From nobody Fri Feb 7 12:25:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDC3120115 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:25:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EQElVfLVxsBQ for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp96.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp96.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30E331200C4 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 12:25:11 -0800 (PST) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp5.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 033DB258D9; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 15:25:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [10.1.3.91] (d75-159-246-1.abhsia.telus.net [75.159.246.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.7.12); Fri, 07 Feb 2020 15:25:10 -0500 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 13:25:08 -0700 Cc: v3@ietf.org To: dispatch@ietf.org, "art@ietf.org" Message-Id: <5E861EFD-D506-4F33-95CA-BCA807B78ECD@iii.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: [V3] RealTime Internet Peering for Telephony (RIPT) BoF Proposal X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 20:25:16 -0000 We are discussing a BOF at IETF 107 on the RIPT (used to be RIPP) on the = v3@ietf.org mailing list.=20 Please join the list at https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 Thanks, Cullen=20 Description: Though extremely successful and deployed on massive scales, the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) - as a 20 year old protocol - is showing its age. It is difficult to deploy SIP technologies into modern public cloud platforms. Its usage of raw IPs and ports, its load balancing techniques, and its state model, make it incompatible with services like global load balancers, autoscaling, service meshes, and so on.=20 =20 As such, the goal of this BoF is to create a new protocol that enables signaling and real-time interactive voice and video to operate = natively ontop of modern web platforms. This means that: =20 1. It needs to use HTTP URLs for addressing, and media and signaling can be sent in this way.=20 =20 2. It follows the HTTP connectionless model, in that, clients can = refresh their state and manipulate the state, and can do so from any different number of clients. =20 3. It aligns signaling and media state into a single piece of state, allowing clients to manipulate it with HTTP rpc operations =20 4. It utilizes modern http cloud security techniques, including OAuth, server-side TLS, and so on. =20 5. It utilizes modern techniques for load balancing and high = availability used in scaled web cloud environments =20 6. It makes use of modern http rpc techniques and data formatting =20 7. It follows modern web practice and makes security features mandatory, not optional (including e2e media encryption, though the media flows = HbH) =20 =20 The recent efforts to standardize HTTP3 using QUIC, make it possible to achieve the above without unacceptable latency and HOL blocking, = inherent in TCP-based protocols. =20 =20 To remedy this, a design team put together a draft specification called RIPP, which takes advantage of HTTP3 and QUIC to enable real-time communicatins over those protocols, without extending or changing them. =20 The purpose of the BoF is to gain consensus on the formation of a working group to work on this problem. A strong goal is to=20 build code and specifications simultaneously.=20 =20 =20 Relevant Drafts: =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ript/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-inbound/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-sipdiffs/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-webrtc/ =20 =20 From nobody Thu Feb 13 10:49:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietf.org Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F67120232; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:49:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: avezza@amsl.com, adam@nostrum.com, ript-chairs@ietf.org, v3@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158161977599.20514.10766697477623578945.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 10:49:35 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [V3] ript - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:49:41 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Amy K. Vezza, on behalf of the ript working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Realtime Internet Peering for Telephony Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: httpbis quic sipcore tls wpack webtrans People who must be present: Adam Roach Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 14 14:00:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF29C1200EC for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:00:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_BYAPR06MB43914433BF91CE216E6123A6FB150BYAPR06MB4391namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: five9.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3d674d5a-bd9e-4f06-e658-08d7b1993de8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 22:00:02.1521 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f6c5114f-7396-4a09-af1e-98ee46f99bdb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: iWrSplw7V91DblSM9cns7wxibR/S1mQOP/043hEwQSSWgk2q2tSDH9enojqrLg/Cj/TfxtUa0n97fZSN/UphcQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB4472 Archived-At: Subject: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:00:11 -0000 --_000_BYAPR06MB43914433BF91CE216E6123A6FB150BYAPR06MB4391namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good news folks - RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we'll be meeting. G= oal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussion is in order.= Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments please: This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media packets. The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today. The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop clients, mobile apps and servers. The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise to service provider). [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] The group will do its work in conjunction with active software development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly into protocol development. The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR working groups. Milestones: Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG Thx, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan Rosenberg CTO and Head of AI, Five9 ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e= -mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attac= hments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any= purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this= e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities= . --_000_BYAPR06MB43914433BF91CE216E6123A6FB150BYAPR06MB4391namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good news folks – RIPT bof was approved for IE= TF107 and we’ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As su= ch, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draf= t charter. Comments please:

 

 

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

 

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.

 

It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.=

 

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

 

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

 

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

 

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

 

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

 

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

 

Milestones:

 

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= o:p>

 

Thx,

Jonathan R.

 

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

 



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are= not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy = the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the conte= nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright= in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated = entities.
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Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:14:36 +0000 From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "v3@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Current RIPT drafts - TLD summary of all four and key points to know Thread-Index: AdXjhCPAUyk3fX9eQna5wrXwiO3Drg== Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:14:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jdrosen@five9.com; x-originating-ip: [108.35.46.157] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c1ce481c-cef7-4ba4-2b9f-08d7b19b4711 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR06MB5384: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5236; x-forefront-prvs: 03137AC81E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(366004)(346002)(396003)(136003)(376002)(39860400002)(199004)(189003)(5660300002)(316002)(52536014)(66476007)(86362001)(9686003)(71200400001)(66946007)(33656002)(76116006)(6916009)(55016002)(186003)(966005)(66556008)(64756008)(81166006)(8676002)(8936002)(81156014)(6506007)(478600001)(66446008)(26005)(2906002)(7696005); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: five9.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c1ce481c-cef7-4ba4-2b9f-08d7b19b4711 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 22:14:36.4420 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f6c5114f-7396-4a09-af1e-98ee46f99bdb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: MKHKsbQNoDVIfb1Ll7j74tSw2PLs8qSUQiYJaVABN8akCW0oMWFjlMVuJf9DLi7TRVTT+KkT94yZ2BIWAlUVVQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR06MB5384 Archived-At: Subject: [V3] Current RIPT drafts - TLD summary of all four and key points to know X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:14:43 -0000 To help get discussion going - here are the four drafts that we've got subm= itted on this topic and some of the key design decisions which are likely t= o spark comment: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ript/ The core protocol. Basically sends signaling, media and codec negotiation o= ver http3. Uses webtransport + fallback to a single transaction per media chunk to ens= ure no HOL blocking Bidirectional event streams for signaling for calls using long-running GET = and PUT (answered, proceeding, end, etc) Auto-configuration for URIs and bearer tokens for sip trunking use cases Caller ID ONLY via STIR passports - verifier role is not used because clien= t gets a cert and inserts passport itself Media negotiation is NOT offer/answer - its an advertisement/directive mode= l where advertisement is relatively static, and server just tells client wh= at to do (directive) Only supports outbound calling, not inbound. Inbound calls supported by pro= visioning a 'terminal group' aka 'TG' (similar to trunk group) in reverse d= irection - for sip trunking TG construct tells the client what phone numbers it can use as callerID and= what numbers it can call outbound https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-inbound/ Extension that focuses on single-user device cases - softphone, IP phone, v= ideo endpoint. Assumes client gets push notifications out of band - not handled by this sp= ec (so this is NOT like sip-outbound) Extends core protocol to allow for events that support receiving calls and = answering them Multi-device (multiple phones for same user) is natively supported in the c= ore protocol not via 'forking' but through server resource model Description on how to handle common single-user device cases like call move= , pull, remote-in-use, etc. which are all easy when state is on server https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-sipdiffs/ This doc is basically "WTF is this RIPT thing, for SIP people". So if you'v= e never heard of sip you don't need to read this doc. Reviews the significant design chocies made by RIPT which differ from SIP (= many of which are merely inherited by being an http app) Analysis of how much of SIP specs are replaced by RIPT (incomplete) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-webrtc/ Sketch of thoughts on webRTC and p2p media with RIPT Thx, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan Rosenberg CTO and Head of AI, Five9 ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e= -mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attac= hments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any= purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this= e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities= . From nobody Fri Feb 14 15:56:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 823431201CE for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:56:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jFHytNMiJ2Ta for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D15FA120013 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:56:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id n18so12554193ljo.7 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:56:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cS1nnNSAsvaGgegYZpsxHI+GQ5PMhpeHUhIz4ta4lns=; b=JX5SC7l3RPq0e0T7ugfbyomXN0++9a0sW425vr0EdoQlby3rFWkB4YxWAzvo6pbpWR JOON6vJKddbTvdc9OC1c+0MWbaHEAUWcZy8PrO7rT3njEJFZ2wppDUdy49ByqKaAFsCu MYOyLTKTbdvI8F+8jd3T3rQwTxAQidD29rMMB9w/VEkrfteBTchJPfquB08OOEyS3tgh tWmwlSojJKF88WTa2yDBnO7/Ptlk363tnvzDRt8tRojIImkAu+npBVZ8+5eZfwyXMXHC L6ehcpkagYB23IwprY6DGHaz//K+J67IuUP6emTL/JpY/5C5oak8/cYHarVgfzxo7OAp OuXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cS1nnNSAsvaGgegYZpsxHI+GQ5PMhpeHUhIz4ta4lns=; b=NpyYnkDhKZNG5Z1I71L094mSeUkWDsgG1wYqtGftWb4n9kj59rxfLsPFWgqO/RHJP+ ixLyrsdN1ur8tuEJ8hYyd/fkSal7am4F6RCm7s7SZ2WokYCqRIFXFHKnDIdNej9QNTEd SfuhvFhW6UyjnW939FwzhwmfQgyTIvA/u3NUJI+VHNriKs1meSA2wdoCVIAxvQLb+lkJ xIOnrLubPmaG5OSLzuPMNcek/lY7bcbttxBH9BQvAC7IA/rSkVJwOLjImkSiPFxLVLfX xahrr4MDkNlYsZ++kHHC/PIwIkH6pyMRVQHGHw9ZrZqjHZFu8aGMH4O77XRwmcpK8yMh 4rog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVs/uVHXnPXAOf5yoKe6RyjO46O7b9nbPh1lHoUaBwynh32BYkF Iqb963fs4PrjjuniW4JtJzWd9qMcXPx0TfQDXxFhu4tp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzE3vOsSQvj34b109XpBUw63qsZjE35t/4n4/gSsjEV1aHO2i4MeMs7vlLCFaCvYOGsaiMIp8SsXsmssYz9rxg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:10f:: with SMTP id a15mr3531124ljb.237.1581724568448; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 15:56:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:55:42 -0600 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "v3@ietf.org" , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000008f1e2059e91f34d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:56:28 -0000 --00000000000008f1e2059e91f34d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jonathan, Thank you for this e-mail, and especially for the one describing the four drafts that describe what you're thinking of. I have one point of confusion, inline below. On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we=E2=80= =99ll be meeting. > Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussion is in > order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments please: > > > > > > This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating > > atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, > > including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media > > packets. > > > > The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of > > real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These > > systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they > > enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time > > communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take > > advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. > I'm confused about the mention of RTP here. From my understanding so far, RTP is MOSTLY out of the proposed scope, but this sentence made me think that RTP will be changed or replaced, or encapsulated in QUIC, or something else wild in this proposed working group, the way SIP is being replaced. Is it correct that "transmission of media packets" refers to signaling necessary to tell each endpoint what the media path will look like (I saw your P2P media open issue), or are you thinking about something else? Would removing "and RTP" make a difference for the proposed working group's scope? Best, Spencer > It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its > > many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the > > functionality in widespread actual usage today. > > > > The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization > > (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The > > protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is > > out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as > > MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. > > > > This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop > > clients, mobile apps and servers. > > > > The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that > > automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on > > organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise > > to service provider). > > > > [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] > > > > The group will do its work in conjunction with active software > > development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly > > into protocol development. > > > > The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR > > working groups. > > > > Milestones: > > > > Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG > > Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG > > > > Thx, > > Jonathan R. > > > > -- > > Jonathan Rosenberg > > CTO and Head of AI, Five9 > > > > ------------------------------ > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain > confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access = by > the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any > party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in > this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission a= nd > its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use > it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. > Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its > affiliated entities. > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --00000000000008f1e2059e91f34d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Jonathan,=C2=A0

Thank you for this e-mail, and especially for the one descr= ibing the four drafts that describe what you're thinking of.=C2=A0

I have one point of confusion, inline below.=C2=A0
On F= ri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:

Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for = IETF107 and we=E2=80=99ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. A= s such, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a = draft charter. Comments please:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

=C2=A0

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.


I'm confused about the mention = of RTP here. From my understanding so far, RTP is MOSTLY out of the propose= d scope, but this sentence made me think that RTP will be changed or replac= ed, or encapsulated in QUIC, or something else wild in this proposed workin= g group, the way SIP is being replaced. Is it correct that "transmissi= on of media packets" refers to signaling necessary to tell each endpoi= nt what the media path will look like (I saw your P2P media open issue), or= are you thinking about something else?

Would remo= ving "and RTP" make a difference for the proposed working group&#= 39;s scope?

Best,=C2=A0

S= pencer
=C2=A0

It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.

=C2=A0

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

=C2=A0

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

=C2=A0

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

=C2=A0

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

=C2=A0

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

=C2=A0

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

=C2=A0

Milestones:

=C2=A0

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG=

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= u>

=C2=A0

Thx,

Jonathan R.

=C2=A0

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

=C2=A0



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are= not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy = the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the conte= nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright= in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated = entities.
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and SIP). Basically, the output of the codec is placed into something called a 'media chunk' which adds a few parameters which are similar to RTP (i.e., timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET response. No doubt an issue of contention will be whether we should just encapsulate RTP vs. whats in the draft. -Jonathan R. On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:57 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Jonathan, > > Thank you for this e-mail, and especially for the one describing the four > drafts that describe what you're thinking of. > > I have one point of confusion, inline below. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg > wrote: > >> Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we=E2=80= =99ll be meeting. >> Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussion is in >> order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments please= : >> >> >> >> >> >> This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating >> >> atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, >> >> including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media >> >> packets. >> >> >> >> The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of >> >> real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These >> >> systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they >> >> enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time >> >> communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take >> >> advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. >> > > I'm confused about the mention of RTP here. From my understanding so far, > RTP is MOSTLY out of the proposed scope, but this sentence made me think > that RTP will be changed or replaced, or encapsulated in QUIC, or somethi= ng > else wild in this proposed working group, the way SIP is being replaced. = Is > it correct that "transmission of media packets" refers to signaling > necessary to tell each endpoint what the media path will look like (I saw > your P2P media open issue), or are you thinking about something else? > > Would removing "and RTP" make a difference for the proposed working > group's scope? > > Best, > > Spencer > > >> It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its >> >> many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the >> >> functionality in widespread actual usage today. >> >> >> >> The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization >> >> (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The >> >> protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is >> >> out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as >> >> MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. >> >> >> >> This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop >> >> clients, mobile apps and servers. >> >> >> >> The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that >> >> automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on >> >> organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise >> >> to service provider). >> >> >> >> [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] >> >> >> >> The group will do its work in conjunction with active software >> >> development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly >> >> into protocol development. >> >> >> >> The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR >> >> working groups. >> >> >> >> Milestones: >> >> >> >> Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG >> >> Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG >> >> >> >> Thx, >> >> Jonathan R. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Jonathan Rosenberg >> >> CTO and Head of AI, Five9 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain >> confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access= by >> the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from an= y >> party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in >> this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, >> please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission = and >> its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, us= e >> it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. >> Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its >> affiliated entities. >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --=20 Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --000000000000ac20bd059e923814 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and S= IP).

Basically, the output of the codec is placed into s= omething called a 'media chunk' which adds a few parameters which a= re similar to RTP (i.e., timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET r= esponse.

No doubt an issue of contention will be w= hether=C2=A0we should just encapsulate RTP vs. whats in the draft.

-Jonathan R.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:57 PM Spencer = Dawkins at IETF <spence= rdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Jonathan,=C2= =A0

Thank you for this e-mail, and esp= ecially for the one describing the four drafts that describe what you'r= e thinking of.=C2=A0

I have one point of confusion= , inline below.=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg <= ;jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:

Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for = IETF107 and we=E2=80=99ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. A= s such, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a = draft charter. Comments please:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

=C2=A0

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.





It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.

=C2=A0

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

=C2=A0

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

=C2=A0

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

=C2=A0

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

=C2=A0

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

=C2=A0

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

=C2=A0

Milestones:

=C2=A0

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG=

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= u>

=C2=A0

Thx,

Jonathan R.

