+MWj2DmKWtld13g=; b=o4XHbL1jWuAinwZoJrTHlOrMpcAcxXmYR9UYjYF4KDqWDJDWbSqtesoz9ZxKh72bYx wEJ5iCNhfhfQtw5pylYSgSEKZipfQK85FPLXIFu8Kq0cIhzKdHLzg/TYH+QyKGO0O75V ZIQubCtszPe4H5MWzSrh+GYZRwhRmKpLmrrlI+OLhTaMVaPBYY4/513O8FMi75VJJEtw Xii8u8GDkq6MsC7qPfFefX02kqEcWFVqnOItYwakJbZ0xNGG34FV9BZUAGpa0YIfCkH8 z8vWN/GNVkBDiRV2Lt191JyDhRV4JuGm4whBmjXKJCjOr9W42t+rB0MhGI1fCtrNWIII ujaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=GyCz7Q+R6sU5pRolp0jng3u9fYWO+MWj2DmKWtld13g=; b=MAC336+lV6xprJAdFQTZ9HMNRmDZEYF4lCxJEf5r5/iwnprRK/bIr7vSYT81umkFl1 PFmnEgRXp82BMLK5o6zTN05kcOzyKSXeJJUMyzO6nO5rvd/gU298aG3JI/5F/KPbRjyo xOvh2FT3C9SMGcWwS/tZHghVG3V3QXVT8Z0LredH5+/+LODLnoCC0a6inutEWFrEQ8qV v5bdFF38UwjrC6XhDb7L0U3f+WVfB8JXYK99OEjeKuD+mgHNKdqNjnBY6sLuqDeNg5qA SDfT9VydVuN7CZTmOfjqHMUdnD+2ueowWGxwcp0MsLSp1WZXM2ljfwcswmGQ/q1ypV5/ zyTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJLPgFlnQgw7OiKv6OlJwzuTOswrwaMlyq2mN0+gu2IaBcfbHrBT6nycDr5IQ2oynvnVWAW7Esca9qK7w== X-Received: by 10.129.161.86 with SMTP id y83mr4831629ywg.190.1467990758344; Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:12:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: barryleiba@gmail.com Received: by 10.83.33.137 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:12:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Barry Leiba Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 11:12:37 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dwNGDQzlAdPFRbgNNIRsguGcOuU Message-ID: To: "urn@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [urn] Notes from the URNbis virtual meeting X-BeenThere: urn@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Revisions to URN RFCs List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2016 15:12:41 -0000 My apologies for having not posted this sooner; I wrote them up the next day and got some review, but wasn't able to follow up until now. I will figure out how to post these to the datatracker forthwith. Barry, as chair ---------------------- 29 June 2016 Start at 12:05 NY time Attendance: Alexey Melnikov (AD) Andy Newton (chair) Barry Leiba (chair) Henry Thompson John Klensin Juha Hakala Julian Reschke Peter Saint-Andre Sean Leonard Semantics clarification - meant to set the stage - need to be sure we're on the same page with respect to it, and that's all - not "update" 3986, but look at the principles that semantics-clarification set out - a bit of background on how s-c came about - - maintain syntax compatibility for URNs, but not necessarily semantics - - how are fragments interpreted in URNs? - concern: we can't break generic URI processors - claim: you still need to understand the URI scheme... - - ...so any processor that doesn't understand the "urn:" scheme can't process them anyway - - ...and any processor that does will know what to do with it - - comment that generic URI processing is basically limited to generic parsing (which is all that 3986 talks about), and that any further processing, including resolution, needs knowledge of the URI scheme - discussion of those points -- agreement so far - discussion brings up an issue in 2141bis Section 4.3 ("URNs and Relative References", text from April 2015) Need to work on that text, but it's editorial, not a fundamental issue. Henry is willing to work with John and Peter on text. - The document has served its purpose and will not have any further major work. The point is to make sure that 2141bis reflects the principles outlined here. 2141bis Issues: 1. URN equivalence - Sean is concerned that just "equivalence" is unclear and confusing - Agreement that equivalence as specified here ends at the bytes in the URN, and that "equivalence" such as "names the same document", while a reasonable thing to consider, is out of scope here - We're in agreement about what the document needs to say, but we need to settle on terms to go with the definitions -- at minimum, putting the hyphen back into "URN-equivalence". Sean prefers "lexical equivalence", but John is conccerned that that term creates new ambiguities and that the document needs to distinguish among various types of equivalence, two of which it addresses now and some that it does not: - 3986 baseline equivalence: octet-by-octet identity across the entire string. - URN-equivalence: whatever it is that 2141bis specifies as scheme-specific equivalence. - Namespace-equivalence: whatever 2141bis should say about equivalence within a specific namespace, which could be further specified in the namespace definitions. - Other forms of equivalence that depending on dereferencing or object retrieval, which ought to be well out of scope here. 2. Usage of the term "urn" -- used for different things, and sloppily (related to name and namespace) - General cleanup will be done: Peter has already agreed to start that. - Cleaning it up fully will probably take more than one pass, and will require careful review. 3. Ordering of components, and the issue of "?=" or "?+" appearing in a q-component - Discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of flexible ordering vs limiting the acceptable content of the components. - Decision to require r-component to come before q-component, so that the "?+" delimiter for r-component can't be confused as being part of the query. - Decision to remove restriction on "?=" and "?+" in q-component. The q-component will only end with "#" or end-of-string. 4. Discussion of f-component text (Section 2.3.3) - Decision not to change that -- what's there was difficult to arrive at, and we will stay with it. - But see the comment above about the relative reference text in Section 4.3, which will interact with this. - CREF3 (at the beginning of 2.3.3) will be removed. Chairs thank everyone for taking the time to attend; we were able to resolve what we intended to. End at 13:59 NY time Steaming audio: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/ldr.php?RCID=201acf77f3c0b85c3dbb2522869314da Download audio: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/lsr.php?RCID=0be6a5705f32a5c45f91ba3c7b772830 ----------------------