Subject: No pumping, all goes from nature

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: Last Call issues on USEPRO
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In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:

>Charles Lindsey wrote:
>> You are missing:
>>
>> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:06:35 GMT
>> Subject: Re: ISSUE: treatment of POSTED in proto articles
>>
>Yes - it did not have ISSUE at the start of the subject line, so I took
>it as a comment. Will add.

Yes, it was a followup to an earlier message, and I did not edit the
Subject line thoroughly enough :-(.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
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From: Harald Alvestrand
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To: Charles Lindsey
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Subject: Re: Last Call issues on USEPRO
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Charles Lindsey wrote:
> In <[email-masked]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes:
>
>
>> At long last, I've gotten around to doing what should have been done in
>> September: Collate the list of Last Call comments.
>>
>
>
>> The following were raised as ISSUEs, and have been assigned issue numbers:
>>
>
>
>> *#1582** USEPRO LC 4.3 / 5.2.3: 4.3 overlooks chkscope
>> **#1583** USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages
>> **#1584 **USEPRO LC 3.2.1: Adding Injection-Date at posting agent
>> **#1585 **USEPRO LC : Length and final dots of newsgroups descriptions
>>
>
> You are missing:
>
> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:06:35 GMT
> Subject: Re: ISSUE: treatment of POSTED in proto articles
>
Yes - it did not have ISSUE at the start of the subject line, so I took
it as a comment. Will add.
> Which I think is the major item oustanding. Russ agrees that a current
> MUST ought to be reduced to SHOULD, but I would prefer to reduce it beyond
> that, so further opinions are needed.
>
> #1584 also needs to be addressed, but Russ seems to agree that my
> suggested wording is needed, or something like it, so it is just a matter
> of rubber-stamping or otherwise by the WG.
>
> I think the others are now fixed.
>
>

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From: Thorfinn
To: Russ Allbery
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Subject: Re: Last Call issues on USEPRO
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 12:08:48 +1100
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On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:11, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> **#1583** USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages
>
> There are several individual questions here.
>
> One is handling of subhierarchies in combination with groups with
> the same
> name as the hierarchy. I generally agree with Charles here that there
> isn't a better way of handling the edge case than what we currently
> have,
> and the group at the top of the sub-hierarchy will have to be listed
> in
> the parent checkgroups.

Sounds workable to me. Not the nicest solution, but I can't think of
any more correct way to do it.

> Another is the serial number. I think there are two viable options
> here:
> unlimited-length serial numbers (the current text) or sequence-space
> arithmetic. I lean mildly towards the current text just because I
> don't
> want to have to write the text for sequence-space arithmetic, and I
> find
> persuasive the argument that unlimited-length numbers can be checked
> with
> ASCII comparison and don't need to be treated as numbers.

That was my argument. :-) ( strlen(a, b) || strcmp(a, b) ) is
perfectly sensible as a serial number comparator, assuming trimming of
any leading zeroes and whitespace and validation that the rest of the
string is digits. Not sure if we have some kind of notes-to-the-
implementor, but that may be worth putting in as such a note.

> Another is what should be done with a checkgroups that doesn't have a
> serial number when checkgroups for that hierarchy previously did
> have a
> serial number. I think this is a gap in the current specification.

Once you've accepted a serial number checkgroups, I think that you're
stuck with serial numbers, and non-serial checkgroups should be
ignored. Anything else seems to me to suffer the same issue as reset
messages below - there's no real way to definitively determine that
you're somehow supposed to stop caring about serial numbers.

I don't know if any extra wording is required to achieve that. If so,
it should probably be added.

> The last is whether there's a means to reset the serial number.
> Currently
> there isn't.

Not really an issue if you go with either unlimited length or sequence
space arithmetic as the options for serial number. Neither of them
require a means to reset the serial number - and in fact in both cases
it's most likely counterproductive to have such a mechanism, since
there is no way to guarantee that any reset message is delivered.

> It may be worth splitting this point into four issues; the first and
> the
> last may already be resolved, depending on whether anyone wants to
> advocate doing something different about them than what we have now.

Well, my comments above. :-) I have nothing to say on the other issues.

