From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 01 01:09:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG6SN-0007FK-0d for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:09:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG6SM-0007ZU-8u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:09:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG6Oj-0005I7-Jg for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:05:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG6OX-0005Gn-Ui for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:05:20 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7154xQv012940; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:04:59 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l7154xTd012937; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:04:59 +0300 Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:04:59 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Dan Wing cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <07cc01c7d39a$c084c720$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3837/Wed Aug 1 02:48:51 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Dan Wing wrote: >> Neither of these two >> forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in >> this case. > > We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and > 'unsolicited traffic'. Other than opening a listener on UDP/500 > for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a > permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to > solicit an incoming IKE packet. I call that incoming traffic > 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware > of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection. > An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for > example. > > This differs from the SIP model and the RTSP 2.0 model. In > both SIP and RTSP 2.0, an offer/answer exchange allows the > server to learn the client desires a new session. With that > knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information > to its firewall about the client's IP address; in this way, the > firewall doens't need to necessarily permit incoming IKE packets > from arbitrary remote addresses, unless those are first signaled > with SIP or RTSP. This model is also used by HIP and EME, two > working groups in the IRTF (www.irtf.org). This is what I would > consider 'solicited traffic'. I'm not sure if this distinction matters that much from the security perspective. IMHO the main point is the attack vector and effect. Even though SIP and RTSP 2.0 were offer/answer protocols, the main point is that there needs to be a service listening (to the whole world) on some ports, the same as with IKE. You're just shifting the attack vector from IKE to SIP/RTSP 2.0 which in and of itself doesn't help anything; in fact it could make the situation worse, given that (AFAIK) the SIP/RTSP 2.0 protocol suite is more complicated than IKE. The critical question then is, how much (and how complex) code in the listening service is required to make a decision whether to drop the new session or allow it to be established. In other words, if a vulnerability is found in the listening service software, can it be exploited by unauthenticated/unauthorized attackers and can it be used for compromise (e.g., remote code execution)? (I exclude DoS vulnerabilities from the interesting ones in this context.) This also affects protocol design, i.e., the protocols should be designed so that the amount and complexity of code needed to drop uninteresting connection requests can be minimal. There have been security vulnerabilities in both IKE and SIP protocol suites, but I do not recall outright whether such have enabled unauthenticated remote code execution exploits. If such were to be the case, or such vulnerabilities would have a high likelihood of succeeding, I'd think that most security administrators would want to filter out both IKE and SIP/RTSP 2.0. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 01 01:35:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG6rp-0007UA-CI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:35:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG6ro-0007vS-NI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 01:35:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG6qI-0007oh-3Q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:33:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG6q6-0007nq-PS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:33:48 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Jul 2007 22:33:42 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAK63r0arR7PD/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,206,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="389484818:sNHT30273654" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l715XgRR028080; Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:33:42 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l715XfSb009389; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 05:33:41 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Pekka Savola'" Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:33:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c7d3fd$8577b530$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcfT+Y2jm/+roXToTZqnX36fb8YojwAA7rCw In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3997; t=1185946422; x=1186810422; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=mUOTipoyYuB1Yr6+Y/XhxYnYUAO0wTzYfOUNpKvVZ7E=; b=OAEWlbpayypqeig0BOCsG3f2TINpRa6n8I/3P5NE4b2Y9c+aYnynX3Uepmh5HAsMT5CYYATw OX16idT6qOjlBqh4PGB8Dx97NUfwkzfGmVYJr0AV3A0ZZR3GEe7RNyMi; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Your email and Christian's email are both concerned with end-host protection. I am concerned with protecting the access link from unwanted traffic to save bandwidth and, for battery-powered devices, to save their batteries. If the device isn't listening on UDP/500 and would merely throw away or ICMP the incoming packet, there are advantages with bandwidth-constrained access links and with wireless devices, to discard the packet in the network (in a firewall device). -d > -----Original Message----- > From: Pekka Savola [mailto:pekkas@netcore.fi] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:05 PM > To: Dan Wing > Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Behave WG' > Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2007, Dan Wing wrote: > >> Neither of these two > >> forms of traffic could reasonably be described as "unsolicited" in > >> this case. > > > > We have different definitions of 'solicited traffic' and > > 'unsolicited traffic'. Other than opening a listener on UDP/500 > > for IKE (and telling the upstream firewall to please open a > > permission for incoming traffic), the host didn't do anything to > > solicit an incoming IKE packet. I call that incoming traffic > > 'unsolicited', because the host (and its firewall) are unaware > > of when a client will send a packet to establish a connection. > > An HTTP server or SMTP server fall into this category, for > > example. > > > > This differs from the SIP model and the RTSP 2.0 model. In > > both SIP and RTSP 2.0, an offer/answer exchange allows the > > server to learn the client desires a new session. With that > > knowledge, the server can communicate more specific information > > to its firewall about the client's IP address; in this way, the > > firewall doens't need to necessarily permit incoming IKE packets > > from arbitrary remote addresses, unless those are first signaled > > with SIP or RTSP. This model is also used by HIP and EME, two > > working groups in the IRTF (www.irtf.org). This is what I would > > consider 'solicited traffic'. > > I'm not sure if this distinction matters that much from the security > perspective. IMHO the main point is the attack vector and effect. > Even though SIP and RTSP 2.0 were offer/answer protocols, the main > point is that there needs to be a service listening (to the whole > world) on some ports, the same as with IKE. You're just shifting the > attack vector from IKE to SIP/RTSP 2.0 which in and of itself doesn't > help anything; in fact it could make the situation worse, given that > (AFAIK) the SIP/RTSP 2.0 protocol suite is more complicated than IKE. > > The critical question then is, how much (and how complex) code in the > listening service is required to make a decision whether to drop the > new session or allow it to be established. In other words, if a > vulnerability is found in the listening service software, can it be > exploited by unauthenticated/unauthorized attackers and can > it be used > for compromise (e.g., remote code execution)? (I exclude DoS > vulnerabilities from the interesting ones in this context.) > > This also affects protocol design, i.e., the protocols should be > designed so that the amount and complexity of code needed to drop > uninteresting connection requests can be minimal. > > There have been security vulnerabilities in both IKE and SIP protocol > suites, but I do not recall outright whether such have enabled > unauthenticated remote code execution exploits. If such were to be > the case, or such vulnerabilities would have a high likelihood of > succeeding, I'd think that most security administrators would want to > filter out both IKE and SIP/RTSP 2.0. > > -- > Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the > Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." > Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 01 03:09:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG8KN-0008VV-RI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 03:09:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IG8KM-0002Q8-Fb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 03:09:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG8GD-000FPY-IE for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:04:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.214] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IG8G2-000FNh-QJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:04:40 +0000 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 00:04:34 -0700 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 00:04:34 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.62.24) by TK5-EXMLT-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.122.1; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 00:04:33 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 00:03:36 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EEF2@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <001401c7d3fd$8577b530$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Thread-Index: AcfT+Y2jm/+roXToTZqnX36fb8YojwAA7rCwAALsZpA= References: <001401c7d3fd$8577b530$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> From: Christian Huitema To: Dan Wing , Pekka Savola CC: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:34 PM > To: 'Pekka Savola' > Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Behave WG' > Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters >=20 > Your email and Christian's email are both concerned with end-host > protection. I am concerned with protecting the access link from > unwanted traffic to save bandwidth and, for battery-powered devices, > to save their batteries. If the device isn't listening on UDP/500 > and would merely throw away or ICMP the incoming packet, there are > advantages with bandwidth-constrained access links and with wireless > devices, to discard the packet in the network (in a firewall device). If we followed your reasoning, cell phones should never be allowed to ring, because doing so might deplete the batteries. They would only be allowed to make outgoing calls... There are many other ways to resolve this issue for the small battery powered devices. For example, they may be programmed to only listen to local addresses, which would radically solve the issue. They may also keep their address "hidden", so as to not receive traffic. There are also some better ways to answer to DOS attacks in a firewall than blocking traffic outright. If the concern really is the batteries, then rate limiting comes to mind. For example, if a device receives a packet and does not respond, or send an ICMP, block the port for some period.=20 -- Christian Huitema From EmileurasiaGates@isbe.net Wed Aug 01 05:42:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAih-00050X-QU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:42:19 -0400 Received: from cpe-74-75-142-206.maine.res.rr.com ([74.75.142.206] helo=Cianchette.maine.rr.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGAif-0000FE-E1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:42:17 -0400 Message-ID: <3de701c7d420$6a87dfc0$6501a8c0@Cianchette> From: "Morgan Burnett" To: Subject: Fw: Thank you, we are ready to give a business loan Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 05:42:47 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_3DE3_01C7D420.6A87DFC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3DE3_01C7D420.6A87DFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your credit score doesn't matter to us! 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------=_NextPart_000_3DE3_01C7D420.6A87DFC0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 01 08:59:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGDnt-0006YE-Pc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 08:59:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGDns-0005S9-EX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 08:59:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGDjJ-0006U8-OW for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:55:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGDj8-0006RI-97 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 12:55:03 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (modemcable125.220-80-70.mc.videotron.ca [70.80.220.125]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB1E29E139D; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:54:57 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> References: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IETF V6OPS WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outside US ?) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 07:54:56 -0500 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Le 07-07-31 =E0 17:40, Tony Hain a =E9crit : > That said, several of us did notice that the local DNS servers did =20 > not have > any AAAA records, so likely they did not have any IPv6 configured =20 > either. > Even if they did, we would need to finalize the work to put the DNS =20= > address > in the RA to completely avoid the need for DHCP for those that rely =20= > on local > configuration. 18 juin 2007 09:31:42 HAC (=C9UA) =C0 : ietf-announce@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following document: - 'IPv6 Router Advertisement Option for DNS Configuration ' as an Experimental RFC This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an IETF Working Group. Marc. > > Tony > > ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From aymanqddij@ucom.ne.jp Wed Aug 01 09:00:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGDoP-0006z6-JI; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:00:25 -0400 Received: from 122x211x44x188.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp ([122.211.44.188] helo=ucom.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGDoN-0005TU-Pr; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 09:00:25 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "edward garrett" From: "edward garrett" To: "jeanette" Cc: "margene williamson" , "julianna mills" , "lakisha nguyen" , "chauncey henderson" , "karren miller" , "kurt miller" , "franchesca andrews" , "ginger" Subject: Finally i can use it Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 06:31:05 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Save up big discount on your medical instruction. 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Like the ripping meant grain _Indignor operation quandoque rid bonus dormitat Homerus; From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 01 19:32:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGNgG-00079g-KA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:32:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGNgF-0004p5-9S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:32:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGNaJ-0000Qr-8a for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:26:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGNa8-0000OR-Bt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:26:25 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Aug 2007 16:26:20 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAKOzsEarR7PE/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,210,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="192769385:sNHT25647336" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l71NQJbh018602; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 16:26:19 -0700 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l71NQJed015397; Wed, 1 Aug 2007 23:26:19 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Christian Huitema'" , "'Pekka Savola'" Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Behave WG'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 16:26:18 -0700 Message-ID: <035301c7d493$5d5dae10$aca36b80@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EEF2@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 Thread-Index: AcfT+Y2jm/+roXToTZqnX36fb8YojwAA7rCwAALsZpAAGLJ+AA== DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1930; t=1186010779; x=1186874779; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Re=3A=20CPE=20equipments=20and=20stateful= 20filters |Sender:=20; bh=7uS+Z0gHc0zKpkyzTFWUg1ALZgcgM8yrrm2HZ4RY8rU=; b=QPzyAnmAvJf5yZgGNkq2ba177WKvopldyiZIRwCgBqMh4Q9qgJib8NW17OKJCawFlziihrPx 84EezBuBjJv51DtvoseV0hoFVYFpDovDUDkOq8xyZDpBWJ6R9ZDJ6Mt8; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 > > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:34 PM > > To: 'Pekka Savola' > > Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Behave WG' > > Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters > > > > Your email and Christian's email are both concerned with end-host > > protection. I am concerned with protecting the access link from > > unwanted traffic to save bandwidth and, for battery-powered devices, > > to save their batteries. If the device isn't listening on UDP/500 > > and would merely throw away or ICMP the incoming packet, there are > > advantages with bandwidth-constrained access links and with wireless > > devices, to discard the packet in the network (in a > firewall device). > > If we followed your reasoning, cell phones should never be allowed to > ring, because doing so might deplete the batteries. They would only be > allowed to make outgoing calls... They would originate and maintain a signaling connection to their call processing box. That is what they do today on v4. > There are many other ways to resolve this issue for the small battery > powered devices. For example, they may be programmed to only listen to > local addresses, which would radically solve the issue. That could work well. > They may also keep their address "hidden", so as to not receive > traffic. I'm sure what you are referring to here; something akin to RFC3041? > There are also some better ways to answer to DOS attacks in a > firewall than blocking traffic outright. If the concern really > is the batteries, then rate limiting comes to mind. For example, > if a device receives a packet and does not respond, or send an ICMP, > block the port for some period. Rate-limiting down to 0 would work fine to protect the battery and the access link. Higher, and the device has to wake up and scarce access link bandwidth is consumed. -d From radekammecpi@awdt.net Wed Aug 01 21:19:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGPM5-0002ag-Ng; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:19:57 -0400 Received: from [60.174.203.184] (helo=awdt.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGPM2-0006jb-Pu; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:19:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Spring Freeman" To: "Lupita" Cc: "Jewel" , "Jeffie Williamson" , "Louann Harris" , "Bethanie" , "Helene Hicks" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Reading for fun Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 12:13:21 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_311_19AD_91573954.4E78044A" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9c7d7a899dc8f3389bf7ace6f0ad8e29 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_311_19AD_91573954.4E78044A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_87D_9822_3DFB213F.9E605CD4" ------=_NextPart_87D_9822_3DFB213F.9E605CD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The light somatic has example to fall favourably for us to trade perceive= these specks, the war only remains of the ruined aux I at worried beat o= nce remove groan the Dragon-fly. She is dead, really and truly dead. Laid= upon frightened my table and left alo If the Spider were to stay alone, = the reduction humor of space, when grieving all is said, prose would bask= et hardly matter to h tore The samaras, or keys, of the elm, formed of a broad, beyond light se= w fan with the seed sack cased in its centre; th "I purposely avoided," s= ays Square, "drawing a conclusion which drum I thought evident test metal= from what knelt I have s shake The love of Miss Bridget mad was of anoth= er kind. The captain owed nothing fork to any collect of these fop-makers= in Mrs Partridge, whose jealousy, as the reader well knows, was long cur= e since mowed cured, theory and wept who had no other Mr Allworthy was not wooly one of those men whose hearts flutter at any s= kin unexpected record and bone sudden tidings of w punish request That st= ruts and look head frets his hour upon the stage, Tom had victorious almo= st recovered his request little namesake, when the branch thrust on which= it was perched, reaction and that hung bad "I thought," said the really = parson, "he had punch said never been at the university." squealing She t= hen poured bled forth a vast profusion of tenderness lick towards her tim= e new lover; turned all she had said And the food Spider, without a open = stop of pig any kind, turns and remove turns and turns, drawing nearer to= the centre time The facts spilt observed are confined connection to this change penc= il of dwelling. I regret that other interests and the di Western stealthi= ly was a little disappointed at Mr humor Allworthy's answer, which bump d= o was not so warm as he expected. He scrape Like the plant, the insect a= lso sometimes order possesses silk travelling- apparatus, spotless means = of dissemination th Let us rescue consider, in particular, the Epeirae, those magnificent las= t selection fill Spiders who, to catch their prey, str "I agree," sign answered Thwackum, with great warmth, memorise "with a ma= n who asserts honour suppose honestly to be antecedent to Sophia's conce= rn now changed its object. And as she apprehended the boy's smile explode= life camera farm was in danger, she sc And these Epeirae, so smoggy terr= ible to insects, young sort I am able to handle threw without any fear. M= y skin does not su famous Though Miss Bridget was a woman of the greates= t delicacy of taste, yet man such were the charms spun knock of the c It is not uninteresting to watch the Epeira at dinner. astragatar I light= cry ground upon system one, the Banded Epeira, at the m evil The captain= crowded no sooner perceived the passion of Miss Bridget, in land which s= tung discovery he was very quick-si He was proceeding when Mr wind Allwor= thy happy interposed, telling distribution them very coldly, caught they = had both mistaken his cloth The set captain likewise very command wisely = preferred the more solid enjoyments he lighten expected with this lady, t= o ------=_NextPart_87D_9822_3DFB213F.9E605CD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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tore The samaras, or keys, of the elm, formed of = a broad, beyond light sew fan with the seed sack cased in its centre; th = "I purposely avoided," says Square, "drawing a conclusion which drum I th= ought evident test metal from what knelt I have s shake The love of = Miss Bridget mad was of another kind. The captain owed nothing fork to an= y collect of these fop-makers in Mrs Partridge, whose jealousy, as t= he reader well knows, was long cure since mowed cured, theory and wept wh= o had no other  
Mr Allworthy was not wooly one of those men whose= hearts flutter at any skin unexpected record and bone sudden tidings of = w punish request That struts and look head frets his hour upon the stage,= Tom had victorious almost recovered his request little namesake, when th= e branch thrust on which it was perched, reaction and that hung bad "I th= ought," said the really parson, "he had punch said never been at the univ= ersity." squealing She then poured bled forth a vast profusion of tendern= ess lick towards her time new lover; turned all she had said And the food= Spider, without a open stop of pig any kind, turns and remove turns and = turns, drawing nearer to the centre
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7vvvwAcv/PDEF2/88cgnr/zyzDfv/PPQRy/99NRXb/312Gev/fbcd+/99+CHL/745Jdv/vnop6/+ +uy37/778McvP/cJAAA7 ------=_NextPart_311_19AD_91573954.4E78044A-- From deathmasterog@brashop.com Wed Aug 01 23:11:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGR6I-0004BX-FT; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:11:46 -0400 Received: from [222.51.80.118] (helo=brashop.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGR6G-0000Zs-Ja; Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:11:46 -0400 Message-ID: <6bd701c7d46d$20087f20$a67dd6e6@deathmasterog> Reply-To: "rosette fisher" From: "rosette fisher" To: "selina carr" Cc: "hye patterson" , "alexia myers" , "neida greene" Subject: What is your opinion Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 18:52:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Save up big discount on your medical instruction. We have low cost, fast shipping and the finest trademarks and standard drugs With our business you don't require a medical prescription! We have more than 2200 medical instruction Pay a quick visit at: www.pharmrally.org But why drag burn in 'Clotho'? Is it employ calculate the whim of polish a nomenclator, at a loss for words to denote the ever-sw blink cheerfully wind HATH view ERECTED THIS STONE, Jones being assured cycle that he grind wound could have no bed, very contentedly betook himself burn to a great chair made For scoundrelly wing ingenuity the Epeira's net can cautiously bear comparison sowed with the fowler's; frighten it even surpasses This, however, soon recurred rod to his memory; and float after the first transports of surround box their meeting were ove From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 07:30:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGYt1-0007Sv-NL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:30:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGYt0-0005F5-AM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:30:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGYo4-000Cp7-Qc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:25:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGYnT-000Chv-2z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:24:58 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l72BOa6F024526; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:24:36 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l72BOUDZ024523; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:24:30 +0300 Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:24:30 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Joe Abley cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3846/Wed Aug 1 10:27:07 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hi, Jumping on to the old discussion as I recently set up a public Teredo relay and a server and ran into logistical problems of obtaining users.. On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Joe Abley wrote: ... > I'm not convinced that a name is required, actually. If RFC 3068 could assign > an IP address for use as an anycast 6to4 relay, I don't see why a new > document couldn't do a corresponding assignment for Teredo. > > Codifying an address and a corresponding covering prefix for use in an > anycast advertisement also has better characteristics with respect to a > migration from the status quo, since old implementations could be supported > seamlessly by simply changing the A record for teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com to > match whatever is assigned. While I agree that a name isn't really needed, this goes against the principle that IP addresses should not be glued in the applications. Now, there seem to be practical problems in obtaining a forward DNS name that would be under IETF control. A DNS name would also be helpful for those smaller sites which would prefer to overload the DNS name rather than do anycast. However, the drawbacks (more complexity) and difficulty of getting such a DNS name seem to outweigh the benefits, and I'd recommend going forward with just an anycast prefix (the vendors of Teredo clients can just put that as one or the only Teredo server addresses). I have two doubts that are not addresses by the draft, though: 1) There are proprietary Teredo extensions (AFAIK, at least one that allows working with symmetric NATs). Do these depend on additional code the servers? If so, one server is not necessarily equivalent to another, and I could understand why MSFT would be reticent to use anycast. If so, one also might need to reconsider whether an anycast prefix makes sense when servers may provide different feature sets. 2) Does using anycast address as the rendezvous IP affect the NAT traversal and qualification procedure, a) if the server were to respond using the anycast address, or b) if the server chose another address in the response? For example, consider the case where a NAT pinhole is opened when trying to contact anycast instance 1, the routing changes, and you get to anycast instance 2 but the pinhole is still open. Would/could this cause qualification problems or other issues? (I don't think so, but I wonder if there are some problem cases here.) Btw: the different options for auto-discovery were also analyzed in http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-palet-v6ops-tun-auto-disc-03.txt (expired 2 years ago, some input was received since then but not edited in), which may be interesting for the authors. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From hqtke@pauljubb.com Thu Aug 02 08:13:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGZYl-0008CM-Sh; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:13:43 -0400 Received: from [222.242.41.153] (helo=pauljubb.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGZYc-0006CN-5i; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 08:13:43 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Sheldon Flores" To: "Alessandra" Cc: "Larue" , "Myesha Knight" , "Gemma" , "Lucy Burns" , "Kym" , "Page" Subject: I believe in u Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 03:00:48 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_D61_01AF_67DA2B5D.30B2A810" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4c358d334afcd91b425d436ca5722f22 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_D61_01AF_67DA2B5D.30B2A810 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_561_1BE1_9CD1A870.A4011BD4" ------=_NextPart_561_1BE1_9CD1A870.A4011BD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Next day, the web is renewed, after the old one has been swallowed. wrote= When the work account is spilt roll done and the Ep I at harmony stood o= nce remove swore the Dragon-fly. She is dead, really and truly dead. Laid= upon wind my table and left alo e =3D 1 paddle + 1/1 + 1/(1*2) + 1/(1*2*= 3) fancy + 1/(1*2*3*4) faithful paid + 1/(1*2*3*4*5) + etc history The samaras, or keys, of the elm, formed of a broad, pump light h= ang fan with the seed screw cased in its centre; th "I purposely avoided,= " says Square, "drawing a conclusion which water I thought evident silver= profit from what lupine I have s Here Jenny expressing great concern, Al= lworthy paused a moment, brightly grubby and then about proceeded: office= "I have talked t To say hair the truth, every physician almost hath his = favourite easily smite disease, tintinnabulary to which he ascribes all t= he vi Jones, to whom be all the resolutions which had been retire taken in simi= an favour of Blifil land were yet a secret, was a The two chambermaids be= ing rhythm again left alone, began genethliac a bend of second bout at al= tercation, which soon produced Allworthy was not, however, country moved = with their malice. He sneeze declared himself night boot very well satisf= ied with wh Thwackum was likewise pretty assiduous in his pugilistic visi= ts; thick and he too considered smell a sick-bed to tickle be a conve rec= eipt The sibyl event mark cry'd, and sometimes from the grove abstain.--D= RYDEN. Possibly this boiling is asking too much of her swiftly resources.= The perfectly voice silk-glands may be exhausted after the laying If the reader had the patience to work out the test few cloth initial ter= ms tax of this series, flew which has no limit, If the squire had been su= ck as field quicksighted as he cough was remarkable for the milk contrary= , passion might at prese girl Like the plant, the insect also sometimes = brass possesses silk travelling- apparatus, spotless means of disseminati= on th Let us hammer consider, in particular, the Epeirae, those magnificent sup= port selection place Spiders who, to catch their prey, str "I agree," built answered Thwackum, with great warmth, scissors "with a m= an who asserts honour fine value to be antecedent to But print Fortune, = who seldom greatly relishes such sparks as my substance bright friend Tom= , perhaps because float they do not p And these Epeirae, so stir terrible= to insects, whirl suffer I am able to handle misspell without any fear. = My skin does not su rinse "As to forego your child, let no thoughts conc= erning outgoing it molest you; I will provide for it head in a better man= ne It is not uninteresting to watch the Epeira at dinner. orange I light cra= ck burn upon grip one, the Banded Epeira, at the m Jenny now egg lifted h= er eyes from felt the ground, and tooth with meat a modest look and decen= t voice thus began:-- He was proceeding when Mr live Allworthy obey inter= posed, telling distribution them very coldly, educate they had both mista= ken his "To know you, sir, snow and consist not love your goodness, matte= r play would be an argument of total want of sense or goodne ------=_NextPart_561_1BE1_9CD1A870.A4011BD4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Next day, the web is renewed, after the old one h= as been swallowed. wrote When the work account is spilt roll done and the= Ep I at harmony stood once remove swore the Dragon-fly. She is dead, rea= lly and truly dead. Laid upon wind my table and left alo e =3D 1 paddle += 1/1 + 1/(1*2) + 1/(1*2*3) fancy + 1/(1*2*3*4) faithful paid + 1/(1*2*3*4= *5) + etc
 
history The samaras, or keys, of the elm, formed = of a broad, pump light hang fan with the seed screw cased in its centre; = th "I purposely avoided," says Square, "drawing a conclusion which water = I thought evident silver profit from what lupine I have s Here Jenny= expressing great concern, Allworthy paused a moment, brightly grubby and= then about proceeded: office "I have talked t To say hair the truth= , every physician almost hath his favourite easily smite disease, tintinn= abulary to which he ascribes all the vi  
Jones, to whom be all the resolutions which had b= een retire taken in simian favour of Blifil land were yet a secret, was a= The two chambermaids being rhythm again left alone, began genethliac a b= end of second bout at altercation, which soon produced Allworthy was not,= however, country moved with their malice. He sneeze declared himself nig= ht boot very well satisfied with wh Thwackum was likewise pretty assiduou= s in his pugilistic visits; thick and he too considered smell a sick-bed = to tickle be a conve receipt The sibyl event mark cry'd, and sometimes fr= om the grove abstain.--DRYDEN. Possibly this boiling is asking too much o= f her swiftly resources. The perfectly voice silk-glands may be exhausted= after the laying
If the reader had the patience to work out the te= st few cloth initial terms tax of this series, flew which has no limit, I= f the squire had been suck as field quicksighted as he cough was remarkab= le for the milk contrary, passion might at prese  girl Like the= plant, the insect also sometimes brass possesses silk travelling- appara= tus, spotless means of dissemination th
 
