From wade9911@itsnev.co.uk Tue Mar 4 02:15:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5763F28C589 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.406 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.406 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QOd2U6gfWMpB for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from auh-b19490.alshamil.net.ae (auh-b19490.alshamil.net.ae [83.110.5.92]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 707A328C61A for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 02:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from nnkxc ([38.115.70.43]) by auh-b19490.alshamil.net.ae (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id m24AFoLO077015; Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:15:50 +0400 Message-ID: <47CD2119.7050702@itsnev.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:14:49 +0400 From: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: usefor-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Please open your ecard. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Be the first to get your Funny PostCard http://76.212.236.199/ From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 19 09:57:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED93F28C65F for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.638 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.638 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.961, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viceBwdrtfnu for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (cl-240.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:ef::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6286228C68C for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JGpxl9035933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2JGpx1i035932; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JGptJd035917 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3^clerew#man^ac#uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.287) id 47e14367.1ca2.13e0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:31 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2JGkFS8012468 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:15 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2JGkE5o012464 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:14 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24764 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:11:06 GMT Lines: 65 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Because of some unfortunate properties of Message-IDs as defined in RFC2822, USEFOR contains some extremely ugly syntax so as to permit the greatest possible subset of what RFC2822 allows that will nevertheless work in Usenet. But the fact that it succeeds in doing just that does not make it any the less ugly :-( . We agreed way back that, when RFC2822 came up for revision, we should press for changes that would make it more Usenet-friendly. That revision has now taken place, and is on the verge of Last Call (draft-resnick-2822upd-06.txt). Frank and I have been campaigning throughout for suitable changes to be made, with occasional but useful assistance from Russ and Alexei, and, after much persistance, we have gained most of what we asked for (even more than I ever expected). So, RFC2882-bis changes the suntax of in three ways: 1. left of the '@', is completely gone (leaving just ) 2. right of the '@', has disappeared from (indeed, it is gone from too) 3. NO-WS-CTL has also disappeared from (and from too) So, starting from USEFOR being a subset of the RFC2822 , it is now almost the other way around - we allow too much! The only remaining differences are that we still need to forbid '>', and we impose a 250 character limit on the overall length. And I decided not to push my luck any further by trying to fix those. I reckon we could live with them. So the question now arises of whether we should try to bring USEFOR into line. Granted that USEFOR has now passed its last call (even though not yet published as an RFC), it would be necessary for us to seek leave from the IESG to take it back for one further Draft (there is precedent for that, since it happened that way for the NNTP draft that is now RFC3977). I think the changes necessary are rather more than could be done at the final AUTH48 stage. The change that I would propose would simply be to remove that ugly syntax and replace it with something pretty close to what is in RFC2822-bis. The only differences needed would be to forbid '>' in and to impose that 250 character limit, and to apply suitable word-smithing to bring everything else into line. We MIGHT go further by basing USEFOR as a whole on RFC2822-bis rather than on RFC2822. But we should make it clear before we embark on this exercise that NOTHING else is to be changed that does not arise directly from the RFC2822-bis changes. We have already achieved consensus on everything else in USEFOR, and I have no desire at all to change any of that. {The only other major difference between USEFOR and RFC2822 is that SP after ':' in headers. It soon became clear that they were not going to budge on that, although there was some support for a non-normative NOTE suggesting that such as SP was a good practice for reasons of interoperability with Usenet (and such a NOTE might yet get in).} -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Mar 19 12:12:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EAB28C47E for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:12:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.932, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uoSwdE4cib7V for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (cl-240.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:ef::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3EED28C3E1 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JJ7kag049198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2JJ7k86049197; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JJ7ga0049188 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E25259725; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22435-08; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12D4259712; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:09:17 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for reopening USEFOR. Just finding the energy to call the question on the last outstanding USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Harald Charles Lindsey skrev: > Because of some unfortunate properties of Message-IDs as defined in > RFC2822, USEFOR contains some extremely ugly syntax so as to permit the > greatest possible subset of what RFC2822 allows that will nevertheless > work in Usenet. But the fact that it succeeds in doing just that does not > make