=C2=A0

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

=C2=A0



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are= not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy = the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the conte= nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright= in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated = entities.
--
V3 mailing list
V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3
--
V3 mailing list
V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3


--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<= /a>
http://www.jdro= sen.net
--000000000000ac20bd059e923814-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 17:38:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460B9120026 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:38:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1rfrAZ7IWvk for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3816112002F for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id v201so7963685lfa.11 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:38:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Hb5DHk7DQT2Nv02OJFlqe2dyx7+VstBtqP6ZX9TRRN0=; b=Y7bhCTJEV+kWEspwYJvE5HaCan0PSyJ5Fidz/3Sckg+KOFvJXll/xXT2wQhww7S1DO BRR8y8xHtllNlXHiUgn+713BHq1WI8Y46KcUZAHAIYLBGh8LfYvgQnZQGHH7NgbsFPUh AC3ETgkq3ClZ6s5r013ct5ZkmlSd6qByZVHFKmHS3U0RIK+pfSy94oWa/phteQc2yf1Z mUMNMZz8djBaxwKSr+UezeLbivnUHJhzO8UPq6F+TclOzzYhXuEi8UZy5k3sKyia4Ejj t1eqBNTqpQl3evGiw6/K15c7Eb03+XboZb4DghvgoWC4acax4co9eGXdXpcF+c2DWGwY X/bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Hb5DHk7DQT2Nv02OJFlqe2dyx7+VstBtqP6ZX9TRRN0=; b=fTLviO80rMYH04ZCknaBPYF0lApcdJREaJuzSkw1OXoWAHz+2yen4Qc07sWazFvZiF v+oXg3cKWZzgiUzQ90SJ9iU+AMY/1lY9Y9XXO7HweLArkDsyRPqgjKUKUZ46ETkFUFf4 za81VcwmUmQOkX8m/rLpIFN7qtf/VmJcmjbCfqscmSVtVAdZylthrTQ3n6YWQ6TlYw4R 0WhZL7EvZheBncMTF98qOxCq9cbtfm2v5+w1aY/mLnf5gIc8yNyLUlt4QGif49yIYcT7 kTd66CdQTzz+047/ya/Uc2+r78rDXux0MNQjm+LOF/ZKRiRghwc3rYx85NxFJClvXucR dtiw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnyUIPfm0X7kPjZJLDdTn734OfulTke91GAuNIy3c26bpTBPca ievdr5GSknezduLsBiR8vPuDpU3fmrcOooJ/Ti0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx9pGRy4llxE1rV09y8zRrAvmWxo1Df06r5UR93kj0VEbJpwrI31tp00vqZVrRpEQz59mv91Q2rYB7Pb75Fgmk= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5549:: with SMTP id l9mr2946200lfk.53.1581730714277; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:38:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:38:08 -0600 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005adbe2059e9361fa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 01:38:40 -0000 --0000000000005adbe2059e9361fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jonathan, On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:16 PM Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and SIP). > > Basically, the output of the codec is placed into something called a > 'media chunk' which adds a few parameters which are similar to RTP (i.e., > timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET response. > > No doubt an issue of contention will be whether we should just encapsulat= e > RTP vs. whats in the draft. > That's very clear, as you explain it. Perhaps it's worth a mention in the proposed charter? Also, perhaps adding AVTCORE as one of the coordinated-with working groups? Best, Spencer > > -Jonathan R. > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:57 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, Jonathan, >> >> Thank you for this e-mail, and especially for the one describing the fou= r >> drafts that describe what you're thinking of. >> >> I have one point of confusion, inline below. >> >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg >> wrote: >> >>> Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we=E2= =80=99ll be >>> meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussio= n is >>> in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments pl= ease: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating >>> >>> atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, >>> >>> including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media >>> >>> packets. >>> >>> >>> >>> The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of >>> >>> real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These >>> >>> systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they >>> >>> enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time >>> >>> communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take >>> >>> advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. >>> >> >> I'm confused about the mention of RTP here. From my understanding so far= , >> RTP is MOSTLY out of the proposed scope, but this sentence made me think >> that RTP will be changed or replaced, or encapsulated in QUIC, or someth= ing >> else wild in this proposed working group, the way SIP is being replaced.= Is >> it correct that "transmission of media packets" refers to signaling >> necessary to tell each endpoint what the media path will look like (I sa= w >> your P2P media open issue), or are you thinking about something else? >> >> Would removing "and RTP" make a difference for the proposed working >> group's scope? >> >> Best, >> >> Spencer >> >> >>> It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its >>> >>> many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting th= e >>> >>> functionality in widespread actual usage today. >>> >>> >>> >>> The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization >>> >>> (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The >>> >>> protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is >>> >>> out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as >>> >>> MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. >>> >>> >>> >>> This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop >>> >>> clients, mobile apps and servers. >>> >>> >>> >>> The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that >>> >>> automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on >>> >>> organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise >>> >>> to service provider). >>> >>> >>> >>> [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] >>> >>> >>> >>> The group will do its work in conjunction with active software >>> >>> development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly >>> >>> into protocol development. >>> >>> >>> >>> The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR >>> >>> working groups. >>> >>> >>> >>> Milestones: >>> >>> >>> >>> Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG >>> >>> Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG >>> >>> >>> >>> Thx, >>> >>> Jonathan R. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Jonathan Rosenberg >>> >>> CTO and Head of AI, Five9 >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain >>> confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Acces= s by >>> the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from a= ny >>> party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained i= n >>> this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, >>> please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission= and >>> its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, u= se >>> it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. >>> Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or it= s >>> affiliated entities. >>> -- >>> V3 mailing list >>> V3@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >>> >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > > > -- > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --0000000000005adbe2059e9361fa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Jonathan,=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020= at 6:16 PM Jonathan Rosenberg <j= drosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:
RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces = RTP (and SDP and SIP).

Basically, the output of the code= c is placed into something called a 'media chunk' which adds a few = parameters which are similar to RTP (i.e., timestamp) and then sent in a PU= T request or GET response.

No doubt an issue of co= ntention will be whether=C2=A0we should just encapsulate RTP vs. whats in t= he draft.

That's very clear= , as you explain it. Perhaps it's worth a mention in the proposed chart= er?=C2=A0

Also, perhaps adding AVTCORE as one of t= he coordinated-with working groups?

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0

-Jonathan R.

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 6:57 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@g= mail.com> wrote:
Hi, Jonathan,=C2=A0

Thank you for this e-mail, and especially for the o= ne describing the four drafts that describe what you're thinking of.=C2= =A0

I have one point of confusion, inline below.= =C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:

Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for = IETF107 and we=E2=80=99ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. A= s such, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a = draft charter. Comments please:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

=C2=A0

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.


I'm confused about the mention = of RTP here. From my understanding so far, RTP is MOSTLY out of the propose= d scope, but this sentence made me think that RTP will be changed or replac= ed, or encapsulated in QUIC, or something else wild in this proposed workin= g group, the way SIP is being replaced. Is it correct that "transmissi= on of media packets" refers to signaling necessary to tell each endpoi= nt what the media path will look like (I saw your P2P media open issue), or= are you thinking about something else?

Would remo= ving "and RTP" make a difference for the proposed working group&#= 39;s scope?

Best,=C2=A0

S= pencer
=C2=A0

It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.

=C2=A0

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

=C2=A0

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

=C2=A0

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

=C2=A0

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

=C2=A0

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

=C2=A0

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

=C2=A0

Milestones:

=C2=A0

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG=

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= u>

=C2=A0

Thx,

Jonathan R.

=C2=A0

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

=C2=A0



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are= not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy = the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the conte= nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright= in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated = entities.
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3
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--0000000000005adbe2059e9361fa-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 22:00:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30541200C3 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:00:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 273b2puXjblF for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from us.live555.com (us.live555.com [52.8.240.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 189AA12004E for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.live555.com [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by us.live555.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 01F600Wp009195; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 22:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Ross Finlayson In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 19:00:00 +1300 Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "v3@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 06:00:21 -0000 On Feb 15, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg = wrote: >=20 > RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and SIP). >=20 > Basically, the output of the codec is placed into something called a = 'media chunk' which adds a few parameters which are similar to RTP = (i.e., timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET response. Jonathan is =E2=80=98handwaving=E2=80=99 a bit here :-), as he = understands (more than just about anyone) that replicating the = functionality of RTP would involve a lot more than just adding a few = parameters to PUT and GET. For each media type being transported, = you=E2=80=99d need to define how data is best framed within (QUIC) = datagrams, how (optional) FEC could be used, what RTCP XR functionality = will be retained (and how), how (the equivalent of) RTP header options = would be defined/carried, etc. etc. etc. Essentially, you=E2=80=99d be = replicating all of the work that took place (over several years) within = AVT to define a RTP payload format for each media type. Therefore... > No doubt an issue of contention will be whether we should just = encapsulate RTP vs. whats in the draft. If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this is a = =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO. First, define a way to carry = RTP/RTCP packets directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the = existing RTP payload format defined for each media type could map = directly (i.e., with no more media-specific IETF standardization work = required). Even if this means that there's some duplication of = functionality between RTP and QUIC (datagrams). (Ditto for RTP over = QUIC (reliable) streams.) While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a = new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this = should not be something that we require before we define/standardize a = replacement for SIP. Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99r= e done. (RTP is starting to show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, = and has lots of existing deployment that could, ideally, be leveraged = quickly within a SIP replacement. Ross Finlayson Live Networks, Inc. http://www.live555.com/ From nobody Fri Feb 14 23:55:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F84C120052 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:55:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hu76NqF76jMU for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E72C6120274 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id v141so7350283vsv.12 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:55:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YGc0EvLDPWS/2GFkmK9zjRTlPZTjbupTcjHV9YcVfmI=; b=FZckHrkUeuBOoKe08KWcTq7KVga0G+0lx79Uv1LUlu5Xr8+O70cOx1P4IrdyZ5Kj5n xAV4vokik4BMddXCa9qAFLzba8YNafdtpGDjKYm/OkyYOlvvQ+8AMNELz1ptcPfcMfFR J39jxGTx7+dgOgzvx2cOqgjegJKOgQqyEdnVAKfVGuXFwV71gICyYipRwmFOJOxC2pS9 ZFlNXOG8iam1SKG34xeBNYGoZ7aJabOEpk3LUA74DSBdw00fbbcZOFUVYZVpjgdvy3kw OGH5aRCq9mF7V+KpSMoTSOpwjQg9kWaxAOClSKWplH9sCo79tXj1g3ncgNQAhGggWOaP qCkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YGc0EvLDPWS/2GFkmK9zjRTlPZTjbupTcjHV9YcVfmI=; b=KiIVpK5d8oo8bjaOFMZOezbnH9JwEwtD/TyZaE3FfSliBCTDpSIiASkRuxQCfXGdHe FQNlFCOFN1BeyNLmzTe7FjJ+ryO50tztHeLZb6QTevcGRBmF96MyJCXRGpxZmqqH4qkI wkmm2ZzfzX8FeS9URisWvon08Z19O7NneAGl3jgw0kce4BnFmSedXwewNX4H0S69/LDQ aitkgmUu5PmOeK7AW7tb03D8uBcVSai3dkoWvT8qsKT6DYZJVNWEAq/m6sw/VFBEus+V hYAgRlk2vJCBo7SYUVv5b7YL0D1FgxKxkMXhL0C+paHSfyXGD7DUltsFrLKbnUGamsT2 5ang== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrLYO3CZqMuZC1NCfpCvg23193K+12Z5GrjoqiCDAd7Vb+k7G7 dPXNYAhAv9oj6pP2uCQ8qdjdIoNjom295cWiNNHqSA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMdoXAEyLvFxUThbPQpmCCcrcu/otA3YkhRg8myK61K9o9iKm21th5Ir59fN0w1b8kz+tk2FA85zupRkM4iwc= X-Received: by 2002:a67:8dc8:: with SMTP id p191mr3562312vsd.231.1581753305518; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:55:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 23:54:53 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ross Finlayson Cc: "v3@ietf.org" , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e61bc1059e98a38f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2020 07:55:10 -0000 --000000000000e61bc1059e98a38f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:00 PM Ross Finlayson wrote: > On Feb 15, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg > wrote: > > > > RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and SIP). > > > > Basically, the output of the codec is placed into something called a > 'media chunk' which adds a few parameters which are similar to RTP (i.e., > timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET response. > > Jonathan is =E2=80=98handwaving=E2=80=99 a bit here :-), as he understand= s (more than just > about anyone) that replicating the functionality of RTP would involve a l= ot > more than just adding a few parameters to PUT and GET. For each media ty= pe > being transported, you=E2=80=99d need to define how data is best framed w= ithin > (QUIC) datagrams, how (optional) FEC could be used, what RTCP XR > functionality will be retained (and how), how (the equivalent of) RTP > header options would be defined/carried, etc. etc. etc. Essentially, you= =E2=80=99d > be replicating all of the work that took place (over several years) withi= n > AVT to define a RTP payload format for each media type. Therefore... > > > > No doubt an issue of contention will be whether we should just > encapsulate RTP vs. whats in the draft. > > If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this is a > =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO. First, define a way to carry RTP/RTC= P packets directly > in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the existing RTP payload format > defined for each media type could map directly (i.e., with no more > media-specific IETF standardization work required). Even if this means > that there's some duplication of functionality between RTP and QUIC > (datagrams). (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) streams.) > Yes, this is my preferred approach. There still will be a lot of work just to get this up and running, figure out how congestion control works in this world, and avoid ending up with a lot of bloat from the encapsulation. Assuming this works, we get fairly straightforward gatewaying between the old and new worlds. > While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a new > version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this should n= ot > be something that we require before we define/standardize a replacement f= or > SIP. Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re done. (RTP i= s starting to show > its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, and has lots of existing deployment= that > could, ideally, be leveraged quickly within a SIP replacement. > > > Ross Finlayson > Live Networks, Inc. > http://www.live555.com/ > > > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --000000000000e61bc1059e98a38f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:00 PM Ross= Finlayson <finlayson@live555.c= om> wrote:
jdrosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:
>
> RTP is in scope, in that, RIPT replaces RTP (and SDP and SIP).
>
> Basically, the output of the codec is placed into something called a &= #39;media chunk' which adds a few parameters which are similar to RTP (= i.e., timestamp) and then sent in a PUT request or GET response.

Jonathan is =E2=80=98handwaving=E2=80=99 a bit here :-), as he understands = (more than just about anyone) that replicating the functionality of RTP wou= ld involve a lot more than just adding a few parameters to PUT and GET.=C2= =A0 For each media type being transported, you=E2=80=99d need to define how= data is best framed within (QUIC) datagrams, how (optional) FEC could be u= sed, what RTCP XR functionality will be retained (and how), how (the equiva= lent of) RTP header options would be defined/carried, etc. etc. etc.=C2=A0 = Essentially, you=E2=80=99d be replicating all of the work that took place (= over several years) within AVT to define a RTP payload format for each medi= a type.=C2=A0 Therefore...


> No doubt an issue of contention will be whether we should just encapsu= late RTP vs. whats in the draft.

If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this is a = =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO.=C2=A0 First, define a way to carry RTP/= RTCP packets directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the existing R= TP payload format defined for each media type could map directly (i.e., wit= h no more media-specific IETF standardization work required).=C2=A0 Even if= this means that there's some duplication of functionality between RTP = and QUIC (datagrams).=C2=A0 (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) streams.)

Yes, this is my preferred approach. Ther= e still will be a lot of work just to get this up and running, figure out h= ow congestion control works in this world, and avoid ending up with a lot o= f bloat from the encapsulation. Assuming this works, we get fairly straight= forward gatewaying between the old and new worlds.


While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a new v= ersion (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this should not = be something that we require before we define/standardize a replacement for= SIP.=C2=A0 Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re done.=C2= =A0 (RTP is starting to show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, and has = lots of existing deployment that could, ideally, be leveraged quickly withi= n a SIP replacement.


Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/


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(Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1j44sY-00AcMT-NK for v3@ietf.org; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 07:33:46 -0800 To: v3@ietf.org References: From: Steve Donovan Message-ID: <9d7c093f-45bb-f779-dcfc-1fce1b014611@usdonovans.com> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 09:33:34 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5DE74DDFDE46FE7ADFEA0B2B" Content-Language: en-US X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz131.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: srdonovan@usdonovans.com X-Authenticated-Sender: biz131.inmotionhosting.com: srdonovan@usdonovans.com X-Originating-IP: 66.117.0.129 X-SpamExperts-Domain: biz131.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 66.117.0.129 Authentication-Results: servconfig.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.117.0.129@biz131.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined 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Et4ylpE/2NSjXgE3zAM2LmnerTY8zHtWEw0/8Lc3AJ94CrRrVf5vm6Il+9c1f5+H6P8UimsI1JuL kyxl+s9t81KNtzNYkh4M3H0Q+Lb6Vv+CxgZM1ab1UhEer4sS0CkNGoBpa68NOkem8ZrIsOxSJo9M gnuWp33KKvSLEepfzmW/VTBD X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se1-lax1.servconfig.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:33:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DE74DDFDE46FE7ADFEA0B2B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan, Cullen, For the following: "It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today." How do you envision defining the "functionality that is in widespread actual usage today?" Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing SIP is in and what is out? Thanks, Steve --------------5DE74DDFDE46FE7ADFEA0B2B Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan, Cullen,

For the following:

"It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today."

How do you envision defining the "functionality that is in widespread actual usage today?"

Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing SIP is in and what is out?

Thanks,

Steve

--------------5DE74DDFDE46FE7ADFEA0B2B-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 08:00:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C961208D2 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hush.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TYE7cMUzawpM for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.hushmail.com (smtp2a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.237]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798231208CB for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.hushmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AB256A024A for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:00:44 +0000 (UTC) X-hush-tls-connected: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=hush.com; h=date:to:subject:from; s=hush; bh=hD70c4GaW4NsMxdyPGoq/dykt0RGdRAy9cleIe8JWXs=; b=va8j3WmLkodQOQ8Eb5kCYuiUB9EcwzNBtGSWwdwhAshWoP1tg2i3zghkh2z/OFT+cu0E1Wvwa50u1yO6L4xdjQu5ALKIGg2SmCjqne/gYi3Im9p/msgSK9jCeXa0CW5snfD3t51D2pjY18BotZirCP5cDqOiLQZJQi7oEzHbphfiwDBrHIPYm35RTB58hp/8tlyzvgrnPeF5i2cz9Ao6Wc850FL4L3GHmCeo4wSQY++ZA8gcxUBx0owbuqaAfTIf4CZhiRmy+NJs7FrpLB9RZUXyyp0WyIoJf51W7x7Axe2F22iva5RFjTqWsymEt/R6jW6ZoYZXUPRGdMeiNYR6MQ== Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w9.hushmail.com [65.39.178.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp2.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:00:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 244EC200DE; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:00:44 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:00:43 +0600 To: "Steve Donovan" , v3@ietf.org From: "Samir Srivastava" In-Reply-To: <9d7c093f-45bb-f779-dcfc-1fce1b014611@usdonovans.com> References: <9d7c093f-45bb-f779-dcfc-1fce1b014611@usdonovans.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_12bc865f811856cd20fb1c1c7393187f" Message-Id: <20200218160044.244EC200DE@smtp.hushmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:00:47 -0000 --=_12bc865f811856cd20fb1c1c7393187f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In-line below. ThanksSamir On 2/18/2020 at 9:04 PM, "Steve Donovan" wrote: Jonathan, Cullen, For the following: "It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today." How do you envision defining the "functionality that is in widespread actual usage today?" Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing SIP is in and what is out? SS>> I am in agreement for defining SIP extensions in wide usage. Thanks, Steve --=_12bc865f811856cd20fb1c1c7393187f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" In-= line below.