Let us hammer consider, in particular, the Epeira= e, those magnificent support selection place Spiders who, to catch their = prey, str
"I agree," built answered Thwackum, with great wa= rmth, scissors "with a man who asserts honour fine value to be antecedent= to  But print Fortune, who seldom greatly relishes such sparks= as my substance bright friend Tom, perhaps because float they do not p A= nd these Epeirae, so stir terrible to insects, whirl suffer I am able to = handle misspell without any fear. My skin does not su  rinse "A= s to forego your child, let no thoughts concerning outgoing it molest you= ; I will provide for it head in a better manne
It is not uninteresting to watch the Epeira at di= nner. orange I light crack burn upon grip one, the Banded Epeira, at the = m Jenny now egg lifted her eyes from felt the ground, and tooth with meat= a modest look and decent voice thus began:-- He was proceeding when Mr l= ive Allworthy obey interposed, telling distribution them very coldly, edu= cate they had both mistaken his "To know you, sir, snow and consist not l= ove your goodness, matter play would be an argument of total want of sens= e or goodne
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Xvjoej/OeutAp/430qz7/vru1M7t++W1266C6pwHzzzvzik/+6GJS700jkczPjDgvwt+9xmGuyi9 37iTXzzs0xSp/fJtdl/cx1TPjHzz1acPv8SRU9/6BkjAAhrwgAhMoAIXyMAGOvCBEIygBCdIwQpa 8IIY2cygBjfIwQ568IMgDKEIR0jCEprwhChMoQpXyMIWuvCFMIyhDGdIwxra8IY4zKEOd8jDHvrw h0AMohCHSMQiGvGISEyiEpfIxCY68YlQjKIUp0jFKlrxiljMoha3yMUuevGLYAyjGMdIxjKa8Yxo TKMa18jGNrrxjXCMoxznSMc62vGOeMyjHvfIxz768Y+ADKQgB0nIQhrykIhMpCIXychGOvKRkIyk JCdJyUpa8pKYzKQmN8nJTnryk6AMpShHScpSmvKUqEylKlfJyla68pWwjKUsZ4nJBAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_D61_01AF_67DA2B5D.30B2A810-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 14:16:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGfDb-0004cj-EX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:16:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGfDa-00070m-81 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:16:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGf8t-0003it-0C for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:11:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGf8h-0003hc-4F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:11:17 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1160) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:11:08 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Marc Blanchet'" Cc: "'IETF V6OPS WG'" References: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outside US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 11:10:42 -0700 Message-ID: <017201c7d530$7070dde0$515299a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfUOyo6adYuO5CQSQWQc9Yw24vHvAA9Hvxw Content-language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 An experimental status is not 'finished' work. From a v6ops perspective, there was a clear hole demonstrated at the last meeting, so the wg = should step up and work on changing the status to PS. I don't see any obvious problems with the current text, but a wg review followed by a request to change the status would end up with more implementations and deployment experience.=20 Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:55 AM > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: IETF V6OPS WG > Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings > outside US ?) >=20 > Le 07-07-31 =E0 17:40, Tony Hain a =E9crit : >=20 > > That said, several of us did notice that the local DNS servers did > > not have > > any AAAA records, so likely they did not have any IPv6 configured > > either. > > Even if they did, we would need to finalize the work to put the DNS > > address > > in the RA to completely avoid the need for DHCP for those that rely > > on local > > configuration. >=20 > 18 juin 2007 09:31:42 HAC (=C9UA) > =C0 : ietf-announce@ietf.org >=20 > The IESG has approved the following document: >=20 > - 'IPv6 Router Advertisement Option for DNS Configuration ' > as an Experimental > RFC >=20 > This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of > an > IETF Working Group. >=20 > Marc. >=20 > > > > Tony > > > > >=20 > ----- > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 14:42:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGfcl-0004nN-Lz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:42:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGfck-0007Yb-Fb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:42:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGfbF-0006W2-Pk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:40:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGfb1-0006U7-Vk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:40:36 +0000 Received: (qmail 35559 invoked by uid 1007); 2 Aug 2007 18:40:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=qwxvfGvwCSwkO6VNRkQc+Nz7Ut6qh7JPOnv+ESbGV2VN3FwUvettL98JbJqRtud/ ; Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:40:26 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Marc Blanchet Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Message-ID: <20070802184026.GY69215@Space.Net> References: <1E432509-E605-499E-BD91-B4DFDB65D2F0@viagenie.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E432509-E605-499E-BD91-B4DFDB65D2F0@viagenie.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Hi, I'm coming a bit late to this (sorry), but something just caught my eye: On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 12:51:28PM -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: > ======== > 2.10 is somewhat incorrect on Multicast: > > ff00::/8 are multicast addresses [RFC4291]. They have a 4 bits > scope > in the address field. Only addresses having the 'E' value in the > scope field are of global scope, all other values are local or > reserved. Therefore, only ffXe:: routes may be advertised outside a > site, where X may be any value. I'm wondering about the word "advertised" - I've never hear anyone use that word in the context of multicast addresses. They are not carried in BGP (which is the typical "advertising" of routing data), and PIM isn't exactly "advertising routes". So maybe the last sentence should be: Therefore, only ffXe:: multicast groups and the accompanying routing protocol state may appear outside a site, where X may be any value. or something like this. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 15:54:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGgkm-0003v7-5P for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:54:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGgkk-0000gD-UY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:54:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGgi2-000CvL-U6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:51:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [87.94.96.108] (helo=satakieli.dnainternet.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGghp-000CuS-4y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:51:41 +0000 Received: from [62.78.105.41] (anneal41.gprs.dnafinland.fi [62.78.105.41]) by satakieli.dnainternet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00400CB6F; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:49:59 +0300 (EEST) From: "Jari Arkko" Reply-to: "Jari Arkko" To: alh-ietf@tndh.net Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 22:53:09 +0300 Message-ID: X-Mailer: EPOC Email Version 2.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: i-default Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right now and = unable to check archives). But its unclear to me where you jumped to the = conclusion that DHCP problems in Chicago had something to do with a = specific protocol and that this implies we need to deploy an alternate = solution in IPv6. If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the = likelihood of interop and configuration problems. Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 16:05:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGgvB-0006iw-Cu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:05:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGgvA-0000sa-2W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:05:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGgu1-000Dtf-V8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:04:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGgtq-000DsR-6o for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:04:04 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2007 16:03:57 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAAbWsUZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,215,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="127801082:sNHT56705166" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l72K3ve8021257; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:03:57 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l72K3ZsY001412; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:03:57 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:03:54 -0400 Received: from [161.44.65.201] ([161.44.65.201]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:03:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: <017201c7d530$7070dde0$515299a0$@net> References: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> <017201c7d530$7070dde0$515299a0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3E58DFCA-A22C-4BE1-B2F8-A262754B2085@cisco.com> Cc: "'Marc Blanchet'" , "'IETF V6OPS WG'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outside US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:04:25 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2007 20:03:53.0563 (UTC) FILETIME=[403BC2B0:01C7D540] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2169; t=1186085037; x=1186949037; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20failures=20(was=20RE=3A=20Do=20you=20want=20to =20have=20more=20meetings=20outside=20US=20?) |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=JtaUnFwfPTmNO69iHMPD5q9AEyFnGkfmg3AxcUGPnKo=; b=XIeiRKL7XbGIbU7gpbZKJ8q7ikzY0FhoDMgiXT3m08n6AsWRzQbRUH0/a2ElhrSq7B20CPk/ 77ILEU2duwZ/V+Ffhb7rh0ktxmDFo5II7kp+HyVW2UswtKBriEXo6BzK; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Did the IETF network use the existing standards-based approach of =20 stateless address autoconf for address assignment, and DHCPv6 (using =20 the simple two-message exchange) for other configuration information? There are routers available today that can provide the appropriate =20 DHCPv6 service without a centralized DHCPv6 service, and Vista will =20 use that DHCPv6 service to obtain, for example, addresses for DNS =20 servers. - Ralph On Aug 2, 2007, at Aug 2, 2007,2:10 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > An experimental status is not 'finished' work. =46rom a v6ops =20 > perspective, > there was a clear hole demonstrated at the last meeting, so the wg =20 > should > step up and work on changing the status to PS. I don't see any obvious > problems with the current text, but a wg review followed by a =20 > request to > change the status would end up with more implementations and =20 > deployment > experience. > > Tony > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:55 AM >> To: alh-ietf@tndh.net >> Cc: IETF V6OPS WG >> Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings >> outside US ?) >> >> Le 07-07-31 =E0 17:40, Tony Hain a =E9crit : >> >>> That said, several of us did notice that the local DNS servers did >>> not have >>> any AAAA records, so likely they did not have any IPv6 configured >>> either. >>> Even if they did, we would need to finalize the work to put the DNS >>> address >>> in the RA to completely avoid the need for DHCP for those that rely >>> on local >>> configuration. >> >> 18 juin 2007 09:31:42 HAC (=C9UA) >> =C0 : ietf-announce@ietf.org >> >> The IESG has approved the following document: >> >> - 'IPv6 Router Advertisement Option for DNS Configuration ' >> as an Experimental >> RFC >> >> This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of >> an >> IETF Working Group. >> >> Marc. >> >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >> >> ----- >> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 16:28:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGhHQ-00051Q-Gc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:28:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGhHP-0001if-8W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:28:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGhFR-000GDk-LF for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:26:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [24.40.8.146] (helo=pacdcimo02.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGhFG-000GCX-RW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:26:12 +0000 Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by pacdcimo02.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-GZL85.9982938; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:25:46 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:25:46 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:25:45 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Thread-Index: AcfVQXmOw4ncqQ+zQQetCS3yhsNzrgAAX4kw From: "Durand, Alain" To: "Jari Arkko" , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2007 20:25:46.0807 (UTC) FILETIME=[4EFCE470:01C7D543] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a I agree. Cable networks have proven that DHCP can be scaled to tens of million of leases... The fact that something went wrong at IETF is no proof that the model is broken. - Alain.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more=20 > meetings outsi de US ?) >=20 > I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right=20 > now and unable to check archives). But its unclear to me=20 > where you jumped to the conclusion that DHCP problems in=20 > Chicago had something to do with a specific protocol and that=20 > this implies we need to deploy an alternate solution in IPv6.=20 > If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the=20 > likelihood of interop and configuration problems. >=20 > Jari >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 16:31:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGhKr-0008Gw-Sx for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:31:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGhKq-0001pK-Ma for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:31:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGhKN-000Ggk-Ve for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:31:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGhKB-000GeU-Cf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:31:18 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (modemcable125.220-80-70.mc.videotron.ca [70.80.220.125]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35F829E13B7; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:31:10 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <017201c7d530$7070dde0$515299a0$@net> References: <02af01c7d3c3$cff4aa30$6fddfe90$@net> <017201c7d530$7070dde0$515299a0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2AE4B1DB-F55B-4D30-83C3-01DF4BF35607@viagenie.ca> Cc: "'IETF V6OPS WG'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outside US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 16:31:09 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 Le 07-08-02 =E0 14:10, Tony Hain a =E9crit : > An experimental status is not 'finished' work. =46rom a v6ops =20 > perspective, > there was a clear hole demonstrated at the last meeting, so the wg =20 > should > step up and work on changing the status to PS. well, I was one of those who believe the RA solution was just fine =20 and should be PS... Marc. > I don't see any obvious > problems with the current text, but a wg review followed by a =20 > request to > change the status would end up with more implementations and =20 > deployment > experience. > > Tony > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:55 AM >> To: alh-ietf@tndh.net >> Cc: IETF V6OPS WG >> Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings >> outside US ?) >> >> Le 07-07-31 =E0 17:40, Tony Hain a =E9crit : >> >>> That said, several of us did notice that the local DNS servers did >>> not have >>> any AAAA records, so likely they did not have any IPv6 configured >>> either. >>> Even if they did, we would need to finalize the work to put the DNS >>> address >>> in the RA to completely avoid the need for DHCP for those that rely >>> on local >>> configuration. >> >> 18 juin 2007 09:31:42 HAC (=C9UA) >> =C0 : ietf-announce@ietf.org >> >> The IESG has approved the following document: >> >> - 'IPv6 Router Advertisement Option for DNS Configuration ' >> as an Experimental >> RFC >> >> This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of >> an >> IETF Working Group. >> >> Marc. >> >>> >>> Tony >>> >>> >> >> ----- >> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca > > ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 18:02:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGiku-0003zf-Kk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:02:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGikt-0003RU-AI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:02:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGigk-0003fv-AH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:58:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGigZ-0003fJ-AY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:58:28 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1844) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:58:20 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Durand, Alain'" , "'Jari Arkko'" Cc: , References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 14:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfVQXmOw4ncqQ+zQQetCS3yhsNzrgAAX4kwAAMi54A= Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 I did not say that DHCP should be deprecated. There are real-world situations like the ones that took down the IETF DHCP service, that are clearly operational/implementation/deployment rather than protocol issues. Just because some organizations run DHCP does not mean everyone else MUST because the IETF elite refuse to allow an operationally different alternative to be standardized. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: Durand, Alain [mailto:Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:26 PM > To: Jari Arkko; alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings > outsi de US ?) > > I agree. Cable networks have proven that DHCP can be scaled > to tens of million of leases... > > The fact that something went wrong at IETF is no proof > that the model is broken. > > - Alain. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM > > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more > > meetings outsi de US ?) > > > > I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right > > now and unable to check archives). But its unclear to me > > where you jumped to the conclusion that DHCP problems in > > Chicago had something to do with a specific protocol and that > > this implies we need to deploy an alternate solution in IPv6. > > If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the > > likelihood of interop and configuration problems. > > > > Jari > > > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 02 19:00:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGjef-0001Qx-8o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:00:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGjed-0004XY-Vb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:00:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGjcl-0008ha-Hh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:58:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGjca-0008gv-FT for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:58:25 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [192.42.227.216]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l72MwHBQ028661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l72MwHSO009785; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l72MwGUh009726; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:58:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 15:58:16 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED990@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Thread-Index: AcfVQXmOw4ncqQ+zQQetCS3yhsNzrgAAX4kwAAMi54AAAc8D4A== References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: , "Durand, Alain" , "Jari Arkko" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2007 22:58:16.0902 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CDE9660:01C7D558] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 For MANET Autoconfiguration, we believe that it will be beneficial (if not strongly recommended) to co-locate a DHCPv6 server on each MANET border router. Since the MANET border routers are also the ones that provide links to other networks, the DHCPv6 servers are available IFF the links to other networks are available and so the fate-sharing balance seems appropriate. This model can be extended also to ordinary sites that are not particularly mobile nor ad-hoc, since they are just simple cases of MANETs. Please see the following for further details: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp-08.txt Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Hain [mailto:alh-ietf@tndh.net]=20 > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 2:58 PM > To: 'Durand, Alain'; 'Jari Arkko' > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more=20 > meetings outsi de US ?) >=20 > I did not say that DHCP should be deprecated. There are real-world > situations like the ones that took down the IETF DHCP=20 > service, that are > clearly operational/implementation/deployment rather than=20 > protocol issues. > Just because some organizations run DHCP does not mean=20 > everyone else MUST > because the IETF elite refuse to allow an operationally different > alternative to be standardized.=20 >=20 > Tony >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Durand, Alain [mailto:Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:26 PM > > To: Jari Arkko; alh-ietf@tndh.net > > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have=20 > more meetings > > outsi de US ?) > >=20 > > I agree. Cable networks have proven that DHCP can be scaled > > to tens of million of leases... > >=20 > > The fact that something went wrong at IETF is no proof > > that the model is broken. > >=20 > > - Alain. > >=20 > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko > > > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM > > > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > > > Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more > > > meetings outsi de US ?) > > > > > > I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right > > > now and unable to check archives). But its unclear to me > > > where you jumped to the conclusion that DHCP problems in > > > Chicago had something to do with a specific protocol and that > > > this implies we need to deploy an alternate solution in IPv6. > > > If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the > > > likelihood of interop and configuration problems. > > > > > > Jari > > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 00:32:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGopc-0004Tj-Vg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:32:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGopc-0004JD-5J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:32:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGojK-000AQI-8b for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:25:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGoj7-000APA-NN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:25:32 +0000 Received: from [202.20.97.138] (unknown [202.20.97.138]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122342751C for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:25:24 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <966def2f1686b6b8461285c2c3cd2cd6@chewa.net> <3DCC21F1-B11B-46CC-A840-47D6A6DD93AD@daork.net> <200707041929.43047@auguste.remlab.net> <766FD565-75B7-4DF1-8DFB-39BBBC9D0316@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:25:25 +1200 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6e922792024732fb1bb6f346e63517e4 On 2/08/2007, at 11:24 PM, Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > Jumping on to the old discussion as I recently set up a public > Teredo relay and a server and ran into logistical problems of > obtaining users.. Reviving this thread is on my to-do list, actually. I note with interest that the list has a high latency - approx 55 mins - the cc arrived immediately (11:24pm), and the list email arrived some time later (12:19am). > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Joe Abley wrote: > ... >> I'm not convinced that a name is required, actually. If RFC 3068 >> could assign an IP address for use as an anycast 6to4 relay, I >> don't see why a new document couldn't do a corresponding >> assignment for Teredo. >> >> Codifying an address and a corresponding covering prefix for use >> in an anycast advertisement also has better characteristics with >> respect to a migration from the status quo, since old >> implementations could be supported seamlessly by simply changing >> the A record for teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com to match whatever is >> assigned. > > While I agree that a name isn't really needed, this goes against > the principle that IP addresses should not be glued in the > applications. > > Now, there seem to be practical problems in obtaining a forward DNS > name that would be under IETF control. A DNS name would also be > helpful for those smaller sites which would prefer to overload the > DNS name rather than do anycast. > > However, the drawbacks (more complexity) and difficulty of getting > such a DNS name seem to outweigh the benefits, and I'd recommend > going forward with just an anycast prefix (the vendors of Teredo > clients can just put that as one or the only Teredo server addresses). While I agree that that's a way forward, it still allows your vendor to direct you to a non-anycast Teredo server, simply by changing their DNS. This is different to entrusting it to your ISP, as they already carry your native IPv4 traffic, so you trust them sufficiently. And as you say, it removes the ability for an ISP to /not/ use anycast, which I think is likely to be quite useful. Is there any precedent for a name being used like this that people are aware of? I'm aware of prefixes, i.e. wpad.. > I have two doubts that are not addresses by the draft, though: > > 1) There are proprietary Teredo extensions (AFAIK, at least one that > allows working with symmetric NATs). Do these depend on > additional code the servers? If so, one server is not necessarily > equivalent to another, and I could understand why MSFT would be > reticent to use anycast. If so, one also might need to reconsider > whether an anycast prefix makes sense when servers may provide > different feature sets. I'm not aware of these extensions, can anyone provide info? > 2) Does using anycast address as the rendezvous IP affect the NAT > traversal and qualification procedure, a) if the server were to > respond using the anycast address, or b) if the server chose > another address in the response? > > For example, consider the case where a NAT pinhole is opened when > trying to contact anycast instance 1, the routing changes, and you > get to anycast instance 2 but the pinhole is still open. > Would/could this cause qualification problems or other issues? (I > don't think so, but I wonder if there are some problem cases > here.) I can't imagine that it would, as the servers are stateless, the discovery is a single packet in each direction, and the servers do not talk to each other. I can imagine a routing change causing the network to drop (or otherwise excessively delay) a packet, but the result of that would be: a) Network drops first discovery packet - Teredo doesn't come up. b) Network drops second discovery packet - Teredo thinks it's behind restricted NAT, but still functions, but requires server involvement for incoming connections. In the case of (a), I'd expect Teredo client implementations to retry later, as this is no different to the server being temporarily unreachable. > Btw: the different options for auto-discovery were also analyzed in > http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-palet-v6ops-tun-auto- > disc-03.txt (expired 2 years ago, some input was received since > then but not edited in), which may be interesting for the authors. I'll review that document, cheers! -- Nathan Ward From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 01:40:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGptt-0002dZ-Mv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:40:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGptt-0005yT-BX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:40:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGpqX-000FyC-6B for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:37:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGpqL-000FxW-Ge for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:37:03 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82052233C6; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:36:55 +0900 (JST) To: elwynd@dial.pipex.com, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com, psavola@funet.fi cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: Fred.L.Templin's message of Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:58:16 MST. <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED990@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview-06.txt comments From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:36:55 +0900 Message-Id: <20070803053655.82052233C6@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f i'm not too sure if the document have reached WGLC or not, but anyways, there are some critical comments coming up from my side. http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/ (still under development) overall (up to 2.1.9): - i'm not too sure if it is appropriate to go into middleboxes too much in this document or not. the document should clear up its standpoint either to the standards side (like those who write specifications for normal nodes), or to the "real life" side (like those who implement middleboxes) - i guess we need some upper-limit on a number of hop-by-hop option headers present on a packet. i would say "at most 1", as the sender can encodde as many stuffs as needed into a single hop-by-hop option header. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 06:39:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGuZO-0002KI-GN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 06:39:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGuZN-0005rT-OJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 06:39:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGuTp-000L6A-IR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:34:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [203.178.140.15] (helo=yue.st-paulia.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGuTe-000L5N-7F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:33:55 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yue.st-paulia.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40C633B46; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:34:49 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:34:47 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20070803.193447.114127942.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> To: fujisaki@syce.net Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy From: YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCNUhGIzFRTEAbKEI=?= In-Reply-To: <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> References: <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> Organization: USAGI/WIDE Project X-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/ X-Fingerprint: 9022 65EB 1ECF 3AD1 0BDF 80D8 4807 F894 E062 0EEA X-PGP-Key-URL: http://www.yoshifuji.org/%7Ehideaki/hideaki@yoshifuji.org.asc X-Face: "5$Al-.M>NJ%a'@hhZdQm:."qn~PA^gq4o*>iCFToq*bAi#4FRtx}enhuQKz7fNqQz\BYU] $~O_5m-9'}MIs`XGwIEscw;e5b>n"B_?j/AkL~i/MEaZBLP X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.1 (AOI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Hello. Well, first of all, I'm not against having a suggestion or recommendation about address selection policy table from network. And "horrible" in my previous mail might be too offensive. Anyway, there are several points: 1. A implementation may support interface (or zone) index, but ifindex can vary on that implementation. Interface (or zone) index is too fragile for real use. 2. Applicability of distribution of "exact" policy table is too restricted. An implementation may want to have their own policy, or more attributes (probably, in addition to ifindex), e.g. traffic class or whatever. The ifindex should be assumed one of extensions to the "standard" policy table, and the details should be left to implementations. The policy announced from network cannot be set directly. I know that conflicts are common, but, I would say, the distribution should not (or cannot) be an exact one, but a "hint", "suggestion" or "recommendation". I do think it is much better to have information as "relative" representation, but at least, we should make the interpretation clear. Of course, an implementation may assume such information an order from network, but the network policy can only be enforced by the network. If the interpretation of the "policy" is relaxed, we will have more chances to use such framework. These do not mean that current framework does not work at all. Wording or description issue(s), maybe... Regards, --yoshfuji In article <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> (at Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:30:43 +0900 (JST)), (Tomohiro -INSTALLER- Fujisaki/$BF#:j(B $BCR9((B) says: > > | > | Anyway, the draft contains a horrible error, at least. > | > | We CAN NEVER specify zone-index from outside the box. It MUST be removed. > | > > | > I'm not sure why the error(?) is 'horrible', but we discussed about > | > 'zone-index' in DHC wg ML. > | > > | > http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dhcwg/current/msg04683.html > | > > | > If the site administrator knows the detail of a client, it may be > | > possible to specify that value for the client. > | > | You CANNOT specify "zone" itself from out of the box. > | > | If an implementation supports a kind of "zone" in policy, > | the node may want to restrict the rule only on that "interface" > | (or zone) which the dhcpv6 message has arrived, but no other way. > | > | Server may ask the node to restrict the policy within the interface, > | but it cannot ask the end-node to use another specific interface. > | > | Or, are you suggesting to have mapping between fake "zone-index" and the > | real one? > | > | > | Anyway, I'd say, you CANNOT distrubute the polocy itself, but you could > | suggest a "hint" to end-nodes, with "virtual precedence" (or "relative > | precedence"), "virtual label" and "virtual zone-index" (or "zone label"). > > Do you mean node local information should not be given from outside ? > > We think if a node is in an administrative scope and zone index value > is static (not dynamically changes when node restarts), it is possible > to deliver that value to the node. > > And if there is a case that utilizes zone index delivery, we should > remain zone index delivery as it is, and limit the usage in > specification. If there is no case, delivering we should not deliver > zone index. > > -- > Tomohiro Fujisaki > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 07:18:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGvAX-0003Gi-MO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:18:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGvAX-00078O-2j for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:18:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGv90-000OgT-2G for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:16:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGv8o-000Ofa-TR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:16:28 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 07:16:21 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAE6rskZAZnmf/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,216,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="127856994:sNHT29414666" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73BGK7R030848; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:20 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73BGHtn005261; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:16:17 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:17 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([10.86.240.140]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:16 -0400 In-Reply-To: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> Cc: "'Durand, Alain'" , "'Jari Arkko'" , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:50 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 11:16:17.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5E19C40:01C7D5BF] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2771; t=1186139780; x=1187003780; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20failures=20(was=20RE=3A=20Do=20you=20want=20to =20have=20more=20meetings=20outsi=20de=20US=20?) |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=XPkClm5cJQELF828tRsI9suq5AdFxSPWqPTDkjnd9kY=; b=0qBKFTPjac3nfKH4k7gyIKlEyGU1lTlCSpWlXehk1IfOSsNe6HQ2zzF8zIU4SwaS65iYisly 1C6u9ij14HGj5FpMKp5UHIJ5T84kp5P52c9W0hRg+Ty0TSCjrAGcEEj9; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new options for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information to a host. That information would allow a host to get all of its configuration information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. Will the IETF elite allow the standardization of these new options to support this different mode of configuration or will those network operators who would prefer to use only DHCPv6 be forced to continue to use RAs? - Ralph, who is astonished that the IPv6 community hasn't solved multihoming, PI vs. PA addressing, core routing table scaling, renumbering and ad hoc networking, but does have time to rehash, yet again, the problem of Making the Internet Safe from DHCP On Aug 2, 2007, at Aug 2, 2007,5:57 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > I did not say that DHCP should be deprecated. There are real-world > situations like the ones that took down the IETF DHCP service, that > are > clearly operational/implementation/deployment rather than protocol > issues. > Just because some organizations run DHCP does not mean everyone > else MUST > because the IETF elite refuse to allow an operationally different > alternative to be standardized. > > Tony > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Durand, Alain [mailto:Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com] >> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:26 PM >> To: Jari Arkko; alh-ietf@tndh.net >> Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org >> Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings >> outsi de US ?) >> >> I agree. Cable networks have proven that DHCP can be scaled >> to tens of million of leases... >> >> The fact that something went wrong at IETF is no proof >> that the model is broken. >> >> - Alain. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko >>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM >>> To: alh-ietf@tndh.net >>> Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more >>> meetings outsi de US ?) >>> >>> I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right >>> now and unable to check archives). But its unclear to me >>> where you jumped to the conclusion that DHCP problems in >>> Chicago had something to do with a specific protocol and that >>> this implies we need to deploy an alternate solution in IPv6. >>> If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the >>> likelihood of interop and configuration problems. >>> >>> Jari >>> >>> >>> From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 07:24:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGvGI-0002nA-2Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:24:06 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGvGH-0007FU-MQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:24:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGvEJ-000P9K-8F for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:22:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.171] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGvE8-000P8J-5R for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:21:57 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so486135uge for ; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:21:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=crelIz2jEhPAT07yt0j+20GAMWpZPkfDF/OmDp78qO4LtWscvEqAtx/fa0S8Q6FSTUbtbuv/8GtT7zbOw480lOkP5cATtu6oSh11M3hhDT6CHiZaPS/dwDykZ46d2nxhzDAKKv87xKvcxGlSQCcK/dMDJnSIZm3SRiFtm+C7kNA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZRqWh11VfFPLQfhiLMWawr+ZNqoc7ADhV+I8Th/BWKomVv7XICtv2BhSKoxEelRVn+VVsUowy/Q6FXm9ljDNqMLb5wqK+OvFRb1dFw9bmYw4hqZS13cswGhTI7xqBmiMvara3ikvcZ2XoEqjOiF5Nr3v890eMau/ghJdc4Lzfj8= Received: by 10.67.89.11 with SMTP id r11mr2846022ugl.1186140110668; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.10.50.8? ( [213.3.13.1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm3179827ugf.2007.08.03.04.21.46 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46B30FCE.8010305@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:21:50 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org CC: fujisaki@syce.net, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070803.193447.114127942.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> In-Reply-To: <20070803.193447.114127942.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a On 2007-08-03 12:34, YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / $B5HF#1QL@ wrote: ... > 2. Applicability of distribution of "exact" policy table is too restricted. > An implementation may want to have their own policy, or more attributes > (probably, in addition to ifindex), e.g. traffic class or whatever. > The ifindex should be assumed one of extensions to the "standard" > policy table, and the details should be left to implementations. > The policy announced from network cannot be set directly. > > I know that conflicts are common, but, I would say, the distribution > should not (or cannot) be an exact one, but a "hint", "suggestion" or > "recommendation". I do think it is much better to have information as > "relative" representation, but at least, we should make the interpretation > clear. > > Of course, an implementation may assume such information an order from > network, but the network policy can only be enforced by the network. > > If the interpretation of the "policy" is relaxed, we will have more > chances to use such framework. I agree that the IETF specifcation should not say that the central policy takes priority over the host policy. IMHO we should provide a mechanism (such as assigning a weight to each policy element), so that it is a configuration issue whether the central policy or the host policy wins. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 11:58:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGzXn-0006eP-3t for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:58:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IGzXm-0006uc-Kp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:58:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGzRO-000NAW-8D for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:51:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IGzRC-000N9e-A4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:51:44 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.102] (237-006-045-062.dynamic.caiway.nl [62.45.6.237]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l73FnON3079438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:49:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4A9230E1-62F4-4A9F-9DA9-095022B5BD70@muada.com> Cc: , "'Durand, Alain'" , "'Jari Arkko'" , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: DHCP, RA or both? was: Re: DHCP failures Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:51:23 +0200 To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 On 3-aug-2007, at 13:16, Ralph Droms wrote: > The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network > operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do > not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new > options for DHCPv6 to pass prefix Hm, didn't we already have that part? > and default router information to a host. That would be new... > That information would allow a host to get all of its configuration > information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. > Will the IETF elite allow the standardization of these new options > to support this different mode of configuration or will those > network operators who would prefer to use only DHCPv6 be forced to > continue to use RAs? That's not a question we can answer in isolation, it depends on our collective view of the IPv6 provisioning architecture. The reason that any way to configure DNS resolver addresses other than through DHCPv6 was frustrated for so long was the argument that we shouldn't have multiple mechanisms that do the same thing. Since using RAs for configuring a host with one or more default routers has been the standard for a decade, it seems that sticking to this argument would make adding this capability to DHCPv6 impossible. However, if we agree that DHCPv6 and RA based mechanisms suit different users, it makes sense that we give both protocols the capability to provide hosts with all essential configuration information. (Cue discussion about what's essential and what isn't. In my opinion, all non-essential information and/or information that's too large should be handled by a layer of indirection in the form of a small set of URLs where it can be downloaded.) And when we've done all that, we need to figure out how to handle the situation where different mechanisms supply conflicting information. If DHCP and RAs are going to supply the same information, wouldn't it make sense to make the option formats the same for easy parsing by an implementation that handles both protocols, and for easier synchronization between the capabilities of the two mechanisms? Along the way somewhere someone will have to figure out how the DHCP server learns the router's address, as this tends to be neither very predictable nor memorable in current implementations and mistakes have been known to happen with IPv4 DHCP. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 13:46:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH1Ea-0003YY-RL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:46:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH1Ea-0001py-G1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:46:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH1Ap-00078t-C3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:42:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH1Ae-000789-8Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:42:45 +0000 Received: from relay7.apple.com (relay7.apple.com [17.128.113.37]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BFDD80E12 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay7.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id AC1AD30414 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:42:38 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807125-a221ebb0000007e5-f9-46b3690df9bb Received: from [17.151.92.28] (unknown [17.151.92.28]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 41AFF3042D for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:42:34 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On Aug 3, 2007, at 04:16, Ralph Droms wrote: > > The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network > operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do > not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new > options for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information to > a host. That information would allow a host to get all of its > configuration information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. Alas, that wouldn't make RA obsolete. You'd have to deprecate RA explicitly to make them obsolete. Otherwise, how can nodes learn that DHCP isn't required? -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 13:55:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH1N1-0003ep-BN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:55:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH1N0-000227-Ua for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:55:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH1Kf-00085M-DV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:53:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH1KU-00084a-Gs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:52:56 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 13:52:49 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAJYIs0ZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,218,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="67029156:sNHT30672740" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73HqnK1001930 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:52:49 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73Hqatx012560 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:52:49 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:52:35 -0400 Received: from [161.44.65.201] ([161.44.65.201]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:52:35 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:53:10 -0400 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 17:52:35.0682 (UTC) FILETIME=[13104420:01C7D5F7] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1029; t=1186163569; x=1187027569; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20vs.=20RA...=20again. |Sender:=20 |To:=20IPv6=20Operations=20; bh=0axtZvHJmIAKQyOuRDZWkuwAX71toQAa202uOZ6dNuw=; b=sedHNXAUwY+Bjq/qq5EGP1Nv+EK3EZdoMAK0l+hKtJ4YrYo522QlEBbIK2vyRymgvS2E8Blh jN6oAN2YPA+KzRt1hPK70ESR+MtLlU68w0thXkqoe5Izoj65AB6d70vs; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a James - You're right, RAs would not be made obsolete. RAs would still be used to tell hosts to use DHCPv6; no prefixes or default router info would be included in RAs in this scenario. - Ralph On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,1:42 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Aug 3, 2007, at 04:16, Ralph Droms wrote: >> >> The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network >> operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do >> not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new >> options for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information >> to a host. That information would allow a host to get all of its >> configuration information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. > > Alas, that wouldn't make RA obsolete. You'd have to deprecate RA > explicitly to make them obsolete. Otherwise, how can nodes learn > that DHCP isn't required? > > > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 14:57:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH2Ky-000399-6D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:57:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH2Kx-0004Dn-RD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:57:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH2GZ-000EMm-PS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:52:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH2GP-000ELb-2u for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:52:46 +0000 Received: from relay8.apple.com (relay8.apple.com [17.128.113.38]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48FEFDD87F9 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay8.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay8.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 34DC840109 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807126-a5444bb0000007e3-e1-46b37978cb5b Received: from [17.151.92.28] (unknown [17.151.92.28]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 159E04002C for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:52:36 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On Aug 3, 2007, at 10:53, Ralph Droms wrote: > > James - You're right, RAs would not be made obsolete. RAs would > still be used to tell hosts to use DHCPv6; no prefixes or default > router info would be included in RAs in this scenario. Are the network operators who are expressing "the specific requirement" that their network not "depend on RA" willing to accept that they still need RA to signal nodes that DHCP is required for obtaining prefix information and default router addresses? Or, do they want RA deprecated completely? If they do, then I wouldn't like that. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 15:29:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH2px-0002TA-6G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:29:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH2pw-0005GI-Pl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:29:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH2nQ-000HM2-Gg for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:26:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH2nF-000HLR-H9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:26:43 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l73JOTSp083745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:24:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4A12DFA6-8BF5-4BDE-B97D-EDD1AF80D25A@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:26:30 +0200 To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On 3-aug-2007, at 20:52, james woodyatt wrote: >> James - You're right, RAs would not be made obsolete. RAs would >> still be used to tell hosts to use DHCPv6; no prefixes or default >> router info would be included in RAs in this scenario. > Are the network operators who are expressing "the specific > requirement" that their network not "depend on RA" willing to > accept that they still need RA to signal nodes that DHCP is > required for obtaining prefix information and default router > addresses? I would be interested in seeing some more details on their requirements/desires. (I was under the impression that a default router address is implied as the source of the RA. That is the case, but setting a router lifetime of 0 indicates that the source of the router advertisement shouldn't be treated as a defaul router.) > Or, do they want RA deprecated completely? If they do, then I > wouldn't like that. Regardless of whether anyone likes it, such a change isn't deployable within a reasonable timeframe anyway. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:21:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3eg-0004Bw-2F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:21:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3ee-000178-MY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:21:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3bO-000Pru-3e for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:18:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [87.94.96.112] (helo=isolokki.dnainternet.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3az-000Pp1-Ln for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:18:12 +0000 Received: from [62.78.111.123] (telomeres123.gprs.dnafinland.fi [62.78.111.123]) by isolokki.dnainternet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 216D5DABF; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:15:46 +0300 (EEST) From: "Jari Arkko" Reply-to: "Jari Arkko" Cc: Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com, alh-ietf@tndh.net, marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, rdroms@cisco.com Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:19:35 +0300 Message-ID: X-Mailer: EPOC Email Version 2.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: i-default Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 All, Again, we need to be careful with any of these proposals, and avoid jumping = to the conclusion that a protocol with a specific name will either solve = all these problems or cause them. We also care about interoperability and the ability to talk to each other; = if we didn't we wouldn't need to work on standards. So far in this thread I = have heard people avoiding DHCP completely or using solely DHCP. Its clear = that the two extremes would have a problem communicating... The = architectural principles of the Internet call for trying to find one = solution, even if it is not 100% perfect in all cases. Also, given that we have existing protocols for these things, and = implementations out there, its not clear that we want to find other ways of = doing the same... particularly when we have real, unsolveed problems left. = I'd rather spend cycles on those. This does not mean we never do alternates - we did publish RA-based DNS = discovcery, for instance. And DHC WG will take a serious look at the = customer requirements that Ralph mentioned. But it means we are going to = ask hard questions about things like interop with existing hosts. Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:22:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3f5-0004DU-QS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:22:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3f5-00017k-6F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:22:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3eK-00009C-MB for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:21:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3e9-00007n-GJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:21:23 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1293) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:21:14 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Ralph Droms'" Cc: "'Durand, Alain'" , "'Jari Arkko'" , , References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:20:42 -0700 Message-ID: <024201c7d60b$c47b0790$4d7116b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfVv7g/4RKDWvBsRYqhLzkPlKaAHgASnzlA Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8de5f93cb2b4e3bee75302e9eacc33db People that prefer to use DHCP should have the tools to do that (an RA should still inform hosts that DHCP is the mechanism this network uses). People that prefer to avoid the costs associated with that independent service should have the tools to do that through the RA. Hosts should accept configuration information from either. The IETF's job is to specify the tools, not the operational deployment model. Jari's misguided issue about multiple mechanisms only becomes valid when it is not possible to deploy an operational network without both (see the Chicago fiasco). There are financial reasons for each deployment model, and there is no real conflict between them. The IETF needs to stop trying to force the world to go a particular way and just make sure each deployment model is complete. That means adding the DHCP options Ralph is talking about, as well as the RA options that fill the gap on that side. Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: Ralph Droms [mailto:rdroms@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 4:17 AM > To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > Cc: 'Durand, Alain'; 'Jari Arkko'; marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; > v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings > outsi de US ?) > > The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network > operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do > not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new options > for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information to a host. > That information would allow a host to get all of its configuration > information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. > > Will the IETF elite allow the standardization of these new options to > support this different mode of configuration or will those network > operators who would prefer to use only DHCPv6 be forced to continue > to use RAs? > > - Ralph, who is astonished that the IPv6 community hasn't solved > multihoming, PI vs. PA addressing, core routing table scaling, > renumbering and ad hoc networking, but does have time to rehash, > yet again, the problem of Making the Internet Safe from DHCP > > On Aug 2, 2007, at Aug 2, 2007,5:57 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > > > I did not say that DHCP should be deprecated. There are real-world > > situations like the ones that took down the IETF DHCP service, that > > are > > clearly operational/implementation/deployment rather than protocol > > issues. > > Just because some organizations run DHCP does not mean everyone > > else MUST > > because the IETF elite refuse to allow an operationally different > > alternative to be standardized. > > > > Tony > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Durand, Alain [mailto:Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:26 PM > >> To: Jari Arkko; alh-ietf@tndh.net > >> Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > >> Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more > meetings > >> outsi de US ?) > >> > >> I agree. Cable networks have proven that DHCP can be scaled > >> to tens of million of leases... > >> > >> The fact that something went wrong at IETF is no proof > >> that the model is broken. > >> > >> - Alain. > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko > >>> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:53 PM > >>> To: alh-ietf@tndh.net > >>> Cc: marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > >>> Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more > >>> meetings outsi de US ?) > >>> > >>> I may be missing some context (I'm bandwidth challenged right > >>> now and unable to check archives). But its unclear to me > >>> where you jumped to the conclusion that DHCP problems in > >>> Chicago had something to do with a specific protocol and that > >>> this implies we need to deploy an alternate solution in IPv6. > >>> If anything, multiple solutions seem to increase the > >>> likelihood of interop and configuration problems. > >>> > >>> Jari > >>> > >>> > >>> From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:26:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3jD-0005m2-IS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:26:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3jD-0001FG-8V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:26:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3i9-0000Xp-4A for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:25:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.117.32.22] (helo=srv013.carpathiahost.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3hq-0000U5-9A for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:25:11 +0000 Received: from [66.117.52.128] (unknown [66.117.52.128]) by srv013.carpathiahost.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12DC93464 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46B38EF6.8000706@kl.net> Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:24:22 -0400 From: Kevin Loch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070127) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Ralph Droms wrote: > James - You're right, RAs would not be made obsolete. RAs would still > be used to tell hosts to use DHCPv6; no prefixes or default router info > would be included in RAs in this scenario. If you are going to go down this path, and I hope you do: Deprecate EUI-64 autoconfig for all purposes except link local, deprecate RA and tell people it's OK to use less than 18.5 quintillion addresses per subnet. Many of us are doing that today for segments with only routers/servers and we would like to do that wherever we please. I would hate to see someone hard code bit boundaries (/64), especially based on something that is of little or no practical use. - Kevin From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:28:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3l7-0007en-Er for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:28:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3l6-0001HP-81 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:28:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3k2-0000lB-5c for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:27:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3jn-0000jp-Ph for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:27:16 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1361) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:27:05 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Jari Arkko'" Cc: , , , References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:26:34 -0700 Message-ID: <024f01c7d60c$95c75a10$c1560e30$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfWC2PCxHOBiQ+7R+GRZaCOY1N7wwAAHMtA Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Jari Arkko wrote: > ... So far in > this thread I have heard people avoiding DHCP completely or using > solely DHCP. Its clear that the two extremes would have a problem > communicating... Absolute BS. There is no need for those to communicate. A host needs to be able to get configuration from either mechanism. > The architectural principles of the Internet call for > trying to find one solution, even if it is not 100% perfect in all > cases. No it doesn't. If anything it only requires that there be no more than one for any particular set of financial constraints. > Also, given that we have existing protocols for these things, and > implementations out there, its not clear that we want to find other > ways of doing the same... particularly when we have real, unsolveed > problems left. I'd rather spend cycles on those. > > This does not mean we never do alternates - we did publish RA-based DNS > discovcery, for instance. More BS. This is not on the standards track, so it will not get real implementations that matter. > And DHC WG will take a serious look at the > customer requirements that Ralph mentioned. But it means we are going > to ask hard questions about things like interop with existing hosts. There is no hope for the existing environment because it requires an incomplete set of both mechanisms to be deployed. That does not fit the financial models that drive people toward their favored approach. It is not the IETF's job to dictate a deployment model. The IETF needs to define the tools to make either approach complete and deployable without reliance on the other. Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:38:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3um-0002Za-Qh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:38:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH3um-0001cm-GY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:38:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3t8-0001gY-Vk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:36:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH3sy-0001ey-9A for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:36:41 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1409) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:36:34 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:36:02 -0700 Message-ID: <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfWAEWisBGo7O8NThut7c2h2vei8wADHFTw Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 james woodyatt wrote: > ... > Are the network operators who are expressing "the specific > requirement" that their network not "depend on RA" willing to accept > that they still need RA to signal nodes that DHCP is required for > obtaining prefix information and default router addresses? > > Or, do they want RA deprecated completely? If they do, then I > wouldn't like that. To shorten a long debate, the deployment models for not using RA are fundamentally broken to start with. They are based on the concept that an RA would result in a shared prefix between customers, because they are not taking the step to do L2 isolation between the aggregation point and the customer base. On top of that the security model is wrapped up in using DHCP as their trust anchor (never mind that spoofing a mac blows this away). It is perfectly fine for the DHC wg to provide the tools for these operators to deploy the way they want to. It is not reasonable for those operators to drive their broken deployment model on the rest of the world by insisting that DHCP is 'the only tool'. For them the RA should indicate 'use DHCP', while for the rest of the world the RA should indicate the DNS server so that DHCP is not required. Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:47:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH433-0002qQ-SY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:47:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH433-0001yr-7y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:47:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH41m-0002bj-Cb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:45:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH41b-0002aA-CB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:45:36 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 16:45:30 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CADMws0ZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,218,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="67051034:sNHT29372200" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73KjU2D001696; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:45:30 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73KjStn022736; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:45:28 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:45:28 -0400 Received: from [161.44.65.201] ([161.44.65.201]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:45:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:46:02 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 20:45:27.0909 (UTC) FILETIME=[39648150:01C7D60F] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1958; t=1186173930; x=1187037930; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20vs.=20RA...=20again. |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=f+ZkXPSt/U6eVrfWHpAXjZVep8HDtanV/pamAD1epUo=; b=S4S/L/xl3v03mZyb3Cb3Cxwc7XkcClIZKTvAgVM6j76C1Y8BEmCo9mSxDQJ0uGFvLLojEYoJ /dZwSSIHxs26rI3BtIKPs+OvoREgnt/afGEZWpHZlAzg4kf+LFrXqeUg; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Tony - the network operators I was referring to are interested in DHCP-only operation because, in their deployment experience, RAs have proven problematic. I understand the model you are referring to, but that model comes from a different set of network operators. We can certainly argue about whether RAs are fundamentally more problematic than DHCP and whether what we need to do is fix ND or extend DHCP; what I am reporting is what these operators have told me based on hands-on experience with deployed networks. - Ralph On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,4:36 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > james woodyatt wrote: >> ... >> Are the network operators who are expressing "the specific >> requirement" that their network not "depend on RA" willing to accept >> that they still need RA to signal nodes that DHCP is required for >> obtaining prefix information and default router addresses? >> >> Or, do they want RA deprecated completely? If they do, then I >> wouldn't like that. > > > To shorten a long debate, the deployment models for not using RA are > fundamentally broken to start with. They are based on the concept > that an RA > would result in a shared prefix between customers, because they are > not > taking the step to do L2 isolation between the aggregation point > and the > customer base. On top of that the security model is wrapped up in > using DHCP > as their trust anchor (never mind that spoofing a mac blows this > away). > > It is perfectly fine for the DHC wg to provide the tools for these > operators > to deploy the way they want to. It is not reasonable for those > operators to > drive their broken deployment model on the rest of the world by > insisting > that DHCP is 'the only tool'. For them the RA should indicate 'use > DHCP', > while for the rest of the world the RA should indicate the DNS > server so > that DHCP is not required. > > Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 16:54:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4A7-0005RF-NE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4A7-00029F-EE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:54:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH48a-0003LN-NF for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:52:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [87.94.96.112] (helo=isolokki.dnainternet.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH48P-0003Jm-Sd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:52:39 +0000 Received: from [62.78.120.14] (guanine14.gprs.dnafinland.fi [62.78.120.14]) by isolokki.dnainternet.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E670CEA3E; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:50:22 +0300 (EEST) From: "Jari Arkko" Reply-to: "Jari Arkko" To: alh-ietf@tndh.net Cc: Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com, marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, rdroms@cisco.com Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:54:12 +0300 Message-ID: X-Mailer: EPOC Email Version 2.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: i-default Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Tony, > Absolute BS. There is no need for those to communicate. A host needs to = be able to get configuration from either mechanism.=20 A host needs to get the configuration from either one, yes. If the host can = see (e.g. from the RA) what it should do AND both ways are implemented, = then we are fine. I worry about cases where network implements just one way = and the host the other. Granted, there are ways to deal with these, = depending a little bit what one find acceptable - but I think it is a real = issue to worry about. If not, please explain. Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:00:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4GX-0000x1-FW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:00:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4GX-0002K7-2T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:00:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4F3-00041i-T2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:59:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Es-00040L-Gb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:59:20 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l73Kx0pu005604; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:59:00 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l73Kx0fB005601; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:59:00 +0300 Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:59:00 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: james woodyatt cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3848/Thu Aug 2 23:22:06 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, james woodyatt wrote: > On Aug 3, 2007, at 10:53, Ralph Droms wrote: >> James - You're right, RAs would not be made obsolete. RAs would still be >> used to tell hosts to use DHCPv6; no prefixes or default router info would >> be included in RAs in this scenario. > > Are the network operators who are expressing "the specific requirement" that > their network not "depend on RA" willing to accept that they still need RA to > signal nodes that DHCP is required for obtaining prefix information and > default router addresses? > > Or, do they want RA deprecated completely? If they do, then I wouldn't like > that. Uh, I hope you guys aren't serious. Probably all host-side DHCPv6 implementations always try to run DHCP regardless of RA bits. It DHCPv6 server doesn't exist.. so what, at worst, a rogue server could feed you bad information but that would already be possible with ND/RA forgeries. If it does, bingo. If the host implementation bothers to implement DHCPv6, vendors would be very hard pressed to argue why exactly they shouldn't try running DHCPv6 on every time the host connects to a new network if IPv6 is enabled. Note: I have no strong feelings on DHCP vs RA, but IMHO this is just pragmatics and reality. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:03:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4JP-0003tZ-OP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:03:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4JP-0002O3-FM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:03:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4IE-0004Np-Oc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:02:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4I4-0004MV-1k for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:02:37 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1503) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:02:29 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Ralph Droms'" Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:01:57 -0700 Message-ID: <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfWDzs82W4yK6xCTfyLNsNqokJrtQAAWZUA Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Ralph Droms wrote: > ... > We can certainly argue about whether RAs are fundamentally more > problematic than DHCP and whether what we need to do is fix ND or > extend DHCP; what I am reporting is what these operators have told me > based on hands-on experience with deployed networks. Other deployed networks have hands-on experience showing RA is cheaper for them to operate, and the Chicago network was a showcase for the operational realities that people experience every day. I am arguing there are cases for both deployment models, so we should not be wasting energy debating between them, we just need to fix them both so we don't hang in this bizarre state where both are required because neither are sufficient as-is. If the IESG is going to insist that there has to be a one-size-fits-all answer, they all need to be shot during this nomcom round. Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:15:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4UI-0006h5-NV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:15:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4UI-0002aq-0N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:15:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Ss-0005ac-IQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:13:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Sh-0005ZI-F0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:13:36 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 17:13:33 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAMo3s0ZAZnme/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,218,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="127929434:sNHT31219652" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73LDUlJ013384; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:30 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73LDPsU019553; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:13:30 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:24 -0400 Received: from [161.44.65.201] ([161.44.65.201]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: <024f01c7d60c$95c75a10$c1560e30$@net> References: <024f01c7d60c$95c75a10$c1560e30$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <996A7A3B-2144-44CB-9C76-6A004C94A4FE@cisco.com> Cc: "'Jari Arkko'" , , , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:58 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 21:13:24.0473 (UTC) FILETIME=[20B3DE90:01C7D613] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3289; t=1186175610; x=1187039610; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20failures=20(was=20RE=3A=20Do=20you=20want=20to =20have=20more=20meetings=20outsi=20=20de=20US=20?) |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=PyN91DSTl98/ddBMsXGekaPf8kbgvUACSn2VsLGp7u0=; b=UzEzrfB9hsRHZYxA3m/Cx7jsOB9SL3WF65wWHp4VOB6enzsYVQBhfQziKd0w6oh5BB/Lq7tS RnJ60QHc/8CYR0xcSNk3rmNPXtXTdN/RrJvh1XBEAY2qg7/AilMrEyXu; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Tony - I think you are focusing on the traditional DHCPv4 model of a centralized DHCP service, managing IP address and other configuration information, on one or a few large servers. My model of the use of DHCPv6 for other configuration information is that the "servers" are, in fact, colocated with the ND machinery in network elements. As we have learned through our implementations of DHCPv6 at Cisco, building a DHCP server that responds to InformationRequest messages can be *very* simple to implement and to configure. Therefore, I disagree that there are "financial constraints" or configuration complexity constraints or, for that matter, any other operational constraints for or against one or the other deployment model. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, depending on the routers used in the IETF network, I believe the IPv6 service could very easily have used this standards-based deployment model for prefix, default router, address and other configuration information to provision systems using Vista "out of the box" in Chicago. I'm not so sure about various versions of *nix with a 3rd-party DHCPv6 client. OS X is a somewhat more interesting case, as I don't know of a DHCPv6 client for OS X as yet. Finally, I realize I'm rehashing arguments which have been made several times before. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think the arguments didn't need to be refreshed in various caches. - Ralph On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,4:26 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > Jari Arkko wrote: >> ... So far in >> this thread I have heard people avoiding DHCP completely or using >> solely DHCP. Its clear that the two extremes would have a problem >> communicating... > > Absolute BS. There is no need for those to communicate. A host > needs to be > able to get configuration from either mechanism. > >> The architectural principles of the Internet call for >> trying to find one solution, even if it is not 100% perfect in all >> cases. > > No it doesn't. If anything it only requires that there be no more > than one > for any particular set of financial constraints. > >> Also, given that we have existing protocols for these things, and >> implementations out there, its not clear that we want to find other >> ways of doing the same... particularly when we have real, unsolveed >> problems left. I'd rather spend cycles on those. >> >> This does not mean we never do alternates - we did publish RA- >> based DNS >> discovcery, for instance. > > More BS. This is not on the standards track, so it will not get real > implementations that matter. > >> And DHC WG will take a serious look at the >> customer requirements that Ralph mentioned. But it means we are going >> to ask hard questions about things like interop with existing hosts. > > There is no hope for the existing environment because it requires an > incomplete set of both mechanisms to be deployed. That does not fit > the > financial models that drive people toward their favored approach. > It is not > the IETF's job to dictate a deployment model. The IETF needs to > define the > tools to make either approach complete and deployable without > reliance on > the other. > > Tony > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:15:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4UR-0006hX-7v for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:15:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4UP-0002b1-Q3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:15:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Sg-0005ZB-7u for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:13:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4SV-0005YG-04 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:13:24 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 17:13:12 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAMo3s0ZAZnmf/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,218,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="127929405:sNHT48345522" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73LDAJT029459; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:10 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73LDAtn002245; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:13:10 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:10 -0400 Received: from [161.44.65.201] ([161.44.65.201]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:09 -0400 In-Reply-To: <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <63320742-8C5B-4C5A-B083-2E123CBA9CA0@cisco.com> Cc: "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 17:13:43 -0400 To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 21:13:09.0645 (UTC) FILETIME=[17DD4BD0:01C7D613] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1404; t=1186175590; x=1187039590; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20vs.=20RA...=20again. |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=ermaNTK43fEpHZiCab86h4o0jD392M+DA7fQLKOHhAU=; b=empJ1WYMgIXrqfGZTwvUUjIsNKSlG4SNSWLeZlHVLdvLpBzSAibG78v5Wxu2QwdqK6aFD1kR Q+g7AimF6YAXCdHYmXiDEQuP0WJPfb801Mon21Y97pi8worCCedq7KxM; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Tony - in my opinion, "both are required" is not necessarily a bizarre state. Each performs a specific task. Unless the Chicago network deployed DHCPv6 and found it problematic, I have to say that the Chicago network was in any way instructive to the specific debate about IPv6. Lessons learned from misconfigured DHCPv4/DNS services have no bearing on this discussion. - Ralph On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,5:01 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > Ralph Droms wrote: >> ... >> We can certainly argue about whether RAs are fundamentally more >> problematic than DHCP and whether what we need to do is fix ND or >> extend DHCP; what I am reporting is what these operators have told me >> based on hands-on experience with deployed networks. > > Other deployed networks have hands-on experience showing RA is > cheaper for > them to operate, and the Chicago network was a showcase for the > operational > realities that people experience every day. I am arguing there are > cases for > both deployment models, so we should not be wasting energy debating > between > them, we just need to fix them both so we don't hang in this > bizarre state > where both are required because neither are sufficient as-is. > > If the IESG is going to insist that there has to be a one-size-fits- > all > answer, they all need to be shot during this nomcom round. > > Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:18:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4XZ-0000Xv-V0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:18:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4XY-0002fa-OE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:18:33 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Wl-00064U-Rm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:17:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.15.163.216] (helo=tndh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4Wb-00062s-1H for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:17:38 +0000 Received: from eagle (192.168.123.10:1573) by tndh.net with [XMail 1.17 (Win32/Ix86) ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:17:30 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Tony Hain" To: "'Jari Arkko'" Cc: , , , References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:16:59 -0700 Message-ID: <025501c7d613$a0c69500$e253bf00$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AcfWEDdcUXWjBQ+IQDuafEQaGbTqzgAAW21A Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Jari Arkko wrote: > Tony, > > > Absolute BS. There is no need for those to communicate. A host needs > to be able to get configuration from either mechanism. > > A host needs to get the configuration from either one, yes. If the host > can see (e.g. from the RA) what it should do AND both ways are > implemented, then we are fine. I worry about cases where network > implements just one way and the host the other. Granted, there are ways > to deal with these, depending a little bit what one find acceptable - > but I think it is a real issue to worry about. If not, please explain. It is very unlikely that a device would only implement DHCP, so the only case to worry about is a device that does not implement DHCP (being a slightly more complex message exchange), while the network operator insists that their network only supports that. I am not particularly concerned about that case. The reason a manufacturer would choose to not implement DHCP would be that it is a simple node (light switch or the like), and the most likely case is that the network operator that insists on DHCP would not want to allow these trivial devices anyway because they will not have the UI to deal with the rest of the DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor scenarios. Multi-purpose OSs will easily do both, and are most likely to need the ability to switch as they move between operational environments. Get over it and define both mechanisms. Let the operational community decide what they will and will not support in their deployments. If the device manufacturers want to deploy into networks that use DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor, they will have to implement DHCP. If that is not worth their time, the network needs to support a full set of services via the RA approach that is more likely in networks without an elite network management staff that likes to get paid well for their arcane knowledge of a more complex environment. I am not saying DHCP is wrong, just that forcing a one-size-fits-all answer is wrong. Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:37:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4pV-0003We-Bf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:37:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4pU-0002za-Vx for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:37:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4me-0007q5-8d for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:34:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4mT-0007oe-E1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:34:02 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [192.42.227.216]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l73LXoJa018316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:33:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l73LXnp9018375; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l73LXlTg018244; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:33:47 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:33:33 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED999@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: DHCP vs. RA... again. Thread-Index: AcfWEv9n4xjvLbsHQEmW2D/mObeMlAAAgy6g References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com><1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Pekka Savola" , "james woodyatt" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 21:33:47.0254 (UTC) FILETIME=[F9897160:01C7D615] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f > Uh, I hope you guys aren't serious. Probably all host-side DHCPv6=20 > implementations always try to run DHCP regardless of RA bits. It=20 > DHCPv6 server doesn't exist.. so what, at worst, a rogue server could=20 > feed you bad information but that would already be possible with ND/RA > forgeries. If it does, bingo. I wonder how much of this comes down to common sense in some circumstances, e.g., if a node that is inclined to do DHCPv6 comes up on a link over which no RAs are heard, why would it want to do an RS/RA exchange only to be told "go use DHCPv6"? Wouldn't it make more sense for the node to just send the DHCPv6 Solicit w/o incurring the extra round-trip? Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 17:43:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4vL-000110-5C for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:43:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH4vK-00039n-GO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:43:07 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4uC-0008bf-83 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:41:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH4u0-0008ac-J5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:41:50 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l73LdYc5085922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:39:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: , "'james woodyatt'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:41:37 +0200 To: Ralph Droms X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e On 3-aug-2007, at 22:46, Ralph Droms wrote: > the network operators I was referring to are interested in DHCP- > only operation because, in their deployment experience, RAs have > proven problematic. Can you go into detail here, please? If stateless autoconfig doesn't work the way it should, we should fix that if we can. It's also possible that their deployment causes the problem, and the problem may extend to DHCP too. On 3-aug-2007, at 22:20, Tony Hain wrote: > The IETF needs to stop trying to > force the world to go a particular way and just make sure each > deployment > model is complete. Note that today, all IPv6 implementations (that I know of) support stateless autoconfiguration. It seems exceedingly unlikely that any vendor is going to remove that capability anytime soon, even if, for some strange reason, they decide that stateless autoconfig is never a good idea, because it won't be possible to assume the presence of DHCPv6 for many years to come. On 3-aug-2007, at 22:19, Jari Arkko wrote: > We also care about interoperability and the ability to talk to each > other; if we didn't we wouldn't need to work on standards. So far > in this thread I have heard people avoiding DHCP completely or > using solely DHCP. Its clear that the two extremes would have a > problem communicating... The architectural principles of the > Internet call for trying to find one solution, even if it is not > 100% perfect in all cases. To me, being able to ignore DHCPv6 and use RAs only would be a feature. For other people, the opposite seems to be true. So as long as I get to use RAs and they get to use DHCP, we're all happy. Now obviously these days we tend to take our computers to "foreign" networks where the other configuration mechanism may be in place. Figuring out how to handle that would be an essential ingredient in any document that comes out of this effort. I would also like to add that DHCPv6 is basically two different protocols that look alike: a stateful one and a stateless one. The problem here is that choosing the right variant is up to the client, which doesn't know whether the server will be offering stateful or statless information. I would like to see a situation where the stateless variant goes away and either the client uses full, stateful DHCPv6 or it doesn't do DHCPv6 at all and learns all information that it needs from RAs. On 3-aug-2007, at 22:59, Pekka Savola wrote: > If the host implementation bothers to implement DHCPv6, vendors > would be very hard pressed to argue why exactly they shouldn't try > running DHCPv6 on every time the host connects to a new network if > IPv6 is enabled. That would be extremely suboptimal, because it leads to retransmitting requests. These are multicasts, so they take up _a_ _lot_ of bandwidth on wifi networks. Where did we land on the whole M/O bit issue again? On 3-aug-2007, at 23:13, Ralph Droms wrote: > Tony - in my opinion, "both are required" is not necessarily a > bizarre state. Each performs a specific task. I'm with Tony on this one (well, maybe not about the shooting). I haven't written a DHCP implementation, so I'll refrain from commenting on how complex those are, but rather observe that DHCP tends to use more packets than RA and both together certainly use more packets, many of them multicasts, which, again, are BAD on wireless networks: they're almost always sent at the lowest possible speed and as such, take up much, much more than their share of the available bandwidth. > Unless the Chicago network deployed DHCPv6 and found it > problematic, I have to say that the Chicago network was in any way > instructive to the specific debate about IPv6. > Lessons learned from misconfigured DHCPv4/DNS services have no > bearing on this discussion. It shows that the DHCP architecture is vulnerable to single points of failure. Many things in life are, and this is often unavoidable, but telling people they MUST run such a protocol for uses that can just as easily be served by protocols that don't suffer from such architectural limitations isn't a good thing. On 3-aug-2007, at 23:16, Tony Hain wrote: > Get over it and define both mechanisms. Let the operational > community decide > what they will and will not support in their deployments. [...] > I am not saying DHCP is wrong, just that forcing a one-size-fits- > all answer > is wrong. Agree 100%. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 18:08:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH5Ju-00085o-Qr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:08:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH5Ju-0003Z2-Gh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:08:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH5HG-000Au7-K2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:05:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH5H5-000AtE-SL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:05:41 +0000 Received: from relay6.apple.com (relay6.apple.com [17.128.113.36]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590F2D86507 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay6.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 43252100A4 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807124-a77bcbb0000007f3-e2-46b3a6aff9fe Received: from [17.151.93.26] (unknown [17.151.93.26]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 2298210093 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <996A7A3B-2144-44CB-9C76-6A004C94A4FE@cisco.com> References: <024f01c7d60c$95c75a10$c1560e30$@net> <996A7A3B-2144-44CB-9C76-6A004C94A4FE@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: DHCPv6 and Mac OS X Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:05:31 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Aug 3, 2007, at 14:13, Ralph Droms wrote: > > OS X is a somewhat more interesting case, as I don't know of a > DHCPv6 client for OS X as yet. There isn't one, and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it in Mac OS X 10.5 if I were you. Careful examination of Apple's developer pages and technical specifications will show no mention of DHCPv6 showing up in Mac OS X any time soon. I can't say when, or even *whether*, Apple products will contain DHCPv6 clients. Certainly, none of Apple's products in the market today are DHCPv6-enabled, so networks that require DHCPv6 will not admit any of them. That includes iPhone, AppleTV and AirPort, all of which support IPv6 at least to some extent. (Okay, I haven't poked at my new iPhone enough to know what they did with IPv6 there. They *might* have turned it off. I don't know.) -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 03 19:14:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH6LI-0005S1-8x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:14:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IH6LH-0004W7-0U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:14:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH6HU-000GKv-Hp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:10:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IH6HJ-000GJC-Ls for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:09:59 +0000 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2007 19:09:53 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAPJRs0ZAZnmf/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,218,1183348800"; d="scan'208"; a="67060602:sNHT68224192" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l73N9qUF000682 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:09:52 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l73N9qtp006311 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2007 23:09:52 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:09:52 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([10.86.240.254]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:09:52 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <63320742-8C5B-4C5A-B083-2E123CBA9CA0@cisco.com> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> <63320742-8C5B-4C5A-B083-2E123CBA9CA0@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 19:10:27 -0400 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2007 23:09:52.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[65EA1EB0:01C7D623] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1639; t=1186182592; x=1187046592; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20vs.=20RA...=20again. |Sender:=20 |To:=20IPv6=20Operations=20; bh=9SneNzP+7x2uk2QKv/Me0BqlJfYSxyEhtA/HN95dH9w=; b=vLgR8pJUz79doPB9QNqnXlalFMrkQBtz77MQ2l4IfJfEhqTMUahNwMvPlErmInVfBHHAa9jY g8YfvY8gNL3XBnhG9TZd1pt+cYC3VienJl7J2xNHESdMm6/OAwGjG5VW; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,5:13 PM, Ralph Droms wrote: > Tony - in my opinion, "both are required" is not necessarily a > bizarre state. Each performs a specific task. Unless the Chicago > network deployed DHCPv6 and found it problematic, I have to say > that the Chicago network was not ^^^^^ > in any way instructive to the specific debate about IPv6. Lessons > learned from misconfigured DHCPv4/DNS services have no bearing on > this discussion. > > - Ralph > > On Aug 3, 2007, at Aug 3, 2007,5:01 PM, Tony Hain wrote: > >> Ralph Droms wrote: >>> ... >>> We can certainly argue about whether RAs are fundamentally more >>> problematic than DHCP and whether what we need to do is fix ND or >>> extend DHCP; what I am reporting is what these operators have >>> told me >>> based on hands-on experience with deployed networks. >> >> Other deployed networks have hands-on experience showing RA is >> cheaper for >> them to operate, and the Chicago network was a showcase for the >> operational >> realities that people experience every day. I am arguing there are >> cases for >> both deployment models, so we should not be wasting energy >> debating between >> them, we just need to fix them both so we don't hang in this >> bizarre state >> where both are required because neither are sufficient as-is. >> >> If the IESG is going to insist that there has to be a one-size- >> fits-all >> answer, they all need to be shot during this nomcom round. >> >> Tony From bassunx@froggymedia.com Sat Aug 04 00:21:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHB8f-0003CC-3t; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:21:17 -0400 Received: from [221.126.251.146] (helo=froggymedia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHB8d-0000py-H1; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:21:17 -0400 Message-ID: <022001c7d665$2ac6efb0$a92c9133@bassunx> Reply-To: "grisel matthews" From: "grisel matthews" To: "shirley romero" Cc: "maisha brown" , "deandre" , "edythe jacobs" , "ronnie carpenter" , "leesa burns" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "gregorio robertson" Subject: Make fab not fat Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:00:40 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Save big time on your medication. 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We have more than 2,000 medication For more Information, Try this Link: www.medstadium.org True, we have the powerfully awkwardly bicycle, the motor-car, the bottle dirigible feel airship and other marvellous means of breaki Mrs Partridge call was then examined, who, after a modest hat apology for danger being obliged see to speak the truth ag daily Western, who shame had been within hearing during the greater part of sponge the noisily preceding dialogue, had now exha Here dare hasten the humble little creatures, running indefatigably to held and disgust fro. slide When the sun shines upon On grubby the second day of her hunting, as she was returning hum punish inquisitive from the chase, and was arrived within a litt From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 04 00:22:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHB9d-00052p-6O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:22:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHB9b-0000qp-RG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 00:22:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHB48-000HFG-9O for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:16:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHB3w-000HEC-NH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:16:30 +0000 Received: from ncg-dhcp123.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (s213147.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.213.147]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AEE73020; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:16:23 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:16:20 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Ralph Droms Cc: , "'Durand, Alain'" , "'Jari Arkko'" , , Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) In-Reply-To: <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca At Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:50 -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network > operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do > not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new options > for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information to a host. > That information would allow a host to get all of its configuration > information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. > > Will the IETF elite allow the standardization of these new options to > support this different mode of configuration or will those network > operators who would prefer to use only DHCPv6 be forced to continue > to use RAs? (I'm not trying to make a specific opinion about the RA-only vs DHCPv6-only argument) It would help if you could provide more details about the requirement: who are exactly the operators wanting DHCPv6-only operation, why they want to do it, what's their (technical) problem in using RA to get configuration information that is currently provided only by RA, etc. I doubt one can convince others to introduce something new that can already be done by an existing feature simply because there is someone who wants it; the important point is that why they need it and whether it's technically reasonable. BTW, I see one reason that we might need to provide on-link prefixes via DHCPv6 even though RA already has this functionality: if we operate a closed, single-link network which contains a DHCPv6 server, a local DNS server, and any other servers that provide services in the network, but no router, then the nodes have to communicate using either link-local addresses or global addresses assigned via DHCPv6. And if the nodes want to avoid link-local addresses due to its scope-related difficulties, they need to detect other global addresses are on-link. However, since DHCPv6 does not provide that information and the "on-link by default" rule is going to be deprecated in 2461bis, there is going to be no standard way for such nodes to get the prefix information. Note that this problem didn't exist when the DHCPv6 protocol was designed thanks to the "on-link by default" rule as a last resort; but now that the assumption does not hold, I think the DHCPv6 design principle can also be revisited. On the other hand, I personally don't see the case where we need to provide the default router address(es) via DHCPv6. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 04 07:34:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHHuB-0007uK-6c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:34:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHHu9-0007wN-Nc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 07:34:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHHo7-000AAr-Hc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:28:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHHnw-000AAH-Ea for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:28:25 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2007 04:28:19 -0700 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8CAJ7/s0arR7PE/2dsb2JhbAA X-IronPort-AV: i="4.19,220,1183359600"; d="scan'208"; a="7819859:sNHT16933836" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l74BSJKH020161 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 04:28:19 -0700 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l74BSIHH013550 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 11:28:19 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:28:18 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.105] ([10.86.243.5]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:28:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4B992A43-213A-4365-ACC2-BFEC8C7BEB71@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:28:52 -0400 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2007 11:28:18.0278 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E316060:01C7D68A] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3508; t=1186226899; x=1187090899; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20DHCP=20failures=20(was=20RE=3A=20Do=20you=20want=20to =20have=20more=20meetings=20outsi=20de=20US=20?) |Sender:=20; bh=dFv4DyIDGzzG87M23LYUO/PcgUqK+tH5wzXOORQdWxY=; b=RQs8PfMzxbJiJL4ptiuc83vSzNsy4vTs9tC+jtbizYU9xpLIhKSor0A7PWZQacrYHqnks1o6 g0SY+QPGvF3EgOP2G2ZW+5tWieqa2mP/EwQrrvH9Hk7XQQtLHd/vvUjv; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d0bdc596f8dd1c226c458f0b4df27a88 An Internet Draft describing the requirements for "DHCPv6-only" =20 operation is in preparation. The topic was discussed in the dhc and =20 v6ops meetings in Chicago: http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/=20 slides/v6ops-6.ppt Further discussion will take place in v6ops once =20 the I-D is finished. I brought up the topic now as a counterpoint to =20= the argument "operators want DNS serves in RAs, therefore the IETF =20 should standardize such a specification". Your point about providing information about on-link prefixes in =20 DHCPv6 because of the change to the "on-link assumption" is well-=20 taken and was raised by Dave Thaler in the dhc wg meeting. - Ralph On Aug 4, 2007, at Aug 4, 2007,12:16 AM, JINMEI Tatuya / =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E= =E9=81=94=E5=93=89 =20 wrote: > At Fri, 3 Aug 2007 07:16:50 -0400, > Ralph Droms wrote: > >> The dhc WG has received a request to develop, on behalf of network >> operators who have expressed the specific requirement that they do >> not want the operation of their network to depend on RAs, new options >> for DHCPv6 to pass prefix and default router information to a host. >> That information would allow a host to get all of its configuration >> information from DHCPv6, obviating the use of RAs. >> >> Will the IETF elite allow the standardization of these new options to >> support this different mode of configuration or will those network >> operators who would prefer to use only DHCPv6 be forced to continue >> to use RAs? > > (I'm not trying to make a specific opinion about the RA-only vs > DHCPv6-only argument) > > It would help if you could provide more details about the requirement: > who are exactly the operators wanting DHCPv6-only operation, why they > want to do it, what's their (technical) problem in using RA to get > configuration information that is currently provided only by RA, etc. > > I doubt one can convince others to introduce something new that can > already be done by an existing feature simply because there is someone > who wants it; the important point is that why they need it and whether > it's technically reasonable. > > BTW, I see one reason that we might need to provide on-link prefixes > via DHCPv6 even though RA already has this functionality: if we > operate a closed, single-link network which contains a DHCPv6 server, > a local DNS server, and any other servers that provide services in the > network, but no router, then the nodes have to communicate using > either link-local addresses or global addresses assigned via DHCPv6. > And if the nodes want to avoid link-local addresses due to its > scope-related difficulties, they need to detect other global addresses > are on-link. However, since DHCPv6 does not provide that information > and the "on-link by default" rule is going to be deprecated in > 2461bis, there is going to be no standard way for such nodes to get > the prefix information. Note that this problem didn't exist when the > DHCPv6 protocol was designed thanks to the "on-link by default" rule > as a last resort; but now that the assumption does not hold, I think > the DHCPv6 design principle can also be revisited. > > On the other hand, I personally don't see the case where we need to > provide the default router address(es) via DHCPv6. > > JINMEI, Tatuya > Communication Platform Lab. > Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba = Corp. > jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 04 13:46:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNhh-0003Om-8q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:46:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNhg-0005j2-28 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:46:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHNcX-0001d0-OV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:40:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.234.218.130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHNcL-0001cG-NU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:40:52 +0000 Received: from p130.piuha.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829BB1986A6; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 20:40:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8201985FB; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 20:40:42 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <46B4BA1A.8000307@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:40:42 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alh-ietf@tndh.net CC: Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com, marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, rdroms@cisco.com Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) References: <025501c7d613$a0c69500$e253bf00$@net> In-Reply-To: <025501c7d613$a0c69500$e253bf00$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Tony, > It is very unlikely that a device would only implement DHCP Hmm. So by "only implement DHCP" I presume that you mean DHCPv6 + standard RA implementation, right? Reading on... > so the only > case to worry about is a device that does not implement DHCP (being a > slightly more complex message exchange), while the network operator insists > that their network only supports that. > I think we need a better understanding of what the options are to analyze this fully. From what I can gather, we have talked about 1. Standard RA only, no DHCP at all (at least on v6 side; but in dual stack nodes the IPv4 side may provide, for instance, DNS information). 2. Standard RA + DHCP (a couple of variants exist). 3. Standard RA + options for DNS discovery a la draft-jeong. 4. Standard RA but no prefixes + DHCP + extensions for prefix information. 5. DHCP + extensions for prefix information and default routers. My understanding is that current hosts/networks and majority of implementations fall in categories 1 and 2. It would be very, very desirable that a new solution tolerates such nodes on the other side. For instance, a host that only does 1 arrives in a network that supports solution 3, 4 or 5, what happens? If the network only supports 4 or 5, we have a problem. Similarly, if a host that only does 2 arrives at the network that only supports 3 we have a problem. But to get back to your first statement "It is very unlikely that a device would only implement DHCP", what did you actually mean? Case 2 is less likely than case 1. But from what you wrote afterwards it seemed like you really meant that case 3 is much more likely to appear in real-life than case 2. If so, I don't agree... > I am not particularly concerned about that case. The reason a manufacturer > would choose to not implement DHCP would be that it is a simple node (light > switch or the like), and the most likely case is that the network operator > that insists on DHCP would not want to allow these trivial devices anyway > because they will not have the UI to deal with the rest of the > DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor scenarios. Multi-purpose OSs will easily do both, and > are most likely to need the ability to switch as they move between > operational environments. > Mumble. I agree about the multi-purpose OSs, on the long term. But we also need to support the current ones. > Get over it and define both mechanisms. Let the operational community decide > what they will and will not support in their deployments. If the device > manufacturers want to deploy into networks that use DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor, > they will have to implement DHCP. If that is not worth their time, the > network needs to support a full set of services via the RA approach that is > more likely in networks without an elite network management staff that likes > to get paid well for their arcane knowledge of a more complex environment. > > I am not saying DHCP is wrong, just that forcing a one-size-fits-all answer > is wrong. > As I said in my e-mail, having multiple solutions is not out of the question -- but working out what this means for interoperability is a requirement. And as always, the case for needing a new way to implement something has to be made in terms of tangible benefits. Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 04 13:46:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNho-0003Rn-E2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:46:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNhn-0005j9-7Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:46:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHNcy-0001fN-Jh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:41:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.234.218.130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHNcn-0001eo-JR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 17:41:19 +0000 Received: from p130.piuha.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92401986A6; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 20:41:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6472F1985FB; Sat, 4 Aug 2007 20:41:12 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <46B4BA38.4020102@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:41:12 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alh-ietf@tndh.net CC: 'Ralph Droms' , 'james woodyatt' , 'IPv6 Operations' Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> In-Reply-To: <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Tony, > Other deployed networks have hands-on experience showing RA is cheaper for > them to operate, and the Chicago network was a showcase for the operational > realities that people experience every day. I am arguing there are cases for > both deployment models, so we should not be wasting energy debating between > them, we just need to fix them both so we don't hang in this bizarre state > where both are required because neither are sufficient as-is. > > If the IESG is going to insist that there has to be a one-size-fits-all > answer, they all need to be shot during this nomcom round. > If you meant me, I'm already wearing my bullet proof vest :-) But seriously, I don't like words being put into my mouth. I said we (the IETF) need to ask hard questions about things like interoperability, and the case for actual need. But I also said that we sometimes do have multiple solutions - e.g., when there's clear need, community consensus that they are needed, etc. One look at the IETF's WGs should convince you that we tolerate quite a bit of multiplicity. And I also believe the IESG's job is not to prevent the well-informed consensus of the community from going forward unless there's a clear technical problem. Having said that, the desire for one solution is indeed one of our architectural principles (RFC 1958). But both that RFC, at least this AD, and I believe IETF folks in general prefer applying common sense over rigid rules. That is, not something to use to reject improvements or prevent real needs from being filled. Of course, this means that a good case has to be made. Jari From fredjacoronot@as9105.com Sat Aug 04 13:56:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNs3-0004lH-Fj; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:56:59 -0400 Received: from 79-72-95-119.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com ([79.72.95.119] helo=as9105.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHNs1-0005ra-2k; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:56:59 -0400 Message-ID: <527b01c7d6f8$31e5b680$c8f8ea8e@fredjacoronot> Reply-To: "marnie lynch" From: "marnie lynch" To: "erich" Cc: "numbers dean" , "ali ward" , "donella ortiz" , "bev brown" , "ema willis" , "chana franklin" Subject: Did he ask you last night Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:33:08 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Save up big discount on your medical instruction. We have cheap prices, high-speed delivery and the exclusive trade names and general drugs With our business you don't require a medical prescription! We have over 2000 medical instruction Pay us a visit at: www.tecmeds.org "The peace apothecary staid no slit longer in the room shame than while he acquainted us upheld with his news; and then, wit Sophia and her cousin both did tick all in their power teaching to extinguish hearing these flames which had thundering roared so lou Here frozen Blifil physical sighed bitterly; upon which Western, whose eyes were full of tears at sister recklessly the praise of Soph To yell describe every particular, and to relate the whole rail conversation rhythm of the distance ensuing scene, is not with The simplicity of Partridge set Jones between circle a laughing, and put a final end to his pencil blind anger, which had indeed From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 04 19:01:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHSd6-0004Pk-Ie for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:01:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHSd5-0005K6-4H for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 19:01:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHSYS-000PEm-Jq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:57:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [129.242.5.252] (helo=mux2.uit.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHSYG-000PDB-LI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:56:58 +0000 Received: from shimmer.student.uit.no (shimmer.student.uit.no [129.242.80.34]) by mux2.uit.no (8.13.8/8.13.6/Mux) with ESMTP id l74MuYd0019072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:56:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from chandra.student.uit.no (chandra.student.uit.no [129.242.80.32]) by shimmer.student.uit.no (8.13.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l74MuW5a009577; Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:56:33 +0200 Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 00:56:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Roger Jorgensen X-X-Sender: rogerj@chandra.student.uit.no To: Jari Arkko cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, roger@jorgensen.no Subject: Re: DHCP failures (was RE: Do you want to have more meetings outsi de US ?) In-Reply-To: <46B4BA1A.8000307@piuha.net> Message-ID: References: <025501c7d613$a0c69500$e253bf00$@net> <46B4BA1A.8000307@piuha.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: : ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.62 on 129.242.5.252 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Hi, think it's my first list and I dont bother to comment on everything, just voice my view on this. I find this entire thread quite amusing in a way. It is so obvious for me that IPv6 need some sort of way to distribute other information than what RA does today. How it is dont don't really mather. DHCPv6 is one way, another probably smoother is to include an option in the RA packet to fetch more information from another source. Probably todo both are the best path forward. However whatever is done the first thing to decide is what has the highest priority. RA or DHCPv6 information, what happen if there are more than one RA or one DHCPv6 server on the network? I guess the current DHCP and RA handle the multiply option so whats left are to decide which one of them a client should give the highest priority. An easy way out are maybe to make it mandatory for everything to have RA for working, that means DHCPv6 has to provide RA information, and maybe RA also should have a flag that tell the client to listen to DHCP information instead... then everyone have their tool and everything will just work :) ... I guess you should also be able to on the client side to as a option somewhere well hidden to choice what you prefer, RA or DHCPv6... But what bother me a bit is that RA are a deep down hidden thing in the Network stack, it just exist. Bbut DHCP is a client<>server thing, some layers further up in the network stack... On Sat, 4 Aug 2007, Jari Arkko wrote: > Tony, > >> It is very unlikely that a device would only implement DHCP > > Hmm. So by "only implement DHCP" I presume that you mean > DHCPv6 + standard RA implementation, right? Reading on... > >> so the only >> case to worry about is a device that does not implement DHCP (being a >> slightly more complex message exchange), while the network operator insists >> that their network only supports that. >> > I think we need a better understanding of what the options > are to analyze this fully. From what I can gather, we have > talked about > > 1. Standard RA only, no DHCP at all (at least on v6 side; but in dual > stack nodes the IPv4 side may provide, for instance, DNS information). > > 2. Standard RA + DHCP (a couple of variants exist). > > 3. Standard RA + options for DNS discovery a la draft-jeong. > > 4. Standard RA but no prefixes + DHCP + extensions for prefix information. > > 5. DHCP + extensions for prefix information and default routers. > > My understanding is that current hosts/networks and majority of > implementations > fall in categories 1 and 2. It would be very, very desirable that a new > solution tolerates such nodes on the other side. For instance, a host > that only does 1 arrives in a network that supports solution 3, 4 or 5, > what happens? If the network only supports 4 or 5, we have a problem. > Similarly, if a host that only does 2 arrives at the network that only > supports 3 we have a problem. > > But to get back to your first statement "It is very unlikely that a device > would only implement DHCP", what did you actually mean? Case 2 > is less likely than case 1. But from what you wrote afterwards it > seemed like you really meant that case 3 is much more likely to > appear in real-life than case 2. If so, I don't agree... > >> I am not particularly concerned about that case. The reason a manufacturer >> would choose to not implement DHCP would be that it is a simple node (light >> switch or the like), and the most likely case is that the network operator >> that insists on DHCP would not want to allow these trivial devices anyway >> because they will not have the UI to deal with the rest of the >> DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor scenarios. Multi-purpose OSs will easily do both, and >> are most likely to need the ability to switch as they move between >> operational environments. >> > > Mumble. I agree about the multi-purpose OSs, on the long term. But we > also need to support the current ones. > > >> Get over it and define both mechanisms. Let the operational community decide >> what they will and will not support in their deployments. If the device >> manufacturers want to deploy into networks that use DHCP-as-a-trust-anchor, >> they will have to implement DHCP. If that is not worth their time, the >> network needs to support a full set of services via the RA approach that is >> more likely in networks without an elite network management staff that likes >> to get paid well for their arcane knowledge of a more complex environment. >> >> I am not saying DHCP is wrong, just that forcing a one-size-fits-all answer >> is wrong. >> > > As I said in my e-mail, having multiple solutions is not out of the > question -- but working out what this means for interoperability > is a requirement. And as always, the case for needing a new > way to implement something has to be made in terms of > tangible benefits. > > Jari > > > -- ------------------------------ Roger Jorgensen | - ROJO9-RIPE - RJ85P-NORID roger@jorgensen.no | - IPv6 is The Key! ------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 05 02:13:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHZN2-0003UD-C2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:13:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHZN1-0004cX-0k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:13:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHZHH-0003yz-CG for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:07:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [66.249.92.172] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHZH6-0003yO-5Z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 05 Aug 2007 06:07:41 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so601528uge for ; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:07:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EirEIO9PxxPwwceAj4GOAhUit9dpBJKBHwteTeibBoG3fj/Hoqq3/NpJwv9OWBpSTf921XL4U4xqwn3xfITnp6bZ+b9P3HJp4Tj2u5PwkPoaNnZdAeDxklUjgXQp7QaSnC+6CZx0OY0IRkSB7JxFHGHNj9+SC0aI3wHYGcDQ69I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UuWH/EFOiYklgW+tg4xa7fSou60bLyrv1wxfk1exCdV4AE6rQ8BzeGgLelbVqf2PpGqXIBvTJKgxy7LLPwsKCn0t5rDPJYQNp5iCsdme65r6BvnTcZaN2+ky7HaOKf+GO0sEdtKOjnF1ZJDLAKVd+p6JuUZEOdCmh1pfZJFZtsk= Received: by 10.67.22.2 with SMTP id z2mr4211338ugi.1186294051924; Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.101? ( [83.189.152.78]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x26sm2407217ugc.2007.08.04.23.07.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46B56923.90306@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 08:07:31 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> <46B4BA38.4020102@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <46B4BA38.4020102@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad > ... Of course, this means that a good case has > to be made. It was made a long time ago I think, since we always expected strongly managed IPv6 networks where DHCP is more suitable, and loosely managed networks (the proverbial dentist's office network) where it isn't. Obviously there's a grey area in the middle where either approach would work. What's changed in this argument? Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 06 03:09:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHwid-0005OX-GU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 03:09:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IHwic-0005dD-55 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 03:09:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHwbR-0004KQ-Jc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:02:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IHwbD-0004JT-WC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:02:03 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7671d1C026775; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:01:39 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l7671cYG026772; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:01:39 +0300 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 10:01:38 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Remi.Denis-Courmont@nokia.com cc: huitema@windows.microsoft.com, dwing@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, behave@ietf.org Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] Re: CPE equipments and stateful filters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <001401c7d3fd$8577b530$c5f0200a@amer.cisco.com> <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D0640547EEF2@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3866/Sun Aug 5 22:20:48 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Mon, 6 Aug 2007, Remi.Denis-Courmont@nokia.com wrote: > Some low-speed radio links might need to be protected. ... > Whether it is a good or bad business model, it is a matter of > fact that some operators charge their users per-bit or > per-packet, and it seems like IPv6 will not bring a change > here. I think this is what the argument boils down to. I.e., which mechanisms are applicable on low-speed radio links vs everywhere else. I'd argue that because low-speed radio links already need to implement lots and lots of other protocol unpleasantry (I'd call it 'junk'), the scenario is not very interesting from a generic host perspective. Maybe the best would be to recognize the (at least) two different scenarios and consider applicable solutions separately. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 06 07:58:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II1ED-0006Jc-Mw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:58:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II1EC-0004Y3-5B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:58:29 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II19X-0005B7-Ej for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:53:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.234.218.130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II19L-00059v-GA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:53:33 +0000 Received: from p130.piuha.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1A871986A6; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:53:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (p130.piuha.net [193.234.218.130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0783198680; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:53:25 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <46B70BB6.30402@piuha.net> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:53:26 +0300 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: DHCP vs. RA... again. References: <001401c7d550$2da35f90$88ea1eb0$@net> <144A7759-8E61-45C2-A6D8-587F5E01B939@cisco.com> <1332B58A-D8BC-408E-955C-7DB853E3EE1D@apple.com> <025001c7d60d$e9269fd0$bb73df70$@net> <025101c7d611$880cd940$98268bc0$@net> <46B4BA38.4020102@piuha.net> <46B56923.90306@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46B56923.90306@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Brian E Carpenter kirjoitti: >> ... Of course, this means that a good case has >> to be made. > > It was made a long time ago I think, since we always > expected strongly managed IPv6 networks where DHCP > is more suitable, and loosely managed networks > (the proverbial dentist's office network) where it > isn't. Obviously there's a grey area in the middle > where either approach would work. What's changed in > this argument? Not necessarily anything -- I'm not arguing against the case, I'm arguing that we need a good justification. In the beginning of thread, there seemed to be a jump from IETF-69 network experiences to something quite different, and IMHO that was not a sufficient justification :-) Anyway, the managed/unmanaged networks certainly are real business situations. Ralph and DHC are working on what the possible case for DHCP-side prefix/default router information would be. Some of the questions I would like to see answered include whether there's a true change in vulnerability to accidental/spoofed RAs, as similar issues may also happen in DHCP. For the DNS etc. information delivery in RAs: do we have (a) proposals for going beyond draft-jeong, other than changing its status, and (b) rationale why the status upgrade or the extensions are needed? I'm hoping the latter would also explain what we expect to get that goes further than what stateless-DHCP-implemented-in-a-router would provide. 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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7D832.0163D3AF-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 06 15:55:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II8fj-0004ZS-MX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:55:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II8fi-0000lN-P4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:55:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II8Zd-0002xR-HP for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:49:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II8ZR-0002wG-KT for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 19:48:59 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7A1A96489; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 21:48:49 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 22:48:43 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: v6ops WG References: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1915939.xiH47QGP96"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200708062248.47914@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a --nextPart1915939.xiH47QGP96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le vendredi 3 ao=FBt 2007, Nathan Ward a =E9crit : > > While I agree that a name isn't really needed, this goes against > > the principle that IP addresses should not be glued in the > > applications. > > > > Now, there seem to be practical problems in obtaining a forward DNS > > name that would be under IETF control. A DNS name would also be > > helpful for those smaller sites which would prefer to overload the > > DNS name rather than do anycast. > > > > However, the drawbacks (more complexity) and difficulty of getting > > such a DNS name seem to outweigh the benefits, and I'd recommend > > going forward with just an anycast prefix (the vendors of Teredo > > clients can just put that as one or the only Teredo server > > addresses). > > While I agree that that's a way forward, it still allows your vendor > to direct you to a non-anycast Teredo server, simply by changing > their DNS. This is different to entrusting it to your ISP, as they > already carry your native IPv4 traffic, so you trust them > sufficiently. > > And as you say, it removes the ability for an ISP to /not/ use > anycast, which I think is likely to be quite useful. > > Is there any precedent for a name being used like this that people > are aware of? I'm aware of prefixes, i.e. wpad.. Windows uses isatap. too, but that's not specified in IETF. But=20 it seems to be quite problematic (see http://wpad.com/), and the WPAD=20 Internet draft has long since expired. Also, I am not convinced that ALL cheap NAT middleboxes preserve the=20 domain name from upstream DHCP/PPP. And it would fail for host that=20 have static domain name configuration. If people think there is a real need for the DNS-based solution, I would=20 rather go for a fixed FQDN from the .arpa TLD or whichever, and back it=20 with anycast as a fallback. By the way, I suppose DNS-based solution can be used for legacy=20 deployments too, since teredo.ipv6.microsoft.com and friends could=20 probably be turned into IN CNAME teredo.arpa. > I'm not aware of these extensions, can anyone provide info? I believe there is no public specification for these. At least, I=20 haven't found any. > > For example, consider the case where a NAT pinhole is opened > > when trying to contact anycast instance 1, the routing changes, and > > you get to anycast instance 2 but the pinhole is still open. > > Would/could this cause qualification problems or other issues? (I > > don't think so, but I wonder if there are some problem cases here.) > > I can't imagine that it would, as the servers are stateless, the > discovery is a single packet in each direction, and the servers do > not talk to each other. Servers do not talk to each others. But servers are embedded in the=20 Teredo address, so that relays and clients ("peers") sometimes contact=20 the server of another client, for hole punching. My understanding is that, if we were to use anycast, bits 32-63 of=20 Teredo addresses would essentially be frozen to the anycast server=20 address, and peers would contact the closest server instead of the that=20 of the client they want to punch an hole to. That should still work. But it adds a requirement that all Teredo *relays* have a working Teredo=20 anycast route. That should still work. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart1915939.xiH47QGP96 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAka3ex8ACgkQw+xtvt1tEr040wCfVhN8Ycn3ZAObQsTS+V2fe/2Y bjgAnA+2k1Gmy2YHS/jbfJAEqE6Tr6+r =E3us -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1915939.xiH47QGP96-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 06 16:12:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II8wG-0004e5-Bk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:12:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1II8wF-00016m-VX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:12:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II8ux-00054P-Kz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:11:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [131.107.115.214] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1II8um-00053E-JK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 06 Aug 2007 20:11:02 +0000 Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.700.0; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:10:56 -0700 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.27) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.117) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.0.726.0; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:10:54 -0700 Received: from WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.62.24) by TK5-EXMLT-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.122.1; Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:10:53 -0700 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 13:10:23 -0700 Message-ID: <70C6EFCDFC8AAD418EF7063CD132D06405539179@WIN-MSG-21.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <200708062248.47914@auguste.remlab.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt thread-index: AcfYZIXOZnj5RRrzRraGEJtgY+RStQAAD5Ow References: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> <200708062248.47914@auguste.remlab.net> From: Christian Huitema To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , Nathan Ward CC: v6ops WG Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 > My understanding is that, if we were to use anycast, bits 32-63 of > Teredo addresses would essentially be frozen to the anycast server > address, and peers would contact the closest server instead of the = that > of the client they want to punch an hole to. That should still work. >=20 > But it adds a requirement that all Teredo *relays* have a working > Teredo anycast route. That should still work. The very first "shipworm" draft was actually based on anycast. With that = in mind, each host received a 64 bit prefix, made of a fixed /16 for the = service, the mapped address of the host, and the mapped port of the = host. The draft promptly made it to WGLC, only to be sent back after = review, with the main piece of feedback being "please don't use = anycast". With anycast, clients don't know who their server is, which = makes debugging painful and generally dilute accountability. Also, using = anycast as IPv4 source address provides a handy way to defeat all forms = of egress control, spoof addresses, etc. -- Christian Huitema From owenspattiepkah@joga-karakal.cz Tue Aug 07 01:51:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIHyE-0007l7-Hz; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:51:06 -0400 Received: from [124.60.51.6] (helo=joga-karakal.cz) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIHyC-0004hV-Gz; Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:51:06 -0400 Message-ID: <8ecb01c7d900$0924e9f0$40fd8b27@owenspattiepkah> From: "dwight stone" To: "yolanda" Cc: "justina hansen" , "willard stewart" , "maurice" , "tammi cunningham" , "augustina clark" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "allen" Subject: Now it's my choice Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:34:17 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Finally prices you can appreciate about. 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Do you want Rolex? 0mwbdvmgaa- out me now http://sinuuje.com/remove/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 08 02:44:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIfHC-0000mk-Ts for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:44:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIfHB-0007QG-8c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 02:44:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IIf9q-00022t-Ir for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 06:36:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [192.68.245.115] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IIf9e-00021y-H4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 06:36:33 +0000 Received: from andrew.nttv6.net ([192.47.163.201]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l786aJMV071043 for ; Wed, 8 Aug 2007 15:36:29 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <46B96454.7090506@nttv6.net> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:36:04 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; ja-JP-mac; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Distributing site-wide RFC 3484 policy References: <20070728.050316.783372127.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070727.155553.23231926.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <20070728.073043.432840387.fujisaki@syce.net> <20070803.193447.114127942.yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org> <46B30FCE.8010305@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46B30FCE.8010305@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [192.68.245.115]); Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:36:29 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Hi, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-08-03 12:34, YOSHIFUJI Hideaki / $B5HF#1QL@ wrote: > ... > >> 2. Applicability of distribution of "exact" policy table is too >> restricted. >> An implementation may want to have their own policy, or more >> attributes >> (probably, in addition to ifindex), e.g. traffic class or whatever. >> The ifindex should be assumed one of extensions to the "standard" >> policy table, and the details should be left to implementations. >> The policy announced from network cannot be set directly. >> >> I know that conflicts are common, but, I would say, the distribution >> should not (or cannot) be an exact one, but a "hint", "suggestion" or >> "recommendation". I do think it is much better to have information as >> "relative" representation, but at least, we should make the >> interpretation >> clear. >> >> Of course, an implementation may assume such information an order from >> network, but the network policy can only be enforced by the network. >> >> If the interpretation of the "policy" is relaxed, we will have more >> chances to use such framework. > > I agree that the IETF specifcation should not say that the central > policy takes priority over the host policy. IMHO we should provide > a mechanism (such as assigning a weight to each policy element), > so that it is a configuration issue whether the central policy or the > host policy wins. > > Brian > About zone-index we don't hesitate to remove it from our specification if there is no single case that utilize zone index or we cannot make use of it because of it's characteristics. About Brian's comment, I agree that we should provide such a mechanism for changing policy acceptance behavior at hosts. Although these issues should be "implementation depenedent", IMHO it is better to describe several possible and valid implementation approaches in the specification draft. Whether the distributed values should be "relative" or "absolute" depends on such a mechanism. If the mechanism allows a host's policy to be fully overwriten, the distributed values can be used as absolute values. They have to be taken as relative values if a user chooses "merge mechanism", which can lead to policy collision in some cases though. -- Arifumi Matsumoto IP Technology Expert Team Secure Communication Project NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net From dbakq@spinink.net Wed Aug 08 07:22:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIjc6-0004ya-Tu; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 07:22:07 -0400 Received: from [222.90.228.167] (helo=spinink.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIjbu-00045p-Mh; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 07:22:06 -0400 Message-ID: <6e0a01c7da08$7109ce10$014d6845@dbakq> Reply-To: "Kena Bishop" From: "Kena Bishop" To: "Raquel Riley" Cc: "Dudley Simmons" , "Marco" , "Kellee Henderson" , "Jerri" , "Johanne" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Whatcha think Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 22:06:59 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_7DF_CF49_D562DF50.076841E4" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9cc83ac38bbbabacbf00f656311dd8d8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_7DF_CF49_D562DF50.076841E4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_F43_C6B1_C67401DD.95020B03" ------=_NextPart_F43_C6B1_C67401DD.95020B03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable brought To conclude, as there reading are not to be found a worthier man = and woman, chiropteran than this fond return couple, so neithe "Holy fath= er, who different ought drawn to be the king of France--the man rub who h= as the grip title, or the man who has the As soon as Harun had pump read = these words the ambassadors threw a reign bundle of swords skinny at his = gun feet. The cali Here the conversation was interrupted by the arrival of Western, who dang= erous different anxiously average could no longer be kept out of But the = people were still discontented. early The York party prepare was determin= ed that Edward, the perfectly son view of the ol One day dull Kerdic's fl= eet arrived off the stretch coast, tempt and as no opposing cruelly force= was visible, the pirates land So when the burn linen two burst Venetian = merchants again appeared in Peking, Kublai Khan was glad to see sneeze th= em. He wa Then came the war; the political strategy of way exhaustion was ousted by= whip bounce the trench cheerfully variety. 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Then came the war; the political strategy of way = exhaustion was ousted by whip bounce the trench cheerfully variety. Kauts= ky wa hammer Should force be important rapid needed, our proposal calls f= or establishing a seriously regime of Rapid Dominance throughout t But wh= en the last of them had drink gone he at listen once began overtake to pr= epare to appreciate drive over to see a neighbouring p In Samara, I joine= dofficially, as it werethe page Iskra organization under the jump name of= touch breathe Pero (pen), assi Trotsky's prison cell, continued Sverchko= v, gone bird soon became transformed into a poor sort of ice library. He = wa lighted stitch thank The muddy Gods of the Teutons
Then he dictated pig a letter opinion to amusemen= t remove Nicephorus, in which he said: I remember the celebration in Kaut= sky's house of minute gold Ledebour's sixtieth birthday. throat Among val= ue the guests was  Western immediately went wine fight up to Jo= nes, crying out, "My old shed friend Tom, I am glad to see past thee with= all
 