it any the less ugly :-( . > > We agreed way back that, when RFC2822 came up for revision, we should > press for changes that would make it more Usenet-friendly. > > That revision has now taken place, and is on the verge of Last Call > (draft-resnick-2822upd-06.txt). Frank and I have been campaigning > throughout for suitable changes to be made, with occasional but useful > assistance from Russ and Alexei, and, after much persistance, we have > gained most of what we asked for (even more than I ever expected). > > So, RFC2882-bis changes the suntax of in three ways: > 1. left of the '@', is completely gone (leaving just > ) > 2. right of the '@', has disappeared from > (indeed, it is gone from too) > 3. NO-WS-CTL has also disappeared from (and from > too) > > So, starting from USEFOR being a subset of the RFC2822 , > it is now almost the other way around - we allow too much! The only > remaining differences are that we still need to forbid '>', and we impose > a 250 character limit on the overall length. And I decided not to push my > luck any further by trying to fix those. I reckon we could live with them. > > So the question now arises of whether we should try to bring USEFOR into > line. Granted that USEFOR has now passed its last call (even though not > yet published as an RFC), it would be necessary for us to seek leave from > the IESG to take it back for one further Draft (there is precedent for > that, since it happened that way for the NNTP draft that is now RFC3977). > I think the changes necessary are rather more than could be done at the > final AUTH48 stage. > > The change that I would propose would simply be to remove that ugly syntax > and replace it with something pretty close to what is in RFC2822-bis. The > only differences needed would be to forbid '>' in and to impose > that 250 character limit, and to apply suitable word-smithing to bring > everything else into line. > > We MIGHT go further by basing USEFOR as a whole on RFC2822-bis rather than > on RFC2822. But we should make it clear before we embark on this exercise > that NOTHING else is to be changed that does not arise directly from the > RFC2822-bis changes. We have already achieved consensus on everything else > in USEFOR, and I have no desire at all to change any of that. > > {The only other major difference between USEFOR and RFC2822 is that SP > after ':' in headers. It soon became clear that they were not going to > budge on that, although there was some support for a non-normative NOTE > suggesting that such as SP was a good practice for reasons of > interoperability with Usenet (and such a NOTE might yet get in).} > > From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Mar 20 02:45:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDE5728C28C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:45:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QOLPEE7A53Ix for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (cl-240.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:ef::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632D228C287 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2K9eDsB052314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2K9eDXv052313; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2K9e7uu052285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JcHFk-0003Hv-VO for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 Received: from hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net ([217.184.142.54]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 Received: from nobody by hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:42:25 +0100 Organization: Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Reply-To: "Frank Ellermann" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: =20 > Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence=20 > appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for=20 > reopening USEFOR. FWIW, here's what I wrote yesterday to Lisa about this issue: | Meanwhile I realized that replacing the normative RFC.usefor-usefor | reference by 2822upd cannot work without reinventing the (USEFOR) | wheel to some degree - posted on the general list yesterday. [*] | For 2821bis and other drafts it is difficult to decide. But for | RFC.usefor-usefor and the news URIs any "last minute" attempts of | "2822upd upgrades" should be under your control. | | A simple recipe could be "WONTDO", 2822upd comes too late, and it | is too easy to get "last minute" ABNF changes wrong. *: > Just finding the energy to call the question on the last > outstanding USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Some foreseeable 2822upd simplifications are IMO more relevant for EAI and mailto-bis than for USEFOR. Mailto-bis is in the critical path for mailto-eai + eai-mailing-lists. Even if hordes of folks with lots of energy show up - at some point in time somebody needs to figure out who got right, 4408 or USEFOR. If ICANN seriously wants weird one letter A-s=20 USEFOR got this "wrong" :-( =20 Neither 4408 nor USEFOR mention subtle details about "xn--"... vs.=20 2ALPHA "--"... labels, let alone "0x" HEXDIG. I'm not aware of any RFC mentioning 0x0... up to 0xf... as "bad" labels. If RFC.usefor-usefor goes to DS these details can be fixed, that=20 obviously won't happen before ID.usefor-usepro is an RFC with two interoperable implementations. Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 21 10:16:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD163A6D73 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.995 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.995 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.604, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 13dzrwHDJze9 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (cl-240.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:ef::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828B43A6997 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC8L7032752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2LHC8nq032751; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC6Y2032719 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3$clerew^man*ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.287) id 47e3ec77.5089.203e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:23 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2LHC2wa017455 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2LHC24V017452 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24767 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:51:19 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence >> appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for >> reopening USEFOR. >FWIW, here's what I wrote yesterday to Lisa about this issue: >| Meanwhile I realized that replacing the normative