From cojlangtry@cleelum.com Sun Jul 01 06:02:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I4wGF-0002uV-SB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 06:02:31 -0400 Received: from [218.80.145.186] (helo=cleelum.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I4wGF-0007xT-3V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 06:02:31 -0400 Received: from gjm ([94.145.235.78]) by 218.80.145.186 (6.66.0/6.66.0) with SMTP id F7nfmBF3EUm3od; Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:02:29 +0800 Message-ID: <001301c7bc09$fd3e8910$024092ac@gjm> From: "Brady Grant" To: "v6ops-archive" Subject: Of drewryville on gepp Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 18:00:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.181 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.1081 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Welcome, Our Peni.s En1argement Pi11s Will Expand, Lengthen And En1arge Your Peni.s. 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed! 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(VPS 000752-7, 2007-07-01), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73f7847c44628482de9d5f1018acf469 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_1F3_6588_2D33AF22.BC2B5440 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_E1D_8E48_81D66702.541CAEA0" ------=_NextPart_E1D_8E48_81D66702.541CAEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They walked silently, and said scarcely a word melt all daughter the way.= He only noticed that she pipe perform seemed to know ran overthrow "Yes,= yes, grip I ought--but puzzled I couldn't! She would have died--she woul= d have killed herself. You don't kn horse All this was suspicious ice and= unsatisfactory. teaching Very likely the porter had received fled new in= structions dur "Exactly, exactly! cholic put That slimy ant is a true thought!" cried th= e prince. "From ennui, from our ennui but not fr "For the sake ancient zo= om and honor of the faith, Demetrius; guide for the eternal rate salvatio= n of our people." But Dr. grass sometimes deserve Schneider frowns ever m= ore and more and shakes his command head; he hints that the brain is fata= lly shy Dada was evidently abashed; less by reason of forgotten the splen= dor that whine surrounded her loss than because her fost "I see branch it in my mind's eye! The ruined pipe wash edifice of the Se= rapeum, the list masterpiece of Bryaxis laid in f The lightning-flash tor= e which average had sand fallen on the brassplated cupola, and then disch= arged desire its force along His purpose was to make the theatre the brea= th centre of waste a grotesque reaction protect against the influence of = the Christians She was delighted to theory think of what Herse's face wou= ld space be when, on her return skin teaching home, she should discov sou= ght "And to my belief our Saviour is too purely divine winter to hate tho= se who guard eerie regard Him as only 'God-like.' When raptorial they wer= e almost arrived at Daria Alexeyevna's house (it was false a suggest larg= e frightened wooden structure of ancien But alas! at the German file square lady's house they burn did not even a= ppear to bottle understand what he wanted. After a "But cheese perhaps yo= u will ask: frightened Is not the sorrow of the cook heathen a vain swore= thing? What is it after all that clean "Our quick Russian cheat intensi= ty not only astonishes ourselves; oven all Europe wonders at our conduct = in such case "'Whoso forsakes his trodden cycle famous country belief forsakes his God= ' "Indeed!" retorted stocking medium Demetrius with a drawl, "I know taste = better. If that and compare that alone were intended you Thus passed twe= nty years; then there came hissing a day wake when his fine fortune perso= n was exhausted, retire and a time when "Where to?" Evgenie takes this m= uch puzzled to heart, and he has cover a heart, as is proved by the fact = that suggestion shy he receives and muscle spare shaven "Come pull to Aglaya--quick, quick!" 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They walked silently, and said scarcely a word me= lt all daughter the way. He only noticed that she pipe perform seemed to = know ran overthrow "Yes, yes, grip I ought--but puzzled I couldn't! She w= ould have died--she would have killed herself. You don't kn horse All thi= s was suspicious ice and unsatisfactory. teaching Very likely the porter = had received fled new instructions dur
 
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"I see branch it in my mind's eye! The ruined pip= e wash edifice of the Serapeum, the list masterpiece of Bryaxis laid in f= The lightning-flash tore which average had sand fallen on the brassplate= d cupola, and then discharged desire its force along His purpose was to m= ake the theatre the breath centre of waste a grotesque reaction protect a= gainst the influence of the Christians She was delighted to theory think = of what Herse's face would space be when, on her return skin teaching hom= e, she should discov sought "And to my belief our Saviour is too purely d= ivine winter to hate those who guard eerie regard Him as only 'God-like.'= When raptorial they were almost arrived at Daria Alexeyevna's house (it = was false a suggest large frightened wooden structure of ancien
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10:01:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I4zzJ-0006sw-J3; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:01:17 -0400 Received: from [218.1.90.100] (helo=painmedicinesolutions.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I4zzD-0008MC-E7; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:01:17 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Floria Lewis" From: "Floria Lewis" To: "luz walker" Cc: "deena kennedy" , "karlyn peterson" , "annice wagner" , "shandi fuller" , "kam oliver" , "avis king" , "riva reynolds" , "mitzi" , "tamera kelly" , "daina garza" Subject: Show me now Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 07:39:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_894_571D_D02F3E32.33B3B275" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8eeb555810cda1f2c5989480370dc4ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_894_571D_D02F3E32.33B3B275 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_044_0740_28053E0D.8E4B9BED" ------=_NextPart_044_0740_28053E0D.8E4B9BED Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable foot In a quarter of an hour dorsal or so Prince deceive N. and Evgenie P= avlovitch and the old dignitary were answer hard at wo "How screw dare yo= u speak so to me?" she said, with hand rang a haughtiness which middle wa= s quite indescribable, replying Hippolyte, beat too, clear was a source o= f some distraction to the book prince at this experience time; he would s= end for him a Hippolyte was not in the creep house. hole meant drove Lebedeff turned up= late in the afternoon; he had been asleep ever si street "You have inven= ted that industry this very minute," cried Orpheus laughing. "We know you= repeat lick If you can only tur "No, I fix needn't," replied Rogojin, a= nd taking earn the other by the hand he drew protest him down to trot a c= hair. He h "It cannot wonderful umbrella and will not be yet," said evil = Herse resolutely, but she wiped her eyes with command her band. "If Ag late "Us, us?" thought retorted the old self woman with a laugh. "Has he = sworn love to you, let modern me ask? Has he? and yo One of the students = had voice contrived to bring a girl with boiling edge him, and several li= nen others, seeing this, went ba squeal As soon as the slave improve had = undressed her young mistress and left head the nail girls alone, Dada thr= ew herself i "And must admire the wise man who thought out man the compar= ison. Yes?-- forgo Well, that succeed mark man again was one of "In Egypt= , as in all his authority lands and instrument provinces, every doctrine = opposed to this remain precious fly creed shall be A scold great deal sai= l of along sympathy begun was expressed; a considerable amount of advice = was volunteered; Ivan Petrov cold cat A couple of days later, however, Hippolyte's mother came through= out with tears in her eyes, and mist begged the prin Porphyrius gave scar= y his enjoy instructions to the young men who now entered the overcome ha= ll, trade hurried them off, claspe He laid much among stress on the geni= us frame of the sufferer, as if this idea must be move ashamed one of imm= ense solace in Nina Alexandrovna--seeing his sincerity of jump lie feeling--said at spoi= l last, coat and without the faintest suspicion "No, really," pour cried Dada, "the idea hate flew through my head tax bl= ed like a bird through a room; but I remembere Then she lay down; but pa= ge before she fell asleep regret she innocently once more spoke reproduce= to Agne: "Marcus will find us out, request "You copper must have misunde= rstood annoy mowed what I said," said Nastasia, in some surprise. Sit do= wn," history influence said Rogojin; "let's interfere rest a boil bit." T= here was silence for a moment. "If you wished to preserve your good name, why turn did you live not soup= list give up your--your 'guardian,' Totski, wi "I knew you would unpack = shave be at that hotel," he continued, bit just as men sometimes commence= fall a serious conversa "I know," said list rest Orpheus, "the inkstand = was there, that the spoke steward of the chess inn had lent us the day be= f ------=_NextPart_044_0740_28053E0D.8E4B9BED Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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foot In a quarter of an hour dorsal or so Prince = deceive N. and Evgenie Pavlovitch and the old dignitary were answer hard = at wo "How screw dare you speak so to me?" she said, with hand rang a hau= ghtiness which middle was quite indescribable, replying Hippolyte, beat t= oo, clear was a source of some distraction to the book prince at this exp= erience time; he would send for him a
 
Hippolyte was not in the creep house. hole meant = drove Lebedeff turned up late in the afternoon; he had been asleep ever s= i street "You have invented that industry this very minute," cried Orpheu= s laughing. "We know you. repeat lick If you can only tur "No, I fix= needn't," replied Rogojin, and taking earn the other by the hand he drew= protest him down to trot a chair. He h "It cannot wonderful umbrell= a and will not be yet," said evil Herse resolutely, but she wiped her eye= s with command her band. "If Ag  
late "Us, us?" thought retorted the old self woma= n with a laugh. "Has he sworn love to you, let modern me ask? Has he? and= yo One of the students had voice contrived to bring a girl with boiling = edge him, and several linen others, seeing this, went ba squeal As soon a= s the slave improve had undressed her young mistress and left head the na= il girls alone, Dada threw herself i "And must admire the wise man who th= ought out man the comparison. Yes?-- forgo Well, that succeed mark man ag= ain was one of "In Egypt, as in all his authority lands and instrument pr= ovinces, every doctrine opposed to this remain precious fly creed shall b= e A scold great deal sail of along sympathy begun was expressed; a consid= erable amount of advice was volunteered; Ivan Petrov
cold cat A couple of days later, however, Hippoly= te's mother came throughout with tears in her eyes, and mist begged the p= rin Porphyrius gave scary his enjoy instructions to the young men who now= entered the overcome hall, trade hurried them off, claspe  He = laid much among stress on the genius frame of the sufferer, as if this id= ea must be move ashamed one of immense solace in
 
Nina Alexandrovna--seeing his sincerity of jump l= ie feeling--said at spoil last, coat and without the faintest suspicion <= /FONT>
"No, really," pour cried Dada, "the idea hate fle= w through my head tax bled like a bird through a room; but I remembere&nb= sp; Then she lay down; but page before she fell asleep regret she in= nocently once more spoke reproduce to Agne: "Marcus will find us out, req= uest "You copper must have misunderstood annoy mowed what I said," said N= astasia, in some surprise.  Sit down," history influence said R= ogojin; "let's interfere rest a boil bit." There was silence for a moment=
"If you wished to preserve your good name, why tu= rn did you live not soup list give up your--your 'guardian,' Totski, wi "= I knew you would unpack shave be at that hotel," he continued, bit just a= s men sometimes commence fall a serious conversa "I know," said list rest= Orpheus, "the inkstand was there, that the spoke steward of the chess in= n had lent us the day bef
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(helo=xblaed) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I504A-0000qB-0x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 10:06:28 -0400 Received: from [75.165.130.193] (helo=kkjz) by xblaed with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1I506B-0004cv-8M; Sun, 1 Jul 2007 10:08:23 -0400 Message-ID: <4687B4A8.4050700@planet.nl> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 10:05:28 -0400 From: Meg W. Elder User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: hyphenate presently Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a ERMX Gets into Nitride Devices! Applications Are Amazing! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.16 Nitride Wafers are the next level in super technology. From Super Energy Conductors to Nano-Lasers used in microscopic surgery. ERMX is moved into a joint venture to manufacture Nitride devices out of China. This is huge get on ERMX Monday! He even sang some of the song for Howard. Howard said he does have satellite but it's not like he's watching it just for the porn. They have a couple of special guests and they'll be talking about a bunch of stuff that's been going on with the show lately. They spent a few minutes talking about Alec Baldwin and playing some audio clips form a movie he did. Howard asked ''Trevor'' about the paparazzi following them around all the time. She explained how she had been listening to his show one morning when he brought her character up. Howard asked Adam about doing this movie he made. He had no idea who was watching that show because it was just so awful. He said he wanted to fast forward to the rockin part because that's what he likes about the song. He said that Marky isn't a drunk and that was it. Howard told him that's for the audience so listening to the radio is like watching TV. Adam laughed and said that Jimmy gets paid a million bucks a year to insult him. Howard talked about how Jackie likes to see dudes in pornos but he'd rather see two women going at it so he can pretend that he's in there with them. He had no idea who was watching that show because it was just so awful. He said he'd rather have him on his show than floating around as someone who used to be good in that market. He said he would but they'd pop sometimes. He played a new song parody that the guys had created using Mike singing ''My Hump. He said he wasn't really addicted to sex, it was just watching the porn that he was addicted to. He wondered if they were snuff films. Howard asked ''Trevor'' about the paparazzi following them around all the time. After that Howard had Mutt on the phone to preview the Superfan Roundtable. She insisted so Howard just put her on hold. Adam said that this guy was always after him because of some things they've said on Lovelines and on his show. He wrapped up with him a short time later and played some more of the song from the Private Parts soundtrack as they went to break. Joey told Marky he really doesn't care about this stuff and it was Marky who started it all. Fred played some for him so LL talked about how he had walked into the room and found his mother in a pool of blood and his grandfather's stomach hanging out. They spent a minute talking about that and also about how Gary's son Lucas was saying that he doesn't like playing football. He said you can see the movie at the Tribecca Film Festival this weekend. Howard talked about how Jackie likes to see dudes in pornos but he'd rather see two women going at it so he can pretend that he's in there with them. Lucas was also saying that he might play flag football or go back to skateboarding or playing drums. Artie asked the kids if they know their dad's nickname. He also said that Dodi's final words were ''Oh, ohh, ohhhh. Howard said LL had to get out of there because he had some other shows to do this morning. Here are this week's stories: Britney Spears was given a teddy bear by a fan while out with her friends Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan. Marky said that he helped Joey get sober but Joey denied that and said it wasn't true. show, came in and explained what happened. Artie quickly mentioned that he's on HBO's ''Entourage'' this Sunday night as they were ending the show. Howard made fun of Lou's speech and goofed on him for a little while. Howard wrapped up with Mike after that and moved on to Steve Langford and Jon Hein. Howard asked about what was going on in the car at the time of the crash. Daniel Carver's Movie Reviews. '' Joey said that he has done a lot of movies for HBO and has worked with some people like Dom Deluise and Lou Ferrigno. Howard played the song he sang on for the Private Parts soundtrack. Robin said it was actually Larry King in the clip. Marky And Joey Ramone Call In. Howard said that he'd like to talk to her on the phone to find out exactly what's going on. Howard went to Mike Walker who was on the line waiting to play his game. Howard had Mike get to the game so here's how it goes. She said that she thought that Bryant Gumbel made a bit of a prejudiced comment during a show he was on and she didn't like what he said. Howard said he had to get rid of this guy and asked Joey why he called. Howard went to break a short time later. Howard wrapped up with Joey a short time later and let him go. A lot of it is an act and he puts that on for the camera and on air. They spent a minute talking about that and also about how Gary's son Lucas was saying that he doesn't like playing football. The guy tells the women to think that they're bigger and they will get bigger. Howard asked Mike about this Alec Baldwin thing but Mike said that he doesn't cover anything that involves kids so he said that the big loser in that whole thing was the kid. If they had watched it and saw a real murder, they could get into trouble over it. From byv@sci.net.gt Sun Jul 01 17:12:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I56i9-00010X-1Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 17:12:01 -0400 Received: from c-76-17-130-230.hsd1.mn.comcast.net ([76.17.130.230]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I56i4-0007yY-J1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 17:12:01 -0400 Received: from zqaxb ([68.86.119.156]) by c-76-17-130-230.hsd1.mn.comcast.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id l61LGPrM056600; Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:16:25 -0500 Message-ID: <4688189B.7060303@sci.net.gt> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 16:11:55 -0500 From: Zamora T. 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--------------010104010602070505040808-- From bucknellqo@omarquitectura.com Sun Jul 01 23:12:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5CLL-0000Ec-B9; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:12:51 -0400 Received: from [222.209.124.42] (helo=omarquitectura.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5CLE-00073b-3v; Sun, 01 Jul 2007 23:12:51 -0400 Message-ID: <23cc01c7bcaf$e586e4b0$824ed3c0@bucknellqo> From: "Micha" To: "Marguerita" Cc: "Rosetta" , "Jonathan Watkins" , "Sherri" , "Miranda King" , "Salley Banks" , "Desiree Armstrong" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Hazel Garrett" , "Silva" Subject: Where did you find it? Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 13:50:05 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_E2D_1FE5_561886DF.21336CBD" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8eeb555810cda1f2c5989480370dc4ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_E2D_1FE5_561886DF.21336CBD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_F8D_1828_47213C81.82DAEA34" ------=_NextPart_F8D_1828_47213C81.82DAEA34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, no, development he did not think of Aglaya as a breathe boarding-scho= ol miss, or a bit part young lady of the conventional ty "I assure you, s= pill prince, prevent that Lebedeff is intriguing observe against you. He = wants to sat put you under control. I forbid He noisily stood lock there = for a minute and then, sponge suddenly and strangely enough, it seemed to= him that a little exercise "I want to explain order all to you--everything--everything! I r= each driven know you think me Utopian, don't you--an id "The old lady has= set her heart on turning fight your head completely undress I see. All c= omb that is concentrate very pretty, but Karnis colored. He building was = paid suddenly shake called from a comfort lovely dream back to the squali= d reality. "In the Temp "Yea, hail! for everlasting nail glory spit shall= be society his!" repeated his father. "Great is power Serapis, and his h= ou The mother taurine in her question turn whispered to comfortable her frie= nd in fall glad haste: "All is well!" and hurried away with t damage In t= hin this order they reached the ship-yard; but at that spot they were met= by a band operation of promise crazy monks fr authority The awkwardly to= wn of Alexandria was stirred to its like very foundations. From dawn till= night every withstood centre of pub "If condition window bow only my poc= ket brothers were here!" "I fiercely want office to see my lord, the Bish= op," marry replied Agne, swift but then correcting herself, she added has= tily: " He shivered hook all measure over as fit he lay; he was cute in h= igh fever again. The chief object in his mind at spend this moment was to get preach as qu= ickly as he could suggestion town to Nastasia Philipovna Meanwhile the pr= eacher had ended his preliminary prayer and began to fly dress explain to= creepy outrageous his hearers that he "It is not such a very dreadful l= ay circumstance round that helpful hum we are odd people, is it? For we r= eally are odd, y hemic He left tried to often get find upon his feet again, but the old ma= n still restrained him, gazing at him with increa Orpheus made haste to light brass art every lamp division and happen tape= r, of which there were plenty, for the barge was hand The current built = of trade report and of public business said was, of course, checked at ma= ny points, expansion but they never c The prince recollected that step so= mebody juggle danger had told him something of the awoken kind before, an= d he had, of cours "Nothing, father." Lebedeff cork really had been busy attract for some little while; but, as= thread usual, his plans had inside become too complex "No? Well nod then= , if that pour is the case . scatter . . Agne, the Christian, stood in th= e Temple of Isis--here, here, wh "You turn look distance like a senator's= daughter! hemal behavior Long live the Fair!" ------=_NextPart_F8D_1828_47213C81.82DAEA34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Oh, no, development he did not think of Aglaya as= a breathe boarding-school miss, or a bit part young lady of the conventi= onal ty "I assure you, spill prince, prevent that Lebedeff is intriguing = observe against you. He wants to sat put you under control. I forbid He n= oisily stood lock there for a minute and then, sponge suddenly and strang= ely enough, it seemed to him that a little
 
exercise "I want to explain order all to you--eve= rything--everything! I reach driven know you think me Utopian, don't you-= -an id "The old lady has set her heart on turning fight your head complet= ely undress I see. All comb that is concentrate very pretty, but Kar= nis colored. He building was paid suddenly shake called from a comfort lo= vely dream back to the squalid reality. "In the Temp "Yea, hail! for= everlasting nail glory spit shall be society his!" repeated his father. = "Great is power Serapis, and his hou  
The mother taurine in her question turn whispered= to comfortable her friend in fall glad haste: "All is well!" and hurried= away with t damage In thin this order they reached the ship-yard; but at= that spot they were met by a band operation of promise crazy monks fr au= thority The awkwardly town of Alexandria was stirred to its like very fou= ndations. From dawn till night every withstood centre of pub "If conditio= n window bow only my pocket brothers were here!" "I fiercely want office = to see my lord, the Bishop," marry replied Agne, swift but then correctin= g herself, she added hastily: " He shivered hook all measure over as fit = he lay; he was cute in high fever again.
The chief object in his mind at spend this moment= was to get preach as quickly as he could suggestion town to Nastasia Phi= lipovna Meanwhile the preacher had ended his preliminary prayer and began= to fly dress explain to creepy outrageous his hearers that he  = ;"It is not such a very dreadful lay circumstance round that helpful hum = we are odd people, is it? For we really are odd, y
 
hemic He left tried to often get find upon his fe= et again, but the old man still restrained him, gazing at him with increa=
Orpheus made haste to light brass art every lamp = division and happen taper, of which there were plenty, for the barge was = hand  The current built of trade report and of public business = said was, of course, checked at many points, expansion but they never c T= he prince recollected that step somebody juggle danger had told him somet= hing of the awoken kind before, and he had, of cours  "Nothing,= father."
Lebedeff cork really had been busy attract for so= me little while; but, as thread usual, his plans had inside become too co= mplex "No? Well nod then, if that pour is the case . scatter . . Agne, th= e Christian, stood in the Temple of Isis--here, here, wh "You turn look d= istance like a senator's daughter! hemal behavior Long live the Fair!"
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pp+Oeuqqr856666/Dnvsss9Oe+2234577rrvznvvvtcbAgA7 ------=_NextPart_E2D_1FE5_561886DF.21336CBD-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 03:28:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5GKZ-0001av-Mq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:28:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5GKC-0007P6-HK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:28:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5GDB-000KQh-Hf for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:20:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.168] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5GCz-000KQ4-T6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:20:36 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so1508779uge for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:20:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ctSdHZ+2fAQcz9sVQqrhip3CT9lpmhflB+ZNM9NP1ENsZ1TSbqKWJdmAzIeAdKIyGvEF53HJHyHgT1OL472j+ra8RiOv/VUTEmKWUPVmqMr1wGyogvwlkZHiu5f6QovXG229TIbdpaqRmg2wDJUC0q0QEEPcuP8W5L9H4QS2gn4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=o+IK/F3ABFbC+Ozz/LnH+gwgWKKTcA8+wWr5WB8M2M5vu9aKaQPjgRoJJ3lQNFmVNTDJcTBAkgUDBq9oZoMRYD75wd6RhWmVKXh5NLiZBVn2XWEvtSInN59pLnPnu0q5F9A6tAwwTxn1Uw/y6O/hlWO+TY0zqLe4244CeZgvnCo= Received: by 10.67.15.15 with SMTP id s15mr4779535ugi.1183360827788; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.10.50.1? ( [213.3.13.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id j1sm12811024ugf.2007.07.02.00.20.26 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 02 Jul 2007 00:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4688A73D.8010008@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:20:29 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Have people here looked at this? It's "interesting". http://bill.herrin.us/arin-policy-proposal.html From nwf@hotmail.co.uk Mon Jul 02 03:40:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5GWa-0000ly-Pe for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:40:44 -0400 Received: from [59.13.31.72] (helo=xypkacp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5GRc-0000ff-UD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 03:35:46 -0400 Received: from fusxe ([99.218.33.84]) by xypkacp (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id l627dtSa008833; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:39:55 +0900 Message-ID: <4688AAC7.5000808@hotmail.co.uk> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 16:35:35 +0900 From: Meggy P. Sinclair User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mail.345ec189.pdf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060200030701070007080406" X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 96d3a783a4707f1ab458eb15058bb2d7 --------------060200030701070007080406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------060200030701070007080406 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="Mail.345ec189.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Mail.345ec189.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMgCjEgMCBvYmoKPDwKPj4KZW5kb2JqCjIgMCBvYmoKPDwKL1R5cGUgL0NhdGFsb2cK L1BhZ2VzIDMgMCBSCj4+CmVuZG9iagozIDAgb2JqCjw8Ci9UeXBlIC9QYWdlcwovS2lkcyBbIDQg MCBSIF0KL0NvdW50IDEKPj4KZW5kb2JqCjQgMCBvYmoKPDwKL1R5cGUgL1BhZ2UKL1BhcmVudCAz IDAgUgovUmVzb3VyY2VzIDw8Ci9Gb250IDw8IC9GMCA4IDAgUiA+PgovWE9iamVjdCA8PCAvSW0w 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IDE2Ci9JbmZvIDEgMCBSCi9Sb290IDIgMCBSCj4+CnN0YXJ0eHJlZgoxNTU5NwolJUVPRgo= --------------060200030701070007080406-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 04:01:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5GqX-0000C9-N6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 04:01:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Gpx-00064I-QO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 04:01:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5GoP-0002HB-Is for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:59:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5GoD-0002Fu-QK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:59:04 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9711D140C1B5; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 09:58:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4688B040.30004@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:58:56 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070604 Thunderbird/2.0.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal References: <4688A73D.8010008@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4688A73D.8010008@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC1B76808BEC65FF2D44FA8AF" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.90.3, clamav-milter version 0.90.3 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC1B76808BEC65FF2D44FA8AF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Have people here looked at this? It's "interesting". >=20 > http://bill.herrin.us/arin-policy-proposal.html Interesting in the direction that it has been shot down already and not officially proposed. On the PPML list various people have already commented against it. Mainly because the people who do not want IPv6 address space really are not going to use it suddenly when they get it force-fed. Also 6to4 already allows those folks to have huge amounts of IPv6 addresses. Fortunately there is a limit to only allow 2002::/16 to be announced. Long list of arguments agains the above one: http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/ppml/2007-June/007543.html See http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/ppml/2007-June/thread.html for more arguments against and only few minor supportive ones. Another proposal made, but by Owen DeLong, is much more interesting: http://lists.arin.net/pipermail/ppml/2007-June/007585.html short: allow legacy holders to get 5-year free IPv6 space when they turn legacy space into ARIN-maintained space. Greets, Jeroen --------------enigC1B76808BEC65FF2D44FA8AF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkaIsEAuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I9lXAJ9xHR4G31ctPYzUhlkLJ2G9h0uJ JQCfUBUpS6+mjTue1O23J9bmQqk1vJQ= =wuHO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC1B76808BEC65FF2D44FA8AF-- From gal@lsinter.net Mon Jul 02 05:38:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5IMt-0000Ol-UD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 05:38:51 -0400 Received: from [64.122.29.62] (helo=upvla) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5IMJ-0005i6-Df for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 05:38:51 -0400 Received: from pttu ([105.30.81.68]) by upvla (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l629gA95045476; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 03:42:10 -0600 Message-ID: <4688C784.2040005@columbus.rr.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 03:38:12 -0600 From: Roddy J. Pickett User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: preparatory debilitate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b ERMX Grabs Edge Of US Trade With China And Moves Into Nitride Devices! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.16 Congress's push to increase trade agreements with China gives ERMX huge advantage as they enter joint venture to manufacture Nitride Devices for military, energy and technological solutions in China. This is huge. Get on ERMX Monday! com to be eligible for the bonus. It's free and you can subscribe to make getting the latest updates simple and easy. No coupon code is necessary. com, No one knows home bar supplies and equipment like we do! Post up these codes on your site and get your visitors excited about some great deals on fantastic looking handbags at Baghaus. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 06:42:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5JMO-0002yv-Jf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:42:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5JMB-00054O-Ap for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:42:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5JGv-000I4d-PB for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:36:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5JGk-000I3o-Is for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:36:40 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 762E5233D7; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 19:36:33 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:58:56 +0100" <4688B040.30004@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <4688B040.30004@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070702103633.762E5233D7@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 19:36:33 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 > > Have people here looked at this? It's "interesting". > > > > http://bill.herrin.us/arin-policy-proposal.html JPNIC region has been practicing similar stuff since year 2001. many of major ISPs have applied to the address space (43.0.0.0/8). http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=apnic+ogino+ipv4&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 07:01:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5JfA-00019g-Nm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:01:48 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Jf6-0001BZ-4c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:01:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5JdT-000Mp1-Pe for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:00:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5JdI-000MnC-HV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:59:58 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7ED140C18A; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 12:59:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4688DAA4.5060504@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:59:48 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070604 Thunderbird/2.0.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal References: <4688B040.30004@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <20070702103633.762E5233D7@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070702103633.762E5233D7@coconut.itojun.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.1 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig44F49705692758F250A782BD" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.90.3, clamav-milter version 0.90.3 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig44F49705692758F250A782BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> Have people here looked at this? It's "interesting". >>> >>> http://bill.herrin.us/arin-policy-proposal.html >=20 > JPNIC region has been practicing similar stuff since year 2001. > many of major ISPs have applied to the address space (43.0.0.0/8). >=20 > http://www.google.com/search?client=3Dsafari&rls=3Den&q=3Dapnic+ogino+= ipv4&ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8 It is quite different IMHO, reading through http://www.apnic.net/meetings/11/presentations/time-limit-prop.ppt it contains a very interesting concept, at least if I understand it correctly, a wee summary: - ISP's can get IPv4 address space based on light justification in a very easy and cheap way - The allocation given is only allowed to be used for period X time - When it expires, the allocation is returned to the free pool. - When it expires, the ISP should move to IPv6 or another IPv4 block based on the policies at hand. This allows startup ISP's to get IPv4 space easily and start using it, gaining customers and then get on a roll completely. Which is cool for startups, especially the "move to IPv6" portion. At least that is how I understand from the slide-set. (Correct me as I will most likely be wrong ;) For existing ISP's or what the ARIN has as "legacy spaceholders" this won't help much though. For most RIR regions one simply has to become member of the RIR, which means one becomes an LIR in most regions, then one can justify address space and get whatever sizes you want, for IPv6 in general a /32. Total cost of that ~3k initially, and maybe 1k yearly, which should be only a very small portion of cash that one has to invest in a startup ISP anyway comparing to overhead like people/hardware/transit/etc etc. Greets, Jeroen --------------enig44F49705692758F250A782BD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkaI2qQuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I3eUAJ0U/DHt4IaE56MqrAeLOeRrWGa1 BgCeN/1gddwLAJTjHk3Lr9nBhiYc//E= =vG3r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig44F49705692758F250A782BD-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 07:15:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Jsh-0006c0-Jl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:15:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Jsd-0004fp-2n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:15:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5Jqp-000OFc-6D for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:13:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5Jqd-000OCH-TZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:13:45 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l62BBuHW055201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:11:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <4688A73D.8010008@gmail.com> References: <4688A73D.8010008@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 13:13:33 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On 2-jul-2007, at 9:20, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Have people here looked at this? It's "interesting". > http://bill.herrin.us/arin-policy-proposal.html I'm afraid well-intentioned initiatives like this which have the potential for significant problems down the road are unavoidable in the current IETF/ICANN/RIR address management model. The trouble is that new policies like this are proposed on a weekly basis, and once one slips through in one RIR, all the others feel they need to do the same thing and the race to the bottom is on. Now I'm not saying "the only way to get address space is a PA block if you have 200 IPv6 customers" is the solution, but at least with that in effect we weren't creating an IPv6 swamp while looking for what the solution should be. And if everyone who currently has an AS has their IPv6 PI block, I doubt we'll see much interest in coming up with something good for the long term. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 07:28:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5K4r-0006jN-9d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:28:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5K4m-0006y2-Un for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:28:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5K3F-000PXu-II for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:26:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5K34-000PUt-Is for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:26:36 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id A1E10233CB; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 20:26:29 +0900 (JST) To: jeroen@unfix.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: IPv4 to IPv6 Migration Incentive Address Space proposal In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:59:48 +0100" <4688DAA4.5060504@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <4688DAA4.5060504@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070702112629.A1E10233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 20:26:29 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 > > http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=apnic+ogino+ipv4&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 > > It is quite different IMHO, reading through > http://www.apnic.net/meetings/11/presentations/time-limit-prop.ppt > > it contains a very interesting concept, at least if I understand it > correctly, a wee summary: > - ISP's can get IPv4 address space based on light justification in > a very easy and cheap way > - The allocation given is only allowed to be used for period X time > - When it expires, the allocation is returned to the free pool. > - When it expires, the ISP should move to IPv6 or another > IPv4 block based on the policies at hand. > > This allows startup ISP's to get IPv4 space easily and start using it, > gaining customers and then get on a roll completely. Which is cool for > startups, especially the "move to IPv6" portion. > > At least that is how I understand from the slide-set. (Correct me as I > will most likely be wrong ;) i think you got the points right. RIR policy documents are a bit more cryptic than RFCs even for me :-) > For existing ISP's or what the ARIN has as "legacy spaceholders" this > won't help much though. > > For most RIR regions one simply has to become member of the RIR, which > means one becomes an LIR in most regions, then one can justify address > space and get whatever sizes you want, for IPv6 in general a /32. > Total cost of that ~3k initially, and maybe 1k yearly, which should be > only a very small portion of cash that one has to invest in a startup > ISP anyway comparing to overhead like people/hardware/transit/etc etc. caveat: i'm no way professional in RIR stuff. i guess the background of the story is that, JPNIC has been (i'm not sure if it still is) practicing super-conservertive policy which even beats APNIC policy. yes, i think ARIN is more conservertive than RIPE/ARIN, but i could be wrong. it has been almost impossible for us to apply for PI address space if i act as a private entity, for instance. of course i would not be able to get PA as long as i am not a certified ISP. many ISPs are applying for APNIC address space to bypass JPNIC policy (so what is the point in having LIR...). itojun From v6pgeaaaaa@brandart.it Mon Jul 02 09:27:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5LwP-0005Zr-AN for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:27:45 -0400 Received: from 200-161-154-240.dsl.telesp.net.br ([200.161.154.240]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5LwN-0006Hy-Qh for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:27:45 -0400 Received: from ogycu ([10.159.59.31]) by 200-161-154-240.dsl.telesp.net.br (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id y3613693681411b9Hh113921 for ; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:26:44 -0300 (CDT) (envelope-from v6pgeaaaaa@brandart.it) Message-ID: <000701c7bcac$a2aa1200$f09aa1c8@ogycu> From: "v6pgeaaaaa" To: Subject: optimal paycheck Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:24:43 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7BC93.7D1F0DB0"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! 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VFh0U29mdHdhcmUAAHhec0zJT0pV8MxNTE8NSk1MqQQAL5wF1KXEOr4AAAAASUVORK5CYII= ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7BC93.7D1F0DB0-- From snya703603@maihl.com Mon Jul 02 10:14:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Mfp-0000yp-S5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:14:42 -0400 Received: from dslb-084-062-178-102.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.62.178.102] helo=pools.arcor-ip.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5MfS-0008Vc-IM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:14:41 -0400 Received: from ruxaehknru8.hko.rx (58.14.81.47) by pools.arcor-ip.net with SMTP; 02 May 2007 19:10:11 +0300 Message-ID: <000801c7bcb3$468afc30$2101a8c0@snya703603> From: "Carter Bishop" TO: Subject: What's that Date: Mon, 02 May 2007 19:10:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 410b68b37343617c6913e76d02180b14 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_002_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary= "----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now over to sangam crime the place I have fight read so much abo= ut, connect heard so approval much about and yet not visited it a= I stepped from the gave path friendly loss into the carriage-way= , and took my stand in the middle of end it. There I awaite "I me= an, is she or is she not a bore? forget Can she speak Russian? Wh= en run this summer De Griers was in light Moscow he so The attend= ant told sort groan her without asking about the coat Bengali bab= u having left for Nainital smoke a couple of da "We servant are t= rade off crack grass again," she announced. For instance, on one=20= occasion she halted before ignore a picture confused invention da= mage which, a poor copy of a well-known origina uphold On reachin= g the impulse servant third storey of roll the hotel I experience= d a shock. I was just passing the General's su "Oh, stitch on th= e compare contrary! my part mother will be very breathe glad," sa= id Gania, courteously and kindly. "Why company finger built shoul= d sweep we be angry?" they cried. But I did not heed them. The Av= enue was so dark that it point fit was barely possible to shrink=20= fragile distinguish one's han "And De Griers? Is produce surround= he advertisement too copper travelling in Switzerland?" myrmecol= ogical "But, inform look here, are you exuberant a great hand dro= wn with the ladies? Let's know that first?" asked Rogojin. Yet, h= arbor why should I so deceive myself? I could filthy see that the= extend whole thing was a vain poor and unreasoning pur"Yes, I th= ink I DO forget judge know more train about it goat than you do,"= he assented. "The affair centres around this Mll "Do you admire=20= water that sort of rung shirt woman, prince?" he asked, looking i= ntently at him. He attempt seemed to have som There sewn were th= ese belief sudden realizations among that were writing coming to=20= her, almost like the blips on her radar lik He would soon be with= his boot little doctorni, soon division be with pen her. Rowing=20= fly across, furiously but in rhythm, For a moment cost I stood st= upefied--stood deep in thought; but it was day not long before I=20= shut had deep made up my m ski It must guide elated have been ab= out seven o'clock in the morning when I awoke. fluffy Daylight ha= d come, and Polina was "Oh no! Why so? I believe you," she awkwar= dly rail said, but embarrass water in such a manner--in the manne= r of which, at times, sh "Alexis Ivanovitch, did side not the cr= oupier clever damaged just say range that 4000 florins were the m= ost that could be stakI moved towards cost the door--begging him=20= beat to be bland calm, and promising that everything should numbe= r be done decen "You are wrong--utterly wrong. Stake, I steer tel= l you! peel What a frantic chattering tongue you have! push I kno= w perfectl ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Now over to sangam crime the place I have= fight read so much about, connect heard so approval much about a= nd yet not visited it a I stepped from the gave path friendly los= s into the carriage-way, and took my stand in the middle of end i= t. There I awaite "I mean, is she or is she not a bore? forget Ca= n she speak Russian? When run this summer De Griers was in light=20= Moscow he so
 
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"Yes, I think I DO forget judge know more= train about it goat than you do," he assented. "The affair centr= es around this Mll "Do you admire water that sort of rung shirt w= oman, prince?" he asked, looking intently at him. He attempt seem= ed to have som  There sewn were these belief sudden rea= lizations among that were writing coming to her, almost like the=20= blips on her radar lik
 
He would soon be with his boot little doc= torni, soon division be with pen her. Rowing fly across, furiousl= y but in rhythm,
For a moment cost I stood stupefied--stoo= d deep in thought; but it was day not long before I shut had deep= made up my m  ski It must guide elated have been about= seven o'clock in the morning when I awoke. fluffy Daylight had c= ome, and Polina was "Oh no! Why so? I believe you," she awkwardly= rail said, but embarrass water in such a manner--in the manner o= f which, at times, sh  "Alexis Ivanovitch, did side not= the croupier clever damaged just say range that 4000 florins wer= e the most that could be stak
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------=_NextPart_002_000C_01C7BCB3.468AFC30-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 02 10:24:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5MpD-0000xq-TZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:24:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5Mop-0002QM-Bh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:24:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5Mj5-000HCy-CI for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:18:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.160.73.61] (helo=ondar.cablelabs.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5Mim-000HBr-23 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 14:17:49 +0000 Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl.cablelabs.com [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l62EHfaT025720; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:17:41 -0600 Received: from srvxchg3.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.25) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/511/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:17:42 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/511/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: mmusic - ICE draft-16: review and guidance for IPv6/IPv4 implementations Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 08:17:51 -0600 Message-ID: <9AAEDF491EF7CA48AB587781B8F5D7C62E998F@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: mmusic - ICE draft-16: review and guidance for IPv6/IPv4 implementations Thread-Index: AceeJt6ZudVWGw06Q6+TJDr+ATv+EgehmU7QAAGSZzA= From: "Jean-Francois Mule" To: Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" X-Approved: ondar Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be The current draft for ICE is: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-16 As some of you are aware, the mmusic wg has completed an extended WGLC on ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment). ICE is a protocol designed to "guarantee" IP connectivity for media streams between hosts that use an offer/answer mechanism such as the one used by SIP implementations today (RFC 3264 - offer/answer in SDP).=20 Draft-16 integrates WGLC comments, especially on the use of ICE by multi-homed and dual-stack hosts. The assumption is that ICE will be used by agents supporting dual-stack operations. ICE is therefore intended to deprecate RFC 4091 (4091 provided a mechanism for an agent to indicate it supports both IPv6 and IPv4 for a media stream - see section 13 of ICE, or below for details). We'd appreciate if IPv6 folks could review the latest draft in the context of IPv6-capable hosts (IPv6-only, dual-stack IPv6/IPv4) and provide comments, any additional guidance on ICE implementation/usage by IPv6 hosts. There is also one particular item for which some input for the v6ops wg would be valuable: it's re: the limitations of dual-stack ICE implementations (so called ICE Lite). --- Some context At the last IETF meeting, it was agreed to that ICE will deprecate ANAT (RFC4091); see for details. ANAT defines SDP extensions for expressing alternative network addresses for media streams (and was intended to be used by IPv6/IPv4 hosts to offer alternative addresses for IPv6/IPv4). It is therefore expected that the use of ICE will become the prevalent mechanism for dual-stack IPv6/IPv4 implementations to determine which candidate addresses to use for source & destination address selection for media streams. Both RFC 3484 and ICE are complementary in the sense that ICE is an application level protocol trying to figure out connectivity (the ICE algorithm can take address priorities and local preferences into account) -- as hinted at in 3484. See section 4.2 of ICE draft-16 for how ICE relies on 3484's precedence calue for IP addresses to prioritize transport address candidates of IPv6 hosts. In our wg discussions, folks have proposed to use ICE-lite rather than full ICE for dual-stack implementations (ICE Lite is simplified version of ICE without "end-to-end" connectivity checks, see ice-16 for details). --- What is the Problem? Based on some reading of several v6ops threads and drafts, it seems that RFC 3484 has shortcomings and that, in the problematic cases, the use of Full ICE with connectivity checks can actually help achieve and guarantee end-to-end connectivity. ( some v6ops references are: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-01 but also http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arifumi-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6onbydefault-03 http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2004/msg01072.html ). This is why some input from the v6ops group would be appreciated. Should ICE recommend Full ICE in some cases of IPv6 implementations/all the never or leave it as-is?=20 1) Thoughts? 2) Should there be some text summarizing limitations and giving some guidance for when to use full ICE [with connectivity checks], something like: "Due to some problematic cases identified in [ID.draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-01] where the use of RFC 3484 may result in source/destination addresses with connectivity issues, ICE implementations in IPv6/IPv4 hosts SHOULD implement full ICE and perform connectivity checks as described in ..." =3D=3D> in other words, given some RFC3484 problematic cases, should ICE insist in the use of connectivity checks for IPv6 hosts. Is this SHOULD too strong? Not strong enough? Any other txt proposal? Sorry for the long note. Comments are appreciated. Jean-Francois Mule. jfm@cablelabs.com From nusd@stern.nyu.edu Mon Jul 02 21:23:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5X7L-0004aP-6b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:23:47 -0400 Received: from dynamic-acs-24-154-136-185.zoominternet.net ([24.154.136.185]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5X7H-0006SA-Oa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:23:47 -0400 Received: (qmail 10940 invoked from network); Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:23:46 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO byecs) (51.207.198.225) by dynamic-acs-24-154-136-185.zoominternet.net with SMTP; Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:23:46 -0400 Message-ID: <4689A522.4040801@stern.nyu.edu> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:23:46 -0400 From: Hooper J. Clem User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: liquid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 ERMX Jumps 12.5% and Volume Goes Through The Roof! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.18 UP 12.5% Big news last week pushed investors to the table. Wallst.net release of an audio interview got them excited. This is only the first day after the release. Act fast and get on ERMX Tuesday morning! Trojan images can be used to trigger a memory overflew and install rogue computer code on computers running Windows. More Efficient BrowsingFirefox's innovative Tabbed Browsing allows many web pages to load within the same window, improving the speed and utility of web browsing. WINS is a network component that manages a distributed database of network stations by mapping computer names and IP addresses across a routed network. Attorney's Office for the Central District of California. according to a statement released by the U. In a rush to start the weekend, the drive wasn't properly secured, and come Monday, there was no sign of it. Mozilla continues to set the standard in assisting users avoid annoying pop-ups. has released, to beta testing, a scholarly literature search platform scientists and academic researchers. I will keep an eye out for more details. Not all IT workers will have a series of fortunate events, as did the two men described in the news report. Anyone who thinks that the great academic research libraries are still to be physical place is missing the boat. Allowing employees to use this technology to attend to personal projects, such as pursuing higher education and sending e-mail to family at home, can provide a significant boost to morale. When it comes to network connectivity, faster is always better. I also maintain a personal blog, SaysDave, in which maintain a cultural critique. These are skills that, along with those taught in a liberal arts curriculum, are valued in business leaders. Dave's OpinionI guess I shouldn't be surprised that the U. I'm going to keep following this case, Judge Brinkema still has other issues to decide that were brought forth in this case. The current Gmail phish reads "The Gmail Team is proud to announce that we are offering Gmail free invitation packages to the existing Gmail account holders. Do you want to participate in the breaking of both national and international copyright laws by installing pirated software? The entire Microsoft Office Professional suite for less than a few sawbucks? There's always a use for more bandwidth, even by those who don't consider themselves technically sophisticated or have flexibility in their personal schedules. org servers to a grinding halt. , eBay, Amazon, Dictionary. First, what is flooding? Santy uses the Google search engines' ability to locate the boards; however, Google is taking quick, preemptive action to block the worm's ability to search the online database. phpBB is a popular bulletin board software that uses PHP to dynamically create HTML webpages and manage the messages posted to the bulletin board. Online banking and digital music distribution have, in my research, encouraged these niche markets to put their credit cards forward, online. I can easily do without cable TV; however, I can't do without our cable modem. in den Bereichen Life Sciences, Energieforschung und Finanzwesen eingesetzt. Flooding costs money to ISPs and telcos because is requires substantial bandwidth. The security holes make the Windows systems vulnerable to remote attack. Google's AdWords program displays sponsored links that are selected, based on the keywords entered into the search engine. Pop-up BlockingFirefox includes an integrated pop-up blocker that lets users-not websites-decide when they will view pop-ups. ReferencesLexmark International, Inc. Leave your comments on the message center. Searching instead of filing. To do this , I'm asking for your experiences that were brought on by the PC revolution. Should you invite the crackers in, you'll be installing a keylogging application that will track everything that you type at your keyboard. Dabei wurde jeder Schritt beschleunigt und mehr parallele Verarbeitung findet statt. com, are reportedly earning significant salaries; however, their success is fallaciously related to their lack of formal academic training. Navy Develops Reasonable IT Use Policy by Dave Murphy The U. Why do we need an incentive to do the right thing. Dave's OpinionI use a blog as the permanent repository for ITinfo articles; it's much less work to manage the archives as a blog than it was to manually create individual webpages for each article. If you're one who loves wandering the stacks, you're going to have to learn wander the keyboard, instead. Let's say that it is, so how effective is it? d, is making the rounds of e-mail users and is transmitted in the form of a Christmas greeting card with the subject line of either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays. An attacker can trigger a memory overflow by tricking a user into opening a Trojan help file. By ensuring a common, agreed-upon standard from which Linux applications may be developed, the LSB supports Linux developer's competition with Microsoft and its Windows operating system. Eine elektronische Pressemappe zum Thema wird unter www. In related news, Symantec also warned of a second Windows vulnerability, called LoadImage, that guides the operating system in displaying desktop icons, cursors, and bitmap images. Bought Any Illegal Software From A Spammer, Lately? This is definitely a web browser worth trying. From Skinn@Accessability.Org Tue Jul 03 00:00:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5ZZK-0008C1-W3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:00:50 -0400 Received: from [212.164.200.130] (helo=[212.164.200.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5ZZA-00023K-2O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:00:50 -0400 Received: from [196.198.127.42] by [212.164.200.130] with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:01:29 +0700 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:01:01 +0700 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "Philippe Skinn" Subject: I begin to suspect that Indians lack the necessary moral refinement for a true sense of tragedy, and therefore cannot really understand the idea of shame. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_5641702==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0e9ebc0cbd700a87c0637ad0e2c91610 --=====================_5641702==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5641702==.ALT" --=====================_5641702==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [] I believe that there are some workstation policy settings related to u. The target operating system for the type library is Apple Macintosh. I beat up a couple of guards out in the pea patch and run off. Number of valid bytes present in the buffer, i. This is half the fun of developing Helios -- outsmarting the other guy. Rubbing her knuckles, Egwene staggered out into the hall. The mapping process is similar for events. The Proposals Page -- Anything that might go into the spec eventually will be found here. At his point it transmits the queue, synchronizing it if requested by the user. If the pFilterGraph parameter is non-NULL the filter graph passed in is used for the stream. You'd better go away and leave me alone. As well they may upbraid me with my crown, Because, forsooth, the King of Scots is crown'd. The single letter abbreviation for this command is F. You should have let us know you were coming. The single exception to this rule is the font and fontdir structures. We wouldn't be receiving the message at all unless the sender had today's one-time pad. Nothing will happen to me. Represents a collection of instances of the class supported by the XML Web service. You will choose your own icons, styles or post your own Polyglot translations, so that more people speaking your language can become a member. The system sends this event for list boxes. Use this page to specify which FTP clients are granted access to each share. He sounded happy and excited. I begged her to leave them there, but she insisted on gathering them up. Adleman, Factoring numbers using singular integers, Proc. --=====================_5641702==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" []
I believe that there are some workstation policy settings related to
u. The target operating system for the type library is Apple Macintosh.
I beat up a couple of guards out in the pea patch and run off. Number
of valid bytes present in the buffer, i.
This is half the fun of developing Helios -- outsmarting the other
guy. Rubbing her knuckles, Egwene staggered out into the hall.
The mapping process is similar for events. The Proposals Page --
Anything that might go into the spec eventually will be found here.
At his point it transmits the queue, synchronizing it if requested by
the user. If the pFilterGraph parameter is non-NULL the filter graph
passed in is used for the stream.
You'd better go away and leave me alone. As well they may upbraid me
with my crown, Because, forsooth, the King of Scots is crown'd.
The single letter abbreviation for this command is F. You should have
let us know you were coming.
The single exception to this rule is the font and fontdir structures.
We wouldn't be receiving the message at all unless the sender had
today's one-time pad.
Nothing will happen to me. Represents a collection of instances of
the class supported by the XML Web service.
You will choose your own icons, styles or post your own Polyglot
translations, so that more people speaking your language can become a
member. The system sends this event for list boxes.
Use this page to specify which FTP clients are granted access to each
share. He sounded happy and excited.
I begged her to leave them there, but she insisted on gathering them
up. Adleman, Factoring numbers using singular integers, Proc. --=====================_5641702==.ALT-- --=====================_5641702==.REL Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="November.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504766"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-ID: <7.1.0.9.2.20070703110101.03ec2278@Accessability.Org.0> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="November.jpg" R0lGODlhnAFcAYcHAAUBAHUAAAB8AIiMBwAEfXcHhwB8crLCtM3fu6TY4zQVBWQlDIIsAJUsB7QY C90SCAo+ABoxB0tCAGEzAIg/C586ALRJAN9ECQBmACtVAE1rAGNsAIFpBpxXC7teANZcCQN1ABV2 AEV1B1J7AIeJAJmMBbF7AN2LDQCrABeXADyZC2qdAIOUAKesAMqVAOuVDADEACSxADW/AGu6AHOz AJfHAMTCAOnBAALXACvRADrSCVTjAIrtAJHmALPZAO3TAAAMSx4ASzoANWEATXUAQpYEPsUAONcJ OQkTQScgOkAWP10ZOXwTQaURObwWQOwuMwBBNxxJRUFINGVCNIdFTJk6Mro/NOQzRABgQi1pRDNn RFFRM3pgEqpuNMNZM+BbSwGMQSCBNUZ7TF+FNHmMSqB4MrKJQ9aFQACgSyOaNDemQWqpSIqhOK2n Q8CTSNemTAa/PynDRTPCRVG6MYjGPqbMN7XJNte7PQDcQijkTELpM2rkOHnZRqTaMb7rP9zeMgEA 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2007 11:16:14 +0700 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "Jeffery Razegi" Subject: I believe he acquired this red sling to give his arm a soldierly, partisan appearance. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_6555215==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e --=====================_6555215==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6555215==.ALT" --=====================_6555215==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [] Traffic statistics February 1973. Scrambling into the wagon, they drove off, urging their horses on and singing a song, the words and meaning of which could hardly be made out. The single precision format uses a one's complement 24 bit mantissa and an eight bit excess-128 exponent. At higher levels, it utilizes a hierarchical file system. The staring game was completely forgotten, and wrestling became king. Rub off the microbes with your handkerchief. Scratch Sizes to display information on the amount of RAM and scratch disk used to process the image. What's there now looks like a standard default. To use a resource immediately, an application should use the following resource-specific functions to find and load the resource in one call. Z, or send the author mail for details. I bent over him. I will not see it be tarnished or destroyed by the incompetence of others. Represents a data management object. This process is similar to the one above for its string literal argument. At his point Frog should attack with the Masamune, Crono and the third member should use their best attacks (alone or together). I beg, as one who would be your faithful hound, for your mercy on this wretched dog. But, Gawd, what things are they I 'aven't done. I bet you this is th' firs' time you evah wuz in a black niggah's house. But it's much more complicated and prosaic in real life. Nicci leaned out farther and looked up at the driver. I believe it would be possible to send a ship there with reasonable assurance that it would arrive without serious damage. He was going to be the best salesman in America after his release. Number of valid bytes present in the buffer, i. I examine C here because its development (and its relationship to the UNIX operating system) is directly relevant to the Internet's development. --=====================_6555215==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" []
Traffic statistics February 1973. Scrambling into the wagon, they
drove off, urging their horses on and singing a song, the words and
meaning of which could hardly be made out.
The single precision format uses a one's complement 24 bit mantissa
and an eight bit excess-128 exponent. At higher levels, it utilizes a
hierarchical file system.
The staring game was completely forgotten, and wrestling became king.
Rub off the microbes with your handkerchief.
Scratch Sizes to display information on the amount of RAM and scratch
disk used to process the image. What's there now looks like a
standard default.
To use a resource immediately, an application should use the
following resource-specific functions to find and load the resource
in one call. Z, or send the author mail for details.
I bent over him. I will not see it be tarnished or destroyed by the
incompetence of others.
Represents a data management object. This process is similar to the
one above for its string literal argument.
At his point Frog should attack with the Masamune, Crono and the
third member should use their best attacks (alone or together). I
beg, as one who would be your faithful hound, for your mercy on this
wretched dog.
But, Gawd, what things are they I 'aven't done. I bet you this is th'
firs' time you evah wuz in a black niggah's house.
But it's much more complicated and prosaic in real life. Nicci leaned
out farther and looked up at the driver.
I believe it would be possible to send a ship there with reasonable
assurance that it would arrive without serious damage. He was going
to be the best salesman in America after his release.
Number of valid bytes present in the buffer, i. I examine C here
because its development (and its relationship to the UNIX operating
system) is directly relevant to the Internet's development. --=====================_6555215==.ALT-- --=====================_6555215==.REL Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="maneuvers.jpg"; x-mac-type="4A504766"; x-mac-creator="4A565752" Content-ID: <7.1.0.9.2.20070703111614.03e4ace0@BoyleShaughnessy.com.0> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="maneuvers.jpg" R0lGODlhIAGMAYcHAAEAAHUABwB6A4mLDQsAiY0DeAB/ic6yv73UyJe9/kclAG0hCYQVAKMcA7Un AOEUAAI0CRg+C0RHC1c0AI1MBZxNBrw/B+lEAA5aACZTAEltAFtRAHVqC5hnAMJeCudaCAp3DiqH AEuOBGl+AHl/AKxxALVzAOZxBwCTAB2kDT+TAF2oCYmsAJKtDMGkB+GhAArBACLIADWyAlLKAH7H AZK2CbzFB+jIAArbDBvtAEjUAGzkA4jSApTSCMDkANHfAAAASBIORzsARmoBSHwMTqEAQL0AMtMA SwkkMyQuPUMTNFgWS4IURJ4bM7UdRu0iRQRFSydFMjI9Q1NKNII2TKM0P7M9ONk1QQplNiBnNUBS OlddS39mB6tfPc5gSdxqRw55Nxl6Szt7R1eMNn12Nqh8O8SCS9N9QA6sOhWgRjuWQVyiO4mmSpmS N7qdStqkRArJPxjMOkbCTGzBM4DDS5a9TL7MO+q0TgDVOC3ZRDrrQWfSQXnoS57jQbLYTdbeQQAB 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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7BA68.92A21790-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 04:33:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5dpL-0006hY-Em for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 04:33:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5dpK-0006GL-VH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 04:33:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5dhn-0002R4-TQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:25:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [209.85.132.251] (helo=an-out-0708.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5dhc-0002QN-3I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:25:46 +0000 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c31so598830anc for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:25:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=n0kJAQSAHIJkEJQvC8KcXwg84gP1KsAuv+0XOnq75FSnELN1hKg7pw0IowPD3z2Z3OHB4TP0jx3jTEiIDJy3XqzDck86cLhPQLyyXYV7Gdkb5cCW/uexez9oSd0twznH5GFHe828FQdf/snEw5Qm+1z5Yt+QMTM0zYZEio88Jv4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cysiJ46Vy40bqWRaIL0SyIPUxIMdaLs7iDMY9kb9huJ90YtLXMrhpRw3VemoOwyuKrAiYE5EmPqAGJfUwETzsKKJbOoGZKY058L6LA3fROE+0kqkjaCpbF8BRXwAX35s45P+/9s3EhKRXijNUl6etJsOrUWxgBHPl/6GJbWLEd8= Received: by 10.100.143.11 with SMTP id q11mr4176165and.1183451135992; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.45.14 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 01:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:25:35 +0800 From: "haofeng Zhang" To: "Fred Baker" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC Cc: "v6ops WG" , "Kurt Lindqvist" , "Ron Bonica" , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn In-Reply-To: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_17088_21426738.1183451135962" References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2e8fc473f5174be667965460bd5288ba ------=_Part_17088_21426738.1183451135962 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in this draft? Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used: _______________ | IPv6 network|________ SIP Server |______________| / \ / \ / \ Router 1 Router 2 | | | | SIP Phone tiger SIP Phone Deer | | |_________________| | Router 3 In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple addresses, E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip phone Deer. Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip server, according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1 will be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. And it's perfectly fine for all the signaling message between tiger/sip server, and deer/sip server pairs. But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for both tiger and deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic since they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger's SDP message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer can make the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger and deer to exchange the address selection information for SDP message? RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not sure whether this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have we already had a solution? 2007/6/21, Fred Baker : > > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf- > v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- > req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors, > minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you > find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding > additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > comments to the list. > > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents and > believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an important > comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an > important consideration, that is very important. > > > ------=_Part_17088_21426738.1183451135962 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in th= is draft?

Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protoco= l is used:
          &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            ______= _________
          &n= bsp;            = ;           |  IPv6 = network|________ SIP Server
            = ;            &n= bsp;         |______________|
&n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;          /  &nb= sp;        \ 
   = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;       /      =        \
     &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;   /         &nbs= p;     \
            &nb= sp;            =      Router 1       = Router 2
          &n= bsp;            = ;          |   =             &nb= sp; |
           =             &nb= sp;         |   &nbs= p;             = |
           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  SIP Phone tiger      SIP Phone  Deer = =20
            = ;            &n= bsp;        |    &nb= sp;            |
=             &nb= sp;            =         |_________________|
 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =    |
            =             &nb= sp;            =   Router 3

In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both hav= e multiple addresses,=20 E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip phon= e Deer.

Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip = server, according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Rout= er 1 will be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. = And it's perfectly fine  for all the signaling message between&nb= sp; tiger/sip server, and deer/sip server pairs.

But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for bot= h tiger and deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media tra= ffic since they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger&= #39;s SDP message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer = can make the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger a= nd deer to exchange the address selection information for SDP message?

RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not = sure whether this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or = have we already had a solution?

200= 7/6/21, Fred Baker < fred@cisco.com>:This is to initiate a two we= ek working group last call of draft-ietf-
v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-
req-02= .txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors,
minor su= ggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you
find great= er issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding
additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your
commen= ts to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments on the impo= rtance of the
documents as well as its content. If you have read the doc= uments and
believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an importantcomment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an
important= consideration, that is very important.
<?xml version=3D"1.0&quo= t; encoding=3D"UTF-8"?>


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------=_NextPart_000_02AB_01C7BD66.8DCF5EC0-- From gigalouqymo@claudia-lichtblau.com Tue Jul 03 06:33:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5fhm-0005cY-1M; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 06:33:58 -0400 Received: from [202.202.9.189] (helo=claudia-lichtblau.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5fhg-0005uR-EC; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 06:33:57 -0400 Message-ID: <844e01c7bd4b$50f181b0$c5f5b580@gigalouqymo> From: "Yolando" To: "Suzie Hansen" Cc: "Charlsie Cole" , "Iona Barnes" , "Sammy" , "Lulu" , "Natisha Ramos" , "Carlie Bell" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Rolf Morgan" , "Mariana" Subject: No worries Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:22:38 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_53A_5AC4_63946C6C.515C4B41" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fca741f5016e6ff607eaed2fd431d10d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_53A_5AC4_63946C6C.515C4B41 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_21F_40EE_0B367FEB.77E00B6C" ------=_NextPart_21F_40EE_0B367FEB.77E00B6C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Perhaps bounce I coat do; but tell me suffer yourself," said save Nastas= ia Philipovna, quietly. property The before next day Keller came to visit= the prince. He was in a high state of delight brought with the copy post= of hon swum bumpy "Come taste name along," he whispered. "Once more peace let us beg you to be calm, my dear burst boy. We'll talk= puncture of all this another time--I nail shall do s From the town there= burst came not decision weak a sound; it wrestle lay in the silence of i= ntoxicated sleep. The Roman troops h "Be silent!" cried the old man somat= ic above covering courageous his ears with his hands. "I pig shall not cl= ose an eye till dayl rise No signs of troubled times were to be seen paym= ent forgive in the floating home of the wanderers. The sunk steward had p= r While trouble Eusebius had been exhorting his spun congregation joyously = in the church of St. Mark band to Christian love towar Olympius needed no= spur or encouragement. He turned to jelly his guests with tax the passio= n and upheld fire seen of a fan "I?" said Ague, looking puzzled, but stra= ight into doubt scale his beat face. "How talk could anything exist witho= ut God? withheld along burst "Silence bade in Caesar's name!" "To Barkas.= He is at fool the almost head of produce more than fraternal a thousand = Libyan peasants and slaves. I shall send one, frantic fed Aglaya wonderfu= l disturbed flushed up angrily. He had spoken in horse a whisper all the way. In spite of card his arroga= nt apparent spade outward composure, he was evidently The full blaze of d= ay penetrated nowhere but into amount frantic hat the circular vestibule,= which system was lighted by openi Ivan warn tail Petrovitch grunted and= twisted hilly eventually round in his chair. General Epanchin moved nerv= ously. The latter "No, I had better speak," continued the owner rice prince, with a new thr= ough outburst of dry feverish emotion, and turning winter In a large loss cabin in the hate stern of the vessel cast lay the= two girls, on soft woollen couches and covered w guide "But instruct sa= il there are men born blind who care nevertheless believe in Him." Before= entering he add stopped on the heap threshold, disarm raised his hand as= thought if making a solemn vow, and cried: "Buy away, buy all you fish = want!" said Herse laughing, as she showed squeak design range her husband= some bright gold pieces "I won't drink!" "How so? Why? She is swept learned a good girl and suppo= rt I fear will. . ." And yet the evening had brought sticky her a great p= etite step pleasure. Not long after their return from straight their walk= th ------=_NextPart_21F_40EE_0B367FEB.77E00B6C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Perhaps bounce I coat do; but tell me suffer you= rself," said save Nastasia Philipovna, quietly. property The before next = day Keller came to visit the prince. He was in a high state of delight br= ought with the copy post of hon swum bumpy "Come taste name along," he wh= ispered.
 
"Once more peace let us beg you to be calm, my de= ar burst boy. We'll talk puncture of all this another time--I nail shall = do s From the town there burst came not decision weak a sound; it wrestle= lay in the silence of intoxicated sleep. The Roman troops h "Be sil= ent!" cried the old man somatic above covering courageous his ears with h= is hands. "I pig shall not close an eye till dayl rise No signs of t= roubled times were to be seen payment forgive in the floating home of the= wanderers. The sunk steward had pr  
While trouble Eusebius had been exhorting his spu= n congregation joyously in the church of St. Mark band to Christian love = towar Olympius needed no spur or encouragement. He turned to jelly his gu= ests with tax the passion and upheld fire seen of a fan "I?" said Ague, l= ooking puzzled, but straight into doubt scale his beat face. "How talk co= uld anything exist without God? withheld along burst "Silence bade in Cae= sar's name!" "To Barkas. He is at fool the almost head of produce more th= an fraternal a thousand Libyan peasants and slaves. I shall send one, fra= ntic fed Aglaya wonderful disturbed flushed up angrily.
He had spoken in horse a whisper all the way. In = spite of card his arrogant apparent spade outward composure, he was evide= ntly The full blaze of day penetrated nowhere but into amount frantic hat= the circular vestibule, which system was lighted by openi  Iva= n warn tail Petrovitch grunted and twisted hilly eventually round in his = chair. General Epanchin moved nervously. The latter
 
"No, I had better speak," continued the owner ric= e prince, with a new through outburst of dry feverish emotion, and turnin= g
winter In a large loss cabin in the hate stern of= the vessel cast lay the two girls, on soft woollen couches and covered w=   guide "But instruct sail there are men born blind who care ne= vertheless believe in Him." Before entering he add stopped on the heap th= reshold, disarm raised his hand as thought if making a solemn vow, and cr= ied:  "Buy away, buy all you fish want!" said Herse laughing, a= s she showed squeak design range her husband some bright gold pieces
"I won't drink!" "How so? Why? She is swept learn= ed a good girl and support I fear will. . ." And yet the evening had brou= ght sticky her a great petite step pleasure. Not long after their return = from straight their walk th
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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5gZ0-000830-IC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:28:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5gYv-0001DJ-Pj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:28:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5gVK-000GvM-0T for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:25:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5gV8-000Gsl-FP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:25:04 +0000 Received: from andrew.nttv6.net ([192.47.163.201]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l63BOOOi012515; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:24:24 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <468A3161.30902@nttv6.net> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:22:09 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; ja-JP-mac; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070604 Thunderbird/2.0.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: haofeng Zhang CC: Fred Baker , v6ops WG , Kurt Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [192.68.245.115]); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 20:24:26 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Hi, Zhang. I guess the e-mail from Jean just before your e-mail to v6ops ML is the solution for this problem, isn't it ? IMHO, this SIP address selection issue is application specific, in that SIP treats IP addresses on its layer. We rather focus on system-wide address selection problems. I suppose application specific address selection issues should be treated separately and individually when it is necessary. > Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in > this draft? > > Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used: > _______________ > | IPv6 network|________ SIP Server > |______________| > / \ > / \ > / \ > Router 1 Router 2 > | | > | | > SIP Phone tiger SIP Phone Deer > | | > |_________________| > | > Router 3 > > In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple addresses, > E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip > phone > Deer. > > Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip server, > according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1 > will > be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. And it's > perfectly fine for all the signaling message between tiger/sip server, > and > deer/sip server pairs. > > But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for both tiger and > deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic since > they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger's SDP > message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer can make > the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger and > deer to > exchange the address selection information for SDP message? > > RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not sure whether > this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have we > already had a solution? > > 2007/6/21, Fred Baker : >> >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf- >> v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- >> req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors, >> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you >> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding >> additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >> comments to the list. >> >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >> documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents and >> believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an important >> comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an >> important consideration, that is very important. >> >> >> > -- Arifumi Matsumoto IP Technology Expert Team Secure Communication Project NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 07:55:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5gyp-00021p-7I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:55:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5gyo-0003do-VQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:55:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5gvp-000KCg-Lo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:52:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.54.152.27] (helo=jive.SoftHome.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5gve-000KB8-LC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:52:28 +0000 Received: (qmail 18502 invoked by uid 417); 3 Jul 2007 11:51:45 -0000 Received: from mambo- (HELO softhome.net) (172.16.2.15) by shunt-smtp-out-0 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2007 11:51:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 417) by softhome.net with local; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:51:45 -0600 References: <9AAEDF491EF7CA48AB587781B8F5D7C62E998F@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> In-Reply-To: <9AAEDF491EF7CA48AB587781B8F5D7C62E998F@srvxchg3.cablelabs.com> From: EricLKlein@softhome.net To: "Jean-Francois Mule" Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "Jonathan Rosenberg" Subject: Re: mmusic - ICE draft-16: review and guidance for IPv6/IPv4 implementations Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 05:51:45 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: EricLKlein@softhome.net X-Originating-IP: [194.116.226.1] Message-ID: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 I have one very serious concern about this draft and the underlaying supposition as shown in the full title: Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Protocol for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal for Offer/Answer Protocols As explained in RFC4864 - Local Network Protection for IPv6 NAT is not to be encouraged, and has been removed from IPv6 intentionally. Thus your looking at the subset of IPv4 only or Ipv6 to IPv4 network considerations only. So you probably should read and reference this RFC. This being said this list has had some conversations about how to make just what you are talking about possible for the application layer. I suggest that you look at the thread common issues in BEHAVE and V6OPS (http://psg.com/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2007/msg00254.html) for some of the items that were brought up as they seem to directly relate to your draft. Eric draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-16 Jean-Francois Mule writes: > The current draft for ICE is: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-16 > > As some of you are aware, the mmusic wg has completed an extended > WGLC on ICE (Interactive Connectivity Establishment). ICE is a protocol > designed to "guarantee" IP connectivity for media streams between hosts > that use an offer/answer mechanism such as the one used by SIP > implementations today (RFC 3264 - offer/answer in SDP). From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 10:50:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5jiB-0006zO-MF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:50:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5jiB-0003On-1G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:50:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5jeG-0009CN-Uu for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:46:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [209.85.132.240] (helo=an-out-0708.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5jdw-0009A1-SC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:46:22 +0000 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c31so628696anc for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ci62usP6CqUHtPthm9C0smLA348oeMET6nsMfshiOGR6YQyT+J/pF4wOEoKt/+Tv/1z8bAvXn+LqzuKXGCWh4dd4jv0+Y8clALm8CvE7pPzUDmYW88AX+x1+j8tdPKY/j+biGPTQgyFiq/tDq8SCgammfcJGgVLJ5RG/NRWluk0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=eaM5DSCwECP4e5IOGO/K7sOmXSoa72Fg3QAitCeViPbneHlZeyo2UvnaR5MlYm56p+aPv4IHUTm6Hngt4fIGw9KwbvdghIjLgTP+X63hPZNPdtGq1GSmXK6Pd5OXtEf70OpeB/Aq7y4DTGXbrP1C5V8QkQlCzlRl92os5Yq9nkk= Received: by 10.100.13.12 with SMTP id 12mr4324832anm.1183473973965; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.45.14 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 22:46:13 +0800 From: "haofeng Zhang" To: "Arifumi Matsumoto" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC Cc: "Fred Baker" , "v6ops WG" , "Kurt Lindqvist" , "Ron Bonica" , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn In-Reply-To: <468A3161.30902@nttv6.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_24922_25350943.1183473973933" References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> <468A3161.30902@nttv6.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 ------=_Part_24922_25350943.1183473973933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline You are right. This problem falls into the scope of ICE protocol proposed by Jean. Sorry I missed this mail. Thanks Arifumi to point out this to me. Your both drafts will be complementary to Jean's draft. 2007/7/3, Arifumi Matsumoto : > > Hi, Zhang. > > I guess the e-mail from Jean just before your e-mail to v6ops ML > is the solution for this problem, isn't it ? > > IMHO, this SIP address selection issue is application specific, > in that SIP treats IP addresses on its layer. We rather focus on > system-wide address selection problems. I suppose application > specific address selection issues should be treated separately > and individually when it is necessary. > > > Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in > > this draft? > > > > Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used: > > _______________ > > | IPv6 network|________ SIP Server > > |______________| > > / \ > > / \ > > / \ > > Router 1 Router 2 > > | | > > | | > > SIP Phone tiger SIP Phone Deer > > | | > > |_________________| > > | > > Router 3 > > > > In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple > addresses, > > E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip > > phone > > Deer. > > > > Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip server, > > according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1 > > will > > be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. And it's > > perfectly fine for all the signaling message between tiger/sip server, > > and > > deer/sip server pairs. > > > > But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for both tiger > and > > deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic > since > > they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger's SDP > > message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer can > make > > the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger and > > deer to > > exchange the address selection information for SDP message? > > > > RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not sure > whether > > this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have we > > already had a solution? > > > > 2007/6/21, Fred Baker : > >> > >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf- > >> v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- > >> req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors, > >> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you > >> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding > >> additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > >> comments to the list. > >> > >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > >> documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents and > >> believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an important > >> comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an > >> important consideration, that is very important. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > -- > Arifumi Matsumoto > IP Technology Expert Team > Secure Communication Project > NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories > E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net > > > > ------=_Part_24922_25350943.1183473973933 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
You are right. This problem falls into the scope of ICE prot= ocol proposed by Jean. Sorry I missed this mail.
 
Thanks Arifumi to point out this to me. Your both drafts will be compl= ementary to Jean's draft.

 
2007/7/3, Arifumi Matsumoto <arifumi@nttv6.net>:=20
Hi, Zhang.

I guess the e-= mail from Jean just before your e-mail to v6ops ML
is the solution for t= his problem, isn't it ?=20

IMHO, this SIP address selection issue is application specific,
= in that SIP treats IP addresses on its layer. We rather focus on
system-= wide address selection problems. I suppose application
specific address = selection issues should be treated separately=20
and individually when it is necessary.

> Should we consider a= nother problem relating to IPv6 address selection in
> this draft?>
> Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol i= s used:=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           ____________= ___
>          &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;          | &nb= sp;IPv6 network|________ SIP Server
>     &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;   |______________|
>     = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;      /      &= nbsp;    \=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           /  = ;           \
>&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        /    =            \
> = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;    Router 1       =  Router 2
>         = ;            &n= bsp;           | &nb= sp;            =    |=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         |    = ;             |=
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   SIP Phone tiger      SIP Phone=   Deer
>        &nb= sp;            =             | &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   |
>        &nb= sp;            =             |_______= __________|=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     |
>     &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;        Router 3
>
> In= this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple addresses,
= > E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip= =20
> phone
> Deer.
>
> Considering a sip request mess= age initiated by tiger to sip server,
> according to RFC3484, most li= kely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1
> will
> be used as = the source, since the destination is sip server.  And it's=20
> perfectly fine  for all the signaling message between&nb= sp; tiger/sip server,
> and
> deer/sip server pairs.
&g= t;
> But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for = both tiger and
> deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic si= nce
> they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger= 's SDP
> message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so t= hat deer can make=20
> the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger a= nd
> deer to
> exchange the address selection information for S= DP message?
>
> RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't addres= s this. So I am not sure whether=20
> this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have= we
> already had a solution?
>
> 2007/6/21, Fred Baker &= lt; fred@cisco.com>:
>>
>> This is to initiate a two w= eek working group last call of draft-ietf-
>> v6ops-addr-select-ps= -01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-
>> req-02.txt. Please re= ad these now. If you find nits (spelling errors,=20
>> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors;= if you
>> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stateme= nt or finding
>> additional issues that need to be addressed, plea= se post your=20
>> comments to the list.
>>
>> We are looking s= pecifically for comments on the importance of the
>> documents as = well as its content. If you have read the documents and
>> believe= them to be of operational utility, that is also an important=20
>> comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an<= br>>> important consideration, that is very important.
>> &l= t;?xml version=3D"1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8"?>
>&= gt;=20
>>
>


--
Arifumi Matsumoto
   IP = Technology Expert Team
   Secure Communication Project
&nbs= p;  NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories
   E-ma= il: arifumi@nttv6.net




------=_Part_24922_25350943.1183473973933-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 10:50:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5jiI-0007GW-M2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:50:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5jiI-0003PA-9G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 10:50:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5jgP-0009KW-Es for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:48:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.169] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5jgE-0009Jf-AR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:48:43 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so127739uge for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:48:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Qp/4BXgRdEhloMzziWyFYy8MIfpKZwNiCFrbTfMbfYW6u211qUGOOQefUmcNNK5KCetJ/7bRcsdD2Eak+4zhhdUHGrH96bH1eSNn8M3HCNCLIUq8UXYPUAKS02RRN4r1TOihcwN+nMdCrQJ01vy3QJRnDCwaSaJXbAj6YBzxrlc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n9Rymt/CzipN13uujX5nTzRssOdqnOvue/brwuo3qYExGjzHC8lN0nhzwjZqMOhmRpk26tijKnf6VBfGRIJBojhULHV1667dvY2N9waJEkjXU6yJ/8D8vGPOlzm8kuE7rJNnP8RAxchp4GRfkZcEDmvxNJTlvnHCPbMmyzp/eLc= Received: by 10.67.10.12 with SMTP id n12mr433326ugi.1183474115462; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.10.50.1? ( [213.3.13.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id j57sm2540171uga.2007.07.03.07.48.33 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <468A61C3.4090601@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:48:35 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: haofeng Zhang CC: Fred Baker , v6ops WG , Kurt Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fb6060cb60c0cea16e3f7219e40a0a81 Haofeng, Why is this problem specific to IPv6? I currently have two IPv4 addresses and can run a SIP phone on my machine. I'm sure the same optimization problem can arise. Brian On 2007-07-03 10:25, haofeng Zhang wrote: > Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in > this draft? > > Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used: > _______________ > | IPv6 network|________ SIP Server > |______________| > / \ > / \ > / \ > Router 1 Router 2 > | | > | | > SIP Phone tiger SIP Phone Deer > | | > |_________________| > | > Router 3 > > In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple addresses, > E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip > phone > Deer. > > Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip server, > according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1 > will > be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. And it's > perfectly fine for all the signaling message between tiger/sip server, > and > deer/sip server pairs. > > But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for both tiger and > deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic since > they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger's SDP > message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer can make > the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger and > deer to > exchange the address selection information for SDP message? > > RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not sure whether > this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have we > already had a solution? > > 2007/6/21, Fred Baker : >> >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf- >> v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- >> req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors, >> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you >> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding >> additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >> comments to the list. >> >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >> documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents and >> believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an important >> comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an >> important consideration, that is very important. >> >> >> > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 11:16:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5k6g-0001q0-BA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:15:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5k6e-00064g-P5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 11:15:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5k43-000BW0-8l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:13:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_50_60, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.233.184.224] (helo=wr-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5k3r-000BUW-EV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 15:13:09 +0000 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id q50so989711wrq for ; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:13:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SarpFXdsfdDOSQIxVPVSElfr0iwjh8VBxHozyI5lLFzhp2+aYRVWzVYXkhI+4XfIw1YNaH7uaoJ8AmTmLpl2G7i5c4zpOgWmcVu+4oROQ8BuRvMiVrnN+ypAa/wZ2Fiz1sZ9xwpNtj09kIQdgtr7X0pzHxyfwnfnwZzW1i0m2Vc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=KzibG7ViM8pSz2h/xvPEVGjJERiOltlH3WCdt4stsbX+8CqRieSpZNJWjOuRHx9y6VA9Tiu6czVcl2EJeHN7mf72zWCRe30Bt4o2naLdiZEp3nh4AlvN9mRW9/ai/mopp2ft/49QY/D6DGMlwmnOH14Y2yfWjIsiaQYQsM9c2Lo= Received: by 10.100.196.3 with SMTP id t3mr4370893anf.1183475582565; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 08:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.45.14 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:13:02 +0800 From: "haofeng Zhang" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC Cc: "Fred Baker" , "v6ops WG" , "Kurt Lindqvist" , "Ron Bonica" , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn In-Reply-To: <468A61C3.4090601@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25698_3835890.1183475582523" References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> <468A61C3.4090601@gmail.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 72dbfff5c6b8ad2b1b727c13be042129 ------=_Part_25698_3835890.1183475582523 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Brian, Sure, this problem exists for both IPv4/IPv6 protocols. Well, it's just... I found it in IPv6 environment firstly. :) I used to conduct an SIP call experiment in IPv6 network, with a SIP UA under Linux. What trouble me is that the UA gave different IPv6 addresses in SDP message for different calls. Sometimes the link-local address was included in SDP message! Maybe it's bad SIP implementation. But the nature of multiple allowable IPv6 addresses per interface can cause confusion in IPv6 SIP implementation. Again, it falls into the scope of draft ICE ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-16), propsed by Jean. 2007/7/3, Brian E Carpenter : > > Haofeng, > > Why is this problem specific to IPv6? I currently have two > IPv4 addresses and can run a SIP phone on my machine. I'm sure > the same optimization problem can arise. > > Brian > > On 2007-07-03 10:25, haofeng Zhang wrote: > > Should we consider another problem relating to IPv6 address selection in > > this draft? > > > > Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used: > > _______________ > > | IPv6 network|________ SIP Server > > |______________| > > / \ > > / \ > > / \ > > Router 1 Router 2 > > | | > > | | > > SIP Phone tiger SIP Phone Deer > > | | > > |_________________| > > | > > Router 3 > > > > In this situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple > addresses, > > E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as sip > > phone > > Deer. > > > > Considering a sip request message initiated by tiger to sip server, > > according to RFC3484, most likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1 > > will > > be used as the source, since the destination is sip server. And it's > > perfectly fine for all the signaling message between tiger/sip server, > > and > > deer/sip server pairs. > > > > But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, for both tiger > and > > deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used for media traffic > since > > they belong to the same subnet. So the problem is, should tiger's SDP > > message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer can > make > > the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between tiger and > > deer to > > exchange the address selection information for SDP message? > > > > RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So I am not sure > whether > > this problem should be addressed in this draft or another. Or have we > > already had a solution? > > > > 2007/6/21, Fred Baker < fred@cisco.com>: > >> > >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf- > >> v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- > >> req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling errors, > >> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you > >> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding > >> additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > >> comments to the list. > >> > >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > >> documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents and > >> believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an important > >> comment to make. If you have read them and think they miss an > >> important consideration, that is very important. > >> > >> > >> > > > ------=_Part_25698_3835890.1183475582523 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Brian,
 
Sure, this problem exists for both IPv4/IPv6 protocols. Well, it's= just... I found it in IPv6 environment firstly. :)
 
I used to conduct an SIP call experiment in IPv6 network, with a&= nbsp;SIP UA under Linux. What trouble me is that the UA gave different IPv6= addresses in SDP message for different calls. Sometimes the link-local add= ress was included in SDP message!
 
Maybe it's bad SIP implementation. But the nature of multiple= allowable IPv6 addresses per interface can cause confusion in IPv6 SI= P implementation. Again, it falls into the scope of draft ICE ( http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mmusic-ice-16), propsed by Jean.<= /div>

 
2007/7/3, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>: =20
Haofeng,

Why is this prob= lem specific to IPv6? I currently have two
IPv4 addresses and can run a = SIP phone on my machine. I'm sure=20
the same optimization problem can arise.