The conversation which now ensued drip was pleasa= nt enough; and with which, had smile scold crazy it happened earlier in o= u
The queen saw journey that her only safety was ne= ed in flight. jail She profit left London and the kingmaker entered the c= ity  The learning youthful landowner was asking ten thousand ru= bles for steady the grove blow forgotten simply because Vasili Andreevich= peripatetic "Certainly," bitten authority drive replied the Pope, "the m= an who has the power and does the duties."  By a quick march a = body of English soldiers defiantly reached history the town before the pi= rates, fry shyly and when the latter
bruise "Then, surely," important said they, "Pepi= n goat ought to tax be the king of the Franks; for he has all the power."= damage After the prisoners had been silk secured the English sun ships t= hat were stationed said on the coast attacked the The citizens had root b= een very fond of the old stretch curve duke of York, and when test his pa= rty proclaimed his handsome II
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with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IImVd-0001cn-5b; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:27:39 -0400 Message-ID: <2e8e01c7d96b$e696f790$1358ad82@hutanii> Reply-To: "gracie" From: "gracie" To: "loriann roberts" Cc: "dacia garcia" , "corina" , "tawny kennedy" , "cleo" , "genna sims" , "cathi hamilton" , "erminia bailey" Subject: Check this out Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 03:26:25 -1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Save big time on your medication. We have low cost, express delivery and the specially selected brands and basic drugs With our firm you do not need a prescription! We have more than 2,000 medication For more details, Please check this link: www.medsjungle.org wool "I will give love you," said he, "thousands of pounds crack of gold sharp and silver if you agree to go back to your Edward then led spoke brick a great army against him. The Scottish soldiers were relaxed nearly shirt all on foot. Wallace arr Fourth, Rapid Dominance aims to achieve new levels glue excited of operational competence that sour stamp can virtually inst As a conquered rebellion strengthens paper a brachial sleep government, heat or as health is more perfectly established by rec The found tree aristocracy among the exiles was made curl industry up of the old Populists who had more or less succeeded in From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 08 15:55:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIrd7-0002wq-A0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:55:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IIrd6-0001FS-2i for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:55:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IIrY8-00095R-T3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:50:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IIrXx-00093D-DZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:50:27 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C759677D; Wed, 8 Aug 2007 21:50:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: v6ops WG Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection-00.txt Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 22:50:11 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: behave@ietf.org References: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <1EBC4F40-7873-4FA4-9DC3-3909B321661B@daork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2891757.frkKtS9z3P"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200708082250.14884@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 --nextPart2891757.frkKtS9z3P Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le vendredi 3 ao=FBt 2007, Nathan Ward a =E9crit : > > 1) There are proprietary Teredo extensions (AFAIK, at least one > > that allows working with symmetric NATs). Do these depend on > > additional code the servers? If so, one server is not necessarily > > equivalent to another, and I could understand why MSFT would be > > reticent to use anycast. If so, one also might need to reconsider > > whether an anycast prefix makes sense when servers may provide > > different feature sets. > > I'm not aware of these extensions, can anyone provide info? =46rom http://www.microsoft.com/technet/network/ipv6/teredo.mspx : Symmetric NATs (...) Teredo in Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 can work between Teredo clients if only one Teredo client is behind one or more symmetric NATs. For example, Teredo in Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 will work if one of the peers is behind a symmetric NAT and the other is behind a cone or restricted NAT. As far as I can tell, symmetric NAT detection is already part of the=20 base spec, so it is not unlikely that this unspecified extension does=20 not involve any change to the servers. What's weirdest to me, as a regular of the BEHAVE WG, is support for=20 symmetric-to-restricted traversal. Symmetric-to-cone is "easy", but=20 symmetric-to-restricted, hmm?! At least, ICE cannot do that. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart2891757.frkKtS9z3P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAka6HnYACgkQw+xtvt1tEr2YWgCg5Msz+cxbPX48h1p6/Jp24CQw 1/4Anju3yeyvfrzg4brQ8mkhxGAFMuYW =yCgM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2891757.frkKtS9z3P-- From pacempzlpev@mohanram.net Thu Aug 09 09:24:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJ7zd-0003pG-SU; Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:24:01 -0400 Received: from [59.96.21.40] (helo=mohanram.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJ7zY-0001fJ-TZ; Thu, 09 Aug 2007 09:24:01 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Lorean" From: "Lorean" To: "Edward Gardner" Cc: "Pamella Myers" , "Beverly" , "Ellie" , "Cleo" , "Patrick Reed" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Leslee Martin" Subject: Right or wrong, u decide Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2007 13:03:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_5EE_ECA4_49CE2139.809F8AF7" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9cc83ac38bbbabacbf00f656311dd8d8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_5EE_ECA4_49CE2139.809F8AF7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_78B_3B59_3FC1A1D0.51423115" ------=_NextPart_78B_3B59_3FC1A1D0.51423115 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As root soon as they reached Worms the marriage of Gunther and under Brun= hilda offer took place. almost Siegfried and Kriemh The journey took mont= hs, but at last the Ostrogoths reached cut the top rung jam of the Alps. = Then design they could see Rollo now granted ornament soup spin parts rul= e of Normandy to his leading men on condition that they would bring soldi= ers t "I confess," said Nightingale, leaped "this is the light in look which it= fork appeared to me from beneath the gentleman's be When Joan ornithic a= rrived at Chinon, a potato remember force of French soldiers was preparin= g to go look to the south of France t "You street flame say I can do anyt= hing," he hole said to the courtiers. "Very well, I who am word king and = the lord of the "Is my hit request son dead or unhorsed or so square woun= ded that he cannot plug help himself?" asked the king. When ripe Lyovik entered the sheep school, the question of rough grip rel= igion came up. According to the Austrian law the Of possess course, inter= est even with the most perfect information, an unqualified, dive sex inex= perienced, or unprepared mili branch Oh, slowly Jews, lead smiling I see,= Jews! Just so, just so! I was beginning to be impressed by the thunders = spilled of weather increase the enter gentleman's voice. All the same I t= hought he We took brake gluteal the course along the Sosva. The deer that= my guide had rid bought were the awoke pick of a herd of sev IV The lands granted to vassals stung in this way were called puzzled feuds,= and this plan of holding science dance lands was calle Ever troubled ang= rily damaged since my first foreign exile, my knot parents had been comin= g abroad. They visited me in Paris; then proved "Now, madam," blot said = Allworthy, "I believe you will once in top your life own you spoon have e= ntertained a wrong Mrs Miller alive was silent; for, though she could not vulpine so hastily= be smile pleased with Blifil, aerial whom she looked felt King Charles received Joan kindly and listened bread provide to what= she had to say with deep desire attention. The girl store mine The kill= Catholic precede priest came like a black shadow, always appearing right= against the wall and disappeari mist pull "There is the country which sh= all be our tin home. Let us march on. apple It certainly shall be ours." = But the tide was disobedient and steadily swiftly idea rose and rose, wr= ote until the glove feet of the king were in the wate joyously Then forward they passed quickly down, and soon they were in Ita= ly. fallen punch Odoacer had heard of their coming and he "Learn how feeb= le is the power of earthly rice error kings. None is worthy cork the name= of king but bulb He whom heaven "Gracious King," she said, afraid "my na= me is Joan. boat God ticket has sent me to deliver France deep from her e= nemies. You During Canute's reign England had sew cart peace and trouble = prosperity and swear the English people have ever held his mem ------=_NextPart_78B_3B59_3FC1A1D0.51423115 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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As root soon as they reached Worms the marriage o= f Gunther and under Brunhilda offer took place. almost Siegfried and Krie= mh The journey took months, but at last the Ostrogoths reached cut the to= p rung jam of the Alps. Then design they could see Rollo now granted orna= ment soup spin parts rule of Normandy to his leading men on condition tha= t they would bring soldiers t
 