Thanks
Samir

On 2/18/2020 a= t 9:04 PM, "Steve Donovan" <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
=20
Jonathan, Cullen,

For the following:

"It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today."

How do you envision defining the "functionality that is in widespread actual usage today?"

Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing SIP is in and what is out?

SS>> I am in agreement for defining SIP ex= tensions in wide usage. 

Thanks,

Steve

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-0000 --00000000000054bb66059edc03ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tolga - Totally agree that pragmatic "this actually works" is crucial. This is why the following is called out in the charter: The group will do its work in conjunction with active software development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly into protocol development. I think your suggestion is a good one - that it is not just implementation of the protocol, but working on practical implementation into things like - I dont know, maybe Ribbon SBCs (hint hint) - and cloud services like amazon and google, to gain an understanding of what works. Thx, Jonathan R. On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 3:28 PM Asveren, Tolga wrote: > Definitely interesting/useful concept in general if the end result indeed > can deliver benefits on the following aspects: HA, load-balancing, > auto-scaling, cloud-friendliness. Having said that, just =E2=80=9Cgoing H= TTP=E2=80=9D > hardly would provide satisfactory results IMHO. The issues with Cloud/rea= l > tiem session (mis)match are usually due to the fact that the infrastructu= re > is tailored for certain type of applications, i.e. for the lack of a bett= er > term =E2=80=9Cweb applications=E2=80=9D. Failover, service discovery, loa= d balancing, > message retransmission/back-off/circuit breaking, what is understood as H= A > etc=E2=80=A6 are all areas where a real time session application is curre= ntly a > misfit. Yes, there are workarounds/various strategies but mostly > painful/indirect/not complete. > > > > I am optimistic that things can be made better but it really would help i= f > we make sure that each strategic decision first goes through a detailed > analysis in terms of its implementation/deployment implications/benefits > -or lack of it-. This aspect is usually not considered as an integral par= t > of protocol standardization but IMHO for this WG it should, as =E2=80=9Cm= aking life > easier=E2=80=9D is one of the core goals. Furthermore, I would argue that= following > a modular approach -as much as possible- could be useful so that certain > pieces can be plugged into the SIP/SDP world as well, e.g. HTTP > encapsulated RTP if that happens to be the choice. > > > > Thanks, > > Tolga > > > > *From:* V3 *On Behalf Of *Jonathan Rosenberg > *Sent:* Friday, February 14, 2020 5:00 PM > *To:* v3@ietf.org > *Cc:* Cullen Jennings (fluffy) > *Subject:* [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below > > > ------------------------------ > > NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sender > ------------------------------ > > > > Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we=E2=80= =99ll be meeting. > Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussion is in > order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments please: > > > > > > This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating > > atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, > > including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media > > packets. > > > > The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of > > real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These > > systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they > > enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time > > communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take > > advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. > > > > It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its > > many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the > > functionality in widespread actual usage today. > > > > The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization > > (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The > > protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is > > out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as > > MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. > > > > This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop > > clients, mobile apps and servers. > > > > The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that > > automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on > > organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise > > to service provider). > > > > [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] > > > > The group will do its work in conjunction with active software > > development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly > > into protocol development. > > > > The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR > > working groups. > > > > Milestones: > > > > Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG > > Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG > > > > Thx, > > Jonathan R. > > > > -- > > Jonathan Rosenberg > > CTO and Head of AI, Five9 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain > confidential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access = by > the intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any > party acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in > this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, > please notify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission a= nd > its attachments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use > it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. > Copyright in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its > affiliated entities. > > > ------------------------------ > Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information > of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for > the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance = or > distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strict= ly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the send= er > immediately and then delete all copies, including any attachments. > ------------------------------ > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --=20 Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --00000000000054bb66059edc03ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tolga -=C2=A0

Totally agree that pragma= tic "this actually works" is crucial. This is why the following i= s called out in the charter:

The group will do= its work in conjunction with active software
development efforts, so th= at implementation experience feeds directly
into protocol development.


I think your suggestion is a goo= d one - that it is not just implementation of the protocol, but working on = practical implementation into things like - I dont know, maybe Ribbon SBCs = (hint hint) - and cloud services like amazon and google, to gain an underst= anding of what works.

Thx,
Jonathan R.

On Sat, Feb 15, 2020 at 3:28 PM Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:

Definitely interesting/useful concept in general if = the end result indeed can deliver benefits on the following aspects: HA, lo= ad-balancing, auto-scaling, cloud-friendliness. Having said that, just =E2= =80=9Cgoing HTTP=E2=80=9D hardly would provide satisfactory results IMHO. The issues with Cloud/real tiem session (mis)match are usual= ly due to the fact that the infrastructure is tailored for certain type of = applications, i.e. for the lack of a better term =E2=80=9Cweb applications= =E2=80=9D. Failover, service discovery, load balancing, message retransmission/back-off/circuit breaking, what is understood as HA= etc=E2=80=A6 are all areas where a real time session application is curren= tly a misfit. Yes, there are workarounds/various strategies but mostly pain= ful/indirect/not complete.

=C2=A0

I am optimistic that things can be made better but i= t really would help if we make sure that each strategic decision first goes= through a detailed analysis in terms of its implementation/deployment impl= ications/benefits -or lack of it-. This aspect is usually not considered as an integral part of protocol stan= dardization but IMHO for this WG it should, as =E2=80=9Cmaking life easier= =E2=80=9D is one of the core goals. Furthermore, I would argue that followi= ng a modular approach -as much as possible- could be useful so that certain pieces can be plugged into the SIP/SDP world as = well, e.g. HTTP encapsulated RTP if that happens to be the choice.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Tolga

=C2=A0

From: V3 <v3-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jo= nathan Rosenberg
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 5:00 PM
To: v3@ietf.org=
Cc: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) <fluffy@cisco.com>
Subject: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below

=C2=A0

NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sen= der

=C2=A0

Good news folks =E2=80=93 RIPT bof was approved for = IETF107 and we=E2=80=99ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. A= s such, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a = draft charter. Comments please:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

=C2=A0

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.

=C2=A0

It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.

=C2=A0

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

=C2=A0

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

=C2=A0

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

=C2=A0

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

=C2=A0

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

=C2=A0

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

=C2=A0

Milestones:

=C2=A0

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG=

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= u>

=C2=A0

Thx,

Jonathan R.

=C2=A0

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e-mail is hereby excluded. If you are= not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, destroy = the original transmission and its attachments and do not disclose the conte= nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright= in this e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated = entities.



Notice: This = e-mail together with any attachments may contain information of Ribbon Comm= unications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for the sole use of= the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or distribution = by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. = If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediatel= y and then delete all copies, including any attachments.
--
V3 mailing list
V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3


--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<= /a>
http://www.jdro= sen.net
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charset="UTF-8" Great question Steve. The goal is to do it based on working group consensus, as always. This would be educated based on - the concrete proposal in the current documents which defines exactly the scope that is being proposed right now. This avoids making this a theoretical discussion because we have a starting point. This question is also why I'm working on this draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-dispatch-ript-sipdiffs-00 which is yet incomplete but will present an analysis of the SIP extension landscape to get a feel for what the proposed scope actually covers. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:34 AM Steve Donovan wrote: > Jonathan, Cullen, > > For the following: > > "It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its > many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the > functionality in widespread actual usage today." > > How do you envision defining the "functionality that is in widespread > actual usage today?" > > Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing > SIP is in and what is out? > > Thanks, > > Steve > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > -- Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --000000000000c8cecf059edc0fd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great question Steve. The goal is to do it based on workin= g group consensus, as always.

This would be educated bas= ed on - the concrete proposal in the current documents which defines exactl= y the scope that is being proposed right now. This avoids making this a the= oretical discussion because we have a starting point.

<= div>This question is also why I'm working on this draft:



On= Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:34 AM Steve Donovan <srdonovan@usdonovans.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Jonathan, Cullen,

For the following:

"It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today."

How do you envision defining the "functiona= lity that is in widespread actual usage today?"

Do we need another working group deliverable to define what of existing SIP is in and what is out?

Thanks,

Steve

--
V3 mailing list
V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3


--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<= /a>
http://www.jdro= sen.net
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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:02:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Ross Finlayson In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:02:40 +1300 Cc: "v3@ietf.org" , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> References: To: Jonathan Rosenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:02:53 -0000 > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg = wrote: >=20 > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it = is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to = allow voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, = so http is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media be = transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? = Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls = that would use this protocol? And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web = server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out = of scope for this protocol? If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing=E2=80= =99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be used = in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using = reliable protocols via web server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, = then I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement = of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might = end up being too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams = and/or peer-to-peer). Ross Finlayson Live Networks, Inc. http://www.live555.com/ From nobody Tue Feb 18 14:47:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A776120811 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:47:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UGoHJFN0Pjf2 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61A1C120145 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id e18so24826026ljn.12 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:47:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HSYo/X0vcklSQ3QLdAd3BPwlQ8tkCLol/X1qysjRh5Q=; b=tcD4RX664i0HddX11XEQOQj8xLeaJ5M5iTnrY+x5cQpibKW1NWduZ0zKVHZSabIyAw Sy+0vqZv/BBMMaD1/zsI5NmiRJYEUfKOTtFy5gY1tyicopPflAfTlXoshzgbY8FUH82w gmzlJYdJRBx6XjugtE7P+3uVARYuo9Rxjm7J5Rcz7J1qD2/H48zXhJyNPXJH/dIHpmKb L7t9NzJbyj3b6005vCj2Kg1z/8UATkTZKXqEXYbxCj1AbdvbvDuF204zwRhMIEpoW799 l+HWFBj10IwZxr/Z0rFP1j0vPH3oJK6NW8vrKAuRE/jYEso/peR6S4VtM/Zmpckb3bfP koBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HSYo/X0vcklSQ3QLdAd3BPwlQ8tkCLol/X1qysjRh5Q=; b=tIME7oi0lua3mgkFCegrHDj05my4sIS26edhdfC3Bpn7VglakHXHoX4lj24XlFfmEk NmE4oN0ptNe0TI4pgld20pEjyGBLhECHnZcfl2u59mGnEse97B4UK6Cl+4KvqBOJmoDW HgfLeyFmv5SwunR/kUVaIuzLjL2gi6nmg4JRiSKcr2jjHrvKc7auCA7q1h+X2Ty0RQ/6 07S/FhNP4Wg4ZsENwe430hVpiXoGiO9neT5+wM9P/M9lZLG8SwEtPbxBEmxs+T7aaIzV klbzd3/OEkpUFt9fBf4EnAu3rLYsNjo+VOptr3djkFHSb0xx46ZYljaU1M2mWyEclYLK /JlA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX89sciMTaToBUVauim//7Qx96ETEZt3U5P5lU/UgZmGzFNZyWO dMhMLz5Y6NLxksZWEVcPqdirkj/FL1kQj6aqGx0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJXSaDaTuKbFVipblMv5ACNn4L4qr317Tocf/2r8xI7BUX8qQeWIH8NKjW3ZrAjjIylP9o63WzuNkfUmsU1sU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9d3:: with SMTP id 202mr14370475ljj.60.1582066059573; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 14:47:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:47:12 -0600 Message-ID: To: Ross Finlayson Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007dfea0059ee17526" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 22:47:44 -0000 --0000000000007dfea0059ee17526 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am also hoping for clarity here, or at least clue. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM Ross Finlayson wrote: > > > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg > wrote: > > > > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it > is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow > voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so htt= p > is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. > > So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media be > transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? > Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls > that would use this protocol? > > And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web > server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out = of > scope for this protocol? > > If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing=E2= =80=99 RTP, but rather > defining a new media transport protocol to be used in this one (restricte= d, > but important) environment: Transport using reliable protocols via web > server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, then I=E2=80=99m concerned th= at your SIP > replacement (i.e., replacement of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly brok= en, and > needs replacing) might end up being too restrictive for more general medi= a > transport (datagrams and/or peer-to-peer). > I think I arrived at the same place as Ross, coming from the opposite direction. ("Thunk!") ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a new media transport protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non-RIPT applications as well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC (or whatever we're all muttering about privately), if one of them is successful, might be useful for RIPT applications as well. So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on media transport of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT charter, is to split it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see go forward on its own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT signaling specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, need to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working group. I can say more about that at a mike in Vancouver, but let me start with this, on a mailing list ... Best, Spencer > Ross Finlayson > Live Networks, Inc. > http://www.live555.com/ > > --0000000000007dfea0059ee17526 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am also hoping for clarity here, or at = least clue.=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wrote:
<= /div>

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:
>
> Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it= is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow = voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so http = is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic.

So just to clarify here:=C2=A0 Is your goal (for this protocol) that media = be transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams?= =C2=A0 Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video ca= lls that would use this protocol?

And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web server= at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out of scope= for this protocol?

If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be use= d in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using reli= able protocols via web server(s).=C2=A0 And if that=E2=80=99s the case, the= n I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement of the= one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might end up b= eing too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams and/or pee= r-to-peer).

I think I arrived at the sa= me place as Ross, coming from the opposite direction. ("Thunk!")<= /div>

ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a= new media transport protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non= -RIPT applications as well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC= (or whatever we're all muttering about privately), if one of them is s= uccessful, might be useful for RIPT applications as well.=C2=A0
<= br>
So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on = media transport of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT chart= er, is to split it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see = go forward on its own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT sign= aling specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, = need to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working g= roup.=C2=A0

I can say more about that at a mike in= Vancouver, but let me start with this, on a mailing list ...
Best,=C2=A0

Spencer
=C2=A0
Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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-0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 19:55:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ross Finlayson Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009e2458059ee5c13a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 03:55:21 -0000 --0000000000009e2458059ee5c13a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Replying to Ross... On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:02 PM Ross Finlayson wrote: > > > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg > wrote: > > > > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it > is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow > voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so htt= p > is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. > > So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media be > transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? > Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls > that would use this protocol? > Critical. We believe that there are techniques within HTTP/3 that can address this situation, although (speaking for myself) we may find ourselves needing to go lower in the protocol stack. > > And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web > server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out = of > scope for this protocol? > P2P is in scope, but using existing WebRTC protocols. Since p2p scenarios require both endpoints to participate, there's a chicken-and-egg problem there, and we can look at that after we get things working in the c2s scenario. > > If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing=E2= =80=99 RTP, but rather > defining a new media transport protocol to be used in this one (restricte= d, > but important) environment: Transport using reliable protocols via web > server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, then I=E2=80=99m concerned th= at your SIP > replacement (i.e., replacement of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly brok= en, and > needs replacing) might end up being too restrictive for more general medi= a > transport (datagrams and/or peer-to-peer). > This is a reasonable concern, but we think that starting small and expanding scope later (especially when there is a sense of how that expansion might work) might allow for faster progress. > > > Ross Finlayson > Live Networks, Inc. > http://www.live555.com/ > > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --0000000000009e2458059ee5c13a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Replying to Ross...

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:02 PM R= oss Finlayson <finlayson@live55= 5.com> wrote:

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:
>
> Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it= is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow = voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so http = is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic.

So just to clarify here:=C2=A0 Is your goal (for this protocol) that media = be transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams?= =C2=A0 Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video ca= lls that would use this protocol?

Criti= cal. We believe that there are techniques within HTTP/3 that can address th= is situation, although (speaking for myself) we may find ourselves needing = to go lower in the protocol stack.=C2=A0

And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web server= at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out of scope= for this protocol?

P2P is in scope, bu= t using existing WebRTC protocols. Since p2p scenarios require both endpoin= ts to participate, there's a chicken-and-egg problem there, and we can = look at that after we get things working in the c2s scenario.=C2=A0

If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be use= d in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using reli= able protocols via web server(s).=C2=A0 And if that=E2=80=99s the case, the= n I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement of the= one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might end up b= eing too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams and/or pee= r-to-peer).

This is a reasonable concer= n, but we think that starting small and expanding scope later (especially w= hen there is a sense of how that expansion might work) might allow for fast= er progress.


Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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--0000000000009e2458059ee5c13a-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 20:01:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D6812089B for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QvSMsfLnPW1X for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE59312089E for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2c.google.com with SMTP id o187so6228353vka.2 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qXcIj/Aw/KKwXRv7I3asEjQAGo/pWxjXMRsOgI5lkms=; b=bzBfNK8JhHV80i7sD+81HDmFLatLne31J/2uuuhBQtN7Z1jTu95bfDaBlRf0KrH3ts FvLf8eAw4uOFNyVcDOr5eRfUd5XTRBwkxmOmM17rvxnFtCnUf2GzclBaDbEBKm1qi74u opefeT/uWA1+R0rdgb2sxsqTrp3LUKaeoUF/KqrhzEstaRxmjVAC0Kf2f8D4VvY31KZN dkIc9UH+IFW+7ENvtu47abURVpsJXQBmRgsdzj5yf/zJfJmMCVmZuU6ZYimKpAz/qRLC EabD0A0/irIGvajiK/pZnmUhdUIy8lKnXhz6uOZBEzheyLrrau8uQ3X9Joz8z8T3EUIB S9zw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qXcIj/Aw/KKwXRv7I3asEjQAGo/pWxjXMRsOgI5lkms=; b=QxwwAnS55BM7V2pnRzKOIXzXkZ9f4ihJQbtqV4VPJA2uZpdsrapAIvVjBSYmxm5uIT g9dA/JRZdO/jeW6FVmEQl7X69w7Pe3XpMcuFFsI5EfP9npBcZxjdaeZnhQrqq9xwcl3y 1031w10/j7/84ju8zzkp9YakM+dOewdH+WmNKu0VbNKTazGMzEz5MN7eqgY1aPlU88GE 2ZBZxhtOagIAV+Q5GKcYsWNfxh4vln2JxOcFk5xiKlDUb11epJSL/8XEPmnb6rs5fdx5 ipdbFjYK+xNKuBY3GubnxSXhdaRshzybcHP2eLfvqBxYplpKCNKYzkc0jOVhpUjelPu/ 058A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW5TUNgYvCtKsMZol/KS437D5C4u2npuipLihYkM0P2MhQc3sIx hPjdzw9ifzCqR1IjXickTbaYzXnNC+S22I6nJ5tj4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwQYU5CD7GDmgkl0jOlCV1Gw+opkKU5Oc9behCvhDlHbPzFLxV9GoGRTkEOPz919bDG2yt4to1koRA69FPQf3U= X-Received: by 2002:ac5:c1c7:: with SMTP id g7mr10291416vkk.97.1582084878433; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:01:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Ross Finlayson , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002fbcd8059ee5d74e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:01:23 -0000 --0000000000002fbcd8059ee5d74e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:47 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > I am also hoping for clarity here, or at least clue. > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM Ross Finlayson > wrote: > >> >> > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg >> wrote: >> > >> > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it >> is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allo= w >> voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so ht= tp >> is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. >> >> So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media be >> transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? >> Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls >> that would use this protocol? >> >> And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web >> server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out= of >> scope for this protocol? >> >> If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing=E2= =80=99 RTP, but rather >> defining a new media transport protocol to be used in this one (restrict= ed, >> but important) environment: Transport using reliable protocols via web >> server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, then I=E2=80=99m concerned t= hat your SIP >> replacement (i.e., replacement of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly bro= ken, and >> needs replacing) might end up being too restrictive for more general med= ia >> transport (datagrams and/or peer-to-peer). >> > > I think I arrived at the same place as Ross, coming from the opposite > direction. ("Thunk!") > > ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a new media transport > protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non-RIPT applications = as > well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC (or whatever we're > all muttering about privately), if one of them is successful, might be > useful for RIPT applications as well. > > So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on media transport > of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT charter, is to spli= t > it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see go forward on its > own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT signaling > specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, need > to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working grou= p. > > I can say more about that at a mike in Vancouver, but let me start with > this, on a mailing list ... > Spencer - I agree that the signaling and media transport aspects are separable, but ultimately many applications will deploy them together, and perhaps multiplex them over the same HTTP transport. As such, there's definitely value in having a WG that considers the overall problem space and the various interactions between the layers (I think there are actually 3 layers - signaling, session descriptions, and media transport). Certainly worth discussing further though. > Best, > > Spencer > > >> Ross Finlayson >> Live Networks, Inc. >> http://www.live555.com/ >> >> -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --0000000000002fbcd8059ee5d74e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:47 PM Spenc= er Dawkins at IETF <spe= ncerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I am also hopin= g for clarity here, or at least clue.=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM = Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wrote:

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:
>
> Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it= is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow = voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so http = is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic.

So just to clarify here:=C2=A0 Is your goal (for this protocol) that media = be transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams?= =C2=A0 Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video ca= lls that would use this protocol?

And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web server= at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out of scope= for this protocol?

If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be use= d in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using reli= able protocols via web server(s).=C2=A0 And if that=E2=80=99s the case, the= n I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement of the= one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might end up b= eing too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams and/or pee= r-to-peer).

I think I arrived at the sa= me place as Ross, coming from the opposite direction. ("Thunk!")<= /div>

ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a= new media transport protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non= -RIPT applications as well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC= (or whatever we're all muttering about privately), if one of them is s= uccessful, might be useful for RIPT applications as well.=C2=A0
<= br>
So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on = media transport of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT chart= er, is to split it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see = go forward on its own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT sign= aling specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, = need to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working g= roup.=C2=A0

I can say more about that at a mike in= Vancouver, but let me start with this, on a mailing list ...

Spencer -=C2=A0

I agree that the signaling and media transport aspects are separable, bu= t ultimately many applications will deploy them together, and perhaps multi= plex them over the same HTTP transport. As such, there's definitely val= ue in having a WG that considers the overall problem space and the various = interactions between the layers (I think there are actually 3 layers - sign= aling, session descriptions, and media transport).=C2=A0

Certainly worth discussing further though.


Best,=C2=A0

Spen= cer
=C2=A0
Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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--0000000000002fbcd8059ee5d74e-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 04:22:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6F7120046 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ug2fqpHZ06KD for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37C4F12003F for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id c23so17283093lfi.7 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:22:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZdOJJbzXzm05r4IIpR1l5a4lIxmT+TnSRG617o/EFMA=; b=uYKBIqESMhjE1t4GLuOZAEfy5nUfUcjG/1srhvog+quMtjZqdoU1qqTBkrfmWCCdb/ a85vQVySDtQtM00TXenAQs8XwDO74K7LVP2kZNm3zh+4Vvx9FBQOoFrrW+QxnX4tqiwL Q1lihkd7evAPQySGN8KBPZr1+BJFs/wJ/4Ww8qHxUT17ASkLmfTGSVNSvAvlsbO+y+Lt aNTWF1E66WxSiEqOuJ5usRuXJJiSwVZArx+P15hhiP7pvGMq4jvfKq2Ljwk+x75iASd5 qT645/iJzrsoH3ODTC+36sB6uEm7ZKbsmwujgTFS68Y1FrnVugsh3Do/os8u0eu5bpej PzPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZdOJJbzXzm05r4IIpR1l5a4lIxmT+TnSRG617o/EFMA=; b=PL0Wa+Bsy1QqRK6aG0Le/cuFRGXPKZdsAWiC7A4NsLF9CdgK53rpX393PLi29dsskH KXVR4G792KTE226oSLWU91YeZzqAJGFtFsHhxUM0WGpB2wUoHaVrz+1xDmCPd+iosb1w IK9doOVbyQM8x3QZFpjFh6mCG8HOgO39uSqcWKVkOyeUGpgBnzR4srwiOmOhT6JH8a/j t/24lfjqLPfz2vcZcJIG7pkxPMCcjYT/JxNqgUPgfT7i1MH/hLMT2vHaSc/fLSF9kvMY KAWxe7k7zSJ4qcwR+JaPBZk+PjLpSUkF9jyEpTsVc8ZgNurpbUm5JIlkfXY23xSTd4C+ 9ipg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWByqg7HpoMMWlV5dtfH64zyDRIxD8qfKusOCax1GTfI6eBkKFi itcUczlsuqF3YIQBsIZYkJbg8k9vs/o275xki78= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwV6+QKeOyVSRX+w2Xqzn3sVa4B36ce+7hyxHLtmiPrK6lDAEwVuWjKfN1jsZhav58nmhlHqk/XkXx9rQyeD00= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5e29:: with SMTP id o9mr13525640lfg.81.1582114961381; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:22:14 -0600 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Ross Finlayson , Jonathan Rosenberg , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000445c21059eecd815" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 12:22:45 -0000 --000000000000445c21059eecd815 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Justin, On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 9:55 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > Replying to Ross... > I'm not Ross, but I found this reply helpful. > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:02 PM Ross Finlayson > wrote: > >> >> > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg >> wrote: >> > >> > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it >> is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allo= w >> voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so ht= tp >> is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. >> >> So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media be >> transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? >> Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls >> that would use this protocol? >> > > Critical. We believe that there are techniques within HTTP/3 that can > address this situation, although (speaking for myself) we may find > ourselves needing to go lower in the protocol stack. > Yeah, that was certainly the goal (no one was ignoring latency in the QUIC working group, either). IIUC, this approach would be tied to HTTP infrastructure that hasn't had end-to-end latency for realtime communication as a goal in the past, but we'll see where this goes. > And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web >> server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out= of >> scope for this protocol? >> > > P2P is in scope, but using existing WebRTC protocols. Since p2p scenarios > require both endpoints to participate, there's a chicken-and-egg problem > there, and we can look at that after we get things working in the c2s > scenario. > >> >> If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing=E2= =80=99 RTP, but rather >> defining a new media transport protocol to be used in this one (restrict= ed, >> but important) environment: Transport using reliable protocols via web >> server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, then I=E2=80=99m concerned t= hat your SIP >> replacement (i.e., replacement of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly bro= ken, and >> needs replacing) might end up being too restrictive for more general med= ia >> transport (datagrams and/or peer-to-peer). >> > > This is a reasonable concern, but we think that starting small and > expanding scope later (especially when there is a sense of how that > expansion might work) might allow for faster progress. > That's fair. Collecting actual experience and data is rarely wrong. Best. Spencer > >> >> Ross Finlayson >> Live Networks, Inc. >> http://www.live555.com/ >> >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > --000000000000445c21059eecd815 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Justin,=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at = 9:55 PM Justin Uberti <juberti@goo= gle.com> wrote:
Replying to Ross...

I'm not Ross, but I found this reply helpful.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 12:02 PM Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wrote:=

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:
>
> Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it= is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow = voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so http = is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic.

So just to clarify here:=C2=A0 Is your goal (for this protocol) that media = be transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams?= =C2=A0 Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video ca= lls that would use this protocol?

Criti= cal. We believe that there are techniques within HTTP/3 that can address th= is situation, although (speaking for myself) we may find ourselves needing = to go lower in the protocol stack.=C2=A0

Yeah, that was certainly the goal (no one was ignoring late= ncy in the QUIC working group, either). IIUC, this approach would be tied t= o HTTP infrastructure that hasn't had end-to-end latency for realtime c= ommunication as a goal in the past, but we'll see where this goes.=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not = involve a web server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/dis= covery) out of scope for this protocol?

P2P is in scope, but using existing WebRTC protocols. Since p2p scenarios = require both endpoints to participate, there's a chicken-and-egg proble= m there, and we can look at that after we get things working in the c2s sce= nario.=C2=A0

If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be use= d in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using reli= able protocols via web server(s).=C2=A0 And if that=E2=80=99s the case, the= n I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement of the= one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might end up b= eing too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams and/or pee= r-to-peer).

This is a reasonable concer= n, but we think that starting small and expanding scope later (especially w= hen there is a sense of how that expansion might work) might allow for fast= er progress.

That's f= air. Collecting actual experience and data is rarely wrong.

<= /div>
Best.

Spencer
=C2=A0


Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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--000000000000445c21059eecd815-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 04:41:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23E612003F for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:41:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U0L0FFjkP3sx for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E82D120019 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id z5so2264944lfd.12 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:41:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Po0YWjEjaoMa6fqsLcanq0Isr28A/8myjcDbR/9ek74=; b=ScIY1HIJuAUJ1rNcr/RUm//fzSBTIbVpqHt4LUhFc0gAh/gyTvfPbXY9BmTNSxnjRd EOaVbkXooA2tvSJzVfgYlLuMdGBCKvq2vIvT6+t+SKLEvfwMXn3tRS3/j7bq9ffcam9k mcB4H1+hZkrOY23LgGA5PLQN4YV2JsM72GUBQBqXizzfro3MggXLM7Ntqny2HJhw9C9r Vp2sQPYH+nwyHfsaKfN+kiNphW9D2kmep0RwAGaEsZbB4z9gVKUY5M6DKT2GiFsKBLwH uZ4RSupPvKOVnIieaoD6CI/c9bEDQE7RV2h+4X3caTfU1frVq2i202xPeDGx93lCCVF9 mEYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Po0YWjEjaoMa6fqsLcanq0Isr28A/8myjcDbR/9ek74=; b=JGDHcER8iuP2oVB0pWmp+47nIhrVOS7ZCkxm1LCBdONSBfL8BX8cjL0oDSqH/PsOuO 2hewveiGfoYkLZLZ8lU1GeYXDTngDl8K2W6KnuAjrxMCGgMKVxiiGOfcRWuYmtDqDrfS SIfAmMXBL/RojxVCOGww2OdRMReTuztHZ6yxQ9mIxCndBza28Zv2kPGnw+TfB9Eafeev +Gqbwwq+YemD3GOsv5Zeo6xCzT8BdGqQ9gnZkGEigC2NrDKGdEmas9b+u9Re5/+QRodj CN+ZV2w1AMJHEpELnANv2pK7hWwZb61bfbITdqsmQxQ0A2G6pJMSWZB7pmhZmw8Goflu mthw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUMbKTGKpzapVe61ooI9zBoqCt6pgYjQqzO/sVBevSN2hlswFnK TpCaaNeuNsla39g3KbjU6GG3hLmLYf3Z00mevNc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw8nXphVp0Hf//4QkGhsegEW6WKvmpq1wTNANxat4+oTj63N0DxSLXqM0QW203V0s73b/uiiclgz5rU+H06U7M= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c82:: with SMTP id 124mr13197549lfm.152.1582116072725; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 04:41:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:40:45 -0600 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Ross Finlayson , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008220d3059eed1a68" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 12:41:18 -0000 --0000000000008220d3059eed1a68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Justin, On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:01 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:47 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < > spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I am also hoping for clarity here, or at least clue. >> >> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM Ross Finlayson >> wrote: >> >>> >>> > On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - i= t >>> is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to all= ow >>> voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so h= ttp >>> is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic. >>> >>> So just to clarify here: Is your goal (for this protocol) that media b= e >>> transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams? >>> Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video calls >>> that would use this protocol? >>> >>> And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web >>> server at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) ou= t of >>> scope for this protocol? >>> >>> If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather >>> defining a new media transport protocol to be used in this one (restric= ted, >>> but important) environment: Transport using reliable protocols via web >>> server(s). And if that=E2=80=99s the case, then I=E2=80=99m concerned = that your SIP >>> replacement (i.e., replacement of the one thing that=E2=80=99s truly br= oken, and >>> needs replacing) might end up being too restrictive for more general me= dia >>> transport (datagrams and/or peer-to-peer). >>> >> >> I think I arrived at the same place as Ross, coming from the opposite >> direction. ("Thunk!") >> >> ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a new media transport >> protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non-RIPT applications= as >> well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC (or whatever we're >> all muttering about privately), if one of them is successful, might be >> useful for RIPT applications as well. >> >> So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on media transport >> of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT charter, is to spl= it >> it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see go forward on its >> own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT signaling >> specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, nee= d >> to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working gro= up. >> >> I can say more about that at a mike in Vancouver, but let me start with >> this, on a mailing list ... >> > > Spencer - > This time, I AM Spencer :-) > I agree that the signaling and media transport aspects are separable, but > ultimately many applications will deploy them together, and perhaps > multiplex them over the same HTTP transport. As such, there's definitely > value in having a WG that considers the overall problem space and the > various interactions between the layers (I think there are actually 3 > layers - signaling, session descriptions, and media transport). > "Consider" is the key word, and I think that's an invitation to good systems engineering. No objection to that. My suggestion is that the BOF proponents be really clear about what they expect to happen after the considering, and especially asking whether work on media relies on the same expertise as signaling, and (speaking as past AD for QUIC) whether you really need everyone in the same room at the same time, with no opportunity for parallel processing of separable topics. At a minimum, I'd suggest adding AVTCORE, MMUSIC, and ICE to the list of working groups to coordinate with. But do the right thing, of course :-) Best, Spencer > Certainly worth discussing further though. > > >> Best, >> >> Spencer >> >> >>> Ross Finlayson >>> Live Networks, Inc. >>> http://www.live555.com/ >>> >>> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > --0000000000008220d3059eed1a68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Justin,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:01 = PM Justin Uberti <juberti@google.c= om> wrote:


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 2:47 PM Spe= ncer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
I am also hoping for clarity here, or at least clue.=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb = 18, 2020 at 2:02 PM Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wrote:

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@five9.com> wrote:
>
> Also to be clear - whilst I agree that RTP on QUIC is interesting - it= is not in scope because httpbis is our target, not quic. We want to allow = voice signaling and media to run over web infrastructure services, so http = is our 'waist of the hourglass' not quic.

So just to clarify here:=C2=A0 Is your goal (for this protocol) that media = be transferred only over streams (TCP or (reliable) QUIC), not datagrams?= =C2=A0 Consequently, how important is end-to-end latency for audio/video ca= lls that would use this protocol?

And are peer-to-peer audio/video calls (that would not involve a web server= at all, except perhaps for initial end-user lookup/discovery) out of scope= for this protocol?

If that's the case, then you=E2=80=99re not really =E2=80=98replacing= =E2=80=99 RTP, but rather defining a new media transport protocol to be use= d in this one (restricted, but important) environment: Transport using reli= able protocols via web server(s).=C2=A0 And if that=E2=80=99s the case, the= n I=E2=80=99m concerned that your SIP replacement (i.e., replacement of the= one thing that=E2=80=99s truly broken, and needs replacing) might end up b= eing too restrictive for more general media transport (datagrams and/or pee= r-to-peer).

I think I arrived at the sa= me place as Ross, coming from the opposite direction. ("Thunk!")<= /div>

ISTM that the proposal floating through here for a= new media transport protocol, if it is successful, would be useful for non= -RIPT applications as well, and ISTM that other proposals for RTP over QUIC= (or whatever we're all muttering about privately), if one of them is s= uccessful, might be useful for RIPT applications as well.=C2=A0
<= br>
So, the first suggestion I'd make at the BOF, if work on = media transport of whatever flavor is still part of the proposed RIPT chart= er, is to split it off into a separate proposal, which I'd love to see = go forward on its own, unless there are really strong reasons why RIPT sign= aling specification work and RIPT media transport work need to be coupled, = need to fate-share, and need to compete for attention in the same working g= roup.=C2=A0

I can say more about that at a mike in= Vancouver, but let me start with this, on a mailing list ...