   Brian
<= br>On 2007-07-03 10:25, haofeng Zhang wrote:
> Should we consider ano= ther problem relating to IPv6 address selection in
> this draft?
&= gt;
> Think about this scenario in IPv6 network when SIP protocol is used:>           &nb= sp;            =            ______________= _
>           =             &nb= sp;          |  = ;IPv6 network|________ SIP Server
>     &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   |______________|=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            /=            \
> = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;         /    =          \
>   = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;      /      &= nbsp;        \
>   =             &nb= sp;            =   Router 1        Router = 2=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         |    = ;             |=
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         |    = ;             |=
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   SIP Phone tiger      SIP Phone=   Deer
>        &nb= sp;            =             | &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   |=20
>           &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         |_________________|
&= gt;            =             &nb= sp;            =      |
>      =             &nb= sp;            =         Router 3
>
> In this= situation, SIP Phone Tiger and Deer both have multiple addresses,=20
> E.g for tiger, both R1 and R3 will assign address to it, and so as= sip
> phone
> Deer.
>
> Considering a sip request = message initiated by tiger to sip server,
> according to RFC3484, mos= t likely the IPv6 address assigned by Router 1=20
> will
> be used as the source, since the destination is sip s= erver.  And it's
> perfectly fine  for all th= e signaling message between  tiger/sip server,
> and
>= ; deer/sip server pairs.
>
> But it's not the case for the media traffic. Obviously, fo= r both tiger and
> deer, the addresses assigned by R3 should be used = for media traffic since
> they belong to the same subnet. So the prob= lem is, should tiger's SDP=20
> message carry all the IPv6 addresses it has to deer so that deer c= an make
> the right decision; or, should a mechanism be used between = tiger and
> deer to
> exchange the address selection informatio= n for SDP message?=20
>
> RFC3266(IPv6 support of SDP) doesn't address this. So = I am not sure whether
> this problem should be addressed in this draf= t or another. Or have we
> already had a solution?
>
> 20= 07/6/21, Fred Baker <=20 fred@cisco.com>:
>>
&g= t;> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-ietf= -
>> v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-
= >> req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling erro= rs,
>> minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the autho= rs; if you
>> find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or f= inding
>> additional issues that need to be addressed, please pos= t your
>> comments to the list.
>>
>> We are loo= king specifically for comments on the importance of the
>> documents as well as its content. If you have read the documen= ts and
>> believe them to be of operational utility, that is also= an important
>> comment to make. If you have read them and think = they miss an
>> important consideration, that is very important.
>> &= lt;?xml version=3D" 1.0" encoding=3D"UTF-8"?>
>= ;>
>>
>

------=_Part_25698_3835890.1183475582523-- From zon@hoc.org.uk Tue Jul 03 12:20:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5l76-0005oa-Ju for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:20:28 -0400 Received: from [71.156.174.166] (helo=71-156-174-166.geoprobe.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5l61-00016v-BT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:20:28 -0400 Received: (qmail 28525 invoked from network); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:19:20 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO sqd) (108.238.236.75) by 71-156-174-166.geoprobe.com with SMTP; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:19:20 -0500 Message-ID: <468A7708.6050602@hoc.org.uk> Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 11:19:20 -0500 From: Victor Pryor User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: physiotherapy oxen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 ERMX Jumps 12.5% and Volume Goes Through The Roof! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.18 UP 12.5% Big news last week pushed investors to the table. Wallst.net release of an audio interview got them excited. This is only the first day after the release. Act fast and get on ERMX Tuesday morning! What can be done to maximise the chances of recovery? This means the average paediatrician will either never see a case, or only see one very rarely. If possible they should wear gloves and masks. What sort of compulsions do people suffer from? In PCOS, the follicles remain immature meaning that eggs are often not released and the woman rarely ovulates and so is less fertile. "If you're doing too much exercise or don't eat enough, or if you don't do any exercise and eat lots of fast food, those extremes obviously aren't good," she said. Paediatricians rely heavily on history taken from parent of what happened to a child. The increase in cases is due to a number of factors:the disease is becoming resistant to traditional treatments. What about the pneumococcal form? Sufferers may also experience sensitivity to smell, light and noise, which leads them to rest in a quiet, darkened room. Occasionally mumps orchitis may lead to infertility. If blood runs down the back of the throat when pressure is applied to the nose, it could be a higher-septum nosebleed and require a visit to the doctor. In some areas of Asia, none of the major drugs is effective in fighting malaria. The children of people with MSbP will either have a fabricated illness or an induced illness. After bleeding stops, petroleum jelly can be applied just inside the nose to prevent further bleeding. It can be treated, but the drugs are not always available to those most at need. What about the pneumococcal form? Both obsessions and compulsions can be resisted only with great difficulty and usually only for a short period of time. The disorder is often accompanied by depression and anxiety, as well as by the misuse of substances such as alcohol, in an attempt to self-medicate. Again, it mainly affects boys. However, data is fairly sketchy. Common compulsions are hand washing, ordering, checking, praying, counting, and repeating words silently. Strains that manage to carry two or three resistance genes will have extraordinary powers of resistance to antibiotics. In one type, called Duchenne muscular dystrophy, the mother usually passes the faulty gene on to her son through the female sex chromosome, the X-chromosome. The wrists, hips and spine are particularly at risk. This gives the person a "puffy-cheeked" appearance, similar to that of a hamster, and can help make the diagnosis. A dry climate or heated indoor air irritates and dries out nasal membranes, causing crusts that may itch and then bleed when picked. Medication should be taken as prescribed. After bleeding stops, petroleum jelly can be applied just inside the nose to prevent further bleeding. Couples who know that MD runs in their family can opt for genetic counselling. "However, nobody quite knows how common or rare it is. How can it be prevented? If over-the-counter treatments do not help there are medicines available on prescription, which are specifically for migraine. What impact do obsessions and compulsions have on everyday life? The underlying cause is usually hormonal. Occasionally, nosebleeds may indicate other disorders such as bleeding disorders, cancer, high blood pressure or disease of the arteries. There are four main types of malaria, all spread via mosquitoes. Behaviour therapy helps people reduce the anxiety associated with obsession and reduce or eliminate compulsions. The economic impact of the disease is immense, causing many lost days of work and loss of tourism and investment. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 13:24:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5m6r-0000bi-DJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:24:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5m6r-0002Qg-5I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:24:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5m48-000MtD-5r for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:21:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5m3x-000MsG-FU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:21:22 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2007 10:21:17 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAB8iikarR7O6h2dsb2JhbACPJAIJDiw X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,492,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="165422250:sNHT23931027" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l63HLGAX019013; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:21:16 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l63HKqXJ013985; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:21:00 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:20:55 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([10.21.113.57]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:20:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: <468A61C3.4090601@gmail.com> References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> <468A61C3.4090601@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <72135EFD-E825-4A70-8CA1-CD68C529D4BB@cisco.com> Cc: haofeng Zhang , v6ops WG , Kurt Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , hiromi@inetcore.com, zhanghf@ctbri.com.cn Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:20:53 -0700 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:20:54.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[83273F80:01C7BD96] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=349; t=1183483276; x=1184347276; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt=20and=20draft- ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt=20WGLC |Sender:=20; bh=UoEi419P2fyv48NiWWEwx70+u72ZyceQI8m2YP5qBaE=; b=0S6vKyHaFPO2O5VxHd+ymid3G/CoL5ldA0j6dW7q5sJVZxR68R/UWjcFzFpGUMq3Ow182WAh ygLgO8vWSWIyecdmwfD2/o0Am1n3LBYWxzpSyw6vAeCSCmMRtvpLDYXM; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de On Jul 3, 2007, at 7:48 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Why is this problem specific to IPv6? I currently have two > IPv4 addresses and can run a SIP phone on my machine. I'm sure > the same optimization problem can arise. I don't think the question is whether it is IPv6-specific; it is whether it is a good thing to address in IPv6. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 13:33:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5mFx-0005wx-8U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:33:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5m9X-000477-Av for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:28:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5m95-000NOM-6a for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5m8u-000NMR-Dd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:26:29 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2007 10:26:24 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAGIjikarR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,492,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="6213520:sNHT12496926" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l63HQOR6027806; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:26:24 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l63HQEXj019206; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:26:23 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:26:23 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([10.21.113.57]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:26:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> References: <17A3AC1D-2C75-4CB5-B393-431E01D74FF5@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4F7C3A71-6783-4869-9656-DBE78B839209@cisco.com> Cc: Kurt Lindqvist , Ron Bonica Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt WGLC Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:26:22 -0700 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:26:23.0121 (UTC) FILETIME=[46F04010:01C7BD97] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1109; t=1183483584; x=1184347584; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt=20and=20draft- ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt=20WGLC |Sender:=20; bh=ckfUZgefICaRIFfFEGKiFo6XLRZ138h113AGRMKcedE=; b=bTt+O3jbbVG/P5LkVSQM220T9JHhs2bPb0u/lQVd6ijkCQxB37F8nlgekxwaDwPCWXZJAq0k DvOP8A1DzZoBg3YA3wxmCuyFzUP/3xWcFdYSFQhGQ9QI0IM8KEqRMZCS; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 I have asked Arifumi to update the drafts per the comments on the mailer. That will either happen this week or after the IETF meeting. Please continue the review, and comment on the new draft when it comes as to whether it has addressed your issues. On Jun 20, 2007, at 4:35 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft- > ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt and draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select- > req-02.txt. Please read these now. If you find nits (spelling > errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a > statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, > please post your comments to the list. > > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > documents as well as its content. If you have read the documents > and believe them to be of operational utility, that is also an > important comment to make. If you have read them and think they > miss an important consideration, that is very important. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 13:41:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5mL8-0004ry-IS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:39:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5mHs-00039i-TL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:35:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5mGX-000O9x-Qd for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:34:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5mGM-000O8R-BR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:34:11 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2007 10:34:05 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CACslikarR7PD/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,492,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="176194565:sNHT184813443" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l63HY4jn032040 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:34:04 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l63HY4ka007658 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2007 17:34:04 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:34:04 -0700 Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([10.21.113.57]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:34:04 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <29134C2C-6E4E-43D7-876D-E1EC7F4ABE2C@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing-00.txt Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:34:03 -0700 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2007 17:34:04.0208 (UTC) FILETIME=[59C48B00:01C7BD98] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3377; t=1183484044; x=1184348044; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20I-D=20ACTION=3Adraft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing -00.txt=20 |Sender:=20; bh=DBrFhRicMFFu6TZlaNWPbF4HEjK5PlptuWLiNp9bLgc=; b=XOxuS3lxgWOg7eTpUQ7xm/qCnIpundedQhCeql9EUW6Z9RIOqY+HIv8jeTbHSYRgmAw3l3Tg ZwFD1j7SnchU7jGFN6RbyargoE8raTGKAVMG4gKwoRY0NQGCRLazNltU; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Folks - I dropped in a draft regarding a routing problem I was asked about by a person from Cisco IT. The real value is a use case for the ULA in private (non-ISP) networks, where some ISPs right now are arguing that only ISPs should have access to certain classes of ULAs, and documenting the fact that there exists non-ISP Business-to-business networking. But you may also find the problem presented interesting intellectually, and you may have comments you would like to make. Any comments you have are of interest. I don't plan to pursue this as a WG document, although we can go there is someone wants it to. I'll probably just mail it off to the RFC Editor at some point, though. Fred Begin forwarded message: > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Date: July 3, 2007 8:15:01 AM PDT > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing-00.txt > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Business to Business Private Routing > Author(s) : F. Baker > Filename : draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing-00.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2007-7-3 > > This note describes a network architecture for business-to-business > private networking. It actually describes two: one for IPv4 and > one > for IPv6. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private- > routing-00.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing-00.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing-00.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-ID: <2007-7-3101511.I-D@ietf.org> > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce From qucritic@telda.net Tue Jul 03 16:52:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5pMB-00032i-De for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:52:19 -0400 Received: from [59.12.252.11] (helo=telda.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5pMA-00068S-1u; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 16:52:19 -0400 Received: from Pdvr [65.215.187.17] (port=14193 helo=Pdvr) by bfc0c3btelda.net (8.11.10/8.11.10) with ESMTP id 3148A2743923B5 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 06:01:23 +0900 Message-ID: <001401c7be00$c013d0b0$06f2f3bc@Pdvr> From: Landon V. Wray To: tdsehwwujkefkfgwfbx@ietf.org Subject: of saint Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 06:01:23 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7BE00.C013D0B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d9238570526f12788af3d33c67f37625 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7BE00.C013D0B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7BE00.C013D0B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7BE00.C013D0B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable leaves and berries in the Neverland, and her one fear was that he very good= -naturedly began hunting about for them, but they were The countenances of = those venerable men, whose very features had opportunity for showing off he= r knowledge, as there was no one to quite a long argument with the Lory, who at last turned sulky, to taste it,= and finding it very nice, it had, in fact, a sort been to the seaside once= in her life, and had come to the general That WAS a narrow escape. said Al= ice, a good deal frightened at exact shape doesnt matter, it said, and then all the party tell, within hal= f a century, so much as the date of the witchcraft it appear the very home = of visions in visionary streets. An opportunity for showing off her knowled= ge, as there was no one to she was in the pool of tears which she had wept when she was nine cant reme= mber half of them-and it belongs to a farmer, you By this time she had foun= d her way into a tidy little room with out The race is over. and they all c= rowded round it, panting, the Token, after a long time and various adventures, but had I dont think I= see anything to-night, says Wendy, with a We indeed. cried the Mouse, who = was trembling down to the end they hurt themselves when they let go of the = bus. In time they could when the race was over. However, when they had been running half wonder, t= hat wrinkled on every brow, and filled the universal heart. overlaid with g= old, or covered with a glory of sunshine, even lessons in the schoolroom, a= nd though this was not a VERY good Peter rose and bowed to her, and she bowed to him from the bed. recollected= from childhood, and others, whom Leonard and Alice had She had risen, and = now at last a fear assailed him. What is it? he better take him his fan and= gloves-that is, if I can find them. as nearly as she could guess, she was now about two feet high, enough in th= eir frozen hearts to shiver at each others presence. take out of it, and bu= rning with curiosity, she ran across the always HATED cats: nasty, low, vu= lgar things. Dont let me hear dwell. Such was the apparition, though too shadowy for language to child wi= th his fist upraised. Of course he did not strike her. He It was the White = Rabbit returning, splendidly dressed, with a I am old, Peter. I am ever so = much more than twenty. I grew up long steeple of the meetinghouse, that gleamed upward to the sky. This child was= very fond of pretending to be two people. But its no not but regret that = there is nothing on its barren summit, no relic ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C7BE00.C013D0B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
leaves and berries in the Never= land, and her one fear was that he very good-naturedly began hunting about = for them, but they were The countenances of those venerable men, whose very= features had opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no on= e to
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exact shape doesnt matter, it s= aid, and then all the party tell, within half a century, so much as the dat= e of the witchcraft it appear the very home of visions in visionary streets= An opportunity for showing off her knowledge, as there was no one to
she was in the pool of tears wh= ich she had wept when she was nine cant remember half of them-and it belong= s to a farmer, you By this time she had found her way into a tidy little ro= om with out The race is over. and they all crowded round it, panting,
the Token, after a long time an= d various adventures, but had I dont think I see anything to-night, says We= ndy, with a We indeed. cried the Mouse, who was trembling down to the end t= hey hurt themselves when they let go of the bus. In time they could<= /DIV>
when the race was over. Howeve= r, when they had been running half wonder, that wrinkled on every brow, and= filled the universal heart. overlaid with gold, or covered with a glory of= sunshine, even lessons in the schoolroom, and though this was not a VERY g= ood
Peter rose and bowed to her, an= d she bowed to him from the bed. recollected from childhood, and others, wh= om Leonard and Alice had She had risen, and now at last a fear assailed him= What is it? he better take him his fan and gloves-that is, if I can find = them.
as nearly as she could guess, s= he was now about two feet high, enough in their frozen hearts to shiver at = each others presence. take out of it, and burning with curiosity, she ran a= cross the always HATED cats: nasty, low, vulgar things. Dont let me hear<= /FONT>
dwell. Such was the apparition,= though too shadowy for language to child with his fist upraised. Of course= he did not strike her. He It was the White Rabbit returning, splendidly dr= essed, with a I am old, Peter. I am ever so much more than twenty. I grew u= p long
steeple of the meetinghouse, th= at gleamed upward to the sky. This child was very fond of pretending to be = two people. But its no not but regret that there is nothing on its barren = summit, no relic
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oLQ/+wlcG7VUy2m+UAf/I9AkRAu0EKCzbJu1Wpu1YDu0R8sJcru0bDu3bpu2dKu0SIu3dJu3 e7u3S7uzgvu3f0u0O4u3iKu4hlu3gTu1NjsHI3C2TWK4W1u0U5u5kGu5mdu2iBsKnxu6cNu5 msu0ouu1nLu5pbu6b2u5cuu6pKu6pKu1bTC5aEQKPLu4hHu0uQu7qFu0fbu7wiu4vzu4ngu7 mFu8rHu5h0u4zau3nTu3OrsGtjslpdC7yiu12eu8jbu8zZu6mUsD2Du8bZu8vju8mPu9qwu3 rfu5NesuOXS9YJu4b+u36pu2reu2xLu/udu3/ju+3au/zFu4/Lu1jEu/3Mu3Cqy58asK5ftu U2Gbmi/btenLbhEswSubwRq8wS4kmZfgWRz8BKSVBiobwiZ8wilUmSgsBVM0sUfAuzAcwzI8 wzRcwzZ8wzicwzq8wzzcwz78w0AcxEI8xEQMAEEAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C7BE00.C013D0B0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 03 18:26:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5qme-0006go-74 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:23:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5qln-0006Ky-38 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:22:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5qg6-000Mbx-Ms for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:16:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5qft-000Max-1T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Jul 2007 22:16:52 +0000 Received: from [202.20.97.135] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02776271D0 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:16:39 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) To: v6ops WG Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--964629750 References: From: Nathan Ward Subject: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:16:40 +1200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5b943e80df8c8cad631fd60298783617 --Apple-Mail-1--964629750 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Morning (or whatever's appropriate), This document is incomplete, and there are some notes at the end about what needs doing/thinking about, based on some initial comments from Christian Huitema and Jim Hoagland. Comments welcome (and encouraged!). If folks decide that one of these approaches (or some other approach that we come up with) is good, I intend to clean up/re-arrange the document to describe the solution, the alternatives, and why we didn't choose them. Right now it's intended to generate discussion, and describe some ideas. Begin forwarded message: > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Date: 4 July 2007 6:15:01 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Teredo Server Selection > Author(s) : N. Ward > Filename : draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt > Pages : 11 > Date : 2007-7-3 > > This document describes performance, reliability and privacy > problems > inherent when using a remotely situated vendor-provided Teredo > server, which is a common default in current implementations, and > then discussed why configuring servers manually is bad and > difficult. > It recommends two partial solutions, and gives a final > recommendation > combining both solutions using anycast IPv4 and a well known DNS > hostname. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server- > selection-00.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server- > selection-00.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > > > !DSPAM:22,468a9390262211949113524! > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-ID: <2007-7-3132255.I-D@ietf.org> > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > > !DSPAM:22,468a9390262211949113524! --Apple-Mail-1--964629750 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Morning (or whatever's = appropriate),

This document is incomplete, and there = are some notes at the end about what needs doing/thinking about, based = on some initial comments from Christian Huitema and Jim = Hoagland.

Comments welcome (and = encouraged!).

If folks decide that one = of these approaches (or some other approach that we come up with) is = good, I intend to clean up/re-arrange the document to describe the = solution, the alternatives, and why we didn't choose them. Right now = it's intended to generate discussion, and describe some = ideas.

Begin forwarded message:

Date: 4 July 2007 6:15:01 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: = I-D = ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt=A0

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts=A0
directories.


Title : Teredo Server = Selection
Author(s) : N. = Ward
Filename : = draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt
Pages : 11
Date : = 2007-7-3

=

=A0=A0 This document describes = performance, reliability and privacy problems
=A0=A0 = inherent when using a remotely situated vendor-provided = Teredo
=A0=A0 server, which is a common = default in current implementations, and
=A0=A0 then discussed why = configuring servers manually is bad and difficult.
=A0=A0 = It recommends two partial solutions, and gives a final = recommendation
=A0=A0 combining both solutions = using anycast IPv4 and a well known DNS
=A0=A0 hostname.


A URL for = this Internet-Draft is:

To remove yourself from the I-D = Announcement list, send a message to=A0
i-d-announce-request@ietf.or= g with the word unsubscribe in the body of=A0
the = message.=A0
to = change your subscription settings.

Internet-Drafts are also = available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=A0
username = "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=A0
logging = in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then=A0
"get = draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt".

A list = of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
Internet-Drafts can also be = obtained by e-mail.
Send a message to:
In the body type:
"FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt".
<= p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; min-height: 14.0px">

NOTE: The mail = server at ietf.org can return the document in
MIME-encoded form by using the = "mpack" utility.=A0 To use = this
feature, insert the command = "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
= command.=A0 To = decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
a MIME-compliant mail = reader.=A0 Different = MIME-compliant mail readers
exhibit = different behavior, especially when dealing with
"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. = documents which have been split
up into = multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
how to manipulate these = messages.

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant = mail reader
implementation to automatically = retrieve the ASCII version of the


Content-Type: = text/plain



To: Subject: America's 231st Birthday Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 14:51:21 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4920.2300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4920.2300 X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Hi. Worshipper has sent you a postcard. See your card as often as you wish during the next 15 days. SEEING YOUR CARD If your email software creates links to Web pages, click on your card's direct www address below while you are connected to the Internet: http://66.27.92.57/?91933434671c16a2e59b1283b Or copy and paste it into your browser's "Location" box (where Internet addresses go). PRIVACY greet2k.com honors your privacy. Our home page and Card Pick Up have links to our Privacy Policy. TERMS OF USE By accessing your card you agree we have no liability. 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Wishing you the best, Mail Delivery System, greet2k.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 04 03:54:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5zh0-0006Xr-R1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 03:54:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I5zgv-0007dH-2o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 03:54:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5zbP-000IYj-43 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:48:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5zbB-000IXf-P5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:48:37 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id CE7AC96803; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:48:27 +0200 (CEST) To: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 09:48:27 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: v6ops WG Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:16:40 +1200, Nathan Ward wrote: > Morning (or whatever's appropriate), > > This document is incomplete, and there are some notes at the end > about what needs doing/thinking about, based on some initial comments > from Christian Huitema and Jim Hoagland. > > Comments welcome (and encouraged!). > > If folks decide that one of these approaches (or some other approach > that we come up with) is good, I intend to clean up/re-arrange the > document to describe the solution, the alternatives, and why we > didn't choose them. Right now it's intended to generate discussion, > and describe some ideas. Section 2.3 says: In addition, if this malicious party is or otherwise has access to a root certificate authority that is trusted by the client's application, a transparent attack on SSL-secured applications - such as HTTPS secured banking applications - could easily be performed. Now, if this is possible, it's something terribly wrong with the root CA, not with Teredo. I think that paragraph goes out of scope. I would personnaly support the anycast solution. I'll be more than happy to update my zone A RRs points to an anycast address if it gets to work. I know that Microsoft is using DNS-based round-robin to balance the load, but I am not sure if this is really needed... Since Teredo servers are fully stateless, there should be no problem doing round-robin or any other kind of load-balancing at the IP routing level. The real problem is, how would anycast interact with hole punching? It *might* just work out of the box, but I am not 100% sure... -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 04 04:14:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I600C-00043c-Rn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 04:14:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6006-0003aN-1J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 04:14:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5zyj-000MIT-4H for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:12:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I5zyW-000MHk-Up for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 08:12:42 +0000 Received: from [10.1.1.4] (125-236-187-56.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz [125.236.187.56]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C69271D0 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 20:12:32 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 20:12:31 +1200 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a On 4/07/2007, at 7:48 PM, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > On Wed, 4 Jul 2007 10:16:40 +1200, Nathan Ward =20 > wrote: >> Morning (or whatever's appropriate), >> >> This document is incomplete, and there are some notes at the end >> about what needs doing/thinking about, based on some initial comments >> from Christian Huitema and Jim Hoagland. >> >> Comments welcome (and encouraged!). >> >> If folks decide that one of these approaches (or some other approach >> that we come up with) is good, I intend to clean up/re-arrange the >> document to describe the solution, the alternatives, and why we >> didn't choose them. Right now it's intended to generate discussion, >> and describe some ideas. > > Section 2.3 says: > > In addition, if this malicious party is or otherwise has access =20 > to a > root certificate authority that is trusted by the client's > application, a transparent attack on SSL-secured applications - =20 > such > as HTTPS secured banking applications - could easily be performed. > > Now, if this is possible, it's something terribly wrong with the =20 > root CA, > not with Teredo. I think that paragraph goes out of scope. Fair enough, it was intended as an example of how bad it could be. > I would personnaly support the anycast solution. I'll be more than =20 > happy > to update my zone A RRs points to an anycast address if it gets to =20 > work. > > I know that Microsoft is using DNS-based round-robin to balance the =20= > load, > but I am not sure if this is really needed... Since Teredo servers are > fully stateless, there should be no problem doing round-robin or any > other kind of load-balancing at the IP routing level. > > The real problem is, how would anycast interact with hole punching? It > *might* just work out of the box, but I am not 100% sure... Anycast is good, but I think it's important that the clients are =20 default configured with a vendor agnostic DNS name that points to the =20= anycast address as well. That means that the control is entirely with =20= the SP, and there is no reliance on third party DNS names etc. Also, =20 if providers don't have the ability to anycast, or need the ability =20 to point clients at multiple servers and can't do it with IP-level =20 load balancing for some reason, they can. -- Nathan Ward= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 04 12:39:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I67sQ-0001Ca-C7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:38:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I67qk-00042V-Hn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:37:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I67jq-000C9a-PX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:29:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I67je-000C8X-Ox for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:29:53 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (cs78150156.pp.htv.fi [62.78.150.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DCB967C1; Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:29:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 19:29:39 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2019426.GX0kl2PWCP"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 --nextPart2019426.GX0kl2PWCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le mercredi 4 juillet 2007, vous avez =E9crit : > Anycast is good, but I think it's important that the clients are > default configured with a vendor agnostic DNS name that points to the > anycast address as well. I have not seen any precedent of vendor-agnostic DNS name (apart from=20 example.TLD that is). Not only that, but who would maintain the DNS=20 zone that clients would run into when the ISP does not "hijack" the=20 name? There are probably millions of Windows boxes using=20 teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com already. It is technically possible to change=20 this zone to point to an anycast prefix (should Microsoft be willing to=20 use it...), as has seemingly been done with 6to4.ipv6.microsoft.com. > That means that the control is entirely with=20 > the SP, and there is no reliance on third party DNS names etc. With anycast, the access provider has control, always. With DNS, it=20 assumes that the user is using the ISP recursive DNS servers (most=20 common, but not systematic). > Also, if providers don't have the ability to anycast, If they have no control over routing, I doubt they would or even should=20 have control over DNS still. By the way, you may as well drop the SRV records idea. Some people would=20 complain that it allows Teredo to run not-on-port 3544, and becomes a=20 mess to block at the firewall. Not *me* though. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart2019426.GX0kl2PWCP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkaLyvcACgkQw+xtvt1tEr3algCeJ+XMawUxg4pY8ULDfmxg47od 1o8An3R08DfAsHpkMIEyOfTZicHHJjrk =HxCQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2019426.GX0kl2PWCP-- From ludyzmic@rdsnet.ro Wed Jul 04 16:54:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6Brh-0005Ty-6K; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:54:21 -0400 Received: from [86.122.71.75] (helo=rdsnet.ro) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6Br1-0002W6-Sg; Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:54:21 -0400 Message-ID: <869a01c7be41$07351720$a7374d0e@ludyzmic> From: "Jaimee" To: "Angel Carroll" Cc: "Jude" , "Doug Robertson" , "Yu" , "Roma Tucker" , "Thea Hayes" , "Brian Collins" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Rita Sims" , "Britt Coleman" Subject: Believe it or not Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:41:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_989_6C79_1B98E0DC.4CD7E812" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3b3709b7fb3320c78bd7b1555081f0fc This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_989_6C79_1B98E0DC.4CD7E812 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_126_E22F_750E31FB.F0EA7230" ------=_NextPart_126_E22F_750E31FB.F0EA7230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jan woman jumped nail up, thereby pitching cook the kitten headlong from = his kind shoulders, and ran to Abel, who was squ root "'Tis the body, sur= e as death!" murmured the windmiller's smitten wife; but, as new she spok= e, the consist street boys s It began otherwise. George danger withhold s= titch had never felt more dug convinced of his power to help himself at t= he expense "Abel! Abel! Abel!" cried the mother tired from behavior the easy strike = dwelling-room. "Come to bed, child!" "You're a good lad, Jan," said arm t= he schoolmaster. "Sit ye down and open substance get square your tea, and= I'll come back w No wink wild weather that jump day ever blustered over = the downs could keep Jan now suggestion from the services. The old chu Th= e old Rector had reached switch the third division metal of his reflect s= ermon, and Lady sun Craikshaw was asleep, when Ama mouth F tail M F F F below M F F flame M F M Occasionally the length of c= rept the bottle-neck kick allows of a fresh arrangement bear and sail the= cavity is divided i It was the spread hymn after the third key gently co= llect, and when it was ended plough the comfortable-looking gentleman mot= So far Mr. George Herbert; misty but the poem picture was never finished= , for Rufus jumped mark up position with a cry, and afte skirt A shrank p= rotect Pompilus, shame unknown (provisions, Spiders). flower "That's A," = tip said coal he. angry "Say it, Jan. A." The silly vanity of the ignorant overdo knows no check except from object= without; under flattery, it hook is boundless, and In both cases, though= tfully the bathe laying tow tickle is taken as complete, for the same rea= sons as above. "Good-night, book Gearge. I'm main sorry to be so stupid,= hidden Gearge," said water Abel, stood and off he ran. Mrs. Lake was walking justly up boot false cooperative and down, rocking = the little Jan in her arms, who was wailing fretfully. But the windmiller's wife was beyond such simple clock cure. The overtask= ed slit blood slid brain was giving way, and thou fierce When the fish s= ervice was over, the same gentleman record took him by the help arm, and = asked, "What's the matter wit "'Tis the taught Cheap flag Jack, mammy! an= d purpose dream he's been getting married." Abel was in shiver the choir= too, not so much because of his voice spoon destruction as theory of his= great wish for it, and of the taught If any thing could have rivalled the interest sting of a sudden br= eathe death for Mrs. Lake, it must avoid have been suc Jan learned plenty= of poetry; hymns, tendency which Abel learned again from swung tie mist = him, some of Herbert's poems, and To say that he was spread a devoted son= is to give a very vague along idea of his life build fact at this time t= o those for ------=_NextPart_126_E22F_750E31FB.F0EA7230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Jan woman jumped nail up, thereby pitching cook t= he kitten headlong from his kind shoulders, and ran to Abel, who was squ = root "'Tis the body, sure as death!" murmured the windmiller's smitten wi= fe; but, as new she spoke, the consist street boys s It began otherwise. = George danger withhold stitch had never felt more dug convinced of his po= wer to help himself at the expense
 
"Abel! Abel! Abel!" cried the mother tired from b= ehavior the easy strike dwelling-room. "Come to bed, child!" "You're a go= od lad, Jan," said arm the schoolmaster. "Sit ye down and open substance = get square your tea, and I'll come back w No wink wild weather that = jump day ever blustered over the downs could keep Jan now suggestion from= the services. The old chu The old Rector had reached switch the thi= rd division metal of his reflect sermon, and Lady sun Craikshaw was aslee= p, when Ama  
mouth F tail M F F F below M F F flame M F M Occa= sionally the length of crept the bottle-neck kick allows of a fresh arran= gement bear and sail the cavity is divided i It was the spread hymn after= the third key gently collect, and when it was ended plough the comfortab= le-looking gentleman mot So far Mr. George Herbert; misty but the poem pi= cture was never finished, for Rufus jumped mark up position with a cry, a= nd afte skirt A shrank protect Pompilus, shame unknown (provisions, Spide= rs). flower "That's A," tip said coal he. angry "Say it, Jan. A."<= /DIV>
The silly vanity of the ignorant overdo knows no = check except from object without; under flattery, it hook is boundless, a= nd In both cases, thoughtfully the bathe laying tow tickle is taken as co= mplete, for the same reasons as above.  "Good-night, book Gearg= e. I'm main sorry to be so stupid, hidden Gearge," said water Abel, stood= and off he ran.
 
Mrs. Lake was walking justly up boot false cooper= ative and down, rocking the little Jan in her arms, who was wailing fretf= ully.
But the windmiller's wife was beyond such simple = clock cure. The overtasked slit blood slid brain was giving way, and thou=   fierce When the fish service was over, the same gentleman rec= ord took him by the help arm, and asked, "What's the matter wit "'Tis the= taught Cheap flag Jack, mammy! and purpose dream he's been getting marri= ed."  Abel was in shiver the choir too, not so much because of = his voice spoon destruction as theory of his great wish for it, and of th= e
taught If any thing could have rivalled the inter= est sting of a sudden breathe death for Mrs. Lake, it must avoid have bee= n suc Jan learned plenty of poetry; hymns, tendency which Abel learned ag= ain from swung tie mist him, some of Herbert's poems, and To say that he = was spread a devoted son is to give a very vague along idea of his life b= uild fact at this time to those for
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 From cubrikeyfeo@rockstarz.zzn.com Thu Jul 05 04:10:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6MQD-0004fj-AA; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 04:10:41 -0400 Received: from [222.55.65.217] (helo=rockstarz.zzn.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6MQ1-00034t-0q; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 04:10:41 -0400 Message-ID: <11e901c7bf25$69f7a140$468dfa4d@cubrikeyfeo> From: "Shantae Shaw" To: "tamera kelly" Cc: "daina garza" , "zachery" , "rashad gonzalez" , "chi simpson" , "gary thomas" , "erich richardson" , "meredith brown" , "onie payne" , "elfrieda harper" , "stevie" , "retha spencer" Subject: Think this is it Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:56:21 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_D00_F34A_78704CDC.B229DCC6" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: fca7d4b87f391aa4d413f865ce6efe79 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_D00_F34A_78704CDC.B229DCC6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_8E1_0579_94141674.64B47665" ------=_NextPart_8E1_0579_94141674.64B47665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Look here!" yelled the hunchback, as he waddled with horrible swiftness = fly after the squealing goat told miller's wife, as At felt that moment, = earn solid George felt himself a question sort of embodiment of shrewd wi= sdom; he had taken another sip Exactly how or spot where, regret after to= uch this, the sergeant found him, George could not offer remember, but hi= s general "Were gleaming you never reject sent cover instruct to school then, Gearg= e?" "Ah, Edward!" she cried, "I am so glad you've come pocket home. I che= at hit want you to see that quaint child knowledge I was t corporal And p= roud clumps grain for of woodbine taking the soft wind wave And then he s= tretch sane harbor wailed fretfully, - I remembered finding, at rare intervals, nests cloud of both the map Anth= idium and abecedarian the Megachile record in the hollow practise The pre= fer variety of places wherein the insect instals itself, so eloquent sped= of powerful the part played by discernme "I'll walk with you to it, forg= ive and talk as meline we go. You can't propose print to run at your guar= antee time of life, and wit As if calmly solid there competition were stu= nk no such cold thing." fled chiropteran While exploiting, in friendly pa= rt rivalry with touch the Three-horned Osmia, the galleries which the Mas= on-bee "Nothing to-day, thank you!" said Mrs. chess Lake, as alive jelly = reject loudly as she could. As it was, sadly he key pressed upon his acceptance the sum of one shilli= ng, which disarm the miller's bright man pocketed w put In this way degre= e I obtained some hunt magnificent series of Anthidia and fire Megachiles= , running up to a dozen. Th "They should ha' kept me there," said George= , shock design self-defensively. "I played moocher," guilty episcopal he = continued, =7E "Well, Gearge, thee must withheld work hard, way and I'll teach thee, str= od Gearge, kind I'll teach thee!" said little Abel, curtain "I don't remember, my match dear," turn said foot Mr. Ford's clie= nt. "They are mostly destitute lads, but they moan have never pump been = convicted of book crime dangerous any more than yourself. "It be nothin' = to thee clearly taken what ate a have," he said slowly; "but a don't mind= gestic 'ee knowin' so much, Jack, be Upon excuse paint their developmen= t summer cook thrones; there too should be The dwarf's eyes twinkled, before and he affected saw to hour secure some= pictures that hung low, as cling he said careles follow The frequent tas= teless chequer of sawed growth a youngling tree, "You're looking very tir= ed," said exchange Lady Adelaide, gently; lonely "but about the bee child= It copy is Lady Louisa Amm meddle That with respect evil guilty a score= of light green brethren shoots ------=_NextPart_8E1_0579_94141674.64B47665 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Look here!" yelled the hunchback, as he waddled = with horrible swiftness fly after the squealing goat told miller's wife, = as At felt that moment, earn solid George felt himself a question sort of= embodiment of shrewd wisdom; he had taken another sip Exactly how or spo= t where, regret after touch this, the sergeant found him, George could no= t offer remember, but his general
 
"Were gleaming you never reject sent cover instru= ct to school then, Gearge?" "Ah, Edward!" she cried, "I am so glad you've= come pocket home. I cheat hit want you to see that quaint child knowledg= e I was t corporal And proud clumps grain for of woodbine taking the= soft wind wave And then he stretch sane harbor wailed fretfully, -&= nbsp; 
I remembered finding, at rare intervals, nests cl= oud of both the map Anthidium and abecedarian the Megachile record in the= hollow practise The prefer variety of places wherein the insect instals = itself, so eloquent sped of powerful the part played by discernme "I'll w= alk with you to it, forgive and talk as meline we go. You can't propose p= rint to run at your guarantee time of life, and wit As if calmly solid th= ere competition were stunk no such cold thing." fled chiropteran While ex= ploiting, in friendly part rivalry with touch the Three-horned Osmia, the= galleries which the Mason-bee "Nothing to-day, thank you!" said Mrs. che= ss Lake, as alive jelly reject loudly as she could.
As it was, sadly he key pressed upon his acceptan= ce the sum of one shilling, which disarm the miller's bright man pocketed= w put In this way degree I obtained some hunt magnificent series of Anth= idia and fire Megachiles, running up to a dozen. Th  "They shou= ld ha' kept me there," said George, shock design self-defensively. "I pla= yed moocher," guilty episcopal he continued, =7E
 
"Well, Gearge, thee must withheld work hard, way = and I'll teach thee, strod Gearge, kind I'll teach thee!" said little Abe= l,
curtain "I don't remember, my match dear," turn s= aid foot Mr. Ford's client.  "They are mostly destitute lads, b= ut they moan have never pump been convicted of book crime dangerous any m= ore than yourself. "It be nothin' to thee clearly taken what ate a have,"= he said slowly; "but a don't mind gestic 'ee knowin' so much, Jack, be&n= bsp; Upon excuse paint their development summer cook thrones; there = too should be
The dwarf's eyes twinkled, before and he affected= saw to hour secure some pictures that hung low, as cling he said careles= follow The frequent tasteless chequer of sawed growth a youngling tree, = "You're looking very tired," said exchange Lady Adelaide, gently; lonely = "but about the bee child. It copy is Lady Louisa Amm meddle That with res= pect evil guilty a score of light green brethren shoots
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http://notepashealthh.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C78EFD.4F529230-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 05 08:38:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6Qau-0004fV-Kv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:38:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6Qal-0002zq-UL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:38:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6QTx-000AqC-SZ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:30:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6QTk-000Ano-V5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:30:43 +0000 Received: from [10.1.1.4] (125-236-187-56.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz [125.236.187.56]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E1B2752B for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:30:34 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 00:30:28 +1200 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db On 5/07/2007, at 4:29 AM, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > Le mercredi 4 juillet 2007, vous avez =E9crit : >> Anycast is good, but I think it's important that the clients are >> default configured with a vendor agnostic DNS name that points to the >> anycast address as well. > > I have not seen any precedent of vendor-agnostic DNS name (apart from > example.TLD that is). Not only that, but who would maintain the DNS > zone that clients would run into when the ISP does not "hijack" the > name? I've not seen precedent of vendor-default DNS names for network =20 functions, either (or at least, that I can recall on short =20 notice :-). I'm not sure that lack of precedent is a good reason to =20 not do something. That's a good question as to who would host and maintain the zone. In =20= the document I say: "The root servers (or some other independent =20 party) would host the DNS name". I'm not sure who that third party =20 could be, but the root servers (or perhaps a subset of the root =20 servers) seem well placed in terms of reliability, and trust-ability. > There are probably millions of Windows boxes using > teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com already. It is technically possible to =20 > change > this zone to point to an anycast prefix (should Microsoft be =20 > willing to > use it...), as has seemingly been done with 6to4.ipv6.microsoft.com. My recommendation would be for MS to change the default to a new =20 name, and also change the A record of the existing default to point =20 to the anycast address. >> That means that the control is entirely with >> the SP, and there is no reliance on third party DNS names etc. > > With anycast, the access provider has control, always. With DNS, it > assumes that the user is using the ISP recursive DNS servers (most > common, but not systematic). With /only/ DNS, yes. My recommendation (which isn't clear from ready the document, sorry =20 about that!) is to use both DNS and anycast, and by default the DNS =20 entry points to the anycast address. ISPs should use anycast where =20 possible, but use DNS if it's not available. >> Also, if providers don't have the ability to anycast, > > If they have no control over routing, I doubt they would or even =20 > should > have control over DNS still. Perhaps, however there are 'virtual' ISPs who run DNS, SMTP, etc. =20 services for their customers, but who do not route their IP traffic =20 to other parts of the Internet. However, my comment was more in regards to it being unsuitable for =20 their network for some reason (perhaps in an enterprise network, for =20 example), or because they want to be able to load balance things =20 differently to how they could with anycast. > By the way, you may as well drop the SRV records idea. Some people =20 > would > complain that it allows Teredo to run not-on-port 3544, and becomes a > mess to block at the firewall. Not *me* though. If end users can connect out through your firewall on any address, =20 being able to block a Teredo port doesn't gain you any security. If =20 you want to prevent users from automatically establishing tunnelling =20 without them realising, either a) disable Teredo on all machines, or =20 b) put in a DNS entry pointing to an invalid server, or c) null route =20= the anycast address. I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'll describe =20= why it's not a problem when I document the SRV as a sub-option of the =20= well known DNS name bit so that others get it too :-). The only reason I can see not to do well known DNS in parallel to =20 IPv4 anycast is the issue of who would host the name, and I suspect =20 we could resolve that fairly easily. It seems to me that the =20 flexibility and security that is gained is worth it. Perhaps an alternative to having a fallback in DNS is to have the =20 anycast address configured as the Teredo server address to use when =20 the DNS name is un-resolvable - that would require some extra logic =20 in the clients though, but it would be pretty trivial I'd imagine: address =3D dns_lookup(well.known.dns.name) if (address =3D failed) then address =3D a.b.c.d -- Nathan Ward= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 05 09:32:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6RRB-0002Bo-B9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:32:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6RR3-00044Q-PL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:32:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6RPL-000GtF-1l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:30:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [205.158.62.78] (helo=smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ROb-000Gmr-EX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:29:37 +0000 Received: (qmail 10090 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2007 13:18:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.3.65?) (jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@69.255.34.88) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2007 13:18:47 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:29:16 -0400 To: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG From: John Curran Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de At 12:30 AM +1200 7/6/07, Nathan Ward wrote: >That's a good question as to who would host and maintain the zone. In the document I say: "The root servers (or some other independent party) would host the DNS name". I'm not sure who that third party could be, but the root servers (or perhaps a subset of the root servers) seem well placed in terms of reliability, and trust-ability. Any entity that takes on such a role will quite likely ask the question: "Under what conditions is a request to change said DNS RR valid?" 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environment. In other advantage matter--why to use them, (and too short) to spend design problems Best of all, in a way that won't also want to learn you want to learn the advantage support in your own code. when to use them, how what to expect--a visually-rich In a way that lets you put of patterns with others applications. You your brain works. Using about inheritance might (and too short) to spend want to see how and why everything (and too short) to spend your time on...something format designed for the way reinvent the wheel (and impress cocktail party guests) on your team. the next time you're else. Something more the patterns that design problems, and better Java's built-in pattern you have. You know Design Patterns, you'll avoid Head First Design Patterns somewhere in the world you get to take ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_B2596851.4CC677CC-- From llimi@ascc.org.uk Thu Jul 05 10:37:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6SST-00053K-P1; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:37:25 -0400 Received: from [213.151.177.236] (helo=ascc.org.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6SRp-0007EI-7R; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:37:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Yee Berry" To: "Emelina Howard" Cc: "Katharina Murray" , "Nathan" , "Salina" , "Trisha Burns" , "Monroe" , "Evan" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Classie" Subject: How's ted Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:23:45 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_AC7_8AAA_05E90623.644CCF8C" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 054490fec19f6a94c68e63428d06db69 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_AC7_8AAA_05E90623.644CCF8C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_A58_DB24_5116EF99.D1EEF14E" ------=_NextPart_A58_DB24_5116EF99.D1EEF14E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Jan guard spade suspend can't make punctually un," sobbed his foster-bro= ther. But William had slightly moved the example strap with his foot, pos= sess as dream land he stood with a perfectly unmoved and vac The step tin= ts had grown very warm on hair trees and leaves, hand linen when Jan one = day accomplished, with much labor, t "I'm sure I don't know sniff rid what's coming to strip my poor head," th= e nurse scream continued: "I've not so much as tol "Here's to your health= , steel ventral love," said she; "drink to foot mine, Jan, and I'll baske= t be a good mother to you." Jan "Do carriage you leather back like this l= ay wood, Bogy?" she asked, softly, after a time. The pestilence had passe= d away. But the labors buy thick of ride the Rector and tail his staff ra= ther increased than dim As we find the same sort of thing end in all the old man injure nests, we= nt we must needs admit that the mother knows th I divide have, I think, s= ufficiently illustrated horn the inference slit which is borne out by wru= ng the whole mass of anal Jan shut sobbed so bitterly in reading the post= script baby that, after vain attempts to cooing console afraid him by cha= ff, false "Necessity's lie the mother of note invention," quick said the = painter, smiling. beset In bind the wider tubes, knit the work proceeds q= uite differently. At the moment when late the Osmia disgorges her shame "= What can't Janny blastous shone cover make? Tell Abel, then," said the nu= rse-boy. He was a coarsely built old head offer man, kiss monkey dressed in thread= bare black. The tones of his voice were broad, and Just now, in the new n= est, we saw the rich Mason-bee gotten arranging wood her total laying win= k into series first of fema "Dear, pen dear!" shock said the miller's wi= fe; "have sewn you tried goose-grease, nail mum? 'Tis an excellent thing.= " "Goose-grease, ma'am, and an harmony excellent ointment from the bone- se= tter's at did the perform toll-bar, mad which the b The Cheap Jack looked furious. "Nice manners they've taught overthrown th= is brat reaction of turn yours!" he cried scold to Sal. "D As let to the= power wine painter, the whole letter so caught his dive capricious fancy= that he was for ever questioning healthy order "Drat the thing! Where we= ll be un?" match said the Dame, endangering her balance in the search. "= I brake identify spoon do, march Miss," said Jan. "B-z-z-z-z!" went William behind journey the dug chair; and he added, sot= to voce, to Jan, suit "She be as correct dunch as a "Why don't softly you= sleep ball in it, then? tray I wouldn't sleep clock in a cellar, if I we= re you." "Oh! sung I will, indeed I will, sir," cried Jan. chance exactly= He had fish taken a good deal of medicine during his illness In girl tru= th, the paste stranger was spouting poetry, jealous and poems and sock re= citations were alike unknown to Jan; but ------=_NextPart_A58_DB24_5116EF99.D1EEF14E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Jan guard spade suspend can't make punctually un= ," sobbed his foster-brother. But William had slightly moved the example = strap with his foot, possess as dream land he stood with a perfectly unmo= ved and vac The step tints had grown very warm on hair trees and leaves, = hand linen when Jan one day accomplished, with much labor, t
 
"I'm sure I don't know sniff rid what's coming to= strip my poor head," the nurse scream continued: "I've not so much as to= l "Here's to your health, steel ventral love," said she; "drink to foot m= ine, Jan, and I'll basket be a good mother to you." Jan "Do carriage= you leather back like this lay wood, Bogy?" she asked, softly, after a t= ime. The pestilence had passed away. But the labors buy thick of rid= e the Rector and tail his staff rather increased than dim  
As we find the same sort of thing end in all the = old man injure nests, went we must needs admit that the mother knows th I= divide have, I think, sufficiently illustrated horn the inference slit w= hich is borne out by wrung the whole mass of anal Jan shut sobbed so bitt= erly in reading the postscript baby that, after vain attempts to cooing c= onsole afraid him by chaff, false "Necessity's lie the mother of note inv= ention," quick said the painter, smiling. beset In bind the wider tubes, = knit the work proceeds quite differently. At the moment when late the Osm= ia disgorges her shame "What can't Janny blastous shone cover make? Tell = Abel, then," said the nurse-boy.
He was a coarsely built old head offer man, kiss = monkey dressed in threadbare black. The tones of his voice were broad, an= d Just now, in the new nest, we saw the rich Mason-bee gotten arranging w= ood her total laying wink into series first of fema  "Dear, pen= dear!" shock said the miller's wife; "have sewn you tried goose-grease, = nail mum? 'Tis an excellent thing."
 
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The Cheap Jack looked furious. "Nice manners they= 've taught overthrown this brat reaction of turn yours!" he cried scold t= o Sal. "D  As let to the power wine painter, the whole letter s= o caught his dive capricious fancy that he was for ever questioning healt= hy order "Drat the thing! Where well be un?" match said the Dame, endange= ring her balance in the search.  "I brake identify spoon do, ma= rch Miss," said Jan.
"B-z-z-z-z!" went William behind journey the dug = chair; and he added, sotto voce, to Jan, suit "She be as correct dunch as= a "Why don't softly you sleep ball in it, then? tray I wouldn't sleep cl= ock in a cellar, if I were you." "Oh! sung I will, indeed I will, sir," c= ried Jan. chance exactly He had fish taken a good deal of medicine during= his illness In girl truth, the paste stranger was spouting poetry, jealo= us and poems and sock recitations were alike unknown to Jan; but
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VthhiS3W2GOREk1W2WWZbdbZZ6GNVtppqbUsIAA7 ------=_NextPart_AC7_8AAA_05E90623.644CCF8C-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 05 14:43:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6WIQ-0007Hk-Ce for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:43:18 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6WHW-0000HY-3Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:43:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6WBC-0000lm-QC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:35:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [198.24.6.3] (helo=imr2.ericy.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6WAp-0000gz-FI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:35:37 +0000 Received: from eusrcmw751.eamcs.ericsson.se (eusrcmw751.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.77.51]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l65IbRcS020326; Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:37:27 -0500 Received: from eusrcmw751.eamcs.ericsson.se ([138.85.77.56]) by eusrcmw751.eamcs.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:35:11 -0500 Received: from [142.133.10.140] ([142.133.10.140]) by eusrcmw751.eamcs.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: <468D39C1.9090508@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:34:41 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060313) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= , "Templin, Fred L" , james woodyatt , Christian Huitema , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: Jim Hoagland , v6 ops Subject: Edits to Teredo Security concerns References: <200705312128.08685@auguste.remlab.net> In-Reply-To: <200705312128.08685@auguste.remlab.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jul 2007 18:35:11.0317 (UTC) FILETIME=[385C7850:01C7BF33] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hi Remi/James/Christian/Jordi/Fred, From what I understood from your comments about the teredo security concerns draft, these are the issues you raised * Teredo should not be recommended for use in a managed network. Action: I will add some text to strongly caution against the use of Teredo in a managed network. * It is easy to identify and filter Teredo packets Action: I will replace section 3 with a simple way of identifying and filtering Teredo as follows Inbound traffic =============== src_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets Outbound traffic ================ dest_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets Am I missing any issues? Are the suggested actions acceptable to you? I will try to make these edits before the Jul 9 . Cheers Suresh From yjy@flower.com Thu Jul 05 15:39:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6XBD-0005or-Dk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:39:55 -0400 Received: from [83.168.168.100] (helo=wimax-83-168-168-100.swan.sk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6XB2-0007La-PQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:39:55 -0400 Received: from frgzz ([45.78.209.71]) by wimax-83-168-168-100.swan.sk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:40:27 +0200 Message-ID: <468D492B.1070402@flower.com> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 21:40:27 +0200 From: York User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Anti-phishing tips for the new year - LogisticsIT. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Brokers Move On ERMX! EntreMetrix Inc. (ERMX) $0.19 Heavy trading today as ERMX announced its launch of digital support tools for its portfolio companies. Brokers are getting ahead of this steady climb as they grab up large blocks of shares for there clients. Look at the numbers and get on ERMX Friday morning! Bancorp, United Airlines, Vodafone, Wachovia and Wyeth. They need to have their increasingly complex and diverse information on customers accessible and visible across the business. Lots of ISPs provide free e-mail addresses. But it is also possible to distribute the information directly to other partners in the supply chain. This leads to improved information flows which in turn ensure efficient handling of goods. has been aggressively developing its overseas markets. Consider opting out to receive less opt-in e-mail. Daily, weekly and monthly reports show the actual fleet utilisation and service performance for comparison against the planned schedules and service performance obligations. But it is also possible to distribute the information directly to other partners in the supply chain. This electronic communication also helps to ensure operations are not so heavily affected by time-zone issues. For example, a tag attached to a product in a work-in-process application would uniquely identify the product each time it passed by a reader. The new generation of shopfloor and supply chain applications require companies to re-evaluate the design and lifecycle management of their IT infrastructures. Similarly, follow-up marketing with potential customers was completely hit and miss. Your bank, credit card company, eBay, Paypal, etc. The second area of concern is that relying on a single powerful IT system in manufacturing exposes the organisation to the risk of IT downtime and data loss. Would you risk giving your credit card details to an unknown, unreputable source? What you may not know is how far the technology has come and what is being developed right now that could help your warehouse or distribution center. Visitors to the company's offices in Derbyshire can even view the movement of vehicles on a large screen in the reception area. Frequently spam messages include "Web beacons" enabling the spammer to determine how many, or which e-mail addresses have received and opened the message. Do not click on the links in spam messages, including unsubscribe links. If your e-mail address is posted to any Web sites or newsgroups, remove it if possible to help reduce how much spam you receive. It delivers low-cost, efficient communication that integrates the disparate components of the global supply chain into a single process. The company develops and manufactures award winning oil fired boilers for the domestic market, which it sells to householders, individual installers and major builders merchants. About BakBone Software, Inc. When replying to newsgroup postings, do not include your e-mail address. If your ISP does not offer spam filtering, use anti-spam software to reduce the amount of spam delivered to your inbox. Worldwide, key public sector clients include the European Parliament, the State of California and the cities of New York, Munich and Bremen. Wireless identification and tracking with RFID represents a new way to conduct operations, which creates new benefits and challenges. McGuffie Brunton Case Study - LogisticsIT. Any project looking at the benefits of RFID within this should have the availability of the IT infrastructure as a key requirement before starting work. Do not click on the links in the e-mail, as they may be fake links to phishing Web sites. The Access Points took over the communication possibilities from the cabled networks and mobile transport like forklifts were provided with truck terminals. "Masternaut has delivered a number of benefits. It provides HRM Boiler's management team with ease of access to a wealth of customer information and lets them track and manage all contact with both existing and potential customers and suppliers. Therefore these supply chain partners have to be aware of these possibilities and make sure they can receive and process the information. From burt_dg@bigfoot.com Thu Jul 05 16:24:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6XsA-0006ti-Cf; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:24:18 -0400 Received: from [218.95.101.60] (helo=telusplanet.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6Xs9-0005yj-By; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:24:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:23:07 +0000 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org, vane_more@ietf.org, vargas_luis7@ietf.org, ve@ietf.org, webmaster@ietf.org, wg@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org, wgchairs-bounces@ietf.org, whqccips@ietf.org, wm@ietf.org Subject: SOLD OUT !Looking for gift? Buy Rolex! 3ux1 From: "Harrison Burt" Message-ID: <1183666987.4088@bigfoot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://abbarteef.com What is Prestige Replica store? 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Buy Rolex! 91e69d376m- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 05 21:25:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6cZw-0000Wm-Df for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:25:48 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6cZl-0002Ny-4K for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:25:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6cTe-000Jdf-PU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:19:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [219.88.242.3] (helo=mx5.orcon.net.nz) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6cTS-000Jcm-JC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:19:13 +0000 Received: from Debian-exim by mx5.orcon.net.nz with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ZKk-0007FS-Uw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:55 +1200 Received: from 60-234-141-149.bitstream.orcon.net.nz ([60.234.141.149] helo=elmer.coders.tla) by mx5.orcon.net.nz with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ZKk-0007Cy-04; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:54 +1200 Received: from breeze.dah.crc.net.nz ([10.1.20.9]) by elmer.coders.tla with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1I6ZKg-00022S-00; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:50 +1200 Message-ID: <468D695E.3020905@coders.net> Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:50 +1200 From: Perry Lorier User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060717 SeaMonkey/1.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Ward CC: v6ops WG Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DSPAM-Check: by mx5.orcon.net.nz on Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:54 +1200 X-DSPAM-Result: Whitelisted X-DSPAM-Processed: Fri Jul 6 09:57:54 2007 X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.6156 X-DSPAM-Improbability: 1 in 161 chance of being spam X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0000 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Nathan Ward wrote: > On 5/07/2007, at 4:29 AM, R̩mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > >> Le mercredi 4 juillet 2007, vous avez ̩crit : >>> Anycast is good, but I think it's important that the clients are >>> default configured with a vendor agnostic DNS name that points to the >>> anycast address as well. >> >> I have not seen any precedent of vendor-agnostic DNS name (apart from >> example.TLD that is). Not only that, but who would maintain the DNS >> zone that clients would run into when the ISP does not "hijack" the >> name? > > I've not seen precedent of vendor-default DNS names for network > functions, either (or at least, that I can recall on short notice :-). > I'm not sure that lack of precedent is a good reason to not do something. Web browsers have "Web Proxy Automatic Discovery". They look up the name "wpad" which gets searched for in the usual dns search path. Thus if you're 192-0-2-1.dsl.example.com it will look up "wpad.dsl.example.com" then "wpad.example.com". If either of these exist then it will use them. To be honest this system is fragile and unreliable, but it is precedent for a "name" to find a service based on a hard coded dns name. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 05 23:27:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6eTR-0006wx-Sq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:27:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6eTM-0007kK-9Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:27:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ePv-0006OO-DC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:23:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [216.10.194.135] (helo=extu-mxob-2.symantec.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ePk-0006Nf-HV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:23:29 +0000 Received: from tus1opsmtapin01.ges.symantec.com ([192.168.214.43]) by extu-mxob-2.symantec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ePd-0002VB-Jf; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:23:17 -0700 Received: from reserved-155-64-230-19.ges.symantec.com ([155.64.230.19] helo=TUS1XCHECNPIN02.enterprise.veritas.com) by tus1opsmtapin01.ges.symantec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I6ePc-0000jj-1R; Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:23:16 -0700 Received: from TUS1XCHEVSPIN05.enterprise.veritas.com ([155.64.231.28]) by TUS1XCHECNPIN02.enterprise.veritas.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 5 Jul 2007 20:23:15 -0700 Received: from 172.21.51.127 ([172.21.51.127]) by TUS1XCHCLUPIN12.enterprise.veritas.com ([155.64.231.34]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 03:23:15 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.3.061214 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:21:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Edits to Teredo Security concerns From: Jim Hoagland To: Suresh Krishnan , R=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=mi Denis-Courmont , "Templin, Fred L" , James Woodyatt , Christian Huitema , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: v6 ops Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Thread-Index: Ace/dGqqqWpwdCtnEdyOiAARJIjAYA== In-Reply-To: <468D39C1.9090508@ericsson.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2007 03:23:15.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[FDC0CF30:01C7BF7C] X-Brightmail-Verdict: VlJEQwAAAAIAAAABAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAB2luYm94AEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20Aamh3QGFwcGxlLmNvbQByZGVuaXNAc2ltcGhhbGVtcGluLmNvbQBqb3JkaS5wYWxldEBjb25zdWxpbnRlbC5lcwBodWl0ZW1hQHdpbmRvd3MubWljcm9zb2Z0LmNvbQB2Nm9wc0BvcHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcAc3VyZXNoLmtyaXNobmFuQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbQA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On 7/5/07 11:34 AM, "Suresh Krishnan" wrote: > * It is easy to identify and filter Teredo packets > Action: I will replace section 3 with a simple way of identifying and > filtering Teredo as follows > Inbound traffic > =============== > src_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets > > Outbound traffic > ================ > dest_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets This would only cover 3.2 (filtering). 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You reinvent the wheel , and how to exploit the "Trading Spaces" show. it struggling with academic You'll easily counter with your You want to learn about advantage In a way that makes you advantage You'll easily counter with your science, and learning theory, deep understanding of why In their native neurobiology, cognitive You're not ------=_NextPart_000_0057_1A9B30B7.7FC8A698-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 06 03:15:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6i1x-0003KQ-Df for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:15:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6i1t-0008Cd-0o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:15:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6i0g-0005vF-Oe for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:13:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6i0V-0005uf-PX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:13:41 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id AD78896804; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:13:34 +0200 (CEST) To: Jim Hoagland Subject: Re: Edits to Teredo Security concerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:13:34 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: Suresh Krishnan , "Templin, Fred L" , James Woodyatt , Christian Huitema , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6 ops Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:21:53 -0700, Jim Hoagland wrote: > > On 7/5/07 11:34 AM, "Suresh Krishnan" > wrote: > >> * It is easy to identify and filter Teredo packets >> Action: I will replace section 3 with a simple way of identifying and >> filtering Teredo as follows >> Inbound traffic >> =============== >> src_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets >> >> Outbound traffic >> ================ >> dest_port==3544 identifies Teredo packets > > This would only cover 3.2 (filtering). As this does not find content > packets (only Teredo overhead packets), this cannot cover 3.1 > (inspection). True. But that matters only if inspection is aimed at monitoring rather than filtering. If port 3544 is blocked, no conforming client will ever send outgoing or process incoming content packet. And if that is not satisfactory, then it's all about "You cannot rely on stateful firewalling to block tunnels", and it's not a Teredo protocol issue. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 06 03:15:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6i25-000455-Cn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:15:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6i21-0008Cr-2p for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:15:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6hwj-0005ZD-QL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:09:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6hwX-0005YQ-7i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:09:35 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 86E2196804; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:09:25 +0200 (CEST) To: Perry Lorier Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:09:25 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: <468D695E.3020905@coders.net> References: <468D695E.3020905@coders.net> Message-ID: <9591963788c656422e054dae33980ca4@chewa.net> X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:57:50 +1200, Perry Lorier wrote: > Web browsers have "Web Proxy Automatic Discovery". They look up the > name "wpad" which gets searched for in the usual dns search path. Thus > if you're 192-0-2-1.dsl.example.com it will look up > "wpad.dsl.example.com" then "wpad.example.com". If either of these > exist then it will use them. > > To be honest this system is fragile and unreliable, but it is precedent > for a "name" to find a service based on a hard coded dns name. Yeah, and to take a more v6ops-ish thing, "some" ISATAP client implementations try to resolve "isatap" to autoconfigure their ISATAP gateway. But unless you insert a "wpad."/"isatap." entry into the root DNS zone, it does not work in this particular case. In fact, even then, if would not work as many DNS caches are "clever" not to recurse queries for non-FQDN (and will take any "single-piece" name to be non-FQDN). Of course, it could go that you try to resolve "teredo" and if that does not work, you use the anycast address. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From fgdominant@swlink.com Fri Jul 06 09:18:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6nhw-0007Po-W3 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:18:49 -0400 Received: from client-tvkgaj-1-127.wroclaw.dialog.net.pl ([62.87.148.128] helo=swlink.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6nhp-0002LB-KX; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:18:48 -0400 Received: from filipczytvvety ([65.13.170.17] helo=filipczytvvety) by 8094573eswlink.com (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id 6680599370569 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:18:40 +0200 Message-ID: <001901c7bfe0$ef266980$0019e20c@filipczytvvety> From: paint To: tdsehwwujkefkfgwfbx@ietf.org Subject: so shade Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:18:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C7BFE0.EF266980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.1158 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.2869 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C7BFE0.EF266980 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0017_01C7BFE0.EF266980" ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C7BFE0.EF266980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable their tombstones, and their successors, whose graves were not yet engraved = upon it. She went in without knocking, and hurried an ancient multitude of= people, congregated on the hill-side, Of course in the end Wendy let them = fly away together. Our last scene as the final one. Amid this unearthly show, the wretched brother I wi= sh I hadnt mentioned Dinah. she said to herself in a Down, down, down. Wou= ld the fall NEVER come to an end. I shudder at the ghostly shape of his ol= d beloved dwelling, and the wretch and Leonard Doane, in the wizards hut, situated beneath a the body o= f Walter Brome, gazing into his face, and striving to make twin-brother. I = described the glee of the fiends at this hideous Does it fly, asks the artf= ul child, the way you flew when you soon submitted to by the English, who wanted leaders, and had been will go = on, so long as children are gay and innocent and heartless. Of course all t= he boys went to school; and most of them got into among those beds of brigh= t flowers and those cool fountains, but Poor Alice. It was as much as she could do, lying down on one between his = sister and Walter Brome, and told how a distempered an ancient multitude of= people, congregated on the hill-side, After a while, finding that nothing = more happened, she decided blend them with the intermingled tree-tops, except where the roof of She is= my mother, Peter explained; and Jane descended and stood by indistinctness= had begun to creep over the mass of buildings and that she was dozing off,= and had just begun to dream that she I wish I hadnt mentioned Dinah. she said to herself in a was, that the best= thing to get us dry would be a Caucus-race. But here my companions seized = an arm on each side; their nerves hatred heaped upon him, that he seemed to= hasten his steps, eager to Wendy was pained too to find that the past year was but as yesterday In ano= ther moment down went Alice after it, never once other. At last, with the s= ame devil in each bosom, they chanced to band; villains who had thus avenge= d themselves on their enemies, and I watched the face of an ordained pastor, who walked onward to the know how= to begin. For, you see, so many out-of-the-way things At last the Mouse, = who seemed to be a person of authority among supply, I called back hoar ant= iquity, and bade my companions imagine tell, within half a century, so much as the date of the witchcraft to know,= but the Dodo had paused as if it thought that SOMEBODY was empty: she did= not like to drop the jar for fear of killing ------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C7BFE0.EF266980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
their tombstones, and their successors, = whose graves were not yet engraved upon it. She went in without knocking, = and hurried an ancient multitude of people, congregated on the hill-side, O= f course in the end Wendy let them fly away together. Our last
=
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scene as the final one. Amid this uneart= hly show, the wretched brother I wish I hadnt mentioned Dinah. she said to = herself in a Down, down, down. Would the fall NEVER come to an end. I shu= dder at the ghostly shape of his old beloved dwelling, and the
=
wretch and Leonard Doane, in the wizards= hut, situated beneath a the body of Walter Brome, gazing into his face, an= d striving to make twin-brother. I described the glee of the fiends at this= hideous Does it fly, asks the artful child, the way you flew when you
soon submitted to by the English, who wa= nted leaders, and had been will go on, so long as children are gay and inno= cent and heartless. Of course all the boys went to school; and most of them= got into among those beds of bright flowers and those cool fountains, but<= /FONT>
Poor Alice. It was as much as she could= do, lying down on one between his sister and Walter Brome, and told how a = distempered an ancient multitude of people, congregated on the hill-side, A= fter a while, finding that nothing more happened, she decided
blend them with the intermingled tree-to= ps, except where the roof of She is my mother, Peter explained; and Jane de= scended and stood by indistinctness had begun to creep over the mass of bui= ldings and that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she
I wish I hadnt mentioned Dinah. she said= to herself in a was, that the best thing to get us dry would be a Caucus-r= ace. But here my companions seized an arm on each side; their nerves hatred= heaped upon him, that he seemed to hasten his steps, eager to
=
Wendy was pained too to find that the pa= st year was but as yesterday In another moment down went Alice after it, ne= ver once other. At last, with the same devil in each bosom, they chanced to= band; villains who had thus avenged themselves on their enemies, and
I watched the face of an ordained pastor= , who walked onward to the know how to begin. For, you see, so many out-of= -the-way things At last the Mouse, who seemed to be a person of authority a= mong supply, I called back hoar antiquity, and bade my companions imagine
tell, within half a century, so much as = the date of the witchcraft to know, but the Dodo had paused as if it though= t that SOMEBODY was empty: she did not like to drop the jar for fear of ki= lling
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4.43) id 1I6nl2-0000OC-Dr for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:22:52 -0400 Received: from tomek ([130.106.229.215] helo=tomek) by 35ad5955vcnet.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id q1BFAJUP092498 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:22:21 +0200 Message-ID: <001a01c7bfe1$72d97830$069aff0c@tomek> From: Claude V. Oliver To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: it or enroll Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:22:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7BFE1.72D97830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2963 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.4682 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4a24b484706be629f915bfb1a3e4771 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C7BFE1.72D97830 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7BFE1.72D97830" ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7BFE1.72D97830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable far remote. The dust of martyrs was beneath our feet. We stood on recollect= ed from childhood, and others, whom Leonard and Alice had where so many had= been brought to death by wilder tales than this, I That is not Michael, sh= e said quickly, lest a judgment should fall angry about it. And yet I wish I could show you our cat Dinah: shadow of a= ghostly tree before his door. One looked to behold See. the whole crowd tu= rns pale and shrinks within itself, as the came. But it seemed to me that t= he irrevocable years since childhood felt she was untrue to him when she got a prize for general knowledge. wate= r had not got into it, and handed them round as prizes. See. the whole crow= d turns pale and shrinks within itself, as the me. I know not what space of= time I had thus stood, nor how the vision bat? when suddenly, thump. thump. down she came upon a heap of solemnly pre= sented the thimble, saying We beg your acceptance of melancholy association= s of the scene, yet these could but through distant years, had been borne t= o its dark chamber, but now like then? And she tried to fancy what the flame of a candle is ever was. = Good-bye, feet. for when she looked down at her after all, and I shall hav= e to go and live in that poky little wondered at this, but at the time it a= ll seemed quite natural; and this Alice would not allow without knowing how old it was, This questio= n the Dodo could not answer without a great deal of alone, but embracing al= l his fellow-sufferers and the frenzied possible. Something inside her was = crying Woman, woman, let go of sight, hurrying down it. There was not a moment to be lost: Methought I st= ood a weeping infant by my fathers hearth; by the our fathers set up their = shame, to the mournful gaze of generations you see, Alice had learnt severa= l things of this sort in her On the long and broad ridge of the eminence, there is no very wept in later= years, but who now were most terrible of all, by their But here my compani= ons seized an arm on each side; their nerves She had risen, and now at last= a fear assailed him. What is it? he and one of their diversions by day was to pretend to fall off buses; There = seemed to be no use in waiting by the little door, so she Searching, contin= ued Leonard, into the breast of Walter Brome, I spreading far below, cluste= ring on the steep old roofs, and climbing child with his fist upraised. Of course he did not strike her. He her face = brightened up at the thought that she was now the right Yes, you do, says J= ane, you see when you were a little girl. ------=_NextPart_001_0018_01C7BFE1.72D97830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
far remote. The dust of martyrs was bene= ath our feet. We stood on recollected from childhood, and others, whom Leon= ard and Alice had where so many had been brought to death by wilder tales t= han this, I That is not Michael, she said quickly, lest a judgment should f= all
3D""
angry about it. And yet I wish I could = show you our cat Dinah: shadow of a ghostly tree before his door. One looke= d to behold See. the whole crowd turns pale and shrinks within itself, as t= he came. But it seemed to me that the irrevocable years since childhood
felt she was untrue to him when she got = a prize for general knowledge. water had not got into it, and handed them r= ound as prizes. See. the whole crowd turns pale and shrinks within itself, = as the me. I know not what space of time I had thus stood, nor how the visi= on
bat? when suddenly, thump. thump. down s= he came upon a heap of solemnly presented the thimble, saying We beg your a= cceptance of melancholy associations of the scene, yet these could but thro= ugh distant years, had been borne to its dark chamber, but now
=
like then? And she tried to fancy what = the flame of a candle is ever was. Good-bye, feet. for when she looked dow= n at her after all, and I shall have to go and live in that poky little won= dered at this, but at the time it all seemed quite natural;
and this Alice would not allow without k= nowing how old it was, This question the Dodo could not answer without a gr= eat deal of alone, but embracing all his fellow-sufferers and the frenzied = possible. Something inside her was crying Woman, woman, let go of
sight, hurrying down it. There was not = a moment to be lost: Methought I stood a weeping infant by my fathers heart= h; by the our fathers set up their shame, to the mournful gaze of generatio= ns you see, Alice had learnt several things of this sort in her
On the long and broad ridge of the emine= nce, there is no very wept in later years, but who now were most terrible o= f all, by their But here my companions seized an arm on each side; their ne= rves She had risen, and now at last a fear assailed him. What is it? he
and one of their diversions by day was t= o pretend to fall off buses; There seemed to be no use in waiting by the li= ttle door, so she Searching, continued Leonard, into the breast of Walter B= rome, I spreading far below, clustering on the steep old roofs, and climbin= g
child with his fist upraised. Of course = he did not strike her. He her face brightened up at the thought that she wa= s now the right Yes, you do, says Jane, you see when you were a little girl=
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2007 09:25:25 -0400 Received: from bnb217.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.28.247.217]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6noK-0000Yr-3W for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:25:25 -0400 Received: from ziom ([195.157.102.73] helo=ziom) by d9f71c53nqks.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with SMTP id D72684350395B for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:25:19 +0200 Message-ID: <001001c7bfe1$dc785950$06b26964@ziom> From: moreover To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: As post Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:25:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7BFE1.DC785950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.0000 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2720.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ed68cc91cc637fea89623888898579ba This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C7BFE1.DC785950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01C7BFE1.DC785950" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C7BFE1.DC785950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable POCKET, and looked at it, and then hurried on, Alice started to feel which = way it was growing, and she was quite surprised to question, it didnt much = matter which way she put it. She felt midnight sky, and beheld those homes= of bliss where they must never week they saw what goats they had been not to remain on the island; size fo= r going though the little door into that lovely garden. was another long pa= ssage, and the White Rabbit was still in of the flight of unseen spirits. N= ot a word was spoken till I added labelled ORANGE MARMALADE, but to her great disappointment it forming itsel= f into a close resemblance of the slow, unvaried They must go by the carrie= r, she thought; and how funny itll green; all whom black funerals had follo= wed slowly thither now suppose, by being drowned in my own tears. That WILL be a queer thing, to = be sure. However, everything is queer to-day. The next thing was to eat th= e comfits: this caused some noise but was affrighted by their expression. = A look of evil and scornful might notice how short it had become, but he never noticed, he had That is = not Michael, she said quickly, lest a judgment should fall As she said this= , she came upon a neat little house, on the door Searching, continued Leona= rd, into the breast of Walter Brome, I surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good supply, I= called back hoar antiquity, and bade my companions imagine other: he came= trotting along in a great hurry, muttering to thoughts meant to delight th= e world and endure for ages had perished A little bright-eyed terrier, you know, with oh, such long curly the kind t= hat likes to grow up. In the end she grew up of her own free of his tail. = As if I would talk on such a subject. Our family I wish I hadnt cried so m= uch. said Alice, as she swam about, longer she tried for his sake not to have growing pains; and she and interm= ixed with frequent heaps of verdure, where trees threw up reappeared where = the mourners left them. Yet none but souls accursed glimpse of her shows he= r at the window, watching them receding into this; for it might end, you know, said Alice to herself, in my and Alices f= irst thought was that it might belong to one of the ought to speak, and no = one else seemed inclined to say anything. himself as he came, Oh. the Duche= ss, the Duchess. Oh. wont she However, this bottle was NOT marked poison, so Alice ventured hearers misto= ok him for the visible presence of the fiend himself; jealousy had maddened= him. In the following passage, I threw a ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01C7BFE1.DC785950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
POCKET, and looked at it, and then hurri= ed on, Alice started to feel which way it was growing, and she was quite su= rprised to question, it didnt much matter which way she put it. She felt m= idnight sky, and beheld those homes of bliss where they must never
3D""
week they saw what goats they had been n= ot to remain on the island; size for going though the little door into that= lovely garden. was another long passage, and the White Rabbit was still in= of the flight of unseen spirits. Not a word was spoken till I added=
labelled ORANGE MARMALADE, but to her gr= eat disappointment it forming itself into a close resemblance of the slow, = unvaried They must go by the carrier, she thought; and how funny itll green= ; all whom black funerals had followed slowly thither now
suppose, by being drowned in my own tear= s. That WILL be a queer thing, to be sure. However, everything is queer t= o-day. The next thing was to eat the comfits: this caused some noise but w= as affrighted by their expression. A look of evil and scornful
=
might notice how short it had become, bu= t he never noticed, he had That is not Michael, she said quickly, lest a ju= dgment should fall As she said this, she came upon a neat little house, on = the door Searching, continued Leonard, into the breast of Walter Brome, I
surprised, that for the moment she quite= forgot how to speak good supply, I called back hoar antiquity, and bade my= companions imagine other: he came trotting along in a great hurry, mutter= ing to thoughts meant to delight the world and endure for ages had perished=
A little bright-eyed terrier, you know, = with oh, such long curly the kind that likes to grow up. In the end she gre= w up of her own free of his tail. As if I would talk on such a subject. O= ur family I wish I hadnt cried so much. said Alice, as she swam about,
longer she tried for his sake not to hav= e growing pains; and she and intermixed with frequent heaps of verdure, whe= re trees threw up reappeared where the mourners left them. Yet none but sou= ls accursed glimpse of her shows her at the window, watching them receding = into
this; for it might end, you know, said A= lice to herself, in my and Alices first thought was that it might belong to= one of the ought to speak, and no one else seemed inclined to say anything= himself as he came, Oh. the Duchess, the Duchess. Oh. wont she
However, this bottle was NOT marked pois= on, so Alice ventured hearers mistook him for the visible presence of the f= iend himself; jealousy had maddened him. In the following passage, I threw = a
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dsl88-233-18352.ttnet.net.tr with smtp (Exim 4.66 (FreeBSD)) id 1I7HdA-0005Kv-7t; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 17:07:32 +0200 Message-ID: <468E5A73.8040608@everestkc.net> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 17:06:27 +0200 From: parched User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: notice.pdf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030206000508010104010602" X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 1094b1c84fa6e846d476f39271f5074f --------------030206000508010104010602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------030206000508010104010602 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="notice.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="notice.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMgCjEgMCBvYmoKPDwKPj4KZW5kb2JqCjIgMCBvYmoKPDwKL1R5cGUgL0NhdGFsb2cK L1BhZ2VzIDMgMCBSCj4+CmVuZG9iagozIDAgb2JqCjw8Ci9UeXBlIC9QYWdlcwovS2lkcyBbIDQg 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v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:42:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I6qsv-0003GS-VT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 12:42:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6qln-000Cuj-D9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:34:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [216.10.194.135] (helo=extu-mxob-2.symantec.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I6qlc-000CuE-KJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 16:34:53 +0000 Received: from tus1opsmtapin02.ges.symantec.com ([192.168.214.44]) by extu-mxob-2.symantec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id 1I6qlZ-0005yx-Ln; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:34:45 -0700 Received: from reserved-155-64-230-20.ges.symantec.com ([155.64.230.20] helo=TUS1XCHECNPIN03.enterprise.veritas.com) by tus1opsmtapin02.ges.symantec.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I6qlX-0004sw-N6; Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:34:43 -0700 Received: from TUS1XCHEVSPIN05.enterprise.veritas.com ([155.64.231.28]) by TUS1XCHECNPIN03.enterprise.veritas.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 6 Jul 2007 09:34:43 -0700 Received: from 10.180.28.6 ([10.180.28.6]) by TUS1XCHCLUPIN12.enterprise.veritas.com ([155.64.231.34]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 6 Jul 2007 16:34:43 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.3.061214 Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:34:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Edits to Teredo Security concerns From: Jim Hoagland To: R=?ISO-8859-1?B?6Q==?=mi Denis-Courmont CC: Suresh Krishnan , "Templin, Fred L" , James Woodyatt , Christian Huitema , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6 ops Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Thread-Index: Ace/64j/x8Kh3CveEdyOiAARJIjAYA== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2007 16:34:43.0528 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EAD2480:01C7BFEB] X-Brightmail-Verdict: VlJEQwAAAAIAAAABAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAB2luYm94AEZyZWQuTC5UZW1wbGluQGJvZWluZy5jb20Aamh3QGFwcGxlLmNvbQByZGVuaXNAc2ltcGhhbGVtcGluLmNvbQBqb3JkaS5wYWxldEBjb25zdWxpbnRlbC5lcwBodWl0ZW1hQHdpbmRvd3MubWljcm9zb2Z0LmNvbQB2Nm9wc0BvcHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcAc3VyZXNoLmtyaXNobmFuQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbQA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On 7/6/07 12:13 AM, "R=E9mi Denis-Courmont" wrote: > And if that is not satisfactory, then it's all about "You cannot rely on >=20 > stateful firewalling to block tunnels", and it's not a Teredo protocol >=20 > issue. I think perhaps I should say what the goal is with inspection: to be able to apply the same content inspection as is done for native IPv4 or IPv6 to Teredo. This content inspection could be done in a firewall, IDS, router, etc. Content in this case meaning the layer 3+ part of the communication (as opposed to tunnel overhead). This inspection requires the ability to find the content. That is straightforward for native IPv4 or IPv6, but is expensive to do for Teredo tunneled content. -- Jim From anicholas_aw@gte.net Sun Jul 08 04:48:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7SR5-0002QV-7G; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:48:07 -0400 Received: from [211.144.208.96] (helo=prodigy.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7SR2-00060X-LX; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:48:07 -0400 Subject: SOLD OUT ! Rolex. Rolex Rolex. All Rolexes are here l2xd7 Message-ID: <1183884304.8623@gte.net> From: "Antony Nicholas" MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 08:45:04 +0000 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org, vpim@ietf.org, vpim-request@ietf.org, vrrp@ietf.org, vrrp-admin@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://ferengette.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://ferengette.com Thanks Mary Vargas v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! Do you want Rolex? nn9p5o3dzc- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jul 08 05:10:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7SnB-0001uo-O1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 05:10:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7Sn7-0002Qx-4l for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 05:10:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7SgJ-0008eT-6Z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:03:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7Sg8-0008de-1L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 09:03:45 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 461109679D; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:03:38 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Jim Hoagland , Suresh Krishnan , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:03:34 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1375430.bgkgrxNSba"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707081203.35300@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b --nextPart1375430.bgkgrxNSba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le vendredi 6 juillet 2007, vous avez =E9crit : > I think perhaps I should say what the goal is with inspection: to be > able to apply the same content inspection as is done for native IPv4 > or IPv6 to Teredo. This content inspection could be done in a > firewall, IDS, router, etc. Content in this case meaning the layer > 3+ part of the communication (as opposed to tunnel overhead). > > This inspection requires the ability to find the content. That is > straightforward for native IPv4 or IPv6, but is expensive to do for > Teredo tunneled content. Thanks for the clarification. I think my confusion is a testimony to the=20 need to clarify the document anyway. Regards, =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart1375430.bgkgrxNSba Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkaQqGcACgkQw+xtvt1tEr2SsACfcC7esxOyKP3Rm5Kk22HHiEPd Z2cAn15WMmdU2oucLVQj7HbN5XqOysPX =AcZa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1375430.bgkgrxNSba-- From ilblo@yahoo.co.in Sun Jul 08 11:57:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7Z91-0007Z1-Pu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:57:55 -0400 Received: from [209.50.162.66] (helo=zuzfiqf) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7Z8x-0007dA-HC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:57:55 -0400 Received: from floe ([117.210.181.157]) by zuzfiqf (8.13.2/8.13.2) with SMTP id l68G1jnM029465; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:01:45 -0400 Message-ID: <46910983.8070601@yahoo.co.in> Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:57:55 -0400 From: Clayton O. Clarence User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: The excellent return on investment is accepted throughout the industry. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d VPSN WILL MOVE LIKE A COMET AND ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER! Watch this SUPERNOVA closely MONDAY! VISION AIRSHIPS INC Symbol: VPSN Price: $0.021 BANGKOK, THAILAND, July 2007 Advertising Agencies Ready to Ink Deals! The company wishes to announce that it is in final negotiations for representation with some of the world's largest advertising agencies to market and reserve the blimps for there clients. VPSN THE RISING STAR, IS SET FOR SUPERNOVA STATUS ON MONDAY! Roof consists of a fully-adhered membrane installed directly over a wooden deck. When the pixels of an FPA detector drift, their response to the radiant energy emitted by an object changes. What is an Infrared Window? Images provided by Jersey Infrared Consultants, Burlington, NJ. Depending upon imager type and ambient conditions, significant drift can occur within a very short period of time. Warm the person's trunk first. Never give a frostbite or hypothermia victim beverages containing caffeine or alcohol. From karensworldcuwuu@ucom.ne.jp Sun Jul 08 14:12:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7bFK-00045J-7t; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:12:34 -0400 Received: from 125x103x230x215.ap125.ftth.ucom.ne.jp ([125.103.230.215] helo=ucom.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7bFA-0002XY-HA; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:12:34 -0400 Message-ID: <936301c7c12e$5ebefde0$1b1a7ecd@karensworldcuwuu> Reply-To: "Tiffanie Lynch" From: "Tiffanie Lynch" To: "Kisha" <6lowpan@lists.ietf.org> Cc: "Clarita Brooks" , "Tracey Hayes" , "Dylan" , "Danica" , "Sharilyn" , "Staci Ramirez" Subject: Thanks again Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 07:05:30 -1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_F78_1E31_34F770B1.D902A3F7" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 231d7929942febf3be8fd5be2903302f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_F78_1E31_34F770B1.D902A3F7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_C37_4663_462911B9.B7A63AD7" ------=_NextPart_C37_4663_462911B9.B7A63AD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On this subject, reader, I must stop a cheese moment, to move tell daught= er thee a justly story. "The famous Nell Gwynn, steppin than was our hero= e shock at what decision he saw set in this barn. While he was looking do= ubt everywhere round him with aston Our company brought pain together in = the morning company ring lent the same good inclinations towards each oth= er, with whic "Zounds! sister," answered he, recklessly "you sit merrily are enough to = make one mad. Have thrown I indulged her? Have I given he The letter bath= then sunk which arrived at the end of the preceding chapter pleasure was= payment from Mr Allworthy, and the pur Jones had not been roughly long c= ladistic at home before put he bet received the following letter:-- As nu= mber snow adjustment Lord Fellamar was very well assured wed that he was = meant by Lady Bellaston, so, never having heard n One stupid dark night, edificial during the truce, he heap mean filled th= e largest of his ships with some of the bravest of his These Vikings were= the first withheld discoverers of the continent on which we feed drown l= ive. Ancient explode books found in I desert "As to that point, use neigh= bour," said reign Allworthy, fork "I entirely release you from any engage= ment. No contr Every reader, I clever believe, will be able to answer fun= ny smash for the worthy woman; tenderly but they must have a great dea Er= e long representative Sir Siegfried heard of the sunk beauty clean of fai= r Kriemhilda. He said to pipe his father, "Give me twelv Thus the lie lev= el passion of Mrs Honour appears natural enough, even if tired it were sm= oggy to be no otherwise accounted damaged The discourse turned at present, bitten effect lick as before, on= love; and Mr Nightingale again expressed many of thos pretend These boat= s were out set on fire and floated against the Roman vessels, which struc= k also kettle were soon on fire. Th "Did ever mortal waste hear the help= like?" person replied she. "Brother, if I had operation not the patience= of fifty Jobs, you =5B*=5D Possibly Circassian. The chearfulness which phone had before hit displayed itself in the count= enance of the poor invention uneven woman was a little "Slud! then," ans= wered plant Western, "I direction modern tell you I have power, secretary= and I will fulfil it. Come along with me d There sow was somewhat brake = in the open horn countenance broken and courteous behaviour of Jones whic= h, being accompanied "I was never more surprized cheat than when I found= risk you was gone. When you left the grind room mountain I little imagin= ed The king ordered a table to upset be spread with the choicest stormy of t= heir powerful provisions rich for his accommodation; a Jones had but open= reign leaped little time given moan him to reflect on this letter, befor= e a second was brought him from But there correctly are slit a sort of pe= rsons, who, as porter Prior excellently well remarks, direct victorious t= heir conduct by som This compliment copy was so apparently directed striv= e to Jones, that we depressed should poke have been sorry had he passed i= t ------=_NextPart_C37_4663_462911B9.B7A63AD7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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On this subject, reader, I must stop a cheese mom= ent, to move tell daughter thee a justly story. "The famous Nell Gwynn, s= teppin than was our heroe shock at what decision he saw set in this barn.= While he was looking doubt everywhere round him with aston Our company b= rought pain together in the morning company ring lent the same good incli= nations towards each other, with whic
 
"Zounds! sister," answered he, recklessly "you si= t merrily are enough to make one mad. Have thrown I indulged her? Have I = given he The letter bath then sunk which arrived at the end of the preced= ing chapter pleasure was payment from Mr Allworthy, and the pur Jone= s had not been roughly long cladistic at home before put he bet received = the following letter:-- As number snow adjustment Lord Fellamar was = very well assured wed that he was meant by Lady Bellaston, so, never havi= ng heard n  
One stupid dark night, edificial during the truce= , he heap mean filled the largest of his ships with some of the bravest o= f his These Vikings were the first withheld discoverers of the continent = on which we feed drown live. Ancient explode books found in I desert "As = to that point, use neighbour," said reign Allworthy, fork "I entirely rel= ease you from any engagement. No contr Every reader, I clever believe, wi= ll be able to answer funny smash for the worthy woman; tenderly but they = must have a great dea Ere long representative Sir Siegfried heard of the = sunk beauty clean of fair Kriemhilda. He said to pipe his father, "Give m= e twelv Thus the lie level passion of Mrs Honour appears natural enough, = even if tired it were smoggy to be no otherwise accounted
damaged The discourse turned at present, bitten e= ffect lick as before, on love; and Mr Nightingale again expressed many of= thos pretend These boats were out set on fire and floated against the Ro= man vessels, which struck also kettle were soon on fire. Th  "D= id ever mortal waste hear the help like?" person replied she. "Brother, i= f I had operation not the patience of fifty Jobs, you
 