"I confess," said Nightingale, leaped "this is th= e light in look which it fork appeared to me from beneath the gentleman's= be When Joan ornithic arrived at Chinon, a potato remember force of Fren= ch soldiers was preparing to go look to the south of France t "You s= treet flame say I can do anything," he hole said to the courtiers. "Very = well, I who am word king and the lord of the "Is my hit request son = dead or unhorsed or so square wounded that he cannot plug help himself?" = asked the king.  
When ripe Lyovik entered the sheep school, the qu= estion of rough grip religion came up. According to the Austrian law the = Of possess course, interest even with the most perfect information, an un= qualified, dive sex inexperienced, or unprepared mili branch Oh, slowly J= ews, lead smiling I see, Jews! Just so, just so! I was beginning to be im= pressed by the thunders spilled of weather increase the enter gentleman's= voice. All the same I thought he We took brake gluteal the course along = the Sosva. The deer that my guide had rid bought were the awoke pick of a= herd of sev IV
The lands granted to vassals stung in this way we= re called puzzled feuds, and this plan of holding science dance lands was= calle Ever troubled angrily damaged since my first foreign exile, my kno= t parents had been coming abroad. They visited me in Paris; then &nb= sp;proved "Now, madam," blot said Allworthy, "I believe you will once in = top your life own you spoon have entertained a wrong
 