RFC.usefor-usefor >| reference by 2822upd cannot work without reinventing the (USEFOR) >| wheel to some degree - posted on the general list yesterday. Yes, rebasing USEFOR ON 2822upd throughout is one possibility (which I don't entirely rule out), but my suggestion was for something simpler, namely to leave it based on 2822, but to quietly adopt the 2822upd (modulo the '>' difference) as the USEFOR syntax. It would still be a subset of 2822 (as it is at the moment), but a smaller one which would also turn out to be a subset of 2822upd. The chief advantage would be a huge simplification of that present ugly syntax, which is surely going to be most off-putting to most readers. No sense in off-putting readers if it is no longer necessary to do so. >| A simple recipe could be "WONTDO", 2822upd comes too late, and it >| is too easy to get "last minute" ABNF changes wrong. It would now be so simple that getting it wrong would be quite hard work (and would probably imnply that 2822upd had got it wrong too :-) ). >Even if hordes of folks with lots of energy show up - at some point >in time somebody needs to figure out who got right, 4408 >or USEFOR. If ICANN seriously wants weird one letter A-s >USEFOR got this "wrong" :-( I think I would strenuously resist the temptation to try to fix anything other than arises from 2822upd. The particular issue you mention is too esoteric to raise pracitcal problems. If ICANN has sorted out the mess by DS time, that would be soon enough. All I want to do is to get rid of that ugly syntax if it is no longer needed, and to ensure we nevertheless still be consistent with 2822upd. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Mar 21 10:16:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0013A6CD7 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.295 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.295 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.304, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sk0QO9axm87m for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (cl-240.ewr-01.us.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:4830:1200:ef::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77A23A6B57 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC7TW032740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2LHC6PP032739; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net [79.135.125.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC4l8032718 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3&clerew&man#ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.288) id 47e3ec99.77cd.6fc for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:57 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2LHC3Eu017463 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:03 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2LHC3tu017460 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:03 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24768 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:56:47 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence >appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for >reopening USEFOR. I am happy to propose the detailed changes that would be needed, if we decide to go that route. >Just finding the energy to call the question on the last outstanding >USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Which is the REAL problem facing this WG. USEPRO is stymied until that issue is resolved. We have had the dicussion. We have an agreed summary of the pros and cons of the two options. I have three times asked (twice on this list and once by private email) for a head count to see whether we can achieve a consensus on one of them. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From florenciaa@mexis.com Tue Mar 25 06:44:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-usefor-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162E628C438 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -65.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-65.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQ9gCiecZKqr for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [82.46.205.24] (82-46-205-24.cable.ubr05.smal.blueyonder.co.uk [82.46.205.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6AA63A6B0C for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 06:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [82.46.205.24] by mail.mexis.com; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:41:53 +0000 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:41:53 +0000 From: "AdWords-NoReplay" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.80.06) Professional Reply-To: florenciaa@mexis.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <087925358.88092093941193@mexis.com> To: usefor-archive@ietf.org Subject: Update Your Billing Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------{nHEX}" ------------{nHEX} Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This message was sent from a notification-only email address that does not accept incoming email. Please do not reply to this message. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Google AdWords Customer, Please sign in to your account at http://adwords.google.com/select/login , and update your billing information. Your account will be reactivated as soon as you update your payment information. Your ads will show immediately if you decide to pay for clicks via credit or debit card. 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The Google AdWords Team ------------{nHEX}-- Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC8L7032752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2LHC8nq032751; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC6Y2032719 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3$clerew^man*ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.287) id 47e3ec77.5089.203e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:23 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2LHC2wa017455 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:02 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2LHC24V017452 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:02 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24767 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:51:19 GMT Lines: 54 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In "Frank Ellermann" writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > >> Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence >> appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for >> reopening USEFOR. >FWIW, here's what I wrote yesterday to Lisa about this issue: >| Meanwhile I realized that replacing the normative RFC.usefor-usefor >| reference by 2822upd cannot work without reinventing the (USEFOR) >| wheel to