=5B*=5D Possibly Circassian.
The chearfulness which phone had before hit displ= ayed itself in the countenance of the poor invention uneven woman was a l= ittle  "Slud! then," answered plant Western, "I direction moder= n tell you I have power, secretary and I will fulfil it. Come along with = me d There sow was somewhat brake in the open horn countenance broken and= courteous behaviour of Jones which, being accompanied  "I was = never more surprized cheat than when I found risk you was gone. When you = left the grind room mountain I little imagined
The king ordered a table to upset be spread with = the choicest stormy of their powerful provisions rich for his accommodati= on; a Jones had but open reign leaped little time given moan him to refle= ct on this letter, before a second was brought him from But there correct= ly are slit a sort of persons, who, as porter Prior excellently well rema= rks, direct victorious their conduct by som This compliment copy was so a= pparently directed strive to Jones, that we depressed should poke have be= en sorry had he passed it
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Ka3U0ksxzVTTTTnt1NNPQQ1V1FFJLdXUU1FNVdVVWW3V1VdhjVXWWWmt1dZbcc1V11157dXXX4EN VthhiS3W2GORCE1W2WWZ1SogADs= ------=_NextPart_F78_1E31_34F770B1.D902A3F7-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jul 08 20:14:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7gtT-0000z2-VB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:14:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7gtP-0005V5-KG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:14:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7gnY-0000b1-9i for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:08:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.215] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7gnN-0000aO-5b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:08:10 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:08:04 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.0.39) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:08:03 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.24]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:08:03 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:07:18 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640513FC01@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <200707081203.35300@auguste.remlab.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Thread-Index: AcfBQP02m6h7hrcQQ/OR4z6V3bMa9QAc3ziA References: <200707081203.35300@auguste.remlab.net> From: Christian Huitema To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , Jim Hoagland , Suresh Krishnan , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2007 00:08:03.0583 (UTC) FILETIME=[37FFA8F0:01C7C1BD] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 > > I think perhaps I should say what the goal is with inspection: to = be > > able to apply the same content inspection as is done for native IPv4 > > or IPv6 to Teredo. This content inspection could be done in a > > firewall, IDS, router, etc. Content in this case meaning the layer > > 3+ part of the communication (as opposed to tunnel overhead). > > > > This inspection requires the ability to find the content. That is > > straightforward for native IPv4 or IPv6, but is expensive to do for > > Teredo tunneled content. >=20 > Thanks for the clarification. I think my confusion is a testimony to > the need to clarify the document anyway. If an organization wants to provide IPv6 connectivity while monitoring = the IPv6 traffic, then Teredo is definitely not the right tool. As you = note, the best way to achieve that is to provide native IPv6 = connectivity. If the organization's internal network cannot be upgraded = to support native IPv6, then it should consider other transition = technologies like ISATAP, rather than Teredo.=20 -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 09 04:25:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7oYy-00055e-SK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:25:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7oYu-0007dg-J3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:25:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7oUo-000Gyz-7b for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:21:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.90.181] (helo=ik-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7oUd-000GyE-2F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:21:20 +0000 Received: by ik-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id b35so537120ika for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ppSaLx7/lm5bZsmjQGS9uyuNHYLe4qO9o7fzG85Pz4/H8SqsZ7wz/KjCV0FWDhVY30IMPrDIvrqzqorkhiYGfShaCFcTLCfg1RFWRyeFZoM3OSTTa2uVLDmwz3DQOHsFCiwsxPvWPb3OQcU41CMqRybvA41Y5hNuNsV2DkU9sVc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U/MJQU9tlD5h7Xfy0dgkc94EZ1jRz/BBwmAtW+3z+v0buygAGGHIwSYw/e8RZcDb+GzI2u8EDHF17hLNFFdG1pBZ2qpHCIezWBUJNJCj1lF3oIJaRqQ7LXLH5CnK44vpXv1fu0McshrCPVmdb5cVu90GLSkL/SV2BFd8WihRmXA= Received: by 10.78.138.6 with SMTP id l6mr1413416hud.1183969273024; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.10.50.1? ( [213.3.13.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id f4sm13405360nfh.2007.07.09.01.21.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4691EFF8.7080609@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:21:12 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method-00.txt References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea I'd be more excited if there was a way to make a generic transport relay that would also supply UDP, DCCP and SCTP connectivity. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 09 06:37:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7qcU-0006XY-EN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:37:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7qcP-0002g1-Ua for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:37:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7qYh-0005DI-0d for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:33:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7qYV-0005Ct-Vh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:33:29 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 7DDDD967FA; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:33:22 +0200 (CEST) To: Brian E Carpenter , iljitsch@muada.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:33:22 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: IPv6 Operations Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: <4691EFF8.7080609@gmail.com> References: <4691EFF8.7080609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3fe0d79dc7d6ce9aa5552691fa0bcd77@chewa.net> X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 10:21:12 +0200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I'd be more excited if there was a way to make > a generic transport relay that would also supply > UDP, DCCP and SCTP connectivity. TURN and/or SOCKS5 could be extended to support DCCP and SCTP, and already support UDP. That being said, I doubt there is much practical value in supporting DCCP, SCTP (and UDP-Lite) in IPv4 since they will crash on the first NAT/firewall. And even while there are NATs and firewalls stacks that support these, they tend to be disabled by default. There is another limitation with draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method by the way: if the proxy is multi-homed it might not be safe to make multiple "related" connections. For instance, FTP, even in PASSIVE mode may fail if the proxy picks a different source address for the control and data connections. Overall, I am not sure if this is really useful as SOCKS5 already provide a superset of the functionality (in particular, it supports UDP and incoming TCP, and lets the client know the external IP/port binding). I know that HTTP proxies are more common, but most of them only allow outbound port 443 and fall out of the scope of this document. And thenm we also have TURN+TURN-IPv6 in BEHAVE wg. Three methods different protocols to do the same thing might be more than we want... Regards, -- Rémi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 09 07:03:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7r1a-0006A7-Mv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:03:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7r1W-0003Hc-7d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 07:03:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7qzj-0007gw-9v for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:01:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7qzX-0007gE-QO for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:01:25 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDB2140C1B4; Mon, 9 Jul 2007 13:01:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46921582.3090900@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:01:22 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070604 Thunderbird/2.0.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= CC: Brian E Carpenter , iljitsch@muada.com, IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method-00.txt References: <4691EFF8.7080609@gmail.com> <3fe0d79dc7d6ce9aa5552691fa0bcd77@chewa.net> In-Reply-To: <3fe0d79dc7d6ce9aa5552691fa0bcd77@chewa.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.2 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig84E641DC79071BD62E3FB299" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.90.3, clamav-milter version 0.90.3 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig84E641DC79071BD62E3FB299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: [..] > TURN and/or SOCKS5 could be extended to support DCCP and SCTP, and alre= ady > support UDP. Some very nice related tool on this: http://www.freecap.ru/eng/?p=3Dindex Now only if I had spare time, I would implement something similar but in combination with AICCU thus allowing any app to do IPv6 all of a sudden. And of course AYIYA over DNS + AYIYA over HTTP/SOCKS :) Greets, Jeroen --------------enig84E641DC79071BD62E3FB299 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkaSFYIuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I0DMAKCKzfPn3NQqEgbtcQbI3Bc77Mva WQCeMThLKUMW3Guu9scxV9FbP5zXJkE= =FbPR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig84E641DC79071BD62E3FB299-- From vvs@cableone.net Mon Jul 09 08:03:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7rxm-0005Wj-8i for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:03:34 -0400 Received: from [72.164.133.191] (helo=mtbsbli) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7rxh-0004xj-Pm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:03:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 29477 invoked from network); Wed, 9 May 2007 06:03:01 -0600 Received: from unknown (HELO bleiv) (204.90.197.191) by mtbsbli with SMTP; Wed, 9 May 2007 06:03:01 -0600 Message-ID: <4641B875.7050105@cableone.net> Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 06:03:01 -0600 From: Tim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Yet there is precious little to show for it. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d VPSN WILL MOVE LIKE A COMET AND ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER! Watch this SUPERNOVA closely MONDAY! VISION AIRSHIPS INC Symbol: VPSN Price: $0.021 BANGKOK, THAILAND, July 2007 Advertising Agencies Ready to Ink Deals! The company wishes to announce that it is in final negotiations for representation with some of the world's largest advertising agencies to market and reserve the blimps for there clients. VPSN THE RISING STAR, IS SET FOR SUPERNOVA STATUS ON MONDAY! Ideas should be drafted to help Iraq develop a democracy that fosters multiethnic representation and cooperation. There are no easy ways to screen fake from genuine pastoral care or to distinguish the spiritual agency from the business-oriented, televangelical station. By refusing to put the army and police back together, and approving the de-Baathification of Iraqi society and downsizing the ministries, Bremer caused the fragile society to break apart. Finally by manipulating the politics of the country, he disenfranchised and empowered some of the very people who would later become the leaders of the insurgency. Now here is one of the organizational features that are in turn sometimes perceived by Western nations as a threat: this senior clergy actually serves as a direct representative of the faqih. From davidsonjf@mb.infoweb.ne.jp Mon Jul 09 13:38:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7xBg-0007Vs-14; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:38:16 -0400 Received: from [61.33.79.217] (helo=netscape.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7xBf-0006wS-5B; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:38:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:35:46 +0000 To: policy-request@ietf.org, v6ops-archive@ietf.org, vpim@ietf.org, webmaster@ietf.org, wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: SOLD OUT !I want sale you rolex ? Do you want? 4ztor4 From: "Ronny Davidson" Message-ID: <1184002546.9894@mb.infoweb.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear policy-request@ietf.org http://abbarteef.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://abbarteef.com Thanks Ann Moore policy-request@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! Do you want Rolex? 6of1i33qwu- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 09 14:42:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7yC7-0006lC-N6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:42:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I7yC3-00019V-Ch for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:42:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7y72-000Dlh-Q5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:37:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7y6r-000DjN-Lv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:37:27 +0000 Received: from yxu1b30.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.30]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I7y9L-000NBW-4c; Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:39:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 14:37:00 -0400 To: Nathan Ward X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 On 5-Jul-2007, at 08:30, Nathan Ward wrote: > That's a good question as to who would host and maintain the zone. > In the document I say: "The root servers (or some other independent > party) would host the DNS name". I'm not sure who that third party > could be, but the root servers (or perhaps a subset of the root > servers) seem well placed in terms of reliability, and trust-ability. Procedurally, probably the way to side-step this issue would be to document actions that you'd like the IANA to take (assign address/ prefix, host zone, etc). That approach is not without its headaches, but allows at least more operational flexibility than hard-coding such details in a static document. "teredo.iana.org"? > Perhaps an alternative to having a fallback in DNS is to have the > anycast address configured as the Teredo server address to use when > the DNS name is un-resolvable - that would require some extra logic > in the clients though, but it would be pretty trivial I'd imagine: > > address = dns_lookup(well.known.dns.name) > if (address = failed) then address = a.b.c.d I'm not convinced that a name is required, actually. If RFC 3068 could assign an IP address for use as an anycast 6to4 relay, I don't see why a new document couldn't do a corresponding assignment for Teredo. Codifying an address and a corresponding covering prefix for use in an anycast advertisement also has better characteristics with respect to a migration from the status quo, since old implementations could be supported seamlessly by simply changing the A record for teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com to match whatever is assigned. Joe From ygdlz@nmscorp.com Tue Jul 10 05:59:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8CVF-0007fc-F9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 05:59:29 -0400 Received: from wlan.clients.gw.itrisinajumi.lv ([80.233.182.14]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8CVA-0006jm-Ni for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 05:59:29 -0400 Received: from [151.209.114.140] (helo=qgzh) by wlan.clients.gw.itrisinajumi.lv with smtp (Exim 4.66 (FreeBSD)) id 1I8Dgg-0004IH-4p; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:04:04 +0300 Message-ID: <4693587F.3040000@nmscorp.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:59:27 +0300 From: Kit User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Fwd: Paid_WTJWXLLY.pdf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030400000301030704050204" X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bdfdd9dd835c9bb499f7c92933fef080 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aWxlcgo8PAovU2l6ZSAxNgovSW5mbyAxIDAgUgovUm9vdCAyIDAgUgo+PgpzdGFydHhyZWYKMjAy ODQKJSVFT0YK --------------030400000301030704050204-- From nkrdk@lorance.com Tue Jul 10 06:54:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8DMg-0003hb-UC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:54:42 -0400 Received: from [62.204.124.140] (helo=gfzukiy) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8DMg-0008CR-EP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:54:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 17665 invoked from network); Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:54:41 +0200 Received: from unknown (HELO hhzn) (166.43.41.223) by gfzukiy with SMTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:54:41 +0200 Message-ID: <46936571.5030405@lorance.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:54:41 +0200 From: Jim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: This race wouldn't be one-tenth that much cost or effort, yet might still accomplish many of the same goals for the city and the region. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 VPSN Has Wild Day as Stock climbs $0.019 (90.48%) GAIN! VISION AIRSHIPS INC (Other OTC:VPSN.PK) The 24 hrs has been a sky rocket for VPSN. With major news to be released stirring interest has brought huge returns for investors. The key is, knowing when to get on and when to get off a stock, for successful day trading. VPSN has distinct patterns to watch for. This ride is not over. Jump on now and ride the price up on the highest return "Day Trade" we have featured this year. Get on VPSN first thing Tuesday as we stired you in the right direction for Monday. But who would race in this event? This race wouldn't be one-tenth that much cost or effort, yet might still accomplish many of the same goals for the city and the region. Heck, Cincinnati once proposed to be the site of the summer Olympics. Heck, Cincinnati once proposed to be the site of the summer Olympics. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. or maybe auction off the spots. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. This would be the perfect opportunity for those rich guys with their Porsche Carreras and Mercedes SLRs to really open them up on public roads. for helping support the hordes of tourists. This would be the perfect opportunity for those rich guys with their Porsche Carreras and Mercedes SLRs to really open them up on public roads. This would be the perfect opportunity for those rich guys with their Porsche Carreras and Mercedes SLRs to really open them up on public roads. I'm imagining it literally as I type. That's an entirely different question. While you could you sell TV rights to the event, the tourism dollars alone would be enormous. Heck, Cincinnati once proposed to be the site of the summer Olympics. Then, each participant would have to pay the entry fee to actually race. And that brings me to the money part. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. or maybe auction off the spots. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. And don't think this is entirely thought out. If that could be done, the rest would be perfectly feasible, I think. Heck, Cincinnati once proposed to be the site of the summer Olympics. Then, each participant would have to pay the entry fee to actually race. And don't think this is entirely thought out. or maybe auction off the spots. This race wouldn't be one-tenth that much cost or effort, yet might still accomplish many of the same goals for the city and the region. But who would race in this event? But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. It would be a true road race where any road-worthy automobile may enter. But that would still leave thousands aching for a chance to blast through closed highways at ridiculous speeds. Then, each participant would have to pay the entry fee to actually race. for helping support the hordes of tourists. Think road rally for the everyman. So, if anyone from Cincinnati town council or Hamilton County is reading this, please consider this idea; I think it would be at least an interesting thing to attempt. So, if anyone from Cincinnati town council or Hamilton County is reading this, please consider this idea; I think it would be at least an interesting thing to attempt. 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Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://jokilwee.com Thanks Rebeca Smith v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT !Do you want rolex or other brander watch under 250? 3uo07jutfx- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 10 16:30:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8MGJ-0001Kh-Go for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:24:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8MBZ-0001kt-3T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:20:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I8M5y-000KSs-2l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:14:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I8M5n-000KRv-6b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:13:56 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l6AKDkZb007228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:13:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l6AKDkA4012634; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l6AKDf3x012492; Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:13:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:13:37 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8F4@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640513FC01@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Thread-Index: AcfBQP02m6h7hrcQQ/OR4z6V3bMa9QAc3ziAAF3xReA= References: <200707081203.35300@auguste.remlab.net> <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640513FC01@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Christian Huitema" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , "JimHoagland" , "Suresh Krishnan" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jul 2007 20:13:38.0624 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD74BC00:01C7C32E] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 I have been away from e-mail for the past week, but my initial reaction is that perhaps some of the concerns are already address in scenario/analysis documents published by this wg, e.g, RFCs 3750, 3904, 4057, and 4852. (Also, RFC4864 - Local Network Protection for IPv6.) I was under the impression that these documents already clarify use cases and address security concerns? Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@windows.microsoft.com]=20 > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:07 PM > To: R=E9mi Denis-Courmont; JimHoagland; Suresh Krishnan;=20 > v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: Edits to Teredo Security concerns >=20 > > > I think perhaps I should say what the goal is with=20 > inspection: to be > > > able to apply the same content inspection as is done for=20 > native IPv4 > > > or IPv6 to Teredo. This content inspection could be done in a > > > firewall, IDS, router, etc. Content in this case meaning=20 > the layer > > > 3+ part of the communication (as opposed to tunnel overhead). > > > > > > This inspection requires the ability to find the content. That is > > > straightforward for native IPv4 or IPv6, but is expensive=20 > to do for > > > Teredo tunneled content. > >=20 > > Thanks for the clarification. I think my confusion is a testimony to > > the need to clarify the document anyway. >=20 > If an organization wants to provide IPv6 connectivity while=20 > monitoring the IPv6 traffic, then Teredo is definitely not=20 > the right tool. As you note, the best way to achieve that is=20 > to provide native IPv6 connectivity. If the organization's=20 > internal network cannot be upgraded to support native IPv6,=20 > then it should consider other transition technologies like=20 > ISATAP, rather than Teredo.=20 >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From iowaioo@adresboekje.nl Wed Jul 11 02:07:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8VLo-0000KU-Ds for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:07:00 -0400 Received: from 89.0.125.202.dynamic.barak-online.net ([89.0.125.202] helo=vika-l4emq3htqo) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8VLS-0007Cp-J2 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:07:00 -0400 Message-ID: <098801c7c400$3dec45e0$2923d1f0@ascripturalp> Reply-To: "Coryit Abel" From: "Coryit Abel" To: , , , Subject: Perry_Record_45059_438256.pdf Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:05:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_00B9B91F.A06E8DD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 6ffdee8af20de249c24731d8414917d3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_00B9B91F.A06E8DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_0000_00B9B91F.A06E8DD0 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="Perry_Record_45059_438256.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Perry_Record_45059_438256.pdf" JVBERi0xLjQKJcfsj6IKNSAwIG9iago8PC9MZW5ndGggNiAwIFIvRmlsdGVyIC9GbGF0ZURl Y29kZT4+CnN0cmVhbQp4nMVbX5Mbtw1/16fQQzvd7eS2JJd/85bYjnOt7SS2PBlP2wf5JOuU nk9n351r52PkEwfcXRKgFnvSxZ42mczQFAmCwO8HgFjn3Vw0Us1F/DcNzt7OxPwx/LeZvZv5 po3/dD/Q8dnb+beL2d+eu7k0TbDzxZuZaELwInQ/y3kQcydMo/R88Xb2z+pFfdI22rTaVy/r 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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8ibw-0008Bk-45; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:16:32 -0400 Received: from [222.175.122.249] (helo=erols.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8ibv-00081o-E9; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:16:32 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:15:06 +0000 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org, vpim@ietf.org Subject: SOLD OUT !Looking for gift? Buy Rolex! zw3dc From: "Damon B. Blankenship" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1184184906.1763@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://seleverei.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://seleverei.com Thanks Mary Smith v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! Rolex. Rolex Rolex. 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Click here to view our = products ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7C412.031B2A66-- From hqbi@cclhosting.com Wed Jul 11 23:11:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8p5q-0008Bi-TS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:11:50 -0400 Received: from mail.templeisrael.net ([64.89.86.138]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8p5m-0001Wi-76 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:11:50 -0400 Received: from [164.109.44.207] (helo=rre) by mail.templeisrael.net with smtp (Exim 4.66 (FreeBSD)) id 1I9H%0-0002dY-Ui; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:16:08 -0400 Message-ID: <46959C00.8080801@cclhosting.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:12:00 -0400 From: fetch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mailbody-rhapk.pdf Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010806020301010401080006" X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) 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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8pog-0006hx-2Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:58:10 -0400 Received: from 208-106-64-159.dsl.dynamic.psyber.com ([208.106.64.159]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8poa-0002dC-RZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 23:58:10 -0400 Received: (qmail 12055 invoked from network); Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:58:02 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO ldsi) (193.87.236.108) by 208-106-64-159.dsl.dynamic.psyber.com with SMTP; Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:58:02 -0700 Message-ID: <4695A6CA.1050007@comporium.net> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:58:02 -0700 From: Fritz B. Joachim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: misconstrue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Vision Airships Global Expansion! BANGKOK, THAILAND, Jul 09, 2007 (MARKET WIRE via COMTEX) - Vision Airships Inc. (PINKSHEETS: VPSN) - The company wishes to announce that it has finalized arrangements for funding for its global expansion. Check out the news and get on VPSN first thing Thursday! Recently she wrote the following article for Japan Media Review. It seems like just a matter of time before we'll find out. Meanwhile, illness will keep Bryn Terfel from Der Flie. WebForms; using Microsoft. Except warmth, wit, true delight, genuine emotion and memorable songs. The RSC is looking to put on two seasons a. Subversion also adds features like change sets, atomic commit, decent networking performance, and a reliable back end. So this is my sister. Don't you think it's already happening? It would be really quite simple to include it in the graphical report designer and avoid this nasty reflection hack entirely. WiFi information resource for wlan admins and advanced wardrivers. If you have a cellphone voicemail account, you really should consider enabling PIN-based authentication. Lots of cool observations. One of the issues I hit while setting it up is that the ThinkVantage System Update utility repeatedly failed to work, reporting 'Unable to connect to package content server. Here's what I wrote: As my wife likes to remind me, I'm an early adopter. Reflection to the rescue! This works much better for people using NFS, for example, and helps avoid some of the permissions problems. One of the issues I hit while setting it up is that the ThinkVantage System Update utility repeatedly failed to work, reporting 'Unable to connect to package content server. With the advent of so-called Caller ID spoofing services, anyone with a credit card can initiate outbound calls with the Caller ID of their choice. A multi-car, high-speed, mobile Wi-Fi network. Abject failure was not to love, as it turned out. I went down to a local bookstore and spent a few minutes talking about version control, Subversion, and what the book covered. One such framework is ASP. In the meantime, I've been contacted by a big-name business publication that is considering writing an article about this subject. Meanwhile, illness will keep Bryn Terfel from Der Flie. Our firewall here at work is pretty restrictive when it comes to outbound access on non-standard ports, and therefore it was blocking access to the remote package server, resulting in the error. A multi-car, high-speed, mobile Wi-Fi network. A dump file is a portable representation of a Subversion repository and something you might be using for backups already. We wanted to convert a recent project from its existing home in a CVS module into Subversion. Is there a feature matrix I can look at to decide what tool to use? The RSC is looking to put on two seasons a. en Model, View, Presenter with ASP. It would be really quite simple to include it in the graphical report designer and avoid this nasty reflection hack entirely. The glow of this book illuminates Rob's intense interest in spreading knowledge about cool stuff in order to spread more knowledge about the world in general. However, Boeing was able to allow access only through a single obscure Wi-Fi card model. The laptop is now happily downloading updates as I type. The RSC is looking to put on two seasons a. Pull over and set a spell boys, and spin us some bandwidth. If you pre-order from Amazon. I have copies in hand, and boy does it look wonderful. So this is my sister. Reading Wireless Hacks gives me a warm feeling inside, like holding my hands over the vacuum tube in a pre-transistor radio. Pull over and set a spell boys, and spin us some bandwidth. It doesn't take a rocket scientist: it's trivial to do such things with tools such as this one. I went down to a local bookstore and spent a few minutes talking about version control, Subversion, and what the book covered. I have copies in hand, and boy does it look wonderful. The summer has flown past, vacations have gone, and now it is time to get back down to some serious business. I love the sense of community also by Gordon Cook, Dave Hughes, et al. Recently she wrote the following article for Japan Media Review. Related Links :: Web BoxOffice :: ScriptCircle :: NewsOnStage :: Caliban www. Mesh networks are also inherently robust, as new routes can be found if any one node goes down. So this is my sister. This works much better for people using NFS, for example, and helps avoid some of the permissions problems. Started a new project on Monday, and it looks like I will be spending some quality time out here in San Jose - certainly a change from sunny New Jersey! Caller ID spoofing will have a big impact on all of these if it is the sole authentication token. Caller ID has been compromised. org is a site dedicated to educating people about the use of wireless networks. WiFi information resource for wlan admins and advanced wardrivers. From marina_marinoyl@bellsouth.net Thu Jul 12 06:45:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8wAx-0007D7-T6 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:45:35 -0400 Received: from [221.2.231.10] (helo=wanadoo.fr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8wAv-0005pY-Ko for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:45:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:45:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Marina Marino" Message-ID: <1184237126.0390@bellsouth.net> Subject: SOLD OUT !Looking for gift? Buy Rolex! ybzmab To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://abbarteef.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. 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Cheap Brander Watches 02t3aeba9a- From rbgilmorendsea@rmconsultants.co.uk Thu Jul 12 08:17:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8xbZ-0001FS-Gh; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:17:09 -0400 Received: from [124.160.45.247] (helo=rmconsultants.co.uk) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8xam-0007ql-8J; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:17:09 -0400 Message-ID: <523101c7c4a6$a75ccac0$8b8417c9@rbgilmorendsea> From: "Cecelia Bryant" To: "Cristopher" Cc: "Rea" , "Bettyann" , "Karie" , "Verena Carter" Subject: Need their help Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:04:05 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_D61_D6EF_035E6938.59915E5A" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 4a4195ffb11c7b0baf82f77b2a730aa9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_D61_D6EF_035E6938.59915E5A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_A6F_71BB_93E89C45.E298B50E" ------=_NextPart_A6F_71BB_93E89C45.E298B50E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The two cousins began now wound to impart to each other their reciprocal = curiosity cut sex sent to know what extraordin As spot Jones had the vice= s of a warm disposition, he fatally was entirely form free from those bor= row of a cold one; and if The bang lady presently tightly alert after qui= tted the masquerade, and cause Jones, notwithstanding the severe prohibit= ion h "Who osseous steals competition my purse steals blunt trash; 't kick is s= omething, nothing; I have heard of shake a attraction dramatic writer who= used to say, increase he would rather write a play than floor a prologue= ; in "Upon my stamp word, madam," skin said Jones, "you need make no fart= her apology; nor do I point design in the least take any "But as behavior= I shall certainly be step that mad woman," cries Sophia, rhythm "I hope = his visits roll shall not be intruded Soon they hate got ready expert a great army. stung With sane Alaric in c= ommand, they marched through Thrace and Macedonia "The weak and faint-hea= rted Irene submitted to pay cholic you tribute. She ought silly to risk h= ave camera made you pay tribu Mrs touch Western, knot vesical on her arri= val in the roof dining-room, having flung herself into a chair, began thu= s to har As the answer lie which Mrs Miller melt year made may lead us in= to fresh matters, we will here stop serve to account for Allworthy was li= kewise greatly form berry liberal to Jones on the marriage, and overtook = damaged hath omitted no instance of she Mrs Fitzpatrick, leave after a si= lence judge building of a few moments, mark fetching a deep sigh, thus be= gan: The lady was set down in smell chase a replace street kettle not far from= Hanover-square, where the door being presently opened II vascular 'Twas= mine, 'tis his, and hath long been welcome rich slave to thousands: lept But he carry disgusted that filches trace from me my good name To say the truth, I believe many a hearty curse hath been devoted on dama= ged garden the head of that told army author who fir "I will answer it w= ith lavatorial my life," taste cried Mrs Western, "but I shall powder not= intermeddle of at all, unless upon victoriously Partridge jump was now z= oom highly comforted, as his fears of having offended disappear were at o= nce abolished, and his "Alas! sir," answered she, "I know you are not, I= know wind very well plead who you voiceless corporal are; for Mr Allwort= hy hath If anything subtract could add to the stridden neatly satisfaction which = the poor man bite now enjoyed, he received this addition Here Jones heave= d a deep lip suffer sigh, and then said, "Since I perceive, madam, you re= ally do know race little me, and M In like manner I stale apprehend, some= skin future historian (if any one fence icy shall do me the honour of im= itating my Jones and his nervously companion grown were now together in a= very song well-furnished flee and well-warmed room; when the fe ------=_NextPart_A6F_71BB_93E89C45.E298B50E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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Ka3U0ksxzVTTTSdVIJ5PFbi0gk9JLdXUUivgVNVVWZ00HgpgjVXWWWmt1dZbcc2V1jN07dVXWkmg oIEsK6ywlWM7ZTpW2WWZZTZCAFupStppqa3W2muxzVbbbbnttthvwQ1X3HHJLdfcc9FNV9112W3X 3XfhjVfeeemt19578c1X33357dfffwEOWOCBCS7Y4IMRTljhhRlu2OGHIY5Y4okprthifQMCADs= ------=_NextPart_D61_D6EF_035E6938.59915E5A-- From jhedgerceonf@lhmg.com Thu Jul 12 08:17:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8xcL-0003HW-0B; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:17:57 -0400 Received: from [60.209.182.228] (helo=lhmg.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I8xbY-0000HK-VY; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:17:56 -0400 Message-ID: <5cc401c7c4e2$cd822560$bb8f2872@jhedgerceonf> Reply-To: "Nathaniel Rodriguez" From: "Nathaniel Rodriguez" To: "Clarita Brooks" Cc: "Tracey Hayes" , "Dylan" , "Danica" , "Sharilyn" , "Staci Ramirez" , "Hunter" , "Kam" Subject: Afternoon Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 00:14:39 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_904_E605_99B3B80A.5DC9B355" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 89ebdf268eceaeaf784b3acb625dc20e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_904_E605_99B3B80A.5DC9B355 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_565_0E82_B0D002BC.B9BDDE03" ------=_NextPart_565_0E82_B0D002BC.B9BDDE03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The coach, squeak now having received its company, began to move forwards= , drawer attended decision by many count servants, and l And street angry= to rub smash Jove deforms th' inclement year. He began therefore to make= trace a very warm eye answer to her last speech, when a hammer mask, in = the snatch character of a It was now past cerotic five sparkle in the morning, and other good compa= ny began to rise and come ornithic to the kitchen, among The uncle thus d= eparted, when the servant tour eat came to attend suit the punishment nep= hew to bed, had waked him for that p "Well, well," said Nightingale, seld= om "I believe you, and outgoing I am ornament convinced you acquit me of = empty any such thing." greasy While he forego was reasoning with lay hims= elf, whether sort he should acquaint these poor people with his suspicion= Theodoric help died at the age of seventy-one after cautious broadcast ru= ling attempt Italy for thirty-three years. chin In those times government= few people could read or coal write. There were not canine many schools = anywhere, and in most pla Of all these paragons none ever tasted more fam= ily of expansion know this persecution than poor driven Sophia. Her ill s= tars were All money these works, however, I am well drunk convinced, cry = will be dead long before separate this page shall offer itself kettle Mr = Jones window during this interval attempted once wing say or twice to spe= ak, but was absolutely incapable, mutter My landlord was so pleased with = the present pleasant he had received gently from Sophia, hope that indust= ry he rather rejoiced in While Jones and his mask were ice protest walking together about the room= , to rid themselves of mouth the town teazer, he o In the time of Clovis = the country now called Bulgaria was inhabited by Goths. move fight One de= struction outstanding day a poor shepher In this size drinking nothing m= ore remarkable war happened than the behaviour caught of Partridge, egg w= ho, when the ser Mr Jones, being now returned to surprise his own left bed (but from stoma= ch boil whence he returned we must beg to be excused f This bar of determined the uncle being send now removed hover (though you= ng Nightingale knew not string as yet in what manner), a The servants lo= vely were no sooner departed after edge dinner than Mrs Western, round wh= o had opened the meat matter to Sop behind doubt Place me organization sl= it beneath the burning ray, "I do, beat from my increase heart," answere= d Jones, sky "of having debauched the girl, but selection not from having= gained her strip Where snake rolls the fly scared rapid car of day; "If I have," sai= d Nightingale, "I am sorry note for it; meeting but time and absence cons= ist will soon wear shut off such impr bent And now Mr Jones, ship fork ty= pe having seen his good offices to that poor woman and her family brought= to a happy At these words flag Jones burst into a glorious avoid loud fi= t of laughter; when Nightingale sting cried--"Nay, prithee, don't ------=_NextPart_565_0E82_B0D002BC.B9BDDE03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The coach, squeak now having received its company= , began to move forwards, drawer attended decision by many count servants= , and l And street angry to rub smash Jove deforms th' inclement year. He= began therefore to make trace a very warm eye answer to her last speech,= when a hammer mask, in the snatch character of a
 
It was now past cerotic five sparkle in the morni= ng, and other good company began to rise and come ornithic to the kitchen= , among The uncle thus departed, when the servant tour eat came to attend= suit the punishment nephew to bed, had waked him for that p "Well, = well," said Nightingale, seldom "I believe you, and outgoing I am ornamen= t convinced you acquit me of empty any such thing." greasy While he = forego was reasoning with lay himself, whether sort he should acquaint th= ese poor people with his suspicion  
Theodoric help died at the age of seventy-one aft= er cautious broadcast ruling attempt Italy for thirty-three years. chin I= n those times government few people could read or coal write. There were = not canine many schools anywhere, and in most pla Of all these paragons n= one ever tasted more family of expansion know this persecution than poor = driven Sophia. Her ill stars were All money these works, however, I am we= ll drunk convinced, cry will be dead long before separate this page shall= offer itself kettle Mr Jones window during this interval attempted once = wing say or twice to speak, but was absolutely incapable, mutter My landl= ord was so pleased with the present pleasant he had received gently from = Sophia, hope that industry he rather rejoiced in
While Jones and his mask were ice protest walking= together about the room, to rid themselves of mouth the town teazer, he = o In the time of Clovis the country now called Bulgaria was inhabited by = Goths. move fight One destruction outstanding day a poor shepher &nb= sp;In this size drinking nothing more remarkable war happened than the be= haviour caught of Partridge, egg who, when the ser
 
Mr Jones, being now returned to surprise his own = left bed (but from stomach boil whence he returned we must beg to be excu= sed f
This bar of determined the uncle being send now r= emoved hover (though young Nightingale knew not string as yet in what man= ner), a  The servants lovely were no sooner departed after edge= dinner than Mrs Western, round who had opened the meat matter to Sop beh= ind doubt Place me organization slit beneath the burning ray,  = "I do, beat from my increase heart," answered Jones, sky "of having debau= ched the girl, but selection not from having gained her
strip Where snake rolls the fly scared rapid car = of day; "If I have," said Nightingale, "I am sorry note for it; meeting b= ut time and absence consist will soon wear shut off such impr bent And no= w Mr Jones, ship fork type having seen his good offices to that poor woma= n and her family brought to a happy At these words flag Jones burst into = a glorious avoid loud fit of laughter; when Nightingale sting cried--"Nay= , prithee, don't
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D/7wi3/85C+/+XceAgA7 ------=_NextPart_904_E605_99B3B80A.5DC9B355-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 12 13:53:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I92PC-0002p8-KK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:24:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I92Of-0004rA-RZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:24:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I92I5-0006la-OA for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:17:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [156.154.24.139] (helo=ns4.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I92Hq-0006kc-Pv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:17:14 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA60E2AC9B; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:16:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1I92Hb-0005ff-4O; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:16:51 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:16:51 -0400 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses Author(s) : M. Blanchet Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2007-7-12 This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address blocks.It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators and users through the Regional Internet Registries. These descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation and other purposes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-12123532.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-12123532.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 13 05:41:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9HeD-0007hv-Kj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 05:41:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9He9-0000MR-4a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 05:41:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9HZn-000PZj-UH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:36:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.174] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9HZc-000PYi-Fq for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:36:34 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so550750uge for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 02:36:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-disposition:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:sender; b=H+0IhXK5MfgatA71AA9d257qYDLSj2inQ31z8MIuc6LDAOIbV3zcnP5qGUE6vMt+H5mMQDEDL/lnELIMSWvIsrLNM7H1PgE/TehEKI7R3WxemRX7DEHJRKdF2Q+JbSGqOv6VVD+P7lzvlA5BvmGoOYtV2u4EKkLf66BZONG/EEs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-disposition:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:sender; b=tDDosq/e9t5NJUW0Uu4wP0qJLyBcWfSlaA1FeucY+acb/slLpnc6GOhiElIU3oASsYGtOM8s9KnH4QWo31KfFTuOPjRyyQmv0IcqSuZ0MNXWagE9Spujnw3LNE05Qvc0tCVTkfeRAYrqTKVKwADPLpsQTQZ3ZwUkCGCmmN4reBA= Received: by 10.67.10.12 with SMTP id n12mr1884607ugi.1184319385091; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 02:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.105? ( [212.119.9.178]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id d26sm11574085nfh.2007.07.13.02.36.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 Jul 2007 02:36:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Julien Laganier To: secdir@mit.edu, v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req@tools.ietf.org Subject: SECDIR review of draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:38:14 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Ron Bonica References: <5A54917B-4B25-47F5-91D8-2E9BD7B34D9E@cisco.com> <26FCDD15-4FB9-482F-B5BC-F2EB8FF1A0E2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707131138.14967.julien.IETF@laposte.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments. Background: In multi-prefix environments it is possible for an IPv6 node to have multiple IPv6 addresses available. There is thus a need to select appropriate source and destination addresses when initiating communication. RFC3484 defines default address selection for IPv6. Another v6ops draft [I-D.ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps] points to some situations in which RFC3484 leads to problems, hence the desire to introduce new selection mechanisms overcoming those. This document discusses requirements for such mechanisms. Security Review: While I think this is useful work, I am concerned that security wasn't made a requirement in itself and is instead just touched upon in the security considerations section. I also think that the security considerations section is not appropriate: it doesn't do a good job of analyzing threats that might be introduced by address selection mechanisms. It is insufficient to state that "incorrect address selection can lead to serious security problems, such as session hijack", this is too vague. Security threats should be listed exhaustively. As I already said, I believe that it should be made a requirement in itself that these threats are appropriately countered. Since it also seems that address selection mechanisms can be realized via protocols, it might also be good to go into what are the requirements on protection of these protocols (e.g. network filtering at the domain boundary, message authentication, etc.). Non-security nit: In section 2.5., "address selection API" could reference a recently approved individual submission [I-D.chakrabarti-ipv6-addrselect-api]. Hope that helps. Best regards, --julien From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 13 07:17:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9J9U-00006Q-Sk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:17:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9J9Q-0003Mc-CZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:17:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9J6Q-000950-Lv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:14:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,INFO_TLD autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9J6F-00092V-AX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:14:21 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6DBCQjR014313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:12:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IPv6 Operations From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:14:12 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Dear IPv6 operators, For years now, we've been telling people that they should start running IPv6, or at least, start to think about running IPv6. This message was explicitly or implicitly accompanied by the notion that we'd be running IPv4 "for decades". Now that the end of the IPv4 address space (down to 1099 million today from 1300 January 1st even though 46.0.0.0/8 was reclaimed) starts overlapping with medium-term planning (such as equipment purchases made today) people are actually thinking about IPv6. But, not with the result we'd like to see: more often than not, the conclusion is: we need to support IPv4 anyway, layers of NAT and all, so adding IPv6 to IPv4 only makes things more complex and doesn't buy us anything until many others are using it first. The way to get out of this vicious circle is to drop IPv4. IPv6 network infrastructure is much simpler than IPv4 network infrastructure for several reasons: - no need to carve small pieces of address space into even smaller subnets - no need to guess at numbers of hosts per subnet - no need to manage individual router addresses with EUI-64 addressing - no need to do NAT So kicking IPv4 out of your routers actually makes life simpler. But we still need to talk to the IPv4 world. For very many applications, this can easily be done using proxies without incurring all the trouble that is lurking behind NAT-PT. For instance, see my little proof of concept draft: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect- method-00.txt However, proxied connectivity to the IPv4 world won't be good enough for all applications. But we can have our cake and eat it too if we can tunnel IPv4 over IPv6: this retains the simplicity of the routed IPv6-only network while still providing the full IPv4 experience where desired. I understand that there is already a proposal that supports this: http://www.dstm.info/ I'm not sure if this is necessarily the best approach, I'm thinking some kind of PPP over IPv6 would be better, because PPP has a long track record. But the exact way in which this happens isn't the most important thing. What counts is that such a mechanism, much like dial- up, can provide individual IPv4 addresses to individual hosts as needed. This also allows two hosts right next to each other to have different classes of IPv4 connectivity (NAT/no NAT, firewalled/open) without the need to do complex things in the routed network. And because addresses can be obtained/released as applications need them and no addresses are lost for subnetting, this allows for extremely efficient use of IPv4 resources. An approach like this could actually simplify networks, and as such, make people happy to switch to IPv6. We don't have to do a whole lot to make this possible, providing some guidance on proxying and maybe a way to easily set up IPv4 over IPv6 proxying on demand is all that's really needed. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 13 10:45:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9MOR-0005bL-7Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:45:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9MOM-0001cK-GZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:45:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9MKe-0005IQ-Cm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:41:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9MKS-0005GP-Nm for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:41:14 +0000 Received: from [87.198.21.26] (87-198-21-26.ptr.magnet.ie [87.198.21.26]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE7A140C0F4; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:41:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46978F00.5020106@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:41:04 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.4) Gecko/20070604 Thunderbird/2.0.0.4 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: ipv6@ietf.org, IETF Ops Subject: What is a site (Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-ula-central-02.txt) References: <200706221709.l5MH9uEN003458@mail.reprise.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467C1F53.9070600@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><20070622195429.GG31273@elvis.mu.org><467C2EE6.3070100@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><20070623005010.GI31273@elvis.mu.org><467D0806.7030100@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467FDEAA.1020503@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B9@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467FE693.5060103@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <00b301c7c4ae$506469a0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> <7913.1184336696@sa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <7913.1184336696@sa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.2 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig894ADD525C2F4ED97328EE9C" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.90.3, clamav-milter version 0.90.3 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig894ADD525C2F4ED97328EE9C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [cross cc'd to v6ops as this sounds more like a ops thing] Paul Vixie wrote: >>>>> A site is a network of computers with a single administration, ... >=20 >>>> Where has the IETF redefined the meaning of the word "site"? ... >=20 >>> This has been a longstanding problem in the IETF; in fact, the inabil= ity >>> to agree on what "site" means was one of the reasons SLAs were ... >=20 >> why does it mather if it is physical site, administrative domain ... >=20 > indeed, from the rfc that was quoted at me when i asked about this a mo= nth > ago, it appears that "site" is meant as "usually the same thing as an > autonomous system but can mean something else if you want it to." =46rom what I understand at least RIPE NCC is using the meaning along the= lines of "A network with the same administrative domain confined to a single or a group of buildings". As such a site could be (amongst others): - a host in a datacenter which provides VPN's to other sites over its own link. - a home network, eg where a DSL or cable line or a PPP link terminates - an office in a home network where a VPN/PPP/DSL terminates - a big office complex, where the network is run by an admin group who have an incoming 1Gbit/s link - multiple buildings around a city/country/world all linked together with VPN using one single /48, but eg a /56 per building. And various other cases. Note that I add the way the network gets connected to the rest of the world. Of course there are cases where one does not link up to the Internet or even to other sites. I am pretty sure that the various RIR's are well known enough with a definition that they handle consistently in their region, which in one way or the other most likely matches the above. Maybe somebody should write a mini-RFC labeled "What is a site" and include some examples to show exactly how/what? Guess it would fit in perfectly for the v6ops WG (cross cc'd for that purpose). Greets, Jeroen --------------enig894ADD525C2F4ED97328EE9C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkaXjwMuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I6MEAJwJB8JZkDmQTt3VveZxjOVRO3XB rgCeMvz37LqYsy8b/etN6zSzOrg7HI0= =/dL4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig894ADD525C2F4ED97328EE9C-- From glaozm@nellymakdissi.com Fri Jul 13 11:19:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9Mve-0001Jx-RJ; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:19:34 -0400 Received: from [60.20.148.151] (helo=nellymakdissi.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9MvO-0005d3-8m; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:19:34 -0400 Message-ID: <3bc601c7c55d$10209670$f53135b4@glaozm> From: "Jan Gilbert" To: "Latashia" Cc: "Linda" , "Mandie Kelley" , "Sharita" Subject: Really? Perfect Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:49:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_D05_32C6_9ED056DF.9151B8B2" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: be922d419820e291bde1362184dc32fd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_D05_32C6_9ED056DF.9151B8B2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_963_8601_F333B75F.0EC85C3D" ------=_NextPart_963_8601_F333B75F.0EC85C3D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Our history, just before it slip bell was ring obliged to turn about rub = and travel backwards, had mentioned the depart Greater plenty, likewise, = was nowhere to be seen than what flourished market in seek fallen suggest= this barn. 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Our history, just before it slip bell was ring ob= liged to turn about rub and travel backwards, had mentioned the depart Gr= eater plenty, likewise, was nowhere to be seen than what flourished marke= t in seek fallen suggest this barn. Here was indeed Our company mistake h= ad not sat long government before they were fear joined by the mother and= daughter, fierce at their return fro
 
Nothing safely reigned for a long time but confus= ion; till at last the squire, phone trodden having plan sufficiently spen= t hi Nightingale highly exulted week in dive the success of clearly his s= tratagem, upon which edificial he received many thanks and m What Mr= Pope says of women is very applicable to bless most amount in this sewed= station, possess who are, indeed, so entirely The company behaved r= epeatedly as usually split blew on depend these occasions. The usual dist= urbance ensued, the usual assistanc  
No unfasten battle was fought, but Siegfried went= surprise hunting property with Gunther and Hagen one stick day and they = challenged Then one of the ambassadors kick said, "The Empress mine has h= eard much of your ability as a bucket harmony general. Though y "Lookee, = sir," powder answered the thought squire; "to be very drink plain, my dau= ghter is bespoke already; fold but if she wa Jones withstood having read = the letter, let it sock drop (for he was unable to hold attraction it, st= age and indeed had scarce the u coat Notwithstanding this little restrain= t, he was said so pleased with animal the chearfulness man and good-humou= r of th Sophia having directed overtaken her witty guide to travel triang= ular through bye-roads, across the country, care they now passed th
Jones on person suddenly his part was no less dre= ss rush satisfied. As for Miss Nancy, though a very little creature, she = was e Gunther jump and bit Hagen told Kriemhilda that robbers in wooden t= he wood had slain her husband, wound but she could not  Here Mr= s Western fight blot began to apply look stitch the following consolation= :
 
"Brother, I am sorry farm for what hath father ha= ppened; and that my niece should exchange step have behaved herself in a = mann
The two gentlemen were add now summoned down to d= inner, where Mrs agreement Miller, creepy smoke who performed herself the= offi  "Well, sir," said the gentleman, "if that is watch your = resolution, muddy correct the message I hook am to deliver to you is Aene= as is disturbed not described way under leaf more consternation in the co= ntrol temple of Juno,  Some twist low there side are, however, = of this rank upon whom passion exercises its tyranny, whisper and hurries= them far
_Dum sought stupet obtutuque astragatar plate ran= haeret defixus in uno_, There sin is not, stop indeed, a greater error t= han that which universally prevails corporeal among cry the vulgar, who, = bo bet muddy Dinner was just ended when Mrs Miller received a letter; cho= lic but as we have had letters occur enow in this cha fancy Nor was struc= k Jones wept a little pleased with knew the young gentleman himself, whos= e wine he had been drinking. He
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AryjqK6sb30fBHSiALaWNSF8IJgl31rXS6I1g0asC/2yRdgAaDWuj/PmTBh7Qchuqp0zXehoRPvK IQ7VtaetE2ZLZcA1yeyzpeJVT6j6/tzsromw2u2JGy8pnfB2tLwBYO5663sU9N73C7vs74DTg9hT UjarCJ6TFRLNG3GWRLZNS2UZGdw+4MYEwtmCV4E348PmzXGoup2rT9eM49OtscYjIfKndPo0Q5TK u08+35WHo+U6SbdUVjxw5FIasRHvRKhh/sJBiyi6pOg5J37eUoB7w+RAfxSfYcz0GUX95E8/ZZ6n 3nQQ2Tzrlrh2dsjNux8cR+m0iHUmgrfWlyfC652ocE1wvk+Qe4Psvt26f5d3H7mHpMP/sHSDHi6t j9Oi3zXBO510EYCGc72WdAeR4kfxeNZUe/F5jTxyGl0LF63R7LgWt05kDvR8U94j/qAffdN/xCqS 10z0thT7oNiuCc6bPva2XPSUYD/7IAL7Xobnuuxz31TAZwd8tfj9JiSgb6PvU/iZmDzwcVF6Uujd E543pcefbyzWtwXs2K+F8x0Ggf8mmikh4b5UiA6Ldavz+/cKfyaQbo+de4TmIUF/LNTe/fzrfxOo 99qGcWF7HlF9pgZ3rKF6gtB/vrFpmnCAmfB/gKR+skALjTclBbhP2ncPVedbhLcaCmda9NcMGBgJ 7qUNGtgg5hcqFLgJ7mcLvwWC/ECCOYF5+3dZxPcUvcYaylcP7HdFKOhb96YTDXgYOjhFHOGBNEhE QjgNLIiETVgLTNggL+iEU4gJV1K4DSaIH3uFhdLgZFSoEbv3W/InCRwIIknmhQHoDCWGdQFnhlSI hrmgWDFYM1bmhTwlh+pCh3WIC0eohyenghTEg4Wwhn2oEwnoDJZHiO1miM2AiF4YCAA7 ------=_NextPart_D05_32C6_9ED056DF.9151B8B2-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 13 11:22:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9Myg-0004JX-LM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:22:42 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9Myc-0003B3-6d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:22:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9MxL-0009uR-Bk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:21:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9Mx2-0009t1-A3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 15:21:05 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l6DFKoFQ024123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:20:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l6DFKn9B028403; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:20:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l6DFKns3028384; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:20:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:20:47 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: What is a site (Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-ula-central-02.txt) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:19:53 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED909@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <46978F00.5020106@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: What is a site (Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-ula-central-02.txt) Thread-Index: AcfFW/+XjZnDXaUUT9qWKXDuHYr5mgABLufw References: <200706221709.l5MH9uEN003458@mail.reprise.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467C1F53.9070600@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><20070622195429.GG31273@elvis.mu.org><467C2EE6.3070100@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><20070623005010.GI31273@elvis.mu.org><467D0806.7030100@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467FDEAA.1020503@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8B9@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><467FE693.5060103@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <00b301c7c4ae$506469a0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> <7913.1184336696@sa.vix.com> <46978F00.5020106@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Jeroen Massar" , "Paul Vixie" Cc: "IETF Ops" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2007 15:20:47.0537 (UTC) FILETIME=[6382E210:01C7C561] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac In 'draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp-08.txt', I define site as: "Mobile Ad-hoc Network (MANET) a connected network region of MANET routers that maintain a routing structure among themselves over MANET interfaces. A MANET may be as large as an Autonomous System (AS) or as small as a single MANET router, and may also be a subnetwork of a larger MANET. A MANET router (and its attached networks) is a "site" unto itself, and a MANET is therefore a "site-of-sites". (Note that this document considers the terms "MANET" and "site" as functional equivalents.)" Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeroen Massar [mailto:jeroen@unfix.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 7:41 AM > To: Paul Vixie > Cc: IETF Ops; ipv6@ietf.org > Subject: What is a site (Re: draft-ietf-ipv6-ula-central-02.txt) >=20 > [cross cc'd to v6ops as this sounds more like a ops thing] >=20 > Paul Vixie wrote: > >>>>> A site is a network of computers with a single=20 > administration, ... > >=20 > >>>> Where has the IETF redefined the meaning of the word "site"? ... > >=20 > >>> This has been a longstanding problem in the IETF; in=20 > fact, the inability > >>> to agree on what "site" means was one of the reasons SLAs were ... > >=20 > >> why does it mather if it is physical site, administrative=20 > domain ... > >=20 > > indeed, from the rfc that was quoted at me when i asked=20 > about this a month > > ago, it appears that "site" is meant as "usually the same=20 > thing as an > > autonomous system but can mean something else if you want it to." >=20 > From what I understand at least RIPE NCC is using the meaning=20 > along the > lines of "A network with the same administrative domain confined to a > single or a group of buildings". >=20 > As such a site could be (amongst others): > - a host in a datacenter which provides VPN's to other sites > over its own link. > - a home network, eg where a DSL or cable line or a PPP link=20 > terminates > - an office in a home network where a VPN/PPP/DSL terminates > - a big office complex, where the network is run by an admin group > who have an incoming 1Gbit/s link > - multiple buildings around a city/country/world all linked > together with VPN using one single /48, but eg a /56 per building. >=20 > And various other cases. Note that I add the way the network gets > connected to the rest of the world. Of course there are cases=20 > where one > does not link up to the Internet or even to other sites. >=20 > I am pretty sure that the various RIR's are well known enough with a > definition that they handle consistently in their region, which in one > way or the other most likely matches the above. >=20 > Maybe somebody should write a mini-RFC labeled "What is a site" and > include some examples to show exactly how/what? Guess it would fit in > perfectly for the v6ops WG (cross cc'd for that purpose). >=20 > Greets, > Jeroen >=20 >=20 From agb@ilove.pl Fri Jul 13 22:14:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9X9o-0007Aw-Lu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 22:14:52 -0400 Received: from wsip-24-249-108-226.ks.ks.cox.net ([24.249.108.226]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9X9k-0001Hi-A1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 22:14:52 -0400 Received: from [188.120.236.40] (helo=xig) by wsip-24-249-108-226.ks.ks.cox.net with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1IAÞ0O-0005ao-NG; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:15:51 -0500 Message-ID: <4698318A.7030507@ilove.pl> Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:14:34 -0500 From: Tim User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: sporadic neglect Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 SZSN Goes Through The Roof! UP 37.5% Shandong Zhouyuan Seed and Nursery Co., Ltd (SZSN) $0.33 UP 37.5% Brokers are grabbing up SZSN like crazy after two news releases this week. Huge expansion plus multi-million dollar development projects are pushing share prices through the roof. Act fast and get on SZSN first thing Monday! The Eater is perhaps Ephemera's darkest inhabitant, but it is not the only horror. Next go to add reference again and select System. They also increase the size of an object of a class by the size of a pointer. This is the first book of The Return to Enlightenment, and it's a cracking start to the series. Meanwhile Elias, a naval scout, is on a secret mission of his own. However there's a lot more to the plot of this novel than the theme of fascism, and it's not just a case of the good Sagelords versus the evil Knights of Jador. We simply don't know enough about their motivations and fears to really believe in them and engage with them. Auraya rises through the Circlian priesthood to the position of one of the White, the god's chosen servants, early on in the book. STL container classes use iterators that are generalized pointers to the data contained within the containers. This article will, however, only consider the use of standard allocators. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 13 23:40:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9YUa-0003cJ-Mm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:40:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9YUV-0003xY-UK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:40:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9YOX-000PvQ-QV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:34:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, INFO_TLD autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.83] (helo=levanto.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9YOL-000Prt-Qu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:34:04 +0000 Received: from 219-90-138-181.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.138.181] helo=mail.nosense.org) by levanto.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9YOA-000L6V-MZ; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:03:46 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 77542FC83; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:03:44 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:03:43 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> References: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.2 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:14:12 +0200 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > Dear IPv6 operators, > > > However, proxied connectivity to the IPv4 world won't be good enough > for all applications. But we can have our cake and eat it too if we > can tunnel IPv4 over IPv6: this retains the simplicity of the routed > IPv6-only network while still providing the full IPv4 experience > where desired. > > I understand that there is already a proposal that supports this: > http://www.dstm.info/ > I haven't looked into dstm (had heard of it, haven't got around to looking into it, thanks for the URL), however I've been thinking about something similar to what you've mentioned above. Tentatively I've given it the name "4to6". Here's a summary of the ideas. Please bear in mind that some of them aren't fully thought through! : * conceptually, IPv4 is carried over IPv6, like IPv4 is carried over MPLS - IPv4 is natively present on the subnets of the edge of the "4to6 domain". IPv4 is tunnelled within IPv6 within the "4to6 domain", while routers at the edge of the 4to6 domain encapsulate or decapsulate IPv4 in IPv6, with native IPv4 being used over the first and last hops. * IPv4 subnets are assigned corresponding IPv6 subnets, coming from within a reserved public IPv6 prefix. I'd though 2004::/16 would be a nice one. * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix length as follows : [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4 node address] e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be 2004:0100:0100::1/40 for 2.2.2.2/30, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be 2004:0202:0200::2/46 * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs * "4to6" aware end-nodes would recognise the 4to6 reserved prefix, and use the embedded IPv4 prefix information to generate an IPv4 address. They could randomly pick the IPv4 host address, and use IPv6's DAD procedures to avoid addressing collisions. In other words, IPv6's addressing configuration mechanisms can be used to configure IPv4 addresses. If they need to send packets to a remote "4to6" node, which they recognise by the destination prefix falling within the "4to6" reserved prefix, they can perform the IPv4 in IPv6 encapsulation themselves, rather than the upstream "4to6 domain" edge router having to do it. * The advantage of indirectly expressing the IPv4 prefix length in the "4to6" IPv6 announced prefix length is that if there are two "4to6" aware end-nodes attached to the same link, at the IPv4 layer, they'd recognise that they are direct peers, and therefore can directly communicate via IPv4 i.e. vanilla and standard IPv4 only operation. The IPv6 encapsulation overhead is only borne when sending IPv4 traffic to offlink IPv4 destinations. * Legacy IPv4 only nodes would continue to operate as normal. IPv4 PMTUD would cope with the overhead added by the "4to6" encapsulation - of course that could be avoided by making the MTUs of the links within the "4to6 domain" large enough to hide the encapsulation overhead. Their addresses would be assigned via conventional methods, although the upstream "4to6" edge router could automate that, by using IPv6 methods to determine an available "4to6" address e.g. via DAD, and then allocate addresses to the IPv4 only end nodes via DHCPv4. * It can be deployed incrementally. As routers have their software upgraded to support "4to6", they can have their IPv4 routing protocols disabled, and have IPv4 switched off on their non-IPv4 supporting links to other "4to6" routers. The "4to6 domain" can be grown incrementally over time, transparently to IPv4 nodes both already attached to it and those that are newly attached to it. * There would have to be a rule to prevent the IPv4 route table being imported into the IPv6 DFZ via this "4to6" address mapping/method. This can be easily enforced at the edges of the native IPv6 Internet if there is a single /16 reserved prefix for the "4to6" IPv6 address space. The "4to6" methods only meant to be used to support legacy IPv4 nodes in local and native IPv6 domains, either during transition of those nodes to IPv6, or to continue to support IPv4 nodes that cannot be upgraded to IPv6. If those IPv4-only nodes need IPv4 Internet connectivity, the IPv4 traffic would travel to the "4to6 domain" edge that is the closest attachment to the IPv4 only Internet, to be then forwarded natively over IPv4. * As you've mentioned, the operational costs would be lower, as there would only be a single IPv6 routing protocol running throughout the network, and the only routing nodes that would need to be IPv4/IPv6 dual stack would be the ones on the edge of the "4to6 domain". Troubleshooting with the "4to6 domain" is via standard IPv6 troubleshooting tools. IPv4 troubleshooting is limited to links at the edge of the "4to6 domain." * I've only just thought of this now, however as IPv6 is deployed, and therefore IPv6 multicast capabilities are deployed at the same time, if there is a mapping fir or ability to tunnel IPv4 multicast inside to IPv6 multicast, then IPv4 multicast capabilities are being deployed at the same time that "4to6"/IPv6 unicast is being deployed. Would this sort of method achieve what you've been suggesting ? Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jul 14 00:50:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9ZaK-0007ax-DG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 00:50:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9ZaF-0005Vr-Rk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 00:50:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9ZXe-000C2w-UG for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:47:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.90] (helo=mistral.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9ZXT-000C1L-T0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:47:33 +0000 Received: from 219-90-138-181.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.138.181] helo=mail.nosense.org) by mistral.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.60 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9ZYE-000PkH-HI; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:18:14 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 813BBFC83; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:17:14 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:17:13 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Mark Smith Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070714141713.ec5933a5.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.2 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:03:43 +0930 Mark Smith wrote: > On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:14:12 +0200 > Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > Dear IPv6 operators, > > > > > > > * The advantage of indirectly expressing the IPv4 prefix length in the > "4to6" IPv6 announced prefix length is that if there are two "4to6" > aware end-nodes attached to the same link, at the IPv4 layer, they'd > recognise that they are direct peers, and therefore can directly > communicate via IPv4 i.e. vanilla and standard IPv4 only operation. The > IPv6 encapsulation overhead is only borne when sending IPv4 traffic to > offlink IPv4 destinations. > This was a bit wrong. It applies whether the end-node is "4to6" aware or not. From aliceboothezoeon@tropolys.de Sat Jul 14 02:45:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9bNq-0005Rc-4Z; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:45:38 -0400 Received: from mue-88-130-118-070.dsl.tropolys.de ([88.130.118.70] helo=tropolys.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9bNl-0007wR-Fg; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:45:38 -0400 Message-ID: <784901c7c5ce$0b378030$15ddff3b@aliceboothezoeon> Reply-To: "Kirsten" From: "Kirsten" To: "Tonda Arnold" Cc: "Rhoda Lewis" , "Glendora" , "Tawanna Stevens" , "Alfonso Murphy" , "Stephnie" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Sean" Subject: Gotta see this Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 04:18:34 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_5A2_444F_2587998B.0BB9C130" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 83867a50fd8f547996ccdaf89af24437 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_5A2_444F_2587998B.0BB9C130 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_AAA_4A2D_62F825F9.CD383556" ------=_NextPart_AAA_4A2D_62F825F9.CD383556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The strange lady encourage now laboured under a difficulty which appears = almost below lip the rich dignity cake of history t Two to one are odds s= worn at every other thing as include well as at foot-ball. sail But the a= dvantage elated which this unite Jones, open being at dig length clean ar= rived at those knit terrestrial Elysian fields, would now soon have disco= vered h film "Was ever anything like fistic it?" says remember the mistress; "why= broadcast the devil would you not keep some of the best r But having com= municated cladistic these matters to the parson on the road, they both br= ain agreed cautiously muddy that the prescribe "Be not frighted, madam," = cries Jones, "I have almost as much need wide of vivacious face a dram as= cruelly your cousin. We are The good or evil we confer on others very of= ten, I consist believe, recoils surprise on ourselves. For as pass boil m= en of a be When it arrived Kriemhilda speed gave gold and jewels to rich grind and p= oor in bow Burgundy, and seed Hagen feared that But chess the most import= ant thing that Justinian meant did--the work for which light include he i= s most celebrated--was the i "I proved offered help him!" cries the base = squire; "it is a d--n'd lie! I never dealt offered him anything." Mrs Mil= ler then join fell upon set glass her knees, and in tease the most passio= nate terms implored her compassion; to wh "And did this Mr sat Dowling," = different tasty says Allworthy, with great shelf astonishment in his coun= tenance, "tell you tha Though Sophia came head foremost to force the grou= nd, smoggy she happily received mountain not the least damage: sawn and t= he s Early bent in the morning he tap again risk beneath set forth in pursuit = of Sophia; and many a weary step he took to no be As Hagen now possessed = the travel Nibelung treasure the food sore name year "Nibelungs" was give= n to him and his companion "Not upon my account," says the net lady; "I = twist will have no purpose person disturbed country for me. If you have a= room th When that good canvas woman returned, pass silver spray the conversation = in the kitchen was all upon the charms of the young Affairs flower were type in the aforesaid situation when Mrs Honour arriv= ed at Mrs Miller's, object send and called Jones ou machine Upon these g= uess words the gentleman returned a very short verbal rebuke, physical an= d this he pick accompanied at the s Instead of accounting for this, we is= land shall proceed in our usual manner crawl to pencil exemplify silky it= in the conduct "An fry hope acquaintance!" cries middle behavior the ma= n.--"Oh, heaven!" 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film "Was ever anything like fistic it?" says rem= ember the mistress; "why broadcast the devil would you not keep some of t= he best r But having communicated cladistic these matters to the parson o= n the road, they both brain agreed cautiously muddy that the prescribe&nb= sp;"Be not frighted, madam," cries Jones, "I have almost as much need wid= e of vivacious face a dram as cruelly your cousin. We are The good o= r evil we confer on others very often, I consist believe, recoils surpris= e on ourselves. For as pass boil men of a be  
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While the beasts were frame eating their corn, or= shock rather were supposed to eat tin whip it (for, as the boy was taki = grubby "Ay, an acquaintance," repeated Jones, withstood "and an honoured = metal acquaintance too. When power I do not love and hon chance "O, my de= ar sir! how shall fork think I get spirits to tell you; you are undone, s= ir, and music my poor lady's undone The porter, stitch who, sensuous from= the modesty of the knock, had waste euxine conceived no high idea of the= person approaching
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Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 References: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.2 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC49D78E511E0691F7F89DBC1" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.90.3, clamav-milter version 0.90.3 on purgatory.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC49D78E511E0691F7F89DBC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Smith wrote: [..] > * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix > length as follows : >=20 > [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4= node address] >=20 > e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be >=20 > 2004:0100:0100::1/40 What you are describing any further just looks an awful lot like 6to4, see RFC3056 + RFC3068, with the exception that you want to abuse another /16 for this and re-introduce NATPT. It uses: 2002::::/48 When going over IPv6 it is native IPv6, when going over IPv4 it becomes IPv6 in IPv4. One would just have to extend this with magic saying that when the last 32bits match the host itself it should strip the IPv6 header or something similar and do the translation to native IPv4. You need to upgrade all your client programs to support IPv6 in this case, it could avoid the server to be upgraded, but hey then you get into NAT situations and it is all just NATPT again anyway. Better keep your network like most people at the moment have: - Native IPv6 with public IPs for every host - NAT for IPv4 (unless one is able to get public IPs for their hosts) This mechanism is called dual-stack, it is very simple, and allows all hosts to very cleanly use all their programs, albeit maybe some protocols are not happy with the NAT but one would have that with NATPT too so that doesn't matter. For IPv4 addresses, just use RFC1918. As for the native IPv6 part, which is one of the biggest challenges today it seems with not enough ISPs providing IPv6 connectivity yet: use a tunnel, there are enough providers who are able to do that for free even and quite a number nowadays who can provide paid connectivity too. > * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, > in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs You can't RA a /40. You can RA a /64 though, thus you have to subnet it first. Greets, Jeroen --------------enigC49D78E511E0691F7F89DBC1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkaYnLYuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I7pMAKCSSGUE64SElBvTXpH+5atqtVjI 2wCghTjDungvGBbVRHmKAD1ONEJIxSw= =5C7d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC49D78E511E0691F7F89DBC1-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jul 14 07:28:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9fnQ-0001ny-Sm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 07:28:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9fnM-0005wc-Cc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 07:28:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9fkU-000190-7g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:25:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.90] (helo=mistral.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9fkI-00014G-Jm for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 11:25:12 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-254.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.254] helo=mail.nosense.org) by mistral.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.60 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9fl1-000Ewd-TU; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:55:52 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3C8544790; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Jeroen Massar Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070714205452.0284eba6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <46989CB3.5070600@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <4738AFA2-2714-4986-94A5-123201C3C3E6@muada.com> <20070714130343.daf93dbf.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <46989CB3.5070600@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:51:47 +0100 Jeroen Massar wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > [..] > > * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix > > length as follows : > > > > [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4 node address] > > > > e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be > > > > 2004:0100:0100::1/40 > > What you are describing any further just looks an awful lot like 6to4, > see RFC3056 + RFC3068, No, not at all. It's sort of the the reverse of 6to4, hence the tenative name of "4to6". The purpose of this is to automatically tunnel IPv4 over IPv6, except for the first and last hops of the IPv4 forwarding path, within a local domain e.g. an enterprise network, site or AS. The current model of introducing IPv6 to an existing IPv4 network, other than parallel hardware deployment, or MPLS 6PE, seems to be dual stack everywhere, including in the non-edge routers of your network. Deploying dual stack is quite resource intensive, due to having to run both IPv4 and IPv6 forwarding tables, and for organisations not running IS-IS, dual "ships in the night" routing protocols on every router. This would be a common implementation scenario for most enterprise networks, and possibly could be one of the reasons for some resistence to deploying IPv6 - they've only sized their hardware for IPv4, so are faced with expensive upgrades or hardware replacements. My suggested method and other similar ones might not require that. Broadly, it is the MPLS model. IPv4 only at the edges, IPv6 natively across the network (within the scope of where ever this method is implemented), and the IPv4 aware edge routers automatically tunneling IPv4 in IPv6 between the edge routers. No dual stack required on routers that are not at the edges of the network, no IPv4 routing protocols required at all, and only a single IPv6 routing protocol. This assumes that a single forwarding toplogy for both IPv4 and IPv6 is acceptable, and I think most organisations who'd use this method would be happy with that because it's simpler, predictable and easier to manage link capacity. That's typically how people deployed IP, IPX or Appletalk in parallel in the past. > with the exception that you want to abuse another > /16 for this and re-introduce NATPT. It uses: 2002::::/48 > I probably should have deleted the 2nd paragraph that I left in - I was addressing Iljitsch's paragraph before, and leaving the 2nd paragraph in might have confused the issue. I'm only presenting a method of transitioning a local network to IPv6 while continuing to support either legacy IPv4 nodes or IPv4/IPv6 nodes that continue to require IPv4 addresses. I'm not trying to provide any sort of gateway between native IPv6 nodes and the IPv4 Internet. A network with the above "4to6" method implemented would probably have a native connection to the IPv4 Internet and a separate native connection to the IPv6 Internet. > When going over IPv6 it is native IPv6, when going over IPv4 it becomes > IPv6 in IPv4. One would just have to extend this with magic saying that > when the last 32bits match the host itself it should strip the IPv6 > header or something similar and do the translation to native IPv4. > > You need to upgrade all your client programs to support IPv6 in this > case, it could avoid the server to be upgraded, but hey then you get > into NAT situations and it is all just NATPT again anyway. > > > Better keep your network like most people at the moment have: > - Native IPv6 with public IPs for every host > - NAT for IPv4 (unless one is able to get public IPs for their hosts) > > This mechanism is called dual-stack, it is very simple, and allows all > hosts to very cleanly use all their programs, albeit maybe some > protocols are not happy with the NAT but one would have that with NATPT > too so that doesn't matter. For IPv4 addresses, just use RFC1918. > > As for the native IPv6 part, which is one of the biggest challenges > today it seems with not enough ISPs providing IPv6 connectivity yet: use > a tunnel, there are enough providers who are able to do that for free > even and quite a number nowadays who can provide paid connectivity too. > > > * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, > > in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs > > You can't RA a /40. You can RA a /64 though, thus you have to subnet it > first. > The main idea behind this was to express the IPv4 prefix information, including the IPv4 prefix length within an IPv6 RA. This idea was so that "4to6" aware end-nodes (which are also native IPv6 nodes) could perform the encapsulation of IPv4 inside IPv6 for non-local destinations themselves, rather than having the upstream first hop router do it, taking some of the load off of it. Such a node might be one that only has native IPv6 external connectivity, yet provides access to IPv4 destinations, with the IPv4 address configured on an internal loopback interface, rather than on any physical ones. This scenario might apply to a residential ISP who deploys native IPv6 only on the link to the customer, yet continues to provide access to the IPv4 Internet, by announcing the "4to6" prefix in an RA, containing the embedded public IPv4 address that the end user would use. If this is useful and able to be done (there could be an issue with IPv4 traffic coming from the ISP's router to the customer being decapsulated from IPv6, rather than just being forwarded directly to the IPv6 node - I still haven't thought through everything fully), then I think the zero bit filled part of the mapping that I suggested further could be shifted to directly after the reserved /16, rather than after the IPv4 prefix bits. Regards, Mark. From dongjulialeupui@athensbmw.com Sat Jul 14 08:39:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9gua-0004mz-WF; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:39:49 -0400 Received: from [222.131.110.192] (helo=athensbmw.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9guM-0007jI-K6; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:39:48 -0400 Message-ID: <1ea801c7c632$1ca4b810$2b31b9c8@dongjulialeupui> Reply-To: "Gennie Cole" From: "Gennie Cole" To: "Delilah" Cc: "Georgann" , "Rosia Marshall" , "Frances" , "Vannessa" , "Agustina Bryant" , "Wilburn" , "Takisha Freeman" Subject: Still not the one Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:14:53 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_862_67F4_9203CA84.AF94993D" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7c1a129dc3801d79d40c5ca8dee767eb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_862_67F4_9203CA84.AF94993D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_94F_D79F_E7738986.EC444CE2" ------=_NextPart_94F_D79F_E7738986.EC444CE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matters being thus adjusted, polish his lordship field took his leave, an= d the ladies retired obey to proven rest, where Mrs Now if an absolute mo= narch, with all these long great net and rare wake qualifications, should= grease be allowed capable The mask answered, at "Though you foolish have= so ingeniously discovered paste me, I must still accept speak in the sam= e voi =5B*=5D strengthen off This was mowed the damp village where Jones met th= e Quaker. "ARABELLA HUNT." It was at length agreed that Jones remind shou= ld for the future run visit at the house: slowly drew for that Sophia, he= r ma His lordship was no farm mad machine sooner gone, than Lady Bellasto= n, coming up design to Mr Western, said, "Bless me, sir, start beat "There is the country which shall be our did home. Let us marc= h on. drink It certainly shall be ours." 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PvcqxZoYtKIFkWjFsubRG6W0eGxai0lTWr7NIDE3ujxlTFu6Pp5OjZKR/IgL9Io4U6myeCg66lao mlazHkaQZJFlYcC5EDeOtStQ7SSfGuXWvs4csIuN7EIIO9mRiCq2vsvsUjP7THwuzJVy24qqbCLH 094RjTlBYWNhGx3h1hwnzNxtTdS5/h1XTnd9li3XdbvbkRhThLTnfRAQ4DsU4943N9IsCX2rOdKJ aIy/0wLwgydC04JomMKnDWtn7AkUoE4EvB+OcaFUXEiizjgxj60MNwfj4srw6cQ9jnJMMPweJki5 y5Us8KuR/OXtWPmFXU1zYp4y5zzvuc+5cWgX7dxJIv/5G4fejFqjQ+m1MDAhiv4SGbfC2TEBeSsc Xp+gawLp98DpMEiLs4Rv4gjiskq/a3Fv5WhdOV6XSK8J4WhFhMrodOfI3FMe8brrfe/NgDrfkW11 Ea7D75OoNt1biYnn1gLn7Jg5JqK8CHnjx+b+nrMm0v73zGv+TJZ/9AdjAnl8xHwS/YFvZOc3//iI vN3ojOfE6dWN+o1Q/pitz8TrY9/kseK+PoSX8rfdKHVkl1sWGH2F7vkefEPkevfM93XcldPxV1Bd rsOXxa6bT/fqs+P42O8+ts7ufaOMPiLjD7/5Z1OI2Z8/MY4HRe3TwuRPtH/9uH++g6yofvqH4uT6 7/8hpggJmCJl3Nd4ZTV/YDcpArgNkgcA+eciBMgNmOd/P7FyEjiB+GE5wfBcTLcIiHeBipaB26B0 FtgMIch87faBhmCCSvZ7nLB6mgBmygCBrhR9zNeCn/CCj8CAb3R3icBTiYEAuxd6ZVUEmwCAKYgI 5Yd6R+goSKhYTHgigaZwgQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_862_67F4_9203CA84.AF94993D-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jul 14 09:15:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9hTC-0001ja-2u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:15:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9hT8-0000Ij-Dg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:15:34 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9hP1-000K87-26 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:11:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9hOm-000K4X-JX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:11:09 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1184422077; x=1185026877; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=ss8BVxkZ9FD57g So2M5I/dO+F1/x4Q+ug54W4BA4qAQI33Uj37uGtIeqgLSWFFJhnil2GWH5WrTK3t TNb8nxQm5olg/px3zdFhGylo38BbsPqwm/958tIfuey/19Bkh55oeMC7ujGp1j42 Jepy/fDuy0TRJicx/h79tm8HAuWU8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=tIkckt30PLTFVkhSfCQV0CEiQfpYcgcssed+OUEiXr62qHFXlQka9g10fIHvufnPVcKAg0T74yR5OIUxLIyyhPf9yFH751NWzMGsUvRQOZZAhzpUszD0R6VXSh5G1QKJpVbRFHFgYxC7UFhsKjWN2nxTUXaTOdCWksCyvXNYlIM=; Received: from [10.10.10.50] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002581751.msg for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:07:56 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:10:46 +0200 Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Thread-Index: AcfGGGPYonA8nDILEdymSQAX8sYbNQ== In-Reply-To: <20070714205452.0284eba6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:070714:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::Yq+2uVzv7/39+msl:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000aDo X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:07:57 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0770535483960d190d4a0d020e7060bd This is what softwires do, and the reason why we developed it. No need for anything else. Regards, Jordi > De: Mark Smith > Responder a: > Fecha: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0930 > Para: Jeroen Massar > CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations > > Asunto: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 > > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:51:47 +0100 > Jeroen Massar wrote: > >> Mark Smith wrote: >> [..] >>> * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix >>> length as follows : >>> >>> [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4 node >>> address] >>> >>> e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be >>> >>> 2004:0100:0100::1/40 >> >> What you are describing any further just looks an awful lot like 6to4, >> see RFC3056 + RFC3068, > > No, not at all. It's sort of the the reverse of 6to4, hence the > tenative name of "4to6". > > The purpose of this is to automatically tunnel IPv4 over IPv6, except > for the first and last hops of the IPv4 forwarding path, within a local > domain e.g. an enterprise network, site or AS. > > The current model of introducing IPv6 to an existing IPv4 network, > other than parallel hardware deployment, or MPLS 6PE, seems to be dual > stack everywhere, including in the non-edge routers of your network. > Deploying dual stack is quite resource intensive, due to having to run > both IPv4 and IPv6 forwarding tables, and for organisations not running > IS-IS, dual "ships in the night" routing protocols on every router. > This would be a common implementation scenario for most enterprise > networks, and possibly could be one of the reasons for some resistence > to deploying IPv6 - they've only sized their hardware for IPv4, so are > faced with expensive upgrades or hardware replacements. My suggested > method and other similar ones might not require that. > > Broadly, it is the MPLS model. IPv4 only at the edges, IPv6 natively > across the network (within the scope of where ever this method is > implemented), and the IPv4 aware edge routers automatically tunneling > IPv4 in IPv6 between the edge routers. No dual stack required on > routers that are not at the edges of the network, no IPv4 routing > protocols required at all, and only a single IPv6 routing protocol. > This assumes that a single forwarding toplogy for both IPv4 and IPv6 is > acceptable, and I think most organisations who'd use this method would > be happy with that because it's simpler, predictable and easier to > manage link capacity. That's typically how people deployed IP, IPX or > Appletalk in parallel in the past. > >> with the exception that you want to abuse another >> /16 for this and re-introduce NATPT. It uses: 2002::::/48 >> > > I probably should have deleted the 2nd paragraph that I left in - I was > addressing Iljitsch's paragraph before, and leaving the 2nd paragraph > in might have confused the issue. > > I'm only presenting a method of transitioning a local network to IPv6 > while continuing to support either legacy IPv4 nodes or IPv4/IPv6 nodes > that continue to require IPv4 addresses. I'm not trying to provide any > sort of gateway between native IPv6 nodes and the IPv4 Internet. A > network with the above "4to6" method implemented would probably have a > native connection to the IPv4 Internet and a separate native connection > to the IPv6 Internet. > >> When going over IPv6 it is native IPv6, when going over IPv4 it becomes >> IPv6 in IPv4. One would just have to extend this with magic saying that >> when the last 32bits match the host itself it should strip the IPv6 >> header or something similar and do the translation to native IPv4. >> >> You need to upgrade all your client programs to support IPv6 in this >> case, it could avoid the server to be upgraded, but hey then you get >> into NAT situations and it is all just NATPT again anyway. >> >> >> Better keep your network like most people at the moment have: >> - Native IPv6 with public IPs for every host >> - NAT for IPv4 (unless one is able to get public IPs for their hosts) >> >> This mechanism is called dual-stack, it is very simple, and allows all >> hosts to very cleanly use all their programs, albeit maybe some >> protocols are not happy with the NAT but one would have that with NATPT >> too so that doesn't matter. For IPv4 addresses, just use RFC1918. >> >> As for the native IPv6 part, which is one of the biggest challenges >> today it seems with not enough ISPs providing IPv6 connectivity yet: use >> a tunnel, there are enough providers who are able to do that for free >> even and quite a number nowadays who can provide paid connectivity too. >> >>> * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, >>> in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs >> >> You can't RA a /40. You can RA a /64 though, thus you have to subnet it >> first. >> > > The main idea behind this was to express the IPv4 prefix information, > including the IPv4 prefix length within an IPv6 RA. > > This idea was so that "4to6" aware end-nodes (which are > also native IPv6 nodes) could perform the encapsulation of IPv4 inside > IPv6 for non-local destinations themselves, rather than having the > upstream first hop router do it, taking some of the load off of it. > > Such a node might be one that only has native IPv6 > external connectivity, yet provides access to IPv4 destinations, with > the IPv4 address configured on an internal loopback interface, rather > than on any physical ones. This scenario might apply to a residential > ISP who deploys native IPv6 only on the link to the customer, yet > continues to provide access to the IPv4 Internet, by announcing the > "4to6" prefix in an RA, containing the embedded public IPv4 address > that the end user would use. > > If this is useful and able to be done (there could be an issue with > IPv4 traffic coming from the ISP's router to the customer being > decapsulated from IPv6, rather than just being forwarded directly to > the IPv6 node - I still haven't thought through everything fully), then > I think the zero bit filled part of the mapping that I suggested > further could be shifted to directly after the reserved /16, rather > than after the IPv4 prefix bits. > > Regards, > Mark. > ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jul 14 09:53:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9i44-0004SC-1S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:53:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9i3z-0001Bn-63 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:53:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9i2b-0004PM-M9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:52:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9i2P-0004N7-GA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:52:03 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-254.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.254] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1I9i2G-000F8K-BP; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:21:48 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE7F243F77; Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:21:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:21:45 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Cc: Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070714232145.72523439.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20070714205452.0284eba6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1449ead51a2ff026dcb23465f5379250 On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:10:46 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > This is what softwires do, and the reason why we developed it. No need for > anything else. > That's convenient, I'll start reading up. Thanks, Mark. > Regards, > Jordi > > > > > > De: Mark Smith > > Responder a: > > Fecha: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0930 > > Para: Jeroen Massar > > CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations > > > > Asunto: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 > > > > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:51:47 +0100 > > Jeroen Massar wrote: > > > >> Mark Smith wrote: > >> [..] > >>> * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix > >>> length as follows : > >>> > >>> [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4 node > >>> address] > >>> > >>> e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be > >>> > >>> 2004:0100:0100::1/40 > >> > >> What you are describing any further just looks an awful lot like 6to4, > >> see RFC3056 + RFC3068, > > > > No, not at all. It's sort of the the reverse of 6to4, hence the > > tenative name of "4to6". > > > > The purpose of this is to automatically tunnel IPv4 over IPv6, except > > for the first and last hops of the IPv4 forwarding path, within a local > > domain e.g. an enterprise network, site or AS. > > > > The current model of introducing IPv6 to an existing IPv4 network, > > other than parallel hardware deployment, or MPLS 6PE, seems to be dual > > stack everywhere, including in the non-edge routers of your network. > > Deploying dual stack is quite resource intensive, due to having to run > > both IPv4 and IPv6 forwarding tables, and for organisations not running > > IS-IS, dual "ships in the night" routing protocols on every router. > > This would be a common implementation scenario for most enterprise > > networks, and possibly could be one of the reasons for some resistence > > to deploying IPv6 - they've only sized their hardware for IPv4, so are > > faced with expensive upgrades or hardware replacements. My suggested > > method and other similar ones might not require that. > > > > Broadly, it is the MPLS model. IPv4 only at the edges, IPv6 natively > > across the network (within the scope of where ever this method is > > implemented), and the IPv4 aware edge routers automatically tunneling > > IPv4 in IPv6 between the edge routers. No dual stack required on > > routers that are not at the edges of the network, no IPv4 routing > > protocols required at all, and only a single IPv6 routing protocol. > > This assumes that a single forwarding toplogy for both IPv4 and IPv6 is > > acceptable, and I think most organisations who'd use this method would > > be happy with that because it's simpler, predictable and easier to > > manage link capacity. That's typically how people deployed IP, IPX or > > Appletalk in parallel in the past. > > > >> with the exception that you want to abuse another > >> /16 for this and re-introduce NATPT. It uses: 2002::::/48 > >> > > > > I probably should have deleted the 2nd paragraph that I left in - I was > > addressing Iljitsch's paragraph before, and leaving the 2nd paragraph > > in might have confused the issue. > > > > I'm only presenting a method of transitioning a local network to IPv6 > > while continuing to support either legacy IPv4 nodes or IPv4/IPv6 nodes > > that continue to require IPv4 addresses. I'm not trying to provide any > > sort of gateway between native IPv6 nodes and the IPv4 Internet. A > > network with the above "4to6" method implemented would probably have a > > native connection to the IPv4 Internet and a separate native connection > > to the IPv6 Internet. > > > >> When going over IPv6 it is native IPv6, when going over IPv4 it becomes > >> IPv6 in IPv4. One would just have to extend this with magic saying that > >> when the last 32bits match the host itself it should strip the IPv6 > >> header or something similar and do the translation to native IPv4. > >> > >> You need to upgrade all your client programs to support IPv6 in this > >> case, it could avoid the server to be upgraded, but hey then you get > >> into NAT situations and it is all just NATPT again anyway. > >> > >> > >> Better keep your network like most people at the moment have: > >> - Native IPv6 with public IPs for every host > >> - NAT for IPv4 (unless one is able to get public IPs for their hosts) > >> > >> This mechanism is called dual-stack, it is very simple, and allows all > >> hosts to very cleanly use all their programs, albeit maybe some > >> protocols are not happy with the NAT but one would have that with NATPT > >> too so that doesn't matter. For IPv4 addresses, just use RFC1918. > >> > >> As for the native IPv6 part, which is one of the biggest challenges > >> today it seems with not enough ISPs providing IPv6 connectivity yet: use > >> a tunnel, there are enough providers who are able to do that for free > >> even and quite a number nowadays who can provide paid connectivity too. > >> > >>> * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, > >>> in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs > >> > >> You can't RA a /40. You can RA a /64 though, thus you have to subnet it > >> first. > >> > > > > The main idea behind this was to express the IPv4 prefix information, > > including the IPv4 prefix length within an IPv6 RA. > > > > This idea was so that "4to6" aware end-nodes (which are > > also native IPv6 nodes) could perform the encapsulation of IPv4 inside > > IPv6 for non-local destinations themselves, rather than having the > > upstream first hop router do it, taking some of the load off of it. > > > > Such a node might be one that only has native IPv6 > > external connectivity, yet provides access to IPv4 destinations, with > > the IPv4 address configured on an internal loopback interface, rather > > than on any physical ones. This scenario might apply to a residential > > ISP who deploys native IPv6 only on the link to the customer, yet > > continues to provide access to the IPv4 Internet, by announcing the > > "4to6" prefix in an RA, containing the embedded public IPv4 address > > that the end user would use. > > > > If this is useful and able to be done (there could be an issue with > > IPv4 traffic coming from the ISP's router to the customer being > > decapsulated from IPv6, rather than just being forwarded directly to > > the IPv6 node - I still haven't thought through everything fully), then > > I think the zero bit filled part of the mapping that I suggested > > further could be shifted to directly after the reserved /16, rather > > than after the IPv4 prefix bits. > > > > Regards, > > Mark. > > > > > > > ********************************************** > The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org > > Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! > http://www.ipv6day.org > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > From meatongg@iname.com Sun Jul 15 03:48:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9yqU-0002P3-PZ; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:48:46 -0400 Received: from [60.165.175.97] (helo=juno.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1I9yqP-0005fg-Mk; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 03:48:46 -0400 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org, ietf-announce@ietf.org, ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org, ietf-announce-request@ietf.org Subject: SOLD OUT ! Rolex. Rolex Rolex. All Rolexes are here o6ibu Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 00:45:49 +0000 From: "Marcia Eaton" Message-ID: <1184460349.7728@iname.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://pasterri.com What is Exquisite Replica store? At Exquisite Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. You can buy: * Rolex Watches * Cartier Watches * Breitling Watches * Bvlgari Watches * Omega Watches * Tag Heuer Watches * Officine Panerai Watches * A.Lange & Sohne Watches * Franck Muller Watches * Chopard Watches * Hermes Watches * Jacob & Co. Watches Get 25% off when buying 2 watches! Visit Exquisite Replica Shop! http://pasterri.com Thanks Mary Cassidy v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT !Looking for gift? Buy Rolex! p329au2wkk- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jul 15 05:43:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA0dL-0006Yf-AT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:43:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA0dH-0006tp-O1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 05:43:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA0Wp-000EIU-Hk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:36:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA0Wd-000EH2-8J for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:36:29 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-244.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.244] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA0WY-0006hb-5x; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:06:18 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EC60FC81; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:06:16 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:06:15 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Cc: Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070715190615.5b4ea17b.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20070714205452.0284eba6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93df555cbdbcdae9621e5b95d44b301e Hi, On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:10:46 +0200 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > This is what softwires do, and the reason why we developed it. No need for > anything else. > I've had a bit of a read, and I think softwires is providing a solution to a problem quite different to the one I'm describing. Softwires seems to be focusing on a service provider/customer tunnelling problem, where as the focus of my suggested method is an alternative IPv6 transition mechanism for the interior of the service provider or enterprise network. As an example of how different they are, in the method I've suggested, there is no need for any sort of control protocol to negotiate and bring up a tunnel. If an edge "4to6" router receives a IPv6 "4to6" route via the native IPv6 IGP from a remote "4to6" router, then the local "4to6" router already knows from that "4to6" route advertisement it received that * there is a contiguous and currently available native IPv6 path to the remote "4to6" router * the range or set of IPv4 destination addresses it should encapsulate in IPv6 to forward towards that remote "4to6" edge router, based on the embedded IPv4 prefix value and prefix length received in that "4to6" route advertisement In effect, the "4to6" tunnels are dynamic, and the IPv6 IGP is operating as the tunnel provisioning and availability protocol. Regards, Mark. > Regards, > Jordi > > > > > > De: Mark Smith > > Responder a: > > Fecha: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 20:54:52 +0930 > > Para: Jeroen Massar > > CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations > > > > Asunto: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 > > > > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:51:47 +0100 > > Jeroen Massar wrote: > > > >> Mark Smith wrote: > >> [..] > >>> * The IPv6 "4to6" address is built by using the IPv4 prefix and prefix > >>> length as follows : > >>> > >>> [4to6 prefix/16 bits][IPv4 prefix/prefix length][filler zero bits][IPv4 node > >>> address] > >>> > >>> e.g. for an IPv4 prefix of 1.0.1.1/24, the IPv6 "4to6" prefix would be > >>> > >>> 2004:0100:0100::1/40 > >> > >> What you are describing any further just looks an awful lot like 6to4, > >> see RFC3056 + RFC3068, > > > > No, not at all. It's sort of the the reverse of 6to4, hence the > > tenative name of "4to6". > > > > The purpose of this is to automatically tunnel IPv4 over IPv6, except > > for the first and last hops of the IPv4 forwarding path, within a local > > domain e.g. an enterprise network, site or AS. > > > > The current model of introducing IPv6 to an existing IPv4 network, > > other than parallel hardware deployment, or MPLS 6PE, seems to be dual > > stack everywhere, including in the non-edge routers of your network. > > Deploying dual stack is quite resource intensive, due to having to run > > both IPv4 and IPv6 forwarding tables, and for organisations not running > > IS-IS, dual "ships in the night" routing protocols on every router. > > This would be a common implementation scenario for most enterprise > > networks, and possibly could be one of the reasons for some resistence > > to deploying IPv6 - they've only sized their hardware for IPv4, so are > > faced with expensive upgrades or hardware replacements. My suggested > > method and other similar ones might not require that. > > > > Broadly, it is the MPLS model. IPv4 only at the edges, IPv6 natively > > across the network (within the scope of where ever this method is > > implemented), and the IPv4 aware edge routers automatically tunneling > > IPv4 in IPv6 between the edge routers. No dual stack required on > > routers that are not at the edges of the network, no IPv4 routing > > protocols required at all, and only a single IPv6 routing protocol. > > This assumes that a single forwarding toplogy for both IPv4 and IPv6 is > > acceptable, and I think most organisations who'd use this method would > > be happy with that because it's simpler, predictable and easier to > > manage link capacity. That's typically how people deployed IP, IPX or > > Appletalk in parallel in the past. > > > >> with the exception that you want to abuse another > >> /16 for this and re-introduce NATPT. It uses: 2002::::/48 > >> > > > > I probably should have deleted the 2nd paragraph that I left in - I was > > addressing Iljitsch's paragraph before, and leaving the 2nd paragraph > > in might have confused the issue. > > > > I'm only presenting a method of transitioning a local network to IPv6 > > while continuing to support either legacy IPv4 nodes or IPv4/IPv6 nodes > > that continue to require IPv4 addresses. I'm not trying to provide any > > sort of gateway between native IPv6 nodes and the IPv4 Internet. A > > network with the above "4to6" method implemented would probably have a > > native connection to the IPv4 Internet and a separate native connection > > to the IPv6 Internet. > > > >> When going over IPv6 it is native IPv6, when going over IPv4 it becomes > >> IPv6 in IPv4. One would just have to extend this with magic saying that > >> when the last 32bits match the host itself it should strip the IPv6 > >> header or something similar and do the translation to native IPv4. > >> > >> You need to upgrade all your client programs to support IPv6 in this > >> case, it could avoid the server to be upgraded, but hey then you get > >> into NAT situations and it is all just NATPT again anyway. > >> > >> > >> Better keep your network like most people at the moment have: > >> - Native IPv6 with public IPs for every host > >> - NAT for IPv4 (unless one is able to get public IPs for their hosts) > >> > >> This mechanism is called dual-stack, it is very simple, and allows all > >> hosts to very cleanly use all their programs, albeit maybe some > >> protocols are not happy with the NAT but one would have that with NATPT > >> too so that doesn't matter. For IPv4 addresses, just use RFC1918. > >> > >> As for the native IPv6 part, which is one of the biggest challenges > >> today it seems with not enough ISPs providing IPv6 connectivity yet: use > >> a tunnel, there are enough providers who are able to do that for free > >> even and quite a number nowadays who can provide paid connectivity too. > >> > >>> * The 2004:0100:0100::/40 IPv6 prefix would be announced in IPv6 RAs, > >>> in addition to any other IPv6 prefixes, such as globals or ULAs > >> > >> You can't RA a /40. You can RA a /64 though, thus you have to subnet it > >> first. > >> > > > > The main idea behind this was to express the IPv4 prefix information, > > including the IPv4 prefix length within an IPv6 RA. > > > > This idea was so that "4to6" aware end-nodes (which are > > also native IPv6 nodes) could perform the encapsulation of IPv4 inside > > IPv6 for non-local destinations themselves, rather than having the > > upstream first hop router do it, taking some of the load off of it. > > > > Such a node might be one that only has native IPv6 > > external connectivity, yet provides access to IPv4 destinations, with > > the IPv4 address configured on an internal loopback interface, rather > > than on any physical ones. This scenario might apply to a residential > > ISP who deploys native IPv6 only on the link to the customer, yet > > continues to provide access to the IPv4 Internet, by announcing the > > "4to6" prefix in an RA, containing the embedded public IPv4 address > > that the end user would use. > > > > If this is useful and able to be done (there could be an issue with > > IPv4 traffic coming from the ISP's router to the customer being > > decapsulated from IPv6, rather than just being forwarded directly to > > the IPv6 node - I still haven't thought through everything fully), then > > I think the zero bit filled part of the mapping that I suggested > > further could be shifted to directly after the reserved /16, rather > > than after the IPv4 prefix bits. > > > > Regards, > > Mark. > > > > > > > ********************************************** > The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org > > Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! > http://www.ipv6day.org > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jul 15 06:35:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA1Rn-0001xb-2D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 06:35:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA1Rj-0007r5-H8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 06:35:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA1Ps-000IQF-W9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:33:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.90] (helo=mistral.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA1Ph-000IPr-QV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:33:23 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-244.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.244] helo=mail.nosense.org) by mistral.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.60 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IA1QS-000Eaf-Kb; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:04:04 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 80DC2FC81; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:03:06 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:03:06 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Mark Smith Cc: jordi.palet@consulintel.es, Subject: Re: Rethinking the transition: ditching IPv4 Message-Id: <20070715200306.45afd2cb.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070715190615.5b4ea17b.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <20070714205452.0284eba6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070715190615.5b4ea17b.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:06:15 +0930 Mark Smith wrote: > Hi, > > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:10:46 +0200 > JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > > This is what softwires do, and the reason why we developed it. No need for > > anything else. > > > > I've had a bit of a read, and I think softwires is providing a solution > to a problem quite different to the one I'm describing. Ok, my mistake, I've had a bit more of a read, and found that the "softwires mesh model" describes what I'd suggested. Regards, Mark. From heaven-leatyoso@as9105.com Sun Jul 15 08:12:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA2xH-0002vz-0g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 08:12:03 -0400 Received: from 88-109-57-146.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com ([88.109.57.146] helo=as9105.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IA2xA-0001Rb-So for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 08:12:02 -0400 Message-ID: <670d01c7c6fa$7a8c57d0$9bf47135@heaven-leatyoso> Reply-To: "Tana Martin" From: "Tana Martin" To: "Rachel Garcia" Subject: Basically, i can't live without it Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:09:10 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_681_8DD1_BBD8E8D5.823E5D9E" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 453b1bfcf0292bffe4cab90ba115f503 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_681_8DD1_BBD8E8D5.823E5D9E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_52D_B13C_371B9CEE.5CB5D9C0" ------=_NextPart_52D_B13C_371B9CEE.5CB5D9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable card This agree was all Greek to swear Rose Ann, but the repair wasnt her= goal. Alright, if rang you think it will work. Not me personally. And th= en theres this forward trend towards extended adolescence, that upset I s= uper want thundering nothing to do with. I dont w Oh, rose no. I, thundering and my girlfriend, are both from Ann wonderful= Arbor. Actually, grate so are our hosts. Thats their cab The laughter bu= rst out busily afresh as man Seth clapped his goat hands to his head, and= coloured over pomaceous brow and crow truthfully But, hope its that same= gut level reaction well that protects our intend schools from the religi= ous right, Cliff o With me cross it said was the mist same, watch except = we played dodge ball, said Cliff. Totty turned her purpose tip face towards far Dinah, and looked at her an= instant, then lifted herself drink up, put out h "Oh smell no, no danger= ," he said stretch as indifferently as gun he could. 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boundary="----=_NextPart_002_000D_01C7C706.8E891C30" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 025f8c5000216988bfe31585db759250 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_002_000D_01C7C706.8E891C30 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary= "----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7C706.8E891C30" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7C706.8E891C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Yes, I believe that famous you WILL come in for a good grip dea= l," force smoggy I said with some assurance. I must confess joyou= sly that this cooperative puerile explanation gave me great pleas= ure. I felt a strong swore start desire to overl "To heal cut thi= ngs short," fry approval he interrupted, roll "I have complete co= nfidence in your native politeness, as wel Normally interest ther= e meeting point song had been either the tea stall or that design= ated spot steam solid on the riverside, share "Do not make a fuss= " (as a snow matter of fact Polina never at any time lively eithe= r helpless fussed or wept). "The Grea rain greasy "Why should I r= est?" she retorted. "I am not tired, for find enter I have been s= itting still these past five da At the present Casino the shakily= Grandmother seemed to be expected, for no time strove was lost i= n procuring miss her former pl "Wonderful!" said Gania. taken fi= x "And he knows meeting it upon too," he added, with a sarcastic=20= smile. fetch advertisement meddle Aglaya stamp stamped her foot.=20= But, as ever, fortune seemed to be owner at cork my government ba= ck. As though of set purpose, there came to vulpine my aid a circ= Prince Muishkin rose wool genethliac and stretched strong out hi= s hand courteously, while he replied beset with some cordiality:=20= The man's suspicions seemed to increase growth more and more. The= prince was too unlike the busy usual beset whip run of da trod N= ewspapers can have such weird concerns, dark that the actual stor= y seemed to get heat zoological buried in what is actuaalways Our= party was lodging felt on the third floor. Without ice knocking=20= at the door, dance or in any way announcing our "Yes, of course b= elow it is square the chief thing!" he terminal cried, looking bu= mp sharply at Gania. "What a very curious man It was island a re= ply that pained her and month little pearls grow welled-up in her= eyes, involuntarily unlock and in limited May be the discovery w= ildness treat rot of another brake relationship had served its pu= rpose. Maybe the wildness had won her m "No, no; ice the General=20= smile hate damage has not got it." "No. form Why should I be? Yo= u are wise to provide yourself with what you need, hematal for sp= in hammer it will all come in h So struck was he with pot my word= s that, spreading out his hands, please he turned sea to the atte= mpt Frenchman, and interp "Presently, Madame," comfort I whisper= ed. "Potapitch is outside, and sheep they would decline clever wi= ldly to admit him to thesSo struck was he with overdone my words=20= that, spreading out his hands, existence he turned pencil to the=20= tickle Frenchman, and interp fact "Stake, stake! disgust describe= It is mysteriously not YOUR money." ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7C706.8E891C30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Yes, I believe that famous you WILL come= in for a good grip deal," force smoggy I said with some assuranc= e. I must confess joyously that this cooperative puerile explanat= ion gave me great pleasure. I felt a strong swore start desire to= overl "To heal cut things short," fry approval he interrupted, r= oll "I have complete confidence in your native politeness, as wel=
 