Spencer -=C2=A0

This time, I AM Spencer :-)=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
I agree that the signaling and media trans= port aspects are separable, but ultimately many applications will deploy th= em together, and perhaps multiplex them over the same HTTP transport. As su= ch, there's definitely value in having a WG that considers the overall = problem space and the various interactions between the layers (I think ther= e are actually 3 layers - signaling, session descriptions, and media transp= ort).=C2=A0

"Con= sider" is the key word, and I think that's an invitation to good s= ystems engineering. No objection to that.=C2=A0

My= suggestion is that the BOF proponents be really clear about what they expe= ct to happen after the considering, and especially asking whether work on m= edia relies on the same expertise as signaling, and (speaking as past AD fo= r QUIC) whether you really need everyone in the same room at the same time,= with no opportunity for parallel processing of separable topics.

At a minimum, I'd suggest adding AVTCORE, MMUSIC, and I= CE to the list of working groups to coordinate with.=C2=A0

But do the right thing, of course :-)

Bes= t,

Spencer
=C2=A0
Certainly worth discussing further though.
=

Best,=C2=A0

=
Spencer
=C2=A0
Ross Finlayson
Live Networks, Inc.
ht= tp://www.live555.com/

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aWdodCBpbiB0aGlzIGUtbWFpbCBhbmQgYW55IGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzIGJlbG9uZ3MgdG8gRml2ZTkg YW5kL29yIGl0cyBhZmZpbGlhdGVkIGVudGl0aWVzLjxicj4NCjwvZm9udD4NCjxkaXY+PC9kaXY+ DQo8ZGl2PjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_BYAPR06MB43911753D17BCADE1B0DF40DFB100BYAPR06MB4391namp_-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 06:52:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A891200B5 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zVsCKANAIfhj for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from us.live555.com (us.live555.com [52.8.240.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69654120120 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.live555.com [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by us.live555.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 01JEqD4V055512; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:52:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Ross Finlayson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 03:52:13 +1300 Cc: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Justin Uberti , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> To: Jonathan Rosenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:52:30 -0000 > On Feb 20, 2020, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg = wrote: >=20 > Firstly, we assume that all of the servers sit behind HTTP load = balancers, and are not reachable directly. This is standard practice. = That means that clients have to send media through HTTP. Secondly, we = assume that sticky routing happens in these load balancers the = =E2=80=98normal=E2=80=99 way =E2=80=93 through a combo of hashing of = 5-tuples and usage of session cookies. That means that, in order to get = the media to the server handling the signaling (which is what we want), = the media needs to come in the same connection, and use cookies. This = further ties it to HTTP. In order to deal with failures of those servers = and enable mid-call recovery without loss of media packets, we also need = the transport to contain call identifiers. This way, media can just = =E2=80=98be sent=E2=80=99 to a new server in the pool behind the load = balancer, and it can pick up where things left off in the previous = server without losing any media packets (like - not one). In RIPT this = happens because all media are PUT/GET from the call URI. OK, thanks - this explanation makes it very clear that what you=E2=80=99re= planning is a protocol for audio/video calls *over HTTP* - and over = HTTP only. A lot of the confusion (largely on my part, I admit) about = what you=E2=80=99re proposing would have been avoided if this had been = clearer in the name of the protocol (and BOF) - i.e., if there had been = an =E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D in there (I would have preferred something like = MoH: =E2=80=9CMedia over HTTP=E2=80=9D :-) And grandiose statements about this protocol "replacing SIP, RTP and = SDP=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t help either - unless you really see the = =E2=80=9CHTTP Internet=E2=80=9D (hourglass) becoming the entire = Internet. (Not all of us are ready to concede that, just yet ;-) Ross Finlayson Live Networks, Inc. http://www.live555.com/ From nobody Wed Feb 19 07:17:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273DA1200B5 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UCZUJP0QpSJQ for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from us.live555.com (us.live555.com [52.8.240.222]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A514120026 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.live555.com [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by us.live555.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 01JFHZlr006612; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from finlayson@live555.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Ross Finlayson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 04:17:35 +1300 Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Justin Uberti Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4D3CA306-87F0-4B23-A6DC-C76751982A8D@live555.com> References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> To: Ross Finlayson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:17:55 -0000 > On Feb 20, 2020, at 3:52 AM, Ross Finlayson = wrote: >=20 > OK, thanks - this explanation makes it very clear that what you=E2=80=99= re planning is a protocol for audio/video calls *over HTTP* - and over = HTTP only. A lot of the confusion (largely on my part, I admit) about = what you=E2=80=99re proposing would have been avoided if this had been = clearer in the name of the protocol (and BOF) - i.e., if there had been = an =E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D in there (I would have preferred something like = MoH: =E2=80=9CMedia over HTTP=E2=80=9D :-) On reflection, something like =E2=80=9CRMoH=E2=80=9D (=E2=80=9CReal-time = Media over HTTP=E2=80=9D) would be even better, to distinguish this from = other HTTP-based media delivery systems like HLS (=E2=80=9CHTTP Live = Streaming=E2=80=9D), that don=E2=80=99t have the same low-latency = requirements. Ross Finlayson Live Networks, Inc. http://www.live555.com/ From nobody Wed Feb 19 07:30:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA8512010F for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:30:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bo7KD7e9T5Wo for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (unknown [92.243.22.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 096EB120026 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:8465:e447:4503:f920] (unknown [IPv6:2601:648:8400:8e7d:8465:e447:4503:f920]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F770AE00A; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:29:55 +0100 (CET) To: Ross Finlayson , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Justin Uberti References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> From: Marc Petit-Huguenin Autocrypt: addr=petithug@acm.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBE6Mh9wBEADrUEDZChteJbQtsHwZITZExr7TAqT7pniNwhBX3nFgd+FrV3lsLKJ1rym2 52MAYpubXEJZGzMp6uCCAnROWbtmQbOm8z/jHnjxHhPqfuYCYPpAQqu8K/Sc194Rp37krMwB jz32yr7+gvWLzRgQGKIh9d2mzy8QLMETVWWQWGb6fEfpOxXo0wumN1rc/275kZwOu44JIPGg zbgwZdnEqYOUUa18K9MXeRDoWbwDISP30CvKuZDwD14lbBE3o7tBQrU9uoMhE7eFlTjbsCox qoubI2tZSuOTF8mRXjPmNrRGtf9mYkQnOB7y6qy/QxmOVMq4IRtHzOYIm/EZ6NTodcpZQHOM 2v6B6YK9uKrYrapSpJzn4f9oU7alT31Y3o2hOlxAWDQ16+Dd1MOPYsKQXOwY1/ihm4PTjiJ8 ud8yPzy7c+BSVs5wkBU6QuLNIgZHrrxdn+KxM+F/oAVtfzO7XzVoeOcXyWi3/CHL5pgoBruY enIF/RrRuplpy09pvZjmFPNfqKBYJGnqpQuqsQwO7LsFqDqfY2EuHg+KsGN1XuN+jxXc48/1 gCnKw7ALSPWEb7g25wD6KfiZTAcyRTG8LePNFQKhw61LbIWmkw9EaVLyXvwPTc1iCSc0dDT/ pcT/z+8xrWOyWGZNZAjR584NlDpKollbItcxYtFcYZkvTCmOVwARAQABtCZNYXJjIFBldGl0 LUh1Z3VlbmluIDxwZXRpdGh1Z0BhY20ub3JnPokCOAQTAQgAIgIbIwYLCQgHAwIGFQgCCQoL BBYCAwECHgECF4AFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsRWqBAAu/61DGo+j38UefTKnEse0mftPBXa S4lre7vknn33MI0L5QXmiM8zRs9FOKSuXPx0EV+JhI4pWZGW/2MJPuyifXHvnIChcdGInN8J GBdTLZSOgdDFZL9msO+QUsvMA8ZUsqlKOEcVL1NyoLupblCWNq4fYhBCx1zDwX9LZSuGn8lZ Mk8a4QFGoR6dWKaOxeCwnoquW5IK1CfRIhYjHfQMjA5gY0H46F0iCqBaFF/S7krQwIJd0XN4 YbSL4KOrWuxtgQ+iH/iaxxBXgJ1blBNRzXaWJBF4PHv23nSnEzWO17j+uVMaHJu7ycYEf8T9 pVc0xcok1BM2rCrNE5FUFAzsUtAtBZEEK6sSIeOhRG93uD/Hv1hrWzEwf+Z7B1tVQLCQQ4kL 7wyS7SXI/JTuW2xTEGCmwMeWYGERdkgsatmx4zi5nVHDjt3/mlPMj4L+u05SkI2iV4W6xxU1 jHlBIJDs7AVM0dsxzTyIPf2Sz843WyHuBgkoCskxGfOwlkZzDX9rwcWRKal1wjy1w/25LsBY U50INandw3UbrS2I73VX8ARI8uOWZrW7uzRLf8EmuPhtSQ35ThmdoNSgGMP9EXwNgzi/i+5G hbX5KbrSLG9SITFJEcJA4tnwu3nqmBh7D7vbd5ln5X7rmqPdyjidt0zcSjvuaBA+nkmakA4A O+choWy5Ag0EToyH3AEQAL+LguHhcSDCL/IevdcvH/5/fzO2fmuuTxdGwrZZSm7l6/HD2Ira h6Wpa1LvVeRbnsRq8k6O8/i3wVapEoQPmNY3vjWfXaJb8R4vHcqgcxw9N9jhZa+mvGJk9+cI ilDyPzHRBBID4d/3oFKQCQ4Y2SIkO66znPhfBOS2f2AU7AtXHhVEyj6WsLK6boEMcj7j+w5a es2nZam0jhgoz+4DQem4uk8outrRlboGnZN7A2kCNuy39UeOp7BpvQ95IKcJCIeSoiJt2A4B NPQroqhW0zGn9Y9FJ9UiZ9YIeNPYbscUxxvrD+OU9Jv67hW0v3KfvoIKDwVKpO3MW6o+1teS Gt1KCSz+CvGJCvIxfCk7S5K5SBne7ZNKz7rkGXYIzlyr7ZoEgRHmqGmcK/sHTS4e6g2pQQrR USkspyqLZl5Uzmg7yI5oGBL0aHTzYdDkkOKMRXYnl7ivBeNtGcniGqlONLJxpbwec8j7hLRq pXFuepbtPqX/GefuK8rdo+ppEqpRJ50cJTegchTfWfSjn5/mG1B4Oz9OnOcBEeTLO729n0K9 BeTx1pmisD6P/fyrqZZTozDwVEi7Wo9AOaqWOhuTe8L0FlFIk6fc/yM0wzvDWP7sNrevEYHK V9rd+Yc/Jjt293J4uayrt6DNMmSkAw3nlBq3uK5d54J0FAsAUcsE/W2/ABEBAAGJAh8EGAEI AAkCGwwFAlfy11wACgkQKcRFldZqfsSQyA/+Kx3eWtKyb/y35TjgtjT/Hrtw+aIpr1uK97LA ln1j5m7+lQ/jh0/rvSZjs+YQMYLqVGI8oaaF/u+qrokkU6pfrhVZ49D1BmmSTMBSYgnBDYqZ yZ+uzQnnDYt/mpo2OLbl9BhuifR5QXLp43cE1FIhyDT46wfse5tNZ+ll4m4HtXuTw4W3b4cP Hto10260Mki7hXbkDMZ+icBFDMkrrZyYHSnBhelzIM7XnY7A/XZdulfFcDXEcZhAFEv3ylJs xTnGwzDyP1VAdBFL3hpP1CqfP1Kti4hKcxXZYbIgTSsBjcYbPchw3ktUTU29I/nWKH5gmD+q wFizyhtt8Qhl6U67OdZ/XbRGBXs/7tlYJIGiGZyG7IQtDOX0PsVd+6WRcDdFqkpBwYkxU8gd iCeW+YTQ5d8mXXPT2dhFAeK2hCFa2+IdaXvH8ovjZpTMeKstHrWJUDaSqQ4GFT676DbDyqtm P6Ul9cjGVtXIs64FWqR9wrbwBH1GuIHhDmG9sN5AkyB9mxXaEG3uG4E6qQeedtIKC6p+ebAs aTGgztFWMJDC8LUznu7B0oyWxNVoE/RGt5mesOeAtqYr6Jtdh7unyk8BYP1y4e+SSMwvtwh+ 69tJwNhGYbOJrdX34tXNAKb6r/rFRjVJm+sPPs5ok7LddvV35o+Fho0LRNDsioDV3HytlhA= Message-ID: <5b625669-023d-3b95-67ea-32e958eb7834@acm.org> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:29:42 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="WyTbsiwO3O2KsrcuDxXOY93dzpcX77vSQ" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:30:01 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --WyTbsiwO3O2KsrcuDxXOY93dzpcX77vSQ Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wYsIj2BWEhM40jD58dQS3ZloZZYVpJVTd"; protected-headers="v1" From: Marc Petit-Huguenin To: Ross Finlayson , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Justin Uberti Message-ID: <5b625669-023d-3b95-67ea-32e958eb7834@acm.org> Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below References: <3254DED7-C105-4674-82E4-0D6968CB8744@live555.com> In-Reply-To: --wYsIj2BWEhM40jD58dQS3ZloZZYVpJVTd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2/19/20 6:52 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Feb 20, 2020, at 3:01 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg wr= ote: >> >> Firstly, we assume that all of the servers sit behind HTTP load balanc= ers, and are not reachable directly. This is standard practice. That mean= s that clients have to send media through HTTP. Secondly, we assume that = sticky routing happens in these load balancers the =E2=80=98normal=E2=80=99= way =E2=80=93 through a combo of hashing of 5-tuples and usage of sessio= n cookies. That means that, in order to get the media to the server handl= ing the signaling (which is what we want), the media needs to come in the= same connection, and use cookies. This further ties it to HTTP. In order= to deal with failures of those servers and enable mid-call recovery with= out loss of media packets, we also need the transport to contain call ide= ntifiers. This way, media can just =E2=80=98be sent=E2=80=99 to a new ser= ver in the pool behind the load balancer, and it can pick up where things= left off in the previous server without losing any media packets (like -= not one). In RIPT this happens because all media are PUT/GET from the ca= ll URI. >=20 > OK, thanks - this explanation makes it very clear that what you=E2=80=99= re planning is a protocol for audio/video calls *over HTTP* - and over HT= TP only. A lot of the confusion (largely on my part, I admit) about what= you=E2=80=99re proposing would have been avoided if this had been cleare= r in the name of the protocol (and BOF) - i.e., if there had been an =E2=80= =9CH=E2=80=9D in there (I would have preferred something like MoH: =E2=80= =9CMedia over HTTP=E2=80=9D :-) I think v3 is about both media and signaling not just media. But anyway I think it should be the other way around -- HTTP is less and = less about Hypertext, so that's the thing that should be renamed. Web Tr= ansport Protocol? WTP? >=20 > And grandiose statements about this protocol "replacing SIP, RTP and SD= P=E2=80=9D don=E2=80=99t help either - unless you really see the =E2=80=9C= HTTP Internet=E2=80=9D (hourglass) becoming the entire Internet. (Not al= l of us are ready to concede that, just yet ;-) >=20 --=20 Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: https://marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug --wYsIj2BWEhM40jD58dQS3ZloZZYVpJVTd-- --WyTbsiwO3O2KsrcuDxXOY93dzpcX77vSQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEBSI+IuCHU8MsI1GjKcRFldZqfsQFAl5NVGYACgkQKcRFldZq fsR8khAA46dQ0OhB0Wvfe0UIoVgVPFJqQ1QJr/EuhVkRuWcesZofj+jgffZ8kACr KoFkyxHMTJraXaPt1nolrLmqw+7aU7s1P6j13wRON5dxur/G9wlIMv1bCOh1suQs V6atYSve7msfVZPzKiMWgI09Jo1VwJzthFPkeWjkNy68inF30exgy2cbWRc9kYpR btc16iTNLqKVlpClpp0dy4FPCLU6LMb82bAgGtuvDoO+/1xvVfsUeJo33xE5/WIo yQZ1If7oYjtZgovdQOXyDs8u9ArGGz4QjlQdRiUIR7PJSZfd6ykA4SmqZkIaRBPP CwRKAyWyOA9Uqaz627HeOMAVYuA5cWhCeqSfcHNd1oyeODKMQ/ZyEb2WUD7G5H7e 4tmNyPvZh2PXU1niXVjkVhbjI5HPCGqRijny/ME3BvHTJaEZ4cn+Q5XY1JNB7rXa 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fEUijO0vLbcv for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-out2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (mail-out2.in.tum.de [131.159.0.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EE0B12013A for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix, from userid 107) id 46F4B1C07EC; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 17:03:39 +0100 (CET) Received: (Authenticated sender: ott) by mail.in.tum.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C5B381C07E5; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 17:03:36 +0100 (CET) (Extended-Queue-bit tech_xjezq@fff.in.tum.de) To: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Ross Finlayson Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Colin Perkins References: From: Joerg Ott Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 17:03:36 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:03:44 -0000 Let me just point out here that there is still a dangling question if one could leverage more state from QUIC than just offering a datagram service. Colin and I went through some thought exercise to this end, but we don't have an integrated implementation within QUIC for some RTP features yet. Still, our little analysis may turn out to be useful: http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2018-12-epiq-quic-rtp.pdf Jörg On 19.02.20 16:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote: >> >> If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this is a ’no brainer’, IMHO. First, define a way to carry RTP/RTCP packets directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the existing RTP payload format defined for each media type could map directly (i.e., with no more media-specific IETF standardization work required). Even if this means that there's some duplication of functionality between RTP and QUIC (datagrams). (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) streams.) >> >> While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this should not be something that we require before we define/standardize a replacement for SIP. Otherwise it’ll be years before we’re done. (RTP is starting to show its age, but it’s not broken, and has lots of existing deployment that could, ideally, be leveraged quickly within a SIP replacement. > > Almost no modern RTP implementation actually does the full RTP spec so at the very least we need some serious subsetting of what part of RTP would be mapped to QUIC. The RTP extension mechanism is badly broken particularly for low bandwidth satellite links. And if you look at what RTP clients do with the RTCP sent to them, well, I think there is some house cleaning needed here to be able to actually use RTP /RTCP. > From nobody Wed Feb 19 08:10:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6923120170 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=DAWZnnmp; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=D8/yfZuz Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XOfu0zapT5Ag for ; 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Wed, 19 Feb 2020 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 11:32:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Joerg Ott Cc: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Ross Finlayson , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Colin Perkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000017176d059ef2dbe5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 19:33:03 -0000 --00000000000017176d059ef2dbe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for this paper, I think this is a good exploration of the space, especially the table on page 4. Generally I think the substrate protocol gives us datagrams (or a suitable alternative), encryption, a global sequence number, and some parts of the necessary congestion control machinery, and the rest needs to be layered on top. On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 8:03 AM Joerg Ott wrote: > Let me just point out here that there is still a dangling question > if one could leverage more state from QUIC than just offering a > datagram service. > > Colin and I went through some thought exercise to this end, but we > don't have an integrated implementation within QUIC for some RTP > features yet. Still, our little analysis may turn out to be useful: > http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2018-12-epiq-quic-rtp.pdf > > J=C3=B6rg > > On 19.02.20 16:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Ross Finlayson > wrote: > >> > >> If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this is > a =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO. First, define a way to carry RTP/R= TCP packets > directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the existing RTP payload > format defined for each media type could map directly (i.e., with no more > media-specific IETF standardization work required). Even if this means > that there's some duplication of functionality between RTP and QUIC > (datagrams). (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) streams.) > >> > >> While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a > new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this shou= ld > not be something that we require before we define/standardize a replaceme= nt > for SIP. Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re done. (R= TP is starting to > show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, and has lots of existing deplo= yment that > could, ideally, be leveraged quickly within a SIP replacement. > > > > Almost no modern RTP implementation actually does the full RTP spec so > at the very least we need some serious subsetting of what part of RTP wou= ld > be mapped to QUIC. The RTP extension mechanism is badly broken particular= ly > for low bandwidth satellite links. And if you look at what RTP clients do > with the RTCP sent to them, well, I think there is some house cleaning > needed here to be able to actually use RTP /RTCP. > > > > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --00000000000017176d059ef2dbe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for this paper, I think this is a good exploration = of the space, especially the table on page 4.

