From nobody Wed Apr 1 09:27:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v3@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61B863A1288 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:27:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zrI6LkXFM8di for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe30.google.com (mail-vs1-xe30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4AC43A12A2 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe30.google.com with SMTP id z125so216206vsb.13 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 09:26:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bbq1Nk6vH2t413TLsSKQvTOi8NuFK7/lyvVpcRPFwP8=; b=ElnPdeXSIcjrp5PgZsD0n/3h/9KHA6dYO64PZMb0bTQ910gPh5q5xFZXYDq4z66pPN GOkD4ZdvaLqpG1ePLCO2DhFObJRJRpb+gfHEq9C95OKlO/nxt/uhE3oHZEmMn4W9/5+Z udvS2dKqeKAxPM4stZinGjee/ly+kescBR6Q4CNNXbYliBcUaGOTNfQLLPrgnb9PHyqj KASxDOsa/2caaK+HS+FaYFUIZYqFxsEmp8HQIs1yzIo+395JVAgFiAQFWDQc0M8qhOoi UATm6ETJP2StuBUwwxC1EX8nD9PL+jC58oU1/6CyyvyxGU6xfPjjTsoHoAh9XuaBKlJp cdag== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bbq1Nk6vH2t413TLsSKQvTOi8NuFK7/lyvVpcRPFwP8=; b=XO5ZK8X7VpK/bM/dGehYPy5J3LvsO/QrPtYv01U2b28V9DKpW6IufYY9aKDXidn/Xd Bo/jrgGj6XLjcN376DT5SWH0GdX6CM+QogAKf40q5yNSrlASAmggBUZSs7nLKzFCisw3 oYT4bhp47M+nz/rCkE3DFrjKEsfHU/dwORIDnpra+C5Ra5cPl9gWSFU2nmGuVmOKa+3o xSj7pyo6iQrYKP9uxcLETpbl//0A/X79w6aniFieRWmgo3tsjD44qkC1Td9bFU1U53W9 5A32P29D6bSTgDjtVSludREIkmwRtHSfmagw85YVuCQx95VCOG9b2xoublxA8vZPnnTZ 9wRg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuanxyHQwwob/IPvwZEmWltcHxHtcIPMRZSrjJAk9gHBVciB0/1Y +BlTtdgtur/ShENPCuzihH8vAXs4Z57kCm3sMgn/eA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJinmFsZrS5M+fZDzEDjm2IJxe6yD/RO4FDk70HVgppKwCJASrKS1db0PKZUCefPTirfbLIj6w8nWFieV8zanQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:7bb:: with SMTP id x27mr5891982vsg.43.1585758371299; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 09:26:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Justin Uberti Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 09:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" Cc: "Asveren, Tolga" , "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c300005a23d2487" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] LB / Failure Detection X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 16:27:13 -0000 --0000000000006c300005a23d2487 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Specifically, HTTP LBs can use the fields from the HTTP header to do routing and load-balancing, e.g., the request path, API key, client cookies, auth header, etc, rather than just the 5-tuple used by L4 LBs. On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:35 PM Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote: > > In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a HTTP LB instead of L4 LB? > > There are many reasons why HTTP apps use HTTP LB instead of (or in > addition to) L4 LB, such as flexibility, programmability, feature rich > ecosystem, etc. The HTTP list may be a better place for such a question and > discussion though, since this is not specific to RIPT, but applies to all > HTTP apps. > > Thanks, > Mo > > On 3/30/20, 7:19 PM, "V3 on behalf of Asveren, Tolga" on behalf of tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote: > > A basic question about how RIPT would make things better compared to RTP > in terms of making use of Public Cloud Load-balancers: > > > > With RTP: One can use L4 LB distributing traffic to a Redundancy Group. > The pain point is that LB is slow in detecting failures of Redundancy Group > members. > > With RIPT media: One can use HTTP LB distributing traffic a Redundancy > Group. I would think failure detection characteristics will be similar to > L4 LB and delayed failure detection issue would continue to be an issue. > > > > In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a HTTP LB instead of L4 LB? > > > > Thanks, > > Tolga > > > ------------------------------ > Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information > of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for > the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or > distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender > immediately and then delete all copies, including any attachments. > ------------------------------ > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > --0000000000006c300005a23d2487 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Specifically, HTTP LBs can use the fields from the HTTP he= ader to do routing and load-balancing, e.g., the request path, API key, cli= ent cookies, auth header, etc, rather than just the 5-tuple used by L4 LBs.= =C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:35 PM Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) <mzanaty=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org&= gt; wrote:

> In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a H= TTP LB instead of L4 LB?