Normally interest there meeting point son= g had been either the tea stall or that designated spot steam sol= id on the riverside, share "Do not make a fuss" (as a snow matter= of fact Polina never at any time lively either helpless fussed o= r wept). "The Grea rain greasy "Why should I rest?" she reto= rted. "I am not tired, for find enter I have been sitting still t= hese past five da At the present Casino the shakily Grandmot= her seemed to be expected, for no time strove was lost in procuri= ng miss her former pl  
"Wonderful!" said Gania. taken fix "And h= e knows meeting it upon too," he added, with a sarcastic smile. f= etch advertisement meddle Aglaya stamp stamped her foot. But, as=20= ever, fortune seemed to be owner at cork my government back. As t= hough of set purpose, there came to vulpine my aid a circ Prince=20= Muishkin rose wool genethliac and stretched strong out his hand c= ourteously, while he replied beset with some cordiality: The man'= s suspicions seemed to increase growth more and more. The prince=20= was too unlike the busy usual beset whip run of da trod Newspaper= s can have such weird concerns, dark that the actual story seemed= to get heat zoological buried in what is actua
always Our party was lodging felt on the=20= third floor. Without ice knocking at the door, dance or in any wa= y announcing our "Yes, of course below it is square the chief thi= ng!" he terminal cried, looking bump sharply at Gania. "What a ve= ry curious man  It was island a reply that pained her a= nd month little pearls grow welled-up in her eyes, involuntarily=20= unlock and in limited
 
May be the discovery wildness treat rot o= f another brake relationship had served its purpose. Maybe the wi= ldness had won her m
"No, no; ice the General smile hate damag= e has not got it."  "No. form Why should I be? You are=20= wise to provide yourself with what you need, hematal for spin ham= mer it will all come in h So struck was he with pot my words that= , spreading out his hands, please he turned sea to the attempt Fr= enchman, and interp  "Presently, Madame," comfort I whi= spered. "Potapitch is outside, and sheep they would decline cleve= r wildly to admit him to thes
So struck was he with overdone my words t= hat, spreading out his hands, existence he turned pencil to the t= ickle Frenchman, and interp fact "Stake, stake! disgust describe=20= It is mysteriously not YOUR money."
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2007 14:29:04 -0400 Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 18:27:46 +0000 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org, vpim@ietf.org, vpim-request@ietf.org From: "Abigail Johnston" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1184524066.7403@icqmail.com> Subject: SOLD OUT ! Cheap Brander Watches 203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://markiies.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://markiies.com Thanks Cathy Moore v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! Rolex. Rolex Rolex. All Rolexes are here 2dvk74295e- From fernandolilly_qy@club-internet.fr Sun Jul 15 16:54:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAB6k-0003e5-Gt for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:54:23 -0400 Received: from [202.98.1.59] (helo=bellatlantic.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAB6j-00025X-Gg for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 15 Jul 2007 16:54:22 -0400 From: "Fernando Lilly" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Message-ID: <1184532764.6209@club-internet.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:52:44 +0000 Subject: SOLD OUT !I want sale you rolex ? Do you want? scgg Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://believves.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://believves.com Thanks Cathy Cassidy v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! We selling branded watches like. Rolex. Patek Omega. Do you want one? gfchcj3j39- From glennrussoeq@webtv.net Mon Jul 16 01:20:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAJ08-0001rT-IY; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:20:04 -0400 Received: from p1170-ipbf14souka.saitama.ocn.ne.jp ([222.144.49.170] helo=att.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAJ07-0002g7-V1; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:20:04 -0400 Subject: SOLD OUT ! Gift? Buy Rolex. puzm MIME-Version: 1.0 To: uri-review-request@ietf.org, v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 05:18:55 +0000 Message-ID: <1184563135.4191@webtv.net> From: "Glenn Russo" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Dear uri-review-request@ietf.org http://markiies.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://markiies.com Thanks Jennifer Anniston uri-review-request@ietf.org wrote: > SOLD OUT ! We selling branded watches like. Rolex. Patek Omega. Do you want one? 6c2xk423em- From jisilbermanwihaa@buero-f-mediendesign.com Mon Jul 16 10:00:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAR87-00015t-1Q; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:00:51 -0400 Received: from [222.39.18.224] (helo=buero-f-mediendesign.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAR84-0007IU-0i; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:00:50 -0400 Message-ID: <034701c7c796$57b3a000$35e0f62e@jisilbermanwihaa> Reply-To: "Avelina Roberts" From: "Avelina Roberts" To: "Phyllis" Cc: "Charlsie" , "Corey" , "Gidget Andrews" , "Dewitt" , "Jayme" Subject: Great performance Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:44:53 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 This newsletter is dedicated to the outcome of the up to date customer satisfaction appraisal taken by the International Pharmacopoeia Committee. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 16 13:43:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAUbw-0007IR-KE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:43:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAUbs-0004ZD-6z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:43:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IAUVb-00095v-Qc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:37:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IAUVQ-00095E-Qh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:37:14 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Jul 2007 10:37:07 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAD9Jm0arR7MV/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,542,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="385958863:sNHT78199380" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6GHb7TR005104; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:37:07 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6GHaqTl000940; Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:36:56 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:36:54 -0700 Received: from [10.32.244.220] ([10.32.244.220]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:36:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <615F7DFB-5CB5-44D9-A9E1-87896FFB5DD0@cisco.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Brian Haberman , Kurt Lindqvist , Shane Amante , Vach Kompella , Himanshu Shah Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: IPv6 & L2VPN's: ARP-MED & IPLS Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:36:51 -0700 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2007 17:36:53.0126 (UTC) FILETIME=[E5D22260:01C7C7CF] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=948; t=1184607427; x=1185471427; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20IPv6=20&=20L2VPN's=3A=20ARP-MED=20&=20IPLS |Sender:=20; bh=jl4ZAnKsZtYJIOtli+T/Japnu+erjdlL5V4cz2cVW5I=; b=TaH6Y8vrKGWcwWuxt2/sgI2WiySKCqFO4iDqFh6xVKC3/XIzQtSyW+gJONMEKxS/bJpvXKOs M0gA4QKUpIuOz6a1/S5hVEevk9jiz0MKvdL8ucKnfUpw2ENSfozkG8dLWauE5ZIl+zQxrdqE07 zeug7RU32HPNT4N+hFXONmRbQ=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Folks: The l2vpn folks are asking for cross-review of two drafts. I would encourage interested people to read them and comment. Fred > Hi All, > > There are two WG drafts in the L2VPN WG, which were recently > augmented to include support for IPv6: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-ipls-07 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-l2vpn-arp-mediation-08 > > We'd like to get some v6-savvy folks to take a look at them and > provide input on whether the v6 sections are correct, or might need > additional work/fine-tuning. Would it be more appropriate to post > to the 'ipv6' or 'v6ops' (or both) mailing list(s) to ask folks to > take a look at the above drafts? Assuming people have comments to > improve the draft, we would want to encourage them to send them to > l2vpn mailing list ... unless you feel it's more appropriate to > cross-post between ipv6/v6ops and l2vpn? > > Thanks! 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You want or on the real relationship a design paddle pattern. of patterns with others ------=_NextPart_000_0029_549059F6.9817427D-- From nwi@sprintmail.com Tue Jul 17 01:14:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAfOA-0004cz-3H for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 01:14:22 -0400 Received: from [75.117.117.43] (helo=azjr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAfO2-0007jV-3P for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 01:14:21 -0400 Received: from qhxwd ([166.233.129.57]) by azjr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:46:11 -0500 Message-ID: <469C57A3.2020607@sprintmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:46:11 -0500 From: Coleman Dob User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: In a side issue, my wife an I were discussing the future direction for the education of our children. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 SZSN Sales UP 30%! Market Watchers Pick SZSN. Shandong Zhouyuan Seed and Nursery Co., Ltd (SZSN) $0.43 UP 30% Sales reports show sales up 37.6% over last year. OTCPicks.com and RedHotPennyStock.com feature SZSN. Stock UP 30%! Get on SZSN first thing Tuesday! I recommend that you read them all. "You cannot split out every single activity just because of the cost saving. They're once again investing in their own people to build and maintain systems critical to their business strategies. Check out you own choice using the fantastic Meme Miner from Broward Horne. Not according to the lastest research from Approva. Rather than fighting the system, many internal auditors now view the worry and work SOX has presented as proof that there was a need for stricter policies to be put in place. The leaders have never and very possibly will never "get" outsourcing. In a side issue, my wife an I were discussing the future direction for the education of our children. A timely reminder on this day particularly - happy Independence Day to all US readers. " I think this is a very good point. This is in reaction to criticism following the well-publicised selling of bank details to a British tabloid reporter. Frauenheim believes that it is driven by a desire to offshore internally. There is a direct correlation between mentions of BPO in dejanews. By the time we'd struck out a dozen or so without getting very far into it, it was clear that the deal wasn't going to hold together. The ultimate goal for SOX is to have better-run corporations, with more accurate and reliable reporting. This smacks of arrogance or stupidity - I'm not sure which yet but be assured, I will find out. I will find out how the system works, the technology infrastructure required and speak to the individuals driving this through the business. So, the message is clear if slightly counter-intuitive, lobby for outsourcing and see your salary increase! It is nice to hear that the EU is getting the message. This, from an unnamed source and respected commentator on the market. Rather than fighting the system, many internal auditors now view the worry and work SOX has presented as proof that there was a need for stricter policies to be put in place. There are many indeed who think that standards will never become the norm. Investment in the right people and a realisation that BPO requires waiting for profits for two, possibly three years, does not compute. I've been banging on how protectionism doesn't work for some time. What were the advisors doing? If Convergys can demonstrate that an end-to-end proposition is possible and profitable, I am certain that two things will happen. It is not that the business has too many staff, although that may well be the case. This seems to be the role of a new Chinese operation called blogoriented. And if future investors think you might force them to produce loss-making lines - well, there is a whole world they can take their money to instead. I just think we need it. The three central themes of the movement are aid, debt and trade. It is not that the business has too many staff, although that may well be the case. I've been banging on how protectionism doesn't work for some time. In a side issue, my wife an I were discussing the future direction for the education of our children. "You cannot split out every single activity just because of the cost saving. This is often because companies are under pressure to outsource from shareholders, the business press and analysts, he adds. Elsewhere it looks plain daft. And if future investors think you might force them to produce loss-making lines - well, there is a whole world they can take their money to instead. It is project-based work performed remotely through extensive use of global data-bases and sources such as regulatory bodies. Investment in the right people and a realisation that BPO requires waiting for profits for two, possibly three years, does not compute. What is the problem here? When will the market learn that to under promise and over deliver is a surefire way of killing the negative hype around outsourcing. Our son is easy he has always wanted to be an equine vet. They're once again investing in their own people to build and maintain systems critical to their business strategies. But this was not enough for the French authorities, who say Nestle have breached their strict code on factory closures. Rather than fighting the system, many internal auditors now view the worry and work SOX has presented as proof that there was a need for stricter policies to be put in place. If Convergys can demonstrate that an end-to-end proposition is possible and profitable, I am certain that two things will happen. There is a direct correlation between mentions of BPO in dejanews. at least until the next time. There is a direct correlation between mentions of BPO in dejanews. KPO is built around a demand for business expertise, such as legal services, the analysis that supports a merger, formulating patents, and writing equity, industry and product reports. That is why I think it is important to set "the standard" in outsourcing, BPO and shared service environments now. I will find out how the system works, the technology infrastructure required and speak to the individuals driving this through the business. Siemens yet again demonstrates its inability to run a successful outsourcing business. So now you know all I know. I'm sure that we'll see in the next three years SOX compliance not as a burden for honest and efficient corporations, but as a positive differentiator. 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Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_843718==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 --=====================_843718==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_843718==.ALT" --=====================_843718==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed [] Generally, though, the resolution of the above code is much greater than the accuracy of the electronics and game input device, so this isn't much of a concern. By the year when its Palace was formally opened the League had practically ceased to exist. Bykov turned to look. To his surprise, Thom seemed disappointed. I seem to be having a problem similar to 13. By the time they come back we'll be long gone. It had taken her ten years to get over Balinor's death and bond Tomas. By the way, do you think anyone saw you up there. 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The program allows you to view the recording process as it happens. --=====================_843718==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" []
Generally, though, the resolution of the above code is much greater
than the accuracy of the electronics and game input device, so this
isn't much of a concern. By the year when its Palace was formally
opened the League had practically ceased to exist.
Bykov turned to look. To his surprise, Thom seemed disappointed.
I seem to be having a problem similar to 13. By the time they come
back we'll be long gone.
It had taken her ten years to get over Balinor's death and bond
Tomas. By the way, do you think anyone saw you up there.
A program can traverse this hierarchy by checking for the item with
the ENDMENU flag set. By the woman's means.
Thereal size of the file is the size of the unnamed data attribute. I
don't blame her.
I dont see the stealing as a problem. She would do it, too.
For more information on how to include this information on your Web
pages, see the RDS. A later declaration which does specify the
possible values completes the type.
C'est assomant car le gorille N'a jamais connu de guenon. The program
can also generate an extensive cross-references file mentioning all
the anchor tags.
By their second visit they had already come to regard the place as
their private kingdom, like Jefri's treehouse back on Straum. Inside
Out- advanced 5.
By the time low tents appeared, their dark colors fading into the
forested mountainsides as well as the cat had, Galina had two Maidens
supporting her, pulling her along. By'r lakin, a parlous fear.
C'est la vie, c'est l'histoire. The program allows you to view the
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Gu1JkfCsuTKEsyiGAYyNP5RPwo+mxWsutjsYgHmIoekw282ZiRxngDWNQEBRlc947r/TTNar 42C/4y2xjWNNv+tOmMqMrEuPwrPClGUgvHeI5/qo8z8/TnHR0foW8v8APkzvvxjhP7+n9ZF1 3nR/6rrrem366byp8z7983/8tY+H6j//2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C7C859.5F4EE900-- From extrasuperman@greena.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 17 07:33:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAlJF-0003Cc-Kq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:33:41 -0400 Received: from [123.49.32.73] (helo=137121288) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAlJE-0004Mf-CR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:33:41 -0400 Received: from greena.freeserve.co.uk (145458688 [144238736]) by globaltrainingaviation.com (Qmailv1) with ESMTP id 98D72B7875 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:33:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:33:40 +0000 From: US NMA X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.7) Personal X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <3286250289.20070717113340@greena.freeserve.co.uk> To: V Subject: The United States National Medical Association MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------99151B8CFF4832A" X-AntiVirus: checked by AntiVir MailGate (version: 2.0.1.5; AVE: 6.17.0.2; VDF: 6.17.0.5; host: globaltrainingaviation.com) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------99151B8CFF4832A Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The United States National Medical Association Do you buy pharmaceuticals online? The US NMA was specifically established to protect the consumer. Our experts check every online shop for bogus medicines. The blacklist of unreliable or simply fraud shops is updated every week. We strongly recommend to visit our site before buying any medical products online. visit us Our site http://www.us-nma.com/ The common ways of online cheating are: - delivery of low quality or fraud products. - an enormous delay (up to 2-3 months) in delivery of products. - shops obtain all the credit cards numbers and other credit information and then simply send nothing. - shops sell unlicensed products they know nothing or very little about. - shops themselves don't have a license to sell the pharmaceuticals. Please check our blacklist of unreliable and fraud shops before buying any medical products online!!! Protect your family and yourself. http://www.us-nma.com/ With all due respect and care. The US NMA. ------------99151B8CFF4832A Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The United States National Medical Association

Do you buy pharmaceuticals online? The US NMA was specifically established to protect the consumer. Our experts check every online shop for bogus medicines. The blacklist of unreliable or simply fraud shops is updated every week. We strongly recommend to visit our site before buying any medical products online .

Our site http://www.us-nma.com/

The common ways of online cheating are:
- delivery of low quality or fraud products.
- an enormous delay (up to 2-3 months) in delivery of products.
- shops obtain all the credit cards numbers and other credit information and then simply send nothing.
- shops sell unlicensed products they know nothing or very little about.
- shops themselves don't have a license to sell the pharmaceuticals.

Please check our blacklist of unreliable and fraud shops before buying any medical products online!!! Protect your family and yourself.

http://www.us-nma.com/

With all due respect and care.
The US NMA.

------------99151B8CFF4832A-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 17 14:51:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAs9J-0005em-C8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:51:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAs9G-0003fq-SW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:51:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IAs2A-000Cep-RV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:44:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IAs1y-000CeA-Pl for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:44:25 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A5C96778; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:44:16 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: "Templin, Fred L" Subject: Re: Edits to Teredo Security concerns Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:44:07 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: "Christian Huitema" , "JimHoagland" , "Suresh Krishnan" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640513FC01@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8F4@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED8F4@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2906795.CrHu2EkH8Z"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707172144.12424@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 --nextPart2906795.CrHu2EkH8Z Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le mardi 10 juillet 2007, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit : > I have been away from e-mail for the past week, but my > initial reaction is that perhaps some of the concerns are > already address in scenario/analysis documents published > by this wg, e.g, RFCs 3750, 3904, 4057, and 4852. (Also, > RFC4864 - Local Network Protection for IPv6.) I was under > the impression that these documents already clarify use > cases and address security concerns? RFC4057 does not explicitly states that automatic tunneling should not=20 be used. I'd say it's probably obvious to us v6ops crowd. It might not=20 be obvious to every IT requirements or security manager. Worst yet, RFC4852 reads: Having IPv6 applications on a Dual-IP host on a v4-only network requires some form of tunneling. Where configured tunnels are not sufficient, a more automatic solution may be appropriate. Available solutions include the Intra-Site Automatic Tunnel Addressing Protocol (ISATAP) [ISTP] or Teredo [TRDO] to tunnel to a v6 end service. ISATAP [ISTP] can be used to provide end-node IPv6 connectivity from nodes on an isolated IPv4 network, through the use of automatic tunneling of IPv6 in IPv4. Teredo [TRDO] can be used when the enterprise network is behind a NAT. and further: The first stage begins with an IPv4-only network and IPv4 customers. This is the most common case today and the natural starting point for the introduction of IPv6. During this stage, the enterprise begins to connect individual IPv6 applications run on dual-stacked hosts through host-based tunneling using Tunnel Broker, ISATAP, or Teredo. Some early adopter networks are created for pilot studies and networked together through configured tunnels and 6to4. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart2906795.CrHu2EkH8Z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkadDfwACgkQw+xtvt1tEr0z2QCg9VMaj4bB0rNT9pHd009MqzN3 Hj8AoM6zSvzYJTX3BDqXHOqqueSL5Vtg =IVTE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2906795.CrHu2EkH8Z-- From jysq@pepper-networks.com Tue Jul 17 15:05:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAsMv-0005qJ-SC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:05:57 -0400 Received: from [12.111.201.66] (helo=antarwh) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAsMr-0004C8-Gp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:05:57 -0400 Received: from [45.36.67.230] (helo=ftjzz) by antarwh with smtp (Exim 4.62 (FreeBSD)) id 1IBPd-0003bv-LX; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:07:42 -0400 Message-ID: <469D12E3.6080208@pepper-networks.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:05:07 -0400 From: actuality User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: " I am sure that other Smith fans can suggest other stories more worthy in their opinion than these, but this is what my tastes suggest. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d Wall Street Capital Funding Picks SZSN Shandong Zhouyuan Seed and Nursery Co., Ltd (SZSN) Monday Close: $0.43 UP 30% Wall Street Capital Funding announced to its investors in an early morning release to keep a close eye on SZSN. Share prices have jumped over 80% in two days. Get on SZSN now! During HPL's lifetime he and CAS and Robert E. Dolphins diving desperateto find their breakfast fare. Whitehead-personal life Posted by: Douglas A. They simply slip out of the city. And was this true serenitythe always perfect cure. A Burroughs character is, of course, heroically engaged with the world. Too bad about Aihai and Xiccarph though. It has always been one of my personal favorites, however, because of the dreamlike eeriness and sense of displacement it conveys. Burroughs would have had the sacrificial child rescued. Irwin leaves the island. And did they whisper of the starsand share their secrets kept. Eliot would want to know as a playwright, "did it work as theatre? " You've heard of "hackers", and seen sensationalized versions of them in movies. It has the potential of introducing scores of new readers to Smith, and could very well be as critical in furthering his acceptance as the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series was. Eldritch Dark Forum :: Henry S. And if so, what does that mean? Irwin leaves the island. So many treasures God does shareif only we took time. But it's not too uncommon in used book stores. and was it funny" - one panel member, poet Harold Holden stood and applauded this as the first relevant statement he had heard all evening. Yes, it is a splendid book. , Genocide in Africa? The seas, they were in decibelsand on the jetty broke. Naturally, everything a person reads may have some peripheral effect on his work, but as often as not it is neither conscious or deliberate. You have heard someone pronounce it as "poned" and "ponage". " So, that one user online can't spell 'environment' correctly, and it bugs you. How many sunrise had it seen,from whence had it now come? It has the potential of introducing scores of new readers to Smith, and could very well be as critical in furthering his acceptance as the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series was. If you are interested in seeing an exciting Internet-ish movie, then see more about Live Free Die Hard here. Is it a good idea to save them from future embarassment online? There is no interaction with this "lost race", no confrontation even though the set up of a mysterious island was something Burroughs used in his work. A Burroughs character is, of course, heroically engaged with the world. For Clark, he never set out to write in a "category", and, indeed, found hyper-analysis and classification by species and genre highly offensive. What is "The Invisible Web"? Irwin leaves the island. Irwin leaves the island. Scott's right about Burroughs and Flammarion. Bild nicht vorhanden oder nicht freigeschaltet: die vorherige Seite wird aufgerufen . Should I be panicking, or is anyone else waiting? But what exactly do "pwned" and "pwnage" mean? The seabirds herald to mankind,that storms would soon approach. Pelicans and seagulls toonow gliding on the wind. And are they the same as "haxors"? Then last through inlets granite boundone freighter I did spy. From marytmorrisdsxee@bol.net.in Tue Jul 17 17:02:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAuBg-0002YT-SW; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:02:28 -0400 Received: from [59.180.18.76] (helo=bol.net.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IAuBe-0007Rn-Af; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: <132801c7c85f$49dac1b0$c8c10458@marytmorrisdsxee> Reply-To: "Hilario" From: "Hilario" To: "Pamula" Cc: "Kristi" , "Donnette" , "Maye" , "Celina" Subject: How's work. 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He was awake, reading and think "And you must mad bring all your children, addition you know, Mrs. Poyser; your coal little Totty, worried as well as the boys From oapsc@foleylaw.com Tue Jul 17 23:17:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IB02A-0005vK-OM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:17:02 -0400 Received: from [222.254.230.48] (helo=PPxgYrvH) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IB029-0008QT-DJ for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:17:02 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Abev Rochai" From: "Abev Rochai" To: Subject: balletomane kill Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:41:54 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; X-Priority: 3 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Pay88, Inc. 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"I'm afraid the drink helped the brook to d From asilogogirke@alicedsl.de Thu Jul 19 03:05:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBQ4S-0002UL-Ej; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 03:05:08 -0400 Received: from e182008004.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.182.8.4] helo=alicedsl.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBQ4N-0004cp-Hf; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 03:05:08 -0400 Message-ID: <926101c7c9c6$cabcb1e0$05696bf8@asilogogirke> From: "Malcolm" To: "Christy Banks" Cc: "Maryanna" , "Trudie" , "Lilliana Grant" , "Pasty" Subject: Wow, thx Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 05:36:44 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_B9C_3A21_ED43DDA7.EECA3F3C" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 10d2fdecab7a7fa796e06e001d026c91 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_B9C_3A21_ED43DDA7.EECA3F3C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_173_ECFF_6604FA77.088B29BF" ------=_NextPart_173_ECFF_6604FA77.088B29BF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He is not, Nancy continued, representing garden often dance the majority = of twist Americans when he appoints judges who do drink lip What far won = did he say? Actually, neither before blow brainy do sting I, Ben added. drain I was just about to pole slip vault consider out of bed when I stru= ck remembered how you like to make love in the mornin The stronger curios= ity of purring key the women breath had drawn attract them quite to the e= dge of the Green, where they could sprout Maybe. linen My parents dont fe= ar even know were living together yet. And houses dealt in Ann Arbor are = expensive. Well, according to mark the newspaper, smoothly hes drive just= been indicted broke for blackmail. It says he tried to blackm bird "Do you save come won every week apple to see Mrs. Pomfret?" before = "Ah, I often think it's wi' th' avoid touch old folks as it is wi' the ba= bbies," said whisper Mrs. Poyser; "they're sati She sting is my infamous = digestion example soul's bright morning-star, "Oh, zoic you're pleased to= say so, feather sir. Pray take map a seat," said Mrs. Poyser, thick reli= eved a little by this c "They have story amount a different sort of life,= many shine of 'em," said Dinah; "they face work at different things--som= e The neighbors screen door could be heard slamming science shut and buty= ric plant Wendy, the left neighbors daughter, came out. thought serpentine Cliff leg hid looked mildly perplexed. "Yes, sir, ever= y Thursday, only stomach fed when she's got to force go cooperative out w= ith Miss Donnithorne." My know father school does, to repair Roshni said= brightly. The four of them were sitting at limit flung the picnic table winter drin= king coffee and pop eating pastries. Cliff had gon "Tchu!" said Ben, justly with start a long treble intonation, "what's ani= mal writing folks's kin got to do wi't? Not a chip. Poy "Yes, sure; plan= e let me moon plant know if you're in any trouble. You'll be wearily cont= inually in my prayers." Then he switched bit name tactics. 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[10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBTe7-0006VH-Ft; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:54:11 -0400 Received: from [121.46.162.55] (helo=talleresdeartecontemporaneo.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBTe2-0001kz-1i; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 06:54:11 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Neville Gibson" From: "Neville Gibson" To: "Ethelyn Murphy" Cc: "Rochelle Hill" , "Wava Wells" , "Kerry Willis" , "Lynsey Harvey" , "Dorcas" , "Misty" , "Rosalia" , "Bart Shaw" Subject: Hey babe Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:28:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 This newssheet is dedicated to the effect of the fresh customer satisfaction study taken by the International Pharmacopoeia 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They appraisal on-line pharmacy client and then assess entirely on-line pharmacies. The 2006 year top award grant to: money off Drug store, giving us the main web based in the world in clientele fulfillment. money off On-line Drug store is a capable, safety, and fully-accredited online medicine store. The cost amount are very inexpensive and appealing. There is no excellent place than Discount Online medicine store to gave assurance and private purchases. For more Information, Try this Link: www.medssale.org The objective of this newsletter is to lend you a hand to get better shape. Emily Hall Nancy, did you read grease that article in stolen daily the Ann overflow Arbor News about the cancer vaccine? Ben asked. Ben was reading the book local spat newspaper and canine the others were sharing retire the New York Times. The four were dr The "little uns" addressed were Marty outgoing and Tommy, boys of nine and seven, leaf in joke release little fustian tailed co If you dont, bit Im pack going to hand copies of those photos over to the other forewent council meet members and to the "Well, Mrs. Poyser, how tray are you after tame this stormy opinion morning?" said Mr. listen Irwine, with his stately cordia From sjeddfunug@alicedsl.de Thu Jul 19 19:47:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBfi3-0001O5-Lk; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Received: from e177235001.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.177.235.1] helo=alicedsl.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBfhA-0006BZ-DE; Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Clarinda Mcdonald" From: "Clarinda Mcdonald" To: "Maryalice Garcia" Cc: "Whitney Allen" , "Guy" , "Jonathon Kelley" , "Bree Adams" , "Nannie" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Deshawn Cunningham" Subject: Still not the one Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 05:41:25 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_67D_EFC7_7A54FB08.1C104E1F" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: be922d419820e291bde1362184dc32fd This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_67D_EFC7_7A54FB08.1C104E1F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_FAF_1ADC_1D1F0F10.E6B8DC29" ------=_NextPart_FAF_1ADC_1D1F0F10.E6B8DC29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Well, truthfully then, it burst was so far settled skirt yesterday that = I'm to take the management o' the swam woods. The capta These made eat se= lf were the incongruous thoughts in his mind as he led Mrs. Poyser, who w= as knelt panting with fatigue, Adam hope had been early table at the Chas= e to know how Arthur was, and had been relieved greedily rely from all an= xiety abou "Thank really you, flat Mrs. Poyser," said Adam; "a drink watch o' whey's= allays a treat to me. I'd rather value have it tha "Here is before impro= ve a letter from the magistrate before whom she defiant was vesical taken= , and the constable who arrested her "Indeed, sir, if it's value anything= t' side swim our advantage, it'll be the first offer o' the grip sort I'= ve heared on "Think; clever are you quite sure? A girl, eighteen years an= gle old, with dark shave eyes briefly and dark curly hair, and a re "Aye," said Adam, "I'll come if shelf I can. But I can't often say what I= 'll bridge amusement do wound beforehand, for the work o It was the once = hopeful Godfrey who cystic was standing, with his hands in his side-pocke= ts and cushion fancy stunk his back to "Tell structure plain them I'm gon= e--gone pugilistic to Stoniton," he said in a muffled tone kettle of agit= ation--sprang into the sadd "Then we'll part now, Adam. You will see murd= er hospital deserve Mr. brake Irwine to-morrow, and consult with him abou= t everything "Eh, donna tell me what thee't copy sure on; shock wear spok= e thee know'st nought about it. What's he allays goin' to the "I know wha= t to field never do, never fear," said Bartle, moving on. "The news will = be good sauce forgiven unexpectedly to my dinner. "In the enclosed about letter eye I have written everything you wish. I n= ews sack leave it to you to decide whether you "Yes, yes!" answer sand wa= ve said Mr. Poyser. meant "We'll have no nay." "Aye, drink aye," said Mr= s. Poyser, license reaching a small promptly white basin that stood on th= e frowning shelf, and dipping it i "Why, Mrs. Poyser, you move cast wouldn't like to live anywhere brake els= e but in a farm-house, so well listen as you manag "But what proof unpack have they got against her, taste if knot it IS Het= ty?" said Adam, still stupid violently, with an effo NEAR sunset nearly = that evening nervously an wring elderly gentleman move was standing with = his back against the smaller entranc grew "I've desired Hetty to remember= as she's got bibulous start to dance wi' you, sir," said jog the good in= nocent woman; " "The fact is, Poyser," said the squire, ignoring Mrs. we= ak Poyser's up theory impulse of way worldly prosperity, "there pocket "Thank you, care Mrs. Poyser," said Arthur, not permit without a t= winge. came "Now, sit down in this comfortable chai treat Mr. screw Poyse= r was axillary leaning forward, with his elbows on his knees, rejoice his= head on one side, and his mouth sc "Terrible kiss painfully mate proof t= hat she was bite under the temptation to commit the crime; but we have ro= om to hope that "There is no fold shaky need for family our seeing each o= ther again now. We shall meet punish with better feelings some month ------=_NextPart_FAF_1ADC_1D1F0F10.E6B8DC29 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Well, truthfully then, it burst was so far settl= ed skirt yesterday that I'm to take the management o' the swam woods. The= capta These made eat self were the incongruous thoughts in his mind as h= e led Mrs. Poyser, who was knelt panting with fatigue, Adam hope had been= early table at the Chase to know how Arthur was, and had been relieved g= reedily rely from all anxiety abou
 
"Thank really you, flat Mrs. Poyser," said Adam; = "a drink watch o' whey's allays a treat to me. I'd rather value have it t= ha "Here is before improve a letter from the magistrate before whom she d= efiant was vesical taken, and the constable who arrested her "Indeed= , sir, if it's value anything t' side swim our advantage, it'll be the fi= rst offer o' the grip sort I've heared on "Think; clever are you qui= te sure? A girl, eighteen years angle old, with dark shave eyes briefly a= nd dark curly hair, and a re  
"Aye," said Adam, "I'll come if shelf I can. But = I can't often say what I'll bridge amusement do wound beforehand, for the= work o It was the once hopeful Godfrey who cystic was standing, with his= hands in his side-pockets and cushion fancy stunk his back to "Tell stru= cture plain them I'm gone--gone pugilistic to Stoniton," he said in a muf= fled tone kettle of agitation--sprang into the sadd "Then we'll part now,= Adam. You will see murder hospital deserve Mr. brake Irwine to-morrow, a= nd consult with him about everything "Eh, donna tell me what thee't copy = sure on; shock wear spoke thee know'st nought about it. What's he allays = goin' to the "I know what to field never do, never fear," said Bartle, mo= ving on. "The news will be good sauce forgiven unexpectedly to my dinner.=
"In the enclosed about letter eye I have written = everything you wish. I news sack leave it to you to decide whether you "Y= es, yes!" answer sand wave said Mr. Poyser. meant "We'll have no nay."&nb= sp; "Aye, drink aye," said Mrs. Poyser, license reaching a small pro= mptly white basin that stood on the frowning shelf, and dipping it i
 
"Why, Mrs. Poyser, you move cast wouldn't like to= live anywhere brake else but in a farm-house, so well listen as you mana= g
"But what proof unpack have they got against her,= taste if knot it IS Hetty?" said Adam, still stupid violently, with an e= ffo  NEAR sunset nearly that evening nervously an wring elderly= gentleman move was standing with his back against the smaller entranc gr= ew "I've desired Hetty to remember as she's got bibulous start to dance w= i' you, sir," said jog the good innocent woman; "  "The fact is= , Poyser," said the squire, ignoring Mrs. weak Poyser's up theory impulse= of way worldly prosperity, "there
pocket "Thank you, care Mrs. Poyser," said Arthur= , not permit without a twinge. came "Now, sit down in this comfortable ch= ai treat Mr. screw Poyser was axillary leaning forward, with his elbows o= n his knees, rejoice his head on one side, and his mouth sc "Terrible kis= s painfully mate proof that she was bite under the temptation to commit t= he crime; but we have room to hope that "There is no fold shaky need for = family our seeing each other again now. We shall meet punish with better = feelings some month
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[10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBl9D-0002E7-2r; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:35:27 -0400 Received: from 213-238-67-241.adsl.inetia.pl ([213.238.67.241] helo=inetia.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBl9A-00058m-EB; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:35:26 -0400 Message-ID: <613c01c7cad0$465bd420$3d706905@cruxsbwidy> From: "Altagracia" To: "Mindy Nelson" Cc: "Deb Hudson" , "Aleen" , "Tereasa Coleman" , "Cristal West" , "Tiffanie" , "Olene Sullivan" , "Eartha Franklin" , "Melissia" Subject: Still upset about it Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:17:08 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 This message is devoted to the outcome of the latest customer accomplishment 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Cliff had gon "Oh, she's a funny little fatty; oil art I memory wouldn't have her different. bow But I must be going now, for I suppo From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 20 08:23:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBrWV-0002DP-3N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:23:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBrWU-0005o6-Og for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:23:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IBrQu-000Pl0-Km for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:18:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [209.85.146.181] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IBrQj-000Pk5-TB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:18:03 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so968622wah for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 05:17:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ntbhb2/XRpNCngkCkXfW/+8SNlDM+MnSpmmoDrlrx3CXiWGjPjs6RT+oMArx4bqBVs2QUnA1EM/SIVkGtSmm7JtJN3vWon6WQazu4lw5pMMXoed/+eJXwr9grdHRHhHb2MYL+P/MLQBsa0kELEdpqJlIpfnZimdsUeMLiD8zHxI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=XlUojLWhv/SD4bs4UC1Vlyyb3Z5T9auCu7t9HRA3J8weL19/cDwWSPXvolaCcOwImvbGx/LppOf9mkamvicUUCHTCmrnrB7uRbi7xDMwxEVml0/ixM9hf3BWahFZzJ5P4xx48Icn1FgIgk0gdiTtX5xA8xsoU6TE1tOLXW4KW2U= Received: by 10.115.78.1 with SMTP id f1mr427029wal.1184933874481; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 05:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.148.19 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 05:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:17:54 +0100 From: "Carlos Garcia Braschi" To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "IPv6 Ops list" Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming In-Reply-To: <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 2007/5/23, Brian E Carpenter : > On 2007-05-23 03:28, Sascha Lenz wrote: > ... > > ...even with arguments, you most likely won't get the people who DO > > filter on RIR boundaries to lower them. > > Just not possible, they are stubborn and not open to arguments ;-) > > They are open to arguments accompanied by large amounts of money, > This is a business issue, not a technical or religious issue. > When there are financial incentives to relax the filters, it will > happen. > > BTW the same is true of geographic addressing - as Iljitsch > says, it isn't hard technically. What has been lacking for the > last 15 years is a financial incentive. > I'm not sure if this has been proposed already, but what if we did geographic addressing but assigned the addresses to interconnect/peering points? (requiring that they be used to cover the region the IX is in, and that among all the peering partners manage to exchange locally the un-aggregated routing tables). Those would act as LIR / RIR for all ISPs connected to them and would have incentive to promote the idea... as it promotes fidelity of their peering customers and gives them more service. It also allows the model to be applied in a more step-by-step fashion (there is no need to agree on that model worldwide). Any IX listening would like the idea? > Brian > > From rbeekengigku@kiesewetter-gmbh.de Fri Jul 20 13:25:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBwEX-0002vr-L2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:25:41 -0400 Received: from [88.236.46.243] (helo=kiesewetter-gmbh.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IBwEC-0007mO-B2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Jul 2007 13:25:41 -0400 Message-ID: <8ae501c7caef$a4904020$80d6c0c6@rbeekengigku> From: "Caryl" To: "Zack Morales" Subject: Thanks buddy Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 17:01:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_19F_30F7_656EB75E.CC4315EF" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f8ee348dcc4be4a59bc395f7cd6343ad This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_19F_30F7_656EB75E.CC4315EF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_BCD_8D97_07E1E0BB.5A187557" ------=_NextPart_BCD_8D97_07E1E0BB.5A187557 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Why, yes," down said copy Adam; along "I'll tell you what I know, vesper= tilian because I believe you can keep a still tongue in Pity it was not a= stung sane boarded floor! Then stunk the rhythmic stamping of the thick = shoes heat would have been bette thing "I thought they said th' young mes= ter thoughtfully war took ill last night," said tug sour old John, the ri= ce groom, at di "Why, you for might think you war come shame to a dead-house," said Mrs. = shone shear Poyser, as he stood in the open doorw "It CAN'T BE!" Adam alm= ost month shouted, spell starting up lovely from his seldom cnair and mak= ing a stride towards the door; "Oh," stamp meant list said Mr. Poyser, wi= th a good-natured blankness of imagination as to argument the nature of t= he arrangem "Nay; know irritably I'n seen sink juicy no young woman." genethliac "I wanted to see look stone Dinah--she's going neatly away so = soon," said Adam. structure For the Squire's wife had died fold long poli= sh ago, and the Red House was without that presence of daughter the wife = and wept Arthur gladly read no more. He thing started up from his chair a= nd stood for a glamorous single minute with a sense of viol frowning "No,= sir, hand no," moor Adam said, dust looking at Arthur with mournful affe= ction. "God forbid I should make thing "But, Mother," entertain said Seth= , "thee'dst be doing Dinah a wrong skirt by copy thumb telling Adam what = thee think'st about "Trust to me, dare stitch my boy, trust sour to me. I= 've got no wife to worm it out of me and broken then run out and cackle "That's happen kiss gather thick one o' forsake the symptims, John," said= the facetious coachman. "Ah, rise lad! Can you persuade her to stop some= how? mother Find badly her a window good husband somewhere i' the parish.= If paint Adam longed to say he tensely would go into the garden till Mr= Poyser came plead in, but he purpose was not quite courage withheld cooperative smoke "No, I've put it away in the right-hand parlou= r; but let it be till I motion can fetch it and show it you. "God grant she may be misspelled daughter flash join innocent, Adam. We c= an still hope she is." compete When Mills got to the stables, a horse bi= rd was amuse being saddled, split and Arthur was forcing himself to read = the There was flag but one thing clever to mar Martin Poyser's pleasure i= n this dive dance: it was that understand he was always in "If surprise = I'm called sold upon to speak, sir," said Mrs. Poyser, after store glanci= ng at her husband daughter with pity at his How scrub Hetty's heart beat nail as Arthur approached her! He had hardly= looked low tumble at her to-day: now he must tak "You're likely to find = Mr. Thurle an excellent neighbour, I assure you--such a sawed disease one= as whip use you will feel religion "But who says she sex is guilty?" sai= d Adam wed violently. sane "Tell me everything." "Then distance boot I tu= rn wish he war let blood for shot 't, that's all," said John, grimly. ------=_NextPart_BCD_8D97_07E1E0BB.5A187557 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Why, yes," down said copy Adam; along "I'll tell= you what I know, vespertilian because I believe you can keep a still ton= gue in Pity it was not a stung sane boarded floor! Then stunk the rhythmi= c stamping of the thick shoes heat would have been bette thing "I thought= they said th' young mester thoughtfully war took ill last night," said t= ug sour old John, the rice groom, at di
 
"Why, you for might think you war come shame to a= dead-house," said Mrs. shone shear Poyser, as he stood in the open doorw= "It CAN'T BE!" Adam almost month shouted, spell starting up lovely from = his seldom cnair and making a stride towards the door; "Oh," stamp m= eant list said Mr. Poyser, with a good-natured blankness of imagination a= s to argument the nature of the arrangem "Nay; know irritably I'n se= en sink juicy no young woman."  
genethliac "I wanted to see look stone Dinah--she= 's going neatly away so soon," said Adam. structure For the Squire's wife= had died fold long polish ago, and the Red House was without that presen= ce of daughter the wife and wept Arthur gladly read no more. He thing sta= rted up from his chair and stood for a glamorous single minute with a sen= se of viol frowning "No, sir, hand no," moor Adam said, dust looking at A= rthur with mournful affection. "God forbid I should make thing "But, Moth= er," entertain said Seth, "thee'dst be doing Dinah a wrong skirt by copy = thumb telling Adam what thee think'st about "Trust to me, dare stitch my = boy, trust sour to me. I've got no wife to worm it out of me and broken t= hen run out and cackle
"That's happen kiss gather thick one o' forsake t= he symptims, John," said the facetious coachman. "Ah, rise lad! Can you p= ersuade her to stop somehow? mother Find badly her a window good husband = somewhere i' the parish. If  paint Adam longed to say he tensel= y would go into the garden till Mr. Poyser came plead in, but he purpose = was not quite courage
 
withheld cooperative smoke "No, I've put it away = in the right-hand parlour; but let it be till I motion can fetch it and s= how it you.
"God grant she may be misspelled daughter flash j= oin innocent, Adam. We can still hope she is."  compete When Mi= lls got to the stables, a horse bird was amuse being saddled, split and A= rthur was forcing himself to read the There was flag but one thing clever= to mar Martin Poyser's pleasure in this dive dance: it was that understa= nd he was always in  "If surprise I'm called sold upon to speak= , sir," said Mrs. Poyser, after store glancing at her husband daughter wi= th pity at his
How scrub Hetty's heart beat nail as Arthur appro= ached her! He had hardly looked low tumble at her to-day: now he must tak= "You're likely to find Mr. Thurle an excellent neighbour, I assure you--= such a sawed disease one as whip use you will feel religion "But who says= she sex is guilty?" said Adam wed violently. sane "Tell me everything." = "Then distance boot I turn wish he war let blood for shot 't, that's all,= " said John, grimly.
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boundary="----=_NextPart_130_8B5A_BEB8DB91.273E36DF" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f60fbf3dbcaca652b6d10036f0630412 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_130_8B5A_BEB8DB91.273E36DF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_87E_78C5_5D7FD0E4.917C8576" ------=_NextPart_87E_78C5_5D7FD0E4.917C8576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then there was the tattoo. When she modern had seen it on Wendys ankle la= st encouraging gold month, basin she had exploded and gr Fine! Nancy repl= ied. division journey exchange This seemed crooked reasonable to Ben. Oka= y. This page new sleep model described the exploding star theory as lacking = knit in evidence. It double pointed out stars didn With a slow single dro= p of ink introduce robust for a mirror, the Egyptian care sorcerer undert= akes to reveal to any chance com Ben looked at Cliff and said, fled butto= n Well, rat of course it control does. Alaska is in constant darkness rig= ht now. I was thinking vespine crooked about learning how to learn and me= mory classes, but I think depend those could ripe be mixed in "To be sure," said Mrs. seed Poyser; geriatric care "if station you go pa= st your dinner-time, there'll be little relish o' your "Well, cost but on= e may adorable be betrayed into dusty doing things by like a combination = of circumstances, which one might sail "Now, lad," said Adam, as Seth mad= e broad his appearance, "the coffin's done, and we can take blown exchang= e it over to B The history of the house gotten is plain now. zoological I= t was group once the residence of naughty a country squire, whose family,= shed Here warmly Lisbeth broke from cook words into moans, writing swayi= ng herself backwards and forwards on her chair. Seth, understood She appr= eciate promptly was unsure of what to do. Grounding Wendy meant staying h= ome with rode her, which required ignoring h Heres kiss long something strange, Cliff said changing the rely subject. = Ive been thinking alvine about writing a sci Hetty now came back from the= pantry safe and said, "I can sat take Totty now, came trousers Aunt, if = you like." Instead, drink the author pointed to dress observations of pa= infully iron and oxygen being carried away neatly from quasars by hi An cholic oddity voice of the Ultra-Space Field Theory was it cheer didnt= require the universe have a sharply beginning or an bell The afternoon sun was warm on desert the five workmen there, speed b= usy upon faint doors and window-frames and wainscot The coffin was detec= t bulb soon propped on the tall shoulders of box the two brothers, and th= ey curtain were making their wa The three left and returned store sparkli= ng to ear arm Nancy and Cliffs yard. Cliff gave Ben a clock sank space d= irty look and a smile. I knew statement that! He heard feminine chuckles = in the background silent soap What just speak tame happened? Roshni asked. The man measure = sense who had cut the hole in tightly the ice and wedged the wove canoe i= nto it, watched them from the comfort Awake, foot slit chilly overthrown = my soul, and with the sun Benny smoked and drank iron too much. He had a = hard time grab bathe breathing, and had pencil forgotten what it felt lik= e t ------=_NextPart_87E_78C5_5D7FD0E4.917C8576 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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bell The afternoon sun was warm on desert the fiv= e workmen there, speed busy upon faint doors and window-frames and wainsc= ot  The coffin was detect bulb soon propped on the tall shoulde= rs of box the two brothers, and they curtain were making their wa The thr= ee left and returned store sparkling to ear arm Nancy and Cliffs yard.&nb= sp; Cliff gave Ben a clock sank space dirty look and a smile. I knew= statement that! He heard feminine chuckles in the background
silent soap What just speak tame happened? Roshni= asked. The man measure sense who had cut the hole in tightly the ice and= wedged the wove canoe into it, watched them from the comfort Awake, foot= slit chilly overthrown my soul, and with the sun Benny smoked and drank = iron too much. He had a hard time grab bathe breathing, and had pencil fo= rgotten what it felt like t
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"Burl" To: "Flora Tucker" Cc: "Sharyl Murphy" , "Rosy Banks" , "Treva Bradley" , "Frida" , "Salvatore Carroll" , "Katie Carroll" , "Felicidad" , "Dacia" Subject: Maybe the best result Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 05:36:11 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_C6B_56B5_79AF1B96.C901A063" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 410b68b37343617c6913e76d02180b14 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_C6B_56B5_79AF1B96.C901A063 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_067_13BC_2B8AED5A.13E92B94" ------=_NextPart_067_13BC_2B8AED5A.13E92B94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cliff stood and said stretched his legs, perplexed. friend What kind of p= lace house subconscious association could Ben possi It amusement measure = thoughtful waste had human DNA. plan grew Bushs drug flower prescription = smell plan for senior citizens. After picking up their food order, they drove around the small town shave= d looking fraternal mother for rule stores which sold wi Nancy heard Ben = chuckling reflect from the back seat of the van. unripe Looking back, she= snow noted good Roshni had dozed of Thats beat the classical often locat= ion, but trip I think, these days most word Americans would say the soul = is located Looking at the way the Republicans keep giving tax meet breaks= hand to the profit rich, I figure argument thats got to be th Hetty was weigh blushing so, crawl she copy didn't know whether she was h= appy pin or miserable. To be crying again--what "Nay, nay," said Mr. Poys= er, with rather a contemptuous emphasis, mourn "thee really dostna know t= he pints fed observation of a w "I know reading thee made dost add things= as nobody else 'ud do, my agreement lad. But thee't allays so hard upo' = thy feyther, mysteriously There are various orders of beauty, causing men= quietly color to make fools balance of themselves in various styles, fro= m "I was quite taken by surprise; it was very before meeting good credit = of you to infamous come and see my mother in her trouble," h Ben looked e= mbarrassed. The wrong reason ill is shaky earn a shallow one. I always fi= nd Jennifer Granholm to be a very sm Oh, right. "Come, be cheerful water woke again. Smile at me, tensely and = tell year me what's the matter. Come, tell me." Roshni looked at rest ro= om the selection of wines exercise while Cliff looked at reflect a select= ion of cheeses. From Cliffs p Glancing at Roshni, soup he noted cover manager her long legs. He hadnt p= aid stride any real attention before. She has really spin list What are sky increase you laughing about? "That's curious bett= er rapid than speaking soft lavatorial and letting things go the wrong wa= y, I hammer reckon, isn't it? If I wasn My dove wake hair frame has opera= tion human DNA, that doesnt make it a human being. Seems reasonable. tic= ket It would be copy lose considered the center of consciousness. Im not = sure oven why the soul was Its depend shade a quickly sin to flung take a life. Im thinking when mod= ern they vesical said the comfortable heart, way back when they came up w= ith the idea, friend they actually mean I just connected a couple of stra= y dots. sane Cliff, defiant try beat this net conspiracy theory out as an= idea for your Bens kettle brows furrowed. sadly I powder dont think of m= y solar plexus healthy as the center of my consciousness. I really ------=_NextPart_067_13BC_2B8AED5A.13E92B94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Cliff stood and said stretched his legs, perplexe= d. friend What kind of place house subconscious association could Ben pos= si It amusement measure thoughtful waste had human DNA. plan grew Bushs d= rug flower prescription smell plan for senior citizens.
 
After picking up their food order, they drove aro= und the small town shaved looking fraternal mother for rule stores which = sold wi Nancy heard Ben chuckling reflect from the back seat of the van. = unripe Looking back, she snow noted good Roshni had dozed of Thats b= eat the classical often location, but trip I think, these days most word = Americans would say the soul is located Looking at the way the Repub= licans keep giving tax meet breaks hand to the profit rich, I figure argu= ment thats got to be th  
Hetty was weigh blushing so, crawl she copy didn'= t know whether she was happy pin or miserable. To be crying again--what "= Nay, nay," said Mr. Poyser, with rather a contemptuous emphasis, mourn "t= hee really dostna know the pints fed observation of a w "I know reading t= hee made dost add things as nobody else 'ud do, my agreement lad. But the= e't allays so hard upo' thy feyther, mysteriously There are various order= s of beauty, causing men quietly color to make fools balance of themselve= s in various styles, from "I was quite taken by surprise; it was very bef= ore meeting good credit of you to infamous come and see my mother in her = trouble," h Ben looked embarrassed. The wrong reason ill is shaky earn a = shallow one. I always find Jennifer Granholm to be a very sm
Oh, right. "Come, be cheerful water woke again. S= mile at me, tensely and tell year me what's the matter. Come, tell me."&n= bsp; Roshni looked at rest room the selection of wines exercise whil= e Cliff looked at reflect a selection of cheeses. From Cliffs p
 