Generally = I think the substrate protocol gives us datagrams (or a suitable alternativ= e), encryption, a global sequence number, and some parts of the necessary c= ongestion control machinery, and the rest needs to be layered on top.
=

= On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 8:03 AM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
Let me just point out here that there is still a dangling = question
if one could leverage more state from QUIC than just offering a
datagram service.

Colin and I went through some thought exercise to this end, but we
don't have an integrated implementation within QUIC for some RTP
features yet.=C2=A0 Still, our little analysis may turn out to be useful: http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/201= 8-12-epiq-quic-rtp.pdf

J=C3=B6rg

On 19.02.20 16:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wro= te:
>>
>> If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then thi= s is a =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO.=C2=A0 First, define a way to car= ry RTP/RTCP packets directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the exi= sting RTP payload format defined for each media type could map directly (i.= e., with no more media-specific IETF standardization work required).=C2=A0 = Even if this means that there's some duplication of functionality betwe= en RTP and QUIC (datagrams).=C2=A0 (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) stre= ams.)
>>
>> While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile definin= g a new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this sh= ould not be something that we require before we define/standardize a replac= ement for SIP.=C2=A0 Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re = done.=C2=A0 (RTP is starting to show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, = and has lots of existing deployment that could, ideally, be leveraged quick= ly within a SIP replacement.
>
> Almost no modern RTP implementation actually does the full RTP spec so= at the very least we need some serious subsetting of what part of RTP woul= d be mapped to QUIC. The RTP extension mechanism is badly broken particular= ly for low bandwidth satellite links. And if you look at what RTP clients d= o with the RTCP sent to them, well, I think there is some house cleaning ne= eded here to be able to actually use RTP /RTCP.
>

--
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V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3
--00000000000017176d059ef2dbe5-- From nobody Wed Feb 19 13:31:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2900120816 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ysSkmyPcv_f5 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70CE3120128 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:31:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id y6so1982967lji.0 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:31:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2ca3QhRU+a6Q1+/678ELA85YpqKWSVyTcYfcjfJhFs4=; b=HAUUlR1NDkVkwraJ/2oZhHmxY7CjI1Iw7McO6Es4PDp2aTq4XQ6oDlVfVpaIzAvJxV uytUsN2BQtBrtkk+bPwZx1yq+IqQItpr29TarlQ6rN83iIkLsXvcAQRYixnnG2e821hS jtbVUxu+S0Pu1nrb64T53sJvLAnjza1w8w/E6aPqpaDOWMOcmd074D0h56bOwXtt+ZvL z9Cf9WIb4E0M8633HoHXzMjrBfAdmrEHdi4uukuWOLgifPsHy/fVOc3FItXzHnqGVKZi 6DwEgqer2NYglvFp6IW12CfeAJ2vxjsqz34+HsgIiOuxe7MC6alPOBM3Eqt2p4te9rvE yHyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2ca3QhRU+a6Q1+/678ELA85YpqKWSVyTcYfcjfJhFs4=; b=e2bNRzo4a/7d1mUYYOT+zHAzRme+yDLRWP9MHlihCrDINOTtnAUkb73kWENeuMCXII 9imWodKyTrI80EyYkxcqz9vmm00EbxAm0K7Hj5trqvjh6xfUWPiH6GMvj07QRQS+Cl3L BBJjNs216uCnGI53zVNB3xi+ktTlBOXkKrwqfr0zXCf39WDYFcP9MISRbM0BRVteRJD5 q0b6YQXFL8QAq+x5LEjv7zMRZ31baHl2d9/qELICF8TRlBtxBtTLVp8l3UroqbPZUWPu StuZf7VR+sh+tHuphkKAGMgrnplXjnNONpFdcWsbnUbYrR7OwylZFLdxwpCQdzpVM7Yy 4USQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWtEzjPKz6tZO7gEPFw3NfZ+c0ya+BiDR7xKavUE2r6Uej3cUSk iE93hNSxLFZ0X0VB+1E62V7taRxiSAP/aMKfUkw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxcdmAG63HhAlZ89zhOdgsMm2WSKZFqLYOOxpD+tBZ9niWEOGv4NzmnDMnqzaVT2RcMFjBIJSop/KzRmVpqNAU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b5b4:: with SMTP id f20mr17477224ljn.112.1582147870685; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 13:31:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:30:43 -0600 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Cc: Joerg Ott , "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" , Ross Finlayson , Jonathan Rosenberg , Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" , Colin Perkins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d08034059ef4813f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 21:31:15 -0000 --000000000000d08034059ef4813f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joerg, On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:32 PM Justin Uberti wrote: > Thanks for this paper, I think this is a good exploration of the space, > especially the table on page 4. > I wanted to echo Justin's thanks for forwarding a link to your/Colin's paper. It's very helpful. Best, Spencer > Generally I think the substrate protocol gives us datagrams (or a suitabl= e > alternative), encryption, a global sequence number, and some parts of the > necessary congestion control machinery, and the rest needs to be layered = on > top. > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 8:03 AM Joerg Ott wrote: > >> Let me just point out here that there is still a dangling question >> if one could leverage more state from QUIC than just offering a >> datagram service. >> >> Colin and I went through some thought exercise to this end, but we >> don't have an integrated implementation within QUIC for some RTP >> features yet. Still, our little analysis may turn out to be useful: >> http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2018-12-epiq-quic-rtp.pdf >> >> J=C3=B6rg >> >> On 19.02.20 16:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote: >> > >> > >> >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Ross Finlayson >> wrote: >> >> >> >> If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then this i= s >> a =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO. First, define a way to carry RTP/= RTCP packets >> directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the existing RTP payload >> format defined for each media type could map directly (i.e., with no mor= e >> media-specific IETF standardization work required). Even if this means >> that there's some duplication of functionality between RTP and QUIC >> (datagrams). (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) streams.) >> >> >> >> While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile defining a >> new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this sho= uld >> not be something that we require before we define/standardize a replacem= ent >> for SIP. Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re done. (= RTP is starting to >> show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, and has lots of existing depl= oyment that >> could, ideally, be leveraged quickly within a SIP replacement. >> > >> > Almost no modern RTP implementation actually does the full RTP spec so >> at the very least we need some serious subsetting of what part of RTP wo= uld >> be mapped to QUIC. The RTP extension mechanism is badly broken particula= rly >> for low bandwidth satellite links. And if you look at what RTP clients d= o >> with the RTCP sent to them, well, I think there is some house cleaning >> needed here to be able to actually use RTP /RTCP. >> > >> >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> > --000000000000d08034059ef4813f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joerg,

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 1:32 PM Jus= tin Uberti <juberti@google.com= > wrote:
Thanks for this paper, I think this is a good exploration of t= he space, especially the table on page 4.

=
I wanted to echo Justin's thanks for forwarding a link to your/Col= in's paper. It's very helpful.

Best,
=

Spencer
=C2=A0
Generally I think the substr= ate protocol gives us datagrams (or a suitable alternative), encryption, a = global sequence number, and some parts of the necessary congestion control = machinery, and the rest needs to be layered on top.

On Wed, Feb 19= , 2020 at 8:03 AM Joerg Ott <ott@in.tum.de> wrote:
Let me just point out here that there is still a dangl= ing question
if one could leverage more state from QUIC than just offering a
datagram service.

Colin and I went through some thought exercise to this end, but we
don't have an integrated implementation within QUIC for some RTP
features yet.=C2=A0 Still, our little analysis may turn out to be useful: http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/201= 8-12-epiq-quic-rtp.pdf

J=C3=B6rg

On 19.02.20 16:57, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 14, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Ross Finlayson <finlayson@live555.com> wro= te:
>>
>> If we want to get something standardized/working quickly, then thi= s is a =E2=80=99no brainer=E2=80=99, IMHO.=C2=A0 First, define a way to car= ry RTP/RTCP packets directly in QUIC datagrams - in such a way that the exi= sting RTP payload format defined for each media type could map directly (i.= e., with no more media-specific IETF standardization work required).=C2=A0 = Even if this means that there's some duplication of functionality betwe= en RTP and QUIC (datagrams).=C2=A0 (Ditto for RTP over QUIC (reliable) stre= ams.)
>>
>> While - at some point in the future - it may be worthwhile definin= g a new version (v3?) of RTP that works more efficiently with QUIC, this sh= ould not be something that we require before we define/standardize a replac= ement for SIP.=C2=A0 Otherwise it=E2=80=99ll be years before we=E2=80=99re = done.=C2=A0 (RTP is starting to show its age, but it=E2=80=99s not broken, = and has lots of existing deployment that could, ideally, be leveraged quick= ly within a SIP replacement.
>
> Almost no modern RTP implementation actually does the full RTP spec so= at the very least we need some serious subsetting of what part of RTP woul= d be mapped to QUIC. The RTP extension mechanism is badly broken particular= ly for low bandwidth satellite links. And if you look at what RTP clients d= o with the RTCP sent to them, well, I think there is some house cleaning ne= eded here to be able to actually use RTP /RTCP.
>

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V3@ietf.org
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x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Feb 2020 00:37:26.8382 (UTC) x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-fromentityheader: Hosted x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-id: 29a671dc-ed7e-4a54-b1e5-8da1eb495dc3 x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED x-ms-exchange-crosstenant-userprincipalname: 5I6Z0DoUL5VcJW+xH7RYAVeWpaaPnbgsKH2u1NfdR3xeuW7OGR/TUKaoGz5GrZTVvV3dRuNfHVekQ42eKwOAxA== x-ms-exchange-transport-crosstenantheadersstamped: BN7PR03MB4436 x-mc-unique: Yz_UIMK4PfeXsw5k7IpMJQ-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: rbbn.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BN7PR03MB3827B4A0429BD4372DA9B1ECA5130BN7PR03MB3827namp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 00:37:38 -0000 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gBktkeuCFiDZ for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EC5E3A090E for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id y6so5982807lji.0 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 14:00:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xh/gXyJoY2TLHOqF+HpX6XizhydzI8NYc0AKZ4mWGms=; b=0VAWUxh9GB0M2KBqol3MR7EKhW6P9f24dF7bNvMdVv8hpDtH4ZcnJTyGwGAyQ7yICQ 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyfx1ioXcyx92cjZNqVet/pqj96DBg77gFju7AgJ/GrO1+Wshv4G/tLMUpRAQFySzAODOvtl4QRHL/pAzEO2CU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:448:: with SMTP id g8mr26557591ljg.35.1582408844690; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 14:00:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 14:00:08 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Rosenberg , v3@ietf.org Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013dd67059f3145e2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] New mailer and IETF107 BoF on RIPT - voice over httpbis/quic X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 22:00:58 -0000 --00000000000013dd67059f3145e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Jonathan, Thanks for sending this. While I think it's interesting to explore the question of how to reinvent the real-time comms infrastructure using modern Web-style technologies. I have a number of concerns with the design and assumptions embodied in this draft. WEB ARCHITECTURE This document talks multiple times about how it's designed to work with existing HTTP infrastructure and there are a number of features of this design that seem to be dictated by that. However, it seems to me that you are making a number of surprising (and perhaps incorrect) assumptions about architecture and in general this seems misguided. - Transport Connections and HTTP Requests Need Not Fate Share There seems to be an implicit assumption in this design that HTTP LBs have semi-persistent routing, such that if request 1 and request 2 go to different servers this is a "migration" event (S 8.9). This may be the case in some architectures but it's not by any means guaranteed. The LB is free to send every request to a different server, and Web applications need to be designed to accommodate this. (see, for instance: https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-google-app/9781491900246/ch01.html . section The Runtime Environment). While this might in principle be compatible with RIPT as designed, it seems unlikely to work well if each byway goes to a different server. - Use Datagrams, not Raw H3 Relatedly, trying to simulate an unreliable channel by round-robining a reliable set of streams is clumsy at best. For instance, in cases where you are transmitting too quickly, you now build up a backlog of HTTP requests which must still be (re)transmitted even though they out of date -- and they may even be transmitted before the timely ones. We already have a technology designed to provide unreliable messaging for QUIC (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/). As far as I can tell, the only reason not to use it is that you are trying to avoid making any new requirements on the server, but I think that is a mistake because (1) as noted above, you already are making non-standard assumptions and (2) the future is bigger than the past, especially given the state of QUIC deployment. - H3 Is Not Guaranteed Conversely, you can't assume that H3 will be available. A significant fraction of networks already do not pass QUIC, so if you want a viable system it has to gracefully fall back to H2. I would deal with this and the previous point by just pointing at WebTransport, which already is expected to provide both unreliable service and fallback. CALLING MODEL Assuming I am understanding this draft correctly, it does not meaingfully support incoming calls to end-user devices because you have to run a server (which end-user devices will not and generally cannot). I see you have some notion of having an extension for this, but that should be provided from the first. This seems like an odd omission to say the least. LACK OF E2E SECURITY Your charter specifies e2e security, but AFAICT, this is not provided by this specification, nor is it obvious how to enhance it to provide it. Indeed, it seems like there's not any support for a disjoint media path. You may recall that I made similar comments at the DISPATCH session in SIN, and I had understood that it was your intention to accommodate these cases, but I don't see anything here, which is somewhat disappointing. I see that the charter says "The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as MLS." I can't agree with this. If you're going to have STIR, then you have what you need to provide for E2E media encryption, and it's a regression from WebRTC not to provide it. DETAILED COMMENTS I also noted some more detailed issues, as noted below. S 3. REQ4: The solution should hide the number of servers behind the load balancer, allow the addition or removal of servers from the cluster at will, and not expose any of this information to the peer This seems like an odd requirement. I'm not sure how one would even analyze this. What about timing side channels, host-ids in cookies, etc.? S 6. To ensure authenticated caller ID everywhere, the TG specifies the set of allowed caller IDs through an [RFC8226] certificate. This not only informs the client about what numbers it can originate with, it also proves to the client that it is capable of vouching for those numbers. In what way does it prove to the client that it is capable of vouching? Certificates are public information. Is this tied to the TLS connection in some way? S 8.4. The customer TG URI has to be reachable by the server in order for the it to receive calls, and for security purposes it must also support TLS and present a valid domain certificate using the same trust chains configured into browsers. 1. There is no real IETF normative definition for the trust anchors for browsers. This is a local (And browser-specific matter) 2. It's worth noting that in this design it's not clear that you would need to have a WebPKI valid ceritifcae. S 8.5. I'm really not a fan of the handler syntax, which seems not very finished and kind of unspecified. For instance: "clientDirectives": "1 to 1: opus; 2 to 2: H264,max-width=1280,max-height=720", Why are you using JSON and then requiring me to parse a string? S 9.7. Why are you inventing your own cert enrollment protocol as opposed to using ACME? Now we have to analyze this protocol too. On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 7:46 AM Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > There is a new work effort underway to standardize an application protocol > on top of httpbis for real-time voice and video, basically replacing SIP, > RTP and SDP. This takes advantage of the usage of QUIC and UDP-based > transport, that makes httpbis more amenable to real-time. The current draft > also makes use of webtransport. > > We've got a mailer set up: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > > And you can read the core draft here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ript/?include_text=1 > > > We'll be holding a BoF at IETF107 in Vancouver with the aim of chartering > a working group. > > It would be great to get participation and support from the experts in the > quic community. > > Thx, > Jonathan R. > > -- > Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. > jdrosen@jdrosen.net > http://www.jdrosen.net > --00000000000013dd67059f3145e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jonathan,

Thanks for sending this.