There are many reasons why HTTP apps use HTTP LB instead of (or in add= ition to) L4 LB, such as flexibility, programmability, feature rich ecosyst= em, etc. The HTTP list may be a better place for such a question and discus= sion though, since this is not specific to RIPT, but applies to all HTTP apps.

Thanks,
Mo

On 3/30/20, 7:19 PM, "V3 on behalf of Asveren, Tolga" <v3-bounces@ietf.org<= /a> on behalf of tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:

A basic question about how RIPT would make things be= tter compared to RTP in terms of making use of Public Cloud Load-balancers:=

=C2=A0

With RTP: One can use L4 LB distributing traffic to = a Redundancy Group. The pain point is that LB is slow in detecting failures= of Redundancy Group members.

With RIPT media: One can use HTTP LB distributing tr= affic a Redundancy Group. I would think failure detection characteristics w= ill be similar to L4 LB and delayed failure detection issue would continue = to be an issue.

=C2=A0

In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a HTTP L= B instead of L4 LB?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Tolga



Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information o= f Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for th= e sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or d= istribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the inte= nded recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all co= pies, including any attachments.
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id b8mr8378133ila.68.1586609555949; Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:52:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jonathan Rosenberg Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 08:52:25 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "Asveren, Tolga" Cc: "v3@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fadc7005a30352a9" X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: ecbiz261.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: jdrosen+jdrosen.net/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: ecbiz261.inmotionhosting.com: jdrosen@jdrosen.net X-Originating-IP: 173.231.209.30 X-SpamExperts-Domain: ecbiz261.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 173.231.209.30 Authentication-Results: servconfig.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=173.231.209.30@ecbiz261.inmotionhosting.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0VxB0mWeGZk2wSOLROvd+japSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDVIBiLrYj5ZoIoy4PXHicFwFw 5HF8KiNxM6kSO29YenaAFMuA+wT596Bw8G7jZN/COD1iTNszLoM5iEbcxRy+GrzXpowsUIBWsz7t tC2m2ThBbLcvEVRb/r9HWBYzE6OiUynZipmyZiM0lULr8PxcDTFeR7iYgD7L1JDfdeNbg6GpMgA1 FfmD5Q1Ri4JUCeduAwCaU+JKXuJDa3LaePMOFRkhzVJFWn887ct0NFXnFWKxnGmiI3p9NEdyvIai 1RA3FPo67MEDuAALBU22yFTfTjFLpPQ2bGaaic07uJ3vXyFtAA0UIYoHm1gwgFcgYa/4CwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwms9uj8bOqE9zVJwqYsk3or8Gj2HmxmMxqxWK5EnsxU GLXTnONsqyI++u9UMf5U2lFyXMWcv2ZlvSNZcmGO3E8wIzvpj9IzyBpc10ZJwnPg5VdFooc4Ml+f zaTuMk8d7ueBBS1NBzTSKooAXS9v0363eKxov/m0sX0yEoSqTg8FpgeYUOp7A73HI6oJg7w/Vof6 YmOb0cm/jlUi0C0X1wkZmvtgLQBE6JCZUWue67WpMNceukMN09FBQI4tHOZJwryo3XV1cJLZMtEz A2v+alrb+9VmH4yLdjIP1NJr6OX7MYY/QERfiWFBSy9n7PhFo6l+Mbudfp5LBMcdFnCMH+M4mAYv aUaO8fjdLqBdSBuggO5ju7W/Y+RQq5XLdDQ0RP/Kir5QPkBrQyl4yskJmeQu647lNwN4qOsSZg+f YhVZGxpN1T+iX953am4sFN+f3QgEiBscwRdrth+1+oWTDTjsr38cN0L29hpYqOQomv/Sn+VqlxCw ALt0hbFWOgdGYXTpvNtRsd99Q/INNbtNR5q5d5O7X0it+0/kURoXh2ZFLG+oUxu75HT7xuCs3Hk6 gtbuIpMEOulDVml39K4YUCHJMS+4ayUpOtEhdxekWDmK9g== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se1-lax1.servconfig.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [V3] LB / Failure Detection X-BeenThere: v3@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 12:53:06 -0000 --000000000000fadc7005a30352a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" You can distribute RTP, but its the SIP+RTP that is really painful in combo. If the goal is for SIP+RTP to land on the same instance, what you want is initial load balancing across the cluster for the SIP message. Once this lands on a specific node in the cluster, you want subsequent SIP, and all of the media, to land on that node. Because the RTP has a totally different 5-tuple than then SIP, the L4 LB will not send it to the same instance. We also would like decryption to happen at the edge for the outer transport; obviously this doesnt happen with L4 load balancers, and that is a feature we want. We also want more advanced load balancing features that see into the application layer - URL maps in the http world. We cannot do that with L4 load balancers. Thx, Jonathan R. On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:20 PM Asveren, Tolga wrote: > A basic question about how RIPT would make things better compared to RTP > in terms of making use of Public Cloud Load-balancers: > > > > With RTP: One can use L4 LB distributing traffic to a Redundancy Group. > The pain point is that LB is slow in detecting failures of Redundancy Group > members. > > With RIPT media: One can use HTTP LB distributing traffic a Redundancy > Group. I would think failure detection characteristics will be similar to > L4 LB and delayed failure detection issue would continue to be an issue. > > > > In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a HTTP LB instead of L4 LB? > > > > Thanks, > > Tolga > > > ------------------------------ > Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information > of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for > the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or > distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly > prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender > immediately and then delete all copies, including any attachments. > ------------------------------ > -- > V3 mailing list > V3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3 > -- Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --000000000000fadc7005a30352a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You can distribute RTP, but its the SIP+R= TP that is really painful in combo.