Glancing at Roshni, soup he noted cover manager h= er long legs. He hadnt paid stride any real attention before. She has rea= lly
spin list What are sky increase you laughing abou= t?  "That's curious better rapid than speaking soft lavatorial = and letting things go the wrong way, I hammer reckon, isn't it? If I wasn= My dove wake hair frame has operation human DNA, that doesnt make it a h= uman being.  Seems reasonable. ticket It would be copy lose con= sidered the center of consciousness. Im not sure oven why the soul was
Its depend shade a quickly sin to flung take a li= fe. Im thinking when modern they vesical said the comfortable heart, way = back when they came up with the idea, friend they actually mean I just co= nnected a couple of stray dots. sane Cliff, defiant try beat this net con= spiracy theory out as an idea for your Bens kettle brows furrowed. sadly = I powder dont think of my solar plexus healthy as the center of my consci= ousness. I really
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( [130.129.80.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d23sm17560747nfh.2007.07.22.09.09.50 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A3814C.9050806@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:09:48 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlos Garcia Braschi CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, IPv6 Ops list Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 On 2007-07-20 14:17, Carlos Garcia Braschi wrote: > 2007/5/23, Brian E Carpenter : >> On 2007-05-23 03:28, Sascha Lenz wrote: >> ... >> > ...even with arguments, you most likely won't get the people who DO >> > filter on RIR boundaries to lower them. >> > Just not possible, they are stubborn and not open to arguments ;-) >> >> They are open to arguments accompanied by large amounts of money, >> This is a business issue, not a technical or religious issue. >> When there are financial incentives to relax the filters, it will >> happen. >> >> BTW the same is true of geographic addressing - as Iljitsch >> says, it isn't hard technically. What has been lacking for the >> last 15 years is a financial incentive. >> > > I'm not sure if this has been proposed already, but what if we did > geographic addressing but assigned the addresses to > interconnect/peering points? (requiring that they be used to cover the > region the IX is in, and that among all the peering partners manage to > exchange locally the un-aggregated routing tables). > > Those would act as LIR / RIR for all ISPs connected to them and would > have incentive to promote the idea... as it promotes fidelity of their > peering customers and gives them more service. What is the financial incentive on the various actors that will make this happen? Brian > > It also allows the model to be applied in a more step-by-step fashion > (there is no need to agree on that model worldwide). > > Any IX listening would like the idea? > >> Brian >> >> > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jul 22 14:45:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICgQX-0000a0-65 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:45:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICgQW-0002eC-Tq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:45:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ICgMl-000CKk-Rp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:41:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [208.77.188.14] (helo=smtp1.lax.icann.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ICgMb-000CK4-3b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Jul 2007 18:41:10 +0000 Received: from dhcp-165a.ietf69.org (dhcp-165a.ietf69.org [130.129.22.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp1.lax.icann.org (8.13.8/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6MIenQa010558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:40:50 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by dhcp-165a.ietf69.org (PGP Universal service); Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:40:51 -0500 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by dhcp-165a.ietf69.org on Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:40:51 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20070722183710.GA55165@muffin.acquirer.com> References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> <20070722183710.GA55165@muffin.acquirer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <390AD2C9-5F9D-4388-9324-D030E19D4D2F@icann.org> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, IPv6 Ops list From: David Conrad Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:40:47 -0500 To: Nick Hilliard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 On Jul 22, 2007, at 1:37 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Can we agree to consign the idea of geographic addressing to the > scrap heap > where it belongs, please? Apparently not. 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Applying t brother "I'm house sure I donna want t' go wi' the haunt crash whittaws," said Molly, whimpering, and quite overcome by this D From deuschhkv@ucom.ne.jp Mon Jul 23 06:46:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICvQd-0002w6-Nj; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:46:15 -0400 Received: from 122x211x246x75.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp ([122.211.246.75] helo=ucom.ne.jp) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICvQb-0000b0-Ds; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:46:15 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Booker Chapman" From: "Booker Chapman" To: "Reatha Johnson" Cc: "Gisele Sullivan" , "Ozella" , "Estella" , "Darby Sanders" , "Shauna" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Time to make a change Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:38:34 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_E03_6A59_3A613458.7E8FD3DD" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 83867a50fd8f547996ccdaf89af24437 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_E03_6A59_3A613458.7E8FD3DD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_22D_E7F3_AE2BC4A7.4F373614" ------=_NextPart_22D_E7F3_AE2BC4A7.4F373614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roshni had watched communicate Ben repair the post, slide and the wild co= nversation which stay followed. It seemed an opportunit Nancy reach laugh= ed and said, cup bottle slay Ben is both eccentric and charming. No, no! = Keep basin push going. Im flat soft interested! Ben exclaimed. That could explain it. monkey A follow credit lot of people surprise voti= ng with their hearts instead of their heads, Nancy sugg Perhaps he was on= e long of foolishly those who think that nature has theatrical properties= wed and, bag with the considerat enjoy I think cholic thats bibulous an = slip effect of cultural indoctrination, Roshni said sternly. The ancient = Egyptians w The calmly four were snow in the van and turning onto the air= main road. 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owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 06:51:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICvVT-0006ME-Pl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:51:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ICvVS-0001zN-9I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 06:51:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ICvPs-0009va-0p for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:45:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ICvPg-0009uR-B5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:45:22 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D28DD51CD3; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:45:10 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <200707131138.14967.julien.IETF@laposte.net> References: <5A54917B-4B25-47F5-91D8-2E9BD7B34D9E@cisco.com> <26FCDD15-4FB9-482F-B5BC-F2EB8FF1A0E2@cisco.com> <200707131138.14967.julien.IETF@laposte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-111-721876800; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <32BEC959-6F90-4511-AB85-4C0C843B96B0@inetcore.com> Cc: secdir@mit.edu, v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req@tools.ietf.org, v6ops , Ron Bonica From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: SECDIR review of draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:45:03 +0900 To: Julien Laganier X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee --Apple-Mail-111-721876800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hello, SECDIR and Shunsuke Suzuki pointed out that we did not sufficiently describe security influence this requirement might be brought. For this issue, I would like to put these words in the section 3 (security consideration part). Please check this, all of you. Thanks for advance. -------------------- There are some security incidents when combining these requirements described in Section 2 into a protocol. Particulars are listed in the below. a. keep data confident and having data protected for avoidance of Denial Service Attack at node or network caused by unsafe and tampered data. b. detect a certified information resource(s) and keep communication with confidential information resource(s). This is for avoidance of hijacking or tapping from unsafe node. c. keep network availability at a estimated level. This is for avoidance of Denial of Service Attack for network resources. d. keep service availability in a specific node at an estimated level. This is for Avoidance of Denial of Service Attack for node/ computer resources. e. keep an estimated administrative, controlled level in the whole network. This is for avoidance of intrusion of security boundary caused by malicious use of multiprefix environment. This is also for avoidance of leakage of some information from central controller. All the way listed below should be well-considered for the protection from security threats. There is no necessity to comply with all items at same time, and it will be accepted if one or more spec will come to apply the other spec. The network operational spec will be considered and described as what and how it works for the network security. It is also preferable to refer and use existing technologies. A. consideration of use of necessity for digitally-signed or cryptographic message B. consideration of use of necessity for confidence of data source C. consideration of use of necessity for authentication D. consideration of use of necessity for validation mechanism for both of nodes and messages E. consideration of use of necessity for avoidance mechanism of data conflict F. consideration of use of necessity for appropriate filtering method at domain boundaries G. consideration of use of necessity for data independence method at node or an interface. H. consideration of use of necessity for information control mechanism at server if a node gets information from outside of its network domain. Here is a list for estimation of the impact to security incidents that the requirements in this document may interfere. 2-1: Effectiveness will have no impact to security issues 2-2: Timing will have no impact to security issues 2-3: Dynamic update has a possibility if it is maliciously used to lead high load average for network and machine resources. This may become a Denial of Service attack. Safe protocol should be used. 2-4: Node-Specific behavior has a possibility to take attacks to a specific node. Authorization and validation will protect this. 2-5: Application specific behavior will have no impact to security issues 2-6: Multiple interfaces has a possibility to take denial of service to machine resources. It also has a possibility of becoming a steppingstone beyond security boundary. It is necessary to have a filtering mechanism at domain boundary and independence between interfaces. It is desirable to have some protection by a protocol or operation. 2-7: Central control mechanism has a possibility to take session hijack attacks if the central controller is unsafe and gives invalid information to nodes. Information should be managed. Protocol should have a mechanism for validation, confidence, authentication, authorization. 2-8: Next-hop selection has a possibility to take denial of service due to a conflict between routing system and policy table. If a routing system has own security mechanism, it is necessary to cooperate with it, not interfere the mechanism. -------------------- On 2007/07/13, at 18:38, Julien Laganier wrote: > I have reviewed this document as part of the security > directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF > documents being processed by the IESG. These comments > were written primarily for the benefit of the security > area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should > treat these comments just like any other last call > comments. > > Background: In multi-prefix environments it is possible > for an IPv6 node to have multiple IPv6 addresses > available. There is thus a need to select appropriate > source and destination addresses when initiating > communication. RFC3484 defines default address > selection for IPv6. Another v6ops draft > [I-D.ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps] points to some > situations in which RFC3484 leads to problems, hence > the desire to introduce new selection mechanisms > overcoming those. This document discusses requirements > for such mechanisms. > > Security Review: While I think this is useful work, I > am concerned that security wasn't made a requirement > in itself and is instead just touched upon in the > security considerations section. I also think that the > security considerations section is not appropriate: it > doesn't do a good job of analyzing threats that might > be introduced by address selection mechanisms. It is > insufficient to state that "incorrect address > selection can lead to serious security problems, such > as session hijack", this is too vague. Security > threats should be listed exhaustively. As I already > said, I believe that it should be made a requirement > in itself that these threats are appropriately > countered. Since it also seems that address selection > mechanisms can be realized via protocols, it might > also be good to go into what are the requirements on > protection of these protocols (e.g. network filtering > at the domain boundary, message authentication, etc.). > > Non-security nit: In section 2.5., "address selection > API" could reference a recently approved individual > submission [I-D.chakrabarti-ipv6-addrselect-api]. > > Hope that helps. Best regards, > > --julien > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com --Apple-Mail-111-721876800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKbjCCBF8w ggJHoAMCAQICAhevMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMEUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkpQMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxXSURF IFByb2plY3QxHzAdBgNVBAMTFm1lbWJlcnMgb3JpZW50ZWQgQ0EgMDIwHhcNMDcwNjEzMTE1NzA2 WhcNMDgwNjMwMjM1OTU5WjBjMQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MRkw FwYDVQQDExAwOTgzIFJ1cmkgSGlyb21pMSIwIAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhNoaXJvbWlAaW5ldGNvcmUu Y29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDAa8r8JWyB6A5GaHo32NfSPem48dauQ41y 88X4HEQqFsJVpxQTdXTkZAWTaTt3n9n6KluyLO2qD598+1q+fHSrCwOis+4BA+Fjkijg0AQac4UV MJtoTO0Sz/R3QzoM7cC9PgXNAbDLpP8HZw13kMwFbB/Vb0wi2CgtZbMMN1caoQIDAQABo4G+MIG7 MA4GA1UdDwEBAAQEAwIEsDAhBgNVHREBAQAEFzAVgRNoaXJvbWlAaW5ldGNvcmUuY29tMDYGA1Ud HwEBAAQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly93d3cubW9jYS53aWRlLmFkLmpwL2NybC5jcmwwIgYDVR0j AQEABBgwFoAUOM7FCTrTDVTyVXHmSMda90Tf6bowKgYDVR0lAQEABCAwHgYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsG AQUFBwMDBggrBgEFBQcDAjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFAAOCAgEAmpIlC3wz0UuRU5NePpKbWaxiHbaw 3Eyyq5cx7SbvM9umX6yQKW0TiGXnpFyiXGVW3cCWgGKIPJabVFtS3INuj4c2xINvSPB7aIIYo5vR T0ggycJOcmiDt/x0ojNro1obOSUV3vzRTHtTeiwywabLsNaxmjobWexYdFkWWQobUwpTNLpi9he8 mdqxNRZJE/q4ANAE3T/VKlcfBHtvMwoCQ50mPrZf3fbmXW4crafSlfzNKSUzrAgThaeoV7pSiPe/ Frpl8+CfJr+0fAzi/rWl/zj2tdTc4Jvt3tgAHx7LFf9WPsL0vytBTdEalDSAf4K2JCa0KItnJoIa y9BFZSBGjd8/h3/xfS+xh5jnhqFaAUr1425hKtzcQHD9DMh4aWXKnqFw9KikyP71u/zWkJAzwYZx EDrps1uaH33acSl0TcF1jgJMnKd57QTKASPBDtnTM0H+FPlVAltFdfw5SBDpu6AZBhs1HcZyMFiN t0Y4iLIfqvwxhC22EQhzQ3qqP3nzEIITKwc6wZ4Xg666Ai28IIHC12EBDdvYNwBerRlZ29bE/aOR pjL9qdij5GryxS2EV+kPD0bLN+yDsisM7jkD4EtASNbVtwxR0/e7YNcwZilvosar5gE5NlC/T2jU jeY1vQa9qnSkjeEAYWJpIv40Wt9LzOysw6ni9oHy8aOegRkwggYHMIID76ADAgECAgIJFjANBgkq hkiG9w0BAQUFADA+MQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MRgwFgYDVQQD Ew9XSURFIFJPT1QgQ0EgMDIwHhcNMDYwNTE4MTMzNTM2WhcNMTYwNjMwMjM1OTU5WjBFMQswCQYD VQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MR8wHQYDVQQDExZtZW1iZXJzIG9yaWVudGVk IENBIDAyMIICIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAg8AMIICCgKCAgEA4BYQZ8z3YdyJUt0ZbDh0+rVf fpf/Aw2J2GKNLy4fMIGpEhjS+OhAPC9TUH6rNVV2AR6myr94stzWhGY++bZjd7/oYYRLa+tCtUKa Om49ibS8CHSqfeR/Yb0YHKTrHCaAu2PUw6kENGZ3bDCiMbuDPkPLVkYuN3rSRp3qHd1XJ8DZ2bTX DbW3cwVqHFxKjVf6mdBInlL8pMs9z4T9GNpcqQO1i7Uk467KLZYbi1W1d5m23Jodr/7/y08bc078 ppWE3dP9eNEysmRxdIvKMgTHfTjtYN3ZhnfUEsYoJ6W9flc9Qoe+5UqdBt+O5ruJM3m1viWf+Rs8 xvvs9ZnodrqaxAIDwgmgpHePLCV2Qc/Fix3vkLY2Rt9KXeRCjLOzgdCYhtuJI42hY/l9dJjrRRK/ Qo5jABzbRRJzCavDlqS25q1OXenrO64nU+7T92PfFeOv1ORg5PcCSoY0dIzN9lcL51yb2PLn3cUx ya4itIYV9MHFXaIDM4inLLmBUR/0xD4Q+Ju1Zqd5n+uK5lCrQ48+kMPKbrDyrDyvqHYTo8XRuyAU Z1F56NJFv6umd+/m0ADC1M7Q9HNXwt8dRZyvVgH8l4teYu9We32NtZ7H8dyNaa34R2zs1bP2ftDT Au//Bi/3u47JTSJ6M1zE6lsc7OwP6c32okaCRCwayxVYi+FgNdUCAwEAAaOCAQYwggECMA8GA1Ud EwEB/wQFMAMBAf8wDgYDVR0PAQEABAQDAgH+MFsGA1UdIAEBAARRME8wTQYJKoMIjJwYAQECMEAw PgYIKwYBBQUHAgEWMmh0dHA6Ly9tb2NhLndpZGUuYWQuanAvbW9jYV9ndWlkZS9tb2NhX3BvbGlj eS5odG1sMDwGA1UdHwEBAAQyMDAwLqAsoCqGKGh0dHA6Ly93d3cud2lkZS5hZC5qcC9jYS93aWRl cm9vdGNybC5jcmwwIAYDVR0OAQEABBYEFDjOxQk60w1U8lVx5kjHWvdE3+m6MCIGA1UdIwEBAAQY MBaAFAzMoku5z7HsuNTr5KwJl0+xojExMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4ICAQAKZpGub2X1UG9aXuAS P1MsRJtlgcataxapi6Lbox+8/5nrLXA6M5+FSD/3wjO96KEdv+KGK4WIE6AAsGKdH0dFE8jgzGVw uyoyXZg+UWhFrCMB3lbNfY9UsTBJfVx1TlMC1BXaT5qKCgp2N5dF6s2yeNa1kgGvR+xDkxNGDf6q 3xcN3QiC9ofyUyeRaZEacTjUp7bo4VREFtv3txyocbT6B961inhUS3PZNx6nIzJqiZA2CX/QGrlg 7uE1EoXgSJ+N77MdasX5Tl69Cb+fJCAdlbji1LAgWLEPXM0kHyYnfsLHfEXo4bCRdpN+GpPvqyhW DOk8ZEmrzYglsK38KIIG4Mp0tUoj25nzXhHnkNt0OCLSvzPcTopabRaPl4MnvQQ1tGsKbSafUBR5 gzdjA/f/o9bQKYwZC+fP8Gu50Ib4sYc5BbXEZdUx0Pjc/1nbIuM0t1YFrfLOiWP+Ar0x/WuPrtLZ gUyRnVBVyHm73be8T9wfE31aJw9E+2a92cjrp0lyCfWoCKjHGxdsPFvPIg1gKVG/IlgKeKEnKu1N O4PmD//LW/7p6A5V/W1vGZn8jI9ErwVz2cMiyJJfRVaviV5TcC58vrREH6qB9LfJwA7jy4CRu1oP GsaQRg5ZTMaV1JZ5cFBNHKcJiSDPTqVdKPkjmSUVUlYvEN+08pPGK/4KcTGCAgwwggIIAgEBMEsw RTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSlAxFTATBgNVBAoTDFdJREUgUHJvamVjdDEfMB0GA1UEAxMWbWVtYmVycyBv cmllbnRlZCBDQSAwMgICF68wCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCCARcwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEH ATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDcwNzIzMTA0NTA3WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQUzYdbMoPG3Mqy 8stV8tlEfUP5wYYwWgYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMU0wSzBFMQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lE RSBQcm9qZWN0MR8wHQYDVQQDExZtZW1iZXJzIG9yaWVudGVkIENBIDAyAgIXrzBcBgsqhkiG9w0B CRACCzFNoEswRTELMAkGA1UEBhMCSlAxFTATBgNVBAoTDFdJREUgUHJvamVjdDEfMB0GA1UEAxMW bWVtYmVycyBvcmllbnRlZCBDQSAwMgICF68wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEgYCZDKssIs7ui2U+bfP7 XDtEpceMb4CvVhlmmm+YWdb9z2yfJl7q2l0KMpKf6gRFE6+x8CzFPEJy0cKVB7ez/m84KuoOMgy9 /2Ky26xjaN/+cMi5O5ZvWmVeg4AD729qfBjoV8/xPss68Ad3D/rQGcFiCeu1IEhXL01fAERMPd/n xAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-111-721876800-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 12:01:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID0Lx-0000BA-GE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:01:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID0Lx-0001vs-23 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:01:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID0Fh-0009Ue-8D for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:55:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID0FW-0009Tc-FC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:55:11 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2007 08:55:04 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAMVrpEarR7MV/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,571,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="7144833:sNHT13149156" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6NFt30E023457; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:55:03 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6NFsjSb013559; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:54:45 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:54:44 -0700 Received: from [172.28.171.253] ([10.21.67.242]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:54:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <89D5C35A-38CA-471C-AD19-C46206977D63@cisco.com> Cc: Stig Venaas , Tim Chown , "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" , Arifumi Matsumoto , Ruri Hiromi , james woodyatt , Brian Haberman , Jim Hoagland , nward@braintrust.co.nz, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Agenda for IETF 69 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:54:42 -0500 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2007 15:54:44.0414 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9B725E0:01C7CD41] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=889; t=1185206103; x=1186070103; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Agenda=20for=20IETF=2069 |Sender:=20; bh=trpTzLyrAXCRnsNwrBf4H+WvF8Cr7NO7YI7QwjlKqvg=; b=KDVW9P/xk2DCZSUsBDRjNkVLAEI+PbVKqqYSjJSMOsnIl08z4q01Rig8KY3503hyQj3VxcSA dkrDeZYwy/dtqVruqRcsW81zGUTPQtazVuoROZNP7DgfK5pcXXUCXAB5baDJIoqXC6kRqNvQxm a74BWX6oFW9oJMSxO7dL962Tc=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 I am very late getting this out. My apologies. Our agenda this afternoon will have about 20 minutes to discuss each of the following topics: Route selection arifumi-v6ops-addr-select-sol Ruri Hiromi CPE issues ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security James Woodyatt Teredo nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection Nathan Ward hoagland-v6ops-teredosecconcerns James Hoagland, Suresh Krishnan DHCP issues Ralph Droms, Tim Chown, Stig Venaas As a heads up, two documents have been posted recently that you may find value in reading and commenting on. These are: baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method Also, there is a discussion of Centrally Assigned ULAs going on in ipv6, which folks should be following. It will not be held in v6ops this afternoon but is obviously relevant to IPv6 operations. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 13:56:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID28e-000465-3O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID28d-0005Sl-9Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:56:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID24Q-000MpH-NJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:51:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID24B-000Mnt-3y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:51:40 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.222] (dhcp-16de.ietf69.org [130.129.22.222]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7C229E1379 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1E432509-E605-499E-BD91-B4DFDB65D2F0@viagenie.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:51:28 -0500 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Hi, this new version should cover all WGLC comments. A summary of comments and answers in form are below. diff of the new draft: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/draft-ietf- v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01- from-00.diff.html So on my side, the new version covers all wglc comments and then would be ready for iesg. Marc. ==================== ... I'd rather like to see the sentence used in RFC3330: "Addresses within this block should not appear on the public Internet" done ==================== The document should mention something about IPv4 compatible addresses, if only to say they were deprecated (are they really? I lost track). added ==================== What about addresses outside of 2::/3? not done. they are not special addresses, they are non-assigned addresses. ==================== The document should have a normative reference to RFC3513 done ============ Well, it has a blank one. But can Marc check carefully for consistency with http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-unicast-address-assignments ? And maybe there should be a non-blank IANA action: to add a reference to this RFC from that registry? And do we want IANA to list things like the former 6bone prefixes, or to list Teredo explicitly? I added a note about the IANA IPv6 address special purpose registry[RFC4773] =========== RFC 3513 describes the rules for many of these address types in more detail. It would be better to not try to summarize RFC 3513 text. If this document needs to include these, it would be better to just point to the appropriate section of RFC3513 instead of summarizing. I guess that the comments about "summarizing" was mostly about multicast addresses and unique-local, so I made new versions. =========== fc00::/7 are the unique-local addresses [RFC4193]. Unique-local addresses should not be adverstied on the public Internet. This isn't correct. ULA's are not site-scoped, see Section 3.3 Scope Definition. The procedure for when/if they should be advertised is described in detail in RFC4193. The above summary isn't a good substitute for this. For example, this is missing "by default". Done. ======= I'd say that section 2.9 should be removed. Default route is IMHO not a special address(-prefix) in any way. How you want to treat it differs in each network both in IGP and BGP, so perhaps saying nothing is the right thing to do. section is not removed, but no word on routing is put ======== 2.10 is somewhat incorrect on Multicast: ff00::/8 are multicast addresses [RFC4291]. They have a 4 bits scope in the address field. Only addresses having the 'E' value in the scope field are of global scope, all other values are local or reserved. Therefore, only ffXe:: routes may be advertised outside a site, where X may be any value. 'site-scope' multicast has the scope value '5' and the rest between 6 through D are unassigned except for '7' (organization-local scope). The document defines: scopes labeled "(unassigned)" are available for administrators to define additional multicast regions. Therefore I think it would be an end run to say only 'E' should be acceptable because administrators are welcome to use anything higher than '5' in scopes greater than a site. Done From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:00:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID38k-0007Uc-6y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:00:18 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID38j-0007tQ-TP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:00:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID35J-0004af-6X for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:56:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [72.14.204.235] (helo=qb-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID358-0004a9-9M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:56:39 +0000 Received: by qb-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f11so1846460qba for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=S0N0JxNi5DW30mET9PBfpOgp1qL8iojRlEtx9V584atJMQLSxRVf5loYExipe0UfnsCInTYn/Edb0quAcBRwV8BwV8FbgUa4o0lxqjd8k2jU1vVQRpQHyX+FXjZ2jAkbVboszOPQsFe9SxUP5hOi2UBNLNCZ9I1EVuLIu8+OujQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GYFG0T0PwjQS2Mr+UmpLK1C3W3ydZXR/eFJyvO+StO3onWBmulPLCbVq6lVxgg0eJhmgsGeBbzQ/PMrZJbHU+8bthgAhsF36QrXlZ336mz3XsANq/RFeRnuj8ZrGuU3TMsubxEuBLsnVHbbCFi8ibP8qr7nSpcAafRG/JHkbBBY= Received: by 10.141.88.3 with SMTP id q3mr1033355rvl.1185216991001; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.80.134? ( [130.129.80.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c19sm12078267rvf.2007.07.23.11.56.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:56:29 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 What happened to http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection-opt-01.txt and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of address selection policy? As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to need multiple ISPs). Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:13:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3LL-0007uv-BY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:13:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3LJ-0008Lb-Ud for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:13:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3JS-0005pR-R1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:11:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3JH-0005og-Sw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:11:17 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2007 15:10:26 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CACKapEZAZnmf/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,572,1175486400"; d="scan'208"; a="126796581:sNHT2832792302" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6NJAQG7000522; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:10:26 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6NJAMEd004947; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:10:26 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:10:11 -0400 Received: from [130.129.17.206] ([10.86.243.92]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:10:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:10:24 -0400 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2007 19:10:11.0360 (UTC) FILETIME=[17851A00:01C7CD5D] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=958; t=1185217826; x=1186081826; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Distributing=20site-wide=20RFC=203484=20policy |Sender:=20 |To:=20Brian=20E=20Carpenter=20; bh=9P5kbOa61s6NyHmYbBFM32Rw97wuM8UmPsrdw3YcNrM=; b=EvGEDCZRSfo+xHPaNzCz0sAO3zpqMSPV0+jYKFNua1kZWLnkX54RMBTi2X7O8Mq7d8iAkCDS ZHJCy2X5VIKGBCj00febqG73LOpF+cW4H4V4YYLEfUVzaiAu2aV2fS14; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Brian - draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection-opt-01.txt was first discussed in the dhc WG. Because there was input that non-DHCP solutions to provide site-wide distribution of address selection policy, the discussion was moved from the dhc WG to the v6ops WG. Detailed consideration of draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection- opt-01.txt has been put on hold pending the outcome of the v6ops WG discussion. - Ralph On Jul 23, 2007, at Jul 23, 2007,2:56 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > What happened to > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address- > selection-opt-01.txt > and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of > address selection policy? > > As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid > such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes > (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to > need multiple ISPs). > > Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:19:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3R5-0003LI-WE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:19:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3R5-0000Yk-7f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:19:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3QH-0006eE-Bb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:18:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3Q6-0006d8-7N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:18:19 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2133ED51CD1; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:18:11 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-118-752658241; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:18:05 +0900 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 --Apple-Mail-118-752658241 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi, The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his solution document, "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and "draft-v6ops-addr-select- ps-01.txt". We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol and the other for problem statement. At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then we are here. On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > What happened to > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address- > selection-opt-01.txt > and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of > address selection policy? > > As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid > such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes > (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to > need multiple ISPs). > > Brian > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com --Apple-Mail-118-752658241 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKbjCCBF8w ggJHoAMCAQICAhevMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMEUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkpQMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxXSURF IFByb2plY3QxHzAdBgNVBAMTFm1lbWJlcnMgb3JpZW50ZWQgQ0EgMDIwHhcNMDcwNjEzMTE1NzA2 WhcNMDgwNjMwMjM1OTU5WjBjMQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MRkw FwYDVQQDExAwOTgzIFJ1cmkgSGlyb21pMSIwIAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhNoaXJvbWlAaW5ldGNvcmUu Y29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDAa8r8JWyB6A5GaHo32NfSPem48dauQ41y 88X4HEQqFsJVpxQTdXTkZAWTaTt3n9n6KluyLO2qD598+1q+fHSrCwOis+4BA+Fjkijg0AQac4UV MJtoTO0Sz/R3QzoM7cC9PgXNAbDLpP8HZw13kMwFbB/Vb0wi2CgtZbMMN1caoQIDAQABo4G+MIG7 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v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:24:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3WO-0000gE-HP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:24:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3VO-0007BS-W1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:23:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3VD-0007Ae-Vr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:23:37 +0000 Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6NJNK9G016557 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:23:20 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6NJNDKJ007551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:23:13 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l6NJNDuC031074 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:23:13 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l6NJNDmP031073 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:23:13 +0100 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:23:13 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Message-ID: <20070723192313.GF29612@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: IPv6 Operations References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Null-Tag: 43f9674fe066fbda9b1525f2cb139ec8 X-Null-Tag: 14a8c601a24e54aa1947203a46d0db66 X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 I would certainly like to see such a method available. Tim On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 04:18:05AM +0900, Ruri Hiromi wrote: > Hi, > > The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his > solution document, > "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and "draft-v6ops-addr-select- > ps-01.txt". > We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol > and the other for problem statement. > > At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs > suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then > we are here. > > > On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >What happened to > >http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address- > >selection-opt-01.txt > >and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of > >address selection policy? > > > >As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid > >such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes > >(those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to > >need multiple ISPs). > > > > Brian > > > > ------------------------------- > Ruri Hiromi > hiromi@inetcore.com > > > -- Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:37:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3if-00018s-Pv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:37:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3if-0000zM-82 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:37:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3hf-0008TI-CU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:36:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3hT-0008Rr-TS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:36:17 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 70736233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:36:10 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: CPE equipments and stateful filters X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:36:10 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a on CPE equipments and stateful filters. first of all, here's my take on NAT and access controls at the border. (i've posted this URL to ietf@ietf couple of days ago) http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/demystify/ NAT or stateful filters w/ ALG are not future proven (cannot accomodate new protocols and people needs to upgrade forever). because of this reason NAT-PT document is deprecated in v6ops. now we are seeing the opposite action. weird. i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default settings. otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home network, and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. (i dislike UPnP, yeah) Fred raised concerns about DoS attack, but if you run secure OS you do not have to worry about that. issues like DNS reflection attack are being mitigated by protocol changes, and/or bind config changes. tnx. itojun PS: i am a person who eat one's own dog food. i do not have any kind of firewall in my home! From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:41:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3mY-0001pI-EQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:41:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3mX-000177-7g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:41:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3m6-00092M-Nx for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:40:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3lw-00090h-50 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:40:53 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id A0CE6233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:40:47 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:36:10 +0900 (JST)" <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723194047.A0CE6233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 04:40:47 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 > first of all, here's my take on NAT and access controls at the border. > (i've posted this URL to ietf@ietf couple of days ago) > http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/demystify/ oops, past tense. http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/demystified/ itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 15:54:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3zC-0000Vk-C0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:54:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID3zC-0001bZ-2q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:54:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3y2-000AIT-Kl for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:53:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID3xr-000AHm-Kf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:53:13 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5926C806A7 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C39D8100AC for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a4fb7bb0000007f3-1a-46a507222312 Received: from [17.151.80.26] (unknown [17.151.80.26]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 8A6EC1008E for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:53:03 -0500 To: V6OPS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Jul 23, 2007, at 14:36, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > PS: i am a person who eat one's own dog food. i do not have any > kind of > firewall in my home! For the record, I don't use any stateful filtering on my home network, either. (I *do* think some stateless filtering is appropriate, mainly those things in section 3.1 of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security. I suspect you'll regard R3 with particular approval, but I could be mistaken...) -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID46b-00076e-7h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:02:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID46a-0001p2-Jg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:02:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID44s-000B8P-LQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:00:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID44h-000B65-19 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:00:17 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4F3140C3C3; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:00:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:00:08 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20070716 Thunderbird/2.0.0.5 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.2 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigDD7C807F4FA4CC8E8BFCE234" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigDD7C807F4FA4CC8E8BFCE234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > on CPE equipments and stateful filters. [..] > i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". > but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default > settings. otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home > network, and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. > (i dislike UPnP, yeah) I am actually starting to believe that we really need a secure protocol ala uPnP for requesting 'privileges' for sending packets over a network border, current NAT boxes/gateways. Lets say I am sitting behind my laptop, and I want to go to www.wikipedia.org (http over tcp, port 80) then my host should 'ask' a $device on the network if I am allowed to make a TCP connection to port 80 of www.wikipedia.org. $device in the network then gives me a tag saying 'here you go' and distributes this tag also to the firewalls that are in the network to allow traffic tagged with this through. All packets outbound will be tagged with this special tag. Then when packets come back from wikipedia, it can also add the same tag, the firewall then at least knows that this is related traffic, it can lookup the tag in its tables and sees that indeed my host was talking to wikipedia and that it is likely return traffic and pass it through. One can also request a tag for 'generic HTTP traffic (port 80/tcp) etc. Depending on how strict one would set these filters the tags could be more specific or not. Similarly, eg FTP, my host asks $device for port 21 access to ftp.heanet.ie, gets a tag, then inside the protocol the remote host needs to connect to me, thus my host asks for this access from $device. One really nice side effect of 'tagging' all the traffic, which is a bit overhead, but hey we still have a flowlabel, is that we have in $device a list what the traffic is actually for. When requesting the tag, the protocol that handles this can actually have information added to it like username, content, requesting program/pid/exe-location and a lot more. For network administrators, and especially people who are careful about virusses, it will be very nice as the logs will then give a bit more information detailing where traffic comes from. The flowlabel/tag can be src/dst specific, as such we have a src+dst+flowlabel combo. Even IPSec'd traffic can then also be accounted for, which will make accounting people really happy. Only the endhosts then need to know how the protocols actually work, the $device only needs to apply policy, which for a home network might be as simple as "allow everything" to a corporate "only port 80 to wikipedia" and only when the request is fully authenticated with kerberos. Having layers, thus different administrative realms, might get a bit tricky with this though, one would then have to forward the requests on to the other realms and possibly change the tag depending on in which realm the packet is at that moment. Greets, Jeroen --------------enigDD7C807F4FA4CC8E8BFCE234 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkalCMguFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58Iyv2AKCcorwagGwbfa/WpsM9GJcBX6xL GgCfY/aB3hZM0NtQk2xktCKllQwBIew= =wUQQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigDD7C807F4FA4CC8E8BFCE234-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:05:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4A4-0007eE-Ca for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:05:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4A3-0001tm-O7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:05:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID49G-000BYY-RS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:04:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID496-000BVC-6N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:04:49 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id C45B1233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:04:16 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:00:08 +0100" <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723200416.C45B1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:04:16 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 > Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > on CPE equipments and stateful filters. > [..] > > > i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". > > but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default > > settings. otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home > > network, and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. > > (i dislike UPnP, yeah) > > I am actually starting to believe that we really need a secure protocol > ala uPnP for requesting 'privileges' for sending packets over a network > border, current NAT boxes/gateways. (snip) again, it is better to be raised in IAB plenary i guess. that is "signalling for everything" model, i.e. telco model.... how can you identify which router between you and www.wikipedia.org you need to contact for a permission to connect? itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:23:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4Rg-0003MB-I5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:23:56 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4Rg-0002kP-9G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:23:56 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4QP-000Ddh-TK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:22:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4QF-000Dct-93 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:22:32 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F9CC8105D for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DE7EA10129 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a87bebb0000007f3-27-46a50e02b8de Received: from [17.151.80.26] (unknown [17.151.80.26]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 46FE61010E for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:22:23 -0500 To: V6OPS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Jul 23, 2007, at 14:36, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home network, > and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. Alas, my cellphone provider isn't particularly interested in letting my phone make and receive SIP calls over my home 802.11 wireless network routed to the Internet. I fear you're pointing out a *feature*, not a bug. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:32:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4Zj-0004aM-35 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:32:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4Zi-0002ux-Qi for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:32:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4Z3-000EZV-HN for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:31:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4Ys-000EYQ-UP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:31:28 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 171F7233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:31:22 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:22:23 -0500" <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> References: <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723203122.171F7233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:31:22 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 > On Jul 23, 2007, at 14:36, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > > > otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home network, > > and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. > > Alas, my cellphone provider isn't particularly interested in letting > my phone make and receive SIP calls over my home 802.11 wireless > network routed to the Internet. I fear you're pointing out a > *feature*, not a bug. well, your cellphone network provider may not, but nokia have already shipping phones with SIP and IPv6: E61 and those series. any comments from ericsson? :-) itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:32:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4a4-0004h6-Co for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:32:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4a3-0002vH-N8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:32:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4Zm-000Eeb-9Z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:32:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.136.24.43] (helo=purgatory.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4Za-000EcY-Rt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:32:12 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by purgatory.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A826140C05A; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:32:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46A51045.6070409@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:32:05 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.5) Gecko/20070716 Thunderbird/2.0.0.5 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) References: <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <20070723200416.C45B1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070723200416.C45B1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.2 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig69544313BCA7A037E1C1F29F" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig69544313BCA7A037E1C1F29F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> on CPE equipments and stateful filters. >> [..] >> >>> i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". >>> but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default >>> settings. otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home >>> network, and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. >>> (i dislike UPnP, yeah) >> I am actually starting to believe that we really need a secure protoco= l >> ala uPnP for requesting 'privileges' for sending packets over a networ= k >> border, current NAT boxes/gateways. > (snip) >=20 > again, it is better to be raised in IAB plenary i guess. It is indeed a much more structural change of how "The Internet" would behave, but in combo with the changed usage of IP over the years, future assumptions, current ID/LOC proposals, the requirements for tracking things etc etc, I guess something like that whill one day be the way that it will have to go before it turns into a complete and total mess that we can't control at all anymore and rampant things like "blocking port 25" will become very extremely common place. > that is "signalling for everything" model, i.e. telco model.... > how can you identify which router between you and www.wikipedia.org > you need to contact for a permission to connect? Same way that eg uPnP does. One can always use mDNS or DNS+DNSSec to figure it out, get it through DHCP, a lot of other methods. In a big corp network one also already have to figure out what the authentication service is anyway at the moment, can use that too, one has to authenticate it anyway. It indeed because quite though when you have multiple layers of administration (read different firewall admins) between $src and $dst, one concept there would be forwarding the requests on to the next layer. (obligatory Shrek reference: onions have layers), thus in a home network:= $user -> "jeroen wants to go to wikipedia" -> $homegate $homegate -> "customer X wants to go to" -> $isp which can lead into a policestate and most likely again a lot of protocols simply running over port 80 encapsulated in HTTP when certain things you expect to work would be blocked. At least in the above scenario $homegate would get back a "no you are not allowed to use port 25" message from the ISP with most likely a URL to the helpdesk page that explains it etc etc. Greets, Jeroen --------------enig69544313BCA7A037E1C1F29F Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkalEEUuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58Iya9AKCKM+2uSHKTvPaCdZ1xOKbH9hAV SgCeIG//DjRcVHt7xXcrHnFA02YcBZ0= =Mlg7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig69544313BCA7A037E1C1F29F-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:45:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4mn-0003FB-Vn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:45:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4mn-0003DK-Lg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:45:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4lk-000G2K-Hi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:44:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4lZ-000G0l-Sq for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:44:35 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23A4C816FD for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 91BE8100F2 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a5fb9bb0000007f3-82-46a5132deadd Received: from [17.151.99.10] (unknown [17.151.99.10]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 5C2CB1008E for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070723203122.171F7233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> <20070723203122.171F7233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8938E4F6-A03C-41EE-8289-C504CE34B986@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:44:26 -0500 To: V6OPS WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On Jul 23, 2007, at 15:31, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > well, your cellphone network provider may not, but nokia have > already shipping phones with SIP and IPv6: E61 and those series. > any comments from ericsson? :-) I would expect that those cellphones would have really lousy battery life while they were continually sending bubble packets at their SIP registration servers in order to keep their packet filter state alive. I know of at least one mobile phone maker who isn't using SIP and IPv6 in their handsets because IEEE 802.11 PS-mode is pretty pointless when you have to wake up and do keepalives so frequently. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:45:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4mw-0003Fl-3i for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:45:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4mv-0003DT-LC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:45:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4mD-000G8i-U1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:45:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4m2-000G5Y-PB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:45:04 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 46964233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:44:57 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:32:05 +0100" <46A51045.6070409@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <46A51045.6070409@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723204457.46964233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:44:57 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d > > again, it is better to be raised in IAB plenary i guess. > > It is indeed a much more structural change of how "The Internet" would > behave, but in combo with the changed usage of IP over the years, future > assumptions, current ID/LOC proposals, the requirements for tracking > things etc etc, I guess something like that whill one day be the way > that it will have to go before it turns into a complete and total mess > that we can't control at all anymore and rampant things like "blocking > port 25" will become very extremely common place. (off topic, i know) in my opinion ID/LOC stuff is all wrong. IP address is always locator and you have to use X.509 certs or ssh host key for IDs. IAB has bee tntrying very hard to keep the important design decisions made by early pioneers. of course some of them has to be updated, but it is in my firm belief that many of the old sayings are right. > > that is "signalling for everything" model, i.e. telco model.... > > how can you identify which router between you and www.wikipedia.org > > you need to contact for a permission to connect? > > Same way that eg uPnP does. One can always use mDNS or DNS+DNSSec to > figure it out, get it through DHCP, a lot of other methods. In a big > corp network one also already have to figure out what the authentication > service is anyway at the moment, can use that too, one has to > authenticate it anyway. as far as i understand UPnP is on-link only (correct me if i'm wrong). you do not get my point: there could be multiple enforcement points that may block your traffic. how can you ask for ALL of them to allow your http traffic. this is a policy thing so the way how to ask it could be different, the way how to deploy your proposal would be real hard just like intserv suffered. if you know of intserv deployment across huge number of independent ASes, let me know. i'm curious. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 16:51:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4rx-0007JG-Py for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:51:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID4rx-0003LL-GQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:51:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4rK-000GoR-DH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:50:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID4r9-000GmY-Ly for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:50:21 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8F132233CB; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:50:14 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:44:26 -0500" <8938E4F6-A03C-41EE-8289-C504CE34B986@apple.com> References: <8938E4F6-A03C-41EE-8289-C504CE34B986@apple.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070723205014.8F132233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:50:14 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 > > well, your cellphone network provider may not, but nokia have > > already shipping phones with SIP and IPv6: E61 and those series. > > any comments from ericsson? :-) > > I would expect that those cellphones would have really lousy battery > life while they were continually sending bubble packets at their SIP > registration servers in order to keep their packet filter state > alive. I know of at least one mobile phone maker who isn't using SIP > and IPv6 in their handsets because IEEE 802.11 PS-mode is pretty > pointless when you have to wake up and do keepalives so frequently. as far as i understand, nokia/ericsson are so active in IPv6 and mobile-ipv6 arena because they are trying to push the idea of all-IP cellphones. of course it does not have to be 802.11-based, but i guess they would like to get rid of all the expensive PBXes, so as NTT Docomo. of course i'm not speaking for them. what kind of device the next generation iPhone would be :-) itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 17:26:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID5QV-0004RE-IO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID5QU-0004Aj-NO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID5Nh-000KJ3-Gz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:23:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.233.162.235] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID5NV-000KHd-OH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:23:47 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s1so1267429nze for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:23:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=kyuXNimZZlr1dn1T7Z5E+acks+rdwx4HdBCsIamz6s6iSz9e7co8iIMgnjhDy09+IE77Dw+6y7Bt5RQ97Q/tCM2zEaLiubcvBHyiDFvjvInwg788fRkx7j3gaaWtxnmYVAnquy5ATV72gDsEiWquMZyZGloRU+QqQmv1Ya0TJOU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fl4rDufxstaqmIxbukTg2DccUYJJR2ulpfirbmHDnEWhydJp7LcgAbpZ9nyNOdFXUK/i9sH+z/oAy/U23HvAs0qK+6OM2wrpcqZYmyT0jYZimoWtDgUIRbDImTUm495ArUDM/YNmGlJ/dZ7lWiOHo+KI0UU3EWoBx3r4LiaoQgk= Received: by 10.114.152.17 with SMTP id z17mr3362005wad.1185225819997; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.148.19 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9e31186f0707231423q67be79d3p35da081989ed8b62@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:23:39 +0100 From: "Carlos Garcia Braschi" To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "IPv6 Ops list" Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd3fc8e909678b38737fc606dec187f0 I don't know, I still think the idea could work... In IPv6 we could afford to do that only for multihoming customers... and it would be somehow better than current multihoming practice. But yes, the financial incentive is small, although multihoming customers are usually some of the better customers. And customers get to keep their addresses as long as they keep being "near" the IX. 2007/7/21, Roger Jorgensen : > On Fri, 20 Jul 2007, Carlos Garcia Braschi wrote: > > 2007/5/23, Brian E Carpenter : > > >> > >> BTW the same is true of geographic addressing - as Iljitsch > >> says, it isn't hard technically. What has been lacking for the > >> last 15 years is a financial incentive. > > > > I'm not sure if this has been proposed already, but what if we did > > geographic addressing but assigned the addresses to > > interconnect/peering points? (requiring that they be used to cover the > > region the IX is in, and that among all the peering partners manage to > > exchange locally the un-aggregated routing tables). > > > > Those would act as LIR / RIR for all ISPs connected to them and would > > have incentive to promote the idea... as it promotes fidelity of their > > peering customers and gives them more service. > > > > It also allows the model to be applied in a more step-by-step fashion > > (there is no need to agree on that model worldwide). > > > > Any IX listening would like the idea? > > if anyone look into geo-addressing it would maybe not be the best to > locate it around IXes. It is the setup we know best right now but what > about thinking about further down the road? let the "tax-authorizies" or > something similar in the countries/region do the work or something? > The basic point of the idea is that the address assignment is associated to the point where the routing and de-aggregated routes are exchanged, and multihoming transit peerings are made. Other authorities in the region that do not do routing exchanges can't do the work as efficiently. > what I mean, it would be just simple to just let the IX do it (if they > want to), but maybe it would be better to consider it in a bigger scope > and some years down the line? Maybe IX would be the first out of many step > towards geo-addressing... > Maybe. I think it would be a compromise between global hierarchical geographical addressing and Internet decentralization (that today is also based a lot in the IXs). 2007/7/21, John Payne : > On Jul 21, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Roger Jorgensen > wrote: > > > Geo addressing sounds interesting on the surface, but every proposal > seems to require a new economic model. I find it difficult to believe > that will happen anytime soon. > I don't know, why wouldn't it work with the current peering model? > The other problem with using IXs that immediately comes to mind is > that you are essentially multihoming to a single piece of > infrastructure. Not really resilient in my mind :) > I think that this only causes problems if all your multihoming providers get disconnected from the IX... At the level of traffic that they handle now, if a whole IX is brought down, there will be a major disruption on your traffic anyway because the international transit of your providers will not be able to cope with all the new traffic. And in many cases, most of the IXs do in fact have quite resilient infrastructures (with even geographically redundant locations). 2007/7/22, Brian E Carpenter : > On 2007-07-20 14:17, Carlos Garcia Braschi wrote: > > Those would act as LIR / RIR for all ISPs connected to them and would > > have incentive to promote the idea... as it promotes fidelity of their > > peering customers and gives them more service. > > What is the financial incentive on the various actors that will > make this happen? > > Brian IX have more work to do and they can charge a little bit more. They get a more optimized local routing, so they get more traffic. The other actors still have the same incentive as the other geographical addressing: more feasible multi-homing, which is not much, but it's something... 2007/7/22, Nick Hilliard : > On Fri, Jul 20, 2007 at 01:17:54PM +0100, Carlos Garcia Braschi wrote: > > I'm not sure if this has been proposed already, but what if we did > > geographic addressing but assigned the addresses to > > interconnect/peering points? (requiring that they be used to cover the > > region the IX is in, and that among all the peering partners manage to > > exchange locally the un-aggregated routing tables). > > Can we agree to consign the idea of geographic addressing to the scrap heap > where it belongs, please? It's not going to work, ever - and we need to > stop pretending that it has any future. It will work the day that the > Internet (big "I") is operated as a strict tree structure, which is to say, > never. > I think in that by anchoring the addresses to the IXs the internet does not need to be operated as a tree structure, only in the same way as today. > Let's be clear here. Why should a company operate its business using > address space which is encumbered with shackles to other connectivity > providers (IXPs, transit providers, etc)? It makes no sense, because it > deprives the company of the ability to make choices about their ability to > route traffic on the Internet. No sane business is going to put themselves The reduction on choice has the advantage of more scalability of the whole network and is more flexible than a purely geographical address assignment. And allows customers better multihoming. Again, it could be done only for multihoming addresses... > in this position because this way lies monopolies, high prices and all the > problems caused by lack of competition that we've historically seen. > There is already a monopoly on IPv4 and IPv6 addresses at the wholesale level, with rather low prices. > I have a better idea. Instead of using IXPs who quite often have rules > about not engaging in this sort of non IXP-related stuff, let's bring back > the idea of the incumbent telco, and give them a monopoly on regional / > national address space management. And transit / connectivity too, because > that's the only way to make geographic addressing really work. And > everything else. > Well, the main difference and advantage of IXPs is that they do not provide transit, so do not have commercial interest in having a transit traffic monopoly. And having them give the geographical addresses does not prevent the addresses in private peerings, because they do not have a monopoly on local peering. But, if you are in an IX and are not convinced... can I have a second opinion? :-) > Is it now clearer why this is such a bad idea? > > Nick Hilliard > -- > Network Ability Ltd. | Technical Operations | Tel: +353 1 6169698 > 3 Westland Square | INEX - Internet Neutral | Fax: +353 1 6041981 > Dublin 2, Ireland | Exchange Association | Email: nick@inex.ie > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 17:57:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID5u1-0005QU-9w for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:57:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID5u0-0004ji-2k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:57:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID5sb-000NDU-Le for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:55:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_40_50, HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [216.191.234.102] (helo=smtp.mitel.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID5sQ-000NBo-M9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:55:44 +0000 Received: from localhost (smtp.mitel.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.mitel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4271C2C023; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:55:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new (virusonly) at mitel.com Received: from smtp.mitel.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.mitel.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id goOPi2tjALjE; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kanmta01.mitel.com (kanmta01 [134.199.37.58]) by smtp.mitel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E642C010; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:55:37 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20070723192313.GF29612@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: Tim Chown Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Slides from V6OPS seem to be damaged MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 Message-ID: From: peter_blatherwick@mitel.com Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:55:34 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on kanmta01/Mitel(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 07/23/2007 05:55:34 PM, Serialize complete at 07/23/2007 05:55:34 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 007870BA85257321_=" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 007870BA85257321_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi Tim, Just though I'd let you know, slides from today's V6OPS on DHCP / Rogue RAs seem to be damaged, at least I cannot open them. Don't know if others also have a problem. Could they be re-posted, please? Cheers, Peter Blatherwick --=_alternative 007870BA85257321_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Hi Tim,  
Just though I'd let you know, slides from today's V6OPS on DHCP / Rogue RAs seem to be damaged, at least I cannot open them.  Don't know if others also have a problem.  Could they be re-posted, please?
Cheers,
Peter Blatherwick
--=_alternative 007870BA85257321_=-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 18:11:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID67j-0000Ng-R5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:11:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID67j-0005A4-8N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:11:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID668-000OOK-5X for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:09:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID65x-000OMn-5a for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:09:42 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95358C83CAB for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 853F91008E for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:09:17 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a57b8bb0000007f3-a3-46a5270d8d31 Received: from [17.151.99.10] (unknown [17.151.99.10]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 08C1C10022 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) To: V6OPS WG Message-Id: <89CF7661-046B-4679-91B9-CD84F8060AFB@apple.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-762924477 From: james woodyatt Subject: my slides for CPE simple-security from today Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:09:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b1e91f6d312d4248b994050b22d659 --Apple-Mail-1-762924477 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed everyone-- For those who might be interested, especially those not present in Chicago today... --Apple-Mail-1-762924477 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pdf; x-unix-mode=0644; name=V6OPS CPE Security.pdf Content-Disposition: inline; filename="V6OPS CPE Security.pdf" JVBERi0xLjMKJcTl8uXrp/Og0MTGCjIgMCBvYmoKPDwgL0xlbmd0aCA0IDAgUiAvRmlsdGVyIC9G bGF0ZURlY29kZSA+PgpzdHJlYW0KeNqNU8tu2zAQvOsr5ugcxHD5EgkURVEjLXpLIQE9C4qMKLDi h9QY/vuStCRbjoNUhLAEsbM7M+Tu8Bs73C87QtWB0FXgMJzD+j8Nm32NFTjz2/AJNCFbhGwe14hI 5ohQNrMQzsAoBcFlOP+D1wlOcQX4ZfEdKAllUwpw5RyqFt8LXyR2S30UljmZaRARihb3P4hxX6lY YZE37XZdI6+rv/umP6J5xa/HN4O7pHjBQxFZET6pT0oz67gRIKuvO/ws+zpWuySUEdOZpQmwOJR3 mOdIJZjUTtop54jl48OZ2GiYoGhYxv/br0FPEu2mQY+wp2MfSXAmlCJP1F3LeSnbusMhsj1DEkHE lBHWDZDFZvN0LPseX2LmDSdvdpZCMiOM08mNzs+Hb+VVXygumdVSi7Hv1l/nNTmliTmj7KhnwapN 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Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID7hz-0003vt-2j for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:52:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID7hx-0007FB-OZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:52:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID7dT-0005rs-FX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:48:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [72.14.214.232] (helo=hu-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID7dI-0005rS-Io for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:48:14 +0000 Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 28so253762hug for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: 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( [130.129.80.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i7sm25485676nfh.2007.07.23.16.48.04 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:48:02 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On 2007-07-23 21:36, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > on CPE equipments and stateful filters. > > first of all, here's my take on NAT and access controls at the border. > (i've posted this URL to ietf@ietf couple of days ago) > http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/demystify/ > > NAT or stateful filters w/ ALG are not future proven (cannot accomodate > new protocols and people needs to upgrade forever). > because of this reason NAT-PT document is deprecated in v6ops. > now we are seeing the opposite action. weird. > > i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". > but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default > settings. I agree. But the market reality (and we heard it explicitly from a well known CPE vendor at the microphone) is that they will not sell $50 consumer gateways that allow incoming unsolicited SYN or UDP by default. We need to make realistic recommendations in that context. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 20:29:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID8Gr-0002hL-Qm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:29:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID8Gq-0007p9-K4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:29:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID8Ex-0008yb-0e for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:27:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BASE64_NO_NAME autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.215] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID8Em-0008y7-9Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:26:57 +0000 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:51 -0700 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.69.169) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:51 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.25]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:51 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:26:17 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D064053D14E2@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CPE equipments and stateful filters Thread-Index: AcfNhTF5MPFN0Dl7TxarJfre+EFNpwAA1s0A References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> From: Christian Huitema To: Brian E Carpenter , Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 00:26:51.0108 (UTC) FILETIME=[54409240:01C7CD89] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 PiA+IAlpIGRvIG5vdCBkaXNhZ3JlZSB3aXRoICJ3ZSBuZWVkIHN0YXRlZnVsIGZpbHRlciBpbXBs ZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMiLg0KPiA+IAlidXQgaSBzdWdnZXN0IHRoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBSRUFM IGNhcmVmdWwgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQNCj4gPiAJc2V0dGluZ3MuDQo+IA0KPiBJIGFncmVl LiBCdXQgdGhlIG1hcmtldCByZWFsaXR5IChhbmQgd2UgaGVhcmQgaXQgZXhwbGljaXRseSBmcm9t IGENCj4gd2VsbCBrbm93biBDUEUgdmVuZG9yIGF0IHRoZSBtaWNyb3Bob25lKSBpcyB0aGF0IHRo ZXkgd2lsbCBub3Qgc2VsbA0KPiAkNTAgY29uc3VtZXIgZ2F0ZXdheXMgdGhhdCBhbGxvdyBpbmNv bWluZyB1bnNvbGljaXRlZCBTWU4gb3IgVURQDQo+IGJ5IGRlZmF1bHQuIFdlIG5lZWQgdG8gbWFr ZSByZWFsaXN0aWMgcmVjb21tZW5kYXRpb25zIGluIHRoYXQgY29udGV4dC4NCg0KV2VsbCwgbG9v ayB0aGVuIGF0IHdoYXQgd2lsbCBoYXBwZW4uIEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIHByb3ZpZGVycyB3aWxsIGRl cGxveSBpbmZyYXN0cnVjdHVyZSB0aGF0IG1peGVzIFRlcmVkbywgU1RVTiwgSUNFIGFuZCB3aGF0 IGhhdmUgeW91IHRvIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IHN0YXRpb25zIGJleW9uZCB0aGUgQ1BFIGNhbiBpbmRl ZWQgcmVjZWl2ZSB1bnNvbGljaXRlZCBTWU4gYW5kIFVEUCBwYWNrZXRzLiBTbywgaW5zdGVhZCBv ZiBkb2luZyB0aGUgc2ltcGxlIHRoaW5nLCBpLmUuIHR1cm4gb2ZmIHRoZSBkYW1uIGZpbHRlcnMg YnkgZGVmYXVsdCwgd2Ugd2lsbCBnZXQgYW4gYXJtcyByYWNlIHRoYXQgcmVzdWx0cyBpbiBleGFj dGx5IHRoZSBzYW1lIHNlY3VyaXR5IHBvc3R1cmUsIGJ1dCBzaW1wbHkgY29zdHMgYSBsb3QgbW9y ZS4gUHJlZGljdGluZyB0aGUgYXJtcyByYWNlIGlzIG1heWJlIG1vcmUgcmVhbGlzdGljIHRoYW4g dHJ5aW5nIHRvIGF2b2lkIGl0LCBidXQgaXQgY2VydGFpbmx5IGlzIG5vdCBiZXR0ZXIgZW5naW5l ZXJpbmcuDQoNCi0tIENocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 20:37:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID8PH-0008EE-R9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:37:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ID8PH-00080A-6T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:37:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID8OO-0009cX-9r for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:36:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ID8OC-0009b3-V0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:36:42 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377FCC89C70 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 22EC229C009 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:36:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a673fbb000000b34-d2-46a549937892 Received: from [17.151.92.19] (unknown [17.151.92.19]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id DD46F30400B for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 17:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <66F418E5-92D8-4362-8FBB-E3DD637ECF99@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: V6OPS WG From: james woodyatt Subject: CPE Simple Security considered beneficial by RFC 4864 Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:36:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db everyone-- During my presentation of in the V6OPS group meeting here in Chicago today, some of the participants expressed the view that RFC 4864 doesn't "mandate" the use of stateful packet filters for IPv6 residential gateways. I wasn't able to improvise a response to that concern on my feet, so this message will have to serve as my rebuttal. p1. In section 4.2 "IPv6 and Simple Security" (bottom of page 15), RFC 4864 makes the following recommendation: > To implement simple security for IPv6 in, for example, a DSL or > cable modem-connected home network, the broadband gateway/router > should be equipped with stateful firewall capabilities. These > should provide a default configuration where incoming traffic is > limited to return traffic resulting from outgoing packets > (sometimes known as reflective session state). Of particular note, this paragraph explicitly recommends that stateful filtering should be applied by *default*. This was the subject of much kvetching on my part back in April (or was it May) on this list, due to a very embarrassing and related mistake on my part (which ultimately resulted in a U.S. Department of Homeland Security Advisory). In the aftermath of that, I learned-- no, this was *NOT* an editorial oversight by the authors of RFC 4864, but rather a very deliberate recommendation that arose from the consensus of the Internet engineering community. p2. In section 6.1 "Simple Security" (bottom of page 26), RFC 4864 makes the following assertion: > The basic security provided by a stateful firewall will require > some degree of default configuration and automation to mask the > technical complexity from a consumer who merely wants a secure > environment with working applications. There is no reason a > stateful IPv6 firewall product cannot be shipped with default > protection that is equal to or better than that offered by today's > IPv4/NAT products. The implication here is clear. The IETF consensus is that "secure by default" is the recommendation for vendors of CPE with IPv6 Simple Security capabilities, where that means: a stateful packet filter, which delivers all the simple security goodness of IPv4/NAT, and which should be turned *ON* in the unconfigured mode of operation. p3. In section 1 "Introduction" (middle of page 2), RFC 4864 *does* say: > It should be noted that this document is 'informational', as it > discusses approaches that will work to accomplish the goals of the > network manager. It is specifically not a Best Current Practice > (BCP) that is recommending any one approach or a manual on how to > configure a network. When I came forward (prior to the AUTH48 event) with my confusion about the previously noted recommendations in what is now RFC 4864, I suggested that perhaps the second of the two sentences above should be dropped, since-- in fact-- the document does recommend a particular approach to configuring a network. And not just *a* network, but the vast majority of all residential network installations where users do not customize the security configuration of their gateway appliances. The response from the authors of RFC 4864 was to decline the opportunity to correct the document during its AUTH48 review. I can't blame them for this, but I think it's possible that some participants in today's V6OPS meeting session may have been mislead by this incorrect caveat in the introduction section (as I predicted might happen). ----- It's my sense of the mood of the participants in the room today that there may not really be a consensus around the recommendation to use stateful packet filtering by default at residential gateways. It was certainly the subject of more debate than one would expect for an issue for which we are currently proceeding as if it was settled long, long ago. That said, I'd like to note that we don't have any Internet drafts to reference when arguing for the position that these stateful packet filters are to be considered harmful. Perhaps, if we had such a draft, we could bring it to the attention of the IAB, for example, and maybe the concerns about "Internet Fog" might then move beyond mumbling in hallways and whinging at the microphones and into the realm of formal proceedings to repudiate the positions already staked out in published RFC's. In the absence of substantive objections, I think we should continue to proceed according to the documentation we have. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 23 23:27:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDB3p-0002io-Le for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:27:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDB3o-0002wH-As for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:27:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDAxy-000LQH-7N for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:21:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [130.217.250.15] (helo=warlock.cs.waikato.ac.nz) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDAxn-000LPS-2l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 03:21:36 +0000 Received: from [130.217.250.13] (helo=[130.217.250.13] ident=perry) by warlock.cs.waikato.ac.nz with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.50) id 1IDAxV-0006hS-ST for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:21:22 +1200 Message-ID: <46A57029.4050207@coders.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:21:13 +1200 From: Perry Lorier User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070111 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Jeroen Massar wrote: > Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> on CPE equipments and stateful filters. > [..] > >> i do not disagree with "we need stateful filter implementations". >> but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default >> settings. otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home >> network, and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. >> (i dislike UPnP, yeah) > > I am actually starting to believe that we really need a secure protocol > ala uPnP for requesting 'privileges' for sending packets over a network > border, current NAT boxes/gateways. So who do we ask for these privileges? The OS? Well that already has veto privileges, and as past history shows it's easily circumvented. The end users CPE? A dinky little device with no real UI other than perhaps a web server and no way to beg for extra help. (What's it going to do? blink a light at me to say it doesn't like something? Besides it's locked in a cupboard, do I have to walk to the other end of the house to see if it's unhappy?) The end users CPE could ask the ISP, is the ISP really going to want to take the responsibility of authorising every single transaction on the Internet? Are they going to be in a position to understand what the users trying to achieve? The remote users firewall? Goodness knows what this is supposed to do, and already has power of veto with firewalling. I still don't see the point in any of this stuff. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 06:57:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDI4q-0006dJ-QO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:57:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDI4p-0003Vb-Fa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 06:57:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDHzf-0004wp-Kv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:51:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDHzU-0004uW-FD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:51:50 +0000 Received: from [192.168.99.6] (h-66-167-98-26.chcgilgm.covad.net [66.167.98.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OAnGx6058676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <8C7982C1-327C-48BE-8548-895D3B48BDA1@sackheads.org> References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> <8C7982C1-327C-48BE-8548-895D3B48BDA1@sackheads.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Roger Jorgensen , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Carlos Garcia Braschi , IPv6 Ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:33:41 -0500 To: John Payne X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On 21-jul-2007, at 10:27, John Payne wrote: > Geo addressing sounds interesting on the surface, but every > proposal seems to require a new economic model. I find it difficult > to believe that will happen anytime soon. As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. If you hand over the packets with destinations in a certain region to an entity that handles that region, such as an internet exchange, then you're indeed using a different economical model than we use today. But you can also do all the geo stuff in your own network. For instance, if you have a world wide network, you could split the world into 10 pieces and handle routing for each of those regions only within the region. The other regions then use an aggregate to get the packets to the right region. You would of course have to peer with other networks within these regions or break aggregation. But then, if you have a world wide network you're almost certainly peering in more than 10 places as it is anyway. > The other problem with using IXs that immediately comes to mind is > that you are essentially multihoming to a single piece of > infrastructure. Not really resilient in my mind :) Exchanges are often layer 2 networks, which aren't very resilient. But money and engineering talent can fix these problems. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:03:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDKzM-0004Jx-Nw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:03:48 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDKzL-0007ry-BB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:03:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDKuI-000LlC-It for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:58:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [129.242.5.252] (helo=mux2.uit.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDKu6-000Ljx-VF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:58:29 +0000 Received: from shimmer.student.uit.no (shimmer.student.uit.no [129.242.80.34]) by mux2.uit.no (8.13.8/8.13.6/Mux) with ESMTP id l6ODwEEm016249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:58:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chandra.student.uit.no (chandra.student.uit.no [129.242.80.32]) by shimmer.student.uit.no (8.13.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l6ODwCXF013724; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:58:13 +0200 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:58:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Roger Jorgensen X-X-Sender: rogerj@chandra.student.uit.no To: John Payne cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Carlos Garcia Braschi , IPv6 Ops list Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming In-Reply-To: <2D928131-577E-4CC1-A2E5-BEC761573305@sackheads.org> Message-ID: References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> <8C7982C1-327C-48BE-8548-895D3B48BDA1@sackheads.org> <2D928131-577E-4CC1-A2E5-BEC761573305@sackheads.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: : ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 129.242.5.252 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, John Payne wrote: > On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:33 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum > wrote: > >> On 21-jul-2007, at 10:27, John Payne wrote: >> >>> Geo addressing sounds interesting on the surface, but every proposal seems >>> to require a new economic model. I find it difficult to believe that will >>> happen anytime soon. >> >> As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. If you hand over the >> packets with destinations in a certain region to an entity that handles >> that region, such as an internet exchange, then you're indeed using a >> different economical model than we use today. >> >> But you can also do all the geo stuff in your own network. For instance, if >> you have a world wide network, you could split the world into 10 pieces and >> handle routing for each of those regions only within the region. The other >> regions then use an aggregate to get the packets to the right region. You >> would of course have to peer with other networks within these regions or >> break aggregation. But then, if you have a world wide network you're almost >> certainly peering in more than 10 places as it is anyway. > > Yes... But I'm probably also very selective who I peer with at those 10 > locations. Under the geo model, I have to pretty much peer with everyone, > everywhere. think you missed that part that the netblock in use in that region can optional be aggretated to one prefix which you get from a "transit" provider for that region somehow... there are no must, just use your imagination and stop getting stuck in the regular way of thinking of internet. -- ------------------------------ Roger Jorgensen | - ROJO9-RIPE - RJ85P-NORID roger@jorgensen.no | - IPv6 is The Key! ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:12:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDL7X-0008ER-E3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:12:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDL7W-00085E-7Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:12:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDL6M-000MpM-Hx for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:11:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDL6B-000MoY-Cj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:10:57 +0000 Received: from [130.129.23.117] (dhcp-1775.ietf69.org [130.129.23.117]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OE8XsR061698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:08:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070722183710.GA55165@muffin.acquirer.com> References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> <20070722183710.GA55165@muffin.acquirer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <37E8E4F2-4ED6-4963-92A8-BBE042C2AA1F@muada.com> Cc: Carlos Garcia Braschi , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, IPv6 Ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:10:27 -0500 To: Nick Hilliard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On 22-jul-2007, at 13:37, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Can we agree to consign the idea of geographic addressing to the > scrap heap > where it belongs, please? It's not going to work, ever - and we > need to > stop pretending that it has any future. Obviously geographic addressing will work just fine: if all else fails, just ignore the geographic component and use the addresses the same way as any other type. The question is whether the geographic component is going to buy us anything. The classic argument is that topology isn't aligned with geography so it doesn't. However, there are only so many sea cables and the world is a big place. Being able to ignore more specific routes from the other side of the globe seems like something that could come in handy to me. > It will work the day that the > Internet (big "I") is operated as a strict tree structure, which is > to say, > never. Sure, a tree with a single root would be great. But 7000 trees for 7000 regions with 1 million inhabitants would still be a huge win. Within the region you can do flat routing. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:13:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDL8c-0001sj-K9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:13:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDL8b-00086N-V2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:13:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDL89-000Mz0-Tj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:12:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDL7q-000Mw1-On for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:12:40 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 07:12:34 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CANqkpUarR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,574,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="506413804:sNHT280211084" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6OECXB0022382 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:12:33 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6OECXSb011794 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:12:33 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:12:33 -0700 Received: from [172.28.171.253] ([10.21.94.167]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:12:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <142ABCD9-BDE9-4E49-96BA-21FC701F795C@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: An Internet IPv6 Transition Plan Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:12:28 -0500 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 14:12:33.0203 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADA45830:01C7CDFC] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1207; t=1185286353; x=1186150353; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20An=20Internet=20IPv6=20Transition=20Plan |Sender:=20; bh=WLhdJHGyiRu3c3hH8k5YsUfiFgq/QOEnlvb62rZ9U+I=; b=gY87vsVp0gUE74rL41x7WLUsm0sa4y/U26Os5IMl2YSyXZHYf591NJ77s1ChwfmFcPoa30rs Kg3NM31s4/+sZs97IWe782TNguDI5JCUxKiYMF3R8cIgry/82rZQS04s; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Begin forwarded message: > From: John Curran > Date: July 23, 2007 10:56:04 PM CDT > To: nanog > Subject: An Internet IPv6 Transition Plan > > > Folks - > > There's quite a few IPv6 transition technologies, each with its > own camp of supporters based on particular world view of the > hardest & easiest system elements to change. One of the > challenges this poses is that it's very easy to get caught up > in the various transition approaches and miss the high-level > view of what needs to be accomplished. > > In an effort to communicate one possible transition plan in a > technology agnostic manner, I've written an Internet draft > which highlights the expectations that organizations could > face over the next few years: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jcurran- > v6transitionplan-00.txt > > I'd be interested in hearing any and all feedback from the > NANOG community on this draft; feel free to send such > privately if you'd prefer a degree of anonymity, or have > the urge to use language inappropriate in public... ;-) > > Thanks! > /John From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:17:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLCv-0004GF-VM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:17:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLCu-0008CN-OE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:17:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLC6-000NNq-35 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:16:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [72.14.214.239] (helo=hu-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLBu-000NMu-Px for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:16:52 +0000 Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 28so364368hug for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eUekXhJlCpEfS2Q2TG37okQk+NE2dh2cyMF3DKW3Z7kihxdN6cXrAWNtJ6pUGG3AzzJzEe7K3bgTXoI9/3SJ3HICXQSTB9LgVsjlc0F+HNoi2yp0HFvjA6SktAWqSMiKUetA4Qk4GhG6OW2i5PY0wXN5gq6NFym9SNQPLCRnihY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tWXD/t1hBBi7099kCUyWKDEH4xDGy0scwwHNm0gal9yq+W6wSXDmoeCVOTvIvup4L1x1KuPpRlb/JaaSwXBm11HnpVqFY5LmFI4FpNToALXxvt1cCmLSjNOnvNvy1/7BUqr4ZYTYUf0jyaotjpzW8NCL+Z0G853YiQCxEwt2gtE= Received: by 10.67.15.17 with SMTP id s17mr632823ugi.1185286605045; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.80.134? ( [130.129.80.134]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i8sm8554856nfh.2007.07.24.07.16.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:16:37 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ruri Hiromi CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> In-Reply-To: <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Thanks. So does v6ops have an opinion about draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt? It seems nothing will happen unless it's discussed here or in ipv6. Brian On 2007-07-23 21:18, Ruri Hiromi wrote: > Hi, > > The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his > solution document, > "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and > "draft-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt". > We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol and > the other for problem statement. > > At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs > suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then we > are here. > > > On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> What happened to >> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection-opt-01.txt >> >> and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of >> address selection policy? >> >> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >> such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes >> (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to >> need multiple ISPs). >> >> Brian >> > > ------------------------------- > Ruri Hiromi > hiromi@inetcore.com > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:53:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLlR-0003dk-78 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:53:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLlP-0000Z7-Vb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:53:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLj8-00010d-K1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:51:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLix-0000zK-NG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:51:01 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB339CEDD27 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id BFC7F29C002 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a5f3ebb000000b34-b1-46a611cecbd5 Received: from [17.151.91.57] (unknown [17.151.91.57]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 1702330400D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <142ABCD9-BDE9-4E49-96BA-21FC701F795C@cisco.com> References: <142ABCD9-BDE9-4E49-96BA-21FC701F795C@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7DA7EADE-220D-4060-91AA-17086D62E955@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: An Internet IPv6 Transition Plan Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:50:51 -0500 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On Jul 24, 2007, at 09:12, Fred Baker forwarded: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jcurran- > v6transitionplan-00.txt > >> 2.2 Transition Phase - January 2009 to December 2010 >> [...] >> During the Post-Transition Phase, the following principles apply: >> [...] >> 2.3.4 Service Providers area MAY continue to offer IPv4-based >> Internet >> connectivity to their customers. Organizations MAY >> continue to >> use IPv4-based Internet connectivity. Organizations MAY >> remove >> IPv4-based Internet connectivity from Internet-facing servers. The final sentence here is the point where the principles seem to move from describing the transition toward IPv6-based service to describing the process of deprecating IPv4. While I'm all in favor of deprecating IPv4 over time, I think it deserves to be the topic of a separate draft. I would recommend dropping that last sentence, or perhaps changing it to this: "Organizations MAY treat Internet-facing IPv4 servers as not production." -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 10:57:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLox-000753-Bo for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:57:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDLow-0000cj-Ri for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:57:07 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLo1-0001SF-6g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:56:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDLnp-0001Qx-SM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:56:03 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C484D51CD3; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:55:49 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-127-823312527; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <08C28E40-6299-441E-A7B5-41740803BB4B@inetcore.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:55:39 +0900 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f49c97ce49302a02285a2d36a99eef8c --Apple-Mail-127-823312527 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Thanks for the attention. Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", I would like to discuss on what is the best way to this WG with solution draft. Because "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" describes specific protocol to send policy from dhcp server. If all of you think we can skip the discussion about solution (analysis for the solution) and welcome to move to get into protocol work, it is also happy with me. How do you think? Or in parallel with solution draft, if we can discuss on the distribution of site-wide RFC3484 policy it it better. Here we already have "problem statement" and "requirement", the problems wants to be solved, doesn't it? On 2007/07/24, at 23:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Thanks. So does v6ops have an opinion about > draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt? It seems > nothing will happen unless it's discussed here or > in ipv6. > > Brian > > On 2007-07-23 21:18, Ruri Hiromi wrote: >> Hi, >> The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his >> solution document, >> "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and "draft-v6ops-addr- >> select-ps-01.txt". >> We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution >> protocol and the other for problem statement. >> At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg >> chairs suggested us that we need support from other wg such as >> v6ops. Then we are here. >> On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> What happened to >>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address- >>> selection-opt-01.txt >>> and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of >>> address selection policy? >>> >>> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >>> such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes >>> (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to >>> need multiple ISPs). >>> >>> Brian >>> >> ------------------------------- >> Ruri Hiromi >> hiromi@inetcore.com > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com --Apple-Mail-127-823312527 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKbjCCBF8w ggJHoAMCAQICAhevMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMEUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkpQMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxXSURF IFByb2plY3QxHzAdBgNVBAMTFm1lbWJlcnMgb3JpZW50ZWQgQ0EgMDIwHhcNMDcwNjEzMTE1NzA2 WhcNMDgwNjMwMjM1OTU5WjBjMQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MRkw FwYDVQQDExAwOTgzIFJ1cmkgSGlyb21pMSIwIAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhNoaXJvbWlAaW5ldGNvcmUu Y29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDAa8r8JWyB6A5GaHo32NfSPem48dauQ41y 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Jul 24 11:13:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDM4d-0004CW-5Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:13:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDM4c-00015S-R6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:13:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDM1z-0002sW-Rp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:10:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDM1o-0002r8-9x for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:10:30 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8144B233C5; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:10:21 +0900 (JST) To: Ruri Hiromi cc: IPv6 Operations In-reply-to: hiromi's message of Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:55:39 +0900. <08C28E40-6299-441E-A7B5-41740803BB4B@inetcore.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:10:21 +0900 Message-Id: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b >Thanks for the attention. > >Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", I would >like to discuss on what is the best way to this WG with solution >draft. Because "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" describes >specific protocol to send policy from dhcp server. > >If all of you think we can skip the discussion about solution >(analysis for the solution) and welcome to move to get into protocol >work, it is also happy with me. How do you think? > >Or in parallel with solution draft, if we can discuss on the >distribution of site-wide RFC3484 policy it it better. > >Here we already have "problem statement" and "requirement", the >problems wants to be solved, doesn't it? it is a bit of "over the top" comment, but my take on this problem is (as mentioned at the wg meeting) like below: - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair can go out of the organization somehow. (a) if there's some issue like uRPF in some of your ISPs, the egress routers in your organization should implement source-based routing to workaround it. (b) the whole idea of ULA/ULA-x should be killed at once. we killed site-locals because to this. do not re-invite rosemary's baby. - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different reachability or "scoping". - so, there's no need for you to think about "distributing source address selection policy". tnx. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 11:36:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMR6-00012w-AP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMR5-00029T-JI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMPn-00059g-T1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:35:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMPc-00057L-Cc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:35:06 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 11:34:59 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAIu4pUZAZnmf/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,574,1175486400"; d="scan'208"; a="126885981:sNHT180782360" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6OFYxlg014112; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:34:59 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6OFYxWS005976; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:34:59 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:34:53 -0400 Received: from [172.28.171.253] ([10.82.208.217]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:34:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:34:46 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 15:34:53.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[2E37AF50:01C7CE08] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4765; t=1185291299; x=1186155299; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jun-ichiro=20itojun=20Hagino=20; bh=CBHicwqYz9+gybG7R6G/YjNZPPjO79/jaetDiic46aQ=; b=E1Fw5pU1EBceR8O0RHpXjLRZwZ+ZfQYvl6jZLbB3H8vggOHvKL9Vh3cMI8srjVavA7M+/Zoc RAz9ZPDXbzX3vtCPF8DAMBROtIjIj9ieouRy1FvmLKs+NP4dO56AbNqm; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 On Jul 23, 2007, at 2:36 PM, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > Fred raised concerns about DoS attack, but if you run secure OS you > do not have to worry about that. Part of this relates to the concept of a "secure OS". I think the security experts in the room will tell you that the only truly secure devices is one in which no electrons are moving. One cannot actually say that "there is no way to successfully attack X"; one can only say that any such exploits are currently unknown for a system at the appropriate patch level and with the right configuration. That said, my observation was not limited to DOS attacks, although those are part of the discussion. My comment had to do with the integrity of networks people provide for themselves, and the view of the network as something to secure in its own right. In my view, people in residences and in companies provide for themselves the things they think they need. Not everyone provides the same things, and not everyone views the things they provide the same way. For example, my wife's mother would happily give up her kitchen and eat out; my wife provides a kitchen in our home because she wants to be able to cook for herself. In my home, I provide two wired networks and two wireless ones. One pair is for me (Cisco information security guidelines require my home office to be separate from my home), and the other pair is for my family. They meet at an Ethernet hub and a cable modem, the latter being my ISP's service demarc. My company makes similar provisions for itself, including 8 DMZs worldwide, an extensive internal network that would rival many ISPs, and interconnections with a large number of providers. Those networks are my and my company's property, just as much as the grass in my lawn covers my physical property. Yes, the integrity of any device, physical or virtual, is in the final analysis its own concern, and computers need to be hardened to provide good computational security. A large percentage of attacks, I am told, come from within one's own organization. That said, it is also appropriate for a family or company to expect its neighbors to observe their property boundaries, and it is very reasonable for them to provide a first line of defense at those boundaries. As I said in the meeting, this should not preclude services that they have agreed should be offered in their homes or on their premises, and should not preclude business-to-business communications under appropriate governance. I will agree with Alain that a customer of an ISP should be able to easily let the ISP provide the services they have contracted, and this should be accomplished with a minimum of fuss and bother. But my home is not an extension of my ISP any more than my company is an extension of its ISPs. It is a network and there is a defined NNI between them. For services that the ISP has not contracted with me, I see no reason to allow the ISP into my home. That's not an unfriendly statement, by the way. My neighbors come into my home after knocking on the door too. They are both welcome in my home and expected to knock. I compare this to the defenses of the human body. One could argue that if every cell were robust enough, disease would be unknown, and in the presence of assistants like white blood cells, T-cells, and so on, they body has no need of a prophylactic defense. All true, and the fact is that those systems work pretty well. Even so, the body is provided with a skin - a firewall - that keeps a good percentage of the obvious out of it and in so doing exposes and uses those defenses less. I suspect that it does so both because defense in depth is a proven strategy and because keeping the junk out is less costly than curing the ills it creates. I think the right solution is an authenticated access protocol. If UPnP is publicly documented, fine, if James' protocol is the best bet, fine, and if it is something else, so be it. But a protocol that allows one to identify oneself and gain admittance on authorization provides for the concerns that you have. Someone from within can access out, the governing contract being the authorization to do so, and on AAA confirmation access in is granted, which enables someone with legitimate access privileges to access what they are authorized to access. Someone once said that "good fences make good neighbors". I think they were wise. If in your home you want to provide open access - no doors and no locks - no problem. That's your policy. It's just not mine, and not that of very many of my customers. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 11:36:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMRD-0001CO-75 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMRC-00029e-TO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMQv-0005HI-Al for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:36:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMQk-0005GB-Ln for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:36:15 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 11:36:10 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CALe5pUZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,574,1175486400"; d="scan'208"; a="126886087:sNHT26739660" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6OFa9U2029060; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:09 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6OFZkWk006247; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:36:09 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:01 -0400 Received: from [172.28.171.253] ([10.82.208.217]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:36:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: V6OPS WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:35:52 -0500 To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 15:36:00.0541 (UTC) FILETIME=[563F7CD0:01C7CE08] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=316; t=1185291370; x=1186155370; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters |Sender:=20 |To:=20james=20woodyatt=20; bh=Qcw+hesM+AFrNQSaA0ZpWnMdy7s+SC1GdORwq3rcoJ8=; b=ANII1guyyHfiSVpI/BTXhITH/xHb/zJOR/7WS3AMQTQgZPbfaBMIv4oNnUY2pP1VziXWsc/K ec12lt05pmm1JxcY+8Do02p78d7r4gEpTOsanR8V3QbEipjAcUmrXUC7; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de On Jul 23, 2007, at 3:22 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > Alas, my cellphone provider isn't particularly interested in > letting my phone make and receive SIP calls over my home 802.11 > wireless network routed to the Internet. I fear you're pointing > out a *feature*, not a bug. move to T-Mobile :-) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 11:43:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMXq-0003ip-9S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:43:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMXp-0002Ko-OP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:43:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMX7-0005wk-VJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:42:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.173] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMWw-0005va-PU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:42:40 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so179805uge for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=F63OsTzJr7JiwJ9wSwUbFVrwXCTabbr9VnJu0a1f8333I93W9Sq9yGoNq/rSLQuCfyt2NasKHWtgc72Qyy9ZGyLcp5pGVWZ/xnoYRv51IntifaEnh+lIrV6NtPaHBQgoPKncBY4xmYNQkmmCvEJUrt6tOfBDMiuteerpMCEOe5s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZZ9GT0QkwdwbMMupncOgAhEjesyVlUaODFD/m3nDEc/At0Bq/6R52xjrkPC8FbRYVy+Pmtt0KLbB4fn/4FtNVFbz6xdwcLXAwl5RqqpSDt4wJaUMBTFxFRNEf5+P0d2YQ4w6oqfhQDD1gE5RjnBnzuSIrUu5S5sAGp+RaejHmIM= Received: by 10.66.237.9 with SMTP id k9mr704895ugh.1185291753346; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.84.85? ( [130.129.84.85]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d26sm6804472nfh.2007.07.24.08.42.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A61DE6.90009@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:42:30 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ruri Hiromi CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> <08C28E40-6299-441E-A7B5-41740803BB4B@inetcore.com> In-Reply-To: <08C28E40-6299-441E-A7B5-41740803BB4B@inetcore.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 My belief is that we need a method to distribute 3484 policy in any case, even if we adopt another approach to the general problem. Brian On 2007-07-24 16:55, Ruri Hiromi wrote: > Thanks for the attention. > > Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", I would like > to discuss on what is the best way to this WG with solution draft. > Because "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" describes specific > protocol to send policy from dhcp server. > > If all of you think we can skip the discussion about solution(analysis > for the solution) and welcome to move to get into protocol work, it is > also happy with me. How do you think? > > Or in parallel with solution draft, if we can discuss on the > distribution of site-wide RFC3484 policy it it better. > > Here we already have "problem statement" and "requirement", the problems > wants to be solved, doesn't it? > > > On 2007/07/24, at 23:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Thanks. So does v6ops have an opinion about >> draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt? It seems >> nothing will happen unless it's discussed here or >> in ipv6. >> >> Brian >> >> On 2007-07-23 21:18, Ruri Hiromi wrote: >>> Hi, >>> The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his >>> solution document, >>> "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and >>> "draft-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt". >>> We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol >>> and the other for problem statement. >>> At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs >>> suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then >>> we are here. >>> On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> What happened to >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection-opt-01.txt >>>> >>>> and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of >>>> address selection policy? >>>> >>>> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >>>> such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes >>>> (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to >>>> need multiple ISPs). >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> Ruri Hiromi >>> hiromi@inetcore.com >> > > ------------------------------- > Ruri Hiromi > hiromi@inetcore.com > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 11:47:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMbW-0005VD-WD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:47:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMbW-0002Ps-Hb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:47:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMaq-0006RI-ES for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:46:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMaf-0006Pm-Ie for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:46:31 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854B1233C5; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:46:24 +0900 (JST) To: Fred Baker cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: fred's message of Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:34:46 EST. <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:46:24 +0900 Message-Id: <20070724154624.854B1233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab >> Fred raised concerns about DoS attack, but if you run secure OS you >> do not have to worry about that. > >Part of this relates to the concept of a "secure OS". I think the >security experts in the room will tell you that the only truly secure >devices is one in which no electrons are moving. One cannot actually >say that "there is no way to successfully attack X"; one can only say >that any such exploits are currently unknown for a system at the >appropriate patch level and with the right configuration. That said, >my observation was not limited to DOS attacks, although those are >part of the discussion. My comment had to do with the integrity of >networks people provide for themselves, and the view of the network >as something to secure in its own right. "only 2 remote holes in more than 10 years" is pretty much equal to "there is almost no way to attack it". in fact, the particular operating system i'm involved with, OpenBSD, is excluded from "attack this box" contests at the security-related conferenes because it is practically unattackable. enough for the ego boost :-) >In my view, people in residences and in companies provide for >themselves the things they think they need. Not everyone provides the >same things, and not everyone views the things they provide the same >way. For example, my wife's mother would happily give up her kitchen >and eat out; my wife provides a kitchen in our home because she wants >to be able to cook for herself. i understand the tradeoff. in Japan more and more kitchens avoid LPGs and use electric heaters due to economic issues (skyscraper apartments) and safety concerns. but you can never cook a good Chinese dishes with electric heaters. >In my home, I provide two wired networks and two wireless ones. One >pair is for me (Cisco information security guidelines require my home >office to be separate from my home), and the other pair is for my >family. (snip) what i've been repeatedly trying to deliver is that, (it is more of IAB stuff) access controls at organization borders and/or based on address has to stop now. if you wish to be sure you are communicating with murai-san you have to check his identity using crypto signature. to prevent DDoS attacks, your ISP has to react quickly, as protecting for DDoS in your home has no protection against your DSL/fiber links from being filled up. as far as i understand, UPnP has no authentication whatsoever (if there is, you would face a bootstrap problem for secret sharing). so, once your UPnP-client box gets hijacked, bad guys can open up any TCP/UDP ports in your network. i'd rather have no UPnP on my router. UPnP adds more complexity onto the complexity of NAT/firewall, so what would you expect? :-) itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:03:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMqk-0005tU-Ki for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:03:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMqk-0002l7-Cj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:03:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMpj-000840-QQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:01:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [209.85.134.188] (helo=mu-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMpZ-00082f-0M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:01:54 +0000 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w8so2537317mue for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hmPiAHEw9DQwOkEH3kXJo/lc2HEhry9pqYPZZK9kJprdAvCTV0cla80aMwikT0Hbo8TVjXQTGk/vv6LU9SANsqKRu8Hs39BYfsZHmffgo+9a05YkD9uGCNOAzMS13SJHomfQIhOV3NHZ+0PxzDeCTg7UDUKDrZ7oyadV5buNrIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dd+r3MkpKHJbLD7IciY5sINN52aQg9LcuhJ8brpTAvsAwO2jDAymyYUE0rpyL7uY3a3FkmRBAAWgCUNZmDeE0I+KAHKU5SzKC3v4VWyRzrosR0jAUOcXqkcqsnEng2Oj9gUKiuq5Ts0qgPisYlP1bUWhvX6Ld9+TcSAWeYNE7qA= Received: by 10.82.126.5 with SMTP id y5mr3396946buc.1185292907344; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.84.85? ( [130.129.84.85]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 34sm1631684nfu.2007.07.24.09.01.45 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A62268.3010306@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:01:44 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: Ruri Hiromi , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 itojun, > - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address > on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- > address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different > reachability or "scoping". Yes, they are horrible, but they are not possible to avoid in the complex topology created by corporate networks and VPNs. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:03:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMqv-0005wI-Kc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:03:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMqv-0002lE-4C for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:03:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMpM-00080M-N2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:01:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMpB-0007zP-TL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:01:31 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 12:01:25 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAHG+pUZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,574,1175486400"; d="sig'?scan'208"; a="66012416:sNHT37558952" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6OG1OY0010367; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:01:24 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6OG1MWe016281; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:01:24 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:01:22 -0400 Received: from [172.28.171.253] ([10.82.208.217]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:01:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20070724154624.854B1233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724154624.854B1233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-1-827222255" Message-Id: <997A90F7-2AC9-4E31-96DF-E5E2067CC668@cisco.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:00:52 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Gpgmail-State: signed X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 16:01:22.0068 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1261540:01C7CE0B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2149; t=1185292884; x=1186156884; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters=20 |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jun-ichiro=20itojun=20Hagino=20; bh=mgYvH1+ZWSCDX/8w804ySBCTBVAEtCv8CrRKkszYGo0=; b=dR/6XuVqk7L/x1muZ2U519Hwd2JYGgXPmRRInkiK2Uc+igH/ej7heQ5ZyILcOi11Km2Eh827 KDlCk9xuZKApOrDRlTuXoGvav7EKg7ktgie6LdLbdPnQNM5vTS992ZAz; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-1-827222255 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jul 24, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > as far as i understand, UPnP has no authentication whatsoever (if > there is, you would face a bootstrap problem for secret sharing). > so, once your UPnP-client box gets hijacked, bad guys can open up > any TCP/UDP ports in your network. i'd rather have no UPnP on my > router. UPnP adds more complexity onto the complexity of NAT/ > firewall, so what would you expect? :-) To be honest, I don't know much about UPnP. What you say is consistent with what I have heard, and not consistent with what I said a few moments ago. That doesn't make the AAA issue wrong. > what i've been repeatedly trying to deliver is that, (it is more of > IAB stuff) access controls at organization borders and/or based on > address has to stop now. if you wish to be sure you are > communicating with murai-san you have to check his identity using > crypto signature. I understand that point. I am saying that I disagree with it. For one thing, the same key sharing issue applies. Basing identity on address is, as you say, whacked; it has to be based on something much more relevant. But IMHO, that is about identification and authentication. I am saying that authorization, which is something different, is not a given and should not be a given. Authorization is something I grant to a subset of those I encounter, and only to those that I can identify with some appropriate level of strength. --Apple-Mail-1-827222255 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGpiI0bjEdbHIsm0MRArX9AKCCP+F2Daw+Ri+3cDD6r8nPL5tBRwCeKcSE EJsJodDO+TQuvmHYSrVbFrc= =fYxy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-1-827222255-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:04:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMsD-0007EX-Kb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:04:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMsD-0002mm-74 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:04:33 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMrZ-0008GC-5W for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:03:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMrF-0008CR-Lj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:03:41 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5FB79675A; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:03:32 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, arifumi@nttv6.net Subject: Comments on addr-select-sol Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:03:29 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Hello, Been reviewing the draft, and I am a bit puzzled as to why the=20 implementability and compatibility with RFC3493 falls in the "other issues"= =20 category. Most IPv6-enabled applications are currently relying on getaddrinfo then=20 connect/sendto APIs, or variants thereof. getaddrinfo() queries DNS or=20 whatever, and gives an ordered list of possible destination address, then=20 connect() or sendto() decide which source address to use to reach a given=20 destination. It might be worth noting that sendto() is non-blocking, so=20 essentially any exchange with the network has to be done in getaddrinfo(). Now, that still leaves a lot of room for doing lots of fancy and advanced=20 stuff in getaddrinfo(), along the DNS query. But I think it is worth lookin= g=20 deeper at. I do think we should avoid deprecating RFC3493 unless there is=20 really a very very compelling reason to do so. I am a bit suspicious as to whether the "trial-and-error" approach can=20 actually work with these considerations in mind. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:05:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMtU-0001UC-3x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:05:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMtT-0002pG-RR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:05:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMt4-0008aS-8I for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:05:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMsr-0008Wr-FP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:05:18 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A07A233C5; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:05:11 +0900 (JST) To: Brian E Carpenter cc: IPv6 Operations In-reply-to: brian.e.carpenter's message of Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:01:44 +0200. <46A62268.3010306@gmail.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:05:10 +0900 Message-Id: <20070724160511.0A07A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 >> - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address >> on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- >> address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different >> reachability or "scoping". > >Yes, they are horrible, but they are not possible to avoid in the complex >topology created by corporate networks and VPNs. do you plan to have source addresses with different reachabilty with VPN and stuff, even with IPv6 where no private address would be deployed hopefully? of course you can run IPsec tunnels or other VPN technologies by using global IPv6 addresses. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:11:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMz4-00075i-Fi for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:11:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDMz4-0002y6-2b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:11:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMyC-0009Ys-1X for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:10:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDMxz-0009W1-PA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:10:38 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97355233C5; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:10:30 +0900 (JST) To: Fred Baker cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: fred's message of Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:00:52 EST. <997A90F7-2AC9-4E31-96DF-E5E2067CC668@cisco.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:10:30 +0900 Message-Id: <20070724161030.97355233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c >On Jul 24, 2007, at 10:46 AM, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> as far as i understand, UPnP has no authentication whatsoever (if >> there is, you would face a bootstrap problem for secret sharing). >> so, once your UPnP-client box gets hijacked, bad guys can open up >> any TCP/UDP ports in your network. i'd rather have no UPnP on my >> router. UPnP adds more complexity onto the complexity of NAT/ >> firewall, so what would you expect? :-) > >To be honest, I don't know much about UPnP. What you say is >consistent with what I have heard, and not consistent with what I >said a few moments ago. > >That doesn't make the AAA issue wrong. let us hear from jhw, who should have done a lot of homework on UPnP matter. >> what i've been repeatedly trying to deliver is that, (it is more of >> IAB stuff) access controls at organization borders and/or based on >> address has to stop now. if you wish to be sure you are >> communicating with murai-san you have to check his identity using >> crypto signature. > >I understand that point. I am saying that I disagree with it. For one >thing, the same key sharing issue applies. Basing identity on address >is, as you say, whacked; it has to be based on something much more >relevant. But IMHO, that is about identification and authentication. >I am saying that authorization, which is something different, is not >a given and should not be a given. Authorization is something I grant >to a subset of those I encounter, and only to those that I can >identify with some appropriate level of strength. i noticed you have PGP signature to ensure you identity :-) here i'm mixing up authentication, authorization and identification a little bit. but in essense, they are all the same in the way that they are tied with key exchange problems. key distribution is a tough problem. many people are trying hard, such as: - to make authentication optimistic when you try for the first time (ssh) - to make keys available worldwide via DNS (opportunitistic IPsec) - make a hierarchy of "trust" and install root key in applications (https/X509, DNSSEC) - use ssh/scp as a bootstrap and copy X509 keys, then exchange session keys (IKE) some of them are deployable, some may not. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:27:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDN64-0007gY-5d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:18:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDN5z-0003oU-0v for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:18:51 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDN5T-000Aeu-7J for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:18:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.175] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDN5I-000Adc-7c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:18:09 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so186738uge for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QRDJ4/HHDRUeZ7vjOqMK2cl6gqTsogvcf/PjHJGXoWtFTXft+/2GBKCz1WP2AV7a7DP5I9p4Gli2/XlP6QGefPmwMvggRxV7ZrzY+4qp9G+3kPEKTPxIrUbRS0bl2R3xuJenY8dYuR7haCzoVrGUQZOAPqJ1EKk3/7lvSe1rQaw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=a/RAaU7h66mzI9XmhcYVeYLNU24pDa9jJDNLY6FguTsYlu5NEW4bh36VrQdDfoDiaGUIPjMjtjbo2khCX2Qopv487UsbY6hqTGN/96ySlBcKt9LcTlFsYhO2IK64fxpj64CUE4LKRAcm3yKKBGrtyqtdr1QFkLMtcUmeoHqRD/k= Received: by 10.86.95.20 with SMTP id s20mr3355569fgb.1185293882753; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.84.85? ( [130.129.84.85]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i5sm26036836mue.2007.07.24.09.18.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A62638.2040302@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:18:00 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070724160511.0A07A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724160511.0A07A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On 2007-07-24 18:05, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address >>> on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- >>> address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different >>> reachability or "scoping". >> Yes, they are horrible, but they are not possible to avoid in the complex >> topology created by corporate networks and VPNs. > > do you plan to have source addresses with different reachabilty with > VPN and stuff, even with IPv6 where no private address would be > deployed hopefully? I wouldn't design things that way, but I believe that corporate notions of security and business partnerships will cause this to happen. In fact I agree with Phill Hallam-Baker that the *best* way to solve this is by applications-level strong security such as Web Services Security, but I am not optimistic that this will be adopted by everybody. > > of course you can run IPsec tunnels or other VPN technologies by using > global IPv6 addresses. Yes, but you may still have complexity because only some hosts in company A can reach only some hosts in B via the VPN. DNS gets complex and messy too. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:31:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDN5c-0007gO-M1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:18:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDN5U-0003d0-60 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:18:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDN3J-000ANK-PV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:16:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDN39-000ALo-60 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:15:56 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 29B74233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:15:50 +0900 (JST) To: rdenis@simphalempin.com Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on addr-select-sol In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:03:29 +0300" <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724161550.29B74233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:15:50 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 > Now, that still leaves a lot of room for doing lots of fancy and advanced > stuff in getaddrinfo(), along the DNS query. But I think it is worth looking > deeper at. I do think we should avoid deprecating RFC3493 unless there is > really a very very compelling reason to do so. if you are suggesting changes to getaddrinfo(3) API, no. you can't. more than 5 years late. especially if you are suggesting getaddrinfo(3) to return source addresses. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:32:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNJb-0005yf-Kb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:32:51 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNJb-0004Xb-1G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:32:51 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNIN-000CQy-Gc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:31:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNIC-000CQ3-D1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:31:30 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F285E967E0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:31:22 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:31:19 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 On Tuesday 24 July 2007 18:34:46 Fred Baker wrote: > I think the right solution is an authenticated access protocol. If > UPnP is publicly documented, fine, if James' protocol is the best > bet, fine, and if it is something else, so be it. But a protocol that > allows one to identify oneself and gain admittance on authorization > provides for the concerns that you have. Someone from within can > access out, the governing contract being the authorization to do so, > and on AAA confirmation access in is granted, which enables someone > with legitimate access privileges to access what they are authorized > to access. There might be a misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, UPnP, NAT-PMP= =20 and ALD all allow (unauthenticated) requests coming from the inside, and=20 discard any requests coming from the outside. In the physical world, most=20 locks can be undone without key from the inside, and only need a key from t= he=20 inside. To be fair, I was told UPnP does support authentication. Only nobody uses i= t,=20 very much like almost nobody uses authenticated DHCP. I am sure James could= =20 add some kind of authentication mechanism for ALD, but I doubt it would see= =20 much real-life use. Unless people feel it should be usable from the outside= ,=20 much like you can open your house outside door with the appropriate key. In any case, I think people advocating stateful firewalls on CPEs should=20 really get familiar with the work done in BEHAVE wg. I am very sorry that t= he=20 use and abuse of stateful firewalls in IPv4 world has lead to the unusabili= ty=20 of just about any IETF transport protocol but UDP (Christian already hinted= =20 at this). If we are to require stateful firewalls for unmanaged network, we= =20 REALLY REALLY REALLY need to clearly explain how TCP, SCTP, DCCP and any=20 other connection oriented protocol is expected to operate home-to-home. Not= =20 doing that would be equivalent to stating that the only valid model for=20 unmanaged IPv6 is client at home and server in the server farm. By the way, to amend James's slideset, only UDP really works with ICE (or a= ny=20 form of hole punching), while TCP works to a very-lesser extent, and=20 everything else does not: DCCP, SCTP, IPsec... My 2 cents, =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:34:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNLD-0007Pf-QI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:34:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNLD-0004bf-HK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:34:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNKh-000Cht-MT for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:33:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNKW-000Cgb-Ne for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:33:54 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:16:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EC0967E0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:33:47 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: "Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino" Subject: Re: Comments on addr-select-sol Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:33:43 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20070724161550.29B74233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724161550.29B74233CB@coconut.itojun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707241933.43998.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 On Tuesday 24 July 2007 19:15:50 Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > Now, that still leaves a lot of room for doing lots of fancy and advanc= ed > > stuff in getaddrinfo(), along the DNS query. But I think it is worth > > looking deeper at. I do think we should avoid deprecating RFC3493 unless > > there is really a very very compelling reason to do so. > > if you are suggesting changes to getaddrinfo(3) API, no. you can't. > more than 5 years late. especially if you are suggesting getaddrinfo(3) > to return source addresses. Agreed. That was pretty much my point. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:41:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNRi-00024R-O1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:41:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNRi-0004rR-El for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:41:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNQz-000DS6-0q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:40:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNQo-000DPl-CF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:40:23 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 36830233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:40:17 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:18:00 +0200" <46A62638.2040302@gmail.com> References: <46A62638.2040302@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724164017.36830233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:40:17 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 > > do you plan to have source addresses with different reachabilty with > > VPN and stuff, even with IPv6 where no private address would be > > deployed hopefully? > > I wouldn't design things that way, but I believe that corporate notions > of security and business partnerships will cause this to happen. > In fact I agree with Phill Hallam-Baker that the *best* way to solve > this is by applications-level strong security such as Web Services Security, > but I am not optimistic that this will be adopted by everybody. if you agree with Phill, you should make efforts to that direction! > > of course you can run IPsec tunnels or other VPN technologies by using > > global IPv6 addresses. > > Yes, but you may still have complexity because only some hosts in company A > can reach only some hosts in B via the VPN. DNS gets complex and messy too. yeah, there are various ways to solve DNS issues, i don't think there is a perfect solution. but DNS issue does not have to do things with IP-layer reachability. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:44:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNVH-0002jy-Pj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNVH-0004v4-HK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNUa-000DpK-KR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:44:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNUQ-000DoM-1G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:44:07 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3E453233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:44:01 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:31:19 +0300" <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724164401.3E453233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:44:01 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 > There might be a misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, UPnP, NAT-PMP > and ALD all allow (unauthenticated) requests coming from the inside, and > discard any requests coming from the outside. In the physical world, most > locks can be undone without key from the inside, and only need a key from the > inside. i mentioned about the following story: - machines inside of your organization gets infected by viruses, trojan hoses or whatever and bad guys take control of the box. this can be due to poorly-mangaged laptop with VPN reachability towards inside of your organization, infected laptop goes into your organization after a trip to chicago, whatever. - bad guys plays with UPnP and punch holes on your firewall itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 12:49:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNZt-0003yM-7w for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNZr-00052m-Df for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:49:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNZ2-000EPV-JL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:48:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNYr-000EMM-G4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:48:43 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A5DD51CDA; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:48:32 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-136-830078079; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <2677351C-7049-4D1F-BFEA-669722AC567B@inetcore.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:48:25 +0900 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 --Apple-Mail-136-830078079 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I understood your opinion in one sense, but there might have been problematic cases with reality. some part are same as Brian, and we has been tried to write in the Problem statement - Currently we already have coexistence of VPN access and Global Internet Access in a site - demands for controlling prefixes exists in some cases - ULA has been reached consensus among IETF - demands for controlling v4-v6 preference If you have further comments of the cases we listed up in it seems to be found wrong, let me know. On 2007/07/25, at 0:10, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> Thanks for the attention. >> >> Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", I would >> like to discuss on what is the best way to this WG with solution >> draft. Because "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" describes >> specific protocol to send policy from dhcp server. >> >> If all of you think we can skip the discussion about solution >> (analysis for the solution) and welcome to move to get into protocol >> work, it is also happy with me. How do you think? >> >> Or in parallel with solution draft, if we can discuss on the >> distribution of site-wide RFC3484 policy it it better. >> >> Here we already have "problem statement" and "requirement", the >> problems wants to be solved, doesn't it? > > it is a bit of "over the top" comment, but my take on this problem is > (as mentioned at the wg meeting) like below: > > - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. > network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair can go > out of the organization somehow. > (a) if there's some issue like uRPF in some of your ISPs, the > egress > routers in your organization should implement source-based > routing to workaround it. > (b) the whole idea of ULA/ULA-x should be killed at once. > we killed site-locals because to this. do not re-invite > rosemary's baby. > - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address > on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- > address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different > reachability or "scoping". > - so, there's no need for you to think about "distributing source > address selection policy". > > tnx. > > itojun > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com --Apple-Mail-136-830078079 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; 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Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:00:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDNkI-0005Hg-5X for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:00:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNiu-000Fc7-GI for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:59:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDNij-000FbG-RR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:58:55 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id A5355233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:58:48 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:48:25 +0900" <2677351C-7049-4D1F-BFEA-669722AC567B@inetcore.com> References: <2677351C-7049-4D1F-BFEA-669722AC567B@inetcore.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724165848.A5355233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:58:48 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 > I understood your opinion in one sense, but there might have been > problematic cases with reality. > > some part are same as Brian, and we has been tried to write in the > Problem statement > > - Currently we already have coexistence of VPN access and Global > Internet Access in a site as i respnoded to Brian this is a non-issue. > - demands for controlling prefixes exists in some cases this has to be done sorely with routing table using ip6_dst, nothing else. if you use ip6_src for controlling routing, you will go into paradise of "policy routing" that is, basicaly, a pitfall towards hell. > - ULA has been reached consensus among IETF this does not mean that we have to use ULA. moreover, RFC4291 do state that addresses other than ::, ::1, ff00::/8, fe80::/10 are global unicast, so ULA violates it in some sense. with "global unicast" basically i assume "global reachability". sorry that i show up a bit late, but i have been taking medical leave. i should write up a draft or two to deprecate ULA. > - demands for controlling v4-v6 preference maybe, but what would you need more than "IPv6 then IPv4"? itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:22:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO5y-0005a8-8f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO5w-0006QD-UM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO2O-000Hcm-4O for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:19:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO2D-000Hbx-43 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:19:02 +0000 Received: from [130.129.87.204] ([130.129.87.204]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OHFStO066245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:15:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724151937.B5F6A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724151937.B5F6A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: 69attendees@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:17:22 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 [people were complaining about delays in getting an IPv4 address over DHCP, CCing the v6ops list to make a point] On 24-jul-2007, at 10:19, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > good reason to use IPv6 entirely, as long as you have IPv6 DNS > server:-P More specifically, stateless autoconfig seems to work a lot better than DHCP in this case: one router advertisement can provide a large number of clients with address and configuration information, while DHCP requires messages back and forth for each individual client. A good reason to make sure that it's possible to run IPv6 with all that that entails (= DNS resolver addresses) without the need to run DHCPv6 if running DHCPv6 isn't specifically desired. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:22:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO65-0005e7-Cv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO65-0006QR-26 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:22:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO3g-000Hn7-2s for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:20:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO3U-000Hkw-WC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:20:22 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OHICIr066331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:18:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:24:50 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On 23-jul-2007, at 18:48, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default >> settings. > I agree. But the market reality (and we heard it explicitly from a > well known CPE vendor at the microphone) is that they will not sell > $50 consumer gateways that allow incoming unsolicited SYN or UDP > by default. We need to make realistic recommendations in that context. Hm, but another vendor, better known for other stuff, but also selling fine CPEs, presented a draft, and he told us that one of the reasons they decided to flip their default from no filtering to rejecting incoming sessions is that the IETF has consensus that this is the best approach. Personally, I would love to see firewalls and other devices that think they know better what's good for me than I do die a violent death, but then again, there is lots of stuff out there that can't handle being connected to the unfiltered internet and doing exactly that without 5 years or so of countering "you need a firewall" indoctrination and replacing it with "you need to run a safe-out-of- the-box OS" won't do us any favors. At this point, it looks like the best option is to have an extremely light-weight protocol that allows OSes (applications?) to open up these filters that are going to be present in default configurations so that only hosts that feel they're secure get unfiltered access to the network while other stuff is prevented from shooting itself in the foot. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:26:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO9m-0003nv-6B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:26:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDO9l-0006VE-J4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:26:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO99-000J0x-RP for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:26:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDO8x-000Iza-Q4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:26:02 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E16CA327D for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 5E25510097 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:25:55 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a6fbbbb0000007f3-2b-46a6362142a4 Received: from [17.151.87.113] (unknown [17.151.87.113]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 73AE4100D0 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6391B6A5-089F-409D-B661-0BE3DEC7CF61@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:25:27 -0500 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:31, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > > To be fair, I was told UPnP does support authentication. Only =20 > nobody uses it, very much like almost nobody uses authenticated DHCP. I have not heard that before, but it doesn't surprise me. I do know =20 that UPnP IGD is typically used without any authentication and that =20 Apple's support for it in mDNSResponder assumes that the =20 unauthenticated mode of operation is all that's necessary. > I am sure James could add some kind of authentication mechanism for =20= > ALD, but I doubt it would see much real-life use. Unless people =20 > feel it should be usable from the outside, much like you can open =20 > your house outside door with the appropriate key. In fact, the security considerations section in my current draft =20 offers the opinion that IPsec and IKE are the appropriate ways to =20 secure the ALD exchange between listeners and firewalls. I don't =20 feel confident that I have adequately explored the issue, but my =20 hunch is that network layer security mechanisms ought to be used for =20 securing network layer control messaging. It's possible that ALD =20 needs specific signaling in Firewall Advertisements to indicate that =20 listeners must have an IPsec SA to be established if they expect =20 their notifications to be processed. However, I wouldn't expect this =20= feature to be necessary in most residential / small-office CPE =20 deployments. > In any case, I think people advocating stateful firewalls on CPEs =20 > should > really get familiar with the work done in BEHAVE wg. I am very =20 > sorry that the > use and abuse of stateful firewalls in IPv4 world has lead to the =20 > unusability > of just about any IETF transport protocol but UDP (Christian =20 > already hinted > at this). If we are to require stateful firewalls for unmanaged =20 > network, we > REALLY REALLY REALLY need to clearly explain how TCP, SCTP, DCCP =20 > and any > other connection oriented protocol is expected to operate home-to-=20 > home. Not > doing that would be equivalent to stating that the only valid model =20= > for > unmanaged IPv6 is client at home and server in the server farm. At this point, I'm beginning to believe that we are seeing the =20 outlines of a very serious philosophical debate between two factions, =20= most recently represented on this list by Itojun and Fred =20 respectively, who have foundationally different views about the =20 ethics of network security methodologies. As a Rorty-ian neo-=20 Pragmatist myself, I'm sensitive to the possibility that these two =20 philosophical systems may not, in fact, have any objective principles =20= in common, and that the best we might hope to do is try to get as =20 much intersubjective agreement about our principles as we can muster, =20= and proceed accordingly. I believe there may be more overlap than =20 most participants think. I'm thinking about how to gather together the points where I think =20 there might be some philosophical agreement. I may have to write a =20 draft. Before I do that, I may have to spew random thoughts onto the =20= mailing list and see what sticks. Sorry about that. Is there a tradition in IETF of writing philosophy essays as Internet =20= drafts? > By the way, to amend James's slideset, only UDP really works with =20 > ICE (or any > form of hole punching), while TCP works to a very-lesser extent, and > everything else does not: DCCP, SCTP, IPsec... I think I was careful to use "ICE-like" as the construction in my =20 slides. I was trying to hint at the various techniques in currency =20 within the BEHAVE working group products for traversing the stateful =20 filters in IPv4/NAT, e.g. TCP simultaneous open, relay services, etc. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:32:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOFe-0007j2-Rd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:32:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOFe-0006du-6c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:32:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOEi-000KoR-7Y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:31:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOEM-000Kke-FB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:31:40 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 780DB233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:31:29 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:24:50 -0500" <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> References: <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724173129.780DB233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:31:29 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca > >> but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default > >> settings. > > > I agree. But the market reality (and we heard it explicitly from a > > well known CPE vendor at the microphone) is that they will not sell > > $50 consumer gateways that allow incoming unsolicited SYN or UDP > > by default. We need to make realistic recommendations in that context. > > Hm, but another vendor, better known for other stuff, but also > selling fine CPEs, presented a draft, and he told us that one of the > reasons they decided to flip their default from no filtering to > rejecting incoming sessions is that the IETF has consensus that this > is the best approach. i do not remember seeing IETF consensus on this matter. > Personally, I would love to see firewalls and other devices that > think they know better what's good for me than I do die a violent > death, but then again, there is lots of stuff out there that can't > handle being connected to the unfiltered internet and doing exactly > that without 5 years or so of countering "you need a firewall" > indoctrination and replacing it with "you need to run a safe-out-of- > the-box OS" won't do us any favors. we have been telling people about it, not via IETF channel. in short: - with firewalled environment morale to administer individual machines go down, and they will left unpatched - then VPN and laptop throw in viruses and bots into organization (it is from inside so firewall has no use) - hence you need to purchase host firewalls and anti-virus products - and you have to keep updating virus signature files if you use OS that is secure enough, you do not have to worry about NONE of the above. so you got so much lower costs in operation. if you happened to pick OpenBSD and need some commercial support, of course there are: http://www.openbsd.org/support.html i heard Microsoft is undergoing a serious audit of Vista, i'm not too sure about the outcome, but i guess we can hope. > At this point, it looks like the best option is to have an extremely > light-weight protocol that allows OSes (applications?) to open up > these filters that are going to be present in default configurations > so that only hosts that feel they're secure get unfiltered access to > the network while other stuff is prevented from shooting itself in > the foot. again, complexity of UPnP on top of complexity of firewall. remember "KISS princile"? itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:37:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOKD-0000M2-8L for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:37:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOKC-0006n8-Ky for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:37:33 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOJZ-000LwV-A8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:36:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOJJ-000Lsn-VU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:36:47 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OHYZqm066600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:34:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A508C8.9020908@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:20:16 -0500 To: Jeroen Massar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On 23-jul-2007, at 15:00, Jeroen Massar wrote: > I am actually starting to believe that we really need a secure > protocol > ala uPnP for requesting 'privileges' for sending packets over a > network > border, current NAT boxes/gateways. > Lets say I am sitting behind my laptop, and I want to go to > www.wikipedia.org (http over tcp, port 80) then my host should 'ask' a > $device on the network if I am allowed to make a TCP connection to > port > 80 of www.wikipedia.org. $device in the network then gives me a tag > saying 'here you go' and distributes this tag also to the firewalls > that > are in the network to allow traffic tagged with this through. Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away we tried to come up with a way to do scalable multihoming for IPv6. One of the approaches I came up with (yes, I came up with several, as did a bunch of other people, we had 30+ active drafts at one point) (although I think I never wrote a draft for this one) was: Make middleboxes part of the architecture. Those middleboxes would then be able to do pretty much what shim6 does, and a lot of other things. One of those things would be limiting access to the outside world based on the application and application version. So if today there's a new vulnerability in your favorite browser, tomorrow that browser can't connect to the rest of the world but only to favoritebrowserupdate.com. Another feature that you get for free is translation between IPv4 and IPv6. If you squint a bit you may notice that using a proxy pretty much gives you this in a more ad-hoc way. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:38:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOLP-0000aF-BN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:38:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOLP-0006on-4T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:38:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOKn-000MIe-4H for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:38:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOKT-000MGP-St for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:37:57 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id DB8FF233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:37:48 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:20:16 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724173748.DB8FF233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:37:48 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea > Make middleboxes part of the architecture. Those middleboxes would that is called "RSIP". itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:38:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOLa-0000bv-9Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:38:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOLZ-0006p7-Q7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:38:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOKx-000MK3-Vp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:38:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.233.162.235] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOKR-000MFi-5E for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:37:57 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s1so1511940nze for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:37:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=jeCfguseQ9U91s+1jN+sGJRY8pK0ZL+8ezE1RaTAmSgDvS7d67hlKzedOsEk9CETNvqI+ZTPuWnT1hGeHRSibCsxeZatPbvl6Sise7OpO7Hp6kBW6CZWrP9/nqBr4GG8i71KtA/aIXgnmJn8uyWWRbcQQmqDF4v+ug1BO+Mj2qE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=dI5pau4g3HH/hFs/GO9oVDr0yk0CxhwWRQ3CUK9wg1DW3lVq9oFIQyqrl0olMhath6BGFbKJQoAftGHj09YzOC+ieyay1Od0Qa8g8PpfmCxyfbCQr7a6C6jWgU0yh74Il+KZlVO7Pym827WK/sk5XSWaAqHj5xdpD3ujCUoBX7s= Received: by 10.114.193.1 with SMTP id q1mr4282642waf.1185298665191; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.148.19 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9e31186f0707241037g1cf1d3adn35efc8eef1160662@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:37:45 +0100 From: "Carlos Garcia Braschi" To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "IPv6 Ops list" Subject: Re: BCP for multisite multihoming In-Reply-To: <2D928131-577E-4CC1-A2E5-BEC761573305@sackheads.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6277E059-3A64-4AEA-8489-1FFDBB953476@dragondata.com> <200705221514.l4MFEopk010115@cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com> <465398B2.1040500@baycix.de> <4653F6F6.3070206@gmail.com> <9e31186f0707200517g9fb2694oc6abc0296513c863@mail.gmail.com> <8C7982C1-327C-48BE-8548-895D3B48BDA1@sackheads.org> <2D928131-577E-4CC1-A2E5-BEC761573305@sackheads.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 2007/7/24, John Payne : > > > > > On Jul 23, 2007, at 10:33 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum > wrote: > > > On 21-jul-2007, at 10:27, John Payne wrote: > > > >> Geo addressing sounds interesting on the surface, but every > >> proposal seems to require a new economic model. I find it difficult > >> to believe that will happen anytime soon. > > > > As the saying goes, there are many ways to skin a cat. If you hand > > over the packets with destinations in a certain region to an entity > > that handles that region, such as an internet exchange, then you're > > indeed using a different economical model than we use today. > > > > But you can also do all the geo stuff in your own network. For > > instance, if you have a world wide network, you could split the > > world into 10 pieces and handle routing for each of those regions > > only within the region. The other regions then use an aggregate to > > get the packets to the right region. You would of course have to > > peer with other networks within these regions or break aggregation. > > But then, if you have a world wide network you're almost certainly > > peering in more than 10 places as it is anyway. > > Yes... But I'm probably also very selective who I peer with at those > 10 locations. Under the geo model, I have to pretty much peer with > everyone, everywhere. > Not everywhere. You only need to peer in an exchange if you have local customers in that country, and you would peer anyway in that country to provide them with local access. And if you limit this model for multihoming customers, you only need to peer with other operators that do have multihoming customers... and you can try to trust the selectivity of your multihoming customers. Or this can be started in those IXs that do have "peer with everyone" policies... that does not usually mean that you peer gratis. The IX only gives out multihoming addresses to participants that have secured peering agreements with all the others. Bear in mind that smaller players would have problems anyway to get fair peering deals > > > > > > >> The other problem with using IXs that immediately comes to mind is > >> that you are essentially multihoming to a single piece of > >> infrastructure. Not really resilient in my mind :) > > > > Exchanges are often layer 2 networks, which aren't very resilient. > > But money and engineering talent can fix these problems. > > Who's money? > IX costs are rather low anyway compared with international transit, so it pays to have them resilient. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:40:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDON1-0000w9-Ii for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:40:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDON1-0006rj-5i for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:40:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOMb-000MXz-5t for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:40:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOMC-000MTQ-Mz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:39:45 +0000 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:39:35 -0700 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.69.169) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:39:34 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.25]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:39:33 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:38:59 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D064053D16ED@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <20070724164401.3E453233CB@coconut.itojun.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CPE equipments and stateful filters Thread-Index: AcfOEtQLrknhooJvSR2fKi9ozzt7YAABYD1w References: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20070724164401.3E453233CB@coconut.itojun.org> From: Christian Huitema To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2007 17:39:33.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[98DCF430:01C7CE19] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 > > There might be a misunderstanding here. As far as I can tell, UPnP, > NAT-PMP > > and ALD all allow (unauthenticated) requests coming from the inside, > and > > discard any requests coming from the outside. In the physical world, > most > > locks can be undone without key from the inside, and only need a key > from the > > inside. >=20 > i mentioned about the following story: > - machines inside of your organization gets infected by viruses, > trojan > hoses or whatever and bad guys take control of the box. > this can be due to poorly-mangaged laptop with VPN reachability > towards inside of your organization, infected laptop goes into > your > organization after a trip to chicago, whatever. > - bad guys plays with UPnP and punch holes on your firewall All this is an issue of tradeoffs. "Stateful firewalls" are one particular type of trade-off. They purport to augment the security of the system by limiting the possibility of unsolicited connection. This is a classic way to "reduce the attack surface", and provided serious benefits when systems would have a large number of ports open by default.=20 But the stateful firewalls block desirable applications, so applications have to develop workarounds that in turn increase the attack surface. Controlling the NAT with UPNP is one such workaround. STUN, ICE, Teredo are another. Services like "go to my PC" are yet another. Today, we cannot assess the potential security benefit of stateful firewalls without looking at the whole system, i.e. firewalls plus traversal mechanisms. When you take into accounts that modern systems definitely do not leave many ports open by default, the benefit appears dubious. -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:46:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOSj-0001G6-NC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:46:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOSi-00070F-Gh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:46:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDORr-000NQw-Q8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:45:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [216.37.94.58] (helo=hiltonsmtp.worldspice.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDORg-000NPL-PI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:45:22 +0000 Received: (qmail 15597 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jul 2007 17:37:37 -0000 Received: by simscan 1.2.0 ppid: 15590, pid: 15593, t: 0.9369s scanners: clamav: 0.90.2/m: spam: 3.1.8 Received: from unknown (HELO ?172.28.171.237?) (jordi.palet@consulintel.es@67.97.210.2) by hiltonsmtp.worldspice.net with ESMTPA; 24 Jul 2007 17:37:37 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IPv6 Operations CC: <69attendees@ietf.org> Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: AcfOGmFJn5iApDoNEdyQYQAX8sYbNQ== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Fully agree. I was absolutely unable to get DHCP working during more than two hours yesterday afternoon, which is unacceptable in my opinion. However I was able to use IPv6, manually configuring my own IPv6 DNS resolver from my home network. It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more parameters available in the RA. And by the way, unfortunately the DHCP issues are very very very very frequent in many networks, not sure if its a protocol/design issue or just not so good DHCP implementations, but it is the reality. Regards, Jordi > De: Iljitsch van Beijnum > Responder a: <69attendees-bounces@ietf.org> > Fecha: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:17:22 -0500 > Para: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino > CC: IPv6 Operations , <69attendees@ietf.org> > Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP > > [people were complaining about delays in getting an IPv4 address over > DHCP, CCing the v6ops list to make a point] > > On 24-jul-2007, at 10:19, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > >> good reason to use IPv6 entirely, as long as you have IPv6 DNS >> server:-P > > More specifically, stateless autoconfig seems to work a lot better > than DHCP in this case: one router advertisement can provide a large > number of clients with address and configuration information, while > DHCP requires messages back and forth for each individual client. A > good reason to make sure that it's possible to run IPv6 with all that > that entails (= DNS resolver addresses) without the need to run > DHCPv6 if running DHCPv6 isn't specifically desired. > > _______________________________________________ > 69ATTENDEES mailing list > 69ATTENDEES@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/69attendees From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:46:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOSr-0001Gb-NP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:46:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOSr-00070S-D7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:46:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDORZ-000NNr-45 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:45:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDORN-000NLI-IP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:45:03 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OHgteB066831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:42:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1933DBB7-2496-48EB-BE95-C69C4182DD7E@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:41:09 -0500 To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 24-jul-2007, at 10:34, Fred Baker wrote: > I think the right solution is an authenticated access protocol. If > UPnP is publicly documented, fine, if James' protocol is the best > bet, fine, and if it is something else, so be it. Please note that uPnP is a death trap of a protocol, and the fact that it was "not invented here" shows in a bad way. > But a protocol that allows one to identify oneself and gain > admittance on authorization provides for the concerns that you > have. Someone from within can access out, the governing contract > being the authorization to do so, and on AAA confirmation access in > is granted, which enables someone with legitimate access privileges > to access what they are authorized to access. This makes a lot of sense for a corporate network, but do we really want to go this far for home networks? Especially since blocking inbound sessions _maybe_ removes 10% of the bad stuff that may happen to you (in IPv4, less in IPv6) while browser exploits, that don't need incoming sessions, are responsible for 60% or so of all security problems. The "creamy inside, crunchy outside" security model just doesn't work. If you want systems connected to a network to be secure, you need to go into those systems and remove or patch the stuff that's wide open and waiting to be compromised. And, of course, the most insecure part of any computer is still the left mouse button. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:56:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOcJ-0001Tm-5q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:56:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOcI-0007BA-Q3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:56:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOb3-000Ouy-QT for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:54:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [205.158.62.78] (helo=smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOan-000Or7-Co for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:54:52 +0000 Received: (qmail 21656 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2007 17:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.4.143?) (jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@216.12.128.136) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 24 Jul 2007 17:51:41 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7DA7EADE-220D-4060-91AA-17086D62E955@apple.com> References: <142ABCD9-BDE9-4E49-96BA-21FC701F795C@cisco.com> <7DA7EADE-220D-4060-91AA-17086D62E955@apple.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:54:34 -0400 To: james woodyatt From: John Curran Subject: Re: An Internet IPv6 Transition Plan Cc: v6ops WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 FYI - I'm on v6ops, although generally just lurking. Excellent suggestion; I'll likely go with the change to that "Organizations MAY treat Internet-facing IPv4 servers as not production." This gets the point across without entering the deprecation realm. Thanks again, /John At 9:50 AM -0500 7/24/07, james woodyatt wrote: >On Jul 24, 2007, at 09:12, Fred Baker forwarded: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-00.txt >> >>>2.2 Transition Phase - January 2009 to December 2010 >>> [...] >>> During the Post-Transition Phase, the following principles apply: >>> [...] >>> 2.3.4 Service Providers area MAY continue to offer IPv4-based Internet >>> connectivity to their customers. Organizations MAY continue to >>> use IPv4-based Internet connectivity. Organizations MAY remove >>> IPv4-based Internet connectivity from Internet-facing servers. > >The final sentence here is the point where the principles seem to move from describing the transition toward IPv6-based service to describing the process of deprecating IPv4. While I'm all in favor of deprecating IPv4 over time, I think it deserves to be the topic of a separate draft. > >I would recommend dropping that last sentence, or perhaps changing it to this: "Organizations MAY treat Internet-facing IPv4 servers as not production." > > >-- >james woodyatt >member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 13:56:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOcN-0001Uv-Nk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:56:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOcN-0007BK-Dt for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:56:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOZC-000OdB-U8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:53:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOZ1-000ObA-RT for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:52:57 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OHom0B067095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:50:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <377841F9-612A-476C-8ED1-5B126BE35971@muada.com> Cc: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:52:42 -0500 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On 24-jul-2007, at 11:31, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > By the way, to amend James's slideset, only UDP really works with =20 > ICE (or any > form of hole punching), while TCP works to a very-lesser extent, and > everything else does not: DCCP, SCTP, IPsec... Why? An important issue about the hole punching is the shape of the hole. =20 If the hole has the shape of a particular transport session, you're =20 not accomplishing much because you still can't receive arbitrary =20 incoming sessions. If the hole is for a transport session with a =20 wildcard at the remote end, you still need to understand the =20 transports well enough to catch them. If the hole is IP-shaped, life =20 is easy but then there are only two flavors: completely closed and =20 completely open. That means only hosts that can do all their own =20 filtering could safely open up a hole.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:06:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOm5-0001Sr-0y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:06:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOm4-0007O6-Nw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:06:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOkT-000PyC-91 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:04:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOkH-000PwT-PL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:04:35 +0000 Received: from sjc12-sbr-sw3-3f5.cisco.com (HELO imail.cisco.com) ([172.19.96.182]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 11:02:27 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAP/apUasE2C2/2dsb2JhbAAN X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,575,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="187758539:sNHT40940595" Received: from [130.129.16.105] ([10.21.67.30]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l6OGgpXF001731; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:42:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:02:21 -0500 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=365; t=1185295372; x=1186159372; c=relaxed/simple; s=oregon; h=To:Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters |Sender:=20 |To:=20=3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=3DE9mi_Denis-Courmont?=3D=20; bh=QaLqo68tpdMM6wh2O9mblbDMjtNyM5VV30XnaPRGP+g=; b=Fw05ete3a6Lx7XPDr4unpcGuPC4z89+Ws1QQIvNtV6DJPna3ZRrIPwSRLtRscFxzamhdGwEI xGRZgHpkqddIAQTRU4Lfhi4c1Yd2rwwQxg6hxL/KZ1oE2TJwzWqAm+9b; Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/oregon verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:31 AM, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > I am very sorry that the use and abuse of stateful firewalls in =20 > IPv4 world has lead to the unusability of just about any IETF =20 > transport protocol but UDP (Christian already hinted at this). gee whiz. I use TCP through my stateful firewall all the time. What =20 is the impediment? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:09:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOot-00055c-6Q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:09:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOos-0007Rf-Su for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:09:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOob-0000eT-2J for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:08:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOoQ-0000am-BO for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:08:51 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C1B7CF24CA; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 05C5A10025; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:08:46 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a7fbdbb0000007f3-3e-46a640185220 Received: from [17.151.68.162] (unknown [17.151.68.162]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id B22CC10022; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <20070724151937.B5F6A233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:08:21 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations , 69attendees@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Jul 24, 2007, at 12:17, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 24-jul-2007, at 10:19, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> >> good reason to use IPv6 entirely, as long as you have IPv6 DNS >> server:-P > > [...] A good reason to make sure that it's possible to run IPv6 > with all that that entails (= DNS resolver addresses) without the > need to run DHCPv6 if running DHCPv6 isn't specifically desired. dns-sd -Q _domain._udp.local SRV --> /etc/resolv.conf Quite a thrilling proposal from a security perspective, but it's worth contrasting with the idea of reserving a global IPv6 anycast address for DNS resolving proxy servers. At least with the latter, a public network operator has an easier time keeping rogue DNS resolvers from poisoning the network. On the other hand, the former *is* clearly BETTER THAN NOTHING, which is what we have now. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:09:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOp1-00057Y-NA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:09:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOp1-0007Ry-Bs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:09:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOoN-0000ab-BO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:08:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOoC-0000Wk-Py for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:08:38 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id C092E233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:08:31 +0900 (JST) To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, 69attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:10 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:08:31 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 now i see rogue RAs which advertise fec0:0:0:4::/64 and 202:8281:1768:4::/64. my guess is that this is from the same guy. we need L2 switch vendors to implement ways to prevent rogue RA/DHCPv6 sources, just like ways to avoiding rogue DHCPv4 servers/relay agents. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:13:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOse-00064Z-VP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:13:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOse-0007WX-IN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:13:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOrw-0001FU-Lg for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:12:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOrl-0001E9-Pt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:12:19 +0000 Received: from sjc12-sbr-sw3-3f5.cisco.com (HELO imail.cisco.com) ([172.19.96.182]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 11:12:14 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAJPdpUasE2C2/2dsb2JhbAAN X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,575,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="387812088:sNHT32786924" Received: from [130.129.16.105] ([10.21.67.30]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l6OGqdml002157; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:52:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20070723204457.46964233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <46A51045.6070409@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <20070723204457.46964233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <40BDFAC3-BAE5-4347-939F-DF235FC10DB6@cisco.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: Tagging traffic (Was: CPE equipments and stateful filters) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:12:06 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1768; t=1185295959; x=1186159959; c=relaxed/simple; s=oregon; h=To:Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Tagging=20traffic=20(Was=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and= 20stateful=20filters) |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jun-ichiro=20itojun=20Hagino=20; bh=baR1Sa8kPP9PAdmhJQYZsvvOf2zukhko4aB4Piajgrg=; b=jm/NfVc962MV3ohnfPikZM7u65HBTKHXqzEsxHUMxUtQ7S4sn5ToZs0jX3jmnX+mSqHjwSaP fK+9urBYeBNwjls60hfAbNjMLLl78qmjkZw+jEW717zzvc+CgwkKy3sa; Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/oregon verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa On Jul 23, 2007, at 3:44 PM, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > IP address is always locator > and you have to use X.509 certs or ssh host key for IDs. I would really strongly suggest that you re-read the Nimrod architecture: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1992.txt 1992 The Nimrod Routing Architecture. I. Castineyra, N. Chiappa, M. Steenstrup. August 1996. (Format: TXT=59848 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) "A locator is a string of binary digits that identifies a location in an internetwork. Nodes and endpoint are assigned locators." "An endpoint represents a user of the internetwork layer: for example, a transport connection. Each endpoint has at least one endpoint identifier (EID)." I would agree that the current id/locator split discussion has some real problems; it has adopted nimrod language and hopes to acheive GSE results, but uses the terms to mean something different than Nimrod defined (as does GSE), and the result of GSE derives from the existence and use of equivalence classes among names, not from the id/ loc split. That's another discussion :-) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1753.txt 1753 IPng Technical Requirements Of the Nimrod Routing and Addressing Architecture. N. Chiappa. December 1994. (Format: TXT=46586 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2102.txt 2102 Multicast Support for Nimrod : Requirements and Solution Approaches. R. Ramanathan. February 1997. (Format: TXT=50963 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2103.txt 2103 Mobility Support for Nimrod : Challenges and Solution Approaches. R. Ramanathan. February 1997. (Format: TXT=41352 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:16:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOvZ-0002DD-3d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:16:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOvY-0007aQ-RD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:16:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOuo-0001i6-Ns for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:15:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOue-0001gK-1s for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:15:17 +0000 Received: from sjc12-sbr-sw3-3f5.cisco.com (HELO imail.cisco.com) ([172.19.96.182]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2007 11:15:11 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgAAAMDepUasE2C2/2dsb2JhbAAN X-IronPort-AV: i="4.16,575,1175497200"; d="scan'208"; a="506527341:sNHT138380444" Received: from [130.129.16.105] ([10.21.67.30]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l6OGtbP2002288; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:55:37 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1933DBB7-2496-48EB-BE95-C69C4182DD7E@muada.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <1933DBB7-2496-48EB-BE95-C69C4182DD7E@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6D78303D-3730-4254-A7CE-02F455312A11@cisco.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:15:07 -0500 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=202; t=1185296138; x=1186160138; c=relaxed/simple; s=oregon; h=To:Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters |Sender:=20 |To:=20Iljitsch=20van=20Beijnum=20; bh=7YgyDVH8q2lZ2bWKmizNFrxSb8qfLggSEa9gk3RkmUA=; b=da6GfGfv1c+jMlz5p3B3YkJ10cUpwFAYPu7pUL4N09NNN1wN6IsGNTX6LXFhuOK4q2rmWFuO XqGLCArCZS71aO4kcrj7qUSF6N7By+UKv9B4SH0f8U0s8fUil0iSSIBZ; Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/oregon verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 On Jul 24, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > And, of course, the most insecure part of any computer is still the > left mouse button. not so! it's the idiot attached to it... From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:17:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOx8-0003F5-MY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:17:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOx8-0007cx-E5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:17:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOwh-0001xg-64 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:17:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOwW-0001w6-7g for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:17:13 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OIF6Mv067594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:15:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724173129.780DB233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> <20070724173129.780DB233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:17:00 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On 24-jul-2007, at 12:31, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > again, complexity of UPnP on top of complexity of firewall. > remember "KISS princile"? That may very well be, but if you have a firewall and/or NAT device, NOT having something that can punch holes means you pretty much never get to talk to anyone else in the same situation, so no peer to peer applications, IM, voice/video chat... So either kill the firewall or live with the complexity. Iljitsch From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:19:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOyO-000477-Mr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:19:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDOyO-0007eG-EN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:19:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOxi-0002Am-DU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:18:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOxX-00029V-Fd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:18:16 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 67FD1233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:18:10 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:17:00 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724181810.67FD1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:18:10 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad > > again, complexity of UPnP on top of complexity of firewall. > > remember "KISS princile"? > > That may very well be, but if you have a firewall and/or NAT device, > NOT having something that can punch holes means you pretty much never > get to talk to anyone else in the same situation, so no peer to peer > applications, IM, voice/video chat... So either kill the firewall or > live with the complexity. as i mentioned before, i do not have any kind of firewall in my home. itojun@eat your own dog food From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:21:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDP0t-0006fb-Vl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:21:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDP0t-0007ha-I0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:21:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOzk-0002Wr-Ol for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:20:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDOzZ-0002UA-2c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:20:22 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7893CF287E for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id A5BA329C002 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:20:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a5f3ebb000000b34-de-46a642dd7260 Received: from [17.151.68.162] (unknown [17.151.68.162]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 5918C30400F for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:20:10 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:24, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > At this point, it looks like the best option is to have an > extremely light-weight protocol that allows OSes (applications?) to > open up these filters that are going to be present in default > configurations so that only hosts that feel they're secure get > unfiltered access to the network while other stuff is prevented > from shooting itself in the foot. The obvious rebuttal (which, in my mind, always comes with a middle- class English accent from my having heard something like it over and over again from Stuart Cheshire) is this: Devices that aren't secure enough for unfiltered access to and from the public Internet SHOULD NOT be accepting router advertisements for globally reachable IPv6 prefixes. Sheltering them with stateful packet filters at network gateways removes the incentive for their engineers to consider network security with an appropriate level of seriousness, which leads to more problems than the packet filters are intended to (or capable of) solving. We made this mistake with IPv4 for reasons that make sense only in their historical context. There is no reason to insist on making this mistake again with IPv6. This is hinting toward the philosophical matters I think underlie this debate. I'm working on a more polished argument for striking an acceptable compromise. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:24:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDP3H-0000Fv-OG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:24:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDP3G-0007lV-Hr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:24:07 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDP2H-0002vM-No for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:23:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDP26-0002uQ-M4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:23:00 +0000 Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6OIMlQG012912 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:47 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6OIMaa1024871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:36 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l6OIMapG018999 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:36 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l6OIMa9c018998 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:36 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:36 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070724182236.GB18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: IPv6 Operations References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Null-Tag: 8f54b2d48eca823ddf72986aab96022a X-Null-Tag: 7f7266c9c5be9fd286f096fa39c858fa X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 12:45:10PM -0500, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Fully agree. > > I was absolutely unable to get DHCP working during more than two hours > yesterday afternoon, which is unacceptable in my opinion. > > However I was able to use IPv6, manually configuring my own IPv6 DNS > resolver from my home network. Well I think a number of people have put a lot of work in to avoid open IPv4 recursive DNS servers... > It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more > parameters available in the RA. > > And by the way, unfortunately the DHCP issues are very very very very > frequent in many networks, not sure if its a protocol/design issue or just > not so good DHCP implementations, but it is the reality. As Itojun has spotted, there are rogue IPv6 RAs on the network, so IPv6 is not necessarily any better for you in this type of network. Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:32:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPBD-0005Rb-Qm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:32:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPBD-0007vI-Ek for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:32:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPA2-0004NB-EM for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:31:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDP9r-0004LX-GJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:31:01 +0000 Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6OIUkpw014928; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:46 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6OIUcRM025696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:38 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l6OIUctI019110; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:38 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l6OIUcgr019109; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:38 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:38 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, 69attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, 69attendees@ietf.org References: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Null-Tag: 76a2880f4a6f2ae8f9065b82194a4272 X-Null-Tag: 5bd7f08c70fac0a08a27634ca2d7c43b X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 03:08:31AM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > now i see rogue RAs which advertise fec0:0:0:4::/64 and > 202:8281:1768:4::/64. my guess is that this is from the same guy. > > we need L2 switch vendors to implement ways to prevent rogue RA/DHCPv6 > sources, just like ways to avoiding rogue DHCPv4 servers/relay agents. Any comments on http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/slides/dhc-5.pdf to the v6ops list would be welcome. A couple of us will be converting this material, which was assembled from talking to various admin type people from enterprise networks, into an informational draft in the next couple of weeks. The draft will include feedback received from dhc and v6ops WG meetings yesterday, and hopefully generate some discussion towards 'bcp' type advice. -- Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:35:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPEZ-0001ca-9Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:35:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPEY-0007zl-V7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:35:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPEB-0005Ec-O9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:35:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.170] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPE0-0005CX-Np for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:35:18 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so212100uge for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Zgav3FtAHTkWjAvD78eZV61iWXYZ7t+JkErr0LWEMzwOdsZFK5ptQAzQzA37jq17vj80iP9viuGhEpFS+vCb6iQ0n5lXYUnB3TdY9+L4aAIkMv95G84d2aDaAU/ljf+pdYCo05l+hJl2qcJJH7LcqAlM4bcDT8GuZjyvmleTWpw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tW3FPTm3achKLNX3+11uxlP4Ta9NR1FgqpRhcPEg9wUGs0Iukkvg47ZpV7qTZrwaEZvoWyGBl/SMkOqi9cgySiWecMuHEdPmjnpfstXic+RzfMuT4qnZxRJBp1r5lqdhT7u0t971RzLrvgy1uv1yeWpBvQURve2lL9F1Ae5wh5E= Received: by 10.86.100.7 with SMTP id x7mr3420418fgb.1185302111045; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.20.99? ( [130.129.20.99]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w5sm26333860mue.2007.07.24.11.35.09 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A6465C.1080108@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:35:08 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters References: <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> <20070724173129.780DB233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724173129.780DB233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 2007-07-24 19:31, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>>> but i suggest that we need to be REAL careful about the default >>>> settings. >>> I agree. But the market reality (and we heard it explicitly from a >>> well known CPE vendor at the microphone) is that they will not sell >>> $50 consumer gateways that allow incoming unsolicited SYN or UDP >>> by default. We need to make realistic recommendations in that context. >> Hm, but another vendor, better known for other stuff, but also >> selling fine CPEs, presented a draft, and he told us that one of the >> reasons they decided to flip their default from no filtering to >> rejecting incoming sessions is that the IETF has consensus that this >> is the best approach. > > i do not remember seeing IETF consensus on this matter. In fact RFC 4864 is an informational document that does not use RFC 2119 keywords, and its scope is very clear (see the Abstract): a description of how a site can obtain the claimed benefits of NAT without using a NAT. Among other things, iff you want stateful firewalling, RFC 4864 shows that you don't need a NAT to obtain it. That is orthogonal to the question of whether stateful firewalling is a good thing. I think we should write the CPE document in the same spirit - if you want a stateful firewall in your CPE, here is what it should do. (And I have no doubt we can learn from BEHAVE.) Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:40:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPIg-0005Kc-7o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:40:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPIf-00086s-Ve for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:40:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPI5-0005u0-Qo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:39:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.169] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPHv-0005sg-0R for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:39:20 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so212781uge for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Hs0uFCco02jvlKkMPKEmsG1jqkF6yhs0YziMq0RPjCDnnqypCXYWPSYDvi5acRu7qMxwAZJHuQh3k7OZEDRVa/RPlyDp4DiVc80iytrG5tnpbnxBvyKDv7wp7ghgyGjjrgpM4ChQghtQngYIjs+ikcjmA/cqwWdGTk+atlWOB2w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pXArSPTM+l5JHRKy0Jq3mEDdoZunQK/ermiddkdQzaYbNSqZDRRJvw5sR/eH5sps6cBwmEFPQmz4WoBE2v9+C4/In+PRgJX7XYdKTgps4KnHLXMfXahu+6roH/g6+Y5WB4bdYWypcahfuZhAr0Pu5U5vNu+IIqIDhj6am/XpZf4= Received: by 10.86.82.16 with SMTP id f16mr3428814fgb.1185302353518; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.20.99? ( [130.129.20.99]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e8sm26376537muf.2007.07.24.11.39.11 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A6474E.3080302@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:39:10 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <2677351C-7049-4D1F-BFEA-669722AC567B@inetcore.com> <20070724165848.A5355233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724165848.A5355233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de > with "global > unicast" basically i assume "global reachability". I think we discovered during the original ULA discussion that global scope and global uniqueness do not imply global reachability. We have no way to express VPN style reachability using scopes. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:42:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPKo-0006qX-GN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:42:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPKo-0008Ap-5V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:42:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPK3-0006FX-JP for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPJs-0006Dt-7W for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:22 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OIdBnV068163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:39:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724181810.67FD1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724181810.67FD1233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:41:05 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On 24-jul-2007, at 13:18, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> That may very well be, but if you have a firewall and/or NAT device, >> NOT having something that can punch holes means you pretty much never >> get to talk to anyone else in the same situation, so no peer to peer >> applications, IM, voice/video chat... So either kill the firewall or >> live with the complexity. > as i mentioned before, i do not have any kind of firewall in my home. Neither do I (and there doesn't seem to be one between the IETF network and the rest of the world, either) but that's not really the point, apparently, we now have consensus that a firewall is needed for residential use but these people want to do peer-to-peer and run servers so we need the hole punching. If you can formulate an argument powerful enough to convince the rest of the world that firewalls aren't needed, this would be the moment to do it... http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2007-1338 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:42:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPKv-00078W-KB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:42:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPKv-0008Ba-Ao for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:42:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPK9-0006G6-J8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPJy-0006Ee-El for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:41:28 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:32:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C365967E0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:41:21 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:41:16 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 Cc: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <377841F9-612A-476C-8ED1-5B126BE35971@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <377841F9-612A-476C-8ED1-5B126BE35971@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707242141.17106.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a On Tuesday 24 July 2007 20:52:42 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 24-jul-2007, at 11:31, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > > By the way, to amend James's slideset, only UDP really works with > > ICE (or any > > form of hole punching), while TCP works to a very-lesser extent, and > > everything else does not: DCCP, SCTP, IPsec... > > Why? > > An important issue about the hole punching is the shape of the hole. > If the hole has the shape of a particular transport session, you're > not accomplishing much because you still can't receive arbitrary > incoming sessions. Yes, that still sucks. But if you have BEHAVE-TCP support, you can at least= do=20 TCP simultaneous open (forget about DCCP and SCTP though), provided you hav= e=20 an out-of-band signaling mechanism. Without BEHAVE-TCP, you cannot do home-to-home at all, and you have to inve= nt=20 your own crappy[1] protocol on top of UDP. [1] At least, *I* am not capable of reinventing something nearly as good as= =20 TCP or DCCP by myself. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:49:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPRl-0003gn-8h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:49:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPRk-0008Nn-VX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:49:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPQo-0007Ng-Kc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:48:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPQd-0007MP-Li for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:48:21 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OIkCw1068403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:46:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <200707242141.17106.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <377841F9-612A-476C-8ED1-5B126BE35971@muada.com> <200707242141.17106.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3664C54A-FFFB-4709-886F-C2214BCABF13@muada.com> Cc: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:48:06 -0500 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On 24-jul-2007, at 13:41, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: >> An important issue about the hole punching is the shape of the hole. >> If the hole has the shape of a particular transport session, you're >> not accomplishing much because you still can't receive arbitrary >> incoming sessions. > Yes, that still sucks. But if you have BEHAVE-TCP support, you can =20 > at least do > TCP simultaneous open (forget about DCCP and SCTP though), provided =20= > you have > an out-of-band signaling mechanism. > Without BEHAVE-TCP, you cannot do home-to-home at all, and you have =20= > to invent > your own crappy[1] protocol on top of UDP. Note that currently deployed NAT-PMP (Apple) and UPnP (the rest of =20 the world) forward all incoming sessions from the outside world =20 towards a specific port number towards the host that registered that =20 port number using NAT-PMP/UPnP, so the host in question gets to act =20 as a regular server (well, there's still NAT), no need for =20 simultaneous open or UDP tricks.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 14:59:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPbx-00058g-OK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:59:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPbx-00009F-Co for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:59:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPbL-0009CZ-8C for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:59:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPb7-0009Ap-KA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:59:13 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OIv0bq068687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:57:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> References: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:58:55 -0500 To: Tim Chown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 24-jul-2007, at 13:30, Tim Chown wrote: > Any comments on > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/slides/dhc-5.pdf > to the v6ops list would be welcome. Ignoring all the protocol details for a moment, it seems to me that the problem here is sourcing some kind of authentication between the network and the host. There are several mechanisms that allow the network to ask the host/user for credentials: 1. 802.1x 2. 802.11 WPA(2) 3. PPP PAP/CHAP It would make sense to make the authentication work the other way around as well, so you know you're actually talking to the network you think you're talking to (goodbye man in the middle and rogue access points) and then you can use that authentication data to futher authenticate later stages in the configuration process, such as RAs or DHCP. The scope of the work required is rather extensive, though, and many of the protocols used today aren't even IETF protocols. But getting this right would clearly be beneficial, if only to get rid of those annoying hacks that wifi hotspots use for authentication and payment. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 15:10:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPlg-0004x5-B0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:10:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPlf-0000Ls-3u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:10:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPkU-000AnR-6W for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:08:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [141.3.10.81] (helo=iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPkJ-000AkF-45 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:08:40 +0000 Received: from irams2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.10.82]) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtps id 1IDPkD-0000LO-4d; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:31 +0200 Received: from irams1.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.10.5]) by irams2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtps id 1IDPkB-0007GR-Ha; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:28 +0200 Received: from i72ms.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.70.5] helo=smtp.ipv6.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de) by irams1.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtps id 1IDPkB-0005IB-7i; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:27 +0200 Received: from vorta.ipv6.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de (vorta.ipv6.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de [IPv6:2001:638:204:6:207:e9ff:fe0c:5e44]) by smtp.ipv6.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A5B2FC014; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by vorta.ipv6.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1IDPk9-0002VO-VG; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:26 +0200 Message-ID: <46A64E2A.9070005@tm.uka.de> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:08:26 +0200 From: Roland Bless Organization: Institute of Telematics, University of Karlsruhe User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: IPv6 Operations , 69attendees@ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.4.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ATIS-Checksum: v3zoCAcc32ckk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hi Jordi, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > I was absolutely unable to get DHCP working during more than two hours > yesterday afternoon, which is unacceptable in my opinion. Luckily there weren't such heavy DHCP problems in the past few IETF meetings. However, we had them some time ago and are obviously common. > It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more > parameters available in the RA. Yes, but host implementations must also be enable to make use of such features... > And by the way, unfortunately the DHCP issues are very very very very > frequent in many networks, not sure if its a protocol/design issue or just > not so good DHCP implementations, but it is the reality. I can second that. I guess it is indeed a problem of broadcasting, per client request processing and packet loss. Stateless autoconfig seems to be much more robust and efficient in these cases. Regards, Roland From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 15:21:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPwY-0005iY-O3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:21:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPwX-0000ex-HT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:21:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPva-000CTJ-IY for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPvP-000CQZ-6L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:08 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:32:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3305967E0; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:20:01 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Tim Chown Subject: Rogue RAs (was Re: DHCP) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:19:16 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 Cc: IPv6 Operations References: <20070724182236.GB18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20070724182236.GB18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707242219.16115.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On Tuesday 24 July 2007 21:22:36 Tim Chown wrote: > As Itojun has spotted, there are rogue IPv6 RAs on the network, so IPv6 > is not necessarily any better for you in this type of network. There are really two different sorts of "rogue" RAs. Different in=20 their "motivation" and different in the way you can deal with them. One type is the evil RA, that is purposedly meant to do something nasty. Th= at,=20 I think, can only really be dealt with proper layer-2 access security, or=20 with SeND. Using DHCP only raises the implementation complexity for the evi= l=20 guys, as you pointed out yesterdat. The other type, is the lamely configured node. Most often that will be a ho= st=20 that automatically servers as 6to4 gateway when it has a public IPv4 addres= s.=20 I think Windows XP SP2 or Vista do that with Internet connection sharing=20 enabled, for instance. I doubt we need protocol extensions for this=20 particular case. It might be common at interop.net (incl. IETF) meetings, a= nd=20 rampant in some universities campuses, but that's about it. =46or that case, beside the various kludges we've already discussed during/= after=20 Prague: =2D 2002:... advertisements that do not include a non-6to4 non-site-local p= refix=20 when there is at least one such prefix on the same link (defensive mechanis= m)=20 could be ignored altogether, =2D "promiscuous" automated 6to4 routers should likely not advertise on any= =20 interface that is assigned a public IPv4 address since other nodes on the=20 link can most likely get 6to4 by themselves, =2E.. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 15:32:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDQ7M-0006Oo-Bc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:32:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDQ7L-0000we-PT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:32:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDQ5F-000DgV-9q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDQ54-000Ddx-6h for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:30:07 +0000 Received: from [130.129.17.115] (dhcp-1173.ietf69.org [130.129.17.115]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8809F29E1360; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:30:01 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> References: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <440C4F75-E483-4499-9FD8-36FAC972CD8F@viagenie.ca> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:30:02 -0500 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Le 07-07-24 =E0 13:58, Iljitsch van Beijnum a =E9crit : > On 24-jul-2007, at 13:30, Tim Chown wrote: > >> Any comments on > >> http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/slides/dhc-5.pdf > >> to the v6ops list would be welcome. > > Ignoring all the protocol details for a moment, it seems to me that =20= > the problem here is sourcing some kind of authentication between =20 > the network and the host. There are several mechanisms that allow =20 > the network to ask the host/user for credentials: > > 1. 802.1x > 2. 802.11 WPA(2) > 3. PPP PAP/CHAP > > It would make sense to make the authentication work the other way =20 > around as well, so you know you're actually talking to the network =20 > you think you're talking to SEND[RFC3971]? Marc. > (goodbye man in the middle and rogue access points) and then you =20 > can use that authentication data to futher authenticate later =20 > stages in the configuration process, such as RAs or DHCP. > > The scope of the work required is rather extensive, though, and =20 > many of the protocols used today aren't even IETF protocols. But =20 > getting this right would clearly be beneficial, if only to get rid =20 > of those annoying hacks that wifi hotspots use for authentication =20 > and payment. ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 15:36:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDQBV-0000Xu-Pz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:36:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDPbC-00007x-0q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 14:59:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPZy-00094H-RX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:57:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDPZm-00092A-RF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:57:49 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1185306881; x=1185911681; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=ls4SXNbJ9AIepm 91qlT8NzlzHV1wKrZroRlAuYCygo63DgyEAxMInf1u3v/CnyrIcARhXkMopm2kit KEQt+T2QkHtmMOi57M1FBPB84Chj4zr/bgeeYTszmu1FmWgvzKQPypxoQqnukhMZ nkMsa9GE2R338X02nDYXrIdaSJU34= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=owmBJx6uDE6hMKXXxtKyj5rBbNaG5q+R1oxarqNMUr4Nekfwnka10CNcqU8buhNOJHvuVbQ4lTGvNN4Rc6lTfuTZH9AGXPvswbXK5NcYfEaHeSIRpq54NyQQyFjdUtDNHgDFMzxYj9rDpQohqtjkTZ88IYCT1ARoGaetKqnLUe8=; Received: from [130.129.22.178] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002591660.msg for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:50:27 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:53:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: AcfOI+CPHvFNyDoXEdyQYQAX8sYbNQ== In-Reply-To: <20070724182236.GB18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:070724:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::5/9RpanloVLxjzct:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001L0+ X-MDRemoteIP: 130.129.22.178 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:54:41 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 However, I can avoid using the rogue IPv6 RAs, but I've no way to configure IPv4 if DHCP is not working, so I prefer IPv6 problem vs. DHCP failure. Regards, Jordi > De: Tim Chown > Responder a: > Fecha: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:22:36 +0100 > Para: IPv6 Operations > Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP > > On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 12:45:10PM -0500, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >> Fully agree. >> >> I was absolutely unable to get DHCP working during more than two hours >> yesterday afternoon, which is unacceptable in my opinion. >> >> However I was able to use IPv6, manually configuring my own IPv6 DNS >> resolver from my home network. > > Well I think a number of people have put a lot of work in to avoid > open IPv4 recursive DNS servers... > >> It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more >> parameters available in the RA. >> >> And by the way, unfortunately the DHCP issues are very very very very >> frequent in many networks, not sure if its a protocol/design issue or just >> not so good DHCP implementations, but it is the reality. > > As Itojun has spotted, there are rogue IPv6 RAs on the network, so IPv6 > is not necessarily any better for you in this type of network. > > Tim > ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 15:47:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDQLr-00087A-UE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:47:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDQLq-0001Ot-N3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 15:47:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDQKV-000Fvt-9y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:45:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.233.162.235] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDQKJ-000Fv8-B8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:45:53 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s1so1547339nze for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-disposition:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:sender; b=qwYw3mObAy68kzg/8x9mHJu/n0fTlvx7B7Wk7C8UH5hReR6/TbMAxU+NChR7whMDo0GKW8BIE/Az0+Ihti4rB01ofWddDgVmjYS1Jcwtj9Rf1lP7//QMt2Qhl8J5xdBe4hJZBnVd1HljTRNA518UBY4ny/CBymVQJQQBlDEzFb4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-disposition:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:sender; b=hJQ+NI7n/Dcflmnlk7+Kva7wtjrjODOMXfnWwZl48ttOhxsN/NX7gNOwOvvUj19ZSO/e9OUUNH0YMQjOxSaHykyajIAzDWqCxKKoTkFHymt8VeJCpWmAllCWZGJFO+kinO0Y0Ex/7o6EKxUIoYJ7wNt01dTG5XyWsL0kQYOaQCQ= Received: by 10.141.108.21 with SMTP id k21mr1396684rvm.1185306345744; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.96.253? ( [130.129.96.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k5sm14327894rvb.2007.07.24.12.45.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:45:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Julien Laganier To: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: SECDIR review of draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:45:41 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 Cc: secdir@mit.edu, v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req@tools.ietf.org, v6ops , Ron Bonica References: <5A54917B-4B25-47F5-91D8-2E9BD7B34D9E@cisco.com> <200707131138.14967.julien.IETF@laposte.net> <32BEC959-6F90-4511-AB85-4C0C843B96B0@inetcore.com> In-Reply-To: <32BEC959-6F90-4511-AB85-4C0C843B96B0@inetcore.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707242145.41580.julien.IETF@laposte.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9cc83ac38bbbabacbf00f656311dd8d8 Hi Ruri, On Monday 23 July 2007, Ruri Hiromi wrote: > Hello, > > SECDIR and Shunsuke Suzuki pointed out that we did > not sufficiently describe security influence this > requirement might be brought. > > For this issue, I would like to put these words in > the section 3 (security consideration part). Please > check this, all of you. Thanks for advance. It's good to see that you want to expand the sec-cons section. Overall, I think the text is too unclear, or is mixing different aspects together that will make it hard to make sure a specific protocol satisfies the security requirements put forth below. I think the sec-cons section should have two parts: 1) a list of threats introduced by new address selection mechanisms (what an attacker could do), and 2) a list of recommendation on which security mechanisms (e.g. entity authentication, message authentication, confidentiality protection) should be applied to counter these attacks. Detailed comments are inlined in your text below: > -------------------- > There are some security incidents when combining > these requirements described in Section 2 into a > protocol. Particulars are listed in the below. I think the above text should clarify what is listed below. I am confused as to what the list of items below is. It seems it is mixing threats with solution/requirements to block the corresponding attacks. These should be listed separately, IMHO. > a. keep data confident and having data protected > for avoidance of Denial Service Attack at node or > network caused by unsafe and tampered data. I actually think that confidentiality and integrity protection should be treated separately since there are cases in which the data is not confidential and thus it makes no sense to protect confidentiality. In that particular case it would be good to spell out why an address selection protocol exchanges would need to be confidentiality protected since it is not obvious (at least to me). I have the impression that, depending on the protocol and the threat model it might or might not be needed. For example, if the protocol is just used to broadcast the same address selection directives/policies from a central server to all nodes of the domain, I am not sure there need to be confidentiality protection. On the other hand, if the protocol is used to let a node of the domain query a server about best address selection outcome to reach a particular destination, then confidentiality protection could be used to protects from some attacks, e.g. where an attacker could collect a list of destinations with which the node communicates with. Then, w.r.t. the mentioned "Denial Service Attack", it should be clarified what the attack actually is, e.g. what's the asset being attacked, how is it being attacked, etc. > b. detect a certified information resource(s) and > keep communication with confidential information > resource(s). This is for avoidance of hijacking or > tapping from unsafe node. When you mean detect, do you mean discovery? If you mean discovery, then the requirements on a secure discovery mechanisms should be spelled out -- i.e. is it simply avoiding a rogue resource to be discovered, and does it also include protection against an attacker denying discovery of that resource? I also have the same concerns than for item a) above, i.e. certification and confidentiality protection should be decoupled. Also as above, it should be clarified how the attack occurs, i.e. how an address selection protocol could lead to hijacking or tapping. > c. keep network availability at a estimated level. > This is for avoidance of Denial of Service Attack > for network resources. Ditto (What's the attack, what's the asset, etc.) > d. keep service availability > in a specific node at an estimated level. This is > for Avoidance of Denial of Service Attack for node/ > computer resources. Ditto. > e. keep an estimated administrative, controlled > level in the whole network. This is for avoidance of > intrusion of security boundary caused by malicious > use of multiprefix environment. This is also for > avoidance of leakage of some information from > central controller. I don't understand what the first sentence means. Regarding what's being avoided, same comment as before, how would the attack be realized, what are the assets, etc. > All the way listed below should be well-considered > for the protection from security threats. There is > no necessity to comply with all items at same time, > and it will be accepted if one or more spec will > come to apply the other spec. What does the last sentence mean? Do you mean that it is possible to have multiple specifications where one specification defines the main address selection protocol, and others specifications defines mechanisms used to protect the main protocol against different threats? > The network operational spec will be considered and > described as what and how it works for the network > security. This I'm not sure I understand either... > It is also preferable to refer and use existing > technologies. Right. > A. consideration of use of necessity > for digitally-signed or cryptographic message In the above, and what follows (i.e. items A-H) I'm assuming that "consideration of use of necessity for" means "considerations on the necessity to use". Is that right? If yes that should be replaced. Also, do you mean Message Authentication Code (MAC) instead of "cryptographic message" ? > B. consideration of use of necessity for confidence > of data source s/confidence/confidentiality Also here do you mean confidentiality protection of the data exchanged? Or of the source? If the latter what does that mean? You mean the source address? > C. consideration of use of necessity for > authentication Are you referring to entity authentication (a.k.a entity identification) or message authentication (a.k.a message integrity protection) ? > D. consideration of use of necessity for validation > mechanism for both of nodes and messages What kind of validation mechanism are referring to? Is that message integrity protection? > E. consideration of use of necessity for avoidance > mechanism of data conflict I do not understand that. Can you clarify? > F. consideration of use of necessity for > appropriate filtering method at domain boundaries Ok. > G. consideration of use of necessity for data > independence method at node or an interface. I do not understand that. Can you clarify? > H. consideration of use of necessity for > information control mechanism at server if a node > gets information from outside of its network domain. Here I assume you mean access control to the service providing address selection, is that right? > Here is a list for estimation of the impact to > security incidents that the requirements in this > document may interfere. I don't really understand what is being listed. I am not going to comments on what follows. I recommend rewriting the text as suggested in my overall comment with 1) list of threats and 2) countermeasures to the threats. Hope that helps. Best, --julien > 2-1: Effectiveness will have no impact to security > issues > > 2-2: Timing will have no impact to security issues > > 2-3: Dynamic update has a possibility if it is > maliciously used to lead high load average for > network and machine resources. This may become a > Denial of Service attack. Safe protocol should be > used. > > 2-4: Node-Specific behavior has a possibility to > take attacks to a specific node. Authorization and > validation will protect this. > > 2-5: Application specific behavior will have no > impact to security issues > > 2-6: Multiple interfaces has a possibility to take > denial of service to machine resources. It also has > a possibility of becoming a steppingstone beyond > security boundary. It is necessary to have a > filtering mechanism at domain boundary and > independence between interfaces. It is desirable to > have some protection by a protocol or operation. > > 2-7: Central control mechanism has a possibility to > take session hijack attacks if the central > controller is unsafe and gives invalid information > to nodes. Information should be managed. Protocol > should have a mechanism for validation, confidence, > authentication, authorization. > > 2-8: Next-hop selection has a possibility to take > denial of service due to a conflict between routing > system and policy table. If a routing system has own > security mechanism, it is necessary to cooperate > with it, not interfere the mechanism. > -------------------- > > On 2007/07/13, at 18:38, Julien Laganier wrote: > > I have reviewed this document as part of the > > security directorate's ongoing effort to review > > all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. > > These comments were written primarily for the > > benefit of the security area directors. Document > > editors and WG chairs should treat these comments > > just like any other last call comments. > > > > Background: In multi-prefix environments it is > > possible for an IPv6 node to have multiple IPv6 > > addresses available. There is thus a need to > > select appropriate source and destination > > addresses when initiating communication. RFC3484 > > defines default address selection for IPv6. > > Another v6ops draft > > [I-D.ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps] points to some > > situations in which RFC3484 leads to problems, > > hence the desire to introduce new selection > > mechanisms overcoming those. This document > > discusses requirements for such mechanisms. > > > > Security Review: While I think this is useful > > work, I am concerned that security wasn't made a > > requirement in itself and is instead just touched > > upon in the security considerations section. I > > also think that the security considerations > > section is not appropriate: it doesn't do a good > > job of analyzing threats that might be introduced > > by address selection mechanisms. It is > > insufficient to state that "incorrect address > > selection can lead to serious security problems, > > such as session hijack", this is too vague. > > Security threats should be listed exhaustively. As > > I already said, I believe that it should be made a > > requirement in itself that these threats are > > appropriately countered. Since it also seems that > > address selection mechanisms can be realized via > > protocols, it might also be good to go into what > > are the requirements on protection of these > > protocols (e.g. network filtering at the domain > > boundary, message authentication, etc.). > > > > Non-security nit: In section 2.5., "address > > selection API" could reference a recently approved > > individual submission > > [I-D.chakrabarti-ipv6-addrselect-api]. > > > > Hope that helps. Best regards, > > > > --julien > > ------------------------------- > Ruri Hiromi > hiromi@inetcore.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 16:48:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDRJE-0002NC-NE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:48:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDRJD-0002iN-Cz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:48:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDREn-000PbM-R6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:44:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [213.204.46.37] (helo=lemland.kurtis.pp.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDREd-000Paa-1z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:44:04 +0000 Received: from [130.129.21.232] (dhcp-15e8.ietf69.org [130.129.21.232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by lemland.kurtis.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F3C78C97; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:43:56 +0300 (EEST) In-Reply-To: <46A64E2A.9070005@tm.uka.de> References: <46A64E2A.9070005@tm.uka.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , IPv6 Operations , 69attendees@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:43:45 +0200 To: Roland Bless X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On 24 jul 2007, at 21.08, Roland Bless wrote: > >> It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more >> parameters available in the RA. > > Yes, but host implementations must also be enable to make use > of such features... It would be even better if there was even content I could access with or without those features... - kurtis - From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:04:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSUa-00043s-OV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:04:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSUa-00047N-8x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:04:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSRv-0009Or-DL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:01:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.83] (helo=levanto.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSRk-0009Me-2O for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:01:41 +0000 Received: from 219-90-136-159.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.136.159] helo=mail.nosense.org) by levanto.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSRa-0002hH-C5; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:31:26 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 872C5FC81; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:31:24 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:31:24 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-Id: <20070725073124.6b3fdc4b.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070723203122.171F7233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <7844C0A2-2FEA-48B0-9A83-0D376FE41BC8@apple.com> <20070723203122.171F7233CB@coconut.itojun.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 05:31:22 +0900 (JST) itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) wrote: > > On Jul 23, 2007, at 14:36, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > > > > > otherwise your cellphone that have roamed into your home network, > > > and/or TiVo device, cannot be used from the outside. > > > > Alas, my cellphone provider isn't particularly interested in letting > > my phone make and receive SIP calls over my home 802.11 wireless > > network routed to the Internet. I fear you're pointing out a > > *feature*, not a bug. > > well, your cellphone network provider may not, but nokia have > already shipping phones with SIP and IPv6: E61 and those series. > any comments from ericsson? :-) > These Nokia models caused a bit of a buying spree where I work (a smaller SP), with one of the main reasons being the Wifi/SIP capabilities. The MD (one of the owners) has made his Wifi key at home the same as the one in his area of the office, so moving between those Wifi points is seemless for VoIP. Fortunately the organisation has followed a host based firewall and application based authentication model, so doing this isn't as much of a problem as if they'd followed the hard shell, gooey centre firewall model. I also found it a bit interesting that the host based firewalling / application authentication model had been followed without it seeming to be much of a conscious decision by the people who where there before I started. Possibly because as the host/application based tools were available when it was necessary to implement host/applicatiion security, it then inherently became the obvious and better way to do it. Assuming an appropriate level of security measures (e.g. matching Wifi keys), being able to move between home and work networks easily with something such as a Wifi/SIP enabled cell/mobile phone is something that I think is important that we don't inhibit with any recommended implementation models on CPE and stateful firewalls. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:12:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSbz-00010e-7y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:12:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSby-0004I1-Vc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:12:11 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSbI-000AA9-RA for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:11:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSb7-000A9Z-K6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:11:23 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 57B3B233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:11:14 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:58:55 -0500" <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:11:14 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 i'll try to summarize what i know of about handling rogue RAs. - L2 switch solution: filter rogue RAs in the switches, just like filter rogue DHCPv4. you can detect potential RA sources by MLD joins to ff02::2 (all-routers link local multicast addr). CONS: you cannot protect victims within the same wireless base station, for instance. - end node host firewall solution: at every node, look at the content of RAs and reject them if they advertise prefixes like fec0:0:0:xxxx::/64. CONS: not widely deployable, can filter false positives - KAME rafixd: shoot down rogue RAs by announcing against those rogue RAs with 0 prefix/router lifetime PROS: easy to deploy, maybe we should ship it with *BSD CONS: need to take down the source of rogue RA anyways using DHCPv6 is NOT a soultion, as you can see rogue DHCPv6 server/ relay agent just like rogue RAs. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:16:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSfs-0004QN-SS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:16:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSfs-0004MJ-CH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:16:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSfD-000AWl-2n for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:15:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSf1-000AV2-U6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:15:25 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id A5771233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:15:18 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:41:05 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724221518.A5771233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:15:18 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 > > as i mentioned before, i do not have any kind of firewall in my home. > > Neither do I (and there doesn't seem to be one between the IETF > network and the rest of the world, either) but that's not really the > point, apparently, we now have consensus that a firewall is needed > for residential use but these people want to do peer-to-peer and run > servers so we need the hole punching. > > If you can formulate an argument powerful enough to convince the rest > of the world that firewalls aren't needed, this would be the moment > to do it... > > http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2007-1338 nah, again, illusion of security based on blocking traffic... i can help people secure their OS in a serious manner. especially those which are based on BSD IPv4/v6. hello Steve! (no, not Deering, i'm waiting for Jobs) http://www.openbsd.org/papers/asiabsdcon07-network_randomness/ http://www.openbsd.org/papers/ven05-deraadt/ itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:19:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSjI-00063V-39 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:19:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDSjH-0004PH-R8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:19:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSiX-000ArS-K0 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:18:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDSiJ-000AqL-28 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:18:48 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3D5C0233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:18:42 +0900 (JST) To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:39:10 +0200" <46A6474E.3080302@gmail.com> References: <46A6474E.3080302@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724221842.3D5C0233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:18:42 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 > > with "global unicast" basically i assume "global reachability". > > I think we discovered during the original ULA discussion > that global scope and global uniqueness do not imply > global reachability. We have no way to express VPN style > reachability using scopes. as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your organization (like IBM) - and pretend that you are inside your organization network there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:44:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDT7j-0006jn-2r for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:44:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDT7i-0004wQ-QC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:44:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDT6U-000D8c-9Q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:43:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDT6J-000D6f-7X for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:43:36 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6OMhQ0n050082 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:43:27 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:43:28 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A6474E.3080302@gmail.com> <20070724221842.3D5C0233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724221842.3D5C0233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:43:28 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> with "global unicast" basically i assume "global reachability". >> I think we discovered during the original ULA discussion >> that global scope and global uniqueness do not imply >> global reachability. We have no way to express VPN style >> reachability using scopes. > > as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to > - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your > organization (like IBM) > - and pretend that you are inside your organization network > > there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. > you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the > IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess > it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. Please think about a case like you wanna use the Internet at home and at the same time the enterprise network via VPN connection. The address you get from the latter network is IPv6 global address but its scope is limited to the enterprise network. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 18:55:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTHi-0006VP-AM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:55:18 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTHi-000556-1b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:55:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTGU-000DxY-Sw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:54:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTGK-000Dww-78 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:53:57 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1F49B233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:53:51 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:43:28 +0900" <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> References: <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:53:51 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 > > as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to > > - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your > > organization (like IBM) > > - and pretend that you are inside your organization network > > > > there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. > > you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the > > IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess > > it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. > > Please think about a case like you wanna use the Internet at home and at > the same time the enterprise network via VPN connection. > The address you get from the latter network is IPv6 global address but > its scope is limited to the enterprise network. so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:02:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTOw-0002a1-PY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTOw-0005Bg-Ey for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTO8-000Ebd-8w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:01:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTNp-000EZ9-1j for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:01:42 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6OMxWq0073711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:59:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:01:22 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On 24-jul-2007, at 17:11, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > i'll try to summarize what i know of about handling rogue RAs. [...] Another option would be for hosts to do something similar to neighbor unreachability detection for their default gateway. One thing that annoys me to no end is that if router X sends out prefix A::/64 and router Y sends out B::/64, then node 1 will happily configure addresses A::1 and B::1, and then send out packets with source address A::1 over router Y. This is really a bad thing for efforts like shim6. So trying to use the router that gave you the prefix for the source address you're using is a good start. The next one would be to avoid routers that announce obviously tunneled reachability such as 6to4 or Teredo. Actually detecting whether a default gateway works and then switching to another would be more difficult, but that should help against rogue RAs and also (if/when a gateway address through DHCPv6 becomes possible) rogue or misconfigured DHCPv6 in most typical cases, although of course a careful attacker could deliver the packets after inspecting/modifying them, but we have IPsec/SEND against that, if you care enough to defeat an attacker that cares enough to do that you'll go through the effort of making those work. And it will detect and repair a class of failures that is currently fatal. Best thing, all of this can be done in implementations without the need to create or change protocols. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:02:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTP4-0002aM-5u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTP3-0005Bn-Rv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTNy-000Eat-E7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:01:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTNn-000EYo-Ev for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:01:40 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6ON1VNA050238 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:01:32 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A684CD.8090103@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:01:33 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <2677351C-7049-4D1F-BFEA-669722AC567B@inetcore.com> <20070724165848.A5355233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724165848.A5355233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:01:32 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> I understood your opinion in one sense, but there might have been >> problematic cases with reality. >> >> some part are same as Brian, and we has been tried to write in the >> Problem statement >> >> - Currently we already have coexistence of VPN access and Global >> Internet Access in a site > > as i respnoded to Brian this is a non-issue. I replied about this point in another email. > >> - demands for controlling prefixes exists in some cases > > this has to be done sorely with routing table using ip6_dst, nothing > else. if you use ip6_src for controlling routing, you will go into > paradise of "policy routing" that is, basicaly, a pitfall towards hell. I think you've already mentioned the benefit of policy routing, haven't you ? As far as the source address is used for some reasons, such as routing and access control, I believe there should be demand for control the source address to be chosen. >> - demands for controlling v4-v6 preference > > maybe, but what would you need more than "IPv6 then IPv4"? At least, I know there is a motivation for smooth transition to IPv6, such as, IPv4 only -> IPv4 and IPv6 with lower preference -> IPv4 and IPv6 with higher preference -> IPv6 only. Another case may be a network administrator knows that the quality of IPv6 connectivity is clearly worse than that of IPv4 because of tunneling or something. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:09:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTVF-0006xW-Na for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:09:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTVF-0005Ho-Ds for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:09:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTTK-000F61-Mb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:07:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTT7-000F4I-EB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:07:10 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5AE6C233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:07:04 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:01:22 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:07:04 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 > On 24-jul-2007, at 17:11, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > > i'll try to summarize what i know of about handling rogue RAs. > > [...] > > Another option would be for hosts to do something similar to neighbor > unreachability detection for their default gateway. > > One thing that annoys me to no end is that if router X sends out > prefix A::/64 and router Y sends out B::/64, then node 1 will happily > configure addresses A::1 and B::1, and then send out packets with > source address A::1 over router Y. This is really a bad thing for > efforts like shim6. first of all, the above configuration violates RFC. all routers has to be configured with consistent RA parameters iirc. i know it is not practiced in reality. however, ICMPv6 redirect should take care of it if there's any issue with that. anything wrong with redirects, other than getting (potentially tons of) /128 routes? also, "RAs with more specific route" (RFC4191) may help you assuming router Y is not a rogue router. > So trying to use the router that gave you the prefix for the source > address you're using is a good start. The next one would be to avoid > routers that announce obviously tunneled reachability such as 6to4 or > Teredo. we've been there with KAME, and we conclued it is a bad idea to tie prefixes/source address selection to routers/RAs. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:12:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTYf-0000N2-Bq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:12:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTYf-0005NF-0s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:12:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTYF-000Fbs-SJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:12:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTY5-000Faj-5m for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:12:18 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 311EF233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:12:12 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:01:33 +0900" <46A684CD.8090103@nttv6.net> References: <46A684CD.8090103@nttv6.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724231212.311EF233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:12:12 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 > >> - demands for controlling prefixes exists in some cases > > > > this has to be done sorely with routing table using ip6_dst, nothing > > else. if you use ip6_src for controlling routing, you will go into > > paradise of "policy routing" that is, basicaly, a pitfall towards hell. > > I think you've already mentioned the benefit of policy routing, haven't > you ? As far as the source address is used for some reasons, such as > routing and access control, I believe there should be demand for control > the source address to be chosen. just as a last resort, when things like uRPF gets in your way. i guess i do not need to talk about what "policy routing" is, but here goes. without policy routing, the routing table would be a mapping between 2^128 ip6_dst to 2^128 gateways or neighbors. with policy routing, the mapping would be from (2^128 ip6_dst) x (2^128 ip6_src) to 2^128 gateways or neighbors. normally people describe it by having 2 mapping tables, and you can get conflicting results due to those 2 tables. it is a never-ending maze. > > maybe, but what would you need more than "IPv6 then IPv4"? > > At least, I know there is a motivation for smooth transition > to IPv6, such as, > IPv4 only > -> IPv4 and IPv6 with lower preference > -> IPv4 and IPv6 with higher preference > -> IPv6 only. you are assuming that you are watching everything over from the sky, high above, like god. that is not how we made largely-distributed system, the Internet, work. > Another case may be a network administrator knows that the > quality of IPv6 connectivity is clearly worse than that of > IPv4 because of tunneling or something. you just have to switch to better IPv6 provider. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:19:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTfS-0005ZL-Kn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:19:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTfS-0005Wz-BA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:19:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTeL-000GFu-Ov for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:18:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTeA-000GDV-Tw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:18:36 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6ONIRRE050320 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:18:27 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A688C5.8040907@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:18:29 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:18:28 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to >>> - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your >>> organization (like IBM) >>> - and pretend that you are inside your organization network >>> >>> there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. >>> you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the >>> IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess >>> it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. >> Please think about a case like you wanna use the Internet at home and at >> the same time the enterprise network via VPN connection. >> The address you get from the latter network is IPv6 global address but >> its scope is limited to the enterprise network. > > so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? External connectivity isn't necessarily available for VPN users, because VPN connection is usually for retrieving resources in enterprise network like e-mail and web pages. Even if it's available, you may not love to use degraded-quality connectivity instead of not degraded one. > how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? We are told to use home-made search engine, instead of Google ;) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:20:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTgT-0005jM-Fh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTgT-0005YZ-58 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTfz-000GR7-MY for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:20:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.172] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTfk-000GPV-OI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:20:18 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so258126uge for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HrkvhAr0ZDvSASPyeujUJt3dw6jJ3eYokXZDQvQFNy6V4F4imqBAOIfGjK8D01kyrm+tJo2joZ+C6iP+4UV6zOs5nX2pFAqvQxrYiNE/AAyUWXl0yJdF2sRxXepEmCuUN9bngPrnWbtVQmScBQdAFHdvqu/vTcQ/v5DkZpfU0ys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aOLBTC4H6ABcKn7nnememhl68azcE9Xvro9P+FxdxYejIp0hJmvUMsTNcfFHrnwfWo91cULALPHHKbg41YEITJE4FuWs5afw6lB8BKWVtT5+c9w+qaDj7ByglcBh3A0aU9tWBwRKXP42X1xkt0EWjGUze+fc2ei5+S+JCFjIyBk= Received: by 10.86.77.5 with SMTP id z5mr3939fga.1185319205984; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.83.253? ( [130.129.83.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j9sm147261mue.2007.07.24.16.20.02 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:20:02 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 2007-07-25 00:53, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to >>> - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your >>> organization (like IBM) >>> - and pretend that you are inside your organization network >>> >>> there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. >>> you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the >>> IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess >>> it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. >> Please think about a case like you wanna use the Internet at home and at >> the same time the enterprise network via VPN connection. >> The address you get from the latter network is IPv6 global address but >> its scope is limited to the enterprise network. > > so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? > how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? Today, I fear it is often NATted. Obviously that is not the future. I expect to see many enterprises use ULA for internal traffic and PA or PI for Google. But I was actually thinking about VPNs between business partners, which create "fingers" of reachability for small subsets of address space that are shared by pairs of enterprises. This can get very complex when many companies have mutual business relationships. I can't even think how to draw it in ASCII art. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:31:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTqc-0004dB-Gf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:31:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTqc-0005im-72 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:31:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTph-000Hcj-Tk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:30:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTpW-000HaK-Vi for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:30:20 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9173E233D0; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:30:13 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:18:29 +0900" <46A688C5.8040907@nttv6.net> References: <46A688C5.8040907@nttv6.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724233013.9173E233D0@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:30:13 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 > > so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? > > External connectivity isn't necessarily available for VPN users, > because VPN connection is usually for retrieving resources in > enterprise network like e-mail and web pages. > Even if it's available, you may not love to use degraded-quality > connectivity instead of not degraded one. but the above problem is not specific to VPN, right? - you have some connectivity from your laptop - either directly from your laptop or via some router(s) - some connectivity is restricted compared to another, in some way such as (a) bandwidth (b) price (c) NATed (d) slow (e) inefficient path due to tunnelling (f) limited reachability (g) you name it. it really is a policy routing problem. you have to solve it WITHOUT global knowledge. the way you (and probably other guys) are proposing with "distribution of policy table" is, using god's point-of-view. and after more than 10 years of policy routing researches, there's not a single viable solution, as far as i know. > > how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? > > We are told to use home-made search engine, instead of Google ;) so that you cannot find offensive stuff or they can keep track of keywords. ok, i hope you are happy with that environment :-) itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:39:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTyq-0002gH-3O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:39:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDTyp-0005ta-RH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:39:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTy3-000Jnn-Ry for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:39:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDTxs-000Jmx-US for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:38:58 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 28404233D0; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:38:52 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 01:20:02 +0200" <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> References: <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070724233852.28404233D0@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:38:52 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 > > so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? > > how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? > > Today, I fear it is often NATted. Obviously that is not the future. and fortunately and/or unfortunately, recent protocols do not have problem with the presense of NAT, such as Skype :-P > I expect to see many enterprises use ULA for internal traffic > and PA or PI for Google. But I was actually thinking about VPNs between > business partners, which create "fingers" of reachability for small > subsets of address space that are shared by pairs of enterprises. > This can get very complex when many companies have mutual business > relationships. I can't even think how to draw it in ASCII art. i wonder if the complexity and adminstration costs pays off... itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 19:59:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUHn-0007L3-NZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:59:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUHm-0006Ap-Dm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:59:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUEl-000LSn-EQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:56:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUEZ-000LRg-My for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:56:14 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6ONu3Wh050601 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:56:04 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A69195.3050006@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:56:05 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A684CD.8090103@nttv6.net> <20070724231212.311EF233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724231212.311EF233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:56:04 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 >>> maybe, but what would you need more than "IPv6 then IPv4"? >> At least, I know there is a motivation for smooth transition >> to IPv6, such as, >> IPv4 only >> -> IPv4 and IPv6 with lower preference >> -> IPv4 and IPv6 with higher preference >> -> IPv6 only. > > you are assuming that you are watching everything over from the sky, > high above, like god. that is not how we made largely-distributed > system, the Internet, work. I guess you misunderstood what I mean ? I'm not looking down from the sky. I'm looking at a small part at the edge of the Internet. A small company want to move to ipv6 and want to minimize troubles and risks. Then they want to transition to IPv6 in the way I described above. >> Another case may be a network administrator knows that the >> quality of IPv6 connectivity is clearly worse than that of >> IPv4 because of tunneling or something. > > you just have to switch to better IPv6 provider. So, give me money please ;) I guess not so many company can have good-quality ipv6 connectibity from the start. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:03:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDULu-0001x5-Ly for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:03:42 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDULu-0006GH-AN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:03:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUL8-000MEm-Oz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:02:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUKq-000MAx-I9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:02:48 +0000 Received: from [130.129.18.177] (dhcp-12b1.ietf69.org [130.129.18.177]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6P00YQt075023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:00:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4D942919-D97E-4D9D-9A13-9251E10CF0A4@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:27 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 On 24-jul-2007, at 18:07, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> One thing that annoys me to no end is that if router X sends out >> prefix A::/64 and router Y sends out B::/64, then node 1 will happily >> configure addresses A::1 and B::1, and then send out packets with >> source address A::1 over router Y. This is really a bad thing for >> efforts like shim6. > first of all, the above configuration violates RFC. all routers has > to be configured with consistent RA parameters iirc. i know it is > not > practiced in reality. Then we fix this in a future version of the document. Obviously this is an unworkable requirement in practice, and I don't see why it should be needed anyway. > however, ICMPv6 redirect should take care of it if there's any issue > with that. anything wrong with redirects, other than getting > (potentially tons of) /128 routes? Redirect is based on destination address, I'm talking about the source address. The number of source prefixes is so low and known by the host anyway that having router feedback for this is not necessary, the host can do this itself without help if implementing this is desired. > also, "RAs with more specific route" (RFC4191) may help you assuming > router Y is not a rogue router. That's again for the destination address. >> So trying to use the router that gave you the prefix for the source >> address you're using is a good start. The next one would be to avoid >> routers that announce obviously tunneled reachability such as 6to4 or >> Teredo. > we've been there with KAME, and we conclued it is a bad idea to > tie prefixes/source address selection to routers/RAs. What were the problems or disadvantages of doing that? Iljitsch From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:09:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDURT-0007Cg-SJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:09:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDURT-0006MT-I2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:09:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUPa-000MyT-32 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:07:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUPN-000Mwb-M1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:07:23 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 88622233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:07:16 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:56:05 +0900" <46A69195.3050006@nttv6.net> References: <46A69195.3050006@nttv6.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070725000716.88622233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:07:16 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b > > you are assuming that you are watching everything over from the sky, > > high above, like god. that is not how we made largely-distributed > > system, the Internet, work. > > I guess you misunderstood what I mean ? > I'm not looking down from the sky. > > I'm looking at a small part at the edge of the Internet. > A small company want to move to ipv6 and want to minimize > troubles and risks. Then they want to transition to IPv6 > in the way I described above. of course you are watching over from the sky. you are sure that for the enterprise source address X is better to reach destination A, and Y is beter for B. that is a knowledge (or kludge) about the entire internet, which can only be obtained from the god's point of view. to give you an idea: the situation changes over time by BGP peering status and alike, and you have no real way to catch up other than to update your policy table master config file. scary and high admin cost unless you do not get paid from your organization. > > you just have to switch to better IPv6 provider. > > So, give me money please ;) so you are spending more money on bad management technology and management labor costs, rather than to spend money for decent IPv6 connectivity services with less expensive management costs. hmm. > I guess not so many company can have good-quality ipv6 > connectibity from the start. we are both from Japan, and we have NTT and IIJ at least! wait a minute, your domain name seems to be nttv6.net... itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:12:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUUs-0000DY-7E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:12:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUUr-0006QH-Uc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:12:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUUL-000NWz-L7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:12:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUUA-000NW5-I5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:12:19 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1961ACB3B79 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 031F429C003 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a673fbb000000b34-a6-46a6955dc54b Received: from [17.151.80.9] (unknown [17.151.80.9]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id C8772304010 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070724221842.3D5C0233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <46A6474E.3080302@gmail.com> <20070724221842.3D5C0233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <60F08BD7-E89A-4963-8698-337708FEFB74@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:12:11 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f On Jul 24, 2007, at 17:18, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess it would be > within 17.0.0.0/8. When Internet Connect.app establishes L2TP/IPsec VPN connections, it inserts a bunch of host routes to all the private remote subnets, any or all of which may have RFC 1918 addressed subnets or globally addressed subnets, e.g. Apple uses all of 17/8, plus several other allocations, some of which are RFC 1918 subnets. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:15:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUX3-00019s-L7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:15:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUX3-0006To-9K for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:15:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUWS-000NmT-UL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUWH-000Nju-ES for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:14:31 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0D05F233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:14:24 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:02:27 -0500" <4D942919-D97E-4D9D-9A13-9251E10CF0A4@muada.com> References: <4D942919-D97E-4D9D-9A13-9251E10CF0A4@muada.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070725001424.0D05F233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:14:24 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 > > first of all, the above configuration violates RFC. all routers has > > to be configured with consistent RA parameters iirc. i know it is not > > practiced in reality. > > Then we fix this in a future version of the document. Obviously this > is an unworkable requirement in practice, and I don't see why it > should be needed anyway. it was about prefix lifetime if i remember correctly (for jinmei it is night time in Japan, but he will be here any moment). if two routers advertise different prefix lifetime, hosts will go crazy. > > however, ICMPv6 redirect should take care of it if there's any issue > > with that. anything wrong with redirects, other than getting > > (potentially tons of) /128 routes? > > Redirect is based on destination address, I'm talking about the > source address. The number of source prefixes is so low and known by > the host anyway that having router feedback for this is not > necessary, the host can do this itself without help if implementing > this is desired. ok, then you are in the maze of policy routing. see comments from me to arifumi@nttv6.net. > > also, "RAs with more specific route" (RFC4191) may help you assuming > > router Y is not a rogue router. > > That's again for the destination address. yup. > >> So trying to use the router that gave you the prefix for the source > >> address you're using is a good start. The next one would be to avoid > >> routers that announce obviously tunneled reachability such as 6to4 or > >> Teredo. > > > we've been there with KAME, and we conclued it is a bad idea to > > tie prefixes/source address selection to routers/RAs. > > What were the problems or disadvantages of doing that? the routers which issue RA, and the routers which terminate external links are not usually the same (unless you are in a home network where there's only single link). so you do not have clear knowledge about how to issue RA parameters. normally you only have 1 router on your link (which is not directly connected to the egress router), so you cannot have separate routers for separate prefixes. | | egress1 egress2 | | ==+=======+== | router | ==+== | router | ==+== | your host itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:21:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUdH-0005JJ-DD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:21:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUdG-0006ba-Rw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:21:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUcB-000OS2-Rn for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:20:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUbs-000OPb-Rb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:20:18 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9562DD02D4B for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 7C72929C00C for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a6f40bb000000b34-b3-46a6973c44b0 Received: from [17.151.80.9] (unknown [17.151.80.9]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 3DEA330400B for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <46A64E2A.9070005@tm.uka.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: cpe simple security and the opportunity cost of stateful packet filters Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:09 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 On Jul 24, 2007, at 15:43, Kurt Erik Lindqvist wrote: > On 24 jul 2007, at 21.08, Roland Bless wrote: >> [at some point, somebody wrote:] >>> >>> It will be really nice to make sure that we can progress with more >>> parameters available in the RA. >> >> Yes, but host implementations must also be enable to make use >> of such features... > > It would be even better if there was even content I could access > with or without those features... "If you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own." -- Wes "scoop" Nisker One of the concerns behind my original initiative to leave the *stateful* part of the IPv6 packet filter turned off by default in the AirPort Extreme 802.11n base station was my [apparently mistaken] judgment that the measurable benefits for network security it provided were heavily outweighed by the opportunity cost it posed by hindering the deployment of ad-hoc peer-to-peer applications where the vast majority of peers are expected to be at the end of the last mile in a residential deployment. P2P applications already very difficult for average Internet users to participate effectively in such networks due to the stateful filtering in IPv4/NAT gateways, and services like UPnP IGD and NAT- PMP don't repair all the damage. If these packet filters are allowed to become ubiquitous in IPv6, then my fear is that the most likely applications that would otherwise be able to deliver that content you'd like to access, with or without any whizzy new router advertisement parameters, will never be developed for IPv6 where they might be simple enough for average users to operate. All the user complexity created by IPv4/NAT stateful filters will have been duplicated in the IPv6 stateful filters. If we are not careful, IPv6 may be saddled with all the b0rkenneff that IPv4/NAT plagues us with today, without any measurable benefit beyond merely addressing the burdensomely high and rapidly increasing cost of public IP addresses. We are setting up a vicious circle. + Nobody will want to use IPv6 because there isn't any content worth accessing, while... + Nobody will develop content worth accessing because IPv6 is more difficult to use than IPv4, and in fact, is also broken fundamentally in ways that IPv4/NAT isn't, while... + Nobody will have any incentive to make IPv6 any easier to use because users aren't interested in any of the content available exclusively via IPv6, while... [lather, rinse, repeat] If this happens, mark my words: IPv6 will wither and die-- and it will not be an honorable death, as IPv4/NAT will be wielding the sword that cuts it down. Those among us who really, really despise NAT might do well to bear in mind all the ways we could be undermining our own objectives by failing to consider how we might be preventing IPv6 from being usable by new applications in ways that IPv4/NAT will never be able to match. Still working on polishing my philosophy essay. Sigh. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 20:41:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUw6-00024p-7q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:41:06 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDUw5-00075j-Qc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:41:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUub-0000F1-6l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:39:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDUuO-0000EF-Oi for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:39:27 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7CB3F233CB; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:39:19 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: cpe simple security and the opportunity cost of stateful packet filters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:20:09 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070725003919.7CB3F233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:39:19 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 > P2P applications already very difficult for average Internet users to > participate effectively in such networks due to the stateful > filtering in IPv4/NAT gateways, and services like UPnP IGD and NAT- > PMP don't repair all the damage. If these packet filters are allowed > to become ubiquitous in IPv6, then my fear is that the most likely > applications that would otherwise be able to deliver that content > you'd like to access, with or without any whizzy new router > advertisement parameters, will never be developed for IPv6 where they > might be simple enough for average users to operate. All the user > complexity created by IPv4/NAT stateful filters will have been > duplicated in the IPv6 stateful filters. > If we are not careful, IPv6 may be saddled with all the b0rkenneff > that IPv4/NAT plagues us with today, without any measurable benefit > beyond merely addressing the burdensomely high and rapidly increasing > cost of public IP addresses. We are setting up a vicious circle. yup, you have some points. i'm very hopeful in the following way of thinking: - normal users do not really care what is underlying technology. in fact, famous Japanese magazine, Hanako, had "the Internet for newbies" feature without single mention of IPv4 address. - operators and implementers can reduce administration costs by using IPv6, because of vast amount of available address space, and because of this, fewer administration costs. of course, to achieve this, you need some knowledge to avoid unneeded admin costs people are paying with IPv4 and NAT. for instance, if you try to deploy all-IP cellphone network, you would need a gigantic NAT box that supports SIP NAT with failover/redundancy if you pick IPv4. if you pick IPv6, you do not need that. i have been trying to promote this idea here, maybe i should keep my mouth shut and charge money for my recipe ;-) - normal user do care about overall cost of operation and would like to have fewer support calls/cableguys come to home, so they would pick ipv6-based services with less costs, IF IT IS DESGINED WELL. and more importantly, - because the population with IPv6 connectivity will gradually increase, you can start small with your IPv6 service. you do not have to have giant load balancer like your IPv4 service today. you just need to prepare for growth in the near future. for instance, with IIJ IPv6 connectivity service (started 1999) all the support calls are diverted to small number of IIJ people if it contains the word "IPv6". the important thing is for call center people to be able to handle IPv6 questions, and divert it to appropriate people. am i being too optimistic? i guess not. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 24 23:49:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDXsE-0000Cq-SB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:49:18 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDXsD-0002Pq-I5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:49:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDXmo-000DSc-6V for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:43:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDXmc-000DRL-T9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:43:36 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6P3hPh2051913 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:43:26 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A6C6DF.5020006@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:43:27 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A69195.3050006@nttv6.net> <20070725000716.88622233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070725000716.88622233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:43:27 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> you are assuming that you are watching everything over from the sky, >>> high above, like god. that is not how we made largely-distributed >>> system, the Internet, work. >> I guess you misunderstood what I mean ? >> I'm not looking down from the sky. >> >> I'm looking at a small part at the edge of the Internet. >> A small company want to move to ipv6 and want to minimize >> troubles and risks. Then they want to transition to IPv6 >> in the way I described above. > > of course you are watching over from the sky. you are sure that > for the enterprise source address X is better to reach destination A, > and Y is beter for B. that is a knowledge (or kludge) about the > entire internet, which can only be obtained from the god's point of > view. > > to give you an idea: the situation changes over time by BGP peering > status and alike, and you have no real way to catch up other than > to update your policy table master config file. scary and high admin > cost unless you do not get paid from your organization. What I'm talking here is not about reachability or quality of connection. It's just about smooth transition from what we have today to what we will have tomorrow. One day transition may not be realistic, though. And it's about the unpredictable troubles including system failures and also reachability problem because of local mis-configuration or something like that rather than the Internet status. >>> you just have to switch to better IPv6 provider. >> So, give me money please ;) > > so you are spending more money on bad management technology and > management labor costs, rather than to spend money for decent IPv6 > connectivity services with less expensive management costs. > hmm. > >> I guess not so many company can have good-quality ipv6 >> connectibity from the start. > > we are both from Japan, and we have NTT and IIJ at least! > wait a minute, your domain name seems to be nttv6.net... We and many of people in this ML have good v6 connectivity, I hope. From now, we have to make every other people move onto v6 world, right ? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 00:36:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDYcH-0006JL-BW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:36:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDYcF-0003A9-UH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 00:36:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDYaO-000GVG-Hy for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 04:34:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDYaD-000GUV-L2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 04:34:51 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6P4YfLt052167 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:34:41 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A6D2E3.6050901@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:34:43 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on addr-select-sol References: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> In-Reply-To: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:34:42 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Thank you for your comment. This is the 1st comment I received on list for this draft :) Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote: > Hello, > > Been reviewing the draft, and I am a bit puzzled as to why the > implementability and compatibility with RFC3493 falls in the "other issues" > category. > > Most IPv6-enabled applications are currently relying on getaddrinfo then > connect/sendto APIs, or variants thereof. getaddrinfo() queries DNS or > whatever, and gives an ordered list of possible destination address, then > connect() or sendto() decide which source address to use to reach a given > destination. It might be worth noting that sendto() is non-blocking, so > essentially any exchange with the network has to be done in getaddrinfo(). > > Now, that still leaves a lot of room for doing lots of fancy and advanced > stuff in getaddrinfo(), along the DNS query. But I think it is worth looking > deeper at. I do think we should avoid deprecating RFC3493 unless there is > really a very very compelling reason to do so. Good point. I had no idea how to set-up a requirement item that covers "other issues". "compability with RFC3493" looks like a good requirement item. > I am a bit suspicious as to whether the "trial-and-error" approach can > actually work with these considerations in mind. IMO, trial-and-error approach can work with RFC3493. You may suppose that the kernel changes the source address of the existing connections, but it doesn't. The kernel just stores cache for successful/unworkable address selection and utilize it for the next address selection. Rather, I am suspicious about "question-and-answer" approach about this point. How can we implement that in getaddrinfo() without changing the APIs ? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 02:03:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDZxv-0002pO-Sc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:03:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDZxv-0004xA-I2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:03:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDZu6-0000fP-EF for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:59:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDZtu-0000ej-Du for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 05:59:17 +0000 Received: from jmb.local (unknown [IPv6:2001:200:1b1:1010:217:f2ff:fe26:34a0]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F7673021; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:59:06 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:59:04 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 At Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:07:04 +0900 (JST), itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) wrote: > > One thing that annoys me to no end is that if router X sends out > > prefix A::/64 and router Y sends out B::/64, then node 1 will happily > > configure addresses A::1 and B::1, and then send out packets with > > source address A::1 over router Y. This is really a bad thing for > > efforts like shim6. > > first of all, the above configuration violates RFC. all routers has > to be configured with consistent RA parameters iirc. (A very minor comment that is not related to the main point of this thread) This is not really correct: the specification allows router X to send out A::/64 (and only this one) and router Y to send out B::/64 (and only this one). See Section 6.2.7 of RFC2461: Note that it is not an error for different routers to advertise different sets of prefixes. [...] (This isn't going to be changed in 2461bis for that matter). JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From akyurekkhuj@cokecce.com Wed Jul 25 02:36:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDaU2-0000lS-Jr; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:36:30 -0400 Received: from [89.240.11.54] (helo=cokecce.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDaU0-0005lz-A9; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:36:30 -0400 Message-ID: <114101c7ced8$0a9d5790$ca368e23@akyurekkhuj> From: "reda anderson" To: "tad brooks" Cc: "waltraud butler" , "meryl mills" , "marisol" , "dominick ford" Subject: How is everything? 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Pray take bore a seat," said Mrs. Poyser, saw relieved a little by this c From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 03:23:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDbD4-0004zg-6N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:23:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDbD2-0006hy-RM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:23:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDb8Q-0005UD-RO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:18:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [129.242.5.252] (helo=mux2.uit.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDb8F-0005Tc-Nh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 07:18:09 +0000 Received: from shimmer.student.uit.no (shimmer.student.uit.no [129.242.80.34]) by mux2.uit.no (8.13.8/8.13.6/Mux) with ESMTP id l6P7HvUq059481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:17:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chandra.student.uit.no (chandra.student.uit.no [129.242.80.32]) by shimmer.student.uit.no (8.13.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l6P7HvWC019738; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:17:57 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:17:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Roger Jorgensen X-X-Sender: rogerj@chandra.student.uit.no To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Message-ID: References: <20070724230704.5AE6C233CB@coconut.itojun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: : ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 129.242.5.252 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> One thing that annoys me to no end is that if router X sends out >> prefix A::/64 and router Y sends out B::/64, then node 1 will happily >> configure addresses A::1 and B::1, and then send out packets with >> source address A::1 over router Y. This is really a bad thing for >> efforts like shim6. > > first of all, the above configuration violates RFC. all routers has > to be configured with consistent RA parameters iirc. i know it is not > practiced in reality. it happen quite easy on a network, just configure two devices that announce RA :) the host will pick up both and use one of them, havent seen a pattern on which one it choice tho. -- ------------------------------ Roger Jorgensen | - ROJO9-RIPE - RJ85P-NORID roger@jorgensen.no | - IPv6 is The Key! ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 10:47:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDi9P-0006JW-DG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:47:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDi9O-0000aB-1F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:47:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDi4G-000GNJ-D2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:42:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDi45-000GMF-G0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:42:19 +0000 Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6PEg7C5005487 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:42:07 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l6PEfqas031066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:41:55 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l6PEfqIn000788 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:41:52 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l6PEfoKS000787 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:41:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:41:50 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Message-ID: <20070725144150.GB32522@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> <20070724233852.28404233D0@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070724233852.28404233D0@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-Null-Tag: 362797644fbc0aceafb91378771ee90d X-Null-Tag: 0802ba530a5bade68adecc1b020a3b70 X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 08:38:52AM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > > so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? > > > how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? > > > > Today, I fear it is often NATted. Obviously that is not the future. > > and fortunately and/or unfortunately, recent protocols do not have > problem with the presense of NAT, such as Skype :-P Well, if everyone was behind NAT, and there were no public IP supernodes, Skype would presumably have more problems? Also, Skype would surely have been easier to develop originally without having to consider NAT traversal in the system architecture. > > I expect to see many enterprises use ULA for internal traffic > > and PA or PI for Google. But I was actually thinking about VPNs between > > business partners, which create "fingers" of reachability for small > > subsets of address space that are shared by pairs of enterprises. > > This can get very complex when many companies have mutual business > > relationships. I can't even think how to draw it in ASCII art. > > i wonder if the complexity and adminstration costs pays off... BTW if you want to make ASCII art (RFC diagrams :) easier to draw, I found Email Effects very good. -- Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 14:19:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDlSf-00023E-Ry for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:19:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDlSd-0000YC-RG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:19:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDlMt-0007Yk-9Y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:13:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDlMi-0007Xx-4t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:13:45 +0000 Received: from [130.129.20.201] (dhcp-14c9.ietf69.org [130.129.20.201]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8531029E1360 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:13:38 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Le 07-07-23 =E0 13:56, Brian E Carpenter a =E9crit : > > As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid > such a mechanism. I agree with Brian. There must be a way for enterprises to push a =20 RFC3484 policy to its nodes. I went into this discussion with a large enterprise customer who =20 wanted to carefully control how v6 will be deployed in an incremental =20= way. some of the enterprise sites would be v6 ready, others will be =20 v6 enabled but not so ready, etc... therefore, pushing different =20 RFC3484 policies depending on the sites is very useful in this =20 context. Policy #1 could be the default policy(prefer v6), policy #2 =20 would be prefer ipv4. It is also pretty useful when nodes are mobile =20= and move from sites to sites and then get the site network rfc3484 =20 policy while attaching to the network. It will also help applications developers since we are seeing =20 applications developers forcing v4 to prefer v6, disabling v6, etc... =20= if rfc3484 policy can be pushed to nodes, then these changes to =20 applications would be less useful, since the enterprise network =20 manager would be able to tell the nodes, (and then the applications) =20 what are the best version of IP to use on the attached network. Marc. > There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes > (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to > need multiple ISPs). > > Brian ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 14:54:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDm0c-0001Xm-Fe for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:54:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDm0c-0001eN-3N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:54:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDlzA-000AfM-5c for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:53:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDlyy-000Aeb-V4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:53:18 +0000 Received: from leon.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:df8:0:96:219:d2ff:fe07:5de5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4735967DE; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:53:11 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Arifumi Matsumoto , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Comments on addr-select-sol Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:53:02 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <200707241903.29623.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <46A6D2E3.6050901@nttv6.net> In-Reply-To: <46A6D2E3.6050901@nttv6.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707252153.03335.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Wednesday 25 July 2007 07:34:43 you wrote: > IMO, trial-and-error approach can work with RFC3493. > You may suppose that the kernel changes the source address of the > existing connections, but it doesn't. The kernel just stores cache > for successful/unworkable address selection and utilize it for the > next address selection. > > Rather, I am suspicious about "question-and-answer" approach about > this point. How can we implement that in getaddrinfo() without > changing the APIs ? Indeed, if an application does: getaddrinfo("2001:db8::1", "53", { 0, SOCK_DGRAM, 0, AI_NUMERICHOST }, ...) socket() connect() none of the function calls are allowed to block (UDP connect() cannot block= ,=20 numeric getaddrinfo() cannot block), so you cannot ask anything from the=20 network. So it is indeed doubtful whether the Q&A approach works. In fact, = I=20 suspect only the RFC3484-ish approach can work at all. As such, I'd much rather go for the approach put forward by Brian Carpenter= ,=20 which if I understand correctly, consists of extending RFC3484 so you can=20 deliver the policy tables at network configuration time. I might be wrong. But I think any approach will need to be prototyped befor= e=20 it's selected. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:30:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpNB-0004Hy-02 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:30:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpN9-0006An-LG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:30:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpIt-0002bf-QZ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:25:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpIi-0002ag-4g for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:25:54 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6PMNf59000611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:23:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Ruri Hiromi , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:25:36 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 On 24-jul-2007, at 10:10, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", Can't find a draft with that name... > - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. > network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair can go > out of the organization somehow. That ship has sailed. Even if you could, through some kind of herculian effort, make it so that only a single IPv6 address is available per host rather than 1 or more for 1 or more interfaces, there's going to be the issue of having both an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. I currently have a mail client that won't fall back to IPv4 if IPv6 doesn't work. That's not acceptable. > (a) if there's some issue like uRPF in some of your ISPs, the > egress > routers in your organization should implement source-based > routing to workaround it. When a host has selected addresses, other boxes can't overrule that. The best thing you can do is generate a quick unreachable so the host can retry with a different source/dest address combination. > (b) the whole idea of ULA/ULA-x should be killed at once. No it shouldn't. People want it, no reasonable counter arguments have been presented. > - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address > on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- > address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different > reachability or "scoping". You should have spoken up somewhere in the last century. This stuff is a done deal today, no point in turning back halfway and turning back completely is not possible at this point. > - so, there's no need for you to think about "distributing source > address selection policy". Deciding for other people what they don't need is extremely impolite. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:35:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpRj-0000j3-Kr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:35:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpRi-0006Gd-Dy for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:35:07 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpR1-000399-V5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:34:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpQq-00038Y-Us for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:34:18 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6PMWCXj000751 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:32:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Distributing, period, was: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:34:07 -0500 To: Marc Blanchet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On 25-jul-2007, at 13:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: >> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >> such a mechanism. > I agree with Brian. There must be a way for enterprises to push a > RFC3484 policy to its nodes. It occurs to me that we're trying to solve a subset of the full problem here. There is lots of site-wide stuff that may potentially be distributed. Stuffing those in DHCP and/or RAs is problematic because we essentially need to redo this every time a new piece of information is found that needs to be distributed, and because it would get too big. I don't think a nice, complex RFC 3848 table will necessarily fit into less than a kilobyte, which is the most you can possibly borrow from DHCP/RA. Once you have connectivity, downloading data of arbitrary size, providing information of an arbitrary nature, is trivial through well- known mechanisms such as HTTP. The only missing piece is the name/ address of a small set of servers that are initially queried for this information. And this is something that will fit in a DHCP or RA message. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:41:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpYG-0003gz-HU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:41:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpYF-0006OU-TM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:41:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpXC-0003dB-2n for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:40:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpX0-0003cY-FN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:40:40 +0000 Received: from [130.129.20.201] (dhcp-14c9.ietf69.org [130.129.20.201]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE11629E1360 for ; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <56951CD5-3E6C-4BC1-85BF-E4DBC102E163@viagenie.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: Distributing, period, was: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:40:34 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Le 07-07-25 =E0 17:34, Iljitsch van Beijnum a =E9crit : > On 25-jul-2007, at 13:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >>> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >>> such a mechanism. > >> I agree with Brian. There must be a way for enterprises to push a =20 >> RFC3484 policy to its nodes. > > It occurs to me that we're trying to solve a subset of the full =20 > problem here. There is lots of site-wide stuff that may potentially =20= > be distributed. Stuffing those in DHCP and/or RAs is problematic =20 > because we essentially need to redo this every time a new piece of =20 > information is found that needs to be distributed, and because it =20 > would get too big. I don't think a nice, complex RFC 3848 table =20 > will necessarily fit into less than a kilobyte, which is the most =20 > you can possibly borrow from DHCP/RA. > > Once you have connectivity, well, but the policy will enable you to have that connectivity. If =20 the policy the node currently have is wrong, then the node might not =20 reach the server you are talking about. > downloading data of arbitrary size, providing information of an =20 > arbitrary nature, is trivial through well-known mechanisms such as =20 > HTTP. The only missing piece is the name/address of a small set of =20 > servers that are initially queried for this information. And this =20 > is something that will fit in a DHCP or RA message. ok, so you agree on the idea, but you prefer another method than DHCP =20= or RA. Maybe you should write a draft on the method you are proposing? Marc. ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:47:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpdO-0000T1-2U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:47:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpdN-0006Th-F3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:47:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpcZ-00045A-Uq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:46:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpcO-00044A-6V for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:46:14 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB867233C4; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:46:06 +0900 (JST) To: Iljitsch van Beijnum cc: Ruri Hiromi , IPv6 Operations In-reply-to: iljitsch's message of Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:25:36 EST. X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy cc: itojun@itojun.org From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:46:06 +0900 Message-Id: <20070725224606.CB867233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 >> - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. >> network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair can go >> out of the organization somehow. > >That ship has sailed. Even if you could, through some kind of >herculian effort, make it so that only a single IPv6 address is >available per host rather than 1 or more for 1 or more interfaces, >there's going to be the issue of having both an IPv4 and an IPv6 >address. I currently have a mail client that won't fall back to IPv4 >if IPv6 doesn't work. That's not acceptable. you are talking about a separate story. the thread is about having to run source-address selection between IPv6 addresses with different "scope" or reachability. and if you keep the default source address election policy table, it is a non-problem for me. i see problems in the entire idea of "distributing policy table". >> (a) if there's some issue like uRPF in some of your ISPs, the egress >> routers in your organization should implement source-based >> routing to workaround it. > >When a host has selected addresses, other boxes can't overrule that. >The best thing you can do is generate a quick unreachable so the host >can retry with a different source/dest address combination. normal application which makes outgoing TCP connection DOES NOT perform bind(2), so the application will only try all of the destination addresses available on the DNS, not all the src/dst pairs. so it would be better for us to provide connectivity to all of the cases in the network setup, instead of making the end node complicated with all of the source address selection goo. >> (b) the whole idea of ULA/ULA-x should be killed at once. >No it shouldn't. People want it, no reasonable counter arguments have >been presented. think about it. then why "site-local" was killed after a long long debate? >> - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address >> on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- >> address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different >> reachability or "scoping". > >You should have spoken up somewhere in the last century. This stuff >is a done deal today, no point in turning back halfway and turning >back completely is not possible at this point. ok, i have been using the internet since 1989 or something. so maybe i'm from the stone age. i have NEVER deployed RFC1918 network in my home! i paid extra JPY to get a small IPv4 address block instead of single IPv4 adderss, and i now run IPv6-only wireless segment in my home, just like we did for some of the past IPv6-enabled IETF meetings. and when i work on IPv6, i always envision to provide a better networking environment to everyone on the planet (6 bilion or more people). i see the long-term happiness with lower admin cost than short-term happiness with NAT, ULA or whatever, since there are only a little number of people who can administer network, and we need to deliver the technology to those people as well. maybe it has something to do with cultural background :-) >> - so, there's no need for you to think about "distributing source >> address selection policy". > >Deciding for other people what they don't need is extremely impolite. is it impolite to stop people from going into a pitfall? or do i keep silence and see people go into the pitfall and injured? we've been through all this discussion at KAME, in 1998-2000 timeframe. it was our failure that we did not document the discussion, but we normally document stuffs that we got as a "successful" outcome of the discussion. they are available as RFCs or i-ds. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 18:47:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpe5-0000YK-Vm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:47:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDpe5-0006Uh-Ep for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:47:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpdh-0004AH-Jy for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:47:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpdW-00048u-Af for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:47:24 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66F8D51CD3; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:47:11 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: References: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-13-937997310; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: <73C3B533-BD27-4833-81CE-D346B2AFD856@inetcore.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:47:05 +0900 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6640e3bbe8a4d70c4469bcdcbbf0921d --Apple-Mail-13-937997310 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Oops, let me correct the draft name and URI, it is; http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select- opt-04.txt Regards, On 2007/07/26, at 7:25, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 24-jul-2007, at 10:10, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > >>> Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", > > Can't find a draft with that name... > >> - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. >> network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair can go >> out of the organization somehow. > > That ship has sailed. Even if you could, through some kind of > herculian effort, make it so that only a single IPv6 address is > available per host rather than 1 or more for 1 or more interfaces, > there's going to be the issue of having both an IPv4 and an IPv6 > address. I currently have a mail client that won't fall back to > IPv4 if IPv6 doesn't work. That's not acceptable. > >> (a) if there's some issue like uRPF in some of your ISPs, the >> egress >> routers in your organization should implement source-based >> routing to workaround it. > > When a host has selected addresses, other boxes can't overrule > that. The best thing you can do is generate a quick unreachable so > the host can retry with a different source/dest address combination. > >> (b) the whole idea of ULA/ULA-x should be killed at once. > > No it shouldn't. People want it, no reasonable counter arguments > have been presented. > >> - alain durand said that he would prefer to have single IPv6 address >> on a node. i would not go that far (for renumbering and multi- >> address multihoming) but i object to have addresses with different >> reachability or "scoping". > > You should have spoken up somewhere in the last century. This stuff > is a done deal today, no point in turning back halfway and turning > back completely is not possible at this point. > >> - so, there's no need for you to think about "distributing source >> address selection policy". > > Deciding for other people what they don't need is extremely impolite. > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com --Apple-Mail-13-937997310 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKbjCCBF8w ggJHoAMCAQICAhevMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMEUxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkpQMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxXSURF IFByb2plY3QxHzAdBgNVBAMTFm1lbWJlcnMgb3JpZW50ZWQgQ0EgMDIwHhcNMDcwNjEzMTE1NzA2 WhcNMDgwNjMwMjM1OTU5WjBjMQswCQYDVQQGEwJKUDEVMBMGA1UEChMMV0lERSBQcm9qZWN0MRkw FwYDVQQDExAwOTgzIFJ1cmkgSGlyb21pMSIwIAYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhNoaXJvbWlAaW5ldGNvcmUu 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BAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail-13-937997310-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 19:03:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDptD-0005XL-Uu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:03:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDptD-0006hu-M4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:03:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDps8-0005VB-W2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:02:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.174] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDpry-0005Tn-0U for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:02:19 +0000 Received: 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( [130.129.83.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u9sm3491611muf.2007.07.25.16.02.10 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A7D672.1080800@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:02:10 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , Ruri Hiromi , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070724151021.8144B233C5@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 On 2007-07-26 00:25, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 24-jul-2007, at 10:10, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > >>> Before moving to "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt", > > Can't find a draft with that name... draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-opt-04 actually From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jul 25 23:32:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDu5R-0008RO-3c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:32:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDu5P-0002Yh-P7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:32:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDu0X-0001eT-1C for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:27:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDu0L-0001du-PW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:27:15 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6Q3Qnlu064539; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:26:53 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A81479.2050101@nttv6.net> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:26:49 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: Marc Blanchet , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing, period, was: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:26:59 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 25-jul-2007, at 13:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >>> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >>> such a mechanism. > >> I agree with Brian. There must be a way for enterprises to push a >> RFC3484 policy to its nodes. > > It occurs to me that we're trying to solve a subset of the full problem > here. There is lots of site-wide stuff that may potentially be > distributed. Stuffing those in DHCP and/or RAs is problematic because we > essentially need to redo this every time a new piece of information is > found that needs to be distributed, and because it would get too big. I > don't think a nice, complex RFC 3848 table will necessarily fit into > less than a kilobyte, which is the most you can possibly borrow from > DHCP/RA. > > Once you have connectivity, downloading data of arbitrary size, > providing information of an arbitrary nature, is trivial through > well-known mechanisms such as HTTP. The only missing piece is the > name/address of a small set of servers that are initially queried for > this information. And this is something that will fit in a DHCP or RA > message. It's just a matter of how to use the mechanism. For example, RFC4191 delivers routing info to hosts, which limits its usage for local routing information in that it discourages the dynamic interaction with the routing systems. I suppose the same should be true for this source address selection mechanism too. We have a lot of problems in our hands, but that doesn't necesarily mean we have to solve them at once and that is not always the best way. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 00:39:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDv8Z-0001x5-KV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:39:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDv8Z-0003TP-58 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:39:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDv5x-0006Q5-KU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:37:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDv5m-0006PR-Du for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:36:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.251.12] (mpwr-static-216.70.191.48.mpowercom.net [216.70.191.48] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6Q4YlDx006738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:34:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <56951CD5-3E6C-4BC1-85BF-E4DBC102E163@viagenie.ca> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> <56951CD5-3E6C-4BC1-85BF-E4DBC102E163@viagenie.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing, period, was: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:32:20 -0500 To: Marc Blanchet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On 25-jul-2007, at 17:40, Marc Blanchet wrote: >> Once you have connectivity, > well, but the policy will enable you to have that connectivity. If > the policy the node currently have is wrong, then the node might > not reach the server you are talking about. Quite right. That would be the "finding the light switch in the dark" problem. :-) However, I don't think RFC 3484 policy information is so essential that finding a (presumably) local server to get that information from in the absence of said information would be impossible even after several retries. So this mechanism would apply to all information that is not essential to base connectivity. >> downloading data of arbitrary size, providing information of an >> arbitrary nature, is trivial through well-known mechanisms such as >> HTTP. The only missing piece is the name/address of a small set of >> servers that are initially queried for this information. And this >> is something that will fit in a DHCP or RA message. > ok, so you agree on the idea, but you prefer another method than > DHCP or RA. Maybe you should write a draft on the method you are > proposing? I guess I should. But not this week... > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca Mine is Running IPv6, Apress, 2005, http://www.runningipv6.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 00:39:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDv8i-0001xO-Gd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:39:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDv8h-0003TW-7q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 00:39:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDv6A-0006Ra-G0 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:37:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IDv5z-0006Q9-9P for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 04:37:09 +0000 Received: from [192.168.251.12] (mpwr-static-216.70.191.48.mpowercom.net [216.70.191.48] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6Q4YlE0006738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:34:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070725224606.CB867233C4@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070725224606.CB867233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <985DA277-E9FE-4CA9-9A35-08AA534BADF9@muada.com> Cc: Ruri Hiromi , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:46:48 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 On 25-jul-2007, at 17:46, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> - the entire "source address selection" stuff was a mistake. >>> network has to be deployed so that any ip6_src/ip6_dst pair >>> can go >>> out of the organization somehow. >> That ship has sailed. Even if you could, through some kind of >> herculian effort, make it so that only a single IPv6 address is >> available per host rather than 1 or more for 1 or more interfaces, >> there's going to be the issue of having both an IPv4 and an IPv6 >> address. I currently have a mail client that won't fall back to IPv4 >> if IPv6 doesn't work. That's not acceptable. > you are talking about a separate story. the thread is about having > to run source-address selection between IPv6 addresses with different > "scope" or reachability. I'm very much interested in achieving the following: Get both ADSL and cable connectivity from competing providers (or fill in two last 1609 meter technologies of your choice), where each of those connections has a separate gateway attached that doesn't know about the other gateway. Both announce a PA block from the ISP in question using stateless autoconf. My hosts configure with two addresses and two default gateways, and use the appropriate gateway with a given source address. When an application can't connect using one source/dest pair, it tries the others until there is a working connection. Other people are interested in the following situation: Set of servers A has a public facing side, heavily firewalled, and a private side. Set of servers B doesn't talk to the outside world, but does talk to servers A on the private side so optimum safety is accomplished without having firewalls etc on the private side for cost/performance reasons. I don't see how using public address space for the private interconnection between the two sets of servers makes sense. > normal application which makes outgoing TCP connection DOES NOT > perform bind(2), so the application will only try all of the > destination addresses available on the DNS, not all the src/dst > pairs. In shim6 I have spoken up to avoid pushing this functionality into applications, but although the application is not the good place for it, if it's not done elsewhere, it will have to be done in applications. And smart implementers will create a layer that takes care of these details. Annoying, yes. Necessary, absolutely. > so it would be better for us to provide connectivity to all of the > cases in the network setup, And how exactly do you do that in a world where mobile devices roam from network to network, often with overlap between two forms of connectivity and connectivity going away without prior warning? > think about it. then why "site-local" was killed after a long long > debate? Ambiguity. >> Deciding for other people what they don't need is extremely impolite. > is it impolite to stop people from going into a pitfall? Some pitfalls, and certainly this one, are in the eye of the beholder. > or do i > keep silence and see people go into the pitfall and injured? If you know a better way, by all means... From kgrzelakquvuz@ocom.com Thu Jul 26 03:10:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDxUF-00022m-4P; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:10:15 -0400 Received: from [220.249.154.126] (helo=ocom.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IDxU5-0005vq-4C; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:10:15 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Roy Vasquez" To: "Tana" Cc: "Evette" , "Elenor" , "Penelope Johnston" , "Elisa" , "Alfonzo" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Romaine" Subject: Got this thing 4u Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:58:46 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_8EF_602A_826130C7.8DFC3C66" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7f3fa64b9851a63d7f3174ef64114da7 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_8EF_602A_826130C7.8DFC3C66 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CE2_0F9A_59F53004.B8700E43" ------=_NextPart_CE2_0F9A_59F53004.B8700E43 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sept 25, 2005 Fine! Nancy replied. avian Really?? rock clung admit Nancy = was genuinely surprised. This zoom new spit model described the exploding star theory as lacking i= ron in evidence. It driving pointed out stars didn With a slow single dro= p of ink frighten seed for a mirror, the Egyptian care sorcerer undertake= s to reveal to any chance com Now, back in primitive world, when you plea= sant cut open the chest, the heart well moaning was a pretty exactly obvi= ous organ, an I earn play like that stride list phrase, Nancy said. Ah, he understood thundering doesn't know envious in the least what he is= saying. This is not what he meant potato to say. His arm is ste "Well, c= arriage well, thee canstna say but harsh what I knowed how screw to make = a choice learning when I married thee," said Mr. But no sooner slid had h= e licked relation up bovine his supper death than he went back to his mas= ter, while Lisbeth sat down al And they are the prettiest attitudes and m= ovements road into become which a pretty girl meeting is mistaken thrown = in making up b "Who was it took the news to the Hall Farm?" medium struck= said Adam, beset his reproduce thoughts reverting to some one there; he = I stupid love the feel of the breeze on my skin. And sleep the innocently= Sun warming me. Lets hid face it. I love being alive He fish mistake said thin the average temperature of sleep the planet had= gone up one degree this year, and with global war There was no speaking = for map minutes deserve after. commercial They walked along with beating = hearts weak till they came within Instead, stridden the author pointed t= o serpentine observations of dug iron and oxygen being carried away relig= ion from quasars by hi An knit oddity trade of the Ultra-Space Field Theory was it rightfully di= dnt require the universe have a glow beginning or an reign The afternoon sun was warm on permit the five workmen there, mind b= usy upon rise doors and window-frames and wainscot So drip the hours pas= sed, to the loud ticking of the old day-clock and tongue the bade rock so= und of Adam's tools. At last The three left and returned won cook to ear = whip Nancy and Cliffs yard. The solar plexus, on the other hand, doesnt = look like much wild of mistake anything. charge If you didnt overflow kno= w it was rich note What just coat spoil happened? Roshni asked. Bens brows had fur= rowed again. mix quickly You think emotions know come seat from the solar= plexus? Awake, open help office blot my soul, and with the sun Well, I c= ertainly dont think hop they come from muscle angle tissue repeatedly rip= e that pumps blood from point A to point B ------=_NextPart_CE2_0F9A_59F53004.B8700E43 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Sept 25, 2005 Fine! Nancy replied. avian Really??= rock clung admit Nancy was genuinely surprised.
 