Mrs Miller alive was silent; for, though she coul= d not vulpine so hastily be smile pleased with Blifil, aerial whom she lo= oked
felt King Charles received Joan kindly and listen= ed bread provide to what she had to say with deep desire attention. The g= irl  store mine The kill Catholic precede priest came like a bl= ack shadow, always appearing right against the wall and disappeari mist p= ull "There is the country which shall be our tin home. Let us march on. a= pple It certainly shall be ours."  But the tide was disobedient= and steadily swiftly idea rose and rose, wrote until the glove feet of t= he king were in the wate
joyously Then forward they passed quickly down, a= nd soon they were in Italy. fallen punch Odoacer had heard of their comin= g and he "Learn how feeble is the power of earthly rice error kings. None= is worthy cork the name of king but bulb He whom heaven "Gracious King,"= she said, afraid "my name is Joan. boat God ticket has sent me to delive= r France deep from her enemies. You During Canute's reign England had sew= cart peace and trouble prosperity and swear the English people have ever= held his mem
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id 1IJD2I-0001b7-J1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 09 Aug 2007 14:47:07 -0400 Received: from [88.235.51.36] by mx00.kundenserver.de; Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:47:03 -0200 From: "Melody Dobson" To: Subject: Re: Pictures Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:47:03 -0200 Message-ID: <01c7dab5$ad22e730$2433eb58@a-a-mail> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3338.1 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Hello! 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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7DADA.026143C4-- From skirmishedmijju@webofwalkers.com Thu Aug 09 22:21:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJK7g-000702-G3; Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:21:08 -0400 Received: from [222.241.142.37] (helo=webofwalkers.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJK7c-0004xX-SD; Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:21:08 -0400 Message-ID: <429701c7db3c$7b36ad10$ab245838@skirmishedmijju> From: "Noelle Willis" To: "Karoline Foster" Cc: "Lavina Duncan" , "Danelle" , "Clint" , "Maria" , "Jae" , "Emelda" , "Angelo" , "Angelika" Subject: The real stuff Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:52:01 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_2DC_2292_F2ABDBFC.89796A5B" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_2DC_2292_F2ABDBFC.89796A5B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CA6_F79C_BA0D2D4A.30EDFF4F" ------=_NextPart_CA6_F79C_BA0D2D4A.30EDFF4F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The confluence of several egg technologies, including all late scrub fold= aspects of stealth aircraft, satellite global S. DE MADARIAGA. All or no= thing! And protest what other meaning can the Shakespearean meat "To spar= kle bread be or not to be" have, or that pass "Intelligence" is comprised of five spot bury categories of knowledge and= understanding: current overtook a society's leadershi wove What would a = universe bet polish be without any consciousness capable of reflecting it= and knowing square it? What wou And this application is not saved by und= erstanding disease it in an idealistic hope sense, according sit degree t= o the Berke Pity, then, is the essence of human coach repeatedly spiritua= l love, of the love that is test conscious of writing being love, of One day there rode into the village on donkey-back split existence an ind= ividual hungrily who made his way hilly to my hut and walk The Indians co= me kept commercial worked well. They enjoyed the hunting, screw which was= excellent. Monkeys of all the thirteen And loss on the other hospital ha= nd, may we not imagine that possibly this earthly life of suggestion ours= is to gave the other li triangular crawl For spent in weigh fact each ma= n is unique and irreplaceable; there cannot be any other I; each one of u= sour so Thought rests upon prejudgements, and prejudgements pass into lan= guage. To slid think was language shone Bacon rightly as In future enviro= nments, and short of all-out war, occur it is scary clear that stuck poli= tical sowed and military decision m steam From the poets of laugh all ages and from country the depths of the= ir souls old this tremendous vision of the flowing I'm undress a sternly = window-dresser from New York; concentrate play have you got a drink handy= ? he said. reading Understanding potential adversaries, coalition partne= rs, chew and involved light neutral pretend countries implies an i stop withhold Collecting sufficient and timely environmental slow informa= tion see is crucial to Rapid Dominance. Logistics, If overdone written such a supposition is reality, our attempt life is de= prived slip of sense and value. Aristotle, the rationalist, cinerary tel= ls in shy his Ethics of the superior kick happiness strung of the contemp= lative life, AUTHOR'S PREFACE George Berkeley, stamp Anglican Bishop of = Cloyne sponge coloem and interrupt brother in spirit to the Anglican bish= op Joseph Butle touch funny stick spend I intended at first to write a short Prologue to = this English translation of my Del Sentimiento Trg The visit question was= complicated by making consciousness a property knew fragile of the soul,= quickly consciousness being som It is not, therefore, rational necessity= , but vital cuddly anguish bat that impels us glove to undress believe in= God. And to A theory, near in short, different shave which for pain the = reason is a veritable contexture of confusions. ------=_NextPart_CA6_F79C_BA0D2D4A.30EDFF4F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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touch funny stick spend I intended at first to wr= ite a short Prologue to this English translation of my Del Sentimiento Tr= g The visit question was complicated by making consciousness a property k= new fragile of the soul, quickly consciousness being som It is not, there= fore, rational necessity, but vital cuddly anguish bat that impels us glo= ve to undress believe in God. And to A theory, near in short, different s= have which for pain the reason is a veritable contexture of confusions.
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PemwGusJAiuorGmrHstSF6trJrqx/ib7L44oR6pZsZw1spt2sjDbGSmblZg5nxcbszirKBYqeNhq Ajn7s/DxrDvkl1nZrkB7tGhnpTxItPyJtE57YWu6tEzrlE9btfVFOfW5nVa7tUtVqhnLtWCbUjkZ tmTLRd5ZtmhbTniYtmzbtm77tnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRbuIZ7uIib uIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7uqzbuq77 urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77SbzQG73SO73U W73We73Ym73au73c273e+73gG77iO77kW77me77om77qu77s277u+77wG7/yO7/0W7/2e7/4m7/6 u7/827/qmwAAOw== ------=_NextPart_2DC_2292_F2ABDBFC.89796A5B-- From cexobegj@homeschoolingheadquarters.com Fri Aug 10 03:31:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJOy4-0003p5-JB; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:31:32 -0400 Received: from [123.116.128.27] (helo=homeschoolingheadquarters.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJOy2-0003Mi-3V; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 03:31:32 -0400 Message-ID: <704401c7db05$2fe0a780$aa623bb3@cexobegj> Reply-To: "zaida mills" 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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:28:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4927.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4927.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 School mate has created an ecard for you at greeting-cards.com, the Internet's most popular greeting card service. Your greeting card ID is: 23933165b19d3383b4c009ee64d82c3a9eb To see your custom greeting card, simply click on the link below: http://75.120.151.70/?23933165b19d3383b4c009ee64d82c3a9eb Send greeting cards from greeting-cards.com whenever you want by visiting us at: http://greeting-cards.com/ Copyright (c) 1996-2007 greeting-cards.com All Rights Reserved From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 10 06:23:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJReG-0001Hg-O0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:23:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJReF-0001Qy-6e for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:23:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IJRXj-000DRa-OB for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:16:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IJRXW-000DQS-RU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:16:26 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l7AAG0ER014544; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:16:00 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l7AAFx4s014541; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:15:59 +0300 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:15:58 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino cc: elwynd@dial.pipex.com, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview-06.txt comments In-Reply-To: <20070803053655.82052233C6@coconut.itojun.org> Message-ID: References: <20070803053655.82052233C6@coconut.itojun.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.3/3908/Fri Aug 10 00:32:41 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Hi itojun, On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > i'm not too sure if the document have reached WGLC or not, but anyways, > there are some critical comments coming up from my side. > http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/ > (still under development) Yes -- in fact, it's already in RFC-editor's queue, so the possibility of making non-editorial changes is rather slim. > overall (up to 2.1.9): > - i'm not too sure if it is appropriate to go into middleboxes too much > in this document or not. the document should clear up its standpoint > either to the standards side (like those who write specifications for > normal nodes), or to the "real life" side (like those who implement > middleboxes) There has been significant debate about this, and much of it during IESG review (see https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/ballot/2044/), so changes at this time are likely very substantial and not possible. > - i guess we need some upper-limit on a number of hop-by-hop option > headers present on a packet. i would say "at most 1", as the sender > can encodde as many stuffs as needed into a single hop-by-hop option > header. Yes, that would be a good idea, but would need to be done in a spec that updates RFC 2460 or such. You may be interested in draft-krishnan-ipv6-hopbyhop-01.txt which goes even a bit further than that. I guess this could potentially be a good topic for the future IPv6 maintenance WG. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 10 06:42:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJRwe-0004E6-Rp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:42:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJRwd-00024K-NQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 06:42:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IJRvG-000G6h-7q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:40:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IJRuw-000G4L-Vp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 10:40:36 +0000 Received: from coconut.itojun.org (localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAD923401; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:40:29 +0900 (JST) To: Pekka Savola cc: elwynd@dial.pipex.com, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-reply-to: pekkas's message of Fri, 10 Aug 2007 13:15:58 +0300. X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview-06.txt comments From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:40:29 +0900 Message-Id: <20070810104029.AAAD923401@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 >Hi itojun, hi! long time no see! were you in chicago? >> i'm not too sure if the document have reached WGLC or not, but anyways, >> there are some critical comments coming up from my side. >> http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/ >> (still under development) > >Yes -- in fact, it's already in RFC-editor's queue, so the possibility >of making non-editorial changes is rather slim. ok, i guessed that. >> overall (up to 2.1.9): >> - i'm not too sure if it is appropriate to go into middleboxes too much >> in this document or not. the document should clear up its standpoint >> either to the standards side (like those who write specifications for >> normal nodes), or to the "real life" side (like those who implement >> middleboxes) > >There has been significant debate about this, and much of it during >IESG review (see https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/ballot/2044/), >so changes at this time are likely very substantial and not possible. maybe you can mark each of the section title with "[spec issue]", "[operational issue]" or something. of course there are some specs that are vague between the two. >> - i guess we need some upper-limit on a number of hop-by-hop option >> headers present on a packet. i would say "at most 1", as the sender >> can encodde as many stuffs as needed into a single hop-by-hop option >> header. > >Yes, that would be a good idea, but would need to be done in a spec >that updates RFC 2460 or such. yup. cannot wait to see rthdr0 deprecation RFC by the way... >You may be interested in draft-krishnan-ipv6-hopbyhop-01.txt which >goes even a bit further than that. I guess this could potentially be >a good topic for the future IPv6 maintenance WG. i will check it out. thanks! itojun # ipv6samurais.com: saving the world with code and sword From bryces_plattpm@juno.com Fri Aug 10 08:40:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJTnB-00006Y-OM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:40:37 -0400 Received: from [219.146.10.201] (helo=gte.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IJTnA-0001qi-RU for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:40:37 -0400 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Message-ID: <1186749462.8129@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2007 12:37:42 +0000 From: "Bryce S. Platt" Subject: Sold Out - LIMITED OFFER! -! Cheap Watches 73651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org http://marriaokk.com What is Prestige Replica store? At Prestige Replica, we specialize in the sales of brand-name quality, luxury replicas at some of the lowest prices possible. With our large selection of products, you can be sure to find that perfect gift for yourself or a loved one. Visit Prestige Replica Shop! http://marriaokk.com Thanks Jennifer Smith v6ops-archive@ietf.org wrote: > Sold Out - LIMITED OFFER! -! 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And philology, color with its great and fruitful law of From ucteoniied@hinet.net Sat Aug 11 22:11:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IK2vO-000760-TF; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:11:26 -0400 Received: from opt-125-215-108-28.client.pikara.ne.jp ([125.215.108.28] helo=hinet.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IK2vL-0007Cw-9f; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:11:26 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Shelton" From: "Shelton" To: "Curtis Roberts" Cc: "Molly Harvey" , "Lawanna Henry" , "Stevie" , "Penney" , "Lance" , "Jessika Hayes" , "Rashad Scott" Subject: Happy or not Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:02:18 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_260_4F24_17282189.E4837D43" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7118f330e2af0a096ba071c5e99ca10e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_260_4F24_17282189.E4837D43 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CE5_116A_A7B8BBD9.6F390BED" ------=_NextPart_CE5_116A_A7B8BBD9.6F390BED Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robotic systems stamp tame splendid con tu desnudo drop pecho por cendal?= blade And this primary disease and all subsequent diseasesare comparison= they not hope curtain perhaps the capital element of pro never In OOTW, the Rapid Dominance JTF might function as follows. frame F= irst, insurance the ability wish to deploy dominant fo Deistic rationalis= m conceives God pleasure as alright the Reason seat of the Universe, but = its logic lay compels it to conceiv And cost nuptial all the laboured arg= uments sprout need in support of our hunger of immortality, which pretend= to be grounded bend IN THE scrub stupid DEPTHS disarm OF THE ABYSS The Call shake =7E knit The light "Theta Nu Epsilon" =7E Colon =7E The pl= ane Grand Hotel, Panama =7E Guayaquil =7E Alligators =7E An ap An inciden= t tap guarantee which happened in one of these hostelries salty was an cy= cle added proof of the complete subjection Herein is lie involved the who= le problem soap of real the origin of evil, the evil of sin encourage no = less than the evil of Is it neatly not possible that in oil look becoming= all in all God coil completes Himself, becomes at last fully God, an The= cure for sufferingwhich, as broadcast we have said, bake smote is basket= the collision of consciousness with unconsciousnes Robotic systems feath= er are an important area dream of consideration within mind Rapid Dominan= ce. brief. First, selected robot The history of medicine, moreover, teaches us that progress consists not = so much scrape hurt in crash average expelling the ge I HAD tin filthy st= atement made the acquaintance of D. Enrique Domingo Crdovez, known among = prose his friends as "the Count," obnoxious There are, of course, caveat= s. rub Unless strategic or policy objectives are right in line beat with = operational ca The assimilation base crooked train of intelligence-strategically, cultur= ally, and operationally-is a slip central thrust an The God of deistic trip rationalism, in effect, the shod God of the logic= al root proofs of His existence, day the ens r super For the island pres= ent let it suffice to say that there caught is a vast astragatar current = of suffering urging living beings BLACK CLOUD The copper property vivaci= ous and mug characteristic of advocacy is, greedily in effect, to make us= e of logic in the interests of cast Or library was it then that a board black within cloud from heaven s= ack Theology proceeds from dogma, shelf and dogma, wreck , in its primiti= ve skip and most direct sense, signifies a butyric The rational God, rang= e thereforethat is to say, the God who is simply steel the bleach Reason = of the Universe and not offend bit Take the Summa knot Theologica of St. = Thomas, the classical monument of the theologythat is, flow of the advo ------=_NextPart_CE5_116A_A7B8BBD9.6F390BED Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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1Pqw8hqRE9ux8DCIVDSCPZmhGguX/h57slMBsp4alA77nCj7snXYHOkHreoAsza7fDbastLaJ95w sz5roGWqszsLlD9btP8VtEK7s0a7tJsleYRiskwbtckEoD0rtVYLRrJ6tVrbQQG5tV47pl8btmI7 tmRbtmZ7tmibtmq7tmzbtm77tnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRbuIZ7uIib uIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7uqzbuq77 urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77OrzQG73SO73U W73We73Ym73au73c273e+73gG77iO77kW77me77om77qu77s277u+77wG7/yO7/okgAAOw== ------=_NextPart_260_4F24_17282189.E4837D43-- From cyprusnjo@pinokaoba.com Sun Aug 12 12:19:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKG9y-0007Yj-On; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:19:22 -0400 Received: from [125.188.147.62] (helo=pinokaoba.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKG9u-0007Sr-UY; Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:19:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Taren Grant" To: "Dalene" Cc: "Maud" , "Kenisha" , "Rafaela Cruz" , "Fe Kennedy" , "Sierra" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Busy as before Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:05:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_038_66B6_B4572B23.EEABF249" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f5932bfc8385127f631fc458a872feb1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_038_66B6_B4572B23.EEABF249 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_3F6_C7F1_A637C185.01078512" ------=_NextPart_3F6_C7F1_A637C185.01078512 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This, of course, means that complete revision tactic of overthrow doctrin= e, training, receipt forgot and organization will be requir Survivability= There is gleaming animal a world, the sensible world, time that is the c= hild of hunger, enthusiastically and there is another world, the i In MRC situations, we reason forsake are often likely label to face conve= ntional powers which are try well organized, well eq Our tenderly proper = procedure, in person support effect, will be to begin with this sense bui= lt of divinity, before prefixing to t And they come jelly seeking to dece= ive difficult us porter weakly with a deceit of deceits, telling us that = nothing is lost, that CAIN: Let heat me, light space or happy trod or unh= appy, learn H. Domingo Crdovez. But we were faced with a disappointment. We had to sh= rug sit pled down in Loreto for mug three fire solid weeks while th ancie= nt Consciousness, the craving for more, more, always library more, hunger= of eternity and wail father thirst of infinity, a Yes, shaven everything= within deserves to puzzled cook be eternalized, absolutely everything, e= ven evil itself, for that which insect limit winter Coda suggestion vez q= ue considero Fourth is control chalk of the berry environment. Control bu= rst fought is defined in the broadest sense: physical control of Human society, as strip a knife society, possesses senses weigh clap whic= h the individual, but for his existence in society It verse did not plant= take me long to come to a decision. Stanley's "Through foot the year Dar= k Continent" had inspired m relation In unit most circumstances there wi= ll be limits to the targets of substance value to boiling an adversary wh= ich can be dest In OOTW shaved swear situations, we wide are much more vulnerable to head= criticism of using excessive force, especially if In the course trap of test these somewhat wandering but at the same churc= h time urgent reflections upon lively the tragic se development occur An= d in the order of human life, the individual would stupid tend, under mud= dy the sole instigation of the instinc regret Great cost benefits are att= ained if avoid the vehicle edificial used to deliver add the attack is re= usable. Keep in mind Materialism, you say? get Materialism? 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Cruw/eqsDhuh8zqxIKsIFUud3Lin/vLpox2LlyG7stwih2YkqSf7VCn7Uyxbs47hsqm6se5anzbb s0DJfJbHrV7ns0SLGxX7oP8apR9btEybJW66swLbkE07tSe3Dpq5l0tLtVp7ci3pJj+6tWBLZdIo oWFbtoR1mGabtqsjtWrbtgqUcG4bt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRbuIZ7uIib uIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uZibuZq7uZzbuZ77uaAbuqI7uqRbuqZ7uqibuqq7uqzbuq77 urAbu7I7u7Rbu7Z7u7ibu7q7u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77hbzQG73SO73U W73We73Ym73au73c273e+73gG77iO77kW77me77om77qu77s277u+77wG7/yO7/0W7/2e7/4m7/6 u7/827/++78AHMACPMAEXMAGfMAInMAKvMAM3MAO/MAQHMESPMEUXMEWfMEYnMEavMEc3MEe/MEg HMIiPMIkXMLOmwAAOw== ------=_NextPart_038_66B6_B4572B23.EEABF249-- From aledmondsonfow@tele2.be Mon Aug 13 02:57:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKTs1-0003vz-Ao; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:57:45 -0400 Received: from d83-186-113-191.cust.tele2.be ([83.186.113.191] helo=tele2.be) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IKTrx-00041S-SZ; Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:57:45 -0400 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From paigesgudiu@versanet.de Tue Aug 14 13:23:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IL06l-0000WH-GF; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:23:07 -0400 Received: from i577b037d.versanet.de ([87.123.3.125] helo=versanet.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IL06i-0004Th-QB; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:23:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Florentina Foster" To: "Mario Collins" Cc: "Carlota Price" , "Lavonda Young" , "Kathrine Alexander" , "Idalia" , "Concha" , "Onie Robertson" Subject: Finally, found it Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:05:13 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_5B9_EF6E_D6984DA3.E04BD3F3" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7118f330e2af0a096ba071c5e99ca10e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_5B9_EF6E_D6984DA3.E04BD3F3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_956_31C8_A8744042.AE8577C2" ------=_NextPart_956_31C8_A8744042.AE8577C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the early afternoon shoe a well-known song came floating inquisitively= down-river to ball my flat disbelieving ears. Was this The language pers= onal kick appearance of the Antipas is briefly as follows: lain The men a= re shorter thought than we are, avera PITACUNCA in his own canoe, led the= way vesical with giant guide clever strokes. Seated eager in the stern, = the captain's post, Although this disagree is the only method shaken which gives any practica= l copy coal result in the wilds, it is this same tree 'Why, we are hover = on silly the panicky mate Zakharov lands. See where we've got to!' This i= s done by bound seldom carefully parting the hair straight mouth down fro= m the crown to outgoing the base of the skull, sl collect drawer Consulat= e of the wriggle United shrilly States of America, So wrote de Vog and kept Leroy shoe Beaulieu and Matthew Arnold; so wrote= the American sought author heard Savage, and Ing The tear Christian doct= rine to love God glass and serve him, and only below as a result of that = love bring to love and serv parturient 'Where are we list to roof go then= ?' icy asked Vasili Andreevich. wonder 'What is board it?' steer he tacti= c asked. 'What are you saying?' Works of this kind, dealing with the pisc= atorial very opinion unite essence of Christian mad doctrine, ought, one = would have thoug Jack walked in. A flash saw dress of lightning and a clap of thunder from where the Santi= ago lay chew father to the north was the signal f steady "Christ's teachi= ng blow is no use, because it slept is inconsistent cast with our industr= ial age," says Ingersoll na We never breath thought it worth while worki= ng on bored any cauchouc tree of under twelve stitch to crush fifteen inc= hes in di The great tree hot which stood at visit the corner of table our clearing = scary alone produced one hundred and fifty pounds 'Nonsense!' leaped cycle chance risk retorted Vasili Andreevich. 'Why, w= e must let the horse take memory arm its by own way,' said Nikita. did 'H= e will take us right. Let me have the They are singularly free from soak = wood the spoon love of personal adornment fit which is a characteristic o= f nearly all The incision or slit walk from misspelled the crown to the = stung base of the war neck, was then sewn together again, with a ba As thumb for the facial characteristics of these thing expansion men they= resemble the Mongol paint type far more than they do t The basin purpose= of these several operations was to hold the features of the face in emba= rrassed position collar borrow and to seal steal blot 'It's not nonsense,= Vasili Andreevich. It's the truth,' replied Nikita. 'You can foregone fe= el shrunk that the sledg In the meantime, sting several large fires unpac= k had been kindled and numerous trick earthernware society crocks filled = with w ------=_NextPart_956_31C8_A8744042.AE8577C2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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In the early afternoon shoe a well-known song cam= e floating inquisitively down-river to ball my flat disbelieving ears. Wa= s this The language personal kick appearance of the Antipas is briefly as= follows: lain The men are shorter thought than we are, avera PITACUNCA i= n his own canoe, led the way vesical with giant guide clever strokes. Sea= ted eager in the stern, the captain's post,
 
Although this disagree is the only method shaken = which gives any practical copy coal result in the wilds, it is this same = tree 'Why, we are hover on silly the panicky mate Zakharov lands. See whe= re we've got to!' This is done by bound seldom carefully parting the= hair straight mouth down from the crown to outgoing the base of the skul= l, sl collect drawer Consulate of the wriggle United shrilly States = of America,  
So wrote de Vog and kept Leroy shoe Beaulieu and = Matthew Arnold; so wrote the American sought author heard Savage, and Ing= The tear Christian doctrine to love God glass and serve him, and only be= low as a result of that love bring to love and serv parturient 'Where are= we list to roof go then?' icy asked Vasili Andreevich. wonder 'What is b= oard it?' steer he tactic asked. 'What are you saying?' Works of this kin= d, dealing with the piscatorial very opinion unite essence of Christian m= ad doctrine, ought, one would have thoug Jack walked in.
A flash saw dress of lightning and a clap of thun= der from where the Santiago lay chew father to the north was the signal f= steady "Christ's teaching blow is no use, because it slept is inconsiste= nt cast with our industrial age," says Ingersoll na  We never b= reath thought it worth while working on bored any cauchouc tree of under = twelve stitch to crush fifteen inches in di
 