If= the goal is for SIP+RTP to land on the same instance, what you want is ini= tial load balancing across the cluster for the SIP message. Once this lands= on a specific node in the cluster, you want subsequent SIP, and all of the= media, to land on that node. Because the RTP has a totally different 5-tup= le than then SIP, the L4 LB will not send it to the same instance.=C2=A0

We also would like decryption to happen at the edge = for the outer transport; obviously this doesnt happen with L4 load balancer= s, and that is a feature we want.

We also want mor= e advanced=C2=A0load balancing features that see into the application layer= - URL maps in the http world. We cannot do that with L4 load balancers.

Thx,
Jonathan R.

=



On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:20 PM Asveren, = Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wr= ote:

A basic question about how RIPT woul= d make things better compared to RTP in terms of making use of Public Cloud= Load-balancers:

=C2=A0

With RTP: One can use L4 LB distributing traff= ic to a Redundancy Group. The pain point is that LB is slow in detecting fa= ilures of Redundancy Group members.

With RIPT media: One can use HTTP LB distributing traffic a Redundancy Gro= up. I would think failure detection characteristics will be similar to L4 L= B and delayed failure detection issue would continue to be an issue.=

=C2=A0

In a nutshell, what would one gain by using a HTTP LB instead of L4 L= B?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Tolga=



<= hr> Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain informati= on of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary fo= r the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance= or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is stri= ctly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the = sender immediately and then delete all copies, including any attachments.
--
V3 mailing list
V3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v3


