Subject: #1311 Default value for the Archive header

From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:03:19 -0700

Current section text:

3.2.12.  Archive

   The Archive header field provides an indication of the poster's
   intent regarding preservation of the article in publicly accessible
   long-term or permanent storage.

   archive         =  "Archive:" SP [CFWS] ("no" / "yes")
                      *( [CFWS] ";" [CFWS] archive-param ) [CFWS] CRLF

   archive-param   =  parameter

   The presence of an Archive header field in an article with a field
   body of "no" indicates that the poster does not permit redistribution
   from publicly accessible long-term or permanent archives.  The
   absence of this header field, or the presence of this header field
   with a field body of "yes", indicates that the poster is willing for
   such redistribution to take place.  Further extensions to this
   standard may provide parameters for administration of the archiving
   process.

Suggested resolution: Replace last paragraph with:

   The presence of an Archive header field in an article with a field
   body of "no" indicates that the poster does not wish to permit 
redistribution
   from publicly accessible long-term or permanent archives.
   A field body of "yes" indicates that the poster wishes to permit such
   redistribution.

  No parameters have been defined so far; if present, they can be ignored.

(note - ignoring unknown parameters is probably a requirement if 
parameters are
ever going to be deployed on this. So it makes sense to say how to treat 
them here.)

Comments?

---

From: Russ Allbery <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:18:59 -0700

>   redistribution from publicly accessible long-term or permanent
>   archives.  A field body of "yes" indicates that the poster wishes to
>   permit such redistribution.  No parameters have been defined so far;
>   if present, they can be ignored.

Looks good to me.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 06:25:16 +0200

Harald Alvestrand wrote:

 [old]
> the poster does not permit redistribution
 [new]
> the poster does not wish to permit redistribution
 [...]
> Comments?

I'd like it better without "wish to" for the "no" case.  And as
noted elsewhere "long term" covers "permanent", you could get
rid of "or permanent".

Bye, Frank

---

From: Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:32:54 +0200

> noted elsewhere "long term" covers "permanent", you could get
After having suffered through excessive reviews of the terms of 
"copyright" in IPR and in other fora, I believe "wish to" is correct, 
because the poster frequently has no legal right to decide one way or 
the other, and the only way to discover whether he has the right or not 
is to drag the case into a court of law.

Examples include the mandatory-by-law storing of newsgroups in national 
history archives, retention of messages in Sarbanes-Oxley mandated 
archives, deletion of messages by company policy under Sarbanes-Oxley, 
fair use, reposting of others' messages, "+1" messages that can be 
deemed to have "no creative content" and so forth.

This is Yet Another Minefield.

---

From: Seth Breidbart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 03:23:26 -0400 (EDT)

Harald Alvestrand <[email-masked]> wrote:

> "copyright" in IPR and in other fora, I believe "wish to" is
> correct, because the poster frequently has no legal right to decide
> one way or the other, and the only way to discover whether he has
> the right or not is to drag the case into a court of law.

I don't permit redistribution.

I might not have the legal ability to _prevent_ redistribution, but I
still don't _permit_ it.

That is, I (the poster) am not granting permission for ("permitting")
redistribution.  You might have the legal right, or even obligation,
to redistribute it anyway.

So I think "the poster does not permit redistribution" is better,
though I agree that it doesn't make any actual difference.

Seth

---

From: Frank Ellermann <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 09:43:36 +0200

Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> messages in Sarbanes-Oxley mandated archives

Oops, in another browser window I was just about to ask Google
what it knows about "SOX" (because Scott K. mentioned it on
the general list), now you gave me an idea how to refine this
query...
 [some minutes later]
...how's that related to what I post as an unpaid volunteer ?

> "+1" messages that can be deemed to have "no creative
> content" and so forth.  This is Yet Another Minefield.

Yes, please make "Archive: No" a minefield as much as possible.

If you can't strike this vague "wish to" between "does not" and
"permit" add an adverb like "explicitly" / "clearly".  It's not
that I suddenly like wishful thinking in a technical document,
but "does not wish to permit" sounds too obviously irrelevant.

Bye, Frank

---

From: "Charles Lindsey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2006 21:08:09 GMT

>deemed to have "no creative content" and so forth.

Yes, edge cases like those can always be troublesome. See the wording in
the "security and related considerations" in USEPRO, which covers the
presumed permission inherent in Usenet for copying to servers worldwide
(not permanent by usual expectations), and covers the Archive header, and
gives warnings and directs you to your lawyer for just about everything
else.

As to "wish to", we currently say that he permits or does not permit
something. If you want to say that he "wishes to permit ...", then you
could do so but it won't really make any difference. If the courts decide
he had no right to "permit" (or not), then they will proceed accordingly
anyway.

Although "long term" covers "permanent", it is probably better left just
to convey a little extra emphasis.

-- 
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked]      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
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