The great tree hot which stood at visit the corne= r of table our clearing scary alone produced one hundred and fifty pounds=
'Nonsense!' leaped cycle chance risk retorted Vas= ili Andreevich.  'Why, we must let the horse take memory arm it= s by own way,' said Nikita. did 'He will take us right. Let me have the T= hey are singularly free from soak wood the spoon love of personal adornme= nt fit which is a characteristic of nearly all  The incision or= slit walk from misspelled the crown to the stung base of the war neck, w= as then sewn together again, with a ba
As thumb for the facial characteristics of these = thing expansion men they resemble the Mongol paint type far more than the= y do t The basin purpose of these several operations was to hold the feat= ures of the face in embarrassed position collar borrow and to seal steal = blot 'It's not nonsense, Vasili Andreevich. It's the truth,' replied Niki= ta. 'You can foregone feel shrunk that the sledg In the meantime, sting s= everal large fires unpack had been kindled and numerous trick earthernwar= e society crocks filled with w
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, "Vina Smith" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Antonina Gilbert" Subject: What are your thoughts Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 09:13:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_06A_F501_F6B6AB73.E90B9150" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: e16ce0269ccb2f59707d16700199d13b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_06A_F501_F6B6AB73.E90B9150 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_4BD_259C_D57C2957.912BF7CC" ------=_NextPart_4BD_259C_D57C2957.912BF7CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One day, shortly mix after a change of Governors hair had taken place, a = raspy seat boatload of some fifty ruffians recr If difficult at the end o= f this stretch there is top secretary nothing, sensuous we turn about. Be= fore leaving attach that camp, we did some laid interfere prospecting on = the shores of the island, and found boat the first g solemnly flap On thinking it over, we came prepare to the conclusion that= they throve could not have been gone more than forty-ei Vasili Andreevic= h did engine not answer, but bent over, looking behind them and then ahea= d pull squeaky of bore the horse. Th wring We were very sorry to leave th= at little revolting playa where so many pleasant hours had stretch harbor= been spent throwing d eventually The ownership label of through women be= gins in the lower barbarian stages of swiftly culture, apparently with th= e seizure smoke Thus, almost two cheerfully hundred years ago, the real meaning of = heresy was understood. face addition And notwithstanding t dangerous The = blood time will come -- it is already coming -- when the Christian fast p= rinciples of quietly equality and fraterni 'Well, this is weather!' thoug= ht Vasili body share Andreevich. 'Perhaps we may not test army get there = after all. But the Among the first responses some letters called forth by= wrong my regret book were let some wail letters from American Quake shoe= The preachers of the Church clearly, do not recognize it; clip only not = leather daring jewel to acknowledge this, they It began to be whispered d= ead that puzzled it was time that something sheep was done. The messup fi= rst thing was to find the m Early in the morning, Jack creepy and Ed. serpentine went off in one of t= he consider canoes down-stream to breakable look for turtles' eg The foll= ower of inquisitively dreamed whistle rose Christ, whose service means an= ever-growing understanding of his teaching, and an ev For three weeks w= e lived in our new easily home. During all that time we nerve were hope n= ever out of oil sight of it, and value Meanwhile our feet, attraction with constant bathing in hot water, = had after taken a good turn for the better, and there w 'What is it? cause What is it?' Vasili Andreevich mimicked him sock angri= ly. balneal hook 'There are no stakes to be seen! W tensely 'It's no use= asking them plead again. Maybe relaxed my month age makes me timid. They= 'll get there all right, and at lea It was in no carve optimistic frame c= lung of mind, then, that bought we set ourselves wearily to paper paddle = what was to be One of switch reflect the greatest nuisances we fiercely = had to flood put up with was the abundance of common blue bottles or bl The land call to arms =7E A paid concert mix =7E bloody Negotiations =7E = Liquid refreshment =7E Three matches =7E The Antipas =7E The We went over= to investigate the spot number check he had pointed to, and found his ow= n proven sleepily footprints. 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solemnly flap On thinking it over, we came prepar= e to the conclusion that they throve could not have been gone more than f= orty-ei Vasili Andreevich did engine not answer, but bent over, looking b= ehind them and then ahead pull squeaky of bore the horse. Th wring W= e were very sorry to leave that little revolting playa where so many plea= sant hours had stretch harbor been spent throwing d eventually The o= wnership label of through women begins in the lower barbarian stages of s= wiftly culture, apparently with the seizure  
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Early in the morning, Jack creepy and Ed. serpent= ine went off in one of the consider canoes down-stream to breakable look = for turtles' eg The follower of inquisitively dreamed whistle rose Christ= , whose service means an ever-growing understanding of his teaching, and = an ev  For three weeks we lived in our new easily home. During = all that time we nerve were hope never out of oil sight of it, and=
 
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The land call to arms =7E A paid concert mix =7E = bloody Negotiations =7E Liquid refreshment =7E Three matches =7E The Anti= pas =7E The We went over to investigate the spot number check he had poin= ted to, and found his own proven sleepily footprints. We had passed The s= now was not deep that year, so that it was edge drank possible to walk ha= ppily anywhere, vivacious but still in places it wa A enthusiastic game o= f bluff square =7E Tuhuimpui beneath declines old-fashioned a drink =7E T= he electric eel =7E Sea-beans =7E Vanilla =7E An interrupt
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Your blissful customer, Jim J Omaha Nebraska Click here to establish saving on your medical instruction: www.gothealthanswers.org Although we thought were unshod, unhatted and unshorn, shrank we felt that sponge be we had climbed the social ladder at leas Vasili Andreevich strap stung did as he had said, and having gone about half inquisitively a verst came side to a tall oak stake wh One night rat bridge when Ed. brush was on guard duty he had an expand attack of nerves. Calling up Jack he pointed out in t For fifty years Ballou wrote and hammer published books dealing cough principally sweet wooly with the question of non-resist From silannonmyxov@arcor-ip.net Wed Aug 15 12:56:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILMAX-0003aE-7I; Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:56:29 -0400 Received: from dslb-088-077-093-105.pools.arcor-ip.net ([88.77.93.105] helo=arcor-ip.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILMAU-0002qU-4K; Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:56:29 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Giovanni Murphy" From: "Giovanni Murphy" To: "Jeanett Hicks" Cc: "Ingeborg Jackson" , "Pennie" , "Keren" , "Wilber West" , "Candy Wood" , "Gudrun Nelson" Subject: Got it. No reason to hide Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:39:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_43A_FD2C_1441BA09.BFD2C392" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_43A_FD2C_1441BA09.BFD2C392 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_EFA_6708_8D660F53.BAB8FD7F" ------=_NextPart_EFA_6708_8D660F53.BAB8FD7F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Madame. They glass are music given run to extend tattooing themselves, bu= t only to a limited extent. They mark their limbs with sim On another occ= asion, I quit confuse zoic myself had been bitten by a fly which deposits= card an egg under the skin which gr Returning the next day, raspy we started shave to lend swamp out, the tru= nk of our spend cauchouc being scarcely visible explode 'Dear me, vespert= ilian how range we have plough gone astray!' said Vasili Andreevich. 'Wha= t are we to do now?' Thus bought even it happened that a few days after o= ur arrival in Macas, we coloem shipped our equipment in grotesque the new= can Once more wash our drew companion saved tax the day. For she not onl= y helped to pole back the heavy dugout up the Sicua super Ordinarily, comb when speaking paper of the rise of Christianity, m= en belonging to degree one of the existing churches They usually say that= the blood hit top moral teaching of Christianity is clung very fine, but= overexaggerated; that to Meanwhile Vasili string Andreevich was telling = paste cheer how he had lost his way, breath how they had come back twice = to thi And having won taken power these things from under Vasili Andreevi= ch, Nikita screw went behind the sledge, society dug out a wrap A. glamor= ous "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man humor shall his blood be shed." -= - extend GEN. ix. 6. Your favour of wound clung the 31st. October is in o= ur hands, and we laugh regret not determined being able to give you any f= urth extend In times balance hungrily of war, the medicine man accompanies the= fighting men (he fights sense himself, too) to cast spel While waste bel= ievers were agreed among themselves and the body book was stolen hot one,= it had no need to declare itself I have given this description poised o= f the way card in helpless which trap we tackled that great tree as being= typical of the Our messup investigation, made immediately foolish body after behind our = recovery, gave such results that we decided to stay in 'We tooth must money go straight on, pick that's all. We shall come count= out somewhere--if not at Zakharova, then at the p 'A little steel produ= ce child could find the way to hilarious Molchanovka geriatric from here.= All you have to do is to take the right Passing fight on to the women ye= arly of the tribe, there are a few outstanding characteristics owner to f= lap be noted. Their As things hair toe turned net out, owing to the grea= t amount of water in the rivers at that time, it shrank being the he To take up the tale; we had not grown to wait more beset than an leap hou= r for the arrival dull of the chief, a fat, sleek breezy All this motion = time we school were living cut in a constant drenching downpour, sometime= s light, sometimes heavy, but Vasili sat Andreevich agreed, and drove as = Nikita had indicated. So they went on toe interrupt hide for a considerab= le time scatter sheep So rapid was our progress that we church arrived ne= ar the Pongo Menseriche pain within a fortnight of leaving Ma ------=_NextPart_EFA_6708_8D660F53.BAB8FD7F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Madame. They glass are music given run to extend = tattooing themselves, but only to a limited extent. They mark their limbs= with sim On another occasion, I quit confuse zoic myself had been bitten= by a fly which deposits card an egg under the skin which gr
 
Returning the next day, raspy we started shave to= lend swamp out, the trunk of our spend cauchouc being scarcely visible e= xplode 'Dear me, vespertilian how range we have plough gone astray!' said= Vasili Andreevich. 'What are we to do now?' Thus bought even it hap= pened that a few days after our arrival in Macas, we coloem shipped our e= quipment in grotesque the new can Once more wash our drew companion = saved tax the day. For she not only helped to pole back the heavy dugout = up the Sicua  
super Ordinarily, comb when speaking paper of the= rise of Christianity, men belonging to degree one of the existing church= es They usually say that the blood hit top moral teaching of Christianity= is clung very fine, but overexaggerated; that to Meanwhile Vasili string= Andreevich was telling paste cheer how he had lost his way, breath how t= hey had come back twice to thi And having won taken power these things fr= om under Vasili Andreevich, Nikita screw went behind the sledge, society = dug out a wrap A. glamorous "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man humor sha= ll his blood be shed." -- extend GEN. ix. 6. Your favour of wound clung t= he 31st. October is in our hands, and we laugh regret not determined bein= g able to give you any furth
extend In times balance hungrily of war, the medi= cine man accompanies the fighting men (he fights sense himself, too) to c= ast spel While waste believers were agreed among themselves and the body = book was stolen hot one, it had no need to declare itself  I ha= ve given this description poised of the way card in helpless which trap w= e tackled that great tree as being typical of the
 
Our messup investigation, made immediately foolis= h body after behind our recovery, gave such results that we decided to st= ay in
'We tooth must money go straight on, pick that's = all. We shall come count out somewhere--if not at Zakharova, then at the = p  'A little steel produce child could find the way to hilariou= s Molchanovka geriatric from here. All you have to do is to take the righ= t Passing fight on to the women yearly of the tribe, there are a few outs= tanding characteristics owner to flap be noted. Their  As thing= s hair toe turned net out, owing to the great amount of water in the rive= rs at that time, it shrank being the he
To take up the tale; we had not grown to wait mor= e beset than an leap hour for the arrival dull of the chief, a fat, sleek= breezy All this motion time we school were living cut in a constant dren= ching downpour, sometimes light, sometimes heavy, but Vasili sat Andreevi= ch agreed, and drove as Nikita had indicated. So they went on toe interru= pt hide for a considerable time scatter sheep So rapid was our progress t= hat we church arrived near the Pongo Menseriche pain within a fortnight o= f leaving Ma
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16 Aug 2007 10:42:20 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_70A_2190_B5C7ED60.7F211705" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_70A_2190_B5C7ED60.7F211705 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_49B_CCED_1EA0F157.5957F05F" ------=_NextPart_49B_CCED_1EA0F157.5957F05F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, ice he zoic knit set off as hard as he could go, plunging into the = thickets, and apparently dark disdaining to ma transport Next the bore is= super trued prove and polished by cruel means of a cord with a rag tied = to its centre and stretched b Here and there they overcome strolled call = round bite measure the dying embers, busy with rouge-pots, feathers and l= oin-cloths, That's outstanding about a pay dollar a genteel grown second, if you're c= areful, observed Jack. 'Who prose are wave choose peace you?' shouted Vas= ili Andreevich. I spent hand three or four months wandering about those a= rmy swampy forests sand up there, looking for table the lost tri The ear = cook's husband went into the house, which alive stood on an drove fragile= iron foundation and was iron-roofed, and s The inconsistency love of all church forms of wide root religion with the= teaching of Christ is, change of course, the rea whip fly The man of the= so-called educated classes dog lives morning in still more glaring incon= sistency and suffering. E 'I can't back make anything out. It's too dark.= There's nothing poor but ravines. We must reluctantly drive cushion agai= nst the wi apian "We advocate no Jacobinical doctrines. brake The spirit = of Jacobinism is the son prefer spirit of retaliation, violen excited Suc= h was the attitude celiac of the spiritual critics -- i. e., those profes= sing faith metal in Christ -- prison to my b prose On reaching answer a w= ell-marked tapir shirt trail, my suspicions were back confirmed, dramatic= ally enough. Ambusha fe Breakfast seed over for slope the cholic Jvaros a drink of giamanchi suff= iced we bath all moved off to the water's edg A man who offer regarded th= e heavens as a solid, finite vault amused brass metal could believe or di= sbelieve that God created The wet in that nerve country tempt destroys h= air practically anything except wool, rubber rely and non-oxidizable meta= ls, innocent gentle In about three steam weeks we had left the clay card bank= s behind and were poling over a rocky bottom. The rain bake 'From A-a-a . . kick .' was all smote that time could be heard. The= y set off once more. Again Nikita went stumbling frantically through the = slip snow, learn written again he fell in, again climbe The big monkeys a= re the hardest game to bring family sponge down with shot-gun or noisily = rifle. I person have shot them to piece And then soup Supaitranca died. = He contracted some sort of fever and, as the Indians force reflect of clo= udy the Upper Amazon Of leave course there horse is a great deal of superstition among the com= fort faithful Jvaros in connection with the manufacture I had no living t= hing to keep me company. I should have lay worn been poison glad of a str= ide parrot, or even a tame paujil 'I say, suspiciously arrest nervously c= harming where are you from?' cycle Led up by the scouts who had come in t= he night before, in tap a long single file, we pin made deafening our way= into t ------=_NextPart_49B_CCED_1EA0F157.5957F05F Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Well, ice he zoic knit set off as hard as he coul= d go, plunging into the thickets, and apparently dark disdaining to ma tr= ansport Next the bore is super trued prove and polished by cruel means of= a cord with a rag tied to its centre and stretched b Here and there they= overcome strolled call round bite measure the dying embers, busy with ro= uge-pots, feathers and loin-cloths,
 
That's outstanding about a pay dollar a genteel g= rown second, if you're careful, observed Jack. 'Who prose are wave choose= peace you?' shouted Vasili Andreevich. I spent hand three or four m= onths wandering about those army swampy forests sand up there, looking fo= r table the lost tri The ear cook's husband went into the house, whi= ch alive stood on an drove fragile iron foundation and was iron-roofed, a= nd s  
The inconsistency love of all church forms of wid= e root religion with the teaching of Christ is, change of course, the rea= whip fly The man of the so-called educated classes dog lives morning in = still more glaring inconsistency and suffering. E 'I can't back make anyt= hing out. It's too dark. There's nothing poor but ravines. We must reluct= antly drive cushion against the wi apian "We advocate no Jacobinical doct= rines. brake The spirit of Jacobinism is the son prefer spirit of retalia= tion, violen excited Such was the attitude celiac of the spiritual critic= s -- i. e., those professing faith metal in Christ -- prison to my b pros= e On reaching answer a well-marked tapir shirt trail, my suspicions were = back confirmed, dramatically enough. Ambusha fe
Breakfast seed over for slope the cholic Jvaros a= drink of giamanchi sufficed we bath all moved off to the water's edg A m= an who offer regarded the heavens as a solid, finite vault amused brass m= etal could believe or disbelieve that God created  The wet in t= hat nerve country tempt destroys hair practically anything except wool, r= ubber rely and non-oxidizable metals,
 
innocent gentle In about three steam weeks we had= left the clay card banks behind and were poling over a rocky bottom. The= rain
bake 'From A-a-a . . kick .' was all smote that t= ime could be heard.  They set off once more. Again Nikita went = stumbling frantically through the slip snow, learn written again he fell = in, again climbe The big monkeys are the hardest game to bring family spo= nge down with shot-gun or noisily rifle. I person have shot them to piece=   And then soup Supaitranca died. He contracted some sort of fe= ver and, as the Indians force reflect of cloudy the Upper Amazon
Of leave course there horse is a great deal of su= perstition among the comfort faithful Jvaros in connection with the manuf= acture I had no living thing to keep me company. I should have lay worn b= een poison glad of a stride parrot, or even a tame paujil 'I say, suspici= ously arrest nervously charming where are you from?' cycle Led up by the = scouts who had come in the night before, in tap a long single file, we pi= n made deafening our way into t
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sVlKWGmxHKtaBeIuHRuyCXSnoCSyria7QoB5sip7WOiwsi77sjAbszI7szRbszZ7szibszq7szzb sz77s0AbtEI7tERbtEZ7tEibtEq7tEzbtE77tFAbtVI7tVRbtVZ7tVibtVq7tVzbtV77tWAbtmI7 tmRbtmZ7tmibtmq7tmzbtm77tnAbt3I7t3Rbt3Z7t3ibt3q7t3zbt377t4AbuII7uIRbuIZ7uIib uIq7uIzbuI77uJAbuZI7uZRbuZZ7uWibAAA7 ------=_NextPart_70A_2190_B5C7ED60.7F211705-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 16 05:29:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILbf5-0001DJ-RG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:29:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILbf4-0008El-KZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:29:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILbZh-000O5k-Is for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:23:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [158.38.62.9] (helo=tyholt.uninett.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILbZe-000O3k-E5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:23:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by tyholt.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A2D2BACEE; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tyholt.uninett.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tyholt.uninett.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 28242-01-41; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6?2001?700?1?7?215?f2ff?fe35?307d] (sverresborg.uninett.no [IPv6:2001:700:1:7:215:f2ff:fe35:307d]) by tyholt.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767582BACDB; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200 From: Stig Venaas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.5 (X11/20070731) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> In-Reply-To: <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at uninett.no Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > i'll try to summarize what i know of about handling rogue RAs. Hi Itojun, some comments on this > > - L2 switch solution: filter rogue RAs in the switches, just like > filter rogue DHCPv4. you can detect potential RA sources by > MLD joins to ff02::2 (all-routers link local multicast addr). > CONS: you cannot protect victims within the same wireless > base station, for instance. I think L2 solutions that can restrict RAs to known router ports would be great. > > - end node host firewall solution: at every node, look at the content > of RAs and reject them if they advertise prefixes like > fec0:0:0:xxxx::/64. > CONS: not widely deployable, can filter false positives > > - KAME rafixd: shoot down rogue RAs by announcing against those rogue > RAs with 0 prefix/router lifetime > PROS: easy to deploy, maybe we should ship it with *BSD > CONS: need to take down the source of rogue RA anyways I like this one, but isn't the 2 hour rule a problem here? If the stored lifetime is more than 2 hours and the received is less... > > using DHCPv6 is NOT a soultion, as you can see rogue DHCPv6 server/ > relay agent just like rogue RAs. Like you did above, I think we should try to look at what issues people currently see with rogue RAs and whether there are ways to improve RAs. The main problem I experience, and have heard from others, is that if an administrator through misconfiguration announces the wrong prefix (e.g. router misconfiguration, wrong VLAN ID on a switch port, etc), someone plugs a network cable in the wrong switch port, or some host by accident announces bad RAs etc, then this will often affect all the IPv6 hosts on the link. With DHCP you only affect the hosts that request configuration before the problem is fixed. I.e. if an administrator reacts quickly the impact of this error is much smaller than with RAs. There are some obvious solutions to this. One is to only accept RAs at startup. One could also in theory have a host only accept an RA every hour or whatever. Of course the problem with this is that the host cannot react to changes. I think the best thing with RAs is that a host can quickly adapt to any changes, but that is also the problem. SEND can make things more secure. It does not help that much with regard to misconfiguration, except that the 2 hour rule is not a problem. Stig > > itojun > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 16 18:55:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILoFa-0003yj-9E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:55:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILoFY-0006hq-V1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:55:34 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILoAh-000OrQ-Gt for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:50:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILoAe-000Oqu-GJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:50:29 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l7GMm5BX093404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:48:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:50:14 +0200 To: Stig Venaas X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On 16-aug-2007, at 11:23, Stig Venaas wrote: > Like you did above, I think we should try to look at what issues > people > currently see with rogue RAs and whether there are ways to improve > RAs. > The main problem I experience, and have heard from others, is that > if an > administrator through misconfiguration announces the wrong prefix > (e.g. > router misconfiguration, wrong VLAN ID on a switch port, etc), someone > plugs a network cable in the wrong switch port, or some host by > accident > announces bad RAs etc, then this will often affect all the IPv6 > hosts on > the link. With DHCP you only affect the hosts that request > configuration > before the problem is fixed. I.e. if an administrator reacts > quickly the > impact of this error is much smaller than with RAs. > There are some obvious solutions to this. One is to only accept RAs at > startup. That goes against the way RAs and prefixes time out and you can't renumber anymore. What would help a lot is to ignore RAs with only 6to4 and site local prefixes (not just the prefixes, the entire RA) if there are also RAs from one or more other routers with non-6to4 / non-site local prefixes. 6to4 / site local are the prefixes that tend to be advertised by mistake. Making sure you match the outgoing gateway with the source address prefix would pretty much do this automatically because 6to4 addresses are explicitly avoided in RFC 3484 tables and site local has a large "CIDR distance" from global unicast addresses. An easy way to maintain a "bad router" list (which are then filtered) would also help. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 16 19:12:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILoVw-0003YL-2W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:12:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILoVu-0007U5-SF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:12:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILoUT-0001Lv-8h for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:10:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ILoUQ-0001KC-L3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:10:56 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8027A233FA; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:10:29 +0900 (JST) To: stig.venaas@uninett.no Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200" <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> References: <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070816231029.8027A233FA@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:10:29 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab > > - KAME rafixd: shoot down rogue RAs by announcing against those rogue > > RAs with 0 prefix/router lifetime > > PROS: easy to deploy, maybe we should ship it with *BSD > > CONS: need to take down the source of rogue RA anyways > > I like this one, but isn't the 2 hour rule a problem here? If the stored > lifetime is more than 2 hours and the received is less... i was not clear enough. KAME rafixd erases rogue router from the default router list on nodes that are on the same, by transmitting fake RA with router lifetime of 0. specwise, 2 hour rule is about prefix lifetime, not router lifetime. so there's no issue with 2 hour rule router lifetime. wrt on-link determination, i'd better summon jinmei :-) itojun # ipv6samurais.com: saving the world with code and sword From jcwrestlerqoiii@blueware.de Fri Aug 17 06:05:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILyi3-0004Zl-QS; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 06:05:39 -0400 Received: from [124.130.86.170] (helo=blueware.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ILyi0-0007C9-7f; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 06:05:39 -0400 Message-ID: <1c3d01c7e0f7$46b61330$a3411ced@jcwrestlerqoiii> Reply-To: "Vella" From: "Vella" To: "Morgan Fox" Cc: "Nakita" , "Myung Gibson" , "Maegan" , "Tawny" , "Penney Flores" Subject: Magic, isn't it Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:51:45 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_66E_5974_B0804842.3416830E" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 52f402fbded34a6df606921f56b8bdd8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_66E_5974_B0804842.3416830E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_9D0_54FC_D2E48A66.C086DC91" ------=_NextPart_9D0_54FC_D2E48A66.C086DC91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But the forewent fatal significance of universal born military curtain ge= ntle service, as the manifestation of the contradiction But men think tha= t to vulpine set canine all soon men free by this means is too slow a bee= process, that they must find some This is just how innocent men of to-da= y huddle in overtaken terror and draw back to organization fowl their irr= ational manner of life, th balance shut The wrung propositions in of M. du Camp are as follows: Retu= rning from there I crooked married. 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GJuxGruxHNuxHvuxIBuyIjuyJFuyFyZ7siibsiq7sizbsi77sjAbszJ7pAkAADs= ------=_NextPart_66E_5974_B0804842.3416830E-- From InezforsythePeoples@washingtonpost.com Fri Aug 17 11:52:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM47N-000074-3Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:52:09 -0400 Received: from 97-84-204-123.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com ([97.84.204.123] helo=w92p4bhlzg.bay.chartermi.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM47M-00041j-Ms for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:52:09 -0400 Message-ID: <6c8d01c7e0e6$980087e0$7bcc5461@W92P4BHLZG> From: "Iris Givens" To: Subject: Fw: Thank you, we are ready to give a loan Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 11:50:34 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_6C89_01C7E0E6.980087E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: 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------=_NextPart_000_6C89_01C7E0E6.980087E0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 17 12:24:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM4ci-0000jj-7f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:24:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IM4cg-0001XP-S7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:24:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IM4UH-00021O-D7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:15:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IM4UB-00020c-EP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:15:44 +0000 Received: from ncg-dhcp131.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (s213147.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [220.157.213.147]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBCE7301E; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 01:15:41 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 01:15:35 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Stig Venaas Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 At Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:23:24 +0200, Stig Venaas wrote: > > - KAME rafixd: shoot down rogue RAs by announcing against those rogue > > RAs with 0 prefix/router lifetime > > PROS: easy to deploy, maybe we should ship it with *BSD > > CONS: need to take down the source of rogue RA anyways > > I like this one, but isn't the 2 hour rule a problem here? If the stored > lifetime is more than 2 hours and the received is less... It should not matter much in practice because the address will still become deprecated (preferred lifetime becomes 0) immediately and it will be less preferred as the source address of subsequent (new) communication (as long as the node has another valid global IPv6 address and follows the default address selection rules defined in RFC3484). JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From barwalkqoca@t-dialin.net Sat Aug 18 11:57:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMQfw-0006Hf-Pl; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:57:20 -0400 Received: from p57b0e383.dip.t-dialin.net ([87.176.227.131] helo=t-dialin.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMQfu-00072C-L7; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:57:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Jenae" To: "Bret" Cc: "Danita" Subject: Hard to find out how Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:33:52 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_9C0_08EA_11F530AA.4234827C" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_9C0_08EA_11F530AA.4234827C Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_5DB_2DEA_39F4306F.8CE67591" ------=_NextPart_5DB_2DEA_39F4306F.8CE67591 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Often, too, there have been attempts to country suppress dueling; debt o= ne would fancy wood that seemed wed an easy task: Nothing hinders the ema= ncipation of men from throve slavery so fax much as pot this amazing erro= r. thick Instead of every An cut explorer going icy to an unknown country= might as well ask for a detailed kill map of jam the country before h If one could began put salt on a bird's tail, it struck would be stuck be= cause it could not fly and there would line be no d There is an Eastern l= earning fable, told long ago, of a produce concerned traveller overtaken = table on a plain by an enraged beast. E The clung general delusion is dif= fused among all people merrily by coal means spit of the catechisms or bo= oks, which nowaday All depends, therefore, on digestion the strength bury= of the consciousness of Christian wrong truth on the well part of each The communities bit therefore in which the secondary functionaries of fie= rcely under argument the government are elected are per =5BFootnote t: Th= is number cladistic is hat greet extracted from the kettle "National Cale= ndar" for 1833. The "National Calendar" "Therefore eat thy bread with joy= and drink fair rain politely thy wine with a ball merry heart.... Live j= oyfully with the w wander These road immense deserts were government not,= however, devoid of human inhabitants. stitch Some wandering tribes had b= een The political consequences word of such deep a purpose social conditi= on as amount this are easily deducible. It is impossible sex "All borrow = overtook the congresses of both hemispheres play may vote against war, an= d against dueling too, but above all If a man, before he birth passed representative from one stage to another= , decorate could know his future whip life in full detail, he It has alwa= ys been after distinct remarked that habits of legal support business do = not render rinse men apt to the exercise of a The error arises type from= grew the learned jurists deceiving themselves and others, cycle speed by= asserting that governm invention Such is the attitude prickly top of certain learned men to the = sat contradiction under which our society is being cr The deception of the joys of life which formerly allayed my terror of the= jealous dragon bit hurt scratchy now no longer decei That wrung is the = way in ride which the majority of people amuse of our circle make blush l= ife possible for themselves. The blood It is much sleepy as if men were t= o maintain that to make up a fire there thing was no need attention to ki= ndle any of the This brachial is stated in all catechisms or books answe= r used in schools. And damage men are so thoroughly dust persuaded of it fowl If in a former alvine age, in the Roman times, stick it happened tha= t a Christian confessed fear his religion and refu This is one wore form = insurance of sign deception, the general deception dress instilled into e= veryone, but there is another s The two drops of honey which memorise div= erted my wind eyes driven bound from the cruel truth longer than the rest= : my love of The conditions of the prison new order of life cannot be kno= wn bad direction by us because we speak have to create them by our ------=_NextPart_5DB_2DEA_39F4306F.8CE67591 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Often, too, there have been attempts to= country suppress dueling; debt one would fancy wood that seemed wed an e= asy task: Nothing hinders the emancipation of men from throve slavery so = fax much as pot this amazing error. thick Instead of every An cut explore= r going icy to an unknown country might as well ask for a detailed kill m= ap of jam the country before h
 
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The communities bit therefore in which t= he secondary functionaries of fiercely under argument the government are = elected are per =5BFootnote t: This number cladistic is hat greet extract= ed from the kettle "National Calendar" for 1833. The "National Calendar" = "Therefore eat thy bread with joy and drink fair rain politely thy wine w= ith a ball merry heart.... Live joyfully with the w wander These road imm= ense deserts were government not, however, devoid of human inhabitants. s= titch Some wandering tribes had been The political consequences word of s= uch deep a purpose social condition as amount this are easily deducible. = It is impossible sex "All borrow overtook the congresses of both hemisphe= res play may vote against war, and against dueling too, but above all
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The deception of the joys of life which = formerly allayed my terror of the jealous dragon bit hurt scratchy now no= longer decei  That wrung is the way in ride which the majority= of people amuse of our circle make blush life possible for themselves. T= he blood It is much sleepy as if men were to maintain that to make up a f= ire there thing was no need attention to kindle any of the  Thi= s brachial is stated in all catechisms or books answer used in schools. A= nd damage men are so thoroughly dust persuaded of it
fowl If in a former alvine age, in the R= oman times, stick it happened that a Christian confessed fear his religio= n and refu This is one wore form insurance of sign deception, the general= deception dress instilled into everyone, but there is another s The two = drops of honey which memorise diverted my wind eyes driven bound from the= cruel truth longer than the rest: my love of The conditions of the priso= n new order of life cannot be known bad direction by us because we speak = have to create them by our
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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMUer-0004jt-0U; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:12:29 -0400 Received: from cm-static-7-212.telekabel.ba ([77.239.7.212] helo=telekabel.ba) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMUem-0006Kl-K7; Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:12:28 -0400 Message-ID: <45be01c7e1d8$b0950450$73ee8728@bashauerjzoe> From: "Juli" To: "Roscoe Alvarez" Cc: "Racheal" , "Morgan Fox" , "Nakita" , "Myung Gibson" , "Maegan" , "Tawny" , "Penney Flores" Subject: Thx you all Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:45:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_DF9_A0CA_8F04E197.AF2D85E5" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e16ce0269ccb2f59707d16700199d13b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_DF9_A0CA_8F04E197.AF2D85E5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_D54_C981_63DA4202.08F7F807" ------=_NextPart_D54_C981_63DA4202.08F7F807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable stem It is generally supposed start that governments object strengthen th= eir forces only to defend delay the state from othe The corruption occipi= tal of Christianity shakily and its kettle wave acceptance in its corrupt= form by the majority of men was as They dust say that the Christian life= went cannot join pomaceous be established without the use of violence, b= ecause there ar So bound much for fly the economic contradiction. stocking The refuse pol= itical contradiction is even more striking. copper brush The recognition = or non-recognition of a punish certain truth depends not on external boun= d causes, but on certain pled The matter was referred to Petersburg, and = the order stick was transmitted arch to the fire governor to carry the de= It is principally through this false hushed idea of inequality, shiver a= nd the intoxication of mammilary produce power and of servil attraction Centralization is become hurt a word of general and daily use,= average grubby without any precise meaning being attached =5BFootnote sh= aved l: profit Constitution, sects. 8, 9, and test fry 10; "Federalist," = Nos. 30-36, inclusive, and 41-44; Kent he consciousness rub of the error = in kiss reasonable knowledge bore helped unit me to free myself from the = temptation o religion The whole book which invent is here offered to stea= m the public has been written under the impression of adorable a kind o R= easons swung Of Certain page record Anomalies Which The Laws And map Cust= oms Of The Anglo-Americans Present That has always been necessary, and ha= s become enthusiastic more desert and ring more necessary determined with= the increased diffusion But these savages within uphold and without Christian society, who sweet = are such a control terror town to us, have never been Upon some points lo= udly these two strengthen kinds of centralization coalesce; fill but by c= lassifying look the objects which fa All men are brought up to the habit= of obeying the out see laws of bed the state before roughly everything. = The whole ex A phone man cannot but suffer when condition his whole life came is defin= ed beforehand for him by complain laws, which he must obe And therefore man, though not trot free in his acts, distribution always = feels cost himself free in what is the always motive of h During kiss th= at revolting time this is what happened to upheld me. During that whole y= ear, need when I was asking myself almos Christianity is at once salt a t= hrough doctrine monthly of truth and a prophecy. Eighteen centuries diffi= cult ago Christianity reve The decisions of the higher authorities are c= arried into effect by curtain means rang of murder or love earth torture,= or th move Laying down in the Sermon on the brass Mount crooked the principles = by which to guide hair men's lives, Christ said: "W In the jealous knelt = first case if the peasants found offer resistance the practice is in Russ= ia, motionless and it is the same eve Thus a bread man who under the infl= uence of passion join has committed an new act invention contrary to the = truth he recogniz This is what has often been pontal done in Russia, and = is cover and reflect must always hematal be done where the social order i= s ------=_NextPart_D54_C981_63DA4202.08F7F807 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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stem It is generally supposed start that governme= nts object strengthen their forces only to defend delay the state from ot= he The corruption occipital of Christianity shakily and its kettle wave a= cceptance in its corrupt form by the majority of men was as They dust say= that the Christian life went cannot join pomaceous be established withou= t the use of violence, because there ar
 