--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<= /a>
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charset="UTF-8" One of the big points of discussion has been whether RIPT runs ontop of H3, should use a new media transport that runs ontop of QUIC natively, supports webtransport, etc. If we go back to the original goal of this protocol - it is to make it easy to deploy real-time apps ontop of public cloud infrastructure which is heavily based on HTTP. This is a very pragmatic objective, based on the realities of what is deployed today, and the anticipated trajectory of those deployments. Today when one designs a web API, it doesnt require a particular version of HTTP. It runs over any version, but will work better ontop of higher versions, benefitting from whatever additional features have come into later versions of the protocol (e.g., compression). As such, I'd like to propose that we narrow the scope of RIPT to follow this pattern. RIPT should be specified in such a way that it can run on any version of the HTTP protocol, compatible all the way back to HTTP1. If it is the case that HTTP3 is being used, its design would facilitate sending media without HOL blocking. This would enable us to deploy and use RIPT today and mature the protocol, while also taking measurements of how well TCP works for media transport. As I'm sure many of you are aware, real-time media is often sent over TCP in practice - tunneled over HTTP for example - in order to deal with with firewalls, nats and other middleboxes. So let us not pretend like this would have no value without H3. What about webtransport? I'm proposing that RIPT doesnt use webtransport directly but rather waits for it to be made available as an http extension/enhancement (or whatever it ends up being), and then we can define a RIPT extension using it. I'd also suggest that we make the assumption that deployment of RIPT is being done by an entity (an enterprise or a saas provider) who has awareness of the environment in which it is being deployed and can thus be certain that H3 is there if they require it. For example, if this is being used for voip peering between an enterprise and a telco, the enterprise can elect to deploy ript only once they've upgraded their IP PBX to support RIPT and have purchased trunking services that support RIPT. Since RIPT is fundamentally one-hop - client to server - we dont need to worry about the unknowns of downstream elements outside of the sphere of control of this entity. This is another reason why I believe we should also keep the scope of the work narrowed to client-to-server media as well. This stance also addresses the question of media. RTP over QUIC may very well be a worthy goal to pursue, but it is not this. The fundamental assumption here is HTTP underneath. Thx, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D. jdrosen@jdrosen.net http://www.jdrosen.net --0000000000003cdf4f05a3039f5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One of the big points of discussion has been whether RIPT = runs ontop of H3, should use a new media transport that runs ontop of QUIC= =C2=A0natively, supports webtransport, etc.

If we go bac= k to the original goal of this protocol - it is to make it easy to deploy r= eal-time apps ontop of public cloud infrastructure which is heavily based o= n HTTP. This is a very pragmatic objective, based on the realities of what = is deployed today, and the anticipated trajectory of those deployments.

Today when one designs a web API, it doesnt=C2=A0requ= ire a particular version of HTTP. It runs over any version, but will work b= etter ontop of higher versions, benefitting from whatever additional featur= es have come into later versions of the protocol (e.g., compression).
=

As such, I'd like to propose that we narrow the sco= pe of RIPT to follow this pattern. RIPT should be specified in such a way t= hat it can run on any version of the HTTP protocol, compatible all the way = back to HTTP1. If it is the case that HTTP3 is being used, its design would= facilitate sending media without HOL blocking.=C2=A0

<= div>This would enable us to deploy and use RIPT today and mature the protoc= ol, while also taking measurements of how well TCP works for media transpor= t. As I'm sure many of you are aware, real-time media is often sent ove= r TCP in practice -=C2=A0 tunneled over HTTP for example - in order to deal= with with firewalls, nats and other middleboxes. So let us not pretend lik= e this would have no value without H3.

What about = webtransport? I'm proposing that RIPT doesnt use webtransport directly = but rather waits for it to be made available as an http extension/enhanceme= nt (or whatever it ends up being), and then we can define a RIPT extension = using it.

I'd also suggest that we make the as= sumption that deployment of RIPT is being done by an entity (an enterprise = or a saas provider) who has awareness of the environment in which it is bei= ng deployed and can thus be certain that H3 is there if they require it. Fo= r example, if this is being used for voip peering between an enterprise and= a telco, the enterprise can elect to deploy ript only once they've upg= raded their IP PBX to support RIPT and have purchased trunking services tha= t support RIPT.=C2=A0 Since RIPT is fundamentally one-hop - client to serve= r - we dont need to worry about the unknowns of downstream elements outside= of the sphere of control of this entity. This is another reason why I beli= eve we should also keep the scope of the work narrowed to client-to-server = media as well.

This stance also addresses the ques= tion of media. RTP over QUIC may very well be a worthy goal to pursue, but = it is not this. The fundamental assumption here is HTTP underneath.

Thx,
Jonathan R.

--
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