While I t= hink it's interesting to explore the question of how
to reinvent the= real-time comms infrastructure using modern
Web-style technologies. I h= ave a number of concerns with
the design and assumptions embodied in thi= s draft.


WEB ARCHITECTURE
This document talks multiple times = about how it's designed to work
with existing HTTP infrastructure an= d there are a number of features
of this design that seem to be dictated= by that. However, it seems to
me that you are making a number of surpri= sing (and perhaps incorrect)
assumptions about architecture and in gener= al this seems misguided.

- Transport Connections and HTTP Requests N= eed Not Fate Share There
seems to be an implicit assumption in this desi= gn that HTTP LBs have
semi-persistent routing, such that if request 1 an= d request 2 go to
different servers this is a "migration" even= t (S 8.9). This may be the
case in some architectures but it's not b= y any means guaranteed. The
LB is free to send every request to a differ= ent server, and Web
applications need to be designed to accommodate this= .
(see, for instance: https://www.oreilly.com/libra= ry/view/programming-google-app/9781491900246/ch01.html.
section The = Runtime Environment).

While this might in principle be compatible wi= th RIPT as designed, it seems
unlikely to work well if each byway goes t= o a different server.

- Use Datagrams, not Raw H3
Relatedly, tryi= ng to simulate an unreliable channel by round-robining
a reliable set of= streams is clumsy at best. For instance, in cases
where you are transmi= tting too quickly, you now build up a backlog
of HTTP requests which mus= t still be (re)transmitted even though they
out of date -- and they may = even be transmitted before the timely
ones.

We already have a tec= hnology designed to provide unreliable messaging
for QUIC (https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/).
As far as I can tell, = the only reason not to use it is that you
are trying to avoid making any= new requirements on the server,
but I think that is a mistake because (= 1) as noted above, you
already are making non-standard assumptions and (= 2) the future
is bigger than the past, especially given the state of QUI= C deployment.


- H3 Is Not Guaranteed
Conversely, you can'= t assume that H3 will be available. A significant
fraction of networks a= lready do not pass QUIC, so if you want a
viable system it has to gracef= ully fall back to H2. I would deal with
this and the previous point by j= ust pointing at WebTransport, which
already is expected to provide both = unreliable service and fallback.


CALLING MODEL
Assuming I am = understanding this draft correctly, it does not
meaingfully support inco= ming calls to end-user devices because you
have to run a server (which e= nd-user devices will not and generally
cannot). I see you have some noti= on of having an extension for this,
but that should be provided from the= first. This seems like an odd
omission to say the least.


LAC= K OF E2E SECURITY
Your charter specifies e2e security, but AFAICT, this = is not
provided by this specification, nor is it obvious how to enhance<= br>it to provide it. Indeed, it seems like there's not any support
f= or a disjoint media path. You may recall that I made similar
comments at= the DISPATCH session in SIN, and I had understood
that it was your inte= ntion to accommodate these cases, but
I don't see anything here, whi= ch is somewhat disappointing.

I see that the charter says

&qu= ot;The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). Theprotocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is
o= ut of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as
ML= S."

I can't agree with this. If you're going to have ST= IR, then
you have what you need to provide for E2E media encryption,
= and it's a regression from WebRTC not to provide it.



DETAILED COMMENTS
I also noted some more detailed issues, as noted belo= w.

S 3.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4: The solution should hide the number of= servers behind the load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0balancer, allow the addition or re= moval of servers from the cluster
=C2=A0 =C2=A0at will, and not expose a= ny of this information to the peer

This seems like an odd requiremen= t. I'm not sure how one would even
analyze this. What about timing s= ide channels, host-ids in cookies, etc.?


S 6.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0To= ensure authenticated caller ID everywhere, the TG specifies the
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0set of allowed caller IDs through an [RFC8226] certificate.=C2=A0 Thi= s not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0only informs the client about what numbers it can ori= ginate with, it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0also proves to the client that it is capabl= e of vouching for those
=C2=A0 =C2=A0numbers.

In what way does it= prove to the client that it is capable of vouching?
Certificates are pu= blic information. Is this tied to the TLS connection
in some way?

S 8.4.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The customer TG URI has to be reachable by the = server in order for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the it to receive calls, and for securi= ty purposes it must also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support TLS and present a valid do= main certificate using the same
=C2=A0 =C2=A0trust chains configured int= o browsers.

1. There is no real IETF normative definition for the tr= ust anchors
for browsers. This is a local (And browser-specific matter)<= br>
2. It's worth noting that in this design it's not clear that= you
would need to have a WebPKI valid ceritifcae.


S 8.5.
= I'm really not a fan of the handler syntax, which seems not
very fin= ished and kind of unspecified. For instance:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"clie= ntDirectives": "1 to 1: opus;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A02 to 2: =C2=A0H264,max-width=3D1280,max-height=3D720",
Why are you using JSON and then requiring me to parse a string?

S 9.7.
Why are you inventing your own cert enrollment protocol as o= pposed
to using ACME? Now we have to analyze this protocol too.

<= br>


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 7:46 AM Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:
There i= s a new work effort underway to standardize an application protocol on top = of httpbis for real-time voice and video, basically replacing SIP, RTP and = SDP. This takes advantage of the usage of QUIC and UDP-based transport, tha= t makes httpbis more amenable to real-time. The current draft also makes us= e of webtransport.=C2=A0

We've got a mailer set up:<= /div>
And you can read the core draft here:

We'll be holding a BoF at IETF107 in Vancouver with the aim of = chartering a working group.=C2=A0

It would be grea= t to get participation and support from the experts in the quic community.= =C2=A0

Thx,
Jonathan R.=C2=A0=C2=A0

--
--00000000000013dd67059f3145e2-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 07:48:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B9B3A0D8B; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:48:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFsNSin3-JZh; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15B8C3A0D96; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id l16so7147078lfg.2; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:48:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Mgbc9zYAEdmhBOiu05RkSboh08jIpkV6+DQahAz0ewI=; b=di1QdoOEPHH1TttieGv1BXsEX9etvWRnwd/+2kLvGySPQn3Z+osnaesUVESY0XT631 0WYYvChLX6BiHw8CT+4/DgxfYoeGIj2ipv5UtwQHpzO732WCk/Q1lkxJUHeHI8UAfW2Z 2pAv/F9Xq3TUUW+xF/TfjkksEnTYEc6aPlwD9UV3wGlDGMDkTfQIYBfHWzFDhMxC5g7M DlNX9+8dkwMvnarLY06jo0JZqPhkQdI+SZPH9qfN2FKuZZL6Vd7Z73OO0k6G4LJTHPUj x2ZDPxIY9Qi00soblWQAjYVJuWdGixWpnrU0gumhcAzSLHnsQuccANEZCv0ySnAF1pIV /dqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Mgbc9zYAEdmhBOiu05RkSboh08jIpkV6+DQahAz0ewI=; b=tvEA2ozTdHcBY1FfwffjSgktxkmmb/T8GspDY2RnnrdwJSCZckiRpF0PVN746F8PK4 pMsKVthMiO2HNPqp+1ewUaz65Nzq1rlfDCRncqLdBROZLw4Nm/J5CjU6uF8VE4olLzYn UgbMVi9uRmFlWy5a/ereqwCHpsSpM/jbKoY3HI8JS2hVqfauBB2d8r7nU0Cnz64pOBXl N4YUS81hMo1vuGzTyDO3RKFFBfLf5fxNumgX67FqgnyusqY73P9m0OxNONzWEMJyUMQr UktiwgQUxS9e8RqLRYA0OfFuIttY813SwPyzeWW8ShjK4Nn7gE6BlNen4sIqWIxffUVX xU3A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUGBdINvraYQyML1IQb1KfauO2so7+vk1sUa6j/T+eO/IdXbVht ZY8GGxowJyA7P80qOlbCUKREWQleeeLSQ3oAVh7keogUXz4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx+yCAAoz0pD33gMsfuYz8NyzxCPMPKTwrXJbKCc3tDH2gGFfVKbuOMaNs+W1xoJ8a/ecgw3b2MYN1hlJci42Q= X-Received: by 2002:a19:ca59:: with SMTP id h25mr27858599lfj.27.1582559296182; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:48:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:47:49 -0600 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , v3@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af5c52059f544c1f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] New mailer and IETF107 BoF on RIPT - voice over httpbis/quic X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:48:28 -0000 --000000000000af5c52059f544c1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Eric, I'm not Jonathan, or any of the proponents, but ... On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 4:00 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > Jonathan, > > Thanks for sending this. > > While I think it's interesting to explore the question of how > to reinvent the real-time comms infrastructure using modern > Web-style technologies. I have a number of concerns with > the design and assumptions embodied in this draft. > > > WEB ARCHITECTURE > This document talks multiple times about how it's designed to work > with existing HTTP infrastructure and there are a number of features > of this design that seem to be dictated by that. However, it seems to > me that you are making a number of surprising (and perhaps incorrect) > assumptions about architecture and in general this seems misguided. > > - Transport Connections and HTTP Requests Need Not Fate Share There > seems to be an implicit assumption in this design that HTTP LBs have > semi-persistent routing, such that if request 1 and request 2 go to > different servers this is a "migration" event (S 8.9). This may be the > case in some architectures but it's not by any means guaranteed. The > LB is free to send every request to a different server, and Web > applications need to be designed to accommodate this.. > (see, for instance: > https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-google-app/9781491900246/ch01.html > . > section The Runtime Environment). > > While this might in principle be compatible with RIPT as designed, it seems > unlikely to work well if each byway goes to a different server. > > - Use Datagrams, not Raw H3 > Relatedly, trying to simulate an unreliable channel by round-robining > a reliable set of streams is clumsy at best. For instance, in cases > where you are transmitting too quickly, you now build up a backlog > of HTTP requests which must still be (re)transmitted even though they > out of date -- and they may even be transmitted before the timely > ones. > > We already have a technology designed to provide unreliable messaging > for QUIC (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/). > As far as I can tell, the only reason not to use it is that you > are trying to avoid making any new requirements on the server, > but I think that is a mistake because (1) as noted above, you > already are making non-standard assumptions and (2) the future > is bigger than the past, especially given the state of QUIC deployment. > I asked about this, too, in a different thread. The two things that came up were - They really do want to fate-share everything over HTTP (although you've added concerns about why that might not be a good thing), and - QUIC's recharter to include datagram support was only approved last Thursday, so there was a race condition between QUIC being chartered to do datagrams and other proposed charters that might make use of QUIC datagrams. I am hoping for continued discussion about the media story on list before the BOF, because I'd expect having this discussion during the BOF would be "more robust than we would hope". :-) Best, Spencer > - H3 Is Not Guaranteed > Conversely, you can't assume that H3 will be available. A significant > fraction of networks already do not pass QUIC, so if you want a > viable system it has to gracefully fall back to H2. I would deal with > this and the previous point by just pointing at WebTransport, which > already is expected to provide both unreliable service and fallback. > > > CALLING MODEL > Assuming I am understanding this draft correctly, it does not > meaingfully support incoming calls to end-user devices because you > have to run a server (which end-user devices will not and generally > cannot). I see you have some notion of having an extension for this, > but that should be provided from the first. This seems like an odd > omission to say the least. > > > LACK OF E2E SECURITY > Your charter specifies e2e security, but AFAICT, this is not > provided by this specification, nor is it obvious how to enhance > it to provide it. Indeed, it seems like there's not any support > for a disjoint media path. You may recall that I made similar > comments at the DISPATCH session in SIN, and I had understood > that it was your intention to accommodate these cases, but > I don't see anything here, which is somewhat disappointing. > > I see that the charter says > > "The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization > (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The > protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is > out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as > MLS." > > I can't agree with this. If you're going to have STIR, then > you have what you need to provide for E2E media encryption, > and it's a regression from WebRTC not to provide it. > > > > > DETAILED COMMENTS > I also noted some more detailed issues, as noted below. > > S 3. > REQ4: The solution should hide the number of servers behind the load > balancer, allow the addition or removal of servers from the cluster > at will, and not expose any of this information to the peer > > This seems like an odd requirement. I'm not sure how one would even > analyze this. What about timing side channels, host-ids in cookies, etc.? > > > S 6. > To ensure authenticated caller ID everywhere, the TG specifies the > set of allowed caller IDs through an [RFC8226] certificate. This not > only informs the client about what numbers it can originate with, it > also proves to the client that it is capable of vouching for those > numbers. > > In what way does it prove to the client that it is capable of vouching? > Certificates are public information. Is this tied to the TLS connection > in some way? > > > S 8.4. > The customer TG URI has to be reachable by the server in order for > the it to receive calls, and for security purposes it must also > support TLS and present a valid domain certificate using the same > trust chains configured into browsers. > > 1. There is no real IETF normative definition for the trust anchors > for browsers. This is a local (And browser-specific matter) > > 2. It's worth noting that in this design it's not clear that you > would need to have a WebPKI valid ceritifcae. > > > S 8.5. > I'm really not a fan of the handler syntax, which seems not > very finished and kind of unspecified. For instance: > > "clientDirectives": "1 to 1: opus; > 2 to 2: > H264,max-width=1280,max-height=720", > > Why are you using JSON and then requiring me to parse a string? > > > S 9.7. > Why are you inventing your own cert enrollment protocol as opposed > to using ACME? Now we have to analyze this protocol too. > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 7:46 AM Jonathan Rosenberg > wrote: > >> There is a new work effort underway to standardize an application >> protocol on top of httpbis for real-time voice and video, basically >> replacing SIP, RTP and SDP. This takes advantage of the usage of QUIC and >> UDP-based transport, that makes httpbis more amenable to real-time. The >> current draft also makes use of webtransport. >> >> We've got a mailer set up: >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> >> And you can read the core draft here: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosenbergjennings-dispatch-ript/?include_text=1 >> >> >> We'll be holding a BoF at IETF107 in Vancouver with the aim of chartering >> a working group. >> >> It would be great to get participation and support from the experts in >> the quic community. >> >> Thx, >> Jonathan R. >> >> -- >> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. >> jdrosen@jdrosen.net >> http://www.jdrosen.net >> > --000000000000af5c52059f544c1f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Eric,=C2=A0

I'= m not Jonathan, or any of the proponents, but ...=C2=A0

On Sat, Feb 22= , 2020 at 4:00 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtf= m.com> wrote:
Jonathan,

Thanks for sending this.

Whil= e I think it's interesting to explore the question of how
to reinven= t the real-time comms infrastructure using modern
Web-style technologies= . I have a number of concerns with
the design and assumptions embodied i= n this draft.


WEB ARCHITECTURE
This document talks multiple t= imes about how it's designed to work
with existing HTTP infrastructu= re and there are a number of features
of this design that seem to be dic= tated by that. However, it seems to
me that you are making a number of s= urprising (and perhaps incorrect)
assumptions about architecture and in = general this seems misguided.

- Transport Connections and HTTP Reque= sts Need Not Fate Share There
seems to be an implicit assumption in this= design that HTTP LBs have
semi-persistent routing, such that if request= 1 and request 2 go to
different servers this is a "migration"= event (S 8.9). This may be the
case in some architectures but it's = not by any means guaranteed. The
LB is free to send every request to a d= ifferent server, and Web
applications need to be designed to accommodate= this..
(see, for instance: https= ://www.oreilly.com/library/view/programming-google-app/9781491900246/ch01.h= tml.
section The Runtime Environment).

While this might in pr= inciple be compatible with RIPT as designed, it seems
unlikely to work w= ell if each byway goes to a different server.

- Use Datagrams, not R= aw H3
Relatedly, trying to simulate an unreliable channel by round-robin= ing
a reliable set of streams is clumsy at best. For instance, in cases<= br>where you are transmitting too quickly, you now build up a backlog
of= HTTP requests which must still be (re)transmitted even though they
out = of date -- and they may even be transmitted before the timely
ones.
<= br>We already have a technology designed to provide unreliable messagingfor QUIC (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic= -datagram/).
As far as I can tell, the only reason not to use it is = that you
are trying to avoid making any new requirements on the server,<= br>but I think that is a mistake because (1) as noted above, you
already= are making non-standard assumptions and (2) the future
is bigger than t= he past, especially given the state of QUIC deployment.

I asked about this, too, in a different thread. The = two things that came up were=C2=A0
  • They really do want to= fate-share everything over HTTP (although you've added concerns about = why that might not be a good thing), and=C2=A0
  • QUIC's recharter= to include datagram support was only approved last Thursday, so there was = a race condition between QUIC being chartered to do datagrams and other pro= posed charters that might make use of QUIC datagrams.
I am ho= ping for continued discussion about the media story on list before the BOF,= because I'd expect having this discussion during the BOF would be &quo= t;more robust than we would hope". :-)

= Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
- H3 Is Not Guaranteed=
Conversely, you can't assume that H3 will be available. A significa= nt
fraction of networks already do not pass QUIC, so if you want a
vi= able system it has to gracefully fall back to H2. I would deal with
this= and the previous point by just pointing at WebTransport, which
already = is expected to provide both unreliable service and fallback.


CAL= LING MODEL
Assuming I am understanding this draft correctly, it does not=
meaingfully support incoming calls to end-user devices because you
h= ave to run a server (which end-user devices will not and generally
canno= t). I see you have some notion of having an extension for this,
but that= should be provided from the first. This seems like an odd
omission to s= ay the least.


LACK OF E2E SECURITY
Your charter specifies e2e= security, but AFAICT, this is not
provided by this specification, nor i= s it obvious how to enhance
it to provide it. Indeed, it seems like ther= e's not any support
for a disjoint media path. You may recall that I= made similar
comments at the DISPATCH session in SIN, and I had underst= ood
that it was your intention to accommodate these cases, but
I don&= #39;t see anything here, which is somewhat disappointing.

I see that= the charter says

"The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authen= tication and authorization
(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encr= yption (i.e., https). The
protocol will also allow for e2e media encrypt= ion, although keying is
out of scope, and is expected to be handled by o= ther protocols such as
MLS."

I can't agree with this. If= you're going to have STIR, then
you have what you need to provide f= or E2E media encryption,
and it's a regression from WebRTC not to pr= ovide it.




DETAILED COMMENTS
I also noted some more de= tailed issues, as noted below.

S 3.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0REQ4: The soluti= on should hide the number of servers behind the load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0balanc= er, allow the addition or removal of servers from the cluster
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0at will, and not expose any of this information to the peer

This = seems like an odd requirement. I'm not sure how one would even
analy= ze this. What about timing side channels, host-ids in cookies, etc.?

S 6.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0To ensure authenticated caller ID everywhere, the= TG specifies the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of allowed caller IDs through an [RFC= 8226] certificate.=C2=A0 This not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0only informs the client a= bout what numbers it can originate with, it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0also proves to = the client that it is capable of vouching for those
=C2=A0 =C2=A0numbers= .

In what way does it prove to the client that it is capable of vouc= hing?
Certificates are public information. Is this tied to the TLS conne= ction
in some way?


S 8.4.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The customer TG URI= has to be reachable by the server in order for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the it to r= eceive calls, and for security purposes it must also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0suppor= t TLS and present a valid domain certificate using the same
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0trust chains configured into browsers.

1. There is no real IETF n= ormative definition for the trust anchors
for browsers. This is a local = (And browser-specific matter)

2. It's worth noting that in this = design it's not clear that you
would need to have a WebPKI valid cer= itifcae.


S 8.5.
I'm really not a fan of the handler synta= x, which seems not
very finished and kind of unspecified. For instance:<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0"clientDirectives": "1 to 1: opus;
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02 to 2: =C2=A0H264,max-width= =3D1280,max-height=3D720",

Why are you using JSON and then requ= iring me to parse a string?


S 9.7.
Why are you inventing your= own cert enrollment protocol as opposed
to using ACME? Now we have to a= nalyze this protocol too.





On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 7:46 A= M Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:
There is a new work effort under= way to standardize an application protocol on top of httpbis for real-time = voice and video, basically replacing SIP, RTP and SDP. This takes advantage= of the usage of QUIC and UDP-based transport, that makes httpbis more amen= able to real-time. The current draft also makes use of webtransport.=C2=A0<= div>
We've got a mailer set up:

And you = can read the core draft here:

We'll be hold= ing a BoF at IETF107 in Vancouver with the aim of chartering a working grou= p.=C2=A0

It would be great to get participation an= d support from the experts in the quic community.=C2=A0

Thx,
Jonathan R.=C2=A0=C2=A0

--
--000000000000af5c52059f544c1f-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 09:33:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF76F3A0F3F; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:33:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxpKuXyiKDT7; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f181.google.com (mail-oi1-f181.google.com [209.85.167.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BA893A0F32; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f181.google.com with SMTP id q81so9745357oig.0; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:33:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cld1PV0ZDuBuHHbci9qz97Vc8bmgaXaPe7vSuCS8Zd8=; b=LGIIJcRsPgAOrCe0D4XEDlBWgKgDQdQKpsY4HClsJPB7hOA9FYQ1cH00XY+pM+0y6u SXx7d+aOM9rKpa2HcDMr+JaeNJ80CEt4ML/cJ1+4rzRELC8AtPJNJA8mn1SSPWcWMCq1 F4RjgzcoDsgeNhbpRQ3Bj7Fiygp7xJsPemqpYs5uMZyIecjZgamPrU0VtIQBCyNPGT73 KmupiTG2/wt2DIyDBZyRwnxwFKWX/UKBn6TFjqrvbtO3HpFf2wpf2tWPNUZZCYUMGcvs /zGaYZRue2QIG3u7md2ACf4Qzhb5J0OTXrQpmK097Y2B9rDaFkTL4V8bgs5pA2nGfdbk DGow== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6SzBLOtaDLesyUMjeF/B+PeMiK4fCtS2BmjpNOPLWHrIoR11g Y3gyT8IDLsCtcpdDgzPvjpTsRtcp2/VUI1TgHsw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzSvrN5BeqM1uFTKKnnup8IPsV0bDeUSNkpbtw5+FXLqlvly4ivNPu78TicGh1xbiiOMLtafyyAiulH1MTlYTM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4106:: with SMTP id o6mr105082oia.173.1582565616536; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 09:33:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:33:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Eric Rescorla , Jonathan Rosenberg , IETF QUIC WG , v3@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068528e059f55c5d2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] New mailer and IETF107 BoF on RIPT - voice over httpbis/quic X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 17:33:39 -0000 --00000000000068528e059f55c5d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Stepping back a bit, I think one of the reasons for the focus on HTTP is to be found in the current state of Voice/Video codecs on at the platform level. Apple, Microsoft and Google have different models which makes supporting a voice or video app on multiple platforms 'challenging' to say the least. And so if you search for information on how to code such an app, you get back a dozen hits for middleware libraries that promise to provide multi-platform support. The cause of the Iowa caucus meltdown in the US was an app provider used one of the middleware layers to build the app. The free level proved sufficient for testing but couldn't support demand on the day. IETF doesn't do APIs of course. Only that is exactly what a Web service interface is just passing parameters over wires instead of via the stack. If there is successful IETF activity in this space supported by the major platform providers, there will be a dialectic interaction with the platform APIs resulting in the emergence of a common intersection. The difference between the Web Service approach and QUIC datagram approach is the first is a reliable transport, the second is not. And that is very important when the data in a packet is time sensitive. No point in resending a lost audio packet after the listener has heard that bit. If we know the transport is lossy, we may design our compression system differently. So while I see great value in pursuing both approaches, it is clear that we want to do the lossy datagram model in the near future and that it is the harder case. Given that the real payoff here is the constraints on the APIs, I think we need to make the QUIC approach the lead. The problem here is that we are talking about 'protocol' but our negotiations are actually causing a chain of interactions with the CODEC and API people at the end of them. I think we owe it to the people at the other end of that communication to tell them the full set of what we want up front rather than in two separate stages. > --00000000000068528e059f55c5d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stepping back a bit, I think one of the reasons for the focus= on HTTP is to be found in the current state of Voice/Video codecs on at th= e platform level.=C2=A0

A= pple, Microsoft and Google have different models which=C2=A0makes supportin= g a voice or video app on multiple platforms 'challenging' to say t= he least. And so if you search for information on how to code such an app, = you get back a dozen hits for middleware libraries that promise to provide = multi-platform support.

T= he cause of the Iowa caucus meltdown in the US was an app provider used one= of the middleware layers to build the app. The free level proved sufficien= t for testing but couldn't support demand on the day.

IETF doesn't do APIs of course. Only= that is exactly what a Web service interface is just passing parameters ov= er wires instead of via the stack.

If there is successful IETF activity in this space supported by = the major platform providers, there will be a dialectic interaction with th= e platform APIs resulting in the emergence of a common intersection.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">
The difference between the Web= Service approach and QUIC datagram approach is the first is a reliable tra= nsport, the second is not. And that is very important when the data in a pa= cket is time sensitive. No point in resending a lost audio packet after the= listener has heard that bit. If we know the transport is lossy, we may des= ign our compression system differently.

So while I see great value in pursuing both approaches, it i= s clear that we want to do the lossy datagram model in the near future and = that it is the harder case. Given that the real payoff here is the constrai= nts on the APIs, I think we need to make the QUIC approach the lead.
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">
The problem here is that we ar= e talking about 'protocol' but our negotiations are actually causin= g a chain of interactions with the CODEC and API people at the end of them.= I think we owe it to the people at the other end of that communication to = tell them the full set of what we want up front rather than in two separate= stages.
--00000000000068528e059f55c5d2-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:04:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA283A0796 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFjV0cePkRSN for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CB683A0791 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hta-rhino.sto.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:12:41d2:25eb:ea72:51]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F22087C5170 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:04:17 +0100 (CET) To: v3@ietf.org From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:04:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:04:22 -0000 Hi, I'm late to this mailing list, it seems - with Vancouver closing in, I'm looking forward to the RIPT BOF. Is there a page somewhere that collects agenda, the list of published drafts and links to relevant documents yet? Harald From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:21:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF81D3A0862 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AXEM3Q41xnBI for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:50ed:8223::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1325B3A084E for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from p200300dee7239a0050446727618d4332.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([2003:de:e723:9a00:5044:6727:618d:4332]); authenticated by wp513.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) id 1j7J6E-0005Yl-3g; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:21:10 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Mirja Kuehlewind In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:21:09 +0100 Cc: v3@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5505E54A-ED9E-486A-B271-6D319C0B6306@kuehlewind.net> References: To: Harald Alvestrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;ietf@kuehlewind.net;1582809674;9905a3fd; X-HE-SMSGID: 1j7J6E-0005Yl-3g Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:21:22 -0000 Just check out the BoF wiki? https://tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ > On 27. Feb 2020, at 14:04, Harald Alvestrand wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm late to this mailing list, it seems - with Vancouver closing in, I'm > looking forward to the RIPT BOF. > > Is there a page somewhere that collects agenda, the list of published > drafts and links to relevant documents yet? > > Harald > > > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:23:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639033A0806 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:23:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jkR95sVu9Ikc for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 649A93A080C for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 216924F4C3042D772552; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:23:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.39) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:23:10 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.202]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:23:03 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Harald Alvestrand , "v3@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? Thread-Index: AQHV7W5zBEjaI5g/S0y6+SqjmX5+DqgvBuzA Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:23:03 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DA0D94@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.72] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:23:14 -0000 All the documents are in the dispatch WG https://tools.ietf.org/wg/dispatch= / with the ript key word Roni > -----Original Message----- > From: V3 [mailto:v3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Harald Alvestrand > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 3:04 PM > To: v3@ietf.org > Subject: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I'm late to this mailing list, it seems - with Vancouver closing in, I'm = looking > forward to the RIPT BOF. >=20 > Is there a page somewhere that collects agenda, the list of published dra= fts > and links to relevant documents yet? >=20 > Harald >=20 >=20 > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 From nobody Thu Feb 27 06:44:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426BA3A0A4D for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:44:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 03zDgZ26BDRt for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:2::117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 944363A0A47 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hta-rhino.sto.corp.google.com (unknown [IPv6:2620:0:1043:12:41d2:25eb:ea72:51]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFF1D7C5170 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:44:08 +0100 (CET) To: v3@ietf.org References: <5505E54A-ED9E-486A-B271-6D319C0B6306@kuehlewind.net> From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:44:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5505E54A-ED9E-486A-B271-6D319C0B6306@kuehlewind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] Status, agenda, docs? X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:44:14 -0000 On 2/27/20 2:21 PM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Just check out the BoF wiki? > > https://tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/ Thank you both! Now for the reading... > > > >> On 27. Feb 2020, at 14:04, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm late to this mailing list, it seems - with Vancouver closing in, I'm >> looking forward to the RIPT BOF. >> >> Is there a page somewhere that collects agenda, the list of published >> drafts and links to relevant documents yet? >> >> Harald >> >> >> -- >> V3 mailing list >> V3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 >> From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:38:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietf.org Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A723A1F91; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: adam@nostrum.com, v3@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292932100.19931.5111924260652866697@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [V3] ript - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:35:27 -0000 Dear Amy Vezza, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. ript Session 1 (2:00 requested) Thursday, 26 March 2020, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530 Room Name: Plaza B/C size: 300 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/ript.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Realtime Internet Peering for Telephony Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Amy Vezza Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: httpbis quic sipcore tls wpack webtrans People who must be present: Adam Roach Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 28 23:51:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD5D3A0AE9 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:51:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1Pe8LGD4JGZ for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18A163A0AF8 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 96B673624BB26DC7DC11 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:09 +0000 Received: from lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) by lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:10 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.209) by lhreml718-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.69) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:09 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.49]) by DGGEMM401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.209]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:51:06 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Jonathan Rosenberg , "v3@ietf.org" CC: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" Thread-Topic: RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below Thread-Index: AdXjgeGz8imU79X0QTWjBiq5oM7qsgLUZ0xQ Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:05 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DA8D2F@DGGEMM506-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.210.166.11] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DA8D2FDGGEMM506MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:51:33 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DA8D2FDGGEMM506MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I read the drafts. I like the idea of having the endpoint capabilities know= n in advance making call establishment simpler. We have the must support co= decs in RTCweb and this is a step forwards. Maybe it is also about time to = deprecate the "MUST support H.261/G.711" in older documents (H.323,...). As for media transport, I think that Jorge and Colin document provide good = starting point and motivation why to use datagrams for the media and it is = my preference for conversional services to have the application layer decid= e if to retransmit. My view is that for audio it is not needed (use redund= ancy, the best retransmission is for the listener to say "I could not hear = it, can you please repeat". As for video my view is that the requirement is not retransmission but re-s= ynchronize. For "talking heads" video conference just resynch and continue. Roni From: V3 [mailto:v3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2020 12:00 AM To: v3@ietf.org Cc: Cullen Jennings (fluffy) Subject: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below Good news folks - RIPT bof was approved for IETF107 and we'll be meeting. G= oal is to try and get a WG formed. As such, charter discussion is in order.= Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draft charter. Comments please: This working group will standardize a protocol, capable of operating atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and video communications, including signaling, media negotiation, and transmission of media packets. The primary rationale for this new protocol is to enable deployment of real-time communications services on modern "cloud" systems. These systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based applications, they enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. However, real-time communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, and they cannot take advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities. It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate all of SIP and its many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itself to supporting the functionality in widespread actual usage today. The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication and authorization (notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption (i.e., https). The protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, although keying is out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other protocols such as MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for callerID. This protocol should be implementable in browsers, thick desktop clients, mobile apps and servers. The group will standardize an extension to the baseline protocol that automates the configuration necessary to achieve calling between on organization which is a customer of the other (for example, enterprise to service provider). [OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or something else ?] The group will do its work in conjunction with active software development efforts, so that implementation experience feeds directly into protocol development. The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC, HTTPbis and STIR working groups. Milestones: Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG Thx, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan Rosenberg CTO and Head of AI, Five9 ________________________________ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and any files attached may contain conf= idential information of Five9 and/or its affiliated entities. Access by the= intended recipient only is authorized. Any liability arising from any part= y acting, or refraining from acting, on any information contained in this e= -mail is hereby excluded. If you are not the intended recipient, please not= ify the sender immediately, destroy the original transmission and its attac= hments and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any= purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Copyright in this= e-mail and any attachments belongs to Five9 and/or its affiliated entities= . --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27DA8D2FDGGEMM506MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<= /p>

I read the drafts. I l= ike the idea of having the endpoint capabilities known in advance making ca= ll establishment simpler. We have the must support codecs in RTCweb and thi= s is a step forwards. Maybe it is also about time to deprecate the “MUST support H.261/G.711” in olde= r documents (H.323,…).

As for media transport= , I think that Jorge and Colin document provide good starting point and mot= ivation why to use datagrams for the media and it is my preference for conv= ersional services to have the application layer decide if to retransmit.  My view is that for audio it is not n= eeded (use redundancy, the best retransmission is for the listener to say &= #8220;I could not hear it, can you please repeat”.<= /p>

As for video my view i= s that the requirement is not retransmission but re-synchronize. For “= ;talking heads” video conference just resynch and continue.

 

Roni  =

 

 

From: V3 [mail= to:v3-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2020 12:00 AM
To: v3@ietf.org
Cc: Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
Subject: [V3] RIPT BoF approved for IETF 107 - Draft charter below

 

Good news folks – RIPT bof was approved for IE= TF107 and we’ll be meeting. Goal is to try and get a WG formed. As su= ch, charter discussion is in order. Cullen, myself and Justin worked a draf= t charter. Comments please:

 

 

This working group will standardize a protocol, capa= ble of operating

atop HTTP/3, which supports real-time voice and vide= o communications,

including signaling, media negotiation, and transmis= sion of media

packets.

 

The primary rationale for this new protocol is to en= able deployment of

real-time communications services on modern "cl= oud" systems. These

systems are built around HTTP, and for HTTP-based ap= plications, they

enable load balancing, HA, auto-scaling, and so on. = However, real-time

communications protocols are based on SIP and RTP, a= nd they cannot take

advantage of these HTTP-based capabilities.

 

It is a non-goal of this working group to replicate = all of SIP and its

many extensions into HTTP. The group will limit itse= lf to supporting the

functionality in widespread actual usage today.=

 

The protocol uses HTTP techniques for authentication= and authorization

(notably OAuth), and requires hop by hop encryption = (i.e., https). The

protocol will also allow for e2e media encryption, a= lthough keying is

out of scope, and is expected to be handled by other= protocols such as

MLS. This extension will also utilize STIR for calle= rID.

 

This protocol should be implementable in browsers, t= hick desktop

clients, mobile apps and servers.

 

The group will standardize an extension to the basel= ine protocol that

automates the configuration necessary to achieve cal= ling between on

organization which is a customer of the other (for e= xample, enterprise

to service provider).

 

[OPEN ISSUE: Is P2P media in or out? If in, ICE or s= omething else ?]

 

The group will do its work in conjunction with activ= e software

development efforts, so that implementation experien= ce feeds directly

into protocol development.

 

The group will coordinate with the Webtranport, QUIC= , HTTPbis and STIR

working groups.

 

Milestones:

 

Dec 2020: Submit baseline protocol to IESG

Mar 2021: Submit autoconfiguration protocol to IESG<= o:p>

 

Thx,

Jonathan R.

 

--

Jonathan Rosenberg

CTO and Head of AI, Five9

 

 


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