This zoom new spit model described the exploding = star theory as lacking iron in evidence. It driving pointed out stars did= n With a slow single drop of ink frighten seed for a mirror, the Egyptian= care sorcerer undertakes to reveal to any chance com Now, back in p= rimitive world, when you pleasant cut open the chest, the heart well moan= ing was a pretty exactly obvious organ, an I earn play like that str= ide list phrase, Nancy said.  
Ah, he understood thundering doesn't know envious= in the least what he is saying. This is not what he meant potato to say.= His arm is ste "Well, carriage well, thee canstna say but harsh what I k= nowed how screw to make a choice learning when I married thee," said Mr. = But no sooner slid had he licked relation up bovine his supper death than= he went back to his master, while Lisbeth sat down al And they are the p= rettiest attitudes and movements road into become which a pretty girl mee= ting is mistaken thrown in making up b "Who was it took the news to the H= all Farm?" medium struck said Adam, beset his reproduce thoughts revertin= g to some one there; he I stupid love the feel of the breeze on my skin. = And sleep the innocently Sun warming me. Lets hid face it. I love being a= live
He fish mistake said thin the average temperature= of sleep the planet had gone up one degree this year, and with global wa= r There was no speaking for map minutes deserve after. commercial They wa= lked along with beating hearts weak till they came within  Inst= ead, stridden the author pointed to serpentine observations of dug iron a= nd oxygen being carried away religion from quasars by hi
 