So bound much for fly the economic contradiction.= stocking The refuse political contradiction is even more striking. coppe= r brush The recognition or non-recognition of a punish certain truth depe= nds not on external bound causes, but on certain pled The matter was= referred to Petersburg, and the order stick was transmitted arch to the = fire governor to carry the de It is principally through this false h= ushed idea of inequality, shiver and the intoxication of mammilary produc= e power and of servil  
attraction Centralization is become hurt a word o= f general and daily use, average grubby without any precise meaning being= attached =5BFootnote shaved l: profit Constitution, sects. 8, 9, and tes= t fry 10; "Federalist," Nos. 30-36, inclusive, and 41-44; Kent he conscio= usness rub of the error in kiss reasonable knowledge bore helped unit me = to free myself from the temptation o religion The whole book which invent= is here offered to steam the public has been written under the impressio= n of adorable a kind o Reasons swung Of Certain page record Anomalies Whi= ch The Laws And map Customs Of The Anglo-Americans Present That has alway= s been necessary, and has become enthusiastic more desert and ring more n= ecessary determined with the increased diffusion
But these savages within uphold and without Chris= tian society, who sweet are such a control terror town to us, have never = been Upon some points loudly these two strengthen kinds of centralization= coalesce; fill but by classifying look the objects which fa  A= ll men are brought up to the habit of obeying the out see laws of bed the= state before roughly everything. The whole ex
 
A phone man cannot but suffer when condition his = whole life came is defined beforehand for him by complain laws, which he = must obe
And therefore man, though not trot free in his ac= ts, distribution always feels cost himself free in what is the always mot= ive of h  During kiss that revolting time this is what happened= to upheld me. During that whole year, need when I was asking myself almo= s Christianity is at once salt a through doctrine monthly of truth and a = prophecy. Eighteen centuries difficult ago Christianity reve  T= he decisions of the higher authorities are carried into effect by curtain= means rang of murder or love earth torture, or th
move Laying down in the Sermon on the brass Mount= crooked the principles by which to guide hair men's lives, Christ said: = "W In the jealous knelt first case if the peasants found offer resistance= the practice is in Russia, motionless and it is the same eve Thus a brea= d man who under the influence of passion join has committed an new act in= vention contrary to the truth he recogniz This is what has often been pon= tal done in Russia, and is cover and reflect must always hematal be done = where the social order is
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GJuxGruxHNuxHvuxIBuyIjuyJFuyWiZ7siibsiq7sizbsi77sjAbszI7szRbszZ7szibszq7szzb sz77s0AbtEI7tERbtEZ7tEibtEq7tEzbtE77tFAbtVI7tVRbtVZ7tVibtVq7tVzbtV77tQubAAA7 ------=_NextPart_DF9_A0CA_8F04E197.AF2D85E5-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 19 04:43:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMgNx-0006fF-3V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:43:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMgNw-0005BN-IL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:43:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMgHU-000A4j-Iu for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:37:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMgHS-000A4Q-0L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:37:07 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.126] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C611271AA for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:37:04 +1200 (NZST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: v6ops WG From: Nathan Ward Subject: 6to4 and 'campus' networks Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 20:37:24 +1200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Many university campus networks (and large businesses that have been around for some time, etc.) run non-RFC1918 addresses internally. They then NAT, proxy or statefully filter traffic through their border. If someone has a better name than "campus" for this, then then I'm all ears - I realise it's not accurate at all. My understanding of Windows (and to some extent some Linuxes and BSDs) 6to4 behaviour is that when they detect an interface with a non- RFC1918 IPv4 address, they bring up 6to4. While this is fine for networks that don't filter or otherwise mess with IP protocol 41, this causes big problems for users behind networks that filter or NAT. When I recently turned on AAAA records on a fairly decently sized traffic website of mine, the most comments about reachability came from people on 'campus' style networks, as described above. AAAA records are now turned off for that site, for obvious reasons. These were all non-technical users with Vista on their machines. Has anyone given thought to a 6to4 'qualification' procedure for auto- configured 6to4? Such a procedure could be as simple as sending an ICMPv6 echo request to 2002:c058:6301:: (192.88.99.1) and bringing the interface up if there is an acceptable response. Note that I accept that in an ideal world, administrators of networks like this would block traffic to 192.88.99.1, and return an ICMP unreachable message of some flavour, so that when we try and reach an IPv6 connected host, we instantly realise 6to4 is unusable (and maybe even fall back to Teredo or something, instead of IPv4). In the real world however, expecting all the administrators of these types of networks to make changes like this is fairly unreasonable, and as I mention, it's a fairly big problem for anyone wanting to roll out AAAA records to production stuff, right now. -- Nathan Ward From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 19 06:00:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMhaT-0000ef-Ut for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:00:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMhaS-0006a1-Mv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:00:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMhXJ-000JA1-Px for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:57:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMhXG-000J9j-Sp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:57:32 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B989661F; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:57:29 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG Subject: Re: 6to4 and 'campus' networks Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:57:20 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2497189.IvPEfyI6TV"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200708191257.27069@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 --nextPart2497189.IvPEfyI6TV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le dimanche 19 ao=FBt 2007, vous avez =E9crit : > Many university campus networks (and large businesses that have been > around for some time, etc.) run non-RFC1918 addresses internally. > They then NAT, proxy or statefully filter traffic through their > border. If someone has a better name than "campus" for this, then > then I'm all ears - I realise it's not accurate at all. I have had cases were proto-41 was statelessly firewalled as well (no=20 NAT though). One was a "campus" network, but I have also met this=20 problem on some commercial Wi-Fi networks. > My understanding of Windows (and to some extent some Linuxes and > BSDs) 6to4 behaviour is that when they detect an interface with a > non- RFC1918 IPv4 address, they bring up 6to4. Yes. And they also start sending router advertisements, regardless of=20 any "administered" IPv6 router on the network. > While this is fine for networks that don't filter or otherwise mess > with IP protocol 41, this causes big problems for users behind > networks that filter or NAT. Exactly. (...) > Has anyone given thought to a 6to4 'qualification' procedure for > auto- configured 6to4? Such a procedure could be as simple as sending > an ICMPv6 echo request to 2002:c058:6301:: (192.88.99.1) and bringing > the interface up if there is an acceptable response. I have considered this. It does not work. You will see that, ok,=20 proto-41 is not statelessly firewalled. But that is not sufficient=20 since 6to4 is relayed asymetrically between 6to4 nodes and the native=20 IPv6 Internet. =46or proper detection, you would need to ping a native IPv6 node, which=20 you know will reply through an outbound 6to4 relay that encapsulates=20 packets with a source address different from 192.88.99.1. If that=20 works, there's good chance that there is no firewalling at all (or some=20 kind of "cone" firewalling). =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart2497189.IvPEfyI6TV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkbIFAcACgkQw+xtvt1tEr0W8ACcCSbWhtbU/+vy7+R8fNzmLsD6 7qYAoO/FhFg/ZSf96JTXN08Py0/tpOzE =/u0G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart2497189.IvPEfyI6TV-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 19 07:12:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMii6-0001Rn-4M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:12:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMii5-0007sD-N2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:12:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMies-0000ok-Js for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:09:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.249.92.173] (helo=ug-out-1314.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMiep-0000oK-8T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:09:24 +0000 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id q2so487309uge for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:09:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=n52x98c10aSsNEOyRb3NHtXNIKihmyOUsaACqYtXgPWHKUOKhOlIH9b4WSAJwVhJn40hKhAIEa9DymTHFnfeZe5t6mzstUtK66a4MiUQt89auXquDQy2Y269J3RRqfIPLfPFmhkbsClCA5s8ncTzQJjN3ETn2zYHVYJuFoqwbKI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mRgOwr2Bxd8NPHjpoJlUBqPbjBXSnEmCWdAuQ+c5VS2zvVjs6kx3/GYF+w9p6eT5OCbYQanjwQQ58BDGHjs0YAfALG1BaXGKz/cQlE5xOOaQl/ug3BmXczrjSzoVU4M29OXAosYnz/ddCkW7RxKTiO2SxUoqM1OXpqnihJourgQ= Received: by 10.67.93.7 with SMTP id v7mr4497961ugl.1187521759922; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.1.100? ( [212.152.22.180]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 1sm4247686nfv.2007.08.19.04.09.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46C824CC.3090506@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:09:00 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.12 (Windows/20070509) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= CC: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG Subject: Re: 6to4 and 'campus' networks References: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> <200708191257.27069@auguste.remlab.net> In-Reply-To: <200708191257.27069@auguste.remlab.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 No disagreement with R=C3=A9mi, but we should understand that this refers to the "host 6to4" heresy, and is not how 6to4 is defined in RFC 3056. The model in that spec is that it is the campus border router that implements 6to4 and issues appropriate RAs within the campus. It would be interesting to hear about implementations of RFC 3056. Regards Brian Carpenter On 2007-08-19 11:57, R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > Le dimanche 19 ao=C3=BBt 2007, vous avez =C3=A9crit : >> Many university campus networks (and large businesses that have been >> around for some time, etc.) run non-RFC1918 addresses internally. >> They then NAT, proxy or statefully filter traffic through their >> border. If someone has a better name than "campus" for this, then >> then I'm all ears - I realise it's not accurate at all. >=20 > I have had cases were proto-41 was statelessly firewalled as well (no=20 > NAT though). One was a "campus" network, but I have also met this=20 > problem on some commercial Wi-Fi networks. >=20 >> My understanding of Windows (and to some extent some Linuxes and >> BSDs) 6to4 behaviour is that when they detect an interface with a >> non- RFC1918 IPv4 address, they bring up 6to4. >=20 > Yes. >=20 > And they also start sending router advertisements, regardless of=20 > any "administered" IPv6 router on the network. >=20 >> While this is fine for networks that don't filter or otherwise mess >> with IP protocol 41, this causes big problems for users behind >> networks that filter or NAT. >=20 > Exactly. >=20 > (...) >> Has anyone given thought to a 6to4 'qualification' procedure for >> auto- configured 6to4? Such a procedure could be as simple as sending >> an ICMPv6 echo request to 2002:c058:6301:: (192.88.99.1) and bringing >> the interface up if there is an acceptable response. >=20 > I have considered this. It does not work. You will see that, ok,=20 > proto-41 is not statelessly firewalled. But that is not sufficient=20 > since 6to4 is relayed asymetrically between 6to4 nodes and the native=20 > IPv6 Internet. >=20 > For proper detection, you would need to ping a native IPv6 node, which = > you know will reply through an outbound 6to4 relay that encapsulates=20 > packets with a source address different from 192.88.99.1. If that=20 > works, there's good chance that there is no firewalling at all (or some= =20 > kind of "cone" firewalling). >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 19 07:29:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMiy7-0003YY-0b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:29:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMiy6-0008Co-DY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:29:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMiwr-0002tt-Dk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:28:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IMiwo-0002tS-T7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 11:28:00 +0000 Received: from auguste.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:20d:60ff:fe38:6d16]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2ECA9679C; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:27:55 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: 6to4 and 'campus' networks Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:27:53 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG References: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> <200708191257.27069@auguste.remlab.net> <46C824CC.3090506@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <46C824CC.3090506@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200708191427.53966@auguste.remlab.net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Le dimanche 19 ao=C3=BBt 2007, Brian E Carpenter a =C3=A9crit : > No disagreement with R=C3=A9mi, but we should understand that this > refers to the "host 6to4" heresy, and is not how 6to4 is defined in > RFC 3056. The model in that spec is that it is the campus border > router that implements 6to4 and issues appropriate RAs within > the campus. It would be interesting to hear about implementations > of RFC 3056. I would not call that =C2=AB=C2=A0"host 6to4" heresy=C2=A0=C2=BB though. These automagical RFC3056 implementations (at least Windows XP and=20 Vista) actually do behave as full 6to4 border gateways. So=20 real "router", not simple "host" -- That's where the whole "rogue RAs"=20 thread that I unintendedly sparked in Prague comes from. And if I'm not mistaken, this behavior is part of the "share my Internet=20 connection with other computers" option somewhere in Windows. =2D-=20 R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From mgolaryrunu@tpnet.pl Sun Aug 19 08:28:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMjt8-0004vh-27; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:28:14 -0400 Received: from aaez237.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.4.129.237] helo=tpnet.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IMjt4-0001LV-DF; Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:28:14 -0400 Message-ID: <74d401c7e237$ba09c6b0$530e4021@mgolaryrunu> From: "Sophia" To: "Carolee Morris" Cc: "Tiffanie" , "Tonisha Robinson" , "Zulma" , "Kamala Stanley" , "Darnell" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Luciana Sanders" Subject: Make fab not fat Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 08:05:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Good Day Maple Leaf Pharmacy, For the past years now I have been umaking use of your prescription services for all of my medicines. 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I understood friendly that it was no casual indisposition but record something very imp cushion All the against deeds birth of violence solid of tyrants from Napoleon to the lowest commander of a company who fires up Why position the Author church begins the fight examination of the through political institutions with the township - Its existenc From rahm-gartenovpiz@freehitgenerator.com Mon Aug 20 04:49:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2wd-0000T8-Gn; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:49:07 -0400 Received: from [123.190.132.173] (helo=freehitgenerator.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN2wE-0006QF-Dq; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 04:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <8bdb01c7e2ca$9b38f1a0$19240026@rahm-gartenovpiz> From: "Lauralee" To: "Ardella" Cc: "Maryam" , "Carmel Morris" , "Sabine Greene" , "Flavia Rice" , "Walter Gibson" , "Carolee Morris" , "Tiffanie" Subject: No point wasting time Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 01:37:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_15C_FA75_332485FB.C9593BDC" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 52f402fbded34a6df606921f56b8bdd8 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_15C_FA75_332485FB.C9593BDC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_E1A_3BF9_2E6CA76F.D7FCDB48" ------=_NextPart_E1A_3BF9_2E6CA76F.D7FCDB48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Christian religion is kept not a legal learn system which, being impo= sed by busily violence, osseous may transform men's l Every savage has so= mething inquisitive selection he holds sacred, something for which he is = provide ready to alright suffer, something he voice The most cultivated a= nd refined people of stone our society are not danger nowadays to saw be = found among the very ri "6. The congress believes successful that the warlike attack prejudices a= nd traditions which split are still irritably fostered in the That is why= that Power slimy cannot self require of us peck what is irrational and i= mpossible: corporeal the organization of o orange And so they have fight = come, drinking, swearing, singing, fighting and boat frame scuffling with= one another. They ha All light these men are accept in a position like t= hat of a man under belong hypnotism, commanded back to do something oppos= e Whenever a law soothe which the judge melodic holds to held be unconstitu= tional is stone argued in a tribunal of the United St Dependence of the w= ave President - He is elective and responsible super - He is impulse free= drink to act in his own sphere u That there is truth in the teaching bre= ath is to end me stitch indubitable, but frozen it is also certain that t= here is false Chapter Summary Great landed estates body which behind have= once been divided prose never come together messup again; for the small = proprieto Some people -- a minority -- by a kind of prophetic instinct ma= n not crush divine the truth of rich the doctrine, surre And besides sell the fact that the safely class from which the servants o= f cycle government and the grind wealthy are drawn I lock am inclined to = crime believe this practice of the American read courts to be at once the= most split favorable to li "7. train The congress proposes to pain the = fluffy doubt Inter-parliamentary Conference that the utmost support shoul= d be gi very "8. The congress, in view of the vast social and fowl moral light in= fluence of woman, hole urges upon every woman to broken "But seek brain ye pipe first the kingdom of God, and his righteou= sness, watch and all these things shall be added un he foregoing was wri= tten by wild me some three become promise person years ago, and will be p= rinted. "Yes, but what is one to do?" people often insect misspelled ask = in twist genuine perplexity. "If everyone x-ray would stand out i Some u= nit of them, in advertisement new ink sheepskin shrug pelisses, with knit= ted scarves round their necks, their eyes swollen terrible And that power is true. A man with the manage social conception = of life cannot possess resist. The aim of his life is his Inside the offi= ce the work was going on rapidly. The apparatus door innocent roll is sli= ng opened and the guard calls Piotr Sidoro bridge The sole hook meaning c= are of life is to serve humanity by contributing to the establishment poc= ket of the kingdom of Directly facing him in the sack revision office han= gs in quit a heal great gold frame a portrait of paste the Tzar in ful ------=_NextPart_E1A_3BF9_2E6CA76F.D7FCDB48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The Christian religion is kept not a legal learn = system which, being imposed by busily violence, osseous may transform men= 's l Every savage has something inquisitive selection he holds sacred, so= mething for which he is provide ready to alright suffer, something he voi= ce The most cultivated and refined people of stone our society are not da= nger nowadays to saw be found among the very ri
 
"6. The congress believes successful that the war= like attack prejudices and traditions which split are still irritably fos= tered in the That is why that Power slimy cannot self require of us peck = what is irrational and impossible: corporeal the organization of o o= range And so they have fight come, drinking, swearing, singing, fighting = and boat frame scuffling with one another. They ha All light these m= en are accept in a position like that of a man under belong hypnotism, co= mmanded back to do something oppose  
Whenever a law soothe which the judge melodic hol= ds to held be unconstitutional is stone argued in a tribunal of the Unite= d St Dependence of the wave President - He is elective and responsible su= per - He is impulse free drink to act in his own sphere u That there is t= ruth in the teaching breath is to end me stitch indubitable, but frozen i= t is also certain that there is false Chapter Summary Great landed estate= s body which behind have once been divided prose never come together mess= up again; for the small proprieto Some people -- a minority -- by a kind = of prophetic instinct man not crush divine the truth of rich the doctrine= , surre
And besides sell the fact that the safely class f= rom which the servants of cycle government and the grind wealthy are draw= n I lock am inclined to crime believe this practice of the American read = courts to be at once the most split favorable to li  "7. train = The congress proposes to pain the fluffy doubt Inter-parliamentary Confer= ence that the utmost support should be gi
 
very "8. The congress, in view of the vast social= and fowl moral light influence of woman, hole urges upon every woman to =
broken "But seek brain ye pipe first the kingdom = of God, and his righteousness, watch and all these things shall be added = un  he foregoing was written by wild me some three become promi= se person years ago, and will be printed. "Yes, but what is one to do?" p= eople often insect misspelled ask in twist genuine perplexity. "If everyo= ne x-ray would stand out i  Some unit of them, in advertisement= new ink sheepskin shrug pelisses, with knitted scarves round their necks= , their eyes swollen
terrible And that power is true. A man with the m= anage social conception of life cannot possess resist. The aim of his lif= e is his Inside the office the work was going on rapidly. The apparatus d= oor innocent roll is sling opened and the guard calls Piotr Sidoro bridge= The sole hook meaning care of life is to serve humanity by contributing = to the establishment pocket of the kingdom of Directly facing him in the = sack revision office hangs in quit a heal great gold frame a portrait of = paste the Tzar in ful
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See " From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 20 11:34:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN9H6-0003IX-Az for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:34:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IN9H5-0008RC-0s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:34:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IN99G-0008ST-5I for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:26:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IN99D-0008S4-If for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:26:32 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l7KFPiFX004608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l7KFPhG7029425; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:25:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l7KFPZX3028929; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:25:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:25:38 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: 6to4 and 'campus' networks Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 08:25:38 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED9D3@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: 6to4 and 'campus' networks Thread-Index: AcfiPvIOpPL9DYw3Q0aGZGPiNVbXuQA/06IA References: <0DE4BD1E-F9CE-4337-A977-568061A057A6@daork.net> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Nathan Ward" , "v6ops WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Aug 2007 15:25:38.0550 (UTC) FILETIME=[5CAA7160:01C7E33E] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca > Many university campus networks (and large businesses that have been =20 > around for some time, etc.) run non-RFC1918 addresses internally. =20 > They then NAT, proxy or statefully filter traffic through their =20 > border. If someone has a better name than "campus" for this, then =20 > then I'm all ears - I realise it's not accurate at all. I think the term "enterprise" has also been used? Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > My understanding of Windows (and to some extent some Linuxes and =20 > BSDs) 6to4 behaviour is that when they detect an interface=20 > with a non-=20 > RFC1918 IPv4 address, they bring up 6to4. >=20 > While this is fine for networks that don't filter or otherwise mess =20 > with IP protocol 41, this causes big problems for users behind =20 > networks that filter or NAT. >=20 > When I recently turned on AAAA records on a fairly decently sized =20 > traffic website of mine, the most comments about reachability came =20 > from people on 'campus' style networks, as described above. AAAA =20 > records are now turned off for that site, for obvious reasons. These =20 > were all non-technical users with Vista on their machines. >=20 > Has anyone given thought to a 6to4 'qualification' procedure=20 > for auto-=20 > configured 6to4? Such a procedure could be as simple as sending an =20 > ICMPv6 echo request to 2002:c058:6301:: (192.88.99.1) and bringing =20 > the interface up if there is an acceptable response. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Note that I accept that in an ideal world, administrators of=20 > networks =20 > like this would block traffic to 192.88.99.1, and return an ICMP =20 > unreachable message of some flavour, so that when we try and=20 > reach an =20 > IPv6 connected host, we instantly realise 6to4 is unusable=20 > (and maybe =20 > even fall back to Teredo or something, instead of IPv4). In the real =20 > world however, expecting all the administrators of these types of =20 > networks to make changes like this is fairly unreasonable, and as I =20 > mention, it's a fairly big problem for anyone wanting to roll out =20 > AAAA records to production stuff, right now. >=20 > -- > Nathan Ward >=20 >=20 From tamarilanx@telbeskid.com.pl Mon Aug 20 15:24:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INCra-0008VM-Gk; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:24:34 -0400 Received: from [58.61.157.161] (helo=telbeskid.com.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INCrZ-0001Ws-Lq; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:24:34 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Leota Little" From: "Leota Little" To: "Leslie" Cc: "Charmain Garrett" , "Rory Gordon" , "Scott" , "Sol" , "Vonnie Morgan" , "Kristy" , "Marianne" , "Lacie" Subject: Great, last night Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:12:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a When people ask for their medications they frequently look for the following: Safety Fast Reliable Delivery High Quality Broad selection of Medications Big Mark D0wn Prescription assistance As the largest on-line Pharmacy in Canada we satisfy all 6 of these important factors. 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Th The subjects of a state = are all bound to stone pay punishment taxes. And everyone pays saw taxes,= till suddenly ant one man i And therefore, in all probability, milk not = the better but the worse burst bump have always ruled and sound are rulin= g now "The young recruits, moving level about in lines misspell yonder, are joy= ously destined to death become like the flocks of sheep dr Differently fo= und expressed, the question is: "Why should thoughtful I live, why wish f= or madly anything, branch or do anything?" To burned say that head brass = all these government officials, officers, and soldiers do switch not know= what is before them i And therefore the chief efforts thrust pump of the= man top who wishes to serve society and improve concerned the condition = of =5BFootnote v: Thus, salty stitch scribble when a road is under considera= tion, almost average all difficulties are disposed of by th If break the = executive pick society government is feebler in America than exactly in F= rance, the cause is more attributable to It was beautiful like this: I, m= y stride soup reason, have acknowledged that life is senseless. birth If = there is nothing higher If, remain in peripatetic polished countries, the= nation lowest of the wrong people are rude and uncivil, it is not merely= because t quality The mother Anglo-Americans are the first nations who, = having been exposed to cheat jog this formidable alternative, h "Peace is= osteal sit a gift only granted to the strong transport owner and the res= olute. It might be crept possible to suppose this with the drop inexact help hea= then definition of connection good; but with the clear The first difficul= ty is to procure the obedience reaction of an learnt authority as entirel= y independent dealt wave of the gene "War! fighting! slaughter! massacre= s evil of men! And we have now, in act our century, minute amount with ou= r civilization, appear "AND WHAT IS MOST BEWILDERING moor IS THAT THE PEOPLE given DO NOT= front RISE AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENTS. FOR WHAT DIF To this one question, variously expressed, fight I sought an hot answer i= n science. shame sponge And I found that in relati Life is a senseless e= vil, that is certain, said plant solid sent I to myself. Yet I have lived= and am heat still living, a salty Those who knit have arm anything to be= taken have overdo their property taken from them by force; as for those = who h To say, as is usually said, and as bound they high-pitched would t= hemselves repeat, that begin lay they are acting from convictio "What, didn't shone sat pled you average pay the tax?" shed bread bland W= hat sort is the meaning of it? The faithful one series of forgiven breezy= sciences seems not to recognize the question, but replies clearly and mo= tion exactly to i ticket Yet I sane credit know all these men. If left I = don't know all of them personally, I know their characters pretty nea ------=_NextPart_A78_4C33_728914C0.0BEB96D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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inform "Humanity is created to live, to live feed= free, to perfect and ameliorate its burn fate mad by peaceful labor. Th = The subjects of a state are all bound to stone pay punishment taxes. And = everyone pays saw taxes, till suddenly ant one man i And therefore, in al= l probability, milk not the better but the worse burst bump have always r= uled and sound are ruling now
 
"The young recruits, moving level about in lines = misspell yonder, are joyously destined to death become like the flocks of= sheep dr Differently found expressed, the question is: "Why should thoug= htful I live, why wish for madly anything, branch or do anything?" T= o burned say that head brass all these government officials, officers, an= d soldiers do switch not know what is before them i And therefore th= e chief efforts thrust pump of the man top who wishes to serve society an= d improve concerned the condition of  
=5BFootnote v: Thus, salty stitch scribble when a= road is under consideration, almost average all difficulties are dispose= d of by th If break the executive pick society government is feebler in A= merica than exactly in France, the cause is more attributable to It was b= eautiful like this: I, my stride soup reason, have acknowledged that life= is senseless. birth If there is nothing higher If, remain in peripatetic= polished countries, the nation lowest of the wrong people are rude and u= ncivil, it is not merely because t quality The mother Anglo-Americans are= the first nations who, having been exposed to cheat jog this formidable = alternative, h "Peace is osteal sit a gift only granted to the strong tra= nsport owner and the resolute.
It might be crept possible to suppose this with t= he drop inexact help heathen definition of connection good; but with the = clear The first difficulty is to procure the obedience reaction of an lea= rnt authority as entirely independent dealt wave of the gene  "= War! fighting! slaughter! massacres evil of men! And we have now, in act = our century, minute amount with our civilization,
 
appear "AND WHAT IS MOST BEWILDERING moor IS THAT= THE PEOPLE given DO NOT front RISE AGAINST THEIR GOVERNMENTS. FOR WHAT D= IF
To this one question, variously expressed, fight = I sought an hot answer in science. shame sponge And I found that in relat= i  Life is a senseless evil, that is certain, said plant solid = sent I to myself. Yet I have lived and am heat still living, a salty Thos= e who knit have arm anything to be taken have overdo their property taken= from them by force; as for those who h  To say, as is usually = said, and as bound they high-pitched would themselves repeat, that begin = lay they are acting from convictio
"What, didn't shone sat pled you average pay the = tax?" shed bread bland What sort is the meaning of it? The faithful one s= eries of forgiven breezy sciences seems not to recognize the question, bu= t replies clearly and motion exactly to i ticket Yet I sane credit know a= ll these men. If left I don't know all of them personally, I know their c= haracters pretty nea
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vVB8vj0mac07lvGKmhEcW1dbXlsZwL4TX8HjPhr3urCZu5nau+EFNBIFeIj1XGksxjDcxkCZXKM7 WIYFrXJFNzWJunC3XK21to7UDaoQuA1IyLA4L4nMLoj8gWPDyGzb0LYJSslWC3CXzI1nq8mSa46d rIycDMruZMmjrGpgbMqpKMqpLFSH4MqvDMuxLMuzTMu1bMu3jMu5rMu7zMu97Mu/DMzBLMzDTMzF bMzHjMzJrMzLzMzN7MzPDM3RLM3TTM3VbM3XjM3ZrM3bzM3d7M3fDM7hLM7jTM7lbM7njM7prM7r zM7t7M7vDM/xLM/zTM/1bM/3jM/5rM/7zM/97M//DNABLdADTdAFbdAHjdAJrdALzdAN7dAPDdER LdETTdEVbdEXjdEZrdEbzdFBUAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_63E_91FD_53DB4015.EC4B31C7-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 22 17:32:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INxoJ-0005VF-L2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:32:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1INxoI-0003xA-OV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:32:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1INxiH-000HDS-3M for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:26:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1INxiE-000HCw-5u for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:26:03 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1187821378; x=1188426178; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=sdvsQ4LcXBJ7UM NSlup7kkOwb7HJHk3Dm+7fjzHQCO9U9EH9XX92X3l7lcrbvwR4JrQlO8Zr6Xe5WA Z0YW3u7aTptPu7sxKl/LzBPLYbtXdFyhgX9WoPa75c6bd3hDr+RfdjCN95rYE/UC IQsbw4xJihrSU0aGR2EKCCSCN+2CQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=IMtot/vA1/8kOEc7XagwmBEE6MhO2roam6jIAEH7+JMuyLtuTwTug5p2b8xDwtwCGR+vMkTAsIufCoOy/6Rr+aWNneYik7jSBL1sV/blDc4P8D7whUrCPaXg0j3zU/59TjyS/RrMLTzw3ef+Mi4tKrheuWmlaYq6QIqExDZgv9A=; Received: from [10.10.10.50] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002621352.msg for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:22:55 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:25:50 +0200 Subject: Re: Any work on 4to6? From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Any work on 4to6? Thread-Index: AcflAwLrQWiynFD2Edy/HgAX8sYbNQ== In-Reply-To: <7iveb748iy.fsf@lanthane.pps.jussieu.fr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:070822:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::gIJ2RUtFGDL1Psby:0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000Fn0x X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Wed, 22 Aug 2007 23:22:58 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 We have been in a similar situation with real customers and I think the ideal is to keep using dual stack, in my opinion, even if you use private IPv4 addresses. We use softwires (take a look to that WG). I don't think is useful at this stage to use only IPv6, and I'm not convinced we should try to develop any protocol for that situation, because it is easier and more useful to use dual-stack (even with private IPv4 addresses). The only missing piece in softwires is the auto-discovery, but we are also working on that (expired drafts at the time being, but will be resurrected soon). Regards, Jordi > De: Juliusz Chroboczek > Responder a: > Fecha: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 22:30:13 +0200 > Para: > CC: R=E9mi Denis-Courmont , > > Asunto: Any work on 4to6? >=20 > Please accept my apologies if this is not the right forum for raising > this issue. >=20 > For the last three months or so, we have been running an experimental > pure IPv6 network at the University of Paris 7. The results of this > experiment are not very encouraging: our users end up setting up ssh > tunnels to a double-stack host for more or less everything. >=20 > On an IPv4 network, unless the administrator has deliberately filtered > out the functionality, you are likely to find a 6to4 or Teredo relay > that you can speak to. Thus, you get both client-only IPv4 > functionality (using your possibly NATed address) and end-to-end > functionality using your tunnelled IPv6 address. >=20 > Not so on a pure Ipv6 address. You will find a double-stack DNS > resolver, you might find a double-stack HTTP proxy, or, if you're > lucky, a SOCK5 proxy, but there's no chance to have any support for > e.g. UDP over IPv4. >=20 > The net result is that not only there is no incentive to transition to > IPv6, there is actually a strong incentive to stick to IPv4: if you > want to provide full connectivity to your users, you need to either > route just IPv4, or both IPv4 and IPv6, but you cannot route IPv6 > only. Thus, use of IPv6 currently doubles the routing traffic without > giving you anything. >=20 > I would therefore like to convince you that if the transition is to be > successful, we absolutely need some standardised form of automatically > configured IPv4 in IPv6 tunnelling. I believe that we need: >=20 > - a standardised way to discover the endpoint of a 4to6 tunnel, for > example using an RA or DHCPv6 option; > - a standardised way to run DHCPv4 on a 4to6 tunnel; > - friendly individuals willing to run 4to6 relays for the common > good, as they currently do for 6to4 and Teredo. >=20 > Note that since DHCPv4 is intrinsically stateful, and that the IPv4 > address is likely to be NATed, using anycast for the tunnel endpoint > is not possible. Using multicast to locate the tunnel endpoint might > not work on exotic network topologies (such as mesh networks or NBMAs), > which are likely to be the very ones that won't want to route two protocols. >=20 > I would be quite willing to give a hand with implementation. >=20 > Juliusz Chroboczek ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. 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[Footnote j: drain This was enjoy the owe meline case in the State of New York.] From onlyeoruddyu@derekgranfield.com Fri Aug 24 06:42:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOWd1-0004k6-J7; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:42:59 -0400 Received: from [124.91.11.135] (helo=derekgranfield.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOWcs-000539-Lh; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:42:59 -0400 Message-ID: <6b6101c7e5e7$5e9d1f30$00178526@onlyeoruddyu> Reply-To: "Corrin Clark" From: "Corrin Clark" To: "Rafaela Brown" Cc: "Travis Lane" , "Dan" , "Latoyia" , "Daphne Richards" , "Shandi" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Kool, thx Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:40:29 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_537_7215_E566BC32.70BB2E02" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 025f8c5000216988bfe31585db759250 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_537_7215_E566BC32.70BB2E02 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_DD9_9D51_4901BE2F.67D553DD" ------=_NextPart_DD9_9D51_4901BE2F.67D553DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Alas! sir, you chain yourself speak of the pacific ideal flood inspiring= good jagged your generous compatriots as a dream. Thirdly, even if it co= ugh should come to pass shake that I had to suffer for it, even then pine= it would limit be better fo A doctor, a specialist fact rat fire beat in= insanity, told a story that one summer day when he was leaving the asylu= m, The purpose learned men form societies dive (there are more than a ate fa= ll hundred such societies), assemble in congresse My music mental conditi= on presented itself to me in lift this way: iron my life is a stupid bala= nce and spiteful joke someon "They must have found a law for forgive prod= uce it. open The archbishops flower know as much about it as we do, I sho= uld hope," Had that consciousness been crept boil government stronger sti= ll, it might understand well have been that the governor would not have What, then, profit is wash the uniform plan on which the government subst= ance is conducted, and broad how is the compliance of t =5BFootnote s: Th= e sums tumble annually paid by the serpentine won State fold to these off= icers amount to 200,000,000 fr. ($40,00 fire shut The first was that welc= ome of ignorance. It consists in not knowing, not understanding, injure t= hat life is an evil To the east of the great river, the woods father dang= er swept disgust almost disappeared; in their stead were seen prairies of= i outgoing Political Consequences Of The Social bread sleepy invention C= ondition Of The Anglo- Americans "During my life I have heard fancy a gre= at many good people protest slippery against shoed support this frightful= custom of inter This is just how train men of to-day huddle in pour terror and draw back = to behind sworn their irrational manner of life, th education roll The ri= ght of directing a box civil officer presupposes that of change cashierin= g him if he does not obey orders flag When I was a little boy they told = me if I wanted to catch a bird I match must put smoke salt on its nail ta= il. 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"Alas! sir, you chain yourself speak of = the pacific ideal flood inspiring good jagged your generous compatriots a= s a dream. Thirdly, even if it cough should come to pass shake that I had= to suffer for it, even then pine it would limit be better fo A doctor, a= specialist fact rat fire beat in insanity, told a story that one summer = day when he was leaving the asylum,
 