some degree - posted on the general list yesterday. Yes, rebasing USEFOR ON 2822upd throughout is one possibility (which I don't entirely rule out), but my suggestion was for something simpler, namely to leave it based on 2822, but to quietly adopt the 2822upd (modulo the '>' difference) as the USEFOR syntax. It would still be a subset of 2822 (as it is at the moment), but a smaller one which would also turn out to be a subset of 2822upd. The chief advantage would be a huge simplification of that present ugly syntax, which is surely going to be most off-putting to most readers. No sense in off-putting readers if it is no longer necessary to do so. >| A simple recipe could be "WONTDO", 2822upd comes too late, and it >| is too easy to get "last minute" ABNF changes wrong. It would now be so simple that getting it wrong would be quite hard work (and would probably imnply that 2822upd had got it wrong too :-) ). >Even if hordes of folks with lots of energy show up - at some point >in time somebody needs to figure out who got right, 4408 >or USEFOR. If ICANN seriously wants weird one letter A-s >USEFOR got this "wrong" :-( I think I would strenuously resist the temptation to try to fix anything other than arises from 2822upd. The particular issue you mention is too esoteric to raise pracitcal problems. If ICANN has sorted out the mess by DS time, that would be soon enough. All I want to do is to get rid of that ugly syntax if it is no longer needed, and to ensure we nevertheless still be consistent with 2822upd. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC7TW032740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2LHC6PP032739; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net [79.135.125.42]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2LHC4l8032718 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 10:12:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3&clerew&man#ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.288) id 47e3ec99.77cd.6fc for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:57 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2LHC3Eu017463 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:03 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2LHC3tu017460 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:12:03 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24768 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 15:56:47 GMT Lines: 28 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence >appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for >reopening USEFOR. I am happy to propose the detailed changes that would be needed, if we decide to go that route. >Just finding the energy to call the question on the last outstanding >USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Which is the REAL problem facing this WG. USEPRO is stymied until that issue is resolved. We have had the dicussion. We have an agreed summary of the pros and cons of the two options. I have three times asked (twice on this list and once by private email) for a head count to see whether we can achieve a consensus on one of them. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2K9eDsB052314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2K9eDXv052313; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2K9e7uu052285 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:40:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JcHFk-0003Hv-VO for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 Received: from hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net ([217.184.142.54]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 Received: from nobody by hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:40:04 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:42:25 +0100 Organization: Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Reply-To: "Frank Ellermann" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: hmbg-d9b88e36.pool.mediaways.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: =20 > Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence=20 > appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for=20 > reopening USEFOR. FWIW, here's what I wrote yesterday to Lisa about this issue: | Meanwhile I realized that replacing the normative RFC.usefor-usefor | reference by 2822upd cannot work without reinventing the (USEFOR) | wheel to some degree - posted on the general list yesterday. [*] | For 2821bis and other drafts it is difficult to decide. But for | RFC.usefor-usefor and the news URIs any "last minute" attempts of | "2822upd upgrades" should be under your control. | | A simple recipe could be "WONTDO", 2822upd comes too late, and it | is too easy to get "last minute" ABNF changes wrong. *: > Just finding the energy to call the question on the last > outstanding USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Some foreseeable 2822upd simplifications are IMO more relevant for EAI and mailto-bis than for USEFOR. Mailto-bis is in the critical path for mailto-eai + eai-mailing-lists. Even if hordes of folks with lots of energy show up - at some point in time somebody needs to figure out who got right, 4408 or USEFOR. If ICANN seriously wants weird one letter A-s=20 USEFOR got this "wrong" :-( =20 Neither 4408 nor USEFOR mention subtle details about "xn--"... vs.=20 2ALPHA "--"... labels, let alone "0x" HEXDIG. I'm not aware of any RFC mentioning 0x0... up to 0xf... as "bad" labels. If RFC.usefor-usefor goes to DS these details can be fixed, that=20 obviously won't happen before ID.usefor-usepro is an RFC with two interoperable implementations. Frank Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JJ7kag049198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2JJ7k86049197; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JJ7ga0049188 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:07:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E25259725; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22435-08; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12D4259712; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:07:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47E164DD.4030206@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:09:17 +0100 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080227) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey Cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Unless somehow a horde of people with lots of energy and competence appears on the mailing list, I'm not going to entertain proposals for reopening USEFOR. Just finding the energy to call the question on the last outstanding USEPRO question is proving too much for these chairs. Harald Charles Lindsey skrev: > Because of some unfortunate properties of Message-IDs as defined in > RFC2822, USEFOR contains some extremely ugly syntax so as to permit the > greatest possible subset of what RFC2822 allows that will nevertheless > work in Usenet. But the fact that it succeeds in doing just that does not > make it any the less ugly :-( . > > We agreed way back that, when RFC2822 came up for revision, we should > press for changes that would make it more Usenet-friendly. > > That revision has now taken place, and is on the verge of Last Call > (draft-resnick-2822upd-06.txt). Frank and I have been campaigning > throughout for suitable changes to be made, with occasional but useful > assistance from Russ and Alexei, and, after much persistance, we have > gained most of what we asked for (even more than I ever expected). > > So, RFC2882-bis changes the suntax of in three ways: > 1. left of the '@', is completely gone (leaving just > ) > 2. right of the '@', has disappeared from > (indeed, it is gone from too) > 3. NO-WS-CTL has also disappeared from (and from > too) > > So, starting from USEFOR being a subset of the RFC2822 , > it is now almost the other way around - we allow too much! The only > remaining differences are that we still need to forbid '>', and we impose > a 250 character limit on the overall length. And I decided not to push my > luck any further by trying to fix those. I reckon we could live with them. > > So the question now arises of whether we should try to bring USEFOR into > line. Granted that USEFOR has now passed its last call (even though not > yet published as an RFC), it would be necessary for us to seek leave from > the IESG to take it back for one further Draft (there is precedent for > that, since it happened that way for the NNTP draft that is now RFC3977). > I think the changes necessary are rather more than could be done at the > final AUTH48 stage. > > The change that I would propose would simply be to remove that ugly syntax > and replace it with something pretty close to what is in RFC2822-bis. The > only differences needed would be to forbid '>' in and to impose > that 250 character limit, and to apply suitable word-smithing to bring > everything else into line. > > We MIGHT go further by basing USEFOR as a whole on RFC2822-bis rather than > on RFC2822. But we should make it clear before we embark on this exercise > that NOTHING else is to be changed that does not arise directly from the > RFC2822-bis changes. We have already achieved consensus on everything else > in USEFOR, and I have no desire at all to change any of that. > > {The only other major difference between USEFOR and RFC2822 is that SP > after ':' in headers. It soon became clear that they were not going to > budge on that, although there was some support for a non-normative NOTE > suggesting that such as SP was a good practice for reasons of > interoperability with Usenet (and such a NOTE might yet get in).} > > Received: from balder-227.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JGpxl9035933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.13.5/Submit) id m2JGpx1i035932; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: balder-227.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m2JGptJd035917 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:51:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3^clerew#man^ac#uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.287) id 47e14367.1ca2.13e0 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:31 +0000 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m2JGkFS8012468 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:15 GMT Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id m2JGkE5o012464 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:46:14 GMT To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:24764 Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: RFC2822bis, Message-IDs and USEFOR Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:11:06 GMT Lines: 65 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Because of some unfortunate properties of Message-IDs as defined in RFC2822, USEFOR contains some extremely ugly syntax so as to permit the greatest possible subset of what RFC2822 allows that will nevertheless work in Usenet. But the fact that it succeeds in doing just that does not make it any the less ugly :-( . We agreed way back that, when RFC2822 came up for revision, we should press for changes that would make it more Usenet-friendly. That revision has now taken place, and is on the verge of Last Call (draft-resnick-2822upd-06.txt). Frank and I have been campaigning throughout for suitable changes to be made, with occasional but useful assistance from Russ and Alexei, and, after much persistance, we have gained most of what we asked for (even more than I ever expected). So, RFC2882-bis changes the suntax of in three ways: 1. left of the '@', is completely gone (leaving just ) 2. right of the '@', has disappeared from (indeed, it is gone from too) 3. NO-WS-CTL has also disappeared from (and from too) So, starting from USEFOR being a subset of the RFC2822 , it is now almost the other way around - we allow too much! The only remaining differences are that we still need to forbid '>', and we impose a 250 character limit on the overall length. And I decided not to push my luck any further by trying to fix those. I reckon we could live with them. So the question now arises of whether we should try to bring USEFOR into line. Granted that USEFOR has now passed its last call (even though not yet published as an RFC), it would be necessary for us to seek leave from the IESG to take it back for one further Draft (there is precedent for that, since it happened that way for the NNTP draft that is now RFC3977). I think the changes necessary are rather more than could be done at the final AUTH48 stage. The change that I would propose would simply be to remove that ugly syntax and replace it with something pretty close to what is in RFC2822-bis. The only differences needed would be to forbid '>' in and to impose that 250 character limit, and to apply suitable word-smithing to bring everything else into line. We MIGHT go further by basing USEFOR as a whole on RFC2822-bis rather than on RFC2822. But we should make it clear before we embark on this exercise that NOTHING else is to be changed that does not arise directly from the RFC2822-bis changes. We have already achieved consensus on everything else in USEFOR, and I have no desire at all to change any of that. {The only other major difference between USEFOR and RFC2822 is that SP after ':' in headers. It soon became clear that they were not going to budge on that, although there was some support for a non-normative NOTE suggesting that such as SP was a good practice for reasons of interoperability with Usenet (and such a NOTE might yet get in).} -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5