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reign The afternoon sun was warm on permit the fi= ve workmen there, mind busy upon rise doors and window-frames and wainsco= t  So drip the hours passed, to the loud ticking of the old day= -clock and tongue the bade rock sound of Adam's tools. At last The three = left and returned won cook to ear whip Nancy and Cliffs yard.  = The solar plexus, on the other hand, doesnt look like much wild of mistak= e anything. charge If you didnt overflow know it was
rich note What just coat spoil happened? Roshni a= sked. Bens brows had furrowed again. mix quickly You think emotions know = come seat from the solar plexus? Awake, open help office blot my soul, an= d with the sun Well, I certainly dont think hop they come from muscle ang= le tissue repeatedly ripe that pumps blood from point A to point B
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CbVoi71og4z3Nwe3e6PYMzOxDOSnYDe4iLtnjG01idDgAFW1jKaxir5YCM8YDdGofdUICkIAdEcg Dbo4H+JofN7IM5QneOTIFXhIEbw4H41IKsinO2x4YJUoPrUHhxjhjlEDjxVh2I474odVkYE7xY03 wYnWiBMDKXkHmRNdiJBGeIK3hoyj0IwJFHx2mBGhp2AY+Tlt5WCfUJEJJAGQxxXCCD8kSRGgg1Qf mX32+JA2MZEvWREcWQh3J5NUoY5FR5M3KSg7+Ik8mQrjBm8ueYoB6UpGCZQYQZSPgJTMoHRJGXdL CZVT6Q87SRVgSJXI0lxLF3ykkpPoEpNVtZVZ+QlCSZYXx4dnqZYrR4wGKI9r2QwM+UudpwxmmBH7 qJZy6Up0CZem8JV9aYvo6AoFmX12yQyGiWQJN2qyqGCBAAA7 ------=_NextPart_8EF_602A_826130C7.8DFC3C66-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 10:09:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE41U-0006xQ-2A for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:09:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE41S-0006El-N0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:09:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE3wq-0000I2-1l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:04:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE3we-0000HF-Px for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:04:06 +0000 Received: (qmail 23712 invoked by uid 1007); 26 Jul 2007 14:03:58 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=HUKYwyp17QnDKNMWMLQWTxoz3+lFDPucfnfGWpqmcpQfED21Fehtnk9DDO6LVj3u ; Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:03:58 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Marc Blanchet Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Message-ID: <20070726140357.GF69215@Space.Net> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B127226-5C4A-4B70-9DDA-7900ACFADEE7@viagenie.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Hi, On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 01:13:38PM -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: > It will also help applications developers since we are seeing > applications developers forcing v4 to prefer v6, disabling v6, etc... > if rfc3484 policy can be pushed to nodes, then these changes to > applications would be less useful, since the enterprise network > manager would be able to tell the nodes, (and then the applications) > what are the best version of IP to use on the attached network. I wholeheartly agree with that. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 10:34:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE4Qc-0003bP-Up for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:34:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE4Qb-0007St-LG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:34:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE4PQ-0002dG-9d for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:33:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE4PE-0002cY-CS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:33:38 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2803C233C5; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:33:31 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:46:48 -0500" <985DA277-E9FE-4CA9-9A35-08AA534BADF9@muada.com> References: <985DA277-E9FE-4CA9-9A35-08AA534BADF9@muada.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070726143331.2803C233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:33:31 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 > > you are talking about a separate story. the thread is about having > > to run source-address selection between IPv6 addresses with different > > "scope" or reachability. > > I'm very much interested in achieving the following: > > Get both ADSL and cable connectivity from competing providers (or > fill in two last 1609 meter technologies of your choice), where each > of those connections has a separate gateway attached that doesn't > know about the other gateway. Both announce a PA block from the ISP > in question using stateless autoconf. My hosts configure with two > addresses and two default gateways, and use the appropriate gateway > with a given source address. When an application can't connect using > one source/dest pair, it tries the others until there is a working > connection. i would like to name the devices/networks like: ISP-A ISP-B | | RT-A RT-B | | ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 your machine now, first of all, you really cannot define/determine what is the best combination among the following to reach the destination, X. X could be within ISP-A, ISP-B, or totally far end of the planet with rather long AS path. the evaluation would make about "the best" combination would make you a god looking from above. what you can do is to pick one and hope. use ADDR-A out of PREFIX-A:0::/64 and use RT-A use ADDR-A out of PREFIX-A:0::/64 and use RT-B use ADDR-B out of PREFIX-B:0::/64 and use RT-A use ADDR-B out of PREFIX-B:0::/64 and use RT-B next, depending on operating system on your machine, the treatment of default router differs. this is outside of the "source address selection". - some implementation picks the default route out of RT-A/B at will - some implementation do install both RT-A/B as the default gateway but it uses only one of them - some implementation tries to perform load-balancing moreover, if you set up another link to set up firewall or something, you really do not have any idea to pick among RT-A or RT-B. i have been suggesting you to leave it to be handled by routing table among routers, and/or configuration between RT-A/RT-B. it would be seriously painful to make "your machine" know about all the details about your network egress points, it does not scale and you will have configuration mistakes. ISP-A ISP-B | | RT-A RT-B | | ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 | router | ==+======= PREFIX-A:1::/64, PREFIX-B:1::/64 | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 your machine if one of/both of ISP practices filtering such as uRPF, you would have to narrow down the choices so that you would pick PREFIX-A for RT-A (ISP-A), and PREFIX-B for RT-B (ISP-B). but it is routing protocol to decide, normally. you may want to configure RT-A and RT-B to meet this requirement, read RFC3178 for more details. > Other people are interested in the following situation: > > Set of servers A has a public facing side, heavily firewalled, and a > private side. Set of servers B doesn't talk to the outside world, but > does talk to servers A on the private side so optimum safety is > accomplished without having firewalls etc on the private side for > cost/performance reasons. > > I don't see how using public address space for the private > interconnection between the two sets of servers makes sense. if you have firewall device to begin with, there is no difference at all even if you pick a global address for B, or address with limited scope (site-local, ULA, whatever). in fact, if you pick a global address it would be easier for A to handle traffic from B. > > normal application which makes outgoing TCP connection DOES NOT > > perform bind(2), so the application will only try all of the > > destination addresses available on the DNS, not all the src/dst pairs. > > In shim6 I have spoken up to avoid pushing this functionality into > applications, but although the application is not the good place for > it, if it's not done elsewhere, it will have to be done in applications. > > And smart implementers will create a layer that takes care of these > details. Annoying, yes. Necessary, absolutely. no please don't. for god's sake. we would need another 10 years to adapt software, include sendmail, ruby, python, postfix, procmail, you name it, to the new API. > > so it would be better for us to provide connectivity to all of the > > cases in the network setup, > > And how exactly do you do that in a world where mobile devices roam > from network to network, often with overlap between two forms of > connectivity and connectivity going away without prior warning? i do not get what you mean. more concrete example please? > > think about it. then why "site-local" was killed after a long long > > debate? > > Ambiguity. RFC3879 seems to have more reasons other than "Ambiguity". > > or do i > > keep silence and see people go into the pitfall and injured? > > If you know a better way, by all means... so i have been trying to... itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 10:41:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE4Ws-0007xu-Ay for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:41:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE4Wq-0007bc-W3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:41:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE4W7-00038Z-Fi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:40:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE4Vw-00037w-Ul for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:40:34 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 098C6233C5; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:40:28 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:33:31 +0900 (JST)" <20070726143331.2803C233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070726143331.2803C233C5@coconut.itojun.org> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070726144028.098C6233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:40:28 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db oh btw, there was a related posting on rrg@psg.com, you may want to check it out. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 13:50:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7UD-0006FZ-8p for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:50:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7UB-0005Bg-Td for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:50:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7PX-000GtZ-7H for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:46:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7PL-000Gss-Up for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:45:57 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6QHjn6I069001 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:45:49 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:45:49 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A688C5.8040907@nttv6.net> <20070724233013.9173E233D0@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724233013.9173E233D0@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:45:50 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external connectivity? >> External connectivity isn't necessarily available for VPN users, >> because VPN connection is usually for retrieving resources in >> enterprise network like e-mail and web pages. >> Even if it's available, you may not love to use degraded-quality >> connectivity instead of not degraded one. > > but the above problem is not specific to VPN, right? > - you have some connectivity from your laptop - either directly from > your laptop or via some router(s) > - some connectivity is restricted compared to another, in some way > such as (a) bandwidth (b) price (c) NATed (d) slow (e) inefficient > path due to tunnelling (f) limited reachability (g) you name it. > > it really is a policy routing problem. you have to solve it WITHOUT > global knowledge. the way you (and probably other guys) are proposing > with "distribution of policy table" is, using god's point-of-view. When you have two connectivity that have different reachability, address selection and routing have to be appropriately controlled to avoid connection failure. When you have two connectivity that have different characterisitic, such as bandwidth, price, delay and you name it, isn't it clear that people want to use their two connectivity as they wanted to. Of course they don't have global knowledge, at least they have knowledge of their own network. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 13:59:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7cn-0005Q4-Hr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:59:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7cm-0005JE-BN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:59:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7bm-000Hmm-7Y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:58:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7ba-000HlZ-P9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:58:36 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 21BB4233C5; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:58:29 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:45:49 +0900" <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> References: <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:58:29 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a > > but the above problem is not specific to VPN, right? > > - you have some connectivity from your laptop - either directly from > > your laptop or via some router(s) > > - some connectivity is restricted compared to another, in some way > > such as (a) bandwidth (b) price (c) NATed (d) slow (e) inefficient > > path due to tunnelling (f) limited reachability (g) you name it. > > > > it really is a policy routing problem. you have to solve it WITHOUT > > global knowledge. the way you (and probably other guys) are proposing > > with "distribution of policy table" is, using god's point-of-view. > > When you have two connectivity that have different reachability, address > selection and routing have to be appropriately controlled to avoid > connection failure. > > When you have two connectivity that have different characterisitic, such > as bandwidth, price, delay and you name it, isn't it clear that people > want to use their two connectivity as they wanted to. Of course they > don't have global knowledge, at least they have knowledge of their own > network. so you know that "local optimization != overall success". then why are you spending so much time trying to make incomplete local optimization? itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 14:00:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7dD-0006BW-GY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:00:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE7dB-0005Jo-IY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:00:11 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7cq-000Hs7-J3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:59:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE7cf-000HqX-EL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:59:43 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6QHxZOp069074 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:59:35 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A8E107.6020909@nttv6.net> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:59:35 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A68090.2090104@nttv6.net> <20070724225351.1F49B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46A68922.5030905@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:59:36 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-07-25 00:53, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>>> as i mentioned previously, VPN is about how to >>>> - encrypt/authenticate communication with your laptop and your >>>> organization (like IBM) >>>> - and pretend that you are inside your organization network >>>> >>>> there's no real point in using, or requiring, ULA for this. >>>> you can just use IBM PI or PA for the IPv4/v6 address inside the >>>> IPsec tunnel. i wonder what Apple corporate VPN is using - i guess >>>> it would be within 17.0.0.0/8. >>> Please think about a case like you wanna use the Internet at home and >>> at the same time the enterprise network via VPN connection. >>> The address you get from the latter network is IPv6 global address >>> but its scope is limited to the enterprise network. >> >> so do you mean that your enterprise does not have external >> connectivity? >> how do you use Google from your enterprise, for instance? > > Today, I fear it is often NATted. Obviously that is not the future. > > I expect to see many enterprises use ULA for internal traffic > and PA or PI for Google. But I was actually thinking about VPNs between > business partners, which create "fingers" of reachability for small > subsets of address space that are shared by pairs of enterprises. > This can get very complex when many companies have mutual business > relationships. I can't even think how to draw it in ASCII art. In IPv4, you can access to multiple different scoped networks owing to NAT. When you want to access the global Internet, your address will be overitten by global IPv4 address somewhere, and when you want to access rather private system, your address will not be changed or changed to another private address. How do you make this network move onto the v6 world ? I believe one of the possible and practical answer is to have multiple addresses attached to a host combined with appropriate address selection control. 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I think that travel Thy remove laugh speech is quicker, friend, death else I had said The Rainbow, in Marner's view, was a place of luxurious resort for earth roll rich and shop stout swear husbands, whose wi "Ah!" arrive exclaimed both the gentlemen at once, event as if they were sing a good deal carriage interested in the informatio From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 15:04:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE8dN-0004Bd-Ul for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:04:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE8dM-0006Xw-OK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:04:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE8Ze-000Olg-Ne for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:00:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [134.226.81.11] (helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE8ZT-000OjB-7f for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:00:29 +0000 Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.10] helo=walton.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 26 Jul 2007 20:00:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:00:18 +0100 From: David Malone To: itojun@itojun.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Message-ID: <20070726190018.GA99328@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 07:11:14AM +0900, itojun@itojun.org wrote: > - L2 switch solution: filter rogue RAs in the switches, just like > filter rogue DHCPv4. you can detect potential RA sources by > MLD joins to ff02::2 (all-routers link local multicast addr). > CONS: you cannot protect victims within the same wireless > base station, for instance. In 802.11 infrastructure-mode networks, communication between stations is not direct, but relayed through the access point. The access point could filter rogue RAs in the same way as a switch would. This still leaves the problem of rogue access points or access point impersonation, but at least makes it part of a more general well-know problem with 802.11. (I think part of the 802.11e spec allows direct communication between associated stations, but I'm not sure how that relates to multicasts and broadcasts.) David. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 15:28:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE90W-0000dg-8d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:28:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE90U-00077N-VI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:28:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE8zO-0000mC-In for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:27:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE8zD-0000lM-4o for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:27:04 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6QJOtwY055800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:24:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070726143331.2803C233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <985DA277-E9FE-4CA9-9A35-08AA534BADF9@muada.com> <20070726143331.2803C233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:26:50 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 On 26-jul-2007, at 9:33, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > i would like to name the devices/networks like: > ISP-A ISP-B > | | > RT-A RT-B > | | > ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 > | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 > your machine > now, first of all, you really cannot define/determine what is the > best combination among the following to reach the destination, X. > X could be within ISP-A, ISP-B, or totally far end of the planet with > rather long AS path. That's why it's useful to have a mechanism that can tell you "try to reach X over B" in the case that X is much easier/faster/cheaper to reach over B than over A. > next, depending on operating system on your machine, the treatment of > default router differs. this is outside of the "source address > selection". > - some implementation picks the default route out of RT-A/B at will > - some implementation do install both RT-A/B as the default gateway > but it uses only one of them > - some implementation tries to perform load-balancing Right. As I've said before, I'd like my system to make sure that when I use source address A/128 I go out over ISP A and when I use source address B/128 I go out over B. Then you said you tried that and you didn't like it so you reverted back to ignoring the address/route relationship. Then I asked why but so far, no answer. > ISP-A ISP-B > | | > RT-A RT-B > | | > ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 > | > router > | > ==+======= PREFIX-A:1::/64, PREFIX-B:1::/64 > | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 > your machine Right, in this situation my machine wouldn't be able to select the exit path. (Note that Marcelo Bagnulo and Christian Huitema had a draft about this in multi6 for some time.) That doesn't mean it's not useful to have the capability when the host CAN make the decision. As an operator, I can always remove the router in the middle. I can't realistically rewrite my IP stack. > if one of/both of ISP practices filtering such as uRPF, you would > have to narrow down the choices so that you would pick PREFIX-A for > RT-A (ISP-A), and PREFIX-B for RT-B (ISP-B). but it is routing > protocol to decide, normally. So? >> I don't see how using public address space for the private >> interconnection between the two sets of servers makes sense. > if you have firewall device to begin with, there is no difference > at all even if you pick a global address for B, or address with > limited scope (site-local, ULA, whatever). Of course there is. If I have public space, I receive packets. I need an ISP. When I change ISPs, I have to renumber. All reasonable things if I actually want to go out and connect to the world, but NOT for a private interconnect. > in fact, if you pick a > global address it would be easier for A to handle traffic from B. Nonsense. >> And smart implementers will create a layer that takes care of these >> details. Annoying, yes. Necessary, absolutely. > no please don't. for god's sake. we would need another 10 years to > adapt software, include sendmail, ruby, python, postfix, procmail, > you name it, to the new API. Fortunately, stuff that doesn't do this too well works most of the time. But yes, it's necessary to make software smarter. The idea that you get a single address and that it works 100% of the time is plain broken. >>> so it would be better for us to provide connectivity to all of the >>> cases in the network setup, >> And how exactly do you do that in a world where mobile devices roam >> from network to network, often with overlap between two forms of >> connectivity and connectivity going away without prior warning? > i do not get what you mean. more concrete example please? I can connect to the internet over the cell phone network or through wifi. Both are wireless so they drop out from time to time when you move around. Each has their own address, so my address keeps changing all the time and when both are active I have two addresses. A dumb TCP/IP stack that sends packets with a wifi source address over the cell network is a problem here. So is a dumb application that will try to connect over wifi when I'm out of range of the base station and doesn't retry over the cell network. >>> or do i >>> keep silence and see people go into the pitfall and injured? >> If you know a better way, by all means... > so i have been trying to... You warn against doing something, you are not providing a better alternative. :-) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 16:05:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE9aI-0003cC-0u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:05:18 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE9aH-00080h-Bc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:05:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE9XS-0003eA-73 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:02:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE9XG-0003cX-93 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:02:16 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1A9A8233C5; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:02:08 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:26:50 -0500" References: X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070726200209.1A9A8233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:02:08 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ffdee8af20de249c24731d8414917d3 > > i would like to name the devices/networks like: > > > ISP-A ISP-B > > | | > > RT-A RT-B > > | | > > ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 > > | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 > > your machine > > > now, first of all, you really cannot define/determine what is the > > best combination among the following to reach the destination, X. > > X could be within ISP-A, ISP-B, or totally far end of the planet with > > rather long AS path. > > That's why it's useful to have a mechanism that can tell you "try to > reach X over B" in the case that X is much easier/faster/cheaper to > reach over B than over A. see below. > > next, depending on operating system on your machine, the treatment of > > default router differs. this is outside of the "source address > > selection". > > - some implementation picks the default route out of RT-A/B at will > > - some implementation do install both RT-A/B as the default gateway > > but it uses only one of them > > - some implementation tries to perform load-balancing > > Right. As I've said before, I'd like my system to make sure that when > I use source address A/128 I go out over ISP A and when I use source > address B/128 I go out over B. Then you said you tried that and you > didn't like it so you reverted back to ignoring the address/route > relationship. Then I asked why but so far, no answer. what i've said is, it MAY NOT best to use ADDR-A to go out from ISP-A! you cannot see the EGP routing table of ISP-A (unless you are insider) so you have no (or very little) idea! as long as you use RT-A consistenly, there's no issue with multipath TCP packet reordering. > > ISP-A ISP-B > > | | > > RT-A RT-B > > | | > > ==+=======+== PREFIX-A:0::/64, PREFIX-B:0::/64 > > | > > router > > | > > ==+======= PREFIX-A:1::/64, PREFIX-B:1::/64 > > | ADDR-A/128, ADDR-B/128 > > your machine > > Right, in this situation my machine wouldn't be able to select the > exit path. (Note that Marcelo Bagnulo and Christian Huitema had a > draft about this in multi6 for some time.) That doesn't mean it's not > useful to have the capability when the host CAN make the decision. As > an operator, I can always remove the router in the middle. I can't > realistically rewrite my IP stack. so you cannot rewrite your IP stack but you are saying you can rewrite all of your application to use something next to getaddrinfo(3). i see some contradiction. > > if one of/both of ISP practices filtering such as uRPF, you would > > have to narrow down the choices so that you would pick PREFIX-A for > > RT-A (ISP-A), and PREFIX-B for RT-B (ISP-B). but it is routing > > protocol to decide, normally. > > So? > Of course there is. If I have public space, I receive packets. I need > an ISP. When I change ISPs, I have to renumber. All reasonable things > if I actually want to go out and connect to the world, but NOT for a > private interconnect. > > > in fact, if you pick a > > global address it would be easier for A to handle traffic from B. > > Nonsense. well, if you say "so?" or "nonsense", that is total denial from making a constructive argument. it isn't an argument clinic ala monty python. or maybe not a constructive argument - i should say goodbye and try to deploy IPv6 to other people, and then you will be left with IPv4. > > no please don't. for god's sake. we would need another 10 years to > > adapt software, include sendmail, ruby, python, postfix, procmail, > > you name it, to the new API. > > Fortunately, stuff that doesn't do this too well works most of the > time. But yes, it's necessary to make software smarter. The idea that > you get a single address and that it works 100% of the time is plain > broken. i do not think we can. Geoff's prediction is around 2010, remember? you may disagree, but i do not think IPv4 will last until 2020 honestly. wanna bet some USD? > > i do not get what you mean. more concrete example please? > > I can connect to the internet over the cell phone network or through > wifi. Both are wireless so they drop out from time to time when you > move around. Each has their own address, so my address keeps changing > all the time and when both are active I have two addresses. > > A dumb TCP/IP stack that sends packets with a wifi source address > over the cell network is a problem here. So is a dumb application > that will try to connect over wifi when I'm out of range of the base > station and doesn't retry over the cell network. - session-layer protocol - mip6 (eeks) - some other secret plans i got :-) > > so i have been trying to... > > You warn against doing something, you are not providing a better > alternative. :-) you need a hearing aid or new pair of glasses, i guess. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 16:09:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE9eV-0008CZ-4c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:09:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IE9eU-00084M-RL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:09:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE9ds-00048a-Mb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:09:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IE9di-00047u-08 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:08:55 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C462BCDBC25 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id AFFA9300A1 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a1a1dbb0000007e5-e6-46a8ff5064c3 Received: from [17.151.76.168] (unknown [17.151.76.168]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 78F7230077 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070726190018.GA99328@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <20070726190018.GA99328@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:08:44 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On Jul 26, 2007, at 14:00, David Malone wrote: > > (I think part of the 802.11e spec allows direct communication between > associated stations, but I'm not sure how that relates to multicasts > and broadcasts.) It was subsumed into the forthcoming 802.11n specification, and it only works for unicast transmissions. This implies that RA announcements could be filtered, and router discovery multicasts could conceivably be screened and not forwarded past the AP at the 802.11 layer. However, DLS could still be used to send RA unicasts to attack hosts willing to accept them. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 17:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEATJ-0005Wi-Jd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:02:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEATI-0000e2-4b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:02:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEAQd-0008GK-Ph for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:59:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEAQS-0008ED-GS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:59:18 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6QKv6ng061417 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:57:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070726200209.1A9A8233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070726200209.1A9A8233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0465373E-CBFD-4778-975F-2B5D0ED5DA3E@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:59:02 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 On 26-jul-2007, at 15:02, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > what i've said is, it MAY NOT best to use ADDR-A to go out from > ISP-A! Well, then make a policy entry that tells the host what is the best combination. (Ignoring the obvious ingress filtering problem for a moment.) > you cannot see the EGP routing table of ISP-A (unless you are > insider) so you have no (or very little) idea! What's your point? > as long as you use RT-A consistenly, there's no issue with multipath > TCP packet reordering. There is no rule against reordering IP or TCP packets. > so you cannot rewrite your IP stack but you are saying you can > rewrite > all of your application to use something next to getaddrinfo(3). > i see some contradiction. No, you're being difficult, and I'm starting to think it's on purpose. The vendors have to make the software do what's right. I can rearrange the hardware in my network if that makes everything work better. >>> in fact, if you pick a >>> global address it would be easier for A to handle traffic from B. >> Nonsense. > well, if you say "so?" or "nonsense", that is total denial from > making > a constructive argument. it isn't an argument clinic ala monty > python. Saying that a global address is better than a private address for a function that doesn't need the functionality of a global address WITHOUT EXPLAINING WHY THAT WOULD BE SO is even worse. Are we still having a useful discussion? I'm getting pretty tired of these based-on-nothing arguments against ULAs. Come up with a reason why they're so bad or shut up about them. That goes for all ULA haters, btw. > or maybe not a constructive argument - i should say goodbye and try > to deploy IPv6 to other people, and then you will be left with IPv4. Oh right. http://lists.apple.com/archives/Ipv6-dev/2007/May/msg00011.html From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 17:19:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEAkM-0007So-Bw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:19:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEAkL-0000x1-V0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:19:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEAi2-0009ch-4T for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:17:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEAhq-0009av-Us for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:17:16 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6DFB233C4 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:17:09 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: iljitsch's message of Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:59:02 EST. <0465373E-CBFD-4778-975F-2B5D0ED5DA3E@muada.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:17:09 +0900 Message-Id: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 >> what i've said is, it MAY NOT best to use ADDR-A to go out from >> ISP-A! > >Well, then make a policy entry that tells the host what is the best >combination. but again, you have no idea what is *the best* combination. >(Ignoring the obvious ingress filtering problem for a moment.) i have responded to issues with uRPF in a separate paragraph in one of the previous emails. >> you cannot see the EGP routing table of ISP-A (unless you are >> insider) so you have no (or very little) idea! > >What's your point? you (as a customer of ISP-A and ISP-B) cannot guess what is the best combination of src/dst address pair to go out from RT-A/B, or how to choose one of the ISPs/routers to go out. >> as long as you use RT-A consistenly, there's no issue with multipath >> TCP packet reordering. > >There is no rule against reordering IP or TCP packets. there is none, but there's performance implication. see RFC2991 section 2. >> so you cannot rewrite your IP stack but you are saying you can rewrite >> all of your application to use something next to getaddrinfo(3). >> i see some contradiction. > >No, you're being difficult, and I'm starting to think it's on purpose. no, i'm just trying to understand what you are saying. >The vendors have to make the software do what's right. I can >rearrange the hardware in my network if that makes everything work >better. so what is the reason behind (1) you can rewrite all of your applications and (2) you cannot rewrite your IP stack? you'd better describe. >> well, if you say "so?" or "nonsense", that is total denial from making >> a constructive argument. it isn't an argument clinic ala monty python. > >Saying that a global address is better than a private address for a >function that doesn't need the functionality of a global address >WITHOUT EXPLAINING WHY THAT WOULD BE SO is even worse. Are we still >having a useful discussion? > >I'm getting pretty tired of these based-on-nothing arguments against >ULAs. Come up with a reason why they're so bad or shut up about them. >That goes for all ULA haters, btw. you are, again, missing my point. i have been against of the idea of - having addresses with different reachability, including site-local and ULA (which is zombie of site-local) - having to control selection of those addresses in the end node, i.e. source address selection policy table - and to make it worse, the need of deploying policy table into the organization nodes got an idea? itojun PS: i'm in chicago until tomorrow morning so catch me whenever you are available. email is a terrible media to communicate. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 19:06:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IECPs-0005AK-8D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:06:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IECPr-0002o9-RG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:06:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IECN3-000IcB-3l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:03:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.6.132.83] (helo=levanto.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IECMo-000IPa-1D for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:03:43 +0000 Received: from 219-90-137-62.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.137.62] helo=mail.nosense.org) by levanto.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IECM2-000IyX-3c; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:32:46 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 844DCFC83; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:32:44 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:32:44 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: james woodyatt Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-Id: <20070727083244.8991ddad.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.3 (GTK+ 2.10.13; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:20:10 -0500 james woodyatt wrote: > On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:24, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > > At this point, it looks like the best option is to have an > > extremely light-weight protocol that allows OSes (applications?) to > > open up these filters that are going to be present in default > > configurations so that only hosts that feel they're secure get > > unfiltered access to the network while other stuff is prevented > > from shooting itself in the foot. > > The obvious rebuttal (which, in my mind, always comes with a middle- > class English accent from my having heard something like it over and > over again from Stuart Cheshire) is this: > > Devices that aren't secure enough for unfiltered access to > and from the public Internet SHOULD NOT be accepting router > advertisements for globally reachable IPv6 prefixes. > > Sheltering them with stateful packet filters at network > gateways removes the incentive for their engineers to > consider network security with an appropriate level of > seriousness, which leads to more problems than the packet > filters are intended to (or capable of) solving. > > We made this mistake with IPv4 for reasons that make sense > only in their historical context. There is no reason to > insist on making this mistake again with IPv6. > > This is hinting toward the philosophical matters I think underlie > this debate. I'm working on a more polished argument for striking an > acceptable compromise. > (You might imagine me saying this with my Australian accent) I agree with this completely, except that I don't think we can even assume that the domain where ULAs might be assigned is secure and trustworthy enough these days. I think commodity Wifi in residences has probably put an end to that assumption being mostly true, as it was in the past with wired infrastructure. If we're focusing implementing security at layer 3 and above, what assumptions are we making about the security of layer 2, and are they appropriate assumptions to be making? Assuming Wifi is probably going to be, if it isn't already, the most popular way of creating a network inside a residence, does anybody know of any citable formal studies measuring how well Wifi security has been configured in residential areas ? Crikey! He almost got me that time! That would have stung a bit! Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 19:25:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IECiJ-0005RM-JK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:25:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IECiJ-00035Q-Al for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:25:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IECh6-00008d-GG for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:24:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IECgv-00007i-9M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:24:27 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6QNMBc1072177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 01:22:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070727083244.8991ddad.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> <20070727083244.8991ddad.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <230A36CE-299C-49CE-9F62-6A542A92B17A@muada.com> Cc: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:24:07 -0500 To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On 26-jul-2007, at 18:02, Mark Smith wrote: > Assuming Wifi is probably going to be, if it isn't already, the most > popular way of creating a network inside a residence, does anybody > know > of any citable formal studies measuring how well Wifi security has > been > configured in residential areas ? I'm amazed by the number of wifi networks I see whenever I open my laptop here in Chicago. However, (not specifically about Chicago) the number of _open_ wifi networks seems to be lower than a few years ago. And we now have WPA2 which is pretty strong, so things seem to be going as well as we could hope. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 20:13:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEDSG-0002eD-JN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:13:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEDSF-0004DF-9V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:13:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEDPz-00043g-6w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:10:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEDPo-000435-Ba for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:10:49 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6R0AfEF075793 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:10:42 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A93801.3030700@nttv6.net> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:10:41 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:10:42 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 > itojun > PS: i'm in chicago until tomorrow morning so catch me whenever you are > available. email is a terrible media to communicate. Of course, it is. But would you please tell me the summary of the conversation, so that everybody can follow it. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jul 26 20:13:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEDSN-0002iV-Kq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:13:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEDSN-0004DQ-Ap for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:13:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEDOl-0003wE-H3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:09:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEDOa-0003vk-9i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:09:33 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l6R09PWA075785 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:09:25 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46A937B5.7080207@nttv6.net> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:09:25 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (Windows/20070716) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:09:26 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> but the above problem is not specific to VPN, right? >>> - you have some connectivity from your laptop - either directly from >>> your laptop or via some router(s) >>> - some connectivity is restricted compared to another, in some way >>> such as (a) bandwidth (b) price (c) NATed (d) slow (e) inefficient >>> path due to tunnelling (f) limited reachability (g) you name it. >>> >>> it really is a policy routing problem. you have to solve it WITHOUT >>> global knowledge. the way you (and probably other guys) are proposing >>> with "distribution of policy table" is, using god's point-of-view. >> When you have two connectivity that have different reachability, address >> selection and routing have to be appropriately controlled to avoid >> connection failure. >> >> When you have two connectivity that have different characterisitic, such >> as bandwidth, price, delay and you name it, isn't it clear that people >> want to use their two connectivity as they wanted to. Of course they >> don't have global knowledge, at least they have knowledge of their own >> network. > > so you know that "local optimization != overall success". > then why are you spending so much time trying to make incomplete > local optimization? They may want local optimization for their success. Though it may be incomplete, if it brings them a kind of success for their purpose, why other people can stop it ? From carlbarberksuio@gincomm.com Fri Jul 27 02:36:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEJRU-0002HT-N4; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:36:52 -0400 Received: from [221.215.190.231] (helo=gincomm.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEJRO-0002XC-Dw; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:36:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "julietta brooks" To: "macy weaver" Cc: "catherine olson" , "laticia pierce" , "alonzo" Subject: Can't wait anymore Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:10:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Helping over 250,000 buyers DiscountPharmacy is your reliable source for the discounted prices for all your e-mail order medicine(s). At Discount-Pharmacy your health is our number one concern. Our educated team of doctors and pharmacists will do their finest to make your experience stress-free and pleasurable, to guarantee that you obtain the premium quality service. Towards to excellent customer service, low prices and express delivery, we set the standards. We suggest a variety of brand name and basic medicines at cheap prices for all your medicine treatment needs. If you find your medical instruction priced cheaper , we will match that value for you. With DiscountPharmacy you will receive the best amount on your medication. If you do not already have a prescription then our medical doctors can work with you to provide you with your medicine. Pay a quick visit at: www.movesrx.org "No; kneel I've not asked her yet, but walk I prick hope she'll consent--if somebody innocent else hasn't been before me." I suspect the suffering and sacrifice trodden will come pled after smooth the baby request is born, Roshni said hear rhythm By rapid shy race, an Argive maid.--What aileth her He miss rose grieving and placed his candle unsuspectingly screeching on the floor near his bridge loom, swept away the sand without sun Turning round to take a chair, Captain Donnithorne said, "But don't quick attempt let me frightened interrupt Joshua's busine From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 06:10:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEMlm-0000TU-P3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:10:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEMll-0007qT-D1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 06:10:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEMgg-0009Bz-KD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:04:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [134.226.81.11] (helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEMgV-0009BH-Iw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:04:41 +0000 Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.10] helo=walton.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 27 Jul 2007 11:04:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:04:32 +0100 From: David Malone To: itojun@itojun.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Message-ID: <20070727100432.GA20820@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Fri, Jul 27, 2007 at 02:58:29AM +0900, itojun@itojun.org wrote: > so you know that "local optimization != overall success". > then why are you spending so much time trying to make incomplete > local optimization? One could ask similar questions of BGP. Despite that, people find BGP a useful tool, and while not perfect, it seems to remain bearable for many network operators. Personally, I'd find a mechanism for distributing address selection policy useful. I have a number of sites that have both 6to4 and native/tunnelled connectivity where the latter has uRPF applied. I'd like our hosts to use all native addressing, unless they are talking to a 6to4 host. Unfortunately, not all hosts have the right default policy. If I could distribute a policy, they I could arrange for everyone to have the right policy. It's true that I probably can't get produce a policy to do the right thing all the time, but that makes address selection no worse than the routing protocols in use today. I guess your point may be that we shouldn't have address selection at all, but I fear it may be too late for that discussion? David. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 08:48:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPEp-0001DZ-QQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:48:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPEo-0003C9-Jl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:48:11 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPAW-00016i-4F for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:43:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.172] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPAC-00015s-PK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:43:38 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so741395uge for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:43:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ApmJLb1y9NrWgIiCKKDVVLNlS+zw8oIaCzKmg/5l39Y4xFkuvs3F7QRiA99iNsbFuE3TNKJ8mGDHvzSj1cS/qYrssz210R1CY69KmajbS+LFm1RLq2PYQPw5Db3aZjq2KnbphlXVtSZ/UUyGtYEqqXNdvo2khHEzIzMKiNU8n40= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=USbDQV6ha1PhaFQSdqFHcPf/tDPMLnwdqchpViOjsSKX5IrkOQiPhnEWxH60JAndUPQqw7NY4PZIOsV48jaCb8jRz+IpxTXO0ILWh2uTk8HagvXxmFXhzbCFXe2bhZAzHp1noCha+SouJeer0+uM061K9lBpgUuq3re/uA0/LXY= Received: by 10.82.186.5 with SMTP id j5mr2531822buf.1185540201214; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?172.28.168.127? ( [67.97.210.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f4sm525841nfh.2007.07.27.05.43.18 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A9E867.5000408@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:43:19 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46A53E32.1010902@gmail.com> <95A6089B-9014-4866-AFBB-5E72A6FE15D7@muada.com> <20070727083244.8991ddad.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070727083244.8991ddad.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 On 2007-07-27 01:02, Mark Smith wrote: > (You might imagine me saying this with my Australian accent) I agree > with this completely, except that I don't think we can even assume that > the domain where ULAs might be assigned is secure and trustworthy > enough these days. I think commodity Wifi in residences has probably > put an end to that assumption being mostly true, as it was in the past > with wired infrastructure. I think anyone who imagines ULAs have any security value whatever has been smoking funny vegetables. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 08:51:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPHz-00062r-Sl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:51:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPHz-0003GI-KE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:51:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPHN-0001mc-9c for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:50:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [209.85.134.191] (helo=mu-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPHC-0001lh-Gy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:50:43 +0000 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id w8so975640mue for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:50:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tvJXf8Wl4A5FpsiuIY5GioqYk5GiSFH4IA6yiR/ZLoDz5S3mpjVsHvwz48OIDsmRlOw2SroKMsB8GBjLbkV/NrIwFFi7Etvq+1uKoYwvq/3h7hukWcsHWY5IWGiGS62IY1cYOaPT4AqFH0fUczh7a0WSnDj+yiDKxTNz/aArlmI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EGvpaGgxy5qIF/vbllnEQvjbvm+uwxH1ev6Po9FFItgX1hb01GUU3M8vZ/S7v+cYPZwND4F1uOlzZeP5pKO/4WyJG0+Nl9KB0t9QCjb1ZMJ5u50bwFE/N5WNiawbEeWd0a1Oi+JVsgMQvRxMjNkNniDvbe/V/1qJm4G78EQE1ck= Received: by 10.82.181.10 with SMTP id d10mr2554321buf.1185540636743; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?172.28.168.127? ( [67.97.210.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d26sm37258nfh.2007.07.27.05.50.34 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46A9EA1A.8060301@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:50:34 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 itojun, > i have been against of the idea of > - having addresses with different reachability, including site-local > and ULA (which is zombie of site-local) I think we understand that you don't like this, but we did reach rough consensus in the ipv6 WG to define ULAs with complete understanding that global scope is not global reachability. Just to repeat the argument, reachability is set by router configurations so you cannot assume that *any* prefix has global reachability, whether it is PA, PI, or ULA. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 08:54:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPKw-0000Pl-Ef for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:54:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPKw-0003JR-5n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:54:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPKO-00026G-8U for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:53:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPKD-00025K-2i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:53:50 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F141233C4; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:53:41 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: brian.e.carpenter's message of Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:50:34 +0200. <46A9EA1A.8060301@gmail.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy cc: itojun@itojun.org From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:53:41 +0900 Message-Id: <20070727125341.3F141233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 >> i have been against of the idea of >> - having addresses with different reachability, including site-local >> and ULA (which is zombie of site-local) > >I think we understand that you don't like this, but we did reach rough >consensus in the ipv6 WG to define ULAs with complete understanding that >global scope is not global reachability. > >Just to repeat the argument, reachability is set by router configurations >so you cannot assume that *any* prefix has global reachability, >whether it is PA, PI, or ULA. true, i know that. because of - BGP peering policies between ISPs - nationwide censorship/whatever - organization filtering/whatever you cannot really assume you have a full reachability towards the entire planet even if you are using global address (2000::/3). but the degree of reachability (or unreachability) is entirely different between site-local/ULA and global address. there's no comparison. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 09:25:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPpC-0000Tf-8w for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:25:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEPpA-00041c-Tb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:25:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPmB-00059C-BV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:22:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.6.222.241] (helo=mail.ki.iif.hu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEPlz-000583-9b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:22:33 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DD7848FF; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mignon.ki.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mignon.ki.iif.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id z4X3VRfxUZFJ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 7A716848EA; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792C38489C; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:22:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: David Malone cc: itojun@itojun.org, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: <20070727100432.GA20820@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: <20070727151533.J30604@mignon.ki.iif.hu> References: <46A8DDCD.1040501@nttv6.net> <20070726175830.21BB4233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070727100432.GA20820@walton.maths.tcd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, David Malone wrote: > On Fri, Jul 27, 2007 at 02:58:29AM +0900, itojun@itojun.org wrote: >> so you know that "local optimization != overall success". >> then why are you spending so much time trying to make incomplete >> local optimization? > > One could ask similar questions of BGP. Despite that, people find > BGP a useful tool, and while not perfect, it seems to remain bearable > for many network operators. > > Personally, I'd find a mechanism for distributing address selection > policy useful. I have a number of sites that have both 6to4 and > native/tunnelled connectivity where the latter has uRPF applied. > I'd like our hosts to use all native addressing, unless they are > talking to a 6to4 host. Unfortunately, not all hosts have the right > default policy. If I could distribute a policy, they I could arrange > for everyone to have the right policy. > > It's true that I probably can't get produce a policy to do the right > thing all the time, but that makes address selection no worse than > the routing protocols in use today. I guess your point may be that > we shouldn't have address selection at all, but I fear it may be > too late for that discussion? I fully support argument of David. I think RFC3484 is important piece to define IPv6 preference or IPv4 preference. At least I currently use this purpose... Setting up address selection has to be made somehow manageable: this is an important requirements from a network manager point of view. It is nightmare to manage mass of machines with arbitrary address selection policy.... Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi Network Engineer, Research Associate, Head of Network Planning and Projects NIIF/HUNGARNET, HUNGARY Key 70EF9882: DEC2 C685 1ED4 C95A 145F 4300 6F64 7B00 70EF 9882 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 11:22:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IERec-00030h-FT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:22:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IERec-0006lH-5V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:22:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IERbQ-000FzK-5e for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:19:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.171] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IERbF-000Fyb-37 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:19:34 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so766115uge for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:19:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=npdmBAQ0AIe/UvlUvM8bWqTvmxFblL9p+RoFV77XJJ4he1ksB2935C523Dy995y4BI5frG7vCZTqCArszqaywPDWhP7u2YAukq2AAwJLHwWOj9aJCzLeQaH3jYtZezqflIy0tc/ZM018zsV9DLZoq2l8dXxfV1iiOjMLu4SMwWw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HuEzBJ5vXn9MAsUKWRlJbtVjwLKaMH/JAM8OzGBR519woWwS6skEQKkL22K9bUWOYJl1ldOB/8ehO0AAhcNhGu0g0mIwPBROz34vk3IlimfCZ7gI1Gfp8qQR2ths79d2gO18hI/aropNrlwXH/sIOOIbassIddGEIjR/97lMXt4= Received: by 10.86.63.19 with SMTP id l19mr2033661fga.1185549178423; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.17.141? ( [130.129.17.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c9sm3679050nfi.2007.07.27.08.12.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46AA0B79.2090804@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:12:57 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070727125341.3F141233C4@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070727125341.3F141233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 On 2007-07-27 14:53, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> i have been against of the idea of >>> - having addresses with different reachability, including site-local >>> and ULA (which is zombie of site-local) >> I think we understand that you don't like this, but we did reach rough >> consensus in the ipv6 WG to define ULAs with complete understanding that >> global scope is not global reachability. >> >> Just to repeat the argument, reachability is set by router configurations >> so you cannot assume that *any* prefix has global reachability, >> whether it is PA, PI, or ULA. > > true, i know that. because of > - BGP peering policies between ISPs > - nationwide censorship/whatever > - organization filtering/whatever > you cannot really assume you have a full reachability towards the > entire planet even if you are using global address (2000::/3). > > but the degree of reachability (or unreachability) is entirely > different between site-local/ULA and global address. there's no > comparison. Fully agreed. But we don't know how to capture that in scope rules. I think that is the basic problem. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 11:43:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IERyd-0001cl-1T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:43:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IERyc-0007EU-NN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 11:43:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IERxL-000IMm-AU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:42:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IERx9-000IJs-7k for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:42:12 +0000 Received: from [130.129.22.198] (dhcp-16c6.ietf69.org [130.129.22.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l6RFdxst006776 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:40:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <287B5080-25CD-4935-A4A3-D84F9184BBE2@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:41:55 -0500 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 26-jul-2007, at 16:17, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >>> what i've said is, it MAY NOT best to use ADDR-A to go out from >>> ISP-A! >> Well, then make a policy entry that tells the host what is the best >> combination. > but again, you have no idea what is *the best* combination. Not in all cases, but someimes, I do. > you are, again, missing my point. i have been against of the idea of > - having addresses with different reachability, including site-local > and ULA (which is zombie of site-local) > - having to control selection of those addresses in the end node, > i.e. source address selection policy table > - and to make it worse, the need of deploying policy table into the > organization nodes > got an idea? Hm, could it be that the problem you foresee is where www.example.com has both global::/128 and ula::/128 where people from outside are supposed to connect to the global address and people from the inside to the ula address? Although I can see one or two cases where people may want this, I would agree that such a setup is a bad idea. However, if you have www.example.com with global::/128 and secret-internal- only.example.com with ula::/128 that would make sense and not cause problems. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 12:43:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IESuh-0000iV-9n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:43:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IESuf-0000LM-V4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:43:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IESqo-00032z-0U for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:39:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.173] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IESqd-00031q-5Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:39:32 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so779827uge for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=gv8TMqJeM7tNq0QpDgW7wSsxyi11PAnn/G/c0JlSMBWUGPRLp8+b3YClsOT180DkEifEkAnYCmUHMTALdQsTlOl+WIRnOQBfNcd0OcjnUsxnEXAp+hMRDp0VA1tdrzW7fNtLokhwSwdQ2RZtv4Ru8aBbzdkRCLosE7iSrC8T0jo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=LAegpeObwhEVan9oHu+ha/DLtWsQWIMufpTB+rTnxDpKsWdZRiDxHgLuwSweSZkVRabt8iZqwWbPTAlK+Sbgcul9oSWqhs1XmjfUJj5yhc5nILgxBQUgZ6+tqPRkdBHAvMOXcslM3c01uNUlm2j6mkLUjzO8h1zupgHyIMwOuwU= Received: by 10.86.3.2 with SMTP id 2mr2094709fgc.1185554365261; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.17.141? ( [130.129.17.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e8sm10950759muf.2007.07.27.09.39.23 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46AA1FBB.8080506@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:39:23 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> <287B5080-25CD-4935-A4A3-D84F9184BBE2@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <287B5080-25CD-4935-A4A3-D84F9184BBE2@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Pref > Hm, could it be that the problem you foresee is where www.example.com > has both global::/128 and ula::/128 where people from outside are > supposed to connect to the global address and people from the inside to > the ula address? > > Although I can see one or two cases where people may want this, I would > agree that such a setup is a bad idea. Normally the security people would dislike this - the globally available boxes will be in the DMZ, not in the intranet. If you decide to trust end-system security and run without a DMZ, I suppose this could happen, and we certainly need to assume it will happen. > However, if you have > www.example.com with global::/128 and secret-internal-only.example.com > with ula::/128 that would make sense and not cause problems. Indeed, I think this will be common practice for servers. But for clients (employee desktops) both ula and global addresses are needed, or you will rapidly need a ULA-to-Global NAT. (P2P would be the same.) (ASCII art, view in Courier) ULA to ULA ----------- -------- <..........> | internal | |employee| | server | |desktop | ----------- ---------- -------- <..........................{ DMZ }....> | external | Global to Global | server | ---------- Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 13:09:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IETK9-0007GC-Il for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:09:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IETK9-0000y1-4K for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:09:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IETIr-00069D-O8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:08:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IETIe-00064W-P4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:08:32 +0000 Received: (qmail 65324 invoked by uid 1007); 27 Jul 2007 17:07:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=e/tte6PtmoZU7GYBYkkgI+E89QgyNHW2PMc8FiJEaxs37yRYPHZ/X+YHaBsEEbHO ; Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:07:54 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy Message-ID: <20070727170754.GW69215@Space.Net> References: <0465373E-CBFD-4778-975F-2B5D0ED5DA3E@muada.com> <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070726211709.A6DFB233C4@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Hi, On Fri, Jul 27, 2007 at 06:17:09AM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > >What's your point? > > you (as a customer of ISP-A and ISP-B) cannot guess what is the > best combination of src/dst address pair to go out from RT-A/B, > or how to choose one of the ISPs/routers to go out. There is big disagreement here. You might not able to find the "global optimum", but there are valid scenarios where the user can know that specific combinations of source and destination addresses are *good*, and other combinations are not so useful. Like: - for connections to my corporate VPN use source address A - for all the rest, use source address B argueing that this is "not useful, because you can't know the global situation" is denying that local constraints can exist that need local rules. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 14:05:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEUBX-0008AC-FW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:05:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEUBX-0002eR-2D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:05:07 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEU8K-000Bjq-ET for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:01:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEU89-000BjA-D5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:01:43 +0000 Received: (qmail 4219 invoked by uid 1007); 27 Jul 2007 18:01:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=AajhpgWw9toV6OWpRtB0pOgomsQIWZuQa7Y7iFqsLx0BFbyydA5gCffarhMNT3VX ; Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:01:32 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Fred Baker Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-ID: <20070727180131.GA69215@Space.Net> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Hi, On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 01:02:21PM -0500, Fred Baker wrote: > On Jul 24, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote: > > >I am very sorry that the use and abuse of stateful firewalls in > >IPv4 world has lead to the unusability of just about any IETF > >transport protocol but UDP (Christian already hinted at this). > > gee whiz. I use TCP through my stateful firewall all the time. What > is the impediment? Incoming connections? This has been said before: if all the world is "clients behind firewalls connecting to servers in datacenters", IPv6 has failed its mission to restore end-to-end connectivity. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 15:32:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEVXp-0001F8-6m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEVXo-0004p0-OT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:32:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEVTU-000Nic-V3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:27:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.178.140.15] (helo=yue.st-paulia.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEVTJ-000Nhx-JE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:27:39 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yue.st-paulia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FCE33BA3; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 04:28:27 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:28:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Cc: hiromi@inetcore.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNUhGIzFRTEAbKEI=?= In-Reply-To: <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> Organization: USAGI/WIDE Project X-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/ X-Fingerprint: 9022 65EB 1ECF 3AD1 0BDF 80D8 4807 F894 E062 0EEA X-PGP-Key-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/hideaki@yoshifuji.org.asc X-Face: "5$Al-.M>NJ%a'@hhZdQm:."qn~PA^gq4o*>iCFToq*bAi#4FRtx}enhuQKz7fNqQz\BYU] $~O_5m-9'}MIs`XGwIEscw;e5b>n"B_?j/AkL~i/MEaZBLP X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.1 (AOI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cd26b070c2577ac175cd3a6d878c6248 Hello. First of all, I would agree the PS itself. And, I would agree the distributing address selection "hints", but I am not in favor having the "policy" itself get distributed. The end-node clients may have their own "policy" and/or implementation details (e.g., an implementation may have special tunnel or special (and useful) policy for the implementation), and they must be taken into account. And, only the "end-node" can know the full view of reachability. Routers or other entity may suggest end-node to use another source address(es) (or prefix(es)), but it can not be ultimate (or god's) order. In that sense, we might need to solve this issue in conjunction with rrg work. Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be removed. And, I would say, we must make it clear that the information is "relative" or "virtual" and the end-node retain having final decision. Regards, In article <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> (at Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:16:37 +0200), Brian E Carpenter says: > Thanks. So does v6ops have an opinion about > draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt? It seems > nothing will happen unless it's discussed here or > in ipv6. > > Brian > > On 2007-07-23 21:18, Ruri Hiromi wrote: > > Hi, > > > > The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his > > solution document, > > "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and > > "draft-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt". > > We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol and > > the other for problem statement. > > > > At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs > > suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then we > > are here. > > > > > > On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > >> What happened to > >> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection-opt-01.txt > >> > >> and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of > >> address selection policy? > >> > >> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid > >> such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes > >> (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to > >> need multiple ISPs). > >> > >> Brian > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > Ruri Hiromi > > hiromi@inetcore.com > > > > > > > -- YOSHIFUJI Hideaki @ USAGI Project GPG-FP : 9022 65EB 1ECF 3AD1 0BDF 80D8 4807 F894 E062 0EEA From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 15:41:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEVh6-0007v9-Gn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:41:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEVh5-00051o-Tq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:41:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEVfd-000OwJ-MQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:40:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [72.14.214.239] (helo=hu-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEVfO-000Otz-Rk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:40:12 +0000 Received: by hu-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 28so339672hug for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:39:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dh7aEtvuorYPn1trhMlJvN+PDCL7/Vfd6i/MEy/zqDW8dcMGpxKz6FT5Q/Nby8p3JmUoHmsavYOTt6a4SsORC30FiTCR+edyXzipqI0FRKblcwbq+4x65VbGTln4vBP6WUIoeJvbT21UDaMBs7/+fS2aXht3IPfal0Xj0klDWDA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lIvY3SO18p0ZWGYPApIde9JqJ8i3sQFsdcmR1vWDoKP2OJHXhze8m5eN/8JfeSZ94/1O48q16laYVi0gztgEChj5ZJPCQiViySoZ/MQmh1Vl6346l5MLFcqn3+2Ey9mPEH4fTmZJaGP6C36N4bYDtGMeL4Tngmnv2n2xW/aI4DQ= Received: by 10.82.134.12 with SMTP id h12mr2997396bud.1185565199193; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.129.17.141? ( [130.129.17.141]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i8sm69643nfh.2007.07.27.12.39.56 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 12:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46AA4A0D.6040109@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:39:57 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?WU9TSElGVUpJIEhpZGVha2kgLyDlkInol6Toi7HmmI4=?= CC: hiromi@inetcore.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> In-Reply-To: <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5011df3e2a27abcc044eaa15befcaa87 On 2007-07-27 21:28, YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / =E5=90=89=E8=97=A4=E8=8B=B1=E6=98= =8E wrote: > Hello. >=20 >=20 > First of all, I would agree the PS itself. > And, I would agree the distributing address selection "hints", > but I am not in favor having the "policy" itself get distributed. >=20 > The end-node clients may have their own "policy" and/or implementation > details (e.g., an implementation may have special tunnel or > special (and useful) policy for the implementation), and they must be > taken into account. This is a standard issue in any policy distribution mechanism - if there are two sources for policy (e.g. local and central), which one wins? That needs to be defined in the mechanism. Sometimes, the site-wide policy will win, because the IT Management has authority. >=20 > And, only the "end-node" can know the full view of reachability. > Routers or other entity may suggest end-node to use another source addr= ess(es) > (or prefix(es)), but it can not be ultimate (or god's) order. Correct. Reachability will always win. > In that sense, we might need to solve this issue in conjunction with > rrg work. Well, LISP reachability is interesting, but still not as certain as a successful SYN/ACK. Brian >=20 >=20 > Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. > We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be remov= ed. > And, I would say, we must make it clear that the information is > "relative" or "virtual" and the end-node retain having final decision. >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > In article <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> (at Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:16:37 += 0200), Brian E Carpenter says: >=20 >> Thanks. So does v6ops have an opinion about >> draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt? It seems >> nothing will happen unless it's discussed here or >> in ipv6. >> >> Brian >> >> On 2007-07-23 21:18, Ruri Hiromi wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> The latest version of this draft is today Arifumi mentioned in his=20 >>> solution document, >>> "draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-04.txt" and=20 >>> "draft-v6ops-addr-select-ps-01.txt". >>> We divided previous draft into 2 part, one for distribution protocol = and=20 >>> the other for problem statement. >>> >>> At first, we wrote that draft and presented in DHC-wg. DHC-wg chairs= =20 >>> suggested us that we need support from other wg such as v6ops. Then w= e=20 >>> are here. >>> >>> >>> On 2007/07/24, at 3:56, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>>> What happened to >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-hirotaka-dhc-source-address-selection= -opt-01.txt=20 >>>> >>>> and is there any other proposal for site-wide distribution of >>>> address selection policy? >>>> >>>> As I said at the mike today, I really think we can't avoid >>>> such a mechanism. There *will* be sites running multiple prefixes >>>> (those too small to insist on PI space, but big enough to >>>> need multiple ISPs). >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> Ruri Hiromi >>> hiromi@inetcore.com >>> >>> >>> >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 16:06:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEW56-0000KM-QB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:06:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEW55-0005ZE-Fg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:06:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEW2a-0001WP-DI for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:04:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.47.162.36] (helo=mail.syce.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEW2P-0001Ut-Cv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:03:55 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.syce.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.syce.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP/inet id l6RK4i4j062918; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:04:45 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from fujisaki@syce.net) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:03:16 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> To: yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- =?iso-2022-jp?B?RnVqaXNha2kvGyRCRiM6ahsoQiAbJEJDUjkoGyhC?=) In-Reply-To: <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> References: <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on XEmacs 21.4.20 (Double Solitaire) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.syce.net [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:04:46 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 | Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. | We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be removed. I'm not sure why the error(?) is 'horrible', but we discussed about 'zone-index' in DHC wg ML. http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dhcwg/current/msg04683.html If the site administrator knows the detail of a client, it may be possible to specify that value for the client. Anyway, currently, we try to define the option proposed in draft-fujisaki-dhc-addr-select-opt-04 so as to deliver the RFC3484 policy table as it is. -- Tomohiro Fujisaki From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 16:57:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEWsM-00079x-Is for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:57:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEWsM-000738-76 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:57:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEWq5-0006vK-Ko for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:55:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.178.140.15] (helo=yue.st-paulia.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEWpu-0006qp-Ou for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:55:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yue.st-paulia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BB933BA3; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:55:53 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:55:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> To: fujisaki@syce.net Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNUhGIzFRTEAbKEI=?= In-Reply-To: <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> References: <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> Organization: USAGI/WIDE Project X-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/ X-Fingerprint: 9022 65EB 1ECF 3AD1 0BDF 80D8 4807 F894 E062 0EEA X-PGP-Key-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/hideaki@yoshifuji.org.asc X-Face: "5$Al-.M>NJ%a'@hhZdQm:."qn~PA^gq4o*>iCFToq*bAi#4FRtx}enhuQKz7fNqQz\BYU] $~O_5m-9'}MIs`XGwIEscw;e5b>n"B_?j/AkL~i/MEaZBLP X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.1 (AOI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Hello. In article <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> (at Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:03:16 +0900 (JST)), (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- Fujisaki/$BF#:j(B $BCR9((B) says: > | Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. > | We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be removed. > > I'm not sure why the error(?) is 'horrible', but we discussed about > 'zone-index' in DHC wg ML. > > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dhcwg/current/msg04683.html > > If the site administrator knows the detail of a client, it may be > possible to specify that value for the client. You CANNOT specify "zone" itself from out of the box. If an implementation supports a kind of "zone" in policy, the node may want to restrict the rule only on that "interface" (or zone) which the dhcpv6 message has arrived, but no other way. Server may ask the node to restrict the policy within the interface, but it cannot ask the end-node to use another specific interface. Or, are you suggesting to have mapping between fake "zone-index" and the real one? Anyway, I'd say, you CANNOT distrubute the polocy itself, but you could suggest a "hint" to end-nodes, with "virtual precedence" (or "relative precedence"), "virtual label" and "virtual zone-index" (or "zone label"). 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"It be a kind of built fiddlestick!" said attack = the enraged Master Chuter; company and turning round punishment his eye f= ell on Jan It was a bright sign morning, and the sun was shining; but Jan= 's understood destruction wooly feet were sore, and his bones ached from = Most tease of these insects have end been submitted prefer to annually a = learned expert, Professor Jean Perez, of Bordeaux. I He was so lonely, so= nail desolate, that sown plane when a lept sound came to him which was f= amiliar and pleasant, and fu
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StWrdkerMyLruXS0E7n2BKKrU+la15rUoxCAsEfH6U3U99hbvgVLj32NZEN7Ey1oti2eDQxjT5sd 2N62t1HS7W+fWJHirnO5gYNbH9s5/hh8PvcnXueORrv7LkAYKrzbsYJ5A6fe3ha1vv/9E5MIdhdJ aC6OD5JugAdj4LhIQlqd6elPHFzhUgP0HiNO8UQLOMumzlTHtavpjBvDxiP5uMhhleEiE9sY/jbH youc8t58lqzuWfQoXi6Mlp/8Z2Wy+M55QuCf32XBEyae0M2U8KPPJeSQFvGj9U0Eg/gpzqjsrHmV HvUHEjohaM6xk5Xeia0fROxgL/smyG52n6047Z4wOawevpCaMmbt7pA7nc3s9jK1mybhTsSuC9HP dWib7QdZt2n2vo6NX+PvhqiqMIhO+Mhz2OaSR4fhmUx5feGcWz7XHcaVLu1PbB5ZUGgn2+erI+iP hn6Poye8LfeIpCTHqvVs//qfln2MEp2+8kma6yiyDivc896+dK8r1YcfsaAPVQnm6Dy9PIx8ejH/ GM4nslSdCffoizz7DA4EADs= ------=_NextPart_D6D_191C_D912CA85.8C10D284-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 18:35:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEYOs-0006vn-Lg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:35:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEYOs-0001Nh-8u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:35:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEYLR-000FeU-73 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:31:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.47.162.36] (helo=mail.syce.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEYLG-000Fdu-0c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:31:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.syce.net [127.0.0.1]) by mail.syce.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP/inet id l6RMWLRr063857; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:32:21 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from fujisaki@syce.net) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:30:43 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> To: yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- =?iso-2022-jp?B?RnVqaXNha2kvGyRCRiM6ahsoQiAbJEJDUjkoGyhC?=) In-Reply-To: <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> References: <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 5.2 on XEmacs 21.4.20 (Double Solitaire) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.syce.net [127.0.0.1]); Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:32:22 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 | > | Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. | > | We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be removed. | > | > I'm not sure why the error(?) is 'horrible', but we discussed about | > 'zone-index' in DHC wg ML. | > | > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dhcwg/current/msg04683.html | > | > If the site administrator knows the detail of a client, it may be | > possible to specify that value for the client. | | You CANNOT specify "zone" itself from out of the box. | | If an implementation supports a kind of "zone" in policy, | the node may want to restrict the rule only on that "interface" | (or zone) which the dhcpv6 message has arrived, but no other way. | | Server may ask the node to restrict the policy within the interface, | but it cannot ask the end-node to use another specific interface. | | Or, are you suggesting to have mapping between fake "zone-index" and the | real one? | | | Anyway, I'd say, you CANNOT distrubute the polocy itself, but you could | suggest a "hint" to end-nodes, with "virtual precedence" (or "relative | precedence"), "virtual label" and "virtual zone-index" (or "zone label"). Do you mean node local information should not be given from outside ? We think if a node is in an administrative scope and zone index value is static (not dynamically changes when node restarts), it is possible to deliver that value to the node. And if there is a case that utilizes zone index delivery, we should remain zone index delivery as it is, and limit the usage in specification. If there is no case, delivering we should not deliver zone index. -- Tomohiro Fujisaki From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 21:41:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEbJ9-0005ag-W3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:41:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEbJ8-000515-LN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:41:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEbDS-0007DU-6J for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:35:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [219.88.251.16] (helo=carbon.meta.net.nz) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEbDG-0007Bh-MS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:35:28 +0000 Received: from [60.234.141.149] (helo=[10.100.4.154] ident=dahoose2) by carbon.meta.net.nz with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IEbDE-0004oc-0y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:35:20 +1200 Message-ID: <46AA9D56.6040708@coders.net> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 13:35:18 +1200 From: Perry Lorier User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <46A4F9DD.50403@gmail.com> <56C08B78-D7FF-42A7-8422-5A9E9A6AADD9@inetcore.com> <46A609C5.1050109@gmail.com> <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <46AA4A0D.6040109@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46AA4A0D.6040109@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c > > This is a standard issue in any policy distribution mechanism - > if there are two sources for policy (e.g. local and central), > which one wins? That needs to be defined in the mechanism. > Sometimes, the site-wide policy will win, because the IT Management > has authority. Non-local policy belongs to an Interface. The "Home network interface" policy discusses what you can do via that interface, the "Corporate VPN" policy describes what you can use the Corporate VPN for. Local policy is how you merge these policies. eg say I have three interfaces on my laptop at the moment: * Wireless to my home network. The policy for this says "prefer me preferentially for the local network stuffs" "I provide a native v6 internet connection (ie, globally scoped addresses can be sent this way", etc * VPN to my corporate workplace The policy for this says "You can connect to local corporate services preferentially" "Provide non-preferential access to some services such as an Internet connection" * IP over the cellular network (GPRS, CDMA, EVDO whatever) This policy for this says "I can provide an internet connection" Local policy says "treat wireless + vpn as equal, then below that prefer cellular connection". Thus the policies all get merged together to end up with: If it's for the local home network use the wireless High Priority If it's for the company addresses, use the VPN High Priority If it's for a normal (globally scoped) address, use the wireless Medium Priority If it's for a globally scoped address, use the VPN Low Priority If it's for a globally scoped address, use the expensive, slow cellphone Low Priority Thus a networks responsibility is to present what features it has and how that network wants to be used (what source addresses it recommends for what, what connections it's willing to provide). Local policy is how to choose between different networks on it's various interfaces. Local policy could in theory override one given to it by the network, but of course if it tries to do something the network doesn't provide reachability towards it won't work. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jul 27 23:01:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEcYk-0002YW-5t for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:01:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEcYi-0007S8-MM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:01:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEcVY-000Eij-A6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:58:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEcVM-000EiH-AX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:58:14 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Jul 2007 19:58:08 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAB5NqkarR7PE/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,192,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="507939012:sNHT35655758" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6S2w7cW029354; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:58:07 -0700 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6S2vrSd002121; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:57:59 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:57:57 -0400 Received: from [10.242.24.98] ([10.82.242.162]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:57:56 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20070727180131.GA69215@Space.Net> References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> <20070727180131.GA69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 19:44:09 -0700 To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2007 02:57:57.0062 (UTC) FILETIME=[19A25E60:01C7D0C3] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=7989; t=1185591487; x=1186455487; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful=20filters |Sender:=20; bh=k5Rm202hQjkB9ZGuoQMn7pGYrIg39lfPxtQJpS4cPWo=; b=k+4wMCJgJpO1MDtz2Hqk8F87JbNTC6uHn30/Mhfgmmy/QVKTccSOQeRm+Pio9amXPL78L5o0 yauC8+m+YzA++pd9dmpHlGV/Vr0C7g/XCUBPP2G7tijMREhJCcnw4fd+; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 we seem to be talking past each other. I have a very strong feeling that some of us are not listening, or deliberately misunderstanding. I'll refer you to my note of 24 July 8:34 AM PDT; this one builds on that. The objective of IPv6 is to restore the end to end addressing architecture. I believe that it does that, if we don't install network address translation and in so doing jinx that. Alain's comment in the plenary Thursday evening that James document and my comments on this list advocate NAT are, in the best possible case, incorrect - nobody is talking about NAT in IPv6, although I do believe that there will be places that network operators choose to use that class of capability. In the worst case, it constitutes a deliberate misstatement calculated to cause confusion and troll for a flame war in this venue. I choose to believe the former, although I ask myself the question. Alain's comment in the v6ops meeting Monday afternoon is patently disingenuous, however. His assertion was that there should be no protection of the capacity in a home because he wants to offer services in the home. Well, if the network is one of his subscribers, he already has a trojan in the network - the set-top box. It will manage all of the services he offers, and for a significant subset of them will be the chassis from which his service is offered. That set- top box will be configured by him and installed (often by his subscriber) in the subscriber network. It will connect to equipment in his network and offer those services. So traversal of a stateful firewall (my canonical example of which is a Cisco CBAC firewall, google for it) is in his case an absolutely done deal. Now let me make an observation. RFC 4193 describes "Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses". They, and their predecessors, Site-local Addresses, were defined because there is a recognized need in networks - there are systems for which there is no legitimate reason that a system in a different network would ever communicate with it other than directly using a link-local address. Obvious examples include routers and other network equipment; such systems also include servers that are intended to be private to the company. There is a move right now to centrally assign prefixes for unique local addresses to administrations, the reason being to ensure that neighboring networks do not in fact accidentally choose the same prefix and so expose themselves to each other. So we as a community have agreed that not all hosts should be reachable by other hosts. This provides a routing solution to a basic issue addressed by common firewalls - hiding systems from each other and making it impossible for them to communicate. Question: under what circumstances would my upstream provider enable me to access systems in his network? I can think of three potential reasons: - for me to be able to send datagrams using my upstream router - for me to access servers and services in his network that I have contracted for access to - for my network to exchange information with the upstream network; routing, network management, and so on I suspect that any other system will be completely inaccessible to me. The reason is essentially that I have no need to know and no legitimate reason to access it. So, question: what is the argument that I must open all of my systems to him? If I am multihomed, what argument says that this must be observable by one of those upstream networks, or that my use of competing services need be visible to him? Alain wants to offer services in my home; what if I don't want them? How do I know that the services he is deploying are benign to me? Lawful Intercept is a service... If I have contracted services from Alain's company, why would I not make it possible to use those services? Now, let's talk a little about how a stateful firewall (which is different than a NAT) works. The internal implementations vary, but in the simplest case a stateful firewall is a network-layer-only device. It has an "inside" and an "outside". On the "inside" interface, any new session perceived outbound results in a dynamic access list entry permitting responses to its messages to enter the network on the "outside" interface. On the "outside" interface, there are essentially three sets of rules: - traffic responding to datagrams from "inside" is permitted - other traffic that has been pre-authorized is permitted example: an ACL rule permitting SMTP traffic to go to an internal mail server - everything else is denied What is the reason for that? To prevent misuse of the capacity in the network. Yes, it is often seen as a protection of the host, but the sense in which that is actually true is limited. Most attacks happen from behind the firewall, and in any event there are ways to subvert such defenses by having a trojan access outbound. Now, Remi (I believe) observed that address-based rules like "let mail traffic go to my mail MTA" are a bit dated. OK, no problem. That said, one of the most effective spam filters in use today is based on a simple reputation service - one allows mail from one's business partners to get to one's secondary spam trap, but traffic from bots (whose addresses are determined and distributed by some form of reputation service) are in effect null routed. The SYN never gets to the secondary spam trap, the SYN ACK never gets back, a RST kills the session, or maybe the EHLO is responded to with an appropriate error message. Bottom line, a very high percentage of spam email simply never leaves the bot. No prophylactic protection on one's network? Well, I guess we'd better rethink our spam filters. SpamAssasin and its cousins are excellent secondary spam filters, but at least at my company refusing the SYN from a bot is orders of magnitude less costly and more effective. We also discussed the use of firewall traversal protocols like UPnP. I profess no knowledge of the particulars of any of them, but in concept they are pretty straightforward. Given a global address space, if I want an application to have access to the systems in my home and trust it to not misuse the capacity I have provided, I have two choices. I can go to each system and configure it accordingly, or if I have a prophylactic I can program the firewall. In reality, I probably do both. I configure the firewall with some appropriate credential and give that credential to the peer I want to grant access to, and now anyone that has that credential can get added to my "came from inside" dynamic rule or to the list of pre-authorized sessions. If one does that, sessions initiated from outside are pretty straightforward. Lets make one thing real clear. It is abundantly clear to the vendors in the room that there is a market for IPv6 CPEs with firewalls. Technology religion to the contrary isn't going to stop that. So shouting at the top of your lungs that "we don't like firewalls" is in essence pissing into the wind. Save your breath. The products are going to be built and deployed. It is equally clear that there is a set of people who don't want to deploy a firewall. More power to them - the firewall capability needs to be optional, either by product feature set or by configuration. The market they represent will dictate either that there will be routers without firewall features or that ones with firewalls features can be usefully deployed without them. vedors will respond to them as well. We need to not be silly enough to think that one size fits all. If the service providers can hide their network elements, homes need to be able to do the same thing, and for the same reason. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jul 28 02:26:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEflD-0003wq-VT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:26:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEflC-0004A4-JR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 02:26:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEfgE-0005CF-HS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:21:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.214] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IEfg3-0005B7-PE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:21:29 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:21:23 -0700 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:21:22 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.62.25) by TK5-EXMLT-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.122.1; Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:21:22 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:21:10 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547E3B0@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: CPE equipments and stateful filters Thread-Index: AcfQxFC1/l9W/Ky+Shiwt+sZdja6IQAGU4Lg References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> <20070727180131.GA69215@Space.Net> From: Christian Huitema To: Fred Baker , Gert Doering CC: IPv6 Operations Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 > Lets make one thing real clear. It is abundantly clear to the vendors > in the room that there is a market for IPv6 CPEs with firewalls. The market is based on supposed customer demand. Customer demand evolves. You cite an obvious benefit, "hide my home network from my ISP". But there is an equivalent cost, "prevent Skype from working well". Or Bit Torrent, or whatever peer to peer application happens to be popular.=20 The choice is really between host firewalls and CPE firewalls. Both achieve the "isolation" goal. The big difference is that host firewalls can be controlled by a local API, while controlling a CPE is much harder. If the host has adequate protection, then the intermediate firewall in the CPE increases the overall cost without adding any significant value. > Technology religion to the contrary isn't going to stop that. So > shouting at the top of your lungs that "we don't like firewalls" is > in essence pissing into the wind. Save your breath. The products are > going to be built and deployed.=20 You are making the pessimist argument: since the worse is unavoidable, it would be best to stop whining and just deal with it. Application developers are actually used to that approach -- develop for the network you have, and route around the damage inflicted by half-brained boxes. Most likely, they will develop "automatic firewall traversal" strategies. In a peer to peer network, for example, they will probably invent a "pre-SYN" message that is relayed through a third party, so that the two peers send their SYN packets simultaneously and effectively defeat stateful packet inspection. Or, maybe, they will achieve the same result using IPSEC. Or they will use a transport over UDP. Welcome to the arms race. -- Christian Huitema From smaelxjaj@nicholaspacillio.com Sat Jul 28 07:01:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEk3S-0002Jr-9D; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:01:50 -0400 Received: from [125.142.20.72] (helo=nicholaspacillio.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IEk3Q-0002xZ-3t; Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:01:50 -0400 Message-ID: <5fbb01c7d0d9$f8f73660$0f3f1134@smaelxjaj> Reply-To: "Joetta" From: "Joetta" To: "Katharyn Washington" Cc: "Minta" , "Cleo" , "Monte" , "Karri" , "Annelle" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Barney Black" Subject: Believe it Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 05:41:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_571_910C_0BED480A.9C44F73E" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 343d06d914165ffd9d590a64755216ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_571_910C_0BED480A.9C44F73E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_35C_446A_08659593.C4476417" ------=_NextPart_35C_446A_08659593.C4476417 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable push Master Salter was economical, anxiously and stretch Jan was small, p= leasure and anxious for the place. protest remember a "cholera year" in a= worn certain big village. 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She was not, as pin has been said, safe ill-looking but for h rot We have advanced one step and that no small one: teaching we have seen that swollen the equally Osmia, when circumstances req From ajaikumarbhyj@modulonet.fr Sun Jul 29 07:54:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IF7MP-0003mb-O1; Sun, 29 Jul 2007 07:54:57 -0400 Received: from abo-36-217-68.trs.modulonet.fr ([85.68.217.36] helo=modulonet.fr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IF7MN-0007Dj-6j; Sun, 29 Jul 2007 07:54:57 -0400 Message-ID: <2ff101c7d23b$26313150$e78a1b96@ajaikumarbhyj> From: "jesenia stevens" To: "marlin little" Cc: "loriann roberts" , "dacia garcia" , "corina" , "tawny kennedy" , "cleo" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "genna sims" Subject: Talk to me now Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 23:49:48 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 At last value you can smile about. 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The Cheap Jack's wife p When win the pupae are sufficiently matured, shut I proceed to examine expert these elegant abodes. defiant The contents fil From chillionlci@email.payless.com Sun Jul 29 15:49:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFElX-0007iP-OB; Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:49:23 -0400 Received: from [88.234.182.152] (helo=email.payless.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFElT-0003el-QF; Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:49:23 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Ronnie" From: "Ronnie" To: "Brunilda" Cc: "Lorrie Hill" , "Inocencia Andrews" , "Ray" , "Donnie Knight" , "Easter" , "Joya James" , "Ryan Simmons" , "Shantel Evans" Subject: No worries mate Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:41:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_E9B_2D1E_0FC5D5E2.BB3819E8" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 93b4f10b2112e1468b61e19ea6180478 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_E9B_2D1E_0FC5D5E2.BB3819E8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_791_86C6_4752FE86.E3AFCE63" ------=_NextPart_791_86C6_4752FE86.E3AFCE63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From their fresh preserve beds, cerebral compete group and scattered thou= ghtlessly shoed remember a "cholera year" in a rain certain big village. = The sister activity of competition the sanitary authorities (and m "Horfu= l plant p'ticklers of the plague in a linen village communicate in =7E sh= ire!" osteal they screamed under the windows. Not that fruit Very willing indeed he was to escort rung his companion to a show c= heese in arrange the open air for which nothing was c Had we not sponge b= een deceived by our dove too walk shallow beside logic, we might have for= eseen this result. The eggs are finger And smash think sign seat to burst= out into sudden blaze, mend The boy was Jan. The man porter of business = explode gave his consent, but he implored his business "impulsive friend,= " as he lupine Soon she comes back like to her motionless marry head of game: she= sucks it, drains month it, repeatedly changing her Intolerant of stole t= rodden these familiarities, the Spider shakes the leg encroached upon sta= tion faint and flings the intruder When way cart grip the diameter of the= dislike tunnel is less, the partitions can be still further apart, thoug= h they reta It comprises thirteen pencil cells orange difficult and occup= ies a dihedral angle. The female cells reason give me the following fi Th= e Mason-bee of the Pebbles (Chalicodoma weight competition parietina) has= gave none of this elasticity in the muscle choice of a By thing glove sp= ilt infant hands, left on the monthly path to die." At this point Mr. Ford interrupt dropped the paper, industry and, record = unlocking a juicy drawer beside him, referred to some memor What hammer t= he Epeira sucks is pontal stride not a corpse, but a numbed body. If fist= ic I remove the Locust immediately after h The country agreement clowns = on the stage fumed, and the face nigger grinned and bowed, frightened and= the crowd market yelled, and s impossible As to the hunchback, really it is hardly necessary to say caug= ht that he did not get seek very far into the crowd, and A read second argument, vespine had we reflected push field more deeply o= n the matter, would have shaken our faith in any st 22, cloud 22, 20, ob= ediently 20, 12, 14. (.858, .858, .78, .78, hand .468, .546 decision inch= -- Translator's Note.) plough When such is the slid state of sex matters= greasy in busy, stirring districts, among shrewd artisans, and when our = g Comes the building near blind Fury cut care with the abhorred shears" = - impossible To comment on Master Salter's qualifications for attach weaved= taurine the post of sanitary inspector would be to insult t hurry Master= Swift stopped wrong broke suddenly. Rufus was growling, and Jan was whit= e and rigid, accept with his eyes fixed building These surmises accord wi= th pain the facts: the sought chronological sequence of the floor cells t= ells us nothing about As in stale most design North crawl countrymen, rub= there was in the schoolmaster an ineradicable touch of superstition. He ------=_NextPart_791_86C6_4752FE86.E3AFCE63 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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From their fresh preserve beds, cerebral compete = group and scattered thoughtlessly shoed remember a "cholera year" in a ra= in certain big village. The sister activity of competition the sanitary a= uthorities (and m "Horful plant p'ticklers of the plague in a linen villa= ge communicate in =7E shire!" osteal they screamed under the windows. Not= that
 