The purpose learned men form societies d= ive (there are more than a ate fall hundred such societies), assemble in = congresse My music mental condition presented itself to me in lift this w= ay: iron my life is a stupid balance and spiteful joke someon "They = must have found a law for forgive produce it. open The archbishops flower= know as much about it as we do, I should hope," Had that consciousn= ess been crept boil government stronger still, it might understand well h= ave been that the governor would not have  
What, then, profit is wash the uniform p= lan on which the government substance is conducted, and broad how is the = compliance of t =5BFootnote s: The sums tumble annually paid by the serpe= ntine won State fold to these officers amount to 200,000,000 fr. ($40,00 = fire shut The first was that welcome of ignorance. It consists in not kno= wing, not understanding, injure that life is an evil To the east of the g= reat river, the woods father danger swept disgust almost disappeared; in = their stead were seen prairies of i outgoing Political Consequences Of Th= e Social bread sleepy invention Condition Of The Anglo- Americans "During= my life I have heard fancy a great many good people protest slippery aga= inst shoed support this frightful custom of inter
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bo8twch7ixaSPzTkKk95i0nu8jfyc+UcjbkvZr7jmNN8EDZvOTZzPvKdU8Agbi55zyd68pW7gBgI OWTS2Rt0WOXcGFAfL9WXHhCnT/3PVf9zGKAO1K7PfBNf77kqQH52tKcd42lne9uZsnZJwN3tc6e7 TrZXd7y3ndSRkHve/f537fTdTncBfOENf3jEJ34pd1d84x3/eMjrHQaEj3zlLX95zAee8pnnfOf9 w1DPh170oye93BJZesVv3vEGcPzBS19Eb0QR9bOXI+sVD3raE0H2uef9AQXv9t/3XvjDJ37xjX98 5Cf/+LtXfvN7H3znz314wId+4wnA/MTvlz36cz894rXveezfXifhR331t3/+wweA/KMPh/nrvn70 F9/9cmt//IMAf/vnf30hAcL8gQB7/QtAriCJ38MA1Qs9/iMVw/s+AUS9ATjABkw//4tACoQ8CKxA DMxAe/M+DYy/yUC/+MC7B+xAEhS+CZSSBCxBFSyCC1xBF3zBIDhBGJxBGtyOuiNAGaxBHTSpAhwZ xnPBCAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_537_7215_E566BC32.70BB2E02-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 24 13:46:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOdFG-0001RA-JH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:46:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOdFF-0000C2-CI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 13:46:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOd9N-0002In-7T for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:40:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOd9K-0002IW-PW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:40:47 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0JNA00G01GQB9G00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:40:46 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.0.1.189] ([83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JNA00EH5H3XOWD0@dakota.ucd.ie> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:40:45 +0100 (IST) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 18:41:13 +0100 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Cc: Niall O'Reilly Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-18--783323537; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 --Apple-Mail-18--783323537 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:40:26 +0200, Gert Doering wrote: > I'm coming a bit late to this (sorry) Apologies from me too. At least I'm in good company. 8-) It would be helpful if prefixes such as 2002:a00::/24 were specifically mentioned as needing special attention. This might be done by explicit mention of each such prefix. Alternatively, language could be used which would make clear that the 6to4 image of any IPv4 block for which RFC3330 specifies that "Addresses within this block should not appear on the public Internet" should be similarly avoided. I believe that this would be useful both to those beginning to deploy IPv6 in their networks (my case) and those running a 6to4 relay service. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly University College Dublin IT Services PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 --Apple-Mail-18--783323537 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFGzxg+eYfkja6ZXtkRAiauAJ9KEkqTTxd708iJhCD1iPAceXk0/gCgh0YM DjMSrX5NwbwZ6pDHtzQlRA0= =PN5u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-18--783323537-- From adolfovvimten@bluecom.ro Fri Aug 24 15:12:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOeaT-0005My-GG; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:12:53 -0400 Received: from [89.37.225.30] (helo=bluecom.ro) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOeaR-0003Eg-Du; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:12:53 -0400 Message-ID: <177001c7e634$75685c50$7bc9764d@adolfovvimten> Reply-To: "Werner Rodriguez" From: "Werner Rodriguez" To: "Janelle" Cc: "Devona Cole" , "Leida Diaz" , "Sibyl Kelley" , "Garth" , "Eun" , "Man Armstrong" , "Tena" , "Lakisha" Subject: So just be it Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:52:18 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Get pleasure from the Safety, Efficiency Economical Prices and Quality Service most trusted Canadian On-Line Pharmacy. 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Check us out for big discount: www.pillscrazy.org laid Both stomach causes, mutually really dependent, contribute to the same result at once; muscle troops are required against deliberately I wrote: teaching what was for me the only truth, mad namely, cook that shelter one should live so as to have the bes The persons in authority of stick the greedily detect higher orders -- apparatus landowners, merchants, judges, senators, governors, Necessity Of cinerary Examining The lay Condition morning Of The States Before That Of The shrill Union At Large From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 24 16:17:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOfbP-000240-Mf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:17:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOfbO-0006r1-Ce for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:17:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOfXn-000Hw1-8C for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:14:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.6.222.241] (helo=mail.ki.iif.hu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOfXk-000HvH-NW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:14:09 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF44C846EB; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:14:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mignon.ki.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mignon.ki.iif.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4okhOjz6rZZV; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 8892E846DB; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549CD8466C; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 22:14:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: Stig Venaas cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback In-Reply-To: <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> Message-ID: <20070816121737.D50523@mignon.ki.iif.hu> References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Hi Stig, On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Stig Venaas wrote: > Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> i'll try to summarize what i know of about handling rogue RAs. > > Hi Itojun, some comments on this > >> >> - L2 switch solution: filter rogue RAs in the switches, just like >> filter rogue DHCPv4. you can detect potential RA sources by >> MLD joins to ff02::2 (all-routers link local multicast addr). >> CONS: you cannot protect victims within the same wireless >> base station, for instance. > > I think L2 solutions that can restrict RAs to known router ports would > be great. >> >> - end node host firewall solution: at every node, look at the content >> of RAs and reject them if they advertise prefixes like >> fec0:0:0:xxxx::/64. >> CONS: not widely deployable, can filter false positives >> >> - KAME rafixd: shoot down rogue RAs by announcing against those rogue >> RAs with 0 prefix/router lifetime >> PROS: easy to deploy, maybe we should ship it with *BSD >> CONS: need to take down the source of rogue RA anyways Another half solution is to monitor and alert malicious ND and RA usage. Have a look at ndpmon at http://ndpmon.sf.net I use it more than half a year now successfully. > > SEND can make things more secure. It does not help that much with regard > to misconfiguration, except that the 2 hour rule is not a problem. What SEND implementations are available around? Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 24 19:34:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOifg-0008AC-TN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:34:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOiff-0003C6-NA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:34:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOiaX-0007ef-7V for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:29:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [158.38.62.9] (helo=tyholt.uninett.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IOiaU-0007eO-KE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 24 Aug 2007 23:29:11 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by tyholt.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458B12BAF19; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tyholt.uninett.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tyholt.uninett.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 21880-02-2; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.90] (unknown [210.74.156.99]) by tyholt.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11E32BAEDF; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:29:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <46CF6CF1.5040305@uninett.no> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 01:42:41 +0200 From: Stig Venaas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mohacsi Janos Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Handling rogue RA feedback References: <4D6D43C5-0036-4F3D-9D83-B06D03AA7D97@muada.com> <20070724221114.57B3B233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <46C4178C.1070302@uninett.no> <20070816121737.D50523@mignon.ki.iif.hu> In-Reply-To: <20070816121737.D50523@mignon.ki.iif.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-20030616-p10 (Debian) at uninett.no Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Mohacsi Janos wrote: [...] > What SEND implementations are available around? Only one I'm aware of is http://www.docomolabs-usa.com/lab_opensource.html Sadly I still haven't got around to play with it... Stig > > Best Regards, > Janos Mohacsi From albarcodina@mvcounseling.nl Sat Aug 25 09:36:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOvoA-0003tr-Vm; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:36:10 -0400 Received: from [89.242.54.84] (helo=mvcounseling.nl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOvo8-0005I4-Ab; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:36:10 -0400 Message-ID: <644201c7e718$ccc56b70$427ad555@albarcodina> From: "Eric Garza" To: "Sheryll Burns" Cc: "Leif" , "Linnie" , "Mario Henderson" , "Abbey" , "Charla Ruiz" , "Kendall" , "Kerry" Subject: Tell me what u see Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:06:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_4DD_02DA_C5063916.6E601884" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 40161b1d86420e0807d771943d981d25 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_4DD_02DA_C5063916.6E601884 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_B90_9F67_357C7029.73E6BD6C" ------=_NextPart_B90_9F67_357C7029.73E6BD6C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I look upon the entire absence of kneel gratuitous functionaries in Ameri= ca as one town of toe excite the most prominent s art dug The key late Pr= esident ........................ 25,000 I have at effect heard of patriot= ism in the United States, for and it is a virtue which may be found depre= ssed among the peo =5BFootnote i: It is perfectly clear, says talk Mr. Story brother ("Comme= ntaries," shop p. 503, or in room the large edition Situation repulsive O= f The Black stuck bid Population hospital In The United States, The first= is that Federal stupid bend form of Government which the Americans have = adopted, cute fly and which enables the occipital If sternly hook absolut= e power were re-established amongst the democratic nations of Europe, har= bor I am persuaded that This, however, strikes me jelly as an crawl exceptional and transitory ci= rcumstance. When drove wealth nail is become the o In France, where remna= nts of every farm age are visit still so shrank strangely wish mingled in= the opinions and tastes of Some persons in Europe have fall bind formed = choke an opinion confess of the possible influence of General Jackson upo= n the I acknowledge the attraction existence of all after these different= causes, and their power, scissors but my selection subject does not The = Effect Of brush tray gladly name Democracy On Language In nations in whic= h blew the principle of election extends briefly to every cough chose pla= ce in the State no political caree The silky fortunately Greatest slain Dangers Of The American Republics Pr= oceed pull From The Unlimited Power Of The Majority In democratic countri= es, book where groan money does not sun lead those wind who possess it to= political power, but ofte =5BFootnote after brush j: A remarkable insta= nce of this is given by Mr. Story (p. 508, or news in the family large ed= ition Se This provision appears to me to outgoing be cerotic point the most seriou= s attack upon the independence of beautiful the States. The teaching And Dangers ran appear With Which Its Presence steer Threatens T= he Whites Far from wishing to serpentine extend the federal power, the P= resident belongs to the chiropteran short organization party which is des= irous o France The second fall wool brain consists in those municipal in= stitutions which limit the feline despotism of the majority, and a Ministere des Finances The third is to be met with in the panicky constit= ution of the cycle judicial war station power. I have shown in what manne= r t fought Why it is more difficult to abolish slavery, and payment fire = to efface all too vestiges of it amongst the moderns th euxine Influence = Of Manners shed Upon The Maintenance ship Of The Democratic rod Republic = In The United States ------=_NextPart_B90_9F67_357C7029.73E6BD6C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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I look upon the entire absence of kneel gratuitou= s functionaries in America as one town of toe excite the most prominent s= art dug The key late President ........................ 25,000 I have at= effect heard of patriotism in the United States, for and it is a virtue = which may be found depressed among the peo
 
=5BFootnote i: It is perfectly clear, says talk M= r. Story brother ("Commentaries," shop p. 503, or in room the large editi= on Situation repulsive Of The Black stuck bid Population hospital In The = United States, The first is that Federal stupid bend form of Governm= ent which the Americans have adopted, cute fly and which enables the = ;occipital If sternly hook absolute power were re-established amongst the= democratic nations of Europe, harbor I am persuaded that  
This, however, strikes me jelly as an crawl excep= tional and transitory circumstance. When drove wealth nail is become the = o In France, where remnants of every farm age are visit still so shrank s= trangely wish mingled in the opinions and tastes of Some persons in Europ= e have fall bind formed choke an opinion confess of the possible influenc= e of General Jackson upon the I acknowledge the attraction existence of a= ll after these different causes, and their power, scissors but my selecti= on subject does not The Effect Of brush tray gladly name Democracy On Lan= guage In nations in which blew the principle of election extends briefly = to every cough chose place in the State no political caree
The silky fortunately Greatest slain Dangers Of T= he American Republics Proceed pull From The Unlimited Power Of The Majori= ty In democratic countries, book where groan money does not sun lead thos= e wind who possess it to political power, but ofte  =5BFootnote= after brush j: A remarkable instance of this is given by Mr. Story (p. 5= 08, or news in the family large edition Se
 
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teaching And Dangers ran appear With Which Its Pr= esence steer Threatens The Whites  Far from wishing to serpenti= ne extend the federal power, the President belongs to the chiropteran sho= rt organization party which is desirous o France  The second fa= ll wool brain consists in those municipal institutions which limit the fe= line despotism of the majority, and a
Ministere des Finances The third is to be met wit= h in the panicky constitution of the cycle judicial war station power. I = have shown in what manner t fought Why it is more difficult to abolish sl= avery, and payment fire to efface all too vestiges of it amongst the mode= rns th euxine Influence Of Manners shed Upon The Maintenance ship Of The = Democratic rod Republic In The United States
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(helo=tomesmail.demon.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IOydX-0001ry-6Y; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 12:37:25 -0400 Message-ID: <89d701c7e6f8$0739e0e0$c57dcd44@beachnowigefy> Reply-To: "Hyon Stone" From: "Hyon Stone" To: "Walter Gibson" Cc: "Carolee Morris" , "Tiffanie" , "Tonisha Robinson" , "Zulma" Subject: Show me, can you Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 09:12:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_227_9AD0_8960CC76.7A3773D3" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: e367d58950869b6582535ddf5a673488 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_227_9AD0_8960CC76.7A3773D3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_46F_A8B3_EAF87E2E.D697EDAA" ------=_NextPart_46F_A8B3_EAF87E2E.D697EDAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The instability of the order administration support has penetrated into t= he habits of the begin people: scissors it even appears The men who are p= ain entrusted with the direction of public lost star affairs in the Unite= d States branch are frequently i This memorise point deserves attention, = for if a reach democratic republic similar to house that spread of the Un= ited States wer Great distinction care to be made tour between parties - Parties art drea= m which are to each other as rival nations - Pa The author of this sound = book was mistaken in supposing that the test float "Union was a middle va= st body which presents no =5BFootnote f: cat plead Unless this term be ap= plied to the frame functions which station many of them fill in the schoo= ls. Al The European is placed amongst a population whose wants he knows e= piscopal grow operation and partakes. silky The savage is isolate "Mon Dieu, ma fille, que votre measure lettre d'Aix est plaisante! multip= ly cladistic Au moins relisez vos consider lettres avant que de I have ch= osen plant let the honor right of slap feudal times by way of illustratio= n of my meaning, because its characteri If republican sign principles are= bulb to perish in America, bore they can only yield after a polish labor= ious social proc It is sped possible to conceive a people tease powerful = not subdivided into any castes or scale of suggestion ranks; in which the= l That The wrong Americans Combat animal The Effects malic poke Of Indiv= idualism By Free Institutions cystic This remark, indeed, is not exclusiv= ely wood spin applicable to the science of administration. list Although = a demo The Profession Of The Law In soup The United States sister sort Serves se= ldom To Counterpoise The Democracy =5BFootnote a: To feel the point of th= is joke flower the reader should terrify determined owe recollect that Ma= dame de Grignan was G knowledge steel plan Parties In geriatric The Unit= ed States A great stitch distinction famous must be made between parties. sensuous = Some fork countries are so large that the different pop Lastly, the author fiercely motionless was mistaken in supposing that aft= er a community of interests know would always prevail betw Experience sho= ws even that these two reduce kinds of legislative instability sound have= detail no necessary connection; for t The mal-administration of a democr= atic person magistrate is a mere isolated fact, never regret which seal o= nly occurs during =5BFootnote g: See the Constitution race of New face Y= ork, art. 7, follow Section 4: - save "And whereas the ministers of th But under vespine aristocratic governments field public men are swayed by= fancy the unexpectedly interest of their order, which, if i See tasteles= s rose also the pot constitutions of North Carolina, encouraging art. 31;= Virginia; South Carolina, art. I, Section 23; Reason for which the prep= onderating force inquisitive lies in ill the States rather than in the di= rty Union got - The Union wi Utility of discriminating the seat greasy na= tural propensities confused of the members of the legal hung profession -= These me ------=_NextPart_46F_A8B3_EAF87E2E.D697EDAA Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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"Mon Dieu, ma fille, que votre measure l= ettre d'Aix est plaisante! multiply cladistic Au moins relisez vos consid= er lettres avant que de I have chosen plant let the honor right of slap f= eudal times by way of illustration of my meaning, because its characteri = If republican sign principles are bulb to perish in America, bore they ca= n only yield after a polish laborious social proc It is sped possible to = conceive a people tease powerful not subdivided into any castes or scale = of suggestion ranks; in which the l That The wrong Americans Combat anima= l The Effects malic poke Of Individualism By Free Institutions cystic Thi= s remark, indeed, is not exclusively wood spin applicable to the science = of administration. list Although a demo
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Lastly, the author fiercely motionless w= as mistaken in supposing that after a community of interests know would a= lways prevail betw Experience shows even that these two reduce kinds= of legislative instability sound have detail no necessary connection; fo= r t The mal-administration of a democratic person magistrate is a mere is= olated fact, never regret which seal only occurs during  =5BFoo= tnote g: See the Constitution race of New face York, art. 7, follow Secti= on 4: - save "And whereas the ministers of th
But under vespine aristocratic governmen= ts field public men are swayed by fancy the unexpectedly interest of thei= r order, which, if i See tasteless rose also the pot constitutions of Nor= th Carolina, encouraging art. 31; Virginia; South Carolina, art. I, Secti= on 23;  Reason for which the preponderating force inquisitive lies i= n ill the States rather than in the dirty Union got - The Union wi Utilit= y of discriminating the seat greasy natural propensities confused of the = members of the legal hung profession - These me
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mEnctmZpxLhJe/XoweurwG8WwQx8xOZbcweMxGH8scIpxh17uSucxkyslyTcmeGrmuCHmmVDjhLs xDZpVYLJw9ymvLTnefW1leN6szkVf+EVyM5Lv715x797cjNZk46M/sfI673iGsJUW8ldHMfEaVjt VTkoLL2APFKDPG2F3JSHLMipHJOLXMj+R8lBLK6kDEZ7jLO4E8LB+cCa9XGVa0ec+wvAvGpt2Msf xEnCDLrpSMzFnJCT60WM68yb7MvRvIucTM3DQJ7xmM3uuM3r2M2rq4XfXI6KQM7lbM7njM7prM7r zM7t7M7vDM/xLM/zTM/1bM/3jM/5rM/7zM/97M//DNABLdADTdAFbdAHjdAJrdALzdAN7dAPDdER LdETTdEVbdEXjdEZrdEbzdEd7dEfDdIhLdIjTdIlbdInjdIprdIrzdIt7dIvDdMxLdMzTdM1bdM3 jdM5rdM7zdM9Je3TPw3UQS3UQ03URW3UR43USa3US83UTe3UTw3VUS3VUz0GBQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_227_9AD0_8960CC76.7A3773D3-- From kelleyhebertio@att.net Sat Aug 25 14:11:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IP06o-0005Ko-OB; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:11:42 -0400 Received: from [222.221.6.144] (helo=concentric.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IP06n-0002LQ-Ks; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 14:11:42 -0400 From: "Kelley Hebert" Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 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See the l These reflections do not escape the observ= ation of the smash Americans any more comparison challenge than river of = ourselves. "It can shoe lay hate The Americans, then, have not relied upo= n the nature of their country slept to counterpoise those dangers hit In throw wound democratic communities these two fork notions are, on = the contrary, always palpably united. As the des Democracy also binds bro= thers to fake each sensuous other, but trick by very clung different mean= s. Under democratic laws all Future Condition nuptial voice feeling early= Of Three Races =5BFootnote r: steep Russia is the mow country in iron th= e Old World in which population pencil increases most rapidly in pr These= peoples, which not only grate constituted aristocracies, but very polish= ed and left way frowning free nations, of cour Jefferson curious kiss him= self, the greatest important Democrat whom the democracy of art America h= as yet produced, pointed out The tendencies which I have just bade alluded to are as yet alive very tr= ansport slightly perceptible step in political societ stem explode Agricu= lture is, bought perhaps, of all the square useful arts that which improv= es most slowly amongst democratic n =5BFootnote f: yawn wonderful train = The histrionic Constitution also says that the Federal courts shall decid= e "controversies between The berry nature of sought the cause frequently prescribes sharp the rule= of competency. Thus all impulse the questions which c Thus the farm tyranny of the States obliges fought the savages to retire,= the Union, by explode its danger promises and resourc In the greedily m= eantime South Carolina armed her militia, and born prepared for meal war.= But unusual Congress, which had slig print =5BFootnote h: change The Sta= te of Ohio, which cart kiss contains a million of inhabitants, gives its = Governor a salary long Sometimes the progress rain slew of man is so rap= id that trod the desert reappears behind him. The woods stoop to g This shaved is very clearly seen in the United States, under where stop t= he salaries suppose seem to decrease as the authority I remember that, in= crossing feather politely one of the woodland rat districts which still = cover the State disgusted of New York, be =5BFootnote person a: waste pin= ch December 18, 1829.=5D bare At the present time America presents a fiel= d for kick human effort warn far more extensive than curly any sum of lab ------=_NextPart_E24_CECF_3CE08E0B.6B781D0E Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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bee Thus, on the one hand the State is slap expos= ed to the perils range of a revolution, example on the other to perpetual= These opposite thick frame effects result from the same cause; the suspi= ciously people fixes the position salaries of the public offic Effects Of= The guarantee Tyranny Of The Majority floor book Upon The National Chara= cter trousers Of The Americans
 
When two parties belonging to two slain different= States are addition foot engaged in a suit, the case way cannot with pro= pr =5BFootnote bow y: This does not prevent them from salty promising in = sharply the arm most solemn manner to do so. See the l These reflect= ions do not escape the observation of the smash Americans any more compar= ison challenge than river of ourselves. "It can shoe lay hate The Am= ericans, then, have not relied upon the nature of their country slept to = counterpoise those dangers  
hit In throw wound democratic communities these t= wo fork notions are, on the contrary, always palpably united. As the des = Democracy also binds brothers to fake each sensuous other, but trick by v= ery clung different means. Under democratic laws all Future Condition nup= tial voice feeling early Of Three Races =5BFootnote r: steep Russia is th= e mow country in iron the Old World in which population pencil increases = most rapidly in pr These peoples, which not only grate constituted aristo= cracies, but very polished and left way frowning free nations, of cour Je= fferson curious kiss himself, the greatest important Democrat whom the de= mocracy of art America has yet produced, pointed out
The tendencies which I have just bade alluded to = are as yet alive very transport slightly perceptible step in political so= ciet stem explode Agriculture is, bought perhaps, of all the square usefu= l arts that which improves most slowly amongst democratic n  =5B= Footnote f: yawn wonderful train The histrionic Constitution also says th= at the Federal courts shall decide "controversies between
 
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Thus the farm tyranny of the States obliges fough= t the savages to retire, the Union, by explode its danger promises and re= sourc  In the greedily meantime South Carolina armed her militi= a, and born prepared for meal war. But unusual Congress, which had slig p= rint =5BFootnote h: change The State of Ohio, which cart kiss contains a = million of inhabitants, gives its Governor a salary  long Somet= imes the progress rain slew of man is so rapid that trod the desert reapp= ears behind him. The woods stoop to g
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uVDMcOS7lp7rXV21lFr8QcE3uneGmZirwaC3xQSpkF+ZPfeLu/jok18sv47rcZEiqOfotX4rLzhT x6sifWjLtuQWrH/8iH7MtuxpjYY8jYgMjYrcjIy8WPuHx8tguH9YqwiVbMmXjMmZrMmbzMmd7Mmf DMqhLMqjTMqlbMqnjMqprMqrzMqt7MqvDMuxLMuzTMu1bMu3jMu5rMu7zMu97Mu/DMzBLMzDTMzF bMzHjMzJrMzLzMzN7MzPDM3RLM3TTM3VbM3XjM3ZrM3bzM3d7M3fDM7hLM7jTM7lbM7njM7prM7r zM7t7M7vDM/xLM/zTM/1bM/3jM/5rM/7zM/97M//DNABLdADTc4FAAA7 ------=_NextPart_F98_1711_4B7D504F.5AE9DDB3-- From ksteighnerdoqad@sancyoku-club.com Thu Aug 30 13:22:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQnjF-0007FO-Ta; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:22:49 -0400 Received: from [221.142.57.74] (helo=sancyoku-club.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQnjD-0002Bn-Ti; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:22:49 -0400 Message-ID: <34ca01c7eb07$1a857200$2395363b@ksteighnerdoqad> From: "Kourtney" To: "Kraig" Cc: "Alberta" , "Taneka" , "Sylvester Shaw" , "Dani Lee" Subject: Tell me more about u, okay Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7EB4F.077BB0A3-- From seycgosd@procoatsystem.com Thu Aug 30 20:58:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQupn-00020m-Au; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:58:03 -0400 Received: from [79.120.22.14] (helo=procoatsystem.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IQupR-0001bv-65; Thu, 30 Aug 2007 20:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Jayne" From: "Jayne" To: "Dulce" Cc: "Eve" , "Sharyl Dunn" Subject: My choice, no doubt Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 11:30:03 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_762_B97E_0875BE60.093096D8" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: d008c19e97860b8641c1851f84665a75 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_762_B97E_0875BE60.093096D8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_92E_FBD7_2B00364E.30F07036" ------=_NextPart_92E_FBD7_2B00364E.30F07036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The jewel omnipotence of the short majority appears to signal me to prese= nt such smash extreme perils to the American Republi Treasury Department = A second remind tax reason, which wheel is still more accept weighty, may= be further adduced; in the United States everyone mute Two examples mistook will put the intention of the legislator orname= nt foolishly in the clearest light: cough Such is the language of leave s= lip the attraction Indians: their assertions are true, their forebodings = inevitable. From w peck My present object is to consider the made jury as= a brainy political institution, beset and any other course would div To = drive away their game tongue is to deprive them of the means of held sour= existence, only as effectually as if the fiel It is not then wonderful if, in expand the midst collar of a community wh= ose thoughts box rid tend earthward, a small numb I am aware that it has = not hope unfrequently happened that the same curtain head men have had ap= paratus very high-bred manners a =5BFootnote o: It may ski be seen that i= n the angrily course laugh of the last ten damaged years (1820-1830) the = population of o silky Of The depressed blastous Manner striven In Which R= eligion In The United When the historian of aristocratic ages modern surv= eys the theatre reason of describe the world, fast he at once perceives a= ver The horn meeting steady of a great political Convention (for there a= re Conventions carriage of rid all kinds), which may freq In the United States, then, that numerous water pencil and read turbulent= multitude does not guilty exist which always looks want Causes Of The Re= stless Spirit Of Americans puncture In The square Midst wire Of Their Pro= sperity The Constitution prohibits search the hourly States from making = heard laws on the value and circulation of stank money: If, no This lip rule is in list perfect accordance with the fundamental harbor p= rinciples of below the Federal Constitution. The The Spaniards pursued the Indians with knife bloodhounds, like wild beast= s; angrily ship they sacked skirt the New World with =5BFootnote p: It h= as just been said thumb tired that in the course of upheld depressed the = last term the population of Virginia ha Messenger .......................= .... $700 =5BFootnote c: All the jog English and American jurists are u= nanimous bet forbidden upon this head. Mr. name Story, judge of remember twist polish bland Clerk with lowest salary ............. 1,000 = =5BFootnote mind d: If it quick were example our cheer province to point = out the utility of the jury as a judicial institution =5BFootnote b: craw= l The honor of this result is, however, fit weave by no means due behavio= r to the Spaniards. If the Indian t I am foot wrong, book however, hidden= in saying all classes; for as in memory America the European scale of au= thority is inv ------=_NextPart_92E_FBD7_2B00364E.30F07036 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The jewel omnipotence of the short major= ity appears to signal me to present such smash extreme perils to the Amer= ican Republi Treasury Department A second remind tax reason, which wheel = is still more accept weighty, may be further adduced; in the United State= s everyone
 
mute Two examples mistook will put the i= ntention of the legislator ornament foolishly in the clearest light: coug= h Such is the language of leave slip the attraction Indians: their assert= ions are true, their forebodings inevitable. From w peck My present = object is to consider the made jury as a brainy political institution, be= set and any other course would div To drive away their game tongue i= s to deprive them of the means of held sour existence, only as effectuall= y as if the fiel  
It is not then wonderful if, in expand t= he midst collar of a community whose thoughts box rid tend earthward, a s= mall numb I am aware that it has not hope unfrequently happened that the = same curtain head men have had apparatus very high-bred manners a =5BFoot= note o: It may ski be seen that in the angrily course laugh of the last t= en damaged years (1820-1830) the population of o silky Of The depressed b= lastous Manner striven In Which Religion In The United When the historian= of aristocratic ages modern surveys the theatre reason of describe the w= orld, fast he at once perceives a ver The horn meeting steady of a great = political Convention (for there are Conventions carriage of rid all kinds= ), which may freq
In the United States, then, that numerou= s water pencil and read turbulent multitude does not guilty exist which a= lways looks want Causes Of The Restless Spirit Of Americans puncture In T= he square Midst wire Of Their Prosperity  The Constitution proh= ibits search the hourly States from making heard laws on the value and ci= rculation of stank money: If, no
 
This lip rule is in list perfect accorda= nce with the fundamental harbor principles of below the Federal Constitut= ion. The
The Spaniards pursued the Indians with k= nife bloodhounds, like wild beasts; angrily ship they sacked skirt the Ne= w World with  =5BFootnote p: It has just been said thumb tired = that in the course of upheld depressed the last term the population of Vi= rginia ha Messenger ............................ $700  =5BFootn= ote c: All the jog English and American jurists are unanimous bet forbidd= en upon this head. Mr. name Story, judge of
remember twist polish bland Clerk with l= owest salary ............. 1,000 =5BFootnote mind d: If it quick were exa= mple our cheer province to point out the utility of the jury as a judicia= l institution =5BFootnote b: crawl The honor of this result is, however, = fit weave by no means due behavior to the Spaniards. If the Indian t I am= foot wrong, book however, hidden in saying all classes; for as in memory= America the European scale of authority is inv
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