Meep,

Thorf

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To: Usefor Mailing List
Subject: Re: Last Call issues on USEPRO
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue\, 28 Oct 2008 08\:07\:37 +0100")
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From: Russ Allbery
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Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:11:27 -0800
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Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes:

> *#1582** USEPRO LC 4.3 / 5.2.3: 4.3 overlooks chkscope

Resolved but not yet published, as mentioned in the other message.

> **#1583** USEPRO LC 5.2.3: Checkgroups control messages

There are several individual questions here.

One is handling of subhierarchies in combination with groups with the same
name as the hierarchy. I generally agree with Charles here that there
isn't a better way of handling the edge case than what we currently have,
and the group at the top of the sub-hierarchy will have to be listed in
the parent checkgroups.

Another is the serial number. I think there are two viable options here:
unlimited-length serial numbers (the current text) or sequence-space
arithmetic. I lean mildly towards the current text just because I don't
want to have to write the text for sequence-space arithmetic, and I find
persuasive the argument that unlimited-length numbers can be checked with
ASCII comparison and don't need to be treated as numbers.

Another is what should be done with a checkgroups that doesn't have a
serial number when checkgroups for that hierarchy previously did have a
serial number. I think this is a gap in the current specification.

The last is whether there's a means to reset the serial number. Currently
there isn't.

It may be worth splitting this point into four issues; the first and the
last may already be resolved, depending on whether anyone wants to
advocate doing something different about them than what we have now.

> I also have a couple of USEPRO issues in the tracker that don't seem to
> have been formally closed (another error by the chair, sorry 'bout
> that):

> 1412 USEPRO 5.3: Cancel newsgroups: matching

I remain opposed to this change. I think we need a consensus ruling from
a chair on it. I don't believe that it has consensus, but I'm biased by
being opposed, so I shouldn't judge that.

> 1413 USEPRO 5.5: ihave/sendme syntax

This is resolved.

> 1414 USEPRO 3.2.1: delimiter for multiple Path identities

This is resolved. The first text option in that ticket is in the current
draft.

> 1415 USEPRO 3.2.1 - Number of path entries per site

Still open. I think this needs a consensus ruling. I don't believe the
proposed change is necessary, since for the purposes of the protocol
multiple systems within an ISP can be considered as one news server and
what happens internally is a black box.

> 1417 USEPRO 3.4: Injecting-agent modification of message-ID

This is resolved with the text mentioned in the ticket.

> 1479 USEPRO: Whether moderators SHOULD retain message-ID

Currently, we say:

Moderators are encouraged to retain the Message-ID header
field if it is valid, and also retain the Date header field
unless it appears to be stale (72 hours or more in the past)
for reasons understood by the moderator (such as delays in the
moderation process) in which case they MAY substitute the
current date. Any Injection-Date, Injection-Info, or Xref
header fields already present MUST be removed.

The question is whether the encouragement should be normative. This is
still open.

> 1482 USEPRO 3.2: Possibility to use non-resolvable domain name as
> path-identity

This is currently permitted by:

A fully-qualified domain name (FQDN) within a domain
affiliated with the administrators of the agent and guaranteed
to be unique by the administrators of that domain. For
example, the uniqueness of server.example.org could be
guaranteed by the administrator of example.org even if there
is no DNS record for server.example.org itself.

The proposal is to say that this is a SHOULD NOT in at least some cases
(the specific case cited is using foo.com when only news.foo.com exists in
DNS). Currently, we only say that it's not preferred. This is still
open.

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Last Call issues on USEPRO
In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu\, 30 Oct 2008 15\:27\:23 GMT")
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"Charles Lindsey" writes:

>> **#1584 **USEPRO LC 3.2.1: Adding Injection-Date at posting agent

> #1584 also needs to be addressed, but Russ seems to agree that my
> suggested wording is needed, or something like it, so it is just a
> matter of rubber-stamping or otherwise by the WG.

Can you remind me of what your suggested wording is here? I just finished
spending two weeks and change at the coast ignoring computers, and I'm
afraid a lot of this has fallen out of my head.

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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Subject: Re: #1582 Re: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml)
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]> (Harald Tveit Alvestrand's message of "Tue\, 28 Oct 2008 18\:26\:07 +0100")
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Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes:

> I'm taking this checkin as resolution of issue #1582.

Looks right to me.

> This is not yet reflected in a published draft; I assume it will be in
> -13.

Correct. I can publish that at any time (now that I'm back from
vacation).

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])