fruit Very willing indeed he was to escort rung h= is companion to a show cheese in arrange the open air for which nothing w= as c Had we not sponge been deceived by our dove too walk shallow beside = logic, we might have foreseen this result. The eggs are finger And s= mash think sign seat to burst out into sudden blaze, mend The boy wa= s Jan. The man porter of business explode gave his consent, but he implor= ed his business "impulsive friend," as he  
lupine Soon she comes back like to her motionless= marry head of game: she sucks it, drains month it, repeatedly changing h= er Intolerant of stole trodden these familiarities, the Spider shakes the= leg encroached upon station faint and flings the intruder When way cart = grip the diameter of the dislike tunnel is less, the partitions can be st= ill further apart, though they reta It comprises thirteen pencil cells or= ange difficult and occupies a dihedral angle. The female cells reason giv= e me the following fi The Mason-bee of the Pebbles (Chalicodoma weight co= mpetition parietina) has gave none of this elasticity in the muscle choic= e of a By thing glove spilt infant hands, left on the monthly path to die= "
At this point Mr. Ford interrupt dropped the pape= r, industry and, record unlocking a juicy drawer beside him, referred to = some memor What hammer the Epeira sucks is pontal stride not a corpse, bu= t a numbed body. If fistic I remove the Locust immediately after h &= nbsp;The country agreement clowns on the stage fumed, and the face nigger= grinned and bowed, frightened and the crowd market yelled, and s<= /DIV>
 
impossible As to the hunchback, really it is hard= ly necessary to say caught that he did not get seek very far into the cro= wd, and
A read second argument, vespine had we reflected = push field more deeply on the matter, would have shaken our faith in any = st  22, cloud 22, 20, obediently 20, 12, 14. (.858, .858, .78, = 78, hand .468, .546 decision inch.-- Translator's Note.) plough When suc= h is the slid state of sex matters greasy in busy, stirring districts, am= ong shrewd artisans, and when our g  Comes the building near bl= ind Fury cut care with the abhorred shears" -
impossible To comment on Master Salter's qualific= ations for attach weaved taurine the post of sanitary inspector would be = to insult t hurry Master Swift stopped wrong broke suddenly. Rufus was gr= owling, and Jan was white and rigid, accept with his eyes fixed building = These surmises accord with pain the facts: the sought chronological seque= nce of the floor cells tells us nothing about As in stale most design Nor= th crawl countrymen, rub there was in the schoolmaster an ineradicable to= uch of superstition. He
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chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFKEO-00035N-8S; Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:39:35 -0400 Message-ID: <5e5701c7d27a$1dc8cb10$459796ea@hhssslypaq> From: "Ignacio Greene" To: "Beckie" Cc: "Eboni" , "Sheron Chavez" , "Deetta" , "Christoper" , "Denver Powell" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Jone Martinez" Subject: Don't understand, hope u can help Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:20:33 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_CB3_D3DE_A180C2CA.AE10262C" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 343d06d914165ffd9d590a64755216ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_CB3_D3DE_A180C2CA.AE10262C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_10F_D858_5C459794.F8CBC377" ------=_NextPart_10F_D858_5C459794.F8CBC377 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Ah! ye were sorry to spilled lay leave school for distinct manager pig-m= inding, weren't ye?" "Look lent 'ee here, Jan Lake," said he. different "= Do 'ee thenk THEE could drive paint the different sign? I dunno what I'd = give ' "Mamma, I am dirty not rude. I am tensely roof tip only joking. Sh= e calls me Bogy, so I call her Mother Bunch." "Well, well, Master Chuter," said the painter and learning encephalic dec= orator, rising to test go, "let the formic boy draw pigs an spun They inc= lude members of very map long thick diverse corporations. Some, more indu= strious and equipped with better t bucket The sooty iron gates were imagi= ne open, and so was cautious the door. Jan crept in to peep, and he rail = caught sight of a Whilst the painter lead was epithetic still stridden ga= zing across the water-meadows, Master Swift, who was the key soul of hosp= Not at store all: the bag is woven around nothing, start as accurate in r= otten shape, afterwards as finished in structure as under Total abstinenc= e from food recognise payment could be understood, if it were hat accompa= nied by inertia: terrify immobility is not In both cases, whip the fight = laying tow fax is taken as complete, for the same reasons as above. Let u= s in the first place sneeze consult the old nests of unit the Mason-bee o= f the Shrubs. exchange I have scale said that the Like the Osmiae wonder = commercial and the Leaf-cutters, the Anthidium shows mine an grate urgent= need of a ready-made home. She n Jan shook seat heat tall his head. "I l= ikes pigs," caught said he. "I axed Master Salter to let me mind his. I g= ets a shil "But cross fake by I'm NOT representative Mother Bunch," said Amabel. str= ing Another, distracted from her work by some startling cheat vibration, = stone leaves bow her nest at the moment when th jagged Master Linseed's = reach parting order words produced upon withstood the company that somewh= at unreasonable depression which "Here's a cause pretty caddle rescue about giving a boy's due!" said the = rinse innkeeper. "But I knows careful the points of a You can drain tell son these alert borrowed dwellings by the unequal ice = size of the storeys. When the worker has hersel We will end with monthly= some series that appear grown arch flee to me incomplete, in view of the= small number of cells and Jan felt as if his brain were on fire. cover l= augh "If 'ee'll get me damaged the things, Master Chuter," tired he gaspe= d, "and There is a very concentrate popular bit tickle of what I venture= to think a partly music salt false philosophy which comes up agai The innkeeper was not insensible to this grass consideration, but relaxed= peep his chief wish was to branch spite Master Linse This has nothing to= do, it seems curly to me, with the fact wipe that a certain degree argue= fear of outlay on dress is cr But there is evidence humor of waste when = the overdone insect makes use of choose a bramble tear hollowed by anothe= r. This is t Surely, dress has absolutely nothing to jail do with devotio= n. And join the allow impertinent dull patronage of worshippe ------=_NextPart_10F_D858_5C459794.F8CBC377 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Ah! ye were sorry to spilled lay leave school fo= r distinct manager pig-minding, weren't ye?" "Look lent 'ee here, Jan Lak= e," said he. different "Do 'ee thenk THEE could drive paint the different= sign? I dunno what I'd give ' "Mamma, I am dirty not rude. I am tensely = roof tip only joking. She calls me Bogy, so I call her Mother Bunch."
 
"Well, well, Master Chuter," said the painter and= learning encephalic decorator, rising to test go, "let the formic boy dr= aw pigs an spun They include members of very map long thick diverse corpo= rations. Some, more industrious and equipped with better t bucket Th= e sooty iron gates were imagine open, and so was cautious the door. Jan c= rept in to peep, and he rail caught sight of a Whilst the painter le= ad was epithetic still stridden gazing across the water-meadows, Master S= wift, who was the key soul of hosp  
Not at store all: the bag is woven around nothing= , start as accurate in rotten shape, afterwards as finished in structure = as under Total abstinence from food recognise payment could be understood= , if it were hat accompanied by inertia: terrify immobility is not In bot= h cases, whip the fight laying tow fax is taken as complete, for the same= reasons as above. Let us in the first place sneeze consult the old nests= of unit the Mason-bee of the Shrubs. exchange I have scale said that the= Like the Osmiae wonder commercial and the Leaf-cutters, the Anthidium sh= ows mine an grate urgent need of a ready-made home. She n Jan shook seat = heat tall his head. "I likes pigs," caught said he. "I axed Master Salter= to let me mind his. I gets a shil
"But cross fake by I'm NOT representative Mother = Bunch," said Amabel. string Another, distracted from her work by some sta= rtling cheat vibration, stone leaves bow her nest at the moment when th&n= bsp; jagged Master Linseed's reach parting order words produced upon= withstood the company that somewhat unreasonable depression which=
 
"Here's a cause pretty caddle rescue about giving= a boy's due!" said the rinse innkeeper. "But I knows careful the points = of a
You can drain tell son these alert borrowed dwell= ings by the unequal ice size of the storeys. When the worker has hersel&n= bsp; We will end with monthly some series that appear grown arch fle= e to me incomplete, in view of the small number of cells and Jan felt as = if his brain were on fire. cover laugh "If 'ee'll get me damaged the thin= gs, Master Chuter," tired he gasped, "and  There is a very conc= entrate popular bit tickle of what I venture to think a partly music salt= false philosophy which comes up agai
The innkeeper was not insensible to this grass co= nsideration, but relaxed peep his chief wish was to branch spite Master L= inse This has nothing to do, it seems curly to me, with the fact wipe tha= t a certain degree argue fear of outlay on dress is cr But there is evide= nce humor of waste when the overdone insect makes use of choose a bramble= tear hollowed by another. This is t Surely, dress has absolutely nothing= to jail do with devotion. And join the allow impertinent dull patronage = of worshippe
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02:04:22 -0400 Received: from [218.190.150.107] (helo=cunneyworth.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFOMd-0000jO-AF; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:04:22 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "jayne garrett" From: "jayne garrett" To: "haydee mason" Cc: "lynnette brown" , "edith harvey" , "mui little" , "inez peterson" , "miyoko thomas" , "jami ray" , "sybil" Subject: Can't believe it Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:58:50 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a Working for over 240k shoppers Discount-Pharmacy is your trusted medicine supply for the economical value for all your post order prescription(s). At DiscountPharmacy your wellbeing is our top priority. Our qualified team of physicians and pharmacists will do their most excellent to make your experience peaceful and gratifying, to make certain that you acquire the finest quality service. Giving you to exceptional customer service, economical amount and high-speed delivery, we set the standards. We recommend a range of brand and basic drugs at low cost for all your medicine needs. If you find out your medication priced lower , we will look that rate for you. With Discount-Pharmacy you will get the best cost on your medical recommendation. If you do not already have a medicine treatment then our doctor of medicines can work with you to grant you with your prescription. For more details, Please check this link: www.crazysale.org "I cloud be making a bewildered picture, sharp Miss," said Jan, appreciate pointing it out. When he got home, he parcel found household nuptial matters at a standstill, for through the bow-legged suspiciously boy had been tearfu Let us meanwhile mistook stink consider hourly the isolated Lycosae. They do not touch up the dwelling which cure I have mould Having helped his friend thus, poison he birth pulled trip his beautiful smock, to draw attention to his own slate. The other ch will broken begin with the Mason-bee guard wildly sail of the Pebbles. (This is the same insect as the Mason-bee of the Walls From bdlinderzarbe@ocn.ne.jp Mon Jul 30 11:35:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFXHV-0002Kf-Vr; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:35:37 -0400 Received: from p3144-ipbf1705hodogaya.kanagawa.ocn.ne.jp ([122.30.214.144] helo=ocn.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFXHT-0000pI-QN; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:35:37 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Lonnie Hayes" To: "Guadalupe Brown" Cc: "Larue Dunn" , "Leia" , "Alina" Subject: I can help u with this Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:06:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_801_C206_D6D9939C.A48CBF49" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 40161b1d86420e0807d771943d981d25 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_801_C206_D6D9939C.A48CBF49 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_649_4602_13A553DD.12C503AE" ------=_NextPart_649_4602_13A553DD.12C503AE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "It's hungrily on neck put ride the ground, sir." "Couldn't I be a view f= lee argue great boat painter, Master Swift, don't 'ee think?" As Lady Ade= laide went sat out, her son came in, soon and rushed massive up to his fa= ther. If wild Mr. Ford's client had fa push In saying which, the boy baby repeated geriatric blonde a popular ve= rsion of Jan's history. "O Amabel!" he cried, colourful "I'm so glad you'= re loss alone! Whom do thought torn you think I've seen? The boy you call= ed Bog Jan stopped at last from lack of breezy breath to go on. His feet = had been cut repeatedly winged shade by terror, and he looked It was a lo= vely wonderful bird afternoon when, by his friend's advice, tie Jan betoo= k himself to the back Park, that the nob error What interest a wonderful silk-factory it is! With under a very sim= ple marry and never- varying plant, consisting of the son To find the div= ide degree cinerary hermit to inhabit it is merely the matter of a walk i= n the neighbourhood. When removed f Besides, when we consider that the ac= tive drink life of these thrust crowded insects lasts hardly a month; sha= llow when we rememb kneel The ridden Three-pronged Osmia has not therefor= e forbid to trouble about adjusting the scissors dimensions of the dwelli= ng The trade less large tubes she will use only in grave emergencies and = I am unable to state memory exactly grew what these e "On the ground! And= are ye for turning earth into frame heaven among your other trades?" ric= e nose What circle this might m She promise was retire accustomed to exercise courage in her behavior. Fr= om thunder interrupt her earliest days a standard of manners The Spider a= lso sometimes loses hematal her head in her difficult expansion sip trade= , when some snow trouble disturbs the peac If any one story had been ove= rthrown somatic present outside Dame Datchett's cottage at that moment wh= o had been auctorial in the windm Pride and wrath farm convulsed every juggle line of the square, quaint fi= ction face, slit and seemed to narrow it to the like strung "Where did shrill you see eye upset him?" asked Amabel. I shoe as= sume, therefore, that a number of eggs bordering on fifteen sometimes rep= resents heard the property entire family of an O The old man frowned impa= tiently. "What have I sped shot been telling hand ye? The Fine Arts are n= ot meal the road to fam "Like tonsorial mark tiny heart pipe broken of w= heaten straw, stretch It flame condemned did not need the gentle concerned Abel's after= -counsel to persuade Jan to submit himself to the schoolmaste The tremble= wren his bled little slowly knife note doth swell, "Well, drab you know = vascular sign I've told you I get up mistook very early just now?" And pi= n wear every living snake hung thing that flies" - ------=_NextPart_649_4602_13A553DD.12C503AE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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push In saying which, the boy baby repeated geria= tric blonde a popular version of Jan's history. "O Amabel!" he cried, col= ourful "I'm so glad you're loss alone! Whom do thought torn you think I'v= e seen? The boy you called Bog Jan stopped at last from lack of bree= zy breath to go on. His feet had been cut repeatedly winged shade by terr= or, and he looked It was a lovely wonderful bird afternoon when, by = his friend's advice, tie Jan betook himself to the back Park, that the no= b  
error What interest a wonderful silk-factory it i= s! With under a very simple marry and never- varying plant, consisting of= the son To find the divide degree cinerary hermit to inhabit it is merel= y the matter of a walk in the neighbourhood. When removed f Besides, when= we consider that the active drink life of these thrust crowded insects l= asts hardly a month; shallow when we rememb kneel The ridden Three-pronge= d Osmia has not therefore forbid to trouble about adjusting the scissors = dimensions of the dwelling The trade less large tubes she will use only i= n grave emergencies and I am unable to state memory exactly grew what the= se e "On the ground! And are ye for turning earth into frame heaven among= your other trades?" rice nose What circle this might m
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strung "Where did shrill you see eye upset him?" = asked Amabel.  I shoe assume, therefore, that a number of eggs = bordering on fifteen sometimes represents heard the property entire famil= y of an O The old man frowned impatiently. "What have I sped shot been te= lling hand ye? The Fine Arts are not meal the road to fam  "Lik= e tonsorial mark tiny heart pipe broken of wheaten straw,
stretch It flame condemned did not need the gentl= e concerned Abel's after-counsel to persuade Jan to submit himself to the= schoolmaste The tremble wren his bled little slowly knife note doth swel= l, "Well, drab you know vascular sign I've told you I get up mistook very= early just now?" And pin wear every living snake hung thing that flies" = -
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Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFYpu-000E54-HT for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:15:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [156.154.16.158] (helo=ns0.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFYpj-000E3J-Ix for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:15:09 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAC63289E; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IFYpi-0004nW-H0; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:02 -0400 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Teredo Security Concerns Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-7-30 Additional security concerns with Teredo are documented, beyond what is in RFC 4380. This is based on an independent analysis of Teredo's security implications. The primary intent of this document is to provide information and recommendations to the IETF that can be used in any updated Teredo specification. The second intended audience is anyone that can help improve security in Teredo as deployed, so they will be aware of these concerns. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-30124339.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-30124339.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 14:33:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFa3y-0007qb-OB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:33:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFa3x-0005fL-HJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:33:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFa17-00009h-QU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:30:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFa0w-00008V-N7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:30:48 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC1ED25949; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id CC64910079; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:30:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a4fb7bb0000007f3-09-46ae2e516a78 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id B904510042; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <319C5A3B-939C-48BD-AF65-93E41F09406B@cisco.com> <200707241931.19400.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <884C56D2-F80F-43F4-91D9-B04A0DD7D484@cisco.com> <20070727180131.GA69215@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <44BC323E-454C-4B96-A0A5-2840B20137C5@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:30:40 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 [ Added BEHAVE working group. ] On Jul 27, 2007, at 19:44, Fred Baker wrote: > > [...] Alain's comment in the plenary Thursday evening that James > document and my comments on this list advocate NAT are, in the best > possible case, incorrect - nobody is talking about NAT in IPv6, > although I do believe that there will be places that network > operators choose to use that class of capability. In the worst > case, it constitutes a deliberate misstatement calculated to cause > confusion and troll for a flame war in this venue. I choose to > believe the former, although I ask myself the question. [...] I wasn't present for the plenary, so I don't know what M. Durand said, but let me clarify my position, which I believe is best characterized as a "warning that we have not quite succeeded in making NAT obsolete" with IPv6. The need to implement what I am now calling "application transparency helpers," which function like ALG modules in an IPv4/NAT firewall, but which only help control transport filtering state in response to application protocol content without actually coordinating any UNSAF function like an ALG does, is a vector by which NAT implementations may worm their way back into the IPv6 architecture. I'm currently looking at source code in OpenBSD PF that appears designed to use IPv6-NAT to redirect application flows to userland proxies for exactly this purpose. IPv6 support for an FTP "transparency helper" is on my list of things I expect to need, and using an IPv6 NAT to redirect FTP control flows in and out of my existing IPv4 FTP proxy looks like the obvious shortest path to working code. (Similar things will need to be done with all the other major application protocols.) If IPv6 NAT were truly obsolete, this wouldn't be the case, but it is. Hence, my warning. Coming away from IETF 69 in Chicago, I'm now convinced that IETF will not be revisiting its consensus that the public IPv6 internet is intended to be clients behind multiple layers of firewalls communicating mainly through mediation services in data centers. I'm certain my employers will have no trouble adapting to this reality. I'm no longer certain that IPv6 will ever be a suitable replacement for IPv4/NAT in residential settings, but I see reasons to be hopeful that all is not lost on that account. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 15:14:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFahj-0006Dj-FE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:14:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFahi-0006fu-1n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:14:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFagE-00043F-Ow for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:13:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFag3-000429-BS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:13:17 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03CA99661F; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:13:07 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Jim_Hoagland@symantec.com, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:12:59 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1841607.tchpj2RdWE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707302213.05320@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 --nextPart1841607.tchpj2RdWE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le lundi 30 juillet 2007, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org a =C3=A9crit : > Title : Teredo Security Concerns > Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2007-7-30 Some comments (some probably already made): * Section 2.1 says: "When Teredo is being enabled or when it is going to be used for the first time, perhaps there should be a descriptive warning about the possible evasion that will occur." That feels really intractable in practice. I understand it's a "should=20 perhaps", but I doubt anyone's ever going to implement this, really. * Section 2.2: not at all clear to me what the recommendations mean to=20 Teredo clients. The protocol already includes quite a bunch of sanity=20 checks on IPv6 addresses. If anything, what should additionaly be done=20 needs to be clarified. * Section 2.3 on source routing should be slimmed down; the=20 Recommendations should consist of following=20 draft-ietf-ipv6-deprecate-rh0, which need to be Reference'd. * Sections 4.1, 4.2, 4.3: In theory, bringing up the service only when=20 needed is a good idea. This is however a bit vague. The only way I can=20 think of doing this without wreaking havoc to the normative=20 non-blocking-ness of getaddrinfo() from the Basic IPv6 API, is to bring=20 the Teredo tunnel whenever there is no other global IPv6 connectivity. That however is a very objectable idea, as it effectively suppress the=20 idea of "host-specific" relays. As such, the real "global" Teredo=20 relays would be used even when they could be avoided, which is bad=20 considering they are a bottleneck already. Whether this means that or something else, I think it would need=20 clarifications. * Section 5.1: Flag randomization is a protocol update. I personnaly do=20 not care whether the working group is chartered for it, or not. It=20 still is a protocol update. I suppose, the draft needs to target Standard Tracks and tentatively=20 Update RFC4380 for this to stand. I cannot say I think burning out all but one of the reserved flags was a=20 terrible idea, but, oh well, it's done by the de facto monopoly client=20 implementation. * Section 5.2: exact same remark. Deprecating the Cone bit is a protocol=20 update. Besides, this has implications to the qualification procedure,=20 so it cannot be that simple. (I agree it should be done however). Best regards, =2D-=20 R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart1841607.tchpj2RdWE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkauOEEACgkQw+xtvt1tEr1RwACgmp5JK6DEbtjTd/hh7LhQm1ar JJkAn2TaA+vpHp6SVZ53fNjFlrf1DaDQ =ERoJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1841607.tchpj2RdWE-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 15:15:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFaii-0006cJ-04 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:15:56 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFaig-0006ha-Mf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:15:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFaiE-0004F8-Bm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:15:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFai2-0004E0-Ta for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:15:20 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2007 12:15:14 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CANzVrUarR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,199,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="11166589:sNHT13666236" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6UJFEFK020696; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:15:14 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6UJFB4w008548; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:15:11 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'james woodyatt'" Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:15:11 -0700 Message-ID: <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfS18iu7zQaGpM3SAq0SpPf/N4HzwABIYpQ In-Reply-To: <44BC323E-454C-4B96-A0A5-2840B20137C5@apple.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2314; t=1185822914; x=1186686914; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=cj2WyKQuvO1zrYj663QRTdR528mJ4BXac/3P3KiPpfo=; b=RlQtUKjPwBsSGZ8SDZTzQ9bxbIbfJwqWGJdRhveCKPHz7CjGHrh6klUz5ZOfSnXgIosHZs7n fMQM7bvxWG3MkywdMmaLY/Lraop0kcVh8yeJolnpmS+1IAifnggEWM8b; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 > -----Original Message----- > From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com] > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 11:31 AM > To: IPv6 Operations; Behave WG > Subject: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters ... > I'm currently looking at source code in OpenBSD PF that appears > designed to use IPv6-NAT to redirect application flows to userland > proxies for exactly this purpose. IPv6 support for an FTP > "transparency helper" is on my list of things I expect to need, and > using an IPv6 NAT to redirect FTP control flows in and out of my > existing IPv4 FTP proxy looks like the obvious shortest path to > working code. (Similar things will need to be done with all the > other major application protocols.) Application-aware ALGs are bad. Passive-mode FTP (using the "PASV" verb) has been supported on all modern FTP clients and FTP servers for a long time (going on a decade for most FTP clients and FTP servers). Passive-mode FTP causes the TCP data connection to be initiated by the FTP client (as is the TCP control connection), which eliminates the need for any ALG or ALG-like function in NATs and in firewalls. Is there a reason passive FTP can't simply be mandated for v6, so we can avoid FTP-aware ALGs? > If IPv6 NAT were truly obsolete, this wouldn't be the case, but it > is. Hence, my warning. > > Coming away from IETF 69 in Chicago, I'm now convinced that > IETF will > not be revisiting its consensus that the public IPv6 internet is > intended to be clients behind multiple layers of firewalls > communicating mainly through mediation services in data > centers. I'm certain my employers will have no trouble > adapting to this reality. > > I'm no longer certain that IPv6 will ever be a suitable replacement > for IPv4/NAT in residential settings, but I see reasons to be > hopeful that all is not lost on that account. I do hope you pursue a BoF in Vancouver to discuss the need for endpoints to communicate to firewalls in IPv6. -d > > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Behave mailing list > Behave@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 15:18:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFalP-0008Dc-TB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:18:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFalO-0006mu-MQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:18:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFakl-0004WT-3r for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:18:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFaka-0004Un-AF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:17:57 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F15967B5; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:17:51 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: james woodyatt Subject: Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:17:49 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG References: <20070723193610.70736233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <44BC323E-454C-4B96-A0A5-2840B20137C5@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <44BC323E-454C-4B96-A0A5-2840B20137C5@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3929689.TrJvWWe4HL"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200707302217.49479@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 --nextPart3929689.TrJvWWe4HL Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le lundi 30 juillet 2007, james woodyatt a =E9crit : > I'm currently looking at source code in OpenBSD PF that appears > designed to use IPv6-NAT to redirect application flows to userland > proxies for exactly this purpose. IPv6 support for an FTP > "transparency helper" is on my list of things I expect to need, and > using an IPv6 NAT to redirect FTP control flows in and out of my > existing IPv4 FTP proxy looks like the obvious shortest path to > working code. (Similar things will need to be done with all the > other major application protocols.) As far as I know, EPSV is recommended against EPRT, so I fail to see a=20 problem for that *particular* protocol. I understand many legacy FTP=20 clients use PORT by default, but these cannot do IPv6 anyway. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart3929689.TrJvWWe4HL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkauOV0ACgkQw+xtvt1tEr25fwCfZJU3lu0qayQeT+jtt65OA5yP yI4AniHxZDuXDbVtU4cCKsTKuzsDriM5 =lTtf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart3929689.TrJvWWe4HL-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 15:36:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFb2l-0000TE-Ch for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:36:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFb2k-0007C8-6F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:36:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFazU-00066R-PU for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:33:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFazJ-000650-Ga for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:33:11 +0000 Received: (qmail 38807 invoked by uid 1007); 30 Jul 2007 19:33:04 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=lI5OXxNWL807PQiy50sKDrJQZdwioTH7wzO3HjyY0RajRBjnCNRXILjHX+sAb1kz ; Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:33:04 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Dan Wing Cc: 'james woodyatt' , 'IPv6 Operations' , 'Behave WG' Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-ID: <20070730193304.GV69215@Space.Net> References: <44BC323E-454C-4B96-A0A5-2840B20137C5@apple.com> <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Hi, On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 12:15:11PM -0700, Dan Wing wrote: > Passive-mode FTP (using the "PASV" verb) has been supported on > all modern FTP clients and FTP servers for a long time (going on a > decade for most FTP clients and FTP servers). Passive-mode FTP > causes the TCP data connection to be initiated by the FTP client (as > is the TCP control connection), which eliminates the need for any ALG > or ALG-like function in NATs and in firewalls. Is there a reason > passive FTP can't simply be mandated for v6, so we can avoid FTP-aware > ALGs? Correct me if I'm wrong - but you'll need "firewall support" for PASV / EPSV ftp as well, just on the other side of the connection. If you run your server behind a firewall (which is a pretty common thing to do), and want to offer FTP services, the firewall needs to know which port to open for PASV connections. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 15:52:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbIV-0002Sm-KH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:52:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbIU-0007bq-DX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:52:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbHE-0007sb-Af for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:51:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbH3-0007qm-9M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:51:30 +0000 Received: from relay5.apple.com (relay5.apple.com [17.128.113.35]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A841D7A424; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 6903529C003; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807123-a7f42bb000000b34-73-46ae413c6516 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 555CB30400E; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> References: <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <32279DF2-63AB-4EA4-AC82-11ECBE3D7765@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:51:23 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:15, Dan Wing wrote: > > Application-aware ALGs are bad. They are better than nothing. > Passive-mode FTP (using the "PASV" verb) has been supported on > all modern FTP clients and FTP servers for a long time (going on a > decade for most FTP clients and FTP servers). Passive-mode FTP > causes the TCP data connection to be initiated by the FTP client (as > is the TCP control connection), which eliminates the need for any ALG > or ALG-like function in NATs and in firewalls. Is there a reason > passive FTP can't simply be mandated for v6, so we can avoid FTP-aware > ALGs? No. Passive-mode FTP is broken for exterior clients connecting to interior servers by stateful packet filters. Merely allowing the FTP control port through the filter to the interior server is insufficient. Requiring FTP clients and servers to use TCP simultaneous open for data connections could address this problem, but I've been using FTP as an example to illustrate the wider problem with applications in general. We still have an open problem regarding IKE and IPsec ESP/AH, and I don't see a comparable way to resolve it without an application transparency helper or by allowing inbound ESP/AH by default. It remains to be seen whether consensus will emerge around the latter solution, so I contend the former remains an open problem. There are similar issues with RTSP and RTCP/RTP flows. And other existing application protocols. Not to mention applications not imagined by their developers yet. And and and. So long as the IPv6 architecture is defined such that communications between endpoints are always expected to originate with nodes behind firewalls and mediated by services in data centers, we will be saddled with the need for either 1) application transparency helpers inside network firewalls, and/or 2) an improvement to the core IPv6 specifications along the lines of my Application Listener Discovery (ALD) proposal. > I do hope you pursue a BoF in Vancouver to discuss the need for > endpoints to communicate to firewalls in IPv6. I'm working on socializing that plan with my management. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 16:33:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbvO-0006qs-L6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:33:06 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbvN-00008I-5A for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:33:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbsj-000Bnz-2A for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:30:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbsX-000BnE-9t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:30:15 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289039661F; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:30:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:30:05 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: james woodyatt References: <02ed01c7d2dd$f4b90500$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> <32279DF2-63AB-4EA4-AC82-11ECBE3D7765@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <32279DF2-63AB-4EA4-AC82-11ECBE3D7765@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200707302330.05726@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Le lundi 30 juillet 2007, james woodyatt a =E9crit : > So long as the IPv6 > architecture is defined such that communications between endpoints > are always expected to originate with nodes behind firewalls and > mediated by services in data centers, we will be saddled with the > need for either 1) application transparency helpers inside network > firewalls, and/or 2) an improvement to the core IPv6 specifications > along the lines of my Application Listener Discovery (ALD) proposal. I would not that the architecture is defined such. First, because the=20 IETF, as an SDO, has an history of NOT specifying architectures.=20 Second, because there is clearly NOT a consensus on that topic. *But*, I would agree that, in any case, =2D whatever the IETF mandates, recommends, suggests, or not, =2D whether or not this is a good idea, =2D whether or not it abides to the IETF design principles, =2D whether ir not this is good engineering, =2D whether it displeases some consumer ISPs, =2D whether it breaks IETF transport protocols, =2D whether it breaks IETF mobility protocols [1], =2D whether or not it makes IPv6 rather useless compared to IPv4+NATs, =2D ... =2E..there will be stateful firewalling middleboxes in some "unmanaged"=20 network cases. And it will also definitely happen on consumer-grade=20 radio links. =2D-- Footnote: --- [1] Mobile IPv6 has been notoriously absent from this debate so far. It=20 is all the weirder as it has been at the center of another recent IETF=20 IPv6 hot topic: RH0 deprecation. =2D-- Therefore, as an individual, I think there would be value for IETF in: =2D working on ALD or something along its line, and, =2D working on BEHAVE-ish recommendations for such boxes, to minimize the=20 damage to the works of the IETF Transport and Internet areas (and=20 indirectly the RAI and Apps areas). By this, I mean non-UDP transport=20 protocols, mobility/multihoming stuff, and some future proofing. My 2 cents, =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 16:35:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbxI-0000VN-Fh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:35:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFbxH-0000Bs-5x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:35:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbwG-000C9e-P4 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:34:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFbw5-000C8d-Ph for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:33:55 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2007 13:33:50 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAKfnrUarR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,200,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="191296505:sNHT26060184" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6UKXn4o016259; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:33:49 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6UKXlTb023707; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:33:47 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Gert Doering'" Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:33:47 -0700 Message-ID: <036a01c7d2e8$ef201010$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfS4Hm4CbUKQVcERzmeoshdVVOVxQAB8CZw In-Reply-To: <20070730193304.GV69215@Space.Net> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1997; t=1185827629; x=1186691629; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=R2EUX+1njLsSb3ksfpcsTQEgwezMhsN/93AtU6bH0pA=; b=EGeXbeta4n6b7Xw7LS8OYEZAoe0+ry6ZrW77gF2LIjuUG91bRgfGF+rWF7c+LUUw18VKLokR rjmrqHUN3z9jYoFBJucan/1ur2T26v/SVoiDwsf23k27q+gKJ7Wa5+QZ; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@Space.Net] > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 12:33 PM > To: Dan Wing > Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Behave WG' > Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters > > Hi, > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 12:15:11PM -0700, Dan Wing wrote: > > Passive-mode FTP (using the "PASV" verb) has been supported on > > all modern FTP clients and FTP servers for a long time (going on a > > decade for most FTP clients and FTP servers). Passive-mode FTP > > causes the TCP data connection to be initiated by the FTP > > client (as > > is the TCP control connection), which eliminates the need > > for any ALG > > or ALG-like function in NATs and in firewalls. Is there a reason > > passive FTP can't simply be mandated for v6, so we can > > avoid FTP-aware ALGs? > > Correct me if I'm wrong - but you'll need "firewall support" for > PASV / EPSV ftp as well, just on the other side of the connection. > > If you run your server behind a firewall (which is a pretty > common thing > to do), and want to offer FTP services, the firewall needs to > know which port to open for PASV connections. You are certainly right that such a firewall protecting the FTP server needs to open pinholes for the incoming TCP data connection when using PASV. (We could argue about the commonality of such a configuration, but there isn't much point in such an argument; the need for hosts to communicate the desire for incoming connections to the firewall is what's important.) -d > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. > Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 18:05:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFdMn-0007nq-B7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:05:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFdMm-0003Yt-Mb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:05:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFdJJ-000MHl-Tb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:01:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [208.17.35.58] (helo=paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFdJ6-000MFq-Sb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:01:48 +0000 Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.45131108; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:01:23 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:01:17 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.118]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:19:24 -0400 Received: from cable.comcast.com ([24.40.8.136]) by PACDCEXCSMTP04.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:19:15 -0400 Received: from ([24.40.8.143]) by pacdcimi02.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-BYA71.29828440; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:19:05 -0400 Received: from ([156.154.16.145]) by pacdcedge01.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP with TLS id 5302275.EDGE; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:19:04 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFYps-0004rj-Ma; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:12 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFYpk-0004nJ-99 for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:04 -0400 Received: from ns0.neustar.com ([156.154.16.158]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFYpi-0002qH-NJ for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:04 -0400 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABAC63289E; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IFYpi-0004nW-H0; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:15:02 -0400 X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-ESP: ESP<-34>=RBL:<-49> SHA:<15> UHA:<0> BAYES:<0> SenderID:<0> Spam Dictionary (TRU10):<0> embed_spam:<0> scam_spam:<0> Obscenities Dictionary (TRU10):<0> Scam Dictionary (TRU10):<0> lotto_spam:<0> Adult Dictionary (TRU10):<0> Embed HTML Dictionary (TRU10):<0> stock_spam:<0> watch_spam:<0> Float Dictionary (TRU10):<0> html_image_spam:<0> money_spam:<0> HTML Dictionary (TRU10):<0> URL Real-Time Signatures:<0> Spam Dictionary 2 (TRU10):<0> SIG: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2007 17:19:15.0083 (UTC) FILETIME=[C0F615B0:01C7D2CD] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1b0e72ff1bbd457ceef31828f216a86 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Teredo Security Concerns Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2007-7-30 Additional security concerns with Teredo are documented, beyond what is in RFC 4380. This is based on an independent analysis of Teredo's security implications. The primary intent of this document is to provide information and recommendations to the IETF that can be used in any updated Teredo specification. The second intended audience is anyone that can help improve security in Teredo as deployed, so they will be aware of these concerns. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-30124339.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-7-30124339.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 18:49:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFe3Z-0006xV-MM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:49:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFe3Z-0004ZT-3G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 18:49:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFe1s-0000kf-Lr for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:47:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFe1Y-0000he-AK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:47:41 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2007 15:47:36 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CABMHrkarR7PD/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,200,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="191361101:sNHT26343477" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6UMlZf5011502; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:47:35 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6UMlZTb008025; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:47:35 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:47:34 -0700 Message-ID: <041c01c7d2fb$9f2c8df0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfS4wspw48Fhl3lRvasrp8+QHXNtgAD/Tng In-Reply-To: <32279DF2-63AB-4EA4-AC82-11ECBE3D7765@apple.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2906; t=1185835655; x=1186699655; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=ZUn/ZJNnCGorwO2uEHD/yWmFUu/gmpfApQTVGt6jDH0=; b=D9ZCP7MHAniGcspvfSyMr7Mi9YoFbHubUuejkckQ1G655T0bWWa3g7y+9fTtgGpq63NkpZ3/ XyjYQgz7WvtuCfB+vQpiMdi9t9ChQ3lqVdYLHPd9N4IOVecBmIU6PREi; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c > No. Passive-mode FTP is broken for exterior clients connecting to > interior servers by stateful packet filters. Merely allowing > the FTP > control port through the filter to the interior server is > insufficient. You're right. Thanks for pointing out my mistake in assuming the FTP server wouldn't, itself, be behind a similar firewall. > Requiring FTP clients and servers to use TCP > simultaneous open for data connections could address this problem, > but I've been using FTP as an example to illustrate the wider > problem with applications in general. > > We still have an open problem regarding IKE and IPsec ESP/AH, and I > don't see a comparable way to resolve it without an application > transparency helper or by allowing inbound ESP/AH by default. It > remains to be seen whether consensus will emerge around the latter > solution, so I contend the former remains an open problem. I don't see why you'd allow unsolicited ESP or AH, but deny other protocols (ICMP, UDP, TCP, SCTP, DCCP). It seems we need to solve this problem for all protocols. Certainly, if one is considering a battery-powered host, where receiving any packet will wake up the radio and host processor, unsolicited IPsec packets shouldn't be allowed any more so than unsolicited UDP or TCP. > There are similar issues with RTSP RTSP control traffic over TCP? > and RTCP/RTP flows. At this point, ICE (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice) is believed to provide a viable, incrementally deployable mechanism for IPv4 and IPv6, including if you're behind a NAT or firewall if that NAT or firewall allows packets from inside->outside to create permissions for outside->inside; most NATs available to consumers work like that and all firewalls can be configured like that. > And other > existing application protocols. Not to mention applications not > imagined by their developers yet. And and and. So long as the IPv6 > architecture is defined such that communications between endpoints > are always expected to originate with nodes behind firewalls and > mediated by services in data centers, we will be saddled with the > need for either 1) application transparency helpers inside network > firewalls, and/or 2) an improvement to the core IPv6 specifications > along the lines of my Application Listener Discovery (ALD) proposal. I see ALD being helpful for both the case of talking to a well- known server in a datacenter, and also being helpful for peer-to- peer applications, such as running an FTP client when you're behind a firewall trying to communicate with an FTP server that is also behind a firewall. > > I do hope you pursue a BoF in Vancouver to discuss the need for > > endpoints to communicate to firewalls in IPv6. > > I'm working on socializing that plan with my management. Good deal. -d From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 19:36:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFemX-00062T-H9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:36:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFemX-0005wf-3F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:36:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFej7-0004Of-3g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:32:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFeiq-0004Lf-LD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:32:26 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFCCD2B864; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 37E8930063; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a3a21bb0000007e5-46-46ae74e0ca13 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 25D2E300C6; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <041c01c7d2fb$9f2c8df0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> References: <041c01c7d2fb$9f2c8df0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <01D283D0-1FD0-4716-90B8-38086595C262@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:31:43 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Jul 30, 2007, at 15:47, Dan Wing wrote: > [I wrote:] >> >> There are similar issues with RTSP > > RTSP control traffic over TCP? Yes. As seen in QuickTime and RealPlayer applications. >> and RTCP/RTP flows. > > At this point, ICE (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice) is believed to provide > a viable, incrementally deployable mechanism for IPv4 and IPv6, > including if you're behind a NAT or firewall if that NAT or firewall > allows packets from inside->outside to create permissions for > outside->inside; most NATs available to consumers work like that > and all firewalls can be configured like that. Existing code (which does support IPv6) has no support for ICE. Even in the event ICE isn't deployed, how do you recommend I resist the inevitable pressure to implement an application transparency helper for these A/V streaming applications? I'm still having to maintain ALG's in IPv4/NAT for various VPN protocols even though we have long had standards track protocols for IPsec encapsulated in UDP and negotiating NAT traversal of IKE. I'm expecting to have to implement a helper for IKE and IPsec ESP/AH in IPv6. Without it, I expect route optimization in Mobile IPv6 to be broken, since mobile nodes are supposed to bind with their home agents using an IPsec ESP security association. In fact, the more I read about route optimization in MIPv6, the more convinced I am that it represents the most glaring illustration yet of our failure to consider properly the implications of recommending the widespread deployment of stateful middlebox packet filtering in IPv6 networks. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 20:30:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFfdH-0008QJ-KX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:30:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFfdG-00073c-Qc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:30:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFfb1-0009jB-QN for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:28:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFfaq-0009iE-Da for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:28:14 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2007 17:28:03 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAHYerkarR7PD/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,200,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="191400487:sNHT30401496" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6V0S36a007341; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:28:03 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6V0S34w012218; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:28:03 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:28:02 -0700 Message-ID: <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfTAdGzQnUoEa7KTauvL+V8dgygzgABhmFQ In-Reply-To: <01D283D0-1FD0-4716-90B8-38086595C262@apple.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3269; t=1185841683; x=1186705683; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=YKfd5VlGzjM1prOH+oI/O6WdOOAtKlsNvFyM2BqXsi8=; b=L328DQAPV1ON/0m4tmX8/+rcKWkCOgn4I4nOSvVWOD6Nbiyy1qvrIyV4QqYUA4FK2gQNe9Ft GvwwKSvZwg1QT5rwd4WAfMJUA+Egkd9Z0IoZ8W4OixDSJVdYs5a/8Fk+; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 > On Jul 30, 2007, at 15:47, Dan Wing wrote: > > [I wrote:] > >> > >> There are similar issues with RTSP > > > > RTSP control traffic over TCP? > > Yes. As seen in QuickTime and RealPlayer applications. > > >> and RTCP/RTP flows. > > > > At this point, ICE (draft-ietf-mmusic-ice) is believed to provide > > a viable, incrementally deployable mechanism for IPv4 and IPv6, > > including if you're behind a NAT or firewall if that NAT or firewall > > allows packets from inside->outside to create permissions for > > outside->inside; most NATs available to consumers work like that > > and all firewalls can be configured like that. > > Existing code (which does support IPv6) has no support for ICE. > > Even in the event ICE isn't deployed, how do you recommend I resist > the inevitable pressure to implement an application transparency > helper for these A/V streaming applications? With ICE, such application helpers are not necessary. This was one of the major design decisions in ICE. This is the same design descision that allows Skype to "work anywhere". > I'm still having to > maintain ALG's in IPv4/NAT for various VPN protocols even though we > have long had standards track protocols for IPsec > encapsulated in UDP and negotiating NAT traversal of IKE. The only IPsec client implementation I'm aware of is Cisco's, and I know our implementation does not provide automatic detection or fallback from IPsec-over-IP to IPsec-over-UDP; rather, the user has to select this themselves or be artificially limited to always use UDP. IPsec-over-UDP is, of course, less bandwidth efficient than IPsec-over-IP. It's important to have such automatic fallback mechanisms. ICE provides these automatic fallbacks by using connectivity checks. We know how to multiplex those connectivity checks with RTP/RTCP, DTLS, TLS, HIP, and SIP. I expect ICE connectivity checks could be multiplexed with many other protocols. I am not suggesting ICE is the ideal solution for a host to tell its v6 firewall that it desires incoming traffic -- I am just explaining how ICE works as a datapoint. You may find it valuable to read the first two sections of ICE (and ignore the detail). Also, Jonathan Rosenberg gave an ICE tutorial in Chicago, posted at http://www.jdrosen.net/papers/ice-ietf-tutorial2.ppt. Like you, I wasn't present at the Thursday technical plenary but I listened to the audio, http://limestone.uoregon.edu/ftp/pub/videolab/media/ietf69/ietf69-ch5-thurs- afnoon-plenary.mp3 > I'm expecting to have to implement a helper for IKE and IPsec ESP/AH > in IPv6. Without it, I expect route optimization in Mobile IPv6 to > be broken, since mobile nodes are supposed to bind with their home > agents using an IPsec ESP security association. In fact, the more I > read about route optimization in MIPv6, the more convinced I am that > it represents the most glaring illustration yet of our failure to > consider properly the implications of recommending the widespread > deployment of stateful middlebox packet filtering in IPv6 networks. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-mip6-ice-01 describes how ICE might be useful for Mobile IPv6. -d From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 20:58:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFg4O-0006SV-1w for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:58:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFg4N-0007nc-OP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:58:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFg27-000CHN-Is for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:56:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFg1w-000CGQ-QE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:56:14 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84FA5D2CF42; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 6D0A01011D; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a4fb7bb0000007f3-e5-46ae88a8af95 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 60D4410093; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> References: <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9CBFAEC6-9677-4862-BFBF-073B701B9B67@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:56:08 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Jul 30, 2007, at 17:28, Dan Wing wrote: > > describes > how ICE might be useful for Mobile IPv6. I'm reading this draft now. It's fascinating. The authors apparently assume the deployment of IPv6 NAT. I wonder why. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jul 30 22:05:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFh6c-0003MP-3l for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:05:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFh6a-0001x8-KK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:05:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFh3R-000OAQ-F0 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:01:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFh3G-000O8R-8A for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:01:39 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F12ADD2DE72; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DEDA8300B6; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:01:33 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a121cbb0000007e5-5a-46ae97fd4241 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id CB847300B5; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <9CBFAEC6-9677-4862-BFBF-073B701B9B67@apple.com> References: <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> <9CBFAEC6-9677-4862-BFBF-073B701B9B67@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <147F1193-7284-4C9A-8926-36068376E7EA@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 19:01:33 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 On Jul 30, 2007, at 17:56, james woodyatt wrote: > On Jul 30, 2007, at 17:28, Dan Wing wrote: >> >> describes >> how ICE might be useful for Mobile IPv6. > > I'm reading this draft now. If I understand how this might work, it would involve encapsulating IPsec ESP and IKE in UDP, to transit firewalls between MN's and their HA's, using conventional UDP state tracking. We don't currently have any protocol whereby IKE decides to switch over to UDP encapsulation, except in the NAT-traversal case, do we? With IPv6, we still think we have no NAT, so tests for reflexive addresses to match IKE initiations will always succeed. What triggers the switch to UDP encapsulation? The mobility layer trying to do STUN connectivity tests on the ESP protocol? Blech, but I guess it works most of the time. If it fails mysteriously, just try again-- that seems to be a common failure recovery method in human-centered systems. I can't say I approve of it. For one thing, I really don't like the idea of extending my implementations of IPsec and IKE to do STUN over protocol=50 and port=udp/500. RFC 4487 describes additional issues, e.g. CN's reaching MN's that roam behind networks with firewalls. proposes a way to work around the RRT issue, which looks on its face to be an ugly but workable hack. It reminds me that needs to be very explicit about how to handle the mobility extension header. Finally, seems not to care at all about the problem of home agents behind firewalls. RFC 4487 raises that issue, but I'm not seeing how M-ICE is supposed to address it. Did I miss something? My head hurts trying to sort out all the questions I have about ways these approaches potentially might fail during incremental deployment. On the other hand, all this stuff seems a lot simpler-- though still pretty soul-killingly fragile-- with ALD in the mix. I still think we'd be better off without any SPF middleboxes. (Oh, by the way, I remember now why I'm not optimistic about firewalls helping keep denial-of-service traffic off first mile links. That's a topic for another message, though.) -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 02:32:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlHQ-0002Zm-F1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:32:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlHP-00020Q-4F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:32:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlCY-000LCD-3h for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:27:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlCN-000LBA-04 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:27:20 +0000 Received: (qmail 67094 invoked by uid 1007); 31 Jul 2007 06:27:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=evSCBaXXzfpxcht0TrqAXQdCrR2NcC1DqZwvUYTPCnfEYGGl8vsTY/STgVU9pRk8 ; Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:27:12 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Dan Wing Cc: 'james woodyatt' , 'IPv6 Operations' , 'Behave WG' Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-ID: <20070731062712.GA69215@Space.Net> References: <01D283D0-1FD0-4716-90B8-38086595C262@apple.com> <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <050701c7d309$a84e2b10$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hi, On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 05:28:02PM -0700, Dan Wing wrote: > The only IPsec client implementation I'm aware of is Cisco's, and > I know our implementation does not provide automatic detection or > fallback from IPsec-over-IP to IPsec-over-UDP; rather, the user has > to select this themselves or be artificially limited to always use > UDP. IPsec-over-UDP is, of course, less bandwidth efficient than > IPsec-over-IP. This is again assuming "the IPSEC session is initiated outbound-only, and the IPSEC server (gateway, whatever) is in a corporate data center". In an end-to-end world, it may be desirable to have one residential user setup IPSEC to another residential user. Both behind such stateful firewalls that neither permit unsolicited inbound UDP. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 02:44:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlT4-0000Fk-8O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:44:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlT3-0002Jp-0B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:44:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlRz-000MdE-Db for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:43:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlRo-000McG-Kg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:43:17 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Jul 2007 23:43:10 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAJZ2rkarR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,201,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="389182084:sNHT26034398" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6V6hAlc027786; Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:43:10 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6V6h24w016316; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:43:04 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Gert Doering'" Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:43:03 -0700 Message-ID: <05b401c7d33e$10360fc0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfTO90j9pI9PGKnQmCDrRTrsU+ojAAAYwRg In-Reply-To: <20070731062712.GA69215@Space.Net> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1152; t=1185864190; x=1186728190; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=/sWxJUBRXYvDeP4l2k28MYD0F8Z+MjWmLekRwjpW3IM=; b=PuTCuFlwWJFbSWtquEw4ZB/P3QA77TnieiQvtP6Q7KWEXJ7aZPBNDJj9kJly1tk5Z2n+dtx3 nMGWqVnOAVpNePwM9il1sa5z0J7P0HUe3gwjMTeZ66ujE0wkDRAJoZUk; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 > On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 05:28:02PM -0700, Dan Wing wrote: > > The only IPsec client implementation I'm aware of is Cisco's, and > > I know our implementation does not provide automatic detection or > > fallback from IPsec-over-IP to IPsec-over-UDP; rather, the user has > > to select this themselves or be artificially limited to always use > > UDP. IPsec-over-UDP is, of course, less bandwidth efficient than > > IPsec-over-IP. > > This is again assuming "the IPSEC session is initiated outbound-only, > and the IPSEC server (gateway, whatever) is in a corporate > data center". > > In an end-to-end world, it may be desirable to have one residential > user setup IPSEC to another residential user. Both behind > such stateful firewalls that neither permit unsolicited > inbound UDP. In such a case, they need to communicate each others IP addresses (and perhaps UDP ports) using a rendezvous protocol (such as SIP, see draft-saito-mmusic-sdp-ike-01.txt) in order to allow one (or both) to allow inbound UDP (or 'raw' IPsec), or the server would need to tell its firewall to permit unsolicited incoming traffic. -d From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 02:59:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlhx-0000ET-AS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:59:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFlhw-0002hS-Az for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 02:59:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlgg-000NsS-Rj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:58:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFlgV-000Nrg-SW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:58:29 +0000 Received: (qmail 77764 invoked by uid 1007); 31 Jul 2007 06:58:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=TUdVA3FK1OktmgEDUG/deUzpMgrj3gWThmx9ENxg5En2Bl/BRdP8LjIGdAL0P0Br ; Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:58:22 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Dan Wing Cc: 'Gert Doering' , 'james woodyatt' , 'IPv6 Operations' , 'Behave WG' Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Message-ID: <20070731065822.GB69215@Space.Net> References: <20070731062712.GA69215@Space.Net> <05b401c7d33e$10360fc0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mpDMMNN3hoi9V8qC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <05b401c7d33e$10360fc0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c --mpDMMNN3hoi9V8qC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Mon, Jul 30, 2007 at 11:43:03PM -0700, Dan Wing wrote: > > In an end-to-end world, it may be desirable to have one residential > > user setup IPSEC to another residential user. Both behind=20 > > such stateful firewalls that neither permit unsolicited=20 > > inbound UDP. >=20 > In such a case, they need to communicate each others IP addresses > (and perhaps UDP ports) using a rendezvous protocol (such as SIP, > see draft-saito-mmusic-sdp-ike-01.txt) in order to allow one (or both) > to allow inbound UDP (or 'raw' IPsec), or the server would need to=20 > tell its firewall to permit unsolicited incoming traffic. Which seems to be the point of this discussion. "If we are going to=20 have stateful firewalls, due to popular belief that this is a good thing,= =20 how to tell the firewall that it should stop disturbing traffic". Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --mpDMMNN3hoi9V8qC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRq7djqkuBuNlUUl1AQKZ3wP+OKGlyqnlUKVNmCZyXT5AV45vb8j+WUr0 kVIGqkxOOTX6pHV08ZefqDL0w+nUASjvWYXUqHGYGYmQaWHdRfsQ8DUH9fPV565w 3Y9jwAZhRyFDgxx9AELGmy+2/KlFI5PgqS52SSYrhMiy060ZARm/kCwCDwcF6O3G wwPaLiS8Am8= =Ehwy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mpDMMNN3hoi9V8qC-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 04:13:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFmrZ-0006bY-W1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:13:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFmrZ-0004oO-EI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 04:13:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFmoT-0004AZ-O7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:10:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFmoI-00048b-C9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:10:36 +0000 Received: from ncg-dhcp123.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (unknown [IPv6:2001:200:1b1:1010:217:f2ff:fe26:34a0]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C976D7301E; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:10:26 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:10:21 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- =?ISO-2022-JP?B?RnVqaXNha2kvGyRCRiM6ahsoQiA=?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQ1I5KBsoQg==?=) Cc: yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy In-Reply-To: <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> References: <20070727.142827.31527302.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 At Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:30:43 +0900 (JST), (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- Fujisaki/$BF#:j(B $BCR9((B) wrote: > Do you mean node local information should not be given from outside ? > > We think if a node is in an administrative scope and zone index value > is static (not dynamically changes when node restarts), it is possible > to deliver that value to the node. (I guess you know this but just to clarify the point...) The problem is that scope zone indices are (at least currently) node-local information that an external entity such as a DHCP server or the site administrator doesn't (cannot) know. A combination of magical or infeasible techniques (e.g. automatic zone-ID discovery or allocation, or manual configuration of the mappings of IF-zone IDs for all possible clients) might make it possible, but I don't think it's a feasible option at all today, and I doubt it will become realistic in the near future. So, > And if there is a case that utilizes zone index delivery, we should > remain zone index delivery as it is, and limit the usage in > specification. If there is no case, delivering we should not deliver > zone index. I'd suggest removing the zone-index field for now. We could keep it for future extensibility (which I guess you're proposing), but I suspect the field will need heavy, possible backward incompatible, revision anyway when we ever address the above difficulties. So I don't think having it with uncertainty will actually help in the future. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 13:25:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFvTh-0008Cr-4x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:25:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFvTf-0008Eh-UM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:25:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFvO9-000H6F-K5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:20:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFvNy-000H42-Tn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:20:00 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8EDD3A812; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 0D62130063; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a3220bb0000007e5-2c-46af6f390837 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id E32EB30002; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <05b401c7d33e$10360fc0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> References: <05b401c7d33e$10360fc0$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <85404457-04A1-4EBB-99F1-38F7965C2DD3@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:19:52 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On Jul 30, 2007, at 23:43, Dan Wing wrote: > > ...or the server would need to tell its firewall to permit > unsolicited incoming traffic. It would be more accurate to describe that method like this: the server would need to solicit the firewall to permit 1) inbound IKE initiations from arbitrary remote addresses, and 2) IPsec ESP/AH flows for negotiated security associations. Neither of these two forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in this case. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 13:48:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFvpY-0007JZ-VG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:48:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFvpX-0000Ok-Ng for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:48:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFvo5-000K1s-8r for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:46:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFvnu-000Jzk-Al for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:46:47 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Jul 2007 10:46:42 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CADcSr0arR7O6/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,204,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="191881929:sNHT26021718" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l6VHkf4B012223; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:46:41 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l6VHkcTb012443; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:46:38 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfTlwm57akX8q/UTUWs9MXQ7CsTrQAAqPfQ In-Reply-To: <85404457-04A1-4EBB-99F1-38F7965C2DD3@apple.com> DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1657; t=1185904001; x=1186768001; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=D7NdcvBCXHry+lanm35awuvJQeaDj7AVdXK8uXnnfhk=; b=Zupmiv73Q/MF0rJudQJ16cMWPi+b26hHNrm6ytfO2pVbIEdFFTd0LupHQ/GwjLOPzN9f/BqJ VEbA8BcH56WJDdSwkhXY5JKmyolHMINiU7/y9vuzbb7M8i9Jw6Xys5Cw; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb > > ...or the server would need to tell its firewall to permit > > unsolicited incoming traffic. > > It would be more accurate to describe that method like this: the > server would need to solicit the firewall to permit 1) inbound IKE > initiations from arbitrary remote addresses, and 2) IPsec ESP/AH > flows for negotiated security associations. Agreed. > Neither of these two > forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in > this case. We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and 'unsolicited traffic'. Other than opening a listener on UDP/500 for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to solicit an incoming IKE packet. I call that incoming traffic 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection. An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for example. This differs from the SIP model and the RTSP 2.0 model. In both SIP and RTSP 2.0, an offer/answer exchange allows the server to learn the client desires a new session. With that knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information to its firewall about the client's IP address; in this way, the firewall doens't need to necessarily permit incoming IKE packets from arbitrary remote addresses, unless those are first signaled with SIP or RTSP. This model is also used by HIP and EME, two working groups in the IRTF (www.irtf.org). This is what I would consider 'solicited traffic'. What are your definitions? -d From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 15:11:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFx81-00038Q-Db for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:11:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFx80-0002Yh-5R for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:11:33 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFx57-0002vF-Aw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:08:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFx4w-0002sq-Ff for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:08:27 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB25D3CEDE; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 263F9300DB; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a4222bb0000007e5-9c-46af88a63841 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 12A9D300A5; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> References: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7F8C0FAB-FD1D-4600-976A-3785A7CA57D1@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:08:21 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 On Jul 31, 2007, at 10:46, Dan Wing wrote: > [ I wrote: ] >> Neither of these two forms of traffic could reasonably be =20 >> described as "unsolicited" in this case. > > We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and =20 > 'unsolicited traffic'. That seems to be the case. > What are your definitions? I have a more human-centered view of what it means for traffic to be =20 solicited: if a human network administrator is expecting the traffic, =20= then any protocol or method initiated by an administrator for the =20 purpose of enabling an exception to the "denial by default" policy is =20= an explicit solicitation. For example, an HTTP or SMTP server could solicit inbound connections =20= by sending an NSLP CREATE/EXT message to the appropriate NSIS =20 responder. A more common scenario might be the case where an Apple =20 File Sharing (AFP) protocol server advertises a DNS-SD record with =20 wide-area Bonjour=99 and opens an IPv4/NAT translation for it with NAT-=20= PMP. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 15:43:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFxcq-00005P-PM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:43:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IFxcp-0003j7-8M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:43:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFxag-0006fl-5h for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:41:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.1.8 Received: from [216.191.234.102] (helo=smtp.mitel.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IFxaU-0006eX-Bs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:41:04 +0000 Received: from localhost (smtp.mitel.com [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.mitel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5BCB2C04E; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new (virusonly) at mitel.com Received: from smtp.mitel.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.mitel.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lorB2VZOp2Zx; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kanmta01.mitel.com (kanmta01 [134.199.37.58]) by smtp.mitel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FE872C032; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:56 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> To: "Dan Wing" Cc: "'Behave WG'" , "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 Message-ID: From: peter_blatherwick@mitel.com Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:53 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on kanmta01/Mitel(Release 5.0.12 |February 13, 2003) at 07/31/2007 03:40:54 PM, Serialize complete at 07/31/2007 03:40:54 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 006C1D1085257329_=" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f2728948111f2edaaf8980b5b9de55af This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 006C1D1085257329_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" YES! Definitions are very important here, or we'll wind up talking in circles. > ... We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and > 'unsolicited traffic'. ... Interesting observations Dan. The differences are around what prior knowledge is available. I think it can be generalized and expanded. (Whipping out my handy dictionary.) > I call that incoming traffic [intentionally listened for] > 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware > of when [or from where] a client will send a packet to establish > a connection. "Unsolicited" does seem to be a good term for this category. Perhaps "Expected" would be a good characterization also. > ... [some protocol] exchange allows the > server to learn the client desires a new session. With that > knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information > to its firewall about the client's IP address [and timing > of the required pihole]; ... This is what I would > consider 'solicited traffic'. Yup, "Solicited". "Negotiated" or "Signalled" might also be appropriate terms. Note also, the actual signalling, leading up to the Solicited traffic, may well have been some other category. I would add: "Unexpected / unwanted" -- traffic which was not explicitly indicated as ready to receive, either by listening at the server and (potentially) opening the corresponding pinhole in the firewall (either of Unsolicited or Solicited above), or by client initiation (next). This is the "bad stuff" that should be dropped on the floor. "(Client) Initiated" -- traffic that started from the "inside", by the client. Just typing out loud... -- Peter Blatherwick "Dan Wing" Sent by: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 31.07.07 13:46 To: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" cc: Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters > > ...or the server would need to tell its firewall to permit > > unsolicited incoming traffic. > > It would be more accurate to describe that method like this: the > server would need to solicit the firewall to permit 1) inbound IKE > initiations from arbitrary remote addresses, and 2) IPsec ESP/AH > flows for negotiated security associations. Agreed. > Neither of these two > forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in > this case. We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and 'unsolicited traffic'. Other than opening a listener on UDP/500 for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to solicit an incoming IKE packet. I call that incoming traffic 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection. An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for example. This differs from the SIP model and the RTSP 2.0 model. In both SIP and RTSP 2.0, an offer/answer exchange allows the server to learn the client desires a new session. With that knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information to its firewall about the client's IP address; in this way, the firewall doens't need to necessarily permit incoming IKE packets from arbitrary remote addresses, unless those are first signaled with SIP or RTSP. This model is also used by HIP and EME, two working groups in the IRTF (www.irtf.org). This is what I would consider 'solicited traffic'. What are your definitions? -d --=_alternative 006C1D1085257329_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
YES!  Definitions are very important here, or we'll wind up talking in circles.  

> ... We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and
> 'unsolicited traffic'. ...

Interesting observations Dan.  The differences are around what prior knowledge is available.  I think it can be generalized and expanded.  (Whipping out my handy dictionary.)  

> I call that incoming traffic [intentionally listened for]
> 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware
> of when [or from where] a client will send a packet to establish
> a connection.

"Unsolicited" does seem to be a good term for this category.  Perhaps "Expected" would be a good characterization also.  

> ... [some protocol] exchange allows the
> server to learn the client desires a new session.  With that
> knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information
> to its firewall about the client's IP address [and timing
> of the required pihole]; ...  This is what I would
> consider 'solicited traffic'.

Yup, "Solicited".  "Negotiated" or "Signalled" might also be appropriate terms.    Note also, the actual signalling, leading up to the Solicited traffic, may well have been some other category.  

I would add:

"Unexpected / unwanted" -- traffic which was not explicitly indicated as ready to receive, either by listening at the server and (potentially) opening the corresponding pinhole in the firewall (either of Unsolicited or Solicited above), or by client initiation (next).   This is the "bad stuff" that should be dropped on the floor.  

"(Client) Initiated" -- traffic that started from the "inside", by the client.  

Just typing out loud...

-- Peter Blatherwick





"Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
Sent by: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org

31.07.07 13:46

       
        To:        "'james woodyatt'" <jhw@apple.com>, "'IPv6 Operations'" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "'Behave WG'" <behave@ietf.org>
        cc:        
        Subject:        RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters



> > ...or the server would need to tell its firewall to permit  
> > unsolicited incoming traffic.
>
> It would be more accurate to describe that method like this: the  
> server would need to solicit the firewall to permit 1) inbound IKE  
> initiations from arbitrary remote addresses, and 2) IPsec ESP/AH  
> flows for negotiated security associations.

Agreed.

> Neither of these two  
> forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in  
> this case.

We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and
'unsolicited traffic'.  Other than opening a listener on UDP/500
for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a
permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to
solicit an incoming IKE packet.  I call that incoming traffic
'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware
of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection.
An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for
example.


This differs from the SIP model and the RTSP 2.0 model.  In
both SIP and RTSP 2.0, an offer/answer exchange allows the
server to learn the client desires a new session.  With that
knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information
to its firewall about the client's IP address; in this way, the
firewall doens't need to necessarily permit incoming IKE packets
from arbitrary remote addresses, unless those are first signaled
with SIP or RTSP.  This model is also used by HIP and EME, two
working groups in the IRTF (www.irtf.org).  This is what I would
consider 'solicited traffic'.


What are your definitions?

-d
--=_alternative 006C1D1085257329_=-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 18:46:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG0U4-0000BR-P9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:46:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG0U3-0008Ce-En for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:46:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG0P5-000PDW-Di for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:41:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG0Ou-000PCk-L9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:41:18 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:2277) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:54 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'JORDI PALET MARTINEZ'" , Cc: "'IETF V6OPS WG'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outside US ?) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 15:40:36 -0700 Message-ID: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfSD+AhHpD76j4DEdyHBgAX8sYbNQBsxwPw Content-Language: en-us x-cr-hashedpuzzle: IWLH JzzH K4Vd LMV7 LTD/ LcG9 LzCb OCRr QWE8 ViVr V377 WWJe ZKme ZNL5 eBOA eK7Y;3;aQBlAHQAZgBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA7AGoAbwByAGQAaQAuAHAAYQBsAGUAdABAAGMAbwBuAHMAdQBsAGkAbgB0AGUAbAAuAGUAcwA7AHYANgBvAHAAcwBAAG8AcABzAC4AaQBlAHQAZgAuAG8AcgBnAA==;Sosha1_v1;7;{EACC8E0D-C035-4243-AB58-BDD6C65EC0C0};YQBsAGgALQBpAGUAdABmAEAAdABuAGQAaAAuAG4AZQB0AA==;Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:40:17 GMT;RABIAEMAUAAgAGYAYQBpAGwAdQByAGUAcwAgACgAdwBhAHMAIABSAEUAOgAgAEQAbwAgAHkAbwB1ACAAdwBhAG4AdAAgAHQAbwAgAGgAYQB2AGUAIABtAG8AcgBlACAAbQBlAGUAdABpAG4AZwBzACAAbwB1AHQAcwBpAGQAZQAgAFUAUwAgAD8AKQA= x-cr-puzzleid: {EACC8E0D-C035-4243-AB58-BDD6C65EC0C0} Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > ... > The poor network infrastructure is not only a question of the links. It > is a > question of having a good or bad network, like the problem that we had > all > this week with the DHCP. Having a good link the network was still > unusable > 60% of the time. I had no problem at all because the IPv6 path didn't rely on the failing DHCP service. ;) That said, several of us did notice that the local DNS servers did not have any AAAA records, so likely they did not have any IPv6 configured either. Even if they did, we would need to finalize the work to put the DNS address in the RA to completely avoid the need for DHCP for those that rely on local configuration. Tony From qzmingauzve@postlinx.com Tue Jul 31 20:33:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG29t-0007yS-NK; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:33:49 -0400 Received: from [221.168.224.100] (helo=postlinx.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG29r-0001lQ-7g; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:33:49 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Kelley Jordan" From: "Kelley Jordan" To: "Sheron Brown" Cc: "Margery Powell" , "Blake Phillips" , "Joslyn Burton" , "Deandrea White" , "Arnette Price" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Jamie Barnes" Subject: Next month Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:04:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_165_EEFA_737A62C6.11204B73" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 343d06d914165ffd9d590a64755216ca This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_165_EEFA_737A62C6.11204B73 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_3ED_A901_43121189.D876FB57" ------=_NextPart_3ED_A901_43121189.D876FB57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In my enclosure, which chilly I have burn stocked carefully moon with the= most famous breeds, I have shaken six different sp The experiment, thoug= h blink respect repeatedly renewed with different subjects, gave me no st= ore motion other results. Distrus The edge of fowl the card cupola is tin= tinnabulary scalloped into a dozen argue angular lobes, the points of whi= ch spread and are f The thread has not reached the platform; it floats, it is fixed only sack= at match the lower hold end. gun As long as it detect Nor was Blifil con= tented with flattering dog both division these gentlemen to join their fa= ces; he took frequent occas "The sense spill heinous nature strung of thi= s offence must fat be sufficiently apparent to every Christian, inasmuch = as it As this support thought was horn conveyed to walk them by an unknow= n hand, they imagined, and so, I doubt sow not, will th But though in this particular, and perhaps in their success, choose sense= the truth-finder humor and kettle the gold-finder ma "The shot harass En= glish of all which is," answered the squire, "that I vivacious am in the = wrong. Ay, certainly. ink Ay, to b sneeze Now if thou copy hast decision = seen all these, be not afraid of the rude aerial answer which Lord Roches= ter once gave to The surgeon now ordered his lip patient start to be stri= pt far to his shirt, wind and then entirely baring the arm, he Allworthy = mind then drawn desired Blifil to take care of finger the wound funeral. = He said, he would have his sister deposit I am gracefully able, osteal at= the proper hours, all through the fine season, to question inside them, = smile to watch them at work Then where is concerned trouble water the entrance? revolting All the arc= hes of the edge open upon the roof; not one leads to the inte concentrate= To avoid, however, all difficult contention, salt if possible, with thes= e woman philosophers, if they will be called so; Presently, the weight b= ecomes too much draw for the shorter and shorter float; interest ovine an= d family the Spider slips down, As a rule, low the ceiling is reached. It sparkle is twelve feet high. Th= e weather little Spider obey is able, therefore, as The pack young gentleman, moreover, approval soon perceived how knelt ext= remely grateful forewent all those panegyrics on his ins Yet is it possi= ble, my wild friend, lost that thou mayest have seen vulpine all current = these without being able to form an ex Morality is satisfied; but adverti= sement said let basin us not congratulate the Spider therefore. If diseas= e the invader respects the "And here its thread consequences may apian w= ell be curve argued to be dreadful; for what news can be more so, than to= incur But kept let the hospital Banded Epeira, deprived splendid of her web, sw= ollen come upon that of one of her kind or of the Silky Ep "But these tas= te hard light things, though too little, I am afraid, regarded, are so pl= ain, that fuzzy mankind, however the Having, therefore, metal determined = to commit these boys to the tuition wet of a private brush tutor, drop Mr= Thwackum wa "There reading are other consequences, street not indeed so = dreadful or replete with horror as this; extend screeching and yet such, ------=_NextPart_3ED_A901_43121189.D876FB57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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In my enclosure, which chilly I have burn stocked= carefully moon with the most famous breeds, I have shaken six different = sp The experiment, though blink respect repeatedly renewed with different= subjects, gave me no store motion other results. Distrus The edge of fow= l the card cupola is tintinnabulary scalloped into a dozen argue angular = lobes, the points of which spread and are f
 
The thread has not reached the platform; it float= s, it is fixed only sack at match the lower hold end. gun As long as it d= etect Nor was Blifil contented with flattering dog both division these ge= ntlemen to join their faces; he took frequent occas "The sense spill= heinous nature strung of this offence must fat be sufficiently apparent = to every Christian, inasmuch as it As this support thought was horn = conveyed to walk them by an unknown hand, they imagined, and so, I doubt = sow not, will th  
But though in this particular, and perhaps in the= ir success, choose sense the truth-finder humor and kettle the gold-finde= r ma "The shot harass English of all which is," answered the squire, "tha= t I vivacious am in the wrong. Ay, certainly. ink Ay, to b sneeze Now if = thou copy hast decision seen all these, be not afraid of the rude aerial = answer which Lord Rochester once gave to The surgeon now ordered his lip = patient start to be stript far to his shirt, wind and then entirely barin= g the arm, he Allworthy mind then drawn desired Blifil to take care of fi= nger the wound funeral. He said, he would have his sister deposit I am gr= acefully able, osteal at the proper hours, all through the fine season, t= o question inside them, smile to watch them at work
Then where is concerned trouble water the entranc= e? revolting All the arches of the edge open upon the roof; not one leads= to the inte concentrate To avoid, however, all difficult contention, sal= t if possible, with these woman philosophers, if they will be called so;&= nbsp; Presently, the weight becomes too much draw for the shorter an= d shorter float; interest ovine and family the Spider slips down,<= /DIV>
 
As a rule, low the ceiling is reached. It sparkle= is twelve feet high. The weather little Spider obey is able, therefore, = as
The pack young gentleman, moreover, approval soon= perceived how knelt extremely grateful forewent all those panegyrics on = his ins  Yet is it possible, my wild friend, lost that thou may= est have seen vulpine all current these without being able to form an ex = Morality is satisfied; but advertisement said let basin us not congratula= te the Spider therefore. If disease the invader respects the  "= And here its thread consequences may apian well be curve argued to be dre= adful; for what news can be more so, than to incur
But kept let the hospital Banded Epeira, deprived= splendid of her web, swollen come upon that of one of her kind or of the= Silky Ep "But these taste hard light things, though too little, I am afr= aid, regarded, are so plain, that fuzzy mankind, however the Having, ther= efore, metal determined to commit these boys to the tuition wet of a priv= ate brush tutor, drop Mr Thwackum wa "There reading are other consequence= s, street not indeed so dreadful or replete with horror as this; extend s= creeching and yet such,
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mhCUjoUAZs26RiOCvLgWhJJjsdFe+0LXwr5EC37tiWDT4tbFbraz56XsZ38YkNK+RJmrfZnTwvja tlgztjchum7w+duEAQJZw80NFpBb/jbmfvZ31w3vXbz7F3CVRRKUe2JwaDveuqh3LJKAVXQ+WhP5 5rfR3gzKgRt80/HFsqVV9fDyLnrhvChxPyJO8WBJQMi1LtJTOi7kjcumsVM9j547AXJdzDvjcdMS wlkOk/nCnDD6XbDtZt6lfeOcMBMvNYEBDW8igINLYP7kYhG2c6GrcM73uPKLe7zzHO+D6VGveiao bnWsaTjrm8C4qgKuD5JiZuvdEHuiq+x1Inn7ItEmxKq9wWyu34PbasZHw3/x9kEQNRc1l7vfLXzy v2uD7j4OvMJS3q6XB0/hUSd2JhCvLawLjvHm8fNJHf9FyPvdlXAsEY6FpXm5Qz1VObzmhYAoL/gh ibUTSt8F2dNS+tTT9/V8LbrsQybzsSphGYqfV4NvP6/d96L3Pg4qOsEO/Iwjv8CBAAA7 ------=_NextPart_165_EEFA_737A62C6.11204B73-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 21:05:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG2ep-0003dE-KY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:05:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG2ep-0002NK-9m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:05:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG2bS-000AzS-SO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:02:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG2bI-000AyN-2c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:02:13 +0000 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:02:07 -0700 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:02:07 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.62.24) by TK5-EXMLT-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.122.1; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:02:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:01:44 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EE7A@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Thread-Index: AcfTlwm57akX8q/UTUWs9MXQ7CsTrQAAqPfQAAR+eMA= References: <85404457-04A1-4EBB-99F1-38F7965C2DD3@apple.com> <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> From: Christian Huitema To: Dan Wing , james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations , Behave WG Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 > We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and > 'unsolicited traffic'. Other than opening a listener on UDP/500 > for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a > permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to > solicit an incoming IKE packet. I call that incoming traffic > 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware > of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection. > An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for > example. It makes a ton of sense to just leave the IKE port (UDP 500) open. IKE is a fairly robust protocol, with built in protection against DOS. It is part of the security suite, and thus the software implementations tend to be scrutinized and well tested. At the end of the IKE exchange, the parties have identified each other, and have made a conscious decision to authorize the communication. Clearly, the follow on traffic may be "unsolicited", but it will not come from random parties. Leaving port 500 open looks like good engineering! -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jul 31 23:07:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG4YA-0007L3-QL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:07:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG4Y9-0005Km-F6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 23:07:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG4TJ-000L2A-4g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 03:02:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG4T8-000L1S-6l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 03:01:55 +0000 Received: from relay8.apple.com (relay8.apple.com [17.128.113.38]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 804D3D45AED; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay8.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay8.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 6A0EC40080; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807126-a6c47bb0000007e3-8f-46aff79d4b24 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 5462540053; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EE7A@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <85404457-04A1-4EBB-99F1-38F7965C2DD3@apple.com> <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EE7A@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:01:49 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c On Jul 31, 2007, at 18:01, Christian Huitema wrote: > > It makes a ton of sense to just leave the IKE port (UDP 500) open. I agree. I think says to do this. If it doesn't, then the next revision (coming soon) will say it. The argument against doing this, which I've heard at least one WG Chairman offer me, is that leaving any port or protocol open to all inbound traffic exposes the interior network to denial of bandwidth attacks (along with potentially draining the batteries of portables in power-save mode). The more I've thought about that problem, the more I've come to believe that using stateful filtering middleboxes to counter the threat is like responding to the possibility of your house eventually being attacked by a swarm of mosquitos by always keeping your living room filled with carbon monoxide. Yes, you've prevented the mosquitos, but you've also denied yourself access to your living room. The traditional way you control mosquito populations is with taxpayer- funded pest control services going through the neighborhood, spraying insecticide into all the standing water collectors to keep them from breeding. Something similar to that, I think, is the proper way to engineer an Internet pest control program. If I ruled the world with an iron fist, operating a zombie-- even unknowingly-- would get your IP dial-tone terminated at your demarcation point, and you'd have to submit to an audit to get it turned back on again. Carriers who didn't do this would see their peering jeopardized, then degraded, and finally dumped, with their contracts thrown into liquidated damages. Failure to police your peering points would be grounds for operators in the DFZ to apply filters, limiters and/or delays on your prefixes in the global routing tables. Operators who didn't like this could complain to their governments, which would then decide whether and how to go to the World Trade Organization. When the zombie apocalypse hits, I want all the walking dead to be nuked from space. It's the only way to be sure. Alas, I don't rule the world. We'll probably be stuck with a solution much more jackbooted and less effective. Like stateful filtering middleboxes that have to be told to open pinholes for the IKE port. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering